A Schoolgirl Crush, Or The Real Thing?

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maninbottleHere’s a letter from Alice that may sound very extreme to you – and it’s a common, everyday experience that so many women are having.

It may seem like the height of “being taken for a ride.”

And yet, to Alice, it feels like love and potential.

It feels like “he’s afraid of commitment.”

The truth, for me, is more like:

There is no one and nothing to blame – AND – there’s nothing here for you.

“Hi Rori,

I have read the blog, the emails, I am working through some of the programs and learning some things, but I still have trouble figuring out what to do about my current situation. Since I emailed you last, things have gotten a lot worse, and my heart is breaking.

I met this man online at the beginning of March, and the connection was instant. We wanted the same things, we saw relationships the same way, we both have been through heart ache and bad relationships…we thought the same way, had tons of stuff in common, we opened up to each other about stuff, and were on the phone for several hours a day.

We fell in love (and we told each other that) and decided to be together just after talking on the phone. I live halfway across the country from him, so I flew down there after 2 weeks. I stayed with him for a few days, we did tons of stuff together, had a really good time, had amazing sex (we just couldn’t help ourselves), and we bonded really really well.

He told all his friends about me, I met some of them, and I even talked to his mother on the phone. Things stayed really great after I got back, and we were talking about going on vacation together, making all these plans, me going down there again, him coming here, me moving down there eventually, getting a job there (and he even started helping me look for jobs), getting married, we were looking at houses, etc. Then I went there again 3 weeks later, for my birthday, which we celebrated, and he got me flowers, and a card, and all that good stuff.

He had a roommate for a while, so we were a little limited on private time, but we still did things, played sports, went out, and shared special little moments together. We got in a couple of small arguments (because I felt neglected), but worked everything out. However, shortly after we had met, he had gotten laid off from work and started having financial problems (which I started helping him with), plus he had a ton of free time and was bored.

So, after I got back home, he started going out every weekend with his buddies, mostly to clubs (which I don’t really condone…by the way, I am 33, have no kids, he is a 35 and he has 3 kids from previous relationships, he seems to be very family oriented, we are both attractive, mature and responsible, but I don’t think clubbing that often is appropriate and respectable for someone his age and with his goals and aspirations).

Anyway, I didn’t know him well at the time, I was a little insecure, plus I had some left over trust issues from the past, and was dealing with other stresses in my career and life here, and I freaked out. I started feeling all these intense things for him, missing him, I started worrying about the distance and about how we are going to make things work, worrying if he was out with other women, worrying about his work and financial situation, etc…and I lost it on the phone with him a few times.

I yelled, cursed once or twice, was crying, getting upset…which started pushing him away, and while he kept saying that he loved me, and that everything will be all right, and that he will hold on to me no matter what, he put his guard up and kept pulling away from me. I felt that, and got even more upset, tried talking to him, and he kept saying he will “come back” to me, but didn’t.

He was supposed to come up and see me, but he didn’t have the money, and I couldn’t pay for a plane ticket either, because I was helping him with his bills.

We were both stressed out, and we argued almost every day for a couple of weeks. But then I got a hold of myself and started changing. I also realized that I needed to be there for him in person, and we needed to spend time together, and I talked to him about going down there again to see him, and interview for some of the jobs I had found.

But he didn’t want that, and said that we should “get things right on the phone first”. Which made sense. By then I had realized that I had hurt him, and let him down in a way, and my whole attitude and behavior changed. I was calm, nice, patient, stopped accusing him of stuff, didn’t get upset when I couldn’t get a hold of him, etc. I realized that I had acted childish, and that I didn’t want to lose this man I loved. But it was too late.

Our conversations improved, but he wasn’t invested in us like he had been before. There were many times when I couldn’t get a hold of him at night, and he would always call or text me first thing in the morning, apologizing and telling me how much he loved me. I tried talking to him several times, asked him if something was going on, I kept pressing and pressing, and then he finally told me that he had been hanging out a lot with this female friend (someone he had met after me).

He liked her a lot, but they were just friends, he loved me, and wanted to be with me, etc. I asked him about coming to see me, and he said he would think about it…one time he said he was confused, he even suggested that we be friends, and when I asked him if he wanted to date this other woman, he said no. He asked me not to give up on us, and he said he just needed some time (which he had said before), and I told him that I don’t want to be just friends with him, and I won’t sit on the sidelines waiting for him while he is dating her, but that I will be patient while he finds a job and gets his finances in order.

There was a lot of back and forth, and I was at a point where I wanted to walk away from it all, but I stayed because I loved him, I wanted us to work out, and didn’t want to not be there for him while he was going through this rough patch (being unemployed and having no income coming in). Plus, I was helping him financially, I paid some of his bills, helped him look for work, pushed him (in a nice way) to do this or that, even did little stuff for him.

I was there for him all along, motivated him, supported him, listened, encouraged, etc., and I even sacrificed seeing him: instead of paying for plane tickets, I helped him pay for some of his bills. I asked him to stop seeing this other woman several times, nicely, then started giving him ultimatums, even tried to break up with him once, but he got so upset, and I felt so bad, I took it all back and apologized. He kept telling me she was just a friend, but I accessed his email and found love emails, tons of photos of them having fun and kissing, and learned that he loved her, that they were spending several nights a week together, and were making plans for the future (getting married, being together forever…the same exact stuff that we had talked about).

I confronted him, and after several hours of arguing he admitted he wrote those emails, but he said he wrote them when we had drifted apart, and because at the time he got scared about my insecurities and couldn’t see a future with me. He said she kept asking him out, paid attention to him, was there for him, and he “fell in the loop” and developed feelings for her. But he kept saying she is just a “good friend”, he told me how sorry he was, he asked me to forgive him, and he said that he will “fix” our situation.

That was on June 9, but he kept seeing her and lying about it all the time (I can see their pics on Facebook), then he stopped wanting to talk about it, saying he is tired, and he doesn’t want to think about “which woman he wants to be with”. I backed off for a few days, but then started pressing him about what is really going on. He finally found a job, and is working (and I helped him out with one last bill the other day), but he told me she is helping him financially as well.

I tried to believe that they are just friends, but it’s hard to ignore my instincts, and the facts. I get upset every other day, and cry (sometime to him), and he seems to respond to that. He keeps telling me he loves me, he will always love me no matter what, but after me pressing and pressing some more, he finally told me the other day that they are together.

I asked him if we are done, and he said he didn’t want us to be done! He said it with such conviction…he sounded like a little boy who didn’t want to give up his favorite toy! I know he meant it, and that makes me love him even more! He says he has feelings for two women, but she is there in his city, and he knows we can’t see each other as much as we want…he wants to see where things go with us, but…(and then he stops).

He says he likes me, he can see where I have changed (he even saw that back when I started to), I am a good woman, and he sometime wonders why I love him so much (the way he says it makes me think he sometime thinks he doesn’t deserve me). I know he loves me, I know he feels bad for what he did, he knows he screwed up and he even says so (or is he just playing a game???).

He keeps opening up to me about other personal things, and past experiences, and our interactions are getting better. I feel that I am falling in love with him all over again…but he keeps seeing her! We talk throughout the day, then he talks to me at night while he is driving down to see her (she lives about 1 hour away)! Then he turns his phone off, spends the night with her, but calls me first thing in the morning as he is driving back and we talk for several hours before he goes to work!

And of course, he denies that he is seeing her! Is this crazy or what?! What has love come to? Every time I get upset, he tells me not to worry so much, not to think about it so much. He even said that he is tired of me getting upset, he doesn’t want me to get sick, and that every time I do get upset, we are back to square one! Like, we are not making any progress…is he trying to rebuild our relationship, or at least see what could be there??

He also used the phrase “if you don’t think this (our relationship) is going anywhere”, and I know he didn’t mean friendship! I obviously love him, and don’t want to lose him. But maybe again, I already lost him. Maybe he was never mine to begin with. Should it have been so easy for him to replace me, if he loved me so much? I want to be with him, and we still talk about him coming up here to see me…we still flirt, joke, tease each other, have incredible chemistry over the phone, and I know we would have incredible chemistry in person, probably even better than before.

We know each other so much better now, and if we still love each other after all this craziness, doesn’t that mean we have something really special? I am so confused! I want a real committed relationship, I want someone who is into me 100% and makes me happy, but I keep hoping he is that man! I try not to call or text him anymore, and sometime I try not to talk to him when he does call, but it’s hard, and I miss him, and I give in.

But then we talk, and we have this incredible thing going on, when I get off the phone I am so happy, but also incredibly sad, and it hurts sooo bad! Am I stupid or what? Should I keep him in my life, and keep “dating” him, and also date other men (and should I let him know or not), or should I just get out of it all together?

Also, he seems to be a feminine energy man. Is there such a thing? Or, does he just have a higher percentage of feminine energy than most men? He seems to be doing all the feeling, and he is so sensitive, and communicative…and he seems to respond to my feeling messages, but also to my expressing my anger and hurt towards him…is that normal? What does that mean? He also seems to love being chased by women, he loves receiving attention, and he responds to women loving and pursuing him.

This other woman chased him, and got him! Or, is that just his way of covering up his real fear of commitment? Does he just go along with whoever is pursuing him, as to not make a decision for himself? So far, he has had a very hard time telling me the truth, let alone make a decision about our situation. Sometime it feels like he is pushing my buttons, so I break up with him, thus me being the “bad guy.”

But even when I tried to break up with him, he acted totally devastated!? I don’t want to chase him, I don’t think I should have to…but should I chase him so I can get him back? Should I even want him back? Does he seem emotionally unavailable to you guys? I have a life, lots of friends, a career, hobbies and interests, and I am focusing on all of that, but I want to share my life with him!

I believe in what we have, I believe in him, even after all this crap. I see his potential, I know he would make a good husband, and don’t want to give up on him…I don’t want to give up on us. I want to do what’s best for our chances of a future together. I would appreciate any help you could give me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.


My Answer:

Alice, you’re not going to like this…

1. This relationship doesn’t exist. It’s completely, totally Imaginary.

2. His relationship with this other woman is convenient and pleasant, and your money is convenient and pleasant. When you talk with him long distance, come to visit him, give him your warmth, love and sex – that’s very convenient and pleasant.

3. The energy you’ve got tied up in this man is robbing you of the life you could be having, the fun you could be having, the man you could be having, the love you could be having.

4. The only question to ask is: Why are you focusing on a man who isn’t already with you?

And there is no good answer.

We just do that.

We just hang onto the low-hanging fruit, even when it doesn’t fall off the tree and land in our laps. We try harder to pull it off.

It’s our version of “the easy way.”

Yes, it all sounds so painful and complex and difficult and trying and full of potential and reasons and excuses – and so you think we’d never, ever “opt” for all that misery.

And yet, to most of us – that’s the norm.

That’s what we consider “being in love” and just “working it out.”

We allow ourselves to consider a few good times and days together, and a lot of phone conversations to be “a relationship.”

We make it all “mean” something.

And it doesn’t.

It doesn’t mean anything.

It just “is” an experience.

The thing to look at is –

What part of this am I choosing to make meaning out of?

What part of this am I lending my energy to?

What part of this am I entertaining? What part of this am I “feeding”?

Alice – you can do SO much. Read everything you can here, Circular Date, and perhaps get private coaching to help you Fall In Love with YOU and forget about HIM!!

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1Femininewoman on January 20, 2015 at 6:27 am

    Oh to be able to recognize the imaginary

  2.  #2Lovergirl on January 20, 2015 at 8:56 am

    Ouch. This post is totally triggering. I feel angry with this man for taking advantage of “Alice” and manipulating her. I agree with Rori’s advice. I’ve seen it sooo often with gold digging men who use women to take care of them and act “feminine” and caring to get what they want. They know how to play on a woman’s emotions and self esteem. These men take on the feminine role because it’s easy and they don’t want to man up and do what a man should be doing- taking care of the woman. I feel resentful towards this type of guy.

    Once, a very long time ago, while I was still a teenager and not married yet, I dated an older guy who tried to use me in a similar fashion. I never paid his bills but he was always playing on my sympathy, trying to get me to pay for things and buy him stuff. I was so in love with him and ultimately he hurt me in a very cruel manner that I won’t even get into on this blog. He also got another woman pregnant while we were together. Run, Alice, run! This doesn’t feel good for a reason!!

  3.  #3IamHis on January 20, 2015 at 9:46 am

    Another painful read. Rori is very patient. All of my relationships are imaginary. Wasn’t it said on here some where or by another relationship expert that all relationships are imaginary until they are your definition of happily ever after?

    I feel so icky reading about her paying his bills. I hope I never stoop that low; paying a man’s bills to try to win his love.

    I feel like imaginary relationships are all the “intimacy” I can handle right now. & oddly enough, I feel okay with that.

    As long as my relationships with G0d & myself are real, then I’ll be okay…

  4.  #4Mandy on January 20, 2015 at 10:00 am

    Thank you Indifo for the recommended link.

    Oh boy am I PMSing today. WHEW. Hot flashes and everything.

    Read the article- Paying for a guy never works. Ugghhhhh. So yucky. Yuck yuck yuck. And yet I feel guilty when a guy pays for me.

    I feel guilty sometimes when all that nice stuff comes towards me and I don’t want to thwart it.

  5.  #5Mandy on January 20, 2015 at 10:03 am

    Indigo…Jeez I hate typos 😛

  6.  #6Gemini Goddess on January 20, 2015 at 10:12 am

    Having a root canal in an hour, just made the appointment.

    D asked if I needed any help from him. For some reason I said “I don’t know, yet”. At least I said that instead of “No, I’m fine”. What I WANT him to do is pick me up afterwards(!), which I guess would mean driving me there too, which he can do because he’s working from home today.

    Why am I having such trouble asking for that? I guess I WANTED him to just offer. Am I, in this minute NOT honoring myself by not asking for what I REALLY want? Feeling like such a “pest” for asking, and really bummed with myself for feeling that way. What happened to my shameless diva-self?

  7.  #7Gemini Goddess on January 20, 2015 at 10:21 am

    I’m pretending to be a shameless diva, because I want a guy who would do that for me. Just sent a text “Would you be able to pick me up afterwards? 1:00ish.” If nothing else I feel better about myself.

    Oh, how I do analyze.

  8.  #8Labbit on January 20, 2015 at 10:36 am

    I felt so emotions reading this post. Part of my felt judgey, part of me felt sad, part of me felt angry. I can see how easy it is for me, not being in this situation myself, to understand the dynamics in play here and see it for what it is. And then I’ve also lived this through this kind of deal, where a man’s words are promising me everything I so badly want, and it makes me hang on even though his actions aren’t lining up with his words AT ALL and deep down inside I know I’m in a bad situation.

