A Devastating Breakup Out Of Nowhere…

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traintracksThe Question:

Marlene said, “I just broke up from a four year relationship. He became angry one morning and said the relationship was not working for him.

No fights. No arguments.

I moved out. He will not see me or talk to me.

Says I hurt him. He still loves me, but is moving on. What now?”

This is devastating. Four years.

It ends just because he gets angry one morning.

My Answer:

Marlene, I believe you believe this happened suddenly.

And, for me, this is the perception, perhaps – but it doesn’t seem possible to me.

My marriage was horrible for the first four years, five years, because I was over functioning like crazy.

I was passive aggressive,  and still, he would not have considered leaving me.

He was so clueless, he didn’t even know anything was wrong.

I was – for him – the right one. He just knew it.

My guess is so many relationships go on – a year, two years, three, four, six, seven  – just because it’s convenient for the guy.

Just because it’s good enough.

But if the connection, communication and emotional intimacy aren’t there solidly – all the underneath stuff just kind of starts to grow. Resentment builds.

Things get stuffed under the rug.

All the juice of the relationship gets sucked down. It gets dry.

Then all of a sudden he feels bad, he doesn’t feel right, he doesn’t feel good and he wants out.

I’ve seen this happen. I had a friends, a married couple. They were in their late 60’s or early 70’s – she was a powerhouse and he seemed “mild.” He seemed almost “dog-like” in his devotion to her, and they ran a business together.

One day I saw her in tears. He’d left her.

All of us friends around her were in total and complete shock until we heard the story (from her), which was that this guy just wanted to sit and play his guitar or watch TV and she was like, “Don’t do that. It’s disturbing me. I don’t really want to hear that.”

After awhile he just felt like he couldn’t be himself with her.

This mild man who’d seemed lost and terrified without this woman was able to move out into a tiny, little apartment and he was happy and he stayed there.

It’s really amazing what a guy will do just to be himself and to feel accepted and loved for who he is.

Marlene, I’m not saying this is what happened to you. And I am saying that the clues are usually there, loud and clear.

We just try to not hear them.

Love, Rori


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  1.  #1IamHis on April 2, 2015 at 9:55 pm

    Feedback would feel great.

    Finally got to work with Tim Tebow again.

    He seemed really happy to see that we were working together, so that felt good.

    It is almost impossible to talk to him, because he is seriously always surrounded by both women and men.

    He is just very magnetic and personable.

    I find it so sexy, because he doesn’t even appear to try…he’s just very calm, & with my nerves the way they are at work, I find that VERY sexy.

    & there wasn’t as much “accidental touching” today on his part, which made me feel sad, but we had to work in different areas & it was insanely busy.

    He did get a little in, though. He kept unnecessarily bumping into me. At one point my hands landed on his stomach & I kept catching him staring at me, but he would quickly look away when I would catch him.

    I just feel annoyed at all the aggressive girls who blatantly and aggressively flirt with him. One girl in particular “has a boyfriend in the military” & yet she practically throws herself at every guy there.

    I feel jealous of natural sirens who pull them in, but I just feEl disgusted by the aggressive flirtatious type. Oh, & she picks fights with me & practically makes fun of my soft femininity. It brings out an aggressive defensive feeling in me, & it doesn’t feel good.

  2.  #2IamHis on April 2, 2015 at 10:00 pm

    How do you deal with those guys who have girls throwing themselves at them?

    Lean back, open my heart, smile, use feeling messages, stay soft, say thank you a lot?

    It seems to be working, but I worry I’m not showing enough interest.

    But I don’t. want to be like every other girl. …

  3.  #3Posie on April 2, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    Just an out of the blue post. I feel sooo exhausted from overthinking. If leaning back feels unnatural and uncomfortable and exhausting am I doing it wrong? I asked my unavailable BCF to give me lots of space until he was ready for more almost 2 months ago. That seemed to feel right at the time, I felt like I was establishing a necessary boundary because he just wasn’t coming towards me like I wanted and it was painful to feel like I was getting crumbs and wasn’t allowed to do anything to change it. I set up a black and white in my mind… Like it or leave it, all for the sake of NOT leaning forward. So I left. But 2 months of focusing on me and making serious effort to move in another direction hasn’t changed a penny of the longing I feel in my guts for his presence.

    It’s like I set up an artificial boundary that keeps him at a distance and allows no space for shared and equal communication. Putting all the weight on him to move towards me and restricting my own freedom to move freely. Exhausting.

    We have had a couple of small exchanges via work since and it boiled over this week when we both confessed to having feelings still and also reservations. I asked him what he thought we should do and he said he didn’t know.
    So I tried something different. I took just took the reigns the next day and geez that feels better. More comfortable. Feels more honest. I told him: “Good morning sweet BCF. Let’s try following my path for a change, come with me… Put your weary feet in my footprints, you will find them simple, clear, and very calm. Fun even. Let’s just share some space… Trust that our hearts will tell us what to do and who we are once we’re there, with no expectations. It’s a slow, soft, and uncomplicated way for us to move.

    Or, after a long few months for both of us, you might tell me you just can’t, we don’t move, and I can finally use that stillness to shake the rest off on my own, like a dog coming out of the lake to the shore for something new. think think think. :)”

    He replied after a while that he wasnt ignoring me, that he was pondering the proposal, and it did make him smile. I said: “thanks for the note, super kind of you. take time. We aren’t rushing anymore, are we? No where to rush to, nothing to lose right now. And I’m glad you smiled.”

    It’s not exactly leaning back is it? But it feels better. Way way better. Thoughts?

  4.  #4Lovergirl on April 2, 2015 at 11:01 pm


    Keep in mind that by NOT aggressively throwing yourself at him, you are much more likely to stand out. Men that have women throwing themselves at them are much more intrigued by the ones that don’t.

  5.  #5Lovergirl on April 2, 2015 at 11:42 pm

    I’m feeling…unsure right now of what is going on with S. Earlier today, I was working at his house and he texted me, jokingly to feel free to cook him a hot meal and have it there when he gets home. I said if you had let me know earlier I might have actually been able to do that ;). For awhile he was paying me to cook for him a couple of times a week, because he likes my cooking and gets tired of eating out all the time. Anyway, his response was “you treat me so good, really”. I said he is good to me too, and was feeling all melty about that for awhile.

    Then tonight, he calls on the phone a couple of times. There was a lot of teasing in there the first time, about my new “boyfriend”. He had changed his mind and said okay about bringing the guy’s stuff over to sell, though he had to make a million jokes about it and ask if we’d had sex on top of his things, if the guy had “jizzed” all over the stuff, etc.

    The second time he called me….was weird. He called and acted like he had something really important to discuss. He said he’d been thinking and wanted to talk about some things.

    Then he asked about after I got divorced, when exactly I got started in the swinger scene and if I was actively dating anyone WHILE I was doing that stuff. Actually the only “relationships” I have been in during that time have been open ones, I haven’t been monogamous with anyone or pretending to be.

    He wanted my opinion on whether he should tell women that he is considering for a serious relationship about his swinging experiences or if I thought that would scare them off. Needless to say, giving him “advice” about this subject felt kind of gut wrenching. Like, why is he asking ME to help him with other women??

    I told him my honest opinions, that its not the first thing I would tell someone, but that I didn’t think it was a good idea to hide it either. I said any woman that is dating a 35 year old man who has never been married is going to know you aren’t “innocent”. She is going to either assume you have been playing the field or are gay.

    He said that was true and we got into a long and good discussion about expectations and past sexual histories and stuff like that. He said he is surprised at how much I have told him and how open I’ve been with him in the time we have been together, but that it never made him think any less of me. He said he felt uncomfortable with other “swinger women” and that he felt most of them were too out of control sexually for him to ever consider for a relationship, that I am the only woman he’s never felt like that about.

    We talked about how most of the couples we know in that lifestyle fall on extreme ends of the spectrum, either they have a rock solid relationship and outside sex doesn’t seem to affect it, or they are a complete mess and there is all kinds of drama, jealousy and stress. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of middle ground. S and I have both only been involved as single people- so we are just observing the couples.

    We got into a discussion on how people manage to maintain open relationships. He told me of his 3 serious girlfriends, the first girl, they got into a bit of swinging and he regretted it, because it ended up hurting her and he felt like she agreed to things she shouldn’t have. The second two were totally NOT okay with it. The last one was very resentful of his past and just couldn’t let it go. He said he harbored a lot of guilt about it and he didn’t want to carry that into future relationships. He wanted to be real about himself.

    He made a comment in there about my age and the miscarriages (I am 38), saying he thought that might mean the end of my ability to have children. I said I don’t think so, I know plenty of people who had miscarriages at my age and still had more kids. He talked about wanting to have children and how it would make his father happy (he is the only child of his father, he has a sister but she has another dad). He said he wants that for himself too.

    Anyway, it kind of felt like he was feeling me out about things, but at the same time like he was asking my “advice” about others, so it was confusing. I’m not 100% sure on his actual intent.

    After we hung up, I texted him: “It makes me feel sad to give you advice on how you should be with someone else that you want to get serious with :/” then I followed with “maybe its more just disappointed”.

    He responded “We are talking in general Lovergirl”.

    I said “I know. It still makes me sad to think of you finding someone else :/”

    He texted back: “You know I call you and ask you stuff because I really value your opinion”.

    I said: “I know and thank you for that. It just feels painful to be in the position of advice giver, rather than someone you wanted to be with”.

    Then….nothing. No response. Never heard back. That was a couple of hours ago and he should be asleep by now. He didn’t say “okay” or “I”m sorry” or “I won’t ask you for advice on that kind of stuff” or anything. If he doesn’t text back its usually because he doesn’t know what to say (and its rare). So I’m guessing that is the case here. Sigh….

  6.  #6Victoria on April 3, 2015 at 12:47 am

    You know Rori says to not get into the man’s business and focus on ourselves.
    I can totally see how such a long discussion messes with your mind. I also think you are wonderfully tolerant and patient with him.
    I think in the early dating phases men as a general rule are hypocritical abour s*x – they want to play the ground but seek a woman who is innocent… Until they find out that actually they can not be themselves with such a woman, and that she will judge them for their past.
    I also think that it is very important to be authentic (i.e. to not have to play a role – pretent to be conservative about s*x when you actually are not).
    I have no advice for you… I know where I come from single men would shy away from dating/marrying a woman who has children from a previous marriage, even when they are madly in love with her, because they parents would not approve. It is sad and stupid, as many social stereotypes are.
    I am sending you love and hugs.

  7.  #7Indigo on April 3, 2015 at 12:57 am


    I feel really concerned about this.

    It seems to me S is doing all of this – getting you to work for him, asking you to cook for him, tying you up on the phone for hours asking for “advice” – simply because it is convenient for him. He is using you, for want of a better way of putting it. It suits him, and you are not doing a thing to stop it. How do you feel about all of this? Because I’ll tell you honestly, it would NOT be ok for me.

    You are overfunctioning big time without any thought to your own needs or what is best for you. I would put in some clear boundaries if it were me, if only to preserve my own sense of self worth. No cooking. No talking about other women, DEFINITELY no advice giving about other women. Giving advice to men in general is a bad idea, most of the coaches advise against it. I’d keep the phone conversations short and not allow him to endlessly tug at my emotions with all these “hints”. You are driving yourself nuts. His intentions are not your business.

    You cannot rely on him to stop doing things which are taking advantage. YOU have to put in the boundaries.

  8.  #8Kim on April 3, 2015 at 3:18 am

    I agree with Indigo…..lovergirl, I would get my energy out of there asap…..he is treating you like a fun friend.
    Sounds very similar to what my unavailable man did…and in te end, when he asked me advice about dating others, what women like etc., I was out of there.

  9.  #9Dixie on April 3, 2015 at 5:27 am

    Lovergirl…. Most of us here have been in some situation that feels SO similar to what you’re going through.

    To echo the above sirens, he is getting your tenderness, your cooking, your patience, your time, your focus, your efforts, while he is asking you “friendly advice” about how to approach other women.

    Oh lovergirl, I’d feel more than sad! I would feel suckerpunched! I agree with these wise ladies above, and yes, I know the feeling of having my heart wrapped around a man:

    When D first turned towards me with love a few years ago, oh, I immediately shared everything with him, and emotionally we were thick as thieves. Things were great until I realized I wanted more than he was offering. Short strokes: awful, painful, crying in bed, losing weight, zombie at work sort of breakup last spring. No contact. Ugly issues came out and I had to deal with my own insecurities and trust issues by myself. Months of slow healing with limited contact. Sometimes it felt good to hear him, sometimes way too painful. Like your dear S, D was my best friend…

    Now: D had entered my life but I’m no longer pushing AT ALL. I don’t edit his articles (rarely), I dont send emails, I don’t offer information about anything unless he asks. If something exciting happens in my life, I share with friends, colleagues, here, and the last person I rush to tell is D, and then only when he asks. Result? He has been moving so close without ANY of my previous “secret overfunctioning” efforts. Dear Lovergirl, do not buy this mans toilet paper for him anymore. You’re such a wonderful, free spirit. This man should be moving towards you with real affection, not only when he wants chores, food, advice, and yes, even friendship.

    No man asks a girl he’s crazy bananas about to buy toilet paper :). In a commited relationship, sharing a home, sure. Can you fund something you love to do that takes your attention away from him totally? Get outside, join a running or walking group maybe? It feels like this man inhabits your heart and head.

  10.  #10Kath on April 3, 2015 at 6:28 am


    Please,Please, Please STOP!!!!!- Stop DOING everything for him!!- LEAN WAY WAY WAY BACK- STOP cooking for him, stop accepting his calls, stop talking to him. Stop all of it and give yourself a huge hug. You need to love you. You owe him nothing!!!!- He is not treating you with the care, love and respect you deserve. I have felt the confusion and the pain you are feeling now. I have over-functioned in the desperate hope that he would suddenly have a light bulb moment and realise what a wonderful woman I was and want to get down on one knee and propose-but he didn’t. I got less, and less and I felt even less worthy!- DARLING SIREN HE IS THE ONE THAT IS NOT WORTHY OF YOU!!!- You are gorgeous, generous, loving,caring and fun and he is not seeing or wanting the best of you. Please step back and away from him for good and let the healing begin. We are all here to help and support you and each other along the way. Much love Lovergirl xxx

  11.  #11IamHis on April 3, 2015 at 6:59 am

    Lover girl, first of all, thanks for your feedback.

    Second of all, as one of the more “innocent persuasion,” yes yes, men can be so hypocritical when it comes to sex. Some seem to like and even respect my inexperience, but it also seems to intimidate and concern them, especially since I am very attractive. Sometimes I can fee

  12.  #12IamHis on April 3, 2015 at 7:14 am

    *feel their judgments or a ‘what is wrong with her?’ Kind of vibe.

    I actually see your interactions with this man much differently tHan the other women here.

    I have found that when men ask you for advice, it is their way of showing that they respect you…because it makes them feel SO good…validated…needed…respected…consulted.

    I don’t think they understand why a woman wouldn’t like it.

    I think he probably felt defeated when he could tell he wasn’t making you happy.

    It sounds to me like he really respects you and feels accepted by you for the most part.

    He sounds like he is even considering you as a serious option. Does this woman accept me in spite of my sexual history? Would this woman be willing and able to be the mother of my children? What can I learn about women in general from this wise woman I respect?

    I don’t see why else he would be having long, thoughtful conversationso like the type you are having. If he wasn’t somewhat serious, I don’t think he would even bother.

    Just a different perspective! I agree to lean back and take care of you, but hopefully this perspective will put you in a better feeling place for when he contacts again.

    Much love to you, Lovergirl! <3

  13.  #13Kim on April 3, 2015 at 7:45 am

    Actually, this is an alternative point…but I don’t know if it is really helpful for us to get into a man’s head all that much…I always look at the facts and what he is bringing to the table, and what he might show me…this to me shows a friendly treatment…and there is nothing wrong with that. If that’s all we want.

  14.  #14Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 7:54 am

    This as far as I am concerned is not about “fun friend”. It is abuse. Then again I keep getting the sense that you use sex and being with men to beat yourself up.

  15.  #15Kim on April 3, 2015 at 7:55 am

    Just to be clear on the friendly vibe and the toilet buying vibe here…no, a man who wants to impress a girl he wants to snatch doesn’t ask her to buy bog roll and cook him a dinner, that much I simply have to agree with the others…at least this never happened to me. OMG…that is not courting. Or not the type of courting that would feel good to most of us.

    So, I had a similar incidence of that today. MrP asked me to go boating, informing me of the time etc. I have no car and said ‘how would I get there’…turns out he expects me to make my way there and back (30 minute one way in car, 3 hours one way on public transport)…and he informed me there was only one space left….and it might be filled if I don’t answer soon.
    I laughed. I wrote back: ‘ok, no problem, feel free to give the space to another person, I am not interested.’
    Men do try to get away with murder…but if we have sufficient self esteem and respect (first and foremost for ourselves and then for them), we know exactly what to do.
    Fact is even if he had said he would be picking me up, buy lunch and drinks for the boat and drop me off home (like he used to), I may have hesitated because I have a bf and it’s not exactly appropriate…but he was just trying to take a little harem on a boat outing and boost his own self-esteem doing that, ad not even expending ANY effort whatsoever.
    LOL. No way, no way, no way….even if I didn’t have alternative plans, I would rather chill out on my beach by myself than travel 5 hours plus to make a man feel like he is God’s gift by summoning women from far and wide…hahaha.

    It’s obviously different if you are working for someone, I would strictly separate the professional and personal relationships..i e if he wants groceries bought, and TP, he has to give you a list and money upfront, and give you an advance notice. And PAY for the time spent and groceries etc., otherwise I feel he is really just using a woman who he knows is stuck on him, to his own advantage… I wouldn’t stick around for that, no.

  16.  #16Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:04 am

    Iamhis unfortunately your comment seems to me to be loaded with lack of experience. Some men out there play games. They play with a woman’s emotions if she allows him to because his thinking is she should get it. She is a grown up. A man who is grown up with any experience at all knows he does not discuss other women with a woman he really wants. He knows that woman if she respects herself is out of there when that type of thing starts. Men are notorious for only being able to focus on one thing at a time so when he is really focused on you and you have triggered his monogamous hormone he can’t focus on another woman so intently.

    What is described above is a man having his cake and eating it too. What is described above is a man taking what is convenient to him and making use of it. The man above needs to thrown in the sea cold turkey so he learns to swim. He needs to have the carpet pulled from under him so he falls flat on his face. Maybe then he will appreciate the value of this woman. Right now everything is handed to him on a silver platter so he doesn’t know the value of it because it is always there. Men, humans value what they can’t have.

  17.  #17Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:07 am

    Good for you Kim. I feel so proud of you.

  18.  #18Lovergirl on April 3, 2015 at 8:14 am

    Good morning ladies, and thank you for your thoughts….

    I feel like I need to clarify some things. Like, I haven’t cooked for S in months and didn’t last night either. When I did cook for him, most of the times he was paying me money for it.

    He also paid me for the toilet paper. He left me an extra $20 on the counter, which more than covered it. We have been seeing each other for almost a year, and he pays me to do various odd jobs as well as help with his business, so really I didn’t find it offensive at all. It made me laugh.

    As far as his call last night, I realize it sounds like he has me in the friend zone, but I think that was exactly his intent BECAUSE he is feeling threatened by the new guy, that he keeps referring to as my “boyfriend” and asking questions about. S does not normally ask my advice about other women.

  19.  #19Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:15 am

    “He said he felt uncomfortable with other “swinger women” and that he felt most of them were too out of control sexually for him to ever consider for a relationship, that I am the only woman he’s never felt like that about.”

    Frankly I don’t believe him. We all tell stories and most of them times when we are, the man in the story is the man we are talking to and the woman in the story is likely to be the story teller and vice versa. Even coaches teach about that. Which is the reason why man encourage us to tell stories to bring a point across. The stories have a powerful effect on our psyche.

  20.  #20Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:19 am

    “He left me an extra $20 on the counter”

    This feels so disgusting to read to be honest Lovergirl. We do those things for the maids when we stay in a hotel. I hope he at least put it in an envelope with your name on it. You really have to find a way in your life to require respect. These little things matter because it teaches others how to treat us.

  21.  #21Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:21 am

    “he is feeling threatened by the new guy”

    Very typical of how I and many other women make excuses for men. I can’t help but wonder what would Evan Mark Katz say about this?

  22.  #22Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:22 am

    “My guess is so many relationships go on – a year, two years, three, four, six, seven – just because it’s convenient for the guy.”

  23.  #23Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:24 am

    “And I am saying that the clues are usually there, loud and clear.

    We just try to not hear them.”

  24.  #24Lovergirl on April 3, 2015 at 8:25 am

    I feel on the defensive and like maybe this isn’t a good place for me to discuss my relationship with S anymore. I don’t feel it is at all like some of you all are describing and I feel misunderstood. I know S well enough to know that he is not out to deliberately hurt me or a bad person.

  25.  #25IamHis on April 3, 2015 at 8:29 am

    Ouch. I don’t feel good. Of course I don’t know Lovergirl’s whole situation, but she is the one who knows this man & she’s the one who gets to decide how to respond to him.

    I feel small and icky.

  26.  #26IamHis on April 3, 2015 at 8:31 am

    (((Lovergirl)))) Sorry Lovergirl. I feel bad that it seems you don’t feel good here right now either.

  27.  #27Kim on April 3, 2015 at 8:32 am

    Oh no, I do not think this guy is a bad person, and if you want to stay open and see where it goes, nothing wrong….I would step away from the guy completely – if only to see what his real motives are….rather than waste my time and then get hurt when he tells me about all the women he dates…because it seems like this is about to happen. I wouldn’t subject myself to any of that..much love to you lovergirl, for what it’s worth I believe you deserve a lot better, but you have to believe it yourself..

  28.  #28Starla on April 3, 2015 at 8:43 am

    Lovergirl, don’t leave. Judgments aside, the advice to stop being so accomodating to him getting into these conversations that make you feel bad and second best is good stuff. Get a free session with a coach! One will be enough for now. I like leigha lake especially.
    Sometimes we get judgey here, lol. I can be very judgmental. I think we get triggered seeing a siren not taking care of her heart, or being in her own way, because we know that pain and dont want it for our sisters.

  29.  #29Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:45 am

    Honestly Lovergirl I don’t think he is a bad person. As a matter of fact I really am not thinking about him at all. I am thinking about you. I want to see you get so mad that you find enough energy to take care of yourself. To find another means of providing for yourself and your children so this man become such a distant memory that you wonder who he is when he comes crawling back to you after rejecting him so hard he starts wondering what hit him. I want you to see yourself so capable of having it all and dreaming about a successful life that you can build with your bare hands. I want you to see yourself not in any way dependent on this man for your survival. There is a huge world of possibilities out there. You’ve got to believe in yourself.

  30.  #30Starla on April 3, 2015 at 8:48 am

    While im here i will give you ladies an update. I am with a gorgeous man now. Marriage is squarely on the table. We are very happy:-). I am still working through my anxieties and patterns. He gives me room to be myself, even in the ugly ways. I feel so whole and seen by him. I get scared it won’t last forever. Its still too soon for me to be certain i even want it forever. But this is the first time ive experienced a man knowing clearly what he wants with me and makes it happen without my pushing. He is also like my best friend, and we are just constantly having fun. It would be a beautiful partnership. I believe in him and am so attracted to him. I trust his leadership which feels relieving And makes me feel feminine.

  31.  #31Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 8:52 am

    Starla I love your update and I am feeling curious to know what you admire and respect about him. Of course you don’t have to respond if you don’t want to.

  32.  #32Kim on April 3, 2015 at 9:00 am

    Starla, whoa, fantastic, this sounds great!! Thanks for the update! xo

  33.  #33Kim on April 3, 2015 at 9:00 am

    Starla, whoa, fantastic, this sounds great!! Thanks for the update! xo

  34.  #34Labbit on April 3, 2015 at 9:01 am

    Lovergirl I have found that every time I start to feel defensive about the feedback I get here, it’s because there’s a lot of truth in there I don’t want to see. Same for when I feel deeply triggered. You are quite brave to come here and share your story so openly, and even if you don’t realize it, it’s because you want help.

    Can you find that bravest spot inside of you to open up to the help and feedback? No one here has anything besides your best interest in mind, and these are just words…you get to control your every action. 🙂

  35.  #35Starla on April 3, 2015 at 9:08 am

    I admire his loyalty to people he cares about. His dedication to getting things done whether it’s a huge thing or just the dishes. the way his feathers don’t get ruffled. I admire his cooking skills and resourcefulness. I admire his survival skills outdoors. I respect his personal sense of ethics and morality and how he determines what’s important. I respect his sense of where he fits in the world and what that looks like for him. I respect the constant stream of love and support he offers me… It feels like a third party, an autonomous entity deserving of respect. I respect the way he views partnership and God. I respect his obsession with ketchup. I respect his politics. I respect his financial sensibilities. i respect his friends and family. I respect his problem solving skills. I could go on but i gotta go pack up cuz hes gonna be here to help me move into storage so i can stay with him while i figure out my weird living situation since my real estate deal fell through.

  36.  #36Kim on April 3, 2015 at 9:12 am

    Sounds like a lovely guy Starla….good luck with all the other stuff too!!

  37.  #37nyx on April 3, 2015 at 9:15 am


    We all like to have you here and would want to keep your voice on the blog. Of course you are in a tricky situation, working in his home with things between business and private while having all these strong feelings for him.

    At time when you describe him he seems to be on the fence about things, and I think pulling back from him would make him miss you more. I have a question for you- is he calling you in the evening more often now? And are the calls longer than they used to? Because you answering is likely a way for him to confirm that you aren’t with your CD, and keeping you on phone is confirmation for him you likely will not be that evening. (He might not be doing this consciously, but the effect is still there…)
    Might it be better to some evenings not answer the phone and keep him wondering if he will lose you to someone else?

  38.  #38Starla on April 3, 2015 at 9:16 am

    I will say this started out as fwb only and quickly developed into all this 4 or 5 months after it all started. There is just no hard and fast rule about what will trigger it not trigger a man to chase you. It came down to me simply valuing myself and being soft on the outside to receive and return love. I always put myself first and honor my feelings. However it’s entirely possible that regardless of how i acted he could have chosen me. He says im different from any woman… That he feels addicted to my personality in all the good and bad traits. He says it’s so easy, which is funny because he is always doing the work for us. 🙂

  39.  #39Lovetodance on April 3, 2015 at 9:16 am

    I heard you sweet siren
    I am sorry
    We are all learning here
    Each of our opinions and responses valid
    And part of the whole picture
    None of us knows it all by any means
    But together we have a collection of experiences that we continue to make sense of for ourselves and hopefully help each other with…
    Your opinion and experience is as valid and important as the next
    Please continue to share your wonderful siren-
    Ness here

  40.  #40Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 9:23 am

    Really really lovely Starla 🙂

    Thanks for sharing

  41.  #41Dixie on April 3, 2015 at 9:52 am

    Oh Lovergirl, please stay here. You sound like such an incredible person, and S does not sound like a manipulative or bad person at all! He clearly respects your opinion, and trusts you, and cares for you….. But we can sense here how much love you hold for him. It does sound like he does have deep feelings for you…. How wonderful would it feel to lean back, turn around, find something else to focus on while this man goes through whatever processes he needs to. A man who wants you will move mountains to get to you. You will not need to do anything. Anything. This part I know.

    I know it feels so hard to CD when there’s a darling man occupying your heart. But you focusing on this relationship isn’t going to move it one step forward at all. From a personal standpoint, Lovergirl, I am cheering you on here. I want you to have your cake and eat it too! Much love!

  42.  #42Liquid Light on April 3, 2015 at 10:31 am

    Starla, I find that so interesting that your relationship started out as fwb.

    Congratulations! It sounds like a great relationship!

  43.  #43Indigo on April 3, 2015 at 10:44 am


    I really enjoy your voice on the blog. You sound like a wonderful person, and I feel such empathy and resonance with your story and your feelings.

    A lot of what I have said is probably because I see so much of myself in your situation. And I’m sorry for my part if anything I said sounded judgmental or negative. I’ve been on the receiving end of that on this blog and felt defensive about my relationship, and it did not feel good. So I’m sorry if I’ve made you feel that way. I think I’d just love to see you recognise your worth more, realising how lucky all these guys are to have you, and not the other way around 🙂 I fully believe we must all find our own paths and what is best for us, and no one can choose that for us. If having S in your life brings you happiness and fulfillment in any way, then keep him, but keep reaching for the stars!

  44.  #44Beloved on April 3, 2015 at 10:45 am

    “And I am saying that the clues are usually there, loud
    and clear.
    We just try to not hear them.”

    This so reminds me of the shady work affair I had going with C a couple of years ago.
    I remember sitting down to meditate one day, and the thought “he is NOT the one, baby” crossed my mind.
    I could feel myself fighting and fighting the thought, batting it away, I wanted to get up and run, defend, deny this stupid thought.

    I remember the incredible amount of fear I felt when I forced myself to sit with this thought. I trembled, I wailed, I cried.
    Despite all evidence, despite everything my rational mind knew and understood and kept telling me – HE HAS A GF!! He never contacts me outside of work, he is stringing me along…
    All of this stuff I knew and understood rationally – and yet, EMOTIONALLY, I just wasn’t getting it. EMOTIONALLY, deep down, I felt convinced he was figuring out a way to be with me, was really in love with *me*, and it was just a matter of time.
    OMG I just…love myself so much and shake my head, thinking of it. What a mess.

    Once I could sit with myself and really *hear* what my rational, logical side was telling me…the floodgates opened up. I felt the most horrible feelings. Stuff all the way from birth and infancy came up. I felt deep, primal, wracking cries that had no words.

    I practiced the “falling to my knees” tool more than a few times.

    Because of this, and how unbelievably intense and painful it was, I really really *get* why people stay in denial. It takes so much courage and strength to stay with the feelings that come up, and they can seem intolerable and unbearable.

  45.  #45Rori Raye on April 3, 2015 at 11:05 am

    Posie – What I suggest is some private coaching from any of my great Certified Coaches. You are absolutely fine taking the masculine role – just know that will attract only feminine energy men – AND – if that’s okay for you – go for it! You get to choose what you want! Love, Rori

  46.  #46Labbit on April 3, 2015 at 12:37 pm

    21 Femininewoman — It is so funny that you mention Evan Marc Katz. I’d read some of his stuff on my own and liked it well enough. However one of my sisters, who recently extricated herself from a 3+ year abusive relationship, reached out to me because she wanted some love advice. She tried a few different coaches’ blogs before settling on EMK and ended up buying all of his materials, LOL. She asked me if I’d read the stuff with her and help keep her on the straight and narrow path.

    So we’ve been reading his ebooks and listening to his “Finding Love Online” program together. And the stuff is AMAZING. So good! He starts with a truly warm open that makes him feel like an older brother, and by the end of all his books I felt SUPER inspired even though I’m already in a serious relationship!

    His Finding Love Online was particularly poignant. There are some blunt truths in there but they are delivered softly, and my sister needed to hear them. (I did too, in many ways.) We took his advice in crafting a new online profile for her about a month ago and she’s set out on his 30 date program. She is beautiful but her previous profiles would usually get
    a lot of sex-only interest, a few datable guys and then interest would quickly die off, with her trying to make things happen.

    Her new EMK-inspired profile is SO GOOD, that even after 30+ days she gets 100 new quickmatches EVERY DAY on OK Cupid, has about 10-15 messages from new, very datable, relationship-ready men, AND she’s been carrying on conversations with about 7-8 other men for awhile. She goes on 1-2 dates every week with new men if she wants to, and another 1-2 dates with men she’s been seeing. They are all CLAMORING for her. It’s been so amazing to watch and I’m so friggin happy for her. She is 42 and was so scared no man would want her. Now she has men anywhere from 27-52 dying to be with her. She’s working through her old hurts and building self-confidence like any of us would, but having FUN doing it. I have no doubt she’s going to find the love of her life so soon. And EMK’s two ebooks are similarly inspiring. I learned so much from all his stuff, and the tone he uses in his books allowed me to appreciate his blog in a whole new late.

    Suffice it to say, I’ve become a big fan of his. He talks about relationships from a male point of view but with the feminine perspective spoken for clearly. He came from a healthy family upbringing and adores, cherishes and deeply loves his wife. It’s easy to listen to his advice because he is the kind of man I’d want to marry…sometimes his words read a little rough, but I am now able to see that they’re just truths I don’t want to accept at times. So it’s helping me grow too.

  47.  #47Labbit on April 3, 2015 at 12:39 pm

    Whoops, appreciate his blog in a whole new LIGHT not late. Haha. *blush*

  48.  #48Labbit on April 3, 2015 at 12:46 pm

    It’s so funny to think about my journey. I found Rori first, when I was so stuck in my masculine energy and didn’t know how to be in my feminine energy AT ALL. That led me to Dominique who has helped me to find my inner goddess, embrace her, and slowly make peace with my gremlins. And then that led me to Leigha Lake and Helena Hart, whose books have helped me to define who I am and balance my desires with the seemingly unpredictable things men do. (Things they do which I’m learning are actually quite predictable if I’m really paying attention.)

