Dating and Money

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date-linedrawingMoney is tight – so who pays for a date?

He does.

Yes, sounds unfair, sounds anti-feminist, and yet – this is the difference between “friends hanging out together” and a “date.”

A date is about romance. It’s not about companionship or friendship. And it’s not just about sex. It’s about the whole package, it’s about building a romantic relationship step-by-step – and the steps are “dates.”

And in order for romance to happen – for it to even get started – a man has to feel like a man.

What does that look like? For a man to FEEL like a man? He needs to feel appreciated (but in a different way than YOU do. You need appreciation for your warmth and juicyiness, and sexiness, and loveliness – and He needs to be appreciated for his brain power, his manliness, and for what he can PROVIDE – even if it’s simply frozen yogurt or a walk in the park.)

Sound old-fashioned? Sound like the old Cinderella thing? Well – it is. Except for some tweaks that we all have to work with and get used to and make work for us…romance still lies in the emotional, subconscious, cells-of-our-bodies places that “modernity” has never, and will never touch.

Love and romance are feelings – and they have nothing whatever to do with opinions.

Being beautiful and smart and rich and loving and nurturing and fun will get you NOWHERE with a man if he’s not “feeling” it for you.

(Whereas we women can quite turn a handsome, smart, rich, loving, nurturing, fun man into an object of desire – and well we SHOULD – a man doesn’t work quite that way. He’s either “into you” or he’s not – and he won’t even be able to explain the reasons why or why not. Romance is won or lost in the realm of emotions – and the way to win at love is to find your feelings and learn to share them with every man who shows up.

Romance is inspired by feminine energy – yours. Here’s how to get into your feminine energy and inspire romance…without paying for it, and without breaking his bank account, either:

1. Romance and love and dating have absolutely NOTHING to do with WHAT you do or WHERE you go. It has nothing to do with the date being in a romantic setting, or at a romantic time, or even if the date is “nice” or “pleasant” or even “great”!

What we women consider “great” may not ring any chimes with HIM.

So – don’t care about what you DO on a date. Spending money on a nice dinner to score points on a date is a bad investment for a man – and it’s possibly the LEAST romantic thing you can do.

I’ll tell you what’s romantic – going to the zoo or animal welfare shelter if you’re into animals. Going for a walk or a hike if you’re into nature. Sitting in a coffee shop in a strip mall in a suburb you’ve never been to and talking about the people who walk by as characters in a movie – making up their lives. hanging out in a big bookstore or library and looking at things together and separately. Walking around stores or art galleries or the beach.

Romantic has absolutely nothing to do with money.

So – first – get that into your head, and come up with a LIST of things you think might be fun for a SHORT – let’s say under an hour get-to-know-you first date, and for LONG dates – entire evenings – without including tickets to the theater or even ridicualously expensive movies on a Saturday night.

Okay – that’s you, being creative. Now let’s talk about how to share this with HIM.

2. First – let me explain masculine and feminine energy (let’s this “boy” and “girl” energy), and how it works on a date:

You’re in “boy energy” when you’re THINKING about anything, DOING anything, GIVING anything, making a DECISION about anything, taking the INITIATIVE about anything, FOLLOWING UP or CHASING DOWN or SUGGESTING anything, or anything that looks and feels like what I call “Leaning Forward.”This could look like driving, starting a conversation, calling, texting, emailing…and PAYING.

Girl energy, on the other hand, is all about FEELING anything, RECEIVING anything, RADIATING, SHARING – and just BEING.

When you are in boy energy – you get stuff done. You are smart and clever. And you do not inspire romance. Respect, maybe. Friendship for sure. Even awe. But not romance.

When you are in girl energy – you ARE romance! That’s it. A man is desperately lonely. No matter what you think, or what he says, or what his history looks like – the man in front of you is LONELY.

He’s lonely because he cannot FEEL romance on his own. He needs a woman to feel that with. And he can’t supply the necessary feelings for it. He needs YOU to supply the emotions that cook up romance. He needs YOU to make him feel OKAY with his feelings by feeling your OWN feelings.

And the moment you pay for anything – you’ve just turned into a guy.

3. So what do you say when the talk about money comes up? Try this:

“I’m feeling old-fashioned these days. I don’t care what we do – I don’t need fancy or expensive, but I don’t feel good paying for stuff around dating. It would feel great to do whatever you think is fun and get to know you. What do you think?”

Okay – notice the words.

Notice how many times I said the word “feel”? That’s the point! SHARING how you feel is what you want to do to help yourself get into your feelings instead of your opinions, which are so much easier. Notice how I said what I “don’t want” instead of trying to lay out what I DO want? Notice how when I said what I want (to do whatever he thinks is fun…) I only said that it would “feel great”?

As subtle as this sounds – it’s actually HUGE.

Giving instructions, directions, and opinions from your thinking brain is a recipe for romantic failure. Don’t do it.

If he asks you what you’d like to do – you have your LIST! Say “I actually wondered about that. I sat down and wrote a list of the things that feel fun, that make me feel good, that don’t cost a lot…would you like to see it?”

Or course he would.

So you can read it to him, or hand it to him out of your purse…and then…you have a GREAAT thing to TALK ABOUT!

Forget about the stories you’ve told every first date. Talk about what’s going on NOW. Right now. “I feel glad you asked me, and It feels good to be asked, and it feels even better to follow you around and find out who you are, too. Ask him “So what’s on YOUR list around town?”

4. If this is a first date – he already knows if he’s smitten with you. And it still might take him a week or two to call you. And if he’s not sure, he may call, or he may not.

No matter what – stay with being a “girl” – stay with the ROMANCE you want, and let him do his job as a man.

Let him call you. Let him ask you out. Let him come up with a plan. And let him pay.

If this is a man you’re dating (and if you’re familiar with my work about a life-plan I call “Circular Dating” you know you ONLY stop dating when you’re ENGAGED) – then you can make a sandwich or popcorn for him occasionally at your place (please no fancy, impressive meals). You can “give back” and still be a girl, as long as it’s small, something YOU enjoy, and infrequent.

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1Ann on July 16, 2009 at 9:34 pm

    I hope the men respond to this post. I’d like to know if this is how they think.

    Around here(my town) the perception I have from what I’ve seen is guys think romance=sex always.

  2.  #2alias girl on July 16, 2009 at 10:55 pm

    i felt very girly and excited reading this post. i feel so good to have examples of possible language to use because i felt unsure how to actually broach this. i feel excited. i felt ROMANCE adn fun as i read all the ideas of different things two people can do while getting to know one another.

  3.  #3Maria on July 17, 2009 at 12:15 am

    l have been lucky – fortunately none of my dates l havent been even worried about money – it is natural that lm the queen of the night and he just takes care of me.

  4.  #4JasonSavage on July 17, 2009 at 12:46 am

    “Money is tight – so who pays for a date? He does.”
    “A date is about romance.”
    “Romantic has absolutely nothing to do with money.”

    Yawn. Circular Dating sounds about as exciting as this circular reasoning….. Wait. Women don’t reason (see above).

    The article has some good points (about creative dates that are not expensive), but money is no measure of manhood or womanhood, masculinity or femininity, boy energy OR girl energy…

    To expect and require a man to defer to you based solely on your gender is a recipe for disaster.

    A man finances your social life (along with the additional resources of other men, of course, this is circular dating) and he doesn’t even get sandwiches and popcorn until after the engagement?

    Now that is narcissistic and disrespectful.

    Again, I agree that romance has nothing to do with money and we should strive to get to know each other for free. Most activities on your list should involve no cost. Those that do can be split without gender-based entitlement.

    If a man wines & dines you – because you request or demand this ‘chivilrous’ treatment – you have just reduced yourself to a sex object. If he has paid anything for you, he feels entitled to sex (after all “a man is desperately lonely). Surely you FEEL this to be true…

    It is a two-way street. Men must learn how to attract women without using conspicuous consumption, wining & dining, or double-standards. High status is often misdefined by wealth. That is why we are teaching men skills that show a sense of responsibility, authenticity, and honest character. How to connect without pulling out your wallet.

    Paying is never “his job as a man.”

    Just as it is not your job as a woman to “make him feel OKAY with his feelings by feeling your OWN feelings.”


    “A man is desperately lonely. No matter what you think, or what he says, or what his history looks like – the man in front of you is LONELY.”

    Men, you

  5.  #5JasonSavage on July 17, 2009 at 12:54 am

    Grr…. I had one more thing to say….

    “A man is desperately lonely. No matter what you think, or what he says, or what his history looks like – the man in front of you is LONELY.”

    Men, you have to understand that being lonely is far better than giving in (because you are desperate, right?) to a woman who does not believe in equality, respect, and reciprocity. This is a woman who will always have lopsided narcissistic demands.

    Life is about choices. Respect yourself, insist on equality, and walk away if you have to…

    You know, being single and “desperately lonely” is far better than being in the wrong relationship.

  6.  #6interested on July 17, 2009 at 1:02 am

    i feel that it is very interesting how jasonsavage “reasons” his way into treating his dates as prostitutes- “If he has paid anything for you, he feels entitled to sex”, then claims that women do not reason. i guess a pick-up artist is just led by his penis and really has no desire to connect with any woman except in the physical sense, huh jason?

  7.  #7Justin on July 17, 2009 at 1:39 am

    Traditional dating is expensive, and not really recommended by most guys who truly know how to enjoy their time with women to the fullest. However, expecting a man to pay for you should you and he opt for a traditional date (ie. dinner and a movie) is part of what leads to the separation of the sexes.

    Some men who pay for dates do indeed expect things (kissing at least, probably sex) from their dates. Not getting what they want, and going broke trying to get that breeds resentment in men, who call perfectly lovely women “gold diggers.”

    Women who earnestly offer to pay their own way show respect for their men. Should the date go less than optimally, and each have paid their own way, both parties can feel happy that they know more about someone new, and not have the loss of the cost of dinner, or the awkwardness of sitting across the table from someone they have no interest in who just paid for their food, interfere with the potential beauty of the meeting someone new, even if there’s no romantic interest.

  8.  #8Katja on July 17, 2009 at 2:10 am

    Jason…I don’t want to attack you…but if you can read…Rori didn’t say you get sandwiches and popcorn only if you are engaged!

    I get kind of a weird vibe from you and I don’t like that here on this blog as it should help women to be or to become more feminine. I feel that having men commenting here doesn’t help with that because they are too much in their brain as we can see from their comments and that triggers us women so we are throwing opinions at each other here and get away from what we wanted to develop more. And that is feeling and being.

    I personally do not feel good or equal or whatever by paying for whatever (dinner,movie,icecream,etc.) on a first date.

    And I feel,too,that you-Jason-don’t get what Rori is talking about because you are a man and sorry…but men and women are not equal and are wired differently. So it feels to me like theres some kind of misunderstanding reading Rori’s post and reading your comments.

  9.  #9cindy on July 17, 2009 at 4:01 am

    I agree 100 percent with Katja. Rori is teaching us the exact opposite of what society has us thinking. Rori has us in touch and feeling. Jason just confuses the issue. I knew alot of this stuff prior to Rori, she just reinforces it for me and makes it all come full circle and clear. I talk about my feelings more than ever before and I have the men literally chasing me, as if they don’t know what hit them. I feel Rori has inspired me to open my heart. I feel so so greatful for that.

  10.  #10Tracy on July 17, 2009 at 4:33 am

    I feel that this post speaks so much truth based on my past experiences about dating.Thank you Rori….
    I often have felt the urge to help with preparing for dates,suggested places tried to make the man feel comfortable and it always felt bad in the end because i felt like i was over doing things….all the time…
    I also feel that its great to let the man be the man and this does not mean that you make him spend all his money…..but instead let him take initiative on where to go and what to do….men love to do that…and i feel that when u deny him that…then you also deny yourself the pleasure of having him take care of you and feeling that feminine energy blend with him masculine energy…..
    I feel triggered by Jason’s reaction to the post….Not negatively though……it feels interesting to read a man’s reaction to this post… least one who in my view regards equality between men and women as crucial.
    I understand now why i should remain the woman and feel how i feel and share that with my man…..because when i don’t then i usually shift to equality and i feel myself wanting the man to be more…do more….like i am doing….
    when i am just feeling….i don’t feel the need to be equal….i don’t feel like i am doing so much….and i don’t feel like if he leaves or things don’t work out…the world will come to an end….i have me and i can take care of myself….
    It feels more like him being there enables me to share more of myself,and discover more about myself…I share my love my joy,my happiness…myself….
    It feels better to share my feelings and just listen to him and let him take the lead….i feel more secure more loved….
    I am still on baby steps of course…..and i feel that with each step i learn more about myself….
    I am having a date today and i can’t wait to just practice more on my feelings and letting the man take the lead…

  11.  #11Rori Raye on July 17, 2009 at 5:51 am

    Katja – love your fire…Rori

  12.  #12Rori Raye on July 17, 2009 at 5:54 am

    Justin, Welcome, and unless you’ve met the woman of your dreams and are engaged or married to her, I take your take here with a grain of salt. My advice to you, then, is….don’t ask a woman out on a date unless you’re really interested in her – this requires your getting to know if you’re interested in her in creative ways…Rori

  13.  #13Rori Raye on July 17, 2009 at 5:55 am

    Whoa – listen to the anger here! Fabulous!…Interested, welcome, and can you tell us some of your experience and how you feel? Jason is just a guy. He’s opinionated, but he’s an opportunity to bring up your feelings instead of your own opinions. Love, Rori

  14.  #14Rori Raye on July 17, 2009 at 5:59 am

    Jason – you’re off message here…and you’re derailing your own love life by being inflexible here. You’re lacking some key insight. My take is this: If you have money enough to take care of yourself and half your children, and you’re a good, conscious guy also – you have options. You can choose. If you’re missing one of those, you’re stuck forever in defense of your missing piece. People fit on all levels, but, really, they must both be whole and self-sustaining. Things look different from there. Rori

  15.  #15Katja on July 17, 2009 at 7:17 am

    Thank you Rori! That is a HUGE compliment 🙂

    And…I love that last comment from you. Thats what I wanted to say,too,but I didn’t find the right words… It’s not that easy as I always have to translate first…

  16.  #16Simply Shannon on July 17, 2009 at 7:40 am

    I feel girly. I feel grateful for the many different examples of what to say to overcome my own tendency to be the boy and pay my share. I feel so much better when I’m not pursuing. It completely changes my vibe when I pay. I feel weird when I pay. I feel insecure when I pursue. I don’t know why but there is definitely a switch in my brain that goes to insecure mode when I’m pursuing.

    I feel bored having this same discussion over and over. I really appreciate the comments from the men on the island. Really. In the first few go rounds, this would really have triggered me. Now – I just feel blah about it. I’m not going to reason with anyone. I only know how I feel. So I’ll say it once more. [Imagine I’m tilting my head to the left and looking you directly in the eye.] I don’t want to pursue. I feel cheap and unimportant when I’m expected to pay. I don’t want to feel that way. Having words crammed down my throat isn’t going to change how I feel about it either. I feel bad that I can’t meet you halfway about this but it wouldn’t be authentic for me to say “okay”. What do you think?

    I feel good trying this dating thing a new way. I love being the girl. I used to be a “” chick. But I can see the results right in front of me. I have a man now who loves ME (not the candy coated, always sweet Shannon – the one who would pay or plan dates or [insert boy stuff here] because she thought that was the nice thing to do).

    To the men: Maybe trying the dating thing a different way wouldn’t be so bad, would it? What do you think? What would it hurt to try paying for every single date for a solid month…just to see what happens. Sort of a “month long trial”? A challenge to see what you can learn about yourself and how creative you can be with dates so that your wallet can handle it? I would LOVE to hear how all about it.

  17.  #17Tracy on July 17, 2009 at 8:00 am

    Simply Shannon,
    I can totally identify with being the nice chic paying for everything……I was so nice that when the men finally found their mates they wanted me to help organize their weddings…..and that felt really bad….
    It makes so much sense now and especially when Jason mentioned the word equality,i felt a light bulb moment for me…..because for my part i always thought i was applying a sense of being equal by always thinking of ways to help out with the bills,suggest places and just basically lean all the way forward….It didn’t feel right and the men i was dating sensed it and shut down…and compensate that i would sacrifice even more and it just felt like a roller coaster for me…..
    I have been going out for dates and i don’t suggest the venue and i don’t pay….i feel more at ease and my self esteem is really getting better…..
    When i finally settle down with a good guy i do intend to assist in finances…..most definitely but he will still take me out to dinners and buy me gifts as i am to be treated as a goddess forever…..if he intends to keep me around that is….I don’t intend to be a man in any relationship i have….

  18.  #18Justin on July 17, 2009 at 8:12 am

    It’s odd. I find part of me is rejecting this, but part of me accepts your argument. A man in his masculine will be the one inviting women to his dates, and should they happen to cost money, as the inviter, it is his job to cover the costs.

    My sister and I also had a conversation about this, and she pointed out that while men may complain about the cost of dates, they don’t have to foot the bill for the make-up, bras, etc. that women do, so even on a purely masculine and logical level, it’s hard for me to argue against you.

    The only time this situation has ever bothered me is when the woman I was dating failed to show appreciation for it. Both men and women delight in caring for each other in our own special ways, and neither of us likes to feel like that special way is being taken for granted, or even overly expected. I think that’s the reason for my initial knee-jerk reaction, the case that there’s the feeling of being conned at worst, and under-appreciated for the value I’ve just provided at best.

    Talking to my sister, who’s dated her boyfriend for years, she made it clear that even if she’s going to pay for dinner, she hands him the cash beforehand in order that it can still be him paying, so she still gets to feel that feeling without forcing him to go broke supporting her.

  19.  #19Jimmm Roark on July 17, 2009 at 8:26 am

    I am going to have to cut a middle path between Jason and Rori.

    I personally find my self pretty frustrated/upset with myself after I pay for a date that doesn’t go well. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, which could be lessened, if there was some mutual investment in meeting.

    What happens – A guy pays for a date, he may feel like he over invested, while his date underinvested, and directly from that, he FEELS less respect from his date. Glowing appreciation helps, but reciprocity is the real key.

    Allow a man to decide to pay, but directly make it up to him by covering some other ‘cost’ or investment.

    Without mutual respect, I can see no place for a relationship to go but into a corner to die.

    I have literally stopped seeing women (more than one) that expected or act entitled towards being paid for.

    If and when I do decided to pay (which is fairly often with dates I enjoy and respect), I want it to be my decision.

    I find it sexy to have a woman offer to pay for things.

    The caution here, and I believe this is what Rori was getting at – is that as a woman, you really need to watch yourself – be careful of over investing, by either offering to pay for too much, or putting forth a disproportionate amount of work for a date, because when there’s an imbalance in investment, respect is on the chopping block.

  20.  #20DRC on July 17, 2009 at 9:43 am

    I have been reading this blog from the sidelines for a number of months and I have finally decided to chime in. Firstly, I would like to express my appreciation for all of you. I have rejoiced with you and cried with you and learned from you all. Thank you.

    I have lived a version of Rori’s method naturally all my life, but have learned to become even more authentic and comfortable in my feelings and their expression through this site.

    I am currently living with a much younger man (12 years!). We have been together for over 2 years now. Things are really great between us (once I got over the weirdness and resistance associated with being with a younger man, since I had previously only dated older men and was not planning to change that…).

    My comment today is this. I get and appreciate Rori’s idea that a man should have the space and support of being a “man” and I agree that taking financial charge is often an important way to allow that. In my situation however, I am in a much better financial situation than my boyfriend. I am a doctor doing research at a prestigious medical institution. My boyfriend is just getting his career life started and is actually struggling at the moment. So I pay for things. BUT, I lean back and I am feminine and I do not overfunction in any aspect of our life together. He leans forward and gives me an abundance of affection and “takes care of me” and appreciates our time and life together. For us, this arrangement works well.

    Through this site I have learned how to communicate with him and create a positive space where we can be together happily despite the supposedly backward balance. I have told him that I do not want to be in a relationship where I always take care of everything financially (although the contributions may never be equal), and I know that he sincerely wants to do more and will, when he can. But for now we are comfortable with this situation.

    Those are my two cents for now.

  21.  #21Andrew on July 17, 2009 at 10:30 am

    While I think it’s great that the women reading this feel empowered in their pursuit to find the man and the relationship they truly want, the reasoning and methods that Rori describes seem to only make sense to women.

    This is the most fundamental flaw, in my opinion. In order to get a man to be “into you,” you, as a woman, must understand the messages your words/actions convey about you and your intentions, and learn to send the right messages. It may make sense to you, but if he doesn’t get it, it doesn’t matter. You’ve failed to communicate the right message. You’re looking at it from your perspective and not his, then getting frustrated because men and women don’t think in the same ways.

    It’s the same for both sexes. Finding a good match requires you to not only know what you want, but to understand your partner and learn to communicate effectively those desires with them, as well as understanding their own desires of you.

    For me, a woman that expects me to pay for everything on a first date just screams manipulative or high-maintenance. I’d feel like a chump, used for entertainment, free drinks, or a source of emotional validation, then forgotten when the next easy target or shiny object comes along. Not all women are like that, but almost every guy has met one and people make assumptions based on past experiences. It’s basic psychology.

    Once I’ve gotten to know a girl and there’s some trust and mutual respect, then I don’t have a problem paying, but I’m still not going to pay for everything all the time. She has to be willing to invest in me if I’m investing in her, or I’ll feel used.

    Think Lover versus Provider. The traditional provider concept is bullshit and a double standard. As Rori explained, it’s about getting to know one another. We’re not getting married on the first date, so the provider idea is a moot point. I’ll be a good lover first, then if I like you and we get serious, I’ll be a provider.

    I agree with Jason though. A woman that demands a provider first before becoming a lover is using her sexual value as a barter, much the same as prostitute.

    Ultimately, women don’t respect men who supplicate and caves to such demands or unequal expectations in a relationship, basically buying sex because they’re not man enough to attract a women otherwise. You’ll find that in psychology books also, so be careful what you wish for.

  22.  #22Simply Shannon on July 17, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Tracy: Amen. I’m going to BE a goddess forever…whether he likes it or not. 🙂

    Justin: I feel so appreciative when a man takes me wherever (even if it’s free) and he’s given the gift of his time, the gift of getting to know each other and just the gift of wanting to have fun with me. I respect that so much more than the “money” behind it. Even if I didn’t have a connection with my date (assuming he’s not being physically aggressive or anything that would make me want to run), I would still have a good time, and I would still show my appreciation. WE would have fun together. Besides I’m bringing ME to the party – I’m going to look good, feel good, smell good, sound good, and taste good. If I put in all that, I’m going to feel shortchanged and cheap if the guy looks at me and says “your half will be $20”. 🙂

    I feel so goddessy and yummy right now. Just writing about bringing ME to the party is making me smile. I love this new girl I am and truthfully I love seeing men in a new way. I really appreciate men being men. I LOVE men. Even if I don’t agree with their logic, it doesn’t matter. I can feel yummy and sexy and turned on AND respect him because he’s being a man and saying what he thinks. I can influence him without telling him what to do or what to think just by expressing my feelings. I can stop pushing and controlling. (It never worked anyway!) What a relief!

  23.  #23Poetry of Flesh on July 17, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Hi Rori, I’ve been reading your blog for a bit now, never really had much to say before.

    I feel that when money intrudes into a date, it immediately sets things off-kilter. Especially the first date. We’re supposed to be exploring each other, seeing if we would like to meet again, and yes, there is the cost of clothes and make-up on the part of the woman, but chances are, we would have those items whether or not we were out with a man.

    I almost always pay for myself on a first date, or at least I try. It’s not because I’m not feminine, but because, until otherwise stated, we’re casually seeing each other. He has no responsibility or obligation towards me. If he feels like paying, I will not stop him. But I’m certainly not going to expect it of him.

    We’re equals. Our sexual differences do not matter. If I expect different treatment, then I am going to be viewed as different… and that isn’t always good. I’m nowhere near a feminist, nor am I the “nice girl” trying to pay for everything. Paying for a meal or a movie does not make me feel less feminine. Who spends the money should not cause a difference in the way I view myself as a feminine sexual being.

  24.  #24Mercedes on July 17, 2009 at 11:14 am

    I have to post here because I have some questions for Rori about this teaching.

    I’ll start off by saying I’m pretty spoiled by my man. He always pays for dinner and drinks and always makes the plans when we go out. He treats me very, VERY well and I’m lucky that way. But…a couple of things I have questions about:

    1. When he and I first started dating, we were long distance (more than a 1,000 miles apart). When we wanted to see each other, there were always plane tickets involved. We worked it so each of us would purchase our own tickets and I would set up and pay for the hotel. He provided all entertainment while we were there. If one of us was going to see the other in their hometown, the one buying the ticket (the person traveling) had no expenses while we were together. We did not count pennies to make sure we were “equal” but at the same time, one person did not finance the trips. So…I guess we weren’t “equal” but there was a “balance”. Is this wrong based on what you are teaching? I’m thinking we wouldn’t have lasted very long if he had to pay that much to see me everytime we got together (we did this for over two years)…and then, because of money, I would be missing out on the love of my life.

    (But then…keep in mind, my boyfriend loves independent women).

    2. What if you found this great restaurant (romantic) and you wanted to go? Do you wait until he finds the restaurant and suggests you go so that you’re not doing any planning? Do you ask him to take you and then he pays? What if it’s a very expensive restaurant and he can’t afford it? Do you give up places you want to go because your guy can’t take you there? What if you can afford to take him but he can’t afford to take you? Do you go alone (even though the setting is romantic) because he can’t afford it? Do you dump the man you love and find one who can afford your tastes?

    Your post talks a lot about going places and doing things that don’t costs a lot (and I like that too…I love doing things that cost nothing because of the quality time we get together), but what about the situation when it DOES cost a lot (such as fancy dinners or the theater or plane tickets)? Is it wrong for us to help out with that? Do we give up what we want if a man can’t afford it? Do we need to make sure we find only men who can afford it? Do we go alone if they can’t?

    3. One thing I know for sure when it comes to my boyfriend and I: We will be having dinner together every night. What I don’t know is if he plans to take me out or if we’re staying in. So the other night, I was in the grocery store and I sent a text: “I’m at the store. How bout I buy the steaks and you grill them?” He agreed. I picked up steaks, sides and wine and we cooked together (he grilled and I did the sides)…we opened a bottle of wine and had a romantic dinner. Should I not have sent that text? Should he have paid for dinner regardless of what we were doing and where we were going?

    I guess I’m confused. Like I said, he pays for so much and I feel very grateful and appreciative of everything he does for me, but I’m curious about those things I do for him. I won’t stop doing what I do because I know we work so well together but…what if we somehow lost each other and I was back out in the dating world? Are there not men out there who would appreciate someone like me who loves to be “treated” but doesn’t expect it or require it because I am a woman? And couldn’t that woman (me) still get romance? Or are guys like mine so few and far between that I should feel even luckier that I found him?

    I feel like I do a pretty good job of balancing the love, friendship, respect and goddess-like treatment I get from a man.

    You say: “When you are in boy energy – you get stuff done. You are smart and clever. And you do not inspire romance. Respect, maybe. Friendship for sure. Even awe. But not romance.”

    But I guess my question is, how do you get ALL of that (which is what I want from a man) without leaning forward? I get all of that from my man….but sometimes, that means I lean forward a little bit and sometimes it means I pay.

    Maybe I just feel a lot of gray area here that wasn’t addressed and because I am still on my journey and still learning and growing, I’d like to hear what you teach about that area that isn’t free or even cheap.

    Much Love,

  25.  #25Aldonza on July 17, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    When I’ve encountered men who insisted on dutch, or I offered to split and they took it, the energy was *very* different from the men who were given the space to set the tone and pay for the evening.

    And yet, my longest relationships were with men where there was a lot more parity in who paid for what.

  26.  #26Jonathan on July 17, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    This is fundamentally a pre-feminist solution for a post-feminist world.

    Wait, is that too much in my head? Let me tell you what I feel. 😉

    I feel I want to be appreciated for my warmth and juiciness every bit as much as my brain power. I want the polarity of masculine-feminine energies, and all the excitement that that dance provides. But I also want the equality and more holistic understanding of the relationship between sex and gender identity that have been hard-won by feminism.

    An unfortunate side-effect of feminism was a widespread sort of boring, slushy androgyny. Homogeneity instead of polarized equality.

    But it is possible to find that polarized equality, for two people of ANY combination of genders to celebrate and inflame the masculine AND feminine energies of their counterpart.

    This has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with two people who are “whole and self-sustaining” fully appreciating the wholeness of one another.

    Why then do you bring this pre-feminist view of man as the giver and woman as the receiver? Why must it be about money? Why two halves instead of two delicious wholes?

    What I crave is a woman who shares with me the notion that it is only in giving that we truly receive. Call one energy the “provider” and the other the “nurturer” if you must, but both are acts of giving. If both are self-sustaining, then neither will “expect” anything. They offer, they invite, they give….but they do not expect, and they do not need.

    I don’t need to feel “like a man”, I just want to feel whole. To feel wholly myself.

    We could join hands and stand in place, man and woman, masculine and feminine, pulling against each other, and that IS a kind of connection, a kind of tension.

    But a more exciting connection, a more dynamic tension, comes from joining hands and circling around one another, constantly moving outward from the circle we create but pulled toward one another by the opposing force of our movement. I pass through your “place” on the floor, and you pass through mine, and we just keep spinning in delight.

    Give me that dance, please, if there are any partners left who know the steps.


  27.  #27dan_brodribb on July 17, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    I share a lot of Mercedes thoughts, especially regarding an ongoing relationship. In my case, we don’t live together, but we do spend time at each other’s houses. We also have completely different eating habits. So who pays for groceries?

    As for dating, especially the first few dates, I don’t know.

    I don’t have a problem paying. I’m also okay with paying for my stuff and she pays for yours. I feel uncomfortable when the woman pays for everything.

    I often take my cue from the woman or how I’m feeling. If she seems awkward or uncomfortable about me paying OR if I’m getting a ‘take-care-of-me’ vibe (I don’t feel attracted to or compatible with women who need me to do everything for them), I will pay the bill and ask her to cover the tip. Often that answers a lot of questions for me.


  28.  #28Mercedes on July 17, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    Dan: My boyfriend and I don’t live together either (my independence won’t let me give up my apartment) but we do see each other every evening and we do share a meal every evening (unless one of us is traveling)…and we always meet at his place (if we eat out, we leave there together and if we eat in, we eat at his place – never my place) so…yeah…who pays for groceries? For us, it’s whoever is at the store or whoever has the time to stop.

