Can You Train a Clueless or Difficult Man to Be Affectionate, Loving and Kind

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Okay – most men are not the high quality you want and deserve. And what I mean by that is a man who calls, who’s generous to you, who’s kind, attentive, affectionate, straight-forward, accepting of you and himself and who genuinely wants a lifelong commitment with you and deals with his fear around it in order to be with you.

The easiest way, as Evan Marc Katz talks about in his newest blog video…is to simply not allow men who AREN’T like that into your life. That’s where Circular Dating works its magic – you have so many men around you there’s no need to hang onto any one who isn’t stepping up.

But what if you’ve just found me – and you’re already IN a relationship with a man who isn’t doing “the job.” Who ISN’T calling you. Isn’t generous. Isn’t affectionate and attentive and headed for commitment. Can you change that around?

The easy answer is “forget it” – just give him the “no boyfriend speech,” Circular Date – and see what he and all the other men you’re going to let into your heart do.

But you don’t always want to hear that.

Sometimes you want to “work” the relationship you’re in. Sometimes you really believe your man is a diamond in the rough and that you can be the one to sparkle him up.

Once you’re invested in a man – it’s hard to just “let go” and “move on” and all those clever things I could say – so let’s talk here about rescuing your investment.

I’m going to take this through the Seven Steps in my Commitment Blueprint program – short version – with some extra thoughts:

Step 1: Understand that the dynamic between you – the “Energy Exchange” – is completely reversed, and that it’s up to you to change it to the way it needs to be, so that HE and his energy are always coming towards YOU.

Step 2:  Stop What Isn’t Working.  Step back. Turn around. Stop Overfunctioning. Strip away all your giving, “picking up the slack,” and Leaning Forward. Stop talking. Stop Discussing. Stop Negotiating. Just stop whatever you’ve been doing that isn’t working.

Step 3: Be an Invitation. Open up your heart. Speak in Feeling Messages.

Step 4: Process your Emotions – they’re going to show up inside you the moment you start doing step 2 and 3 – this is the emotional healing part!…

Step 5: Fall in love with Yourself. Date Yourself. Get focused on YOU – even if it feels “selfish” to you. Without this step, you will get nowhere.

Step 6: Circular Date. Take all my Tools out into the field, practice on every man you see and meet and talk to. don’t get exclusively involved if you haven’t already, and consider stopping the exclusivity even if you’re invested in a man. This is your most powerful leveraging point for doing all the other steps – it will beef you up inside.

Step 7: This is about shifting your own vibe, not about getting him to do something.

Thank him when he does something you like. Appreciate him no matter what. Loving him and allowing him to treat you poorly are two very different things. Accept him no matter what – even when he behaves badly – but DO NOT ACCEPT OR TOLERATE BAD OR NEGLECTFUL BEHAVIOR TOWARD YOU.

Here’s the extra thoughts: If he behaves in a way you don’t like – not calling, not being affectionate, so many other possibilities – the entire relationship dynamic has to be healed. You can’t heal all that by trying to get more affection this one time. If he’s being cold to you in bed…you will not get anywhere complaining.

So – what does not tolerating  in this scenario look like?

***You could get up and go read in the living room. You could get dressed and go out, even in the middle of the night. You could just start crying right there and let him deal with it or not (he’ll likely say to be quiet, he needs to sleep if he’s a sub-par man). You could shake him and wake him and THROW HIM out of bed, saying you can’t sleep, it feels too cold, and if it’s not going to be warm and affectionate and honest (I mean, what’s up with all the coldness, anyway? you could always ask…) you’d rather sleep alone.

You’ve got lots of options. Laying there in bed, putting your hand over his back and trying to sleep and get through it is likely your worst option – because it’s the useless one you’ve been using.

So – if you’re already invested in a relationship and in a man, I want you to (while you’re gearing up to really Circular Date, which will give you so much new, helpful energy:

1. Write a list of things you’re tolerating and accepting that don’t feel good.

2. Now – next to, or under each item in your list – write down how you’ve been handling the item when it shows up, and write some NEW ways to handle it!

Ways that would shake everything up.

Be outrageous. Even if you don’t want to do the idea you come up with, if you’re scared to do it, or you don’t think it’s appropriate, or it makes you feel guilty or sad (just so you know – if you’re feeling these things when you consider doing something new around your man’s bad behavior – you might be on the brink of a fabulous breakthrough in actually seeing clearly what’s been holding you back in love…), write it down.

3. Imagine what it would feel like to do those things you come up with – even the outrageous ones. Let yourself really feel the bravery and weirdness and fear that come up when you imagine stepping out of your “comfort zone” and responding differently in a same-old-same-old situation.

I’d love to see your lists – so post them here if you can...and then let’s support each other to try some of these new things and report back on what happened.

Nothing teaches an old dog new tricks like a new “whisperer” attitude from the trainer. And though I don’t want us to think of ourselves as “man trainers” – in a sense each of us trains those in relationships with us around how we are to be treated. Men train us (that’s how we developed our relationship “styles” – for our good and for our bad, too…) – and we train children and co-workers, and men we meet on the street, and men we’ve known for a long while.

When we change – everything changes. Yes, we’re that powerful. You respond differently, and he’ll behave differently.

Yes, if you’ve been clinging to a man who is always partway out the door, and it’s the only thing that’s keeping him with you, then not tolerating his bad behavior might release him completely out the door. This is always the risk you run.

And I ask you – do you want to spend your life holding onto a man by the skin of your teeth? Or do you want a man who wants you, too? So you can relax?

If you don’t think you deserve a man who cares for you at least as much as you care for him – we all need to start there to support you to change that belief…and for now – just try this list. It will get all your thoughts, beliefs and behaviors in motion inside you. It will shake things up for you…and that’s when good stuff happens!

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1Flora on April 19, 2010 at 10:27 am

    Rori, I have a question about toxic men. I have your CD’s and it says don’t take a ‘stance’ because it’s masculine. I was dating a man for 6 months who didn’t in the end want to commit although he told me he was crazy about me often, he broke it off a month ago and I didn’t resist just gave him your speech about “I agree if you don’t feel that way, it can’t work and I wish you well”. He was separated and has now started emailing me saying he misses me and assuring me he is getting divorced and sending me romantic music in the post. I have been ignoring these advances because I want him to come claim me totally or not at all. Is ignoring them a ‘stance’ I would love to get back together but only if he is really stepping up for me. Please help.

  2.  #2Siena on April 19, 2010 at 11:04 am

    This feels good… nothing Rori recommends feels surprising to me anymore. When I first came here, I felt surprised and icky at how I was doing everything wrong and backwards. Well, not everything… I felt happy to know that Siren behavior came naturally to me.

    Now it feels good to know that I have absorbed the Rori Raye Way of dating. Now I just have to practice and practice again. It feels good to know that there are no more surprises and that I am on my way to Happily Ever After!

  3.  #3Siena on April 19, 2010 at 11:23 am

    I meant I felt happy to know that *some* (a little teensy bit) came naturally to me.

  4.  #4J-Rock on April 19, 2010 at 11:45 am

    “When I first came here, I felt surprised and icky at how I was doing everything wrong and backwards. Well, not everything… I felt happy to know that Siren behavior came naturally to me.”

    Oh, this really resonates with me! When I discovered Rori’s site, I kept thinking, “Oh, crap. I really SUCK at this whole relationship thing!” Reading Siena’s comment, I feel giggly and safe. I read the ebook on Saturday and just ordered the Siren program today. I posted a few things this weekend, but decided to change my username to what my man calls me. It feels right, and he’s right: I DO ROCK! 🙂

    I am processing so much right now. I feel giddy and empowered and very happy to have these Tools to work with. My man is unavailable to me right now, and the truth is he may NEVER be available to me; but I now know that if I continue to work this program and live my life, it won’t matter. He knows I am going to start seeing other people, and he knows he has to accept that — his words.

    This weekend, spending time with him, I consciously listened to him. He’s sooooo good at revealing himself to me and telling me what he wants and needs. When I let go of the anger and frustration and disappointment and control, and focused on my feminine energy, the results were astounding. There was no tension, and he left here relaxed and content; and most importantly — I felt the same way. I woke up this morning with a smile on my face for the first time in a long time!

    One of the things he says to me is, “I know you love me, but sometimes I feel you don’t LIKE me.” This has been hard for me to process, because I know I like him. Of course I like him, or I wouldn’t be with him! But I thought about what he really meant, and how that made him feel, and I sent him this message:

    “I just wanted to tell you that I’ve been thinking about it, and it makes sense that the reason you think I don’t LIKE you is really because you don’t feel like I LISTEN to you. You don’t feel understood. And I know I haven’t been listening to you. You’re very good at telling me what you want and need from me, you really are. That’s so rare, and I feel so lucky. I am learning how to listen to you. I was very conscious of it all day yesterday, listening to what you were saying and absorbing the words and understanding what they revealed about your personality. A lot of people do it instinctively. But it’s new to me. I felt very happy and appreciative to learn more about you yesterday. And when I listened to you this way, I felt little pings in my chest, little sparks that made me feel so good about you. As a person, as a man, as someone I feel so lucky to know and want to know more about.”

    It felt really good to send that to him. And he called and thanked me for the email and said he appreciated what I said and teased me after everything he said by asking, “But do you UNDERSTAND what I’m saying?” It was fun, and felt good and light. He is so goodnatured and wonderful and enlightened in such simple ways. But he’s not perfect, and when I have more time today, I will work through the list in this post. I feel excited and grateful to be able to explore these opportunities for changes in attitude.

  5.  #5Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    I used to think I was a leaner backer. Now I realize I’m most likely an avoider, who sometimes leans forward. So maybe I need to be a non-avoider, but not be so available when I’m interested in someone.

    I’m just rambling here.

  6.  #6Rori Raye on April 19, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    Flora – Welcome, and you’re doing GREAT!!! Not getting pulled in by this kind of erratic behavior (understandable after his ending a marriage – but not good for YOU), turning away, keeping your space, focusing on yourself – and yet staying WARM should he actually show up NOT MARRIED (actually divorced) – is total Boundaries and total girl energy. Love, Rori

  7.  #7Rori Raye on April 19, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Goodheart – really, really great insight. That’s where the “invitation” – “warm” part of this strong on the inside, soft on the outside combo comes in…avoidance is a “stance” – a masculine thing we put up, walls on the outside, because we don’t feel strong enough – (boundaries, our rock, our tree trunk) on the the inside. As you work both sides of this – you’ll see amazing things happen… Practically – availability is this – Circular Dating is a kind of “job” for your “boy energy” to do. The “getting yourself out there” and keeping your schedule and booking dates is all what your ‘boy” does. Your girl shows up on the date and practices being a girl. So – create your availability as a schedule that combines your adventurous fun things you do for YOU – with being in public, and opening up time to accept dates with messengers! Just treat all men the SAME!!! Love, Rori

  8.  #8Kiki on April 19, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    Hi, I have a comment about this. You see, I have been following the circular dating method for many years, in fact, years before I ever even stumbled upon Rori’s material. I’d like the raise the issue of being “eternally single” due to this method. I have a very low tolerance for men’s “less than stellar” behavior, and I quickly flush them down the toilet if they are not living up to expectations. The problem though, is that NO ONE lives up! I have been dating for years, only to find that there isn’t a single man out there who steps up to the plate in the way described in the opening paragraph of this post. They are all aloof, irresponsible, and detached. I know I’m wonderful, important, and beautiful, so why does it seem so impossible to meet someone just as wonderful? I’m worried that this is a pattern that will never change. Thoughts? Comments?

  9.  #9J-Rock on April 19, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Okay, I’ll give this a whirl:

    1. Him: “J, I know we had plans tonight, but my dad called to see if I could come over for dinner, and I feel obligated to go. Please don’t be mad.”

    My man is separated from his wife, but still living in house and reluctant to take steps towards moving out and filing for divorce. A mutual friend confirms what my man tells me — that he and wife are roommates, and have been for most of the three year marriage. But since he is still legally married, and she does not want the divorce, and it’s important to both of us not to be open about us until he’s single (his family is very religious, and I don’t want to start off being the Other Woman in their minds, even though that wasn’t the case), our relationship is a secret from everyone but his closest friends. His family is very important to him, and one of his brothers suffered a tragedy a few months ago. This has pulled the family closer together; there are more dinners and hanging out, which is wonderful for them. But there have been times when he’s cancelled plans with me to be with his family (wife is not included, btw). I totally understand. But when he does things with his family, I feel so left out, devalued, ashamed.

    Me: “Mad? Why would I be mad? What kind of person do you think I am? But while we’re at it, why do you always do this? All you do is show me how far down I am on your list.” Then, “Fine. I understand. I’m sorry. But would you come over after just to sleep?”

    UGH!!! I feel embarrassed. How have I been handling this? Um… pushing, pulling, pouting, ultimatums, relentless questions, withholding, overfunctioning, crying, manipulating, leaning forward. Showing him exactly why he should be reluctant to give up comfie roommate status and begin a new life with a batshit crazy woman who can bring him to his knees and shut him down for days with one phone conversation or email. I feel ashamed and embarrassed for my behavior, but mostly for spending so much time and energy trying to change the outcome of a situation that’s none of my business.

    What would I LIKE to do? What would feel right? Continue to draw boundaries and back off until he takes action and moves out and starts divorce proceedings. When the situation with family arises again say, “That sounds like a nice time. I feel happy that your family is showing each other how important you are to each other. I feel inspired by how strong you guys are.” Stay soft and open and inviting so that he feels safe and loved when we DO talk, but begin to accept the invitations I’ve turned down this past year. That would feel awkward at first. It would feel awkward to plan something with another man, get ready for it, drive to the place, etc. But I can imagine it would also feel liberating. Not spiteful or mean or vengeful. Just liberating.

    Am I getting the hang of this? It feels good. Overwhelming. I feel confused by the whole “feeling” thing. I spend about 95% of the day in my head.

  10.  #10Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    Rori, thank you for addressing my “rambling” comment. I really will work on “soft on the outside, strong on the inside.” I feel like that is my magic potion. I am pulling the walls down. I also want to thank Dorothea for mentioning it in one of her posts – the difference between leaning back & avoiding because it hit me like a ton of bricks ( the walls coming down maybe?)

  11.  #11Siena on April 19, 2010 at 3:51 pm


    “That sounds like a nice time. I feel happy that your family is showing each other how important you are to each other. I feel inspired by how strong you guys are.”

    I wouldn’t feel this way at all. I felt icky reading this. I don’t want to be in a relationship where I’m not invited to the family dinner… especially if it’s INSTEAD of my planned date with my man.

    This is not judgment on you, but that was a trigger for me. ewww, that’s happened to me before and it just doesn’t feel good at all!

  12.  #12Rori Raye on April 19, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Kiki – Welcome, and you’re talking about another kind of “rotation dating” that is NOT Circular Dating….Circular Dating is about looking at every man you encounter as a “Free Therapist” – as a “Messenger” – with whom you interact – and with the ONLY goal of PRACTICING my Tools. If you’re kicking men to the curb, you’re not Circular Dating. There are so many other things that go into this – but start with Curiosity – why is any particular man showing up for you? I completely disagree with you about the “stellarness” of men. You’re just looking at the same man over and over because you still haven’t gotten the message he’s bringing you. Circular Dating is a completely diffferent way to look at all of this – a new perspective. Love, Rori

  13.  #13J-Rock on April 19, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Siena, I hear you. I wouldn’t actually say that. I’m laughing at the Stepfordesque sound… More accurately, I wouldn’t freak out. Fight. Attack. Maybe say I felt disappointed, but that I understand. I *do* understand clearly. I understand that his family has priority right now. And the fact that I’m not included is reason #452 why I won’t wait around anymore.

  14.  #14Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    J-Rock, you said – Me: “Mad? Why would I be mad? What kind of person do you think I am? But while we’re at it, why do you always do this? All you do is show me how far down I am on your list.” Then, “Fine. I understand. I’m sorry. But would you come over after just to sleep?”

    There is blame-putting here, “why do you always do this?” It is also very confusing. You sound angry. Then blaming. Then end with, “I’m sorry. I understand.” And an invitation to come over.

    Um. I woud first get rid of the blame & stick with how you feel. “I understand your family needs you right now and I feel very disappointed I can’t be with you.”

    I’m getting that showing up at family dinners probably isn’t prudent right now since they don’t know about you. Is that right? This makes it difficult to be very siren-ish. I would want to step back totally & wait until he is truly available.

    Because right now he isn’t.

  15.  #15Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    Oops. Why do I keep trying to give advice? I should say that is probably what I would feel best doing if I were in that situation.

    But, of course, if I were in that situation I probably wouldn’t listen to my own advice!

  16.  #16J-Rock on April 19, 2010 at 4:21 pm


    You’re right, that was an example of all of the WRONG ways I’ve been responding. I was just trying to follow the outline of the original post and come up with a time when I handled something in the wrong way, and how I could handle it differently next time. Sorry that wasn’t clear.

    And yes, I know it’s time to step back. That’s why I’m here! 🙂

  17.  #17Siena on April 19, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    LOL Goodheart, I’m right there with you. I’ve spent time today writing posts, deciding that they’re actually thinly-veiled advice, and then erasing them.

    But J-Rock’s struck a chord with me. I felt my stomach turn when I read about the dinner plans. Oh, man! That feels terrible!!

  18.  #18Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    Siena, I like it when you give advice 🙂 Really, I do. And some of the posts actually ask for advice. But, yeah, I’m not really qualified to give it! I think we mean well 🙂

    It’s funny how I’m picking up on the language now. JRock, seriously, just about a minute ago I would’ve said all those wrong things too! The words “think” & “you” are like neon now! I really hope, oh gosh I hope, that this all sinks in the next time I’m in an awkward situation like that with a man. Let’s bow our heads & pray.

  19.  #19Siena on April 19, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    “agnus dei, qui tolles pecata mundi”… oh wait, I was praying… haha I love when you’re online Goodheart! It feels good in my heart!!

  20.  #20Siena on April 19, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    Re Rori’s #12. I was just about to fire off a “I’m not feeling it” email to this weekend’s date. grrrr… what should I do? Do I go with my gut that feels that never seeing this man again would be a good thing because I’m not feelign it? Or, should I let him take me out one more time? Is the message just a lesson in saying no? (I’ve always been the nice girl who has a hard time saying no.) Or… grrrr. I feel confused. He’s very sweet. I’m just not attracted. But I don’t have to be attracted, do I?

    He said, “I enjoyed our lunch meeting tremendously. And your beautiful smile is so much better in person.”

    I should be feeling totally stoked to hear that, right? Really I just feel icky and obligated and like I *should* go out again because it’s good for me… But then I feel like a Siren would never go anywhere she didn’t want to.

  21.  #21Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    Siena, you make my heart plump up a little when you say things like that. Like my mama always says, “You’re gonna turn my head right around if you keep talking like that. (blush)”

    So now I feel comfortable telling you that I feel happy when you’re online too. (giggle like a school girl).

    You know? We actually practice on each here with the feeling messages & being open. Wow.

    And thanks for the prayer. I feel like I’m back at St. Matthias 🙂 I can feel my first-communion shoes pinching my feet.

  22.  #22Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    Well, Siena, since I already have my advice hat on…

    I would give him one more date. IF, you weren’t totally repelled by him. If he is like bug spray I would say the icky feeling outweigh the therapy at that point (my opinion). If my gut gets all twisty when I think about seeing him again, I don’t. BUT, if he was just on of the ho-hum, nodding off in your coffee guys, I’d go again. And here’s why (geesh, am I on a roll or what?)

    A little over a year ago, I had a date with a guy I did not want to go out with again because I just did not feel it. At all. But I said ok to another date because I didn’t want to be mean. And he was nice. We are friends to this day and, even though, I still don’t feel it, I continue to learn about myself through him.

  23.  #23Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Aaannnd, what if he holds the key to all the boring dates? What if one more date with him opens your eyes to something? What if you, omg, you start to like him?

  24.  #24Siena on April 19, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Thanks Goodheart. I don’t feel repulsed by him but… (Okay, this is going to feel terrible to say, I feel like a bitch saying this… ) I feel embarrassed to be seen with him. He’s somewhat awkward and I don’t feel feminine and safe with him because I don’t get the ‘strong’ vibe from him. And I feel embarrassed to be at dinner with him (scrunchy nose, cover ears, like I just dropped a hand grenade). There I said it. Oh, I feel like a bad person!

    hmmm… so maybe I should (there’s that word again!) go out with him one more time and listen for the messages? He’d be safe to practice on, if nothing else.


  25.  #25Rachel on April 19, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    Things have been really good between me and my guy for weeks now. I’ve been leaning back and busy with my life and he’s been stepping up and pursuing with many small sweet gestures that I have longed for. So last night, when my children said some hurtful and cruel things, I felt comfortable to send him a message about what was going on and to end it by saying that I wished he could hold me.

    Today we talked and while he expressed concern for what had happened, he never offered comfort in a tender or loving way. So I asked him about my “holding” comment. He said it made him feel nervous and confused.