    And then via my sister we read one of Christian Carter’s books, which made me like him a little more though I’m still not sold on him, and finally to Evan Marc Katz, who is helping me learn the mind and heart of a more emotionally available alpha male (TenderCD is somewhere more towards the middle but it still helps very much). It’s like I had to completely deconstruct myself and now I’m putting together a new me, a much better me. A me that I like all the more each day.

  49.  #49Labbit on April 3, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    On the respect thing Indigo, I would feel much the same. And yet I also agree that it must be true for him, since there is no need for him to lie. Since I mentioned EMK over in the new thread, I will say that I recently read a blog post of his in which he discussed how weird it felt to him in the time right before he asked his now-wife to marry him. He thought he should feel it in his gut, that it would feel so right to him that it would be impossible to be with anyone else. Instead what he found was more of a continuous low-grade happy buzz with her…and worried this meant it was the wrong relationship for him. I hope I am paraphrasing this accurately, I’ll see if I can dig up the post. Eventually EMK came to realize that it was totally the right relationship for him and that he was holding on to some fantasy of perfection he’d made up for himself as a kid, and that the woman in front of him was everything the adult EMK wanted and more. 🙂 His now-wife didn’t pressure him or make ultimatums…she just kinda knew somewhere inside that it was all going to work out and she would be fine if it didn’t. Perhaps D is in a similar place. It also makes me think of K, Dominique’s husband, who also wanted to take plenty of time to make sure the relationship was right before he proposed, long after they’d both dropped the idea of it. And how many relationship experts would have coached her to give up on him and move on? Clearly not the correct answer in that case…it’s all about what feels to right to you. There are best practices sure and the experts speak to the majority. Yours might be an edge case. Or it might not be. I really don’t know.

    I think men and women both have these expectations of HUGE CONFETTI PARTY feelings inside when you meet the right person, and that may happen for a lot of people, but there’s something to be said for just plain feeling good when you’re with someone, feeling loved and totally accepted for who you are. I know soooooo many unhappy couples and I wouldn’t want that.

  50.  #50Siren Angel on April 3, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    Starla, I feel so excited to hear how you are doing! Yeah for you:-)

  51.  #51Siren Angel on April 3, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    Hello Sirens,

    I used to hang out here on the blog in 2011, 12, 13. I had met a very non-committal, marriage traumatised, super elasticelastic rubber band man. Rori and Dominique, and all the wonderful Sirens at the ttime, including you FW, really helpede along. And I am happy to announce we got engaged in February this year 🙂 So, if the Tools workeworked for me (and in our very complicated blended family situation) they can work for anyone who is dedicated to getting better at relationships.

    Love and hugs to all these Sirens,

    Siren Angel

  52.  #52Siren Angel on April 3, 2015 at 2:20 pm

    Oops sorry terrible typing on my pad.

  53.  #53Kim on April 3, 2015 at 6:02 pm

    Siren Angel wow, wow, wow! Congratulations from the bottom of my heart…this makes me so happy!

  54.  #54Lovergirl on April 3, 2015 at 6:58 pm

    I feel baffled by the comments regarding S on this blog. Maybe it is because I know him and I can FEEL how much he likes me. I feel confident that his asking me to buy him toilet paper is not an indication of disrespect or some kind of put down. He simply needed toilet paper, lol, and I happened to be heading to his house. He actually paid me MORE money (another $7) today that he said was specifically for the toilet paper, so I guess the $20 was just because. I had left the receipt on his counter and this time he paid me in person.

    S is not the man for everyone, that is for sure. I feel very strongly though, that he is a wonderful man for ME. He makes me very happy and even his faults are things I can live with. I realize that what I want in a man is different from a lot of other women too.

    Like the whole sexual discussion, it comes up from time to time because S and I have both been involved, to differing degrees, in swinging and open relationships. While some women might have a very hard time trusting a guy like S, due to his past, I do not. I can see that he is a very loyal, good guy at heart and that doesn’t bother me.

    I am not sure that S would be able to be monogamous for the rest of his life, even though I think he has good intentions. I would have to say the same for myself. It sounds good now, but 10 years down the road I have a feeling we are both people that would want things to be open to renegotiation, probably before that, lol.

    I feel confused about the advice not to talk to him on the phone or talk with him, because I LOVE talking to him. He loves to talk and talk my ear off and I love it! Ive always wanted a man who I could talk and talk openly to for hours and he is very much that man. When we first met, we would literally stay up ALL NIGHT talking because we just couldn’t get enough of each other. I understand needing to lean back a little, but if I say something like, that it doesn’t feel good to talk on the phone, that would be an outright lie.

    He has always, until recently, called me almost every night and spoken for at least an hour on the phone. Now that he has started doing it again, it feels GOOD. I feel relieved that things are getting at least somewhat back to “normal”.

    Today he asked me if I would be able to work for him again and I said yes. He offered to pay cash if I wanted to come by his workplace (which is on the way to his house).

    I decided to come and he came out to my car to sit and talk for awhile. He caught me up on the latest office gossip, lol, and complimented my outfit. He said “God, you are so cute”. He was making fun of my new(ish) boots a little- he says they look “hood” because they have fur on them and that “we are going to have to buy you some different shoes”.

    He asked what I am doing this weekend and said “have fun in Chicago”. I said that isn’t this weekend and he seemed relieved. He grilled me some more about the other guy. He wanted to know if he is the type to get around with a lot of women. I said I don’t know and he said “don’t try to play games with me, I know you know the answer to that”. He told me to have fun on my date with the guy tonight and I said he is in Chicago right now. He was like “oh, then he is definitely going on a date with another woman”. (No clue, though the guy calls me every day to “check in” and ask what I am up to).

    Anyway, he surprised me by coming home early from work while I was still at his place. I was getting ready to leave but he wanted me to stay, supposedly to “check my work”. Every time I would get ready to go out the door, he’d say wait…and have something else he wanted to discuss. When I finally walked out the door, he stood in the doorway and called after me and said “you look good today”. I turned around and smiled and said “you too” and he acted embarrassed and said “you are just saying that” and I shook my head at him and walked away. He shouted “nice boots” as I was walking off.

    Then maybe 15 minutes later he called on the phone, saying he thought I would be in traffic. I said no I am at the store buying stuff for my kids Easter baskets. He was asking if I always spend the money he gives me right away like that and kind of lecturing me on money. I said I’ve got two birthdays and Easter this month and have to get stuff for my kids. So he started talking about his mom (who died several years ago) and how she used to make him Easter baskets, even in college. Awww…

    Anyway, I really don’t feel “friend zoned”. I can tell, at the very least, that he is chomping at the bit to have sex with me again. He made a comment about how he just KNEW there was another man in the picture because I had seemed so “nonchalant” about things this time around. He also felt that I was the one that didn’t text him all weekend and that it must be because of the other guy too (which is funny if you all remember how stressed I was about not hearing from HIM).

  55.  #55Beloved on April 3, 2015 at 7:01 pm

    Wonderful news, Siren Angel! I was *just* thinking of you the other day and wondering how things turned out for you. I remember you visualizing the ring on your finger and showing it off to your friends way back when 🙂 I feel happy to hear it’s worked out!

  56.  #56Siren Angel on April 3, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    Awww thank you Kim. I hope all is well with you 🙂

  57.  #57Femininewoman on April 3, 2015 at 10:01 pm

    Siren Angel I feel so happy for you that it all worked out.

  58.  #58Indigo on April 3, 2015 at 11:52 pm


    “S is not the man for everyone, that is for sure. I feel very strongly though, that he is a wonderful man for ME. He makes me very happy and even his faults are things I can live with. I realize that what I want in a man is different from a lot of other women too.”

    I feel the same way about D.

  59.  #59Indigo on April 4, 2015 at 12:02 am


    Thanks so much, and thanks for moving the discussion over to the new thread.

    I am just like you in what you described – the things which are the right things to do don’t feel intuitive to me, in fact they feel totally wrong, and just like you I worry about being able to trust my instincts and my feelings if they are going to lead me astray with men. Overall I feel like my man-picker is fine, but it’s the actual being in relationships and getting to commitment which is a little less intuitive for me. Like you, I’ve pretty much come to accept that men and relationships will be a bit more difficult and a bit more complex for me. I’ve come a long way and learnt a lot, but still at times the road seems pretty bumpy.

    I also totally get what you are saying about EMK’s wife and their relationship, and about Dominique’s husband K. For me I get the sense that there are a lot of similarities with my relationship with D, that we are an “edge” case as you put it. I’ve seen him slowly change and evolve over the time I’ve known him and a lot of things in our relationship are smoother and easier than they used to be. For me, this is really all about him and his journey to the commitment and relationship in the end. As far as I’m concerned he just has to come to it in his own time, and whilst it may be confusing for me, I realise I can’t pressure him or do it for him. Yet there is an inner knowing in me, just like you described, that I just somehow need to kinda be around and that things will come right and unfold eventually exactly as they’re meant to.

    Thanks for all of this – it’s so helpful. And yes, the guy at my work is totally hot! I think it’s totally good for me to notice 🙂

  60.  #60Zia on April 4, 2015 at 1:58 am

    Lovergirl – sorry, but my views echo those of the other sirens here. There is no high degree of difficulty. You’re offering to cook for him, running errands for him, working for him, buying him toilet paper, why on earth would he need to step up? He is getting everything he needs and doesn’t have to put an ounce of effort in.

  61.  #61Zia on April 4, 2015 at 2:00 am

    The whole situation feels icky to me. I remember how it felt to be in that situation. And there is no way I will ever accept crumbs from a man ever, EVER again.

  62.  #62Zia on April 4, 2015 at 2:08 am

    Labbit 46 – I was part of his focus group coaching for about 6 months and found it incredibly helpful 🙂

    Also lovergirl – no one here thinks he is a bad guy. I am sure none of us think that about the guys we were in in the past, I sure don’t. But what I do know is how different *I* feel now that I am with a man who courts me still every day even after a year, who tried hard to win me over, who makes me feel good, who doesn’t get jealous or make me jealous, who tells me I’m pretty and wonderful and the light of his live, and makes me feel special and important and loved. There has not been a single day in the last year that I have doubted how he feels about me. Compared to all my previous relationships where I spent the majority of the time anxious and wondering what he felt, what he wanted, where it would go and whether or when it would end. Those guys weren’t bad. But I didn’t love myself or put myself first, and I accepted crumbs from them. It was, and always has been about ME.

  63.  #63Zia on April 4, 2015 at 2:10 am

    Labbit 48 – your journey sounds very much like mine 🙂

  64.  #64Labbit on April 4, 2015 at 4:41 am

    54 Lovergirl — I feel incredibly triggered by this comment, and somewhat hurt. I really don’t understand what it is you want.

    My understanding is that this is a forum where we can come talk about our feelings, our relationships, and seek support and feedback. Yet I see only defensive responses when a Siren gives feedback that doesn’t match up to the internal story you’ve built around S. Perhaps the feedback is wrong, perhaps it is right, it’s up to you to take it and use it the best way you can for YOU. Yet all I see here are Sirens giving you feedback based on Rori’s principles and you getting defensive and upset at that. I feel weird and uncomfortable about this, and a little unsafe. I want to help and be supportive and yet I fear getting attacked every time I respond to something you’ve said. That feels icky.

    Am I incorrect to think that you are looking for external answers to an internal issue?

  65.  #65Labbit on April 4, 2015 at 4:41 am

    Indigo & Zia — 🙂

  66.  #66Femininewoman on April 4, 2015 at 5:03 am


  67.  #67Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 7:39 am


    I do not know what to say. I felt shut down and like I was being attacked, ganged up on and judged for loving S. It felt like my situation was being made into something it is not and like I needed to protect myself and S from negativity. I felt unsafe posting here. Comment 54, I guess was simply trying to get back on here and explain myself, let people see that its not this awful situation that it is being made out to be. I feel there is improvement. I am HAPPY with it. I am proud of myself for the baby steps I am taking with S.

  68.  #68Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:00 am

    I have a little more time today and will try and address some of the comments to me specifically-

    Victoria (6)- Thank you for your sweet comment.

    Indigo (7)- I am not sure of his reasons, but I do not FEEL “used”. It just FEELS like he wants me around and in his life. Perhaps I am overfunctioning, but I have stopped some things, such as cooking for him. I haven’t done it in months and he knows if I were doing that, he would be paying for it. He MISSES my cooking and will make jokes about it, but I haven’t actually cooked for him since before Christmas. He still made that comment that I am so good to him, but really I haven’t been doing jack, lol.

    I feel like I DID set the boundary when I told him it was painful to give advice about other women. That is what I was trying to do and he hasn’t asked since or brought any of it up.

    Kim (8)- I don’t feel like he is REALLY treating me like the “fun friend”. I feel there is a very good chance he was feeling me out. He NORMALLY doesn’t ask my advice about other women and it only came up after he started getting a little jealous about the guy he calls my “new boyfriend”.

  69.  #69Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:07 am

    Dixie (9)-

    It feels good to hear of the improvement you had with D when you pulled back and stopped overfunctioning. I do feel there are ways I have been overfunctioning with S and that I can pull back. I don’t feel like a sucker though, or that the toilet paper was a really big deal or that it means he isn’t into me. I feel more amused by that than anything by him asking for that. He is paying me and our situation is not the same as it might be if I weren’t working for him.

  70.  #70Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:15 am

    Kath (10)-

    I feel you are trying to help and have good intentions, but this comment is triggering to me. I don’t understand why you are telling me not to accept his calls or talk to him. I am not interested in ending things with him.

    I don’t feel he is treating me poorly, disrespecting me or that he is unworthy of me. S is a great guy and a sweetheart. I don’t feel that he is neglecting to see the good in me. S is actually very appreciative of me. Notice his comments about how good I am to him, how much he values my opinion, how beautiful he thinks I look. He says a lot of very positive things about me.

  71.  #71Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:21 am

    Iamhis (11/12)-

    Yes! I agree very much with you here. Yesterday he was talking about my family, asking questions about my brother that I don’t talk to, saying he thinks my grandmother (who is more of a mother figure to me than my “mother”) is really nice (he talked to her on the phone and helped her with some insurance stuff before since that is his job and she needed advice). He was asking about how I spend my money and what I do for holidays with my kids. It feels to ME like he is leaning FORWARD. I suspect his questions about other women were also intended to feel me out, as there isn’t actually another woman in the picture at this point. I’m not sure where his head is exactly, but it FEELS to me like he is coming towards me, not moving away.

  72.  #72Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:27 am

    Kim (13)- If this were something he KEPT doing, I would agree with you. However right now and with him being bothered by my supposed “new boyfriend” I don’t feel like he is REALLY friend zoning me. It still didn’t feel good to hear and I let him know but the overall vibe was that he wanted to know what I think about all this stuff, and if the relationship he wants isn’t with ME, then why would it matter?

  73.  #73Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:29 am

    Femininewoman (14)-

    I feel bewildered and a little bit attacked. Why would you say I use men and sex to “beat myself up”? I do not feel that S is abusive in any way, so I am not sure why you are saying that either.

  74.  #74Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:33 am

    Kim (15)- Yes, if he were asking me those things and I weren’t working for him, it would be completely different. As it is now, with the arrangement we have, its really not so bad, I don’t think. It felt a little iffy to be asked to buy his toilet paper, lol, but not to the point where I felt it was a negative commentary on how he feels about me. He was extra thankful about it and paid me more than it cost, so I don’t feel so bad about it either.

  75.  #75Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 8:47 am

    Femininewoman (16)-

    This comment feels kind of harsh. Since there is no actual “other woman” in the picture, I don’t feel S asking me theoretical advice is quite the same as if he were asking me advice about an actual person. Keep in mind that I recently have admitted to going out on dates with and having sex with another man. It makes sense that he would try and even the score, to avoid feeling emasculated.

    S is not a lie down and take it kind of guy, for sure. I am perfectly within right and reason to be with other men at this point, but it doesn’t mean he is going to like it and I feel good that it is getting a reaction out of him.

    Perhaps that will motivate him to move forward with me and perhaps it won’t, but isn’t that the whole point of CDing? I’m triggering HIM, so it makes sense that he is reacting. I don’t feel he deserves to be thrown out “cold turkey” or to “fall flat on his face” for doing what men do when they are faced with those kinds of feelings.

  76.  #76Starla on April 4, 2015 at 8:59 am

    Lovergirl, I am loving reading you expressing your feelings about everyone’s comments and thoughts. I feel and sense you and who you are. And it’s so beautiful and powerful. I know it’s triggering, but seeing you authentically respond to triggers and stick up for yourself is gorgeous. And gorgeous practice, too. I feel so connected to you sometimes…. I get this image of you as an angel with a broken wing, who will be back in her glory and power of she just rests and lets the wing heal instead of trying to fly with it before it’s healed. S honestly sounds like a great guy… It is a clear case of heart/mind disconnect for him, but the more you plainly express how you’re feeling and what you don’t want (and without explaining yourself too much in a logical, thinky way), the more he can authentically experience and feel YOU, which is how men connect in that deep inexplicable way to a woman. I love seeing and feeling you in your responses to the women here. Your true feelings and desires and love for yourself are so beautiful. It’s great practice to do it here with the women when triggered by them. I can’t wait to see how much S comes back to you as you get the hang of it more and more. Sending you lots of love!

  77.  #77Starla on April 4, 2015 at 9:01 am

    *power if she just rests

  78.  #78Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 9:07 am

    Femininewoman (19)-

    You don’t believe him, but I do. I know S and he tends to be a straight shooter. If he didn’t feel that way he wouldn’t say he did. I also know a lot about his experiences in the swinger lifestyle vs mine, and yes, the women he is referring to are into a lot more crazy stuff than me, lol. We’ve had talks about this in the past and S is protective about me and keeping me safe from certain aspects of things he has been involved with.

    (20)- I don’t feel he was being disrespectful at all or that he saw leaving me $20 as treating me like a maid. He was being nice and appreciative. He gave me more money the next day, so that apparently was just an extra tip, which I think is a nice gesture.

    (21)- Well, its quite obvious that he IS feeling threatened. He keeps making comments about the guy and asking a million questions.

  79.  #79Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 9:21 am

    Iamhis (25/26)-

    Thank you. It feels good to remember that I get to make my own decisions on what to do with S and how to react to him, that what I FEEL is valid, whether it matches up with others opinions or not.

  80.  #80Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 9:26 am

    Kim (27)-

    It hasn’t happened yet that he offers to tell me about women he dates. I did ask him about his coffee date the other day and he said he guessed she was nice and that it was just 45 minutes over lunch. He expressed that he didn’t know if it was a good idea for us to talk about that stuff because he said then I would always be bringing up women and saying “what ever happened to so and so”.

    I wasn’t really sure what to make of that comment. It indicates, on one hand, that he expects me to still be around and these other women to be disappearing from his life. I also feel that he is trying to play down his interest in other women, which is probably GOOD for me.

  81.  #81Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 9:32 am

    Starla (28)-

    Thank you. I agree that I need to be less accommodating and probably bow out of conversations sooner if they feel uncomfortable. I do feel like I have made some progress, even if I am the only one that sees it, and I feel like I am getting some results. My baby steps might not seem like much to others but they are a big deal to ME.

    I really do want to get a session with a coach. I have noticed a lot of them do it over skype, which would be quite challenging with 5 kids in the house, lol. I still need to try it.

  82.  #82Indigo on April 4, 2015 at 9:46 am


    Thank you for coming on here and explaining more about your relationship. I get a much clearer sense of S and of you and of the dynamic between you, and I can see how there is a lot of connection there and a lot that would make you happy.

    I’m in a similar situation where I have an unusual relationship with D, and it’s hard to explain it in a few blog posts and virtually impossible to understand it unless you experience it firsthand. It’s very easy for people to get the wrong impression, and all I can say is that I am a big girl and making the choices for me that I think are right. As you are. And I hear you about the baby steps. They ARE a big deal. I’ve been taking hundreds of baby steps in the last two years, and just today I was able to look back at the progress I’ve made. For a start I can live on my own now in my own flat, and take care of myself and my own emotions, and two years ago that would not have been possible. I was too anxious.

    Anyway, I’m going off on a tangent but this is all to say that I understand and we support you.

    Most of the coaches also do sessions by phone as well if that suits you more.

  83.  #83Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 9:48 am

    Femininewoman (29)-

    I don’t feel angry or like I have any reason to be, with S. I am not entirely dependent on income from him, though it is very nice to have and I am thankful for the opportunity. I have no desire to make him feel rejected and imagery of him crawling to me on his knees makes me feel uncomfortable. I don’t want that from him. I respect and love him. I do not want him to become a “distant memory”.

  84.  #84Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:04 am

    Labbit (34)-

    Yes, there is definitely some good advice in there and things to consider. I know I do not need to justify myself but I guess I felt like I did and the idea of trying to explain all the things that did NOT feel right was overwhelming. I am “listening”. I am paying attention to what people say but ultimately I am going to go with my gut and what feels best to me.

  85.  #85Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:11 am

    Nyx (37)-

    Thank you. Those are some good things for me to consider. He did used to call me in the evenings a lot, and now he SEEMS back to “normal” but it may have something to do with keeping tabs on me as well. 😉 I know men have a tendency to do that. In fact the other guy, that is in Chicago right now, keeps calling and asking things like “what are you doing?” I have been wondering how to respond to THAT because it feels a bit stifling.

    S has been saying things like “have fun on your date tonight” and I have reassured him that I am not going out. Perhaps I should be more mysterious about it. Even once, when I answered the phone on a Sunday night after not responding within 15 minutes to some texts, he said “oh I thought you might be on a date or something”. He said “have fun in Chicago” and I told him “that is not this weekend” and he asked what I am doing. I mentioned some things with the kids for Easter and a family BBQ for my mother’s bday. He said he might go to his Dad’shouse. I’m sure he was fishing around for info to make sure I am not with another man. I can very much feel his concern about it.

  86.  #86Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:17 am

    Dixie (41)-

    Thank you for your encouragement and reminder to focus on myself and that I don’t have to “do” anything. That part is the hard part for me, because it feels so counterintiutive and frightening. I am scared that if I don’t do anything he will just drift away and find someone else.

  87.  #87Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:23 am

    Indigo (43)- Thank you. You have offered me a ton of very insightful and helpful advice, so sorry if I was being defensive here too. I know I can be oversensitive at times.

    (58)- It is nice to feel understood.

  88.  #88Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:29 am

    Zia (60/61)-

    I probably do need to up my degree of difficulty. I feel like I should take some steps to do that and that is my next project. 🙂 I still want to work for him, but I should probably turn down the opportunity once in awhile and perhaps not be so accommodating. I want to work on cutting the phone conversations shorter and being a little less available.

    I don’t feel like I am “accepting crumbs” though. S pays me well and he takes me out for dinner and pays for it, frequently. We aren’t currently having sex and I know he wants that too, so its not like he’s getting everything he wants from me either.

  89.  #89Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:43 am

    Zia (62)-

    I think what I must not be conveying properly on here, is that I DO feel really good with S! The times I have not felt good, I have been expressing to him and writing about here. I am working on setting those boundaries. When I get negative reactions on here, I wonder if it is because people are only hearing about the inner, nasty voice, thoughts I am having.

    The MAJORITY of the time I feel GREAT with S. He makes me feel really happy 🙂 He tells me I am wonderful and special to him too. He makes me feel more loved than any man ever has. He hasn’t SAID he loves me, but a lot of the things he says and does make me FEEL that way. As far as jealousy, he’s not a jerk about it, but it is clear he is feeling some at the moment. Given the situation, I think that is actually a GOOD thing. It shows he cares about the possibility of losing me.

    I think S is very much my “mirror”. He struggles with a lot of the same confusion that I do regarding what he wants in life. We are both torn between the whole monogamy/swinging thing. We are both unsure about what level of commitment we want with ANYONE, yet at the same time want someone to be there forever. Really, he is a reflection of ME and some things I need to get straight about what I want.

  90.  #90Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:52 am

    Starla (76)-

    Thank you very much for this comment. Yes, I need a lot of practice and a lot of HELP getting it right. I want to love myself and what I really want is to see S come to me. That would be the happy ending to MY story that I would love to see.

    I get very triggered when people suggest that I would be happier with someone else and should kick S to the curb or make him out to be a bad guy, because I know in my heart that he is one of the good ones. If it doesn’t work out with him, its not because he is a bad man. I am trying NOT to see it as my “fault” though either and that is a struggle.

  91.  #91Lovergirl on April 4, 2015 at 10:56 am

    Indigo (82)-

    Congratulations on all of YOUR baby steps and how it has been working for you. That is an encouragement. I really do appreciate having support too.

    I feel that S and my situation is “hard to explain” sometimes too. I KNOW he cares about me though. The feeling there is very strong and obvious to me, being right here in the thick of it. 🙂

  92.  #92Liquid Light on April 4, 2015 at 10:57 am

    A bit of rambling ahead…

    I’m turning 50 next month and dreading it. I really hoped I’d be in a relationship or at least be dating someone that I’m enthused about by then. It would make turning 50 so much easier. Bummer.

    And I haven’t gotten laid in over 2 years! Unbelievable to me. Partially its because it took me so long to get over my ex and partially its because I’ve been really cautious. But now I’m feeling ready and would be nice to break the dry spell before my birthday. Hahaha! There’s someone I like who has been in and out of the picture (mostly out) but we seem to keep dancing around each other. Last time we saw each other he suggested we go to a really nice inn for dinner and said we’d have to stay there because they serve 7 course meals and each course has a different wine pairing and we wouldn’t want to drive afterwards.

    I was enthusiastic about the dinner but hesitated about staying the night there. Now I’m reconsidering and may feel him out about that with a feeler text. Would be a great way to ring in the next half century! Hahaha And I’m not getting any younger. Sometimes I worry that my sex drive is so low now that this dry spell might be my new normal. I don’t really even miss it that much. That’s scary.

    I’ve got a lot of men that I think would be happy to help me end my dry spell but they all turn me off in one way or another. I’m super picky and most men are just not appealing to me. I had a date last night and I felt like I was out with a Stepford Husband – he had absolutely no personality, had this weird smile plastered on his face, and everything that came out of his mouth was about as predictable as the sun rising. So boring!

    Another new coworker has chosen to compete with me at work. I was trying to help her out with one of her projects and she gave me a hard time. So then I just decided to let her figure it out on her own. It’s going to be challenging because everyone passes the buck there and it can be really hard to get the information you need sometimes especially if you have a tight deadline which she does. I tried to give her the exact information she needed for her project but she questioned my advice. Oh well, she will learn the hard way as the project will probably derail. It’s really too bad that so many women at work behave like this. When I get a whiff of it now, I avoid them at all costs. There are very few women that act professionally and don’t complete with me. Its sad and strange. I find that the men are a lot less inclined to do this.

  93.  #93Liquid Light on April 4, 2015 at 11:07 am

    PS: I got a stellar recommendation from one of the managers at work. It felt really good to be publicly recognized for my hard work but now they will probably hate me even more. Oh well. I’m realizing that I’m not really going to make too many friends at work anyway and I’m looking to create my social life outside of work. For me, keeping the two worlds separate just works better.

  94.  #94Starla on April 4, 2015 at 11:21 am

    Lovergirl i would just take the topic of your love life completely off the table. It’s taking too much of your energy and he seems to send you mixed signals whenever the topic comes up. “s, it feels weird answering about my life life to a man that isnt pursuing me. It would feel so good to talk about other things…what do you think?”

  95.  #95Starla on April 4, 2015 at 11:23 am

    *love life. Man, sorry for all these typos. Im on a phone and not a legit keyboard. 🙂

  96.  #96Liquid Light on April 4, 2015 at 11:23 am

    Lovergirl 89 – that was a very insightful post!

  97.  #97Dixie on April 4, 2015 at 12:50 pm

    Lovergirl…. Your responses here are powerful and I’m loving the way you express your deepest feelings with clarity and openness. Beautiful.

    I agree with your comment in 89, that often the men we attract are “mirrors.” D has been a mirror for me in ways that almost are funny, but the more I grow into myself, the more I can appreciate in him; the more I allow my own softness, and easiness, the more tender he becomes too…

    Yes, I agree with you also- S is in your life for a reason, and you get to discover this. Loving your awareness.

    Much support to you in your journey! xo

  98.  #98Dixie on April 4, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    Lovergirl…. Your responses here are powerful and I’m loving the way you express your deepest feelings with clarity and openness. Beautiful.

    Yes, I agree with you also- S is in your life for a reason, and you get to discover this. Loving your awareness.

    Much support to you in your journey! xo

  99.  #99Dixie on April 4, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    Haha, double post while trying to edit. OOPS!

  100.  #100Indigo on April 4, 2015 at 1:02 pm

    Posie 3,

    Here are my thoughts, use them or don’t use them:

    As far as I am concerned we should be leaning back most of the time, but there is nothing wrong with leaning forward now and again if you have no expectations of the outcome, or if you want to experiment and see how it feels. My point is, there’s nothing inherently “wrong” in leaning forward. BUT – bear in mind, it WILL feel unnatural because we have been taught our whole lives to lean forward and not to lean back. We are in our masculine energy for so much of our lives that of course it feels natural.

    The thing is, for me, leaning back is about more than just what we “should” do as women. It’s also about respecting where the man is at. It’s about not pushing or pressuring a relationship. I’m sorry but the impression I get from your description of BCF is that he’s not ready for the same thing as you are. We can try to coax and entice and lean forward, but in the end a man is where he is. Leaning back reveals this.

    I wish you luck

  101.  #101Kath on April 4, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    Hi Lovergirl,
    Can I just say I love the way you have taken the time to respond to all of the comments you have received and I am sorry if you felt triggered by anything I said to you. Sometimes other people’s situations can trigger us and I’m afraid I was triggered by some of the things you said about your relationship with S. I can see there is a strong connection between the two of you but I am concerned about some of the things you said and the strongest message for me came through when you said:” I am scared that if I don’t do anything he will just drift and find somebody else”.
    If this is really how you feel then I think you should look at this deeply. Why would this be scarey to you?- If you don’t do anything and he does drift then surely he isn’t the man for you. If he really really wanted to be with you in a one on one committed relationship he would let you know and you would be in no doubt about his true feelings for you. I’m sorry, perhaps there has been too much shared on here but I do admire your honesty and strength and I look forward to hearing how things work out for you. Much love xxx

  102.  #102Zara on April 4, 2015 at 1:43 pm

    1 Copy-posted from Rori’s blog: Rori Raye’s Rules For Landing The Perfect Man

    What IS a perfect man, anyway?

    If you believe you’ve ever had one, or have one in your mind, take out a piece of paper and write down the “qualities” you think made him “perfect” or WILL make him “perfect.”

    Now take a look at your list. Maybe you’ve written down things like “attractive (or even handsome), financially secure, sensitive, likes animals, generous…”

    Well, my Rules are this (actually – it’s just one Rule to start): It doesn’t matter what you’ve written on the list, or how good he looks on paper, or even how good he looks in real life. His qualities DON’T MATTER.

    The only thing that matters is this entry on your list: “When I’m with him, and even when I’m NOT with him – I feel loved, cared for, happy and secure. “ That’s it.

    Who he is and How he is mean nothing. How you FEEL with a man is ALL that counts. And I don’t mean how you feel about HIM. I don’t mean how much YOU love HIM, or how excited you feel, or how much “chemistry” there is, or how much “fun” you have together, or how great sex is, or how much you have “in common.” None of that means ANYTHING. We’re often devastatingly attracted to men who are emotionally unavailable or not mature enough to truly be in a committed, real relationship, and then end up literally devastated.

    The only thing that means anything is how you feel about YOURSELF in his presence.

    So take out your piece of paper and turn it over. Now write a list of how you want to FEEL about YOURSELF in your “perfect” RELATIONSHIP! (Remember – this is about the Relationship, not about the man.)
    Let me know how it feels to look at relationship this way, and we’ll talk more and more about how all this works.

  103.  #103Zara on April 4, 2015 at 1:47 pm

    2 Copy-pasted from Rori’s blog: The Only Thing That Matters About A Man When What You Want Is Relationship

    Here’s a letter from Amanda, and instead of giving her and you specific steps on how to feel better that are already in Targeting Mr. Right and Modern Siren – I want to go “bigger” and give you a way to “re-frame” the whole idea of what “relationship” means to you, what you want with it, how you thrive, what’s important:

    “Rori, I’m dealing with what seems to be the end of a relationship right now (we’re on a ‘break’) because he realized he just wasn’t ready for the level of intimacy that was developing. When he leaned back, I did too. And we haven’t spoken in over a week now. So now, I’m struggling with the ‘focusing on me’ part.

    What keeps throwing me off balance is one simple thing… when I focus on me all I feel is deep sadness. Even though there are other guys in the ‘rotation’ and I did everything according to the program and I still have other things to fill my day/time with… I still feel very deeply sad about not having him in my life since we had a very unique and special connection. (unlike any of the others in the ‘line up’).

    How do I refocus on ‘me’ and start making ‘my’ life fun again when the only thing I’m feeling is loss and sadness? (I’ve also lost many important people in my life so this is a big trigger for me).

    Any suggestions? Thanks, Amanda”

    My Answer:

    Amanda, you sound so lovely – AND – none of the “connection” part means ANYTHING if a man isn’t “ready.”