    What works for us may not work for all, but I’m curious about Rori’s teachings for the above situations.

    I’m also curious though…from a man’s perspective…how do you feel about her treating you to a night out at a fancy restaurant or a weekend away in a hotel in some distant city? Would you feel intimidated by that? Would you be able to allow her to pay? Would you see her differently? Would the time still be romantic in your eyes? (This, of course, is with a woman who isn’t uncomfortable with it at all).

    I guess I see it making me (and most, if not all of the women here) uncomfortable if I paid for everything all the time. I see that maybe, from a guys perspective (especially if you’ve been dating for even a few months) that as much as I don’t want a “boy toy” to treat to fancy dinners all the time (even though he gets cleaned up for me and looks all sexy and I get some when we get home), he doesn’t want a woman who needs him to foot the bill for every dinner (even though she brings a wonderful personality and a sexy goddess-like attitude to the table – and maybe even some cleavage…). Again, my boyfriend does pay most of the time (like 90% of the time and I love that – but I don’t take it for granted or feel like I’m entitled to it. Basically, he can afford it more than I can) but I’m wondering just how counter-productive it can be when we, as women, do the treating.

    Much Love,

  29.  #29Simply Shannon on July 17, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    Mercedes: Hi lady! Maybe it’s just a matter of trusting our feelings? If I feel good about paying, then it’s fine. If I feel bad or awkward about it, then I don’t offer. Plane tickets, cab fare, the tip, whatever. This is once we’ve been dating for awhile. Before that, I don’t feel sexy and confident if I’m paying/pursuing. Hopefully Rori will come along soon and respond to your post with answers.

  30.  #30Rori Raye on July 17, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Jonathan, welcome – and why the hell are you guys fighting this so hard? You want a great relationship with a great woman – but I don’t hear you even willing to EXPERIMENT with this. With doing the traditional thing at least for a few times – demonstrating your masculine side with asterisks before she gets to know the real you – sort of “setting the stage.” If you are “all that” – then surely you can TALK about all this later on with her? Trying to talk about it up front is crazy. I don’t know you – how do I know you’re not just a poor, ungenerous, ideologue when I meet you? Conventions are there for a reason. Try it…and report back instead of just railing against it. I know you’ve done it before – but try it with a new twist. Rori

  31.  #31Mercedes on July 17, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Jonathan: When you said “Why two halves instead of two delicious wholes?” I almost fell off my chair!

    When someone asks my boyfriend “Where’s your other (or better) half?” he’ll say “Oh no. She’s whole without me. She just lets me come along for the ride.”

    To me, that is the biggest compliment. I cherish him for words just like those…

    Much Love,

  32.  #32Mercedes on July 17, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Grrrr…and I also meant to say:

    And Shannon: Thanks girl! I hope she does too!! And I agree, it’s about comfort and how you (and he) feel about it.

    Much Love,

  33.  #33Jonathan on July 17, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Rori, I can’t speak for the other guys in “you guys”, only for myself. I’m not sure why we would be lumped together, anyway, when we are here offering individual perspectives.

    I’ve already experimented with your approach, and with many others. I’m 35, and I’ve grown enough relationships from enough different seeds to know that what satisfies me most is one in which both parties are steeped in the sort of generosity that enables each of them to be wholly themselves.

    Consequently, I find your suggestion “demonstrating your masculine side with asterisks before she gets to know the real you” counterproductive. The real, complete me shows up to every date, even the first. What you see is what you get. The yin and the yang. The masculine and the feminine. ALL of me. I want each of us to see as much of the wholeness of the other as possible.

    I do pay for most of my dates, but that is the most meaningless demonstration of my generosity I have to offer. My real generosity is in my desire to PROVIDE a space for the woman to be utterly herself. Masculine and feminine. Yin and yang. It’s in how my curiosity is animated by her unique humanity, how the specific nuances of her individual being excite me more than the generic outer trappings of convention.

    “How do I know you’re not just a poor, ungenerous, ideologue when I meet you?”

    I’d say I am challenging more than I am fighting, but since you chose the word “fighting” let’s roll with it. This sentence is precisely what I am fighting. You don’t know, but if you arrive with that kind of negative assumption you will never manage to see my generosity, whether I pay for dinner or not. Will you be seeing *me*, or merely ticking a gender-role check-box? You still won’t know what I am, only that I am not what you assumed.

    Imagine arriving for the same date with only positive assumptions. Imagine the gradual discovery of that other person as the unique work of living art they are, feeling the actual shape of the sculpture instead of defining it by all the empty air around it.

    “Notice how I said what I “don’t want” instead of trying to lay out what I DO want?”

    What I seek now, avidly, is a woman who frames her polarity with me in positive expectations. A woman who says what she DOES want. A woman who embodies precisely what she wishes to receive in her own giving. She asks for generosity by being generous, not by expecting it to be there. She asks for love by being loving, for respect by being respectful.

    It is that very lack of expectation that bestows on me the freedom to find delight in giving.

    It’s not the paying that I fight, it’s the expectation. And it’s the shackles of gender roles that are due for another modernization. I look forward to the 21st century being less about gender roles, and more about the polarity of liberated individuals who actively seek a tension that does not require conventions to be created.

    We all carry the fire of creation within us, if we would only learn to use it.

  34.  #34Robin on July 17, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    Ok this feels much more an appropriate post for this comment about mens tepping up, and how you let them be the man…
    I feel icky about the men in my rotation, esp. the one that I happen to like the most, live outa town, and it just doesnt feel like he can step up, it just feels like something’s holding him ack, and whatever that is, its his stuff, not my business..

    But I felt really triggered by him b/c I dont hear from him for 5 days and then I get a txt with a ‘?’ thats it…

    So I told him it felt good to hear from him..and then he says “you forgot my bday, no call, card, wish or song, and I drove all the way to see you? Twice!”

    So I tell him I apologize I didnt know, and wished him happy its back to no contact, and yet he keeps complaining that I wont initiate anything with him…and Im pretty sure I mentioned already to him that I dont feel comfortable initiating or chasing…

    was that not clear enough, gentlemen on this blog??

    Oh I forgot, he did send an email, I replied, feeling mgs, and 6 days later he replies, I see you’re finally chking email…

    Well I had the same feeling about him..this feels like way too much effort, dude Im not a man, so I dont want to BE the man, I feel frustrated and irritated that he wants me to be more proactive..he keeps saying I need to meet him in the middle….

    What do you gentlemen on this blog think?

    I’m not trying to be a bitch about it, I would love some feedback…

  35.  #35Simply Shannon on July 17, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    Jonathan: Wow. I love the energy. Really. Intriguing to say the least. You are right. We are both masculine and feminine. Lovely and delicious parts of who we are individually. It’s not you Tarzan, me Jane. But to have two pieces that fit – Yin/Yang – we have to complement each other…not step all over each other. I LOVE being a girl. And I LOVE men who love being with a girl. It is absolutely not about the money (although we keep talking about it don’t we?). Women do give…almost to the point of exhaustion. We give and give and give. Which is why Rori’s teaching is so important. For many of us, we aren’t circling around each other. We’re standing there watching everyone else dance while we make sure everyone has drinks and food and blah, blah, blah. 🙂

    But at the end of the day, it all begins with the first step. Do you want to lead, or do you want me to lead? The thing is I don’t feel sexy and desired when I lead. I don’t feel all that juiciness and lushness that I feel when a man puts his arms around me and says softly “here we go”. Do you want me to feel that way or not? I am all about the twirl, and I can shake a tail feather with the best of them, but NOTHING turns me on like a man who knows the steps and wants me along with him when he goes. That is sheer magic for me.

    And to repeat what I said earlier since the boys seem to be joining in:

    “Maybe trying the dating thing a different way wouldn’t be so bad, would it? What do you think? What would it hurt to try paying for every single date for a solid month…just to see what happens. Sort of a “month long trial”? A challenge to see what you can learn about yourself and how creative you can be with dates so that your wallet can handle it? I would LOVE to hear how all about it.”

    I really would love to hear how that might go and the reactions that you see from women when you give freely without expectation just “because”. Who’s up for a challenge?

    Mercedes: Smooches girl! Right back at ya!

    Rori: I LOVE the fierceness. Teach us please. I feel so courageous and beautiful today. So much more so than I ever have. I cannot express enough gratitude to you for the changes you have made possible in me.

    Off to experience the magic! I hope everyone has an amazing night! Shannon

  36.  #36Daria on July 17, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    I feel annoyed.

    I want a man who is in love with me. I want a man who wants to give me EVERYTHING. I want him to look at me and see… oh… no… this is not my equal. This is much much much more. She is my Goddess. She is the one. I want to do everything i can to please her, everything for her to be happy, for her to be protected, and smile and have a wonderful life. I want to think of stuff that she doesn’t even know she wants that I can give to her, to see the surprise and amazement on her face. I want to do all this, and taking her to dinner is just the beginning.

    Thank you.

  37.  #37Daria on July 17, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Robin… I’m certainly not a gentleman. But. Um… I would so back off …. this feels like annoying boy energy man games…

    of course you didnt know his birthday, so I feel apology not needed. HE is basically joking with that one, and tryng to pull energy toward him

    doing the Whiny Man

    I would not respond by giving energy to whiny man. In the beginning of learnig my boundaries I would just ignore whiny man, now I would say… this feels annoying… i feel glad to hear from you though… hehe

  38.  #38Jody on July 17, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    I want to be a man’s goddess, but I also would like him to be my king. I get living my true feminine self, and a man is a man, but if I’m not giving, or doing something, it usually means I’m not interested at all. I’m torn on this one. I’ve been completely leaning back lately and I’m not getting the response I desire, What I’m getting is no response, I’m not throwing in the towel yet, but I am discouraged. Its Friday, and I’m home alone, and it feels lonely, rejected and sad, it feels plan awful. These are feelings I find hard to love.

    Terrance, I hope you return, I really enjoyed your perspective.


  39.  #39Daria on July 17, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    I’ve been in love before, and what I saw then with my beauty eye is a man that was my king, prophet, leader and hero. I want to embrace all this in a man as he embraces my Goddessness. I can be a very fierce warrior Goddess and can equal any man and destroy many. I do not want to destroy my man. I’ve now learned that the way to do that is not to look for the man who can actually defeat me (bad boy?) and instead to refrain from engaging in combat the men that want to please me. It’s been feeling good and opening up a new face of the Goddess in me… sexual… luscious… bitchy… mischievous… entitled… huffy just because… pouty… self involved… and full of fun, excitement and romance.

    Going to go spend time with a man who has no car but who invited me to come see him at the right time for me.. right now… because I want something new to do.

    Haven’t heard from this man in 2 years but was thinking about him a few days ago when i saw him in my phonebook… he was handsome… oh here he is… he’s back at my doorstep wanting to see me


  40.  #40Ann on July 17, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Whoa boy the word equal is triggering me big time. The way I see it, it’s still a man’s world. Men still get paid more in the workplace. Men are still perceived as more valueable in the workplace/world. Women are still a minority even in the place they’ve came the furthest-work.

    Equal hummm when was the last time anyone saw a man carry a child for half the pregnancy or do half the birth?

    When was the last time anyone saw a man sat and cry his eyes out in the presence of his guy friends because a women had broke his heart? I’m not saying men don’t get hurt I’m saying we don’t act the same(equal mean same).

    Men and women are different besides just physical differences. One is just as good as the other but we’re not equal. What I mean by that is we don’t see things the same. We don’t react the same. We don’t need the exact same things.

    Personally, I’m different than a guy. I want a man to adore me, to want to give to me and I don’t mean DAMN money. I want a man to take care of me when I need it, again I don’t mean money.

    I’m not trying to offend anyone but this is a touchy subject for me. Because I feel alot of men want women to do the giving, first and foremost. And even here on this blog where we are trying to better ourselves, be more feminine in a way men will appreciate and be able to hear us, it feels like some of the men are saying we’re still not doing it right or good enough.

    I feel I want a man perspective. I want to know how to speak in a way a man can hear. But I want guidance, I don’t want a man telling me you’re still not good enough.

  41.  #41Ann on July 17, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    Shannon I forget to say I’d love for a guy to take you up on the one month challenge then let us know how it went.

  42.  #42Justin on July 17, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    Ann: That is an interesting perspective, and for the most part I agree with you. Men and women are indeed mentally and emotionally different. However, it’s important that we have equal respect between the sexes.

    Honestly, I feel no respect for men coming from Daria’s original post, though I agree with her advice to Robin. Robin, I’m sure you’re a beautiful person, and you don’t deserve the heartache that man in your life is causing you.

    I feel like hard and fast rules like “Guys should always pay, without exception” create boxes that may or may not be good for us. It’s up to both members of a partnership to determine what works for them.

    Also, I think most men, at their core, and once they learn how, absolutely ADORE making their women feel like absolute goddesses. However, if he buys a woman dinner all the time, and goes broke doing it to follow a rule, and gives up taking care of himself to take care of you, doesn’t that turn you off? Would you want to spend time with someone that puts you on a pedestal and neglects himself in the process?

    I also find myself enjoying what Jonathan wrote about circling around in each other’s places. Sometimes it’s fun to be thrown against a bed and let my woman wear the pants. It’s not something I’d want all the time, but being comfortable in both masculine and feminine polarities make us more whole, and dancing between them can be fun, and even allow for a greater understanding between us.

  43.  #43tinque on July 17, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Ann – I’m so in agreement with you. Men and women cannot be equal. It’s impossible on all levels except maybe spiritually, but then again how can one measure that. We are different and we have our strengths and weaknesses. Of course we are all unique, but generalizations can be made. Women do tend to be better at the “feeling” stuff and men do tend to be better at the “doing stuff. It’s not to say either one can only do well in one area. There is certainly crossover.
    In my relationship we give in the areas where we give best. There is no tally, not ever.
    Mercedes – I hear your inner struggle. It seems to me that things are different when a couple has been together for a long time whether they live together or separately. For example, it’s okay to call when the mood strikes you as long as it’s coming from a pure place and not you being needy and seeking reassurance. A natural flow just seems to evolve between you both. As I said above, you and he give each other where you give best and if you are fairly similar in gving styles, then it seems to me a natural flow would develop in another way, more as in convenience though that’s not the right word, eg. when you were in the market and bought steaks, or maybe as a back and forth kind of thing is a little bit better way to say this, but again there is no record being kept. You give when you want to which is a gift for you too and vice versa.

  44.  #44Jmarie on July 17, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    I know this is probably not the place to post/ask this, but I can’t figure out where to post! I have followed all the posts, f/up, comments for a while now and Rori’s advice. But the thing is…trying to do the circular dating, the feminine energy, letting the men row, not doing…nothing…just BEING…the smiling, leaning back, opening my heart…and I haven’t been on a date in MONTHS! in fact, it seems as if this new shift in my vibe…has actually resulted in less men, less dates, less focus on me. Sometimes I will go myself..look good, feel good, smile, lean back, unzip my heart, breathe…etc…and not one single man will even notice me! A few times I have met men and done the “feelings” …and nothing…no response, no interest, etc! two men…in the last 3 months…told me my talk about my “feelings”…was very weird..they were turned off by it…never asked for phone number on one, 2nd took but never ever called. Is anyone else having these same problems? I am 55, look 44 and just cannot seem to meet men, now that I am into this new way of being a woman and being a siren. I have no clue where to go to meet men anymore, even the every day, library, grocery store, etc…no response! have tried online dating…was sucessful last year, but now in last 3 months, with new siren/vibe, feminine energy..I have completely flopped with even getting responses, emails, etc…and not one single date out of any of the men! HELP!!!!

  45.  #45Ann on July 17, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    Thank you Justin. I too feel like it’s important that we have equal respect between the sexes.

    I don’t know that Daria was trying to be disrespectful to men in her post to Robin. So how would you in a respectful to men way, tell Robin to react to a man who has treated her this way?

    I feel Rori was saying on dates guys should pay. Are you saying to me that if you asked a female out you’d want her to pay for all or part of the date? I feel a date isn’t a partnership, it’s 2 people having fun with each other.

    You said: ” However, if he buys a woman dinner all the time, and goes broke doing it to follow a rule, and gives up taking care of himself to take care of you, doesn’t that turn you off? Would you want to spend time with someone that puts you on a pedestal and neglects himself in the process?

    Yes, it would turn me off but not because he doesn’t have money now. But because he didn’t take care of his own life. How can I trust a guy to take care of me if he doesn’t take care of his own self?

    I agree sometimes it is fun for a woman to be aggressive in the bedroom, but remember you said sometimes. You wouldn’t want that a equal amount of time would you?

    I feel men and woman will be alot more connected when we each learn how to communicate with the other sex. I feel it’s in women’s best interest to learn how men think and see things. But it’s just as important for men to learn how women feel and see things. Because if we’re not “hearing” what the other party is saying noone gets heard.

    Let me give a example and you tell me how far off I am from your(a man’s perspective). A wife keeps asking her husband to mow the yard. Finally, a week later he does, he then comes in and says “yard is mowed you want to fool around now?” The man sees it as he did what his wife asked him to and he’s horny now. The wife sees it as she’s been asking for over a week, now he does it when he’s good and ready and expects her to ready on the spot to jump in the sack. I can say this much it wouldn’t happen here. lol

    Men are logical women are emotional(feeling) if we don’t figure out how to embrace those differences we’re not going to get far.

    I feel very appreciative of your sharing Justin. I felt what you said was share in a trying to communicate non-judgemental way. Thank you.

  46.  #46Ann on July 17, 2009 at 6:08 pm

    Tinque I think we were posting at the same time. I’m so in agreement with you. The men and women being equal is one of those things that sets me off. I feel it’s because I know we’re not equal, we’re not the same. I feel each sex is unique, with some simiarilities. And learning how to communicate, love and appreciate each other is very important.

  47.  #47Erika on July 17, 2009 at 6:52 pm

    I feel so turned off by most of the guys’ comments.

    I feel utterly unattracted to men who are not chivalrous, especially when they argue with me about it after I’ve said that it’s a core emotional attraction thing for me.

    I feel bored by this conversation at this point. I feel like not engaging in it anymore.

    I date men who are willing to be men. They help me with technology stuff and marketing stuff, they are willing to pay on dates even if they make less money than me, and they treat me like a woman.

    When that is happening, I feel delight in the polarity.

    Enough said.

  48.  #48Erika on July 17, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    A man like Jason seems to want the woman to “perform.” And conform, I might add. I recommend he read Pat Allen’s book Getting to I Do.

  49.  #49Erika on July 17, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    Also, Jason … it’s impossible to manipulate a woman who’s in her body rather than her head. A feminine energy woman who’s in her body has a “gut feeling” that she doesn’t want to pay. At least that’s my experience. If she goes against her gut feeling, she feels regret.

  50.  #50valmont on July 17, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    What is this whole deal with the american wining and dining and movies thing? if you guys lived in europe and special in scandinavian countries (or holland or germany) where women make as much money as the man, the check is always split or sometimes you pay and sometimes she pays (reciprocity). It’s never the man’s job to always pick the tab, a swedish women will feel offended if the guy tries to always pay because then she will feel like she “ows” him something. also when you say you want to feel traditionally, well then dating multiple men and not helping around the house doesn’t sound too traditional to me.

    giving something for free FROM TIME TO TIME is “nice” but saying “I want a man who always gives for the sake of giving” is not real, no one gives all the time for the sake of giving, even mother theresa…I would hate to feel “obligated” or “indebt” to someone just because he was nice to me.

    yeh sure if it’s a cheap date I’ll pay but from my experience, money does not make a women’s pussy wet. women want men who are sexy, handsome, confident, fun and who have strong boundaries (can say no to her and challenge her). at least that’s what the women in Europe (my main demographic) seem to want. I met many American men who seem to prefer dating european women (french, eastern european etc…)


  51.  #51heartbeat on July 17, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    I feel turned on by what Jonathan wrote.

    I trust my feelings around this money issue. I’ve had men pay and felt yuck, I’ve had men pay and felt cherished. I’ve had men split/share the bill and felt fine, I’ve had men split the bill and felt turned off.

    Heck that’s a lotta men hehe!

    My mother, who is a stunning sexy 73 year old, does the total opposite to what Rori says and men are practically breaking her door down. She insists on paying her way when she first meets a man. “I will let no man buy me” she says. When she decides to let a man pay, he knows he’s ‘on’, she is willing to be open to him, it’s her signal.

    My feelings guide me on this, but I’ve also worked on AWARENESS of my own motives in sharing cost, eg if it;s coming from a not-good place I remember my lessons about learning to receive.

    Giving and receiving from the heart.

  52.  #52heartbeat on July 18, 2009 at 1:11 am

    Ok so I’ve been exploring the various viewpoints and come up with the following for me to reflect on.

    I’ve known three men who ‘kept tally’ even though they earned twice as much as I do, and that felt a real turn-off. I felt resentful and started judging them as mean. And I thought ‘this man is not in touch with his sexuality’.

    I used to feel uncomfortable if a man paid on dates, but I’ve learned to receive and feel appreciation, which I’ll express. I take my cue from the man, I get a vibe he wants to take charge or not. I’ll get a vibe if it’s appropriate to offer to pay a share for costs or for dessert, coffee or the tip.

    I’ve also had dates where we’ve split the bill spontaneously, no-one’s keeping tally, and that’s felt good and fun and sexy. As though there’s a deeper sharing. I like that.

    Personally, I like walks in the city or country. I’d rather swim naked in the sea and share the cost of a picnic than go for an expensive meal. Perhaps not naked on a first date lol.

  53.  #53heartbeat on July 18, 2009 at 1:18 am

    So it’s not about money for me. It’s about how connected I feel to the man and to myself when I’m with him.

    The money issue is just an outer manifestation of a deeper experience. A man might spend a lot of money but no cigar if I feel he wants to control me.

    Receiving, giving, sharing. Do I want to have this dance or not?

    I have no aspirations to be a goddess, I’m too attached to my full-blooded womanliness.

  54.  #54Tina on July 18, 2009 at 1:55 am

    I feel funny and I’m smiling at popcorn and sandwiches. I feel that somehow this all feels so natural. I feel funny and I’m smiling at all the men out there protesting at not getting any more roast turkey dinners and blow jobs. Hey stick around for popcorn!. A man cannot feel romance on his own, maybe some microwave popcorn on my front porch will trigger feelings for romance , maybe not, it’s worth a try. Oh, right I’m jumping the gun, no popcorn until we are engaged.
    I used to feel (still do at times) I never chased men because my low self esteem never allowed it. I now feel really confident and oh I dont know this feeling I am experiancing but I feel all smily and happy to learn that I WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO LOL!.

  55.  #55Tina on July 18, 2009 at 2:19 am

    I’m going out in public again for the next two days, this will be a very interesting weekend for me. I just love learning all this new stuff. The “pit” really helped me a lot since breaking the news to the man I’ve been giving myself freely to for the last 1 1/2 years. He did call but left no message, I immediately started to feel alone and insecure, I started to cry but that felt like to much work lol. I thanked him again during my “pit imagery”. I feel more in control of my life and I feel happy can content being alone and enjoying my own company. I didnt realize I knew so many people and that they enjoy my company as well lol. I feel unsure about what to say to him after not seeing or calling him for a week, I know he will show up somewhere in my travels this weekend. Any ideas , thoughts Daria your always good at this HELP!

  56.  #56Tina on July 18, 2009 at 2:37 am

    I will feel uncomfortable, I know that. Anxiety and fear will most likely want to take over. I will feel my energy going towards him , pulling me towards him. Do I just love my feelings and do nothing? I suppose.

  57.  #57Daria on July 18, 2009 at 3:51 am

    hi… I feel cool that you asked me for help hehe… this reminds me of either a post or an e-letter Rori had about a woman who saw her guy in the grocery store after awhile (in this case with another woman)… Rori said to go straight into feeling as in… oh… i feel so weird seeing you here… i missed you… this feels uncomfortable…

    hmm… ok… in your situation lets see you run into him… I would smile at him but do not move or step in his direction let him come to you… smile at him and make eyecontact for the full 5 seconds or as much as you can, then turn away… and do what you were doing…

    he probably will come over… then YOU LET HIM SPEAK…

    he’ll probably say hi…

    you say hi… I feel weird

    he says… oh… or why

    you say… I’m feeling insecure and vulnerable… and I’m feeling angry at you..

    he says wow this is a public market and I think im falling in love with you

    you say… I know and it feels good to hear you say that

    he says… I miss you

    you say… thank you… Im feeling kinda hot… wheres the water… lol jk

    ok what do you think?

  58.  #58Daria on July 18, 2009 at 3:53 am

    Sometimes I suppose I can come off disrespectful to men… what can I say… Ima jerk. Call me jerk one more time!

    Jerk jerk jerk!


    just kidding guys…

    ps Justin I feel kinda bad that you thought my comment was disrespectful and now I feel like being mean to you.

  59.  #59Tina on July 18, 2009 at 4:28 am

    Thank you , Daria

    I just love the way you can see a situation coming lol. I let my feelings of anxiety and fear dictate how I react and that usually well never goes well. It’s impulse that dictates how I will react. He is calling me but not leaving messages on my phone. I will see him in my travels this weekend, this I am sure. My usual reaction is not to accknowledge his presence ugh!

  60.  #60Tina on July 18, 2009 at 4:47 am

    ok kinda like this will be the first time seeing him EVER. Ok, I see. Every one here is very supportive. Daria at first glance would seem kinda off doing all her riffing and stuff but then she just comes up with all this great stuff lol. I admire her self assurance. I still get caught up in his reaction and will tend to let them run the show and control events and outcomes and feel miserable afterwards, kicking myself and out comes my “friendly stranger” with his bat in hand , I see him coming a long way off, muttering to himself and whining, throwing himself on the ground , dragging the bat along (poor thing the bat is way to big for him to carry).

  61.  #61Jonathan on July 18, 2009 at 8:45 am

    Mercedes – Thank you for appreciating that statement, and I’m glad you didn’t actually fall off your chair. 🙂

    Shannon – Thank you for meeting my post so directly with your own reactions to the metaphor. I’ll soon respond in kind with a more detailed explanation when I have the time to do so, but for now I’d like to simply thank you for listening so well.

    heartbeat – I feel like you get what I am aiming at. Yes! It’s about connection, not money. I like that you show up to a date, make yourself present in that moment, and check in with your feelings right then and there. You’re not deciding beforehand what your emotional needs are and carving them into stone, you’re showing up to the present and letting the shared connection guide your actions.

    And I like this a lot: “I have no aspirations to be a goddess, I’m too attached to my full-blooded womanliness.” A woman who walks proudly with her feet on the ground is a woman utterly content to be who she is, and that is deeply attractive.

  62.  #62Rori Raye on July 18, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Andrew – how bout this – you ask a girl out – you arrange the date and pay. If you know her and have agreed to “hang out” – then you talk about it all beforehand. How’s that?

  63.  #63dan_brodribb on July 18, 2009 at 10:17 am

    I enjoy your posts, Mercedes. They feel very grounded.

    To answer your question about women taking me on lavish dates, when that happens, I feel a combination of flattered and emasculated. But how much of each depends a lot on context.

    I feel mistrustful of posts–by males or females– that feel like they are about the poster ‘being right,’ advancing an agenda, or trying to score rhetorical points with the judges. It doesn’t seem like a great recipe for happiness to me and it’s hard to know whether or not they are being genuine or manipulating people’s emotions for their own ends.

  64.  #64Rori Raye on July 18, 2009 at 10:18 am

    DRC – totally brilliant. My favorite reality show is the “Cougar” – she was amazing, and the men were totally great. And the financial arrangement is as you state it. I actually encourage women to allow this kind of relationship. And yet – At the beginning – he HAS to make the first move, he has to invite you out, he has to pay for the hot dogs…otherwise the thing gets skewed. Everything else is negotiable. Rori

  65.  #65Rori Raye on July 18, 2009 at 10:20 am

    You got it…the whole thing here is about developing confidence and self-esteem. That takes practice. that’s why you guys aren’t getting this. This is an inside job. And for a woman who is using “giving” as a way to keep her emotions from being felt (most of us women) – there has to be a procedure for shifting that. And you have to be bold when you’re making huge changes. Trust me – the kind of woman you’ll get in exchange for paying a few times and then TALKING about how it works for you…if you really LIKE her – is way more than trying to do it all your way. That’s just ideology. Rori

  66.  #66Erika on July 18, 2009 at 10:27 am

    oh FFS,

    Guys, you don’t get “respect” by splitting the bill. If a man insists on splitting the bill, I will pay my share and then never again see him romantically. All attraction gone … POOF.

    You get respect from a woman by how you live your life and by how you communicate.

  67.  #67lisahottietotrot on July 18, 2009 at 10:42 am

    If you’re shallow, obese, or merely looking for a quick fuck, I am N-O-T for you. Looking for friends whose company
    can be enjoyed in any setting, including, but not limited to, the bedroom.


  68.  #68Nelia on July 18, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Wow. This is a great discussion. And I think all perspectives have valid points.

    Personally, I want to be with a man with the desire and capacity to provide for me and his future family (and luckily, I am). It doesn’t mean that I lack my own capacity to provide or that I rely upon his capacity. But for me, it is a characteristic I value.

  69.  #69Justin on July 18, 2009 at 11:34 am

    To Daria: I didn’t mean to make you feel attacked, I simply wanted to point out how I felt after reading your comment starting with “I feel annoyed” and post about that. Your advice to other women I pretty much totally agree with, and it’s clear that you’re a wonderful woman. 🙂

    To Erika: As I previously mentioned, if I invite a woman to something, I plan on paying and taking care of what transpires with simply her taking my hand and allowing me to lead. Occasionally though, that simply can’t happen. I may be hitting a rough spot financially, or whatever, and I’d never allow that to stop me from meeting a potential mate. I’d try to keep the dates cheap/free, but if she wants me to pay for things that I can’t, I’d sooner be honest and let her know and go from there than just not allow her to enjoy my company and I hers.

    I really think these hard and fast rules that both sexes have should be viewed as guidelines, like ye old Pirate Code. Feeling it out and finding what works for you is far better than taking someone’s advice blindly. I promise, even if I can’t take someone on a fancy dinner date, I can still make a women feel like an absolute queen, no matter what the status of my bank account. It would be a shame if she missed that because I told her, “I’d love to take you out to that fancy restaurant you mentioned, but I’m really strapped for cash. If you could help out, I think we could swing it,” and she wanted to follow someone’s rule instead of her heart.