    Alice, I feel for you so deeply. I know how hard it is not only to see the reality of what’s happening here, but how hard it is to have to be the strong one who takes care of yourself when all we want is for this man to wrap us up in his arms and make it all better.

    It’s so hard to be the emotionally mature one sometimes, to do what is best for ourselves…it feels so wrong WHILE we are taking care of ourselves and I hate that part. It’s only afterwards that I’ve been able to realize how bad things really were.

    I know it’s not a test from the Universe…but sometimes it feels like one.

  9.  #9Labbit on January 20, 2015 at 10:42 am

    Gemini Goddess — LOL, I can identify with your thought process and analyzing. Isn’t it weird how hard it can be to ask for something simple? It feels like an imposition and I don’t even know why.

    I think it’s great that you asked him anyway. He did offer to help, even if not specifically the task you had in mind, and it will give him a lot of masculine pleasure to pick you up I’m sure. I hope your procedure goes well!

  10.  #10Labbit on January 20, 2015 at 10:50 am

    Today I’m kind of laying back and listening to myself…mostly trying to listen to my body but there’s plenty going on in my mind unfortunately. Everyone says change is uncomfortable and I’m feeling VERY uncomfortable right now.

    It’s at the point where TenderCD is now noticing it too…last night he shared that he felt like I was rushing through things we were doing and it was throwing him off his rhythm. I realized he was right immediately. It was hard not beat myself up about it, too, why I don’t know because in my heart I’m actually thrilled that he feels so comfortable with me now that he’ll give me direct feedback and welcomes mine too.

    I keep noticing myself wanting to put all my energy on him. Focusing on myself, taking care of myself, it feels greedy to me. Selfish. And yet I know I’m at my most attractive when I’m focused on me.

    I’ve been thinking about one of my past relationships a lot, how I barely cared if he was there or not and how devoted to me this made him. Where is the balance? I want to be really into a guy and still have his devotion. When I tip my focus towards me I feel like I’m losing him even though the evidence shows the contrary. This all feels so backwards to me at the moment.

  11.  #11Labbit on January 20, 2015 at 11:17 am

    On the plus side though, something is literally opening up in my chest. I have heard cracks in my ribs all day and while that mind sound off it actually feels really good…

  12.  #12Labbit on January 20, 2015 at 11:17 am

    *that might sound off not that mind sound off, haha. Yup, in my head today LOL!

  13.  #13Iris on January 20, 2015 at 11:45 am

    Hello Sirens,

    Much of my inner work revolves around working with my anger. Basically with J, sometimes I feel so triggered that I last out at him, and we fight. I find myself dealing with it better now than a few months ago, but we’ve been fighting recently, and I now feel guilty doing the whole “one step forward-two steps back”. (I re-read Rori’s post on Girls/2 steps back circa March 2014). Right now I’m making extra efforts on loving myself, and doing extra wonderful things for myself.

    Ladies, please share with me your experiences to where you find yourself beating yourself, and feeling helpless as if you don’t feel like you’re growing/progressing/expanding at all.


  14.  #14Iris on January 20, 2015 at 11:57 am

    @ Mandy #4,

    I’m PMSing too! I feel bloated, anxious, nauseated, and depressed. I’m work, struggling with getting anything done. I just want to crawl in bed and sleep until cycle reverts back to “normal”

  15.  #15Cutie on January 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm

    Iris, I have historically had a huge problem with lashing out. I could not seem to control those moments when I exploded in rage. For me, it’s all about an elaborate defense system that never wants a man to really get close to my heart.

    Through therapy, I learned that whenever I feel bad or off in my relationship, even if there’s a good chance it’s all in my head and he has done absolutely nothing wrong, I need to immediately talk to my partner about what I’m feeling.

    So that means getting very consistent and committed to tracking my emotions, so I’m actually AWARE of when I FIRST start getting even a SLIGHT negative feeling with my man. Otherwise, it slips past me, and it’s not until multiple small negative feelings have built up that I explode in anger.

    Communicating my insecurity or other negative emotion right away has really helped me. And my therapist teaches, just like Rori, to use feeling messages and get vulnerable around this stuff. And when I do it before the negative feelings build up and gain a whole bunch of power, it feels really good for both of us.

  16.  #16Azure Blu on January 20, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    I too used to NOT be able to talk about ANYTHING
    that was bothering me
    with a man I was close to…
    Or anyone for that matter…
    It would all build up and then I EXploded!
    How cruel and abusive it was to them
    and to ME

    Yes, over the years as I peeled back the layers of
    FEAR and Terror
    Pain and anguish…
    I started to be able to stop punishing MYSELF
    by pushing people away…

    Since RORI …I am MUCH better at sharing
    what I am feeling right away…
    MORE and MORE (even the scary parts)
    and sooo the outbursts have gotten
    Less and Less!!
    So happy for this!

  17.  #17Indigo on January 20, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    Cutie & Azure Blu,

    I am very intrigued by this discussion around intimacy and explosions of anger. I could never understand why my mom (when I was a child) would explode in fits of rage to us her family behind closed doors, yet present such a charming, polite face to the outside world.

    Can you answer this for me since this is something you have both experienced, do you think there is something about the relationships with the ones you love that brings that anger up for some reason? That there is something about love that triggers it?

  18.  #18Azure Blu on January 20, 2015 at 1:36 pm

    Looking back, I really did suffer from emotional impairment.
    It was soooo unfair to the ones I love to
    Have been so angry…
    especially my children
    when they were so small…
    I have apologized to them and have
    since worked on gaining their trust
    and forgiveness by changing…
    sharing with them how I have worked
    at changing… although i do have a close relationship with both of them now (31yrs & 34yrs)
    but damage was done and it takes time to heal…

    It is difficult to say why,,, many, many reasons…
    Self loathing, self hatred, feeling less than…
    Neglected and abused while growing up

    I must have been exquisitely in terror, at anyone
    whom I loved, seeing the real me, inside… the UGLY, Disgusting person that was me..

    MANY years of therapy and now Rori…
    learning how to LOVE me more and more
    has healed so much of the RAGE (terror)…
    it is Magical and Miraculous…
    I am VERY grateful

  19.  #19Victoria on January 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm

    My father is like your mother. I think the reasons he repeatedly had bouts of short temper is simply that he got away with it as no one in the family had the courage to stand up to him – I was just a child and my mom had a very weak personality. I learnt to stay away and she learnt to pretend she has one deaf ear. Love has nothing to do with it.

  20.  #20Cutie on January 20, 2015 at 1:57 pm

    Hmm, I think everyone who has had a rage problem probably has different reasons, so speaking for myself, love very much has something to do with it.

    Indigo, I grew up with a mother exactly like yours. She herself grew up in a home with a drunk father who physically abused her mother on a regular basis. Needless to say, effective communication and coping skills were not taught in my mother’s childhood home. The sole focus was survival.

    As for me and my own rage issue, I’m sure some of it comes down from being raised by a verbally abusive and unpredictably angry mother. She has since changed enormously and is a great source of peace in my life.

    The other part of it, which feels like the lion’s share of the reason why I have struggled with this anger is something I shared toward the end of a previous recent thread, and I’ll share it again here:

    You see, I lost my father in a gruesome way when I was a young teen. I loved him very much. He was my hero, and I was his princess. I believe this incident, coupled with my lack of coping skills and support at the time, created some kind of post-traumatic stress in me.

    Perhaps because our relationships with our parents have a certain level of influence on the ways in which we relate to our romantic partners, each time I began to really feel myself falling for a man it was comparable to a war veteran hearing fireworks.

    In other words, any real feelings of love I developed for a man reminded me, on some level, of my deep love for my father. Then that would cue my fear of a gruesome and heart-wrenching and blindsiding loss, which in turn would trigger me to begin pushing the man away through cold and cruel behavior.

    I would become hyper-vigilant, looking for signs that I was going to be crushed again like I was when Dad died. I would see smoke where there was no fire, and stir up all kinds of drama as a backhanded way to create distance between me and any man I loved, especially right after a time when we had made gains in growing closer.

    See, being close and intimately connected and attached meant that I had my “neck out there,” and I might get hurt. So, to my defense system, which was just trying to protect me, it was better to rage and keep some distance between the man and my heart.

    I hardly have the words to express how relieved I feel to be unraveling this pattern now. With an incredible man. One whom I probably would not have given the time of day pre-Rori Raye. Wow.

    I don’t think this really applies to what you were asking about your mom, but it feels good to me to write it out and release it once again.

  21.  #21Gemini Goddess on January 20, 2015 at 1:59 pm

    Yippee! Yippee! Yah! Yah! I feel so high value!!!

    D texted back right away to ask where, and when, and pointed out he’d need to drive me there. When I got in the car he told me he’d pushed back a conference call so he could do it in his car while he waited!

    After the appointment, it turned out they didn’t do a root canal but will have to extract instead. (Yuck!) When I told him about the upcoming extraction he immediately asked when and where, and reworked his Thursday morning schedule to get me there and back! I didn’t have to ask for a thing. I LOVE this!

    I just cannot emphasis enough what a turn around this is for me. Without doubt, two+ years ago I would have either A) said I didn’t need help, then been secretly bitter that he hadn’t offered/insisted, blown-up later, felt badly about blowing up, and finally ending up apologizing for being “wrong” about the whole thing, only to feel even more scared of my emotions the next time, or B) when he asked if I ‘needed any help from him’, I would have said something like “Well, you COULD have asked if I needed a ride home, instead if I ‘needed help from you’. That didn’t sound very welcoming”, which would have made us both feel instantly crappy.

    WOW, is this better!!!! This feels so great!!!! Cloud 9!!

  22.  #22Azure Blu on January 20, 2015 at 1:59 pm

    Indigo… PS
    After I had my children I slowly started realizing
    what little capacity for true love, nurturing and intimacy I really had…
    Since I had not been shown by my parents
    who must not have gotten anything from
    their parents…

    I started realizing I did NOT want this to
    continue down the generations…
    The ONLY one who could stop this
    WAS ME!!
    I was on a Mission
    to BREAK the CHAINS of abuse,
    shame and neglect as best as I could…

    Sooo I started reading EVERY book i could
    getting therapy whenever I could afford it
    (for me and for them)
    practicing and seeking EVERY day
    to unravel the damage
    and RE EMERGE from the ashes

    sew up my heart with loving care
    and share all of the with MY children…

    Of course Life is bumpy and things Take MUCH
    longer than I would have EVER thought…
    but I know I am much happier, calm
    and Less angry than at any point in my life…
    My family has healed
    because I have changed,

    I can hear the Universe singing and me too!!!

  23.  #23Azure Blu on January 20, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    !!! Love!!! this…
    Sooo wonderful!!!

  24.  #24Cutie on January 20, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    Along the lines of what Victoria said, it was not until I met my current guy that I really was ready to take steps to finally get this problem under control. You see, he was the first guy who stood up to me and told me he would walk away if I continued to lash out at him.

    Granted, the soil was already fertile for me to make this change, as I had been avidly practicing Rori the previous nine months and had done several stints in therapy in the past to work through the loss of my father.

    Also, I got clear on the fact that I really do want that lifelong love and deeply intimate connection, and that my rage would ALWAYS prevent me from having that.

    So, when my current guy said “Get this under control or, as much as I love you, I’m walking,” I took his orders and got into therapy again. It seemed to be the final push I needed to really turn the corner on this.

    Though I do “relapse” now and again, it is not anywhere close to what it used to be. I feel confident that things will only continue to get better.

  25.  #25Cutie on January 20, 2015 at 2:10 pm

    Gemini Girl, wow, I feel so happy reading your post! What an amazing thing to be able to receive like that! And to see how much he loves to give! As Rori says, men really do want to be like the guys in the movies. They really do want to be our knights in shining armor. Cheers, siren!

  26.  #26Azure Blu on January 20, 2015 at 2:10 pm

    {{{Cutie}}} #20
    I feel so sad about the horrible, trauma you went thru as a teen at the loss of your beloved father…

    So happy for the healing you are now experiencing…
    and that you are able to feel intimacy more and more
    with your “Incredible Man”
    I feel so warm, like a soft, pink blanket wrapped allll around me… knowing that the Rori tools are so powerful and life affirming

  27.  #27Cutie on January 20, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    I’m feeling the urge to note that, while it feels so good to kind of process the reasons behind my intimacy issues, I also know that WHY it happens/happened is not nearly as important as simply CHANGING IT.

    I used to get caught up in a bit of paralysis by analysis, spending so much time in my head trying to figure out the reasons behind my lashing out and shutting down, rather than putting all that energy toward positive change. I guess I thought I needed to know why I did it in order to change it, and maybe there is some truth to that for me.

    I also was recently listening to Rori’s “Reconnect Your Relationship,” and she talks about how many, many people, both men AND women, have fear of intimacy, and she thinks women’s fear of intimacy might even be greater. So I don’t think this all comes down to me losing my dad, but that may have increased the fears of letting men get close to me.

  28.  #28Cutie on January 20, 2015 at 2:17 pm

    Azure, thank you!! And you thank you for sharing your own story around this topic. It feels good to know I’m not alone. And it feels even better to know that we’re both healing this love-repelling pattern!

  29.  #29Azure Blu on January 20, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    LOL – YES – Love repelling pattern!
    worked like a charm for years!!

  30.  #30Iris on January 20, 2015 at 2:42 pm

    @ Cutie #15

    @ Azureblu #16

    Thanks for sharing. I always feel better going along my journey, and seeing people walking on their own journey on a parallel road 😀

  31.  #31Moon on January 20, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    Sirens, major trigger for me today. Since we broke up, I had my ex blocked on fb. Today I got curious and unblock him (my mistake). Fb stalking is the worst. I found out he has been commenting on every pic of a girl he met on a trip just before we started dating. Once we had a big fight because he was talking to her via whatsapp. He commented “my favorite smile” on her pic. Ouch. I feel furious, sad, like my head is going to explode. My body aches. I was his favorite smile. This hurts.

  32.  #32IamHis on January 20, 2015 at 4:17 pm

    @10Labbit – Yes! Yes and more yes. I almost feel like I have to pretend to not be interested, or really force myself to lose interest by keeping really busy if I want to keep a guy I REALLY want interested. It feels really unfair or something. Like a guy can be as crazy about you as he wants, but don’t YOU get too interested in him of you’ll lose him. Makes me feel sad and annoyed…

  33.  #33IamHis on January 20, 2015 at 5:04 pm

    New Guy called me tonight. It was weird though, because it only rang long enough for him to show up on my caller ID. I feel like he is gauging my interest. I want to scream, “Too soon! We’re still getting to know each other! How can I even know how interested I am if I still don’t know you?”

