Does Being Married Make Him a Toxic Man

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heartattackOkay – more “tough love” – but I’m surrounding this with the most love and care, and total identification with what Terry is feeling and going through – because I’ve been there…and so have you, in one way or another.

So – no judgment…and the tough love is for me, too, and for all of us…to keep us always aware and valuing feeling good and happy….as well as Terry.  Here’s her follow up comment to my recent post about her:

“Rori, Does being married make him a toxic man? Or just unavailable?

Although I was clearly the masculine energy partner, he was doing some of the pursuing, bringing small gifts, calling me, etc. but said that he couldn’t really pursue me until he found a way to leave his abusive wife and protect his kids from her, that he didn’t want the kids to think he’d betrayed them. Around mid-August, my insecurities started acting up. I got very clingy – that’s what he hates most about his wife, other than the domestic violence.

I worked on it. We were ok until after his baby was born end of Sept. He said it didn’t change the way he felt, but he wanted to “behave himself better.” He pulled back a little, but I freaked out and pressured him to spend time with me, etc. and it never seemed to be enough. Oct. 20th I got overly emotional, started to cry, asked him to tell me one too many times that he loved me. He responded, “How many times do I have to tell you?” Since then, we’ve only had one date, three weeks ago. He has not initiated contact, other than one phone call. We are supposed to meet later today, but he’s hedging.

I can’t get past the fact that I believe he’s my soulmate, we went from him making plans to leave her and marry me to me completely killing it to this weird “non-relationship.”

How do I handle the guilt and anger, and how can I even use feeling messages to communicate with him if he won’t even give me face time?

Here’s my response – but I’m going to do this differently – I’m going to pose a lot of QUESTIONS.  This is such a huge issue, I want to break it apart – and there are so many elements floating around in it…I want to let the questions percolate, and I want to PROVOKE both your emotional and mental responses – to TRIGGER us ALL so that we can confront this for what it is, and bring up more powerful feelings – anger, rage…stuff like that…so get ready to be triggered and to FEEL….

Basically, this is based on the same answer as before – “What are you DOING?” – but I want to take it farther.  I’ll talk directly to Terry, but really, this applies to ALL of us if we’re not living our total dream at every moment – because this terrible and extreme situation Terry is in can illuminate the small ways we treat ourselves badly. (this is going to be long…so I’m going to break it up into several posts…

*He is married.  And he likely lies to his wife about you.  And he likely lies to you about his wife.  Being married is unavailable – lying is toxic.
*He is a man who tolerates abuse.
*He is a man who feels it’s somehow “okay” to carry on two relationships at the same time.
*He is a man who feels it’s somehow “okay” to toy with your emotions just because he himself is “confused” and “torn.”
*He is a man consumed by guilt, fear and anger because of all of these things.

Each one of these things makes him TOXIC.

And I want to make this clear – if you are THERE (as I talked about in the last post) in an abusive relationship – then you are just as “toxic” as he is.

It has to be that way – there’s no other way to see it.  If you stay and tolerate abuse, you are “toxic.”  You are “co-dependent.”  My Toxic Men program goes into all this in detail – the Why of it, the What of it, and the How to get yourself OUT of it.

For now, let’s take a break here, I and consider these questions:

Are you “toxic” when you treat yourself badly? When you allow yourself to be treated badly? And what does that mean – toxic – when you’re talking about yourself?

Where do regular girl feelings like insecurities and anxieties and fears end, and toxic stuff start?  Does it matter?  If I say that Toxic is about behavior – what you do, how the  masculine part of you “acts” – then how can you help yourself feel peaceful about the feelings the feminine part of you experiences?

How much anger and rage can you feel without acting angry and rageful (I made that up….)?

How can you release this anger and rageful energy without being a drama queen or hurting someone? Or hurting yourself? And so what if that happens anyway?

How could you release all this energy in communicating to man in any way that would heal you and perhaps the relationship? Let’s go outside the box for this one – I want to explore all the ways “mistakes” in communicating can help you (this deserves a whole new post…)

When is a man no good?

When is a relationship no good, and even if the man is good? How can you tell?

I’ll answer all these myself as we go along, but I’d love to hear your thoughts and feelings – and then we’ll move onto the next post.

Love, Rori


  1.  #1ABC on December 6, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    i am in “somehow similar” situation with Terry. HOWEVER, he is almost done with his divorce, he totally understands that he was being abused before and now learning to be a better man for me, he is always open to the challenging questions i throw at him to inspire him to be a better man…

    i have not once being confused about his feelings for me,
    i feel totally safe when i am with him,
    i believe in us and his decision to be a better man,
    most importantly, i am not hung up on him, i have a happy life outside of the relationship.

    So does that make him toxic?? if a man was toxic before, can he be transformed if i am happy and healthy?
    can he be transformed if he’s willing and is trying to learn everything to be a better man?

  2.  #2Melanie on December 6, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    I like this because I just found out that one of my circular dating guys is actually still living in the same house with his wife that he is supposedly separated from (says “we sleep in different beds” as if that makes a difference!) I asked him if she knew he was dating. He said she knows he talks to me on fb as a friend but does not know we had lunch, etc. I asked how she would feel if she knew it was not just friends and he replied that she would be very hurt. So…. my gut instinct was to be done with him. However, he feels like I am “helping” him with his recovery as an adult child of an alcoholic because I actually listen to him and respond to him and share feelings with him, which his wife does not. But my gut feels (did not say this to him), “Sorry. Yes, I probably am really good for you, but not in this situation. You are running away from making hard decisions, and I am not going to help you run away. I also am not going to participate in hurting a woman who also has her own needs and feelings, regardless of whether she shares them openly with you.” The easy part for me is that I wasn’t all that attracted to him anyway, so it is easy to walk away. I am sure if he were someone I was really drawn to, it would be agony.

    I do have a question, though, Rori, about this statement: “He is a man who feels it’s somehow “okay” to carry on two relationships at the same time.” I thought that’s what WE are doing when we circular date??? Why is it okay for us to do that, but toxic if a man does it? I do tend to see things in black and white, so if there is a subtle difference, I won’t be able to see it on my own without some help. 🙂 Thanks.

