Are You Punishing Yourself Because You Want To Punish HIM?

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Reshi asked a great question – after doing some amazing work to get to the bottom of her feelings – the feelings and thoughts she found there were frightening (to read Reshi’s entire comment, go here->)

Here’s a bit of her comment:

“So I did a little Riff on that and came out with about the scariest thing that anyone could ever imagine – perhaps too scary for this blog? Rori, feel free to edit or delete this if it goes into that territory.

It came out – pretty much immediately when I started Riffing – that aside from being afraid that my husband will reject me, withdraw even more, turn cold, leave, and pursue other women in front of my face, I’m also afraid that he’ll turn EVIL. That he has nothing left for me deep down inside but contempt.

That he’ll slowly grow capable of beating me, raping me, killing me – or just leaving me at the mercy of someone else who would do those things to me – and then telling me it’s my fault.

I already knew there was a part of me deep down inside that wants to kill HIM for not giving me (or my Stranger) what I want… but this was even scarier.”

Here’s my answer:

Reshi – Thank you so much for your glorious post – I can’t thank you enough for sharing your deep, dark thoughts, feelings and images – This is not only how YOU and I heal – but how the world heals.

Have you noticed that as we are fearful, we not only demonize and stuff down the fearful images in our own heads and bodies – we try to shut those images down in the lives of other people?

This is control based on fear – and it is global and universal.  This is where social laws based on a need for “order” conflict with laws based on compassion, tolerance and civil rights.  This is – and has always been – playing out all over the world – and it starts within ourselves.

As we expand and grow, accept and love all aspects of ourselves, we grow and expand the world and the potential and possibilities for us all.

About the EVIL.  I have many personal stories around this – one I’ll tell in another post if it will help – and know that this elemental fear is coming from deep Trauma and Rage and Guilt , and the unconscious choice to prefer being the “victim” rather than the “perpetrator,” to prefer being powerless to having and wielding power – and that slowly, baby-step by baby-step, you can work through this.

We are so afraid that we will DO evil, because of our Rage, that we try to counteract the thoughts and impulses and instincts that come up by “flipping the coin” and suddenly imagining ourselves being on the receiving end of someone ELSE’S raging evil.

And that happens so fast, we don’t even notice the original thought we had – of hurting someone else.

Also – our bodies recognize and hold these thoughts and feelings – the SENSE of feeling rage and imagining evil deeds.  This is a natural, self-protective urge to survive and hurt someone before he or she hurts us – and also a physical need to discharge all that energy AFTERWARD.

So, if we’ve had a powerful thought, let’s say – of leaving our man, or of standing up to him and saying “NO” loud and clear, or of going out into the world and being hugely successful – we activate that physical sense that we will be PUNISHED – just for HAVING the THOUGHT.

And pretty soon, anything even remotely pleasurable gets hooked up with the anger and rage in our bodies – as though we have to push and shove others aside in order to get what we want – an either/or kind of mind set – and we instantly punish ourselves for the desire and the power and potential violence we have hooked up to it by imaging the OTHER person punishing and hurting US.

And we ACCEPT this, because it’s BETTER than being the one DOING the violence.

It’s as though there’s no middle ground.  Except – how often have you heard yourself going over and over again in your mind an imaginary conversation in which you are BARGAINING with your man?

In which you’re trying to straddle the two fears going through your heart – that either you will damage him, or he will damage you?

And what’s that middle ground you’re trying to bargain? And how do you do it?  By stuffing all the feelings, being nice, or trying to control his behavior, or – if all else fails – attacking verbally or with tears?

Basically BEGGING him to fix things so you won’t have to live with these conflicting ideas of damaging one another?

The way out of it is just what you’re doing, Reshi – bringing up the feelings you feel and the thoughts and images you have, sinking down into them, accepting them, loving them, and then flipping them and riffing them until you end up in a positive, good-feeling place.

As you accept and love it all – you will feel less afraid.

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1Cassandra on November 7, 2008 at 7:24 am

    Rori and Reshi….
    This is all so powerful! It seems that once we get through THIS that true emotional freedom is ours….it all makes so much sense. I would have to totally agree in that I actually had an extremely powerful experience yesterday when I was on the blog and doing some work of my own…I was responding to a note that Melissa had posted and I was trying to encourage her and deal with some things in my own thoughts as well when all of a sudden I realized through my own thoughts, experience and process doing your tools, Rori…that this is so true. I copied that part of the post from yesterday so that you could see what I was talking about….at leat I think that I am on the right track! 🙂 For me….this was a really huge deal. I am not sure if my thoughts have so much to do with punishment but they can get completely and totally overwhelming for me to the point of being totally debilitating so Reshi…i totally understand where you are coming from. I learn so much from your journey and thank you so much for being so open on this blog…you have helped me tremendously.