    One of his messages for me is that I tend to give up and bail out on guys way too soon, before we’ve really gotten to know each other. I’m so scared of getting hurt and of intimacy…

  34.  #34IamHis on January 20, 2015 at 5:08 pm

    I texted him, did you mean to call me? & he said yes. I guess I was leaning forward when I asked, do you plan to do it again?

    I’m really starting to question if it is possible for a woman to not somewhat lean forward in the beginning if she is truly interested.

    I tend to feel scared & angry if I’m truly attracted & interested. I feel afraid they take it as disinterest or just plum crazy. …

  35.  #35prplpsn28 on January 20, 2015 at 5:14 pm


  36.  #36prplpsn28 on January 20, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    Oops…forgot to check the “notify me” box. No change with anything with H or C. Just continuing to lean way back. No contact.

  37.  #37Dominique on January 20, 2015 at 6:41 pm

    Gemini Goddess – 21 – HUGE 🙂


  38.  #38lovetodance on January 20, 2015 at 6:46 pm

    22 azure blu…

    what incredible work you have done and continue to do!

  39.  #39lovetodance on January 20, 2015 at 6:52 pm

    21 gemini goddess

    how fabulous! how wonderful to receive and let yourself be taken care of…

    it makes me think of all the ways i have not asked or asked indirectly or gotten all tied up in knots because i was afraid to ask just clearly for what i needed…

    [i know for me it is connected to learning or feeling did i have the right to ask? would i be hurt if i did?]

    and reading this….seeing the effect clarity has on life…yes! i am experiencing ….practicing… exploring this way of communicating so much more… using feeling statements more….taking the time to get clear on what i need and how i feel and that i am as important as the next person….and i can ask….

    and i can be vunerable….

  40.  #40lovetodance on January 20, 2015 at 7:02 pm

    31 moon

    oh i feel sad for you moon ….experiencing that….

    that is one of the reasons i left fb….too tempting to peek into worlds that can just trigger or hurt me…

    always made me wonder ….WHY do i do that….? who needs extra anguish!

    i send you hugs and comfort….

    i hope you can find a way to comfort yourself now…to love on you big time…to know that something and someone better is waiting in line for you….
    i know how hard to believe at moments like this….
    but if he had been right for you….he would be here now….

    big warm hug darling siren! this too shall pass….big deep breaths…

  41.  #41Mandy on January 20, 2015 at 8:51 pm

    I wanted to say…I felt bad about the other day when I was seriously triggered with anger about the sexual psychology stuff.

    I want to say I love the Sirens. Every one of them, even if we don’t agree, or get triggered…I love all of you, you are all beautiful people, your own person, a uniquely patterned snowflake, not like anyone else…very special and you should be allowed to shine…through your emotions, words, presence, personality 🙂

    Sometimes I can feel very very mad if I feel misunderstood/left out/etc.

    Meow…trying my best to stay in Siren or Zen mode….it was hard today. Noxious fumes are coming into my apartment from next door because I seriously think they are cleaning something weird up in there, and it’s weird, because I totally switched apartments to come to the GOOD side of town and a NICE apartment…to find a lab next to me? EW!

    Then, remembering how I went through this ordeal recently about going to my family doctor and giving a urine sample to test for Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and some stupid staff member throwing it out, and the office lying to me about it being thrown away. Well eventually I got the news I’d been lied to and the sample was tossed, and so I went in yesterday to give another sample.

    Well the doctor wants me to do ANOTHER…THIRD SAMPLE…because he says there was blood in my urine, ketones and glucose in it too.

    What he doesn’t REALIZE is I’m on the Atkins diet, which pus your body into ketosis (I.e, you pee out ketones) because your body is burning your extra fat, and turning it into glycogen for fuel.

    The doc thinks I’m diabetic because I am in Ketosis…I’m like NO, I’M LOW-CARBING IT MAN…..I don’t have damn diabetes, and the blood in the sample was from my period…

    I feel like a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest and so overwhelmed! It was hard feeling Sireny today because of it all….

    I am being patient with J. He may not feel like opening up right now and I get that. I will know when he wants to, or I’ll get fed up and get attention from someone else. I love it.

    I am so glad I’m Circular Dating again…Rori would be proud of me for breaking through again and not being afraid of what J would think 🙂

    The sun will be out tomorrow…

    A new day a new breath, a new feeling, a new vibe…right? Pixie dust….pixie dust….sloooow the brain dowwwwwn…..move my hand through water slowly…do some slowww yoga, some slowing down, enjoying the crisp night air, not saying a word, just feeling, with J.

    Breathe, Slow it down, Mandy, you can do it! 🙂 (My boy side talking to me…hehe.)

    But I love you Sirens! Please take it to heart, I really do love you all. 🙂

  42.  #42Lovergirl on January 20, 2015 at 9:43 pm

    Talking about rage…. I grew up in an abusive home- abusive, raging stepfathers (yes one after the other) and one that beat my mom. So when I got married I picked a man who was very passive. He seemed like such a “nice guy”. I liked that he never rose his voice, because yelling from a man put so much fear in me. He felt “safe”.

    Myself, I can come off as very passive as well. I’ve had people ask me if I’ve ever raised my voice. (Yes, of course, but most people don’t have an opportunity to see me angry). I prided myself on being even keel and not losing my temper with my kids and with the kids I used to work with (kids with behavioral issues).

    Yet here I am, with one of the most difficult teenage boys on the planet. Seriously. My son rages and rages. It’s awful. I had a counselor suggest that maybe he was taking on the anger for the rest of the family and because I didn’t show it. Ouch. That gave me some food for thought.

    I don’t know if that’s what it is, but sometimes the only thing that calms him down is when he is able to push me to showing some kind of emotion, anger or tears. Then he will feel bad and apologize. I am trying to work on using “feeling messages” with him too. :p

  43.  #43Tatia Dee on January 20, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    This is an awesome and soooooo needed article! Sharing because I know there are women who need to read this!

  44.  #44Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 1:29 am

    Azure Blu & Cutie,

    Thank you so much for opening up about your personal stories surrounding rage and anger. This was very, very helpful and interesting for me to read.

    Azure Blu, I loved reading about how you decided to break the cycle and regain your children’s trust.

    Cutie – my mom has also healed from the vast majority of her rage, and is now a source of peace to me as well. She also had a very neglected childhood. It was very insightful for me to read about how you would blow up about insignificant things as a way to keep man at a distance, especially after a time of closeness. This was very interesting for me.

    I also tend to agree that the why of why these situations arise is a lot less important than changing the behaviour. Overthinking can be a very stressful and counterproductive exercise. I also find the tendency to blame yourself when you overthink is very high.

    I am sitting with a situation which in many ways is the make or break one for me and D. You could really say that up till now it’s been our impasse. D has a bit of a rage problem – the unreasonable, throwing a bit of a tantrum and then withdrawing kind. He knows it, and I know it. He even knows he’s being unreasonable. He doesn’t want to solve it, he basically wants to have his little hissy fit, and then be left completely alone to get over it and cool down. Once he has gotten over it, it is more or less forgotten. I, on the other hand, want to resolve things and make them better. It is upsetting to me to see someone lose their cool, because it triggers early fears of abandonment for me. Can I learn to just leave him alone until he’s got over whatever is bothering him and trust that he won’t leave me? Do I have that ability? I’m not sure if I have the answer to that question.

  45.  #45Victoria on January 21, 2015 at 2:23 am

    so, here comes the story of my parents for you. He sounds like your D., while she is a very meek person, I don’t think I have ever heard her raise her voice. They married very young because she got pregnant (with me). He is charming with outsiders, very good looking (used to be), the life of the party. And, he has a very short temper, and gets angry, and offensive, and then withdrawing. He is rude and uncaring with his words. She is extemely even tempered and just DOES NOT GET TRIGGERED BY HIM. Like she does not hear the tantrums, the rage, the insults. I hated them both for this. He also drinks heavily ( I think this contrubutes to the anger outbursts). I think they should have been divorced a long time ago (they were separated for 2 years) but my mom did not want the stigma of a divorced woman (whatever that is).
    I have no advice for you, just to let you know that this can go on for a very long time, in a +40 years of marriage.
    As I said before, I do not think his love has to do anything with his short temper, it is just a part of his personality. I am also sure that he has never loved anyone more than me (I am his only child) but he has been rude and mean to me all my life.
    You know I realize this probably sounds so harsh. I kind of can think of some positive things to say about him too, and when I have not seen him for a long time, I have a warm feeling about him, and when I get phylosophical I think yes, I am lucky to have him (as if I have a choice :-)) and when I try to look at him objectively I can find the reasons in his own parents and background. And with all these good intentions, when I am in the same room/same house for more than a few hours, he would just have a fit, and I would remember, again and again, how difficult he is to tollerate.

  46.  #46Victoria on January 21, 2015 at 2:28 am

    The other thing is, my mom says I am starting to resemble him as I age.
    Thank you, mom.
    I always choose men who are the exact opposite of him. People who do not touch alchohol and are very even tempered and kind and sweet and a bit on the feminine side.
    I need my mom.

  47.  #47Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 2:42 am


    I cannot imagine you being anything like your dad as you describe him. You seem so cool and unfussed and light hearted.

    Thank you for telling me this story – I am also very sure that D has never loved anyone as much as he loves me, but that his rage problem is somewhat beyond his control. That is to say, I don’t think he is more able to control it because he loves me, I think if anything our strong emotional connection makes him feel even more exposed and terrified. He deals with it by withdrawing. Like you, there is a part of me that is baffled by it, and I think he knows that it is a character flaw – what he basically wants is just to be left alone until it cools down.

    D has different things which contribute to this such as his health and his level of pain, but really I suppose that does not matter. It just is what it is. Over time I have worked out what works with him – and it is 100% leaning back, and backing up when I can see he is in a mood.

  48.  #48Moon on January 21, 2015 at 4:19 am

    @ Lovetodance 39 Thank you for your kind words! I feel very angry, I think mostly at myself. She also triggers me because she seems like the “cool girl” and right now I feel like the total opposite of that…. (Sigh).

  49.  #49lovetodance on January 21, 2015 at 5:14 am

    47 moon

    i feel you…

    and what she seems like and what she is we don’t know really

    and really

    whats important whats really important is how you feel/love you deep inside…

    so easy to say and not so easy to do

    but i know its the only way out for me…

    i woke up this am from a very bad rejection dream…chasing a man who was literally running away from me…oh my god…my worst fears …to be that rejected….to be that leaning forward and tossed away!

    waking up with that kind of emotional chemicals running thro my system…wow…

    so i lay there just trying to quiet my mind and soothe my spirit….with loving all my upset…loving all those feelings of rejection…loving all that hurt…

    and it helps..and it takes alot of energy

    i keep reading in different arenas….not to take things personally….really?! so hard yet in the long run …and short run…..soooo wise!

    so i hug myself..and send you warm hugs too!

  50.  #50Victoria on January 21, 2015 at 5:28 am

    Bad temper ofen has an underlying medical reason (pain). I am very aware of this, because I had a tooth extracted recently and terrible pain for more than a week. I was so miserable and so short tempered. Being in constant pain is so terrible, it robs you of the ability to appreciate life and people.
    As for my father, I have learnt lately that his short temper and rage are most likely a consequence of him having sleep apnea. This is a condition related to him being a heavy smoker – he does not get enough oxygen while he sleeps and he does not have a normal REM sleep, consequently he is always grumpy.
    But. I have caused none of this. It was not my making, neither I am capable to make him stop his heavy smoking, or do anything to improve his health. So, it is just not fair.

  51.  #51Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 5:54 am


    D has rheumatoid arthritis – his is moderate to severe actually. I know that he is in pain most of the time. As you say, I feel such compassion for him but I have not caused this. I just want to help and be there for him. And what he needs is for me to be the emotional grounding rod when he is feeling upset, and to NOT help him but to leave him be. This shouldn’t be hard for me! Well, I’m just DOing it because I know this is my lesson. We were able to have a short chat today which was enlightening.

  52.  #52Andrea on January 21, 2015 at 6:12 am

    Oh Moon so ouch! I know how you feel.
    I used to do that with my ex: facebook stalk him. And groan over every new friend he added, wondering who she was, why she got access to him and I didn’t anymore, why she was so much better than me.
    I would compare “her” to me, thinking that she must be “better” than me because it seemed like from my perspective he was choosing her over me.

    And who gave him the power to “choose” ?? Who gave him the power to make me feel less than? And I had to start asking myself… why? Why did I give him so much power?

    Until I started to Rori-fy myself in such an intense and mystical way that I finally understood that it was just simply that He was not The One for me Right Now.

    I turned toward myself. I didn’t even try to stop stalking him, I didn’t try to ignore that impulse, I didn’t try to stop thinking about him. I just let myself be. But I kept asking myself… “I’m curious, what are you REALLY feeling right now.”

    And the more I dug into my true feelings, the less I was enamored of using thoughts about him to hurt myself. The more I began loving myself, the less attractive it became to me to hurt myself at all.

    The power of the ex kind of dropped when I realized that all along it had been my choice to give those thoughts about him such emphasis and power.

    Now, as I’m dating other men, I kind of feel encouraged when, at the beginning stages they are seeing other women. I feel that when if I stay true to my authentic self and share my true feelings and be my siren self… ME… not some “cool” version of someone else’s ideal that a woman “should” be… but If I remain true to ME, then the man who is right for me, my ONE will step up and claim me.

    Just learning this now. No comparison to other women, because my ONE will recognize me and eventually he won’t want to be with anyone else but me. No effort on my part, no chasing or belittling myself, or twisting into pretzels to “please” him. Because my ONE will want ME to show up in each moment and ME to be completely present when I’m with him. He’ll want to know the real ME, and that will give him the safety to show the real HIM.

    And I don’t want that intimacy with anyone else but my ONE. Not my ex, not my imaginary relationships, not my CD’s and practice dates… so they are all free to go ahead and find their ONES.

    Not every one is going to fall in love with me. I only want my ONE. I give my ex the freedom and the right and the joy to find his ONE. As icky as our break up was, he really is a wonderful man, and he really does deserve the love of his life. And it’s not me.

    Anyway, Moon. I hope your heart heals. This blog and the coaches and the other ladies are such great resources. I’m so grateful everyday that I found this site.