  3.  #3Wendy on December 6, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    I really feel for Terry, it is hard to be in a situation like that. Maybe her man will turn around, maybe not. But the first thing she needs to do is to distance herself from the situation. Letting GO !! I think that giving herself sometime to be with just herself and doing nothing else will really help. Until she feels human again and can face the world with a smile. For me that would be locking myself up in my house and watching every show or listening to every song that helps me feel the strong emotions I would be having about the situation. Than try to bless the situation by taking what I have learned from how I acted in this case and what signs I ignored that got be there in the first place. And than, blessing the man and his situation (that is really messed up) and just leaving him alone to handle this situation all by himself.
    Because he doesn’t need to make her life any more miserable. Life is to short to be that way, He will end up calling when all communication is cut off. I hope by than that she has done enough soul searching to be able to calmly handle this.
    But the real question remains.
    Do men become toxic once they are married.
    My last marriage ( my second one, my first one was wonderful and romantic but we meet at the age of 15 and we were too young, as we were told but at that age we didn’t listen.)
    In my second marriage just as soon as we married (it actually seemed to happen about 2 weeks before we got married, but I thought it was just the stress of telling him where to go and what wear etc. we even gave up our home to relatives a lot was going on.) The emotional abuse happened, I was called names like slut, bitch, whore. If I was home 10 minutes late I was having sex with a co-worker. He had to be in total control of everything. I couldn’t go out with my friends etc. I couldn’t believe what was happening. He would take pride in himself for not hitting me. The problem got worse when the issue of sex came up. I am strong-minded and didn’t give it to him unless he was treating me good. I finally learned he was a closet alcoholic and hated himself so he took it out on me. I left him over 10 years ago and I have not had a relationship since. I have a daughter who just turned 18 and I am now able to think in a positive way and I stopped beating myself up for getting into a situation like that. I used to think, why didn’t I notice the signs that were there. They were small and hidden, but still there . Now I am worried about how to find myself again, the way I was in my first marriage. I am now in my 40’s and I am still able to turn a mans head when I walk by. And I am not exactly skinny. But it makes me feel good. I am just scared to try again. I have found a man I just adore, but I think he is emotionally not available. I have read your e-mails faithfully, I have just recently lost my job that I had for 20 years. I was only working part-time anyway because of a car-wreck I was in. So I have not had the money to buy any of your cd’s and I’m not sure which one to buy because they all sound perfect for me in one way or another.
    How do you find a man who will not turn into a toxic man or avoid one who already is a toxic man?
    I think that I am now strong enough to get out in the world and try again

  4.  #4tinque on December 6, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    There’s always that possibility Wendy, but the more you learn about you, the more aware you become in all ways, the more you will be able to see, feel, sense the toxicity.
    The more of this work you do on yourself, the less you will attract these kinds of men.
    I’m sorry you lost your job. This does make things feel more difficult.

  5.  #5Jennifer on December 6, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    OMG my heart is broken
    I just found out that a dear friend of mine is in a toxic relationship.
    To a man who is a friend of mine as well.
    They have both been a professor of mine and I thought they were perfect together. Really perfect.
    But he is a porn junkie apparently. He has gotten to the point where he cannot orgasm with her.
    She is hurt, and sad and so angry.
    I feel like my reality is a bit skewed. I used to hold them up as an example of the kind of relationship I wanted. But now it clearly is not.
    And this is a really beautiful, feminine, smart accomplished woman. She has three degrees and teaches college. She is amazing.
    I just feel hopeless. It feels like they all must be messed up in some way.
    Are there any real, honest, giving men out there? Or all they all gone?
    I feel intrigued by the idea that Rori put forward in the phrase “I want to explore all the ways “mistakes” in communicating can help you” That sounds fantastic to me…..I’m always worried that I make mistakes in communicating so if they could actually help me…..mores the better.

  6.  #6tinque on December 6, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    Jennifer – Yes there are most definitely honest, good, giving, loving, affectionate, generous men out there. I have one, an amazing special beloved man with whom I’ve been for eight years, and we just keep getting better together in all ways, deeper, more connected, more profound, and the sex too.
    Mercedes too has an amazing man as does Rori. There many, many wonderful men in this world. There are. The icky ones just seem to get the most press. The more you work on you, the more of these men will show up, for you.

  7.  #7Daria on December 6, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    I had sex!!!

    last nite

    with this guy i had sex with once before…
    hes like my lover, not someone i really am considering being with

    hehe it felt good but also it was difficult! haha

    cuz i was hurting

    but umm yes it felt good… ive been wanting to have sex… and now i dont “have to have it” with my ex who was being rude haha


    woo hooo

    i took care of my needs yeah!

    i am soo happy of this

    oh i drove to him lol. he has no car. but once i got there he took care of me and i felt good. i felt good about driving too

    – so weird and cool to be able to follow my feelings about driving when and if i want –

    he said hehe now im getting nervous in my own room

    he said he missed me… he had broken up his past relationship 2 months ago

    this was freakin awesome i feel so glad to be able to do this just cuz i want to and not judge myself

    rocky rocky rocky

    i feel mega nice

  8.  #8Daria on December 6, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    his status now says:

    feeling good feeling great how are you…

    normal (with a wink)

    his baby’s mom wrote: good 2 hear

    so i wrote: lol

    i was thinking not to write but oh well

    i dont want to be “hiding”

    im feeling good feeling good too

  9.  #9Daria on December 6, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    lol he just called me! he left a message apologizing that he didnt call this morning…

    hehe i wasnt tripping or expecting it

    this is fun!


  10.  #10Robin on December 6, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    Its been quite a journey moving from who I was when I first started practicing the Tools to who Im called to be, a Goddess…

    I had a VERY interesting dream this week that sums it up for me..

    The guy who I was in love with when I started practicing the Tools was/is totally toxic for me (my ex, the musician I work with at church).

    And one of the guys im dating is incredible, and Im ‘s amazed at how EASY it is with him…and he’s the first guy since my ex that I have feelings for.

    In my dream, I was is in a group setting, at the state fair, and my ex was there, and so was this guy that Im seeing (there were others that I know, but I dont know specifically who..) Im finishing up a ride, and we’ve all gotten separated from each other.

    Just then I spot my ex who’s eating a corny dog. He offers to buy one for me, so we’re eating corny dogs, we’re flirting and laughing, and it starts to rain, so my ex pulls out an umbrella, its tiny, and puts it over his head, so Im leaning forward (haha), to get under the umbrella, and the rain REALLY starts coming down, my back is getting soaked, my ex isnt doing much to keep me dry. Im laughing and commenting on on how hard its raining, and he’s just looking down at his corny dog, not really paying me much attention, and Im starting to feel bad

    Im thinking ok, Im getting soaked, and A (the guy Im seeing) is not gonna be happy when he sees that my back is getting soaked…

    Just then, A comes out of nowhere, pulls me out from under my ex’s umbrella, and he opens this HUGE CUSTOM umbrella that opens sideways over my head, and it just covers me completely, and fans out about two feet around me.

    And Im so happy and I say thank you, and he smiles, and he has two teeth that are rotting…and he doesn’t look like he’s bathed… he just doesn’t look good to me (he actually didn’t look AT ALL like himself), he had taken on a different form, and just looked like a different person..