    Here is the part from yesterday’s post:
    “I am finding that when I don’t pay attenttion to the dark feelings that they seem to get bigger and scarier until I pay attention to them…follow them to wherever it is that they want to take me and it does seem to me that each and every time I end up in that place of light, love, and appreciation for myself and who I really am. YOWZA!! I did not realize how HUGE that is until I just wrote it down! How cool is that?! I don’t yet have children but it is almost as though the dark feelings are so starved for your attention – sort of like a little child gets when he or she wants so badly to show you or tell you something – that the feelings will get stronger and more dark until I pay them some attention and give them the love that they need and then once they are satisfied so to speak they lead me back into a place of peace, safety or whatever other light feeling I end up in…..I think that I have really hit on something here”

    Thanks Rori for your answer on the channeling step – that clarified a great deal for me! You and your tools are literally helping to change me from the inside out…..for ME! Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    With love and hugs……

  2.  #2Andrea on November 7, 2008 at 7:36 am

    this is so crazy…I have been feeling this way for the last few days and I really didn’t know where to turn so I came to the blog and this was the first article that I saw.

    I have been so hurt, afraid and angry in the last two days. I imagine that I want Jim dead or actually extremely mangled. The thoughts are bad to say the least. Then I have started to feel rejected and a loser. I want him to want me as much as I wanted him because it was torture for me to want him as I much as I did and not get that in return. I want him to be tortured for what he did to me. I want him to regret what happened between us. I want him to feel like a loser and I want him to be tortured. I want him to want me.

    I have been under so much stress in the past month. I was without a job, thankfully for only three days, but I knew I was going to be without job, I just didn’t know for how long. Finally the company I work for found another placement. It just happens to be too far to commute on a consistent basis. I will eventually get burnt out if I continue to drive this commute. So I have started to look at nearby places close to the city to move to. Of course I realized that, although Jim lives an hour from where I currently live, he works near where I want to live. I can’t win. I am not familiar with the area that he works, but the other day I was going to view a house to rent when I realized I was driving through his work site or nearby his work site. He works for a road construction company and he manages the equipment you see on the side of the road when there is road construction going on. So ever since then I have been completely tortured by seeing signs of the road that he works on and construction equipment. I’m stressed about the long commute I have now and on top of that seeing these reminders of him. I see them everywhere. WHY am I being the one that is tortured?? It’s not fair. WHY? This has happened in a matter of two days. This change was suppose to make my life better, it was suppose to start a new chapter, yet I feel I’m stepping to toward an old chapter. I don’t understand. I feel I can’t get away. On top of that I am terrified of moving. I don’t know many people in the area and I grew up in the country on a farm. Moving to the city is daunting. I can do it, but it all seems too much. Why am I tortured like this? Why isn’t he the one being tortured? It’s not fair.

  3.  #3Andrea on November 7, 2008 at 8:57 am

    This blows. I was checking my messages at work and a resident with the same last name as Jim’s lives in the property I manage. I have never met anyone with the same last name as Jim’s. Not Fair!!

  4.  #4JP on November 7, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    Andrea, I can feel the pain in your post (and I’ve been there too AND I got through it – to a great, powerful place).

    You’ve used the word ‘tortured’ so many times – what’s that like for you? I’m wondering – if you turn from your thoughts for a few moments and focus on your whole being – can you feel your feelings without interpreting them as being tortured?

    Whatever you feel, be gentle with yourself as you experience all your feelings in your own unique way. You feel so much because you are a real human being and I embrace you for that.

    I had a relationship end last Autumn – he lived very close to me and there were plenty of reminders of him around. I made a decision to alter my route for a while, then, when the pain was lessened in time, I made a point of driving my old route. I was shaking! But the important thing was – I used Rori’s tools, accepted and honoured my feelings without interpretation or judgement, and made as many moments as possible a baby-step better. If I saw a car like his, I noticed my chest tighten and fill – then I imagined the car was followed by another car driven by Hunk Hugglesome, my perfect man – daft stuff like that! I felt so powerful making each moment just a little better, that within a month I was having one of the BEST times of my life. At one point I had a list of TEN interested men! I’d also booked my diary up with a new great sport and some classes. I went dancing with girlfriends, stayed over with them, laughed, cried and LIVED.

    And he came back.

    And I wasn’t really interested any more, but I stayed open until I really, really wasn’t interested any more. No drama, just faded out…

  5.  #5Reshi on November 9, 2008 at 9:46 am

    WOW. I KNOW that’s true. I have a story to illustrate just this concept.