    The ABILITY and readiness to DO relationship is always the number ONE thing about a man you should fall in love with.

    He shows his readiness and ability not by talking, or giving great sex, or saying any words at all.

    He does it by ACTION.

    It’s clear as day.

    And that has to be SO at the top of your list that every other consideration pales by comparison.

    Once you learn to love unconditionally and unsparingly, once you learn to open yourself 100% of your life, and not pick and choose when to open and when not to, once you learn the difference between loving and “investing” – everything gets clear and easy.

    When you realize that loving simply means FEELING love, radiating love, sharing love, doing loving things, saying loving things – without any concern at all for what comes back at you – you realize this, too:

    If you’re doing, saying, contributing love out in the world, or focused at someone else in a way that makes you feel LESS LOVING to YOURSELF – then it isn’t love at all.

    There’s got to be a hidden motivation underneath.

    Something is driving you that has nothing to do with love, but with what you want.

    And that’s the recipe for disappointment, anger, regret, a feeling of “waste.”

    Most of the time – what we “think” we want is only stuff that’s been programmed into us over our entire lives.

    In truth, we may never have experienced what we would “really want” – so we don’t know how to even imagine it, much less wish for it or want it.

    We go to our “default” wanting: Wanting an experience we’ve once had, seen, read about.

    If you’re “investing” in someone or something – it’s just like any kind of literal “investment.”

    You’re logically “giving” something of yourself in hopes you’ll make a profit back!

    In the case of a man – you’re investing time, energy, heart, money, expectations, hopes that something will come back to you. That somehow, he will “snap to” and give you back what you’ve given him.

    It is – plainly – a “deal.”

    And – in fact – all “relationship” is some kind of “deal.”

    The question we women always face is: Is it a GOOD deal?

    In other words – is our “Return of Investment” likely to be “on the ‘up’ side”?

    And just like in business and finance – numbers don’t lie.

    For a relationship with a man: Actions don’t lie.

    The only cure for “Overfunctioning” and “Overinvesting”and “misreading a man” is to gain some new “perspective” by gaining NEW experience.

    This means opening your mind to the possibilities you’ve never even considered.

    To possibilities you know nothing about. Ones you haven’t seen, experienced, heard of, or read about.

    The unknown things that are around every corner.

    Love that may not seem likely at first, but grows.

    Love that seems to die and then gets reborn.

    Love that comes from friendship.

    Love that comes from the purely physical.

    Love that comes out of nowhere in seconds flat.

    Love that shows up after years and years with the same man, years of beating your head against the wall with that same man.

    Love that comes when your back is turned to it.

    The one sure thing is that if you keep hammering at something that is moving away from you – you lose your love for yourself.

    If you keep hammering at a piece of glass as if it were copper that’s aching to be sculpted – you end up with shards that hurt and make you bleed.

    Some things are not meant to be what we want them to be, and some men are not meant to fit into the world we want them in. They are good for many things, but not those things that make you love yourself even MORE.

    Go with this:

    Once you truly have yourself – regardless of how much pain and sadness you feel – the door to love opens up. It opens way wider than you have the ability to imagine when you’re still looking for the pieces of yourself that are now sticking to other people.

    Let love flow out of you so that it sticks to other people. There’s an endless supply of that.

    AND share and give your energy, time, heart, calendar, holidays, privacy (the “numbers” of “Love Investment” – the stuff that sticks and is not on endless supply) only with men who are already clearly investing in YOU!!!

    Love and logistics are NOT the same.

    Don’t measure love going out. Measure investment.

    Okay – When you feel like “falling in love” and feel like “not holding back, giving it your all, going for broke” with one man – do it!

    AND – all you have to remember is to pay attention to how you feel about YOU. If you love yourself more as you give him your all, then you’re likely making a great investment.

    If you love yourself less, and wonder why he isn’t “giving” as much as you are to this relationship (and find yourself stuck in the “why” of him and his behavior and thought process) – then ask yourself honestly if you’re investing wisely.

    It’s okay to Circular Date while you’re in tears over a bad investment with a man you still love.

    Hopefully – you will love them ALL!

    It’s okay to cry over dinner. It’s okay to leave in the middle of the movie to cry in the bathroom. It’s okay to not want to go anywhere and still drag yourself out of the house to be ‘social’ and practice the Modern Siren Tools on anyone who shows up.

    Much better to do anything that feels like love to yourself, than putting yourself on hold.

  104.  #104Zara on April 4, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    3 Copy-pasted from Rori’s blog : Don’t Be Friends

    The truth is – we KNOW a friend from a lover. Hanging out with a male “friend” can be fantastic. My men friends saved my emotional life countless times, and those memories are some of my best.

    Unless a man is gay, however (which is why gay men are often the best friends) – you can TELL if he’s hanging out with you because of genuine friendship or if he’s “interested” in you in more romantic ways.

    And it feels GREAT if a man is “interested” in you and wants to be around you – especially if he’s romantically interested in you, because that adds another dimension that makes you feel attractive and sexy in his presence – not just like a “pal” – and if what you pick up from him is that he’s not romantically interested – as long as YOU don’t have those kinds of feelings for him – it doesn’t MATTER! You can enjoy being with him no matter WHAT his level of interest, as long as it feels like fun – and as long as you don’t CARE.

    The reverse is completely NOT GOOD for you – where you are hanging out with a man who has expressed “friendship” in words, deeds, and energy – and YOU feel MORE.

    Just don’t do that. Don’t hang out with men friends when you wish there were more. Just don’t do it.

    Now – here’s a wrinkle. We’re friends with people because we feel attracted to them. This includes the “geeky” guy we know who’s funny and makes us laugh. This includes our girlfriends. Anyone we feel good around, anyone we want to talk to, be with, stand near – we feel attracted to. And I don’t just mean “platonically.”

    I know this is hard to embrace. But the truth is – there is an erotic component to this attraction. The next time you find yourself talking with someone you couldn’t IMAGINE feeling erotically attracted to – a homeless person, a person you might label as “ugly” – or the wrong gender – if you can embrace the truth that you are erotically attracted to that person as well as attracted on intellectual and emotional levels – you will get this so much faster.

    In other words – if you like being around a person – there is a part of you that feels erotically attracted to them. It doesn’t mean you find this person appropriate for a relationship, and it doesn’t mean you feel romantically attracted to them. It just means you feel sexually, erotically attracted.

    And what happens with most of us? When we’re faced with an erotic attraction to someone “inappropriate” – we shut down.

    And I don’t want you to do that.

    I want you to stay open to ALWAYS feeling erotically attracted to YOURSELF – and so you will ALWAYS be radiating a sexual, sensual, erotic vibe. We’re all afraid of what will happen if we open ourselves up like that – and I want you to embrace that fear and open up anyway.

    So – what you may feel from a man who says he wants “friendship” is that EROTIC component he also feels. You may just hook it up to your OWN feelings for him, because these energies bounce off of each other, or you may mistake that erotic energy for ROMANTIC feelings.

    This is how it gets so confusing with a man who says “friends” but feels like more than that to you. This is why a man can sleep with you and still consider you just a “friend.”

    It’s not cruelty. He’s not trying to hurt you. It’s just simpler for him than it is for you.

    So don’t go there. Just say NO to “just friends.”

    Circular Date. Do the Whole Targeting Mr. Right “Diva” stuff – and it will get clear to you…

  105.  #105Zara on April 4, 2015 at 1:54 pm

    4 Copy-pasted from Rori’s blog: Forget The 4 Man Dating Plan – Try The 10 Man Dating Plan

    Every time I sit to write about Circular Dating, I feel as if it’s so obvious. So natural, so logical. Exactly the way we women should always be thinking in terms of men, and dating…and then I look at my emails and the comments to this blog, and all the articles I read out there on other websites and blogs – and I’m amazed…

    …it just couldn’t be further from “obvious, natural, logical.” We women are still stuck in the “Girlfriend Trap,” and the hardest job I have as a coach is getting women to even TRY Circular Dating.

    It’s like pulling teeth.

    It’s as if I were asking you to do something horrible, dreadful, impossibly difficult.

    And, if you’ve never done it – yes, Circular Dating feels frightening, it feels wrong, it makes you feel bad and guilty, and it just feels like “I shouldn’t be having so much fun and so many options in my life.”

    It feels the absolute opposite of what your mother did. (Although, if you really research this – you’ll find that’s not exactly true. My mother and my husband’s aunt BOTH Circular Dated.)

    It’s possible that in our Mother’s time, sex was not in the mix, so it was easier to “date around” without seeming “cheap.”

    These days, though, everyone assumes you’re sleeping with anyone you date (and often we are) and so it seems trashy and impossible to manage.

    So – what if we take sex back OUT of the equation?

    Or take a different view of the possibilities of sex – given what we now know about men?

    For instance – what if we could have sex with only one man but still “date” as many other men as we want? (If only we could get ourselves to WANT to…and that’s the challenging part here…)

    Or – and let’s go for broke here – what if we could have sex with EVERY MAN we want to?

    I’m sure I’ve shaken you up by now – I just want to open up some possibilities you may have never even thought of. I want you to start thinking about this: This is YOUR life. This is about what YOU want.

    And although it’s been drilled into us that we’re supposed to “toe” some kind of line for a man, even while he’s hemming and hawing and taking his time and stalling and withdrawing and going back and forth – that’s NOT the way to keep a man ATTRACTED to you.

    Being “constant” and “virtuous” is NOT the draw it once was – not in this day and age of porn queens becoming mainstream, socially acceptable actors and celebrities.

    What IS magnetic to a man is a woman who knows what she wants and won’t take less. A woman who waits for no one. A woman to whom the word “second-class” doesn’t exist. A woman who is so comfortable with herself that she can be open, warm, welcoming, inviting, and RECEIVE love from a very grateful man.

    In the bookstore, I’ve seen a book with a title something like what Circular Dating’s about – it’s called the “4 Man Plan.”

    Well – let’s just forget all about the number of men – all you want is more than two! – and let’s forget about trying to “Plan” this out. (Two becomes an either-or thing, and that’s just as bad (or worse) than dating one man at a time – and our Plan should be about getting you to Happy Ever After – not any short term plan of how to manage all these men.)

    So – how could you possibly manage TEN men at the same time? Well, let’s get a little “loosey-goosey” here. Let’s get fanciful and make dating a little less serious than we have.

    Hey – there are 7 days in a week, and several hours each evening. You could fit in ten men easily if you saw two a night for coffee and two on the weekends.

    And – it hardly ever works out that way. Usually, the 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 or more men are spread out over the week. Some never call back, some pursue you. Some you have a 45 minute coffee date with and never ever want to see again.

    It’s a rotation, a revolving door – a Circle with YOU in the center and all the men you date circling around you.

    I’m going to be talking about this a lot in this “Dating” category – so look for posts, follow along, ask questions, and let me know how Circular Dating works for you – so we can inspire more and more women to try it – and then you’ll ALL have incredible success.

    Think of it this way…the more women we can get doing the Rori Raye Tools and Circular Dating – the more we’ll be training MORE men out there on how to behave. We IMPROVE men for each other. The man you don’t want to see after one coffee date many be PERFECT for another woman. And he’ll be better for knowing you – even for 45 minutes.

    The more we work at this TOGETHER – the more happiness we will EACH have.

    Let’s go do this thing!

  106.  #106Dominique on April 4, 2015 at 3:13 pm

    Lovergirl – 54 – Everyone is different, and every relationship is different. What matters is how YOU FEEL. And if this is feeling good to you for the most part, then this is good FOR YOU, at least for right now.

    Regardless there are always opportunities to learn more about yourself as well as for growth and blossoming.

    From everything you have said, up until this post – 54 – I haven’t seen anything untoward or weird, and it’s because YOU haven’t felt weird about it.

    I understand the women here feel protective of you, and this feels lovely, yet this is also your path.

    I hope Indigo doesn’t mind me bringing her up without her being here; she has been very open about though here. She too has a relationship which feels good to her, yet it’s different from the norm whatever normal is.

    And as with her, this it’s all okay if not wonderful. For YOU get to decide every step of the way what feels good to you and what doesn’t, what’s acceptable and what isn’t, what’s a deal breaker and what isn’t.


  107.  #107Dominique on April 4, 2015 at 3:30 pm

    Siren Angel – 51- This feels SO amazing to read. <3

    Love to you.


  108.  #108Zia on April 4, 2015 at 3:43 pm

    Lovergirl – you’re spot on about him being your mirror – I feel super happy that you’ve realised that 🙂 because what can happen is that once we start healing ourselves, we attract and may start being attracted to different people. Once you start healing yourself, he might not be the one you want around anymore….. or he might. But most of us here who have done intense healing (I had NO idea how emotionally unavailable *I* was, I was always blaming the guys!) have been through it, and have seen first hand how men we woukd never have considered before we healed became attractive and vice versa 😉

  109.  #109Mandy on April 4, 2015 at 11:51 pm

    Ugh. J said maybe we should go to the strip club for his and my female friends birthday. But since I’ve been going with J he’s stopped getting aroused afterwards, so I’d end up all aroused with no release, and right now my belly is distended due to medical reasons, so I don’t feel that sexy, I feel vulnerable and I told him I don’t feel like watching his energy go to other women right in front of me when I’m the one who feels vulnerable and needs it. Took alotta guts for me to say to him. But now he probably thinks I never ever want to go back. I SO should not kick myself or feel guilty about it!

  110.  #110Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 12:30 am

    Starla (94)-

    Your comment is kind of a springboard for some things I am feeling I should say to S when he brings up the new guy again. If I am really honest about how I feel, it makes me feel guilty and disloyal when S ribs me about my “new boyfriend”.

    I feel like saying something like “when you tease me about him, it makes me feel guilty and disloyal towards you. I don’t want to feel like I am doing something wrong. What do you think?” Because, not only is that the truth, but it forces him to think about what he is actually doing/attempting to do and whether or not he WANTS me to feel that way. If I confront him he either has to stop in order to prevent me from feeling bad, or he has to admit to himself that he WANTS that and there is a reason behind it (he doesn’t want me with another man).

  111.  #111Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 12:47 am

    Liquid Light and Dixie (96/97)- Thank you!! 🙂

    Kath- Thank you too and in answer to your question, I feel like it is probably just ME. I would probably feel that way with ANY man, afraid of being abandoned. It’s those nasty voices inside, telling me that every man will leave me.

    One of the nice things about S is that he is actually very “steady” and unlikely to just disappear. When we had our very first disagreements, my first reaction was to cut him off and be done with him for good, because I was used to men who dealt with ME like that and ran off at the first sign of “drama”. He was adamant that he didn’t want me to do that and that we should talk and work things out. He has shown me that he has the propensity and willingness to stick around. So really, I think its me.

  112.  #112Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 12:52 am

    Thank you Zara, for resurrecting some of Rori’s old posts. They have some good advice.

    Dominique- It feels good to hear from a coach and get your perspective. Thank you very much for that and it is a relief to realize I am the one in control here and that paying attention to my feelings is the way to go.

  113.  #113Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 12:54 am


    Yes. S has taught me many, many things already, about myself and about my relationships in general. I personally hope that he sticks around but whatever happens, I am learning all the way.

  114.  #114Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 1:09 am

    Today I got an interesting call from S. Two days ago I had told him about a guy emailing me on the swinger site and claiming there were pictures of me on someone else’s profile. He didn’t say what profile and I didn’t want to email this guy back because I’ve been ignoring him for over a year.

    So apparently, today, S found the picture. It is me, fully clothed, but in a tight fitting dress, sitting on a bed. (I don’t take nude pictures with my face in them, though there are people that do, plastered all over the site). I was livid because I do NOT, for discretion purposes, want my FACE on a swinger site.

    I’m not even sure how this guy got that particular picture of me. It was taken by another guy. But this is the THIRD time someone has tried to put MY pictures on THEIR profile, without my permission. Its infuriating and I reported it.

    I am just amazed that S found this. He would have had to have browsed through like THOUSANDS of naked photos of people to find one of me on some random guy’s profile. It is a profile I had never even seen myself, though I finally figured out it is this guy I had slept with once, at a party (his wife was also there and the man I was with at the time).

    I’m like wow…he filtered through piles of pornography to find a pic of me in my clothes. Now THAT’S dedication!!! 😀 Kidding…

    Im not exactly sure HOW he came upon it but I am surprised that he did it so quickly. Its possible he came upon it by accident, I don’t know. He did tell me that he would look when I mentioned it and I am very glad I said something and he didn’t come across it by accident and think I was with this other man.

  115.  #115Victoria on April 5, 2015 at 2:01 am

    Dear Lovergirl,
    Why do you use a swinger site? How about a regular dating site?
    I am asking out of pure curiosity and I hope you don’t mind the question.
    Equally importantly, why would a single man of 35 do it? For someone who says he wants to have children and a family it looks like he is not doing the meaninful thing to get him what he wants.
    Are you so out of his league in terms of looks that he would never get a single woman with your looks to date him?
    I hope you don’t mind me asking, I hope only for the best for you.

  116.  #116Indigo on April 5, 2015 at 4:20 am

    Oh Sirens, my nasty voices are pretty loud at the moment. I made possibly the mistake of visiting my family yesterday and I felt so invisible. My half brother is visiting and they have never even attempted to hide the fact that he is the golden child. All I wanted was to excitedly tell them about my new job – my stepdad didn’t even attempt to be in the room for my visit, and my mom kept looking bored and changing the subject to talk about movies or nonsense like that. I just felt like I have felt most of my life with them – that what happens with me and to me is my own affair and that I should fend for myself. They’ll happily take anything I give and never spare a thought for what I meet be needing or feeling. I felt so sad and invisible like I just want to belong somewhere, like I just want to be REALLY important to someone.

    I feel a bit down.

  117.  #117Indigo on April 5, 2015 at 4:29 am

    They didn’t offer to help move a solitary teaspoon when I moved into my new apartment, they didn’t even ask to come and see the place. I don’t think they could name a single one of my friends or tell you what I did at any of the places I’ve worked if their lives depended on it.

    The reason I say my nasty voices are loud is because this lifelong experience sometimes makes it difficult for me to tell what I should expect from my relationships with other people. It hurts me in my most tender places to feel invisible and yet I battle to know how to make myself feel seen or how to know when I’m important and when I’m not and what to do about it.

  118.  #118April Rose on April 5, 2015 at 5:56 am


    Patterns with family are hard to break.

    I’m guessing it may or may not help you to feel less powerless if you consider that it is *you* who subconsciously takes on the invisible role when you are with them.

    It is the same for me in my family. I consider that they are utterly disinterested in me.
    And yet it feels more powerful to choose to believe that I am inviting that scenario. Or that part of me is maintaining a distance with them for fear of their disapproval. Better that they know nothing/aren’t interested, than them taking an interest and judging me badly.

    In my case it is another facet of working towards choosing relationship and intimacy.

  119.  #119Indigo on April 5, 2015 at 6:47 am

    April Rose,

    Thank you for the hugs dear 🙂 they are appreciated.

    I feel very interested in this viewpoint and would love you to expand more on it if you wish?

    This feels true: “I’m guessing it may or may not help you to feel less powerless if you consider that it is *you* who subconsciously takes on the invisible role when you are with them.”

    Not sure how to unwind this though? Maybe I need to sit with it for a while.

  120.  #120prplpsn28 on April 5, 2015 at 7:09 am

    This post resonates with me. I think that’s what happened with H. My actions and my neediness made him feel unsafe. Ugh.

    I still hear from H periodically. Seems as tho he wants to keep in touch. I can tell he cares alot. Just can’t do the whole committment thing.

    I’ve been trying my best to move on. I’ve been dating. Met one guy a week ago from POF. It went really well and we have plans to get together again. He’s been keeping in contact. I’m just leaning back and trying not to get my hopes too up. Don’t want anything to happen too quickly.

    Happy Easter everyone!

  121.  #121April Rose on April 5, 2015 at 7:44 am


    Did you get Rori’s latest e-mail? The one with the ‘how to coach yourself’ tool.

    It’s wonderful. I’m going to try riffing with it here on the blog.

    You start with what you perceive as the problem, and then process it in such a way that you end up pouring love on it and on all the feelings that come with it.

  122.  #122April Rose on April 5, 2015 at 7:45 am

    Happy Easter Purple!!!

  123.  #123Azure Blu on April 5, 2015 at 7:45 am

    {{{{Indigo}}}} #116-7
    Ohhh… lovely Siren… warm huggs and compassion to you
    i am very sorry to hear how invisible and hurt you felt after your visit with your family…

    It sounds awful to actually know one of your siblings is favored over you…

    I too struggle with feelings of being invisible…
    Only after feeling what adoration, acceptance, being #1 in someones life (my fiance’s love for me)
    Did I begin to stand up for myself with feeling words, softness AND action…

    I will share a bit of the journey i have taken to
    changing my feelings of invisibility in my family…

    It has taken years but now my family respects me more and more… because I respect ME more and more!!!
    and now… sooo many changes in our family’s dynamics and I believe it is because I changed ME (the only one i can change)

    I agree with April Rose… I have seen how *I* did perpetuate keeping myself invisible…

    I have worked on healing MY relationship with my mother by CHANGING ME
    I started actually accepting her and giving her respect for who She really is…
    asking for what I needed…
    “I love you very much, we dont agree on politics or religion… let’s not discuss those things as we know what each other thinks about these.”
    So over the years I do pray with her,
    I have realized I do believe in prayer
    (just not the way she does)
    and I let it go and just indulge her… she is 89yrs

    She now feels unconditional love from me… and she has changed soooo much… MUch more tolerant and loving… she is VERY narcissistic and cold…

    as for my sister
    I Stopped making the trips to see her…the phone calls (an hour away… she NEVER came to see ME) (VERY self centered, NEVER listens to anything about me or my life) talks non stop about herself and her problems…
    I made her less and less a priority in MY life…
    this was difficult as she was an emotional & financial support for me (I worked with her on projects)
    Just quietly went on with my own life…

    Several years ago after taking this stand more and more… she ask me if anything was wrong…
    I shared with her how I didn’t feel heard MOST of the time/it felt like a one sided conversation…
    she has tried to switch this over the years
    but she still does go on and on about HER life…

    AND since Rori and alll the ways I love myself MORE
    am happy with ME,
    am MUCH more self assured…
    I see alll the ways my family does love me…
    and take a stand OR let the other stuff go…

    I now, Do feel, supported AND loved by my family!!
    and I think it is because
    I NOW feel supported by ME… baby step by baby step

  124.  #124Azure Blu on April 5, 2015 at 7:47 am

    Brava and congratulations on
    how far you have come!!
    Living in your own Apartment AND a new job that you are loving!!!
    and also this hot guy at work who sounds yummy!!

  125.  #125Azure Blu on April 5, 2015 at 7:50 am

    Ahhh… so good to hear from you…
    I feel happy to hear about this new CD from POF…

  126.  #126Azure Blu on April 5, 2015 at 7:52 am

    too all sirens on Siren Island…
    Happy Easter…
    wishing you all New, fresh, fertile, rebirth on this
    wonderful Springtime celebration!!

  127.  #127Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 8:56 am

    Victoria (115)-

    I am also on regular dating sites (Plenty of Fish and OkCupid). The swinger site has been more about curiosity and experimentation, plus easy sex when I didn’t have the time or opportunity to be in a relationship.

    When I first got divorced my children were still too young to leave alone and the only time I could go anywhere was when I had money for a babysitter or their dad took them. I didn’t want to bring men around my children, and just didn’t feel emotionally ready for serious dating. I hated the tediousness of going out on dates and having to wait for sex, because I didn’t have the time. So if I had a night alone I would sometimes opt for no strings attached sex. After a over a decade in an almost sexless marriage, I just wanted to have SEX, and that physical connection.

    One of the men I met told me all these stories about his swinging experiences and I became intrigued and wanted to check it out. So I signed up for the site, met a guy immediately and we went on a date and had sex. The following night he took me to my first swinger party. We ended up in a semi “open relationship” for several months and went to more parties together. I continued to go to parties with a couple different men after he and I ended things, and have met single men off the site just for dates/sex.

    Now, I am still very picky about who I sleep with- so the majority of the parties I have been to, I didn’t even “play” except for with the man I went to the party with. I still found it fun to get dressed up, go out, meet all these sexually adventurous people and see all the interesting things that were going on. It has been eye opening.

    S and I met on the swinger site. We hit it off immediately and could tell that we would like each other outside of swinging. It was kind of funny because he happened to have seriously dated a girl I went to high school with in the past, and the weekend before we met, he had met up with her and two of my best girlfriends from back in the day for a night out. (They didn’t date in high school, but it was several years ago and he had another serious girlfriend since then).

    NEITHER one of us wanted those girls to know we were on a swinger site, lol, so that was our little secret. Anyway, his ex that I went to school with is GORGEOUS. She was Ms. Popularity, a cheerleader, just one of these girls you would love to hate except she’s too nice to have any reason to. I don’t know her that well, but she and I have some of the same friends, and dated some of the same guys in high school. We don’t even live in the same city and one of the other guys I met off Plenty of Fish had been dating her right before also.

    I think S could get any woman he wanted, really. HE doesn’t have as much self confidence as he should, but he’s tall, nice looking and is very outgoing and sociable. He’s got a little bit of a “nerdy” look and a few extra pounds but he’s still someone I can be proud to be in public with. Back when he was younger and more in shape, he actually worked as a male stripper for awhile, but he is embarrassed about that, lol.

    HIS reason for being on the swinger site is also “easy sex”. He says its just so easy that its hard to have the motivation to go out on endless dates trying to find the right woman. Before I learned about the swinger community, I didn’t know this, but there are countless white couples on there looking for well endowed black men to sleep with the wife or take part in gangbangs. S has been capitalizing on that.

    Anyway, when he is in a serious relationship, he stops doing the swinger thing, or has for the most part- he did mention one girlfriend that was willing to partake in some stuff but regretted it. That’s one of the things he was asking me when he called the other night, if I thought he should renew his subscription on his swinger profile now that he is thinking about getting into something more serious.

    I didn’t want to make that decision for him and apparently he decided to renew since he was on there again and found that picture of me. He had asked me if I kept my swinger profile up when I was dating seriously but I haven’t dated anyone seriously since I have had one.

    S and I actually went to some parties together in the beginning but he is absolutely not okay with it now. Even then he said he felt like he had to be watching out for and protecting me the whole time and that it made it hard for him to focus on anything else. I never did sleep with anyone else at those parties and it stressed S out when men asked him if they could have sex with me. I actually went several months without being with any other men at all.

    Then he said that he felt he was getting “too attached” to me and that it made it hard for him to envision me being treated “like a slut”. We actually stopped having sex for a couple of months due to this, several months ago. He said spending so much time with me and sleeping with me was making him want a real relationship with me and feel like he couldn’t share me with anyone else. (This was after the first miscarraige). Only he didn’t feel like we could do that because of my situation with having so many kids, etc.

    So we did the friend thing for a little bit but it was upsetting ME. I didn’t want to be the “friend”. So we went back to having sex again…and again he got me pregnant and I miscarried. So we are kind of back to where we were then. Only this time, I’m not feeling the desperation to sleep with him. I’m trying to take care of ME and he’s the one that seems to be longing for the sex. He’s made comments about it and even said he would be willing to have sex again he would just want to wear a condom and not get me pregnant. I blew him off and have not given him a chance to sleep with me.

    Anyway, S has been saying since we met that he feels “torn” between swinging and monogamy. I’ve been very much in the same position, since before we met. I am also torn as to what I want. This is one of the reasons I say he is just like me and my “mirror”.

    He feels most of the women in the swinging community are below his standards, and most of them are married anyway, but he is willing to sleep with them for easy sex. I feel the same way in that I had to relax my standards a bit to sleep with some of the men on there. There are some good guys out there too, but of course some are married or in a serious relationship.

  128.  #128Dominique on April 5, 2015 at 9:57 am

    Oh dear Indigo – 117 – I so feel you on this one. Maybe different circumstances, but the feelings feel so palpably the same, the feelings of invisibility, the not good enough feelings, the feelings of feeling so alone in this, in life even. Yes I understand. This may not help much, yet it might. It took me up until well into late thirties to come to terms with this with my parents. And that things will unlikely change with them. I can’t even suggest turning to friends, for as you’ve experiences, they tend to be absent when most needed.

    I’m sorry for not having an easy answer for you. Maybe this meditation might help.



  129.  #129Dominique on April 5, 2015 at 9:58 am

    Lovergirl – You’ve been on my mind much of last night and still this morning. I came across these two articles, and though they don’t deal directly with what’s going on with you, in some ways they do. I hope they help some.



  130.  #130Dominique on April 5, 2015 at 9:59 am

    And the second one –


    And by the way, I do a lot of email coaching which might be easier given your situation and schedule as well as being more affordable.

    Love to you.


  131.  #131Siren Angel on April 5, 2015 at 11:41 am

    Beloved , wow, thank you for thinking of me 🙂 that’s so sweet!

    Thank you Dominique 🙂 as you know, it doesnt mean things are perfect… in fact not today, but I work on myself constantly.

    Thank you Feminine Woman 🙂

  132.  #132RileyTheOwl on April 5, 2015 at 12:31 pm


  133.  #133Mandy on April 5, 2015 at 12:49 pm

    I’m feeling something but I don’t know what it is. This is the first time this has happened since I started the Rori programs. except for when I went numb from taking the bus to and from a work internship for three months.

    I am mentally tough; I can keep my weirdness and weird emotions in neat little boxes inside me tucked away for an opportune time for them to be taken out of their drawers. Boy do I hate putting them in there, but it’s a bit necessary.

    SO it’s like I have all these different emotions at once, and i have to choose the emotion at hand…and deal with it. Then onto another, and then onto another.

    They overlap sometimes. I can feel bitter-sweet, and I can feel happy and angry…or I can feel angry when I should feel happy, or scared when I should feel excited.

    How confusing is this? LOTS of anxiety, especially over my swelling tummy. I don’t get it, it seems like it’s inflamed. I’m not pregnant…I took a test even, just in case the one time I did have sex 4 months ago didn’t result in anything…I mean, my IUD made me have a period for like two months, so I was guessing it was hormones, but I haven’t bled now for over a week and I still feel swollen. I feel so out of control.

  134.  #134Mandy on April 5, 2015 at 1:06 pm

    PS – J says he sees depression in me. He sees me feeling depression. He is concerned and wants me to have more things to do like classes.

  135.  #135Posie on April 5, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    Thanks for your comment indigo, much appreciated. First, no disagreement here, he’s got something blocking him. But there was/is something there… Something neither of us can quite say no to even though maybe we should for now. We are both struggling in and out of eachother. And I’ll also say he’s got no issues in the masculinity front… He’s about the most manly guy I’ve ever met.

    As for leaning back…. I guess it seemed to create a scenario where he could either succeed or fail in my eyes. black or white. Maybe I wasn’t doing it right. I also think that what drew him in at first was that I was so natural and calm and playful. I would lean in and lean back and then lean in again and that was fun for both of us. But at the first sign of trouble I stopped leaning in ever, stopped encouraging any kind of forward momentum, even gently and just left him to do it. And then when he did come around I was so darn passive about it that I don’t think I was much fun. I was kind and warm and all. But probably awkward and left him with a feeling of uncertainty.

    I don’t know what will happen next. I’m sure to find out this week. I don’t hinge my hopes on a huge relationship at this point. But maybe we will be able to indulge in a little chemistry.

  136.  #136Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 6:02 pm

    Oh Indigo- (116/117)

    ((Hugs))) I know all too well that feeling that I don’t matter to my own family, that they don’t care about what is going on in my life. No one ever asks and when I try to tell them, many times they don’t seem to be paying attention. What has upset me even more is that they sometimes ASSUME my life is completely different because they don’t bother to talk to me and find out. Yet, I feel like I am always the one caring about everyone else when they need a listening ear.

    Do you feel that this is an area where you overfunction? After reading on here a bit, I wonder if that is my issue. I’m always coming to other people’s rescue, taking care of them, so they call me when they need something or want help, but just expect me to give and give and never receive.

  137.  #137Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 6:19 pm

    Speaking of family, oh my goodness-

    I went to a get together at my mother’s house this weekend. I should probably clarify that she has never been much of a “mother” and that I consider my grandmother more of a parental figure than she was.

    Anyway, my mother was like the worst possible role model in the world when it comes to relationships with men. Hers are notoriously awful and she just goes from one abusive man to the next. Some have been physically abusive and others, just emotionally, but it is very painful to watch.

    Her latest, is this man that came at her recently with a “dagger”, threatening to stab her. She threw a little get together to try and get her mind off of him, which I thought was good, but then he called and she was going right back to talking about how she can’t leave him.

    She says she is lonely and feels she has no other choice at her age. She’s 59 and could pass for 35. He’s an overweight, 60-something, redneck biker with a big long beard and he’s sickly and on disability. She does a lot of taking care of him, but he does nothing for her whatsoever. She thinks he’s attractive and is just positive that all these 20 year old “hot chicks” are throwing themselves at him when he is not with her.