    And I can feel myself turned off, and Im looking at these two teeth and Im feeling disgusted, and out of the corner of my eye, I see my ex looking at me, and he walks away…

    So I look up at A, who’s still smiling ear to ear, and I say thank you several more times..

    And the next thing I know, it has stopped raining, and A has either gone off to look at something, or I have walked away…

    And I see my ex, but he is now a small African-American child, about 7 or 8. And Im hungry, so I go looking for him, and hes sitting at this little kiddie table in a kids room eating his corny dog, and he has a place setting set up for me, so I go in and sit on this tiny kiddie chair, and I ask him why he walked away when A showed up…

    THEN I WOKE UP!!!!!!!

    That sums it up..

    So A, even with his ‘flaws’ is still a man in his form, whereas my ex was reduced down to a child..

    And A was able to meet my needs, whereas my ex, not only wouldnt, but simply couldn’t…

    But Im feeling disturbed that I went looking for my ex…really disturbed
    And as Im recalling the dream, Im feeling concerned that A was suddenly gone after he gave me the umbrella….

    I feel happy to say though, A in real life, becomes better and better looking to me…

    And my ex just seems bland, not as appealing, and I can feel my feelings for him dissolving…

  11.  #11Daria on December 6, 2009 at 10:23 pm


    I just got a call from one of my men… and he told me that basically just happende to mention something that tells me

    that that money situation with guy who had a baby is basically taken care of!!!!



    omgod omgod


    thank you thank you tahnk you

    I spent hours in the car EFTing about it on saturday

    its been a weight on my heart and somehow… i got a lil glimmer of hope tha things would be allright

    i didnt know how…

    i was thinking i would have to wait till tuesday and work with the Lefkoe lady, and eliminate all my beliefs so that i would easily walk up to the front of his house and talk to him and his family!

    BUT ITS TAKEN CARE OF NOW! basically!!!!

    I feel joy so much juy it feels like throwing my head back and smiling at the sky and pressure in my sides of my moujth and lips of smiling

    i love my smiling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

    i love my neck craning in joy hheheheeh


  12.  #12Daria on December 6, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    now i can work with the lefkoe lady not only on that but also on beliefs about attraction!


    mega attraction here i come!!!

  13.  #13Daria on December 6, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    wow Robin nice@!!!!

  14.  #14Daria on December 6, 2009 at 10:26 pm

    lol maybe you went looking for him cuz you were circular dating and the umbrella A disappeared for a moment….

    so you Wont get hung up on him, but instead maybe even circular date your kiddie ex who can at least save you a spot at the table, even though he cannt fully meet your rain prevention needs

  15.  #15Robin on December 6, 2009 at 11:53 pm

    Daria thanks! I remember thinking in the dream that i was only gonna sit down w him long enough to eat & them go catch up w A. This whole dream felt very powerful!

  16.  #16Tracy on December 6, 2009 at 11:58 pm

    Your dream sounded beautiful….wow….
    It feels very settling.

  17.  #17Tracy on December 7, 2009 at 12:11 am

    I feel that being in a toxic relationship also means that i am toxic… the sense that i don’t love myself enough or mi feel not good enough…
    I feel resonance with this post and for me it took a while to actually realize that i was the one that needed to take care of myself…i had step back and look at my life and decide how much love i deserved and wanted to get…
    I feel that i was giving so much and receiving nothing and i actually believed that love was supposed to be that way…I neglected the things i loved to do and instead focused on making someone else happy and secretly hope he would make me happy…
    It looks obvious on the outside but my heart is still learning to accept it all….I still have beliefs that create fear and anxiety and the urge to lean to the past and ask the many why’s…
    I love that this community gives me the strength to know that i can do this…it feels encouraging to see everyone working on themselves…finding themselves…
    I feel that the beauty of life is expressed that way.

  18.  #18Mary on December 7, 2009 at 3:36 am

    Well, I felt really bad about myself, and then I got myself a toxic man, so then I had a reason. It felt so good to have a reason! I mean, if I hadn’t gotten the man, I would have only had myself, and my flaws, to deal with. And I probably couldn’t have handled it at the time. So the man’s toxicity was a scapegoat for me, so that I could be upset with him instead of with myself. I blamed him for all the pain then. And then he took himself right out of the picture, so I was stuck with me. And then I blamed him for even more pain. And then, one day, I just felt okay with me, because I was working on things. And miraculously, I dropped all the pining away for him. And then… I realized that the pain originating from me that I was trying to avoid (by getting a toxic man) was not as great as the pain that I experienced in a toxic relationship. So I dealt with the original pain by figuring out how to be single. Now I’m kinda loving being single, and my man is back. It doesn’t feel quite so bad this time, except that he’s rushing me. But I’m gonna give him my new speech.

  19.  #19Tina on December 7, 2009 at 7:53 am

    Are you “toxic” when you treat yourself badly?

    I have no idea if I’m toxic when I’m treating myself badly but, I’m going to say yes anyway, Just for the sake of argument. My toxicity level is extreme, really when I “go there” I feel the toxic crappy icky feelings, really , I really believe that my cesspool of icky feeling emotions should have a skull and cross sticker saying caution very dangerous for your health, wear gloves , mask when I go there. ew. If I were to get to the bottom of my icky feelings (im putting that mildly) my skin would crawl, I feel the searing pain physically , scraping at the bottom of my cesspool of toxic emotions/feelings, peeling away my skin, if I do not disturb the icky murky dark feelings at the bottom then I can move around lightly in my nicer better feelings, which isnt saying much, it’s still there, is it better to not disturb my toxic feelings nasty yucky feelings.

    Am I toxic when I treat myself badly? um yeah , I”m just going to say yup, uh huh most likely, I believe, mostly likely because I really dont know, I have past behaviours that say , yes, I do, so im just going to say yes. I could ask myself why am I treating myself so badly? beating myself up mentally is treating myself badly, when I make mistakes I beat myself up, I understand most of this is past history, growing up whatever, I just have to remind myself of it by beating myself up. I remind myself by feeling critical of my self in general, in small ways, I hang on to this like my life depended on it , it’s quite crazy actually. I protect it, I will even lie about it and tell myself im “working on it” when Im not, well long enough to give my toxic feelings some thought and change my mind, because I dont really want to go there, I’ll fool myself. Ok, now I have to go do something that feels good.

  20.  #20Tina on December 7, 2009 at 8:13 am

    lol, I just looked and saw that he is online on this dating site. I guess he is still looking lol, well with my cesspool of toxic feelings i’d do the same thing. We do have fun dates though 🙂 I feel good enough for me, my new normal is “good enough” for me. I hate my feelings of not feeling good enough lol, I really really really do. I hate you feelings! hate is a feeling, anger is a feeling self loathing is a feeling, im not denying my feelings, Im not going to respond outwardly to him, just that I hate my feelings of not feeling good enough. I’m going to swim in my “not good enough” cesspool. the gases from my pool will kill me lol, I wonder if It’s different if I just dive right in, maybe its just the smell haha. I feel nauseous.