    I said “you don’t like when i express that?” and he said something about me arguing that he never does enough and then he abruptly said he had to go and left me hanging.

    I feel so angry and hurt. I wasn’t making ANY statements about what he does or doesn’t do. I simply said it would feel really good to be held. I don’t usually say that sort of thing because I want him to be rowing the boat. But under the circumstances where I was really hurting and he says he loves me, I felt it was ok to express.

    Was I wrong?

    This is what I wrote to him. Does this sound ok? Would there be a way I could better express it?

    “I feel very confused. I didn’t understand what you were trying to say and it felt really bad that you jumped out of the conversation without trying to explain or promising that you would later. (i understand you had to pick up hannah) I obviously make you uncomfortable when I hurt and express certain desires. When I say I wish you could hold me, I’m not saying that you’re not doing something right! To me it’s like if we were together and I would just say, honey, would you just hold me right now? I’m not sure if you’re trying to tell me that you don’t want me to say that? It feels instinctive to me when I’m hurting to turn toward you. But your remarks make me feel that you may be in a different place. What do you think?

    I understand that I’m very emotionally raw today and that you probably don’t know quite what to say or do. That’s when hugs and just being held feel the best.

    But I feel like the message you’re sending me is that I shouldn’t ask for that from you. And I haven’t for so long … but today was just so hard. Things have been so good between us that I felt comfortable to ask and that you’d be there for me. Sorry if I shouldn’t have. I feel more alone now because I don’t know what you were thinking.

    I love where things are with us lately and I enjoy everything you give me. In that context, it just felt natural to express my desire. But doing that opened up my heart to a deeper level and now, already raw, I wish I hadn’t because if you choose not to hold me, I feel that pain too. Just trying to explain and probably way overdoing it and making matters worse…

    maybe i do have be “on” with you? if being honest and open makes you uncomfortable… what am i to do? i really hope that you’ll take some time to help me understand this. i honestly don’t know what you were thinking during our conversation”

    I already sent the messages before I thought to come here. So it’s too late to change them, but maybe your input could help for when we talk again? Thanks

  26.  #26Siena on April 19, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    (here’s a thought) what if… I wrote back to him and said something like,

    “I feel confused because I didn’t feel a ‘spark’ with you, but I liked the time we spent together. I would feel good going out with you again to discover whether the spark is there for me, but I don’t want to lead you on. What do you think?”

    ? I’m feeling that’s authentic and honest… and something I would NEVER say pre-Rori.


  27.  #27Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Siena, that sounds so much like how I feel with my male friend. He is very awkward with affection & it makes me uncomfortable. The strong vibe is exactly what’s missing & what I’m looking for. I felt so horrible a couple months ago when I was at his house for a football playoff party. When the Cardinals scored, he jumped up to give me a high five and it was so weak & mild that it turned me totally off. How crazy is that? He is nice & caring. And I value his friendship, but I’m simply not physically attracted to him because of the passive vibe. But I love having him in my life. And I’ve learned that I need to get to a place where I feel comfortable with me so that men feel comfortable with me. That’s what I learned from him. So far.

    Ok, Dear Abby, has to go to her hula lesson 🙂 Please take what I tell you as just MY experience. You have to do what’s right for you. I trust you.

    Nite Siena.

  28.  #28Siena on April 19, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    Hula?! Now I feel jealous! G’night!!

  29.  #29Goodheart on April 19, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Ok, what you just said (#26) sounds perfect! How could he resist that or feel bad about it?

    Ok, I hear the ukelele calling…

  30.  #30Siena on April 19, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    okay, NOW I feel all flushed in my cheeks and I feel my heart pounding. I was responding to my weekend date with something along the lines of what I wrote above, when I realized that it is the same thing that my man said to me when he broke up with me. “I really enjoy our conversation but there’s something missing. I just can’t do this.” Is what he said to me…

    oh man, can I really do this to someone else? I feel numb in my arms and hot in my head, and a little dizzy…

  31.  #31J-Rock on April 19, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    Friday night I went out with a girlfriend. Before I picked her up I stopped at the store to get gum and cash. I felt very good about myself and it showed; and as I was walking to the checkout line, a sea of men literally parted to let me pass by! It made me giggle. I passed by two really nice looking men who stopped their conversation to look at me. There was no way I could walk by without making eye contact. I looked up and smiled, and when I did, the blister pack of gum flew out of the sleeve and landed at their feet. They both scrambled to pick it up and hand it to me. It felt so good! We all laughed, and I smiled and said, “Thank you, sir!” to the man who handed the gum to me, and kept walking. Fun stuff…

    After dinner we went to see a band. The drummer is a man who a friend wanted to fix me up with a few months ago. We talked on the phone and exchanged emails in September, but (a) I didn’t feel any spark, and (b) I was so wrapped up in my man that I broke a date with this guy, telling him I didn’t think the timing was right so soon after my divorce to meet someone new. Seeing him, he was just NOT my type. I left quickly after the set. But, thinking about the purpose of Circular Dating, the next morning I sent him an email telling him I saw the show, and I thought he was a great drummer. He responded that he was glad I made it out, and next time to say hi. So… not exactly the “omg, I saw you and I want to go out with you” I was looking for, but it’s probably a deadend for CD anyway since I blew him off a few months ago.

    Anyway, it’s a good start, I guess. And the flirting with grocery store men felt good!

  32.  #32Jackie on April 19, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    Hi ladies. I need somewhere to spew. And this post from Rori seems to be well-timed as well; seems like it was speaking directly to me.

    I’m pretty new here so y’all might not have seen my intro post. I feel really crappy today! Last week I sent my guy a version of a goodbye note, it wasn’t so much a goodbye as a “til later”.

    I stepped back…I was doing good. I even went against the feelings of panic and fear and signed up for an online dating site to start CD’ing. Saturday I was having a tough time – but I dated myself. I stayed leaning back from my guy and I didn’t reach out. Yesterday I felt pretty good, got some good hits on the dating site, got a new haircut that had me feeling sassy, was hearing compliments about my profile, etc. I had my moments of thinking and feeling for a minute like I was sinking back into the pits, but I was able to chant my mantra and stay on the Bridge.

    Today 🙁 I jumped off the Bridge. I don’t know why – I was even thinking just a bit before I did it about someone else having posted having done the same and I could see it wasn’t the right move for them. Then I go and do it myself; gotta say it was pretty tough not to sink in to both the pits and self-blame. One week of lean back flushed and then get disappointed and hurt because of not getting any kind of response back 🙁 . I’m not gonna say I’m back on my Bridge, but I’m not all the way in the pits either. I love myself even though I boo-boo’d. I had good intentions and I love those about myself. I love the strength that I have to get back on the horse and try again.

    But sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Like I said well timed post by Rori 🙂 …. what am I doing that isn’t working, how could I be doing it better?

    1) Accepting no contact
    What am I doing?: Reaching out, even with feeling messages, reaching out leads to hurt and pushing him away
    What should I be doing?: Leaning back – being open when he returns (since I’m invested and can’t walk away) ….. there needs to be more here. It is not OK that he disrespects and dishonors me with no contact!

    Blah I feel so sad 🙁 !

  33.  #33Jackie on April 19, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    Well maybe I figured out how to be a little too authentic too early on in communicating with guys. LOL atleast it was good for a laugh. One of the new contacts I’m communicating with online asked me how my day went. I said: “I feel a little blue, but I’m getting through and tomorrow is another day”….then some more yada yada about something else. It wasn’t a depressed or emotional email. He responds: “Why are you feeling blue? Are you bi-polar or something? You can tell me anything”.

    Seems rude when I write it, but somehow it conveyed cluelessly sweet in his actual email. So what’s the message…am I bi-polar, is that why I jumped off the Bridge?

    No offense to anyone who might actually be suffering from it…it was just funny how he just put it out there like that.

  34.  #34Simply Shannon on April 19, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    Curious here. If I feel yucky when Mr. Fab Kisser has a bad attitude, what do I say? I get confused saying what I’m feeling without blaming him for it. Make sense? Any ideas out here on Siren Island?

  35.  #35Lucy on April 19, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    Siena– I like #26. I wrote that to a guy and it turned out he felt similarly. We’ve been doing stuff now as friends, and it feels so good to have that “lack of spark” out in the open.

  36.  #36Lucy on April 19, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    I feel curious and perplexed.

    “Okay – most men are not the high quality you want and deserve. And what I mean by that is a man who calls, who’s generous to you, who’s kind, attentive, affectionate, straight-forward, accepting of you and himself and who genuinely wants a lifelong commitment with you and deals with his fear around it in order to be with you.”

    Almost every man who has shown up in the last 7 months when I have been circular dating fits EXACTLY Rori’s description here of “high quality” — every one of those traits — but I don’t LIKE these men! (And, actually, my ex-h fit those traits too, before we were married.)

    Anyone have any thoughts on what might be going on and what to do about it?

    Does this mean I like LOW quality men???

  37.  #37Siena on April 19, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    Lucy, how would it feel to have a romance with a man who who calls, who’s generous to you, who’s kind, attentive, affectionate, straight-forward, accepting of you and himself and who genuinely wants a lifelong commitment with you and deals with his fear around it in order to be with you.

    Do you feel ready for that? Do you feel ready to be able to receive all that love?

  38.  #38Lucy on April 19, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Thanks for the questions, Siena. I spent a few moments contemplating them. I believe I DO feel ready for that.

    As I thought it through, I realized that the missing trait in both that list and in the guys who have been showing up is FUN.

    The guy I was engaged to in college, Mark, had all of those traits, PLUS fun. TN man thinks I sabotaged that relationship (I broke it off and slept with our boss) because it was “too good to be true” — didn’t fit my unconscious need to have an unhappy relationship.

    TN man fits some of those things, but not the most important ones, esp. “genuinely wants a lifelong commitment with you and deals with his fear around it in order to be with you”!

    But he is really fun, like Mark was.

    Fun guys with all those other traits are not showing up.

    Haha. Does that mean I am not fun??? TN man tells me I am very fun. My friends think I am fun.


  39.  #39Lucy on April 19, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    I have fun by myself, too.

  40.  #40Daria on April 19, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    Rachel – whoa! i feel megaoverwhelmed and I’m a woman!

    this is the time for a feeling message.

    that means short

    its two or three lines, and then a what do you think


    whoa i feel shocked. i feel terrible. i feel confused and abandoned when im feeling down… and honestly I feel kind of angry. what do you think?

    (because I would feel angry and my guess is you really do too – my guess is ANYONE would feel angry to feel left in the middle of asking to be held when they were upset )

    ps – take out all you’s take out all you must feel not understood blah blah

    NO explaining. just feeling.

  41.  #41Daria on April 19, 2010 at 10:21 pm


    i miss this papi. this is cuz of my driving to him insn it grr

    an he’s talkin to some other girls online, and i dont really feel jealous, i feel curious ok a lil jealous

    i really feel MAD

    i feel mad that he doesnt have a car and im now missing him

    ger ber ber ber baby

  42.  #42Lucy on April 19, 2010 at 10:25 pm

    Hey Daria. I feel mad tonight too. (((Hugs)))

  43.  #43Tina on April 20, 2010 at 3:09 am

    I talked to “truck man” on the phone yesterday, I’ve missed his calls but not three days in a row! oh my 🙂 his first question was “is everything alright between us? ” Ive been really busy in the last week and taking care of “my business”. I’ve been out meeting with lots of men because I have too, hehe. anyway, I had to meet with a ‘financial supporter” he was freaking out , he kept it cool though 🙂 who’s financially supporting you? who is doing that? I couldn’t get an answer out, I told him, you know what im doing and I’m starting to feel defensive, I don’t like feeling defensive. His energy changed a lot! During our conversation , I could recognize where and when he was doing or trying to make it all about him! That energy exchange is very tricky! He complained his arm was sore, that he has a cold, talked about him,him,him lol. I was beginning to feel where I would start becoming his mom! ugh! I said something random like ” I like the color pink ” I said I feel calm” lol so the convo changes, to him saying oh I;m so proud of you, blah blah blah. I told him “you have helped me , I feel really good having a vehicle, thank you. I’m working with a “feminine energy” man lol, I made the coffee but I didnt make it for him, I keep asking him “what do you think?” he keeps throwing it back to me ugh! its a weird dance were having, . Friday, I’m asked to go out to dinner with another man , I said , yes, I will be very hungry and I have no money, thank you for asking so yeah ugh! so much to do…

    I am still having “exclusive sex and romantic dating” with truck man, the tools however come in handy working around a lot of men, I’m really busy digging around in my tool box 🙂 I feel excited, I feel turned on woohooo!

  44.  #44Lori on April 20, 2010 at 5:36 am


    I feel curious about Mr. Fab Kisser’s “bad attitude”. Can you elaborate on that?

  45.  #45Simply Shannon on April 20, 2010 at 6:49 am

    Gosh! Such a mix of things here and I can relate to so much of it.

    First, J-Rock, you look super cute! I love the pic and love the glasses!

    Lucy, I feel the same about the quality of guys. Most of the guys showing up have good qualities but I don’t feel attracted. I feel BORED. So weird. Maybe it’s that all of the guys are now on the same playing field and I want one (just ONE please) to really wow me.

    Daria: I had the same thing happen last night. I saw Mr. Fab Kisser was “online now” on Match for good bit of time. (Yes I was checking and I don’t normally do that. Funny how God gave me the “hint” to go check today.) I didn’t really feel angry or jealous. Well no, I take that back. I felt angry because he was so angry about me seeing other guys. Saying he couldn’t see anyone else while he was seeing me. I was so close to winking at him online to let him know I saw him. Eck.

    Tina: I have those conversations with Mr. Fab Kisser where it’s like “are you talking to the wall?” Conversation is so one sided… him, him, him. Zzzz. Boring! I feel proud reading your posts and seeing the dynamics. You are a rockstar!

    Lori: Bad attitude as in being a pessimist. I am an optimist at heart. I mostly believe all is gonna work out okay. He believes the exact opposite. I feel frustrated and just want to walk away from the conversation. And maybe it’s just not so much fun anymore. Friday night with Mr. Masculine Man, I laughed a LOT. I don’t laugh as much with Mr. Fab Kisser. It’s just weird. I don’t want to analyze it too much. I need to just start paying attention to my feelings in the moment and speaking them.

    The problem I’m having is understanding how to speak a feeling without blaming him. If the conversation is dull or I’m feeling bored or tired of the bad attitude, how do I say that without blaming him? I can’t even come up with a specific example but in the moment I know I feel bored and it’s a direct result of sitting there at dinner listening to him drone on and on about XYZ. So what could I say without blaming him? Ideas?

  46.  #46Simply Shannon on April 20, 2010 at 6:52 am

    SHUT UP. Ya’ll look at the message I got from Joel Osteen today. Ha!
    – – – – – –
    Iron Sharpens Iron


    “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another”
    (Proverbs 27:17, NIV)

    TODAY’S WORD from Joel and Victoria

    One of the best things I’ve learned is that God does not bring people into my life so I can make them just like me. God wants us to be different. He’s given us different personalities, different strengths, different hobbies and different looks. He’s made us all different so we can sharpen one another and cause each other to rise up higher in life.

    If you’re going to be happy and enjoy your relationships, you’ve got to learn how to appreciate the differences and learn from the people in your life. If you don’t focus on the right things, you’ll end up allowing the little irritations to cause you to become resentful. Remember, nobody is perfect. If you’re going to grow, you’ve got to be willing to overlook some things. Our assignment is not to fix people. Our assignment is to love people. Our assignment is to sharpen one another so we can move forward in the good plan God has prepared.


    Father God, thank You for the people You have placed in my life. Help me see them the way You see them. Help me to appreciate the ways we sharpen one another so that we can help each other fulfill Your plan for our lives. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.

  47.  #47Simply Shannon on April 20, 2010 at 6:53 am

    Okay, focus on the right things. So God, what are those? 🙂

  48.  #48Helen Warren on April 20, 2010 at 8:09 am

    Hi Rori, I ordered your Toxic Men CD program about 1 month ago. IT WORKS!!
    I listened to the tapes over and over, till I finally got it. I absolutely
    leaned back trying to figure out if my man was Toxic or if he could move
    towards me. I would have bet that he was extremely Toxic and NO chance of
    change. He was so controlling (and I only have myself to blame for letting
    him be that way in the relationship). I had hit bottom with the
    relationship, still had feelings for him, but was willing to leave if the
    tapes did not work — they were my last ditch effort. I always made
    everything nice and good for him and realized that I was not getting much at
    all in return. I have been in this relationship for 4 years. Right after I
    backed off from arguing and then always pleading with him to not be mad and
    then I started not caring about whatever negativity he sent my way (I
    actually went for a walk during one of these times and left his office
    during another) he went into SHOCK. Then, he came forward and I kept
    leaning back and standing strong!! I was so hungry when I was listening to
    your tapes, I couldn’t STOP listening and I got it! I absolutely feel like
    I’m with a different man. Unbelievable!! We do travel and have fun, but
    it was always on his terms as of everything else. He used to be so
    controlling of everything and manipulated me. I realized I wasn’t living to
    MY true potential….oh my God,,,the man can’t do enough for me now. I use
    the feeling messages…telling him what doesn’t FEEL good (in a gentle way)
    and he looks at me and acts all confused….I love it! I no longer argue
    back or engage or make him defensive. I totally understand your concept and
    it DOES WORK…He has continued to be this way as I have continued to be
    strong in who I am. NOT easy work that’s for sure, but the payoffs are
    fantastic. Even if he was TOXIC and did not change, I found myself and will
    not ever let go!! Thank you Rori, for helping me to see ME. I love all of
    your statements to women when you bring them back and say …It’s all about
    YOU, not him. That has saved me, because life is all about ME and loving
    ME, so I can honor my own spirit inside and be that beautiful person that
    God created. MANY BLESSINGS TO YOU FOR YOUR GREAT WORK!!! Love to you,

  49.  #49Val on April 20, 2010 at 8:29 am

    I am confused about circular dating. I have been in a relationship with a man for just short of two years who says he does not know what he wants right now but thinks he will be ready to move ahead once his financial issues are cleared up. I feel like I need to circular date but do I tell him I am going to do this or do I just do it????

  50.  #50Lucy on April 20, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Shannon– When I felt the way you described at dinner with a man, the word that felt right for me at that moment was TIRED. So, he was going on and on about boring, depressing stuff, and when he paused and looked at me, I said, “I feel tired.” He was surprised, but it kind of changed the vibe and the conversation for a few minutes, until I ended up having to say it again, at which time he said, “Well, then, let’s get out of here and walk over to Border’s.”

  51.  #51Simply Shannon on April 20, 2010 at 10:17 am

    Ha! Yes. I feel tired. I’m still not good with this non-blaming thing. I am a reflection of the people I’m with, so my attitude goes up and down depending on the people I’m around. If they are pissy, I feel pissy. If they are happy, I feel happy. Is that a problem? Is that where I’m going wrong? Not able to shift this in myself so that I’m happy /content no matter what?

    Funny when I write this stuff down, I kind of get the answers myself.

  52.  #52Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Oh Rori: I think I loved and appreciated this post more than any of your other ones. It really “spoke” to me. Thank you for it~! It is a topic all women need to know, regardless of how long we’ve been married.

    Right now, believe it or not, even after my h’s affair with some stripper, there is not anything I’d wish him to do differently. We are happily back together, at least for right now and things are really great. He even took me out to lunch yesterday for our post-poned anniversary—-22 years I might add. To one of my favorite type restaurants, (French) but in which he surprised me totally with, and we had such an awesome day. And I know we’re still in love, even after 22 years, and I am so thankful we’re back together. God IS GOOD. Of course there is so much I am learning and still need to learn here, as far as my relating techniques, and I have grown so much in just being here on this site. Of course I still want to buy many of your programs once I am employed again. Am happy to report I have many ovens on the fire here, and know I will, find work again soon. YAY, can’t wait!

    Anyway, Rori, I really thank you for this thread especially.

    Luv, and God’s blessings,

  53.  #53Lucy on April 20, 2010 at 10:26 am

    IMO, Shannon, I feel most attracted to men who bring out the best in me, make me feel good in their presence. So if a pissy guy is bringing out “pissy” in me, then he feels like not the right guy for me. If a pissy guy brings out lightness and contentment in me as a balancing response that enables me to still feel good in his presence, then that’s a different story. Maybe it is a chemistry thing. But I find that with some men, I really like who I am with them, no matter what is going on, and with other men, I just don’t like me as much when I’m around them.

    I want the ones who bring out the best in me.

  54.  #54Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Dear Simply Shannon:

    I really like Joel Osteen, and one of the best all time books I have ever read was his “Becoming a Better You”. I highly recommend it here to all ladies. I has helped my life just soooo much.

    I feel thrilled Shannon you know of Joel Osteen.

    He is awesome, and a real encourager and mentor.