    One day in June I was feeling miserable about my relationship. So much unhappiness had gone on between us, my husband had become cold and rejecting towards me and I didn’t think I even loved him anymore and I knew I had to say something, but I didn’t know how to say it or what to say or what to do. And I was just wandering around the city crying my eyes out. And then he came to pick me up and I LET HIM HAVE IT. I cursed him out and told him all the many ways in which he had fallen short. It was a terrible argument. And then he asked me why I even cared anymore and I told him–because I realized it within myself at the time–that I still loved him. And I asked him if he still loved me and I got a STONY SILENCE.

    Talk about being afraid of my own power, and then turning it around so that I get punished!

    It was the most awful day of my entire life. My world was turned upside down, I was in a panic and completely heartbroken. And maybe I CAN’T even have any hope of reconnecting a relationship after something like that has happened…maybe I HAVE to just move on and leave the carnage behind me. I wish I’d found you before that happened…but I didn’t look for you until after.

    And I’m so angry thinking about that day, I could just kill someone to DEATH. I could just rip my husband’s heart out. Actually, I think I did, verbally, that day…and then gave him a knife to rip mine out with as well.

    I feel like because I did that, what I’m going through now is my well-deserved punishment. Like I can NEVER have what I want in love again, like I blew my only chance. I know you say if he’s still in the house there’s still hope, and Christian says that “it’s never too late unless you happened to murder the man you loved.” His mother says that he still loves me and my friends say that obviously he still loves me or he wouldn’t be going to this relationship seminar with me.

    I wish I could feel that love. I want to be forgiven for what I did because I really did the best I could with the knowledge I had at the time. But maybe I just have to accept that I’m a destroyer. Maybe I just have to accept that all I can do is destroy a man and then leave him or push him into another woman’s arms–so SHE can heal him and he can be happy forever with HER.

    I do love that part of me that wants to destroy men…even that part that wants to destroy men who LOVE ME. I know it is just trying to protect me and it feels safe being alone. I don’t want to destroy my husband or our relationship. I want to heal him and me and us and everything. I want to feel full of the divine healing energy ALL THE TIME. And the first thing I have to do is heal ME.

  6.  #6Andrea on November 9, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    Thanks JP, but its not even reminders. I feel like there is a force trying to connect us. For example, I am looking for a new place to live. I took a new job where I now have an awful commute. If I don’t move I will be burned out by the commute. I want to move closer to the city so that I can meet new people and change jobs should I chose to. I don’t know the area well. I do know that by ex works somewhere in the 25-50 mile radius. Based on the information he had provided when we were together I put two and two together today. I went to look at some places today. I finally found a place I liked but before I got there I put the pieces together and I am 99% sure that the place I like is less than a half mile from his work site. Most of his job is outdoors and its fairly probable that he would see me and he would see me possibley on a daily basis. So I had to think, do I give up this place that I love so that I’m not sick to my stomach everyday and so that he doesn’t think I’m stalking him or do I take it. Its really not fair. I feel like I can’t get away from him. I want to be in this area but it reminds me of him without having any memories together with him. I feel like I’m doing more living but feel that something is drawing us together or is connecting us. I wish I knew.

  7.  #7JP on November 10, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    I see what you mean, Andrea – like it keeps happening even though you’re making all these changes, not just little changes, but big ones like moving somewhere you’d really love and getting a new job, living more – and then it’s as if you’re being pushed around by a force outside your control, something that wants to connect you to this man. That sounds really hard when you’re trying to get back on your feet. It seems so painful figuring out what to do and what the force means!

    I recognise that place so much. It also reminds me of synchronicity – coincidences that repeat themselves, which for me, now, means that I’m actually on my own right track. Maybe that force is for you, not against you! Can you imagine it has a shape or a colour or even a sound? Does it have a name or maybe it’s recognisable as something. I like picturing feelings this way – sometimes there’s a message. I like meeting my images in a setting I’ve created too, maybe a garden I’ve made in my imagination, where we can have a conversation.

  8.  #8Andrea on November 10, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    JP says, “I see what you mean, Andrea – like it keeps happening even though you’re making all these changes, not just little changes, but big ones like moving somewhere you’d really love and getting a new job, living more – and then it’s as if you’re being pushed around by a force outside your control, something that wants to connect you to this man.”

    YES!!! JP that’s exactly it! And here is another coincidence… My roommate went to North Carolina this past weekend – about 5 – 6 hours from where we live- 2 states away from where we live to be more precise. I got to talk with her tonight. I asked her where she went in NC. I was expecting her to say some beach resort. No, she said she went to the ECU’s homecoming in Greenville, NC. That is where Jim went to college! Of all the places she could have gone she went there! For sometime since we had been together, Jim had wanted to take me to the ECU’s homecoming. I couldn’t believe it, of all the places that she could have gone in NC! She kept telling everyone that her ex boyfriend Randy went there, but then she called him to tell him where she was and he told her that is not where he went to college. I told her it was MY ex boyfriend that went there. I would not have been surprised if she ran into Jim. It would not be the first time that my roommate ran into him a few hours away from home after we broke up. Again, like a force wants to us together but not powerful enough to keep us together.

