Is He Withdrawing Or Did She Dump Him

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Here’s a letter from Vivianne – and I think we can all identify with her confusion and situation – and I want to give you another perspective around it:

“Please Rori, I’m in such pain right now and I’ve no one to turn to…I’ve been with my boyfriend for nearly 3 years, he’s 24, I’m 29. He went after me in the beginning, seemed so “in love”… I didn’t care so much for him then… then from the moment we got together, things totally reversed. I fell completely, while he seemed to stop seeing with through rose-colored glasses. Things were VERY difficult in the beginning of our relationship – the courting phase was so incredible, I felt so loved and we felt such harmony, and suddenly when we got together all that seemed to go down the toilet. So things were really difficult, as in, we were CONSTANTLY having ugly, ugly fall outs, I didn’t see him very much (a couple of nights a week) and almost every time we saw each other something bad happened…

After a year, he finally said to me that he thought we weren’t good together, that he missed his freedom, and that although he cared for me so much, he thought we were better apart. This totally shred me to pieces, I couldn’t imagine life without him. I read everything I could find about getting your ex back, did everything they said (stop calling him and initiating any contact, focus on yourself again, don’t let him know how much you miss him and that you’re miserable…) and after a month, he was back telling me he wanted to give it another go.

This is when I realized the power of good information (I’m sure I’d never have been able to get him back on my own); this is also when I found you and you have helped me SO MUCH, Rori! I really wanted to start the relationship again on a good and solid foundation and wanted to learn, so I delved into your blog, newsletters and programs, and things really shifted. Unfortunately, although I know by personal experience that what you teach actually totally works, I wasn’t always able to apply it in my life. I slipped much more often than I’d have liked.

So things did get better with my boyfriend, but not quite yet to a state where I could feel he wanted me as much as I wanted him. No more fall-outs, no more of the constant horrible drama, more and more of feeling at ease, relaxed and good together, even sometimes hinting about our future together (which NEVER happened in the beginning of our relationship)… but still living in separate apartments and no real plans or even dreaming together of our future, buying a house, having a family and all the good stuff… We spent more and more time together though, seeing each other practically every night.

I know you said never to have “the talk” when you’re in an emotional pit… but I did that, not only once, but several times. (yes, I’m a bad pupil…)
Well, I did it again yesterday night and it backfired so bad.
I basically told him he needed to decide whether he really wanted to be with me or not, because I was sensing his ambivalence and it was making me unhappy, and that I thought I deserved to be with someone who thought I was the most precious thing and never wanted to let me go. He finally told me that he had been thinking about this a lot lately and that he didn’t think he could give me what I needed. That although he was definitely in love with me, he felt my unhappiness, and he also felt stifled by our relationship, felt he couldn’t be himself and I couldn’t accept him as he is. He cried at the thought of having to let me go, told me he couldn’t imagine his life without me, but that maybe something better was ahead for each of us, and that if it didn’t feel right, it probably wasn’t right.

This happened so fast – yesterday morning we were casual and laughing together and a few hours later, he tells me we’re probably better off apart.
We woke up this morning both feeling totally crappy, I could see that he had decided this was the end and that the thought was making him miserable. We talked some more and I told him I didn’t want to let him go, that I thought if he still loves me then we should try and work it out. I could see that I didn’t have to push very far for him to change his mind, and I did that. He finally left my apartment for work saying he didn’t feel capable of ending things now, and that we should talk more later and decide what to do.
I know that if I had said “you’re right, we’re no good together” he would have walked out for good.
The truth is that I am terrified of losing him. In my deepest core I feel he’s probably right, that things are not clicking like they should, that it shouldn’t be so difficult, that I’m frustrated that its been 3 years and still no plans for the future. But I also love him so much and I know he loves me… also, he’s an incredibly good guy, loving, caring, always ok to try and work things out, I’d completely bet my life that he would NEVER cheat on me or lie to me, he has never behaved badly toward me – the only thing he does (or doesn’t do) that is making me suffer, is that he doesn’t seem to be totally in love and willing to do anything to be with me.

I don’t know what is going to happen next. I can’t picture my life without him. If he does leave me, I know I’m going to feel pretty much suicidal. (I’ll hang on but I KNOW I’ll be in horrible, horrible pain…)
I want to turn things around again but am I just holding on to someone who doesn’t want me? Or can my dream of love with my dream man still happen?
Please Rori, give me a hint. I’m pleading right now because I’m don’t know how I’ll get through this without any support.
Thank you so much for what you do, you are a god-sent. Vivianne.”

Here’s my answer:

V, I want to wrap my arms around you and call you honey…

I’m so sorry for your pain…and I want to be very, very tough so you can see what’s real here.

You are looking at all this from a completely unreal, untruthful place, and I need to up-end that perspective.

1. You broke up with him, he didn’t break up with you.

You gave him an ultimatum and he was unsure.

You gave him no choice, and so you made this decision, not him.

He’d be happy to just keep “dating” you until he didn’t feel anything for you anymore – and that isn’t where he’s at – he’s still feeling attraction for you, and all the work you’ve done has made this easier for him to feel attracted to you.

2. You have options you haven’t even considered: Circular Dating. Non-exclusivity.

3. If you can’t handle the open-ended-ness of this – he’s VERY young, and this is all he’s capable of right now – then you need to move on.

If what you want NOW is marriage and family – then lose this one and get out there!!!

The faster you move on, the faster you’ll get what you want.

4. And, as you move on – over time – that’s also your best bet to get this man. BUT IT MAY TAKE TIME!!

5. The decision and the power here is YOURS.

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1Brenda on July 22, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    Kenny tried the ultimatum thing with me a few times. I felt controlled, so I just backed off, because I don’t like to feel controlled. I just said no, if he was pushing for a commitment or pushing to get me to do anything. Ultimatums don’t work. They create false pressure. He doesn’t do that anymore with me. I told him you will get much further ahead with me using softness and gentleness.

    Then I think of my Mom’s ultimatum. After 25 years of marriage, she told my Dad either get counseling or get out. He got out. She didn’t think he would. She cried and cried. I believe it needed to happen, though, because it was an unhealthy relationship.

    So I guess the moral of the story is don’t make an ultimatum unless you are willing to handle either possible outcome.

    I like circular dating far better! 🙂

  2.  #2Renee on July 22, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    Brenda — I agree with you about ultimatums — they don’t work! If I were with a guy who wanted to get more serious than I did, I would feel totally controlled if he said it was be exclusive with him or lose him. I don’t respond well to pressure, so I suspect I’d choose “lose him” over the other option.

    That must have been really hard on your mother…just curious, though…what do you think her other options were, if he was truly very disfunctional?

  3.  #3Brenda on July 22, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    My Mom should have left the relationship about 25 years earlier. She stayed in it for the sake of her children. She tried to make it work. She really loved him, but he was very emotionally abusive and controlling. On their wedding night, he changed. He had courted her very nobly for 3.5 years. The night they married, he became controlling and nasty.

    Years later, in counseling, he told the counselor, “When we married, the two became one, and I’m the one!” **gag!!**

    She was kind in giving him the ultimatum. She should have just left. But he had her convinced for years that if she left him, she would never see her kids again. So she stayed for me and my two brothers. I wish she hadn’t. She never did reclaim her identity. I love her so much!

  4.  #4Renee on July 22, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Brenda — that’s so sad! Is your mother still with us?

  5.  #5Brenda on July 22, 2010 at 6:23 pm


    Yes, she’s 78, in a wheelchair and on oxygen, and living in a nursing home nearby. I see her every week once or twice and call her every day.

  6.  #6Candy on July 22, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    I can feel the frustration of Vivianne. The roller coaster is not a good feeling.
    Brenda, wonder if you remember you responded to one of my previous posts here a couple of months ago. That time I said I was always on egg shell and things were not working well. I am here again to vent out as well as letting you know the rest of the story.

    So, I practised the leaning back thing. I felt relaxed and just enjoyed the time with him though at the back of the mind I thought everything was fine. He came forward a bit. He said I love you everyday on phone or when we part.

    All seemed well. Then one day, he asked me to take his iphone to the repair shop because mine is not working too and I told him I will visit the customer centre which close to where I live but not his. I didn’t do anything for a few days because I trusted him. Then one night, I had the gut feeling to have a look into it – I thought I need to switch it on and tell the customer service people about the phone’s problem anyway. He told me he used the same password in most cases. So I tried and the password was right. Before this, I had never looked into his phone nor computer because I do not like even my mom to go through my desk so I don’t do it to other people.

    You know what I found? Besides me, he has not stopped talking to multiple women, some met online, some from work, some from bar. From what I get from the phone, he is regularly seeing me and another woman, involving the ‘L’ word too. I have my stuff in his place, so he can only go to the other woman’s place. The third one is not in town but seems to have been there earlier than me.
    The common theme is observed is that all the women are quite desparate for care, attention and love. I know his trick now. He pretend to give to care and attention to see how much you devote to him. I saw at least 4 women’s long long letters sent to him via e-mail or facebook message, all saying things like oh can I buy you drink? when can we meet up? I know a lot of people are desparate to buy you dinner, but can I have the honor this time? Obviously, he is good at making women think that he is a good gentle man and loyal or something. But as he spreads himself so thin, I also read stuff like oh I can’t get in touch with you for a week now, what’s wrong? Or I miss you, or if you can’t come, you have to tell me in advance so that I don’t wait for you like an idiot. Women send him pictures.