  21.  #21Tina on December 7, 2009 at 8:28 am

    Pms, is not making things easier for me grrrrr.

  22.  #22Rachel on December 7, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Question… yesterday, my “ex” wrote me a short email to let me know that someone in his military unit had died. Said he just wanted me to know. I wrote a short email back telling him I was sorry and praying for them. This morning, he wrote again … told me a few details about the accident and thanked me for the prayers.

    NOW… technically it’s my “turn.” But he didn’t ask for anything back… didn’t ask how i was doing or anything. So I feel like I’m not invited to respond. But i feel kinda rude not writing anything back.

    UGH! I feel frustrated. It’s so hard to know how/when to respond. My instinct is to write and pour out love toward him… again! I gave and gave to him over the past year. But now that I’ve stopped giving, it still feels wrong. It is my nature to be a very open, loving person and this feels “unlike” me to be distant and wait on him.

    And yet it feel bad to give and give and receive so little back.

    Help? I don’t know if I should write again or just wait for him.

  23.  #23Mary on December 7, 2009 at 10:03 am

    Rachel – my opinion is that you might wait another day, and then tell him that you’ve been thinking about the situation, and you didn’t want to be redundant, so you didn’t say anything, but that you didn’t want him to think you didn’t care. (I don’t know why the secret formula of Rori’s is to talk about what you DON’T want, but it’s cute to be trying to rule out don’t-want’s by the process of elimination.)

  24.  #24Mary on December 7, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Tina – I’m really feeling for you, girly girl! I feel sooooooo sad about the way you’re feeling about yourself. It’s really hitting me, and I just want to come over and throw a pillow at you and tell you you’re a worthwhile human being, and no one can take away your value! My wish for you today is that your value and your true worth will come pouring out of you like a fountain of love, and it will spread happiness and joy to everyone around you. I’m hoping that you’ll see people – everyone, really – and be so fascinated that you’ll smile, and your eyes will twinkle, and you’ll make their day! Your value will recognize their value!!!!! Having desire and recognizing desire is fun and wonderful! But not always within our control. But having value and recognizing value is totally within our area of control! I always love it if I can get the ball into my court…

    Like I said before, my reaction to My Breakup was excruciatingly difficult. The worst thing about it was that I turned on myself. And I have analyzed it over and over, and I think that there were things I already hated about myself, and I used this guy as a witness. I interpreted the things he said as meaning that he didn’t care for the way I looked, my skin was too white, too much cellulite or whatever. And I looked in the mirror and saw ugliness, and I used his reactions to confirm it. And, though I have a way about me, and I can look very attractive sometimes, I know that I am not movie-star gorgeous. I always wanted to be! I wanted that so I could have power with men. Well, guess what? I can have power with men without that! Circular dating is so powerful that I’m struggling to handle it! It makes me feel WONDERFUL. So now I don’t need to be movie-star gorgeous any more! I’m so relieved and happy about that!

    And I also realized that hey! if it takes being movie-star gorgeous to keep a man, that is a lot of pressure. Do I want someone who is pressuring me all the time? I love clothes and makeup and all that fun stuff, and I love to look good, but I want the feeling that my man loves me when I’m not fixed up.

    I was in such a rut – pining away over not being as beautiful as I wanted to be. And then I looked at the stats on the movie stars – the ones who had all the power that I wanted – and their stats on keeping their men were no better than mine. So no guarantees out there!

    I would still like to be so beautiful that all men would want me. But… in reality, I’m not sure I would want to have that mantle on my shoulders. Then I’d never have any girlfriends, and I’d have the sneaky feeling that I was just wanted for the way I looked, etc., etc., etc. And looks are so skin deep.

    Here’s another thing: people who are super-beautiful – when someone gets to know them, sometimes it goes downhill, because expectations were so high. I think that since I’m not super-beautiful – when people get to know me, I have some room to wow them. People can start falling in love with the me that’s on the inside, because my detractors aren’t too powerful. So there’s a good side that I found for myself about not having all the power, and not being movie-star gorgeous.

    I want you to feel beautiful today. I really, really feel happy about thinking that there might be something you like about yourself, and you might turn your thoughts to that something… and you might recognize value everywhere you go… and that that value will reflect itself back to you…

  25.  #25Mary on December 7, 2009 at 10:27 am

    and I get it that you aren’t even talking about beauty! beauty is my issue. and it’s a big one for me. rejection, perceived or real, can really set it off. i’m just feeling for you because i’ve recently been in the cesspool. have a good day…

  26.  #26J on December 7, 2009 at 10:29 am

    I am in this same situation. He is married but was leaving her actually living somewhere else.But he is having a hard time with missing his kids. There is so much more going on but i am afraid someone who knows me will see this. I think he left me. I know what i need to do. It seems like i should make the decision to end this–he is not strong enough to do so. I wrote him a letter because when I talk I get all worked up and needy and scared. I do not want to lose him he promised he wouldn’t hurt me again. But he has and if we get back together he will do it again. In the letter i told him goodbye and we are done. If we are to move forward he has to come to me with divorce papers. I know im probably going about this wrong. And I have just started reading for post Rori and trying this stuff. The real reason I am writing is the pain just wont stop I want to go crying to him but I know I derserve better but i want him. He will never be able to love me completely i dont think. His ex, his kids will always be there and his parents hate me. Why can I not just let go? I feel strong then I feel like crying and begging him. “my Story” that runs through my head is that i am a loser and nobody wants me I am not good enough. People tell me i can do better then him anyways and i probably can. He knows everything there is to know about me everything and I am so comfortable with him in any situation. I dont want to have to get to know anyone like that again. Am i just lazy? I have rambled so much I don’t even know what my question is. Just help me fix me. I want to be happy. I am more masculine and stronger I don’t know how to let my feminine side out. I don’t really like her she crys too much. Am I just crazy?

  27.  #27Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 11:59 am


    true-true-true ;(

    I feel completely exposed reading your post. Beauty is great…but it fades on the outside…..and it does not feel good.

    I feel defensive instantly when a man claims to feel a certain way….I shake my head and sigh* but you don’t know me……how can you like me so much…..? You just like the way I look-you like the “idea” of me…..then you’ll see I’m human and move on to a “regular” girl. why waste my time……

    I felt a little triggered….maybe….shame? or embarassment?