    One of my brothers (who is 25) and I are just sitting there shaking our heads and saying um, no, its not like that at all, you can do WAY better than him and just need to get yourself out there!! We were trying to tell her she should get out of there before he does something even crazier. She is totally hardheaded and won’t listen. She says there is nothing she can do without him, that no women her age have any activities going on in her area, that all that is left in the dating pool is just ugly redneck biker men and they are all the same.

    So incredibly frustrating. She says he “loves” her and we are saying people who love you don’t threaten you with knives. I asked what he would do if she stopped taking care of him (thankfully they don’t live together, but he is like 2 blocks away) and she said nothing he would never help her out with anything and doesn’t. Uggggghhh….

  138.  #138Lovergirl on April 5, 2015 at 6:29 pm

    Dominique (129 & 130)-

    I love the articles and that you were thinking of me! Thank you so much!! You have such a sweet spirit about you and I would love to do some email coaching with you, especially since you have been reading some of my story on here already. I am going to try and save up some money to do so. Hopefully it won’t be too long- Easter and Birthdays this month as well as a new puppy that someone abandoned and we are taking on. :p

  139.  #139Beloved on April 5, 2015 at 9:41 pm

    I’m feeling fear, dread, dark and crawly in my belly.
    TG *still* hasn’t come clean with Roomie J why he is really upset with her and is telling her that she can only have her male friend over once a week (wtf?). I don’t feel it’s my place to say anything and the withholding is creating yuck yuck yuck feelings in our household.
    I feel fear of conflict – that if we upset TG too much we’ll get kicked out and personally I will have nowhere to go and no $ to go anywhere. I hate this feeling.
    I don’t know what to do, I don’t know if I should just tell her, or say something to him, or trust that it will work out or what.
    I feel *so* vulnerable.

  140.  #140Meyling on April 5, 2015 at 11:08 pm

    Dear Sirens,

    I am new to this and just want some suggestions. I met W by being setup by my sister and her soon to be husband. W is my future brother-law’s brother, from a different state (1200 miles away). I didn’t pay attention to him at first. He was an attractive man with a great body. But not my type. He gave off the impression that he might have been a police officer or a military man. And I have sworn off men with guns. You know the type, authoritarian, etc. ( no offense, just had some bad experiences, especially because they are drawn to me and I to them and not wanting to repeat bad habits).

    After ignoring him for most of the night and watching women throw themselves at him, I was ready to leave until he sat down an began a conversation. Needless to say, after we realized that 14 hours had lapsed, I was feeling elated. I wanted more. By-the-way, yep, he is ex-military (special forces) and an ex-police officer. Go figure.

    You see, I am a highly successful woman with a number of businesses, highly educated, well read and travel extensively, i.e. the type of women who has falsely come to the conclusion that men are intimidated by me. So I had resigned myself to believe I am not the relationship type. I digress.

    I aggressively pursued him and he responded until I put on the brakes when it came to sleeping with him immediately after our long conversation. Then the dreaded nothing! I decided to leave a day later, when even though he said he was interested, he didn’t ask for my number. My sister and her husband believed there was a love connection. I, not so much. What they didn’t know was, I secretively left my number for W and he didn’t call.

    While surfing the internet, I came across Rori’s book and read it in 1 sitting. I realized what I have been doing wrong all these years. OMG…. I have been the man in a very expensive power suit and high heels. Lol well, I figured I have been doing this relationship thing my way for many years to no avail, 1 unsuccessful marriage, 2 failed engagements, and a string of unfulfilling brief relationships. What did I have to lose (the definition of insanity)? Right?

    I started working the program. It worked! Four days later. He called, I listened, not the active listening but, the feminine listening. Then of course old habits surfaced and the conversation strayed to a place I didn’t want. Bummer…. Instead of giving up ( remember I am an A-type personality). I again read the relationship book in another 1 night sitting. But this time, I read the book with pen and paper in hand. I didn’t call, nor did I text first. My responses to his texts were brief. Again, things turned around immediately!

    Now we are going on 3 weeks of conversing back and forth, mostly texting. HELP!!!!! It’s not enough for me! I am feeling too vulnerable. I know. I know. I am suppose to feel this way. But it’s too foreign.

    He is coming back for another event at my family’s home. And yes, he decided to come back a few days earlier because he knows that I will not be working at that time. But, he didn’t ask me to be there and I won’t assume.

    I long to be asked come back earlier than I planned. Hell, I long for him. But, I am not ready to sleep with him yet. Not because I don’t believe it will be wonderful. I just feel it’s too soon. I don’t want to regret it. My habit is when I do sleep with men too soon, I regret it, leave and make it my business to never see them again. I don’t want this to be a repeat of past behaviors. Nast voice. Nasty voice.

    I know I have been long winded and there is so much I haven’t shared about my lapses into my masculine roll. I am requesting any suggestions how I get out of my own way and stay there? You have no idea how difficult it’s been not to be the aggressor (or maybe you do). Please assist me.

    Thank you in advance,


  141.  #141Victoria on April 6, 2015 at 12:27 am

    Lovergirl 127,
    What you wrote was very interesting for me to read.
    It is very refreshing to hear such an honest story.
    By the way, if I did not have a full load of inner barriers about s*x, I would totally love to try it with a “well endowed black man”, with or without my partner around. I absolutely love the idea, except that I don’t think F. will able to handle it emotionally. Oh well :-).
    Other than that, I can see why your man is conflicted/confused in his desires… I have a friend who situation similar to yours (except that she has only two kids and they live with their father). One of the men she is dating loves to be with her, they are very good friends, but he hides their relationship from his parents and friends so they would not think he is dating a divorcee with children, when he “should” be dating a single woman and have his own biological children. They did actually have a discussion around children and she told him that she would be happy to have a child with him if that is what he wants… Turns up, he actually wants to have children from a woman who has no other children. At the same time, he is totally uncapable of having any relationship with anybody else but her (he tries to meet women but they never stick around). I told her he is so spoilt from her, because she has the liberated mind (sexually) of a woman in her 40s and the caring approach of a mother, and he is hoping to find these qualities in women who are neither one nor the other.
    Unfortunately, she never managed to upgrade their relationship to where she wanted to be – i.e. out in the open for his friends and relatives to see. But she does not know about the Rori tools, may be I shall just enlighten her :-).
    I am sending you hugs, and wishes for a lonely spring!

  142.  #142Victoria on April 6, 2015 at 12:29 am

    Urrrg, lovely, not lonely! Sorry for the typos!

  143.  #143Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 12:33 am

    April Rose 121,

    Thank you, that feels good.

    Azure Blu 123,

    Thank you for the hugs. Thank you so much for sharing your story about your family, I found it immensely helpful. Particularly the bits about stopping overfunctioning, putting in boundaries or letting stuff go and loving myself. It was nice to be reminded that I am here for ME 🙂 I find your journey very inspiring. And thank you for the support in 124, it feels good 🙂

  144.  #144Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 12:40 am

    RileytheOwl 132,

    Thank you for the hugs. I hope you are feeling a bit better x

    Dominique 128,

    Thank you for understanding. Unfortunately when I try to go into your site for the past couple of days it gives me an error message saying my IP address has been blocked? It looks like just a little tech gremlin. I’ve emailed the address they say to email but no luck as yet, maybe you could look into this for me?

    Yes, I know there are no easy answers. It’s so funny that you mention about friends being absent when needed at times like this because I have experienced this over and over. Acceptance does help. As does knowing that I’m not alone and that there are others who know how I feel.

    Like I told you earlier, one nice thing about it was that it allowed me to turn to D – I opened about my feelings about this and he held me close, he seemed to feel so needed. I felt so “with” him in that moment and it was lovely.

    Love to you <3

  145.  #145Victoria on April 6, 2015 at 12:43 am

    A short update on me.
    Spent the weekend with F., had a good time but nothing overexciting. He has been sleepy and does not have too much energy. The good news is – I was leaned back, did not initiate anything, gave no ideas, no suggestions, just went with whatever he had to offer. The bad news is – he is kind of boring. He is also out of shape (smoker, high blood pressure, slightly overweight) and has a hard time keeping up with my energy level. At the same time, I can totally see that he loves me and wants to please me, he is just doing what he can… I also love him, but I have this sadness because I know long term this can probably not work… It has been very hard for me to keep my mouth shut and not tell him that he needs to change. I actually told him that I am concerned because he seems more out of shape than usual and I suspect he got insulted… I need to learn to keep my big mouth shut.
    I am so used to him, with the good and the bad qualities, I have no desire to be seeing anyone else, and also I feel it would be somehow mean to him if I go back to CDing at this stage. Because I can see he is doing everything that he can. I feel it would be mean to demand more… All right, all right, I am overthinking it, focus back on ME, please.

  146.  #146Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 12:47 am

    Lovergirl 136,

    Thank you for the hugs.

    “Do you feel that this is an area where you overfunction? After reading on here a bit, I wonder if that is my issue. I’m always coming to other people’s rescue, taking care of them, so they call me when they need something or want help, but just expect me to give and give and never receive.”

    Yes. I do feel I overfunction and this is a good observation. Yesterday I drove over to my family’s house, I invited myself, and I was trying to “tell” them about my job. All overfunctioning. I overfunction probably quite a bit with them and this observation from you and Azure Blu was very helpful to me. I probably don’t open up about my needs and feelings as much or get ready to receive. There’s one thing which sticks out in my mind which was that I gave them a TV which was actually a present given to me, but I already had one and figured that maybe it would be useful to them. They didn’t appreciate it and I actually felt a bit bad/resentful about it afterwards. I could definitely stop my overfunctioning with them

    Thank you for sharing about your family and about your mom. It must be so hard for you. But it feels good to know that other people understand what I experience.

  147.  #147Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 12:47 am


    It feels nice to see you here.

  148.  #148Victoria on April 6, 2015 at 12:47 am

    I am also not allowed to your site for the last couple of weeks, I wrote to the webmaster, but no luck.

    I think it is probably because I had a server migration and your server does not like my new server.

    Thanks for checking on it, I would love to be able to access your site.

  149.  #149Kath on April 6, 2015 at 1:04 am

    Hey Siresn,
    For the past few days now I have been an emotional wreck!- so many feelings being stirred up and finding it hard to deal with them. They mainly focussed around me feeling that I hadn’t been right in the feelings I had about R and the triggers he set off in me. And the triggers!- OMG- I had a light-bulb moment and realised that we mirror each other in our emotional unavailability. I did know this already but it always seems to catch me off guard!
    I also took a long hard look at the feelings and emotions that had been stirred up by seeing him again for these past few weeks and I realised that I had “gone along” with everything he said- the things we did, the frequency we saw each other-and he was quite “in my face” about the number of times we saw each other in week-it was quite overwhelming- I didn’t really have time to catch my breath!- And that had been one of my issues from the relationship before. I noticed that I became instantly more anxious, more stressed because I found it quite hard work to feel relaxed with him because he seems incapable of just “being” in the moment and I work hard to maintain that sense of being in the moment. I also realise that my sending my speech to him, my boundary text if you like, that it triggered something massive in him!-
    I guess what I’m trying to say is that March was one hell of a month!- I have grown a bit more and have come to accept what I want and need.
    As if the universe knows that as well, I am now receiving regular messages from a guy on the dating site I’ve re-visited. He even sent me a wonderful message the other night whilst he was on holiday in India!- April could be interesting!

  150.  #150nyx on April 6, 2015 at 4:30 am


    Maybe your guy already is on medication, if not- close family member’s husband had high blood pressure and NO energy, just started on medication and within in days became totally different. Much more energy, much more sex, much less collapsing in sofa after work…

  151.  #151Kim on April 6, 2015 at 4:42 am

    Indigo, I totally get where you come from with your family. Since my grandmother died, I only have limited interaction with any of them for the same reasons…I have never felt wanted, seen or like my needs mattered except for her. I got so used to it that it my MO, so when with them, I let them steamroller me…and worse, lately, well the last time I saw them was a couple of years ago (we still speak but I live far), when I actually do try to apply the prinicples of telling them how I feel about some things they say to me, I get ridiculed.
    They are good people, i am mostly speaking about my father and his wife, but they are just different. I am letting them be for the most part, meaning our interaction has whittled down to a minimum and I am actually pretty ok with that…
    I have amazing friends that make up for my lack of a good and close family and I have for years bemoaned my lack, and now I am happy and have accepted it as part of my life.
    I do miss having a family but it doesn’t make me feel bad or sad anymore, just nostalgic when I see other families havig fun together…

  152.  #152Kim on April 6, 2015 at 4:50 am

    144 Victoria, I hear you!
    My guy has much lower energy levels than me and is also a bit overweight! I have to catch myself a lot, not saying stuff I might regret lol.
    We had a great weekend, very active, paddle boarding in The Keys and all that, but well, he is always on the fence about doing something active, so I have to be enthusiastic because if I say, ah let’s not, he’ll be happy LOL.
    Turned out I had a couple of boating invitations on Sunday…and he said he wanted to do stuff at home…but then changed his mind and took us out on his canoe, but I am convinced it only happened because he saw himself sitting at home, and me in my bikini on other guy’s boats….lol….of course, I would not have been sitting at home, he knows me too well, but most likely just gone to the beach…I was very surprised he was up to having 2 active days in a row 🙂
    So yea, thing is, I could never be with a couch potato, I would go crazy. I need those shared things…

  153.  #153Victoria on April 6, 2015 at 5:18 am

    thanks a lot, he takes medication but only when he has a hypertonic crisis, does not take something constant.
    He is in fact a doctor… And has a very stressful job, with night duties. I love and hate his job.
    I am very cautious about my weight, fitness level etc., very healthy living minded, and he knows that and tries to keep up… Actually, he does not try to keep up, but rather complains all the time that I will leave him for someone who can keep up with me (and, as you can see, the thought has crossed my mind).
    I see he does things for me (he offered for us to go to the gym together on Saturday, and then to a nice spa) and I am greatly appreciative, but I see that he does it just because of me and would never exercise independently out of his free will.
    Similar to Kim’s man, I think he comes to the gym with me mostly because he fears I will be talking to other guys there (of course I would :-).
    I just need to complain a little bit…
    It is probably too much to expect someone who is both a doctor and fitness-minded…Actually, what bugs me most of all, is that he “knows” all these things about health, smoking, stress, and still, has chosen a life-style that is totally not conducive to his health… I never dare to speak to him about it though, I do not want to lecture him on health, see how ridiculous it is…

  154.  #154IamHis on April 6, 2015 at 5:24 am

    I went to get coffee at the convenience store this morning with messy bed head, lavender PJ pants, and a hooded sweatshirt. There was a really hot guy leaning against the wall of the store right where I parked my car.

    I was fumbling for my keys and he was like, “Nice car.” & I was like…”Thanks…it’s my Mom’s…”

    He laughed.

    I still couldn’t find my keys and was feeling a little panicky.

    “Lock ’em in the car?”

    Feeling extremely embarrassed at this point, and I just let myself feel it.

    “I hope not. I’m going to check and see if I left them inside…”

    He smiled

  155.  #155Femininewoman on April 6, 2015 at 5:52 am

    Dominique I know you and a few more Aries girls are having birthdays soon so I just wanna holler a early HAPPY BIRTHDAY 🙂 🙂 to all.

  156.  #156nyx on April 6, 2015 at 6:05 am


    The guy I speak of is quite young and very fit- but has a very stressful job. Also going with the macho culture in the north, he kept his condition secret till he was close to lose his job… his wife found out accidentally. She is amazed at the difference and at how quickly his energy levels rose. Maybe not that hard to convince a doctor to take a few more pills? 😉 Easier than the other changes…

    Anyways, I am grinning at how aware he is he has to put in effort to keep you, and at how willing he is to. Same about your guy, Kim. You two are the prize!

  157.  #157Victoria on April 6, 2015 at 6:11 am

    Thank you, your comment was very sweet, you have a very good point, and gave me a huge smile.
    Thank you so much!

  158.  #158Victoria on April 6, 2015 at 6:15 am

    By the way, I want to ask him to stop smoking…
    I just don’t know how to do it.
    I am a former smoker and I know how hard it is, but I also know it is absolutely possible to do it.
    Shall I try feeling messages?
    Like, I feel so good when you don’t smoke :-).
    I am afraid I will be too transparent… I am sure that he will feel so much better if he quit… and I also know it is not for me to act like his mother… urrrgh.

  159.  #159Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 7:52 am

    Victoria #144
    Ahhh… lovely siren…

    I do understand what you are sharing here…
    about F being out of shape…
    I had a BF 2 years ago
    who started out being hot… in Great shape
    sooo sexy… adoring ME…
    and then… started drinking toooo much…
    got fat (big beer belly) which at his age is a heart attack waiting to happen
    and became MORE mean and neglectful to me…
    I just stuffed my thoughts on his looks
    concentrated on what was good about us (not much)
    in the end… I did NOT share my feelings about his health…
    MEAN and UGLY was too much – so i finally was able to let him go…

    I have read of a siren who had a BF who was not a good dresser and was out of shape – she loved everything else about him
    shared with him
    how important being healthy was to her…
    how turned on it made her feel…
    she had a really good way of approaching the topic with feeling messages
    He actually started eating better AND working out…
    I don’t think stuffing your feelings about this is good…
    wonder what other sirens thoughts are?

  160.  #160victoria on April 6, 2015 at 8:27 am

    Thanks for your wise words. The thing is he does not look ugly, he looks absolutely gorgeous to me because I love big men ( I am 5 ‘ 10 myself, so I need them to be 6 f or so, not easy where I live. It is not abouthis looks but about his health and energy. But you are right, I have no other choice but to butter him for coming to the gym with me and give positive reinforcement. Sigh.

  161.  #161Dominique on April 6, 2015 at 8:45 am

    Indigo – I just wrote to my webmaster with your info. Hopefully he’ll respond soon.
    Victoria – could you please email me, so I can pass on your info to him as well.

    Thank you.

  162.  #162Dominique on April 6, 2015 at 8:49 am

    Femininewoman – Thank you so much. <3 It's on Sunday. Yours is tomorrow, isn't it? Happiest of Happys to you. I will be in the city on Friday if you want to come out for a bit and say hello. 🙂

    Love to you.


  163.  #163Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 9:03 am

    Happiest of Birthday to two wonderful, wise and inspiriting Sirens
    FeminineWoman AND Dominique
    Wishing you joy, excitement and plenty of Sparkily Magic alllll year.

  164.  #164Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 9:36 am

    {{{{Beloved}}} #139
    Ohhh beautiful, vivacious Siren
    sending warm soothing vibes to you…

    look at YOUR triggers…
    love YOU…
    sometimes – many times- giving time and space to things that DONT involve you
    Is one of the LESSONs for us…
    What needs tending in YOUR life?

  165.  #165Beloved on April 6, 2015 at 9:44 am

    Azure Blue – I feel grateful for the reminder to focus on my life – and – I live here, this is my family unit for the time being, it feels like it *does* involve me.

    As I type this, TG is constructing a wall shutting the upstairs balcony off from the downstairs…ugh.
    I thought men weren’t supposed to change, lol.

    So, for now, what needs tending is my financial aid and summer enrollment stuff.
    I got this.

  166.  #166Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 9:52 am

    update on Spirit and me…
    It was what you thought, Victoria,
    Spirit was DEEPLY hurt by coming across an old POF profile on my iphone…

    After texting him
    “I felt shocked seeing my profile still on my phone… because I had deleted my profile 4 weeks before..
    I am in love with you, Spirit…
    I am NOT online and NOT looking…
    Trust is a precious and fragile thing…
    I don’t want to do anything to jeopardize that .”

    He called me a day later…
    talked about many things…
    the next day asked me to go dancing and to a movie
    still was a bit leaned back… BUT took me to many of his favorite dancing spots he hadn’t taken me before…
    invited me to watch the game with him on sat at his new hangout…
    and I invited him to my families get together at my house on Suday…
    HE came and stayed the whole time…
    I am feeling relaxed and closer to him…
    watching as I let myself stretch my intimacy muscles…
    Mmmmmm…. I am excited to see how this goes!!

    Thank you all again for allllll your support and love!

  167.  #167Femininewoman on April 6, 2015 at 10:19 am

    Thanks Dominique. It is today. Thanks Azure.

    In the city as in NYC?

  168.  #168Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 10:21 am


    Thank you for sharing about your family, and I totally get what you mean.

    I don’t let my family steamroller me any more, but I totally get you – I don’t feel very safe talking in feeling messages or expressing my needs. As soon as I start I get the crossed arms and the rolling of the eyes or “here we go again” and they kinda shut down. It’s like pulling teeth and I get the clear sense that I’m not really allowed to have needs or feelings about these things. Even little things like someone to take me to drop my car off to get serviced are treated as major impositions and they certainly don’t offer to help. So honestly I usually just sort myself out and go along with whatever. But I see them less and less because of this, and tend to rely on the few close friends I have instead.

  169.  #169Senior Lady Vibe on April 6, 2015 at 10:40 am

    “…This mild man who’d seemed lost and terrified without this woman was able to move out into a tiny, little apartment and he was happy and he stayed there.

    It’s really amazing what a guy will do just to be himself and to feel accepted and loved for who he is….”

    SLV: Good for him!
    Maybe he’ll find a woman who can love and respect him. (Or maybe she’ll find him. 😉 )

    I also wouldn’t want to be with someone who didn’t respect who I am and who insisted I be someone else.


  170.  #170Senior Lady Vibe on April 6, 2015 at 10:50 am

    Just scrolling back up when I saw…

    21: Femininewoman says:

    “…Very typical of how I and many other women make excuses for men. I can’t help but wonder what would Evan Mark Katz say about this?…

    SLV: Dump him? Dunno for sure, but yeah; I think that would be his response. 😆

    [I know what mine would be…]


  171.  #171Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 10:59 am

    Indigo #167
    Ahhhh… your are a Rock Star!!!

    You have stopped rowing the boat
    in your family dynamics….
    It is a transition… looks like you are resolving the challenges of less family negativity
    and nurturing friendships that are MUCH
    more caring, and responsive…

    the other thing I realized
    when changing my invisibility over the years…
    *I* tended to NEVER have anything much to share about me and my life
    (MY mindset of ME thinking I’m NOT very interesting)
    I have a really exciting and busy life…
    but get me with other people and I act like
    everyone elses life is soooo MUCH more interesting and become their cheeleader…
    So over the past few years
    when i attend an event or a gathering with friends/family
    I think about what has happened in MY life
    in the past day/week
    and practice sharing this info before i get there.
    It has gotten much less stilted and more natural now… but it HAS broken alot of ME continuing
    MY invisibility!!

  172.  #172Dominique on April 6, 2015 at 11:19 am

    Femininewoman – I’m sorry. After I posted, I thought maybe it was yesterday. Well a HUGE HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you TODAY!!!

    And yes as in NYC city. 🙂 I go in regularly, but I also go every year for a girly play day for b’day. Would love to see you if you’re up for it.


  173.  #173Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 11:49 am

    ((((Feminine Woman))))

    Happy birthday dear Siren! I hope you are having a marvelous one <3


  174.  #174Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 11:57 am

    Azure Blu 170

    Thank you so much 🙂

    I feel so interested that Spirit was actually very hurt by discovering your POF profile on your phone and that was why he was backing off. It feels so interesting to me that a man would suffer in silence like that rather than come out with what is bothering him. But then, I know that D is much the same. If he feels jealous or hurt by something like that, he won’t come right out and say it but he will give hints. That’s why I do sometimes think we have to be a bit careful with a man’s feelings around things like this. After all, I would want him to be careful with mine in the same way.

    I feel so glad you resolved it and moved past it!

  175.  #175Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 12:34 pm

    Indigo… #173
    I don’t know if others have found this or not…

    What has become evident with the CD’s I have become exclusive with
    the transition between me dating others and only dating them…
    especially because of the way
    the online web sites keep your profile and picture up as long as possible…
    Many times My CD’s have seen my pict still up
    after I have hidden or deleted my profile
    it has sparked conversations about NOT lieing
    and each of us reassuring each other that we are NOT online

    Trust… such a fragile and precious thing…

    I don’t think D is very different from MOST men…
    they do NOT like to expose themselves by speaking about things like this…
    Spirit felt like i had lied to him…
    I’m not sure how quickly I’d talk about it either…
    I’d withdraw first…

  176.  #176Femininewoman on April 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    Thank you.

  177.  #177Lovergirl on April 6, 2015 at 1:13 pm

    Victoria (140)-

    Your post is also interesting to read. The story about your friend is intriguing too. Glad to know I am not the only person dealing with something like this.

    S has taken me out with some of his friends. His best male friend (who is married) seems to like me a lot and virtually always takes my side when S and I have a disagreement. So I always feel relieved if something happens and he goes to this guy to talk about it, lol. We hung out with him and his wife a few times and when they started treating S and I like a couple and asking “us” to functions, S got stressed out about it. They are also still friendly with his ex girlfriend and I wonder if that wasn’t part of the issue at the time. It’s been several months since I have seen them, but I know S still tells the guy stuff about me.

    Its funny you mentioned how the guy your friend is dealing with just can’t seem to find what he wants in another woman. S called me again last night and one of the first things he tells me is that he has gone out again with the woman he had a coffee date but that some things are bothering him. He said he doesn’t know why but he feels like he “should” like her more than he does.

    He said she is financially successful and cute and seems to be a nice person. She only has one child and the father is completely out of the picture. He said though, that she insists on paying for things on dates and for some reason that is really bothering him. I thought of Rori and the tools and how we talk on here about men needing to give to you so that was interesting to hear. I said maybe it feels kind of emasculating, because you know that you can pay for things yourself and don’t like her doing it for you. He was like “YES, I think that’s it”.

    Then he said there are “some more things going on” right now but that maybe they are better not to talk to me about. As morbidly curious as I felt, I agreed with him and told him I needed to get off the phone. He seemed upset that I was hanging up, but agreed.

    After I got off the phone though, my stomach was in knots. I felt really upset that he had called AGAIN to talk about another woman, especially after I had let him know it felt painful. I wondered why he brought up her finances and it felt like he was trying to rub in my face that she is somehow “better” than me.

    So I texted him “It makes me feel awful to be asked advice about other women you are seeing”.

    He responded: “Ok you’ve said that before- I’ll stop. Sorry”.

    I said ” I feel really confused and a bit angry that someone that rejected me as a relationship prospect would want my advice about other women”.

    It took him like a half hour before he wrote back ” I understand and I apologize- won’t put you in that position again”.

    Then my feelings got the best of me 😛 I was like “I feel all torn up inside, like I’m being trampled over like some kind of doormat. I don’t feel comfortable with that dynamic at all. I’m not your f***ing “friend” S. Go f**k yourself!”

    He said now I was turning it into a pity party and he didn’t have time for attention whoring.

    I said “I shouldn’t have to say more than once that something is painful to me for it to stop. I’m not being respected and I don’t have to hang around for that. It’s not in my best interest”.

    It went downhill from there. He said I should never stay in a situation where I feel mistreated and I said I agree. I told him I don’t care if he has some new girlfriend that is better off financially than me, that the only man I would ever want to be with would be one that would love me through all the ups and downs of life, for richer or poorer, and everything that might happen, that I wouldn’t settle for anything less.

    He said I obviously took it the wrong way and thought he was comparing me. He called on the phone and asked me to forgive him and I semi agreed but I was still feeling mad. He was like you don’t want to be my “friend” then, I guess… and I said no I don’t. He sounded pretty hurt, but I didn’t care. He said I guess we will just be business partners then, can you handle that? I said I think so.

    After we got off the phone though, I still wasn’t feeling good. I texted him again, that I really am not feeling ready to forgive him for calling to brag about this woman’s situation. He said he wasn’t bragging about anything. He said I was being irrational.

    I said: “I don’t care S. Go for it. She’s clearly so much better than me. I’m sure it will be perfect. Have a nice life. ”

    He said “Please stop that” and I told him that the more I think about, it the worse it feels, that I don’t want to be even working for him in this situation and that maybe he can find someone “better than me” to work for him too. I said I don’t care what you think, I am worth more than that.

    He never responded. I cried a lot. I’m feeling like sh*t right now.

    [WORDPRESS HASHCASH] The poster sent us ‘0 which is not a hashcash value.

  178.  #178Lovergirl on April 6, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    Victoria (140)-

    Your post is also interesting to read. The story about your friend is intriguing too. Glad to know I am not the only person dealing with something like this.

    S has taken me out with some of his friends. His best male friend (who is married) seems to like me a lot and virtually always takes my side when S and I have a disagreement. So I always feel relieved if something happens and he goes to this guy to talk about it, lol. We hung out with him and his wife a few times and when they started treating S and I like a couple and asking “us” to functions, S got stressed out about it. They are also still friendly with his ex girlfriend and I wonder if that wasn’t part of the issue at the time. It’s been several months since I have seen them, but I know S still tells the guy stuff about me.

    Its funny you mentioned how the guy your friend is dealing with just can’t seem to find what he wants in another woman. S called me again last night and one of the first things he tells me is that he has gone out again with the woman he had a coffee date but that some things are bothering him. He said he doesn’t know why but he feels like he “should” like her more than he does.

    He said she is financially successful and cute and seems to be a nice person. She only has one child and the father is completely out of the picture. He said though, that she insists on paying for things on dates and for some reason that is really bothering him. I thought of Rori and the tools and how we talk on here about men needing to give to you so that was interesting to hear. I said maybe it feels kind of emasculating, because you know that you can pay for things yourself and don’t like her doing it for you. He was like “YES, I think that’s it”.

    Then he said there are “some more things going on” right now but that maybe they are better not to talk to me about. As morbidly curious as I felt, I agreed with him and told him I needed to get off the phone. He seemed upset that I was hanging up, but agreed.

    After I got off the phone though, my stomach was in knots. I felt really upset that he had called AGAIN to talk about another woman, especially after I had let him know it felt painful. I wondered why he brought up her finances and it felt like he was trying to rub in my face that she is somehow “better” than me.

    So I texted him “It makes me feel awful to be asked advice about other women you are seeing”.

    He responded: “Ok you’ve said that before- I’ll stop. Sorry”.

    I said ” I feel really confused and a bit angry that someone that rejected me as a relationship prospect would want my advice about other women”.

    It took him like a half hour before he wrote back ” I understand and I apologize- won’t put you in that position again”.

    Then my feelings got the best of me 😛 I was like “I feel all torn up inside, like I’m being trampled over like some kind of doormat. I don’t feel comfortable with that dynamic at all. I’m not your f***ing “friend” S. Go f**k yourself!”

    He said now I was turning it into a pity party and he didn’t have time for attention whoring.

    I said “I shouldn’t have to say more than once that something is painful to me for it to stop. I’m not being respected and I don’t have to hang around for that. It’s not in my best interest”.

    It went downhill from there. He said I should never stay in a situation where I feel mistreated and I said I agree. I told him I don’t care if he has some new girlfriend that is better off financially than me, that the only man I would ever want to be with would be one that would love me through all the ups and downs of life, for richer or poorer, and everything that might happen, that I wouldn’t settle for anything less.

    He said I obviously took it the wrong way and thought he was comparing me. He called on the phone and asked me to forgive him and I semi agreed but I was still feeling mad. He was like you don’t want to be my “friend” then, I guess… and I said no I don’t. He sounded pretty hurt, but I didn’t care. He said I guess we will just be business partners then, can you handle that? I said I think so.

    After we got off the phone though, I still wasn’t feeling good. I texted him again, that I really am not feeling ready to forgive him for calling to brag about this woman’s situation. He said he wasn’t bragging about anything. He said I was being irrational.

    I said: “I don’t care S. Go for it. She’s clearly so much better than me. I’m sure it will be perfect. Have a nice life. ”

    He said “Please stop that” and I told him that the more I think about, it the worse it feels, that I don’t want to be even working for him in this situation and that maybe he can find someone “better than me” to work for him too. I said I don’t care what you think, I am worth more than that.

    He never responded. I cried a lot. I’m feeling like sh*t right now.

  179.  #179Kath on April 6, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    I know you’re hurting and I am so sorry you feel so sad right now-what happened was understandable darling Siren. You have been juggling a lot of emotion for some time. I know only too well how things bubble and rise up and no matter how hard you try to swallow and push them down, one day they will erupt. I hate myself when that happens and its why I really have to consciously take deep breaths now and think of Rori and Dominique and all the Sirens good advice. Only two weeks ago I blew up at R about his female friend and how much she triggered me and how I really didn’t understand how she could continue taking from him the way she did. Ugh, just thinking about it then makes me want to curl up and cry so hard!.

    The drama stops when we really sink deep into ourselves and learn what we are feeling at that given moment and are able to say what that is. Its a huge life change for me and one that is probably the single hardest thing I have ever done because its just not something that you learn and then it just happens-it takes time-for me it will take a long time, but I will get there-and each painful, heartfelt baby step takes me further down the road to a better, authentic me and the person I so want to be after all these years of getting it wrong. Take care wonderful Siren xxx

  180.  #180Lavender on April 6, 2015 at 2:02 pm

    I am so lost in my relationship. I am struggling using the tools your book. I am giving it 30 days and letting him do the work and make the effort. We almost broke up today because I told him I was feeling upset that we hadn’t seen each other in over a week. We text every day, and I never text first, I just respond to what he says. But he says that I never make an effort to see him or make plans with him. In reality I’m just waiting for him to suggest a day or time or activity. In the mean time I’ve been doing my own thing. But I feel that things are drifting apart because neither of us are making that first step forward. He is used to me meeting him anywhere, making plans, suggesting activities etc. and based in his text I can see he is purposely leaving things open and ambiguous so I can be the one to ask him to meet up or make a plan. And now he is mad saying I want time with him but am too busy for him and never make an effort to see him. What do I do? Do I let him go because he doesn’t want me enough to chase me?