    There’s even a woman in my life who I have a long distance relationship with. She actually usually ends up buying the plane tickets, because she’s better off than I am, but that doesn’t detract in any way from the emotional intimacy or connection we have.

    I’m starting to think this may all just be much ado about nothing.

  70.  #70Daria on July 18, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    OMG Justin. You thought my post (other than the I feel annoyed part) about being a Goddess to my man shows no respect to men?

    Gosh I feel weird and bad! That is one of my deepest fantasies..!!!

    I feel really not gotten here… my post about being a Goddess? Thank you universe for the men who want and are able to make me their Goddess.

    And Justin I still feel mad. Thanks for saying something about not wanting to attack me… and for me being a wonderful woman that felt nice.

    I feel curious about your reaction if you were to reread the post as an expression of desire for true celestial love…

    Can you imagine a woman being your Goddess? Imagine being in love with a woman to where the air around her seems to glow, and she seems to move slowly and surrounded by beautiful intoxicating smells… to where you know she is so wonderful because of the way she smells, she looks , she is divine! That is what I want my man to see me as… and actually thats how I see myself

  71.  #71Justin on July 18, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Actually Daria, I love making women feel like goddesses around me. (not just my lovers, all women are beautiful in all their own ways) The only reason I felt no respect is that I didn’t get the strong sense that you would make your man eel like a god or a king. If there’s that reciprocity, mutual respect, desire, love, and longing for each other, then I’m in total agreement and I see that as a relationship I’d want to be a part of, or at least near.

    It was simply the lack of comment about what you’d want to do with your man should he do that for you that gave me those negative feelings. I have nothing against making a woman feel like an absolute queen. Matter of fact, my grandfather and father both do that with their women, which could explain why they’ve been married for 50+ and 25 years, respectively.

  72.  #72Erika on July 18, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Ann said:

    “Yes, it would turn me off but not because he doesn’t have money now. But because he didn’t take care of his own life. How can I trust a guy to take care of me if he doesn’t take care of his own self?”

    Thank you, my thoughts exactly. A grown-up man needs to have his sh*t together financially, or how can I possibly trust him with other things that are important to me?

    Puh-leeze. I am a grown-up and I date other grown-ups. If the guy is really young and isn’t yet financially established, I can still FEEL when he has his sh*t together. If he has a good solid plan and ambition, if he has a life purpose, I can respect that and I am willing to be more flexible with him on financial issues.

    What if a guy goes broke going on dates? Puh-leeze. I feel exasperated with this discussion. Partly because I know so many men who DO have their sh*t together financially and who don’t whine about any of this…

  73.  #73alias girl on July 18, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    i feel a deep desire that brings tears to my eyes to find my king and treat him as such. i don’t know eactly what that looks like but i am sure he will help teach me as he is my king.

    i feel a deep desire to be adored, loved, protected, sexed, romanced, held in goddess esteem.

    i feel grateful for all the fabulous sirens and kings posting. i feel so opened up. i feel open to experimenting with all this. i like the idea that the man pays and takes care of logistics but that it needn’t be expensive at all. i would feel repulsed by a man who gave to the point of neglecting himmself. i would feel fearful of this kind of self hatred.

    i feel very excited about dating. 🙂 yae.

    i feel so inspired by everyone.

  74.  #74Terrance Thames on July 18, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    Hello Ladies,

    I would have chimed in earlier but I have been really busy this week.

    Wow!!! This conversation is Phenominal!

    Jody- I appreciate the kind words.

    Jonathon-Wow! What a comment! That was a very passionate response and a lot of what you said resonated with me.

    S Shannon- You said: ““Maybe trying the dating thing a different way wouldn’t be so bad, would it? What do you think? What would it hurt to try paying for every single date for a solid month…just to see what happens. Sort of a “month long trial”? A challenge to see what you can learn about yourself and how creative you can be with dates so that your wallet can handle it? I would LOVE to hear how all about it.”

    I have in fact done this experiement for almost 2 months actually from Jan-middle Mar of this year. The dates ranged from dinner and movie to art museums to grocery stores to working out together…etc. I was doing it however for a different reason other than seeing the results of paying for all of my dates. I did pay for 100% of them though. I could give you how many dates I went on, how many women I went on the dates with and what the results were from each one if you would like but it did teach me a lot:

    1. It taught me how to feel out a girl who didn’t respect/appreciate me for taking her out. These women typically would want to go out again but nothing would progress. This is after I felt they were not into me or I was not into them.

    On a side note: I once knew a woman that admitted to me that she would go out literally 4-6 nights a week on dinner dates with the sole purpose of getting a free meal. She wasn’t really interested in these guys at all. All these guys she went out with thought she was interested and she acted entitled to the meal and interested eventhough she wasn’t over and over again until they got the point. She said it usually would take about 2-3 dates before they got the hint. These women do exist and going out with so many on this experiement proved that point even further.

    2. Taught me the investment factor.
    Jimmm said this: “I have literally stopped seeing women (more than one) that expected or act entitled towards being paid for”
    This happened, I believe (I have to check my notes) 5 times out of 32 women! I can’t speak for every guy on here, but for me when I get a vibe from a girl that she is entitled to have me pay ALL the time and I feel NO appreciation, or some sort of investment on her part. I bounce. To me, treating a woman like a goddess is the standard of dating. However, I feel there has to be some sort of communication demonstrating a recipocating of respect/appreciation that can be understood by both parties. Which leads me to this:

    “I find it sexy to have a woman offer to pay for things.”

    I believe I mentioned this on another earlier post. I believe that this might be a first step in bridging the communication gap for this issue. I have not found a better way yet. I know some of the ladies feel that it is not authenic of them to offer because they do not want to pay in the first place, however it is not authenic for me to just keep paying date after date without some feeling of appreciation and investment (which feels very similar to respect).

    All in all a good experiement and I learned a ton about myself and what I look for in a woman. I also learned how to be more creative when picking dates. I believe that a date is just a way to see and form intimate connections with people. It doesn’t matter where you go as long as you are with someone you can connect with.

    So here’s my question to all the beautiful goddesses is

    How do you treat your man like a God?

    for the sake of augument I will add what a woman does to make me feel like a God:

    1. Showing appreciation in a way that I can understand. (I know I am constantly trying to become more aware of women subtley appreciating me but lets be honest, I miss quite a few of those)
    2. Showing Investment in me (could be a variety of things not money related)
    3. Allowing me to lead her in as many ways as possible. I have been findng lately that this appreciation that I feel extends into my network of girl-friends. They even ask me to lead them.

    It seems very obvious that everybody has valid points. It would be great to hear the guys perspectives on what makes them feel like Gods and also for the women to provide how they invest by making their men feel like gods. Maybe we can find some common ground there.

  75.  #75alias girl on July 18, 2009 at 8:09 pm

    terence thames i feel Very interested in what makes a man feel like a god

    i feel interested in more specifics from an individual point of view.

    ie for me
    – i love being called pet names by someone i like.i feel special and loved. i feel adored for some reason by this.
    -i love for a man to hold the car door or open the car door or pull my chair (although yes sometimes i forget i love that and pull it myself which confuses the man. but I like it. i could easily love to get into the habit of that.)
    -i love when a man picks something up for himself and asks me if i’d like something or just brings me something he thinks i’d like anyway. ie he pulled over to buy a soda for himself on the way over and picks up a vitamin water for me and gives it me when he picks me up over visits or whatever. not every time but just something that says oh he was thinking of me.)
    -when a man offers me his jacket because he could tell i was chilly.
    -holding hands.
    -being touched.
    of course flowers, dinners gifts etc but they really aren’t the biggest part for me, more like icing on the cake
    -i know rori mentions in the circular dating program about “being got”. i love when a man “gets” me. he may not agree with me. he may not do things the same as me. but he “gets me” in a good way. he sees the good side of alias girl more than the bad.

    actually i feel kind of challenged to really put my finger on how i feel adored by some men and completely “not got” by others.

    i feel interested to hear from others, both sexes, on what specific actions from the opposite sex ( or opposite energy type if people are gay) induce these feelings.

  76.  #76tinque on July 18, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    “How do you treat your man like a God?”
    By melting every time he hugs me, fondles me, kisses me, loves on me, by worshiping him, especially his peepee though never in a condescending way, by opening my heart to him, ever wider as time goes by, by allowing him to make the big decisions though I am always consulted, by taking care of the little and/or big things eg. cooking him a nice meal or making sure his favorite beer is well stocked and chilled, organizing a big move out of state though it’s not left all to me, by seducing him, by allowing myself to be so relaxed and vulnerable with him that orgasms trip all over themselves. Need I go on?

  77.  #77Terrance Thames on July 18, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    AG- Thanks for your input. Sounds like you answered the question ““How do you treat your woman like a Goddess?” Thats valuable information but not “How do you treat your man like a God?”

    Do you have any examples of that?

    Tinque-Thanks. especially: by worshiping him, especially his peepee though never in a condescending way. (priceless!)

    and: by seducing him, by allowing myself to be so relaxed and vulnerable with him that orgasms trip all over themselves. Need I go on? (Thanks now I need a cold shower :-p)

    Your comment resonates with me very well because I would be able to notice all of what you said. I think my question might have been misinterpreted though. So lets try it again.

    How would you treat a man like a God on the first few dates if you were interested?

  78.  #78alias girl on July 18, 2009 at 9:00 pm

    i feel misunderstood terrance. 🙂 my question for YOU or other gods is what actions by a woman make you feel like a god.

    my examples were how a man’s actions make me feel like a goddess.

    i don’t know the flip side of the equation. i feel interested to know though. i feel interested in ideas about how to help a man feel (I’m using your template below:)

    1) appreciated
    2) invested
    3) like the leader

    tinque I felt good to read what you wrote. i feel excited to contribute to my man’s well being.

  79.  #79Karen on July 18, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    Here is a post I put on Jason’s site. It seems to have struck a nerve there- let me know how you feel about it here.
    Karen said…

    I am also a disciple of Rori’s and I have been learning a lot. I think everyone missed the concept in this blog post that there is a difference between “dating” and “relationship”. In dating, the one who asks the other out should pay- period. Since a Rori disciple would never ask a man out, it follows that she would not pay. This woman would be out living her life, having fun, doing whatever activity makes her feel good and the man comes up to her and asks her out; now it is up to him to impress her. In nature, this is the same as the mating dance performed by a male bird or the violent fight enacted by stallions IN ORDER TO WIN THE FEMALE. Equality does not come into it. Where is equality in a sales pitch? However, in a relationship, equality is not negotiable. If my husband would not mow the lawn or trim the shrubs, I’d damn well not wash his dirty clothes. If he got laid off, I would work overtime to make up the difference until he is employed, but he had better be willing to do the same if I am out of work or on maternity leave. In other words, equality begins when a man has convinced the woman of his choice that he is her equal.
    July 09, 2009

  80.  #80Terrance Thames on July 18, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    AG-Ok I re-read and I got it 🙂 I am going out but I will put more heart into it when I get home

  81.  #81Tracy on July 18, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    Interesting exchange of ideas.I feel that for me i need to learn to allow men take up their responsibility and for me to just learn to receive.I feel that i am in a place where i am learning to receive love/affection/attention from men/the universe.I feel that once i can learn to receive then i will be in a much stronger place inside of me to give from a good place in my heart.
    It feels really interesting to see how just leaning back and receiving and from time to time leaning forward to give but from a good place can actually blend in……I feel that it all depends on how i am feeling at the point in time.
    One of the guyz i am circular dating told me i drive him crazy……i felt amused and deep down i know its because i just let him be the man…..i let him take care of me and he actually enjoys doing it….I let him spend as much as he feels comfortable spending……once in a while i surprise him with a cup of coffee if i am going to get myself one….This feels much better than the old me…

  82.  #82Karen on July 18, 2009 at 9:52 pm

    Terrance, you made a great point! How many times have self-centered, egotistical bitches (obviously NOT Goddesses) used a man for meal tickets and ruined his perspective of women? This is another aspect of Rori’s teaching- the man gives and the woman gives back. If my man buys dinner, I treat him like he’s Brad Pitt. I flaunt him with body language that says “Look at this gorgeous man!” I pay attention to what he says and remember the important points for later. Body language will let you know if a woman is appreciative, right? Would you say that a woman making a statement like “Wow, I feel so great to be here with you. I feel like this has been one of the best dates of my life! Thank you so much.” is showing appreciation?

  83.  #83Karen on July 18, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    One other thing. Jason seems to equate paying for a date with buying sex and that makes me feel sad. I just don’t get how that could be satisfying for either party. I feel that lust (as in the 4 pillars of love) should mutual and if a woman puts out to pay for her date, it’s a lot like masturbating, but with a partner. I feel that a man can stimulate a woman into feeling lust for him without spending his weekly paycheck on dating her. The greatest man I’ve ever dated didn’t wine and dine me to get me in bed, it happened because I was so hot for him my panties caught fire! And all he had to do was make eye contact, focus on me and be himself (at the Waffle House, even).

  84.  #84Simply Shannon on July 18, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    I feel good leaning back. I feel relaxed and comfortable in my own skin. I do understand and value the men’s perspective. I feel appreciative for the opportunity to hear what the men are thinking. I know my giving in the past was not done because I was joyously giving. I was leaning forward (paying, initiating sex, taking care, giving over and over)…all in hopes that by being nice I would win over a man and he would love me. I feel sad thinking about those days. About how much I was giving away of myself and not getting that much in return. Why? Because the men I was attracting were boys disguised as men who were looking for someone to take care of them. I didn’t respect them…and cherishing ME never even occurred to them. I feel tears, but I feel forgiveness and gratitude for where I am today.

    My love was here last night. We laughed and talked and made love (sigh – I still ache for him. 🙂 ) He brought me a gift. Just something he noticed I didn’t have and decided to pick up for me last week. Is this real? The irony is that now I actually believe that I deserve to be treated this way. I feel worthy and cherished. I feel brave for trying my life differently. I feel blessed by the love I’m experiencing.

    Terrance: You ask how I treat my man like a god. I know you want examples. I don’t feel capable of exploring anything in depth tonight, but I’ll throw out a few. I feel excited when I see you and my enthusiasm shows. My face literally lights up when I see you. I feel turned on when we hug and kiss, so much so that I purr. I feel respect for you so I talk about you favorably (to friends and family – mine and yours). I applaud your successes. I feel amazing when you watch me so I wear dresses, heels and my favorite perfume when I can, especially when I’m with you. I don’t snub you when you lean in close to taste me. I flirt with you. I feel passion when you touch me and if we’re exclusive, I invite you inside my body, and I don’t hold back when we make love. Is that what you wanted?

    Sweet dreams.

  85.  #85Terrance Thames on July 18, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    Hi Karen-
    You said: “Body language will let you know if a woman is appreciative, right?”

    I think you are right here. The problem is, a guy who doesn’t understand or hasn’t studied body language is going to have a hard time picking up on that unless it is really obvious. I have studied it and to me I feel like reading body language is kind of like playing black jack. You play the odds and hope you are right and you can’t be afraid to be wrong.

    You said this: “Wow, I feel so great to be here with you. I feel like this has been one of the best dates of my life! Thank you so much.”

    That would be good if it felt like it was coming from genuine place.

    This is very Ironic because the girl I was talking about would say something like that to all of the guys at the end of each date. Thats what would hook them to ask her out again.

    Thats why until guys feel comfortable with their ability to sort out the good ones from the bad we look for more obvious of an investment.

    S. Shannon-
    Thanks for that…and I would love for you to go deeper into it when you are capable. That is exactly what I was looking for. From the examples you just mentioned, is this how you would treat a man like god on a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd date? Or is this something that is after several dates?

  86.  #86Erika on July 18, 2009 at 11:21 pm


    so I notice how I can feel in a man’s vibe if he doesn’t want to pay … and I do step up to contribute …but then I feel no romantic attraction to him.

    I want men to feel as empowered about money as I feel. that when I need it, it will be there.

    if they don’t feel that, how can I respect them? I feel they are not whole.

  87.  #87Daria on July 19, 2009 at 1:26 am

    I feel judged hearing that egotistical bitches use men for a mealticket.

    I think I’ve gone out with men just for the dinner and like I said before I was doing it for their benefit also so they could perhaps learn to attract me or at least benefit from being around me.

    I feel angry at that being judged as an egotistical bitch. wah wah wah

    I feel REALLY indignant about this!

    Ummmm… so what… sorry no I don’t feel attracted to every man who takes me to dinner even if he takes me out 3 or more times and yes I will sometimes be nice and tell them I had fun even if I’m not attracted to them like Terrance’s woman.

    I am practicing with them. They are practicing with me.

    I don’t feel like being judged. I feel like being real.

    I had a hard time allowing men to take me out without ME FEELING LIKE THEY ARE CHUMPS. I have gotten over it now and I feel angry at being judged for it.

    I particularly remember a long time ago when a man paid for my movie tickets and I thought wow what a loser I’m using him for money. I was really a non-dater.

    I still feel like I’m “using” men sometimes when they pay for me. I felt that way tonite when a guy paid for my pizza.

    I feel guilty and it feels weird. I don’t feel this way all the time or with every guy, but sometimes I do feel that way.

    I feel like theres something hiding in there about me not being good enough… and its almost like men of a certain cultures or styles trigger that in me because I think oh no he couldnt possibly really like me… I think it is from triggers from my past…

  88.  #88Daria on July 19, 2009 at 1:48 am

    I feel sad.

  89.  #89Tracy on July 19, 2009 at 3:50 am

    This is completely off topic but i feel like letting it out.
    Whenever i expect a guy i really like to call or text or they promise to get back to me and they don’t i get this really sad feeling going on inside me….
    I am feeling that right now and i have read severally on rori’s email about this but it gets challenging when i experience the feeling…..My thoughts trace back to loneliness and a feeling of abandonment….i feel left out and i have this negative vibe running through my head…..
    Maybe the guy doesn’t care…..maybe they don’t like me anymore,maybe the’ve changed their mind….maybe they were just messing with my head….I feel all these negative thoughts running through my head…..
    I feel glad that i can notice myself feeling negative and alone…I love this dark side of myself….
    Will just take time and process through it….

  90.  #90Tina on July 19, 2009 at 7:28 am

    I walked pass him on my way to the bathroom. He looked small and weak. We were not close enough to say hi. He did call me at midnight and said he was trying to decypher the email I sent him. I said to him I was glad he called, the phone call got stupid and I ended up feeling defensive. I told him I feel defensive and angry and didnt want to continue the conversation, that I was tired from my long day. He brought up my pass relationship, the fact I was married and it didnt work out , I reminded him that he was in a longterm relationship and he decided after 8 years that she wasnt the one. The conversation went like this for awhile. I ended up saying to him finally, I am on the priority list somewhere between you taking a crap and mowing the lawn, I was really angry, he said why are you degrading yourself?. I said I’m not degrading myself, I am left to “figure out” what you mean by the things you say such as “let’s take this relationship, one day at a time” . He mentioned feelings of guilt several times, by the things I said. I feel like I just won a court case rather than winning at love lol. No I want to see you, can I come over, no coffee, no I miss you, just a stupid convo that just went round in circles. I asked him at one point if he thought I was really dumb, I’m not sure why I had to ask.

    I dont want the “kind of love” he has to give, I would rather be alone. I did meet a man yesterday at the event, we talked then people started coming around and couldnt hold my attention to the conversation we were having. Most of the men there were with their girlfriend or wife. It’s a nice day and Im heading out again, the sun is shining and I am breaking out the sunblock. Fck I hate this shit lol.

  91.  #91Tina on July 19, 2009 at 7:38 am

    I have a choice, I could end this and just continue with the relationship the way it is or keep the distance and continue on my bridge. I’m choose to continue on my bridge. Its way fun and I feel less stress. I would just wait for him, to call, to come over, I would just wait for him to do anything. I planned my life around and between the waiting for him. Dating and money?. hey, just letting you know, I would never, as a matter of fact, I have never paid for a date. I always believe this is something a man does. I have bought food to cook so I guess this falls under paying for dinner but yeah it didnt seem like it at the time lol.

  92.  #92Linda on July 19, 2009 at 7:40 am

    Hi… who pays who doesnt? Lots of interesting comments here.

    I guess there are principles we all align with at one time or another in our lives. Society can dictate and or influence our notions about this too.

    I suppose I grew up thinking the guy will or should pay but I dont think it is set in stone. It is just an attitude that may not have been thought through. I am a pretty independant woman. If I am meeting someone for the first time I will pay for myself always. Later on down the road if I am asked out on a date and it is planned by him, I feel the funds should be his to afford the experience. If it is my idea, I will fund it. It has been fun to see the expressions on some guys faces when I pick up the tab. A genuine thank you and a shift in the way he perseives me by a visible change in his body language or facial expression is always present.

    Like most people male or female, we want to be vauled and not taken advantage of or taken for granted. As I see it the willingness to invest yourself in a relationship, money in a date, time in a conversation is worth investing above the level of mediocrity.

    I particularly love some of the comments from Jonathon. They are written quite well and they stir me to be able to articulate what I am personally looking for with a man in a relationship. Jonathon your attitudes and the way you describe… “discovering another by what they are instead of defining them by the empty space around them” is absolutely brilliantly put. Also the visual picture you painted of the tension and the dance is quite juicy. I totally get it and am looking for a partner who knows how to lead and follow.

    We meet all kinds of people on this journey we call life. Some Add to and some Take away from our lives but it is all a learning experience. I personally want to add to peoples lives and experience them for what they are and not by what they aren’t. I think my latest romantic involvement was with a person who was partially narsasitic. I was always being defined by what was not there instead of what was. It made me a more confident person because I could here what he said but did not believe if was true for a moment.

    We are all wonderful works of art. Some art we want to take home and some we just look at and decide it is interesing or not….All an experience.


  93.  #93Linda on July 19, 2009 at 7:50 am

    Oh,, I forgot… this. I totally believe that if you are, emulate and be what you want in life you will attract it to yourself. Be giving and you will be given to. It may not be by the person currently being given to by you but you will receive it back in one shape or form . Sowing good seed, reaps a harvest of the same and visa versa.

    In a love relationship, there are ebs and flows. Sometimes we are giving, sometimes receiving. Expecting something all the time for your benefit and not reciprocating is ugly and makes another compensate or over function. That is a receipe for failure. You will know who fits and doesnt fit just by giving and seeing what happens. I am not saying we should give or say or behave in ways that are done to manipulate someone to get what we want. That is selfcentered and wrong. Be genuine, give because they are human and because you can. Character is always proven in time. Yours and theirs.


  94.  #94Terrance Thames on July 19, 2009 at 7:54 am

    Daria-I appreciate your honesty, but I also feel really triggered by what you wrote.

    You said: Ummmm… so what… sorry no I don’t feel attracted to every man who takes me to dinner even if he takes me out 3 or more times and yes I will sometimes be nice and tell them I had fun even if I’m not attracted to them like Terrance’s woman.

    I am practicing with them. They are practicing with me.
    I am wondering why you are trying to align yourself with this girl I mentioned. The guys she went out with had NO chance. She went out with them for the meal. Not for the practice. She wasn’t all that open to becoming attracted and she wasn’t thinking “I want to give these guys practice by letting them be around me” or “maybe I’ll give this guy a chance and see if he can win me over” This how a man can get objectified and used. Every guy I know has met and been used by this type of girl. This was one of the main real reasons why I did that experiement. To learn how to sift and weed these types of women out. Its a waste of my time and money dealing with it.

    Another trigger: “I had a hard time allowing men to take me out without ME FEELING LIKE THEY ARE CHUMPS” I have gotten over it now

    Can you imagine how many women HAVE NOT gotten over it and still do it for the wrong reasons? Probably way more than those who have gotten over it. This a huge reason why men are protective of their money and look for sex as a way for you to prove you are interested.

    I don’t think I have ever knowingly gone on a date with a girl that I was NOT interested in. Even when I did that experiement. I genuinely was attracted to all of the girls in some way. To think that some of the girls went out with me purely to get a meal makes me feel disgusted and disrespected of my time and energy. We all need the practice so I can respect that. You don’t need practice on how to get a free meal.

  95.  #95Terrance Thames on July 19, 2009 at 8:00 am

    Linda- Great post!

  96.  #96Aldonza on July 19, 2009 at 8:44 am

    I’ve been giving this much more thought. I really do see the other side of this. I have male friends who, in tough economic times, have trouble dating as much as they would like. But I think that everyone is over focused on the money aspect. The money is just a small part of it. A woman wants to feel cherished. It’s that simple. She can feel ignored sitting at an elegant restaurant, or she can feel cherished eating an ice cream cone, as her date gazes adoringly.

    For me, it really is that simple.

    I can *feel* when a man cherishes me. A man who does that would never ask to split the check. He would pick dates that were appropriate to his economic abilities and follow-through on them.

    This is very important to me, because as one of the throng of “over-functioners”, I *need* to let him do these things to reset the balance. I also need to do these things to keep from attracting the same kind of men who take from me without a thought of giving in return.

    I do find it sad that both sides of the aisle have been abused for their very giving natures and are now skittish about it. I think men do have a responsibility to be critical of their dates who demand and demand and give nothing in return. I wouldn’t respect a man who throws money at women any more than I would a man who is niggardly and cynical.

    I also find it sad that Jason can’t see that his very rigid position on this may well cost him an otherwise very satisfying relationship. And while I agree with Erica in theory, the way she has chosen to state her position on the topic feels equally rigid to me. I see them squaring off as opponents in opposite corners of a dating ring instead of flowing like dancers where he chooses to lead and she chooses to follow and they glide across the floor together.

    But I’m kind of romantic that way.

    I want to glide too.

  97.  #97Simply Shannon on July 19, 2009 at 9:20 am

    Tinque: Somehow I didn’t see the posts after Terrance’s post asking for examples. Even I need a cold shower after reading that! I’ll just say WOW and leave it at that. 🙂

    Terrance: I missed your post last night asking about what I would do for the first few dates. At that point, I’m trying to decide if we’re compatible and if I want to keep going out with you. In the beginning, I’m simply a fun date. It’s difficult to explain (which doesn’t help you, does it?). I’m still being me and seductive and looking good, smelling good, etc. I’m enthusiastic about going out with you. I’m authentic, and it’s simple to please me. I’m easy to be around, but I’m not “easy”. I pretty much do all of the things I mentioned (minus the sex – lol!).

    I feel disappointed reading about the women who are going out for the free meal. I personally think that’s a lie to cover up the disappointment that they haven’t met someone they truly enjoyed. I don’t go out with that attitude. I go out open to the possibilities between us and it shows. I may not feel a connection with every man I go out with but we’re still going to have fun and maybe I get a cool friend out of the deal. That’s fun for me! I’m not looking to be wined and dined. I can do that on my own. I want the experience of getting to know you and sharing my world with you.

    I feel a lot softer about this whole dating and money thing. I appreciate the men for not wanting to be taken advantage of, just like I don’t want to be wined and dined for sex. I’ve gone out with plenty of men who had one thing in mind and maybe I spent a lot of energy on them before I realized it. Does that make me a chump? Nope. I’m open to the possibility of a connection with you. Maybe it works out. Maybe it doesn’t. Unfortunately I feel disconnected and unromantic when I pay and pursue. I wish I had better words to explain this but it’s simply how I feel. Maybe it’s a biological thing? I don’t know.

    Linda and Aldonza: BEAUTIFUL posts. I loved reading them. I feel your heart in your words. Thank you.

  98.  #98Nikita on July 19, 2009 at 9:46 am

    My dates always pay. They also always choose what to do/where to go. I feel it is fair. In the beginning I pay for my taxi, that’s my investment. If he insists on paying for my taxi, I gain more respect for him. He makes me feel like showing up for him is effortless. So I feel more relaxed accepting dates with him. If I have no interest in him I won’t accept more than two dates. The second one is to give him another chance to convince me but if he doesn’t make me feel good there is no third date. Game over.
    My intimate partner always pays for everything. He will not let me even offer! I once tried to pay for his coffee and he gave me this look; as if to ask- are you crazy or purposely trying to disrespect me in public???? That felt sexy, he conveyed exactly what his intentions are….to be the masculine energy always. I’ve never bought him a b-day card, he asks me to make him one….so I cut up a pink silk robe I had( it was truly on it’s last leg ) into 4 hearts, I sewed them together (by hand) with bright blue thread and embroidered the b-day message. He keeps it next to his bed. Any other cards he gets he eventually throws in the trash. I invested hours of my time to make it for him-it felt like a labor of love. I feel very valued that he keeps it so close to him. He always tells me; “I don’t want you to spend your money on me”.
    Reading the comments from the guys here makes me feel like I am with a rare man. I feel a little scared. I don’t want to feel like there is a scarcity of traditional men. I want to feel cherished.

  99.  #99Rori Raye on July 19, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Aldonza, you rock. I love your comment – it’s exactly what I’m all about here. We have to learn. We have to practice. We have to develop our confidence and self-esteem, and the fastest way is to learn to receive, and to PRACTICE receiving. If you don’t know what it feels like to be cherished — you will miss it. You’ll avoid it. You’ll mistake it for something else when it shows up. You’ll mistake “chemistry” for cherishing. That’s why it’s so important to observe the “conventions” at the beginning, because we need to learn. To all the men here…please understand this. We are not about being in some sort of “position” with you. This is not about “status” – which is a crucial part of the “seduction community” Tools. (Perhaps I’ve never mentioned it…but David DeAngelo is one of my dearest friends, and though he may have started out teaching men how to pick up girls, he’s evolved into a teacher of how to be a great man…so I’m VERY familiar with the pick-up legacy…) This is about CONNECTION. And in order to connect, we first have to connect to ourselves. That means we have to put ourselves in situations where we can surrender our “stances.” (I talk about this a lot in Modern Siren and Targeting Mr. Right). A man who gets that not all women are fully formed as goddesses, and that we need certain things to happen on your end in order to feel safe enough to be our best, deepest selves – even if you are a STEP along the way (and we appreciate your help with this, you’ll simply have to be aware of things and not spend lots of money getting to know a woman – just observe the conventions and you will learn right along with us…) — will reap the reward of a fantastic woman. This way you can BOTH be “in process” – perhaps together. Love, Rori

  100.  #100Daria on July 19, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Terrance –

    I feel confused reading waht you wrote about “Can you see how many women haven’t gotten over it and still do it for the wrong reasons?”