    God Bless~

  55.  #55Pam on April 20, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Hi Jackie – I’ve been reading thru the posts today and yours struck a cord with me. I have “walked away” from my guy several times recently only to go back. I’ve been in a relationship with a man who is emotionally unavailable for almost 2 years. He proposed at Christmas but right after that I discovered he was on a dating website and I gave him the ring back. The past 3.5 months have been difficult. I have done all of the tools, leaning back, feeling messages, stopped all doing, and he steps up always but only for a very short time. He did something this past Sunday and I said “no more” to myself. I went to his house, took my things and when I was leaving, he said “please don’t do this, I think your making a mistake”. I said I needed to take the week to think about things. My intention was to actually go thru the week with no communication because I always give in! So, I emailed him on Mon and said that I would be at a certain hotel on Fri night if he wanted to meet me there to talk. He emailed me back saying Friday was not good for him, but Sat was and “thank you for the offer”. For 2 years our relationship has revolved around his schedule and I refuse to give in this time. I emailed that if he did not show by 7pm, then I would assume he wasn’t coming and that he made his decision. I just for once want to come first in his life. So it is day 2 and he has not contacted me. I felt great yesterday but am really struggling today. I feel sad. I went out at lunch to buy new clothes and just sat in the parking lot crying. Why – because he all I want is for him to reach out to me and tell me how much he loves me and misses me. Sorry that this is so long – I just wanted you to know that it seems as if I am going thru the same thing as you. It’s the sadness that is getting to me. It’s hard once I’m down to pick myself back up again and know that everything is going to be ok without him.

  56.  #56Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 10:39 am

    Dear Lucy:

    Even though many men may “meet the criteria” you want, it still doesn’t mean you have “a connection”
    This is in answer to your question above friend.

    God Bless!


  57.  #57Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Dear Pam:

    Drop the louse, is my advice. If he is on some “dating website” he is not ready for a real relationship, like you are; tell him goodbye. And now, He is jerk.

    IMO it would be different if you were married and had kids, but from what I can see it is not.

    I’d love to hear more of your situation.

  58.  #58Pam on April 20, 2010 at 10:55 am

    Ingrid – I am trying! I think it’s me now that needs to believe I deserve a healthy relationship. I realized last night that “love” to me comes in the form of being emotionally unavailabe, distant, rejected, unheard, ignored – all from my childhood. So as my guy is all of these things, so I felt “love”. But I have been growing and changing as I’ve recently started yoga which has helped me get in touch with these internal battles and I do get what is happening here and why it’s so difficult to walk away because the “old” Pam feels the loss of “love” but the new Pam just knows deep down that there is a better kind of healthy love out there for me. I don’t want to burden my friends with all my sadness so coming to this blog has been very helpful. I don’t often write but I read almost every day and I find encouragement from everyone’s stories – good and bad. I think the key for me is to really, really believe I am deserving of love. It’s a tough one……

  59.  #59Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 11:02 am

    dear Pam:

    You ARE so very special, and you do deserve love. Just always remember how much God loves You. This will give you the courage to move forward. It did for me.

  60.  #60tinque on April 20, 2010 at 11:04 am

    Pam – ““love” to me comes in the form of being emotionally unavailabe, distant, rejected, unheard, ignored – all from my childhood. So as my guy is all of these things, so I felt “love”.”

    This is exactly it. It IS tough to rewire neural connections, to reprogram old tapes, but just coming to the realizations you did is a HUGE piece of this. And it IS possible. Yay you!!!
    And about your friends, they may be more open to you than you might think. If you have one or two really close ones, confide in them.
    When I was at my lowest, my dear friends never lost patience with me as over and over again I lamented the same things.

  61.  #61Pam on April 20, 2010 at 11:18 am

    This is why I love this site! Your encouragement is so powerful! Thank you.

    Tinque – I do understand this and am diligently working thru letting this “storyline” go. Some days I am stronger – today is not one of them. Today I am in the valley because I know that he will not show on Friday night and it is going to be painful. I’m wondering now if I should have even set myself up for this certain dissapointment. Trying to figure out if there is a part of me that still hopes he can change and show me he loves me or am I looking for a final excuse to end it. Or final proof in my mind that he just can’t be what I need him to be. The very cool thing is I would not have just realized these very thoughts if not for this site……So again – thank you!

  62.  #62Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Val – Welcome, and just start slow. Date Yourself, practice flirting and interacting with men. There’s an amazing amount of Circular Dating you can do in just short interactions in your daily lives that will lift your spirits, teach you new things about yourself, help you shift your vibe and learn to use Feeling Messages naturally, and make you feel really, really good. It’s totally reasonable that what he says is true, and that his financial situation is holding him back…however – waiting for that to happen will make you feel unsteady (as you know…). When someone asks you out for a lunch or walking or sitting around an outdoor plaza or coffee date, and you feel weird about it..that’s when you can tell your ‘boyfriend” that you will be accepting lunch and coffee dates and some invitations to keep yourself sane and keep your options open while he’s deciding what he’d like to do with you, but that you will not sleep with anyone but him. Love, Rori

  63.  #63Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Helen, Welcome, and thank you SO much for your story. I love the Toxic Men program, and I’m so glad it’s worked for you…Love, Rori

  64.  #64Pam on April 20, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Ingrid – Sorry. No we are not married. We are both divorced. We have been together for what would have been 2 years in July. There were plenty of warning signs early in our relationship that I ignored. I’m good at that 🙂 The men in my life have all been in some way unavailable, not good for me. Even this last time, I was sure I got it right but I didn’t. But I was also doing the same things over and over which I was not aware of until I read Rori’s ebook, Toxic men CD’s and Modern Siren. They all truly changed the way I was thinking. But it’s only been a few months of re-programming how I respond and in the process I am probably going to lose my guy but maybe in the end it will the best thing for me.

  65.  #65tinque on April 20, 2010 at 11:34 am

    Pam – Even though you are feeling low today, and believe me these days are a normal part of growth, a normal part of life, you seemed to have gained a wonderful new perspective. No matter what happens or doesn’t happen with this man, you will still have this. You will still have YOU.

  66.  #66Pam on April 20, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Tinque – And that’s the part I need to believe in – me.

    I would like to share these words as encouragement:

    “For those of us with a hunger to know the truth, painful emotions are like flags going up to say, “Your stuck!” We regard disappointment, irritation, jealousy, sadness and fear as moments that show us where we’re holding back, how we’re shutting down. Such uncomfortable feelings are messages that tell us to perk up and lean into a situation when we’d rather cave in and back away. When the red flag goes up, we have an opportunity: we can stay with our painful emotion instead of spinning out. Staying is how we get the hang of gently catching ourselves when we’re about to let resentment harden into blame, righteousness or alienation.”

    My terribly sad day has turned around into a hopeful one with possibilities thanks to this venue. Sometimes just getting things out is the step it takes to see past the sadness.

  67.  #67TW on April 20, 2010 at 12:41 pm


    I am trying to go back and read everyone’s post to see what is going on but I have a question about power speeches. When you write on and you relay it to your ex or man that you want to be with or are with, can you read it word for work from the paper you wrote it or typed it on or do you have to try to remember it all. I tend to forget half of the things that I need to say in the moment you know.

  68.  #68Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 12:46 pm


    Loved your post #66 above~

    Thanks for it~

  69.  #69tinque on April 20, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    TW – It has more impact if you can just say it, another reason to keep it short; aside from that you will lose his attention if it’s long.

  70.  #70TW on April 20, 2010 at 12:54 pm


    That makes sense I just fear that I am going to forget what I really want to say you know. My attention span is not good either

  71.  #71Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    Ingrid, I love you, and yet your most current comment quoting Scripture makes me quite uncomfortable, as well as making many, many in this community angry and uncomfortable (they’ve contacted me privately) and I do not wish for that to happen, and so I have deleted it. I need to leave religion out of this blog. This feels like spam to me – that you are selling your brand of God just as much as if you were selling Viagra – and I will treat it is such. It’s sort of like me walking into your home and telling you what you must be. I feel quite disrespected. This is a very closely watched community, and I do not wish to allow religion to enter into it. I will be monitoring your comments now. Please address me personally by email if you wish to chastise me for this…Please join a Christian blog if that is your primary view. I’m happy for your happiness in your marriage now, and applaud all that you are, but if you cannot abide by my request to restrain your religious enthusiasm, I will be monitoring. Warmly, and with respect, Rori

  72.  #72tinque on April 20, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    TW – When I first had to deliver my speeches, I would be terrified. I would compose them, write and say them over and over again to myself sometimes for days before I summoned the courage to spit it out.
    Yes I forgot bits, but the essence was always there as it will be with you.
    If you feel really nervous, say so. Tell him you feel nervous saying all of this. Keep the words written nearby if this helps. Sometimes just having them in hand will not only help relax you, it will keep the words in your head better, kind of like they’re transimitting themselves into you via your hand.

  73.  #73Evan Marc Katz on April 20, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    I’m inspired reading the posts from all of you amazing women who really hear Rori’s message. And thank you, Rori, for using my video as a springboard to this juicy conversation. The most concise way to put it is that you don’t ATTRACT bad men, you ACCEPT bad men. And, once you stop, you’ll never go back.

    Here’s the video that spurred this dialogue. Keep up the great work, ladies. The right man will appreciate how amazing you are…

  74.  #74TW on April 20, 2010 at 1:45 pm


    That makes sense. I am going to try writing a little something later tonight and then I will post it. I am getting ready to leave work.

  75.  #75Simply Shannon on April 20, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    Eek. Rori, I feel weird reading your message to Ingrid, mainly because I just posted about Joel Osteen above and talk about God quite frequently in my posts. I don’t want to “sell” God to anyone. I’m posting because this is a huge part of my life. It feels good to share my life, which includes these signs throughout the day. I could say the signs come from the “Universe” but that wouldn’t feel authentic to me. What do you think? I’m trying to gauge how far this goes and to make sure I’m respecting the rules here.

  76.  #76Simply Shannon on April 20, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    Lucy: Re your post #53. Yes, this feels right. Am I “more” in his presence or “less”? This will be with me when I’m with him this evening. Thank you!

    TW: I’ve asked this exact question in the past. The thing about reading a speech is that it doesn’t give him a chance to stop you as you go. Yes, that will take you off your plan but the point is not to unload it all at one time to clear the deck. It might feel better to take one thing at a time and work that issue. Instead of blasting him with a fire hydrant’s worth of info, give him a glass of water at a time. Otherwise, HE might need to take notes in order to address everything you said. Make sense? This is about how you feel. Right now I’m sensing you feel nervous and scared, like this speech will somehow make or break your relationship and your forever after. Am I right?

  77.  #77Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Shannon, I sent you a personal message when I made the post – here’s what I wrote to you, perhaps it would be a helpful follow up for all here so you know where I’m coming from, and that Ingrid and I have talked by personal email before, and so this was a special case with her posts. I wrote to you: “Shannon, this is Rori. I…wanted to let you know that I answered Ingrid rather firmly about including religious references…and I so wanted to make sure you didn’t think I was referring in any way to you. You are lovely, I love hearing about whatever you wish to talk about. I have nothing but respect and love for all religions, and especially enjoy the company of many evangelical Christians, and that yet I felt … “spirituality” was moving way too forcefully into specific “religion” for me in Ingrid’s posts, also way too far into boy energy around it – almost to the point where it might be intimidating to some…. Please let me know personally if I’ve offended you in any way…I hope not” Please, Shannon – feel free to mention God anytime you wish…In your voice – and in everyone else’s here I’ve heard so far, it feels good. I just wanted to set some rules for my own comfort level – and so women of so many other religious affiliations here, including athiest and agnostic and generally “spiritual” could feel comfortable. I know that no one would feel comfortable with that kind of serious discussion going on, and I wanted to make sure it didn’t go that way. I do not mind links to Joel Osteen or even to bible verses – it’s just the tone and intent that concerned me. It’s weird, I know – but I have to be the boy here! My monitoring is mostly concerned with the primary reason this blog, and I, serve – that of the feminine, receiving principle, along with the total ability to have boundaries, whatever they are for each of us. I respond to my own comfort level, and hope this works for you all and makes you feel actually freer rather than more restricted…feel free to weigh in, here – if I’ve made an error, I’ll be the first to turn it around. Love, Rori

  78.  #78Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    Evan, this is great, thank you – and to all – I just read Evan’s new book – “Why He Disappeared” – and it’s gangbusters. Totally male voice saying the truth, and explaining it clearly. Love, Rori

  79.  #79Liz on April 20, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    Hi Siena, re: 26,
    I enjoyed your comments about going out with on another date with the boy you may/may not feel icky about. I had a similar scenario after a second date with a Match Boy. I was relatively new to this site, and after agonizing over how to respond to his 3rd date invite, I decided to go with the feeling message “thanks, but no thanks”….I included the exact email exchange below should anyone be interested in cribbing my email to the Boy. But, also to share the reply he sent me back….which nearly made my heart soar. It was such a relief, and learning experience, to have this type of response from my first public use of a “feeling” message. So, like Siena, I chalked it up to an experience that his message for me was that being honest with feeling messages is a winner! Thanks Rori 🙂

    Hi Boy,
    I enjoyed our Thursday outing, although I want to be upfront that I don’t feel the romantic inclinations I’d like to for making this a match going forward. I feel bummed as I’ve definitely enjoyed meeting and talking with you.

    I wish you all the best Boy. Take care, Liz
    I appreciate your honesty Liz. No worries. You can’t force the chemistry if it’s not there. Best of luck in your search as well. Cheers, Boy

  80.  #80Siena on April 20, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    Liz, my date had the same type of response. It felt good to receive it, mostly because some part of me expected an attack (why, I don’t know), and so to just get a “OK, that’s fine” response felt good.

    The title of Evan’s book triggers me. I feel sad reading that title. I don’t want to ever have to read that book ever ever ever! I want that so far out of my reality that it doesn’t even register on my radar!

  81.  #81Elayne on April 20, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    I have been reading this blog for a couple of months now, and love, love, love it. I like reading the comments too, as it seems like they contain so many revelations!

    This post was spot-on for me. I have been dating a guy for a couple of months who is in and out, in and out of my life, calls when he feels like it, etc. I know that he will resurface as surely and he will leave.

    The issue I’m having is related to whether I really want to bother with him anymore. Rori is right that when you aren’t overfunctioning by calling, texting, etc., that you get an opportunity to decide if you even want to date the guy. And so that’s where I find myself, and it was synchronistic that Rori posted this at a time where I felt like I needed to decide whether I want to “fix” this man. I am annoyed that he hasn’t figured it out yet.

    Oh, and let me just admit here that the ideas on this blog have caused me to seriously question my old, outworn ideas about men, such as “Men just want sex” “men are liars,” etc.

    For awhile after I started dating this guy, I cut him a lot of slack because like everyone else, he truly has a lot going on. But it’s been four months of in and out and I’m tired of it.

    I’m curious as to how you other ladies handle this stuff….I love my boy energy and run a business and am having a lot of fun growing the business, making decisions, etc., but is it necessary to be decisive in situations with men? Is that using boy energy when I should be using girl energy?

    I know Rori says to “crowd him out” but why do I feel the need to just be blunt with him and tell him to get lost because I’m pissed that he’s not doing what I want him to do? Is this normal? Resistance? I did struggle with the whole “batting my eyelashes and WAITING for the man” at first but jeez…this waiting around thing seems like it’s taking FOR-EV-ER! I realize that being direct with men scares them, and they are sometimes clueless, but in this case, I think this guy knows that his behavior is bothering me.

    It’s easy to not call or contact him…it’s really easy to act like I don’t care, and that’s one of my issues to work out.

    I’m stuck between being really honest with him about my feelings, or just being generally unavailable next time until he figures it out on his own, or just blowing him off, not taking or returning his calls, etc.

    What about the idea that if he can’t get his stuff together within a reasonable amount of time, he just isn’t good enough? It’s been four months punctuated with hearing from him a couple times a week, then he travels and I don’t hear from him at all for two weeks, then he just can’t wait to see me, and then he disappears. And repeats monthly.

    Oh, I am circular dating and the other guy seems to have the same issues! Maybe it’s me…

    Ladies? Comments? Suggestions?

    Much love and respect to all you Sirens,

  82.  #82Lucy on April 20, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Siena– What’s the title of his book?

  83.  #83Siena on April 20, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    Lucy, “Why He Disappeared”

  84.  #84Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    Dear Rori:

    I will try to only use “feeling messages” from now on in my posts, for after all it is why I am here, too, just like all the women, to learn, and use all your tools. Thank you. I cannot guarantee though I won’t say “God Bless You” to someone, if it is my innermost feeling. Will this be OK with you?

    Thank you Rori~


  85.  #85Ingrid on April 20, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Shannon: I love Joel Osteen’s Book, “Becoming a Better You”. It is simply awesome.

    Probably on my top 5 list for the past year.

  86.  #86TW on April 20, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    simply Shannon-

    I want to address Rori’s comment to you before I address the one you made to me. Anyway, Rori and I had a conversation about religion maybe a week or so ago and it started with one of Ingrid’s post. Religion is a touchy subject for some because it is so black and white, no gray area. It has been used against people in respects of if you do not do this you are going to hell and we both know that is not true. Rori also knows that I am a deeply rooted Christian woman who loves God and I am not ashamed nor afraid to tell people that but I also respect the fact that others do not and I do not attack them or try to persuade them otherwise you know. She is coming from a place of personal comfort like when she tells us not to worry about a man’s feelings just be in our own. Religion for her may work the same way. Just because you believe what you believe she respects you for it because you respect the difference in her. You get it. Sharing a Bible verse with someone and throwing one at them are two totally different things you know. You shared a verse with someone out of a personal issue that you were dealing with today… Notice I said sharing and not throwing. See the difference. Somehow Ingrid’s post seemed to come from a place of throwing which triggers some people you know. Rori wants you to express yourself in that same manner in which you have been doing. It is all about respect and love here and she wants everyone to feel safe and that is why she sent the message to you so that you feel safe to express yourself in the same manner if that is what is on your heart. She actually thanked me for my post. I share totally different views with Rori about religion and she knows it but we do not disrespect each other about it. If she does not believe in God… Okay. There is nothing I can do about that but that does not mean that we can not care for each other and love each other you know. She is really not coming at you from a bad place. She just wants to make sure you understand that she was not personally attacking you which I feel was really nice of her. I have a lot of respect for her for that.

    Now onto what you wrote to me.. I feel as if I say the wrong thing it is going to get even worse and not better so why bother with it. Then too I get your point by it being too much to digest because I have a short attention span. I have to ponder on that one for a while. I was texting him back and forth last night and he was supposed to come over but fell asleep and did not show but he woke up in the middle of the night and text me to let me know that he was sorry and that he fell asleep. I guess to let me know that he was not avoiding me or something like that but that is for him to figure out not me. I have my own mess to deal with.

  87.  #87Vickie on April 20, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    Dear Rori, I really appreciate all of your wisdom. It is as though you are following my relationship. I’ve been so sad, and your comments have been so helpful during those times. I’ve been divorced for 10 years, and the guy I am/was dating have known for the same. But we just started dating 5 months ago. The problem is he travels and doesn’t call me during the week (maybe once); he’s never given me a compliment (once he did say hello gorgeous); and he very seldom takes me out. Im 54, he’s a very handsome 60 and he does well finanacially. I do okay myself but am currently unemployed. The last time we were together, I brought up his lack of calls and plans to go out. He got very angry and end up blaming me for everything. But said he wished he didn’t care so much, and that I push him away. And yes we went to bed with my arm over his back. That was over a week ago, and he’s only called once. We see each other every other weekend because he has a young son. We should see each other this weekend, but haven’t heard from him. Should I call?
    Also, don’t know what books to buy from you. I am losing my confidence in dating, which kind of frightens me. When I was younger, the men were coming in the front door, one out the back door. Also, need help in knowing when the right time to have sex in an adult relationship. One month, after a commitment, when? Again thank you for all of your wonderful insight. Vickie

  88.  #88Jackie on April 20, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    Pam, thank-you for sharing your story and hugs to you. I feel badly that you are struggling through similar things that I am 🙁 . At the same time it feels good to hear that I’m not the only one who has slid backwards. I truly appreciate you responding so that I don’t feel so alone. I know it happens to everyone, its a normal part of change, but it feels good to be validated. Good luck to you 🙂 .