  53.  #53Victoria on January 21, 2015 at 6:35 am

    An update on me.
    I had a fantastic date with F. yesterday, and I know now for sure that after a moment of great intimacy, he will lean back/pull away. It has happened numerous times (or always?) and it is usually very very hard for me, because after great closenss I want more closeness, whereas he wants less, and I would chase him or pester him, even break up with him. I did not recognize this pattern before, but this time I knew about it and was expecting it. So, just as expected, at the end of our date yesterday, he made no plans to see each other today. Today I was all ears to see when he’d call me and wouldn’t he like to see me again. I already made plans with friends for the day, but was so ready to cancel on them, should he (accidentally :-)) decide he wants to see me again. Hope springs eternal. He called me on the phone, and it was a pleasant conversation which I had to cut off due to work. He made no plans, no request to see me, no promise to call me again later in the day. I am feeling so much better about the whole thing, it is as if I am just objectively observing to see what intensity of contact feels good to him. I know to me I would like to see him every day, and I can clearly see he is not there yet, possibly he will never be. Do I want to pine after a man who needs me less than I need him? Well, I do not want to pine after him, but I really really like him, he is nice, and sweet, and tremendously handsome, so yes, I can hang in there for some more time. Why not. I have kind of got the handle on the “pining away” thing. I also know like clockwork that he will want to see me tomorrow.
    Sometimes I am so tempted to tell him exactly how I would like our relationship to be. I would like to know on Monday, which days I will see him, for how long, and if possible, clearly what his intentions are for the next 52 weeks. Do you think I am crazy? But I have taken to heart Rori’s advice and the wise siren who told me not to give away the test results.
    So, I am leaning back, smiling to myself, and making plans for tonight with someone else. Mmmmm, I am so sireny.

  54.  #54Andrea on January 21, 2015 at 6:42 am

    Ooohhh… two things: Imaginary Relationship!! I feel so intrigued and connected to this new article by Rori.
    And I love Rori’s answers. I apply this to my imaginary relationship with RRguy.

    Andrea, You’re not going to like this. But this is what’s true.
    1. This relationship does not exist.

    2. It is convenient for RRguy. When you make yourself available to him everytime he comes into your town, and you give him attention and sex and your energy… it is convenient for him. And it is EASY for him. All he has to do is charm you, gift you, say a few right words, make promises. But then he goes back home, and it’s no longer convenient for him to contact you in any way…. so he doesn’t.

    3. The energy you are giving this man is robbing you of a vibrant life you could be having.

    4. Andrea, why are you focusing on a man who isn’t already with you?

    Yes! I love this. And I see that focusing on RRguy has been an easy way out for me. It is what I’m used to. It is my type of relationship and my version of “love” that has been handed down to me by my father and all the other truly unavailable men that I have clung on to… the low laying fruit. hahahahah

    I idealized my Dad who was always GONE. And etc…

    I don’t have to deal with true intimacy if I’m focusing on RRguy because he’s always gone. And when he’s here in my town it’s a roller coaster ride of affections and sex and actually emptiness because he says that I’m his girl, but then he leaves and it’s okay in his world to not have any contact with “his girl” for a long time.

    And do I really want that in a long term relationship? Do I really want a man who is always so busy that I only get to connect with him once or twice a month? Why would I want that??? It’s just that I’m used to that and it’s the easy way for me.

    Number two: I feel kind of…. awesome! That I’m inspired by Leigha’s site and by Rori and Tatia Dee.

    This imaginary relationship with RRguy is teaching me so much. I feel that angst every once in a while, that tug … “He’s not contacting me. He told ME to call HIM if I ever want anything. I don’t want that anxiousness though. I want him to want to contact me.” etc…

    But instead of DOING anything, I’ve just been holding my space. I’ve been imagining myself as a light house.. as per Leigha’s suggestion. A light house that stands still, rooted, grounded, solid in her own wonderful purposeful life, and shines a beacon of light from with in to guide sailors safely to my shore.

    I’m not trudging up and down the beach, trying to convince the sailors to follow my light. I’m not moaning about the fact that some simply don’t want to, some want to stay out in the water, some want to follow other beams, some are happy in the storm, some want to dock on other shores.

    But some notice me. Some are drawn toward me.

    I haven’t called or contacted RRguy at all this last go around. I don’t know if he’s been to my city or not. When I feel that “missing” him, I ask myself to dig deeper and feel what I’m really feeling.

    I don’t really miss him because the HIM that he’s offering me right now is actually not something that I want.

    I miss sex, playfulness, conversation, companionship, and that… hope… I miss that hope that maybe this one was the one. He felt so familiar to me. Now I see that familiarity was my past, my little abandoned girl, missing her daddy, calling out to be given a voice.

    I love that abandoned girl, and now I see that I have the power to heal her, make her whole, feel her sorrow and her longing to be loved, and her fear that true intimacy isn’t real love because then that would mean we have to re-evaluate daddy’s love. And knowing that as an adult I can integrate that little lost girl into my reservoir of safety and I can love her more than any daddy, any man, any OTHER ever could.

    The power of our connections with other people is so magnificent. I feel so thankful that I’m finding the message that RRguy is giving for me. And I’m not needing to sacrifice my dignity in order to do it.

    This is an imaginary relationship, but one with many benefits for me.

    I just recently started a new profile on an online dating site. I’m feeling ready to meet men again who live in my city, who are close in proximity to me. Time to gather another CD.

    RRguy is definitely still on my horse and I’ll be inviting when I hear from again. But I have new strength in my boundaries and renewed faith in my ability to take care of my own emotions, and renewed trust in myself to allow in love.. love… Strong on the inside, Soft on the outside. Be Light.

  55.  #55Victoria on January 21, 2015 at 7:04 am

    Oh, Andrea.
    You know we can frame almost every relationship with a man as an imaginary relationship, except for the rare and short moments of pure euphoria.
    I can frame my relationship with F. as an imaginary relationship because I want more than what he is giving me (daily physical contact). I can compare his love confessions and his swearing that he is practically addicted to me to the fact that in any given week there are more days when I don’t see him than days when I see him.
    But you know what, this is who he is. It is not about me. I am lovely and gorgeous and I love him and appreciate him, and honestly, there is zero reason for me to beat myself for what he is not giving me.
    So, for your situation, I so feel for you, and for myself, and for each one of us who wants more than what we have. And, in your case, and mine, I do not think spending energy of these men is robbing us of a better life we could be having. I think for me, F. is contributing for me having some fantastic times, and in your case RR guy has probably done the same. So, it is all just fine. 🙂

  56.  #56Andrea on January 21, 2015 at 7:15 am

    I hear you Victoria.

    For me, when RRguy isn’t here, and I’m focusing more on him and why he isn’t here and why isn’t he contacting me and what did I do wrong and and and…

    That is what’s robbing my vibrant, vital, love joy energy.. taking it away from myself and putting it on something that just isn’t real.

    And yes, RRguy provides some really wonderful joojoo when he’s in my face, so I’m not taking him off my CD list. oooooohhhhh whew! Does he ever!!

    But hoping for a future with ONLY him, as things stand now, no, that’s the imaginary part. Moment by moment.. when he’s in proximity, enjoying every second that he is focusing on me… Yeah!! Baby! But, when he’s not, I get to free myself to focus on myself, my dreams, my goals, other men, etc.

    (I’m so so grateful that I’m not more attached or invested. I’m so grateful that I can see this “relationship” for what it is Right Now. And just gear myself to enjoy what it is, but free myself to enjoy other relationships as well as they are.)

  57.  #57Victoria on January 21, 2015 at 7:23 am

    I tend to see this “do not think about him when he is not in your face” as a theoretical goal, an ideal, like brotherhood and equality among people, but not something that we can practically/pragmatically imlement/worry about.
    The more I tell myself not to think about the word “elephant”, the more elephants enter my head.

  58.  #58Victoria on January 21, 2015 at 7:29 am

    I also wanted to say, you did absolutely nothing wrong, never. Are you worried that you slept with him too soon, and that if you had been withholding this, it could have been different? If you could go back in time and change the sequence of events between you and him, would you re-live your life differently? Why?
    I think we just need to enjoy enjoy enjoy life. I am in an etxremely good mood, because, among other things, this is my second pain-free day after a week of terrible toothache, and yes, I am very appreciative of life as it is. And I feel so privilidged to have met you and to be able to talk to you, now how amazing is that!

  59.  #59Azure Blu on January 21, 2015 at 8:20 am

    Andrea… #53
    Thank you for this…

    I do understand what you are talking about….
    Imaginary relationship
    RRguy is much like Spirit now….
    I think you and I both gave it our all///

    We were open, vulnerable and authentic
    We practiced our feeling messages
    setting our boundaries
    Receiving what they have to give

    Gave Enough time to see more clearly
    what they have to give…
    what feels good for us
    what doesn’t feel good for us…
    letting them step up
    if they can…

    For me
    I have been concentrating
    and appreciating
    and receiving
    the CDs that come towards ME
    and show a lot of interest

    I admire how you have
    shared with RRguy
    What you DO WANT in a relationship.
    He knows now…

    I have done the same with Spirit…
    and I feel the pain of letting go
    of “hope”
    the hope that Spirit was Mr. Right

    I know I deserve a man
    who WANTS me and can
    Share his WHOLE life with ME…
    Something that doesn’t
    require my work and effort…

    loving. calm. Easy love.
    coming towards ME!!
    Cheers to our continued JOY and HAPPINESS
    I know we are experiencing this every minute!!!

  60.  #60Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 8:23 am

    Lol, Victoria 56,

    I think the same thing. I’m not aiming for perfection here, because I am very far from it. I’m aiming for more and more calmness, more and more releasing the need to control or push, more and more making progress on my “stuff”. Those are my goals!

    And I agree about being able to frame just about anything as an imaginary relationship. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. These have lots to teach us. I know I could theoretically frame my relationship with D as imaginary, but on so many levels it is incredibly real to me… and I am overwhelmed with gratitude for what this relationship has taught me, so what’s the point of focusing on the “imaginary”? I’d rather focus on what I can learn, how I can be better, how I can be more who I want to be, whilst still loving myself.

    By the way, I feel admiration for you with how you are able to anticipate F’s “pullbacks” and thus go with them… I know my situation is different and it means different things with me and D, but this is also where my “work” is… not trying to control, leaning back and letting it be.

  61.  #61Labbit on January 21, 2015 at 8:32 am

    Andrea — ROCKSTAR. So many amazing ideas and thoughts and powerful beliefs coming through in your comments here. I love that you are keeping RRGuy in your CD rotation but not focusing on him, instead focusing on creating an amazing life for you! Your confidence is shining through and I feel like you must be RADIANT right now. Hooray!!!

    On the imaginary vs real topic: until TenderCD and I went exclusive in late December, I didn’t think of our relationship as real either. A couple of weeks ago while at dinner our waitress asked us how long we’d been together and I told her “Since about December 21st.” And then she gushed about how in love we seemed for such a new couple while TenderCD shot me this really funny, confused look. He asked me about it when the waitress walked away. I shared “Everything before then was great fun but it was also kind of like the application process. How smart a man you were to see if we clicked before putting the idea of marriage out there. Now the REAL FUN has begun.” He loved it! Now he tells everyone about how brilliant he is for waiting before even mentioning the m-word and making us an exclusive couple. 🙂

  62.  #62Labbit on January 21, 2015 at 8:36 am

    59 Indigo — I see your point, yet I also feel strongly that for me at least telling myself things were imaginary with TenderCD was like a coping skill that kept me from putting my focus entirely on him, abandoning my own life and dreams and power in favor of constantly thinking, wondering and dreaming about him.

    Yes the things that are happening are very real. And like Andrea said the most powerful thing we can do as women is give men our presence — also very real. It’s about when we’re away from our men, that’s when they become imaginary to me in a sense. Even now I try to forget about Tender when he’s not around.

  63.  #63Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 8:39 am

    Labbit, yes I agree with you completely

    For me, that shift doesn’t happen quite so seamlessly and easily yet, but I would like to get to that point. Sometimes I think of it a little like changing gears in my mind, and when you’re first learning to drive, the gear change grinds a little and is not so smooth… but I agree, focusing on our own lives and taking care of ourselves when we’re not with our men, and even when we are with them is where our focus needs to be. It’s still a practice for me 🙂

  64.  #64Lovergirl on January 21, 2015 at 8:49 am

    I am feeling happy today. 🙂 Last night I saw my guy and we had great sex and spent time together. I felt like he was making a real effort to do things in a way that would make me feel good about things with us.

    I felt heard. He had listened to me and the things I said I didn’t like and tried to do them differently.

    For example, I had said that I am not motivated when he criticizes me about work related things. So this time he did the opposite and gave me lots of praise regarding my work. I had gotten upset with him once before because he got up from after sex cuddling to answer a text from a woman- so this time when someone was texting him, he said I am not going to answer that, because it would be “rude”. He said it like he was joking, but he stayed with me. After a bit, when his phone rang a couple times he had me go get it and check who was calling for him. It was a male friend and so he texted the guy that he was busy with me. 😉

    I feel a little freaked out because he came in me a little during sex. The miscarriage was 3 months ago and he seemed worried last night for a bit but we had sex two more times anyway. I am close to ovulation but according to the app on my phone I should be past it. Not that that is going to be 100% accurate. A huge part of me would LOVE to have a baby with him, but I’d want it to be if we were “together” and not something he’d resent me for.

    He gave me lots of compliments in bed and made me feel desired. He made comments that made me feel like he is protective of me. I was feeling cared about.

    He gave me money and sent me to pick us up fast food for dinner, which was fine. I was at his house when he got home from work, doing work and he made joking comments about didn’t I have dinner ready? I haven’t cooked for him in awhile and I know he misses that (he was paying me to do so for a while). I kind of felt like I WANTED to cook for him and make him a nice meal, but I am working on not overfunctioning.

  65.  #65Azure Blu on January 21, 2015 at 8:52 am

    Victoria and Indigo #59
    I think I disagree with “being able to frame just about anything as an imaginary relationship.”

    What I am hearing Rori point out
    “There is no one and nothing to blame – AND –
    there’s nothing here for you.”

    That is what “Imaginary Relationship”
    means to me
    -There is NOTHING from this Man
    for ME.

    I thank MY lucky stars – because of Rori-
    I can figure this out More and More
    And be able to Be OPEN to receive LOVE
    (I have given decades to men who couldn’t do relationship – They are NOT to blame- They just couldn’t do relationship)

    But just like Alice-
    as Rori says
    “I allow myself to consider a few good times over the years/months, and a lot of phone conversations/text to be “a relationship.”

    I make it all “mean” something.

    And it doesn’t.

    It doesn’t mean anything.