    What I got over was my own low self esteem or maybe just the belief that men who pay are chumps. This was way off track for me because I was only in friend relationships or where I was paying for everything at that time. A woman who wouldn’t get over this means she would still be suffering and pretty much not allowing men to pay for her, or dating men who would.

    There have been times where I felt that I could not afford to wine and dine myself. There have been times when I would go out with a man because he was taking me out to eat and not because I was attracted to him. I felt hungry.

    Whenever I have felt guilty about this I was also feeling terribly insecure like I was lower status because I didn’t have the same financial resources. (even if it were just in that moment)

    I have been with many men in the past who have borrowed money from me and not returned it, expected me to drive everywhere, buy them food, or whatever…

    I could whine all day about it but I don’t feel like whining.

    After I read some of Rori’s stuff… I actually had to teach myself to accept being bought stuff. That meant I had to date a lot of men I was not attracted to and let them buy me dinner. That was part of my learning. I dated one guy over a year who bought me dinner all the time…
    and I was not attracted to him. I feel kinda guilty and at the same time I realize that he is getting something out of this too… time with me, a woman to date, and someone to show off. My best guy friend said not to worry because the guy is definitely getting something out of it.

    I have been with many men who pressured me for sex but it generally was NOT the ones who paid for my dinner.

    If a man does NOT want to pay for dinner and is worried about being used then DO NOT PAY is my advice for that man in the situation.

    If a woman does not want to have sex and is worried about being used then do not have sex is my advice for that woman in the situation.

    I realize that I trigger you and at the same time I want to express myself.

    I kinda see it as my entitlement as a woman to use men for dinner or what they offer me.

    Men self select themselves around me all the time… the ones worried about being used occupying the low status ranks.

    The men I’m attracted to I don’t see worrying about being used. They pay for me because they want to.

    Perhaps for a bunch of other women they don’t pay. But they pay for me.

    When they don’t have money they will either subtly let me know or try to make ends meet someway.

    The ones that waffle about you pay for this because I got that feel annoying to me. (unless he really has no money at the time and this is the only way he is able to lead in that situation and he clearly lets me know that in a way that makes me feel good)

    Sometimes I get men who want me to pay for stuff because they don’t think they should pay. I always require them to pay in full. They try to give me lots of arguments and guess what they keep calling (shock for me I thought that they would stop).

    The more I let men Do for me the harder they fall for me.

    The more self -esteem and less guilt I have the more they want to Do for me.

    I intend to keep upping my self esteem and accepting tons of free meals without any guilt.

    Am looking forward now to accepting bigger things like business help, cars, and gifts. hehe…

    and to think that one time awhile ago I was the one planning to do these things for my man… wow… boy if I did it I’m pretty sure a guy could do it too…

    oh yeah I’m open to accept a condo too… hehe… and trips…

    I can’t believe how many free things I missed out on before by not expecting men to give to me.

    I feel like triggering you and saying its great to be a girl and have everyone give to you, attracted or not. Even random men at the gas station will give stuff to me.

  101.  #101Rori Raye on July 19, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Lisa – Welcome, and so sorry, this is not a dating site, so I took out your email address. Hope you’ll continue to add to the discussion, Love, rori

  102.  #102Rori Raye on July 19, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Welcome, and yes, different cultures have different values and history – and yet each country in Europe (I have clients all over the world) find different blocks to love. There is the chivalry of England, which came to America, and the Vikings brought something completely different. Some cultures feel very emotionless and cold, some are more explosive. And women are more valued in different ways in Europe than here. Nevertheless, in America, we’re close to many cultures. We’ve adopted a more “macho” attitude that’s being eroded by the economy. Men are desperately trying to find a way to regain a sense of respect and mastery over their own lives, and masculinity. The conventions of dating – old and traditional and worn out as they seem – offer a man a way to make a masculine impact right off the bat.

    Anyone see “The Hammer” on TV? I think it totally nailed this whole issue. with a complex leading man and woman.

  103.  #103Rori Raye on July 19, 2009 at 11:21 am

    This is all about feelings, romance, and success in love. If you have all that, and it’s good, you don’t need me. If you’d like to see an improvement in all that, try something new. Try something you see here. Love, Rori

  104.  #104Daria on July 19, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I suddenly realized that Terrance is not trying to trigger me, he is trying to learn too! Duh!

    That make me feel much warmer and and compassionate towards him.

    I feel protective thinking of him spending money taking all these women out who may not be nice to him! no no no.

    Terrance save your money and take out One woman that you really like.

    As far as dating and meeting women, I say take the women along with you for a ride through Your day, while still paying them lots of attention.

    Also you can spend some time talking to them on the phone to see what you think about them. The more laid back ones you can invite to go to the park, or even offer to pick them up to come over to your house and have a beer and a massage.

    It always feels good to me when a man offers me something when he’s inviting me (especially if I have to drive, ugh).

    I personally would LOVE a guy who says he’s gonna pick me up, take me to his house to do fun stuff with him, then take me back. I am very laid back though. (it may not seem like it from my strong stance on free dinner). haha.

    Ok if the woman seems not so laid back but kinda fancy then… lets see… take her out somewhere by the water, or where there’s a nice view (no wind). Bring a secret bottle of wine and two glasses.

    Or… find AUTHENTIC ethnic food restaurants that have romantic decor and are affordable… then take her there… ethnic food restaurants can be a lot cheaper and just as romantic as super pricy ones.

    Or… find out what she likes to do, and do a variation of that. Maybe she likes dancing… take her out to a free dance club.

    If she says… oh I will only go to so and so expensive place, I would talk to her to see whats really going on there… is this one of the “using” you things? If so don’t go for it. Only do the things you feel comfortable doing. Be prepared to talk about it!!! It may be scary or uncomfortable. Don’t be ashamed. Say you don’t want to go there.

    You are leading. Her expressing a desire is a strong motivator for you (I know because I do it all the time… I want to go to sushi!!! etc). I know it makes you feel like you really want to do that for her, and like she will look down on you if you dont. She wont. You’re the leader. You get to choose what to do. You can choose something else that you think she will like. She may like it more and she may like you more for being creative. AND SHE WILL DEFINITELY LIKE YOU MORE FOR STANDING UP FOR YOURSELF without blaming her.

    You may even choose not to take her out at that time if she seems insistent on doing that one particular thing. There is always next time. It is on your terms.

    I’m not saying ignore a woman’s desires. At the same time, don’t be a CHUMP. Do it only if you Can and Want to. But if you Can… then do it… or else she Will see that you don’t want to. And if you don’t want to please her… maybe she’s not the woman for you.

  105.  #105Terrance Thames on July 19, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Daria- Thanks for putting so much into that and expressing yourself. I would have expected nothing less 🙂

    My question was refering to this: “maybe just the belief that men who pay are chumps” There a lot of woman who have this belief system. I didn’t realize the part about getting used to recieving until reading Rori’s comment right before yours. This resonates with me.

    Rori said- We have to practice. We have to develop our confidence and self-esteem, and the fastest way is to learn to receive, and to PRACTICE receiving.

    This is golden and I feel universal to both men practicing to GIVE for the right reasons and to the right women, and women practicing recieving

    You wrote: I dated one guy over a year who bought me dinner all the time…and I was not attracted to him. I feel kinda guilty and at the same time I realize that he is getting something out of this too… time with me, a woman to date, and someone to show off.

    My question is: if you dated him and this wasn’t platonic (I sometimes take my girl-friends out to dinner) then how do you show someone sexual affection that you aren’t attracted to?

    And did the guy know that you werent attracted to him?

    This here resonated with me the most: The more I let men do for me the harder they fall for me.

    In the seduction community they would call this qualification.

    I couldn’t agree with you more. It works both ways though. The more a woman does for me the harder they fall too.

    Which comes back to investment and recipocity. I feel the more confident you are the more you will be able to hold your boundaries and walk away if they aren’t respected. Or in other words have mutual investment. My boundaries include reciprocity (not money wise but something in a way I can understand it)

    I learned a really hard lesson in boundaries when I almost proposed to a girl who kept our entire relationship a secret from her family for 3 years! (her mom and dad were racist) I told her I would deal for 2 years so that they would pay her college tuition. It took me a full year to respect my boundaries and to walk away. Her respect for me by then was obviously gone.

    Oh yea and this: I feel like triggering you and saying its great to be a girl and have everyone give to you, attracted or not. Even random men at the gas station will give stuff to me.

    I couldn’t agree more. You don’t have to be a girl to feel great to have everyone give to you. I think it feels great myself. Even random women bartenders at the bar giving me free drinks…hehe

    I find that the more I give to EVERYBODY not just women the more I recieve. I would give people the shirt off my back if I could because I know it will come back to me 10 fold. I guess its my abundance mentality. Yes it allows to you get hurt more than a cautious person but the more confident you are the more this seemed to be the natural and authenic way for me to be.

    By the way up until now I didn’t know you had written another comment. I was going to edit it but my instinct is to leave everything and comment from here on your new post 🙂

    Yes I here to learn as much as I am her to provide a male view.
    i appreciate all the dating ideas! I did a lot of those around that time. I especially like this: As far as dating and meeting women, I say take the women along with you for a ride through Your day, while still paying them lots of attention.

    I got particularly successful dates when i took women to the grocery store for shopping, for both of us. And when they were into fitness I would take them to the gym with me. One time I recall initially meeting a girl who mentioned to me that she was looking for a new apt. I then set up a date with appts to look at apartments for a few hours. I love doing that! and mostly inexpensive to free and I never had a bad date.

    Thanks for this post. I appreciate it 🙂

  106.  #106Daria on July 19, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Terrance –

    I feel realy triggered about your relationship with the girl who kept it a secret from her family. I too keep my relationships and dating separate (or secret) from my family.

    How does this violate a boundary ?? It is my life and if someone were to marry they would marry ME not my parents…

    I feel upset and confused… actually I am being triggered on my own issues I guess.

    also as far as the guy I dated that I was not attracted to. I did not show him sexual affection. We were not platonic, because we were dating. But he didn’t really make a move on me. We never kissed. he mentioned he wanted to kiss me in a text and i said i feel weird and that was 3 months into it… it didnt come up again. I started feeling weird if it seemed like he was going to kiss me and I think he felt that.

  107.  #107Terrance Thames on July 19, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    It was a little different for me. You see I had the same feeling as you did about me marrying HER not the family. I didn’t care about her family’s problem. I loved her. The problem was when someone who knew her family would come around (i.e the ex-boyfriend) she felt he could not know about us for fear of him talking to someone in the family which would get back to the parents. There were many situations like this with different people but the results of them ranged from me being dis-invited places because someone unexpextedly showed up. The ex (above) trying to get back with her, hitting on her, tryin to spend the night when he was in town….etc Thats why I felt she needed to stand up to her parents and tell them. It was interferring with our relationship.

    How this applies to the thread here is if she would have INVESTED in me and told her parents, I would have felt majorly appreciated and respected and therefore I would have proposed to her. It would not have cost a penny! I had the ring all picked for her (the one she mentioned she liked when we went looking rings just for fun) and ready to go, but instead she lost me. I’m much better off now.

    I have a lot of questions for you for some reason 🙂

    What is your definition of dating? Maybe our definitions might not aligned because what you described to me is platonic in my book. I do that with my best girl-friend all the time.

    Could it be that since he just didn’t man up and lead you that you didnt feel attracted to him?

  108.  #108alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    i feel good to read all the comments. i feel a desire to learn how to receive more. i feel sad i am not good at it. i feel a litttle guilty. i always feel like men can not afford to buy things for me. they can afford other things in their life. they can afford to buy strange girls drinks at clubs probably but dinner for me might break them. that’s what i tell myself.

    i feel nervous to allow men to buy for me. i feel obligated to freaking marry them and stay with them forever. i feel overwhelmed when guys say things about OUR future before i barely know them. i feel triggered by circulardating. i feel enormously triggered by life. hehee

  109.  #109alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    i feel triggered and ignored that terrance said he would tell me ways of how a woman can show a man she is appreciating, investing etc. and then totally blew it off.

    i feel triggered like i am somehow nothing. i feel angry. i feel like punishing. i am going to figure it our for myself as a way of punishing. if i can do what i aksed the man to do then i donlt need the man.

    i feel punishing and also like i am revealing my dark side purposefully.

    things i can do to help a man feel good as we date:

    -enjoy myself
    -express my feelings
    -be IN my body
    -paint myself with love
    -smile geniunely when the moments arise
    -verbally express appreciation for whatever i truly am appreciating (i feel scared i will over do this so sometimes i hold back. what do you think?)
    -dress nice and show up looking goddessey (even if it’s only jeans and ponytail still be goddessey)
    -let him pick me up, walk me to my door, open door, pull chairs etc
    -go with the flow and respect his leadership while still contributing with feeling messages
    -genuinely listen and be curious about who he is as a man
    -respect what is important to him

    i feel confused how to show i am invested. hmm. maybe make dates in advance to show he is a part of my life? i feel unsure on this one.

    maybe continue to refer back to things he has mentioned to show i am truly listening and care about what he has shared with me?

    i feel nervous to date. rrrgh.

  110.  #110Terrance Thames on July 19, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    AG-I feel honored that you thought about me enough to affect you even it is triggering. 🙂

    I haven’t blown you off. Your question requires a lot of thought and feeling and I have already given you 4 ways for myself personally. It is really a moment by moment thing how a women can show appreciation. Here are a couple more.

    Genuine touching and reciprocation of touching is nice.
    Text messages: I just got this from a girl the next day after a successful date the other day “Thank you for spending time with me u always make me smile and laugh! Thank you for being YOU! Xoxox”

    I felt great after that message. It was genuine and heart felt. She will get another date!

    Most of the time it is situational and being present and tuned in allows you to not miss those times where you can show appreciation

    I hope this helps

  111.  #111Terrance Thames on July 19, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Heres a more subtle one

    Hint that you are available 1 or maybe 2 days in the future and if he bites on it, allow him to make plans or be willing to reschedule if he can’t make it. but let him lead

  112.  #112alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    thank you terrance. I feel relieved i did not alienate you forever which seems to be my pattern with the human race.

    i feel heard. I feel compassion. i feel helped. i feel embarrassed. i feel like hiding. i feel tears. i feel embarrassed.

    i feel angry. ? i feel confused. I feel laughing. I feel weird. i feel like stopping sharing my feelings.

  113.  #113Erika on July 19, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    hi Aldonza,

    wow thanks for that honesty. yeah, I do feel rigid about it. and strident. and I feel like I want to be rigid, not with men in general, but with him, because it feels self-protective.

    I shared every feeling I could as vulnerably as I could, and I did not feel like he had the capacity to hold the space for that. so I disconnected.

    I feel a little sad about that, but mostly I feel relief from the pressure I was feeling when interacting with him.

    I feel more compassion now that I disconnected. I feel softer toward him when we are no longer discussing this.

  114.  #114Erika on July 19, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    It’s frustrating to feel not “gotten.”

    To put it in concrete terms, I live in financial integrity. For example, I have an astronomical credit score. Now imagine I put my life together (legally, through marriage) with a man who has no credit. Then suddenly I have to deal with the stress of that, when I have made a priority of living in integrity so that I can feel peace and ease about money.

    I live in a community property state. Suddenly this man, who is not contributing financially, would be entitled to half my earnings.

    How does that feel? Awful, icky.

    It would feel great if I had faith in the man to be an “equal” (to use Jason’s word) contributor. Then we would bring each other up. Then 1+1 = 3. That feels synergistic, uplifting. But instead I feel strained, like I would be asked to carry the weight for both people. That prospect feels horrifying. It feels like 1+1 = -5. It feels depleting.

    Then add things like him saying on his blog how he wants a woman to JOYFULLY open her wallet to pay for his meals (which feels like a man asking the woman to be the man), and how I commented on there with my feelings, and he refused to publish my comments.

    And eww, icky, it’s no wonder I feel rigid and self-protective.

  115.  #115cookie on July 19, 2009 at 4:27 pm


  116.  #116cookie on July 19, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    I have a friend, a nurse, she is on her path of experimenting with life, dating other men outside of the relationship she has been in for the past 13 years with her child’s father. The guys she is dating make way less than her, she pays for everything. I don’t get it and wouldn’t want that for myself. I’m at the age where I’m feeling like I don’t want to prove to anybody that I’m independent and strong because I know it. I want a man to bring to my life more than good sex, I want a man that can and will

  117.  #117cookie on July 19, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Hold me down if ever. Actually I want a man that is doing for me as often as he can. I guess because her babys dad is that man so the other men can give her the emotional and physical attention she is missing. I want it all

  118.  #118tinque on July 19, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    having it all is well within the realm of possibility. try to remain open. be curious. be surprised. be in awe, for what you seek may not look exactly like your fantasy.

  119.  #119Jason Miller on July 19, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    This topic is near and dear to me, but I’m coming rather late to the party with over 100 comments ahead of mine! If I’m repeating something that came earlier, I apologize.

    I get what Rori’s saying completely. In fact, she’s pointing out WHEN I feel inspired to be the man and do all the planning and paying while dating. When a woman is fully in her feminine on those first dates is when I feel so good about taking the masculine role. It’s happening to me right now with a very lovely woman I recently met. She’s so grounded in her femininity I feel wonderful being romantic in this way.

    When a woman shows up on those first few dates operating in her masculine aspect, it not only kills attraction, but also kills any desire I have to pay for her or plan the next date. It’s simply ensures that I’m “not into her”. I’ve even been on dates where a woman has shown anger when I insist on paying, as hard as that may be for some of you to believe. It becomes this post-feminist power struggle that I don’t want to be a part of.

    Very often women will flash a credit card at the end of a (usually first) date and then test me to see if I decline her offer to split it or not. The decision is quite simple for me. If she’s attractive and in her feminine aspect, then I decline. If I’m not interested in going out again, I split. It is the rare woman who is confident in her feminine aspect who knows simply how to be to inspire me to pay while refraining from offering. She is not using me for a free meal or whatever. She is simply allowing me to take the lead fully. This inspires me to ask her out again.

    This is a very subtle feeling for me as a man. If I sense she is using me in ANY way, I’m turned off. But if she just radiates and I’m into her, then it feels great.

    But here’s where I take issue:

    If this is a man you’re dating (and if you’re familiar with my work about a life-plan I call “Circular Dating” you know you ONLY stop dating when you’re ENGAGED) – then you can make a sandwich or popcorn for him occasionally at your place (please no fancy, impressive meals). You can “give back” and still be a girl, as long as it’s small, something YOU enjoy, and infrequent.

    Perhaps I need to really understand what Circular Dating really is and what the rationale is for it, but how long does a guy have to wait for his girlfriend to make him dinner? In fact, that’s one of the things that I appreciate most from a woman! To me this is a rather strange new rule I’ve never seen before. And honestly, I find it rather harsh.

    I guess really this disagreement is based on different concepts in dating. Mine is you go from courtship to exclusive relationship (BF/GF), to marriage. This concept of not dating exclusively until ENGAGEMENT is quite provocative and I wouldn’t stand for it. I guess Circular Dating women would let me go pretty quickly. I won’t propose to a woman until I’ve had enough relationship time with her to know that she’s the one. I might entertain the idea of a 2-3 year engagement after dating for a few months if it feels right to me. That would leave enough time to know that person well enough. That’s the most important thing.

  120.  #120Daria on July 19, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    Terrance –

    What is your definition of dating?

    My definition of dating is when two people spend time together with romantic interest from one side or both that is clearly spoken.

    Could it be that since he just didn’t man up and lead you that you didnt feel attracted to him?

    Yes. Most likely that is why I didn’t start feeling attracted to him. (Although I didn’t really feel physical attraction in the beginning, Rori says this can change.)

    I wish my best guy friends would want to pay for my meals everyday. That sounds very nice. Lol. I might really raise my standards on dating then since my food craving would be fulfilled.

  121.  #121Daria on July 19, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    Jason Miller… Circular Dating is useful for avoiding 2-3 year engagements to a man who might then decide not to marry you.

    I don’t think a Circular Dating woman would “let you go” as long as you wanted to date her and she felt good with you.

    It sounds more like you think you would let her go. Well. I feel triggered. Either way, I don’t care for being in a 2-3 year engagement so perhaps that is a good thing.

    Then again, if you wanted to claim a circular dating woman and get engaged, that would work. I doubt she would agree to you if you told her about the 2-3 year engagement though. Circular Dating women will not usually want that, because they want to marry, so when they say yes they suppose you mean yes, not maybe, lets take a long time to figure it out.

    The whole purpose of Circulad Dating is to avoid the situation of the long relationship that is not yet sure if it will end in marriage. A situation most men enjoy and women don’t.

  122.  #122Daria on July 19, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    The comments I made to Jason were about a woman who wanted to get married. Of course there are other women out there, who for their own reasons don’t want to get married.

  123.  #123Daria on July 19, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    I feel excited that Circular Dating will (basically) force a guy to find out if he’s the right one for me without tying me down first. If he knows he’s the one for me then he can propose. After he’s won me over. Because I have to say yes. And after he proposes we will get married, soon, because that’s why he proposed.

  124.  #124Erika on July 19, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    Thanks, Daria. I feel horrified by the idea of a 2-3 year engagement.

    Also … for all the Sirens who beat themselves up after dates and think they were somehow not “feminine” or “radiant” enough …

    Today I participated in another men’s seminar. I admire these men because they are taking steps to man up …

    Anyhoo, it’s easier to see the dynamics when I’m not personally involved. But a lot of the men I’ve seen in workshops, not just this one, though more conscious than most, are still so un-present themselves that — I don’t care how you show up as a woman. You can be radiant, feminine, etc. But without a facilitator/mediator, you’re not going to FEEL anything back from a lot of guys.

    And it has nothing to do with us. They are struggling just as many women are struggling, to become more real, more whole, more authentic. They have all kinds of defense systems operating.

    It really brings home to me though the importance of not taking it personally when a guy doesn’t call or doesn’t do the things we’d like him to do for us to feel like a woman.

    Instead, I feel empowered when I continue to meet many, many men and notice how I feel around each of them, not getting too wrapped up in any of them.

  125.  #125Daria on July 19, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Yes. Also I don’t think a lot of men will be thrilled about the idea of the woman they like Circular Dating (unless they are Very good at putting her first). That is kind of the point. To put the man in a hotseat and put fire to his desire.

    Remember Rori said men will grumble and get angry. Of course. But they will still want you more. If they don’t, they don’t want to fight for you, then they are unwilling to claim for you and are not the one for you.

  126.  #126Erika on July 19, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    Men grumble about me a lot. It makes me smile inside :-p

  127.  #127Justin on July 19, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    I absolutely adore women, but I promise, it doesn’t take circular dating to make us grumble. 😉

    I feel like saying more in this discussion, but I feel like not too many minds are being changed. I’m going to stick to my “to each their own” theory.


  128.  #128Jody on July 19, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    I completely leaned back last night… PAY DIRT!! I had a great time!! Finally someone I’m really attracted to!! He has texted me 3x today telling how mesmerized he is! wow!! I feel completely thrilled!!

    Terrance, I felt so sad to read about your ex girlfriend.. That had to feel awful, I felt so sad just reading it. You have a very attractive attitude, that I just feel so drawn to, your thoughts and opinions are deep and heart felt. I have to admit I feel at awe, lost in your words!!!

  129.  #129Jody on July 19, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    Jason, what do you feel makes you sit up and take notice? I’m very curious.. If you feel a connection to a woman, how do you let her walk away, is it logic? is it the place you are at in life? what does it take to reach a man’s inner heart?

    I’ve just been through some rough times and these are the questions i’m left with.. That is why I’m trying to make changes in myself, and connect to the loving woman I know I am.

    I would greatly appreciate your insight…

  130.  #130Jody on July 19, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    I’m so sorry… Justin!!! I’m not all with it tonight!! truly I’m very sorry!!

  131.  #131Daria on July 19, 2009 at 6:52 pm

    I feel judgemental and superior.

    I’ve started to take that to mean I feel grateful at some part inside me is Better or good. I feel grateful.

    I feel judgemental reading that Jody is telling Justin she’s sorry…

    I have an image of women throwing themselves at men’s feet. Like oh no please don’t leave I’m so sorry. I feel all superior and glad I’m not doing that… and that feels like…

    I feel guilty…

    This feels triggering

    God I must really be a bitch. I am going to piss of Jody and Justin and a whole bunch of other people.

    I am REALLY MEAN!!!


    I feel confused how to express this without being mean.

  132.  #132Daria on July 19, 2009 at 6:54 pm


    I don’t feel interested in changing my mind. I do feel open to your continued imput.

    I’m feeling very controlly right now.

    Did you all know that I know best. I havea very BOSSY attitude. Thats what they told me in 3rd grade when I moved to the US. Does not play well with others.

    I felt so shocked and confused and sad.

  133.  #133JasonSavage on July 19, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    Since I have found my path and purpose in life to help people communicate and connect, especially about sex and dating, I have found two things that consistently turn my stomach. Yes, I FEEL sick.

    One is this group of men that will do anything to attain sex. (This often involves lying, manipulation, and paying.) And their articles like “How to Fuck Her on the First Date Every Time.”

    And two is a group of women who believe that their sex is somehow worth more than a man’s. (This is a sense of entitlement that says the man’s time, attention, and presence is not enough.) And articles like “Who Pays For the Date. He Does.”

    When the two groups come together, I see a lot of ‘games’ being played on both ends, and a lot of inauthentic communication, and barriers to true intimacy.

    Virtually all gender differences are cultural.

    A naked man and woman, shaved of all hair and make-up removed LOOK THE SAME… besides sex organs and the fact that the male is 20% bigger.

    An infant boy and an infant girl are nearly identical. And equal.

    Genderazation begins *before birth* and by age 2 gender roles are firmly established.

    I’m bringing this up because it is never a man’s role to PAY. A man should never consider this a measure of his worth. It’s all cultural differences.

    Who pays has nothing to do with gender. Seeing the opposite sex as an equal, as a peer, has nothing to do with sexual polarity.

    Any FEELING you get about this has to do with how you were raised and not how you are wired. It is programming that you can get over.

    Just as DRC got over the “weirdness and resistance” toward being with a man 12 years her junior.

    Your time equals my time. Your attention equals my attention. Your sex equals my sex. Your orgasm equals my orgasm. And your money equals my money. Your personality equals my personality. Your presence equals my presence.

    All this talk of how your personality and presense equals my money is just silly.

    What I describe is not all tit-for-tat, one-for-one, but a sense of EQUAL CONTRIBUTION. Ideas such as:

    *Getting to know each other without dates that involve money.
    *Splitting bills 50-50.
    *Spliting bills along income lines.
    *I’ll get this one, you get the next one.
    *You buy the groceries, I’ll cook and do the dishes
    *Any sense of EQUAL CONTRIBUTION decided together by communication and not ‘rules’ based on entitlement.

    Rori: “My take is this: If you have money enough to take care of yourself and half your children, and you’re a good, conscious guy also – you have options.”

    To provide for me and half my children is exactly what I strive for. As you know, this IS equality. This is balance. My wife will provide for herself and half our children. EQUAL. Again, I am not talking about keeping tally, just having that sense of EQUAL CONTRIBUTION as a symbol of our commitment, connection, and promise to communicate without a sense of entitlement. Most importantly, this is in the context of marriage/LTR not dating!

    Know yourself and know how to screen for what you want from the start. I screen for women that value respect, reciporicity, and mutual interest/investment.

    I am willing to let women walk away that chose differential treatment. I do not “take a cue” from the woman to decide how I am going to play things. Chivalry is often nothing more than TACTIC to men that know what they are doing (community guys) to get the results that they want. I don’t do it. I take a stance. You can accept my respect, or you can walk, because I do not use differnetial treatment as a means to an end.

    Nearly everyone is saying some version of the same thing. Everyone has some experience where expectations were not aligned and a relationship dissolved or did not get off the ground.

    Justin: “Some men who pay for dates do indeed expect things (kissing at least, probably sex) from their dates.”

    And: “Women who earnestly offer to pay their own way show respect for their men.”

    Roark: “What happens – A guy pays for a date, he may feel like he over invested, while his date underinvested, and directly from that, he FEELS less respect from his date. Glowing appreciation helps, but reciprocity is the real key.”

    And: “I find it sexy to have a woman offer to pay for things.”

    Andrew: “For me, a woman that expects me to pay for everything on a first date just screams manipulative or high-maintenance. I’d feel like a chump, used for entertainment, free drinks, or a source of emotional validation, then forgotten when the next easy target or shiny object comes along”

    And: “A woman that demands a provider first before becoming a lover is using her sexual value as a barter, much the same as prostitute.”

    PoF: “I almost always pay for myself on a first date, or at least I try. It’s not because I’m not feminine, but because, until otherwise stated, we’re casually seeing each other. He has no responsibility or obligation towards me.”

    And: “We’re equals. Our sexual differences do not matter. If I expect different treatment, then I am going to be viewed as different…”

    Jonathan: “But it is possible to find that polarized equality, for two people of ANY combination of genders to celebrate and inflame the masculine AND feminine energies of their counterpart. This has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with two people who are ‘whole and self-sustaining’ fully appreciating the wholeness of one another.”

    And: “If both are self-sustaining, then neither will ‘expect’ anything. They offer, they invite, they give….but they do not expect, and they do not need.”

    Valmont: “Yeh sure if it’s a cheap date I’ll pay but from my experience, money does not make a women’s pussy wet. women want men who are sexy, handsome, confident, fun and who have strong boundaries (can say no to her and challenge her).”

    Terrence: “I once knew a woman that admitted to me that she would go out literally 4-6 nights a week on dinner dates with the sole purpose of getting a free meal. She wasn’t really interested in these guys at all. All these guys she went out with thought she was interested and she acted entitled to the meal and interested eventhough she wasn’t over and over again until they got the point. She said it usually would take about 2-3 dates before they got the hint.”

    Sounds like circular dating TO THE HILT! 😉

  134.  #134Daria on July 19, 2009 at 7:53 pm

    Unlike Jason…

    I feel no aversion to men who will do anything to have sex (grew up with a bunch of them). I find it fun and amusing and have tried to help them many times.

    I then also like women who allow men to pay like in the article.

    I feel amused that Jason FEELS sick about these two groups. I don’t really believe that he does feel sick to his stomach.

    Blah blah. Justin I feel attacked. I’m feeling really annoyed.