    My conclusion is he is definitely rotten to the core. I read about Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and his behaviour matches most of the description. He craves for excessive admiration from the opposite sex. He may pretend but genuinely not respecting the feeling of people who care about him.

    My question is that:
    1. Since I met him first from an online site, Plenty of Fish, I am concerned are online sites actually a good place to meet men? I chose to see him because he behaved so properly compared to other guys. He is actually quite fat, not like a player, just look cute and unharmful. But turn out that he is a scam, not for money, but for affection, which is worse. Btw, he writes in his profile that he is looking for someone not currently in relationship. I get it now, he is looking for lonely hearts as prey.

    2. His facebook page only has his own photos and neutral stuff but a lot of female friends and some make special / flirtatious comments. He did run through his friend list in front of me telling me who is who. Turn out that some people he referred to as acquaintance from work project is someone he hooked up through another dating site. Some sounds ‘unthreatening’ female colleagues also send him long affectionate e-mails etc. My question is how do we deal with facebook and Myspace etc social networking site when we meet new men?

    3. There had been a lot of red flags, e.g. he guards his phone closely when I am around, receiving texts and calls often. He didn’t answer some saying that he does not want it to interrupt our time spending together. I feel regret that I did not take serious look into it but at the beginning, I just did not want to argue or make atmosphere bad by brining things up and thought that may be I should give him the benefit of doubt. How should I do better next time? Run whenever there is red flag? I imagine even using ‘feeling expression’ it may still ruin things sometimes. And if a man want to deceit you, he can say and or whatever he can to do it.

    4. What to do if he is also circular dating?

    It all looks so fake now. I feel so disgusted. The first response he made when I confronted with him is that I didn’t. I said I know everything. The next thing he uttered was that he shouldn’t have asked me to take his phone! From that I know he is an incurable NPD.

    Are there still available good men out there? I feel frustrated. Why is it so difficult? Thanks God I haven’t wasted too much time. It was a year. And that I learn more about myself through the process.

  7.  #7Tk on July 22, 2010 at 11:04 pm

    Sometimes i think ultimatums are our honest self.. It is being the most honest we can be with ourselves and others it is how you really feel… We just get so scared when we dont hear what we want to hear… I think just make sure you r ready for both responses..

  8.  #8mary on July 22, 2010 at 11:07 pm

    Hello Vivianne,

    I was just transfixed while I was reading your story. I feel so sad that you’re in so much pain.

    Rori said a lot in her reply to you, even if it didn’t feel like it. If you go through the archives and read all of the posts and some of the comments, you’ll see that she was talking in shorthand. Every one of her points is something she has written about in detail, so if you’re interested, you can find some real help here, all by yourself. Just put on your reading glasses and get into a comfortable position, because she and everyone on the blog have already been here for you.

    If I were you, I’d feel really frustrated in your position, too. But once you start getting out there and dating more than one guy, you’ll see that it’s a more powerful and easy place to be.

    I wish you well.

  9.  #9mary on July 22, 2010 at 11:09 pm

    I think that when you give ultimatums, you give your power away. You put it right into the hands of the receiver of the ultimatum.

    I try never to let another person decide what I’m going to do. I really want to reserve the right to make whatever decision I want to make, and to change my mind at the very last minute if I need to.

  10.  #10mary on July 22, 2010 at 11:11 pm

    But it’s so cool that you experienced so much love from your Mom, Brenda.


  11.  #11mary on July 23, 2010 at 1:34 am

    Wow, Candy.

    I’m impressed. You just found this out and are ready to move on.

    That’s really fast. That’s really being real. I’m sad for your pain but I admire your guts.


  12.  #12mary on July 23, 2010 at 1:36 am


  13.  #13mary on July 23, 2010 at 1:36 am


  14.  #14Rosalie on July 23, 2010 at 2:07 am

    @Candy: My heart goes out for you and sending you my hugs… Please keep your calmness, you will need it here. My toxic man also suffers from NPD (or: he enjoys NPD, and I suffer…) so I was dealing with EXACTLY the same stuff…

    This guy is a manwhore btw. The worst of all kinds… Phew! I hope the Sirens here will help you.

  15.  #15Denise on July 23, 2010 at 4:43 am

    @Candy, so sorry for all this negative drama and pain in your life right now. Things will get better.

    People come into our lives for reasons. It takes time to know that that reason is/was. Perhaps he was there to teach you all kinds of things in one man, vs. learning all those things with multiple men?

    The good news is that you ‘see’ a lot, and you recognize the red flags. In reality, this is a really good, real time life situation that you can continue to learn from as you continue on your path of growth.

    Be patient with yourself, get and read and reread and listen to Rori’s materials. Search out other sources of information. What feels good for you to know you’re taking action on yourself so something like this doesn’t happen again.

    Yes, this man is obviously of very low character. But he’s just being who he is and we have no control over another human being, NONE. So the key is to turn this around so you are the DIVA. The goal is to figure out if a man is worthy of your time, attention and energy–within 30 seconds of meeting him. Believe me, it can be done.

  16.  #16Daria on July 23, 2010 at 4:56 am

    I feel a lil sad when I read – waht seems to be very many times now – on the blog about ladies upset with men they’re dating saying that “the men have NPD.”

    I feel weird and kind of alone, and kind of confused and upset reading that.

    These men don’t necessarily have NPD – I know lots of men who don’t tell the women they date that they’re dating other women – WHY WOULD THEY???!!!!

    If a man is not in LOVE, totally wanting to commit, then he will always be ready to date other women.

    I have many guy friends and they all date multiple women. This is how men do things, I feel love for them, I feel defensive of them.

    They don’t have NPD! They’re most likely afraid of “drama” if they were to tell the girl she’s in an imaginary relationship.

    It feels bad to be lied to, and yet many men do it because women fall in the imaginary relationship trap and assume commitment, and they don’t want the woman to be upset…

    When a woman Circular Dating, and focusing on her… she’s not concerned about checking a man’s phone – an invasion of privacy which a man will label PSYCHO just like women label men NPD … tho many WOMEN do this PSYCHO act — break someone’s trust and go behind their back – this is ALSO INAUTHENTIC. It’s ALSO LYING. And it’s NOT the way to inspire a man.

    I don’t want to check a man’s phone. When I feel doubt, I want to let him know I’m feeling insecure, and I don’t feel comfortable to date a man dating multiple women at this point… what does he think?

  17.  #17Renee on July 23, 2010 at 7:12 am

    Candy — I can so relate to what you’re going through and I feel your pain, confusion, rejection and anger. I had a similar experience with a guy and the thing that took me by surprise was the he, like your guy, wasn’t particularly good looking or rich or anything like that, but yet he still managed to be a serious player — leading me and other women to believe we were the only ones and when confronted, would just say that he never made any promises to me and he was just scared of getting hurt…yah, righ! He actually got kicked off eharmony for jerking women around, which made me feel vindicated. He was sooooo mad when he got kicked off because they send an email to all your open matches telling them that this person has been kicked off the site and that if you continue contact with him, it’s at your own risk, lol. But I digress…

    You asked if meeting people online is riskier than other ways, and as a 3-year veteran of online dating, I would say that meeting people online is no riskier than meeting people offline, it’s just different. The big difference is that when you meet someone at the bookstore, you already know whether you feel physical attraction towards them, whereas with online dating, you end up interacting for days or weeks before you meet in person, so you run the risk of investing time with someone you would have immediately ruled out had you met them in person first.

    But the odds of running into someone with NPD or another disorder are no greater online than in person. Anyone can misprepresent themselves, whether in a bar or online. The key is to learn from your experiences, regardless of where you meet them. I suspect that now that you’ve been through this experience with this man, you will see the red flags much more quickly should you run into another man like this.

    I know this has to be painful for you and I hope you’re not letting it damage your self esteem — he’s the one who misled you — you did nothing wrong. The only thing you did is something that I am guilty of, which is letting the one guy you’re sleeping with rank way higher on your priority list than the other guys you’re seeing.

    I don’t know if this is something you’d want to do, but I’ve determined that I’m going to wait much longer before I sleep with someone in the future. Of course, that’s easy to say right now while I sit here sipping my coffee and will be much more difficult when I’m face to face with a man I’m interested in, but I’m really trying to protect myself (like Rori says) while still keeping my heart open. I really admire the fact that she was able to commit to staying celebate until marriage was on the table with one of the guys she was dating was ready to talk marriage with her. That makes a lot of sense, but sounds quite difficult. I’m trying to psych myself up for it though, and perhaps it may be something you would want to try. What do you think?

  18.  #18Lizzie on July 23, 2010 at 7:30 am

    I don’t think clinical narcisism is all that common, I suppose like other types of psychiactric conditions. I was married to one who was clinically assessed and diagnosed. In all the years of my dating, before married and post married – I have not met another one. In all the years of working in workplace coaching/counselling of maybe 500 people a year and about 50% men – I don’t think I have met another one. sure I have met a huge supply of pompous fools and generally strange beings – overall my impression of men are that they are a bunch of lovely creatures, who really want to please someone, like to work and make a difference, like to be treated fairly and in a straight forward way, will trust you until that trust is violated – then it is almost impossible to get it back; they like to kabitz/teese/fool around, will go gaga to please a lady, want to be acceptable and accepted by others, like fixing things that are broken, etc etc.
    I like men.
    What men don’t like – assumptions being made about them, being picked-on, manipulated, controlled,bing distrusted, dis-respected, lied to, being a “project” or someone to “change into someone elses vision of who they should be”, “you should…” messages…and on and on – just like us girls don’t like the same things.