  89.  #89Tk on April 20, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    Hi Everyone..
    Its good to know once again in life we are not alone.. Even when i think my situation is unique and that no one else could possibly be going thru or feeling the way i am.. Not exactly anyway.. HA!!! it is comforting and reasurring to know you are all here, struggling too, Sorry, but it is :0)
    Anywho i had an amazing boyfriend who chased me endlessly, he is one off those greek adonis looking men, but Jamaican.. I was instantly attracted to him but didnt take him seriously because he was soo good looking and 13yrs younger.. And because i was used to so many players out there.. Anyway he kept pursuing me, joining the same gym, even coming to dance class with me.. We started dating, but when i would tell people about him , looks, age etc. I would say, I know i will get my heart broken but its fun for now.. (cover up for future embarressments if this did happen, of course).
    After seeing each other as girlfriend/boyfriend for only 3 weeks he had to move out of his apartment so i said stay wth me until u find something else. Of course he never moved out… We did everything together, one of those good looking couples that everyone admired and wanted to b like. We went to vanuatu after 6 months and he asked me to Marry him in the pool with his arms wrapped around me and whispering in my ear.. What did i do, pulled back and said, Your not serious tho.. Of course then he said, well no but i would be if i had a ring….
    What a dits i am.. And you know only now 2 yrs later with Roris help do i see my error… Wow i am such a male in every sense haha..
    We in the last 2 years still do everything together but it started feeling more like a friendship than a lover partnership.. sex stopped completely from his side, he helps around the house without me asking, everyday, always asking , What can i do for you.. I knew he still loved me but he stopped being emotionly connected to me completely. Even started showing attention to another girl at the gym..
    Now dont get me wrong he has a bad, bad temper.. not as in hitting or anything, but everything frustrates him and he started blaming me for everything… I was soo confused,i stood up for myself, when that didnt work, i became passive,letting him walk all over me, when that didnt work and not wanting to lose this one , i soooo over compensated.. becoming the perfect girlfriend, and i do mean perfect. Cooking amazing meals, being sexy,available for sex anytime, clean house,listening to him talk about his day, ignoring the yelling swearing conversations he uses to explain himself and his day, and….. Nothing.. He was extremely happy , of course, who wouldnt be,bit no romance, no sex, just this friendship fake feeling.. I was jumping between being his best friend and being his mother.. SHIT!!!! Then…. i gave up and became depressed inside but witha smile on my face for him…
    HELP!!!! Then… i found rori… and i bought the e- book, What did i have to lose, this was 3 weeks ago..
    I did everything she said to do or not to… one day later my man put his hand in mine when we were walking, i was shocked, i didnt even realise until that moment that he had stopped. the next morning he txt me from work, first, as i had stopped, saying goodmorning beautiful, O my got in 2 and a half years he`d never done this.. that night he initiated sex… And i have to admit for me it was the first time i felt completely loved and inlove thru the sexual experience… I leaned back when we talked and HE brought up buying an engagement ring, and actively went out himself to look and enquire, made dates for us to go together and look and now i look down at my finger and there is a big beautiful diamond on it that we cant afford but that i am worth it!!!!! O my God….
    I just sent him this txt after reading this blog,
    Am thinking about when u proposed to me in Vanuatu in th pool and my instant reaction was, ur not serious. I no now that u were and that it came from your heart in an outburst, th way it should be. I wanted to say sorry for that and that it was actually my dream proposal and ….. YES!!!! i will marry you. I love you and you r romantic and my perfect man. Cant wait to kiss you xx..

    I hope i haven`t bored u all, i am just happy and thought this could help.. I ordered Rori reconnecting your relationship program 2 weeks ago as i know how easy it is to fall back into old patterns.. cant wait to recieve it :0)
    Goodluck everyone
    sorry if there r spelling mistakes as i am writing this so fast from my heart and it doesn`t always knoe how to spell, just FEEL

  90.  #90Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    Totally okay – and God Bless you, too, Love, Rori

  91.  #91Simply Shannon on April 20, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    Rori, Thank you again for the email! I really appreciate it and all that you do. I feel good with all that you said. I know religion is a trigger for a lot of people (myself included).

    Ingrid, I hope you feel okay too and will continue to share here. Your posts are challenging and intriguing. I feel excited to see you continue on your journey here.

    The irony of all of this is that I had to speak with a friend today who is very religious but in some horrible circumstances. I realized quickly that her situation was beyond my capacity to help (other than listening and praying for her). I feel embarrassed to admit that listening to her quote scripture felt yucky. I mean, if *I* were in her position I would feel MAD at God… it all just felt fake. And I felt disconnected. The insides couldn’t possibly match the outsides. In that moment, I imagined that’s what men feel like when we aren’t honest with them.

    And TW, thank you for the post as well! I don’t feel attacked here at all. I feel good.

    Good night sweet sirens! Shannon

  92.  #92Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 9:19 pm

    Tk, Welcome – and thank you for your FABULOUS story!! Love, Rori

  93.  #93Georgia on April 20, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    I have been trying hard to get my man to be kind and loving to me and sometimes he was, but often he wasnt’t. And as much as I didn’t want to show my dissatisfaction, I was not always able to do do so. And the other day I couldn’t stop myself from “forcing” a discussion and now he has left me, saying that he just couldn’t make me happy and that was making him miserable (just as you say Rory). He says his feelings for me haven ‘t changed and he still wants to remain friends and see me, but that he no longer wants the responsibility of my happiness. He says I should find a man less selfish than him, but when I say I will, he doesn’t like it. It seems that part of him wants to keep hold of me because he KNOWS that I am a good woman and that he is really loosing something tremendously important to him. I am the first woman he has really opened up to emotionally and he feels loved and accepted by me and he is able to be totally himself with me, but sadly that also means he is not really attracted to me sexually (and I AM “hot” and beautiful) because somehow he is used to distance in sex. From the very first time, sex was always without any eye contact or stroking (whereas he was incredibly affectionate otherwise, putting his arm around me all night, holding my hand in public etc.) and always from behind and I think what that says is that there is a lot of fear im him, like he needs to hold back in that way to feel safe.

    Anyway, the fact is I still love him (I do think he is a “diamond in the rough”) and I can’t bear the thought of not being with him. Is there anything I can do now? I agreed to the friend’s bit, but I know it will be incredibly hard and I think impossible if he did start seeing another woman, but as long as he doesn’t, is there a chance that he gets his desire to be with me back if he no longer feels under such pressure? How do I play this?

    With much love to all you amzing women!

  94.  #94Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 11:12 pm

    Georgia, Welcome, and I know we can help you here…”training” a man to be kind and good doesn’t look like training at all, because, bottom line it’s genuinely appreciating him for what he DOES do that you like, respecting him as a person (if you do), and trusting him to run his own life (hard as that is when you don’t like the way he’s running it). The cure for you here is Circular Dating, so you can practice doing all the Tools that will help you feel in control of YOURSELF, and feel good and carefree with a man. Love, Rori

  95.  #95Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 11:21 pm

    Vickie, Welcome, and there is no “rule” about sex except for how you feel. If you think you might be having sex before you feel relaxed and happy with a man – then you’re doing it to “get” something or to try to cement the relationship – and that won’t work. It’ll feel bad to you. Sex is part of the progression of a relationship – and sometimes it takes practicing following your intuition in new and different ways to find out what’s best for you. Start with the ebook – it will give you the basics you need to shift your energy…and that will bring more men to you automatically. Getting out where men can find you is a full-time job…Circular Dating will help you make the most out of every interaction, so the process will go faster and be more fun. We’ll all help you do this and get your confidence back! Love, Rori

  96.  #96Rori Raye on April 20, 2010 at 11:26 pm

    Elayne, Welcome, and direct and honest are great – that’s the way to go – but the words you use and the energy behind your words, and the voice that delivers the words all make a huge difference in how what you’re saying comes across. You want to be honest, open, warm. You want to be about your own feelings, and absolutely unconcerned about what he does – except how you feel around it. A man who’s “in and out” is fine to date – If you truly are dating other men. If you’re just “pretending” to Circular Date – you’ll still feel zeroed in on the one guy, and push everything, including your expectations, out of shape. The Tools to start getting this are in the ebook, and there’s a lot here to help you practice. Love, Rori

  97.  #97mary on April 20, 2010 at 11:59 pm

    Wow, Rori. I love how you’re interacting with everyone! I feel respect and admiration and good feelings towards you because of the way you talked with Ingrid and Simply Shannon about religion, and the way you separated proselytizing (as boy energy) from other general musings and (girl energy) discussions about God.

    Many of my issues with guys are about sex, from a religious perspective, so it has been amazing and wonderful to read the comments of others who are working these things through in their lives, too. I’m so glad that these discussions will continue.

    Simply Shannon, I felt affirmed and validated when I read about your feelings regarding sex, and how they changed after your spiritual awakening. And also I felt extremely interested and curious about Erika’s and Daria’s differing points of view, too.

    I’m in the process of going over beliefs that I formed when I was sixteen or seventeen and wondering if they hold any validity for me today… and it’s a rewarding thing to do. The blog is a catalyst that furthers this process, almost without effort! Thanks, Rori. What a wonderful gift you’ve given to me.

  98.  #98Spider on April 21, 2010 at 12:50 am

    I ordered the Toxic Men CDs and am patiently waiting. Can someone tell me if verbal abuse is always an incurable Toxic trait? I mean way beyond, “you’re a b*tch.” Like verbal tirades of vicious put downs and mental abuse (“None of your friends actually like you, except the ones that don’t know you. Once you’re done with your degree, you’ll be useless anyway…etc” and I’m giving you the mild stuff.). The first time it happened I thought I might have a nervous breakdown, and he begged for forgiveness. By the 10th time, I was yawning when he went off like that. By the 100th time, I was doing it back, sometimes before he got a single sentence out, and sometimes even with more cruelty. I’m a writer – I know my way around creative, invective speech.

    Our relationship became a war, and I blamed him for it, because my only other option, I thought, was to be a doormat. Believe me, “I feel hurt and angry when you attack me like that” didn’t slow this guy down. He broke it off, and how can I blame him. I miss him terribly and feel guilty for the times I attacked him. I also hate him terribly and am glad he is gone. And I’m very lonely.

  99.  #99Vickie on April 21, 2010 at 2:21 am

    Rori, thank you for your answer. Could you please take my last name off my post. I didn’t realize it would be posted. Thank you, Vickie

  100.  #100Daria on April 21, 2010 at 4:31 am

    I have two different men that look alike! A
    nd I almost had sex w one and then had sex w the other! Today. And amazing tool use keeping my vibe and using the Siena fear tool w the difficult one so that my base body vibe was deep and relaxed under his anxiousness so I got all I wanted which was mostly fears anyway. W man ttwo I felt my heart opening and sad and told him I feel not secure to fall in love he said u want to see me work hard I will asap I will morph into ur husband. We had sex no condm my period is due I told myself I’m rready to rely on my body timing. I came home an washd w vinegar water and put in neem oil. Now to get my pzy it is 3 dAys late it was becming reglar which I want. Sex hurt a lil at first reminded me of dmsn I think that traumatized my body hence the uti. Then my body relaxed an I felt good an comfy he felt too good lol. Yay! I’m getin to that point to where I’m about As close as I ever bnn to A man romantic aly an I’m fln anxious finding difficulty to express fear sad poppin up Am doin it tho. On itouch . Did my first toastmaster speech was freeform funny most ppl got it bi
    but one comment read that it was too silly like someone was impersonating a lil girl. Ouch! That’s my fear of how ppl see me and it showed up! Ffln trigerd to shme gross sad horror anger reminds me of DUI. Both men like my speech will post it here tomorrow.

  101.  #101TW on April 21, 2010 at 5:13 am

    Simply Shannon…

    I am glad you did not feel attacked because I would really miss you if you did not post any more.

  102.  #102TW on April 21, 2010 at 5:31 am


    I am so proud of you. You are so in tune with YOUR needs it is amazing. Well last night I did a power speech with my ex and it was so authentic that I can not even remember it. I just let my feelings flow and it was all about what I wanted and needed in the moment and he listened. When he got distant I would ask him all the time if he was seeing or sleeping with someone else and he would always say not and before we had sex I asked him did we need to start using protection and he said is there something you want to tell me or are trying to tell me and I said no.. Is there something you need to tell me and he said I tell you all the time that I am not with anyone else but you do not believe me and I was like wow. I did not even realize that I was repeatedly asking him the same question over and over again. That was crazy… After my speech I said what do you think and he looked at me and pulled me close to him and kissed me like never before and we made love for hours. I went in with no expectations and that was about it. It was a good feeling and not I can lean back and know that I did what felt good to me. He was not feeling well and I would tell so he wanted to go home and take meds so he could sleep in because I had to get up and go to work but before he left he just held me that in the bed and ran his fingers through my hair which I love and then he kissed me so passionately. I asked him before he left if he felt as though I should get my hair cut and he said it is you hair but I love women with long hair.

  103.  #103Lori on April 21, 2010 at 6:33 am


    How about something as simple as “I feel like talking about something fun/positive/exciting for a while.” when Mr. Fab Kisser pauses during a pessimistic droning session? That would feel good to me and not blaming him in any way and also not letting myself get dragged down by his negativity.

    I have the opposite problem with one of my CD guys. I have not agreed to exclusivity with any of them, and they all know how I feel about that, but one of them keeps “assuming the sale” and talking about things we are going to do together 5 years from now and how lucky he feels to be “my man”. He is really sweet and it feels good when he says sweet things to me that are in the moment, but it makes me feel uncomfortable when he assumes I have agreed to be with only him for the future when I haven’t. I just keep dating and living my life and he seems content with just his own fantasy of exclusivity and I’m not exactly sure how to handle this.

  104.  #104Pam on April 21, 2010 at 6:48 am

    Hi Rori – I am reaching out to you for advice on my “speech”. I am the girl with the dating website guy you responded to in March. As I become stronger at communicating in feeling messages (with slip ups!) and leaning back etc so to has my toxic man leaned forward and stepped up but it is only for brief periods. I do not feel a sincere change in him and his feelings towards me. On Sunday, we parted with the understanding that we would take a week apart to think (my idea). On Sunday night, I emailed him and told him he could meet me this Friday night at a hotel 2 hours away to talk. Part of me did this to see if I was important enough to him to take the time to do this (he is always “busy” and our entire relationship has revolved around his schedule. (I will try not to make this too wordy). I was struggling yesterday but managed to get thru the day and night and right before I was going to bed, he called. He said he couldn’t stand it anymore, had to talk to me, missed me every second of the day, he realizes he needs to admit when he’s wrong and he absolutely be there on Friday. I was stunned. I told him I felt good that he had called and was honest with me. He then said – please bring Molly (my dog) over tomorrow cause I miss her and let’s drive up to the motel together on Friday. He also said he needed to leave early on Sat as he had to get some things done. Soooo, this morning I am having these thoughts. First, I resent the fact that he is once again making his schedule a priority but I see this as an opportunity to once and for all get my speech right about what it is I need and want in my relationship. I am thinking of emailing him today and saying I want to stick to the original plan of meeting at the hotel as I had planned on using Sat to enjoy the lake, visit with some old friends and my brother etc and that if he had to leave early, I was quite comfortable with that but I had other things to do while there. There is a part of me that is afraid to tell him that but I really need to feel this sense of boundaries. The biggest thing I need help with is how to deliver my speech about what it is that is unacceptable to me that he does. Should I make a list of deal breakers in “a relationship” rather than bring up what he does so he does not feel I am attacking? I think this is my chance to get it right so any help would be appreciated. I’m not so sure I’m convinced he really has seen the light and is redeemable so this is really for me to learn how to start communicating the right way. Thank you!

  105.  #105Pam on April 21, 2010 at 7:06 am

    Rori – Here are the main problems with my guy:

    Ignoring me when I am at his house (getting up from dinner and starting to do the dishes leaving me sitting alone)

    When I stay over once a week, being in the same bed and him not touching me at all before falling asleep (not always but way too often)

    Him NEVER staying at my place; we always have to be at his house

    Almost zero romantic gestures for any reason, Valentine’s Day, my birthday, flowers for no reason, pretty much nothing. I was initially doing all that early on in the relationship but stopped about 5 months ago after I found your site

    Will never admit he is at fault or needs to make any changes

    Of course the dating website. He did unsubscribe but he’s never been honest about it. He inisists that he hardly used it and only once in a while did he look and just for the thrill. My brother told me last night that he told him in a conversation they had that it was a habit for him that he found really hard to break but he finally did once I discovered it.

    I am always low on his priority list; he has teenage daughters that he makes excuses to when he spends time with me (I have made every effort to include them but it has come to a point where they are being manipulative because he feels guilty being with me) – he has a recording studio in his house and practices with a band without fail every Wed night – he will take entire weekends to go up to Maine to the “man camp” with the guys but when it comes to spending the weekend or a weekend day with me, he chooses not to so as not to upset the girls.

    Ok, I am tired now of talking about all of this. I’m sorry I have written so much – just appreciate this place so I can do so.

  106.  #106Jeannette on April 21, 2010 at 7:27 am

    Pam, as Rori would say, “You’re a goddess” and you don’t deserve this sort of treatment. A man should at least some of the time put his arm around you before falling asleep, he should want to, give you gifts on occasion, just in general look for opportunities to be with you. He sounds emotionally distant and I know you want more than that. Get out there a CD! Okay?

  107.  #107Pam on April 21, 2010 at 7:32 am

    Thanks Jeannette. I know I don’t deserve this treatment and I no longer want it. I do feel as if this is my opportunity to practice speaking in a goddessy way. I so need help with that. I don’t expect that it will really change him, but it may be useful going forward so I don’t ever fall into that old pattern of doing and communicating. I truly want to become a siren!

  108.  #108tinque on April 21, 2010 at 8:03 am

    TW – This is awesome. All of it. Huge yay you!!!

  109.  #109TW on April 21, 2010 at 8:10 am


    Thank you my love.. I am just trying to do the right things for me without worrying about an outcome. Last night he told me that I think to much and that is so true because I think about thinking… lol! I started my speech with I am not trying to get you to fix anything, I just want you to listen and he did and afterwards I looked at him and I said what do you think and he gave me a smile and said you wanted me to listen and I did and then he kissed me and we made love again… lol… I was just in the moment now if we can keep this up then we will be okay because it was like when we first met but again I went at this with no expectations of him. It was all about me for once.. Even the sex…

  110.  #110tinque on April 21, 2010 at 8:37 am

    Yes, funny how that works isn’t it? Especially the sex, well no not really, but it’s way, way up there.

  111.  #111TW on April 21, 2010 at 8:48 am


    I was not in my head. I was in my heart and although everything did not come out like I PLANNED it to I got some things out just the same you know. I was so scared but I told him how scared I was and that it was hard for me and would he just hear me out because our personalities are so strong that we talk over each other a lot but that is all I wanted him to do was to listen and he did.

  112.  #112Jeannette on April 21, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Pam, it’s really hard to get to the place of being a siren at times. I came from a background where I did not feel any fatherly love. So I have been trying to make men love me all my life to make it up. You know what? I does not work. In fact it drives them a way. I get that now after years of doing the wrong things and over functioning. To be honest, it makes me feel like shit. I know it’s up to me to become a Goddess and I try and work at it every day. I have been out of my relationship now for several months and i get overwhelming feelings of lonliness. There is a batchelor who lives across the road (I don’t want anything to do with because of his drug habits), but lately he’s been having someone stay the night and I feel so along on my side of the street. But you know what, I would rather have no hands on me than the wrong set of hands. Know what I mean? I am trying with all my worth to FINALLY wait for the right person to come along. I am working at sharpening my Goddess skills and lo and behold it’s beginning to kick in. I am now starting to remember all the hurtful things my ex ever said and what he didn’t do for me. Even though it hurts to remind myself, it’s making me more and more aware that I deserve so much better. I don’t want to ever lie to myself and pretend that I am fine with a relationship anymore when I am not getting what I deserve. I AM a very loving and giving woman, I have nothing to prove to anyone and I need to remember daily my worth and that God does provide when the moment is right! God bless you and know with all certainty that YES, YOU ARE A GODDESS who iseverything a man could ever want…God bless!

  113.  #113Ingrid on April 21, 2010 at 9:23 am

    Thank u Shannon for your comment above. That makes me feel welcomed and appreciated~
    I totally can understand what is meant in sharing Scripture vs. throwing it in ones’ face. I guess perhaps I do come across this way sometimes, being a very strong and enthusiastic person naturally. I know I need to learn tact sometimes, even my husband and friends have told me this. That it may not be “what” I am saying, but “how” I say it. I am super enthusiastic about things that excite me in life. I want to learn to be more sensitive to “how” I express things.

    Thank you everyone~

  114.  #114Vickie on April 21, 2010 at 9:31 am

    The guy I’ve been dating for the past 5 months is someone I’ve wanted to date for many years. I thought I was ready to date him, but since we’ve been dating I lost my job and put my house on the market. I’m just not at the “top of my game”! Also, I’ve not had him stay at my house – only have stayed at his – because of the physical condition of my house. (My house is lived in, normal, but his is perfect. Literally, you can eat off the floor in his garage.) He never makes plans to go out because he says he travels all week. He’ll call me on Friday, and ask if I want to come over. He swears it’s not a bootie call. I know! By Friday I’m upset because I haven’t heard from him except thru a few casual texts. I go over to his house but I’m late because I’m less than excited. He says that he wishes we had met 30 years ago when he wanted to marry, that he hasn’t felt this way forever. So, do I not be concerned that he doesn’t call, go out, and he has NEVER given me a compliment. I had the talk with him last week and have only heard from him once. He responded strongly, and felt I have too high expectations and too much resistance. All I really want is a couple phone calls to connect during the week and go out once every 2 weeks for a burger! I haven’t called or text at all either. Feel like I need to send a feeling message.