    It just “is” an experience.”

    I believe there are many Sirens who have shared relationships that ARE NOT imaginary
    Their men have stepped up for them
    In the way THEY WANT and Need.

    There are plenty of relationships
    that are committed, loving, evolving
    side by side into the future…

    But until I can handle a truly
    “non-imaginary relationship”
    I’ll keep practicing!!! :-))

  66.  #66Cutie on January 21, 2015 at 9:38 am

    Ahh, I feel Rori’s words echoing here, “When he’s not in front of you, he doesn’t exist.” And I agree with Victoria that this is more of an ideal to shoot for and practice at than anything that we can “achieve” once and for all. Progress, not perfection.

    And I am noticing how much easier it feels to NOT think about my guy when I feel happy, loved, cared for and secure in our relationship.

    When, for whatever reason, I am NOT feeling happy, loved, cared for and secure, my mind tends to drift toward him much more often.

    Fortunately, that feeling of insecurity is becoming less frequent as I get a handle on speaking up whenever I start to feel that way. He is quick to comfort me and make me feel better right away.

    For me, and this is kind of strange, my man really does not do anything that would make me feel insecure / unsafe. However, I create feelings of insecurity and danger in my mind because I am hyper-vigilant about not getting hurt.

    So, if anybody remembers Mel from the blog, I tend to use a script similar to one she shared on here. I’ll give an example below from when I was out of town recently and our sole source for connection was daily phone conversations.

    “Babe, my brain is trying to convince me that you’re too busy to talk on the phone with me right now [even though he would be the one calling me], and that makes me feel sad, like I’m an impingement on your time. I have a feeling I’m off-base here, but it feels so much better to just talk to you about it so you can help me.”

    And he’s quick to say something along the lines of, “No way! I love talking to you, baby!”

    Note: The whole impingement on him thing is a BIG theme for me and my emotional defense system. I am always worrying that I’m impinging on him somehow. Wow, talk about over functioning and NOT seeing myself as the prize.

    Growing up, I think I learned that the best way to “get” love and be seen as good and lovable was to have no needs (cactus). So I’m always worrying that the ways in which I need him will cause him to feel overburdened or annoyed and then he will leave me.

    BUT as we all know from learning from Rori, men LOVE to be needed and do things for us. What a lesson that is and has been for me. I am a FERN, and he loves nurturing me. It’s my greatest gift to him to LET him nurture me and not worry about him as if he’s a child.

  67.  #67Gemini Goddess on January 21, 2015 at 9:39 am

    Azure Blu – 64

    I like your perspective. I was just thinking that I suppose I could frame my relationship with D as imaginary, and might until there is an actual ring on my finger. Even then there is no guarantee of anything really. It felt so closed up, and cold and frustrating to think that, even brought tension to my shoulders. I am trying so earnestly to be open and vulnerable. A very interesting discussion.

  68.  #68Gemini Goddess on January 21, 2015 at 9:45 am

    Cutie 65

    “I create feelings of insecurity and danger in my mind because I am hyper-vigilant about not getting hurt.”

    So true… and thanks for sharing the script.

  69.  #69Cutie on January 21, 2015 at 9:46 am

    I have been re-listening to “Reconnect Your Relationship,” which is probably my favorite of her programs. Seems like it distills all the other programs into one.

    Anyhoo, she totally addresses the imaginary relationship on there. I believe what she says is that pretty much every relationship is imaginary for at least the first three to five months, the getting to know you period.

    Then, it continues to be “just dating” unless he claims you by asking for exclusivity and putting marriage on the table and agreeing to your “terms” for exclusivity, such as seeing each other at least three times a week with phone calls in between.

    To me, it sounds like she’s saying he’s gotta be making you feel safe and happy on a pretty regular basis, too. Or else you should just keep dating him and also date other guys at the same time.

    That’s my take on what she said, but I would encourage anybody who has the programs and is interested in the concept of real versus imaginary relationships to go and listen to the first two sections of “Reconnect.”

  70.  #70Cutie on January 21, 2015 at 9:52 am

    Thanks, Gemini Goddess, I feel happy you found my post helpful at all! Sometimes I feel alone in my love-repelling defensive behavior, as if I’m the only woman in the whole world who would do this stuff. But that’s just so. not. true.

    What’s so interesting is that I may decide a guy is not making me feel happy and secure, but I’ve really got to look at “my side of the street” first to make sure I’m not acting like a cactus and making it difficult for him to GIVE to me in the first place. Tricky, subtle stuff.

  71.  #71Azure Blu on January 21, 2015 at 9:53 am

    Cutie #68…
    Ahhhh… interesting…
    “every relationship is imaginary for at least the first three to five months, the getting to know you period.”

    this makes since… :-))

  72.  #72Gemini Goddess on January 21, 2015 at 9:54 am


    I grew up in an East Coast military family, think “The Great Santini”. The movie gives me chills. I married a man who is pleasant, and kind, and handsome, and absolutely docile.

    Growing up, I dealt with my own associated rage issues by always being on a sports team and taking it out there. I almost thrived on pushing through physical pain. I was also an emotional suffer and explosion queen.

    I’m convinced we all inherit our own bag of monkeys. I’m no “special case”. I am here to smooth out my energy for me, and thus and my kids, and everyone else I come in contact with.

  73.  #73Gemini Goddess on January 21, 2015 at 9:55 am

    “Stuffer” not “suffer”.

  74.  #74Gemini Goddess on January 21, 2015 at 9:59 am

    I’m going through the “Toxic” program again, at the moment. “Reconnect” will be next. 🙂

  75.  #75Azure Blu on January 21, 2015 at 10:02 am

    I DO have the Toxic program… I should listen to that again!!

  76.  #76Azure Blu on January 21, 2015 at 10:03 am

    !!! GG #71 !!!

  77.  #77Labbit on January 21, 2015 at 10:18 am

    66 Gemini Goddess — Ooohhhhh this is so interesting to me, hearing the flip side of the coin. I feel intrigued! I totally agree that a ring isn’t required to make a relationship real, and all things are temporary anyway. Such is life. However I feel curious that for you thinking of a relationship as imaginary causes tension and stress and I find the reverse true for me. I wonder if our backgrounds or upbringings or perhaps things we’ve experienced have contributed to this.

  78.  #78Labbit on January 21, 2015 at 10:21 am

    68 Cutie – Reconnect is my favorite Rori program! Much like you a few weeks ago I went through the complete collection again and it was so instructive for me. I like to use Reconnect to help center myself, reconnect me with my heart and body!

    I also love the part when Rori opens one of the sections, 5 maybe?, by talking about the woman who is never worried about men. She says something like, can you imagine this woman worrying when she doesn’t hear from a man, or what he’s doing or who he might be with? And I always laugh because that’s usually EXACTLY what I’m doing when I get to that part of the program.

  79.  #79Gemini Goddess on January 21, 2015 at 10:21 am


    Probably because I want SO BADLY for it to be real. I have been a serial-monogamist, and engaged three times in search of “the brass ring”…pardon the pun. Just the response that came immediately to mind. Not thought through, or processed.

  80.  #80Cutie on January 21, 2015 at 10:24 am

    Yay, Labbit! I agree, it’s so instructive to listen to these programs again at various times in our lives / relationship stages. Seems like I hear all kinds of stuff I wasn’t ready or able to hear before.

  81.  #81Cutie on January 21, 2015 at 10:35 am

    Indigo, if I may, I wanted to respond to your post about D and his emotional withdrawals and tantrums. It’s so interesting thinking about this from a feminine-masculine perspective.

    As the feminine partner, I imagine you’re doing exactly the right thing by simply leaning back and walking away, using feeling messages and don’t wants, whenever D begins closing the door on intimacy in his own particular ways (tantrums, going cold, etc).

    If it were me (and my guy, like any human being, does shut down and seem cold now and again, so I’m going to try to remember this at those times), I would like to believe I would say something like:

    “This feels awful. I don’t want to be talked to that way / I don’t want to hang around somebody who’s in such a bad mood. I’m going to go read / go out for coffee / whatever. I know you’ll figure this out and feel better soon, and I hope you know I AM here for you. I love you.”

    Hmm, I don’t feel altogether confident about this script for men and their tantrums/bad moods/shut-down times. But something along those lines.

  82.  #82Labbit on January 21, 2015 at 10:38 am

    78 Gemini Goddess — Hee! Nothing wrong with that. 🙂

  83.  #83Azure Blu on January 21, 2015 at 10:45 am

    Cutie #65… love what you shared here!!

    “And I am noticing how much easier it feels
    to NOT think about my guy
    when I feel happy,
    cared for
    and secure in our relationship.”
    That is what I found in the 1 relationship where I was loved, cherished, and adored.
    “Fortunately, that feeling of insecurity
    is becoming less frequent
    as I get a handle on speaking up
    whenever I start to feel that way.
    He is quick to comfort me
    and make me feel better right away. “

  84.  #84Gemini Goddess on January 21, 2015 at 10:50 am


    Thinking of everything always as being imaginary feels “defensive” and cold to me (in my case). It feels protective and not letting anything mean TOO much, holding things at TOO much of a distance. I’m tired of it. Tired of participating in “action” but not investing in heart. I’m trying NOT to be defensive and overly protective and closed. My bucket list from three years ago (pre RR) includes “To marry for love and actually invest myself emotionally”. My marriage was a totally imaginary relationship, and NOT his fault. I don’t know if that makes any sense…even to me.

  85.  #85Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 11:07 am

    Cutie 80,

    I honestly think the way you have described is the absolute PERFECT way to handle it.

    Unfortunately I didn’t quite handle his latest meltdown as well as that. I started off well, and then I froze to the spot and really just wanted to “fix” it and be reassuring and calm things down. BUT I did get the “I love you, I know you’ll figure this out, I am here for you” part. And I did eventually walk away. I feel a little bit responsible for setting him off too, but I am NOT blaming myself, just noticing. I think I will handle it better next time.

    Thank you x

  86.  #86Femininewoman on January 21, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    Yep!! Reconnect is it for me too.

  87.  #87Femininewoman on January 21, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    Cutie that script seems long to me. I would choose to say this feels awful and just let him know where I am so if he decides to contact me when he calms down he knows where I am. Then leave.

  88.  #88Azure Blu on January 21, 2015 at 1:04 pm

    Indigo #80…
    Wow… sounds VERY Sireny to me…
    I agree… I like to take a look and give myself credit where I was a Siren
    and then visualize how I would do it differently the next time…

  89.  #89Lovergirl on January 21, 2015 at 1:40 pm

    I am feeling curious- is it bad to be seen as “passive” as a woman? Last night my guy made a comment where he called me “passive”. Is there such a thing as leaning back too much? Would that earn the passive title? Do men like that or is being TOO passive a bad thing?

  90.  #90Andrea on January 21, 2015 at 3:21 pm

    Victoria # 57, ah… oh I have to thank you for your question just so I can go back and fantasize that sex again!!
    mmmmm.. no I don’t regret having sex with him too soon.
    But the little things I beat myself up for are the little lies that I told him, the times when I wasn’t really available and I told him I was, the times I didn’t really want to put him first but I told him I did, the times I drove to the hotel and picked him up at 3 in the morning just because he asked me to and told me that he just wanted to be with me, the times he told me he was worth more than being a man who was just one of the many that I date, and I admitted to him that I wasn’t seeing anybody else right now.

    The text I sent him after the best love making session I’ve probably ever had, telling him all that was in my heart, all that I was feeling for him, all that I hoped for the future with him… as I was remembering his whispering about how he wanted me to move to his city and be with him and his sons at their football games and how he only wanted me, just me, just me…

    And I regret that because he hasn’t responded at all, not for nine days.

    I made everything so easy for him, so convenient for him, so nice for him. I wasn’t honest in the times I didn’t really want to be available. Sure I wanted to see him but I bent over backward to change my schedule and my life so that I could.

    That’s what makes me feel… mistakes… Not mistakes toward him. I don’t count them mistakes because I’m not getting the results I want; I count them mistakes because I let myself down, I twisted myself around, I compromised myself and who cares what the results are for him, I didn’t feel good when I was doing that. I didn’t feel all the way present. I felt myself turning against myself and I didn’t stop it.

    But, seeing that, I feel strengthened. I feel his going away from me is giving me such a great opportunity to reset, to renew my vows to myself.

    This time around I’m not calling him at all. I’m not pining in that “I miss him so much, he’s the answer to my life.” type of way. I’m giving him his space. Energetically. (He’s taken his space physically. That’s what lets me know that it is what he wants. And I do trust that man to figure and to know exactly what he wants. When and if he wants me it will be a thrill, but I’ll know it’s exactly what he wants, because he’ll come and get me.)

    Anyway, jeesh….. the whole… not thinking about him when he’s not here just went out the window huh. : )

    Yes, I love that we’ve collectively come to the conclusion that that is an ideal. Who said it? Progress, not perfection? I love it!

  91.  #91Radlove on January 21, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    I feel chronically confuzzled as to what is a healthy boundary of what is a worthwhile friendship to hang on to and what is not. I wrote this poem in 1990 and it seems right but sometimes it doesn’t…

    Go Ahead, Break My Heart

    Step into my heart; see what you find I offer all I’ve got, so please be kind I open the drawbridge; here is the key What you are seeing now is the real me

    I make myself vulnerable; I’m fragile and tender Inside I’m a child, and I’m weak at the center I’ve stored lots of love up to give it away I need to be loved, what more can I say?

    I open up my heart; you hand it back in pieces This pain never ends; this heartache never ceases I slam shut the drawbridge, snatch back the key The trust I offered you again will never be

    I will build a wall and say forget it all

    Inside the wall of me, I am safe and secure You cannot reach me here; I am hidden and obscure I am a self-sustaining castle, unreachable by pain Loneliness is my only companion; fear is my only gain

    Better to love and lose again, you see, Than to suffer alone endlessly When you give away something as precious as love It’s never for nothing in the eyes from above

    The best things in life are free, but they cost a lot Things like wisdom and love can’t be bought Opposites go in pairs, wisdom and mistakes Can’t have one without the other – love and heartaches

    To say love is bliss is to say humans are flawless Next time I open up my heart, I’ll still be reckless and lawless I will pour out my love with the carefree ardor Of a waterfall smashing down on the rocks, like a martyr

    Step into my heart; see what you find I offer all I’ve got, so please be kind I open the drawbridge; here is the key What you are seeing now is the real me

    I make myself vulnerable; I’m fragile and tender Inside I’m a child, and I’m weak at the center I’ve stored lots of love up to give it away I need to be loved, what more can I say?