  181.  #181victoria on April 6, 2015 at 2:03 pm

    This is his revenge for you rubbing your new man and your trip to Chicago in his face. He must have been SO Jealous!

    He wanted to hurt you and he did. He may be a good guy and all, but he is clearly revengeful.

    I am sending you hugs and I want you to know it is all going to be ok now that you have clarified that both of you are so jealous about each other. This is a good starting point for being completely honest. Imho.

  182.  #182Lavender on April 6, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    I also know circular dating would be a deal breaker for him. And I don’t want to lose this guy.

  183.  #183April Rose on April 6, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    Happy happy birthday dear Femininewoman. I hope you are getting treated and spoiled and having a beautiful-feeling day.

  184.  #184RileyTheOwl on April 6, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Indigo, you’re welcome, and thank you so much for asking. I am so so so much better, although still of course sad at times, but I don’t feel the weak small pathetic feelings anymore, and I’m glad, because I really don’t want to feel them. Feelings those, when I’m wanting him back, is a really scary place to be.

    Now, after a beautifully therapeutic four day weekend, I am feeling so much better. New things are coming into my life 🙂 it was full moon on Saturday night, and I had a little ceremony in my room where I felt gratitude for everything I am grateful for.

    My mom just got a new dog, and having this really sweet loyal cuddly creature around the house is so uplifting.

    I also decided to get a couple new piercings in my ears, which feels extremely good in so many ways. It just feels fun, new, me, exciting, and like I’m just having fun being me and doing my thing. You know? So new piercings and a dog and a sunny relaxing weekend full of hobbies, meditation, fun workouts, full moon ceremonies, and all that good stuff has me feeling like Woah, I can get over this break up. I AM getting over this break up. Now when I think about the relationship, I smile instead of cry. It was a good relationship, full of sweetness and love, and it was good for me. But I’m moving on in my life, I’m graduating and leaving home and I’m in the process of finding myself. Now is my time:)

  185.  #185prplpsn28 on April 6, 2015 at 5:36 pm

    Thank you Azure and Indigo 🙂 New POF guy and I have plans to meet again this coming weekend 🙂

  186.  #186Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 5:47 pm

    Victoria #178
    I’m thinking you are Soooo Right!!
    A good reminder for me…
    It is VERY hurtful and dangerous territory to be
    talking to each other about old or new relationships!!!

    Men definitely DON’t want to hear about it
    and really, neither do I!
    Spirit will mention random info off and on
    about old gf…
    lately I have said a few things also..
    But, I think I will monitor this MORE…
    and just NOT!
    We are too new to for any of this to have any relevance to us and who we are together…

  187.  #187RileyTheOwl on April 6, 2015 at 5:52 pm

    Oh my gosh I feel angry and scared and I dont like it here
    I need to get out of here
    I’ve only been here twenty minutes and I can’t stand it
    I feel like I need to have a crying fit

    …oh my gosh
    That cry felt good
    my grief for my parents and my split apart family feels

    Like sadness, like and ocean


    I’ve decided I’m running away from my dad’s house tonight. I’m going back to my mom’s and I’m staying there for good. I feel so sad

  188.  #188Azure Blu on April 6, 2015 at 6:44 pm

    You are going thru sooo much…
    hang in there… will you be safe leaving your fathers house late at night?
    Be safe lovely, sweet Siren.

  189.  #189RileyTheOwl on April 6, 2015 at 7:15 pm

    Azure, I really appreciate your concern, like REALLY appreciate it. Just a simple sentence of concern from another human feels so soothing. At the moment I feel so alone. C lives right down the street from my dad’s, and if we were still together he’d be more than willing to help me out with this. He’d help me with my heavy bags and drive me home.
    He’s actually texting me right now,
    he’s asking me about my new dog because he saw pictures of her on social media. He’s saying how adorable she looks (she is <3) and asking me about her. I'm trying to take YOUR advice, and keep my text answers short and smiley. But at the moment I feel like saying "oh C, I feel so much distress here at my dads. I am leaving my dads house tonight, and my decision has me feeling both relieved and a bit nervous."

    Or anything really, apart from my short smiley texts, to express to him how I'm really feeling. cause right now I don't feel smiley, and I'm concerned my vibe is fake. What do you think of that Azure? Please, if you think I should NOT approach him with my problems, TELL ME, so that I'm not dwelling on whether it's a good idea or not. Thanks.
    My mom's house it about a 30 minute walk away and it's relatively safe,

    ahh tell me about it, I AM going through so much right now… it's a cleansing phase of my life maybe? Sighhh

  190.  #190RileyTheOwl on April 6, 2015 at 7:24 pm

    What would even be a good feeling message to him in this situation?
    Maybe just,
    “C, I feel distressed”

    why I am even bothering with feeling messages or with C right now????
    Hahah, I feel amused now 🙂
    I’m leaving my dad tonight, and I’m thinking about feeling messages to C.

    This is MY stuff, I believe that I can take care of myself with this one. It would feel so good to have someone to talk to, but I don’t feel comfortable expressing all this stuff to C. I would feel comfortable expressing my stuff right now to him IF he was asking how I was, and showing interest in me. I’m not sure if texting me enthusiastic texts about my new dog counts as that, it could or it couldn’t… so idk.

    you are SO STRONG. You are a strong siren. I am going to walk in the cold with my heavy bag and I can do it, the thought makes me feel independent, like I’m chasing what I’m after and being assertive.
    I DON’T want to be at my dad’s house anymore.
    It sucks,
    I’m leaving my situation.
    Riley, you are so strong for this. if I get tired then I’ll call C, but I want to sample this sense of taking-charge-of-my-situation feeling before I go to him for help.

  191.  #191Lovergirl on April 6, 2015 at 7:58 pm

    Kath (177)-

    Thank you. I do have a real issue with that. I can start out using feeling messages but as I feel worse and worse, it just devolves into “drama”. I am wondering if my period is going to start earlier than expected or something. It is supposedly a week away, but this is how I get, super emotional. I’ve been crying all day.

    I really need to work on not losing control, PMS or not.

  192.  #192Andrea on April 6, 2015 at 8:09 pm

    Riley, you don’t have to “approach him with your problems.”

    But you can be Authentic.

    “Thank you for texting me. I feel happy to hear from you. Right now I’m feeling frightened and distressed though.”

    And leave it at that. Maybe he will text back: Why are you distressed? What’s going on?

    Then you can share what you want to share. “I feel so grateful for your concern for me… this is what’s happening.”

  193.  #193Andrea on April 6, 2015 at 8:11 pm

    ps Oh Riley, yes you are strong. And yes you can do this. I feel nervous for you and proud of you at the same time. Taking care of you!!!!!!

  194.  #194Lovergirl on April 6, 2015 at 8:20 pm

    Victoria (178)-

    Forhead slap….why didn’t I think of that? Its like SO OBVIOUS when you point it out! I guess I am so emotionally involved that I can’t see what’s right in front of my face.

    Of COURSE he is acting out of jealousy. He even GREETED me on the phone by asking about my “new boyfriend” and saying something about oh yeah, he’s in Chicago right now though, right? I responded by saying you know it makes me feel guilty and disloyal when you keep bringing him up and calling him my boyfriend. He asked “disloyal”…why? I said I don’t know, I guess I feel disloyal to you, like I am doing something wrong but I shouldn’t feel that way. He said, no you shouldn’t and I am not trying to make you feel bad.

    Seriously, like every other thing he says is bringing up my “new boyfriend”. I say, he is not my “boyfriend” S and he says, quit trying to downplay it.

    In fact his “excuse” to bring up this new woman was to ask me what it felt like to have guys buying me stuff all the time. I said well, it can be nice but they can also kind of hold it over your head, like they expect something from you or use it to try and guilt you into a relationship. I mentioned this guy who bought me some $200 boots and nice perfume then got mad when I didn’t want to be with him.

    Anyhow, I admit there is a part of me WANTING to make S jealous and maybe even wanting to get “revenge” for him not wanting to be in a relationship with me. So again, he is being like me…and how I feel.

    Right now, I feel kind of defeated. Like, how can I ever compete with a woman that only has one child and is super well off? Is there even anything about me that would make a man love ME more than another woman? I know I am supposed to think better of myself, but my self esteem is hitting rock bottom. I don’t know that I have anything special about me other than that I just really care about him. :/ I know we are supposed to think we are worthy just for being a woman, but she is a woman too…

  195.  #195Lovetodance on April 6, 2015 at 8:29 pm

    (((((((Riley)))))))sending you support and care….

  196.  #196Gear on April 6, 2015 at 8:55 pm

    Hi beautiful Sirens,

    I so missed this crib, the sir island.
    I had a promising first date on Saturday.(met through speed dating a week before)

    Yesterday he sent me by email a flyer of one of the bands which he had mentioned to me that was going to play this coming weekend. Title was “xxxx is playing, do you know them?

    I replied tonight an email, short and sweet. Told him I enjoyed the Saturday night with him, and it felt awesome… I also mentioned the link didn’t work.

    He sent me the link tonight, and said, “let me know if that is something you’d like to attend with me this Friday. .. 🙂 ”

    Yesterday’s email made me feel a little confused, didn’t know what he meant.

    Tonight’s email feels clearer, it sounds like he has already planned to go that concert. Feels like he was asking me if I would like to come along.

    I was caught up trying to figure out the logistics. If I wanted to go, does it sound like I would have to get my own ticket? If that’s the case, what perspective I need to have? Buy my own ticket and go with him? Or pass?

  197.  #197Rori Raye on April 6, 2015 at 9:05 pm

    Meyling – you are not alone – we are – so many of us – high energy type women! Please consider getting the Complete collection, starting with Modern Siren, really working your way through Reconnect, Heart Connection Toolkit, Commitment Blueprint, Toxic Men, Targeting Mr. Right and Love Scripts – each builds on the other – they will help you understand and practice how to make this an “inside” thing that will stick…not a superficial one that feels foreign. Love,Rori. And try my Certified Coaches – They will turn things around for you fast…

  198.  #198RileyTheOwl on April 6, 2015 at 9:06 pm

    Oh Andrea, thank you so much for that advice on how to express myself with C.. everything is so complicated right now I don’t know how to talk to him anymore in a way that’s healthy for me.

    I actually used those exact words… hahah.

    “C, thank you for texting me, and it feels good to talk about Nala (that’s my dog) but at the moment I’m actually feeling pretty distressed and frightened.”

    “You’re welcome! What’s wrong??? Did something happen?”

    he responded almost as soon as I sent it,
    I feel grateful for that, so again I used what you said… :p

    woah I feel really bad, like guilty bad. Well, it’s mixed with an urge to slam a door in my dad’s face at the moment, but I also feel guilt at the thought of leaving him. I don’t want to hurt him. But, as soon as I feel that and type that, I am reminded that he is much better off than my mom is. He has a new life, all happy with a new girlfriend, and he can deal with my leaving.

    His feelings aren’t my problem.
    I want to believe that statement, and to not worry about his feelings, because satisfying him (by staying) is hurting ME, and I need to take care of myself… ahh but then here comes the guilt again. Tis an endless cycle, but I’m glad I made my decision.
    I’ve been making a lot of decisions lately.

  199.  #199RileyTheOwl on April 6, 2015 at 9:07 pm

    Thank you Lovetodance, I appreciate it

  200.  #200Indigo on April 6, 2015 at 9:11 pm

    Lovergirl 176,

    I agree with Victoria, that he is getting a dig in because you told him about your date with the guy who is taking you to Chicago. Even the nicest men will do this, because they don’t want you to think they are sitting home pining for you – it’s a way to mask the hurt.

    But, your reaction – this is what we were trying to warn you about. This is why we were cautioning you not to get into these long discussions and to make a boundary out of not talking about other women. Most of us have been there. I know I have. I’ve learned to recognise that first little twinge and make a decent boundary right then and there – or most of the time, and this helps to prevent outbursts like the one you had, which are no good for you or your relationship. xx

  201.  #201RileyTheOwl on April 6, 2015 at 9:15 pm

    Gosh darn it, I really just need to do my chem homework but I can’t concentrate.

  202.  #202Victoria on April 7, 2015 at 12:24 am

    Lovergirl, Azure, Indigo,

    Sooo, I had two very good guesses in the last couple of days.

    I wonder whether this is a sign that I see the speck in my sister’s eye, not seeing the log in mine, to paraphrase the famous saying :-).

    I am quite a jealous person… I have come to accept this part of me, I think in fact jealosy, which is a form of competition, can drive you to grow and develop.
    And I think, as a matter of principle, that it is good to try not to provoke jealosy in your partner. Treat others the way you like to be treated.


    You have the choice now to end the relationship altogether, or try to be friends with him (very difficult given the chemistry between you) or be business partners (even more difficult) or continue being a little bit of everything to each other for the time being, just making a formal truce and agreeing with each other not to bring up other men and women in your conversations AT ALL. I think you definitely would benefit from speaking to a real coach who can help you clarify your thoughts and feelings for you.
    As to how you can compete with another woman who is richer/taller/shorter/prettier/single etc., there are at least two different answers to this question that come to my mind.
    1) The Rori answer: you need to out-girl her. Be more feminine (I think you already have this advantage). A part of being feminine is being very nice to the man and making him feel good about himself, instead of making him feel like an agressor. Difficult in your situation but not impossible if you think about it from this perspective
    2) The EMK answer. Emotions apart, having 5 children who are dependent on you does not make you an ideal partner for a single man who wants to be a dad to, and here comes the twist, black children.
    You might be however ideal for someone who already has his own children and/or does not want to have any more kids, meaning, a divorced man, possibly older. Your energy will be much better spent redirecting your attention to other men than trying to change what S. wants at this point in his life.
    So, there are different ways to deal with the situation, and I trust you will be best advised by a professional coach.
    Otherwise, I am sending you love and hugs… You so remind me of my friend I was telling you about Brilliant woman, very intelligent, nice, kind, wonderful friend, just not lucky in love. My heart goes for you.

  203.  #203Victoria on April 7, 2015 at 12:52 am

    I am so happy that things are back to good between you and Spirit.
    You made me think whether it is good or bad to talk about old relationships and/or other men/women.
    I think it is kind of inevitable, because our past relationships are a very important part of who we are. And, when getting to know someone, you will miss a major part of their personality if you don’t know about it. When I tell about my past to a man, I try to not be terribly negative about the men, because I know this will be perceived as bad taste. I do share about behaviour which I found hurtful and unpleasant, I think men pick up very easily on this clue. I try not to compare the man I am dating negatively to other man, but this is something I still struggle with. As I have told you, F. is heavily in debt, and financially is not doing great. I work with very rich people (mostly men) and every once in a while I say something which makes him cringe. I try to catch myself, but sometimes I fail.
    I mentioned in the beginning of our relationship that making good money is a part of what makes a man successful, and I can’t tell you how many times he has brought up whethe I am feeling well dating a non-successful man.
    I have tried to explain to him that success has many dimensions, and that I love what he does (being a doctor) and I am very happy with how he is treating me and with his generosity (he is a very generous person which of course is part of the reason he is in debt, lol, if he was a spend-thrift he would not be in this position to begin with). But I still wish I had not menitioned that thing about money and success.
    Lately, I take any opportunity of comparison (wheneve we are talking about another man) to tell him how much more handsome, clever, wonderful, charming, well-spoken etc. he is. I think he particulaly likes me complementing him on his looks, something which I think he has never experienced before, hehehe. I am becoming such a master at the art of flattery, but you know what, he is getting better and better too! We have some hillarious conversations lately, in which we just compete who will give more complements to the other, it s both funy, and humorous (because we are both exaggerating) but it is also very heart warming.

  204.  #204Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 4:21 am


    Sorry to jump in so late and I know that you don’t know me, but I just feel so thankful for you posting so honestly and openly on here. Wow, your vulnerability is a true lesson to me I believe. I have such a problem with this and with sharing my situations with other incase I feel “judged”. And you can be so wonderfully vulnerable and eloquent about your situation.

    Regards to your situation with S I have been there myself and feel in many ways I am “there” too now. Sometimes I feel that I can’t see the wood for the trees so to speak.

    And, yes, I do believe I can give my thoughts and feelings to you here about your situation but not take any of my own advice ho hum…!

    I have a couple of questions for you though.

    You seem to talk a lot about S, and you talk as in “S and I…” or “Me and S….” which makes you sound like a couple. I do this too with my D, and I think that’s why I am triggered by it, and also it seems to trigger other people whenever I mention his name.

    Also, what do you want in a relationship? I mean, as in the whole courting and romance thing… I only ask you this because I am going through a similar thing with my D. I actually realise I don’t *know* what I want from on in a relationship.

    My last good relationships were about 20 years ago and it involved really basic things like going out for dinner, cinema, theatre, day trips, holidays that sort of thing. It felt nice. But I wonder if my life has moved on so much from that now that it all feels twee to have a relationship like that?!

    Everyone that I seem to speak to these days seems to be an “Action Girl and don’t need any of the airs and graces of romance that I need. They never seem to want to “date” in the way that I do.. and this worries me… it worries me that I am out of kilter with the rest of the world.

    Whenever I speak with my female friends their boyfriends are out doing stuff with their own friends, and they are doing stuff with their girlfriends. It seems weird to me that couples don’t do so much together anymore.

    I know that I feel like a “traditionalist” and I don’t really know where my place is anymore. I feel like I did when I was 16 and I am still expecting a man to ask me on a nice date to the cinema. After the cinema we would go for a nice drink, or a meal and a chat. But these days I don’t seem to meet anyone who wants to do that still.

    For example, I do get asked out on “dates” and yes, they will typically be to the theatre or cinema etc. But literally after the first date it all feels like it goes down hill. i.e They will set up a date that is more connected to both of our “interests” and I feel pressured to go along with this.

    Also, all of my female friends seem so ridiculously independent. They speak about “never” needing a man and always wanting to live alone and stay independent. Whenever I seem to ask them about their respective boyfriends they tell me “Oh, they’re doing their own thing this weekend / bank holiday / evening etc…

    To me, I just don’t want a relationship like this. For example, if I am going to a wedding or a family function I expect (unless there is a really, really strong reason) that my man will be there beside me.

    I just don’t get the whole thing of doing things separately all the time. A friend of mine was telling me how her mum was always having a go at her because she never invites her boyfriend to family functions and she is always going off on holiday or doing things on her own or with other friends or family members. ie she went away with me and some friends this weekend and next bank holiday she is staying with her sister and family. Her boyfriend has made his own plans I presume.

    Admittedly they have only been together a few months but it just feels wrong to me, and sometimes I want to scream out inside how confused and despondent I feel.

    I hang around with lots of Meet-up groups now and we do lots of activities together which is nice but I still want and am looking for this little relationship where it is more traditional.

    Now I have written that last paragraph I wonder if it’s more to do with the fact that I am more used to being in a family unit rather than with larger, more active social groups.

    I notice that the people that I meet in this social group have a very different mentality to me. They are all fiercely independent and are rarely actively looking for a partner. It’s like they enjoy being single so much that they don’t want to give it up for anybody.

    In all honesty I envy these people. I feel so confused. I realise living in a big city it seems harder to have those traditional, cute relationships where you both trundle round the supermarket on a Saturday morning, or take your holidays once a year to the sea-side.

    Life is so different now. People tell me that to keep a relationship “fresh” then you always need to keep that independance from each other, you need to have your own thing going on. But to me, that all sounds like too much hard work, I think I am looking for something else and I don’t know how I got that way.

    For example sometimes I wish I had the type of relationship my parents had where my dad went out to work and my mum stayed at home. I think part of me longs for that old fashioned, traditional, yet nice regular and familiar type of relationship. Hmm..

    Yet, I just don’t believe I will ever get that, and there’s a part of me that is confused if I “really” want it.

    As for D, and what he offers me. Well, it is not really matching up. Even though we live on London and there is so much on offer, he never wants to go for a drink or something to eat, etc.. He is cultured and wants to go to the theatre, art galleries and museums but it often feels like we go in, see what it is that we have to see and then rush out again. There is never time to mooch around the gift shop or go for a coffee, drink or a snack. He just wants to rush off to whatever the never thing on the “agenda” is.

    Whenever I bring this up to him he just looks at me blankly and makes me feel like I am being pathetic and needy. He’s like “Well, you can go for a coffee or a drink – I am not stopping you” – but this just does’t feel right to me. I don’t know, I can’t put my finger on it.

    I get that he isn’t bothered about doing these things but for some reason I feel really upset inside and offended. It’s like he’s NOT thinking about my needs or feelings. It just all feels a bit “weird” to me and I really don’t know why…

    But the scary bit is whenever I raise this issue with my friends they look at me like I am nuts. I feel like I am going mad inside and that I am on the brink of finishing with this guy because he doesn’t want to buy me a coffee. It feels mad, if feels ludicrous.. I feel very scared and shaky inside…

    Yesterday it came to ahead over a cup of tea and I feel so stupid. I asked him if he wanted one and he said no and I just sort of flipped and lost the plot. I know to everyone else it sounded stupid but part of me feels like he does this to defy me and wind me up.

    Whenever he is trying to get in my good books he always wants to take me out for a drink but it’s like he withholds when he feels a bit more confident to do so. I don’t know why but on some level I find his attitude childish. He’s always happy with his bottle of tap water and he never thinks to ask me if I am okay.

    I guess it’s me and the way I’ve been bought up but I always seem to look after everybody. I guess that’s why he likes me too but there is nothing in it for me. I feel like having a massive go at him today. Part of me thinks that that is what he wants too…


    I tried to have a conversation with him last night before he left and I pinned him down on whether he could give me what I want. Whether he would ever want to take me out for a drink and do any of those things. It was weird he normally begs and begs and says he will change but last night I got him to admit last night that he won’t ever change and has no intention of it. I thanked him for being honest with me but I did have a go at hime for constantly saying he will change. He is driving me up the wall… He then said he had never said he would change… this all feels so weird and so surreal to me…

    I can’t tell you the weird emotions I have experienced with this man. He surrounds me with love and emotion when we are on a one to one ie at home or at his. But when we are out and about I feel like he acts like I am not their.

    My friends say I have been incredibly patient with him and that is true. I really don’t know what he wants.


  205.  #205Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 5:39 am

    Well, an update…

    So, yesterday after weeks of not seeing each other we did meet up, and spent the day together which for the most part was really nice until the “cup of tea” incident. Lol..

    We were just cuddling on the settee and I asked him if he wanted a cup of tea and he said “no”. I said I feel awkward with him because that day we had been to a coffee shop and he had bought a drink for me but then sat there with nothing himself. I was feeling very, very triggered. In fact he was aggrieved to even have to go to the coffee shop – he wanted to sit on a park bench instead. So, I just feel so massively triggered around this stuff.

    In the end I ended up saying it was equivalent to a man that spends hours in the bathroom preening himself. It just feels wrong to me that he is sooooo health conscious all the time – it is just draining to be around – and also he never thinks of what my needs are.


    Well, I ended up muttering loudly that this whole thing was doing my head in. I started really ranting on about it. It was like the whole thing just poured out of me…And then I started sobbing – really, really sobbing.

    I tried to ask him why he was always telling me that he was going to change then?! I said that I keep telling him I am not happy and he says he is really, really wanting to loosen up a bit. He started to tell me about how he also does drink alcohol. At this point I just launched into a massive lecture telling him that on the odd occasion he has asked for a glass of wine it has still been sat there 3 hours later when we are going to bed. And I end up drinking it.

    Also he keeps saying to me he is being more sociable (it’s not just about drinking alcohol!). But he sort of tells me this in a way that sounds like he is taking the mickey out of me. I dunno, something is wrong somewhere…

    Then I told him about the time we went out for a friends birthday and they were running late. Normally, it would be normal for me to go and buy a drink and wait for them in the pub. It was a really lovely put I may add. But D did not want to do this, it was like the thought of this disgusted him. Instead he made me stand outside on the grass for half an hour (there wasn’t even a park bench to sit on this time lol…) and I got freezing cold. And all I kept thinking about was why isn’t he asking me about what I want?!

    We argued some more after that. And some more…

    Then he said he was going to go.

    Then, at that point I thought – we can’t ignore this situation anymore. I more or less forced him to sit down. I looked him square in the eyes and said “Just tell me, are you ever going to change? Will you ever want to do these things like go to the pub for a drink?

    He looked really solemn for what seemed like minutes and then… low and behold… after all these years of him saying how much he wanted to “change” he threw his hands up in the air and said “No, no, I never will change”. What was weird was he was acting like it was the first time I have ever brought this up?!

    Also, usually he fights me, but this time he just got up – said bye and said that he had to go to get his bus. I could tell he was upset.

    All, I want to say for everyone that thinks I’m a nutter to be so aggrieved about this. I thought about it last night after he left. I believe he has a really, really big issue with alcohol and pubs (for non British people – pubs are a big part of our social culture). He seems to feel like they are sleazy and there is something untoward about them.

    I feel soooo sad. Because I know he isn’t making this up, or saying any of this to hurt me. But neither of us can be something that we are not. I told him that I admire and love him so much but that compatibility wise we are not suited. I feel so sad about this, and on some level I think if he truly wanted me he may try to work through his feelings of discomfort.

    Either way, I do realise he’s not doing any of this to hurt me. Wow, I think (she says tentatively) that I have turned a bit of a corner here. I realise how blamey I have sounded in the past.

    I have told him over email today, that I love him very, very much but at the same time I feel like we are not suited. (I’m not sure if that was the right thing to say but I couldn’t think of anything else?!). I also said that I would always been there for him if he needs me. (I’m sure he won’t but I wanted to leave things on good terms…)

    He emailed me back that for the first time he agree because he saw me crying and that really upset him.

    Ahhh… I feel relieved but yet panicky and sad.

    I think deep down I wanted him to still fight for me. Argghhh… when will I be happy?!

    The truth is I’ve always burnt this torch for him and him being in my life has alighted my expectations of him. I have never felt good enough for him and he has always triggered me with some of his relationships with other women. I wanted to be the one so desperately. I feel like sometimes I have played a game..

    Before him I went out with his friend, who I also felt in love with (well, infatuated probably) and he rejected me quite severely and I have never recovered from it.

    When I got together with D I hung on to the hope that he would be “the one”. But sadly no…

    I feel he has strung me along, but truthfully, I have wanted to be strung along. I have wanted him to change for me. To step up and treat me well.

    Tears are rolling down my face as I write this. I wanted him to be “the one”. He is such an alpha male and everything I have wanted physically and with the emotional connection.

    I know now I *have* to lean back. Get back into my life and pick myself up from the bootstraps…

    Love to me xxx

  206.  #206Kath on April 7, 2015 at 5:43 am

    #203 Waterfall,

    Ooh I hear you!- you describe many of the feelings, emotions, arguments with myself I’ve had with R about exactly the same thing!- I want a partner!- I want my man to share a coffee with me-want to chat over a drink-have a laugh with me-be my friend!- I used to get so frustrated because R is very good at “doing” stuff but rubbish at “being”. A fine example was on a holiday to Portugal last year when we visited a place neither of us had been to before. We stood at the wall of the old town and I said “Ooh, which way shall we go?-right? or left?” and he looked at me like I was mad and said “I don’t know, I’ve never been here before”- Grr!- It competely took the excitement and wish to explore out of me! Trouble is, his past was as a career service man-a former marriage where they led seperate lives towards the end and a couple of short relationships where he certainly called the shots!- When I came along and started questioning why he wasn’t discussing things with me or making decisions with me about things that affected the both of us- he viewed it that I was trying to control him!- I couldn’t get him past that and the relationship deteriorated to the point where I blew up one too many times out of sheer frustration and then moved out!- Even recently when there was a chance of us getting back together and I gave my speech about what made me uncomfortable and where I’d like his help to deal with things-he flew of the handle again and said I was controlling him- so I’ve left it. I don’t believe it is old fashioned to want to spend quality time with a partner or to want to do a bit more than simply see a play or a film or whatever the “date” happens to be.

  207.  #207Lovergirl on April 7, 2015 at 6:18 am

    Indigo (199)-

    Sigh…. yes. I have so far to go and so much to work on, it seems. I was first kind of proud of myself because I did cut the conversation short, at least much shorter than usual. Obviously though, it wasn’t short enough and I got triggered.

  208.  #208nyx on April 7, 2015 at 6:18 am


    It certainly sounds like he has an issue about things like this, but it also seems like this isn’t just about pubs, as he was reluctant to go to the coffee shop as well? Something about being inside/among other people/afraid of germs/afraid to spend money/ afraid to put on weight? I have no idea, but… I’d try to (quietly) see if he seems uncomfortable inside at other times/ avoids crowds/ washes his hands a lot and are reluctant to touch things other people touches/ is reluctant to spend money on other stuff/reluctant to eat… or just reluctant to care for your needs.

    But whatever it is, it is his stuff to fix and your job to observe how you feel when with him.

    I think it is obvious one does not want to spend waiting time standing up and freezing if there are other possibilities. So what is more important to him than your well-being?

  209.  #209Femininewoman on April 7, 2015 at 6:37 am

    Thank you April Rose.

  210.  #210Lovergirl on April 7, 2015 at 6:46 am

    Victoria (201)-

    I think jealousy, in this situation and some others, can be a good thing. It brings out one- the fact that we have feelings and care about each other and two- that some things are simply not going to be acceptable. I know that I cannot handle him seriously dating other women while I am there buying his toilet paper and running errands for him. No. Just, no. I absolutely cannot do it.

    He is going to have to make a choice. Its me or finding someone else. I’m not going to sit around and wait on him while he looks, and if he decides to keep looking and discovers that I am, in fact, better for him than any of them…well, it may be too late.

    This is hard for me, but its jealousy that is making it possible for me to take this stand. I don’t really feel that I want another man, if it isn’t S. If this man, that I completely adore, and feel so “right” with, is not right for me, then maybe no one is. In that case, with my 5 children still at home, maybe I’m just better off not being with a man seriously. I can date around, have sex, whatever, but I don’t really want to open my heart to anyone else.

    I find the idea of being with a man who already has children, overwhelming, honestly. Trying to mesh a bunch of personalities together would be very difficult. Brady Bunch aside, I’m not sure I want to give something like that a go in real life. I’m kind of creeped out by a lot of men too, especially those that are older and didn’t have children. I trust S completely, but I find it very hard to trust most men and am especially protective about bringing them around my kids.

  211.  #211Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 6:53 am

    @nyx 207

    That’s almost exactly what I was thinking! He definitely has an issue spending money. He literally lives on very, very little. Buys everything he needs from charity shops, etc. And because of this life style he has amassed a fortune.

    That coupled with the fact that he doesn’t like to be indoors. I don’t think he likes to be around “people” which bemuses me as I am the opposite. In fact this whole situation sends shivers down my spine. I have often had thoughts that if we stayed together I would lose all my confidence and we would become locked in our own little world and he would try to control me.

    I dunno. I feel funny just thinking about this stuff…

    Also, even when we were dating he never left anything at my flat. It literally was one toothbrush (and a cheap and nasty one at that!) and a tube of face cream. Ho hum…

    When he came over to mine he always joked that he lived out of carrier bags! Also, he told me that he had owned lots of properties but he had never made them a “home”. In fact he has just used them as storage places for buying and storing things. He also always had lodges and sometimes they would stay in the living room.

    What was funny was I think this just made me feel “maternal” towards him. I saw him as vulnerable and as an outsider and I wanted to mother him..

    Regards to wanting to lose weight I think this may be true. He would talk about being “hard on himself” – meaning he knew to go without if he wanted to get anywhere in life. He was very self disciplined. In all honesty I just didn’t get it. I think also it was that he wouldn’t open up to me about this stuff and discuss things with me. It just always felt like my needs were invisible. I guess they were to him.

    I always got the impression that he knew how to look after himself. That was why I admired him. But also I felt like I couldn’t live up to the harsh and relentless routine. It just felt so hard, it seemed he was saying life is harsh – get used to it.

    Also, with regards to the germs, I have thought about this. There maybe subconsciously some truth in this. In his mind I think he thought he was “looking after me” because he would always make nice food for us to take out with us, and he would get very excited about it too which I found sweet.

    It made me think that in a primitive way he felt like nothing in the outside world was good enough for us. On the rare times we went out for food to a restaurant he would always meticulously check up on it and whether the food was fresh etc..

    But I think deep down it was just more convenient for him. I think he is scared to invest in a woman (me?!) incase it doesn’t work out. I felt like he was showing me that he didn’t really “care about me”. I dunno…

    I think he held back treating me well. It was like his bargaining tool. I did say to him quite a few times “If you treat me well, then I will treat you well”. But I’m sure that is not really a siren thing to say! And then he would get really intense with me and ask – what is in it for him?