    I tried CD but the other guy wanted to be intimate too. Felt this was too much of a betrayal. The Golden Rule, Do unto others…. Please help, not getting much done! Thanks to all of you for opening a window to your lives. I also don’t feel like sharing with my friends so appreciate this forum. Big Hugs & Big Love to All of You, Vickie

  115.  #115Siena on April 21, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Daria, I feel so happy that the fear tool helped you!

    You know what I just realized? I’ve quit smoking! It sounds like a silly thing to *just* realize, but I only smoked when I was so nervous about something and I couldn’t handle my emotions around it. It was a way to distract me and calm me down.

    But since coming to Siren Island and learning to express myself, I haven’t wanted a cigarette at all… in about 3 months. And I just read something online about quitting smoking, and a light bulb went on for me! I haven’t even THOUGHT about smoking in 3 months. Wow! I feel amazed!

  116.  #116Rori Raye on April 21, 2010 at 10:03 am

    Spider, Welcome, and the short version (Toxic Men will help you SO much…) is that you are attracted to and attract men like this. And that you STAYED with him. Toxic Men will teach you how to deliver “Power Speeches” that are likely very different from the way you responded before – and the part about you “begging forgiveness” is where your work is. You have a pattern and habit that are pushing you into situations like this – and Circular Dating is the way to change all that for yourself. We’ll help you…and the Tools in Toxic Men will give you what you need to know (you can simply use the quiz with every man you’ve ever had in your life – and you’ll get an instant “aha”) Love, Rori

  117.  #117Simply Shannon on April 21, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Siena! Congratulations! I just quit smoking too. It’s been right under three months for me. I had one over the weekend at some horse races we went to, and I didn’t even finish the whole thing. Just didn’t want it. Tooo crazy!

  118.  #118Rori Raye on April 21, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Ingrid, this is lovely, thank you…Love, Rori

  119.  #119dorothea on April 21, 2010 at 10:28 am

    I quit smoking for like 3 months now too! I lost track of exactly how long. I aint smoked ONCE since i said “i quit.”

  120.  #120Ingrid on April 21, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Dear Siena:

    That’s awesome—you quit smoking—-that a very positive thing….like learning more about yourself, and expressing your feelings, just getting in tune with them, replaced something negative! Waaay to go Siena~

  121.  #121Jennifer on April 21, 2010 at 10:51 am

    WOW. Rori, where was this post 2 years ago today when I really really needed it? But THANK GOD I found you and your wonderful products and blog… I got out of that unfullfilling, tortuous, tear filled, crappy long distance relationship (where I was totally in LOVE and he was in serious, fun, FOR NOW commitment and I was trapped and laser focused on him)….., moved, learned my lessons, circular dated like a MAD woman for a year, and found my current man who treats me like a Queen…He is
    open, emotionally available, generous, sexy and kind….I even find that when I pull back, which is pretty much all the time, he ALWAYS comes forward. We have been dating for four months and I NEVER initate ANYTHING….I have never ONCE even called him first or texted first, even to say an innocent HELLO! Rori, with all your awesome tools, used on the RIGHT man, a true, Masculine GIVER who LOVES you… just don’t EVER have to overthink or overfunction in any way. I have to admit, he is already talking marriage, after four months….and we are really in love…and believe me, he KNOWS what I catch I am and that I am a HIGH status woman……thanks again….

  122.  #122TW on April 21, 2010 at 10:54 am


    Last night I was with my ex as you can see from a post above and he told me that I think too much. What do you think he means by that and what can I do about it?

  123.  #123Pam on April 21, 2010 at 11:00 am

    Jennifer – Your words are exactly what I needed to hear. Just reading about how amazing your relationship is now is so encouraging. Really made me smile. That’s what I want!!! Love that!

  124.  #124Pam on April 21, 2010 at 11:05 am

    TW – my guy has told me that I think too much many, many times. I think it’s a male female thing. We women do “think” way more than men and this probably often comes thru as overfunctioning, boy energy. So he probably just means that he thinks you think too much. It’s funny, I recently started listening to a CD in my car called “Women who think too much”. From what I’ve gotten from Rori, it’s not a bad thing that we think too much but we need to re-direct our thinking so our thoughts are focused on ourselves and not our man. Maybe?

  125.  #125tinque on April 21, 2010 at 11:09 am

    TW – How about letting this go and not thinking about it?
    Keep dropping your energy deep into your heart or even deeper into your pelvis. Try to keep your thoughts quiet, and feel. Feel whatever it is you feel, no questions; just feel. Watch as the feelings move and transform.

  126.  #126Simply Shannon on April 21, 2010 at 11:10 am

    TW: STOP. Please relish how fun last night was. Don’t start thinking about things he said and twisting them inside and out. You’re just trying to figure out a man and let’s face it… that ain’t gonna happen. Use your boy energy to go do something else. Find a rock and FEEL how hard or cold it feels. Paint yourself with love. Do whatever tool of Rori’s that feels good but stop analyzing!

    Okay. Stopping my boy voice.

    Girl voice: I feel frustrated! I don’t want to focus on what does that mean or what does this mean. I want to remember how good it felt to be with him last night. PERIOD.

  127.  #127Pam on April 21, 2010 at 11:31 am

    When will I get that it’s all about me and not about him? IT’S ALL ABOUT ME AND HOW I FEEL AND WHAT FEELS GOOD TO ME AND SCREW HIM HE’S LUCKY TO HAVE ME. I DO NOT NEED A MAN TO MAKE ME HAPPY. I AM BEAUTIFUL, KIND, CARING, THOUGHTFUL, AMAZING, GENEROUS, FUN, SILLY, SEXY AND I MATTER. And THIS is what will draw my Mr. Right to me. I’m just fed up with the B-shit of men that just don’t have it in them to be a real man.

  128.  #128TW on April 21, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Simply Shannon-

    I love you so much girl.. .You bring me right back down to where I need to be. You know what I am going to focus on.. I am going to focus on getting this paperwork done and signing all of these documents and letting go of the negative stuff because I know that he feels that I do not trust him because he said plain as day… ” I keep telling you that there is no one else and you do not believe me” so I need ot let all of that go. His actions spoke to me as though there may be someone else and I ran with that.

  129.  #129TW on April 21, 2010 at 11:39 am


    Good idea… I am going to try that as well and focus on that good sex he gave me last night… lol… That is too funny. It is moving already by just talking to my favorite online friends.

  130.  #130TW on April 21, 2010 at 11:49 am


    That makes sense… I think about thinking… lol… I am mentally all over the place sometimes.

  131.  #131Pam on April 21, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    TW – trust me, I can relate! I can drive myself crazy sometimes…I’m learning the art of stopping the obsessive thoughts thru mediation. I never in a million years thought I would “meditate” but it is the coolest thing I’ve discovered. I highly recomment it 🙂

  132.  #132TW on April 21, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    Congrats to everyone that quit smoking… I FEEL SO PROUD OF YOU ALL!!!!

  133.  #133TW on April 21, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    Pam…. I do pilates which really helps too because they dim the lights and you can stretch and relieve all the stresses of the day. I am going to try the meditation thing too…

  134.  #134Pam on April 21, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    TW – the bonus is that these are things we do for ourselves and they make us feel good (which we know is so important to our relationship with our men) so you go girl!

  135.  #135Daria on April 21, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    whoa feeling majorly triggered!!! i got this from Evan’s site… and I felt triggered by the letter… and then by the advice!!!

    I would have thought something else. RORI! please comment???

    Relationship Advice: My Girlfriend Wants to Get Married, But I’ll Lose My Health Insurance. What Do I Do?
    08:00 am on Apr 1st 2010 Evan Marc Katz

    Pages: 1 2
    I’ve got a very unique question, but the dilemma is not so unique to many today. I am seriously dating a wonderful woman for 14 months (I’m 49, she’s 46, she’s never been married). I am very amicably separated from ex wife of 10 years. We had no kids. We get along fine, keep in touch once in while.We did not file for divorce for a very practical reason: I am on her medical insurance policy from her company which costs me less than my monthly cable bill (very cheap), and is an extremely great policy. I am self-employed. I have some pre-existing conditions (nothing serious) that would disqualify me from getting a policy on my own. Even if I could, it would be cost prohibitive. My ex is not dating. Until one of us gets married and a divorce filing is required, I can stay on the policy. Just an example, last year I had a routine outpatient test examine and the bill to the insurance company was an eye-popping low five figures for 90 minutes. I only paid $50 for the co-pay. I went for a dental cleaning: $7.00. So this speaks for itself.

    A Romeo and Juliet story for the 2000’s… Isn’t it remarkable that something like COBRA can keep two people from tying the knot?
    My girlfriend who is very understanding but torn over this, as she doesn’t want me walking around without insurance (she doesn’t have a spousal plan), but understandably wants me to file for divorce, commit to her (I know I already am; I love her dearly) and wants to marry me. We don’t plan to have kids upon marriage. This whole thing has been a sore subject between us. I don’t like it anymore than she does but it’s MY reality. We live in complicated and tough times and getting sick or having an accident can bankrupt you. It’s in the news all the time. There are people out there who stay legally married for kids and money, even taxes but live under different roofs and different lives.

    My question is: Should we not focus on the piece of paper of marriage (I’m not belittling marriage) and focus on our own commitment to each other, and go live our lives OR serve her fears and file divorce? I know she REALLY wants to get married and I don’t want to disappoint. But… So until my ex gets married, if ever she does someday, I have amazing insurance (and an amazing lady). I know how she feels but sometimes you’ve got to be practical and real. I wonder what your readers think about this, and what would they do.

    Thanks! Steven

    A Romeo and Juliet story for the 2000’s…Isn’t it remarkable that something like COBRA can keep two people from tying the knot? Harrumph! If you don’t think that health care needed reforming, tell it to Steven here….

    But I don’t want to get into a political rant today (I do so enough with my wife). Your question, Steven, is a good one, because it’s not really about health insurance at all. As I see it, it’s about trust. It’s about reality. It’s about compromise. In short, it’s about the very things that make a relationship successful or unsuccessful. I think we can all agree that trust is the underpinning of every relationship, and that there are perfectly valid reasons why we might not be trusting of a partner. Sometimes it has to actually do with the partner’s behavior … extreme flirtatiousness, emotional distance, unwillingness to discuss a future. And sometimes it has NOTHING to do with the partner at all … the mistrust is placed in the failures of past relationships. So if one person cheated on you, you’re wary of your new partner doing the same. If one person disappeared after six months, you’ll do everything in your power to protect yourself from it happening again. The problem is that trying to ‘protect yourself’ is the ANTITHESIS of what a good, solid, stable relationship is about. True love allows you to let go and be weak and know that your partner will support you, through thick and thin. Your girlfriend, Steven, doesn’t actually believe that you will support her unconditionally without a wedding to lock you in for life. And, without more information, I’m inclined to think it has more to do with her past than with anything that you’ve actually done to make her insecure.

    …if she’s putting her need for a ring and a marriage license above your need for affordable health insurance, I think you might have a bigger issue on your hands than an unhappy girlfriend…
    I can validate her fears … no woman wants to risk a man leaving – but if she’s putting her need for a ring and a marriage license above your need for affordable health insurance, I think you might have a bigger issue on your hands than an unhappy girlfriend: you have a selfish girlfriend who thinks that her needs are more important than your needs. Successful relationships are about making compromises based on what’s most important and what’s possible. It’s impossible for you to get your own affordable health care with your pre-existing condition. Unless Obamacare takes care of you, or your girlfriend is willing to subsidize your medical costs, it seems that everything else stems from that unfortunate reality. All you can do is give your girlfriend the reassurance that you’re in it for the long haul, and if she doesn’t let up, assess whether you truly want someone who isn’t sensitive to your needs.


    whoa!!! i feel upset reading this! I would feel so misunderstood to have my desire for marriage – something beautiful in my mind – not be heard and understood. !!! Really? she’s being selfish because she wants to be married?? i feel weird!!

    I would really like Rori to comment on this letter

  136.  #136TW on April 21, 2010 at 1:29 pm


    I am manic Depressive so this probably will help me out a lot… Thanks for the suggestion

  137.  #137Goodheart on April 21, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    And the key here is that the guy is still MARRIED so he’s making his girlfriend & himself cheaters. It doesn’t matter how you want to wrap it, the guys is married. But, still in all, I don’t fault the guy. He’s just trying to have his cake & eat it too! The girlfriend needs to head for the hills. And, most of all, I have absolutely ZERO respect for Evan Katz now. I think the fact that he calls the girlfriend SELFISH is very telling of his own immaturity. We have the right to be selfish in relationships dammit. In fact, we have an obligation to ourselve to be that way.

    So, Daria, I guess I’m feeling triggered too! Whoa. I really do not respect his response & certainly would deem his advice intelligent.

  138.  #138Goodheart on April 21, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    I meant “WOULDN’T deem his advice intelligent.”

    I was so irritated I was typing faster than I was thinking. The guy is married. That’s all I keep thinking. And she’s SELFISH? Whoa Evan – wtf?

  139.  #139Simply Shannon on April 21, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    Daria and Goodheart: I totally agree. I read something else on Evan’s website recently and I felt majorly triggered (not this topic). Here’s how I envision that conversation going.

    Yes honey I know I’m still married. (Ick.)
    Yes honey, I know my ex and I are still friends. (Ick.)
    Yes honey, my ability to have cheap insurance is more important than my love for you. (Ick.)
    Yes honey, I would like to continue to cheat the system (and you I might add) by remaining married on paper to someone else. (Ick.)
    Yes honey, I think you’re being selfish. (Ick.)

    Me: I hear what you’re saying but I feel icky hearing those words. I don’t want anyone, especially someone who IS married, to tell me that wanting marriage and security is selfish. It feels better for me to keep my options open while you decide what you want to do with me.

  140.  #140Lucy on April 21, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    A little different perspective that might get me some flack…

    First, I AGREE that calling the gf selfish is ridiculous! Of course she doesn’t like the situation. She wants to be married, nothing selfish about that!

    However, I also understand the guy’s pov because I am in the same boat. My ex-h and I were in the process of divorcing when I got cancer. I lost my job, and fortunately, was still on HIS health insurance. And right now, I have no responsible choice but to stay on his insurance, just like this guy. So my ex-h and I agreed that we would consider ourselves divorced and that there is really no marriage there at all (we have been living separately for 9 years), just a legal glitch necessary for insurance. I’m not trying to “have my cake and eat it too” — it just makes sense and is the best decision for all involved at this point. If I find someone I want to marry and he has insurance, great, no problem. If he doesn’t, we’ll have to be more creative — either I will find a job with group insurance, he will find one, or we will live as a married couple without the paperwork. Would definitely have wedding rings though and some kind of wedding.

    As an aside, another interesting thing about TN man’s recent move — he went from being self-employed without insurance to a job in a company with insurance. 🙂 (Hey, I can dream….)

    But I, too, feel horrible about Evan’s assessment of the girl! I would want to be very sensitive to a man’s concerns in my own situation and do everything I can to work something out that he is happy with.

  141.  #141Simply Shannon on April 21, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    Lucy: You were dealing with cancer, something life threatening. This guy is talking about staying on it indefinitely just because it costs less. I dunno. That feels different to me.

  142.  #142Daria on April 21, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    Goodheart wow I didn’t even think of it that way!!

    yeah i felt uhoh! reading the letter… i felt uncomfortable reading the end about should we just focus on our relationship (sounded to me like that was his side, vs. this marriage paper thing – not that marriage is just a paper or that im saying what im saying – her side) i felt kinda weird.

    and then i felt a little shocked at the response!

    and i would feel hopeless because surely i dont want my man to not be able to have medical help…

    so i feel confused!

    i would really like for Rori to address it her way!

  143.  #143Daria on April 21, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    Well to the guy’s side – he did mention preexisting conditions!

    I feel excited to see whatsup with the new healthcare bill and how it will solve this problem!

    I just recently stopped having a preexisting (had a broken arm a few years ago) and got myself insurance! whew!

    also california has (expensive) major risk insurance for peopel with preexisting that are denied

  144.  #144Lucy on April 21, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    Right, the guy mentioned something pre-existing, and that makes it almost impossible to get insurance in most states without being part of a group plan at work. He may have something like diabetes, which would involve ongoing expensive care and supplies. I don’t think it’s a matter of just wanting to save a few bucks — I believe it’s more of a no-win situation.

  145.  #145Simply Shannon on April 21, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    I can kind of see that but if I put myself in her shoes and it really is a no-win situation AND I love this man, I’m kind of thinking I wouldn’t be harping on it all that much. If I’m harping about being married, then something else is up or I wouldn’t be bothered by it. Ya know? I’m wondering if this is just the tip of the iceberg and Stephen is making it about the insurance so that he can call HER selfish.

    Okay, running out for sushi. Yummo!

  146.  #146Daria on April 21, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    Lucy – yes. I would love to see Rori adress this!

    My guess is she will say… is marriage important to you, or is the relationship. If you don’t feel comfortable with marriage, you’ll have to walk… start by CDing

    after all, for example I want to go to Brazil. That means that a man for me has to go with me if he wants me… well hows he gonna figure out the health insurance thing there? thats a whole different thing and what if his gf had similar desires. sounds like he would let her walk… not pursue her… i feel unsafe with this man

  147.  #147Spider on April 21, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Thanks for replying, Rori! Actually, I think you may have read wrong — I NEVER beg forgiveness, EVER! That was how he responded after I was ready to leave him forever the first time he verbally “beat me up.” Also, I have never, ever been in a relationship like that before — EVER! It totally blindsighted me. I was 34 when I met him, and never once had anyone in my life, even in my worst childhood experiences, be that way.

    So, why did I stay? Because he was the first ever man to be totally in love with me and treat me like I was a beautiful woman, and not a buddy, or a “very good” friend.

    I hope your Toxic Men program will still be enlightening! 🙂 Thanks so much for your help. Your e-book is putting some light on things as well.

  148.  #148Turtle Girl on April 21, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Your post reminds me so much of how my ex mr. toxic man acted sexually. He almost always only wanted to do it doggie style. That way he did not have to look into my eyes. No intimacy there. Too scary for him I guess. But besides that, he was not very into sex much at all. So that was a problem.

    your post reminds me too all my ex toxic man. He did everything you mentioned and more.

    And how did I feel around this toxic man? Anxious, depressed, crying all the time, angry, frustrated, irritated, wanted him to be different. Hated him, loved him, wanted to shoot him, in short-he was poison. Not good for me. And I thought it was love.
    Wow………..not love. Good men show up on your birthday and give you something and tell you how much the appreciate you, not a card a week later saying how much I deserve more.

    Men who love you want to have sex with you in normal ways and are not afraid of getting close.

    Men who love you don’t discount your needs and only think of themselves.

    Men who love you don’t act in ways that make you feel as bad as you do or as bad as I did.

    I got rid of mine. I feel better.

  149.  #149Spider on April 21, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    Ick, I’m still a little queasy that anyone would read “he begged me for forgiveness” as ME doing that. :/ In fact he said the entire relationship was rotten because I never thought I did anything wrong, and never apologized. I actually did apologize, but I don’t grovel. The “attack and grovel” pattern was HIS.

  150.  #150Goodheart on April 21, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Daria, you wanting to go to Brazil & a man having deal with health insurance there is quite a different scenario than the one from Evan’s site. I don’t know what healthcare is like in Brazil so it could be a very doable thing for your man. The man in Evan’s scenario is married so he is asking his girlfriend to forever be his mistress. And I just cannot get over the fact that she is the one being called selfish.

    You know what they call a man who is separated from his wife? Married. Period. This guy has some major cajones if he thinks he has a right to ask any girl to be a lifelong mistress. And the guy even stated “I have some pre-existing conditions (nothing serious)” if it’s not serious than he can get insurance. It may be a bit more expensive, but pre-existing conditions are accepted after the waiting period. I used to work in insurance so I know this. In my opinion the guy is lazy, cheap, & a cad. And Evan’s response is almost comical in it’s one-sidedness. Quote, “Your girlfriend, Steven, doesn’t actually believe that you will support her unconditionally without a wedding to lock you in for life.” Um, Evan, as long as this guy is still MARRIED his wife is entitled to everything & his girlfriend is entitled to Jack Squat. So, yes, she doesn’t believe that he will support her unconditionally because he won’t.

  151.  #151Rori Raye on April 21, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Spider – so sorry I got that wrong….let me know how I can help now knowing what I know…Love, Rori

  152.  #152Spider on April 21, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    No problem, Rori, thank you. I was hoping you could tell me if it could be possible that it was in fact my problem — that he wasn’t Toxic, but that I brought out Toxic behavior in him by how I communicate? Or is verbal abuse always a sign of a toxic guy who can’t change when you change?