    I feel like some men automatically don’t trust a very beautiful woman…..and it is so exhausting….I feel angry

  28.  #28Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    I want to be loved 🙁

  29.  #29Mary on December 7, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    hmmmmm… well, the upside to being very beautiful on the outside is that men are visual, and that’s how you reel them in. you can always work on the inside, and chances are, they’re HIS issues anyway. when my ex came back, i said, “well, what about when you told me you weren’t as attracted to me as you would like to be?” and he said that he WAS attracted to me, but he had a fantasy woman in mind that he’d had for years and years, and she didn’t look like me… even my hair was a different color… but he’s been looking and looking, and he says he’s not looking for her any more, he’s looking for me! is that bull or what?

  30.  #30Mary on December 7, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    and maybe you are so beautiful that it scares him… like maybe he might not be able to keep you. ooooooh, i would love to be that beautiful! i mean, i’m fine! everyone tells me i’m very pretty, and my features work well together, and i work on it, but there are those really, really beautiful women out there, like the ones in the magazines, and i would like to be one of those. sounds like you’re one of the rare ones! in fact, i’m thinking about writing a book and interviewing them to see what life is like for them! it seems like it would be so easy… but not? i’m soooooo curious… tell me more…

  31.  #31Tina on December 7, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    I love myself 🙂 I feel I deserve to hang out in my own company today. Going down in my toxic cesspool was no fun but yeah, I did some lower back yoga exercise, had a shower and I’m ready! If I abandon myself then wtf! lol

  32.  #32Mary on December 7, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    there is a femme fatale movie with a woman named nikita, and she was very, very beautiful! i’ll always remember the feelings i had when i saw that movie. like wow! a beautiful woman can do anything!

    but i’m working through it, like i said. i have to work through it from my side, so of course i’m going to look at the down side of beauty. that makes me feel better, as if it didn’t matter, when it does matter, but it shouldn’t! if you have beauty, you must experience those down sides, so i’m not going to take it personally that my post triggered you. there will be many, many readers who identify with wanting to be more beautiful.

  33.  #33Tina on December 7, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    life is great , I just needed a great mineral foundation 🙂 and a dip in my cesspool 🙂

  34.  #34Mary on December 7, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    oh, tina, have a lovely day! and i’m signing off as i must study… love, mary

  35.  #35Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    I only felt triggered because “we aren’t supposed to know how attractive we are”…..I feel secretive about my looks but………they’re great for a first date…..easy to reel men in-but frustrating too…some I can tell want to say more but don’t-they assume I wouldn’t be interested…or that I’m a “heartbreaker” or I just “play” with men….it feels very isolating….I have girlfriends but it is the rare girl who would let her guy “see” me. Some say, no-if he meets you he’ll fall in love and …blah,blah,blah-but that’s B.S. Sometimes…I purposely leave the house looking like a mess…..just to avoid attention…and I avoid eye contact…..I’ll wear sunglasses and a hat……if I’m meeting someone’s man-I make sure not to make an effort to be attractive at all-out of respect for her….weird-I know……but ultimately I feel ostrasized-everyone assumes I’m fine-and that life is easy and I have all of these men chasing me……some men won’t compliment me because they think everyone else is-so better not remind me….ugh! attracting is easy……but keeping…..I want to keep…….I feel embarassed…… even admit that maybe I’m very attractive….everyone has their own opinion of beauty so I’d rather not—but ……….well….I look a lot like a few movie stars…..which is ok-but, I want some movie star money 🙂 lol!!!!!

  36.  #36tinque on December 7, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Mary and anyone else who struggles with this “beauty” thing – The emphasis placed on a woman’s looks makes me feel very angry. “Movie stars” and “supermodels” are put on a pedestal. Many men take pride in dating a “model”, but I have to tell you that the vast majority of these women look like anyone else on the street.
    Yes there are a very, very few that are stunning to look at au naturel. For the rest, take away the make-up, the hair, the clothes, the lighting, the well placed poses, and most importantly photo-shop, what you are left with is just another woman, like you or me or any of the other women here.
    And all are goddesses in their own right. I can say that it’s who you are inside which counts, but you know that already.
    And men may be attracted to what he sees first, but if there’s nothing else to keep the attraction going, he’s out of there. And men see something very different than what we see. For example I can get all dressed up, the works, and think I look fabulous. Sure K thinks I look beautiful, but he thinks I look the most beautiful with NO make-up, hair all mussed up, glasses even, and preferably naked.
    So there you have it.

  37.  #37Mary on December 7, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    tinque – oh, if i only looked good naked! i try so hard! bootcamp at 6am, walking, walking, walking, running, really watching the food intake, eating good foods, EVERYTHING. being naked with a man is something i’d like to give, but it’s so DIFFICULT for me! or sex with the lights on! that would be so amazing! or feeling unselfconscious when i’m on top! oooooh, i can’t believe i said that!

    beautiful nikita – wow! thank you so much for the insight! can i interview you? I mean, really! i’d love to know more! i know that you are one of those rare beauties, because you know you are! people just know, because they’re looked at, stared at, hated and envied. i’m so sorry to contribute to that because i’ve done it, too!

    i think i might do the same as you – go incognito sometimes – and then really whip out the makeup and the dresses on other occasions! i do have a tendency to downplay myself, but did you ever see the movie “Evita?”
    She was criticized for wearing beautiful clothes, when everyone in the country was starving, and she said, “People need someone to give them hope, and people need beauty!” and that always stuck with me. Like – I’m a woman – so I try hard to look the best I can look, because women are beautiful! And I want to spread the joy around.

    Think about Lady Di. When she died, the whole world cried. She was a person that carried the projections of other people. She was beautiful – maybe not like you are, but in a way all of her own. And she was honest and told the truth as Rori is always telling us to do. And her life was terribly painful! So she carried the pain for all of us, and stayed in the public eye for all to see.

    If I were very beautiful, I’d try to figure out how to go ahead and accept the attention and projection of others. I’d work on values and whatever it is that make a person shine from the inside, and then… I’d just get out there with people and be genuine, loving and full of life!

    And I can do that even though I’m not very beautiful… so I’m writing this for you and for me…

  38.  #38Mary on December 7, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    and tinque, you are beautiful, too! i saw your picture… and i am very pretty. i’m just talking here! because sometimes i FEEL so unbeautiful. and i FEEL the importance that is placed on it… in the movie “Sophie’s Choice,” one of the actresses is talking to a man about beauty, and she says, “what is it, really? a centimeter here or there in the placement of an eye or an ear?” and that was soooooo true. just a little, bitty adjustment and the nose is perfect, or the eyes are just right, or the mouth is delicious… and for me to spend time and energy on wanting that small adjustment, so i can have POWER over people is just ridiculous. I know that i don’t really want power over people. i just want to be loved, like you do, nikita.