    I think that is the thing for me, when a man really likes you he trips over himself to make sure he can spend time with you so he can’t wait to take you to a coffee shop or pub. It felt to me like D wasn’t really trying. Well, lol, he wasn’t trying at all…

    But lol, I realise how *needy* I sound. Hmmm…

  212.  #212Victoria on April 7, 2015 at 6:54 am

    I see what you mean, and I am here (like the other sirens) to hear you you and support you.
    And I am happy that you sound like you have better clarity now.

  213.  #213Dominique on April 7, 2015 at 6:54 am

    Indigo and Victoria – Apparently there was big changeover with the servers on my end, and SA was being a problem with hackers. The problem has been fixed, and you both should be able to access my site now. Please let me know if you still can’t.

    Love to you both.


  214.  #214Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 6:57 am

    Also, can I add…

    The thing is often he will grab food or a coffee when I am not around (like on the way to me, or when I’m doing something else)

    He’ll quite often grab a pastie or something and eat that, as if to take care of his own needs. Hmm… writing that makes me feel sad it’s like I see the reality of it laid out bare in front of me…

  215.  #215Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 6:59 am

    @Kath 205

    Thank you Kath. You have said it so well. It is the difference between “doing” and “being”…

    I sometimes wonder what men want in relationships?!

  216.  #216Victoria on April 7, 2015 at 7:02 am

    I have dated a man like this.
    A good guy, solid alpha, who does not drink alchohol or coffee or tea, is very athletic, and has amassed a fortune because he never indulges in luxuries.
    He never changed. I tried to change him, begging him, explaining, hinting, suggesting.
    It was just his personality… he would be probably wonderful for someone with the same upbringing.
    I just could not do it at a certain point in time.
    So I found myself a slightly overweight slacker who does not have much money, but likes to eat, drink, indulge, sleep late and is very much in the moment, and adores me, and never makes me feel uncomfortable about who I am and what I want to drink. I am so much better off now.

  217.  #217Victoria on April 7, 2015 at 7:03 am

    I can access you site now, thanks a lot.

  218.  #218Lovergirl on April 7, 2015 at 7:14 am


    Oh, I so feel you about being frustrated with a man who does not want to indulge a little in the pleasures of life.

    I was seeing this guy for a bit that I referred to on here as the “boring” guy. He did not eat any sugar or carbs. He would make dinner for me but I found it unsatisfying, lol. He would take me out but only wanted to go to the same restaurant again and again. He called himself a “creature of habit”. Every Friday night he had to eat chicken wings for dinner. That was the extent of his “indulgence” when it came to food. I was nearly climbing the walls with boredom even with the handful of times I hung out with him. I just found it so…stifling.

    He was successful and physically attractive and very muscular because he worked out a lot. He would send me these texts though, talking about how he was working hard at the gym to look good for me. It just made me want to gag. The idea of a man preening for ME was such a turnoff.

    Actually my ex husband- was into bodybuilding. Oh, how I grew to hate his special diet he was on near the end of our marriage. It involved eating 24 eggs a day (minus the yolks, which he gave to our dog, the dog even hates eggs now). I just get so disgusted with men that are on “diets” now. I suppose I see it as feminine.

    S does not always eat as healthy as he should. He’s a little overweight and I worry a bit about some of his habits (like eating in bed and late at night) but it is also nice to be with a man who can just ENJOY a good meal together.

  219.  #219Lovergirl on April 7, 2015 at 7:35 am

    Waterfall (203)-

    Thank you so much and yes I do tend to refer to S like we are a couple. It just FEELS like we are and have been a couple for the past (almost) year. We have spent so much time together and he has been such a part of my life. HE refers to us as “we” and “us” a lot too. Sigh….

    I hope you don’t mind me saying this, but in your posts I get the feeling that D cannot make you happy. I’m not saying he CAN’T, but perhaps, he is feeling that too. According to Rori and others, men care very much about making us happy, perhaps more than anything else. So if you are giving off that “vibe” it might make it even harder for him to give you what you want.

    One thing I really love about S is that he really likes to meander and enjoy mundane things with me. He likes my company when he is shopping at the grocery store or doing the laundry or just watching tv. I could be doing virtually anything with him and it would be fun. So there ARE men out there that want that.

    He once took me along to the grocery store nearest his house and was giving me the full “tour” of his regular “route”. Haha I just found it very amusing as he explained that this is where he normally goes first, here and then over here… He’s funny though, he stopped buying his favorite bottled water when they moved it to another area of the store. Men can have such silly little quirks and be set in their ways, especially as they get older. They don’t like to change. Granted, S is a Taurus so he may be especially so, but there isn’t a thing on earth I would change about him other than that I would change his mind about wanting to be with ME.

    I wonder if wanting something about a man to be different is just a sign that he is not the one. What do I know though? I don’t seem to be very good about picking “the one” for me. :/

  220.  #220Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 7:44 am

    @Lovergirl 217

    Yes, that is how I feel. It is extremely *feminine* energy to me. It is difficult for me because in other ways I absolutely adore him. He is amazingly affectionate and loving – and he does have the ability to laugh at himself when he realises if he’s being a bit extreme.

    It’s almost like he’s two people. He’s this really down to earth guy one minute, and I feel like I can talk to him about anything. He is a great listener. He is warm and loving and meticulously organised. He can’t ever stop cuddling me or wanting cuddles – which I love and I don’t find this stifling in the least. (I know some people would not like this!).

    We talk about everything and anything and he shares stuff with me. I find this absolutely endearing.

    I dunno. Yes, I can see how in time it would probably get more and more extreme. He would always say to me – you go and get a coffee and I’ll meet you later. And he would say it in a slightly patronising way – the way people sound when they don’t approve of something. It made me feel awful.

    I think though on some level I picked him because I admire him and I want to be like him. I do admire people who have a routine and regime and stick to them – no matter what. I am the opposite I am completely swayed either way – and I really hate this about myself. If a friend wants to go for tea / coffee / a beer / a meal I will dutifully do the same to appease them – even if my own needs are completely different.

    I think if I am totally honest I am triggered by the whole thing. Like, why can’t I change?!

    I think ultimately I might be obsessing over this because in some way it has been *made* an issue (possibly by D himself).

    I know people when I am with fitness people I can also feel really good because of the positive vibes they exude.

    I walked with a mountain guide once who really made me feel good about myself. I noticed I didn’t feel the need to stuff myself with bad food stuffs when I was around him. I felt so inspired food, etc was the last thing on my mind.

    So too I used to be in a running club and we would all go for coffee and cake afterwards and no-one seemed to feel guilty at all..

    I think it’s something about how I *feel* about all of this stuff. Something is not right with me – I always feel this massive guilt and I need to address it…

    Also, living in London I meet a lot of health obsessives. If you so much as say you fancy eating an ice-cream they look at you like you’ve said you want to stick pins in your eyes..

    Lol, judgements… I think that’s what makes me feel really shitty…

    How do I work on this?!

  221.  #221Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 7:57 am

    @ Lovergirl 218

    Yes, you are totally right about D not being “the one” and not being able to make me happy. I still feel sad and angry and bitter about it though because I guess somehow I had become very, very dependent on him. I wonder if on some level he is my “imaginary” boyfriend.

    Whenever I got upset or said I wasn’t happy with how things were between us he would be so passionate and intense about wanting to change them, and that melted my heart because *chemistry* wise I adored him.

    But, yes, I can see that with your S things are very, different as I can sense myself running D down when you always stick up for S and I think that is very endearing.

    I know I run D down a lot and it annoys me that I can’t just be happy with him the way he is. I feel angry with myself. Lol..

    Although I know that I shouldn’t be angry with myself I am. I see myself picking fault with *everybody* and in truth I don’t like myself very much. I have problems fitting in and it seems to be getting worse…

    I can’t imagine going out with someone and getting the right balance! I mean the balance of them liking me and me liking them equally. Believe it or not D is the closest I have ever got to this!! I do think – what is wrong with me? – why can’t I do it/this?

    My ex has just moved in with his new girlfriend and my initial thought was – how does she put up with him? – what do they talk about? When I was with him I found him a know-it-all with a superiority complex.

    Lol… does all this thinking in reality say more about me?! I feel so confused. I feel like I should be perfect all the time and never say anything *bad* about anyone or I will come across as negative, and bad, and bitter. I worry about this? This is something I need to work on I think.

    But Lovergirl your story is inspiring to me because you seem to rise above everything… Ahhh… it is a beautiful image…

  222.  #222Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 8:06 am

    To myself…

    Food to me is such a triggering subject.


    I feel like my needs / wants / whims are often ignored when I’m with others…

    I always seem to dutifully *do* what they want…

    It happened this weekend when I was out with friends. We were supposed to be going “out for Sunday lunch” – instead at the last moment my friend decided to grab fish and chips and eat them by the harbour.

    I know it sounds petty but I felt aggrieved by this that she didn’t even discuss what I wanted to do, and every time I did mention something it was like I was *being* awkward. (Also, I had had fish and chips the night before which she knew and I did not want them again – but I was treated like I was being really awkward)

    What is this about?! I have found this ALL my life, I just seem to go along with other people plans and I seem to be a bystander in everything..

    Lol… Gosh, this all sounds so whingey and whiney… Argh I can imagine how I come across..

  223.  #223Indigo on April 7, 2015 at 8:10 am


    I unfortunately still cannot access your site :/


  224.  #224IamHis on April 7, 2015 at 8:20 am

    Waterfall, you simply sound curious and somewhat conflicted about expressing your own desires. Nothing more, nothing less. I feel you being hard on yourself and I just want to give you a hug!

    Both food and speaking up about my desires are sensitive topics for me too.

    Maybe you could find a way to eat what you want and still spend time with your friends?

    If it seems your desires “annoy” your friends, perhaps it may be best to put some space there. However, you may simply be projecting your own insecurities onto your friends.

    Listen to what your body and feelings are truly telling you and don’t be afraid to forge your own path! Maybe these won’t be your “food friends, ” but you value each other for different reasons.

    I’m sure there’should so many people out there who would make you feel heard and valued in this, but please don’t be so hard on yourself. You are being perfectly reasonable to want to eat what feels good to you! 🙂

  225.  #225Femininewoman on April 7, 2015 at 8:33 am

    I have been able to access Dominique’s site.

  226.  #226Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 9:00 am

    @Iamhis 223

    Thank you! Your words warm me and make me feel sane. Sometimes I drive myself mad with worry about “not being good enough” especially around food.

    I beat myself up all the time. Hmm, how do I turn this around?

    I’m pretty sure I get this from my mum. We are almost the same in this way. She would get ridiculously grumpy with my dad, or with me now, if she could have or find the food that she wanted to eat. You felt like you had to be a mind reader with her all the time. It was horrible. She would never make do! I am the same lol, and I sense all the time I am *being a nightmare* so I guess I possibly project this.

    My Grandma too is the same way. They are very particular about food, what they eat, what time they eat, having access to good food, etc, etc…

    One thing that I notice about D and my friends is how laid back everyone is around food. There is no urgency like there is in me.

    Lol, I always have to have the food / drink routine and sometimes I think it rules my life. Lol, that sounds petty I know!?

    But it’s like I’ve just noticed it. And I envy others who are so much more laid back than me.

    I think that’s why me and D wound ourselves up so much. He wouldn’t even care if he ate or not. Sometimes I would more or less force food on him. This really frustrated me – I would feel like his mum – like “Why don’t you care?!”

    Like one time he said he was going to do dinner and he rocked up to my house with wraps and corned beef and beetroot – and that was dinner. I know it sounds terrible but I was so upset and disappointed – and yet I feel like this makes me a bad person because of this – I truly feel ridiculously conflicted on the subject…


  227.  #227Dominique on April 7, 2015 at 9:02 am

    Victoria – 202 – Though every relationship is different, and some can handle this well, many don’t do well with it. I did write about this before. You may find in interesting/helpful.



  228.  #228Beloved on April 7, 2015 at 9:09 am

    I feel a confused and uncertain how or whether I should even address this situation.
    TG is upset about whatever with RoomieJ, and it came out as being upset that her guy friend was over so much (which, I personally don’t believe is the real issue and..??).
    I know he hasn’t told her he was freaked out about her not answering her door – and still, I don’t feel that’s what’s *really* going on. I don’t know what it is, and I don’t care, what I do care about is that, according to her, he told her that her roommates were complaining about her guy friend being over.
    Which is a lie.
    I told her straight up, I liked her friend and liked having him over and if I had a problem with it, I’d tell HER, not TG.
    TG doesn’t want to be the “bad” guy, which, ironically, drives him to do stuff that makes him the bad guy.
    Which is neither here nor there.
    My focus is, on that I don’t appreciate him telling her that I, as a roommate, had a problem with her friend being over.

    I talked to RoomieJ last night, laid out the facts – this guy was like this before we ever came along. Personally, I feel I can accept it and am focusing on getting more financially secure so I have a little bit of a safety net which makes me feel a LOT better and stronger.
    On the one hand, I feel this is a dynamic between them that is lessons for them to learn. On the other…I feel uncertain whether I should bring it up to TG, and if so, how?

    In the meantime, I am returning the focus to myself again and again. This is reflecting to me how insecure I feel about standing up for myself and facing conflict without enough money to catch me if I need to move out suddenly.

    Hmm…something April Rose said recently just came to mind…
    what if, subconsciously, I need this to be happening? What if, subconsciously, I *need* to feel insecure? I *need* to feel like I must have one foot in and one foot out in case things go terribly wrong?

    On another note, RoomieJ’s grandfather died 2 days ago and she and I had a sweet, intimate interaction. She does NOT like to feel stuff, and tries to be “one of the guys” and act tough so she was spinning.
    I felt so compassionate and present with her – it felt sweet that so much of my practice in self-love was spilling over and I was able to treat her as lovingly and gently as I do myself. I felt impressed by her self-awareness, because she normally puts on such a ditzy blonde act. I felt in a way, as if I were re-parenting her, in a way that honored her as an equal and autonomous being that honored her feelings and experience. I appreciate how REAL she was and how flowy and connected it all felt, even in the middle of the grief and the mental spin (I’m coming to recognize that as “trauma brain” – a feeling comes up that feels so scary the brain creates a big fog of thoughts to sort of run around it).

    I also feel good about how I’m setting boundaries. A friend of mine had a bad date last night – she has 3 boyfriends (poly) who all treat her like a queen, all the sex she wants, and after one bad date with someone she didn’t even like, she wanted to get down on herself. I was feeling stung by a man on OKC who was randomly mean to me, and I told her, “I love you, and, if you want to have a pity party, I don’t feel up for it.”
    She snapped out of it and we started joking and cutting up and both of us came out of our funks and a good time was had by all.

  229.  #229Indigo on April 7, 2015 at 9:20 am

    Lovergirl 209,

    “I know that I cannot handle him seriously dating other women while I am there buying his toilet paper and running errands for him. No. Just, no. I absolutely cannot do it.”

    Again, this is why we were cautioning you against overfunctioning with him. Whether you intend it to or not, it tends to breed resentment of some intensity or other. Either you are ok with being his business partner and running his errands for him, for its own sake, or you are not. For me, I’ve never been comfortable doing this for a man, even a boss. It’s one thing if it’s an occasional thing and I’m going out already, and it’s kind of just “giving back”. That’s fine. My point is, you are starting to become aware of your boundaries and how you feel about these things, and that’s GREAT.

    About the jealousy about dating other people. For a while, D and I were dating other people. We had an unspoken rule not to talk about it to each other. We were very careful not to reference it to each other because we knew it would hurt the other. Once, he responded to my being in a relationship with someone else by going out and hooking up with a random blonde. Another time, he passed along a story about the guy I was dating and tried to convince me to break up with him. And of course, you can only imagine how *I* felt about him dating other women. None of them ever stuck around for more than a handful of dates, on both our sides, because much like how you feel, I just didn’t feel like giving my heart to any other man, and I think he felt the same. I’m not sure what I’m getting at by sharing this, but I think it’s this: navigate this very carefully if your heart’s involved to this extent. Out of choice D and I are not dating anyone else now but I did have to put in clear boundaries for myself. I absolutely could not talk about other relationships to him. And I refused to spend any time with him if there was another woman at all in the picture.

  230.  #230Dominique on April 7, 2015 at 9:27 am

    Waterfall – 203 & 204 – I’m so sorry for your pain and that D didn’t turn out to be your forever man. Yet he IS out there. The kind of man AND the kind of relationship YOU want.

    And what you’re looking for, what you want IS still out there for you. For I have a man and a relationship much like you describe. We rarely, actually never do separate things. When he’s off from work, we’re together BEING with each other. We ARE dependent on each other but in a healthy, we love to hang out with each no matter what we’re doing kind of way. We need each other’s love and company because we’re a couple, we’re pair bonded, and we’re profoundly intimate with each other like no one else.

    You don’t need separate activities to keep things fresh. You can create your own freshness together by exploring new places maybe or new activities – together.

    And I truly believe you CAN have this.

    Much love to you sweetheart.


  231.  #231Dominique on April 7, 2015 at 9:41 am

    Indigo – I let my webmaster know. If I need anything else from you to allow you access, I will email you. He’s been very busy though, so it may take awhile.


  232.  #232Indigo on April 7, 2015 at 9:52 am

    Thank you Dominique <3

  233.  #233Azure Blu on April 7, 2015 at 9:53 am

    {{{{Beloved #227}}}}
    navigating roomate/houshold day to day life IS a skill
    You are doing Fabulous!!

    Thank you for sharing.

  234.  #234Dominique on April 7, 2015 at 12:11 pm

    Indigo – Apparently you were personally whitelisted on the 5th. Maybe either refresh the page, or reboot your computer?


  235.  #235Dominique on April 7, 2015 at 12:16 pm

    Try clearing cookies and caches too.

    Love to you.


  236.  #236Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 12:25 pm

    He tried to call me to see if I was okay, and text me too.

    I told him there was nothing else to say and that we have both tried very hard but we need to move on.

    I said I need a man who is going to look after my needs, and he said that to be fair he had got better at that. Then I got angry and told him that he hadn’t looked after my needs at all. That quite often all we would do would be to sit on a park bench and he would maybe give me a swig of tap water and an apple. I truly felt like I was accepting crumbs – although I didn’t tell him that.

    I then relented and apologised for the text, saying that I know he had tried his best. He then got back to me saying he was sorry that he couldn’t be more “normal” and that he really wanted to apologise to me for that.

    I felt like “meh…” about the whole thing really. I was going to send a text but I realised I was just grasping at straws and trying to get his attention, and also *trying* to get him to change his mind and to step up to the plate a bit more. I realised how manipulative I myself was being…

    It has never been that good between us, in the real girlfriend and boyfriend sense. I realise I have burned a candle inside me hoping that things would get *better* – that he would change.

    I realise I gave him ALL the intimacy that he needed but that really on it’s own, is NOT a relationship. Boy, I wish it was…

    I realise he never *did* relationship with me. He loved the closeness, the physical hugs, kisses etc… But he didn’t want the *relationship* with me. He wasn’t prepared to work at that side of things..

    Maybe I did the classic girl thing of handing him everything on the plate. He told me how much I made him feel like a *man*, and how great that was for him.

    I think I thought that meant he “loved” me too.. But really he just wanted a girlfriend in the background – to give the hugs, to give the support, but not give me any of the romance etc…

    The sad thing is I’ve dated other men who have been just lovely. It’s never really developed to anything major – but I know the difference in how a man is supposed to treat you. Although part of me is not sure about using the words “supposed to…”

    Today when I was out shopping I realised how little I like myself or think that I am worthy of a man. I need to lather love on these thoughts and feelings… Even going around the supermarket I was berating myself for wanting to buy a huge bottle of cheap whiskey, and I also bought some cooked meats and I felt soooo guilty. What is this??! Does everyone feel this guilt..

    I feel so scared to buy stuff. Especially alcohol. If I buy a bottle of whiskey it will go in a week or two and I end up feeling so sh1t about myself… I especially feel like I am NOT a *responsible* adult.

    I always got to thinking about the little girl in me that longs to be cared for by a big, strong man. I wish I could quiet her sometimes…

  237.  #237Azure Blu on April 7, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    Darling, wonderful, vulnerable Siren.
    I feel sad that you are feeling down…

    But you are SOOOO BRAVE and
    YOU have allowed YOURSELF a
    Chance to FLY!!!

    I know from MY experience
    This is REALLY a REbirthing time for you
    as painful as it seems…

    it is such a GRAND opportunity to
    look at each wonderful, ugly, beautiful,
    Magical, icky, sad, unworthy
    Feeling and
    as YOU said…
    love them ALLL
    Slather them allllll with lots of
    YOUR love…
    and realize
    YOU are the ONLY ONE
    who can rescue YOU!!!

  238.  #238Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 1:41 pm

    @Azure Blu 236

    Wow, it is so nice to feel seen and heard by you.

    Your words are like the warm sun on my face and body.

    It feels life affirming and rejuvenating..

    I have just text him back to say “Yes, I do deserve someone to treat me well, I am going to hang out for that”.

    Not sure if that is the siren way?!

  239.  #239Kath on April 7, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    Hey Waterfall,
    Azure Blu is right-we are the only ones who have the power to change who we are and HOW we are. I have had low self esteem all my life and felt ashamed to discover that I was emotionally unavailable too and picked only unavailable men thinking I could change them!- WTF!- It has only been in the last few years that I have started to face all this. R is also unavailable but showed all the signs of not being until we got into the relationship and then things starting smacking me in the face like shoals of wet fish!-
    Hey, why not buy a bottle of cheap whiskey if that will make you feel better-but lock your cell in the drawer before you drink it all!- When R and I broke up it only took me 3mths to spend over 6 thousand stirling!- And why?- all because I felt like crap, felt I had to feel worth something again. The things we do Waterfall-This is an opportunity though, a chance to look inside and see what it is you feel and what you want and to start making those changes. Big hugs to you xxx

  240.  #240Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 1:55 pm

    @Azure Blu 236

    Wow, it is so nice to feel seen and heard by you.

    Your words are like the warm sun on my face and body.

    It feels life affirming and rejuvenating..

    I have just text him back to say “Yes, I do deserve someone to treat me well, I am going to hang out for that”.

    Not sure if that is the siren way?!

  241.  #241Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    @Kath 238

    Yes, it is like someone has taken the blinkers off me!

    I feel calm and serene one minute, elated and happy the next, and crying, scared and need after that…

    Hmmm… so many emotions..

    But yes, hopefully now I have the space to *feel* them in all their glory…

  242.  #242Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    Lol, *needy* I meant not *need*…

  243.  #243nyx on April 7, 2015 at 2:10 pm

    @ Waterfall

    No, don’t buy a huge bottle of cheap whiskey…. buy a small (or huge) bottle of an expensive one! 😉 Then some bath bombs (relaxing and energizing, both), maybe some cava, and some fresh berries, and a great book or some glossy magazines… and hopefully you’ve got a soft towel to prop behind your head in the bath… if possible, another to have ready for you warmed up when you rise… then: a loooong night’s sleep and maybe a great breakfast after that.
    Lots going on inside you, maybe time for a break and reenergizing? Some revelations arrive when we give things some time, and let them sink in…

    Have a lovely evening, dear siren- and all sirens out there as well 🙂

  244.  #244Waterfall on April 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm

    @nyx 242

    I choose Proseco so, very close to Cava! And thoroughly enjoy it I did.. 🙂


    Then whilst shopping I bought a big butternut squash – and proceeded to make a delicious risotto with it..

    Listened to some wonderful relaxing music..

    Yeah, better than cheap whiskey hehe

  245.  #245Azure Blu on April 7, 2015 at 2:40 pm

    Waterfall #238
    I LOVE this!!!
    ““Yes, I do deserve someone to treat me well, I am going to hang out for that”.
    You ARE sooo right!

    AND worthy of All your dreams…

    Mmmmm what a Yummy evening you
    planned for YOU!

  246.  #246April Rose on April 7, 2015 at 3:25 pm

    It feels bad to me to kick a man, even a clueless one, in the guts.

    There are so many subtle ways we can disrespect the masculine.

    I choose to believe that even a man who I perceive has let me down, did his best to make me happy.

  247.  #247April Rose on April 7, 2015 at 3:28 pm


    “I always got to thinking about the little girl in me that longs to be cared for by a big, strong man. I wish I could quiet her sometimes…”

    That big strong man is your *inner boy*.
    Can he care for your inner little girl?
    The more you let him do that, the sooner your man will show up.

  248.  #248Beloved on April 7, 2015 at 3:30 pm

    oooomg, sirens!!
    This week I was feeling stressed out about my $ situation, and every time I noticed my mind freaking out and imagining not being able to pay rent, I switched it around and imagined writing out the check, smiling, feeling good and happy, thinking, “I rejoice in my ability to pay.”
    So, I’m just sitting here after class in the lab minding my own business, working on a project, and the TA yells at me from the back of the room that one of his friends is looking for someone to work the light board at a local church, I don’t even have to program, just hit “go”, 7 hours, for a super nice sum that is way over what I’d expect and enough to cover rent PLUS for the month.
    Oh, my.
    Yes yes yes, happythankyou moreplease!!!

  249.  #249April Rose on April 7, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    “I always got to thinking about the little girl in me that longs to be cared for by a big, strong man. I wish I could quiet her sometimes…”

    That big strong man is your ‘inner boy’ – your masculine energy.
    Can he care for your inner little girl?
    The more you let him do that, the sooner your man will show up in the world.

  250.  #250Beloved on April 7, 2015 at 3:47 pm

    I feel like I’m going to vomit, haha…I feel SO nervous…

  251.  #251Zia on April 7, 2015 at 6:18 pm

    209 – lovergirl:

    ” I know that I cannot handle him seriously dating other women while I am there buying his toilet paper and running errands for him. No. Just, no. I absolutely cannot do it.

    He is going to have to make a choice. Its me or finding someone else. I’m not going to sit around and wait on him while he looks, and if he decides to keep looking and discovers that I am, in fact, better for him than any of them…well, it may be too late.”

    WOOP WOOP! Love this!!! You are amazing, and while I know you can’t imagine having strong feelings about anyone else, TRUST ME! The more you focus on you and heal yourself, the more you’ll open up to others. You don’t need to protect yourself, you don’t need to have your walls up. Walls down, always! THAT is when you are in your true power, because you get to choose to be around what feels good, and you choose not to be around what feels bad. And when you are always open to feeling, you then start to make these choices with everyone and everything and you’ll slowly start to experience more and more good people and good guys and learn what it feels like to be treated like a princess, to be courted, to feel special, to be the one a man is giving all his attention to, instead of being the one that a man is getting to buy toilet paper or run errands for him 😉 xx

  252.  #252laura on April 7, 2015 at 6:52 pm

    hello sirens,

    needing to write it out….

    needing to say…

    i love me….i cherish me…i love all my feelings…even the sad difficult lonely despairing ones….because on the other side of the coin is happy , joy, excited and optimistic….

    yes they co -exist in me….soooo co-exist….

    i was loved by a beautiful man…i was able to love back….

    but i couldn’t go all the way there…because i knew that i would be signing up for someone else’s physical and financial issues…cuz thats how i am…i am open and generous and caring….and starting off with these issues was just causing too much ambivalence and pain for me..

    i feel so sad…he is so beautiful and yet too many unknowns…i could see the trajectory and at my age and stage i just couldn’t go there again…i have been the care giver in my last relationships and i just want to experience something different…

    i want to experience a relationship with little ambivalence…oh my g-d i hope that is possible
    i want to experience true physical and emotional and spiritual intimacy and being with someone i feel at ease with….at ease with who they are and are becoming….

    this man…this last man…i so hope i can find someone like him in so many ways…and someone who is healthier in so many ways too…

    who knows…but my heart is open again…and i thank him and myself….

  253.  #253Millie on April 7, 2015 at 10:01 pm

    What’s a good feeling message to use when you miss something? I think “miss” sometimes has a negative connotation and can come across needy and accusatory. I’ve also thought of turning it into a positive, I love when you do this…. I smile when I think of that night, moment, when this happened…. But I also find that I’m saying because I want something. I want him to do that, reparations that, recreate thst moment…. So it’s not authentic. I want to inspire him again…. But he was most inspired when I did nothing. So, it’s almost like no approach is the right approach. I don’t know.

  254.  #254Femininewoman on April 7, 2015 at 10:24 pm

    Millie I miss you is good.

  255.  #255Mandy on April 8, 2015 at 1:30 am

    I feel so validated hehe. Excellent lovemaking session this morning! Pierced my ear too, in a weird spot, so it was pretty fun…I love weird piercings that aren’t over the edge!

  256.  #256Azure Blu on April 8, 2015 at 4:53 am

    laura #252
    is this lovetodance?

    I love what you are saying here…
    you sound so grounded and powerful!!!
    you have so much love for YOU!!!

    Ahhhh… yes…. the lessons and free therapy
    of CDing!!

    I am sending you vibes for a healthy, loving and energetic man you are Worthy of!!

  257.  #257Azure Blu on April 8, 2015 at 5:16 am

    lovely siren…
    I meant… “who is WORTHY of YOU!”

  258.  #258lovetodance on April 8, 2015 at 5:45 am

    dear azure…of course you would know…perceptive sensitive siren…

    i am riffing

    yes….waking this morning with the full moon shining in on me….

    ohhhh to be open to healing to be open to love to be open to success…true success in all areas of life…not just the ego kind…even tho healthy ego is important..but the kind that goes beyond my ego…to be healing…of myself and others….

    grounded….yes to grounded….to allow in centered-ness grounded-ness….why not….?

    why not allow in and nurture the potential of me to be happy…to be good with what the is-ness is?

    to allow in who i am without investing in outcome…. to let the universe move thro me in positive healing ways for myself and others……

    i like this poetic and real possibility this morning…all the same time the tired old voices going…yeah you say that now…the wheel keeps turning and you know how low you can go…..

    and i say to that voice….you need to rest…you need to
    retire….you are tired and worn out and the need is now for you to change…to allow transformation….

    a daddy long legs just walked across my bed….so delicate, so fragile and elegant…like my prayer this morning…..

  259.  #259lovetodance on April 8, 2015 at 5:56 am

    dear azure…

    thank you for the affirmation..

    ….. ‘a healthy, loving, energetic man worthy of me’….

    that is how i felt about this man except for the healthy part….and i really did feel he was worthy of me…and i’m a bit in awe that the ‘ worthy’ did not feel pompous or narcissistic to me ….about me…

    it felt…yes …. i deserve depth and maturity and hard won wisdom in a man…… coming to me….

    may all this come to us to all of us….to you beautiful azure…

    with all your hard won and refined love…in your dance with spirit…in your dance with all who cross your path…. may this all come to you….reflecting back to you……..

    your grace and beauty!

  260.  #260Femininewoman on April 8, 2015 at 7:33 am

    Just got this piece of wisdom from Lily Jensen. Thought it was good so I am sharing:-

    Desire vs. Need.

    What’s the difference between desiring something and needing it? The difference may seem minor (and it can appear subtle) but in actuality it’s HUGE when it comes to your energetic vibration.

    To need something has the energy of desperation, urgency or fear along with it (whether you are aware of that or not). And those emotions will repel the very thing you wish to have.

    But to desire something is a completely different energy. There is joy, lightness, ease and enjoyment associated with desiring something. Simply noticing or thinking about that thing you desire and feeling the joy that fills you up as you imagine yourself having it. Mmm delicious!

    Feel the difference? It’s big! Remember to always come from a place of desiring the things you haven’t yet created for yourself and you are well on your way to having them.

    Here’s a little trick I use: I intersperse thinking about things I already have in my life that I’m grateful for with switching my focus over to the things I desire having. It helps me keep myself immersed in that open, flowing, appreciative, gratitude energy. Try it!

    Let’s take five minutes right now to practice this. Think about any (or all) the things you wish to have. Spend time identifying whether you have been coming from a place of need or desire pertaining to each thing.

    The wonderful thing about this exercise is that even if you have been coming from a place of need, you can shift your energy around that right now with this new knowledge and replace that desperate feeling of need with one of pure, light desire. So easy! WOO HOO!

    Bonus Action: Throughout Your Day
    As you go out into your day, do your very best to desire the things you want rather than need them. Just be aware, pay attention (no judgment). Shift it if you notice yourself needing things rather than desiring them. And notice how your energy feels when you approach it this way.”

  261.  #261Azure Blu on April 8, 2015 at 7:36 am

    I’m imagining that is your name…
    lovely name…

    thank you for your soft, warm siren song this morning…
    waking the day with lovely melodies,
    prayers for all of us here on Siren Island
    prayers for me…
    i feel your loving vibes are embracing me like a soft, light pink, cashmere blanket
    and I feel my heart is lighter and cared for.
    Thank you!

  262.  #262Azure Blu on April 8, 2015 at 7:46 am

    I feel happy reading this new way of looking at
    Needs vs. Desire…
    I will practice this today.
    thank you

  263.  #263Lovergirl on April 8, 2015 at 7:49 am

    Victoria (212)-

    Yes…of course yesterday I was so sure of myself and today my stomach is just in knots wondering if I made the right decision. S texted yesterday morning to ask “have you cooled down?”

    I responded “S. I can’t buy your toilet paper while you are giving the love and romance to someone else. No. Just no. I will never be able to do that. Ever. I will never “cool down” about that”.