    SO WEIRD. And I don’t understand it. It’s like you said, I’m making these changes and I feel I am making huge improvements, but then this is happening. Its a power beyond my control. It’s intriguing yet mostly annoying. I don’t know if this is suppose to push me forward or if it is trying to hold me back. I feel I’m being held back. I think ‘why am I being reminded of him when I’m trying for the first time to move on’? ‘Is it his thoughts toward me? Is it my thoughts toward him? Is this some greater thing trying to tell me something?’ I just don’t know, maybe its just a phase.

    JP, I like your synchronicity explanation. It gives me hope. It gives me hope that maybe that is the answer. It gives me something to label it. To me it feels like a twilight zone of some sort – weird coincidences that are happening all at once, but seem to have no use or meaning, but… have meaning. That’s the part that is annoying, that it has a meaning but means nothing – if that makes sense? IT MUST HAVE SOME SORT OF MEANING?? What am I suppose to learn from it? Otherwise I feel it is holding me back.

    Thank you for your feedback JP. I have enjoyed reading your comments and feel enlightened by them. I hope to hear more from you.

  9.  #9JP on November 11, 2008 at 4:31 am

    Thank you Andrea! I feel so moved reading your story, deeply moved and honoured to read it.

    That is an amazing coincidence – your friend visiting so far away and there’s the connection with Jim – again! You’re asking yourself what it means – if only you knew what it all meant you’d get some peace.

    I know you’re not asking me to answer the question, but I so much want to respond. I’ve been blessed with great mentors on my my own journey, and I want to pass on something that was said to me by a great woman (I’ll call her Betty – she’s not on the internet, is not famous, but fabulous). “Sometimes the Universe has other plans for us. We can get in the way of its plans trying to figure it all out, and then we get in our own way. Let it unfold, just be, just feel, just work with what we know and see what happens.”

    Synchronicity is so tantalising, isn’t it?! Of course I’d want to figure it out too. So annoying. But how wonderful to be shown we are on our ‘own right path’! That’s what I recognise now, when synchronicity happens.

    What you get across so clearly and passionately, Andrea, is that you feel such pain when yet another connection with Jim occurs. The other bit is that you feel there’s a meaning but you don’t know what it is, and that feels so frustrating. So to me, all of that is your ‘in-the-moment truth’, and that’s the place to begin – loving yourself, using Rori’s tools (my version of ‘Out The Window’ is: notice three things around you right now that make you feel good, they can be visual, or sounds, or remembering the postman smiled at you this morning).

    You’re connected to something greater, I’m sure! – I believe we are all connected and also guided by our energy linking in with forces we don’t at present understand intellectually.

    I want to end this post by sending you A BIG VIRTUAL HUG 🙂 !!

  10.  #10Andrea on November 11, 2008 at 6:52 am

    JP you are so wonderful to take to time help me get some incite and a bit of understanding to all of this! Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to understand how I feel. You have hit the nail on the head!

    There was yet another small reminder on the tv this morning. Another small coincidence. Too insigifigent for others to understand but another painful reminder the minute I wake and turn on the TV.

    I’m trying to let go, yet these reminders make it hard to forget. It is painful. It’s confusing. It’s holding me back when I was progressing forward.

    I believe that something bigger is creating these connections but I don’t understand what it’s all for. I’d like to believe that it has meaning; that it’s for my good, but I don’t know how to turn it to my good. I’m hoping Rori can help me with that.

    Its frustrating to think that my energy could be going out to him like this and creating these experiences. I don’t want that to happen. I don’t want to believe that, but the thought has come across my mind. I want to believe that its all for my good and that there is a meaning and a purpose. However because I don’t understand it, it’s painful. I hope to understand it soon.

  11.  #11Rori Raye on November 11, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    Andrea and JP – thank you so much for this work you’re doing together. And I’m putting my two cents into a new post – look for it here…

    Love, Rori

  12.  #12JP on November 11, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    Thank you Rori! I’m looking forward to reading your new post. This blog is such a great idea. I’ve longed for somewhere to put down my thoughts and share my journey, and receive support when I need it. It’s so good to connect with others after a time of following your programmes in isolation. I still listen – I put some of the Interviews on my phone and often fall asleep to Carol Tingle or Alana Pratt at night (no offence intended!!) X

  13.  #13Andrea on November 11, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Cool I can’t wait to see what Rori has to say about all this! I feel excited!