  153.  #153Rori Raye on April 21, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    Oh Dear regarding the “selfish” girlfriend and Evan’s response. I would have gone in another direction…but I see all sides here as it seems no one thought of this:
    It’s not what he CAN’T do (he can’t marry her because he can’t divorce the first wife and get new insurance) it’s about what he CAN do…. will go on with this later…Rori

  154.  #154Tina on April 21, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    I am divorced. When my ex-husband left me initially he said I was too sensitive and he wasn’t in love with me any longer. about 9 months later, he wanted to get back together with me. We dated on and off for 2 years. I think I only made matters worse. I was definitely less sensitive and he said he could see that but he went back and forth with wanting to get married. He would never initiate getting counseling or the help we needed. I arranged for us to have one free session because we could not affort to pay but we did not put into practice what was advised. I wanted him to participate in religous services with me and he did not want to. He felt pressured because of this and left again. I think I have exhausted all my chances with him. Is there anything I can do or say to make him want to give me another chance? Should I give him another chance? I don’t know if he really loves me enough.

  155.  #155Tk on April 21, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    I feel sad for Steven who was reaching out for help and received such an aggressive response about the one he loves. I hope that hearing someone say that his girlfriend is selfish and insecure brings out the protective man in him to defend his partner.. and hopefully has the opposite affect like a slap in the face… He is the man , not his girlfriend, not his wife, He should be the one who wants to protect and support her… End the old completely and start fresh with confidence and life will support you. x

  156.  #156Tk on April 21, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Spider, I heard what u said… And in the past have been in this situation.. Dont allow anyone to speak to you like this.. EVER!!!! He has a fowl mouth and is spitting venim at you and from your words it seems that he is rubbing off on you not the other way around.. Not a good sign.. If you cant leave him yet because of your heart try walking away in small ways… If he starts this talk walk away, because there is no reasoning with someone in this state of mind… Walk to the next room, walk into the garden, walk down the road and soon enough youll be walkingout the door for the last time… It is abuse and no different than him repeatedly hitting you… it is not your job to be his therapist, it is your job to protect yourself…
    He may change Spider but it will take years of reprograming his mind himself, he was probably spoken to like this growing up but like i said you can not be his therapist and his girlfriend…

  157.  #157Evan Marc Katz on April 21, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Thanks for all of your impassioned comments – yes, even the people who reflexively hate me. 🙂

    So you know, I’ve been coaching since 2003, and have written 400 blog posts. If I were you, I’d probably judge me on the body of my work, my happy, married clients, and my reputation as a guy who gives you the unfiltered male point of view.

    I will not take it personally that anyone here is “triggered” by what I wrote; I will also not recant my opinion just because it’s unpopular. I am not “wrong” because you disagree with me. I’m just different than you are and have a different – and very VALUABLE point of view.

    So, please don’t hate on me for that. It’s unproductive and loses sight of the fact that I work with women in getting them to understand men. If you dismiss what I’m saying because you don’t like it, you’re a) dismissing the valid opinions of most men, and b) being as dismissive as the men who dismiss YOUR opinions.

    Both sexes have to understand each other, agreed? And since you can’t make men understand you, that’s why you have to better understand them.

    So, from where I sit, the dissenters are putting yourselves in HER shoes. I completely understand. However, your REAL task should be to put yourself in HIS shoes.

    Say that you’re a female freelance writer who makes $50K. You very much like what you do for a living. You have a preexisting condition that could cost you $10K a year, which is cost prohibitive. And thanks to your ex-husband – a kind man with whom you’re incompatible – you have insurance that costs you $7 a month and saves you $10,000 a year.

    While separated, you meet a lovely man on and fall hard for him. He doesn’t love the fact that you’re separated, but not divorced, but he understands your position. You’re both in your late 40’s, you’ve been around the block, you know that life is complicated. 14 months later, you’re very much a committed couple but marriage is an untenable solution because of your financial and medical situation. Not only will you be denied coverage (since Obamacare won’t kick in until 2014), but you don’t want to pay the cost-prohibitive $700/month premiums even if you could get coverage.

    And while your boyfriend has suggested you get a job that has healthcare, you LIKE being a freelance writer – making your own hours, working on projects about which you’re passionate, not dealing with office politics. You don’t want to have to take a desk job doing something you like less JUST to get better health care.

    It’s not that you don’t love your boyfriend and wouldn’t marry him. It’s that you feel bound by circumstance, and you pray that your boyfriend understands your predicament and judges you on how much you love him, how devoted you are to him, how he feels when he’s around you – safe, sexy, secure, and understood. And if he can’t accept that, and needs to get a ring to prove that you’re a couple, he may have to find another partner. Sad, but that’s how love goes sometimes when people’s needs aren’t aligned.

    As women, you are very good at understanding what she’s going through, and are far less sympathetic to what he’s going through. This is the problem with relationships – and the reason that I am a dating coach for women. To be good with men, you HAVE to understand and validate his point of view JUST as you’d like him to do for you.

    If you wouldn’t stay with a man who has $7 health insurance because he’s still married, that’s fine. Dump him for a more available man. That’s your right. But you may be throwing away a gem of a guy who’s caught between a rock and a hard place. I know this because my own MOTHER is separated from her husband and he keeps her on his health care out of kindness and financial consideration.

    And if you know any nice sixtysomething men in Florida, she’s VERY available – just not available to be married. 🙂

    Sorry to stoke your fires. Please return to the lovely Ms. Rori and your regular programming. Thanks for hearing me out.

    Much love,


  158.  #158youdontwannaknow on April 21, 2010 at 6:21 pm

    I didn’t read all the comments, but I did want to share some good news. 🙂

    I went on a trip this past weekend, and of course my husband didn’t pay much notice as I cleaned the house (which was filthy, but I always clean before I go anywhere so hopefully it’s clean when I come back tired). I didn’t expect anything but it to be trashed when I got home, even though he was here by himself. But I just focused on doing what felt good to me, and right then it was making the house as pretty as I could before I left, because IIIIIII wanted to feel nice when I got home. No more martyr.

    When I got home, he had cleaned the dishes I didn’t have time to do (the house really was bad off) and put them all away and shined the sink! I could have cried.

    This stuff really does work. 🙂

  159.  #159Tk on April 21, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Evan, sorry if you feel attacked here, but this is how women feel in a majority.. I believe it is not our responsibility to put ourselves in either Steven or his girlfriend position.. But Stevens responsibility to put himself in his girlfriends shoes..
    I Have never met a man who would be happy for another man to take care of the one he loves and wants to marry, Have you???

  160.  #160Lucy on April 21, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    Evan, it’s not at all a matter of taking a gender-based viewpoint. It’s a matter of having life experiences that engender empathy for a particular viewpoint, regardless of whether it’s male or female. This should be apparent in my posts #140 and 144.

    As someone who is actually IN the same situation as the MAN, my only problem with what you wrote was the fact that you said the woman was SELFISH. When I find the right man for me, if this is an issue between us, I will certainly not see him as selfish just because he struggles with the situation. I will compassionately work together with him to find a solution, and if we come to an impasse, I will not chalk it up to him being selfish, but rather the fact that it’s just a relationship that isn’t going to work. I don’t have to blame the other person.


  161.  #161Rori Raye on April 21, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    youdontwannaknow – Welcome – and thank you for the great story! Love, Rori

  162.  #162Rori Raye on April 21, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    Evan, Thank you, and this is great. I so appreciate your point of view and would LOVE a man who could sit with me in this situation – so totally out of the box. To add to it…(as a girl) – Is there something legal, emotional, traditional, ritualistic, financial, ceremonial – small things and agreements and set-ups they can do that would make her feel good and right? Perhaps buying a home together….? That would go a long way to make me feel great in this situation. I could personally, easily embrace this kind of thing….and – I would imagine they might actually be talking about this together…Rori

  163.  #163Evan Marc Katz on April 21, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Again, thanks to all for the respectful dialogue. The reason it’s an interesting question is that there is NO black and white answer, and reasonable people CAN disagree. My only point was that the girlfriend was putting her need to be married over his need for affordable health insurance. This doesn’t make her evil; it makes her selfish in the same way we’re all selfish.

    The reason I came down on his “side” is that they can be happy as a couple without a ring; but he can’t be happy without affordable health insurance.

    There are any number of things that they can do to cement their relationship as a couple – a promise ring, a ceremony, a house. But if she wants an official marriage more than she wants HIM, she should go out and find a guy who can give it to her. This guy can’t and I think she should either accept it or move on.

    If you read the guy’s note: he’s clearly a nice guy who’s torn up about this. Nobody’s bad here; it’s just an unfortunate situation due to the health insurance crisis.

    I hope you continue to be “triggered” by me. It means I’m doing something right. 🙂

    G’night. Gotta make dinner for the wife.


  164.  #164Jackie on April 22, 2010 at 4:22 am

    Maybe its my boy brain that I spend too much time in, but I get the response that Evan made to the guy who wrote him. I could feel how bad they guy felt in what he wrote and feel that he seems lost on how best to manage it.

    I know this doesn’t align to the popular opinion here. In my opinion it was the phrasing of how Evan responded that might have caused the triggering. I especially felt that way after reading Evan’s post where he made the woman the “victim” in the situation- finding a great man, having a wonderful job that she loves, and so having a reason not to be able to get divorced for insurance which sucked major. Again just my opinion cause its not for me to call what triggers someone else, but I think the word “selfish” did the triggering.

    I’m sure part of why I feel about this conversation the way I do is because of how I feel that marriage ultimately gets reduced to a piece of paper instead of the true heart connection….since I’d be fine without the piece of paper, it becomes easy for both my boy and girl brain to see the compromise in keeping the health insurance and having a heart marriage.

    Now it would be much different to both my boy and girl brain if the guy was still hooked on his ex, had a strong relationship with her, etc. cause then its about health insurance being an excuse to maintain a connection versus the reality of needing health insurance. But hey, we’ve all heard of those very circumstances existing when divorce has happened and there is no health insurance, right?

  165.  #165Lori on April 22, 2010 at 6:10 am

    I agree with Jackie. I have had a legal marriage where my ex husband was gone over half the year, cheated on me and made me feel lonely and disconnected in other ways and a long term relationship with no marriage certificate where I felt loved and cherished. I do feel there are other ways to prove commitment than a marriage certificate. I have friends who live together and have been engaged for 10 years now but have never legally married due to financial arrangements with both exes and children from previous marriages and they are the happiest, most committed couple I know.

    I feel that true commitment isn’t about a piece of paper. It’s about feeling strongly enough for someone that you are willing to love them just as they are no matter what their situation is. For better or worse, in sickness and in health. If the situation has been honestly presented from the beginning, I don’t see what the issue is at all. If one person is feeling insecure about the level of comitment, I agree with Rori, maybe they should buy a house together or show their commitment in some other way. But then again, I also feel that the fact that someone is feeling insecure about the level of commitment may be a red flag in itself and there may be other issues at play that we are not aware of.

    I have seen many couples, some happy and committed and some unhappy and not committed. Some were married and some weren’t. The married ones weren’t all happy and the unmarried ones weren’t all unhappy. I just don’t feel that marriage is necessaily a guarantee of happiness or proof of true commitment.

  166.  #166Lori on April 22, 2010 at 6:14 am

    I also agree with Evan, if the girlfriend needs to be married more than she needs to be with HIM, they shouldn’t be together.

  167.  #167gigi on April 22, 2010 at 6:56 am

    Back to the original topic, I found that I gave a man I was seeing for over four years MORE THAN HIS SHARE OF “yes, he can learn to be sensitive and not clueless” with the utmost of understanding (why he was late, why he didn’t have a gift for my birthday, etc.etc.) but then I discovered he was taking total advantage of my kindnesses. HE was seeing other women and then would give me a song about why/who each was (old friend/lover/friend of his ex’s) and one had an “accident” and therefore couldn’t have intercourse,etc. so it wasn’t physical (that’s what I was around for apparently,etc.)

    And the kicker, he said he doesn’t burn bridges w old relationships–to keep one on a burner at all times (I called it the pick up between hook ups!?) He wants women to come to him as “friends” and he yo-yo’s them back into bed at will, I’m afraid!

    So, sensitive? When I walked cold turkey, he even texted me: That was impersonal, we need to talk. I made a hard decision not to FALL FOR IT (being the friends we were…)
    OK, should I remember that he’d boasted “I can charm the pants off of any woman!” on a first date??
    Putting all the pieces together, I now say that “clueless” is “narcisstic and mean” (maybe he doesn’t like women?) but I didn’t need to stay around to learn more. He still has one GF on the line for TEN YEARS past thier former relationship and I can call this a LONG TERMER regardless of what he says she doesn’t want one. Doesn’t say too much about her and his feelings for her. And, no, she didn’t know about ME, get it?

  168.  #168TW on April 22, 2010 at 7:27 am


    I agree as well. I think his delivery was a little off and that may have caused the trigger in some of the women on this blog because we all are working on problems with men. And we say initially a woman who was having a problem with a man. Then he did the role reversal which made me change my mind about the whole situation. I would have chosen a different word than selfish but it all made sense at that point. I think what he was trying to say would have been more effective if he post it as is WITH the role reversal portion so that you can see both sides of the coin in the same post.

  169.  #169Ingrid on April 22, 2010 at 8:37 am

    Dear TK: Your post #155 above was awesome, about “walking away”…..even in little teenie baby steps—–even while living with a man….like ummmm your husband…….(like me). Thank u for your post.

    As some of you may or may not know, my h of over 20 yrs. has been involved in an affair over the past 2-3 yrs, which ended very recently, and we are back together now. Well, it shattered me. My heart, my soul, my spirit totally, as it came as a total surprise. Well, long story short, we love each other and have a family together, both want to be together, he admitting he “blew it”. I am not (yet) financially secure, and I do feel we are meant to stay together still. I feel very strongly in the bonds eternal of marriage and family, as h does too. However, I know I need to “walk away” emotionally somewhat in order to heal myself, from much pain. If anyone gets this. I loved TW your suggestions for “walking away” even just a little, exactly what you said. It is fabulous! I have learned here, no person is your “all”. We do need to protect ourselves and maybe sometimes NOT be so passionate and easily hurt by another. HUGE lesson for me.

    I know I need to “find myself” again, it is hard to do, when my life has been my family. But I am doing it!
    YAY Woo hoo.

  170.  #170Donna on April 22, 2010 at 8:43 am

    Hi All,

    I just got Targeting Mr. Right, and I have three dates lined up for this weekend to begin circular dating, including one that I’ve been seeing for a few months. I had to tell him I would not be exclusive with him which was scary. He didn’t like it, but to his credit he’s still choosing to see me, and I know it’s up to me to change the dynamics of the relationship. More importantly, to change the dynamics of my relationship with myself, to love, respect and value myself. Even though I already knew these things intellectually, it’s a whole different thing learning them emotionally. I’m 59, and feel a bit like a teenager, scared and excited at the same time. All of the men I’m dating came from eHarmony, which is a great site, but I need to know how to meet new men in other ways. Also, because this is so new and different for me, it feels a little intimidating which can cause me to go too much into thinking mode and become very intellectual. Any suggestions for how to keep my jitters in check and stay in warm, woman mode? Thanks!

  171.  #171Simply Shannon on April 22, 2010 at 9:52 am

    I still believe there’s more going on here. I’d love to hear the girlfriend’s side to see why she’s pushing marriage. I’d be willing to bet there’s a lot more going on than Steven has written.

    And marriage is not just a piece of paper to me. I feel angry hearing that comment. Besides making a commitment before God and country, there are LOTS of legal and financial impacts as a result of marriage, none of which are mentioned. Simply the desire to continue to have cheap insurance. What about taxes, wills, property? What happens if something bad happens to Steven? Who is making choices, the girlfriend or the WIFE?

    To flip the example: “I’ve been dating a man for 14 months. I love him dearly. I really want to marry him but he won’t divorce his wife. You see… she covers him on her insurance and it’s really cheap. I don’t know what to do. I know he loves me, but it feels awful thinking we’ll never get married. What do you think?” I believe Rori would say exactly what she wrote above and to circular date so that I’m not freaking out that we aren’t married. And I can guarantee my response to the above post would be the same as Goodheart “He’s still married. Ick.”

    For me, I would feel uncomfortable dating a married man, regardless of the reasons. I get why he’s doing it but it doesn’t mean I have to feel comfortable with it. That’s his life choice, not mine.

    Lucy: I feel a little weird writing this given the situation that you are in, knowing you are in the same boat as Steven. I just know what would and wouldn’t work for me.

    Evan: I am not “wrong” because you disagree with me. I’m just different than you are and have a different – and very VALUABLE point of view. I wholeheartedly agree and say ditto. 😉

  172.  #172Lucy on April 22, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Shannon, thank you for addressing me personally in your comment. I very much appreciate your sensitivity. I actually agree with you for the most part, which is why I WOULD NOT CALL ANY MAN WHO WAS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH MY SITUATION SELFISH!!!!! Whew. That really gets me! Especially since I am in the same situation as Steven.

    If I had written to a relationship coach about it, and was torn up about it because I loved my man so much, I would be ticked and bewildered by Evan’s response, calling my beloved man selfish. I would have acknowledged that both of them have valid needs and desires in this situation, that it is a VERY difficult situation, and that it may not work out between these two particular people — nobody’s fault, just incompatible needs. Then I would have made suggestions, along the lines of what Rori was getting at, that might help make the woman feel better. There’s no reason why they couldn’t have wedding rings and a ceremony, and buy a house together.

    Also, Shannon, your question about who makes choices if somthing happens…. I actually addressed that when I went in for my cancer surgery because I did not want my “ex-h” making medical and/or financial decisions if I went into a coma or something. No way!!! So, in two short days, I ran around and drew up the paperwork giving my parents both medical and financial power-of-attorney. If I want to commit to a man at some point and marriage is still not tenable, I will give power-of-attorney to him.

    I think those are the kinds of things Rori was talking about when she asked “what CAN Steven do?”

    Even with all those things, there may well be a man who would not go for it with me. And I would understand. There are strong cultural, personal, spiritual, familial, legal, financial, emotional, sexual, etc. implications to actually being married — most of which I remain aligned with — and I would not fault a man who felt that way.

    I love your last paragraph, Shannon, and it is absolutely true. I actually feel more triggered by Evan’s comments on here than I do by the original post!

    One other thing, Evan wrote: “My only point was that the girlfriend was putting her need to be married over his need for affordable health insurance. … it makes her selfish in the same way we’re all selfish.” If it’s true for her, then it is true for him: The guy was putting his need for affordable health insurance over her need to be married….it makes him selfish in the same way we’re all selfish. I personally believe NEITHER of them was being “selfish” — I think that’s just silly — but certainly if you’re going to call one of them selfish, then it has to go both ways.

    The sad part, too, was that Evan saw a need to come down on a “side.” It’s not about sides at all, and making it about sides is a poor way to begin a committed relationship — married or not.


  173.  #173Turtle Girl on April 22, 2010 at 2:12 pm


    and others who have posted here about this topic of health insurance——–

    Several years ago I was married to a man who had fabulous insurance (big corporation insurance, totally awesome) we split up and for five years he carried me
    on that, still legally still married. I dated, he did to and we were still friends and it did not cost him to still have me on his insurance. I so appreciated it as my choices were crappy at the time. I was self employed and would not have been able to find anything as good as what he had.

    Then he meets a gal. She is totally insecure with the arrangement and out of pressure from her to him, we end up legally divorced and I lose the insurance. He did not want it, I did not want it and the only person it made feel better was her. Do I think she was selfish? You bet your ass I did. All because of HER insecurity and lack of faith in him. I even had a convo with her and told her, look I am no threat, we split up long ago, it’s no big thing-she still demanded he marry her…………*sigh* So he did, but deep down I know he resented it. They are still married, however I hear through the grapevine that it ain’t the best of relationships.

    Sorry ladies-I am with Evan all the way on this one.
    Get over yourself. Life is not black and white. I get the clean slate thing, but it won’t make it all better if Steven does this from a position of guilt, pressure or any other thing other than because he wants to freely. Just my humble opinion.

  174.  #174Rori Raye on April 22, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    Tina…I don’t think sensitivity is the issue here. Do you have the ebook – Have The Relationship You Want? I can help much more after knowing how you see yourself in that book – it actually might answer everything for you…Love, Rori

  175.  #175heartbeat on April 22, 2010 at 2:36 pm


  176.  #176Ingrid on April 22, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    I feel when a man loves a woman, he will provide for her, and put her and the kids on HIS health insurance plan. I feel it is man’s role to provide, to make the living, and it is the woman’s role to make life worth living.

  177.  #177Spider on April 22, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    So I have now read the e-book and I’m more dejected than ever.

    The way I grew up, the woman was expected to Nurture AND to Respect Masculinity. Essentially she had to do the work of the “boy” and the “girl” and get the costs of both as well. If she didn’t, well, the man would just get it somewhere else. The man I was with expected this as well, and said there was something very wrong with me.

    I don’t know, I’m very skeptical that if I stopped Nurturing, I would keep a man for even ten seconds. I’ve been yelled at, scolded, talked down to, reprimanded by my mother, father, and boyfriends for not Nurturing, which I see as waiting hand and foot on men. This is why I just don’t bother with relationships, unless a man really wants to be with me. I love being the Feminine Energy partner, but then comes the expectations that I start waiting on the guy — anticipating his needs, taking care of him. I just do not have time for that! And then Rori says I don’t have to and then men will come to me? If that works on some men, all I have to say is WOW!