    Then again I do have a female friend who believes in gender equality and not only that but no gender differences at all. Then again I think he boyfriend treats her like a princess and she circular dates. Hmm…

    Here’s my authentic Communication:

    I feel unheard, unvalued and uncherished reading your comment.

  135.  #135Daria on July 19, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    PS – I feel compelled to tell Jason to stop hating and Get off MY BLOG.

    Lol… I feel amused at myself… that was just an nv.

    I’m feeling really triggered hehe.

  136.  #136Daria on July 19, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    I feel overwhelmed and angry and defensive.

    I do not want to hear from Jason here anymore.

  137.  #137alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    haha i was told i do not “use my time constructively” when i was in grade school. hahahaha.

    that’s all i feel like contributing. but i feel fine to follow along.

  138.  #138Jody on July 19, 2009 at 8:17 pm


    I feel attacked, and I feel humiliated by your comments. I am a very sensitive woman, and I do get hurt very easily. But that is not always bad, it’s also a strength, It enables me to relate and feel deep compassion for others, as well as their joy. I am soft, and I’m proud of that!!!!

    Jason S., though I don’t always agree with your opinion, I do respect it. I feel your an asset to this blog, and have observed some wonderful debates between the sexes, and I have learned allot from the dialogue, I feel grateful for each human being on this blog, for opening their inner minds and hearts to share personal thoughts and experiences, and emotion. Life.. let alone love is not always easy. It takes courage to express yourself so openly!!!!

  139.  #139Nikita on July 19, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    Wow! Daria 🙂

  140.  #140Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:19 pm

    Alias Girl I knew you would feel me!! I thought of you making that comment… Yay I feel heard.

    I feel concerned that I’m “doing too much” here and being too mean. I feel triggered. My NV says not to show this side of me and stick to the nice side…

    I want to be healed and integrated so I am now revealing more of me to the world… yay…

    thank goodness for annoying triggering men I guess

  141.  #141Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    Crap… Jody wrote back and she Did feel bad.

    I feel triggered.

    Jody I do not want to make you feel bad. I DO want to work here on myself and being authentic and right now that means saying some things that I feel worried will hurt people.


    I feel confused…

  142.  #142Erika on July 19, 2009 at 8:30 pm

    I feel annoyed also. I feel annoyed that I got so rigid about all this.

    The truth is that I’m not rigid about money. With dating, yes, the man pays. For me, that can be $5 burritos. It’s not the money, it’s the gesture.

    Once a man is committed to me, I’m willing to be very flexible. I’d even be willing to support a guy temporarily if he’s getting both of our businesses to thrive while I’m at work. If he’s committed to making both of us shine and fulfill our full potential.

    But people don’t even get to commitment without first having trust. And I do not trust a man who doesn’t have his own financial trust handled. I also do not trust a man who “talks” about “equality” and then asks women to pay for his plane tickets and meals. That is not equality, and it is not reciprocity.

    And most importantly, it is NOT what I want, and yes I do walk away from that. Easily, with no regret at all. Because I have tons of options, so I choose a man who makes me feel good.

  143.  #143Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    Now I feel triggered by Jody’s comment because I feel like this happens a lot and I hurt people who are sensitive. Or it Used to happen.

    Then again on some level I am very sensitive too. I am just finding this out more recently as I allow myself to feel my feelings.

    My NV says that the implication is that I’m NOT sensitive and I should be careful what I say.

    I feel triggered by my grade school Bossy thing. I shouldn’t express myself because it triggers other people thing.

    I do not want to hurt.

    I do not want to take back my words. I feel triggered that Jody was saying sorry to Justin for something that to me really didn’t seem like her fault.

    I feel glad Jody told me how she feels.

    I feel like I’ve now boxed myself in the Strong and Tough and even Mean box like I always have.

    I feel like I’m flailing around trying to get grounded and get on the right path here.

    I feel concerned my flailing will slap people.

  144.  #144JasonSavage on July 19, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    To continue…

    I like the concept of circular dating… it is what brought me to this blog and enticed me to contribute. What I like about dating “as many men at once as you can fit in your schedule” IS:

    1. You are encouraged to learn a lot about yourself. Every man is a messenger, every man has something to teach you about yourself. That’s empowering.

    2. You are encouraged to trust the process. You’ve exposed yourself to options — you’ve called these men into your life — and now the real fearless MAN will step forward.

    3. You are encouraging to stop looking for Mr. Right either as some mystical soul mate or as an impossibly idealized image. Neither make this pros-vs-cons list of who objectively should come out on top. And, neither, go with which guy feels right.

    4. You are freed from the paradox of choice. Mr. Right is, effectively, the first guy to recognize you as ‘the one’ for him and then to claim you and take you off the market. This is done through actions, and not just words.

    Everyone should practice circular dating for these reasons. Now, what I don’t like is the extent that some women have taken this….

    1. The woman the Terrance described.

    2. The women that all the other men have alluded to. I will tell you this much from personal experience. Every single woman that I have bought a meal for, I have lost as relationship potential. As simple as that. The minute I feel that sense of obligation and expectation creeping in, I feel sick to my stomach. I pay. She’s gone.

    Whenever a woman has bought me a meal, we split the ticket – even with some discussion about EQUALITY – she stayed around as relationship potential.

    3. Daria

    “There have been times where I felt that I could not afford to wine and dine myself. There have been times when I would go out with a man because he was taking me out to eat and not because I was attracted to him. I felt hungry.”

    “I kinda see it as my entitlement as a woman to use men for dinner or what they offer me.”

    “I can’t believe how many free things I missed out on before by not expecting men to give to me.”

    I am not triggered as much as I am amused!

    I can relate! I am no stanger to poverty or hunger. With great effort I became the kind of guy who could experience this dynamic. I allowed women to wine & dine me, take me on trips, pay my rent, and all sorts of gifts. My esteem, my charm, my presence, my personality set up a dynamic where she wanted to impress me and win me over.

    But it was not fun. The sense of obligation swung the opposite direction. I felt I had to be particularly charming, provide great conversation and entertainment value, and I had to be particularly pleasing in bed. I was great company and a competent lover. What was lacking was a lustful, raw attraction… and this sense of entitlement and obligation took its place.

    Nowadays I insist on equality. I said it before:

    Your time equals my time. Your attention equals my attention. Your sex equals my sex. Your orgasm equals my orgasm. And your money equals my money. Your personality equals my personality. Your presence equals my presence.

    4. I know, it is easy to rationalize that your company equals his money, or that he really really *wants* to pay for you, or it’s a man’s job or whatever….

    just realize that I’ve seen both sides.

    Terrance and Daria both walk into a restaurant (not together). Neither brought any money. Who is going to get a free meal?

    With little effort, Daria would have several guys that she’d never met before offering to pay for her dinner. She’d probably FEEL great… popular and noticed!

    With a lot of hustle, Terrence, might be able to charm one person into picking up his tab. He’d probably FEEL terrible… emasulated and weak.

    The point is not specific to these two people. The point is that this is all artificial, arbitrary, and socially constructed. It has nothing to do with biology, or sexual polarity.

    Inequality is unfortunate, but it is a choice. Based on ample experience *from both sides* I have decided that it is a poor way to structure my social life.

    Imagine how empowering it might be to circular date and pay your way at the same time?

    That’s all from me on this thread. I need to prepare my talk for the 21 Convention which will have nothing to do with this topic.


  145.  #145Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    I guess in a way I wanted to help Jody by making her do things my way.

    That is wanting her to lean back and not apologize or say sorry to men for things that aren’t her fault.

    And then I felt impatient with her. I wanted to control her.

    Ideally in my mind Jody would have said:

    Haha Daria what was I thinking. Of course I don’t need to say sorry to Justin for something that I didn’t do.

    She didn’t say that though. I didn’t think she would. I thought she would say just what she said which is that it felt bad.


  146.  #146Jody on July 19, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    It feels awful to be judged.. especially by someone you respect and care about. I’m learning to stick to my boundaries, and put my heart first.

    So we are both learning, and I am grateful for all the help you’ve given me, and for what I’m sure I will learn from you in the future. I respect your feelings and your right to express them. Doesn’t mean I have to like them. Heck.. I don’t like my feelings sometimes!!

  147.  #147Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:41 pm

    I don’t want to rationalize that my company equals his money or that he Wants to pay for me.

    I want a man that rationalizes this FOR ME when I’m feeling insecure.

    Jason maybe you felt bad because you were not in a male role getting paid for. You did not feel comfortable relaxing into your feminity as I would. Thus you felt like you had to provide entertainment, while for me the man paying would free up my energy to SINK into me.

    Just because you don’t like gender roles doesn’t mean they are not

    1. good

    2. powerful

    3. real

    None of what you say sounds much like romance to me.

  148.  #148Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    Jody –

    Thanks! I feel touched … I feel almost like I might cry… awww

    That is so sweet that you said that to me…. aww…

    I feel bad that I made you feel bad.

    Thank YOU so much for being honest and telling me how you feel, and being so compassionate with me right now.

    I think I have communication issues because even in my family the way to change someone or try to improve them is to pick on them or make them feel bad.

  149.  #149Justin on July 19, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    I hope this came across, but the grumble comment was mostly in jest.

    I guess I’m not done talking yet, because here I find myself responding.

    I agree with Jason’s point that I have a hard time paying for a woman who promises simply to be present. In my eyes, that’s no better than prostitution, and the women on this blog are clearly better than that.

    Jody: I’m VERY confused by your response. I don’t understand why you’re apologizing?

    (Get ready for my abrasive masculine to pop out…)

    It really comes down, for me, to the point that indeed, my masculine presence is worth at least as much as your feminine presence, and money has nothing to do with that. I don’t like paying initially, it doesn’t make sense, because I also practice “circular dating.” If I paid for every date or outing I went on, I’d be broke, and I wouldn’t be respecting myself or my lover(s).

    Erika: Me not paying for dates has nothing to do with my finances, but about mutual appreciation.

    Ladies: You want to make me feel like a man? I like feeling appreciated as much as any woman. Seduction is most fulfilling for me when it’s mutual, when desire sets both of our eyes alight with passion. Buying dinner doesn’t cause or deny that flame, so why bother?

    I’m not out to “practice” with women, I’m in it to win it! I’m not going to waste my time and money when there isn’t a flame, and this feeling I’m getting that it’s the woman’s job to receive and giving is left strictly to the men causes me to have a VERY foul taste in my mouth.

    Please understand that I’m enjoying this debate, and I feel my opinions on the various subjects either changing or growing as different viewpoints are expressed. I hope everyone can get as much from it.

  150.  #150JasonSavage on July 19, 2009 at 8:47 pm


    “I feel overwhelmed and angry and defensive. I do not want to hear from Jason here anymore.”

    This is what perpetuates the MYTH that there is a battle between the sexes. Why do you feel threatened by my presence to again ask me to leave?


    You know that I hold you in high regard – as an equal – like it or not. 😛

    There are some personal things coming from you that I simply wish not to address. It’s an old story and I have a sense of urgency to move beyond it. Gettting caught up in explaining and defending is exhausting. That’s all.

    I wish that only two things have become apparent to you:

    I am indeed impeccable with my word…

    And my resourcefulness far surpasses my (current) resources.

    My purpose brings me to Florida, and I have no trouble paying my way. See you there.

  151.  #151Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:48 pm

    I feel pist that to Jason it’s implicit that with little effort I would get someone to pay for my meal…

    I think that would only happen if I were feeling really in my Goddessness and accepting free meals and dates from men all the time.

    Trust me I’ve had a very hard time getting men to pay for my stuff in the past, because I was in equality mode or non – Goddess mode.

    It’s all in the personal vibe.

    Guys assume that women have it easy and it is not so. Only when a woman is in her Goddess vibe does she have it easy.

  152.  #152Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    I feel dizzy. I feel like I’m arguing and I feel drained.

    I feel grateful for my boundaries and for learning them.

    I just now have the guy who used to take me out to eat everyday ask me to drive to him because he’s broke. He started doing this a lot last year. I do not feel like driving to him just because he’s broke.

    I never really got the feeling that he paid for me becaue he liked Me but mroe because he thought it was expected of him. So I didn’t really feel secure and comfortable.

  153.  #153Erika on July 19, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    Jason, you said:

    “2. The women that all the other men have alluded to. I will tell you this much from personal experience. Every single woman that I have bought a meal for, I have lost as relationship potential. As simple as that. The minute I feel that sense of obligation and expectation creeping in, I feel sick to my stomach. I pay. She’s gone.”

    I don’t doubt that this is your experience, but I guarantee you it’s not universal. I am still dating a man who has paid for me most times for two years. I may even marry him. I have had many lasting relationships with chivalrous men who had my full respect and appreciation.

    The sick to your stomach feeling is unresolved issues in YOU. My intuition says unresolved issues about money, giving/receiving, and masculine/feminine polarities, but I’m always willing to be off-base.

    What’s also utterly missing from all this discussion for me to feel understood is a sense of shared reality. The way I move in my world, with a feeling of freedom, is based on my pristine credit record and financial integrity. I am connected into a worldwide network of banks and financial institutions to be able to move freely in the world. I can go basically ANYWHERE I WANT and do almost ANYTHING I WANT, and I love that feeling. A man who’s not bringing that to the table would not be able to move in my social circles with ease and freedom. Every choice I make would be affected. Oh, I guess we can’t go to that restaurant, or go on that trip, or ski this weekend, etc etc.

    I want a man who has the same financial vision that I do, so that we can work together synergistically to create something even more amazing than what we could create separately. I rely on my feelings and intuition to know which men are able to do that. To do that, they need to have their own issues about money and deservingness resolved.

  154.  #154Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    Jason –

    I don’t know how my feelings perpetuate the myth. I feel like arguing with you and I don’t like it.

    I don’t feel threatened by you, I do feel angry turned off and drained.

  155.  #155Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    PS – I did not ask you to leave the first time, so the Again part I don’t know what you’re talking about.

    I don’t really mind you staying now, I just felt like I wanted you to leave in the moment.

  156.  #156Daria on July 19, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    Justin… as women we Circular Date. We expect our men to usually just be dating us.

    So your circular dating going broke thing is not a great argument.

    a Circular Dating woman is not interested in a Circular Dating man. He is not out to claim her because he is invested in other women.

  157.  #157Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:01 pm

    I feel dizzy.

    I feel grateful for the outlet of my male thinking energy here.

    I am making a note to practice being even MORE in my feelings… maybe refrain from expressing thoughts and just stick to short feelings…

    that might feel interesting… and fun.

  158.  #158JasonSavage on July 19, 2009 at 9:01 pm

    I am going because I have important places to put my attention and time.

    Two things to think about:

    1) Simply consider the imput from the “desperately lonely” men that commented… read the comments and see the commonality… then try to FEEL why most of them came and commented and did not stick around…

    2) Consider for a moment that the entire concept of masculinity and femininity, gender roles, etc… IS FEMININE. Really FEEL into that one. If logic catches you, it is a mindfuck… 😉

  159.  #159Erika on July 19, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    I share Daria’s turned off and drained feelings. I feel some regret that my self-protective feelings have come off as “rigid.” I feel regret that people reading my comments here do not know the full context of this conversation between me and JS.

    I want to relax and enjoy my time in Orlando, so I certainly hope this is not going to be an issue there. I hope I don’t have to set ridiculously rigid boundaries while I’m there.

  160.  #160alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 9:05 pm

    yes daria i feel you. 🙂 it was also written on my report card that “alias girl has trouble accepting a decision she doesn not agree with” by some d*cka** teacher who would punish me unfairly. what a d*ck. it was true though. i do have trouble accepting some random punish ment that is unfair. just ask my boss. hehe.

    but the first one wasn’t true. i use my time very constructively. i just wasn’t doing what they thought i should be doing with my free time. like homework. yuh.

    anyway what anyone else thinks of me is none of my business.

  161.  #161Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:10 pm

    HA! Jason I feel inspired!! The entire concept of gender roles is FEMININE!!! you are right!


    No wonder before Rori I was so into equality. I was very into my boy energy.

    Wow thank you thank you thank you. That would also explain why many guys “don’t get it” when it comes to the gender roles thing. You guys are in your masculine! Duh!

    this must be why Rori says don’t try to explain, no need to even bring it up.

    As far as the desperately lonely men. I cannot FEEL Why they did something. I only feel myself. I feel completely indifferent.
    Not all men are super duper dating potential. Desperately lonely sounds like he has work to do.

    BTW I notice that a lot of men Did stick around.. in fact more and more seem to be coming. There are more man comments than woman comments lately. Geez.

    I actually like that there are more man comments. And now that I think about it, I expect guys here to speak up against always paying and etc… its a classic. It’s controversial, and it’s good for the woman.

    Is it good for the man… to some extent yes. It seems more tricky for a man to find a balance. Generally I would advise my male friends not to go all out unless it was a woman they really cared about that they felt respected by. I notice that they often feel good about themselves when they can go all out for a woman.

    And sometimes when they’re broke it feels annoying that they don’t want to go out at all!

  162.  #162Jody on July 19, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    I apologized for calling you Jason. I guess I looked at it as disrespectful, A name to me is personal, it identifies the essence of who you are. And I strongly feel each human being deserves respect.. I do feel glad I didn’t offend you.

    Honestly this money thing.. is just plan aggravating to me. I’ve had money, I’ve lived without money, and to be very honest, living without self love, and self worth is much worse than figuring out who should pay for dinner. Really who doesn’t like to be spoiled, with dinner, flowers, a sweet touch, complements, a note, a text, and appreciation, male or female. Last night I let the man pay for everything, I even stopped myself several times from reaching for my wallet, or opening my mouth. I’m not good at receiving, I’m good at giving. So at the end of the night I left a note in his car, an I owe u.. It stated How wonderful it felt to be spoiled by such a giving man, and how deeply I appreciated and valued his attention, I dabbed perfume on it, and signed my name. So I guess i did lean forward.

    Daria… I do care for you, if I didn’t my feelings wouldn’t have been hurt.. But don’t cry, smile!! it’s a gift when you can touch someone’s heart with your words!!! smile!!!

  163.  #163Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:18 pm

    Jody what a misunderstanding!!

    I thought your Jason comment was to Jason Miller, and your apology to Justin was just because he said he was going to sit out.

    And you were really apologizing because you had called him the wrong name.

    OMGosh… well of course you apologized.

    I feel glad you weren’t apologizing for him sitting out.

    And now I feel foolish and like I jumped the gun getting triggered by your comment, when in reality you meant something totally different.


  164.  #164Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:19 pm

    Jody – I am smiling. Thank you. I feel glad you care for me and I care for you too!!!

  165.  #165Erika on July 19, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    Yeah, for me it doesn’t feel like this discussion is about money anymore.

    It feels like communication gone horribly awry. Communication that feels awful.

    I contrast this to the guy who playfully teases me about the chivalry thing and then pays for meals because he knows it matters to me.

    With that guy, I ended up paying for other things, and it did come out about equal. But I felt cherished and loved. With that guy, I was willing to talk about all kinds of financial options because I felt basic trust.

    In this situation, I feel like the guy just wants to be “right” and doesn’t see my reality at all. I feel like he wants to avoid his own discomfort and unresolved feelings about money and deservingness, so he covers it up with clever arguments.

  166.  #166Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    Ps – Jody your parfume note sounds more like giving back than leaning forward. Beautiful!

  167.  #167alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    i feel interested to have men pay. i feel ok even if the man does not have a lot of money then we just scale it down but if we get sodas, or ice cream or whatever on our walk through the park. then he pays.

    how do i express this? hmmm. i’ll have to scroll back up and revisit the language rori used.

    i used to not want the guy to think i was using him so i would offer to pay and even before that i would pay half. ick. ick. i feel ick.

    it’s none of my business what that man thinks about me. it matters how i FEEL about myself. it matters to me how i treat people. i don’t want to pay. i feel i am treating a man very good to not pay. i feel way more goddessey. i feel lucky him. and if he’s yummy, i feel lucky me. but i don’t feel good to open my wallet. maybe when welre partners and it’s all kind of pooled together. not before then.

    i feel so nervous to be true to myself on this. but i feel confident i’l stumble through it just as i have all my other new goddessey ways of being. some men will just not get to date me if they can’t afford a soda. i feel very ok about this. i do not feel worried i am letting some great catch get away. if some guy dug me he would want to give me the moon. please. aand a guy’s gonna gripe about a soda. next.

  168.  #168Jody on July 19, 2009 at 9:25 pm

    It did sound like that, I have so much mind stuff going on!! lol!! On the East coast, so goodnight all!! must get some sleep before work, in case I need to buy a man dinner!! lol!!

  169.  #169Erika on July 19, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    I do also feel amused that AG was triggered when she thought Terrance was ignoring her. I feel a sense of empathy from seeing that.

    I actually feel tons of good will toward AG right now. I feel like each of us is just here doing the best we can in the moment, and I kinda find all of it beautiful.

    Even the ignoring, lol 😉

  170.  #170Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:27 pm

    Alias girl I so agree… I used to not want a man to think I was using him so I would pay.

    I also feel like I am treating him well by Not paying. I feel way more Goddessy.

    Thank you Alias girl. What you said feels so beautiful it feels like clear water brook in here… with sparkly refreshing bubbling and vulnerable little brook water.

  171.  #171JasonSavage on July 19, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    I’m going to clarify for you Daria… some people will find this compelling….

    1) Consider for a moment that the entire concept of NAMING things such as masculinity and femininity, or DEFINING roles as either a masculine or feminine… WAS INVENTED BY WOMEN.

    2) Similarly, SEDUCTION was invented by women.

  172.  #172Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    I don’t remember asking for clarification.

    I feel incredulous. Can you give me the name(s) of the women who invented these concepts and have them e-mail me? I would feel Very curious to speak to them directly

    I really would like the name of the women who invented Seduction too.

    Did you know arguing was invented by men? As was money?

  173.  #173Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    Also. Like I said before, the idea of polarities and seduction being feminine makes a lot of sense.

    That would explain why when I was all about equality and no gender roles I was in boy energy.

    That actually helped me a LOT to get clear on what was going on.

    It would also explain the seduction power and mystery of the feminine Goddess.

  174.  #174alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 9:38 pm

    dog park, beach, bookstore, frisbee (i’l’ suppy frisbee!). kite flying (i’ll supply kite!), just walking around, biking, rollerblading, hiking, homemade sandwiches/picnic, crashing weddings, sneaking into fancy hotels to go swimming, listening to music in the car, driving somewhere with a view,
    playing a board game, ouja board (hahahaha kidding), staring contests (;) daria), free city concerts or events, bookfairs,

    musuem, ballgame, putput, botanical gardens,

    meals, movie nights,


  175.  #175Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:40 pm


    Why have I never snuck in a fancy hotel to go Swimming. This is a must do!!

  176.  #176Daria on July 19, 2009 at 9:41 pm

    I feel guilty Jason. I feel flattered that you’re addressing me. a lot. hehe.

  177.  #177alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    aw thanks daria. i feel really softened and kind of “got”. i feel so tocuhed to read that.

    so i am going to practice rori’s speech without scrolling up.

    i am feeling old fashioned these days. i don’t care what we do, i don’t need fancy or expensive nut i don’t feel good paying for stuff around dating.

    dang i forgot the rest.

    something about i feel happy about whatever you choose to do. i just feel good for us to get to know each other.


    i’ll have to study it some more.

    babysteps. i feel i may be ready finally to step away from my online dating site and TO LEAVE THE HOUSE! heheh. finally some real dates are a comin’ my way.

  178.  #178Erika on July 19, 2009 at 9:48 pm

    I feel amused by Daria’s comments.

    I feel incredulous that Jason has not yet realized that logic is getting him nowhere good in this discussion.

    Logic and seduction are two totally different things.

    Seduction is emotional, and it often requires letting go of one’s “strategies.” And being embodied in pure connection. Then the strategies figure themselves out.

    Right now, I’m not feeling any connection because I’m not feeling any empathy from you. None. Zero. I feel you want to be right and/or obtain a certain outcome and that you don’t give a rat’s ass how I feel.

    It’s true that Rori talks about the man claiming the woman. But this in no way takes away her choice. The man and the woman still choose each other, because in order to be claimed, the woman must say yes. And a goddessy feminine woman only says yes if it FEELS GOOD.

    Logic does not feel good.

  179.  #179Tina on July 19, 2009 at 9:53 pm

    I would like to ask the men in here, if they feel for a woman to know the mans sexual fantasies are important in long term relationship building?.

  180.  #180tinque on July 19, 2009 at 9:58 pm

    This “discussion” is not feeling good at all, not for awhile. I’ve been following it all day on and off. It’s seems like it’s going round and round in circles.
    Well I’m just going to change the subject for a bit because I’m feeling very sorry for myself, very sad, very lonely, and I apologize ahead of time if this sounds too boohoo and trite or maybe just get over yourself to some, but I’m alone for the next month and a bit, and all I feel right now is a big, dark void in my house and in my bed but not so much in my heart.
    Let me explain. Unexpectedly and suddenly we are moving to Connecticut for a year maybe more. K left this AM by aeroplane. I can’t leave until the 12th, and I’m driving cross country with the animals, so it will be another week or so more. I miss him terribly already though we just had phone sex. I have to say that was fun and relieved some of the ache.
    That’s all. Back to topic though it’s been quite triggering at times.

  181.  #181Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    Jasonsavage you savage beast lol. do you feel you can trust a woman to know your deepest sexual fantasies?. Would you share them?. even if it includes mom and aprons?.

  182.  #182Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:03 pm

    Tinque, you can play phone sex operator with him lol. Group hug for tinque!

  183.  #183tinque on July 19, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    silly girl….:) love it

  184.  #184tinque on July 19, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    oh and many thanks for the hugs, can’t have too many of those

  185.  #185Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    I wouldnt recommend doing this on a first date after arguing who is paying the bill. So dudes what you think?.

  186.  #186Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    *feel I mean

  187.  #187Daria on July 19, 2009 at 10:18 pm

    Hey Tina – we’re supposed to ask guys what they Think

    so no correction needed.

    I’m feeling very touchy and kinda down right now.

  188.  #188Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:20 pm

    some are just pure fantasy, by no means am I suggesting that I would don a rubber suit and spank you while calling you a bad boy but you get my drift.

  189.  #189JasonSavage on July 19, 2009 at 10:21 pm

    LOL, Daria!

    I am pretty sure men invinted money to impress women, and women invented arguing right after that!

    I feel delighted by AG’s list. Sneeking into hotel pools is one of my favorite things! Action dates rule!

    And massage!

  190.  #190Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    oh right daria. What you feeling down about?

  191.  #191Erika on July 19, 2009 at 10:28 pm

    I feel strong intuition for Jason to feel into the sadness. Deep into it. To get out of head about all this stuff. I feel a heart twinge, like there is really deep sad there.

    I feel a lot of head energy, like he’s trying to “figure me out.” It feels exhausting and like my head is in a vice.

    Each time I tune into Jason’s energy, I end up in my head, whereas with another man, I always end up in my heart, feeling warm and loved.

    Take my input with a grain of salt, but I helped a man in seminar feel into his sadness today, and he was finally able to connect with me. Before that, I felt nothing. No connection whatsoever.

  192.  #192Justin on July 19, 2009 at 10:29 pm

    Oddly, if I may step out of my masculine for just a second, I feel touchy too. I’m worn from the arguing, as much as I usually enjoy it. I mean, there’s been a huge battle of the sexes wiped all across this place, and I think we all really want the war to end so we can get back to loving on each other. (Well, some more than others…)

    I frankly would be impressed if a woman asked me about my fantasies on a first date without things getting awkward. Most of my fantasies revolve around gratuitous amounts of masculine energy flowing from me with my partner surrendering fully to me. Light bondage, role-play, things like that.

  193.  #193Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    daria, I thought sex was a feeling for men, no?. i have a lot to learn.

  194.  #194Daria on July 19, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    I was feeling down maybe from overblogging from the head.

    Now I feel better after laughing at the how to impress a Romanian girl youtube episode

  195.  #195Daria on July 19, 2009 at 10:33 pm

    Tina hmm…I feel confused…

    I felt kinda like a meddler saying anything about it… but I really liked your initial comment to Jason, it felt like it really changed the energy around here!

  196.  #196Daria on July 19, 2009 at 10:35 pm

    Oooh Jason that feels really intriguing!

    Tell us more about the light bondage, role playing stuff..

  197.  #197alias girl on July 19, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    tina i feel YES is the answer for me on that question. i feel a person’s sexuality and what triggers it is kind of important. for me. I would want the man to know mine. I would want to know his.

    aw tinque. my heart feels sad for you. that must be so difficult and lonely. 🙁

    an entire month is a long time. can’t you leave now with the animals? then maybe fly back for a day or two together and take care of other details?

    logic battles are horrendous for a goddess. at least for aliasgirl goddess. I have been in logic battles all week with my employer and their big corporate legal team. i mean in some ways it can be fun esp when one is “winning” on such an issue as Injustice and Bullying and invasion of privacy etc. But who wants to “win” on something like —-i feel more goddessey when a man wants to please me and give me the moon. or at the very least, buy my soda.

    logic battles feel icky to me.

  198.  #198Daria on July 19, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    Oops… I meant Justin. Haha… I FELT surprised and relieved that Jason was gonna say he wants the war to be over…

    but its Justin…

    Justin tell us more!! hehehe

  199.  #199Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    Thanks Justin, I’m not suprised that you think its cool to talk about this stuff on a first date lol. I’m a lights off , under the sheets kinda girl but yeah, what I mean by asking you guys this question is this, do you think it plays an important part in determining whether or not you “claim” this girl and eventually marry?. its not the whole package I suppose. Just how important is it, or just simply the fact that she knows these “fantasies” that really turn you on. Kinda like a (can she handle it?) its a fantasy not reality this doenst mean you really want her to sleep with your best friend, her best friend, your mom or whoever and whatever your fantisizing about. The usual run of the mill “normal” fantasy stuff. I understand that some men say, want to really wear their girlfriends underwear from time to time so this fantasy becomes reality for them and if they can that then yes they are marriage , forever and ever material.

  200.  #200Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    Im trying to type and formulate a thought in my head lol this hurts haha so if doesnt make sense then fck it nevermind.