    I like men just the way they are.

    There is someone out there who will love me just the way I am, and I am looking to love someone just the way they are.

    I felt relief and freedom when I finally understood Rori’s philosophy that dating is dating until there is a ring. And, one of my good men friends has coached me that I need to always have 3-dating men on the go as he always has 3 dating women on the go – he said; dating is dating unless there is a ring – and he doesn’t even know Rori.

  19.  #19Denise on July 23, 2010 at 8:22 am

    @Lizzie, nice post, I think you’re right on in regard to how men are and what they don’t like…I too like men, I like their straightforward, simple way of looking at the world.

    Poor character does not make someone a narcissist or have any other true psychological disorder, I agree that these are rare. But it is incumbent about all us smart, attractive, saavy women to BE our best selves so we can look for those who also are their best selves.

  20.  #20Ready on July 23, 2010 at 8:46 am


    Thanks for your comments. I have a different perspective men worry about drama often because they create it.

    They often know that the women they are dating would be upset if they knew the women knew he was dating others. And that if the women knew they were dating others, that they would lose one, if not all of the women. They do it for the control, not because they are entitled.

    In my opinion, healthy Adult people have discussions about where they are at in their dating. That is not making demands, that is expressing what you want, and finding out what the other person wants to make sure that you are aligned.

    Women should never assume a man is more committed than they are, and it is ok to ask in a general sense what a man is looking for. A man should be honest about that, or should not be dating. That allows the woman to make an educated decision. She may not be ok with a man who is dating others.

    It is a woman’s responsibility to ask questions so she is not making assumptions (that can be done in a non-accusatory way). Real men can handle questions, and men who are really interested won’t be put off by having to make a decision. And she should express what she is looking for. That is taking ownership of her part.

    It is the man’s responsibility to tell a woman where he’s at. Not have a sin of ommision that he knows will hurt the other person.

    Most women if told – “I am dating you and other people” know what the means. That is fair and open communication from my perspective.

  21.  #21Renee on July 23, 2010 at 9:37 am

    Daria — I agree that most men enjoy dating multiple women at one time, but it’s when they lie to one (or all) of the women they’re dating about their status and what they want that it becomes a problem.

    It may be difficult, but out of respect for the people you’re dating, I think you should be honest about whether you’re seeing other people (especially if there’s sex involved!), but you’re right — many men are so afraid of upsetting a woman that they’d rather lie to them…that’s not the woman’s fault, though and she shouldn’t feel like she didn’t something wrong because he lied to her.

  22.  #22Renee on July 23, 2010 at 11:09 am

    Renee – my understanding was that Rori did not stay celibate until one of the guys was ready to propose

  23.  #23tinque on July 23, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Okay I need to jump in here. I don’t know if “most” men date multiple women at a time or not, but it has been my experience that quality men, good men, the kind of men most of the women here seek, do not.
    These men, and again this has been my experience of men in the 40 plus, even 30 plus age group, will date a woman one time, and if there is some sort of interest piqued, they will not look elsewhere until and unless the original interest proves not to be what he thought.
    As for the right time to have sex. This is individual. If it feels right, the go for it. Even if the man is not “the one”, you likely will still have a good time, as long as it FEELS right.

  24.  #24Deb on July 23, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Hi ladies,

    I’ve been learning so much from Rori’s book, letters and this blog. I think that I’ve hit on something within myself here, I can *feel* it! I can’t believe how much I’ve disregarded my emotions and how its been wreaking havoc on my love life…

    I’d like to post an email exchange I’ve had with my guy of interest, T. The quick back story is that we started going out 2 weeks before I left for 5 months of study in another country. I made so many of the specific mistakes pointed out by Rori in the beginning that I just have shake my head and laugh!

    Long story short, after several ups and downs, I didn’t hear from him for 2 weeks (I’m leaving out the part with my desperate attempts to contact him!)
    Then I finally get a message:

    T: So I guess we aren’t together or whatever the term for our relationship?

    Deb: Well Travis, I guess you are right. I feel pretty angry about being treated like I’m unimportant and I’m embarrassed that I put up with such treatment for so long. I felt like we were completely disconnected and I don’t want that kind of relationship. I feel happier to have this out of my mind and off of my chest. I am open to perhaps talking about this face to face sometime in the future, but as for now I’ll focus on enjoying the rest of my time here. Pura vida y feliz verano ~

    T (very fast response): Ok. I will respect that. I am for talking face to face. Until then please be safe. Again I wish we had more time together before u left so we both would be more secure in our importance in each other’s life. I’ve been thinking that same way about u. ~ love Travis

    Deb (5 days later): I appreciate you saying that… I’m glad you understand me and it feels better to know what you think. Pura vida y amor ~

    T: I wish u knew how I feel.

    Deb: No, not this time… now I’m angry about all of this and I don’t want to give you my energy and emotions when I feel afraid that my heart will just be strung along again. I won’t do that to myself. We agreed on a face-to-face conversation and you are not here in front of me. Its up to you when that happens.

    T (fast response): Wow

    Ok Sirens – am I doing this right?? I have really strange feelings right now. I’m almost uncomfortable with the amount of power I feel. Was it wrong to shut him down without hearing his feelings? Part of me feels guilty for coming off as b*tchy… Did I come off as b*itchy or firm here? (I was going for firm). I feel really proud of sticking up for myself. I care less about the outcome now. I was so torn up before but now I could go either way.

    Mostly, I’ve been feeling really good by practicing expressing myself more around guys here. What a relief! I feel like I can finally breathe! I have them all watching my every move, doing little things for me, wanting to be with me. But its hard for me to get beyond this point.

    Any comments would be so greatly appreciated! Thanks for “listening”!

    <3 Deb

  25.  #25Polli on July 23, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    i guess this post is as good as any to tell about a few things that have helped me get over my heartache. I have been silent for awhile but I have spent alot of time on here “learning”. Things were so bad for me I had to do something and i went actively looking for a way out of the pain.
    first of all i “borrowed” this from the note on a co worker’s IM….it is her permanent note….
    i have it in my signature on my home email and every time i write someone i see it and it helps me to remember that is exactly the way it was. he was my priority and i was his option. i hope i never do that again. but i may. you know how it is.
    another thing and this SEEMS silly…i was on Oprah’s website and there was a health website on there and they gave this tip…to write on a piece of “flushable paper” which i am assuming is toilet paper…whatever you want to let go of…a person, a bad situation, a worry…whatever. and then FLUSH it. i put the name of the man who has hurt me so much on it and flushed away. i did it several times over a couple of days. you know, believe it or not, it really helped. ALOT! And the main thing is, I do not DO anything TOWARDS him. (No leaning forward-the best of all the rules i think). No contact other than work related. Period. As a result he has leaned forward a little, but I still have not leaned back and will not. If he makes a little joke I laugh but otherwise, i don’t instigate anything that does not have to do with work. It was kind of hard at first but gets easier every day. the times i was tempted i said to myself, “NO!” it seems i have self respect finally- at least for now. I want to believe I will keep it and i am going to try very hard. I still love him but I just cannot get back on that roller coaster ever.
    also probably the best thing i have done the past few weeks is I asked God to help me get thru the pain. I feel that this has totally happened.
    I am not hurting now. I am happy. If i have a sad memory of something with him i say to myself “that was then and this is now”. That brings it into perspective. and ends dwelling on it. i have ACCEPTED what IS. I leaned back and let go! truly LET HIM GO for all time. I am not doing these things in hopes that he will come back, i am doing these things to get over it. just because I loved him does not mean he was good for me…quite the opposite in fact. it was not the fact that he dumped me for someone else, it was how he treated me after that. Unbelievably hurtful.
    I hope these few things will be a help to someone. I do not consider myself “cured” i am just walking along, towards my new and happier life one step at a time, one day at a time.
    Love you all.