  92.  #92Olivia on January 21, 2015 at 5:27 pm

    Feeling bummed out about my girlfriends who are making glaring mistakes with their men
    I see my friend’s husband cringing when she nags him
    I see him simmering with rage and I feel for him and that I feel awful
    I don’t want them to get divorced
    I feel like a know-it-all
    But I feel that I know I am right! Rori is the way!
    But can that be true? Maybe it’s not —
    Maybe I’m like a crazy prosletizer on the subway train
    Jesus is the only way etc etc
    I love my girlfriends and I want to be happy
    I know they could have men at their feet if they Rori-d
    I feel bummed and smarted they don’t want my advice and think I’m a know-it-all (two told me this recently in so many words)
    I apologized and said I would try to listen better


  93.  #93Beloved on January 21, 2015 at 5:54 pm

    Oh, I need some coaching and so can not afford it right now!!!!!!
    Date #2 with AviatorCD.
    So, his divorce was JUST final and his wife moved out of state a week ago. Apparently we had a date while he was in the midst of helping her pack. From what I understand, it was amicable, a long time coming, they are friends. Everything else he says and the way he acts is congruent and just enough time to give a brief overview of the situation was spent talking about her.
    So, I get, he’s not really available for relationship…I am keeping him in rotation for now.

    But, tonight, he said, hey, you mentioned some movies, how about we get together one night next week and watch some of those movies you were talking about and I can maybe show you some documentaries I really like?
    So I said, sure..do you want to set a date now?
    He said yes, so we did.
    And after, I started feeling weird.
    I feel uncertain whether asking about setting the date was leaning forward.
    Also, I don’t feel comfortable going to his house.
    I don’t feel comfortable asking what his expectations are outright, because he barely has even hugged me.
    Conversation was very cerebral, no comments on my appearance or anything to make me feel like he was checking me out.
    The hugs, even were kind of stiff.
    It feels very “friend” vibe, which I’m actually ok with.
    I don’t feel comfortable going to his place and I will tell him that later.

    What I don’t know is…what the h3ll do I do after date 2? Do I expect a man to keep asking me out? Is it too soon to have him over to my place? Is it too soon to be so casual?
    I guess, I don’t feel I should expect him to court me since he isn’t really in that mode right now.
    So..I don’t know.

    Really, the main things I want to know are…what happens after date 2? Because I haven’t ever formally dated anyone, it’s all been straight to hanging out at each others’ places right away, and, I especially haven’t made it past date 2 since practicing the Siren way.

  94.  #94Beloved on January 21, 2015 at 6:41 pm

    Oh, and update on my housemate situation.
    I called him today to ask whether I could start moving in this weekend, and he started telling me all of the things he had done to get my room ready. He put in a desk, a couple of new rugs…he put the desk by the window because he imagined I might like to look out through the window while I’m at the desk. He was asking where I would like the bed and running through all of the ways he thought it could be arranged that would make me happy. OMG, I felt so cared for.

    Also, I dusted off Love Scripts for Dating and just in time, when AviatorCD asked the other day about meeting up today, I did what Rori suggested, I said, “Oh, I feel like eating something really fresh.” I had a certain place in mind, and wouldn’t you know, he suggested the exact place and found a location close to school so I could meet him after 🙂

  95.  #95IamHis on January 21, 2015 at 7:31 pm

    I have two coffee dates this week with two different guys. I feel embarrassed because this hardly ever happens without me having to majorly put myself out there by flirting on dating websites.

    I met both of these guys in real life and that feels good. I actually have a third date with a third guy pending.

    I feel kind of annoyed because I’m not sure what I did to bring in these men. I feel a little skeptical. I wish I could feel excited…

  96.  #96lovetodance on January 21, 2015 at 8:28 pm


    you’re just a natural….. sounds like it to me….

    integrating and absorbing all this material brewed with who you just naturally beautifully are….

    enjoy yourself lovely siren!

  97.  #97Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 9:07 pm

    Beloved 92,

    I would say date 2 is still really early, so yes continue being a siren and a goddess and continue letting him ask you out. I feel this should continue, with him pursuing and initiating, and me, the feminine, responding only for at least two months. For me, at that point, it feels ok to experiment with a little, a very little, initiating. But really, just being in your feminine can go on for as long as you want.

    I do know what you mean about the date feeling cerebral and kind of a stiff vibe. That is kind of how I felt about the guy I went out to dinner with on Monday night. I could see he liked me, and he was very gentlemanly in the sense of doing all the “right” things – but he talked a lot, A LOT about work, and his achievements, and how much money he’s made, which could have been to impress me but it felt more like rattling off a resume to a potential employer. He talked quite a bit about his failed past relationships, and he’d had such insanely bad luck (TWO of his ex-girlfriends had run off with and been impregnated by two guys who were actually brothers) that I just kinda listened with morbid fascination, and then he talked about a woman he’d gone out with on the dating site, and that made me feel very weird, and kind of like his therapist, and I found myself thinking, “why did you do that?” It just made me feel no juicy of real emotional connection to him at all. He’s texted me a couple of times since then, just blah stuff like “Have a great day” and I just feel kind of blah about it.

  98.  #98Indigo on January 21, 2015 at 9:12 pm

    The guy I had coffee with on Friday night is supposed to be taking me out to dinner on Monday night.

    And another guy from the dating site contacted me and has been chatting to me and I gave him my personal email address. He seems gorgeous from his picture and he said he’s looking for a serious relationship and to settle down into something permanent, and his emails are actually very sweet and interested in me, and just come across as honest and sincere. He wants to meet me soon.

    Yay for CDing. And yay for learning about ourselves.

  99.  #99Victoria on January 22, 2015 at 12:23 am

    Indigo 60,
    You know this is the first time I anticipated his pull back and acted adequately. And, we have been dating for 3 years or so, so speak about being a slow learner :-).
    I mean, I kind of figured out his pull back “schedule” quite a while ago, but it was my reaction which was inadequate. I tried to chase him, pull him to me, not let him withdraw, get upset, throw a fit, break up with him.
    Now I see this has been just a huge misunderstanding between us, and now that I know for sure (with the help of RorI) that he just needs to do it, and as predicatbly he will come back, it is so much better for me.
    After he did not call me a second time today, and made no arrangement for me, last night, at 2 am he has written the sweetest love letter to me ( I saw it this morning). And, he is asking to see me today. He actually asked when he could see me, which is a little bit off again, because I would rather have him plan a date and just offer everything set up, so that I can just say yes. At the same time, I can totally see how predicably he is coming back to be with his masculine energy. I am absolutely delighted. I can totally see how it is absolutely correct that a relationship can be transformed overnight. I used to worry that because I chased him and overfunction in the past, this is a sin which will hang over our relationship forever, and I will keep beating myself over how stupid I have been to have made so many mistakes.
    Now, I feel so relieved, so at ease. Unbelievable.

  100.  #100Victoria on January 22, 2015 at 12:25 am

    Correction to second paragraph: “yesteday” not “today”.

  101.  #101Victoria on January 22, 2015 at 12:33 am

    Andrea 90,
    I so love how you write.
    And I can fully relate to what you say.
    I also bend myself backwards in order to be with him. I am chemically dependent on the brain current changes that he causes in me. The chemistry is so difficult to be overruled by will and even by self-love.
    The only way the chemistry will wear out is with time.
    And other distracting activities, of course.

  102.  #102Labbit on January 22, 2015 at 4:04 am

    94 IamHis — I feel it’s very normal that as we undo old patterns, our mind will start screaming negative things at us. It’s a weird way of protecting us…if you can’t muster up the excitement in your brain, try settling into your body instead. Feel the calm, the excitement and tingles that come along with knowing you have dates lined up! In time your brain will quiet down.

  103.  #103Moon on January 22, 2015 at 9:44 am


    I truly love the way you write and I’m so thankful for your words. I’ve read your post over and over trying to print it in my heart.
    After sinkin into my feelings I don’t feel angry anymore. Now I feel just sad. But I feel is a “good” sadness, the sadness that comes from giving up and accepting reality as it is.
    I’m also very thankful for this blog, I’ve been reading it for a while and has been very helpful for me.



  104.  #104Lovergirl on January 22, 2015 at 9:51 am

    I feel detached. I just went and had sex with a guy that lives around the corner from me. We’ve slept together several times, so its not new, but he is nothing more than a very casual sex partner. He’s nice enough but he didn’t even kiss me once. No cuddling. He has a vasectomy, which is a plus, and he’s good in bed, its just that I feel nothing for him. I went, had sex with him, got dressed and left. It’s all kind of cold. Not sure I can count that as circular dating. :p Some of the other times I have been with him, he has been more affectionate.

    Now I feel worried. Worried that my being with other men will detract from what I have with the guy I like. Worried that he will ask me who I have slept with and I will feel like I should answer honestly. (He asks stuff like that, since he knows we aren’t exclusive). Worried that will push HIM away.

    I’m also feeling a little bit detached from HIM. He hasn’t contacted me since we had sex on Tues night, other than a text responding to my thank you for inviting me over text and an email that he forwarded to me yesterday about work stuff. Both of those he was positive and excited seeming so I don’t feel like anything is wrong between us, but he does seem to have pulled away a bit.

    For a long time, he would call me every night and want to talk for about an hour. He hasn’t been doing that the past week or so, and I feel afraid that he is trying to dial down our relationship to just a cold fuck buddy thing, like what I have with this other guy. He made a comment when I left his place the other night that he would see me “next week”…as though it would be a whole week between visits (normally I see him at least a couple times a week). Then he retracted and said he may go to this party with me on Sat. but he’s not sure yet.

    I am supposed to go to his place to do work later but he won’t be there. We will have to have SOME communication via text but I am really hoping he isn’t trying to keep it to that. I hate when men pull away. 🙁

  105.  #105Lovergirl on January 22, 2015 at 9:53 am

    I feel curious as to why my last comment went into moderation?

  106.  #106Mandy on January 22, 2015 at 12:18 pm

    I feel very triggered by a dream I had. The dream was about J being out and gone partying and me waiting two days for him to get back, and he cams back saying how much fun he had with some women. It was just a dream, but the feeling were and are real, and I know what it is about.

    I realize to me, when he looks at other women, and i’m not in my most Sireny position, I feel like he ignores me and gives all his attention to other women’s bodies, etc.

    He’s compliment-challenge when it comes to his beloved. He has this agenda of not letting his beloved slip away, by her getting too big a head and realizing she deserves better (oddly enough!) He has a huge mental block there. Dominique and I are working on it, so no worries, but there is that hinge.

    Recently though he started implementing me. He loves my new haircut and I put on this vest of his for a Themed photo shoot (roaring 20’s, I’m putting on a guy’s outfit with the fedora and vest, a bit of a sexy bend there), and he said I looked super cute in it.

    I have to allow those comments to come inside myself. Usually, I notice I deflect compliments. I only just noticed this. I am so not an arrogant person, I am humble as can be. Perhaps he doesn’t like complimenting someone who he does’t feel is appreciative of it.

    Interesting lesson there. When I feel weird though, I immediately FLIRT….SO…I’m going to OKCupid now…not to spite him, just to remind myself of who’s out there, and maybe get a better idea of other possibilities/learn some more lessons.

    Hope I can learn to keep that yummy feeling! When I keep up on my Siren training (hehe), I sure do have it…through and through…using ALL the tools…

  107.  #107Azure Blu on January 22, 2015 at 12:19 pm

    Indigo #97
    Yay!!! all this sounds like so much fun!

  108.  #108Mandy on January 22, 2015 at 12:21 pm

    Oh my goodness there are so many typos in that last message – the word wasn’t implimenting, it was complimenting, and the other word wasn’t hinge it was something else…

    Ah, fooey! 😛

  109.  #109Mandy on January 22, 2015 at 12:47 pm

    Hehe! I feel so FREEE and WEEEEEEE when I flirt!


  110.  #110Cutie on January 22, 2015 at 12:52 pm

    Oh, Andrea, that is some POWERFUL awareness you’ve got going on there … thank you for sharing.

    Indigo, I wanted to say how wonderful it is that you’re baby-stepping toward dealing with D’s shutdowns in the way that feels best and right for you and best for the relationship. I also feel thrilled that you are CDing right now!

    Feminine Woman, thank you for your feedback on my “men and their moods” script. I would feel so confident if I could simply say, “This feels awful, I’m going to go read.” Then walk away. And NOT sit and stew about why he’s in a bad mood and how I can cheer him up OR let his bad mood bring MY mood down. I can totally see how high value that would be!

    IAmHis, I have followed your posts, and I feel so happy seeing you actively searching for the messages each of these men are here to bring you (free therapy). That is the perfect CD attitude to have!!

  111.  #111Millie on January 22, 2015 at 1:21 pm


    After reading your post on date 2, I have to agree that keep him courting. Even if your thinking you see him on more of a friends level. In my opinion, I don’t think asking about setting an actual date is leaning forward at all. I do think there is an ebb and flow to making plans, let him initiate, and responding with a question is fine. I feel like it can become a guessing game otherwise…

    Regarding watching a movie at his house for the second date, depends how comfortable you are with your boundaries, but it sounds you like you don’t want to do that. What about suggesting you’d feel more relaxed going to see a movie? Or show excitement about one that’s out in the theatre and ask him what he thinks? Maybe that would help transition the location.

    As far as being unavailable, I think that also depends on what you want and your relationship goals, and if you are willing to just be spend time with him as he is…

    Anyway, hope hearing from someone else helps!

  112.  #112Dixie on January 22, 2015 at 5:31 pm


    Just a little vent here. I’m feeling overwhelmed with a lot of work these weeks and tonight, even though I’ve been feeling so glowy and optimistic recently, I’m just feeling shoulder slumpy and in need of all sorts of softness and TLC. I’m in a marshmallow phase, lol. I wish I could reach out to D, but I’m not going to.

    I’ve been reading here, feeling inspired by all the step you are taking.

    Mandy – you sound so much stronger on the inside these days. Just from reading your posts, it’s amazing to see the subtle shifts in your relationship with J.

    Andrea 90- sometimes I read your posts and inside, I say, “OH! I recognize those feelings!” Yes, making it too easy for someone we care for… that’s been on my mind. I really love how you are using the space to “renew [your] vows to [yourself]”

    On some level, my sireny muscles are stronger than they were before – seeing some “definition” in my ability to focus on myself, and just breathe, and not get so wound up anymore. But this last reconnection with D. has triggered me in a way I didn’t expect. He says he loves me, calls me his girl, but he’s not here in the way that feels…, well, he’s not here, lol!