  201.  #201Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    daria your not meddling

  202.  #202Justin on July 19, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    My first instinct is to make a joke about role play, partly because I’m watching the Romanian youtube video, and now I’m feeling like making European political jokes…

    Role play: I’m Germany and she’s France, and she surrenders to me! (Says the man learning French…)

    Ok, that aside…

    I actually bought an iron 4 post bed, so I have a place for handcuffs. I also have a beanie that’s very long, so it makes for a comfortable blindfold. I love depriving my lover of her sense of sight, so that each stroke I make is a surprise, and it’s like the first time she’s ever been touched. I’ll use different things to create a new and varied tactile experience until she’s begging for me to be in her. I like to tease a bit more, but we always end up very satisfied.

    As for the real role plays, I’ve not done too many, but I really liked it when a girlfriend dressed up in light Arabian garb and danced around and showed herself off to me. I loved watching her feel beautiful, even as I got visibly turned on. The REALLY fun part was that she had the anti-theft tag on the part that went over her mouth, so I had to pull that off before we started, so I felt extra manly even before we began.

    I’ve never done but always liked the idea of having my lover at a bar and picking her up like we’re strangers, and doing very inappropriate things where we may get caught. (I love doing things like that!)

    Get the idea?

  203.  #203Justin on July 19, 2009 at 10:53 pm

    Tina: In my ideal relationship, we’d both be very aware of each other’s fantasies, and do our best to bring them to life for each other in a safe way.

    I’ve never really had any cross dressing fantasies or anything radical, but I’ve been with women who’ve had some that might be considered “out there.” More important, for me, than knowing each other’s fantasies is the trust and lack of judgement that has to be present in order to share our deepest secrets.

  204.  #204Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:55 pm

    so justin, after all the dating and romancing and the dinners you are paying for, do you think you would “fall in love” with a girl like this or just keep it all in your head?.

  205.  #205Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    meaning if you just say talked about it while being turned on by just the fantasy of it.

  206.  #206Tina on July 19, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    Women are not usually ( i dont speak for all women) just from what I know, they are not usually forthcoming with fantasies, women like to be shown love through different ways, me thinks?

  207.  #207Tina on July 19, 2009 at 11:02 pm

    trust and lack of judgement yes, I hear you. so in the meantime what are you doing, how do you set your standards for finding “the one”

  208.  #208Tina on July 19, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    I mean you cant say to a woman on a first date, are ya into light bondage? I suppose some do , I dont know lol. So jasonsavage whats your take on this?.

  209.  #209Justin on July 19, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    Here’s my thing:

    If I have the level of trust required to discuss each other’s fantasies, and we’ve dated for any significant amount of time (3 dates, let’s say), and yet nothing sexual is happening between us, I’m going to end it. For me, sex isn’t a conquest, it’s a display of affection. If I’m willing to open up and she’s willing to open up, but she’s not willing to display that affection, I’m going to feel rejected and leave.

  210.  #210Justin on July 19, 2009 at 11:14 pm

    The girl for me is going to have the following qualities: She’s smart, (I love discussions like this, where we can passionately argue just to make up, and feel like we’ve learned a new way of thinking in the process) comfortable with her sexuality, loves both of her parents, (Google David Shade if you don’t know why) knows how to be strong in her feminine, and most importantly, pushes me LOVINGLY to be a better man while I push her to be a better woman.

  211.  #211JasonSavage on July 19, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    I started to feel deeper into this topic. To embrace my shadow. I found myself imagining a scenario where I was rich and buying the most beautiful hookers. Three or four at a time. It starts to feel like a harem. Despite my imagination and stamina, I get the feeling they are just there because they are getting paid. My shadow is fine with that. I still feel excited. I feel awakened!

  212.  #212Tina on July 19, 2009 at 11:22 pm

    hm, ok so you think 3 dates is enough time to determine whether or not you trust her enough to discuss sexual fantasies, ok. Jason you have a blog telling men how to be better men COME ON!

  213.  #213Daria on July 19, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    aww Jason that is cute and feels amusing. just a little triggering

    Justin I feel triggered about the loves both parents thing without googling anyone. Some people have had abusive families you know. I feel angry.

  214.  #214Simply Shannon on July 19, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    I really do feel gratitude for the equality/money/dating discussion and for ALL of those who have participated and shared. It has opened my eyes to something I never even considered. Unfortunately I feel choked by opinions and as a human being, I do not appreciate condescension or labels. I simply don’t want that kind of “equal” relationship. Thank you but no thank you.

    Tinque: Thank you for the distraction! I’m right there with you. Today has been tantrum filled (kids, not me – LOL!), and my man has been busy working and spending time with his own kids. I feel sorry for myself and lonely. A good orgasm helped but now I can’t sleep! 🙂 (((HUGS))) I hope the move to CT is quick and easy!

    Tina: WAHOO! Thank you for putting fantasy thoughts in my head right before I go to sleep! Unfortunately I have got to go to bed now (2am here – Monday morning is going to suck). More comments in the morning!

    Justin: I would like to point out the irony…” Most of my fantasies revolve around gratuitous amounts of masculine energy flowing from me with my partner surrendering fully to me.” Remind me again whose “side” you’re on? 😉

  215.  #215Daria on July 19, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    I googled David Shade and found a delightful picture of female anatomy that I intend to show to someone i know

  216.  #216Tina on July 19, 2009 at 11:33 pm

    Whatever Jason lol, your fantasy I mean the really dirty naughty ones are probibly more like sniffing womens panties or something like that. My ‘friend” says that one of her boyfriends says ” I want my mommy” when she gets feels anger towards him – she didnt name names just a long time ago and while he was “going down on her” his fantasy included being penetrated analy by a man but he never in reality wanted that so who knows?

  217.  #217Terrance Thames on July 19, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    Jody- I wanted to chime in before I started working to thank you for your words. I feel speechless that you wrote them! 🙂 That is definitely how to make someone feel like a god!

  218.  #218Tina on July 19, 2009 at 11:37 pm

    lol daria what is that lol, just kidding funny though

  219.  #219Daria on July 19, 2009 at 11:38 pm

    I feel so triggered by Justin’s comment about wanting a woman who loves both of her parents. I think it like categorizes people as like someone can’t heal from the past or soemthing.

    I feel so angry I would agree to like gang up on Justin and beat him with a bat right now.

  220.  #220Daria on July 19, 2009 at 11:39 pm

    Tina – exactly… I’m wondering if the person I will show it to will say the same! lol

    jk tho but this is the first one that showed 2 “deep spots” and I never saw that before.

    I feel very glad I saw it.

  221.  #221Justin on July 19, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    Daria: It’s not simply David Shade’s opinion that causes the parent’s rule. I’m VERY close with my family, my parents are still together, and that’s a huge part of my life. People who don’t have that have a harder time connecting with me, and I them, because they can’t or simply don’t understand that bond.

    I’ve tried dating women who grew up in single families, or were abused, but I never felt very fulfilled by the relationship. I love them to this day, but my experience has lead me to screen them out of possible relationships.

    Also, yes, sometimes men need a road map when they enter… umm… “foreign land.” 😉

    Shannon: I realize your comment to me is in jest, but I want to point out that the idea of taking sides here is all wrong. I agree that cultivating our respective energies leads to greater fulfillment in both sexes, I simply occasionally disagree on how that manifests.

  222.  #222Justin on July 19, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    And I’m changing my name! From now on, I’m Fernando! Too many guys with “J” names on here!

  223.  #223Daria on July 19, 2009 at 11:47 pm

    Justin that feels so judgemental and cruel.

    I feel disconnected from of you. I would not want to date a man who hold such screens for human beings.

  224.  #224Fernando on July 19, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    I doubt I can change your mind Daria. This is not a judgement thing at all. I’m good friends with people who have been abused, in fact my roommate has had so many things in his life screwed up he should have been put in the loony bin a long time ago. I have no problem with people who were victims of abuse. It’s simply a pattern I’ve noticed, that people who I date that were victims tended to end poorly, and we both end up hurt. I don’t want that in my life, or in anyone else’s, and I play it better safe than sorry. It’s no disrespect or lack of love, rather it’s because of my respect and love for people that can survive through that that causes me to avoid that dynamic.

  225.  #225alias girl on July 20, 2009 at 12:31 am

    i feel curious. what will happen tomorrow for me? i feel curious. i do not feel afraid in this moment. i feel dolphin spirits jumping around in my frontal lobe and in my chest. i feel very giggly to think of them. i feel pleased my sense of humor is returning and avaiable to me in evermore situations. i feel life is a great game to be played with voracious appetite.

    i feel connected. i feel grateful.

    thank you for MY BLISSFUL OUTCOME. 🙂 thank you.

  226.  #226Daria on July 20, 2009 at 12:42 am


    Dolphin Spirits I invite you! It’s time to be marine.

  227.  #227Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 6:19 am

    Wow! Too much happened over the weekend for me to chime in now, but I do want to address one comment that I think was for me (not sure though because a new paragraph started and the one right before that was a huge compliment….lol)

    db: You said…

    “I feel mistrustful of posts–by males or females– that feel like they are about the poster ‘being right,’ advancing an agenda, or trying to score rhetorical points with the judges. It doesn’t seem like a great recipe for happiness to me and it’s hard to know whether or not they are being genuine or manipulating people’s emotions for their own ends.”

    I just want to take a minute to assure you that wasn’t my intent. I don’t post to be right or to advance an agenda or to score points and I certainly would NEVER attempt to manipulate the emotions of others. I do sometimes post to get people to think about things from another point of view, sometimes to subtly offer my own ideas (I learned that not many here are happy with me when I use the “tell it like it is” attitude that I like so much so I’m working on subtle as much as possible) and sometimes, as in this case, my posts are about learning more.

    My questions to Rori were to ask for further teaching on an area that she didn’t address in her original post or in her comments to others. That area is when a woman CAN afford and WANTS to help out (or take care of) some of the more expensive dates. I understand the free and cheap stuff and know we all have different opinions on those things. But…the expensive stuff is a part of my life. My post wasn’t about asking her to change my view on it but more about me wanting to know what her position is. I’m open to learning but also, even if I’m not so much going to “learn” anything, I do so very much enjoy seeing what works for someone else and how they would guide others in that situation.

    Mute point though because the part of dating that really can get very expensive looks like it isn’t going to be addressed by Rori. And my big question (the one I really wanted her to talk about) was “do we, as women, give up the fancy restaurants and theater tickets if our men can’t afford them, do we go alone (even though we would much rather share those experiences with our love), or do we not stay with our current loves and find a man more financially able to take care of our tastes?”

    Simply curious about how she feels and what she teaches along that line.

    Much Love,

  228.  #228Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 6:22 am

    Ummm…did I say “mute point”???? OMG! It’s too early!!!!!!!!!!! Need more coffeee!!!!!!!!!! Someone, pleaswe explain…why did that wine taste so damn good last night???

  229.  #229Simply Shannon on July 20, 2009 at 7:37 am

    Fernando 🙂 : Your fantasy is actually mine (in reverse as *I* want to surrender my control). I really was kidding. And you’re right (even if I feel annoyed that you think my comment was “all wrong”). There are no sides here. I’ve felt a good mix of discussion points from both men and women, but last night felt a lot more polarized, re: boys vs. girls or “right” vs. “wrong”. I don’t completely agree or disagree with anyone’s point of view. Now that I’ve worked through my initial triggers, I feel intrigued and receptive to it all. I’m much more aware of the issue and feel softer towards men because I know they wrestle with this and yet thankfully still pursue women. To change the subject, I am curious about your comment on leaving if you have three dates and no sex. Is that what you meant? What are your reasons for leaving? I’m affectionate with my dates but I’ve learned the hard way that I need to wait for penetration until we’re exclusive.

    Mercedes: I’m also interested in Rori’s take on the “expensive” stuff. Trips in particular are an issue for me as I love going to the beach as much as possible. My goal since my divorce has been to go once a month and so far I’m WAY above that goal. Woohoo! And due to the kid factor, I have to plan things in advance. I don’t want to wait for an invitation because it makes me happy to go. Do I continue to plan trips and invite him to come along or just go with my girlfriends or by myself?

    I feel weary this morning. I feel so tired about a lot of things. In Rori’s ebook, she talks about the murderous rage that can dwell inside. I started feeling that last night but I feel SCARED to let that monster out. Ugh. Welcome to square one…again.


  230.  #230Fernando on July 20, 2009 at 8:04 am

    I don’t actually need intercourse within 3 dates. Part of that whole scenario is that the girl I’m dating and I have opened up to each other very much. Actually, if that hasn’t happened in 3 dates, it’s probably not going to work…

    I’m having a hard time answering this question, because the scenario doesn’t come up. Either we hit it off initially and we are open to each other and sexual very quickly, or we don’t so we aren’t.

    I’ve had very few girls who wanted to wait, for various reasons, but the one that comes quickest to mine waited for religious reasons. It’s clear that she’s dying to let herself go, but the rules of her religion overwhelm her with guilt, so she doesn’t. It’s frustrating to watch and feel and be in that situation, and it’s left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

    However, I’ve also had a female friend who didn’t wait, so she ended up with a bunch of guys who just used her. If that seems to be a common problem, I’d recommend waiting, so you can be sure the guy’s more invested and will appreciate you for more than what’s between your legs.

    I suppose I see both sides of the argument, but it seems to me that if you’re a strong, confident woman who doesn’t have a problem meeting extraordinary men, you’re only doing you and your lovers a disservice by waiting. If you keep ending up with assholes, maybe you should follow Rori’s rules. 🙂

  231.  #231Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 9:12 am

    Ok…I was able to get through most of the comments and this is how I can best explain what this issue is/has been like for me:

    For me, all of this is about creating a balance that is comfortable for both people. If I’m dating a man who DOESN’T like to pay for everything, I’ll pay for my part and be open to whether or not the rest of him is something I can connect with. If I’m dating a man who DOES like to pay for everything, I’ll allow that and still stay open to the rest of him because there could be other things (good or bad) that help me know whether or not he’s “the one”. I will NOT knock a man off my list of potentials simply because he doesn’t pay…there is so much more I want to know about him. That particular situation is not a “deal breaker” for me.

    With my boyfriend, I paid for my share for a long time…had I closed my mind to that, I would have lost him. He does VERY well for himself and now pays for everything when we go out on dates, but I gained his repsect that way by not “expecting” him (simply because he’s a man) to pay my way. Now…I have what a lot of women seem to want…but we (my J and I) had to do that slowly. That’s what worked for US…it’s not what works for everyone.

    I hate the thought of hearing that something is how we should be and we should NEVER deviate from that and then we’ll find the man we want. I say…experiment…experiment with paying…experiment with leaning forward a little sometimes…experiment with cooking dinner once in a while. I don’t know until I really spend quality time with a man, what turns him on. What he likes. What makes him tick. And the same goes for the man. If I’m willing to experiment to see what makes him interested, I hope that he is willing to experiment with me as well (experiement with paying for dinner…experiment with letting me take the lead sometimes…experiment with not expecting me to cook you dinner).

    So…as long as I’m not crossing my own boundaries, I think it’s cool to try new ways of being and see how the guy feels about me and how I feel about him…and I think it’s VERY sexy and cool to meet a man who doesn’t have a “list of qualifications” that I need to conform to in order to be considered for dates two or three. Just being open and making mental notes and seeing how we feel about each other and seeing if a connection is showing up is WAY more important and sexier to me than having a list and checking off items and then…oops…he/she doesn’t do that one little thing…Well…they lose.

    Some (most) of the men here want an equal relationship and truly believe it’s possible. That’s cool for them. I encourage them to keep looking for it because I believe we ALL deserve to find that perfect partner for us and I don’t believe we all have to want the same thing in order for that to happen. I honestly believe their views are based on their own experiences and that’s why they have a “list of qualifications” that women must conform to in order to get a second or third date and also why this money issue is so important to them (after all, I have my own experiences that cause me to have issues that are important to me as well). I firmly believe some woman someday is going to grab ahold of their hearts and they’re not going to know what hit them. At that point…list out the window and love in their lives. They’ll then open their minds and hearts to what a real relationship can be all about and they’ll find a balance that is perfect for them as well as their partner. It happens anytime we find love (me included)…everything I thought was so incredibly important to me just kind of flew away because words and lists could not describe what happened with J and me. It’s a perfect balance and flow and it’s right for us…together…the two of us…but probably not what everyone wants (heck…it wasn’t what WE wanted until we found each other…and we never would have believed we could love someone so much).

    I believe the right partner for each of us will be able to open our hearts in ways we never dreamed possible and at that point, the real deal-breakers will separate themselves from the superficial ones.

    Much Love,

  232.  #232DocK on July 20, 2009 at 9:15 am

    I feel awkward jumping back onto this blog but Mercedes’ reappearance gives me courage…. : )

    I found Rori’s tools (and programs by others as well) because I want to be the best partner I can be in a relationship. I cannot control anyone else, just me.

    Having said that, I have my own life experiences and values and I enjoy trying out the various tools but also experimenting with them.

    I grew up very poor so whoever had money, paid, male or female. I know that translated into dating. I never assumed a man would pay but it didn’t hurt me in relationships. Maybe I had a lot of other ways of leaning back and receiving. However, I get what Rori says that women who give too much have to do a 180 and try to receive in all ways.

    I also get what some of the men say about”appreciation” or lack of it when they pay. I always express how grateful I feel when people (not just men I am dating) do things for me. It is that feeling of doing for someone and being taken for granted that feels icky – for anyone.

    then there is also feeling compassion and being considerate. Some fantastic guys make life choices – art, music, teaching – that don’t translate into well-paying jobs. As Rori suggests, in these situations, a woman should find ways to get to know a guy like this that might be fantastic by using the creative dating ideas of hers.

    I think some of this comes down to the fact that there are some women that really need to learn to lean wayyyy back and follow the “who pays” rule to a T and then there are some that Rori describes as the rock star chick who has the confident siren thing going so strongly that everything seems to work for her (NOT saying that’s ME). You decide.

    As for the guys, I feel confident that a man knows a woman that is a “user” from the others. I find that whole argument interesting anyway. Guys get offended when a woman goes after a guy because he has money or is some ugly rock star – they say it is “shallow” yet these same guys ENVY the rock stars and rich guys for getting all the “hot chicks.” apparently it is OK for the rich guys to be shallow and only care that the women are beautiful but not whether or not they contribute anything else of value to this world but not OK for the women to be shallow. to each his own. Again, you decide.

    As for equality? I feel there are still many differences in this world that require chivalrous behaviour of men towards women and it is going to be a long time before that will change.

  233.  #233Jason Miller on July 20, 2009 at 9:39 am

    Jason Miller here. How’s everybody feeling? (Don’t answer that!) 🙂 This thread’s been spinning wildly out of control!!

    Erika’s earlier point is well-taken. We cannot reason or debate the cause of emotional responses at a cultural level. In fact, this modern world complicates it exponentially by mixing all the traditional cultures up into one mass heterogeneous culture. And isn’t that the fundamental problem? In dating we get to know a person from no information. But when we don’t have common cultural rules, we are flying blind. Each dating pair is its own two micro-cultures coming together. The rules and roles can be quite different causing conflict in a pairing that otherwise might be a good one.

    So the issue of paying on dates is really the first potential cultural conflict a couple must face. My solution as a man is just to be in tune with how it feels and act accordingly. If I’m inspired to pay, I will. If not, I won’t. Really, this is only a gut check to confirm whether or not I’m into that woman or not. And so if I’m feeling genuinely inspired, I would hope the woman is as well and we would have some nice chemistry together.

  234.  #234Beth Banning on July 20, 2009 at 9:39 am

    Great post! I think this phenomenon is a by-product of evolution. Men are “defined” by what they own; women are “defined” by how many children they can bear.

  235.  #235Jason Miller on July 20, 2009 at 9:46 am

    Jason Miller here again.

    As for Circular Dating, I understand this is a defense against getting stuck with a man who won’t commit to marriage. Isn’t all this based on the false belief that men don’t want to be married too? I want to be married someday. Can’t women just screen better for men like me? Or are Circular Daters typically only attracted to men who can’t commit so they need a structure to prevent disappointment?

    Is it even possible to get to know a man well enough to marry him without a 2-3 year monogamous relationship beforehand? The rule of thumb in psychology is that it takes that long to finally see your partner for who he/she is rather than the fantasy you’ve pictured for him/her. In this age of the 50% divorce rate, doesn’t it make more sense to really get to know the person first?

    Why am I making my point only in questions? 🙂

  236.  #236tinque on July 20, 2009 at 10:06 am

    “I believe the right partner for each of us will be able to open our hearts in ways we never dreamed possible and at that point, the real deal-breakers will separate themselves from the superficial ones.”
    Amen to this Mercedes. It was just what I was about to post, but you got there first.
    I would not have the amazing relationship I have with my K, the love of my life, the man who has given me and continues to gives me orgasms I never dreamed possible and many other things too, if I had stuck to a rigid set of rules or qualifications. xxoo

  237.  #237tinque on July 20, 2009 at 10:14 am

    Jason Miller – I can only speak for me, but it has been my experience (by the way I have never circular dated) that when I met “the one” I knew right away, but and this is a BIG but, it still took three years to really know each other, and we have lived together almost from the beginning (after five months, a little soon, but there is a story around this, not relevant here). It takes a long time, in my opinion 2-3 years, for the defenses to melt away and the real you or me to emerge. This is a time where trust becomes established as those deep dark secrets make their little faces known. This is the time where true intimacy grows between two people, where real love blossoms, beyond the lust, and in my case the lust has grown too. So there you have it.

  238.  #238Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Jason Miller: I agree with Tinque (and I’m not a circular dater either) but I wouldn’t want a 2-3 year engagement. I believe if you propose, it means you want to get married and you will be moving forward with those plans…otherwise, I would be wondering why you asked and why I said yes.

    I do think it takes at least that long to really get to know someone and trust and totally commit to them. My bf and I have been together for 4 years and are still discovering new things about the other. No intentions of getting married here (either of us) but I do believe it takes that time of discovery to fully develop any type of relationship.

    That being said, a lot of women who circular date are sexually exclusive with one man (that’s what Rori teaches) and many (who are in those sexually exclusive relationships) aren’t really “dating” other men (as in accepting dinner dates). The concept is more that their options are open, their hearts and minds are open to meeting other men and developing relationships (friendships??) and whichever of those relationships leads to their dream (marriage or whatever that may be) first…that’s the man who has claimed them. It’s about not allowing one man to have you all to himself with you being closed off to any other options before you are officially engaged (or emersed in your dream). It’s about “dating yourself” and being open to the attention and attraction from all men. If your man doesn’t want your mind to be open to those thoughts that some other man might end up being “the one” then he’ll leave or claim you.

    For other women (those who aren’t sexually exclusive and who aren’t in a relationsip) they are officially dating lots of men until one claims them (and they may evolve into the above if things get closer with one of the men before the actual engagement). The way circular dating is used for any woman depends so much on where she is at in her relationship and how she feels when she is with a particular man/men. The point is, the mind and heart are not closed off to any man until she has her dream.

    Make sense? I have trouble with words when I try to explain the circular dating…

    Much Love,

  239.  #239Tina on July 20, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Jason, I do not believe the 50% divorce rate is not because we didnt wait long enough to get to know our partners more.

  240.  #240Tracy on July 20, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    For me i feel that circular dating has helped me discover more about myself.i feel that i am more open to receiving and i feel glad that i can now really choose a good mate for myself as opposed to before.
    The way i relate to men has completely changed and i never would have thought that i’d attract so much attention from men its almost unbelievable…..I feel that there is so much of me i was holding back due to lack of confidence low self esteem and lack of faith in myself….
    I feel so grateful for this change in myself and each day i continue to learn more about myself….

  241.  #241dan_brodribb on July 20, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    To Mercedes – The “mistrustful” comment wasn’t intended for you at all. I wish I had a) either been more specific or b) not written it at all, as it doesn’t read as particularly constructive. However, what bothered me two days ago isn’t bothering me today, so I don’t feel like revisiting the issue.

    Jason Savage’s magnum opus caught my attention though, and I’m kind of lost.

    So, to Jason – You are an excellent writer. Your arguments are thought-out, and on paper, they make a lot of sense.

    I just don’t understand how all this harping on ‘equality’ will lead you or me or anyone else to a happier relationship.


    “Nowadays I insist on equality. I said it before:

    Your time equals my time. Your attention equals my attention. Your sex equals my sex. Your orgasm equals my orgasm. And your money equals my money. Your personality equals my personality. Your presence equals my presence.”

    Equality is a nebulous concept at the best of times let alone in a relationship. Is your ten dollars worth my ten dollars when we have different incomes. etc..

    It feels to me you’re putting some kind of ideology ahead of the people in the relationship and in my experience, that’s a recipe for misery.

  242.  #242Tina on July 20, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Rori’s tools and programs help to not wait years or perhaps never on one single man. I understand your a great guy and all, its just your not making a lot of sense here. You did say you want to be married someday but in the mean time you just want to score some pussy , as much as you can get until the blessed day you commit to one woman and have little jasons running around. I hope she is a circular dater lol.

  243.  #243Tina on July 20, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    I dont know who what im responding to anymore with all these J names ugh!.

  244.  #244Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    db: Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to make sure I explained myself if you were misunderstanding my intent. I’m really talented and getting people to misunderstand my intent. 🙂 It’s a gift…

    Much Love,

  245.  #245Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    I mean: I’m really talented at (not and) getting people to misunderstand my intent. LOL See what I mean?

  246.  #246Tina on July 20, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    I feel annoyed again. I feel emotionally and mentally abused lol, its true.

  247.  #247DocK on July 20, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    Mercedes, you make me smile : )

    Dan, I feel ‘Yes’ to what you wrote about equality. I studied gender issues as part of my doctoral work and have strong opinions – some of them based more on how I FEEL about them. I don’t shrink from my feelings or opinions but I know that too much harping on them would have been just that “recipe for misery” in my own relationships – and for what?

    I feel feminine and girly and love this about myself. I love masculine energy and feel all flustered and tingly in the face of it done right and do not feel this at odds with being “feminist.”

  248.  #248Tina on July 20, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Jason/Justin, you and your other cohorts sound like my ex. Justin, my ex did the same, he kissed me when I wasnt asked, he just thought it was a good idea at the time, later he smashed his fist through a wall next to my head (this was much later in the relationship after we were married) because I refused sex. I was trying to find the words to express how I was feeling. I am sure say 50% sure I would not have given him the time of day had I found places like this to feel its ok to feel the way I do. We practice our feelings messages and circular dating is a good way to do this. I used to believe that my resistence and stubborness was keeping me from having a “forever relationship” so I would just say oh hell with it , i’ll just go with the flow and see what happens. I would lower my standards and settle because I bought intot the idea that we are all human and make mistakes, yes and its true we do. Romantic relationships that last a life time I feel is a luxury, if this is the case then, fck it im circular dating until I find Mr. Right.

  249.  #249Tina on July 20, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    I believe it’s ok here to say ” your not making sense to my feelings” yeah something like that.

  250.  #250Fernando on July 20, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Tina: I understand where you’re coming from, members of my family have had similar relationships. I’m hurt that you’d compare me to that, but I understand.

    Like I said, if you find yourself in bad relationships, (especially abusive ones) then I’m all for changing the way you do things.

    Please know that not all men who are sweet and sexual are not closet abusers. I promise, some of us are out there, and quite infuriated at the ones who mess everything up for the genuinely great guys.

    I totally agree with you about not lowering your standards, and if circular dating is the only way to keep your standards nice and high where they belong, more power to you! I took a lot of work for me to get to the same place, and I think it’s probably true for a lot of people that it can be a struggle to go, “I’m not going to settle for this, even though it’s right here. I demand something better, because I have so much to offer, and that wouldn’t be appreciated here.”

    I’m sad you had to go through a relationship like that on your path to finding something better.

  251.  #251Tina on July 20, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Jason, you ask a girl on a date, if you dont feel inspired to pay then you recommend to other men such as yourself, to not pay?. She should have her own stash of cash just in case?.

  252.  #252Tina on July 20, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    You should at least let your victim know, like say call her in advance and say to her, bring some money just in case you do not inspire me to pay. ok so now you have “chemistry” you ask her on a date, then for whatever reason the chem is gone, so do you still pay? what do you recommend for men reading your blog?.

  253.  #253DocK on July 20, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    My comments on some of the men’s perplexity regarding “circular dating”…

    you know the stereotype – a woman meets a guy and she is picking out the china or the baby names within a few dates…

    I’m not saying this is true of all women or even to that extent – but I do think a lot of women get stuck on a particular guy wayyyy too soon – before she really knows him beyond the amazing “chemistry,” before she knows what he wants in terms of a serious relationship, and often, even ignores many of those “red flags” that she should pay attention to.

    Often, women also hang in wayyy too long waiting for a guy to “come around” to her way of thinking even when he has stated he isn’t ready, or sees her as a “friend” (with benefits) and this can go on for years.

    For me, I feel a vibe of openness in circular dating – being open to that wonderful, sexy, amazing male energy – not getting “stuck” on one guy until I know that he is “stuck” on me (sounds like a bandaid commercial). I feel flirty and appreciative of the differences of men and feel happy to express my appreciation. I feel I radiate my femininity more than when I am too wrapped up in a guy with whom I am unsure – that just makes me feel insecure and needy and clingy – what guy wants that? Bleh!

    circular dating isn’t hopping from bed to bed – although in my younger days I enjoyed my sexual freedom without apology – but now I am in a different place. I want a relationship that grows from beyond that initial “chemistry” into something deeper which does come, eventually, from “forsaking others” but not until we both are ready.

    I feel happiest letting the guy make up his own mind about me – without pressure – and when he does, he’ll step up to let me know it.

  254.  #254Simply Shannon on July 20, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    I feel resistant to the idea of waiting 2-3 years for marriage in the hopes that I’ll actually know someone well enough to marry them. I dated my ex for nearly 2 years before we married and then we were married for 7 years. Waiting did nothing for me. I didn’t hit a certain point and say to myself “okay, now I know him”. Nine years later, and I’m STILL surprised by the things he does. 🙂 Looking back, I ignored a lot of things because I thought I could change him. (Yes, you can all stop laughing now. I’m a freakin’ cliche. Call Hallmark. LOL!) The one thing I am doing differently this time around is really listening to my feelings and trusting my gut. People are who they are fundamentally if you take the time to really listen and watch. As long as I feel my relationship is moving forward, I’m okay with dating but I don’t want to be someone’s girlfriend forever. I want to be a wife again. (Mind you, different strokes for different folks – so I hope that doesn’t spark a heated debate…not my intent at all.)