  26.  #26Daria on July 23, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    hmm… i feel a bit weird… i had a man call me and ask me out today, it was for last minute, and i kinda have possible tentative plans of other people wanting to spend time with me – nothing set in stone tho.

    i dont’ really feel attracted to this guy that asked me tho, so at first i was going to say yes, but that felt bad, so i said another day would be better, like im free tomorrow, and that i like advance notice…

    so now we have a plan tomorrow at 4, which actually im starting to feel better about, i did say about a million times that i like a set time, though, cuz it felt weird that hes like… ok we’ll kick it tomorrow, and i already know that im gonna plan right over that, but now he did come up with a time so i feel kinda nice about that

    the other thing is, i’m starting to feel close to this man who’s stepping up who’s house i’ve been spending time at – i desired a man’s house i can relax at and tadah – now i told him i wouldnt feel like a date if i had to meet him at his house tho… so now he’s thinking up a date so he can date me…

    the only thing is he hasn’t kissed me, i feel a lil turned off by that…

    i find him mildly attractive, he’s very nice and generous with me, yesterday i shared with him when i was feeling depressed frustrated and angry with myself and the world about these limiting beliefs about money right now, ick, he remained positive and encouraging, i felt good about that

    then he texted this morning, i texted back then he CALLED!

    so i feel good, he wants to see me when he gets off work today, those were my tentative plans,

    i feel curious about kissing him, and also right now i feel a lil weird ick imagining him in my sex fantasies…

    is he too “submissive’ for me, probably not, he’s nice and steady so far, not too submissive, so he’s probably a good man, i in the past have dated exciting men that i felt kinda insecure about, so i am allowing this good man to grow on me, i am a smidgeon attracted to him

  27.  #27Daria on July 23, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    i feel weird about the comment i wrote earlier on the other thread . I don’t want to come off insensitive.

    i have a habit of… getting triggered when someone says something that to me sounds like a “sob story” or blaming someone else… and my trigger habit is to ignore the direct thing they seem to desire — my pity or support… i feel pulled on and icky and mistrustful and judgemental at that moment… and then my thing to do is find something to point about about “the other side” or etc. I feel icky and sinky sad thinking about this

    i love myself

  28.  #28Daria on July 23, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    an example would be, say i have a friend who decides to complain about her man in a way that triggers me…

    like… man, he always says he wants to see me but he didn’t call me today after work –

    then i feel triggered and judgemental and my brain goes to defending the man – either in my head or to her – umm, yeah girl but he called u like 30 minutes ago and he made plans with you for tonite, he’s not bein a jerk,


    i feel triggered this way sometimes when i listen to men… to defend “the other party” but i hold that and put my attention back on “being there with him” AND my feelings – so that something like that I might just say

    hey.. i feel weird…

    which is kind of what i did on the other thread

    except that i didn’t acknowledge that the woman was feeling pain

    why ?

    i felt manipulated, like pulled to acknowledge… ohhhh feel bad for me. and i feel triggered and icky, and at that point i close off and get cold and superior feeling… and say stuff like… STFU i don’t want to feel sorry for you

    it feels like I need to defend myself from being drained

    I feel confused about this trigger

  29.  #29Daria on July 23, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    and as always, I VOTE FOR ME

  30.  #30Bella on July 23, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Thank you Polli for sharing that quote. I have also put it in a place where I can see it often!
    I still feel paralyzed and traumatized most of the time, and I am struggling to move forward. I recently received Rori’s Heart Connection Toolkit, and I feel calmer and more positive after listening to it, so I feel some hope from that and coming here to these boards that there is a light at the end of this dark tunnel I have allowed myself to get in to.
    I feel so lonely and I don’t have a circle of girlfriends and I so long to have that again, but whenever I try to get involved I can’t make a connection with anyone, much less a man.
    I used to make friends so easily. I have always been a positive, cheerful, happy-go-lucky kind of girl, but now I feel afraid and paranoid to let anyone in. . I feel this man has destroyed me and I don’t even feel like the same person anymore, and it feels very scary. The thought of having any contact with any man makes me feel like throwing up, and I catch myself now looking down, and not making eye contact or speaking to any man unless I have to. I feel rage and hatred towards all men and tense up around them now.
    He was very cruel to me emotionally, and I feel duped and conned. By the time things finally ended between us, he had twisted things around so much that I thought I was the crazy one. I was not allowed to have feelings, and he couldn’t handle the “drama” as he called it. . . .
    I feel like I need to be jumping up and down feeling happy and relieved that I finally “got it” and got rid of him, and that’s what my head tells me, but my heart is still aching and broken and I am trying to find the courage to mend it and find happiness.
    I feel afraid and in disbelief that I could allow myself to get into and STAY in such an unhealthy, degrading, and toxic relationship. THAT scares me more than anything, my self worth was so low that I invited him to beat me down even lower to where I am at now.
    I also am feeling a sense of panic because I am in my forties now, never married, and I feel like I’ve wasted years and years trying to be “good enough” for a man to love me. . . .

  31.  #31Daria on July 23, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    Hugs Bella.

    I’ve been in that place of feeling paranoid. When I was younger I fell in love – my first love – with a man that I’m pretty sure was skitzophrenic.

    We wound up fighting physically almost everyday while also being so in love for my first time.

    When he left – I WAS relieved because my energy had shrunk so small that I felt like I was a tiny dot that was barely alive –

    I jumped for weeks whenever the phone rang. I felt afraid every person would try to rob me and harm me.

    I felt so closed off and paranoid. Slowly though , but not htat slowly, actually reasonably fast… I opened up and warmed up and sunny again.

    I cried by myself on the floor for days after he was gone… my heart DID heal, I did open up again.

    You will too!

    I found Rori’s advice men later, and heartbreaks later – it works, and it feels truthful and soothing to heart and soul.

    I feel glad you have it accessible now.

  32.  #32lm on July 23, 2010 at 4:31 pm


    my recent ex was very tricky – anger, was nicer to social acquaintances than me, little empathy, snarky, didn’t follow through on plans, sent more-than-friendly emails to other women that he told me used ‘as an ego boost’ (i found them when i was checking the weather on his laptop and his hotmail account was open to one of them. i never ever thought to snoop before. never will again. ugh!).

    i felt angrier and angrier at the treatment i was putting up with. i broke up with him a week ago because he refused to go to a counselor with me to address the fighting, sarcasm and put downs. he emailed me yesterday to tell me i was the most important person in his life, that i was wonderful, that losing me would ‘kill him’, could we stay ‘good friends’, could he talk to me?

    i called him (because i just wanted to get it over with) and told him that i don’t want any male friends right now. i still have feelings for him and want a real relationship, but only if we address the deeper problems with a professional.

    i got a little whiney and mushy towards the middle of the conversation (saying i wasn’t sure if he loved me…gah!) but i think i ended it well with the hang up tool (‘i think it would be too painful for me to be friends and see you socially and i can’t have contact with you right now. goodnight.’).

    the only this is…i work with him, so it will be awkward, but i already feel so much freer and happier, i think i can handle it!

    whew!! i feel amazing.

  33.  #33Lizzie on July 23, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    awesome Im – well done!

  34.  #34lm on July 23, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    thanks lizzie! 🙂

  35.  #35Bella on July 23, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    Thank you Daria, your presence and advice on these boards has always felt very comforting to me!

    I know that my eyes and heart are slowly being opened, and I feel grateful for your encouragement.

    I know exactly what you mean about being afraid everyone is going to rob you or hurt you! It feels like I’m losing my mind some days. . . .
    Last week I was convinced that my landlords were spying on me and going through my things!! Crazy stuff!! I am trying to find humor in it and just gently remind myself that someone I trusted completely brainwashed and manipulated me and I am just healing, but this is like nothing I have ever experienced before.

    It feels good to be here and be able to talk about it.

    Im, GOOD FOR YOU! Your situation sounds very familiar, and I feel happy that you are standing up for yourself!!

  36.  #36lm on July 23, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    thanks bella!

    things will get so much better. you will feel amazing and strong!! hold onto yourself through the panic. when i was in a super-bad place about a year ago i was so anxious i couldn’t eat, i lived in my head, and all of rori’s visualisation tools just got…stuck…in my belly where all my pain and tension was.

    but slowly i worked my way up to the place i am now, which is still messy but feels miles higher! hang in there. really really dig down and learn to love yourself…margaret paul’s inner bonding therapy has totally eliminated any anxiety i had. it’s pretty intense, but it’s amazing.

    just my two cents!

  37.  #37Bella on July 23, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Thanks Im, I just signed up for the free 7 day inner bonding course!

  38.  #38Polli on July 23, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Wow Bella,
    were we in love with the same man? Just kidding but there were alot of similarities in our experiences. i am afraid to even think about getting involved with another man right now, too. i don’t trust myself yet and i am afraid to trust them. every man i have ever loved (twice now) has used me, dumped me and hurt me. and the part you said where your guy twisted things so that YOU were the crazy one. This last one did the same. Everything was totally my fault. but that is ok. i was there and i know differently. he can THINK anything he wants to! because he thinks it does not make it true. i think this is how they deal with any guilt they may have. if it is not their fault somehow then they don’t have to feel badly for crushing someone. i think that the healing process just takes time. and like Rori says take the focus off them and put it on ourselves. Use all that energy we spent on them on loving ourselves….and bettering ourselves. eventually we will be able to trust again. it is just shell shock at first. i feel like i am just back from a war where i have seen terrible things…..but every day i feel better and more like myself. yes that is a good way to say it, i am getting myself back. i am the priority now!!

  39.  #39Bella on July 23, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    It could be the same man, I worked with mine too! It was so awful though, I ended up finding another job, and it worked out better for me career wise in the long run.
    You make an interesting point about just coming back from war. It does feel like I imagine Post Traumatic Stress Disorder would feel Everything I “thought” I knew about him was just a lie, and that’s why I KNOW if I had known about Rori and this site I could have avoided most of this pain because he wasn’t stepping up to the plate, but I gave myself to him anyway. Once I was completely in love with him the “real” man appeared and the trauma, manipulation and fear began. Now I feel alone in the war zone realizing the person I loved was really my enemy, and that is heart wrenching.
    I hate him and feel sad for him in the same breath, but this entire experience has taught me that I cannot “fix” him or solve his problems, he is responsible for himself, and I realize I am responsible for my feelings, I can’t expect someone else to make me happy. BIG SIGH, it feels good that I am learning, and sharing here helps so much because I know others out there actually understand how I am feeling.

  40.  #40Jasmine on July 23, 2010 at 10:00 pm


    In posting 16 you talked about men calling women PSYCHO because they look at their phones, etc. If I had written the post about checking his phone when I took it for repair, I would feel blamed and made wrong by your comments. I would feel bad and really hurt. What do you think?