  39.  #39tinque on December 7, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Mary – Trust me. If a man loves you, you look beautiful to him naked no matter what you look like to yourself. They don’t notice the wobbly bits or the saggy parts. And that’s all we see. Go figure.
    A man will sense your self-consciousness, and that can be a turn off. Find the parts of you you can like, if only a little bit. Focus only on those parts for awhile. Play them up. Play with them.
    When you are with a man, or yourself, think about how gorgeous those parts are and how they must turn him (you) on. When this feels a little bit more comfortable, start loving on those parts you may not like so much.
    The more you work on your insides, the more your light will shine through, and that’s all people will see, at least the ones that matter. The rest…need I say more.
    You see all parts of you are YOU, and YOU are beautiful.
    As for being on top, it feels amazing. Your man can gaze up at you. His hands are free to explore. Believe me it’s a wonderful view for him. No matter what you think of your body.

  40.  #40Mary on December 7, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    oh! i’m on a roll, and i will quit soon, but one more OTHER thing… i read somewhere that most of us are looking for love. we’re looking for someone to love us instead of looking for someone to love! i like that idea…

  41.  #41Mary on December 7, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    thank you, tinque. i’m gonna try it. i’m looking pretty good these days, compared to other days in my life, so i’m gonna work on it. i do look rather nice in lingerie… must i really get naked? oh, it makes me feel so insecure, and so upset and worried when i think about parading around for someone. i wish so much that i had a BEAUTIFUL, GORGEOUS body, for just one day! or one night! and that i’d be with Mr. Right that night! haha! not so he would love me more, not so he would desire me more, JUST BECAUSE! because i’d like to give that to him!
    okay, i’m back to my obsession again.

    i will try, tinque. i will try…

  42.  #42Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 1:50 pm


    I agree with tinque about our bodies….YES YOU HAVE TO GET NAKED 😉

    I can feel completely confident naked but it may be because of that European thing growing up……it’s just a body…..a live body….nothing to be scared of 😉

    I love walking around naked……it’s just easier than hiding.

    Confidence is sexy…….I’d rather a guy who wasn’t perfect but jumped into bed with enthusiasm and a sense of humor—as opposed to some adonis who was “perfect” but wouldn’t get naked or take his shirt off-or just had to turn the light off…can you say….DEALBREAKER? if he can’t bring his whole self to the table then I’m feeling short-changed….AND I REFUSE TO BE SHORTCHANGED!!!!

    🙂 ha!!!! GET NAKED NOW……..AND RUN ME A BATH 🙂 !!!!

  43.  #43Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    I love my naked feelings 😉

  44.  #44Daria on December 7, 2009 at 1:52 pm


  45.  #45tinque on December 7, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    YES Nikita, OH YES!!!!! Bring on the nakedness…
    You know though Mary, I didn’t always feel comfortable being naked. It took a good man who made it obvious that he ADORED my naked body, and even then it took time.
    Now that I see changes, aging, I feel some concern, stress even. Sometimes I want to hide, but K doesn’t see or maybe just doesn’t care about what I notice.
    He said not long ago that he not at all worried about getting old, for he knows he’ll still find me adorable when I’m eighty and all wrinkly like a prune. (perish the thought) But you get my point.
    As Nikita said, when you can flaunt your naked flesh unabashedly, it doesn’t matter a whit what you look like. A man will appreciate and relish your comfort in your own skin, and he WILL be VERY turned on by it all, your body, your energy, all of you.

  46.  #46Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    back to beauty…….how many times have we witnessed a man cheating on his wife with a way less physically attractive woman??? that says it all to me. Beauty is no insurance policy or guarantee of security…..

    Tinque–I feel beautiful on the inside……and I have references 🙂 but …..I have been told in the past that certain men don’t want to deal with a woman who garners so much attention,….or who he perceives could replace him…….I know it’s HIS issue but I feel like I have to be extra selective so that it’s a non-issue……My last BF had tons of options so we felt equal…we both understood that looks were only skin-deep…..and we chose to be together….he also trusted me….which made it all easier……..he was a pretty confident dude

  47.  #47Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Nakedness is Hot…..I’ve been totally turned on by how men just get naked-no qualms—they’re just there, totally present. It’s a matter of conveying feelings….if we feel sexy,adored, desirable……they pick up on it.

    One guy I knew was turned on by dimples in a woman’s butt and thighs (cellulite) yes-he was married to my gf….she was really confident…..he watched a lot of porn, but she didn’t care…..and he was totally into her….and loyal…….she didn’t have too many dimples but he loved white pasty skin and red hair-she had that 😉

  48.  #48DocK on December 7, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Ahhh – the beauty quest – yes, as a female bodybuilder I know the dilemma.

    Beauty does attract us – we are all visual – women as well as men. But there must be more to it. If that is all that mattered, then Shania Twain would not have been cheated on, or Halle Berry, or Elin Woods or…. (the list goes on). I am not saying that these women have nothing going on inside. I am saying that for men that want to ACQUIRE a woman based on her beauty, someone to show off to their friends, then when the rest is not so compatible or they are bored and want something that isn’t even more beautiful – maybe even just different – these women get hurt too.

    Many beautiful women are very insecure. Beauty is fleeting and a woman that is in demand because of her looks – it is difficult for her to feel faith in much else about herself – all anyone ever focused on is her beauty.

    Tinque is right about all that goes into creating the illusion as well. I have lovely pictures of myself from various stages of my life – I had good lighting and photographers and so on. When I did my nude photos, I made sure that the retouching was at a bare (no pun intended) minimum because I wanted it to look like me. There was no photoshopping allowed and the pictures were not even digital.

    Even with bodybuilding – you literally train for 4 months (it’s mainly the diet and cardio – the weight training doesn’t change much) and try to time it so that you look your best THAT DAY and precisely in the morning when judging takes place. It is a very interesting little subculture. You certainly can’t walk around that lean year-round without drugs or you’d collapse.

    Yes, some men can be hard on us. But many men, they see beauty in women sometimes when even we don’t see it in our sisters. They’ll comment on, “Oh but those lips” or “I love her neck when her hair is up” and little details.

    I am hard on myself too – but I practice every day looking in the mirror and seeing not what is wrong but what is right. The more I do that with myself – the easier it gets and the more I see it in others.

  49.  #49tinque on December 7, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    so very true on the first part.
    as for the second part, you answered your own question if there indeed was one. It’s all about trust as you know, and if a man can’t handle his fears, then he’s not the man for you.