    I think he was a bit taken back at the toilet paper comment, haha. I was probably making a bigger deal in my mind about it because we talked so much about that on here. Not sure if that is a good thing or not. His response was “that’s a very specific example- but I understand”.

    I said I guessed it was symbolic but that I couldn’t handle being the “friend” or errand runner while the man of my dreams dates someone else. I said if she ends up being the woman he spends his life with she is going to want to be the one that is a part of his business and helping him and getting all excited about his successes and that would just leave me sidelined and in pain. He didn’t respond.

  264.  #264Indigo on April 8, 2015 at 7:49 am

    Feminine Woman 260,

    Love this.

  265.  #265Lovergirl on April 8, 2015 at 8:04 am

    Waterfall (220/221)-

    I think part of getting past other people’s judgements is to look inside ourselves and see what WE really want. For so long I was soooo concerned about everyone else and what they thought. I HAD to be. My ex was in ministry and preacher’s wives are held to a very high standard.

    I still keep a lot of my life quiet from people for that very reason, but in the years since my divorce I am really starting to get past that, to I don’t care what you think, this is how I want to live my life. I’ve gotten away from the church and some of the people that were the most judgmental, but I still feel like a lot of that is hanging over my head. Some of these “friends” are still hanging around on my facebook but I feel bad deleting them and haven’t yet. Hmmm… maybe that is something I need to consider ;).

  266.  #266Beloved on April 8, 2015 at 8:05 am

    Azure Blue – thank you ! Yes, it’s a dance for me with “what’s really important?” “what really needs my attention?” “am I really in danger and do I need to take action, or is it ok to focus on my homework?” lol.

    Yesterday evening, I went to the theater to help focus lights, dress the cables, do whatever needed. My general strategy is to show up for whatever, that whatever I might lack in skill I can make up for in just being there, being willing to do and to learn, it seems to be working 🙂
    I was watching a classmate focus lights from the genie lift, at about 30 feet in the air. I was talking to another classmate about asking to do that, to, so I could get the experience and also some encouragement because I felt scared and shy.
    So, I screwed up my courage, asked if I could focus the next set and…next thing I know, I’m 30 feet in the air. Which…normally, isn’t a big deal. I don’t feel scared of heights, I LOVE to climb the trusses and ladders. The lift was a whole different thing, though, because it sways and hoooo boy…
    Once I got to the lights, the electric (the bar the lights are hung on) was swaying, I was swaying in the genie, and I broke out into a scalding sweat. I felt like I was getting hives and I had to center and breathe and ground down DEEP into my belly.
    It’s not just standing on the swaying genie, it’s also arms raised over my head, working with big heavy lights that are also swaying and I can’t grab the pipe if I lose my balance because it isn’t stable, it’s suspended on chains.
    Whoooo…the fear, the fear…!
    DEFINITELY out of my comfort zone, there.
    I said to my instructor, “this will get better, right?”
    He does this hilarious thing where he SAYS, “Yes, absolutely, sure, that’s exactly how it works, it’s going to get better and better!” while emphatically shaking his head NOOOOOOOOO (I’m cracking up laughing thinking about it), which was my cue to suck it up and get comfortable with the discomfort.

    I felt proud of myself, and how perfect it all was. Initially when a classmate was chosen for Assistant lighting designer and board op (controlling the lights from the board), I felt jealous, because I want more experience on the board. Instead, though, I got to experience way more by being on the crew, while she was sitting at the desk, punching a button every now and then. So, I got more of what I really wanted.

    This feels so sweet and feels like a million light years from where I was just a couple of years ago, feeling stuck at a job that I hated and feeling entangled with inappropriate men 🙂

  267.  #267Lovergirl on April 8, 2015 at 8:11 am

    Indigo (229)-

    I love helping S with his business. But with another woman, that he says is “very successful” in the picture, it suddenly feels demeaning. I feel like in comparison, it makes me unsuccessful and someone he looks down on. It’s a matter of pride, I guess, rather than overfunctioning.

    You’re final comment ” And I refused to spend any time with him if there was another woman at all in the picture.” I think this is going to be how I approach it. I just cannot handle seeing him while there is another woman in the picture. It hurts too much. I’m glad you and D have worked things out and I hope it ends up that was for S and I too, but right now, I just can’t deal.

  268.  #268Lovergirl on April 8, 2015 at 8:19 am

    Zia (251)-

    I have always FELT that S treated me special and gave me lots of attention. So that isn’t the issue. He is a good guy, 100%. I enjoyed running errands WITH him and I know buying him toilet paper wasn’t really a commentary on how he feels about me. He has always treated me like a partner and not just an “errand runner”.

    I just can’t handle him dating another woman. I don’t WANT any other man to have my heart. I’m most definitely NOT ready for that. If things don’t turn around with S I have a feeling it will be a very long time before I want that, if ever.

  269.  #269lovetodance on April 8, 2015 at 8:21 am

    fabulous fabulous beloved!

    oh your courage…your strong boy! your knowing girl!

    right on sister siren!

    many kudos and i am inspired by you!

  270.  #270lovetodance on April 8, 2015 at 8:22 am


    someone said here recently i believe….

    life begins at the edge of our comfort zone…
    wow….taking on new and fresh and real meaning for me all the time!

  271.  #271Beloved on April 8, 2015 at 8:23 am

    “To need something has the energy of desperation, urgency or fear along with it (whether you are aware of that or not). And those emotions will repel the very thing you wish to have.”

    I disagree with that need automatically has the energy of desperation, and I also disagree with the belief that fear is bad or repellant.
    This feels like a mind game to avoid feeling and loving the fear or desperation.
    Yesterday, I was swimming in fear…real fear that made me shake, feel giddy, lightheaded and sweat like a pig.
    Nobody ran away from me, nobody was repelled…if anything, I earned some major respect points because it was obvious how scared I felt, I didn’t try to hide it, and I did the job anyway without making a big scene or giving in to the fear.

    I believe that we feel so scared to feel need and to feel desperation from when we felt helpless as infants. It reminds us how vulnerable we were once and so many of us cannot bear to let those feelings surface again, cannot bear to remember how awful it felt to be a little baby or child crying for our mother and it seeming like an eternity for someone to come give us food, change our diaper, give us attention, whatever.

    When I first moved in with TG, in a meditation I felt moved to feel very present with how deeply I truly needed him, in my heart. It felt SO good, to feel that feeling coursing through my heart, the feelings of “need” and “needing HIM”.

    We all deal with stuff in our own way, and, personally, I have found it to be WAY more useful to just feel the fear, feel the need, feel the desperation and not play games with my mind to run away from it. My mind changes on it’s own when I feel the stuff I need to feel. I don’t feel joy and lightness are inherently better or more desirable than any other feeling or state of being, they are simply different and when I stop striving to try to “achieve” or “get to” states of joy and lightness, I discover that there is a joy and lightness in all of it, even the fear, even the desperation, even the need.

  272.  #272Beloved on April 8, 2015 at 8:33 am

    lovergirl – “I responded “S. I can’t buy your toilet paper while you are giving the love and romance to someone else. No. Just no. I will never be able to do that. Ever. I will never “cool down” about that”.

    This made me grin – it sounds so sexy and fiesty and honest, I love it. I love seeing this side of you 🙂

    I feel a little baffled that you feel he is a 100% good guy – in my mind, a 100% good guy wouldn’t have said the things he said and acted the way he did when you were pregnant, and a 100% good guy would have moved heaven and earth to drive you to the hospital. At the same time, I have been there myself…right down to driving myself to the hospital in the middle of a miscarriage and I felt totally in love with the man at the time. So, I’m not judging, I just feel like…maybe some things are being glossed over a bit, or maybe you don’t realize that it’s really possible to have a man who really IS 100% good guy. Doesn’t mean I feel he’s a bad guy, I do feel he’s kind of weak, though. Again, not judging, just saying…I feel a broader perspective might be needed here.

    I really like seeing you fight for yourself, though. I want to jump up and down and cheer …Yes! Go, go go!! 😀

  273.  #273Beloved on April 8, 2015 at 8:40 am

    Azure Blue – isn’t it funny, that getting out of our comfort zone means…really, literally, getting physically out of our comfort zone?? !! Now I have a new comfort zone, of feeling comfortable working up in the air while everything is moving and swaying and feeling like a hot mess.

    lovergirl – a while back, Rori recommended a movie call “happythankyoumoreplease”. While, I couldn’t totally relate to the characters, there is a scene where a woman tells her partner she is pregnant it just blew me away. I had NEVER imagined a man would react the way he did, and I sobbed, literally broke down and sobbed like a big fat baby when I saw that scene. I know it’s a movie, and, I realized that it wasn’t unique and a fairy tale, that lots of women are partnered with men who feel EXCITED for a baby, who really deeply love their partners. My baby-bearing years are over – and – I found that movie to be incredibly healing so I wonder if you might also get something out of it.
    Or not…just throwing it out there 🙂
    Big hugs to you!!

  274.  #274Azure Blu on April 8, 2015 at 9:45 am

    Wow… lovely Siren.
    ME TOOOOO!!!
    “This feels like a mind game to avoid feeling and loving the fear or desperation.”

    That is EXACTLY what I have found…

    totally accepting the needy,
    angry, shamed… ALL MY feelings

    Just sitting with those beautiful feeling that *I* have…. has brought me sooo much peace and LOVE

    this should be repeated!!!
    “My mind changes on it’s own when I feel the stuff I need to feel.”

    Yes, Yes!!! there *IS* joy and lightness in
    MY FEELINGS… this belief has

  275.  #275Indigo on April 8, 2015 at 9:55 am

    Beloved 271,

    I love what you’ve said here too. Possibly because of my background, when I have a need – that is, for me, something which is more pressing or essential than just a desire – I usually first try to fill it myself, and then I turn to others if I cannot. Of course there are times when I just gratefully receive from others fulfilling a need of mine – such as when someone cooks me dinner, or if a kind man helps me change the tyre on my car. And of course, there are times when I can’t fill the need on my own, and then I reach out to others. I don’t feel “desperate” doing that, which seems to imply something shameful in it. Sometimes, I just have a need and I need help and I express it, and if that person responds I express gratitude. This is an honest, clean interaction and I don’t see any sense in feeling bad about it. Sometimes I may need a lift to the doctor because I can’t drive myself. Sometimes I may be extremely low and need a hug. I try to love myself through these times and not attach any guilt to having “needs”. These sorts of situations have bonded me to others more than once, and I think they’re good actually.

    I think the problem comes in when I have a need, and I operate from a place of “urgency” and placing undue responsibility on the other person. I believe this is the kind of “neediness” that can push another person away because of the pressure they feel. Or sometimes when you want something so much that you focus on it too much and set yourself up for a fall. In both cases I believe it is us neglecting other important things, and I think sometimes our not getting the thing we think we want or need, or the other person backing away from us, is a reminder for us to tend to other parts of ourselves/ our psyches/ our lives. Or it is a lesson we need to learn. But I believe it all comes back to utter love and gentleness for the self, and all the things we go through. Honouring our needs, not suppressing them.

    I also completely agree with you that joy and lightness in and of themselves are not better than any other emotion. They’re wonderful to experience, when they come from authentic inner peace, and I think they are nice to be able to access in difficult times. But not as standards to hold ourselves to.

  276.  #276Femininewoman on April 8, 2015 at 10:07 am

    It’s amazing how people see things differently.

    For me the fact that the article says “need” has the energy of desperation and urgency didn’t hit my psyche that it was saying “I” was desperate if I had a need. I read it as the word carries that energy so just by changing the word we use to express our need, the energy of a statement can change. Maybe I view it separate from myself as I have come to accept that I have the power through my thoughts and things I visualize to change my energy. I also do believe that everything is energy, including words, so I can choose.

  277.  #277Azure Blu on April 8, 2015 at 10:51 am

    I agree with this…
    “I think the problem comes in when I have a need, and I operate from a place of “urgency” and placing undue responsibility on the other person.”

  278.  #278Dominique on April 8, 2015 at 11:36 am

    Femininewoman – 260 – Interesting. I wrote something similar back in 2012. You might find it helpful, Indigo and everyone else too.



  279.  #279Waterfall on April 8, 2015 at 12:01 pm

    Sirens, just quickly catching up as I was really grateful that you were there for me yesterday..

    I was back at work today so I didn’t have much time to think about D.

    He did email me and said he was upset about me saying that he never took me for a drink. He also pointed to a time when he had felt he had completely looked after me and making sure I had dinner etc..

    I have to say, I my heart melted (as it always does)

    It’s so hard, in many ways he is the most loving man – but albeit weak. He cooks for me all the time, shops for me – he’ed buy my Tampax if I asked him to (or even if I didn’t ask him to!). In his way he TOTALLY pampers me.

    BUT then I think that he get’s annoyed with me because he feels that he is giving, giving and giving and receiving nothing in return. (I know I shouldn’t get into his head!)

    He’s a bit like a little boy saying “But I did this, this and this for you… and you have done nothing for me.” And then he stomps his foot and pouts…

    Ahh, it’s so difficult.

    I did respond to him and apologised and said I was just feeling upset and I know he did his best.

    That seemed to smooth things over.

    He then said something weird. He said how he feels we are like brother and sister. Or he see’s me like a sister as in he feel really protective over me. I know he does.

    If I asked him for anything he would be there. Well, he would try.

    Hmm… I do feel confused. I know he is wrong for me, but I still miss the closeness in that way.

    I know I can be strong though. Even if it’s more for him than me…

  280.  #280Liquid Light on April 8, 2015 at 12:10 pm

    Total face plant on my feeler text to the guy about going to the fancy inn. Haven’t heard a peep back and I sent the text two days ago. I feel so embarrassed and humiliated….and relieved. Now I don’t have to be hung up on him and can move on. Wow, can’t believe he would diss me like that!!!

    In other news, I got moved at work to a much better cubicle! This is big news because there was a memo that went out from upper management that no one would be allowed to move. That the cubes that we were given to us were set and to just deal with it (in so many words.) And then yesterday the admin came by and said I got permission to move!!! And got to pick my new spot! I couldn’t believe it. I think I’ve got an angel looking out for me sometimes! 🙂

  281.  #281Femininewoman on April 8, 2015 at 1:13 pm

    Oh Dominique I loved reading that article. At the end I felt like ooh and aahh to light butterfly free flowings feelings it elicited inside me.

  282.  #282Femininewoman on April 8, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    “A belief is only a thought you continue to think”

    This gives me such great hope that I can change my beliefs to magnetize the things I want to me. It makes it seem so easy.

  283.  #283Waterfall on April 8, 2015 at 2:56 pm

    I’m feeling in pain again emotionally..

    D is still on my mind and I was starting to think about things..

    I remembered how when we were on holiday he seemed to disown me for another group of friends. He did this a lot, and I felt not good enough..

    I felt triggered today looking at FB and various groups of friends who all seem to have such a great time together but whenever I try to be included I get completely shunned. Why is that?!

    I always feel so out of the loop, so not popular…


    Literally on FB there are 40 or so people that all seem to be friends but for some reason don’t like me. Lol, I know that sounds pathetic – but I do think – what is wrong with me? It’s like they don’t even notice I am there.

    Like my boss at work, he almost always dismisses what I have said in a way that makes me feel invalidated. I feel like I have to work so hard even for him to acknowledge that I exist. He seems to like certain people, but they appear to be the “chosen few”.

    I can’t work any of this out? Did I do something wrong? Say something wrong? Why are some people popular and some people not….

  284.  #284Dixie on April 8, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    I feel such a well of emotions inside I need to just release them here….

    Sirens, I think I mentioned here a while back that my retired parents, in their 70s, were the victims of financial fraud three years back. I was affected too, but not quite so badly. D was very supportive while I dealt with the shock…

    Now, three years later, my parents, who I love dearly, must sell the family home. In the meantime, after my divorce, I sold my own home, and am now living in the condo of my dreams. Ive always known that I would move to a bigger space eventually but I imagined keeping this lovely place as a rental income.

    Now, when I went out to dinner with steadyCD a few weeks ago, well, finance is his field and he suggested that to help my parents, I sell my place, and become co-owner of their house. Ladies, I love my parents dearly and it is so hard to see them worry about finances at this age. Yet, I love the security and privacy of this beautiful haven. Anyhow, I proposed the idea to them a few weeks ago. It is not my first choice for me, because it feels overwhelming, but I can’t bear to see them struggle for money with the little they would make from the sale of the house.

    Dad called today, and sounds interested in the idea. And now that it feels like this might actually happen, instead of feeling relieved for my parents, I feel
    this tightness inside. I’ve always dreamt of sharing a home with my Forever Man, to lay my head beside someone at night and feel that tenderness. I know everything will work out, but I guess because I can’t see how those two dreams could co-exist, I’m feeling anxiety inside.

  285.  #285Dixie on April 8, 2015 at 3:22 pm

    I’m afraid that I sound like I’m complaining…. I’m not. I feel so blessed to have a beautiful little condo and to even have the potential ability to help out Mom and Dad. I suppose on some level, life is unfolding in a different way than
    I imagined (again) and it leaves me feeling just a little…shaky. Life is about change, right? And things will work out the way they are meant to, right?

  286.  #286April Rose on April 8, 2015 at 3:45 pm


    Wow. I feel for you. I have always wanted a place where I feel good and happy. You have one.

    I would feel uneasy about making such a sacrifice for my family. I know you love your Mom and Dad and I’m sure they know you love them too, no matter what.

    I would ask myself if I’d feel resentful down the line.
    Every girl deserves her freedom and the chance to build a life with her partner. I’m sure your parents wouldn’t want you to cut down your chances of this.

    If it were me, I’d trust that they will be fine, whatever happens. And I certainly wouldn’t make any decisions based on guilt or obligation.

  287.  #287Kim on April 8, 2015 at 5:12 pm

    Feeling profound sadness tonight….a boyfriend from almost 20 years ago, well I often refer to him, because it was indeed my best (5 years) relationship…he is a great man…
    Well, he contacted me some time ago to say he might be coming on a holiday. and today, he sent me a message and opened up that he is separated from his wife. They cannot have children and it is ‘his’ problem, and he did not want adoption, so their marriage failed.
    I feel SO sad for him.
    I knew they must be in trouble but I never knew the details. He sounds like a broken man who is trying to put on a brave face, talks of feeling guilty and so on….it is hard to see this.
    It feels unfair.
    Wedding vows..in sickness and in health…but not if the sperm isn’t swimming well enough…. 🙁
    Here is an amazing, good, faithful alpha man and apparently he is not enough….and it makes me realize that, well, it means for all of you and me (well I am happy right now), there are men like this out there….good men…
    I never thought he would ever get divorced, he is so relationship able and healthy and emotionally sound.
    The men are out there!!
    He will make someone else’s great husband once he is healed, no doubt.
    I just feel sad for him.
    Oh well…I also feel incredibly amazed he opened up to me because so far only a handful of people know.

  288.  #288Lovergirl on April 8, 2015 at 5:56 pm

    Beloved (272)-

    I didn’t think of it as sexy at the time, lol. I was just hurt and angry. I’ve been seeing red all day today. I’m feeling a lot of rage about the whole situation.

    As far as him being a good guy, I know the things he said sounded awful, but I also know he didn’t mean it. He has apologized more than once about it and I can just see where his heart is. I knew, even at the time, that he knew better than to say those things and it was said out of hurt and confusion. S is an emotional guy and sometimes just says whatever is on his mind, very bluntly.

    As for him not coming to the hospital…we had gotten into an argument before I drove there and I didn’t say “hey I am going to the hospital, can you drive me”. I didn’t tell him until after I was already there, where I was. I was angry and resentful and hurt that he didn’t show up, but it also was not a completely fair expectation. It could very easily have been he was just clueless that I would expect that, as men often are about our expectations. He was asking me questions and checking up on me over text.

    It’s one of those things that I COULD hold over his head forever or be angry about, but I chose to forgive him. His apologies seemed sincere. I know that he was a mess of emotion about the whole thing, as was I.

    Both times when I was pregnant, S flipped out before coming around and wanting to make serious life changes because of it. I know that if the pregnancy had continued, he would have been there 100%. He said as much himself and I just know how he is. He had been secretly looking to buy a house over here by me and was working hard to make plans and the roller coaster of it all was too much for him.

    I’m reminded though, when I talk about S on here, that he is NOT the man for everyone. A lot of women might find him difficult. I am kind of taking solace in that right now.

    I just know he is not going to end up with the “very successful” woman with one child that pays for their dates. He’s already feeling a bit emasculated and I know how he loves to be the “boss”. He just LOVES (playfully) lording it over me when I work for him. I just roll my eyes and play along, but I know he ENJOYS that kind of dynamic and I can already feel that this woman probably won’t.

  289.  #289Lovergirl on April 8, 2015 at 6:47 pm

    Beloved (273)-

    Now I want to watch that movie! It’s not on netflix though. :p

  290.  #290RileyTheOwl on April 8, 2015 at 7:56 pm


  291.  #291RileyTheOwl on April 8, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    those noises are how I feel right now.

  292.  #292Victoria on April 9, 2015 at 12:46 am

    @ Lovergirl 263.
    I am following your story with great interest.
    I can relate to you insisting that he is a good guy… I have been in your shoes, I was 20 something at the time, and several of my friends were trying to hint that my boyfriend was not treating me right, and was cheating on me etc., and I was just so insistent that he loved me, I would just get mad at people trying to suggest otherwise. I was also absolutely, 100% sure, that I would never ever love another man… At the same time, this relationship has taught me some very hard life lessons, so in a way it was a necessary part of me growing up.
    I hope what I say does not trigger you, and I hope you understand that what each of us says to you here is very much a projection of our own life experiences and trauma… and that none of us here has any other agenda than to help heal, for you and for ourselves.
    Are you still going to Chicago?

  293.  #293Indigo on April 9, 2015 at 7:58 am

    Lovergirl 288,

    “I’m reminded though, when I talk about S on here, that he is NOT the man for everyone. A lot of women might find him difficult. I am kind of taking solace in that right now.”

    I won’t go into too much detail, but I really do know what you mean.

  294.  #294Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 8:05 am

    Were you able to move to your Mom’s?

  295.  #295Beloved on April 9, 2015 at 8:10 am

    lovergirl – I hear you, and, it still sounds like making excuses for him. That being said, I do appreciate how much you’ve shared, and hearing more about where you’re coming from.
    I feel nothing but respect and honor for your perspective, life, choices and experience right now and I have no desire or agenda to change your mind or to have to do anything differently or be anyone but yourself! I feel I’ve said what I feel and think about S, you know, you get it…I won’t harp on it.

    I feel getting in touch with the anger and rage is a good, good thing. I feel it’s a healthy response and even though you didn’t feel sexy, I swear I leaned back, smiled and thought, “wow!”

    I hope you have a really great time with the Chicago guy and I’m looking forward to hearing about your adventures!

  296.  #296Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 8:13 am

    Waterfall #283
    Ahhh… Hurrray for YOU!!!

    it seems to me, you are looking closer at some triggers and feelings that are begging for YOUR
    I have grappled with this very thing over the years…
    Rori’s tools have lifted this vision I had of MYSELF and the WORLD…
    Slowly, baby steps, as I began to understand allllll the many ways *I* Rejected ME…
    *I* kept ME out of MY loop
    *I* ignored and disliked ME
    and started slathering LOVE alll over me and MY GLORIOUS feelings…
    listening to MY feelings… LOVING each ONE carefully, softly, compassionately
    I began to LIKE/LOVE *ME*
    and of course everything changed!!!
    Thank you RORI and SIREN ISLAND!!!

  297.  #297Victoria on April 9, 2015 at 8:15 am

    How are things with Spirit?

  298.  #298Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 8:20 am

    {{{Dixie}}} #284-5
    Geee… this is such a big decision…
    How loving to offer to co-own and sell your place.
    Do you have any siblings that might help out also?

    This would be for 20 or more years…
    Maybe you and your Forever man could move in together at his place… when the time was right.
    many questions…
    this must feel overwhelming…
    Look closely at the triggers and feelings that are coming up…
    What are they?

  299.  #299Beloved on April 9, 2015 at 8:27 am

    Oh, by the way, I googled and found happythankyoumoreplease streamed online, on a site that isn’t Netflix.
    Last night I went out to an event and met up with a friend who is visiting from out of state.
    For some reason, I just felt weird and disjointed – I’ve felt like this with her before.
    I felt anxious and didn’t feel I could totally relax.
    I felt slightly conflicted, because I chose to miss out on working in the theater last night to meet with her. I see her so rarely, she is having serious health issues, she is one of my closest friends soooo, seeing her was my priority.
    She introduced me to a guy and we started talking lighting and sound, he asked me if that’s what I wanted to do and I told him YES!
    Well, he told me he works for a local well-known production company and was giving me some inside and useful information.

    I kind of felt like jumping up and down inside. In the past, I had felt very dependent on my more extroverted exes for making connections. One was a musician, I worked in his bar and our business together was focused on his dreams and desires and I met so many people through him. Another, an artist, who had been involved in the community for years and years and was a connector of sorts, and I relied on him for my connections. When they went away, so did all of the superficial, social networking-type connections.
    So it felt like a minor victory tonight…even though I was introduced by my friend, I felt like it was a connection *I* was making, through being me and doing what I do.

  300.  #300Beloved on April 9, 2015 at 8:33 am

    Oh, Azure Blue – I appreciate this reflection and reminder SO much right now!

    “Slowly, baby steps, as I began to understand allllll the many ways *I* Rejected ME…
    *I* kept ME out of MY loop
    *I* ignored and disliked ME
    and started slathering LOVE alll over me and MY GLORIOUS feelings…
    listening to MY feelings… LOVING each ONE carefully, softly, compassionately
    I began to LIKE/LOVE *ME*”

  301.  #301Lovergirl on April 9, 2015 at 8:34 am

    Victoria (292)-

    Yes, I am going to Chicago this weekend. I am excited about the trip and its fun to have a man that kind of “replaces” S as far as taking me places (S has always liked to take me out for new experiences/restaurants). Still, I feel a little guilty because I am just not that into this guy at all.

    I know everyone has good intentions and is relating their own experiences. Every relationship is different though and every man and I just can’t think of S as a bad person. He is very much, like me, in so many ways and I feel we understand each other.

    I’m not counting on it working out and maybe someday I will love someone else. I’m definitely not anywhere near ready for that right now though. I haven’t talked to him since that text the other day and I don’t see any reason to.

    In a way I feel GOOD about telling him I won’t hang around while he dates this other woman. I am stressed about the loss of income but its not worth my pride. I miss S, but I am also angry with him for even thinking that another woman might be a better option than me. That anger is making it much easier.

  302.  #302Lovergirl on April 9, 2015 at 8:35 am

    Victoria (292)-

    Yes, I am going to Chicago this weekend. I am excited about the trip and its fun to have a man that kind of “replaces” S as far as taking me places (S has always liked to take me out for new experiences/restaurants). Still, I feel a little guilty because I am just not that into this guy at all.

    I know everyone has good intentions and is relating their own experiences. Every relationship is different though and every man and I just can’t think of S as a bad person. He is very much, like me, in so many ways and I feel we understand each other.

    I’m not counting on it working out and maybe someday I will love someone else. I’m definitely not anywhere near ready for that right now though. I haven’t talked to him since that text the other day and I don’t see any reason to.

    In a way I feel GOOD about telling him I won’t hang around while he dates this other woman. I am stressed about the loss of income but its not worth my pride. I miss S, but I am also angry with him for even thinking that another woman might be a better option than me. That anger is making it much easier.

  303.  #303Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 8:43 am

    Ahhhh… funny you should ask…
    I’m feeling sad and longing for a man in my house in my bed….today…

    Yes, things are VERY good… we spent the last 6 days in contact… 3 days in a row together (not spending the night) dancing, introducing me to some of his dancing spots and friends…
    He came over to my house on Sunday and met my family!!!
    He was sooo adorable, handsome, classy,
    engaging with my whole family so well..

    My sister’s family is ultra liberal – some of their best friends are well known liberal celebrities… (sooo extremely opposite of Spirits politics)
    the conversation drifted to some project
    my brother-in-law is involved in…
    Spirit reached over to me and said “How am I doing, Auzure?” sooo charming…
    I’m smiling and my heart is expanding thinking of it…

    BUT my Confused Voices are sad because we aren’t spending nights together…
    His daughter is starting a new job… which requires more time from him (in the beginning)
    I can’t even imagine how she can keep a job
    My sister has kept a job for years (she has schizophrenia) sooo who knows…

    I feel confused about how things should go in this new path on our relationship… I feel there has been a natural back and forth… but I am leaning back again…
    I am feeling lonely… I have lived alone (my son lives with me now) for over 20 years (children – no men)
    Soooo craving a man in my house
    in my bed…
    I’m feeling sad today…

  304.  #304Lovergirl on April 9, 2015 at 8:53 am

    Indigo (293)-

    I very much get the feeling you understand! In a way its a relief to me that he is probably going to be hard for other women to handle, lol. It makes me feel that he will eventually regret trying to look elsewhere. I love him as is and a lot of women are going to see things that they think need to be changed.

    Its been the case though, with virtually every guy I have ever been involved with in any capacity, that once we “break up” they always regret it. Of course its always been when its too late and I have no desire to take them back. Maybe men just work that way, absence making the heart grow fonder and all that.

    It would be nice if, for once, a man recognized that BEFORE it was too late. If not though, well, life goes on….

  305.  #305IamHis on April 9, 2015 at 9:02 am

    Well, Tim Tebow shaved. & I could instantly tell how very YOUNG he is. He is ten years younger than me, to be exact.

    He knows how old I am, but I don’t know how he feels about it.

    A couple of days ago, he was behind me, and I didn’t even realize it.

    I was moving kind of quickly, & I turned around and BAM! He was like this wall behind me.

    I said, oops, sorry. & he just went, that’s okay. And he just…kept standing there…all tall and big and sturdy and strong.

    & my hands developed a mind of their own & before I knew it I was absent-mindedly reaching back to touch him with the back of my hand and then kind of pulling him into a hug.

    I noticed when I attempt to look at him he gets really nervous. I’ve caught him checking me out several times.

    It just feels scandalous because he is such a baby! But I feel incredibly safe with him close. I feel curious to get to know him better. Gotta keep leaning back…

  306.  #306Lovergirl on April 9, 2015 at 9:03 am

    Thank you Beloved (295 and also 299)-

    I need to look up the movie elsewhere and also the movie Knocked Up that was recommended on here before. Seems nothing is on Netflix anymore. :p

    I know it seems like I am making excuses for him. I just can’t see S negatively though. He’s really pretty wonderful. I only hope that some time to think about it will make him recognize the same in me.

    It doesn’t make me any less angry. It’s like come on S, you know we have something special and no one is going to measure up to that, but okay, if you insist, go out there and see for yourself. I’ve been with enough men to know that a connection like that is not easy to find.

  307.  #307Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 9:25 am

    I’m wondering should I text Spirit and ask him
    how things are going…

    The calling on the phone is sooo random with him…
    I’m not sure if it’s leaning forward for me
    to make a call when I know he is stressed about his daughter…
    is this leaning forward if its a 7 months relationship (it has been off and on)
    He has been sooo upset about how his daughter has turned into a bully in his house… yellling and screaming about random stuff
    talking back and being sooo very negative!!!

    His Daughter – A- is supposed to come over, this week, and talk to the daughter with schizophrenia – E- about how badly she’s been acting
    and how disrespectful she is
    and maybe she needs to find somewhere else to live if she can’t stop!!!

    I think the part is if I am expecting a certain outcome… If I am purely interested in his well being… no expectations…

  308.  #308Femininewoman on April 9, 2015 at 9:34 am

    Azure – Rori has said it is okay to lean forward a little with a committed man. Also if you are experimenting and learning this could be about being curious of how he will respond so you know moving forward.

  309.  #309Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 9:43 am

    FeminieW ohhhh… thank you for your wise counsel!!!
    Yes, this makes sense…
    When I read your post…
    I made a call to him… it went to message
    I said how good it felt to hear his voice and then went on to ask about his daughter etc…
    and share a little about my day…

    I AM curious to know how he will respond to me making this call…
    We haven’t really done the how is your day…
    wondering how this went… phone call

  310.  #310Femininewoman on April 9, 2015 at 9:56 am

    Dominique’s words

    “So does this mean that you must NEVER initiate, that you must allow your man to take charge at all times, that he must always come to you, that you must never do for him, give to him?

    Absolutely NO.

    If you feel inspired to reach out to a man AS LONG AS you have no expectation of receiving anything back, then go ahead.

    In a deeply committed, profoundly intimate, love relationship there WILL be more of a FLOW, a giving and receiving back and forth.”

  311.  #311Beloved on April 9, 2015 at 10:23 am

    lovergirl – my friend I saw last night is also friends with my ex and they stay in touch (they both live in another state). He and I broke up 6 years ago, and I went no contact about 1-1/2 years ago, so she caught me up on him a little bit. I asked her if he is still single and she said yes. I laughed and laughed and laughed. Really? he thought he was going to do better than MEEE and six years later he is STILL single??