  41.  #41Daria on July 23, 2010 at 10:35 pm

    Jasmine –

    I feel triggered by your comment. I feel defensive. I feel guilty that the poster felt bad, and I looked at my trigger for reacting that way — not really acknowledging her pain but rather looking “at the other side” something I find myself doing when I feel triggered hearing a story.

    As I’ve said I have heard men call women “psycho” for that reason.
    While don’t think personally that it’s completely psycho, as in psychosis- it’s certainly not healthy for a relationship either. I have done it before.

    According to Rori, needing to check a man’s phone is an addictive, unhealthy, and disrespectful (to the man) behavior.

    It’s a betrayal of someone’s trust to invade their privacy without their permission – and as innocent and even “needed” it seems to us when we’re feeling insecure… some men do see it as psycho – and at the same time many men I know are used to it and expect this unhealthy behavior from women.

  42.  #42Daria on July 23, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    oh yeah, earlier today I couldn’t find what thread this was on, so I looked at my trigger of feeling guilty about writing post 16 on a different thread – probabl the front post

    I do not want Candy to feel bad. I feel guilty.

    I feel defensive now. I feel angry.

    I felt angry reading her post, and I felt defensive of men.

    Somehow I feel triggered this way sometimes, when someone complains to me about someone else – I jump to defend the OTHER person. I feel confused about this pattern.

    I feel really angry and hot in my face .


    now I just got off the phone with a man who was trying to pressure me about meeting him right now. well he did ask and i initially said yes, but I don’t really feel like it and I told him that.

    He wanted to see me the past 2 days too and I kind of flaked the first day and the second day I didn’t get back to him.

    I feel angry because he hung up the phone when I got angry… though I didn’t say anything rude to him, just that I don’t want to come out. he keeps saying im being flaky

    i feel mad

    i don’t want to be pressured to come out for dates when it’s convenient for a man, even if I did mess up the timing the first day, I did apologize for it.

    I feel sad now a lil, and my heart is beating fast and I feel angry

  43.  #43Lucy on July 24, 2010 at 12:21 am

    Daria, I feel happy and impressed by all the work you are doing. <3

  44.  #44Lucy on July 24, 2010 at 12:47 am

    I got this email from a guy on pof, and I don’t know why it feels icky and annoying:

    “Why are all the smartest, prettiest, most outgoing, creative and enlightened women so far from me? Your profile is just great. Thanks for brightening my day. Sigh…If you’re ever in Baltimore…”

    Well, maybe, for one thing, I am NOT outgoing. So it kinda feels annoying that he thinks he knows something about me that he doesn’t. Hmm. I just remembered that both my sister and my daughter disagree with me when I say I’m not outgoing. Oh, this feels weird. Maybe I AM outgoing, and he knows me better than I know myself! How could that be?

    I feel flattered by the words he used.

    It feels really cool that I “brightened his day” just by existing. It makes me feel feminine.

    Okay, this is the part that feels icky: “If you’re ever in Baltimore…” If I’m ever in Baltimore … what? Look you up? Hook up? Spend a fun day at the aquarium and then never see each other again?

    And then I looked at his profile. And I LIKED it!!! I feel excited and almost breathless reading his Interests list! Actually, I started reading it and had to stop cuz I was getting so excited, lol! Here’s a sample: good grammar, my old cast iron frying pan, serendipity, driftwood, crooked roads, my mom’s smile, left AND right brain, playing and teaching guitar….

    And a zillion other things listed.

    And he’s cute. And his About Me section is too exciting to read, too.

    Well, gee, if I’m ever in Baltimore, we’ll have a grand ol’ time.

  45.  #45Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:24 am

    Ohhh… i felt happy but a lil turned off that you’re not knocking down my castle wall yet…

  46.  #46Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:25 am

    or… hmm… i like a man that comes and gets what he wants… what do you think Tiger?

  47.  #47Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:27 am

    uhoh… i like you and i feel worried that this is the last time i’ll speak to you… i feel icky when men ask me to come to them… im into macho chivalry and all that tango rose and my lady stuff… what do you think?

  48.  #48Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:27 am

    ohhh i feel so scared. i find you attractive but the message you wrote me feels kinda icky… i feel turned off by men who ask me to come to them… what do you think ?

  49.  #49Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:29 am

    hi… thank you… you are handsome… i feel intrigued

  50.  #50Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:30 am

    hi… wow… you seem cool, i feel a lil bad reading your message about Baltimore… it would feel good to get to know you…

  51.  #51Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:31 am

    thank you i feel flattered… im not a e-mail gal, it would feel fun to talk to you and hear your voice. im at 1AM GODDESS …

  52.  #52Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:33 am

    uhoh, i feel dissed. i dont like it when a guy talks about coming to see him, that’s a turn off. but i think you’re handsome and i feel attracted to you in your picture and your profile. what do you think?

  53.  #53Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:34 am

    sometimes that icky feeling can turn around on a dime. i love how men can fix things. this message felt lame. i don’t want to hear about me coming to you… tell me you’re on your way now, to rescue me… i feel desire

  54.  #54Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:34 am

    i feel mad! I don’t want to visit you in Baltimore! It’d feel great to get to know you though… I felt really amused reading your profile

  55.  #55Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:36 am

    lol silly papi… i dont want to come to you…i feel more feminine when a guy does the initiating… what do you think?


  56.  #56Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:39 am

    ohh… it would feel great to get to know you… and i dont want to come to you… i feel more feminine when a guy does the initiating… what do you think?

  57.  #57Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:41 am

    hmm… i feel kind of turned off when a man complains… i feel kinda mad to be expected to be the one to make an effort to come to Baltimore… I feel really angry actually… I feel freakin disappointed because I LIKE your profile a lot… and i feel like freakin destroying you right now to little shreds and pieces … i feel furious to be asked to come to a man… furious… uggggghhhhh… i do not like being treated that way

  58.  #58Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:42 am

    hi, well it feels a lil bad to read your message… i dotn want a man that’s not ready to come the distance to meet me… what do you think handsome?

  59.  #59Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:45 am

    i dont think you’re the one for me. i feel disappointed to just be left with a “if you’re in Baltimore.” I don’t want a man with little initiative. I feel like I drank really dark cofee and my guts are just not feeling right right now… yeah… i feel really angry

  60.  #60Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:46 am

    hmm… thank you for the compliments… i feel a bit weird to be left with a “just in Baltimore”

  61.  #61Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:47 am

    you know, I actually felt angry reading your message, because I really like your profile , and I feel sad that you’re not asking to come see me

  62.  #62Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:47 am

    wow! I feel attracted to you… it would feel good to have you come see me… what do you think?

  63.  #63Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:49 am

    hi… thank you… i dont want to be the one going to Baltimore… I like it when the man puts together the date… and it would feel nice to meet u . you are really handsome.

  64.  #64Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:51 am

    wow i feel excited to get your message because I really like your profile. the only thing is, I don’t want to be the one that goes to Baltimore… it feels easier for me when the guy makes all the moves… what do you think?

  65.  #65Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:52 am

    hi… i feel excited to read your profile.. you are so handsome… i feel interested

  66.  #66Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:53 am

    i am obsessed with continually answering this email.

    i can feel the triggers working in my muscles in the middle of my back and chest

    its like im working out some kind of “direct feeling message response to this thing honesty” muscle

  67.  #67Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:54 am

    oh man, hope you’re not that lame in person… i feel interested in you from your profile though, so i feel curious to hear what you sound like… im at 666 6666

    cruela deville

  68.  #68Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:56 am

    oh. well thank u. well i would love to get to know you papi, but i feel kinda dissed by the last part cuz it seems like you’re not about to make it happen to see me… so that feels bad, like im not good enough or something… i dont like that …

    i feel kinda mad and kinda turned off too… i dont want to feel this way… i really like u

  69.  #69Daria on July 24, 2010 at 3:58 am

    ohh… thank you…

    i feel really attracted to you… it would feel great to date you! … i feel so disappointed to read your message

  70.  #70Bella on July 24, 2010 at 4:27 am

    Daria!! These are all wonderful responses, I am saving these in my great examples folder!

    My FAVORITE one was #66!! LOL 🙂 Love it!

  71.  #71Lucy on July 24, 2010 at 4:38 am

    daria i have been tossing and turning in bed all night, haven’t slept a wink and just picked up my phone to read emails since i am not sleeping and now i am cracking up laughing reading your posts in bed – afraid i will wake up my kids with my laughing. 66 is my favorite too lol.

  72.  #72Lucy on July 24, 2010 at 4:47 am

    “They are so far from you because YOU ARE NOT GOING AFTER THEM genius.”

  73.  #73Lucy on July 24, 2010 at 5:00 am

    we are far from you because apparently you don’t want us badly enough to come get us. 🙂

  74.  #74Lucy on July 24, 2010 at 5:08 am

    i don’t want a man who wonders why i am so far from him. i feel amazingly good when a man wants me badly enough that he walks through ten feet of snow uphill both ways to get to me. what do you think?

  75.  #75Brenda on July 24, 2010 at 8:58 am


    You were in rare form last night! Thank you for all these wonderful feeling messages! I saved them for future use! I was totally laughing out loud when I got to the DeVille 666-6666 one!

    Your feeling messages sound really natural and very effective.

  76.  #76Brenda on July 24, 2010 at 9:02 am


    Kenny was sort of coaching me once a few years ago about dating. He told me he was from Baltimore, and he met a woman in central PA years before he knew me. He told me he drove up every weekend to see her, and he couldn’t wait to see her, and he didn’t think anything of the long drive. He just wanted to be with his woman!