  50.  #50Jennifer on December 7, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    The thing about supermodels is that there are only like 9 of them and there are millions of the “rest of us” so how are they the thing to look up to? Seems to me they represent a vast minority.
    Plus they are not all that good looking really.
    Photoshop anyone?
    Goddesses…..I feel so nervous.
    I put up a profile on Eharmony. I got 14 matches right away! Quality guys too! They have jobs! Woo Hoo! one of them is a child therapist! Wow! how cool would that be!?!??!?!
    I put up some pics that a GF helped me pick out. I feel nervous now though…
    What if no one contacts me? Auggghhhhh
    nasty feelings!
    And I feel a little like I’m cheating on B. He said he wanted to try.
    But he hasn’t done anything. Hasn’t even tried to call me. I feel like crying now.
    I hate that stuck in my throat feeling.
    I feel like I’m saying goodbye. But I was so hopeful he would try. I really wanted him to reach out.
    I’m crying as I’m typing.
    This sucks.

  51.  #51Mary on December 7, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    okay, well… i’m with you, tinque. a man’s love of my naked body could help a lot. too bad i was rejected because i didn’t look like fantasy woman, who has dark hair and mine is light, who has dark skin and mine is light, who has muscular legs and mine are beautiful and slim – my legs are the best – who’s really short and i am average…

    maybe i need another man.

    rori, please tell us how to pick a good one! is it just how a woman feels when she’s with him? i mean, my man seems like a good one. but i’m embarrassed to get naked with him, although he would like that. he tells me that confidence is everything, but he rejected me way back when. too much rejection… it’s so hard to deal with, because i turn it on myself and look in the mirror and say, uh oh… i would reject me too, if i were him… but you know what? he has his own flaws… and i love him!

  52.  #52Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 2:56 pm


    your man sounds like a pisces….hmph! fantasy woman-huff!!!!! hmph!!!!!!!

    more in love with the fantasy of a person(relationship) than the reality……

    If it helps any…..I’m suddenly smitten by a blonde and I usually prefer dark features……who knew? I am crazy about the blonde(my first one) I’m smitten with his heart and who he is and how I feel….

  53.  #53tinque on December 7, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    No Mary – You were either rejected because you had already rejected yourself OR the man in your bed was not, well….good enough for you. No man worth anything would reject you for light hair, white skin, and average height. Or ANYTHING only YOU perceive as a flaw.
    The more you do this work on you, the more good men will be attracted to you. It really is that simple.
    I have an awesome man in my life. But I didn’t feel altogether safe with him or good within myself for a long time. Not because of anything he was or was not doing but because of me. He was always good to me, kind, affectionate, loving, attentive, and generous, but I
    I had deep stuff to unearth and release.
    The more I worked my stuff through and released my fears, the better I felt within me, the better I felt with him, the better he felt with me.
    The safer I felt within me, the safer he felt with me. The more I changed, the more he changed, and we grew more deeply connected, in all ways.
    We have an incredible, deeply, profoundly passionate bond. And it keeps getting better. It would not have become this had I not done MY work on ME. It might have still been nice, but certainly not what it is we have now.
    And by the way K LOVES my white skin.

  54.  #54Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 3:05 pm


    AND the not so funny hypocritical me totally treated him like……well, he is very good-looking…and I labeled him exactly what I feel hurt about….i felt he was too pretty for me…..I don’t “do” men that are “pretty” blech! so full of themselves….all these girls like you…so WHAT ARE YOU CALLING ME FOR?…..if you want a woman to fall at your feet cuz you are sooooooo pretty…..then you want shallowness….and I want deep…….

    then I realized how unfair I was being 🙁

    sigh* I love my hypocritical feelings….

  55.  #55Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    did someone pass nikita a mirror? darn’t!!!!!!!!! I feel crummy………I forgot the golden rule….and here it is IN MY FACE.

  56.  #56Mary on December 7, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    hmmmm… okay. i’ll be working on me today. unearth and release. that sounds great, tinque. happy for you and happy for your man!!!! looking forward to that kind of security someday.


  57.  #57Mary on December 7, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    awwwwww nikita, go easy on yourself and enjoy your pretty blonde man.

  58.  #58LJ-Please help on December 7, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Hi Rori and READERS…need help please…
    I am trying really hard to get myself together these days but the pain and anguish from my broken relationship is consuming me at times. We basically broke up (it was a bizarre situation) about 4 months ago.I was with this man for 4 years and I work with him. His office is literally around the corner from mine. He is black, I am white and he is much older than me. (this doesn’t matter but I just want to throw in some demographics here). The last year we were together, i always felt that something was “off”. Basically, i realize now that I sort of gave my power away to him. Last December, he got upset with me about something I found to be a minor disagreement and basically gave me the silent treatment for about 3 1/2 weeks and all through the holidays. I was shocked, felt abandoned, rejected and could not believe why, how, etc. he was doing this. Out of my emotionally chaotic state at the time and confusion, i did the typical thing some women would do..text him, call him, write a letter…he wound up finally talking with me and we went back to being with each other..looking back though, i realize i never fully got a real explanation (i got a b.s one) and he never apologized. That was in December of last year..After seemed that our relationship was “off”…we still had good times, but there was less calls from him…less affection throughout…i was the one always making plans with him..not the other way around…i was not being treated the same way that I was the first 3 years when everything seemed so great and we were so close and he would always go out of his way for me. I realized that months after this silent treatment incident that I had been walking on eggshells around him…that the relationship had changed….that i had really lost trust for him…and i wanted so badly for things to be the way they used to be so I was trying harder and harder, and in doing so was holding in alot of my feelings, and watching what I would say as not to “rock the boat” with him for fear of getting yelled out, him getting angry, and/or given the silent treatment by him…Throughout the time we were togethr…i have dealt with that silent treatment crap at least a few occasions..when he got mad…and i felt like i was abandoned, and disrespected each time……well…this past august…i went out of town, as did he…i went on a family trip..he was going to a wedding…and i realized that when he didn’t ask me to the wedding, and when he made no attempt to see me prior to me leaving town for 11 days when i clearly let him know I wanted to see him…that it was time to talk (clear the air of everything) and find out what the hell was up….I was scared in a sense to talk to him, b ut told myself I had to…see where we stood, etc….so i told myself i was going to talk with him when i returned from my trip….when i got back..we hung out a couple times..and then while we seemed to be on good terms..i called him..was pleasant and nice and said that I wanted to talk with him..told him i felt confused…disconnected and didn’t wanted to feel that way…and said i just wanted to talk about some things….wwell..upon getting of the phone he was suppose to get back with me the next day letting me know when we’d meet…he never did…a week went by and i was angry…i went into his office…confronted him about not getting back to me…we got in an argument…and that was that…4 months ago…For 2 months after that..i didn’t approach him or say anything to him…i figured that if he cared..he come after me…However…after about 2 months i periodically started texted him …wrote him a letter about the incident in his office….(non blaming..very neutral letter..)…in which he never responded…about a month ago..we were at a work party together…i was bold and went up to talk to him..(iwas being flirty…this is probably the stupidest thing i could of done..but hey…i still love the guy..4 years with him and i am so confused)…i pulled him on the dance floor that night for a song as well….after he left the party and after a few drinks..and me feeling a lil emotional..i wind up telling one of my ex’s friends) that I love my ex…(which is true)….well, obviously that I assume made its way back to my ex… 2 days later at work…my ex comes by my office and has a letter…he hands it to me and out of his mouth says..”special delivery”….I want to tell you what the letter said……..Here goes….(many words were cap..and underline…lot of anger)……..”We can never have the same type of relationship as we did before.”..”If You want to deal with me–here’s the deal!! “..1)” I will not promise to not mess around with other women..i did that for 3 years and received repeated accussations of f****** other women”….”Never again!!!!”….(note here…i only asked him about other women after the silent treatment episodes)……2) “We Can be F*** buddies, or Friends w/ benefits…or NOT!!!”, 3) “I Will Not be your Boyfriend…whatever that means….you see who you want as will I”,
    4) “we can be friends”, 5) “Whatever you decide, you owe me an apology for disrespected me in my office the way you did!”…………..this was the letter, word for word…and then he signed and dated it……..this was a month ago…i never responded or anything….i have just ignored him since then…but I’m telling you…it’s so painful…i have to hear him talkin g everyday…..he’s right there b/c we work together….I don’t understand this at all how someone who you’ve been with 4 years and you thought you had something special with can treat me this way….I loved this guy…never did him wrong….you would think that when your with somone a long time and even if the relationship was going to end or he wanted it too…that two people could have an adult, mature conversation…that’s all I wanted…or needed..if that was the case…there was no talk…no closure…no resolution…nothing…just him blowing me off when i wanted to talk and an argument…and them him treating me in this cruel, degrading way….i am heartbroken still after 4 months….i hate him…i love him..i’m clear on things…then I’m confused…it’s just this huge shock element…it’s enough to drive a person insane…..lately…i am not only angry with him but am angry with myself for putting up with some of the b.s. i did over the last few months we were together….but I am really angry at myself for not responding to that letter…i had friends telling me that it would be best to ignore it, and others telling me to write something…’s been a month….and a part of me feels like it’s too late to write him something…lbut I’m telling you…i feel so violated, and angry, and emotional abused from this situation and I feel like in not responding to him that I looked weak and he seems to walk around the office acting like he doesn’t have care in the world…I wonder if he ever did care about me….over the last several months i have been working on me…and when I see him lately i don’t say anything…if he says hi..i say hi back…but that’s it……i’m trying to empower myself again…but I can’t shake the feeling that he wrote that letter to show control, dominance, and totally devalue me for some reason…and i feel like he’s “WON” in some sick sense in his mind because i didn’t say anything back….it’s so hard working in the same environment with him while I’m trying to heal….does anyone have any words of wisdom, or can anyone relate to my situation…i’m struggling and would just love to hear from some of the readers and what you would do…if you would respond..say something…etc…….thank you so much……