  255.  #255Simply Shannon on July 20, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Dock: I love the way your words flow across the page. I can almost hear you reading them with a soft voice. I feel inspired. Thank you! And I laughed out loud at the bandaid commercial reference. I’m a Hallmark card! 🙂

  256.  #256Tina on July 20, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    I believe as women we listened to our feelings, just not the good ones:) like Dock mentioned, picking out the china and naming our future kids, we truly believe we can and want this however something was missing…

  257.  #257Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    DocK and Shannon: Now you girls are making ME smile. Let’s see…DocK is a bandaid commercial….Shannon is a hallmark commercial….Mercedes can be a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser commercial. heehee…I like that concept…

    Tina: I too agree with DocK. I think if more of us ladies in the world would remember it’s not marriage…it’s a latte (or dinner or drinks or whatever) we’d ease up some and not get all clingy and needy so soon into a relationship. Circular dating sure does make that part a lot easier huh?

    Much Love,

    Much Love,

  258.  #258Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    LOL…and I “Much Love”d you twice! Go Mercedes with the typos today!!! I need a magic eraser for my laptop! 🙂

  259.  #259Tina on July 20, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    circular dating I believe is that something missing.

  260.  #260Tina on July 20, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    It’s is more than just a latte. I was with my sister the other day and we talked to a man we both knew. He said to us, I’d buy you ladies a coffee, I just dont have any money with me right now, lol. We looked at each other and back at him and said oh, ok well nice talking to you and walked away, leaving him with an odd look on his face while blinking his eyes. We both had money, not an issue with us at the time. It wasnt a date, but if it were I would have paid for the coffees and lost that loving feeling. I would pay for my son or his friends, just a grow man knows the difference. I open the door to lowering my standards when I start paying for the coffees, latte whatever.

  261.  #261Mercedes on July 20, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    Tina: I see your point with the attraction thing…it just doesn’t work that way for me. But I wasn’t really talking about who pays…I was talking more about the emotional side of getting attached early on in a relationship and how circular dating can help with that. Meaning help us put into perspective the difference between a man who wants to marry us (or who we want to marry) and a man who’s taking us out for coffee…

  262.  #262Tina on July 20, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    yes, sure I understand that. That is me, getting emotionally attached at latte lol. Circular dating is the way to go as a matter of fact im going to circular date myself all the way to the store and back right now. Let you all know what happens .

  263.  #263Ann on July 20, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    OMGoodness my phone that I could get email on played out over the weekend. My standby won’t let me read email so I’ve been trying to catch up on ALL The post since Saturday.

    I want a phone I can recieve, send and read email on. Angels will you help me with that?

    Reading all these comments has my head feeling in a tizzy lol. It feels like some of the post were trying to convince the other party they were wrong.

    Tinque I’m sorry you’ll have to be away from K so long. May the time go quickly.

    Mercedas as you know you and I think alot alike so it feels good reading your imput again.

    Fot that matter I identify with most of the ladies here in one way or another.

    Now the guys are a different story. I truely like to read the ones who are trying to share from their experiences.

    Jason S there is something about your tone that makes me skim your post. I could very well be missing something I could learn from in them but to ME they feel too bossy and arrogant.

    Justin I feel I need to comment on something you said above. First let me tell you a position I’ve always had to me it’s a dealbreaker.

    I’ve taught my children that any partner worth having wouldn’t try to come between the relationship they have with their parents. Their partner doesn’t have to like their parents but the bond between a parent and child I feel is sacred and shouldn’t be interfere with.

    My hubby has always let me handle my family and he handles his. He doesn’t care for my parents because of things they’ve done or allowed to be done to me as a child but he still doesn’t try to interfere with any relationship I have with them.

    The point I’m trying to make is EVERYONE wasn’t blessed with loving, nurturing, protecting, really doing their best parents. I feel a person shouldn’t be judged or rejected on the relationship they have with their parents. It’s up to a person to deal with their relationship with their own parents in whatever way they see fit(as long as it’s legal not advocating hurting anyone)

    As I said this is just how I feel

  264.  #264Fernando on July 20, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    I’m totally with you Ann. I mean SERIOUS amounts of abuse. Disagreeing with your parents or whatever, we all have that problem sometimes. I’ve totally dated girls who’s parents I didn’t get along with, but I didn’t interfere with her relationship with them. The abuse thing is hardly the most important item on that list. However, abusive families or people with divorced parents DO make me a little cautious.

  265.  #265tinque on July 20, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    I’ve been gone all day, so I’m now catching up.
    Mercedes – Your definition of circular dating is the most concise and clear one I’ve ever read.
    Shannon – I hear you about not wanting to wait that long to really know a person, and maybe you’re at a point in your life where you know yourself so well, you can determine sooner whether this is “the one”. Yet I still hold to that new things emerge over two to three years and sometimes even longer especially if you do not live together. As Mercedes said, I was still learning new things after three and even four years. We’re now over seven, and I feel that the cards are now all exposed (though I may be wrong), and now that they are, our relationship has deepened into an intimacy I never even dreamed was possible. So it’s just something to consider. That’s all.
    Ann – Thank you for your words.
    AliasGirl – As lovely as your suggestion is, is just not feasible in many ways, financially, work wise, and so on. I’m looking at this as an opportunity for further growth and as it is said, Absence makes the heart grow fonder (or my parts hornier) or both.

  266.  #266Rori Raye on July 20, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    JMarie – give me an idea of what your Feeling Messages look like…Rori

  267.  #267Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    I feel like I need some help if anyone can give an opinion or suggestion…..

    I just returned from an impromptu date at a swanky little place in soho. Ok. He’s adorable and I am attracted to him. I initially refused because of short notice but I like the place and I did feel like getting out of the house for a cocktail 🙂
    I told him it would take some time for me to walk down and he said to get a cab, he’d pay for it. So I did, but I really could have walked if it was up to me. So I get there, we had a light snack, I had one drink- but he never reimbursed me. At this point I don’t care about the money. I care about him staying true to his word.
    For me, now it feels like a trust thing. I need to be able to trust him to mean what he says, I feel a little taken advantage of. He paid for everything with credit and I could understand he doesn’t have cash but…… I feel angry. I want to like him. This is just sitting on my brain now and I feel like blowing him off; he’s going dancing later and wants me to come back out but I told him I wasn’t sure but to call me and we’ll see how I feel. I worked today so I’m feeling like relaxing but I can walk to the venue he chose, so I don’t know……this taxi confusion is making me growl.

  268.  #268Erika on July 20, 2009 at 7:53 pm


    I’ve had a lot of success with “blurting” in these situations. It requires not being attached to the outcome, but … I would send him a text message that says

    “I would really love to come out with you again, and I feel like I need to be honest here and say I’m feeling a little upset that you didn’t reimburse me for the taxi. Trust and keeping our word with each other is really important to me.”

    Back in the day when I experimented with paying for dinner with one of my guys and felt awful about it afterwards, I sent him text messages blurting similar to above, and he finally got the message and stopped expecting me to pay.

  269.  #269Erika on July 20, 2009 at 7:56 pm


    I too initially found that leaning back didn’t work for me. I am more into Rori’s “rock star” goddess school than the full lean back school. The full lean back school was too reserved for me, not enough action, just felt more frustrated.

    I find that guys respond just fine to me initiating in a flirtatious way, I just keep my initiation non-sexual and focused around mutual interests. Light and playful. Like on facebook, sometimes I initiate, and as long as I have a bunch of guys I’m dating simultaneously, I don’t put pressure on the interactions, and it all feels nicely flowing.

  270.  #270Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    Mmmm…..thanks Erika, I’m still feeling weird and awkward about it though- he’s also about 7 years younger than me, which is something I NEVER do 🙂 I date older and I’m sort of chalking it up to that…….or making excuses in my head. Maybe I’ll never hear from him and I just take the loss, but that feels icky-ugh!!!! Younger guys-yech. But I am very attracted to something about him. I feel like hiding in my pillow:(

  271.  #271Erika on July 20, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    Actually, sometimes my flirting does have a sexual flavor, but it’s playful. It’s not like “I want to do you right now.” I let guys initiate sex.

    I do even initiate meetings with guys, but I don’t consider these “dates.” I view it as I have tons of guy friends, and at any time one of them could turn into a romance if we are feeling the right vibe. In the meantime, I’m going to have a thriving social life, and I enjoy men as friends, so I feel just fine emailing or texting them to see if they want to meet.

    For me, this feels a lot more liberating, I don’t get in my head as much worrying if I’m doing things the “right way,” and it still feels very feminine and goddessy.

  272.  #272Erika on July 20, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    hey Nikita,

    lol, I date younger guys now too. It never would have occurred to me, but they started pursuing me, so I was open to see what would happen. Now I date guys from 22 on up. Honestly I don’t care at all how old they are, all I care about is their vibe and ability to connect with me deeply.

    It’s that awkward feeling you mention that would make me have a conversation about it. Otherwise, it’s this “thing” hanging out there between me and the guy. It feels so good to express uncensored in feeling messages and have it all out in the open.

  273.  #273Tina on July 20, 2009 at 8:11 pm

    Nikita, did this situation prevent you from being your Goddess self during your cocktail?. I feel awkward bringing this up right now but you did say you would pay for the taxi.

  274.  #274Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    he’s at a business dinner ( verifiable ) at the moment and I know his phone’s battery is practically dead-so I may not have any contact with him tonight.

    I reread what you wrote and my question to you is; why on earth do ” these situations ” happen at all???
    In your experience since you spoke up, how did those men fare in the end-are any still around or did they self destruct and disqualify themselves with other forgetful things? I feel like he ruined it. For both of us! Is texting leaning foward? Anyways, what was their excuse or actions after you spoke up.

    I am waiting and feeling excited about the myriad of ways this situation has played out because this taxi discrepancy is a huge trigger for me.

  275.  #275Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 8:30 pm

    Yes, I am fine with paying my taxi- but he offered. Explicitly. I really could walk but he would have to wait. I feel like I should have made him wait. But the taxi was faster. The whole thing was a rush job/last minute. Some people call it spontaneity but I usually see it as annoying. I feel better with a plan.

    No, I was very goddessy and trusted that he would reimburse me when I was on my way home. I met his best-friend, a cousin, another friend, and a few older men he does business with. We just attracted all these lovely men 🙂 80 percent were married but they loved me and we all just enjoyed the day ( outdoor seating )
    He ordered for the table( I love that ) after asking me if I had something in mind-I didn’t, I told him I trust you-ugh!…all was well. Then I saw his place, met his brother( married ) and his business dinner guy. Doorman building so I felt safe. Then we headed to the car, I went home and he went to his meeting.
    I felt wonderful…for the most part-until the end. $$$

  276.  #276Erika on July 20, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    I don’t worry too much about leaning forward and back. I view vulnerable, honest communication as neither.

    I wouldn’t write him off. From what you’re saying, I am picking up a bit of guilt/doubt about whether you really deserve having him pay for it, and he’s probably picking that up too. So maybe he forgot, or maybe he thought when he picked up the tab that you no longer cared.

    Always, always give benefit of the doubt. Why? Not for him. For ME. Because benefit of the doubt allows miracles to happen. It gives men the same space to be human that we’d like to have given to us.

    So I communicate honestly, and then if he still doesn’t respond in a way that feels good to me, I may write him off. But this guy sounds redeemable to me.

  277.  #277Tina on July 20, 2009 at 8:33 pm

    texting is leaning forward, let him call you first. Just dont bother calling at all. Adorable is not an excuse for shitty behavior.

  278.  #278Erika on July 20, 2009 at 8:33 pm

    Recently a guy promised to pay my plane ticket, and I felt annoyed when I had to ask him directly to do it … several times. But the principle you’re talking about of keeping one’s word is precious to me, so it was worth it.

    What I learned is that he has this pattern throughout his life, not just with me. But he did end up paying it, and we still have a good relationship because I spoke up.

    If I had censored myself, I would feel resentment now, and that would corrupt the relationship.

  279.  #279Erika on July 20, 2009 at 8:34 pm

    see, my perspective is different from Tina’s on this one. I don’t view blurting as leaning forward. And I try not to label a man’s behavior as “shitty” until I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt first.

  280.  #280Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 8:44 pm


    yes I feel a little guilty about marching his little cashless, plastic ass down to the ATM machine when I can see his schedule is tight and he’s pressed for time at the moment. Another trigger for me is men that don’t carry cash! I only use cash myself unless I’m purchasing via the Internet. My motto is “Cash is king”. NYC cab drivers love me! I pay cash!
    I did train one plastic guy to start carrying cash on our dates…it was very subtle training.
    I do feel I deserve to be reimbursed! I can go for some impromptu flowers as well! Grrrrrrrr. I feel so angry at his cuteness! Damn him! I do despise asking people to do what they said though. My intimate partner always keeps lots of cash. He is so not a plastic man unless it’s for business to show the accountant we only use cash. I love cash. I feel good when I smell it, when I hear it. I don’t like plastic unless I’m traveling-out of state.

  281.  #281Erika on July 20, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    for me, which is better? blurting now and risking a “triggered” conversation or stewing about something for five days, feeling more and more resentment and anger? I’d way rather blurt my feelings so I can release the energy and move on to other things.

    like my blurting with Alias Girl … I feel way better now, and I didn’t even need a response from her. I’m just kinda over it. For me, that’s the magic of feeling messages.

    But with men, it’s also giving them clear signals about what we want and expect. I don’t expect men to read my mind.

  282.  #282Erika on July 20, 2009 at 8:52 pm


    So if he doesn’t have cash, I’d either make peace with myself about it, or if that didn’t feel right, I’d say:

    “Wow, I see you’re in a rush to get to this meeting, and I respect that, and at the same time, you promised you’d pay for my cab and it’s really important to me that men keep their word. So what would work for you in this situation?”

    Or, when I got frustrated with that one guy (which was more a business situation), I said “I’d feel better about referring you business if you would send me the paypal you promised.” Got it immediately 🙂

    So in this situation, “gosh, I’d sure feel better about seeing you again if I didn’t feel so awkward about that taxi thing.”

  283.  #283Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    I can’t call his behavior shitty, he opened every door for me and was a gentleman. It’s this little oversight that has me feeling weird. This is my stuff. He may have been completely mesmerized by me. He’s been waiting weeks to see me, I put him off and haven’t called. He was out of the country unbeknownst to me. He wasn’t missed. So on his side there’s been anticipation but on my side I was trying to figure out a way to say; you are too young for me but I like you but I’m not going there, you were born at the wrong time-too bad.
    so……this is so my stuff. I really want to stand up for myself here without turning into a bitch on wheels. I feel like crushing him but that won’t teach me anything. I have to take responsibility but I’m still perfecting my script-or overthinking-UGH!!!!

  284.  #284Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 9:22 pm

    Also, I was feeling a little sad discriminating against his age. I kept feeling like if only he was 30 at least! Then he’d be in the running, I liked him but I kept viewing him as a boy and too inexperienced for me. I felt like I didn’t have the patience for it…..and at the same time feeling a little miffed that the universe would taunt me and create this boyman that knew how to pursue! And feels so masculine, his energy is totally foreign to me juxtaposed to his age. I love his take-chargeness. I love his way of dress. Hey! I forgot to look at his hands! I need big hands. My hands have to be smaller than a guy’s otherwise he’s eliminated 🙁

    Erika thanks for the gosh line you suggested, it’s shorter and I feel better to be succinct in my texts

  285.  #285Erika on July 20, 2009 at 9:28 pm

    yeah cool, succinct is good 🙂

    I dunno, Nikita, he sounds hot. In that situation, I might say something like “I’m really attracted to you and I feel kind of awkward about our age difference. I’m worried we might not be a good match in some ways.” And see what he says …

    But more and more I see women dating (and marrying) younger men. It feels like there is some sort of matching up going on there.

  286.  #286Nikita on July 20, 2009 at 9:46 pm

    Erika, I’m not bringing up the age thing 🙂
    He hasn’t asked and I feel like he knows I’m older but isn’t prying.
    I won’t lie, but for me I don’t make an issue about doing something I don’t normally do. I flow with it. By going out with him I made the decision to not make my age an issue even though if I’m not enthusiastic about his actions I might blame his age 🙂
    Complete duality. He is hot. Really hot. My kind of hot minus the gray hair LOL! Well if I never see him again, I’m ok paying for that taxi-but if he wants to see me……well….you know 🙂
    He was just that enjoyable and a nice experience. I can just accept the one day of pleasure and be satisfied. So in the grand scheme of things I don’t feel attached to the outcome. And now I feel excited to see if I get a reason to square the taxi thing with him. But for right now; it was my three hour summer fling with a beautiful boy that’s going to grow up one day(hopefully overnight)to become a very sexy commanding,confident, solid, man who keeps his word and makes good on it.

    Nikita xxx

  287.  #287Erika on July 20, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    Love that vision, Nikita. Thank you and good night 🙂

  288.  #288Tina on July 20, 2009 at 11:01 pm

    I’m 42 and I am being pursued by younger men all the time. Do I really want to go there?. hm dunno. This one younger man (26 yrs.old) made a cd for me lol. It was a two night stand between my ex and the man I just ended with. The attention is nice I suppose. He asked his mom if how she felt about him having a 39 yr.old girlfriend, she said to him age is not important. He told her who I was. I felt embarrassed that he told him mom lol. I find younger men are much more brave about approaching me, older men not so much. This one other younger man sees me around in public , I feel I could a day weekend romance thing with him, just not now. The rest of the summer is just about fun for me, I’m not so sure about being seen doing the bump n grind with twenty year old men in night clubs though, ok well maybe a night or two this summer.

  289.  #289Fernando on July 21, 2009 at 12:05 am

    As a “younger man,” I’m going to have to call shenanigans and say that Erika’s text is the way to go, if you even want to call him at all. Don’t make excuses for him, he’s a grown man, and as a man, it’s up to him to keep his word. You shouldn’t settle for a man who makes you feel bad.

    Older women, I’m going to point out that younger men have a lot to offer. We’re focused on fun, and are balls of endless energy just ripe with fresh, unadulterated masculinity. If you haven’t, I’d suggest being open to the idea. Nothing less sexy than someone with a closed mind that won’t try something new to me. I AM biased though… 😉

  290.  #290Tracy on July 21, 2009 at 3:48 am

    Sorry this is off topic….
    I feel so triggered right now…I feel angry and annoyed at my insecurities.I want to be comfortable with them but i feel so stuck…..I feel so scared and helpless and my head feels heavy…i feel a sense of sadness and i feel sad and angry…I want to love my anger and my sadness…i want to go through this and learn to love myself…..
    i have a date today and i feel that my anger will prevent me from leaning back and being myself….I feel anxious and scared…..I love my myself and i love my anger…..
    thank you universe for making me feel secure and completely at ease with myself….thank you universe for making me feel at peace and happy and making me feel better….thank you universe for making me feel i am enough and deserve all the love the world has to offer…thank you universe for making me feel blessed and now i feel much better….

  291.  #291DocK on July 21, 2009 at 6:05 am

    Fernando – YES!

    I remember a time I was feeling confused because most of the men expressing interest in me were much younger and my mother said, “you don’t worry about them if they are younger. they have a lot of energy, trust me, I should know” (in her 50s she had a long-term relationship with a guy 17 years younger).

    So, with Mama’s blessing I gave it a shot and I haven’t felt so yummmyyyy in a long time. ‘Oh boys….’

  292.  #292Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 6:31 am

    Tinque: Thanks so much for the compliment on my explanation of circular dating. As you know, my most recent “rule” on my blog was about this very thing and I struggled so much with the words. I feel a bit intimidated writing about it on this blog because there are so many experts here and I don’t do it (but I truly believe in it…I just happen to be at a place where I am already emersed in my dream).

    Fernando: I’m happy you clarified that you are “cautious” with women whos parents are divorced and/or who have suffered abuse instead of simply rejecting the idea of being with a woman who has ever suffered trauma. One thing I would like you to keep in mind is that there is a HUGE difference between a victim and a survivor. My parents are divorced. I suffered EXTREME abuse as a child (physical, mental, emotional and sexual – up to and including multiple rapes). I am however, no longer a victim. I certainly was at one time and it took a lot of help to get me to where I am now, but I am a very strong, confident and sexy woman. The absolute ONLY way that childhood interferes with my life now is in the occasional nightmare (in which my boyfriend simply puts his arms around me and tells me he’s here and everything is okay – nothing more required of him) and in that I now work with young teenage (sometimes younger or older but I mostly focus on teenagers because that’s where my talents fit best) victims. I am on a mission to take them from victim to survivor and sometimes, it takes talking to someone who has been there in order for them to REALLY open up and work through those issues. I wouldn’t wish what happened to me on anyone EVER and yes…if I could take it all away from my life I would…but…at the same time, I know it is part of what made me who I am today and I know that without it, I would not be able to understand these young women the way I do and I am afraid that if it hadn’t happened to me, I might not have the passion and fire that I have today when it comes to being a strong advocate for others.

    So…just try to remember that sometimes, people can make it through some very tough stuff and they can be survivors. And…as a boyfriend…try to remember that the weight of what happened to a woman as a child is not his to bear but sometimes, yes, she’s going to need your arms around her telling her everything is okay. Because when people get the right help for this kind of thing, they can become even stronger.

    Much Love,

  293.  #293Jody on July 21, 2009 at 6:39 am

    I always get asked out by younger men! Im 35 and very rarely does a man my age or older ever approach me. I used to have a problem with it, but then I realized I dont act my age, or do things that a normal 35 yr (old woman does! I rollar blade, go to concerts, Im into body sculpting, and love to play sports with my boys! Honestly the younger guys are more fun, and have no problem appreciating me! You go girl!!!

  294.  #294DocK on July 21, 2009 at 8:02 am

    Thanks Jody!!

    I am actually going to be 49 soon so my concern was (and, mostly, still is) when they are younger than 30 and when the really young ones hit on me I know my response is ‘what are they thinking?’

    I too feel young – I work out with weights (have for 28 years), dance (pole dance, cardio dance, latin, lyrical, whatever!) and do something (or more than one thing) almost every day of the week. My younger female friends in my classes say, “I don’t know how you do it” so I know my energy is great.

    Mercedes, I also think you did a great job with the circular dating explanation. Also, I am so sorry you went through so much in your youth but how amazing you used that to heal yourself and now others. I feel awe.

  295.  #295Dorothea on July 21, 2009 at 8:17 am

    I feel freaked out reading men’s comments about how disrespectful it seems if a woman doesn’t want to pay, because I have never experienced resistance from a man on this. If we spend enough time together then we’re not just going to dinner, so if I want my superfancydoubleshotextracaramelsauce latte while we’re out, I pay for it. Sometimes I ask him if he wants something too. But MOST of the time he’s insisting he buys it for me, and I always smile and say thank you:) But I don’t want him financing my lifestyle, just our courtship, so I always pay for my own stuff in this way.

    Or sometimes I give hand massages when we’ve been dating for a lil while. Or a neck rub. Or whatever it is I feel inspired to give at the moment. The idea is to be sincere and authentic in my giving. Obligation leads to resentment on my part. Genuineness is the antidote.

    Men, I’m not paying you to see if you want to court me. If you can’t afford to buy our dinner then let’s do something cheaper or even free.

    I wonder if my dates feel the same way these other guys do, deep down. If they do, I haven’t noticed.

  296.  #296DocK on July 21, 2009 at 8:21 am

    I received flowers yesterday from a (much younger) LI as “welcome back” from my trip. I feel spoiled (as I should be) and the fragrance and beauty of them on my desk makes me feel cheery and teary at the same time. I feel cautious because nice but nosy co-workers want details. NOPE!!! : )

  297.  #297Erika on July 21, 2009 at 8:30 am

    Ahhh, I’m starting to feel uplifted by the conversation again.

    And here I want to put in another plug for meditation and energy healing like EFT cuz it ties these two topics together (age and family baggage).

    My experience has been that, using these spiritual tools regularly, none of the old rules apply anymore. So, yes, people with traumatic family backgrounds tend to have more baggage. And people tend to accumulate psychic baggage as they get older. But EFT lifts that away, so it’s like erasing the past. Meditation is scientifically proven to release DHEA and other “youth” chemicals.

    So using all this stuff I have found that my vitality has skyrocketed, and as that happened, I started attracting younger guys. Not just for sex, cuz (lol 🙂 I don’t have sex, and I don’t like that stereotype, but for full-on relationships.

  298.  #298Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 8:42 am

    Oh DocK…I need to thank you for your words here!!! I’m thanking you for the EXACT words you used: “I am so sorry you went through so much”. Thank you thank you thank you for not feeling sorry for ME but instead feeling sorry for the SITUATION. I did plenty of the feeling sorry for ME when I was younger and that part is (and should be) over…it’s what allows me to use the word “survivor” instead of “victim” when I describe myself. It’s hard to get people to a place where they don’t feel sorry for someone who has had trauma but they do feel sorry for the trauma itself. You may not have done it consciously, but you DID show a natural ability to see the difference and I appreciate that sooooo much!

    I tell my story to adults, not because I want them to feel sorry for me, but because I want them to feel passion for the situation and getting it stopped. I tell my story here because I want Fernando to see the difference between a victim and a survivor and to be able to celebrate those of us who no longer carry that trauma in a way that would discount us as wonderful, secure, loving, passionate, amazing, successful and sexy lovers. I tell my story to victims because I want them to see what they can become despite (or because of) their own trauma and that it doesn’t take pot or crack or meth or alcohol to relieve the pain. I tell my story because I want the entire world to get crazy passionate about stopping the abuse, not looking the other way, not being afraid and being empowered to save our young people from all they suffer.

    This isn’t the place for my discussion here because I am passionate about it and could write for hours (maybe I should write a book…lol) but the subject was brought up and I can’t help myself…when someone else talks about it, I feel a passion to educate and explain and help others understand that trauma and abuse is not an excuse for bad behavior but it is a reason for becoming stronger and stronger as life goes on.

    Erika: I have no feelings either way on EFT. My guess is, just as with any sort of therapy or meditation practice it works for some and not for others. But…just a couple of things here…

    I do believe that the issues of extreme abuse need to be dealt with and professionals need to be involved (especially when we’re talking about rape and/or sexual abuse of a young person) and I would caution anyone and everyone to seek traditional psychological help for these issues (maybe in addition to EFT). Also, when you say “its like erasing the past”, that scares me too. When a child has gone through something like I did, they need people in their lives who fully feel the effects of what happened. They need people who feel it in their hearts and their souls. Erasing it…well…had that happened to me…had someone just erased all of those feelings…I’m scared to death that I would not be so passionate and understanding. Scared that when I’m working with a girl who’s crying in my arms…that I wouldn’t be able to cry passionately with her…that I wouldn’t be able to go back to that place in my life and really, honestly and truly FEEL what she’s feeling. In my personal opinion, this isn’t something we want erased…it’s something we want to feel and understand and work through so that when the time comes, we can be there for another and we can get ourselves to a place where we’re not just saying “I know how you feel, I’ve been there” but instead, in that very moment, we’re FEELING “I know how you feel, I’ve been there.”

    Much Love,

  299.  #299Erika on July 21, 2009 at 8:56 am

    hey Mercedes,

    I appreciate your comments and the fear of losing the compassion and strength that we gained from going through rough times.

    That’s not what EFT does though. We don’t forget what happened, and we don’t lose the strength. Instead, it erases the “charge” around the issue — so that we stop re-creating that trauma in our lives over and over again.

    I’ve seen Gary Craig work with sexual abuse survivors on video, and I felt very very inspired. A woman who had been raped by her father and haunted by it for her entire life was able to let go of that trauma and not be emotionally affected by it anymore. I’ve seen those type of miracles on a regular basis both for me and people I’ve worked with.

    It works way faster than traditional psychotherapy, though I’m not suggesting it as a replacement. As for being FELT by another person, I’ve never found anything so powerful for instant empathy as EFT. I literally can move into the other person’s FEELING space and feel what they are feeling, as we clear it. I’ve had some truly amazing experiences with this. Huge aha! moments where I’m like, ah now I see why you can’t approach women (as I move empathetically into the blank nothingness he feels when he even imagines approaching her).

  300.  #300DocK on July 21, 2009 at 8:58 am

    Mercedes – you are right – I know you are a survivor and not a victim. My own spiritual practice supports the belief that we are all whole at our core – no matter what has happened in our life experience.

    I have never ever gone through such trauma as you experienced, but the difficulties in my life – growing up poor, being young and pregnant and miscarrying 7 months in and so on – these things have helped me to feel compassion for others and less judgmental. These experiences are part of who we are.

    I would never wish such things on others or revisit them and I know, neither would you, but from such pain so much love, compassion and understanding blossoms (after healing) to give to others.

  301.  #301Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 9:08 am

    “That’s not what EFT does though. We don’t forget what happened, and we don’t lose the strength. Instead, it erases the “charge” around the issue — so that we stop re-creating that trauma in our lives over and over again.”

    Erika: I won’t debate this with you. I will tell you that I will NEVER, EVER, EVER seek out any therapy that erases the “charge” around this issue. That charge is there and strong and real in my life and I will not have it taken away. I’d use EFT for my fear of singing karaoke in front of people I know but I will NOT use it for removing the passionate, intense feelings that go along with my childhood. Never. When I am in that moment, “re-creating that trauma” in my life (as you say)…it’s for a good purpose and I need it and I hope others feel the same because I don’t want us all to remove that charge. It’s one thing to remember what happened and to know you’re strong because of it. It’s another thing completely to be able to go back into those feelings to feel the exact same way you felt in that moment and to be able to share that with someone who can’t understand what’s happened to them.

    As I said, I won’t debate this with you. Continue to use this venue to plug EFT if you need but this is WAY too much and too intense for me to do on an internet blog.

    DocK: You are a very special lady. I appreciate your words and I feel your strength as well.

    Much Love,

  302.  #302Erika on July 21, 2009 at 9:18 am

    hmmm Mercedes, the question that comes to mind is .. How is it serving you to feel so charged about me posting about EFT?

  303.  #303Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 9:24 am

    Erika: I don’t feel charged about you posting about EFT (I simply used your words about “putting a plug in for EFT”). Put a banner on here that links to your pricing for all I care.