    Then since he was in prison, I drove three hours each way to State College to see him for 6 years straight, and I barely missed a weekend. After the gas prices skyrocketed, I lessened it to every 2 weeks or every month.

  77.  #77Brenda on July 24, 2010 at 9:03 am

    Of course his point was the man should come to the woman, and that distance shouldn’t be an issue if he’s really into her.

  78.  #78Siena on July 24, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    I feel torn.

    #1CD is AWOL. In a way, I feel okay about that. I really don’t want to be with a man who doesn’t want to be with me. I don’t feel attracted to him right now anyway, and could take him or leave him. I don’t want to be ignored, and I’m so tired of men who don’t know what they want or who don’t want it with me. He was pursuing and pursuing me until 1 week ago, when he just dropped off the face of the earth. No calls, text, IM – no plans for this weekend. Radio silence.

    So I have a dilemma. He was supposed to go with me in a month to my best friend’s wedding in Mexico. He was super excited about it (I thought) and was getting his passport and everything together for the trip. The final piece was that he had to make sure he had enough vacation days to take the time off (which he would have known this week).

    But now since he’s AWOL, I don’t know what to do.

    What I want to do is just say ‘fuck him’ and buy myself the tickets and get my own hotel room, and if he decides to pop up again, maybe talk about it with him.

    And I certainly don’t want to lean forward and ask him what the status of the trip is.

    But if this AWOL turns out to be just a blip on the radar, and he was planning on buying the tickets and everything, it will be messy if I buy my own right now (especially since he wanted to give the trip to me as a gift).

    I told myself that I would wait until I got paid by one of my clients, which I did today.

    So I feel torn. Do I plan the trip without him? That feels like me being closed down and hard, which I don’t want.

    But I also don’t want to wait for him… I could probably wait another week or so before it becomes critical to purchase the airfare and hotel…

    I give up! I’ve been in this place so many times before and it just doesn’t feel good.

    What should I do?

  79.  #79Siena on July 24, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    well, circumstances just answered the question I asked 5 minutes ago (it’s in moderation right now because I swore hehe).

    I had asked whether to plan a trip that #1CD and I were supposed to go on together or to wait to see if he comes out from hiding. (he’s AWOL)

    One of my subcontractors asked me to pay her invoice early so that she could take her daughter on a birthday trip, so the money that I would have used to pay for my own trip I used to pay the sub’s invoice instead.

    So now I have to wait until another client check comes in before I can even think about planning my own trip.

    So I guess that’s God’s way of telling me to be patient.

    I still feel zero attraction for #1CD right now though.

    I don’t want to be forgotten or overlooked.

    I’m a high value woman, and deserve only the best.


  80.  #80Renee on July 25, 2010 at 3:45 am

    Siena — You ARE a high value woman and deserve to be treated well and it doesn’t sound like this guy’s treating you that way.

    It is funny how the universe works sometimes, isn’t it? My expectations have changed regarding how much I expect a guy to ‘give’ and since that occurred a few weeks ago, the guys I’ve been meeting have been more ‘giving’ — buying me things, offering to come meet me as opposed to asking me to ‘meet them halfway’ (I don’t like that — it doesn’t make me feel pursued when I have to do half the work up front). I’m doing mostly online dating and more than half the men I meet live outside my immediate area, so there’s going to be some driving involved in our dates. In the past, I have met guys halfway between our cities so it would be ‘fair’, but never did feel good about it. To be honest, I enjoy having a couple of drinks with dinner and I don’t want to drink and drive at all, so I really prefer to have a man come pick me up and do all the driving.

    Anway — I’ve gotten off on the subject of “me” again. Siena, you seem to be doing so well maintaining your ground and expressing yourself in feeling messages — I hope this guy picks up the oars at some point and decides to row that boat!

  81.  #81Dede on July 25, 2010 at 7:01 am

    @ Daria in #16 – you are exactly right on point with this. A man will continue to date until one woman captures his heart and mind and that is the exact point of CD’ing for women as well – why does a man have to be a player or Narc just because he has either not reached the point of being totally into a woman and wants no one but her? We need to stop being in imaginary relationships with men and thinking we can make it be something it may never be – Let the man earn his spot in our heart – the one who wants us will be so willing to do whatever it takes to have us and the other women will fall by the wayside.

  82.  #82Siena on July 25, 2010 at 9:42 am

    Thanks Renee. I’m over it… I’ve gone thru all the emotions, and now am back to anchored peace.

    I actually feel grateful now that this came up again in my life, because now I know how to deal with it. So this past week, I’ve cut out all (I hope!) the diseased tissue that has covered my heart from the times this has happened before.

    And I don’t have any energy to devote to wondering where he is or why he withdrew. I figure I’ll know the answers to those questions when the time is right.

    I need all my energy to continue to create a fantastic life for myself!

    So thanks for your response, I appreciate it!

  83.  #83Rori Raye on July 25, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    Dede, Welcome, and you nailed it. Love, Rori

  84.  #84Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Dear Siena, I don’t have any advice for you regarding your dilemma, but I just want to tell you that you are in my thoughts and prayers as you go through this place on your path. I believe in you and I feel confident that you will make good choices for yourself as you continue to follow your heart to your happily ever after.

  85.  #85Siena on July 25, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    Thanks so much Lucy! It’s been like trudging through deep molasses all this week. I don’t know whether other women feel this way too, but it seems like when something happens (or doesn’t happen!) in my love life, the rest of my life is affected too.

    Even in my business, it’s like pulling teeth to get the energy I need to get my stuff done. I have no energy for any of this!

    I’m this close to ending my relationship with my #1 client because I feel SO BORED with the work I am doing there. But if I do that, I’ll have hardly any income.

    So I trudge through that too while I “go within” to figure out what I really really want and what makes me happy. But even that feels blah.

    What’s the remedy? I exercise daily: yoga, dancing, daily long walks with my pooch. I eat very healthy (I’m a health nut). Have regular nights out with girlfriends. Semi-regular dates with men I CD. Pour over spiritual books until my brain hurts.

    …but none of it matters if something is going wrong in my love life. Is this a character flaw? What am I missing?

    Sometimes when I start to feel like this, I start to fantasize about being hugged by my mom or counseled by an older woman (which is weird, because I’m an adult!).

    Maybe it’s comfort I’m searching for…

  86.  #86Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    Siena, I talked with my therapist a few weeks ago about that EXACT issue — losing energy and “oomph” when my love life takes a nose dive! I have energy issues anyway because of my low estrogen, BUT when I was in the midst of all that love and fun with TN man for 6-7 months, my energy was through the roof! At the time, I thought it was because I was taking such good care of myself — following my oncologist’s orders with supplements and nutrition, as well as walking and dancing and yoga, etc.

    Then when TN man hooked up with interloper girl, naturally I felt some depression with lower energy, but even as I worked through it and started feeling better emotionally, my energy level was still so low. Even though I was still taking good care of myself and “moving on” and continuing to CD.

    Well, my therapist said it’s because when you’re “in love” your body produces chemicals that act like a drug — being in love changes your physiology and results in increased energy, motivation, happiness, etc. It’s like a natural high. It’s why some people get addicted to “being in love” and will seek it at any cost.

    I said “That stinks” to my therapist and asked her what the solution is. She said that after awhile your body adjusts to not having those chemicals again and your energy will become normalized (not high like when you’re in love, but not bottomed out either). It’s kind of like waiting out the withdrawal stage of a drug. 🙁

    And it can be somewhat prevented in the future — by getting better at all the Rori tools that keep us from falling too soon.

    Does that make sense?

  87.  #87Siena on July 25, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    hmmm, it totally makes sense, and it explains why I feel the way I do! Thank you! (and thank you God for providing the answer so quickly!)

    But you know my history (mostly) with #1CD. I thought I was taking things very slowly with him, continuing to date others, and trying to keep my expectations in check. Using all the Rori tools with him… and I wasn’t even all that attracted to him in the beginning. It took lots of great dates with him to make me turn my head.

    I’ve also been denying to myself that I’m in love with him… but maybe I am.

    He was making noises about being in love with me, even telling me that he was starting to become really scared of how things were going with us.

    Last I spoke with him, he called me to share some exciting news. I was the first person he called.


    sigh. Maybe I just need to get some chocolate so my withdraw symptoms are lessened. 😉

    Thank you Lucy! You don’t know how helpful your post is!!

  88.  #88Lorelei on July 25, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    I feel very sad just now. I have decided to end my marriage as I no longer want to save it. And that is the difference between going on trying, and stopping. He responds to my feeling messages about it by telling me I am mad not to appreciate him – he says he is the perfect husband. But I’m ready to walk away now. I deserve better than feeling empty, undermined, controlled and corrected, and just all-wrong due to his comments, and it all unravelled in the last few weeks.

    I’ve wondered if Rori’s tools got to me too late for this one, but using feeling tools with husband just seemed to make things worse and invite more criticism. (Full story on “If you’re through with being single . .” thread ).

    Tonight (European time) I feel very sad, because I’ve moved into the spare room and in the single bed – moved a lot of my clothes in here as well. It’s a cliche – but a necessary one. But this reminds me also of the good bits I’m leaving and grieving.