    My ex-husband and I spoke today, out of the blue, and shared a couple of laughs, and it felt funny to me that I have no feelings for him anymore than I would for an old acquaintance. It wasn’t a bad feeling. We were laughing at a couple of deja vu moments we’ve both had recently, and when the conversation ended, I could feel so much relief and satisfaction that we are not together, and relief and satisfaction that my heart has definitely healed from that relationship.

    Reading the above letter reminded me of so much pain during our marriage and even during the separation because of the third party. To some extent, even the memory of that betrayal feels like it felt some scars on me. I’m no longer in pain, but sometimes, something triggers me and I wonder if my optimistic little girl-self is being blind and naïve.

    Well, this is a ramble for sure! I’m just missing my Mr.’s arms around me – whoever that turns out to be- and I always feels so much calmer after a visit to these boards 🙂

  113.  #113Dixie on January 22, 2015 at 5:34 pm

    “left some scars”, I meant to type 🙂

    Funny, after just typing it all out here, just knowing that I will be heard and supported, makes me feels lighter and more relaxed.

  114.  #114Beloved on January 22, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Thank you Millie and Indigo.
    I intend to call him in a few days and tell him I don’t feel comfortable coming to his house. I don’t feel up for it right now, I’m doing homework and packing to move this weekend 😀

    My date with another CD fell through tonight and I feel happy and relieved to be here packing here instead. I feel a little sad, looking over at the gift he bought for me on our date Sunday and remembering the sweet feelings I felt then. So good. And I feel sad, because I won’t see him again (he stood me up).
    Which is kind of funny, as I type it out, because…he stood me up, lol. So, actually, now that I look at it like that, I kind of feel happy that I won’t see him again 🙂 Why would I want to see a stander upper and can’t-plan-a-simple-Starbucks date-r?

    Hahaha that makes me giggle and feel lighter 😀
    Much love to y’all, I appreciate the support as always <3

  115.  #115Dixie on January 22, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Last thing: (sorry for rambling so much tonight!)

    I just re-read Rori’s response above and… wow. It just stood out for me in a way it hadn’t before:

    “We allow ourselves to consider a few good times and days together, and a lot of phone conversations to be “a relationship. We make it all “mean” something. And it doesn’t. It doesn’t mean anything. It just “is” an experience.

    The thing to look at is –

    “What part of this am I choosing to make meaning out of? What part of this am I lending my energy to?
    What part of this am I entertaining? What part of this am I “feeding”?

    And this last gem: Why are you focusing on a man who isn’t already with you?

    Ohhh, lots of recognition happening right now.

  116.  #116Andrea on January 22, 2015 at 6:35 pm

    I feel lonely? Is that really true?
    I feel bored. I feel a little procrastination type boredom. There are tons of writing projects I could be working on but I don’t feel inspired to start tonight.
    How does that translate to “lonely” ?

    After my day of classes I went to a poetry reading at our Irish Pub. I brought my youngest daughter and her friend along. It felt so wonderful having her see me on stage.
    I shared some of my poetry and I felt elated with the audience response and in good company with all of the poets surrounding me.

    An old CD noticed me. He asked if he could buy me a drink. ( I don’t drink around my daughters) Instead he secretly paid for all of our meals. I felt so giddy happy!! I just felt so joyful being there with my daughter and letting her see how men treat a siren.

    Again, I didn’t do anything…. to get him to notice me. He came to me. He backed away seeing I was there with my daughter. He paid.. to get my attention. I hugged him on the way out the door and just gushed how good it felt to be taken care of like that.

    I knew that I could drop my daughter off at home and go back down to the pub and hang out with him and drink all night if I wanted to. But I don’t want to.

    I don’t want to drink…. with a man…. get drunk…. and feel regrets the next morning. Mix feelings with alcohol and sex and who knows what.

    So I am home, riffing.

    A part of me whines: I wish RRguy would call me. I feel longing for him.
    The feelings ask: What is this really? What would RRguy solve?

    I feel a longing for right now, quick fix, abandonment, to drink the night away and who cares about tomorrow. I feel solid in not going that route, but feel child like tantrum like… wah! I deserve a little bit of fun.

    And I do. Just not that way. The poetry reading was incredible, but I know I will feel so much better in the morning if I stay home.

    The old CD was so nice, but I absolutely know why I stopped seeing him.

    What is a truer feeling statement than I feel lonely?
    I feel in transition. I feel like mamma bear, gently but firmly nudging me to remember how good it feels to take care of myself physically and emotionally. I feel grateful for the men who always seem to show up to care for me. What a wonderful reminder that I can accept that gift and I don’t owe Old CD anything.

    I feel … hmmmmmm….. what can I do to take care of myself even further. I feel like sorting through my hall closet and vaccumming. I think I’ll feel great when my closet is organized and my carpets are fresh again.

    Funny…. I feel resolved.

  117.  #117lovetodance on January 22, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    i feel feelings of completeness reading your last post andrea…

    i feel you are taking such good care of yourself and that your siren-ness is so big and sparkling…

    maybe even when you aren’t even aware that it is

    and good for you for doing a poetry reading…so wonderful to put yourself out there like that!
    rock on rock on rock on!

  118.  #118Indigo on January 22, 2015 at 8:55 pm

    Thank you Cutie & Azure Blu 🙂


    Are you Circular Dating? I’m just finding it so essential when a man is not there with you in the way you want him to be with the amount of time you want him to be. Just being open to your world. I felt momentarily – Wednesday and a bit of yesterday – wallowing in my feelings a bit, but now I have a renewed confidence to lean back and see what the world has to offer.

  119.  #119Indigo on January 22, 2015 at 8:58 pm

    I feel so proud of myself. A guy off the dating site wanted to meet me, and invited me to a music concert on Saturday night. I asked him to send me the concert info and when I saw the entrance fee I said “Ooh, I feel weird. I am saving every spare penny because I am buying a flat and the entrance fee is a bit expensive.”

    He apologized for putting me on the spot and offered to come out to my neck of the woods instead and meet me for coffee. Hm. I’m glad I spoke my truth.

  120.  #120IamHis on January 22, 2015 at 8:59 pm

    New thread up! 🙂

  121.  #121Indigo on January 22, 2015 at 9:08 pm

    Andrea, a poetry reading at an Irish pub.. *swoon*!

    I feel a beautiful feeling since the start of the year – like being on the beach, or more accurately, standing on the prow of a yacht as it’s out to sea, the ocean calm and flat and turquoise blue, the water lapping gently at the boat, and me looking out onto the horizon, looking back at the people and the restaurants and the buildings on the city skyline back on the shore. And I am out at sea, sailing along on this yacht, a delicious cool breeze in my face, and the sun caressing my skin. I feel so light and carefree, I feel like there are clear skies and I feel giddy from how happy my life is. I feel like the cool, calming ocean breeze is inside me. I feel like I’m on holiday, even though I am living my ordinary life. It is a wonderful feeling, everything has just taken on a new enjoyment and a new glow, even things that felt a bit unpleasant before. It’s a wonderful feeling, and I just wanted to share it with the Sirens.

  122.  #122Rori Raye on January 23, 2015 at 12:05 am

    Olivia, Have you thought about becoming a professional coach? You sound like a natural! In RRRCT I teach my “6 Elements” way to coach that pretty much insures your girlfriends and clients won’t resist you, that makes them feel heard, and allows you to sneak in the “help” without sounding in any way like a “know-it-all…” Go to “Be A Rori Raye Coach” page in the sidebar, and email Melanie…Love, Rori

  123.  #123Millie on January 23, 2015 at 1:26 am

    Andrea great post 🙂

  124.  #124Femininewoman on January 23, 2015 at 10:22 am

    Really Indigo. That means you were expected to accept his invitation and pay?

  125.  #125Lovergirl on January 23, 2015 at 10:34 am

    I was wondering that too Indigo- usually if a guy invites me someplace, I just assume he is paying. If he was asking me to I’d feel weird about it.

  126.  #126Indigo on January 23, 2015 at 11:47 am

    FW & Lovergirl,

    He didn’t make it clear the first time around – when he told me about the entrance fee I assumed it was because he expected me to pay for myself. Obviously I wasn’t going to do that if it’s a first date which is why I sent him that message. He later came back and said he actually would have been happy to pay for me but that he understood if I would maybe rather meet for coffee for a first meeting. As I searched my feelings I realized that a music concert did feel a bit heavy for me for a first meeting and that I’d prefer to meet for coffee first! I thanked him and said that it’d feel good to do another time.

  127.  #127Indigo on January 23, 2015 at 11:48 am

    The upshot of it is that he is driving to me, we are going for coffee and he is paying 🙂

  128.  #128Azure Blu on January 23, 2015 at 12:08 pm

    I can see how you worked through this new CD with all the brilliance of the True Siren you are!!
    Brava!!! :-))
    you hung in there and were flexible and yet held your boundaries… shared your feelings…
    Sooo luvly!

    Indigo #121
    Ahhhh….. I feel soooo happy for you when i read this:
    “I feel like I’m on holiday, even though I am living my ordinary life. It is a wonderful feeling,”
    Very inspiring!!!

  129.  #129Kristi Kay on January 23, 2015 at 12:12 pm

    Oh My! This was a much needed post for me 7 years ago! lol I was that girl who invested the works to a guy who was only putting his foot in the door to keep me around. I married that man…

    It of course lead me to learning all the mistakes and now being one of Rori’s coaches! However, it was tough doing so much to have this man. I wanted what I wanted and didn’t care what it took to keep him.

    I got what I wanted, but I paid a heavy price for it. My dignity and self-respect. I wanted to control the outcome so badly that I kept selling my heart to the devil.

    This man had no respect for me. And he never would. Not in all the ways that counted.

    I feel for Alice and I totally hear this struggle.
    What price are you willing to pay to control the outcome? Even if you have him in grasp, do you really have him in heart?

    The four rules of Rori’s are priceless ladies!

    Sending you all light and love!

  130.  #130Rori Raye on January 23, 2015 at 4:14 pm

    Kristi! All, Kristi is an AWESOME coach! Love, Rori

  131.  #131Lotus on January 23, 2015 at 4:21 pm

    Wow, catch up time again. I feel almost envious and bad I feel envious when I read the expressions on here. I love the way the sirens write in such a raw expressive way, just jumping for joy and not held back. Yee-hah! (And poo-poo to me for putting myself down….)

    Labbit 61
    I loved this! It triggered warmth in my heart for you. :))

    “On the imaginary vs real topic: until TenderCD and I went exclusive in late December, I didn’t think of our relationship as real either. A couple of weeks ago while at dinner our waitress asked us how long we’d been together and I told her “Since about December 21st.” And then she gushed about how in love we seemed for such a new couple while TenderCD shot me this really funny, confused look. He asked me about it when the waitress walked away. I shared “Everything before then was great fun but it was also kind of like the application process. How smart a man you were to see if we clicked before putting the idea of marriage out there. Now the REAL FUN has begun.” He loved it! Now he tells everyone about how brilliant he is for waiting before even mentioning the m-word and making us an exclusive couple. ”

    Andrea 90 – I see you were brave and opened your heart and gushed with RRguy. I think you’re very naturally siren-y and expressive. I think I’m quite good at not voicing my feelings… love the words you used in the last post.. ‘elated’ being one. Thanks for sending me the Sam Smith song that time… I just lurve his music, so deep and soulful.

    I too felt a lot of things with DP and really followed the leaning back and didn’t express to him, sometimes I wish I did, all the good feelings, as he was being romantic and tender with me. I felt very desired and it felt so good. I wish I told him, just so we could’ve built on those moments, yet I was afraid to open up. I didn’t know what was happening to us, but it felt that we were falling in love together. I know it was just moments, being in the now, and they felt wonderful, I drank them up for a good while after it ended. My body and hormones held on for a good while.

    Indigo 98 – your date reminded me of mine last week, who rattled off tale after tale, all fascinating stuff about his family lineage, he’s in a band off-peak and engineer by day… tons of energy. And I felt myself leaning forward feeling fascinated and he was leaning back storytelling, and then I leaned back to centre myself, only to find I felt stupid as the chair was really deep, and I wasn’t long enough and I felt too loungey. Then I realised it was all getting intense with his nervous energy and I had to make him stop…. so i told him ‘I feel as though you’ve presented me a book of 500 stories and you’re going through them too fast…. I need to slow down… sorry.’ Then he leaned way back and apologised and asked me to tell him my last amazing adventure. I felt pressured to share and rambled a bit. So feel blah. Worse bit was when he excused himself to go to the toilet, he said ‘Sorry I have to leave you again, but it goes straight through me’ … unfortunately he had walked past before I could say ‘Too much information!’…

  132.  #132Lotus on January 23, 2015 at 4:26 pm

    Dixie – 112
    Wow… reading your post… I feel you are massive steps ahead of me. Reading about your ex-h… I can relate to the process. When I feel pain, I remember my little girl, and I ask how she is, and soothe her. Of course she is naive, she is a little girl, wanting love, remember we can give her love, and try to teach her the ways.

    I too have been missing the arms of whomever.. however recently my body has been missing my H’s arms.. I know I don’t want him in my bed. If only I could have it virtually so that my brain makes it feel real, and that there are no consequences. Sometimes I imagine I’m looking at his face, and we feel peaceful holding hands.. yet I am triggered by his betrayal, and my belief that things wont change until he changes.

  133.  #133lovetodance on January 23, 2015 at 7:11 pm

    130 rori

    i couldn’t agree more rori!

    i have been working with kristi on and off for the last couple of months…

    she is soooo there, soooo present and soooo smart…

    i have done alot of therapy in my life, was trained as a psycho-therapist….and kristi in just not that many sessions has zeroed in a most graceful way to where the work needs to be done with me….

    she is powerful and highly recommend her to any of the sirens!

    so glad rori you posted that affirmation! compelled to chime in!

  134.  #134Olivia on January 24, 2015 at 8:38 am

    Wow thanks Rori! I have been thinking about it hard! Feels SO great to get a personal invite 🙂 And to hear that that is part of the coaching method – thanks!

  135.  #135Cutie on January 24, 2015 at 9:42 am

    I feel yucky. I’ve had a lashing-out relapse the past two evenings, and it has worked like a charm to create a whole bunch of emotional distance between me and a good man.

    I would feel so confident and womanly if I could learn to tolerate my feelings of discomfort, meditate on them, bring them here, script them out and remove anything that sounds like blame, memorize the script and THEN speak to him.

    I get to feeling so confident when I’m communicating well for a spell and then I assume I’ll just be able to wing it and be a “natural,” but the truth is, when it comes to big issues and charged topics (for me, sex is a charged topic) I still need to do the practice and the groundwork and the scripting.