    My charge comes from your words “erasing the past”, “erases the ‘charge’ around the issue” and “stop re-creating that trauma in our lives over and over again”. I think I explained why I feel that way pretty well in the above posts…

  304.  #304Nikita on July 21, 2009 at 10:26 am

    In an effort to expose my feelings…….Erika, I have been seriously considering becoming certified. I’ve been feeling like volunteering to help people that feel hopeless. At the moment I’ve been helping a few friends with the help of Mr. Craig’s work.
    My feeling about it is yeah, I still feel it but the noise in my mind has been turned way down. I radiate now, after a major meltdown and everyone that knows me is asking what I did. What pills am I taking, or what’s my secret? I demonstrate through my beingness that we can feel good right now regardless of what’s gone on in our pasts. When people see me doing so much better they feel like feeling good regardless is possible for them too. My favorite thing is that it respects a person’s privacy. We have only to be honest with ourselves and the opportunity to clear out the muck and mire is there for all of us. I healed myself. In your defense to everyone that seems to feel uncomfortable with your enthusiasm for a particular technique, I empathize with you deeply. I feel the urge to herald the techniques to everyone that looks sad or upset on the sidewalks. I want everyone to feel good…….but like Neo and morpheous-we can only show a door and cannot make anyone walk through it….like a comfort zone thing. I feel like you mean well and are just enthusiastic about healing, I get that and my heart goes out to you when you get resistance to that. It feels frustrating but we all have google, so when the student is ready the teacher will appear 🙂

    I also feel like for you, it would be a disservice to humanity on your part if you didn’t share it. Yes, I feel selfish that one friend of mine who has massive anxiety is not getting the information from me that could help her…immensely! But she’s very negative and likes to attack things and right now I’m not ready to fight for her well-being. I feel selfish, I want to share with her……and yet I don’t. So for that, I APPLAUD YOUR BRAVERy. Seriously

    Nikita xxx

  305.  #305Dan_Brodribb on July 21, 2009 at 10:40 am

    Mercedes makes me smile too, DocK. My sweetie is also a feminist, and she is also quite girly and feminine. But she can also kick butt when she needs to, and I find that knee-meltingly sexy.

    I’m enjoying this thread. Because I’m not overly bothered by the “who pays?” issue, I struggle sometimes to understand what the big deal is about. I especially like reading people’s stories as to the experiences that led them to feeling the way they do about the money issue, because I feel more connected to where they are coming from.

    On our first couple dates, my current girlfriend insisted on splitting the tab. It wouldn’t have meant anything to me except that she explained why it was important to her, and it went from being a non-issue to a turn-on. It wasn’t so much what she did was what it revealed about her, if that makes sense.


  306.  #306Nikita on July 21, 2009 at 10:49 am

    P.S. You have inadvertantly blesed 5 people for sure, possibly 10 but we won’t know, and one marriage that was on the brink of disaster but they have the tools now to really forgive eachother. You did all of this through me. And then there are numerous people who are getting a more peaceful, relaxed me and I’m sure they owe their gratitude to you for that.

  307.  #307Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Ok…I’m feeling completely confused right now. I’m not sure how my words got so mixed up that they’re being understood as a resistance to EFT. Maybe if I put them here without the outside context, I can explain that I have no issues and no real feelings (good or bad) about EFT and no resistance to its use:

    “I have no feelings either way on EFT. My guess is, just as with any sort of therapy or meditation practice it works for some and not for others.”

    “I would caution anyone and everyone to seek traditional psychological help for these issues (maybe in addition to EFT).”

    “I’d use EFT for my fear of singing karaoke in front of people I know”

    “Continue to use this venue to plug EFT if you need”

    “Erika: I don’t feel charged about you posting about EFT (I simply used your words about “putting a plug in for EFT”). Put a banner on here that links to your pricing for all I care.”

    So…not one word against it, simply a caution to those who need help to also use traditional therapy and a note to Erika that I would not want those feelings erased from my heart and hope all others don’t want that either because I know first hand the benefit of having them be an intense and passionate part of my life (meaning I hope some will have the strength to be like me so that we can help those in need the way I and other survivors do it – in addition to various techniques).

    How did this happen? What did I say to make EFT the issue? The issue for me was the passion with which I feel about being able to survive abuse and come out stronger and then I shared the way I help that healing for others. After that (after I shared what I would/would not do for my own life regarding this issue), Erika explained why I was wrong about what EFT does and I explained back why it still wouldn’t be something I recommend for everyone regarding sexual abuse and rape and then…

    What happened???

  308.  #308Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 10:56 am

    db: “Mercedes makes me smile too, DocK. My sweetie is also a feminist, and she is also quite girly and feminine. But she can also kick butt when she needs to, and I find that knee-meltingly sexy.”

    Awwwaahhhh…that’s so cool and sweet and sexy. YAY for me and your sweetie!!

    Much Love,

  309.  #309Nikita on July 21, 2009 at 11:19 am


    I have watched for weeks how some of us here resist her enthusiasm and some of us look into it. To be perfectly transparent about it; since you dedicate yourself in that way to young women I feel like it would be a great additional and powerful tool for you to add to your arsenal. But I respect the fact you do things your way.

    I felt triggered a bit, maybe…’s the timing. I’ve been thinking of a friend of mine whose energy is so heavy from enduring this type of abuse since she was an infant and it’s been a pattern that has followed her into adulthood( repeated ) by other perpetrators.
    I no longer speak to her but I wanted to email her the information as I feel it would lighten her load-not erase it. Years of therapy has not helped her, it has only forced her to relive her abuse on a weekly basis. She’s in her 40’s now and though her energy is too heavy for me I want her to be in a healthy relationship and end the nightmares. So for me this was not about you, but about me expressing my truth to Erika.

  310.  #310Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Nikita: Feel free to send your friend my information as well (you can get my email off my blog). But if she does contact me, I won’t be using EFT as a tool when relating to her, so if you feel that would benefit her as well, I’ll leave it up to you to guide her in that direction.

    Much Love,

  311.  #311Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Oh…but Nikita…keep in mind, I counsel (I’m not a psychologist) and I do that with supervision and a dedication to suggesting a professional. If your friend has been in weekly therapy since childhood and still relives and suffers weekly during sessions then she’s in the wrong program and working with the wrong professional. My first advice to her would be to change psychologists and I’d be happy to help her find one with an outstanding reputation (I have lots of contacts in this area of psychology).

    Much Love,

  312.  #312Fernando on July 21, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Mercedes: I hold you in the highest regards because you can make the distinction between victim and survivor. I would date a survivor, not a victim. Some people don’t have the strength (at least, on their own) to be a survivor, they’ll always be a victim, even to the point of resisting help. I really don’t want that in my life.

    However, someone who can take the worst the world has to offer, see it as just an piece of their path, who don’t let it define them, that would be someone I’d want in my life. Some people can’t do it on their own, so they have to turn to EFT, or other forms of therapy, and whatever gets them through it, I’m all for. No one has to be or should be a victim, but not everyone has the wisdom to know that they have a choice.

    I want the people with the wisdom and the right choice. 😉

  313.  #313Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Fernando: AMEN! That is EXACTLY what I wanted you to see!!! (and why I caused this whole mess in the first place…lol) 🙂

    When you say “some people can’t do it on their own” I say “MOST people can’t do it on their own” (and believe me, I didn’t do it on my own either)…but I totally believe that with the right help and guidance, ANYONE can be as strong as their heart desires to be and I didn’t like the thought of some women being discounted for relationships because of a past they couldn’t control.

    I commend you for seeing the difference (and it looks like you saw it long before I chimed in but I didn’t realize that before I started posting. My apologies for what appears to be me underestimating you).

    Much Love,

  314.  #314Fernando on July 21, 2009 at 11:58 am

    I take no offense to being “misunderestimated.” It makes it more impressive when I show my true colors. 😉

    I really feel like most of the arguments on here are simply people not understanding each other more than any real disagreement. For instance, Dorothea is exactly what I’ve been trying to say. She clearly has as much respect and adoration for her man as he does for her, and that’s what I really want everyone to have. Seems like she’s happy with it, so there must be something to the way she’s doing things. 🙂

  315.  #315Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    OMG! I love using words that aren’t real and seeing if my boyfriend can catch it. “Misunderestimated” will be used by me, in a sentence this week…LOL 🙂

    Dorthea: I agree with Fernando. You say it well. I especially like this part: if I want my superfancydoubleshotextracaramelsauce latte while we’re out, I pay for it. Sometimes I ask him if he wants something too. But MOST of the time he’s insisting he buys it for me, and I always smile and say thank you:) But I don’t want him financing my lifestyle, just our courtship, so I always pay for my own stuff in this way.

    I’m sorry I missed that earlier…was too into my own thoughts and feelings on another matter at the time I think. But..yeah…cool words and way of looking at it.

    Much Love,

  316.  #316Rori Raye on July 21, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Mercedes and Erika, Thank you for this take on trauma – which is an area I’ve worked with quite a bit. I’m very into the Peter Levine “Waking The Tiger” model of trauma release, and my August Interview in my Series is an amazing one with Sharon Porter, who does Somatic Trauma Resolution in an extraordinary way. EFT fits in here as a part of “energy medicine” (for me). Mercedes – as a trauma survivor myself – I understand what you’re saying about not wanting to lose connection with the power of the experience. What Trauma Release work does (done properly) is to UNFREEZE you. In any trauma situation, we have impulses to either fight or flee, and if we cannot do either of those, we freeze. Unlike animals, who can shake off that freeze, we STAY frozen – our whole lives. And live with and from that frozen place. We are not trying to sugar coat, or minimize, or disappear experience, we are working to free the body, mind, heart, cells. We are looking to break the connection between pain and love, between life and fear that lie at the bottom of many of our responses to life. We can talk about this anytime, and thank you for working on helping others with this in your own ways. Love, Rori

  317.  #317Daria on July 21, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Yay I’m happy Fernando cleared that up because I was feeling icky thinking of that as his hard fast rule.

    EFT does not erase charges in a way that people cannot access their emotions anymore. EFT is something magical like riffing. It does no harm whatsoever. I feel frustrated when people reject its use on what seem like logical grounds. The reality of it is that when it works it works with no negative effects. Kind of self love. We wouldn’t say… (or maybe some would on some level) … oh I don’t want to love myself on that issue because then I couldn’t access those painful feelings anymore.

    I’m feeling all weird and stuffy today. I feel weird, hot and jumpy, anxious, afraid. It feels kinda hormonal. hehe

  318.  #318Daria on July 21, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    I feel guilty reading my above post now.

  319.  #319Rori Raye on July 21, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Tina – did you see the show “The Cougar”? Loved it. My husband is younger, and a man in the past who was profoundly connected to me was 13 years younger – look at Demi Moore. Your life is yours to experiment with. Go with the man who wants you…start there. Love, Rori

  320.  #320Mercedes on July 21, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Rori: Thank you. I’m not opposed to any type of healing at all…if it works, go for it. I AM however, a very strong advocate of working with a psychologist to get through a sexual abuse/rape situation.

    I actually haven’t been frozen in many years (but I do know what that feels like and have been there)…now I’m a fight person (rarely flee and never freeze).

    I’m intrigued by EFT but personally would not use it or recommend it for this particular issue on it’s own. In addition to traditional therapy…sure…why not. That’s all…I’m not about being for it or against it or resisting it. There are obviously LOTS of people out there (on this blog alone) who WOULD recommend it as a primary therapy for abuse/rape so I’ll leave it up to them/you to do that.

    All I know is my feelings have made me stronger and more sure of myself and much more confident…and in my own personal opinion…much better able to work with someone who has also suffered and I wouldn’t change that for the world. I wouldn’t lose the nightmares because they keep me in touch with how it feels to be a little girl and have that happen. I wouldn’t use hypnosis to remove the memories because the memories keep me in touch with what it’s like to be a teenager and have that happen. I wouldn’t lose any of the effects because those help me stay so incredibly in touch that I have fire, passion and empathy in such a way that I would never risk changing that.

    I’m lucky. I don’t struggle on a daily basis with this. It honestly only affects my life when I’m in a therapy session with another woman/teen/child and the way I feel in that moment isn’t something I would ever want to change.

    Again…thanks for your comment on this. I really appreciate you.

    Much Love,

  321.  #321Tina on July 21, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    For me, I would always ask first if I can get a double whatever Dorthea likes. A simple pleasure such as a doublewhateverwhatever is my unique way and if he doesnt man up and pay for the thing then fkc it! I prefer a cherry slushie on a hot day rather than an ice cream, the man I was with for 11/2 years always asked me out for ice cream, I hate the feelings of eating ice cream on a hot day ugh! but a slushie oh yeah. I save ice cream for winter. The thing to this is, he only knows this about me by spending time with me and getting to know me. A man that shows up with a slushie in hand, makes me feel suspicious, is there a drug in it? lol. Pay Attention! Its not about the money well, it is kinda, so Im out shopping or whatever and I feel by beauty upkeep such as an eyebrow wax needs tending to, I also feel to be entertained with a movie, an eyebrow wax is 15 bucks, a movie can cost up to twenty so add that up and its? lol, im not a mathmatician lol ok 35 bucks I usually do my own, the strips cost 10 bucks at the drugstore ok so I can go either way with this I can get the drugstore stuff and do it myself, but I dont feel to do it myself so I go to the salon and have it done, plus If I feel like watching movies alone, I’ll buy old movies (triple features) at the dollar store for a buck. If I’m feeling kinda “stuck” while I’m getting my eyebrows waxed I’ll ask my esthetician what I should do, so I get my mental health benefits at the same time i’m taking care of my beauty needs and entertainment to boot all for under 30 bucks, hey, I feel so accomplished in taking care of my needs, and if I happen to have some change left over ill go and buy new underwear to, slushie, latte whatever, Is it to much to ask for a man to spend money and pay attention to detail while courting me, I think not!. We all have our own special way of wanting to feel loved by our men we choose.

  322.  #322Tina on July 21, 2009 at 1:00 pm


  323.  #323Fernando on July 21, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    What if I buy you a pony with a unicorn horn glued on? Are feaux unicorns allowed?

    My little ponies?

    I kid. 🙂

    Just for the record, I like really fast cars and F-22 fighter jets, and if a girl got either for me… I’d be pretty smitten.

  324.  #324Tina on July 21, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    lol oh fernando try stealing a kiss while your at it.

  325.  #325Fernando on July 21, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    I don’t steal kisses. I walk right up, knock on your door, and take the kiss right from your lips. Stealing implies trying to sneak it up on you. I’m not very sneaky. 🙂

  326.  #326Tina on July 21, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    I feel like oh no he didnt bring that pony with glued horn is so funny, I may just “give it up” after laughing so hard. Why do men do this Fernando?. Do all men feel they need a gimmick?. does this go back to schoolyard days?

  327.  #327Tina on July 21, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    sneaky is a skill when applied to doing things like back in the “hunting/gathering days. Do you hunt or fish?. You cant sneak up on a soybean, its just not manly.

  328.  #328Nikita on July 21, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Tina, LOL! I feel like sneaking up on a soybean:)

  329.  #329Fernando on July 21, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    I think guys that use gimmicks simply doubt themselves. If they had any real confidence in themselves as they are, and the quality guys have this, they wouldn’t use gimmicks. They may make silly jokes though. And use lots of smilies. 🙂

    As for sneaking up on soybeans… They ALWAYS notice me! I mean, how’m I ever going to make tofu if I can’t successfully sneak up on a soybean!?! I’m a total failure! 😉

  330.  #330Tina on July 21, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    I dont feel that “showing off” is a sign of self doubt for men. As a matter of fact I do believe its a part of a mans nature. I have noticed this in a lot of public settings. Men bringing me more than my fair share of chairs, men fluff up their feathers and dance in many different ways, by showing off their skills for one particular woman in a setting. Men do this thing, I like to call duck and dive, when they are within a group of men and a lady comes along, they start to duck and dive , showing off their talents,say for example construction workers or any group of men anywhere anytime. Showing up with a horn glued to a pony is so romanic, I feel all the happy hormones just flowing through my body. *sigh

  331.  #331Tina on July 21, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Real confidence comes from knowing you can compete with other men. He could be a brain surgeon or a guy on wall street.

  332.  #332Tina on July 21, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    I find that very sexy , kinda like yeah, Ill flip my skirt for this one lol just kidding but you know what I mean. Keeps you on your toes

  333.  #333Tina on July 21, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    Good looks only take you so far and you are a very handsome dude Fernando I must say, wouldnt you agree ladies?

  334.  #334Fernando on July 21, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    I see your point. There’s a point that showing off is cute and love-able and part of the mating dance, and there’s a part where he’s clearly trying too hard. I feel like the REALLY great men are like… hmm… I can only think of cars, but I hope you’ll still get it.

    Have you ever gone car shopping, at like a Ford dealership? You want a red car, but all they have is black, so they try to sell you on the car they have in stock?

    If you go to a Rolls Royce dealership, they’re not going to sell you a car. If you don’t want the car, then that car is not for you, and no one gets hurt by it. If the Rolls IS the car for you, you can count on being very well taken care of, but it’s not for everyone. Also, bragging about a Rolls Royce only detracts from its value, because the Rolls is obviously a wonderful car.

    If none of this makes any sense, here’s a picture of a Ford:

    Here’s a picture of a Rolls Royce:

  335.  #335Tina on July 21, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    you want to be the reason cats say meow lol. Thanks fernando, your a good sport for coming onto Siren Island.

  336.  #336Erika on July 21, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    lol @ Fernando calling himself “Fernando” and being flirted with here.

    mostly I feel grateful that he is helping me with my website. I really needed a man 🙂

  337.  #337Erika on July 21, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    Nikita, thank you. I really appreciate the appreciation.

    I feel mostly curious about the resistance, particularly resistance from those who haven’t given it a good faith try. At the risk of triggering everyone in sight (as usual), I do know that the egoic mind resists anything that allows for release from its grip.

    I surely resisted a lot of Rori’s teachings at the beginning of this journey.

  338.  #338Erika on July 21, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    I feel delighted by your posts. I love how you say you feel guilty about what you just posted. It makes me smile and sometimes laugh out loud. I feel a lot of freedom and fancy in your writings. I feel like together we could “feeling message” ourselves right into our own fun fairytale.

  339.  #339alias girl on July 21, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    i feel really good about what rori wrote about trauma survivors. I used to be really frozen and hide ALOT. now I’m more of a fighter when i need to be.

    I used to be FROZEN. and SILENT. I would just shut down and lose my voice.

    Hehe. I’m a little different now. i feel good about this.

    I also feel very good about mercedes helping people. I feel good about all the sirens on the blog because i feel good heartedness with ALL of them.

    i feel good to read what people write.

    i feel grateful. very very grateful. thank you.

  340.  #340Erika on July 21, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    oooh, I am feeling very excited. Fernando is making huge progress on my new blog site. It’s starting to look boooootiful.

  341.  #341NJ on July 22, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    I have a friend I have known for 8 years in the beginning we were teenagers and I had a crush on him.recently he expressed he has feelings for me more then a friend but he has a girlfriend and they have been together for a long time?Do you think he might break up with her or is he trying to play the field?

  342.  #342Mae on July 22, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Hi, new here and I have a question

    I’ve been following this discussion and feeling very inspired by it. My question is a practical one.

    The other day I joined an internet dating site. I’m still working on my profile. Should I say right in my profile something like “I am feeling old fashioned about dating these days and I feel more comfortable if the man pays.” along with something about being quite happy with inexpensive or free activities, or should I just assume that he will pay?

    I guess if I don’t put anything in my profile about it I can just deal with it as it comes up and not see him again if he makes it feel more like a “friendship” than a romance by asking to split the check.

    Should I sort of “warn” him ahead of time in some way that my expectation is that he will pay?
    thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice!

  343.  #343Nikita on July 22, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    that feels true

  344.  #344Rori Raye on July 22, 2009 at 10:18 pm

    Mae, welcome, and great question. Nope. Don’t suggest or hint or lead. Dating is all about finding out what a man will do on his own. Discover. Love, Rori

  345.  #345Rori Raye on July 22, 2009 at 10:20 pm

    NJ — Ignore him. If he breaks up with her and asks you out, then pay attention to him. Now, he’s just using you to help with the relationship he’s in….Don’t get caught up in this…Love, Rori

  346.  #346Fernando on July 22, 2009 at 11:53 pm

    Mae, I TOTALLY agree with Rori, but for totally different reasons.

    Everything you mention on your online profile, people magnify 100 times. “I expect him to pay for dinner” translates online as “I expect him to also pay for my car, credit cards, and first class seats to Paris. Weekly.”

    Good luck on there!

  347.  #347Mae on July 23, 2009 at 5:01 am

    :)! Too funny Fernando! Guess I’d better not use the word “curvy” either.

    Rory thanks for answering. Clearly I have to switch gears in order to not lead and just see what he does. It feels fascinating to turn everything inside out and try to approach life in a whole new way.

  348.  #348patricia carney on July 23, 2009 at 9:09 am

    hello rori well last week was really tough for me as I didnt have to think about my ex as weeks came by I have been clearing my mind a lot to get rid of my anger and jealousy including the hatred of him being with the wife ok so I will tell you the honest truth about me and the ex well as I explained in all of those recent post comments how I felt about my ex we have been secretly together for three short years now of getting to know each other the trouble started a while ago when he was engaged to the wife seven days ago and planned the wedding in spain I am his ex girlfriend this was a little bit awkward I have met his wife a few times in limerick and I felt really uncomfortable around her being there in the house and there was silence between me and her as we never talked to each other I have done something really awful and horrible to her the swearing and the name calling there was a lot of heated tenstion but we didnt argue there was no point I recently started writting horrible mean letters to her but I didnt mean what I said it was the heat of the moment that caused us not being friends I was just explaining how I feel about her and my ex thats all it was not planned by me and it is not my idea it was my jealously of her that there was a horrible rift between us I felt really awful the way I have treated her I really felt hurt by that marriage proposal and the worse thing is I have been l etting my frustrations out on her by a big mistake I have regetted it since that secret proposal started it was my anger towards her and I was being horrible and mean to her as well andrew was there when it happened the heated tenstion between me and her his wife of ten years for the sake of their marriage me and her should be good friends for him she didnt do anything wrong I did by not trusting my ex and I was letting all of my anger out on her but I still trust him and have faith in him like I should trust her too and have faith in her to be a good friend to me it is been a while now for weeks since the trouble started with my ex not trusting me and we broke up as a resualt of that and that shocking proposal too it is defiantly not a affair as I HAD a awful and horrible breakdown because of that marriage proposal I only had a major crush on on him a while ago I just found out he is married to her

  349.  #349patricia carney on July 23, 2009 at 9:18 am

    hello rori well last week was really tough for me as I didnt have to think about my ex as weeks came by I have been clearing my mind a lot to get rid of my anger and jealousy including the hatred of him being with the wife ok so I will tell you the honest truth about me and the ex well as I explained in all of those recent post comments how I felt about my ex we have been secretly together for three short years now of getting to know each other the trouble started a while ago when he was engaged to the wife seven days ago and planned the wedding in spain I am his ex girlfriend this was a little bit awkward I have met his wife a few times in limerick and I felt really uncomfortable around her being there in the house and there was silence between me and her as we never talked to each other I have done something really awful and horrible to her the swearing and the name calling there was a lot of heated tenstion but we didnt argue there was no point I recently started writting horrible mean letters to her but I didnt mean what I said it was the heat of the moment that caused us not being friends I was just explaining how I feel about her and my ex thats all it was not planned by me and it is not my idea it was my jealously of her that there was a horrible rift between us I felt really awful the way I have treated her I really felt hurt by that marriage proposal and the worse thing is I have been l etting my frustrations out on her by a big mistake I have regetted it since that secret proposal started it was my anger towards her and I was being horrible and mean to her as well andrew was there when it happened the heated tenstion between me and her his wife of ten years for the sake of their marriage me and her should be good friends for him she didnt do anything wrong I did by not trusting my ex and I was letting all of my anger out on her but I still trust him and have faith in him like I should trust her too and have faith in her to be a good friend to me it is been a while now for weeks since the trouble started with my ex not trusting me and we broke up as a resualt of that and that shocking proposal too it is defiantly not a affair as I HAD a awful and horrible breakdown because of that marriage proposal I only had a major crush on on him a while ago I just found out he is married to her I was really struggling with that now for a few couple of weeks it is before he got engaged seven days ago to her we had a one summer romance and a chemistry which sparked fireworks and a spark in spain a discret secret relationship I was his secret girlfriend nothing
    else happened with us that was it we never dated kissed or held hands at all no strings attatched thats why we never told his wife together what was going on between me and him please help me make amends with my ex and his wife with fiach and cormac too to repair the damage and trouble I have caused bewtween the two brothers my past boyfriend johnathan kilpatrick and my boyfriend of four and a half years

  350.  #350alias girl on July 24, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    patricia carney welcome. rori’s tools may be helpful for you. the ebook is a great place to start. also there is a lot of information just on rori’s website and blog.

    i feel compassionate. i used to feel a lot of confusion and anxiety around my relationships with men (and people in general). rori’s tools really helped me a lot.

  351.  #351AGirl on November 30, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    This is a tough one for me because I make more than twice as much money than my boyfriend. Yes, I said boyfriend. He practically begged me to be his girlfriend about a year ago and I finally said yes. Now, he works too much and spends less time with me so I’m thinking about trying circular dating. I let him take me out on a nice date occasionally where he pays. I know it makes him feel good and I try not to feel bad about it. The bigger issue is that I wonder how we will ever integrate our lives. I’m not sure I want to be married again. I have a young daughter so I have to consider her. I also have a nice house. He lives in a very small, not so nice apartment. My mortgage is 5 times his rent. Plus his utilities are included in his rent. I often buy groceries and we make meals together. He buys a few from time to time but I keep my kitchen pretty well stocked so most of it comes from my pocket. Is this okay? If we ever got married will he ever be able to feel like he can provide for me? I’m not even sure how comfortable I would feel paying most of the bills. I wouldn’t want to put his name on the house either since I would be continuing to pay for most of it. I sometimes wonder if he works so much to try and make up for it. He doesn’t get paid for his extra hours though. He did earn a promotion but what he makes is still not worth the hours he puts in. I’m not sure how to tell him that what I need is his time, not his money. At the same time I’m not sure how things will work this way. Does anyone have any advice about the money difference? Also, if I decide I don’t want to get married again, but want to keep him committed to me, should I still circular date? I’ve tried some of the other things Rory suggests such as not calling him as much and this has helped him to call me more like he used to.

  352.  #352Mercedes on December 3, 2009 at 8:03 am

    AGirl: I’m not much help with the money thing. I made a LOT more money than my ex-husband and he was very, very intimidated by that. He never felt like “the man” and resented everything about my job. That wasn’t the only reason our marriage didn’t work, but it sure didn’t help matters. Your situation is a tough one. I guess it depends on two things: 1. The specific man in question and how well he can handle it. 2. Your own needs and desires (ie do you want a man who has the ability to take care of you financially in your same lifestyle if he needed to, or do you not care). No advice here, just been there and understand what you’re going through.

    But I do have some additional thoughts on your question: “Also, if I decide I don’t want to get married again, but want to keep him committed to me, should I still circular date?”

    This is where I’m at right now. I don’t want to get married and I’ve been dating my boyfriend for about 4 years. I tried being exclusive with him for a time and he ended up cheating on me. When he was busy working on himself and trying to get me back, I was circular dating up a storm and I have zero regrets about that. Once J fully committed to me, I stopped circular dating. We are exclusive and in love and we’re going to spend the rest of our lives together. So, for me, I dated other men until I had what I needed from J. If your goal isn’t marriage, what is it? At what point do you have what you need? Is it buying a house together or living together or is it a verbal from him about comittment for life? For me, it was a series of converstions about our future together and it was after he convinced me we would spend the rest of our lives loving each other in a monogamous relationship. It was a LOT of convincing and it was when I felt in my heart that we had a bond stronger than any marriage vows could ever give us. Then…I no longer dated other men. For other women, the “goal” might be marriage and to others, living together and still others might want a child together. Whatever it is YOU need in order for you to know he has comitted is when you’ll stop circular dating because you’ll be positive you are spending your life exactly the way you want to spend it.

    I hope that makes sense…

    Much Love,

  353.  #353Julie Ferman, Cupid's Coach on December 26, 2009 at 4:22 am

    Great article, Rory! I especially like the creative, inexpensive date suggestions. As a personal matchmaker, I find that the high maintenance Princess type is a big turn-off to many men; today’s single relationship-seeking women are wise to listen to your advice. There are ways of being feminine and receiving during the early dates without being burdensome financially to a man who wants to be a Provider, but who needs to be responsible about managing his resources.

  354.  #354Seablaze on April 6, 2010 at 9:18 am

    Okay I met a guy that wants to date me, however he he keeps emphasizing that he has a coupon for this restaurant he wants to take me to. It is really turning me off of dating him. I don’t expect a man to take me to some fancy restaurants or anything like that, but still – a coupon?? I’m not really attracted to him at all especially after hearing that and I don’t want to waste his time. He is a really nice guy and I feel that I have to find a way to tell him I’m no longer interested. What do you think??

  355.  #355Rori Raye on April 6, 2010 at 9:44 am

    Seablaze, Welcome, and reading your comment makes me want to put on a character – a marvelous Southern Belle who’ll flick her hand and say “Honey, whatever are you doooiiinngg…?” If you’re not interested in him for other reasons – if you just can’t get yourself up to a 6 or 7 out of 10 in feeling attracted to him as a person and as a man – then just say” I feel awkward, but I just don’t feel we’re a match and I don’t want to waste your time, so, no, I thank you for the invitation, but no…..” but – a COUPON hunter turns you off? So he gets excited about coupons and freebees and saving money – I don’t hear you say he’s ungenerous or stingy…where’s your sense of humor? Please don’t get into casting aside perfectly good men for such small, inconsequential – possibly even fun – things. Love, Rori

  356.  #356Ada on April 6, 2010 at 10:15 am

    Seablaze – I’m with you on the coupon! It’s one thing for him to mention it in passing but to keep saying it would also make me cringe! It made me laugh though and I suppose you could take a chance and go out with him once with a smile on your face (after all you dont have to worry about wasting his money – he has a coupon!!!)

  357.  #357Seablaze on April 7, 2010 at 5:34 am

    Thanks so much for your responses!! Rori, I actually got the impression that he is stingy from him mentioning the coupon on more than one occasion. But perhaps I could be wrong. Ada, thanks for the advice, but I just think it’s best not to give him any false hopes since I really don’t feel any chemistry or compatibility with him. I also forgot to mention he talks mostly about himself and his work which also is kind of a turn off. He barely ask questions about me. I think I will have to let him down gently. Thanks for the advice!