    Most of the time I feel great relief, that I’m on my way out of this, and also anger, and peace, and joy as I think about the future and a new start, now back on my horse of intuition and emotion, and I move around in the soup, feeling the grief as well. But I seem to have already grieved a lot this last 12 months. I have ditched an old belief that a man loves me when he makes me feel dreadful, small, wary of saying anything, and that my feelings are poison to him, and that I am all wrong.

    I feel dread about getting through the negotiations of the divorce. And my work has suffered badly over the last 4 or 5 weeks while we have been reaching this conclusion. I feel connected to Siena and Lucy on this one – I’m finding it hard to concentrate.
    But I am C-D-ing, even though the work is not getting done!!

    We are still living under the same roof for a few days each week. I have shut down with him altogether – just being polite. I wish one of us could move out altogether, but this won’t happen for at least a few weeks.

    Do I go on with feeling messages with husband? Do I go on making myself vulnerable even though we are splitting up? I feel that I need boy energy to get myself out of here and into a new start. Anyone have any experience of this kind of situation?

  89.  #89Lorelei on July 25, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    Siena –

    About your fantasy about being hugged/counselled by your mother or an older woman . . I have a feeling that it might be worth going with this, and doing a visualisation of yourself having a conversation with such a woman. . . and let her comfort you. It’s sort of accessing the part of you that has compassion for you.

    But chocolate is also good!

  90.  #90Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    Lorelei, I wish I would have known Rori’s tools when I was leaving my first marriage years ago. It would not have changed the outcome, but I think it would have been a much healthier process for all of us (my kids included) if I had been able to talk to him in non-blaming feeling messages, etc. He was completely at fault for the devastation and trauma, but blaming him and repeatedly telling him that was NOT helpful!!! Now, many years later, I use Rori’s tools with him and it has helped us to be able to be friendly with each other instead of hostile, which has been healthier for ALL of us — including my kids (and THEY are what matter most to me!!)

  91.  #91Siena on July 25, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    Oh Lorelei, I want to give you a big hug! I have no advice except this- Rori says use feeling messages only with men you feel safe with, and remove yourself from those you don’t feel safe with.

    Maybe that’s the question to start with, “do I feel safe with this man?”

    I’m thinking of you today and you’re in my prayers… And I’m gonna do that visualization you talked about. Maybe even write it as a diologue in my journal…

  92.  #92Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Siena, I’m so glad that helped!

    I feel a little afraid to say this (not sure why!), but a couple weeks ago (before he went AWOL), while reading your unfolding story, I felt a bit of confusion. What I was reading felt like your thoughts and feelings had gone a bit beyond what was actually happening between the two of you (which, of course, I only know the parts you shared on here, so I don’t have the whole story.) It felt like a teeny tiny bit of “imaginary relationship factor” inside a real relationship. Very very subtle. It was just a sense that I got while reading what you were sharing. I could be totally off, and I hope this doesn’t upset you. 🙁 I’m just sharing it in the hopes that it may somehow be of help to you. It kinda goes along with your thoughts about maybe being in denial about being in love.

    Hugs and love to you, Siena!

  93.  #93Siena on July 25, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    I feel better – not 100%, but better than I did when I first posted. I ate some chocolate and went outside to sit in the sun. My neighbor, whose 110 years old, came over and started flirting with me. Amazingly, I felt good talking to him and using the tools with him.

    I figure he was sent to me in that moment to help me feel better… And it worked! I had a fun convo with him, even if he is old enough to be my great grandfather.

    Oh life! How strange you are!!

  94.  #94Siena on July 25, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    Lucy, thank you for your insight!

    I don’t share everything here, but I’m willing to admit that there might be some imaginary relationship stuff going on there… It’s all I’ve ever known, so it’s a constant struggle to rein in what I’m used to, and looking at everything with crystal clarity.

    But he was pursuing me with regularity, totally rowing the boat, bringing me gifts, started to talk about the future, etc..

    I feel sad thinking that I duped myself, even while trying to stay vigilant… But I’m learning, so I’ll be gentle with myself. 🙂

  95.  #95Candy on July 25, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    I have been following the threads here since my last post. I feel happy to receive support from you as well as suggestions on how the other sides of the issue may be viewed. I really appreciate both of them. This is the beauty of this blog.

    As a person with conscience and who respect privacy, I did feel guilty after going through my now-ex’s iphone. With my ex before this ex, he earned trust from me and I had never had the urge to look into his things because his phone is lying around and he is not sneaky in handling incoming calls and text messages. Red flags are red flags and I had been ignoring them for a year, yes, from the very beginning. I used to think that I am not very good at sensing people as I am a rational, action-driven, reasoning person. From this lesson, I feel happy to learn that my woman’s sense is actually working quite well just that I let my mind to argue with my heart and undermine my gut feeling. I feel more comfortable now what people say ‘follow your heart / feeling’. I feel more feminine.

    The funny thing is that with Rori’s leaning back teaching in mind, I saw how desparate the other women are. They wrote 1000-word e-mail to wish him, bless him or beg him for a date, send swimsuit pictures and even half-naked underwear pictures to him. I don’t know. That sounds very leaning forward to me as if I have to sell myself to earn love.

    I feel regret I did not bring up the issue of exclusivity at an appropriate time early on. Yet, I do think he was not totally honest by misleading me multiple times that he was only seeing me. He said that one woman is enough trouble and not want to have two, blah blah, blah. Every female friends, he just interact with them ‘professionally’. I was introdueced to his boss and his team from work as well as a couple of male friends he used to hang out. When he was on business trip around valentine’s day, his boss did not want him to be unhappy and bought a plane ticket for me to fly to spend the time with him. He initiated to visit and treat my parents to meals at least three times. He calls and texts me everyday in the morning and before bed. Honestly, I don’t know how to gauge the level of reality of relationship now. I know that other women do not know about it too. When he was on trip with me, he e-mailed another woman that he is on business trip and his stay is extended because the company asked him so. I do not feel that I have wronged him on this point about honesty.

    Why I feel so ready to move on? Because I know that he is not able to commit to only one woman. He was married for 10 years and divorced 3 years before I met him. He mentioned that he used to have one on one dinner or coffee with single female colleagues or friends now and then. He said that both himslef and his ex-wife traveled a lot for work. When he was alone, he was offered sex at least twice from his female friends. He was so proud when he told me this that he did not sleep with them that he had refused them! He obviously thinks that cheating only means cheating physically. At that time, I felt very curious, would I offer myself to a male friend without having communicated in a more-than-friend manner? He told me he was devastated that he found his ex-wife cheated twice on him. You know what? When I was with him, I felt ‘haunted’ (that there are some invisble people energy around), I felt the urge to stray too which I did not know why. I had not put it into action which I feel glad about.

    As the other posters say, I am feeling more at peace now. I don’t have to constantly worried where he is and who he is with while fighting in my mind that I should not feel insecured. It turns out that I am not really an insecured person. I just knew there were things going on. That was why I felt so unsettling (never felt that way with my ex ex bf). Always on roller coaster – overly happy when he calls and sad and worried when he gets drunk in pub till 3 or 4am. I just feel glad that I can move on and now sure that I have not missed out a potentially good man. It is a file closed. I feel more at ease and peaceful now.

    Also, I do agree that God will find ways to let us know what we should do. Throughout all the rough and uncertain time, I pray to God to let me know if he is real. I think God made him pass his phone to me – remember that he guards his phone so much. Or maybe he subconsciously wants me to find out too.

    Anyway, I feel much better now and look forward to the better to come.

  96.  #96Lorelei on July 25, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    I woke up today, newly in the single bed, feeling more positive. Being in the spare room, I enjoy the freedom to come to this blog, the freedom to write my journal, the freedom to do the tools and visualizations that need a bit of time on my own. I feel relaxed.

    It’s interesting how in this very weird time of moving towards ending the marriage, different parts of me ‘know’ things at different times. I keep imagining and writing about the kind of place I will end up living in on my own – I was doing this even before I admitted or acted on the final conclusion that I was going to walk away. I even bought one or two items “for my new house” before I had admitted or decided that it really was the end. I can even see the colours it will be decorated in!

  97.  #97Lorelei on July 25, 2010 at 11:04 pm

    Thanks for your comments, Siena and Lucy. I feel held and nurtured by your support and understanding.

    The clear idea to do feeling messages with men you feel safe with, and get out when you don’t feel safe is brilliant and clear. I’ve felt confused about this. On this blog, I’ve sometimes had the sense that feeling messages are used in all situations, even unsafe ones. And I have wondered where the cut-off point comes, where, or when, we remove ourselves rather than continue.

    With husband, I both do and don’t feel safe. I don’t feel emotionally safe – I’ve found that he can’t tolerate my feelings. He has never hit me or used any kind of physical violence – one of the good bits was a gentle touch.

    But it feels so weird here at the moment. I am staying away from the house a lot, but have to come home for two days every week. I feel his anger, and it is very well controlled. Very much kept down. He’s the kind of person who is very in his head, and I sometimes wonder if he could flip and lose it if all the anger burst out at once. I feel weird even writing this, but it crosses my mind a lot. I keep telling myself I’m just being paranoid. I really hope I’m just being paranoid.

    I do feel scared, well, apprehensive, and I do need to get out. But until end of August, I am finishing a course of study, and intensely involve with that, and not wanting to lose all I have worked for by not finishing because I decide I must move out, with all that that involves.