  178.  #178tinque on April 22, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Spider – Yes it works. I’m won’t say I don’t do anything for my man. I like to cook, but I do so when I feel like, and he appreciates it either way, and I do the laundry and clean, but this is only because I DON’T work a regular job, and he is the main breadwinner, so I’m happy to do this. We also do some chores together.
    But I DO NOT fawn over him. Ever. He would hate it if I did. When he’s sick, of course I will bring him soup if he asks for some etc.
    He takes care of me, very good care of me, and I don’t have to ask for anything.
    BUT, and this is important. I don’t expect anything either. Men can feel the expectations, and this feels awful to them.
    Not only does this leave me open to being pleasantly surprised at every turn, it also allows him the space and the desire to do even more for me.
    Sexually I come first in all senses of that word. He gets far more enjoyment out of seeing me turned on and feeling good than anything I could do to/for him.
    Does this help you to know that are men like this out there, maybe far more of them than you could have imagined?

  179.  #179Rori Raye on April 22, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Donna – BRAVA to you!!! Targeting is so the right program for you…just practice the feeling messages and Conversation Circles – Even if you start with “I’m feeling nervous…this dating thing feels so new to me…” Whatever makes you feel real and authentic will feel good…Love, Rori

  180.  #180Spider on April 22, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Tinque, thanks, I just find it all confusing: Everything I was taught was “womanly” and everything I was criticized for not doing (“You’re acting like a man”), Rori is saying is masculine. It’s a little disorienting!

    I’m a professional, academic woman, and I swear I attract men who want me to feel bad about that. Probably because my family wants me to feel bad about that.

  181.  #181Ingrid on April 22, 2010 at 4:41 pm


    I can soooo relate too. I am confused by this thread, yet I want to learn more. I have used my “masculine energy” for 20 years in being the everything and all for my h, and for our family. I grew up believing like you did, the woman should be the “:boy” and the “girl” in order to keep a man around. YCCH! This does not feel good to me any more, after 20 years of marriage and breaking my back literally for my h and family, and him STILL having an affair. You see? It really gets you no where in the long run. I may have well only been the “girl” from the get go. Better to learn it now, from the start……lol

    I too am puzzled, but I completely relate to Rori’s post……Completely. I ask, OK, after catching your handsome man, how do you stop being the “boy” and concentrate only on being the “girl”? This is my main question today. Tell me….HOW do you reverse it?

  182.  #182tinque on April 22, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    Spider – Yes I understand, and now so do you.
    And you also now know whom not to go to for support. It is possible to wear the boy hat at work and the girl’s one in the evening.

  183.  #183Ingrid on April 22, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    Dear Rori:

    I don’t think I am married to man who loves me as much as I love him. Plain and simple. It is my challenge therefore I believe, to love him anyway, as I promised I would “before God and witnesses”. Yet, I would like to learn what I can do to shake things up a bit, and to get him to appreciate me more, and “train my otherwise clueless hubby”, etc……You say it can be done. I have tried some little techniques up your sleeve already and they have worked somewhat. But not fully.

  184.  #184Rori Raye on April 22, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Ingrid – I’d like to encourage you to get the ebook – Have The Relationship You Want – over in the sidebar, it says To Rori’s programs – you can have the ebook to read within 5 minutes, and if you actually DO the Tools, it will make sense to you…Love, Rori

  185.  #185Ingrid on April 22, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Dear Rori:

    Thanks. I did get your ebook, have to now find where I put it…….LOL. and take it out and read it again…….

    Thank you tremendously~\

  186.  #186Spider on April 22, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    Do you think there is a cultural component to this? Because like I said, in my family, women are supposed to be nurturing and anticipating the man’s needs. She is “the boy”, in Rori’s nomenclature, and if she isn’t, it is thought that she is being disrespectful. Obviously I prefer something different, and LOVE that other woman have found something different. But I’m wary of the idea that Rori’s techniques will always work — in some cultural contexts, you could really be seen as very inappropriate.

    I’m all about wearing the boy’s hat at work, and the girl’s hat at home, believe me. But like I said, I was taught that they “girl” waited on men, and there is no room in my life for that.

    It’s funny because I’ve always intuited this — the most “macho” chauvinistic men were actually very passive and wanted to be taken care of, just like a baby!

  187.  #187Daria on April 22, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    Spider –

    I too and many women finding Rori’s method found that what we learned and what works are two different things. Rori’s tools became my lifeboat to Goddessness.

  188.  #188TW on April 23, 2010 at 5:48 am


    Hello ladies.. I feel down today. I am missing my ex a lot. I have not had much interaction with him since the night we had such a great time but that was just the other day. I left work early yesterday and we were texting and he told me that he already had plans with his daughter so I just told him that I would call him later when I got done with my running around which ended up taking until like 11 but I did call like I said and he did not answer so I just left a voicemail. The more I am away from him the more I want to be with him if that makes any sense. Most of my relationships I have been able to let go but this one I just can not for some reason. He has everything in life that I want: good job, good father, shares my faith, but I just wish he was a better man for me sometimes. He was great in the beginning and then I went into super nice mode but I just want things to be better. When we separated the first time there was absolutely no contact but when I asked for a break he does text periodically to keep in touch and then I see him from time to time. I feel as though if he does not want me then just let me go. I asked him was he involved with someone else and he said he keeps telling me no but I do not believe him so that right there lets me know that I do not trust him but his actions made me feel that was. All of a sudden he was so distant and cold with no explanation at all which made me feel uneasy and it showed. I want him to want me again and look at me like he once did. The other night he looked at me so intense but no changes you know. I want him to want me again. I feel tired and drained because it is like you want do something but you know you are not supposed to but this weekend I have a lot of things planned with my friends so I will not have time to think about it. What do you ladies suggest?

  189.  #189dorothea on April 23, 2010 at 8:02 am

    TW i suggest LEANING BACK

  190.  #190TW on April 23, 2010 at 8:07 am


    It is so hard you know because I know he is going to contact me sooner or later but I do not know how to handle this is an effective manner to the point where I do not push him away even farther.

  191.  #191Ingrid on April 23, 2010 at 8:15 am


    Know what you mean! Follow your heart and your feelings. Be true to yourself and what you want.

  192.  #192Turtle Girl on April 23, 2010 at 11:10 am


    This comment right here is the most powerful of the whole post to me. It says it all. Thank you.

    I ask you – do you want to spend your life holding onto a man by the skin of your teeth? Or do you want a man who wants you, too? So you can relax?

    I was NEVER relaxed with ex toxic man. I was always on edge. Now with a new vibe and all the CDing I have been doing, everything is different. I am relaxed. There is even one man who I feel really really good around. He is sweet and kind. He opens my doors, and helps with my coat. He calls first and does not expect me to come to his house. He comes and picks me up for the dates. I feel totally at ease around this man. This is a very different feeling. It is nothing like the exman.

  193.  #193Cinnamon on April 23, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Just a quick note as I know people on here will calm me down! I have the ebook and modern siren but reconnect your relationship really blew me away. After listening to most of it I decided I had to be brave and if not CD fully yet at least date myself.
    Sooo the guy who I’ve been seeing for 6 months (and who has become really distant and unaffectionate) comes round on Thursday as agreed. Grumbles as I don’t fancy pizza yet again and we have to go shopping. During the few hours he is here the talk turns to the weekend. Normally I leave certain times free so I can spend time with him but this weekend I’ve booked up the whole weekend.

    So when he finds out that I’ve joined a new hiking club to go walking when he hasn’t asked and a new social group so I have people to go out with when my friends are busy he says ‘ooh you’ve been busy. I best hurry and catch up andget myself the same’. I’m leaning back and the tools are working and he’s acting all interested but I’m now feeling terrified. I’m busy all weekend so he’s going out with the boys all weekend. I’m triggered and can’t stop thoughts of him being surrounded by gorgeous younger thinner women and maybe he’ll find someone much less complicated than me. Aaagh. <>>>

  194.  #194Simply Shannon on April 23, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    Cinnamon: I feel happy for you for breaking the cycle! No matter what, things shift from here. And that’s good unless you want to stay where you are and unhappy. Right? Maybe he’ll be surrounded by other women that annoy him and make him realize what a gem you are. And maybe you’ll met a hunk-a-hunk man with your hiking group and forget all about him. Who knows what might happen? Doesn’t that feel exciting? Scary yes, but exciting. I can’t wait to hear about it!

  195.  #195Daria on April 23, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Cinnamon – sounds like he’s in the process of getting shocked… Subconsciously “testing” your new boundary, before he transforms and comes pursuing like mad

  196.  #196TW on April 23, 2010 at 5:04 pm


    I feel afraid. We keep in contact through text and he was here with me the other night but it is not stable you know. I want him to make the move and it seems like he wants me to say it but I am supposed to lean back right. But I broke things off with him but am I still supposed to lean back or should I be the one to initiate the conversation since I initiated the break up. I am so confused.

  197.  #197dorothea on April 25, 2010 at 9:42 am

    TW, have you heard from him yet?

    you can still lean back but encourage him to “make the move” by being receiving openly and warmly when he DOES lean forward to you.

    i know this is hard.

    Please also consider dating other men or at least yourself. This should be a new habit you establish if you haven’t already. This behavior in place will likely draw your ex in, draw other men in, and create a vibe for you that contributes to the well being and good treatment toward u with your rekindled romance with the ex, with any other dude, or general way you treat yourself.

    it’s win win win all around.

  198.  #198Ingrid on April 25, 2010 at 10:12 am

    Hi TW~

    It is soooo hard sometimes to know what the right thing to do is! Or say, or act, or not do, or not act, sheeesh. We can waste tons on energy on this, can’t we? I have!!!! I totally feel as you do, and hear you. sometimes we gals have no idea! We’re in the dark, floundering around for the best thing, the right words, the right actions. I’ve been there, I am there, even with my h of over 20 years, I still feel afraid something I do or say, or how I may react may send him off again to his stripper—–GASP. If he did this, I’d have to cut it off, I know this.

    I think Rori is so right when she says being strong and knowing ourselves is the key. And being happy with OUR life. The key to our every decision in life, even ones not concerning men, like our jobs, whatever.

    When I was working at a job lately, which I came to hate after about ummm 5 days, there was the coolest health food restaurant I discovered where I’d go for lunch, and it was called “Follow Your Heart”. It was a sign, I just know. LOL. You’ll know TW what to do if you follow your heart. What does it saY? I’d love to hear more from you. What’s happened lately?

    Wishing you all the best TW~

  199.  #199tinque on April 25, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Ingrid – Are you in Woodland Hills? Follow Your Heart is one of my favorite places. There is another one in Santa Barbara.
    I understand how it can seem so hard to say the right things, do the right things, be the right way, and it might feel really awkward initially, but there is no wrong way if you are in your body and heart, loving yourself, and speaking in feelings messages as you are learning.

  200.  #200TW on April 25, 2010 at 4:42 pm


    hello my love… It is funny that youmention signs because I was at the salon getting all pretty and was reading a magazine and my horoscope for April said “Rethink your position on a breakup” I initially thought well maybe it is telling me that I really did do the right thing by asking for a break and I need to move on and then again it may have been telling me girl go and get your man back. i looked in my email this morning and this is what my weekly horoscope said:

    Sunday’s your day to shine this weekend with the Moon lighting up your 5th House of Romance. However, there may be a difficult issue to work through before the fun starts. If you’re able to address your doubts or fears and then let go of them, the relief you feel will be visible on your face. That look of joy, as if you survived a difficult journey, makes you more attractive than ever.

    I was like wow.. I am not a person that is in full belief of horoscopes because of my biblical mind but I enjoy reading them for the fun of it you know. No harm or disreprct to people who do believe in them because you have a right to believe what you want but I found it strange what it said. He is still distant although he keeps in constact with me normally through text and stuff but we do see each other from time to time as well. The first time we split up we had no contact at all but I fear losing my relaitonhip over nothing. I complained about him no spending time with me and how unhappy I was all the time. Everytime we talked ot be exact and I guess he just stopped talking.

  201.  #201Elaine on April 26, 2010 at 8:51 am

    I am in love with a man, who says he loves me as a close friend. But i am “in love” with him. He has a daughter that will be 18 in a few months, she has a handicap of learning slow so she thinks like a 14 would be thinking. He has never been married to her mom and he hasn’t dated in 17 years and it has always been just him and his daughter (he gets her every other weekend). He is obsessed with her, making sure she doesn’t get upset about anything and she controls him, but he doesn’t realize that she does. So when we are around her, I am not allowed to touch him except for a quick hug, because she will get upset. We have been sexually active and now he feels quilty if we have sex because he tells his daughter to wait until she is married. He says he loves me like a very close friend and that he may in the future “fall in love with me” but for now it is all about tiptoeing around his daughter. Even tho we say we are boyfriend-girlfriend, we have to be “just friends” around her. It is driving me crazy, i cry all the time and am so confused. He doesn’t understand why wehave to label our relationship. He says he may never want to get married again and I do someday. He wants to keep seeing me and we spend alot of time together and we have a ton of fun, as long as his daughter is not around. His mom passed away in March and she was a dear friend of mine before i started dating her son. So I know that we both are still grieving over her. But what do i do to get him to see me the way he really feels when his daughter is around. I need serious therapy. I had not dated myself for over 11 years, i was in an abusive relationship in the past. I opened my heart to him and now I don’t know what to do. We both have been single for so long, I have changed, because I have fallen in love. Will he ever change, or do I give him more time, or just forget about labels and enjoy our time together, or just give up and try and be just friends. And his daughter will be legally an adult in a few months. Please help me with this before I pull out all my hair. I love this man so much and if his daughter was older or out of the picture I feel his feeling would be deeper for me. What should I do. Thank you for any help or advice.

  202.  #202Rori Raye on April 26, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    Elaine – Welcome – and I’m going to be harsh and ask what I always ask in a situation like this – “WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO YOURSELF?” He has said he doesn’t love you. He continually demonstrates that he doesn’t love you. There is nothing to think about, or hope for, or wait for. This is a different kind of abuse you’re going in for here, but it’s abuse nonetheless. It’s not his fault – it’s YOUR responsibility to take care of yourself, and you’re upset because somewhere inside you you KNOW you’re NOT taking goood care of yourself. Accept and love the reality here. He’s not for you. DROP HIM!!! Kindly, with grace…just simply say you’re looking for a man who loves you in the forever way…” Plain and simple. We’ll all help you to Circular Date and to heal yourself through learning who you are when you’re triggered by and attracted to different men. It’s time for you to go exploring YOU….Love, Rori

  203.  #203diamond on April 27, 2010 at 7:59 am

    Elaine, you deserve better than to be his dirty little secret. He’s basically using you for sex and companionship, and has put his daughter first in an unhealthy way.

    Tell him how you feel. If you don’t feel good about the way you have to act around his daughter to keep the peace, say so. If you’re looking for a boyfriend, for marriage, say so, and stick to it. If he at all loves you he will step up. If not, then you have your answer. YOU CAN’T CHANGE HIM.

    Don’t end up 20 years from now still stuck in this triangle, wishing you could change him and his daughter. She sounds like a narcissist who’s using her disability to control her father’s life, and he’s enabling her to do so by not putting his foot down and having a life of his own.

    Please love yourself.

  204.  #204TW on April 27, 2010 at 8:03 am


    I did not read Elaine’s post but I like your response…

  205.  #205TW on April 27, 2010 at 8:46 am


    I am going to post something that I have been working on shortly. I post a portion of it yesterday but I will post it in its entirety in a few moments.

  206.  #206Jules on April 28, 2010 at 12:55 am

    I’d love some thoughts here. . . I met a man online 3 months ago. We hit it off right away. He traveled 3 hours to come see me, and we’ve stayed in touch since, phone/email. He did seem to be drifting away a bit, and about that time I discovered Rori’s work (thank all the little gods of hearts and souls and bits and bytes) and my own (sigh) – neediness.

    Just about the time I decided I should let him do all the contacting (instead of less than half the time), his father died, and a number of other big life issues came up for him at the same time. Except for his last phone call, and 2 email exchanges, I’ve not contacted him, nor have I heard from him in 3 weeks since – not much time on the grief scale, but a long time for such a tenuous new relationship to go without contact. I’ve been pretty much hitting the wall like a yo-yo, about a thousand times a day, fighting myself really, to stay out of his space, sitting on my hands to not contact him, following those 4 Rules.

    I do have a fear (yup, there it is) that he might get the message that I simply don’t care to continue staying in touch, since I’ve been pretty active keeping in touch with him up to that point. I didn’t tell him I wanted him to initiate contact. I just waited to see what would happen.

    But increasingly I’m feeling that to not even send one tiny email that says Hi, thinking of you is a huge and possibly not productive change of behavior, right at the time when his heart needs comforting the most – and yes, I know that a change in behavior is the point. I honestly just can’t seem to get clear with myself about this – I keep flipping between: (a) There’s nothing you can do, it’s just another fear, and you should leave him alone, Jules and (b) gads, what if he thinks I just don’t care that he’s grieving, and I lose touch with him forever because I was too stubborn to email him?

    I’m making myself nuts trying to get clear on what’s the right action, or inaction, and to get back to a place of inner peace.

    Definitely in the blender here. I am grateful for anything anyone has to offer that might help me fish myself out of it.

    footnote: I do love this work/information! It has been a rich learning time for me since discovering it, and I’m practicing continually with everyone I meet, and in daily things.

  207.  #207Rori Raye on April 28, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    Jules – Welcome, and the problem is not if you email him or not – the problem is the tremendous amount of energy you’re giving over to this. If you were a “rock star” girl, and genuinely interested in him, and not attached in an unhealthy way – you could call him or not call him, and all would be well. But to drive yourself nuts over a man who is far away who is not contacting you – that’s where you need to put your work. You need to be dating real men right now – and by “real” I mean a man in the flesh, standing next to you, talking with you. I know this is hard to hear. I would absolutely call him to let him know I was thinking about him and hoping all is well – but in order to do that – I’d have to MEAN IT. the way you are now, contacting him is all about YOU and the RELATIONSHIP – and that’s the energy he’ll feel – that you’re actually calling because you want something from him – reassurance, contact…Love, Rori

  208.  #208Jules on April 28, 2010 at 10:11 pm

    Rori – Thank you so much! I’m on the road to action as of now, finding some real men to be with and get myself back to center. I know once I’m in myself again (and can stay there long enough), I can contact him and really give him the benefit of thinking of HIM, if that’s what I want to do.

    That’s exactly what kept slipping away from me – did I want to give him comfort or to give me comfort? I couldn’t hang on to the distinction, but I see now exactly what you mean and where I got stuck. Very slippery – there’s the work, bang on. Some of it, anyway. The rest is a continuing, delicious discovery.

    For now – I’m off to make a new profile.

    Thanks again for your response, for being my guide, and for this amazing world you have opened up for me. I’m feeling much happier – already!…..Love, Jules

  209.  #209Daria on April 28, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    Wow Jules – you sound liek an amazing siren. i feel intrigued by your voice

  210.  #210Jules on May 2, 2010 at 10:38 pm

    Wow, Daria, Thank you!! I’m feeling like an amazing siren. It’s a brand new (and I have to say fabulous) experience, and one I fully intend to keep building on. I like this!

    To continue the story: I did in fact immediately sign up with new dating profile. It did wonders for my frame of reference, self-esteem and sense of playful exploration. Very shortly I had responses, and I expect to have some real live dates with some real live men quite soon. I was burned out with dating men (mainly because I didn’t really know how to go about it or how to act or manage the dates), and now I’m so looking forward to dating and trying out some of these new things I’m learning.

    Then I sat down and had a talk with myself to ponder my original dilemma: did I want to contact this man for condolences and comfort for him, or for assurances for me? Both were true of course, so I waited until I could really and truly contact him for him. And because I didn’t want to stray from my intended path, I wrote myself a script to leave as a message. And then thought about what I would say if he actually picked up.

    He actually picked up. I said my script (authentically but with organization…). We had the most wonderful conversation and he kept it going for nearly an hour. I stayed in – and/or returned to – feeling statements and a truly relaxed state of being the whole time! I leaned back, even though I was just on the phone. I actually FELT the power and release of that, and his coming toward me. WOW! It was amazing!

    And he volunteered clearly he wants to continue. It was something I had been very unclear about. We’ll see what happens with that, but the important thing is that I used every Rori Raye tool I’ve learned so far (from the e-book, and the Modern Siren DVD’s), and I stayed so relaxed and happy!! I still feel happy and relaxed 3 days later, and looking forward to exploring the world of men and dating in a whole new way.

    I now have all the joy and fun in my heart of getting to know this man, along with other men – and practicing! I feel my energy back in my center, instead of pouring out toward him in some imaginary thing, and I’m not experiencing that terrible longing that I’d been feeling. If that relationship has true potential, it will now have a chance to grow and be what I REALLY want, because I’m becoming so much more who I really want to be! I’ve got my true magical siren self and lots of options.