    Instead, I just wanted to get an instant release from my anxiety and discomfort, so I just threw all my feelings and thought onto him in a jumble. This not only made for very muddy communication on my part, but the lack of forethought into what I was saying also meant that quite a few blame-filled, aggressive and critical statements came out, too. Yep, definite lash-out relapse for me.

    If anyone has made it this far in my post, I have a question. We have plans to go out to dinner and have a date night tonight, and I really feel like canceling those plans.

    I feel down and sad about the way I acted and the distance it created between us, and I feel afraid those down feelings in me will make it challenging for me to be warm and open and NOT shut down tonight.

    So, getting together this evening may end up making things worse, whereas taking a little space might feel healing and sort of clear the air.

    But I’m wondering if I should go with the date and just be as siren-y as possible, being quiet if I feel quiet and telling him, if he asks, that I feel sad about the past couple night, and I do feel happy to be together right now.

    It just sounds like a lot of effort. I don’t know if this is my subtle love-repelling pattern at work, making me think it’s a good idea to cancel plans with my guy … or if it’s my heart / intuition telling me that space would be healing.

    I would love to hear some feedback : )

    UPDATE: I just received a text from him saying he loves me and hopes I’m having a nice day and that he’ll come get me at 7 for dinner. Hmm, how can I shift my vibe so I’m not wallowing in shame and negativity by the time our date comes around?

  136.  #136Labbit on January 24, 2015 at 9:50 am


    I wouldn’t worry about shifting your vibe at all. Instead, sink into the feelings. Not the beating yourself up about falling back old into patterns feelings — but rather whatever’s underneath, sadness or anger or fear or whatever. Don’t deny them, don’t try to change them, and know that YOU WILL BE OK even if you let yourself sink into them. If you can, embrace them, love them. (And if you can’t that’s totally OK too…in that case just notice them and where they take you.)

    If you’re still feeling off when you see your man tonight don’t hide it. I think your plan to express yourself in feeling messages is awesome. Keep it about you — I feel really sad about how I acted the past couple of nights, and I do feel happy to be together right now.

    Everyone slips, everyone falls back into old habits, it does happen even to the most Rockstar-y Rockstar Sirens. If you punish yourself for it these habits will stick to you like glue. If you can allow yourself to simply notice it — huh, I’m falling back into old patterns…that’s interesting — and then go about your business as though it were just another moment, like a happy moment or a sad one or an exciting one or no different than anything else, you’ll be fine. It takes practice…and you are doing great!!!

    In times like this I’ll willfully shower myself with love. I love how this article by Dominique frames it:

  137.  #137Kristi Kay on January 24, 2015 at 10:00 am

    Thank you Rori!
    And thank you Lovetodance!! I feel honored to be a part of your journey to healing 🙂

    I love Labbit’s take on this. When I read your post, I sense a feeling of embarrassment. This is actually a beautifully vulnerable word because I’ve used it when I feel most sad about my past behavior. When my man tells me he notices I’m not happy, that feels sad. But a piece of me feels embarrassed.
    “Am I THAT transparent??” I think to myself. Then a sliver of me wants to get defensive even more. “YOU DON’T KNOW ME!” lol I feel an immediate attack even though he’s just making an observation. I have to come to terms with his honesty and respect the fact that he’s making effort to even communicate to me about something. He’s still leaning forward! YAY! I haven’t totally shielded myself.

    But if I didn’t make the conscious effort to really admit what was going on inside me… Defensiveness=embarrassment (For me), then I was denying a chance to embrace myself and honestly share with him what’s going on.

    Every time I use the word “embarrassed,” I cry. Because I’m actually letting out that feeling. I’m really FEELING it at that moment and boy does he just turn to me and scoop me up and rock me like I’m the most wonderful treasure he’s ever seen.

    This isn’t necessarily the go to for you if you don’t feel it. But it was an observation of mine that I felt I could relate to for imagery purposes 🙂

    Sending you strength and kindness for yourself.

  138.  #138Cutie on January 24, 2015 at 10:05 am

    Labbit, thank you. Your response feels like a soothing balm to me right now, when I need it the most. Yes, I am going to sink into my feelings — the shaking, thin-skinned feelings beneath the anger and coldness that I showed him. I don’t believe I give those frightened feelings very much attention, and they feel ashamed to exist.

    I love what you said about when I punish myself for falling back into old habits, those habits will stick to me like glue. What a great motivator to stop beating myself up!!

    Thank you for the link to Dominique’s article as well. I’m going to go read that today …


  139.  #139Cutie on January 24, 2015 at 10:15 am

    Wow, Kristi Kay, light-bulb moment! The word embarrassed is SO spot on for me here. And your statement that, for you, defensiveness equals embarrassment feels VERY deep and true and important for me, too. And it’s a connection I have never, ever made. Yes, “I feel embarrassed” is going to be a key tool / script for me. Do you find it diffuses the feelings of defensiveness when you say it?

  140.  #140Kristi Kay on January 24, 2015 at 10:18 am

    Oh yes!
    As soon as I say it, I feel myself soften up. It’s probably why he just scoops me up. “sops me up like a biscuit.” (lol lil southern humor).

    I totally feel diffused and it’s BEAUTIFUL!! You go girl!!

  141.  #141Cutie on January 24, 2015 at 10:35 am

    Wow, I feel chills from reading this! Some big-time clicking going on for me. And I adore the southern humor! Thank you so much for sharing, Kristi Kay! I feel very supported and inspired hearing from both you and Labbit … even though I’m accidentally posting on an old thread. Oops! So glad you ladies stopped in to help me!

  142.  #142Kristi Kay on January 24, 2015 at 10:57 am

    Thank you Cutie for bringing it up and being so brave to share.
    I have an audio about anger on my website. If you’re curious, click my name and it should send you to my website. 🙂

    Thank You Rori for teaching me all the goods to give to others.

    Olivia*** Think about it! if you want to talk more on it, shoot me an email.

  143.  #143Cutie on January 24, 2015 at 11:03 am

    Awesome, I will definitely do that! Thanks, Kristi Kay!

  144.  #144valerie on January 25, 2015 at 8:49 am

    Rori, made an important point. This lady needs to fall in LOVE with herself. All her actions stem from, in this case her lack of self love. She needs to take responsibility for who she allows in her life and thus her boundaries.
    I don’t blame the man.
    She ALLOWED this to happen to her and the first point of healing is in the admission of this and then she can take it from there. Get clear on what she really wants in a man and use as a benchmark for measuring any men that come in her life.

  145.  #145Ngah on January 27, 2015 at 12:36 am

    Alice. one thing you could do when you feel like calling him is think of how he much fun he is having with the other woman and how he is not thinking about at that very moment.

  146.  #146Marlowe on January 27, 2015 at 6:38 am

    Hi, new to this. Have been reading your newsletter and boy do I need help. Trying to get a job again. Not easy at 61. Story is … I have been with this man for 5 years. Was married last May. Thought we had all the wrinkles out but we don’t. Life was good until his son and two boys relocated here. At last minute he brought his ex-wife. He had been divorced from her for over a year citing abuse with the kids and drugs. He has custody of the kids. My life changed when they relocated here. That’s when it all started. His son’s ex comes across as a Drama Junkie and does nothing all day except drink coke and eat crackers and complain about how dire her health is. They stayed with us for 5 weeks while their rental got ready and I could only survive 10 days. Just think of your worst nightmare and that’s what it was… from 2 people to 6 and from 2 dogs to 5. I cleaned, cooked and did it all. I tried to explain that I needed help to my husband but it went on deaf ears. He didn’t want to hear it. He was in a complete daze, frozen on time, all he could think of was his son and grand kids. I kept asking him for help and it didn’t work. Then I told him I would leave and come back when they left… he didn’t have time to hear that. I left. You see he had been waiting for 35 years to be able to spend time with his son and Grand kids. and he said nothing was more important than them and building a good relationship. He thinks his son is golden and can do no wrong…I was dumped and swept under the carpet… Just the maid service as far as he was concerned.

    6 weeks later I came home and the spare room where his son and ex stayed smelled like a dog kennel… lots of pee. they never bothered to come back and clean it up. My husband didn’t say a word he just got a cleaner and cleaned it. He does not understand why I am upset… he feels like I- left- him- to- do- everything- and- it’s- ALL- my- fault. He says I abandoned him…. My friends think differently… Weeks later he still thinks it’s my fault… now I can’t say what I feel to him… he just blows up about it. I don’t seem to have any opinion…it’s all about him and what he wants…I just don’t seem to count. His son seemed like a nice person the times I saw him and when we visited him… Since he is back with his ex he is a different person. It’s a very stressful situation. I know I could use the Toxic tapes but what else would work the Scripts tapes too? help I worked for this yes too hard I need to do something before it’s gone…Most of my respect has left me. I feel very hurt and betrayed. I have not ever been treated this way… my last husband died and treated me like a queen… he stood up for me respected me and loved me. What is wrong with this guy???

  147.  #147Labbit on January 28, 2015 at 10:49 am

    299 Andrea — I think for you, the key will be learning to accept all of this as NORMAL. A guy wanting to give you everything and do everything for you? Normal. A guy wanting to spend all of his time with you? Normal. A man who wants to commit to you for life and make all of your dreams come true as he leads you up the bridge to happily ever after. NORMAL. Not special. Not a big deal. Happens to you all the time, lovely lady.

    The moment you pedestal a guy it’s over — not because of anything inside of you but because your energy, your behaviors will change. You’ll start acting like he’s the Prize but he’s not, YOU ARE. Right now for some reason I can tell you still don’t think you’re good enough to get forever love, that you have to suffer to get it, that you have to earn it some way. (And I can tell because umm, I have these same qualities!)

    Really really really the magic is in focusing on YOU. YOU are the only one who gets a pedestal. There is only first place and it belongs to Andrea. There ain’t no second or third. Men LOVE this. You need to start by accepting your own love — the Higher Andrea inside of you that keeps yelling NEWSFLASH ANDREA YOU’RE AWESOME. At every point of a relationship. You meet a guy? You’re awesome. You’re intimate with him? You’re awesome. He asks you for exclusivity? You’re awesome. And so on and so on.

    If I were you, I’d visualize myself up on a pedestal whatever that means to you. Maybe you’re an Olympian and your man places a medal on you and gives you flowers as the National Anthem plays. Maybe you’re a Greek Goddess and your man comes to leave tributes at your feet. Mine is a dream of being an Egyptian Goddess up on a stone table of soft rugs, surrounded by men cooling me with leaves, while men I’m attracted to walk by and try to catch my eye in increasingly desperate ways. Every time you catch yourself feeling like OMG this man likes me this is so scary and I have to do something to keep him, PEDESTAL yourself.

    It’s all about feeling strong inside so you can stay collected yet warm on the outside. It’s about treating every man like you like him but HE’S NO BIG DEAL. It’s about NEVER letting a man know that he’s won you over. You are a lifetime challenge for him and he will cherish every second of that.

    Some other tools that might help: waterwheel tool, the 100 men tool (I think this is in Reconnect Your Relationship?), out the window tool.

  148.  #148Tee on February 1, 2015 at 5:01 pm

    Ladies I’m back and I’d like some advice. First off, I’d like to say that I miss coming here. Ugh, I am so easily side tracked. Second, I finally have a coach that I’m working with. So cool and challenging but I feel so appreciative that these opportunities are available.

    My biggest challenge has been leaning back and letting my man just do what he wants.
    No complaining, no angry looks, no prying, etc. Mr. Man is a social butterfly (no cheating just one too many nights out) and feeling abandoned is a major trigger for me.

    Still, I held my ground and tried to feel my way through the ickyness. This is about me, this about me, this is about me.

    So 2 days ago out of the blue, he gives me a promotional credit card to use however I want. Definitely a first. I was like Cool thanks.

    Today he asks me if I bought anything with the card, I say No. He asks if I’m holding onto it for any reason, I say No, what do you have in mind. He mentions a restaurant, so I ask When did he wanna go? He said tomorrow.
    I say ok cool.

    So I feel weird. Hopeful. Stupid and excited.
    Weird because I feel myself keeping score, not sure if it’s an official date, did he ask me, did I volunteer without knowing, was that a lean forward or lean back, etc.

    Hopeful because this could be the start of new habits. Stupid because I feel like I’m just accepting scraps like a lost puppy. Excited because it’s a spontaneous outing, not valentine’s, not my birthday or his so there’s not that feeling of knowing he just feels obligated.

    I almost don’t know how to act. How do I go about encouraging this behavior?

  149.  #149Femininewoman on February 2, 2015 at 12:04 pm

    Hi Tee there is a new thread up while you were away.

    About the card, I wonder if he has financial challenges? A promotional card? He gives it to you to use how you want, then wants you to treat him to dinner for it? I would feel weird with that one too. I would just find a soft way to tell him. Maybe I’d wanna offer to give it back so he can use it on us instead.

  150.  #150Tee on February 2, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    #149, FW

    I only felt weird because we were having a discussion about it and I asked questions instead of just following his lead. At least I think that’s how it was supposed to go. I’m still trying to get the hang of leaning back with him lol

    Financial challenges? Yes I’d say so but mainly because he is impulsive. He assumed that when he gave me the card,I’d use it immediately. I don’t move quite that fast. There were a few things I could have purchased with it but since I was unsure, I held onto it.

    He said he was thinking about going to the restaurant and that’s when I started asking questions instead of just following his lead.
    I didn’t take it as He was trying to get Me to take him to lunch lol I just figured he must be including me in this or else way was he looking for feedback

    I took it as a sweet gesture of him giving it to me because he didn’t have to. I took his impulsiveness as also being typical of him, unfortunately, when he has extra money…he almost immediately wants to spend it having a good time.

    We had a good time. We went over the limit and he ended up paying cash anyway.
    I posed this question because I’m working with a coach, I’m trying to retrain 2 people here lol

    So I wanted to 1.) See if I was doing anything wrong and 2.) See if I could get feedback from you ladies on how to continue to inspire more of this type of behavior

    Mr. Man also gave me money this week too. Money is a trigger for me and as you can imagine from my statement about his impulsiveness, it’s an issue. So him being this financially generous has me curious and hopeful. He’s generous and great in other ways but like I said Money has been a challenge.

    I feel weird like I’m painting the wrong picture lol but whatever the case may be, it’s being worked on

  151.  #151marylight on February 27, 2015 at 12:04 pm

    I just discovered Psychopathfree.com. It had 30 red flags to look out for. I also bought the book because I liked the writers’ voice. There is so much amazingly good info that will make you feel so much better about yourself!