    So I will use the simpler feeling messages- like ‘I don’t want . .’, ‘I feel uncomfortable with . .’ but practice the more open ones only with men I feel safe with.

    And I have colleagues, tutors and salsa dance partners to practice those on!

  98.  #98Rose on July 26, 2010 at 6:29 am

    Siena, would it be so terrible to lean forward this time and try and contact him maybe?
    I know and understand Rori’s feelings on this, I have been using her tools and following this blog since March..Leaning back is an excellent tool..
    However I do think If you have been hearing from him consistently for 3 months maybe contacting him to see if he’s alright would be not such a crazy thing to do. Then you leaned forward and if you hear nothing just lean waaayy back again….

  99.  #99Alicia on July 28, 2010 at 7:25 pm

    Good response Rori! I can relate to the story and take in your advice as well.. 🙂

  100.  #100Jessica on July 29, 2010 at 9:32 am

    Hello Rori,
    I want to thank you for the emails you have been sending me. I am also wondering if you can give me some advice with my relationship. Although the advice you send me (not only helps me but also lets me help the people around me if they are in that situation) is completely different from my story. Well I’m 20 yrs old and my boyfriend is 21 and we are high school sweet hearts and have been together going on 6yrs this August. I love him more than anything because he’s been there for me through the worst times and we have so many things in common. I feel that he is more that just my boyfriend. I can go up to him and explain what im going through and he’ll understand where im coming from. But things have been a little shady lately…Right now we are not talking because of an argument we had a couple days ago. To me the argument was pointless and could have been handled better. I know in the past we have had way worst arguments than this one but for some reason he is extremely mad at me and tries to get away from me when i come around. I understand if he’s upset for me practically starting the argument, which i don’t even remember what it was about, but what i don’t understand is why he is trying to avoid me. I’m just afraid of him meeting someone else and forgetting about me or just get tired of the problems we have and leave me. I have so much love for him that i don’t think i can live on without him. I would love to work things out with him but not sure how to react in this situation…should i just leave him alone? or should i keep on trying to make this work? Ever since we graduated high school i have provided for him because he has no GED and no job..he has had simple jobs here and there but i always talk to him about getting a career and til this day he still hasn’t made a move. When i let him know that i will leave him if he doesn’t shape up … he says “OK do what you have to do”.. i mean why is it so easy for him to leave or easy for him to hide his feelings. I’m so confused because of coarse he has some type of love for me since we been together for almost 6 yrs but I just don’t want him to fall out of love with me. Please help me Ms. Rori i really don’t know what to do….Thank you

  101.  #101Rori Raye on July 29, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    Jessica, Welcome – and the problem here is that you’ve been a doormat. Totally. Supporting him, being fearful that he’ll leave you after an argument – this is not okay after 6 years.
    Forget about supporting him and spend your money on YOU. Get my ebook, learn about boundaries and feeling messages, and start to ask questions and talk about stuff with him instead of guessing and stuffing. Love, Rori

  102.  #102Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 12:18 pm


    I have found Rori’s most powerful tool is the “walk out” tool. When a man is treating your badly, just walk out of the argument, or, if appropriate, move out. You will see a new side of him emerge. He is taking you for granted. He won’t if you show him that you really will leave him if he doesn’t change. He is acting irresponsibly with his education and work situation.


  103.  #103lm on July 29, 2010 at 12:53 pm


    agreed on the walk out tool. if i don’t feel awesome i find a way to get the heck out. it feels great.

  104.  #104Siena on July 29, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    Hi Rose re #98 (I missed this one).

    I wouldn’t feel good leaning forward and contacting him. I thought about doing that (of course!), but the only reason I would do it is to move the relationship forward, which is his job.

    I considered that he might be on his deathbed, but then realized he’s probably not, and even if he is, if he’s really into me, he’ll find a way to get in touch with me.

    Reminds me of someone I dated about 10 years ago (totally true story!) who I wasn’t really in to. We had a date, and then I didn’t hear from him for about 3 months.

    Three months later he called me and told me that while riding his bike home from our last date, he got hit by a tram, and had spent the past three months in the hospital with a broken pelvis. (His brother verified the story!) He was calling me to tell me that HE was sorry for not following up on the date!

    I really wasn’t into this guy at all, so it didn’t even occur to me to call him after I hadn’t heard from him and ask him where he was.

    And it taught me a good lesson – unless he’s dead, if he wants to talk to me, he’ll find a way to do so… I don’t ever have to worry about that!

  105.  #105kimmy on July 30, 2010 at 3:58 am

    thats heart braking=(

  106.  #106Dee on July 30, 2010 at 9:31 am

    Massage therapy being professional is still an intimate experience. How do others feel about their man having this therapy on a regular basis with same female therapist. Any concerns? Rori?

  107.  #107Dee on July 30, 2010 at 9:34 am

    Massage therapy being professional is still an intimate experience. How do others feel about their man having this therapy on a regular basis with same female therapist. Any concerns? Rori?

  108.  #108Daria on July 30, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Dee –

    I’ve been to massage therapy and it didn’t feel intimate at all… it felt great and really good to my muscles… and professional.

  109.  #109Daria on July 30, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Dee – I wouldn’t give it a second thought, the same way if it were a doctor’s appointment. UNLESS something felt weird – then I would talk to my man about it – using feelign messages.

  110.  #110Brenda on July 30, 2010 at 2:12 pm


    I feel weird about it. At one point, I considered being a massage therapist. I finally chose not to, because I concluded it was too intimate for me and I only want to touch someone like that if it’s a friend, my Mom, or my future husband.

    I myself only go to a massage therapist if it is a woman. I can’t imagine a man going to a woman massage therapist and not getting sexual feelings. I would be like yeah, tell me another one.

    But to each his or her own.

  111.  #111Rori Raye on July 31, 2010 at 11:13 am

    Re massage therapy – I go to male massage therapists mostly – I WANT that outpouring of testosterone!!!! It feels fantastic from a professional I feel safe with!!! Love, Rori

  112.  #112Cecilia on July 31, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    Hi Deb #24

    I read your letter, and was curious if I could find responses to it here, but I didn´t find one. I feel what you wrote in the sms conversation with T: was So Good! and feel interested to know what Rori thinks about it.

    I have read Roris material for soon, two years.. now, and are following her blog and what you all write here. Rori; as so many woman say, I do too find you absolutely great, and I feel greatful to have come in contact with you! 🙂

    Debs sms conversation:

    T: So I guess we aren’t together or whatever the term for our relationship?

    Deb: Well Travis, I guess you are right. I feel pretty angry about being treated like I’m unimportant and I’m embarrassed that I put up with such treatment for so long. I felt like we were completely disconnected and I don’t want that kind of relationship. I feel happier to have this out of my mind and off of my chest. I am open to perhaps talking about this face to face sometime in the future, but as for now I’ll focus on enjoying the rest of my time here. Pura vida y feliz verano ~

    (My comment: WOW! So good! I can really, as a receiver, feel what you say and that you too gain from it by telling Your Truth without a schred of doubt. Clear and to the point, AND standing up for your life enjoying the rest of your time!)

    T (very fast response): Ok. I will respect that. I am for talking face to face. Until then please be safe. Again I wish we had more time together before u left so we both would be more secure in our importance in each other’s life. I’ve been thinking that same way about u. ~ love Travis

    Deb (5 days later): I appreciate you saying that… I’m glad you understand me and it feels better to know what you think. Pura vida y amor ~

    T: I wish u knew how I feel.

    Deb: No, not this time… now I’m angry about all of this and I don’t want to give you my energy and emotions when I feel afraid that my heart will just be strung along again. I won’t do that to myself. We agreed on a face-to-face conversation and you are not here in front of me. Its up to you when that happens.

    (My repsonse: *laughing* This is so totally Awesome! You´re not buying into his mess! and I feel you receive a deep respect in him. Now, either he´ll shape up; or, and if he doesn´t know how to shape ut, you can choose to feel as the happy woman that actually got “rid off him” ) Nevertheless, I feel respect for you and I hope you can feel proud of yourself and strenghtened from this! So Great!

    T (fast response): Wow

    The reason why I chose to respond to this is because I feel that I have a difficult time finding my “gut feeling” – not sure of the English word for it here, (I´m Swedish) of standing up for myself in a – for me – Good way in feeling messages. I felt so much support reading your letter! I´ve struggled with this for some time now, and are lately finding Me again. To feel a deep, good and safe feeling about standing up for oneself, in a clear way, strong, selfconfident way, feels so important to me! this feels like my key to my selfasteem and I long to read more about that from you Ladies.

    Thank you!



    Ps. Rori, I would like to put in a photo as well, I can´t remember where to find the information about that you put in a month ago. Could you or someoneelse help me find that, please 🙂

  113.  #113Rori Raye on August 4, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Cecilia, Welcome – and thank you for this wonderful comment off of Deb’s great story…go to to get your photo so you can take it with you around the web – it’s easy and fast. Love, Rori

  114.  #114Dee on September 20, 2010 at 10:03 am

    On the subject of massage therapy … if I am great with going to male massage therapist for the experience of “outpouring of testosterone,” and who isn’t? 🙂 … then is it also okay with us ladies for our man to do the same? Soaking in the essense of femininity with someone else? Just seems intimate to me.

  115.  #115Daria on September 20, 2010 at 10:31 am

    What about a couple massage where you are both in the same room?

    to me, outpouring of testosterone is literally – the hormone testosterone

    not outpouring of masculinity…