    I’ve seen a funny meme of a skeleton sitting on a park bench with the caption “my ex, waiting for someone better than me”…ha!

    I’m also giggling realizing, without CDing, that could be me…”Me, waiting on my ex to change/validate me/realize what a great catch I am”, lol.
    Who am I kidding, that WAS me!! Ha. I still get caught up in that, like right now when I’m on the internet gabbing away instead of studying and investing my own potential….yikes…

  312.  #312Dominique on April 9, 2015 at 10:54 am

    Azure – For you, and thank you Femininewoman for the quote, 🙂 .



  313.  #313Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 11:22 am

    Ahhhh… I do LOVE this article…
    THANK YOU FOR showing it here for me…

    “It takes time to REALLY know someone,
    to have your energies and rhythms sync up,
    to get a good flow going between you.
    And what will keep you going when these kinds of situations arise
    will be the slow yet steady progression,
    the shifts and changes for the better
    even if only tiny ones.
    And the more you can focus on this –
    rather than the things which don’t feel smooth yet,
    the more will you notice good stuff happening
    and the more good stuff WILL happen.”

    Ahhh a gentle reminder of HOW MUCH GOOD STUFF IS Happening between us…
    HUGE, HUGE that he came over – exactly on time- right after a long day of golfing!!
    to meet my family!!

    thank you my darling, wise Siren…
    You are so sweet to take the time to send me this..
    I feel cared for and supported!!!

  314.  #314Waterfall on April 9, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    Sirens, hello…

    I sat with my feelings and realised I was holding myself back. Realising that I felt scared to move forward, scared I would fall…

    So I tentatively took a few steps and really I could see the path infront of me more clearly. Or so it feels…

    I still feel nervous…

    I realise some of it is me… but also, I know I repeat old patterns as soon as I get complacent.

    But today I feel a little bit proud… I am taking baby steps…

    I will report back

  315.  #315Waterfall on April 9, 2015 at 2:59 pm

    Sirens, I have a question for you. How do you deal with jealousy? Does it ever get easier?

    When do you know if you NV’s are real or imagined?

    When I was with D I used to get very jealous of other girls, even men, that he spoke to. I dunno why – it was just something in the way he spoke to them – I can’t explain it – but I “felt” excluded – and what I really want to know is if my feelings are valid or not?

    What I mean, is was I being silly? Was I over-reacting? I feel so confused on this one…

    There was a girl that we met on one of our trips together. It turned out he’d known her from before, but I didn’t even know they knew each other. Not that that alone bothered me.

    But there seemed to be a spark between them. On this one particular occasion (believe me I made sure I wasn’t round her and him together again), I felt like they were *flirting* with each other, and I dunno, I felt extremely uncomfortable. I felt invisible to him at that point and he seemed so oblivious to my discomfort.

    I really felt like running away and never speaking to him again. But I wondered – was this an over-reaction? Why was I feeling so triggered?

    To this day I don’t know what went on – in the sense that I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. But yet I felt so angry with him.

    He could see that I was angry but I never told him why, just that he wasn’t giving me enough attention.

    I really didn’t know how to handle it?

    I would say I was a very perceptive and intuitive woman. I could *feel* something was deeply wrong. ALL my friends seemed to sense how wrong this was too… I dunno, it just didn’t make sense.

    At that point I was almost feeling like I was a pawn being used in a game. It didn’t make sense to me…

    I’m not sure if this makes sense, and sorry for rambling on… it doesn’t make much sense to me either and I would love to work it out – or better still understand it..

  316.  #316Waterfall on April 9, 2015 at 3:16 pm

    ..Also, I felt like these friends (the girl included) all belonged to a clique which I was *not* part of. This made me feel very sad, and slightly awkward. It felt like he preferred to be with these other people instead of me..

    I felt like I was expected to be the dutiful girlfriend waiting on the sidelines whilst the boyfriend went off and had his fun!! It made me feel extremely uncomfortable!? I dunno… I’ve never experienced those feelings before.

    I was with another female friend at the time who didn’t *fit* into the group either. It was like we were both outsiders. We both felt the vibe of not being good enough and really both of us just wanted to be away from this weird group dynamic…

    It was scary because along the way I started to feel like a second class citizen and *not good enough*. Like a wife who was expected to walk behind her husband and not outshine him so to speak. I felt like I was being kept in my place. But at the same time, I’m not sure if it was my imagination?

    When we were together I felt like I always needed to be doing things to impress him. I dunno, I just felt like I was under the microscope all the time. He would always ask me if I’d left the house, where I had been, if I’d been to the gym, or cycled, etc, etc.. It all felt too much…

    Ahh, sorry for grumblings, and I’m not sure how much sense they make! Maybe because my feelings don’t make sense at the mo!

  317.  #317Waterfall on April 9, 2015 at 3:23 pm


    Can I just ask – re jealousy – how do you handle it?

    Do you walk away? Confront it? Get angry? Pretend it’s not bothering you…?

    What if you think it’s all in your head – but you still can’t get rid of these NV’s?

    What if he’s done nothing wrong – yet you feel these intense feelings of jealousy that he is completely unaware of?

    What are your thoughts…

  318.  #318Waterfall on April 9, 2015 at 3:24 pm

    …Sorry if this is triggering – please ignore if you so prefer I don’t want to be a downer on the blog…

  319.  #319Waterfall on April 9, 2015 at 3:38 pm

    Sorry, one last thing!
    D was a good guy. I don’t *believe* he was trying to hurt me at all. In fact the opposite – that’s why I feel so confused.

    I know he would not have wanted to hurt me..

  320.  #320Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 3:48 pm

    Well I still haven’t been able to find us a new place. My income is limited, this housing market is off the charts and no one wants to live with children.

    Avocado now seems hesitant to have me at the apartment “because it’s not a long term solution” (because of his roommate/her constantly present boyfriend, and her kid whom she yells at all the time).

    The reason for all this however in my opinion, is that he is seeing someone else, calling her his girlfriend online, but clearly he still is attracted to me, since he’s been spending time/having sex with me, and as of yet I haven’t discussed with him being sexually exclusive as the past few weeks he’s been distant. He promised in Feb to our child that us three would go camping soon, also, but that hasn’t happened yet either.

    I feel so unwanted after this weekend being easter and his birthday, which he spent with this other woman, Ignoring even my “happy birthday” text, until the next day, saying he was “just busy” all weekend.

    I love him and want us to get our family straight, but he is still talking to this woman and giving me excuses.

    I don’t even WANT to have to stay at the apartment with him at this point (although I also find myself somewhat hoping that staying together really knocks the other woman out and things get better with our family.)

    I have been doing all I can to find another place to stay, but it isn’t happening, so maybe this is divinely orchestrated.

    Feeling really angry at this though, as I don’t want to feel unwanted, second choice, nor do I want to be around when OUR family, myself and our child, are not the BIGGEST and ONLY concern he has!!

    I don’t know how to express any of this to him without shutting him down entirely.

    At this point my plan is that if I have to go stay with him I simply am leaning way back, there will be no dinner when he gets home, or saving him dinner, or inviting him anywhere, or sex, if he wants anything at all he will have to initiate it.

    I feel very angry about all this.


  321.  #321Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 4:25 pm

    I am going to search Rori’s blog for articles about rubberbanding. I really don’t know what to do. I want the fruit to finally fall on this side of the fence and hate this rubberbanding, this is so frustrating.

    Also, Sirens, If you were in my shoes, how would you handle having to stay with him (after he offered, but now is acting hesitant), possibly for quite a while, sleeping in the same bed, while he is rubberbanding and still giving another woman his attention (not sure whether he thinks I know about this or not).

    As mentioned in my previous post, my plan currently is to simply be as inviting as I can, yet not initiate anything (no meals waiting at home, no offers to make dinner, no initiating sex??? (until he does it and we become clear on being sexually exclusive? – yet I’m nervous since I’m betting this girl he’s been talking to has no idea he’s been having sex with me?) – no initiating ANYthing. No meeting him at home when he’s off work if I’d rather be doing something else, no waiting around for him for anything at all.

    Staying there is probably going to happen, so I need Sirens to walk me through how to behave while he is rubberbanding like this and acting hesitant about me being there, even though we really should be his first priority!!! I hope that through this he will feel inspired to step up in our family and with me.
    Tho the market is not making it easy, I am doing all I can otherwise, to find another place to be.

  322.  #322Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 4:37 pm

    Waterfall, I’m going to leave this to the other Sirens to answer, but if you’re not comfortable where you are, possibly just floating around the room having as much fun as possible, enjoying yourself, smiling and letting other men come talk to you.

    I’m not sure what to say to him, as he may not understand… but..

    What would have made you feel more included or important?

    What do the other sirens think?

  323.  #323Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 4:39 pm

    Also, FYI I have dealt with this quite a lot in the past, and it does feel awful. It seemed to get better for me when I quit caring. Of course I still cared, but for the moment, – and go have fun. He shouldn’t expect that you’ll sit around for this and even if he doesnt understand, at some point, if he cares, he’ll figure it out.

  324.  #324Zia on April 9, 2015 at 5:18 pm

    lovergirl – re your red hot anger – YES YES YES! love it. love seeing you feel it. let it out and feel it 🙂 And regarding what you say about S – I get that’s how he WAS. And how you felt. But right now, he IS dating other women, and that’s what I’m talking about. He’s getting you to get him toilet paper while wining and dining another woman? BIG FAT NOPE!

    I remember when I was due to have my baby, and I had previously said that the dad (who had gone back to his ex girlfriend at the time) could be there in the delivery room… and as the time came, I just thought to myself “no…. i can’t have him with me, experiencing this birth, and then going home to love someone else while I am at home by myself. no.” And I told him that. He was obviously upset, but he did understand. I had my best friend be my birth support person and she was great. So I can relate to your feelings on some level – it feels bad to know that the person you want is giving the love and attention you want to someone else.

  325.  #325Zia on April 9, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    More and more I am noticing how different I respond to things now…. and how my responses are coming from a place of security. Responding, not reacting.

    The other evening, I was feeling a bit put out with my boyfriend due to some things said. In a previous relationship, I would have freaked out, turned the light on, and demanded that the issue get resolved RIGHT NOW NO ONE GOES TO SLEEP TILL ITS RESOLVED. Instead I got in touch with my feelings… and I couldn’t quite work out how I felt. I felt disappointed and sad, but wasn’t sure if that was me or his actions. So, I just rolled over and went to sleep. And I slept well! I get now how it is for guys when they can just sleep even though an argument is not resolved, lol. In the morning I still felt a bit off… but my bf went to work, and I figured if I was still bothered I’d address it then. I had a busy day with my son, and we were in the area where our workplace is so we popped in to see him and say hi.

    And he was so happy to see us. My boy was so happy to see him. I felt happy and smily, and all those feelings were gone. And they stayed gone. Those feelings resolved on their own without needing to discuss or talk or have it out with him. And that felt great! I know that if something bothers me, I can talk to him about it, but I don’t need to react to every little thing that bothers me, or when I’m feeling off, or when I’m feeling that HE is off.

  326.  #326Zia on April 9, 2015 at 5:35 pm

    Silver – I would be interested to see what the other Sirens have to say, but I absolutely would not be staying in his apartment. Is there a family member you can stay with temporarily? He is giving you all sorts of signs to show that it is not something he is keen on, and I don’t think that forcing the situation will inspire him *at all*

    A man is never inspired by being backed into a corner!

  327.  #327Femininewoman on April 9, 2015 at 6:57 pm

    What I would say about STS situation is that my impression is she has made up a story about being in relationship with this man in her head. The pressure might be triggering his fear of losing his freedom so he is backing away.

  328.  #328Dominique on April 9, 2015 at 7:00 pm

    Waterfall – These two may help with the jealousy piece. Please let me know if you have more questions. <3



  329.  #329Dominique on April 9, 2015 at 7:00 pm

  330.  #330Azure Blu on April 9, 2015 at 7:02 pm

    Zia #324
    my darling Siren… so inspiring to hear how you handled a potentially drama filled episode
    and instead searched in *YOUR* heart and feelings…
    stepped back and fell asleep as you said
    “tomorrow, i can take a better look, tomorrow”

    and then realized some things we can simply let go of
    and proceeded to have a wonderful day with those who are so important!!!

    so helpful for me to see how this all works in a more long term relationship…
    thank you

  331.  #331RileyTheOwl on April 9, 2015 at 7:04 pm

    Waterfall, oh my goodness, I have all the same questions as you. I am waiting to see what everyone has to say about all of those questions, because those are the exact same things that I felt with C.

    Reading your posts I was reminded of a time when C and I were walking down the hallway and I was speaking to him about something important/passionate to me, and he passed by a friend who called him over and they started chatting guy stuff. I don’t like this guy, or the feeling of guy stuff right at the moment, so I just looked at him and kept on walking. I don’t know if that was the right thing to do, but it felt empowering to me, like I was just going towards where I felt like being and not sticking around to put myself through something I’m uncomfortable with (the light chatty guy convsedation while I was feeling deepmy emotional). I reminded myself that I don’t want to be mad at C, and I was going to go sit and rest on a bench but he quickly caught up to me. He smiled and said “where are you going without me?” And I said “I just didn’t really feel like waiting”. In a perfect world I probably could have said a more authentic feeling message, but I’m not perfect and still learning, and that was how I felt then.

    I get what you’re saying about feeling like not belonging to the clique, and feeling like you’ve gotta be the one in his shadow, letting him shine. I have experienced that too, when I’m in public with C, because he has so many friends. But I don’t want to feel that anymore, I want to float off and not listen to his conversatioms with friends, and immerse myself in something more engaging like anything nature-y around, whether it’s plants, a flower, grass next to the sidewalk, or just to keep walking a ways. Find a nearby place to sit to listen to music, read a book in my bag, sketch, something. I want to shine too though, and I’m not really sure how to in these situations. Maybe if I like the person he’s talking to I can engage, but often I don’t like the guys he talks to, so I just walk away.

    I’m really curious what other sirens have to say, because I’m not sure what to do in these situations 🙂

  332.  #332RileyTheOwl on April 9, 2015 at 7:08 pm

    Yes!!! 🙂 I made it, and it was incredibly empowering.

  333.  #333Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 9:02 pm

    Zia, no I do not have any family or anything like that.
    I am staying with a friend but her house is full so I can’t stay here long.

    He brought up the idea in the first place.

    FW… willing to consider that, but not sure where I made up anything about being in a relationship with him. What made you say that?

  334.  #334Indigo on April 9, 2015 at 9:14 pm


    Your feelings are very normal, and all feelings are valid. So don’t wonder whether you’re silly to have them or allowed to have them, because they’re coming from somewhere and that part of you is calling for attention.

    There are many ways to deal with jealousy. You could try to outgirl the other woman, be more feminine, more Siren-like. I would say this is a good place to go to first. For me though, I do like to say something to the man. For me, it’s powerfully triggering and hurtful enough that I simply do not want to be around or with a man who makes me feel that way. A feeling message or something simple and clear and then leaving it at that, or leaving the room if he gets defensive often works quite well.

    I will write more later!

  335.  #335Zia on April 9, 2015 at 9:52 pm

    Silver – I know he said that initially, but from what I am reading, all signs are pointing to him not being keen on the idea. He may have been saying it to be polite. If he wanted you there, he’d have said so when crunch time came. I agree with FW – and this seems to be in “imaginary relationship” territory, which Rori has a lot of articles about. Hope they help!

    I can’t see how any good can come of him feeling like he’s backed into a corner. People in that position will look for ANY escape. He has to be able to come to the decisions in his own time, IF a relationship with you is what he wants. I understand that the housing market is tricky, but if you do live with him temporarily I hope you are prepared for the fact that it may simply be because he’s doing you a favour as the mother of his child, and it may well ONLY be temporary. Are you prepared for that possibility? Because if not, don’t do it.

  336.  #336Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 10:40 pm

    I know that would be shutting down, making things worse, and keep him from moving closer to me, which he WAS doing, but honestly, I just feel like not even TALKING to him anymore. I feel like Ignoring him and feeling angry.

    He will probably come back tomorrow and say (he said “let me think about it tonight”) that I can stay there for a little while..

    I don’t really know what to say. That I just feel like he really doesn’t want me there, so I’m going to stay elsewhere? I don’t have any place to stay. My friend says I can stay with her a little longer, not to worry, but I have no idea how long finding a place is going to take. I want to be there with him, but really don’t feel like he wants me there now because of this other woman.

    And I feel like I need to do something differently, because why else isn’t he as close as he was a few weeks ago?, why is he withdrawing? I don’t even know HOW to lean back in a way that will draw him in, since I barely do anything as it is! …..I guess all I can do is not hold any of this against him, and just be responsive when he does contact me.

    But I don’t like feeling this way, responding, getting involved, (and him moving closer and closer, KNOWING that I wanted to live together, be together, before my moving even came up) – and then pushed away for someone else.

    feeling really discouraged, I’ve made progress with him this year and a year ago about this time, only to have this happen.

  337.  #337Zia on April 9, 2015 at 10:47 pm

    Silver – I can’t remember if you said you have read Rori’s book – but her number one rule is DO NOTHING. Do not try and work out how to win him back. Do not try and get into his mind and what he is thinking. Leaning in towards him to try and “fix” the situation will only make him retreat further. DO. NOTHING. If you lean back and he does nothing…. there is your answer. He will make it pretty clear how he feels by his actions. Unfortunately you can’t make him want to be with you if he doesn’t want to.

    I remember so many times asking “what do i do? what can I do? THERE MUST BE SOMETHING!!” but it really was as simple as that. When I dropped the ball with my ex, and finally DID NOTHING.. like decided I would not instigate every again (after spending 8 months reaching out whenever I hadnt heard from him again, and constantly trying to make things happen and get us back together) I never heard from him again. But I met my current bf a month later and have been with him for over a year and couldn’t imagine being with anyone else 🙂

  338.  #338Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 10:51 pm

    Maybe I can tell him that I’ve been feeling so happy with our closeness lately.. but recently I’ve been feeling so much distance from him, and I feel sad about it. I do want to be together and I do want to both have our child all of the time, and I do want to have sex exclusively, yet I don’t mean to pressure him in any way, that it’s ok to not know what he wants.. ?!

    I feel that maybe he’s feeling this way after my wanting things to be us, together, if we got a place together, or maybe after I shared that no, I don’t want to just buy a house together, (because he asked if that was all i wanted – just to buy a house?), and I replied that of course I want to be with a partner who wants to be one all the time, get married, be a family, togetherness, partnership.

    I don’t know. I feel like FW is right that he’s feeling pressured or afraid of losing his freedom, somehow.. (but mainly that he just doesn’t want to give up this other woman he’s seeing also.)

    I have followed his direction, shared what would feel good to me, responded to his initiating, and then I get hit with withdrawing.

    I have no idea what to do with this.

  339.  #339Silver-Tongued Siren on April 9, 2015 at 10:57 pm

    fyi Zia, I just posted that about sharing a feeling message, before reading your post, it was not in response to your reply.

    Yes, I get that I have to do nothing. Yet even doing “nothing” is doing something. Yet I really have been doing nothing, for the longest time, other than being inviting. And I get good results, but then when I share myself, then this.

    So I guess I will go back to doing absolutely nothing.

    I still wonder if I should share this feeling message above with him though, since I feel that my sharing what I wanted may have made him feel pressured or scared – that I wanted us to be “together/us” if we got a place together, yet I don’t intend to be a girlfriend, just sexually exclusive. But he probably heard “girlfriend” and commitment.

    I need to go to sleep, I can’t think clearly right now.

    Thanks for listening and replying, Zia & FW.

  340.  #340Zia on April 9, 2015 at 11:26 pm

    Silver – sending hugs to you. I feel your pain, I have been there. I think you should acknowledge your feelings and try and work through them yourself, leave him out of it. He knows how you feel. You don’t need to tell him again, and you certainly don’t need to explain your position further. HUGS!!!

  341.  #341Zia on April 9, 2015 at 11:30 pm

    Silver – the other thing, is that with feeling messages.. it’s about sharing your feeling, with no expectation of outcome. If you are sharing these feelings in the hope that he will suddenly decide he wants to be with you, and will agree with your terms, it might be best not to. If you are able to share them with being ok with whatever his response is (even if his response is to say nothing and do nothing), then it might be ok, but my suspicion is that won’t be ok for you.

  342.  #342Femininewoman on April 10, 2015 at 7:58 am

    From Bob Grant:

    “I know this sounds simple…but it works. When you communicate with a man you’re not trying to get him to logically understand you..unless it’s a math problem. What you want is for him to “FEEL” what you’re saying.

    When you want to emphasis a point – speak slowly, softly and look directly into his eyes. I promise, whatever you say, he’ll feel it.”

  343.  #343Labbit on April 10, 2015 at 9:21 am

    Silver Tongued Siren,

    I remember you mentioning a couple of weeks ago that Avocado had talked about buying a place for you all to live together. So even though he’s backed off from that at this moment, it sounds like he cares about you very much. I agree with Femininewoman that he might be feeling pressure or afraid to lose his freedom, especially as your conversation with A drifted into more serious topics like marriage, etc.

    A man commits when he feels like you ADD to his life. When he feels better with you in his life than without; when the thought of losing you stirs up fear in him; when he gets affection, sex, and unconditional support that he (obviously) can’t get from his friends.

    Regardless of the other woman in the picture, your job is to create positive moments and experiences when you and Avocado are together. And you need to do this WITHOUT leaning forward, without trying to manipulate things. When he comes towards you — and he will — you make sure you’re at your open, most vulnerable, most feminine best. I had this so WRONG for many years…when I felt hurt I would close down my emotions, and then when my man would try and come towards me I’d snap at him or get angry. But a big part of our feminine mystique, the power that we have as women, is in learning how to be open and vulnerable even when we feel hurt. In those moments of hurt, allowing a man to still reach in and touch our hearts is unspeakably powerful and bonds him to us in a way no other woman could ever touch…IF he wants us. If he doesn’t want us, no amount of openness or vulnerability could ever forge a spark on a burnt-out match.

    I cringe a bit at the idea of you living him with him right now…he’s pulling away, trying to create space between you in that energy bubble you share. Living with him complicates your ability to lean back…and wouldn’t it feel awful if you were ‘home’ at night and he wasn’t? That would drive me absolutely NUTS…I’d be worried about where he was and who he was with, hardly able to be my best feminine self. And not taking care of him, or cooking him dinner, or doing things you might want to if you’re in a relationship, that only dulls the spark further.

    If you continue to live separately you can work on creating sparks when you’re together, so that he sees you as that safe haven, the place he always wants to come home to. I feel scared you’d make that much harder by entering into a shared living situation he’s not totally on board with (and I don’t feel you are either).

  344.  #344Indigo on April 10, 2015 at 10:13 am

    Silver Tongued Siren,

    I am feeling concerned that you are hoping that living together will fix everything, that it will “knock the other woman out”, in your words. In my humble opinion, this is leaning forward.

    I would just like to reinforce what Labbit is saying. I have made the mistake of living with a man before the relationship was ready for it, and it made things much worse.

    I can only speak for myself but I would never want to live with a man who was seeing someone else in the hopes that he would stop. For me, the potential for hurt in that situation is just too great. I have to ask how it feels for you to be having sex with him when he is seeing someone else? These would be the things I would start with if it were me. This is true leaning back. Doing nothing, not being in contact with him for a week or so, to get clear on how you feel about all these things. I would not worry about crafting any elaborate feeling messages. I doubt they would be effective at this stage. I would worry more about my actions, and creating safety for myself, and THEN about my relationship with him. Creating good moments, as Labbit said, not trying to control him or the outcome, seeing what he does. I know you want your family back together, and I really feel for you.

    You asked how we Sirens would handle living and sleeping with a man knowing he was giving a lot of attention to another woman. I would not handle it. I would make a boundary out of it. I feel it’s really the only way to look out for yourself.

  345.  #345Kath on April 10, 2015 at 11:27 am


    I so understand where you’re coming from. My first proper date with my now X he took me to a pub and when we stood at the bar, I looked at the five women around us and realised that they were all women he’d had an intimate relationship with at some point!- I knew them all as well but I still felt uncomfortable being there, like I was being approved in some way and it didn’t feel good. So, I touched his arm and he bent his ear down to me and I whispered “I hope you realize that I am not going to be one of your harem!”- He laughed but I meant it. And as the relationship progressed it did become a huge issue for me that he seemed to have no boundaries at all. If any of them said they needed him to help them, he’d be there like a shot- even when they had boyfriends of their own who were more than capable of doing what they wanted R to do!- It really infuriated me!- and even though recently he wanted to get back with me when I said my what my boundaries were- it was him that couldn’t handle them!- He was the one who said “My problem is that I want my cake and eat it”- It was what I have always known-can’t pretend that I’m not sad by it though, I love him and think we could be very happy, if only…………………………..

  346.  #346Lovergirl on April 10, 2015 at 11:38 am

    Zia (323)-

    Yes, to be fair S has wined and dined me a lot, at least once a week for the past year, often more than that, and this woman is paying for herself (hee hee). But I get your point ;). It doesn’t feel good for him to be looking for something serious with someone else.

    Boy, I am having one issue after another threatening my trip to Chicago. My teenager wrecked my vehicle and it is in the shop. So I am having to get a rental part of the time and this guy is paying for it, as well as having his brother drive me to the airport. I feel like a drain on the poor guy but he’s got a good attitude about it all. Wish me luck!

    As far as S, I just feel so sick whenever I think about him. I miss him and I feel awful that we are parting ways. I have no idea what’s in his head right now and I am trying to get my mind off of it.

  347.  #347Lovergirl on April 10, 2015 at 11:42 am

    Silver Tongue Siren-

    I only have a moment, but I would be REALLY leery of living with him. It may very well make him feel resentful of you and that is the LAST thing you want. It’s very unlikely to make things better. I think your only chance at making things better is to live away from him.

  348.  #348April Rose on April 10, 2015 at 1:22 pm


    I’m loving reading your words on being open and curious with a man who is coming towards us.

    This spoke to me
    “Think about this one. All is well until it isn’t, and then and only then do you need to deal.”

    I have a question for you. There is a lovely man coming towards me, and I have a dilemma. On our first date I realised he is a smoker. On my POF profile I am sure I had said I didn’t want to consider dating smokers.
    Now it is nearly two months and I haven’t said anything. I quite like him. He has said he loves me and would do anything for me.
    Do you have any suggestions on how to proceed?
    I have considered saying “I don’t want to fall in love with a smoker. Being around smokers makes me feel sad.”

  349.  #349Beloved on April 10, 2015 at 5:09 pm

    Silver Tongued Siren – if you can use your feeling messages to enlist him in assisting you with the solution to your living situation, rather than seeing him as the solution, you might be able to engage and connect with him.
    “I feel scared and at a loss about our living situation. I feel I have nowhere to go and nowhere to turn. I don’t want to put any pressure on you or our relationship, and, I feel really scared and uncertain. I don’t know what to do here, what do you think?”

  350.  #350Dominique on April 10, 2015 at 5:43 pm

    April Rose – If this is a deal breaker which it seems to be, then you need to be honest with him though I would encourage you to approach it from how smoking makes you feel. eg. – I really enjoy our time together. OR I feel happy being with you. Yet being around cigarettes and smoking feels uncomfortable. Is there anything we can do here? – Something like this.


  351.  #351Silver-Tongued Siren on April 10, 2015 at 7:43 pm

    I haven’t caught up on comments tonight.. just about to go to bed..

    I really would like to be normal and flirty with Avocado right now – as if there is no pressure, it’s fine to not know what he wants.

    But I am mad! I feel LET DOWN! He offered for me to stay at the apartment, and has confirmed that I could, multiple times, but NOW he has to “think about it” last night?

    This morning when he dropped off our child he was late to work, and I haven’t heard a word from him since.

    And back to the ignoring me if I text.

    What do I do with this hot and cold behavior!?

    And what do I do when I’ve been COUNTING on him to come through if I couldn’t find anything? The reason I can’t find anything is because no one wants to live with children!

    So I’d LOVE to go back to being light, easy, and flirty, but I’m feeling let down here….

  352.  #352Indigo on April 10, 2015 at 11:57 pm

    Silver Tongued Siren,

    Sorry, but I don’t really see this as hot and cold behaviour.

    What was his energy when he “offered” for you to come and stay with him, and “confirmed multiple times”? Often, we hear the words but in the back of our mind we register the reluctance of the person saying them. We choose to believe the words, but personally I choose to believe the energy. Sometimes people are just trying to be a “good person” or polite. I believe his answer about how he really feels is in his energy.

    Personally, if it were me, if I HAD to say something to him, I’d be totally authentic, even if it feels a little unfair, but just for the sake of being truthful, I might say something like “I feel really confused, and if I’m honest, a little let down. Did I misunderstand when you said I could come and stay with you? Were you just offering to be polite? I would love it if you could feel safe enough to be honest with me. Because I seem to have got the impression that I could stay with you and now I’m not sure what to do.”

    I think men can appreciate total, clean honesty. Well for me I like to get all my relationships on this footing rather than dancing around an issue.

    Hugs to you

  353.  #353Kira on May 9, 2015 at 12:35 am

    I know what the person feels in such situation. I passed through break-up out of nowhere as well. Everything was perfect in our relationships, as I thought… But one morning we wake up, he packed his belongings and left…without a word… The only question sticked in my throat: Why??? I felt utterly discouraged. But life was going on and I tried to find my MAN. Being a definite opponent of dating websites, I couldn`t even imagine I would try it one day. Nevertheless, I created profile on https://kovla.com/datings/us/glen-park/ and miracle! My dream man texted me and asked me out. This year we will celebrate our 4 wedding anniversary;)

  354.  #354elise on May 14, 2015 at 3:46 pm

    Just experienced this. At 60, I thought I finally met THE ONE. Turns out (after a year of dating/living together 4mos) that he is a sociopath. Really. I looked it up. My friends said they thought so, but i didnt see it. Until I disagreed with some money transaction. As I thought we hit a bump in the road, I though Everything was perfect in our relationships, But one morning I wake up, he packed his belongings and left…Said he added NO VALUE to my life.
    Yes, hes a sociopath. And I fell for it. Doesn’t matter what age one is. Look it up, remember the symptoms and keep that in mind.
    Then I sent him the explanation of a sociopath by email. I called him on it. Days later, he sends me a cut/paste from the web on why there should be NO contact with a sociopath. I am doing good. NO contact was my game plan. Now I have to get back into the game. Ladies, there are a lot of men that fit the bill.

  355.  #355Maria on May 26, 2015 at 7:39 am

    I have been with my fella 14 years was due to be married on 1st August 2015 cpl of weeks ago after paying for the bands he drops bombshell saying he don’t love me anymore and wants me out of the house which is his I’m berwillded lost confused alone and no where to go and no money I was so happy them in a few words my life upside down everyone keeps telling me he not worth it and just go etc but I still love him deeply I never knew anything was wrong said he’d been feeling like this for few years so this is why I Carnot get my head round why he agreed to the marriage let me pay for everything took me for stuff helped and now this all I want to do is sob but ppl just expecting me to get over it and move on

  356.  #356Maria on May 26, 2015 at 7:43 am

    355: MariaNo Gravatar says:

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    I have been with my fella 14 years was due to be married on 1st August 2015 cpl of weeks ago after paying for the bands he drops bombshell saying he don’t love me anymore and wants me out of the house which is his I’m berwillded lost confused alone and no where to go and no money I was so happy them in a few words my life upside down everyone keeps telling me he not worth it and just go etc but I still love him deeply I never knew anything was wrong said he’d been feeling like this for few years so this is why I Carnot get my head round why he agreed to the marriage let me pay for everything took me for stuff helped and now this all I want to do is sob but ppl just expecting me to get over it and move on

    Tuesday, 26 May 2015 @ 7:39am

  357.  #357Cheryl on May 30, 2015 at 4:35 pm

    I too am experiencing the same situation. After 10 years ,4of them engaged,he secretly dropped the bomb on my after me thinking everything was ok, he was seeing someone. My sister and my nephew are staying with us, even though it was longer then he wanted,I understand he wanted his privacy. My sister has been ill the last year and i was trying to help her and I always payed attention to him and us, but he claimed she was first. I loved him since I met him and find it hard to let go. The family thing was going to solved when he gave me the news. We have to move soon with not much money. I am very
    christian and take care of elderly on my job. This is my nature. I did not eat, sleep, cried all day and night, lost weight, depressed because I cared too much. I am so heart broken and having a hard time with this.

  358.  #358Rori Raye on May 31, 2015 at 2:45 pm

    Cheryl – My heart and love go to you – and you sound like such an amazing person…Love, Rori

  359.  #359maria on June 8, 2015 at 9:12 am

    I feel you have a great program out there for us women who have not been in the dating world for a long time. However, I feel that your program is costly

  360.  #360Rori Raye on June 8, 2015 at 10:50 am

    maria – Hi, and that’s why this blog and all the newsletters are free! The thing is, though – the programs help you put things together. For instance – I see you’ve tried out “Feeling Messages” in your comment – and those aren’t really Feeling Messages at all, but opinions starting out with the word “feel.” Everyone needs some hands-on help to get this going properly. Look around here, and see what you can learn – we’ll all help! Love, Rori