    No doubt there will be stumbling blocks as I work my way through, but I’ve had an incredible personal breakthrough here, so thank you again, Rori!

    btw, I just received Targeting Mr. Right DVD set Friday, and I’ve been glued to it over the weekend. So far: invaluable!
    Love, Jules

  211.  #211forex robot on May 5, 2010 at 9:18 pm

    found your site on today and really liked it.. i bookmarked it and will be back to check it out some more later

  212.  #212seolace on May 6, 2010 at 5:21 am

    Nice post, thanks for writing!

  213.  #213Jackie on May 8, 2010 at 11:04 am

    In July my boyfriend and I will be dating two years. We have told each other we will be together always. When I asked if always ever included a commitment he said yes and I believe him. He has included me in every part of his life, areas that he has not let others in. He is a pack rat boarding on hoarding but is making strides to declutter his life in the free time he has. He works out of town and has to rent there during the week. after his probationary period at work he can apply to get something closer. He just changed jobs within the same employer which required the probation. At least this job gives him 1st shift with weekends off, it is a step in the right direction, from 3rd shift Mon/Tues off. I know he is committed to me. he tells me he loves me but its not something hes very comfortable doing. His son is 15 1/2, mine are 22 & 25. He asks me to do a lot of computer work/errands for him which I dont mind doing but sometimes I feel I dont get enough back. I know hed do about anything for me and he shows his love in a lot of little ways, mainly service. Most people who know me think I give too much with little return but they dont see the little efforts. I look at the longer picture. The only other contention is religion. I am very committed to mine and would like him to join me at least once which he promises to do. Does this relationship sound healthy? When I met “John” i was divorced for one year from a 26 year abusive relationship and Im not sure of my judgement.

  214.  #214TomPier on May 8, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    great post as usual!

  215.  #215Rori Raye on May 8, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    Jackie, Welcome, and from your letter I can’t really tell what’s going on. Possibly – you’re Overfunctioning and missing the red flags. On the face of it…all sounds okay – it’s just so difficult with the out-of-town thing. Or – I could not have enough information to help you. Please keep posting here and asking questions and telling your story – and we’ll all get a better idea of what’s going on with you – also – read everything you can here, and get the ebook if you can…so you can start practicing the Tools. It will help everything to settle down enough for you to get a clearer picture. Love, Rori

  216.  #216Hermes birkin bag on May 9, 2010 at 11:19 am

    One again, your article is very good.thank you!very much.

  217.  #217Vanessa on May 11, 2010 at 7:00 am

    I have a question…

    There is one thing my man does that doesn’t feel good and I don’t know how I should react because I feel I “shouldn’t” feel hurt… that’s when he tells me he has plans for the evening, the week, whatever, without including me in his decision-making. What I mean by that is NOT that I feel hurt he doesn’t include me in ALL of his plans! But that it hurts me that he doesn’t check if it’s alright with me. When he does that it makes me feel like we have completely separate lives, it doesn’t even feel like we’re a couple.

    So when that happens, up to now I would usually try and act casual about it, because I don’t feel like I am entitled to expect him to include me in his decision-making. He has not made a commitment, he has even clearly stated that he doubted things, so why should I expect him to act any different?

    The situation has come up again this morning. He told me about this play he was supposed to go see tomorrow night with a friend of his. Thing is tomorrow night is my brother’s birthday, and we were supposed to go together; I’d told him about it a couple of weeks before, and I knew he had forgotten the exact date because he never remember dates.

    So at that moment I was torn between being all “ok, whatever” and not remind him of the birthday plan, or tell him “but what about our plans of going to my brother’s birthday?”. But both options felt so WRONG. One is pretending, and the other feels very forward leaning. I can’t think of any other way to deal with the whole thing so I need suggestions…

  218.  #218Simply Shannon on May 11, 2010 at 8:13 am

    Vanessa: I don’t think it’s leaning forward for you to say “Oh. I feel bummed. I was feeling excited for us to go out for my brother’s birthday. What do you think?” And then see what he says.

    Try your best to let go of the outcome. Go in believing that you will have fun going out for your brother’s birthday regardless if he comes or not. Dress up, do what feels good to you, and circular date (aka eye contact/flirt/feeling messages) with tons of men that night.

  219.  #219Vanessa on May 11, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Thanks for replying! You’re right, it should be ok to just handle the situation with feeling messages, but I have such a hard time with them! I’m so used to hiding my feelings with him, I’m so utterly convinced that seeing the real me would totally turn him off… this is probably my biggest hurdle in this whole learning experience…

    Although, getting into the mindset of circular dating (which is what I want to do!) is another major one… I do want to feel like I’m not confined to and holding on to this one man who doesn’t give me what I want, but I actually HATE flirting, hate being hit on and avoid it like the pest, and the extra, ultra rare cases (seriously about once a year or couple of years) I’m attracted to a new man, he’s always unavailable (either already in a relationship… or gay.. or already in a relationship AND gay, lol)

    Anyway, it feels good to vent! Thanks again for your suggestion 🙂

  220.  #220Simply Shannon on May 11, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    V: You’re preachin’ to the choir girl! I still feel held up on circular dating and I KNOW it works when I do it. And maybe flirting this time around will be different now that we are all using feeling messages. I’m starting CDing again by dating myself. This means doing stuff that I think is fun for me. I’ve got a belly dance class setup for me and my girlfriends on Thursday. I pay attention when I’m at the grocery store and look at men. I haven’t done the 5 second stare yet but I’m working up to it. I strike up conversations when I’m out and feeling bold. I joined a few groups on I am developing my social network so that no one man is my network, kwim?

  221.  #221Gianna on May 19, 2010 at 10:42 am


    I feel like you just summed up my relationship in one post! I love it!

    Shannon, your reply was perfect for me too!

    Before I found Rori, about a year ago, I told my guy I wanted to date. He had no problem with it. I gave that up in about two weeks. I want to try again, but this time with Rori’s tools. I’m afraid though, because he’ll just think, “here she goes again.” But, whatever, I guess, it’s my life and my happiness.

    Maybe I should start the flirting thing and dating myself before I even embark on CD. What do you ladies think? I’m feeling kinda scared.

    I love this site!

  222.  #222Jackie on May 20, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Im not interested in CD. But I orered a Catholic singles magazine to come to the house just to make him think. We have been seeing each other for almost two years and neither of us is ready to get married but I want to know that its an option in the future. We tell each other we will always be together but never mention the terms. I once told him in a letter that I do not want to just live together. Right now our lives are so busy. And he works out of town during the week. We are working towards simplifying our lives, well mainly his.

  223.  #223Lovely on June 11, 2010 at 5:03 pm

    Question: I find myself stepping forward sometimes/too often using email. The guy will call, and yes “it” all works so much better when I just never step forward in any way, but, I will occasionally, and all/only using feeling messages, via email. That’s verboten too, right?

    Writing it out, of course I fee, that I should not, even if no calls come for some time, just wait it out and imagine myself in all the right lights, until he calls again. Our times together, in spite of a break he instigated in February, have, to my surprise, felt entirely closer lately. We were joking and laughing last night, and, like an idiot I asked if he loved me and he said no, but we were having such a good time, I [also idiotically] said, “Oh come on, I can tell you love me” and he almost looked embarrassed, and later as I was leaving said super nice things, and kept grabbing and kissing me as I leaned back, like, “You… are incredibly good-looking.” When I say, “I feel so great with you.” He responds that he feels great too. I feel so frustrated though, by his commitment phobe-iness. Following his “break” in February he said it feels like we should get engaged next (after 5 months), to which I replied that being with him feels so fun, and I enjoy it, though think we should just take it easy (there are actually issues I’d like to discuss prior to such a move). Yet I didn’t see him until recently when I happened to land an awesome internship near him (super prestigious spot, and I’m in grad school (and, had no other internship offer), just to back up my moving close to the guy. We were in contact the entire break time. So, I saw the summary of the 7 steps to commitment since that reads like a summary of what all I know about Rori’s sage advice already — what kind of other nuggets are in there? Who has used them to official “commitment” success? I’d love to hear some stories….

  224.  #224Lovely on June 11, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    Slight follow-up, if only bc I’m feeling… embarrassed and maybe defensive re my unfortunate questions, this guy also said last week, “We are trying to figure out if we love each other.” And he is a gigantic commitment phobe, though has been the only one of the two of us to bring up any commitment issues or words since our meeting September 09.

  225.  #225Daria on June 11, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Lovely Commitment Blueprint is an awesome in depth program with huge tools.

  226.  #226blacklily on January 12, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Blessings beautiful Queens 🙂 I’m new and I love love the energy here!

    I have been reading off and on about how to incorporate CD while still dating the man I have invested in for the past 6 months. CD is going well and I have been getting loads of attention and the ability to test my feelings and intentions out on them. Some have gone and still others have returned, but still I test my own energy, my own willingness to love… my own intentions.

    In light of my dating “truckman #2” I see that had I focused all of my energy on him I would have been drained to the point of suicide. Suicide of heart, mind, body and spirit. I gave and gave while he took and sometimes deflected my desire to love. His defense to my love always came in the form of short temperedness or jokes jokes and more jokes. He is the funniest and most light hearted man I have ever met in my life. And it felt good… until I understood the mask. The defense to my intentions.

    I finally opened up to him today. I didn’t fear the “eggshell” feeling of not wanting to share my emotions. I now see it was how I was delivering it that brought on his defenses and short tempered rebuttles. How can you say that? Didn’t I? What did I tell you before? Why are you impatient? etc. etc.

    I gave him a seemingly endless stream of feeling messages today. I didn’t know if I would ever stop the fluid nature of the riff… it just went on and on. It poured out onto him, back onto me.. onto us.

    Yet he refused to acknowledge my feelings of sadness. He refused to acknowledge us… He combated my emotions with more jokes. Jokes about how I wished I could do his laundry and massage his back, but I am sad about the impossibility of it all as you have stated. He chose to focus on why I couldn’t do his laundry. He doesn’t like anyone doing his laundry. He is an ass when it comes to it. He also said that it would start another tv show called “Intimacy Gone Wrong Because You F’d Up My Laundry”

    There was a complete disconnect of emotions. I thought that at different points he showed emotion, but now I only see it was either anger, disgust or laughter.

    My feeling messages went on for days yet he didn’t acknowledge my fear, my sadness, my numbness, my zombiedom… nothing.

    Maybe it’s due to him not having digested what I wrote. So I am leaning back and waiting on a more insightful and mature response. I am prepared that it may never come.

    I am estatic about the power I feel due to being open and ready for what comes my way. No matter if it’s an OUCH, an OK? an Oh really? Or a Wow, I never knew you really felt that deeply for me…. It doesn’t matter what comes. What matters is how I feel during the moment of reception. I may not want you after all….

  227.  #227Dandelion on June 9, 2011 at 7:48 pm

    If my husband has a special interest/obsession/special feeling for another woman. I noticed he pays attention to her more than myself on a few group trips. I confronted him and he now wears sun glasses when he anticipates an encounter with that couple (the women is very happily married). I don’t like going or being anywhere when that couple is around because i will end up feeling terrible. What tool do i need to change this situation. Am I having low self-esteem? I have started to focus on myself more but what qualities do I have that fuels his behavior? Many thanks and Bless.

  228.  #228Rick on October 10, 2011 at 10:02 am

    I am a man, I saw your site and thought a woman would probably be my best help. So here it goes. I am married
    for 27 years. For the past 10 years my wife and I grew apart. We talked about it, went for counseling and realized we are not in love any more. We live like best friends and roommates. Not like a husband and wife. My wife also over these 10 years has lost interest in sex, she blames it on early menopausal issues. So we decided to divorce. We are both fine in all this. Here is the problem, I met a woman 4 years ago and started a friendship with her that grew into a love relationship between us. Even though it was against both our principles we made love and fell in love. My girlfriend knew all up front,except shethought our divorce would have been faster, which is my fault because I wanted my wife to initiate the process. Before I met this woman four years ago my wife said she wanted a divorce.
    So I waited for her to initiate the process, not knowing I would fall for another woman. The reason for the delay in our divorce was financial, too many things hit all at once.
    You name it it happened, my daughter was going to college, the economy got bad, my investments tanked on me, and job loss. So now I am in the process of my divorce but my girlfriend feels she fell out of love with me. She feels I should have moved it faster for us to be together. Now she tells me that she does not want sex which we have been holding off of any way and says get the divorce and we will see how she feels after this. Now in between all this she has been true to me and I true to her. She mentioned that somebody was interested in courting her and asked me how I felt? I said I am in love with her and her only and asked her not to let anybody in between.
    I want to marry her and have a family with her. So far she has not let anybody in. As per her request, she just wants to see eachother as friends which is what we are doing. We get together play tennis, go to a movie, have dinner etc. Her rule is no intamacy till I am divorced, I agreed. I am in love with her no doubt, I know she loves me no doubt.
    I just wonder can she fall back in love with me? How do I handle this? I don’t want to lose her. How do I keep her without pressuring her? I don’t want to smother her yet I want her to know I am there for her. How do I reassure her of this as I go through the process of divorce. I am finding my relationship with her tougher than the divorce because as a man I don’t know if I am reading her right. I lover so much and she knows it, yet I feel I could lose her if I don’t play my cards right. I hope you can help me. Signed, Rick, A man lost in love as he goes through a divorce.

  229.  #229mandy on April 16, 2012 at 9:08 am

    I am lost and hope someone can help. I started a relationship with a guy whom I was friends with for 7 years. I always knew he was interested but never crossed that line. We would talk about our relationships throughout the friendship and then last August he finally came forward with his feelings for me in midst of us both looking to change our lives and move. Ironically we both were thinking of moving to the same place it seemed like a romance novel rigth from the start. I decided to give it a try and we took off it was all fireworks. We pronouced our love for each other within a few weeks and moved away together to a new city getting a place together, since we’d not even really spent any time apart or night apart from beginning. Then we got there..he was starting a new business and traveling all the time so he was gone and I was stuck in a new place with no one and a job I hated. We had an incident with a girl calling me in Dec saying they’d been talking and just cut things off in Nov! That was into when we were together! She said they just tected and talked on phone…now he’s super protective of his phoen and laptop…so he denied it and a big deal happened, we worked through it and since I couldnt prove it had to let it go. I love him. It just got worse I was paranoid and he was away all the time..the intamacy was dwindling down and I just felt the distance creeping in. After a couple months of this we decided to move back where I had a great job opporunity we had family and friends and his house that hadn’t sold. So we were on track to move back well he freaked on night in middle of this and gave me this letter saying his feeling of love for me had changed and weren’t as strong and that he wanted to get it back and for us to be together but that he felt living together again when we moved would be a mistake…all thwese things I was devistated. We eneded up working it out and moved together only to have things not really change with no intamacy and the phoen laptop secracy. I couldn’t take it anymore..I had never kept anything secret from him, he had access to all my things etc. I looked at hs laptop when he was out and found all these photos from his phone uploaded from other women..lots of other woman-up until oce of last year when we were dating last bad photo being right before our exclusive talk…two days before so all of what I saw showed he’d lied about a lot of things…be it there were mostly before us he still lied about some of the girls I saw and things I saw etc. I deleted the photos to me it was deleting the lies. I also saw he’d been on some porn sites which he always denied and swore (still is) that he doesn’t do anything to take care of himself even though we aren’t having sex and isn’t cheating and never did. He foudn out I looked at laptop and deleted the pics and told me he was done he didn’t want this anymore and lots bad things were said. His brother came into town at same time who mloves me and helped talk to him…I apologized as it wasn’t my place to delete the pics, he should have nor should I have looked but is it ok to have those and not share his phoen or laptop..I see why now..but does that mean as we are right now trying to work through this although he has been very mean and cold and not sure he wants it or that it can be fixed since he feels no attraction toward me now …and never said he’s sorry only I have…he’s started being some what sweet again touching me in last few days it’s all only been like a little over a week we had a fun weekend and all I just dont’ know what to do! I don’t know which book is right for me here…I want to save things, I love him and know he loves me and is good man..even though he refuses to tell me he loves me right now…bc he’s “not sure” if he does now…am I stupid to stay…I don’t want to move out..we just moved back and unpacked everything a whole house mixed togheter…what do I do?? HELP! Scared and in love…

  230.  #230Rori Raye on April 16, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Mandy – I hardly ever suggest this – but I think counseling would be good for you. If he doesn’t want to – just get out of there…if it’s both of you needing to work out your own crap – give it a try. I really want to encourage you to get some coaching for yourself…try Dominique at, try Virginia Clark at ….get some help. We’ll all support you here… Love, Rori

  231.  #231Alice on May 22, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Hello Rori:
    I desperately need your wisdom. I’ve read the blog above and realized I might be doing something wrong in the way I communicate w/my fiance.
    We have always had to work hard at our relationship because we come from such different pasts. The one thing that has worked for us it talking through our problems and trying to solve them, which most of the time we do thankfully. We have been together for a yr and a half now and we recently got engaged. All of a sudden, the last month we have been constantly fighting. Recently he realized how difficult his finances are and has family problems that are interfering with our relationship. This should be the happiest time of my life and I’m miserable instead. He picks at me all the time about how I say things, is angry with me that I don’t want to move in together before we get married (I don’t believe in it), and now is using things that he says he compromised in the past against me. I don’t know what to do. I love him and want to start our lives together, but everything he is doing right now makes me want to run away from him. I try to discuss things and he just gets angry and and raises his voice and says inconsiderate mean selfish things. This is not the man I fell in love with.
    Is there hope for us?
    I’m starting to reconsider this engagement. Please help, thank you.

  232.  #232Rori Raye on May 22, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Alice….all you can do is stop YOUR side of the fights. Get any program – Toxic Men would be great, so you can learn how to “Power Speak.” Love, Rori

  233.  #233Isabella on June 23, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Hi Rori,
    First of all – thank you for everything, you’ve changed my life! I got your ‘Modern Siren’ programm and ‘Have the Relationship…’ e-book. I met a wonderful guy, after 3 months he proposed, we’ve been together 9 months now and getting married in January. He’s loving, caring, devoted to me, accept that I want to wait with sex till we’re married. Our relationship has its taugh moments though as well but he’s always the one who takes the first step to make it up. Although I have a problem.

    He used to spend all his spare time with me, gave up hanging out with guys (except for one best friend he spend time with sometimes). He was always saying that he loves fishing although during these 9 months he went fishing only twice. Recently though he seems to want to do it more often. I know it’s his hobby, but it feels to me like if he was loseing his desire to spend time with me. However I guess it’s not healthy to spend every single moment only with each other and that he needs some male company too. But the thing is, he wants to go fishing for the nights. And as I can accept him going fishing during the day it just doesn’t feel good to me when he’s gone for the night. It’s not that I don’t trust him, because I do 100%. We’re not living together so it is not an actual issue yet, but I want to sort out some things before we get married and he moves in with me. So I spoke to him about it, that it doesn’t feel good to me to be left for the night and that I’d expect from my husband to spend nights with me. So he answered that it’s not gonna happen often and it’s his hobby etc and that I seem to force him to give up his hobby. I do not want him to give up, only that night part of it. But I’m confused, it really doesn’t make me feel ok the idea of having husband leaving me for all night (even if it’s gonna happen once a cauple of months it’s just doesn’t feel good to me. But maybe I am oversensitive or selfish, I’m not sure if that’s ok to ask for giving up this. But this is what I want actually.
    And that’s the other issue. I guess something’s wrong with my feeling messages because when I say ‘I feel’, ‘it feels’, ‘i want’, ‘i don’t want’ etc he says it’s always about me, what I want, how I feel, what would make me happy, what I don’t like… and what about him he asks, about his feelings etc. So I don’t know, am I useing them wrong or is it him who doesn’t get it. Well, thank you for reading, I’m sorry if it’s silly, and hope for help x

  234.  #234Mandy on June 25, 2012 at 9:05 am

    Rori- thank you for responding. Things went up and down the last few weeks since I wrote. I am moving out and he said he’s done and doesn’t want this anymore, me or our relationship. He says this and then goes back to saying hes trying. We has agreed to have space-me moving out and see how it went/ Well I am in process of moving out and it was going good and then it took a terrible turn..he freaked out and said again he’s done if anything after a couple weeks after i’m totally out of us not talking we may be able to haev something again, maybe. I’m so angry and hurt! I love him but it’s so back and forth. I am weak I guess and trying to move out now as fast as I can, between work etc all on my own and it’s just so scary…I thought he was the man i’d spend my life with. How did it get so bad? I know I did everything wrong by pushing and trying and staying instead of just giving him space. Am I crazy to even still want to have something with someone who obviously can’t really care about me? I want a real partner, i have wanted it to be him and obviously he doesn’t want to be….I’m so sad….

  235.  #235Alysia on March 26, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    Dear Rori,

    I’m very confused about Section 6 (Your Toxic Partner) His Toxic behaviors add up to 44 and his Loving Behaviors add up to 25. Is he borderline Toxic and Difficult or out-and-out Toxic?


  236.  #236Rori Raye on March 26, 2013 at 4:36 pm

    Alysia – Technically, he falls into the “Difficult” category. And with a score of 44 on the Toxic scale – how do YOU feel about his qualities? Love, Rori