  59.  #59Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 3:30 pm


    thx, but I was a real bitch……. I kept laughing inside while he pursued me… that I like him……he feels apprehensive that I might hurt him……again 🙂 ooops….
    I’m sorry, was that your heart I just tripped on??? my bad…I didn’t see it laying on the floor under my robe…….can I help you with that?….oh… don’t want me to touch it now???…..ok……well, I have band-aids in my purse-help yourself 🙂

    I’m still feeling smitten by the pretty blonde one though……..very smitten….

  60.  #60Daria on December 7, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    Im drinking red clover blossom infusion!

  61.  #61Mary on December 7, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    you are too funny. he’s a man, and a beautiful one at that. he’s geared for all that tripping around. just curious: what did he smite you with?

  62.  #62Mary on December 7, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    i’m gonna go get a passion tea lemonade… cheers!

  63.  #63Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Mary!!!! hahahahahahaha smite me!!!!!hahahaha….

    mmmmm…..let’s see if I can answer……he smited me with his obtuseness….or forgetfulness……

    • ( be smitten) be strongly attracted to someone or something : she was so smitten with the boy.

    1 he was smitten with cholera struck down, laid low, suffering, affected, afflicted, plagued, stricken.
    2 Jane’s smitten with you infatuated with, besotted with, in love with, obsessed with, head over heels; enamored of, attracted to, taken with; captivated by, enchanted by, under someone’s spell, moonstruck by; informal bowled over by, swept off one’s feet by, crazy about, mad about, keen on, hot on/for, gone on, sweet on, gaga for.

    Great point though…….I guess, I’m still crushing…….or…..

    ummmm……I feel completely tickled that he got through the moat…..and scaled the walls of my heart….I feel happy….and if it’s not him that is “my forever” then I’m a lot closer than I’ve ever been……I feel really good feeling 100% interested and yet ok-…….with keeping my options open….but I feel great to have made up my mind-FINALLY 😉

  64.  #64Mary on December 7, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    wow wow wow wow wow! that is so cool. that makes me feel soooooo good inside. 100% interested? oh my. you are moonstruck.

  65.  #65Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    I love that movie 🙂 Moonstruck,……………………………….maybe I’ll download it :))))

    or watch La femme Nikita/ my roomie has it-I’ve never seen the French version—maybe it’s time.

  66.  #66Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    here’s my romantic story, and why i’m bamboozled by my guy – “under his spell”:

    after we got back together last month, he’s been talking marriage. i referred negatively to some ads that he had put on craigslist and said i was keeping my options open. he was getting very agitated, and i didn’t hear from him for a few days. so i checked craigslist, and there was an ad there, from him for me:

    “I want to hold your hand so you are safe. I want to make love to you where ever we want to. You are the woman who has made my heart feel empty when I haven’t seen you for awhile yet you fill my heart when I know we are together. There is no substitute for you no matter of my past. My body feels true comfort and love when I hold you. My thoughts for you are like no other. When I see you move it is an expression all of its own. When I see you at all my body chemistry takes on a new life. When I hear your voice it touches my heart and soul. I look into
    your eyes and hope I still see love for me. I would take care of you and we would walk together, learn
    from one another and grow until death does part us. The pain I have from not being with you I can
    only see as something to learn from, or else the pain makes no sense at all. I can travel the world and
    be miles apart and you are but a thought near. I wish I could travel with you, eat breakfast with you,
    walk beside you. I wish we could be with each other and both of us would know that there is no one
    else ever. I know life will never be as fullfilling and meaningful unless we are together. We both value
    similar things and I want you to be my partner. We are a match and our differences are our strengths
    to help each other. I picture you in my dreams, in my life, and I want to be with you for the rest of my
    life. Love like this happens but once in a lifetime if we are lucky. I have faith in you. I love you. You
    are the Love of my life.”

  67.  #67Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:22 pm

    and you know, one of my friends thought it was weird that he put it on craigslist, but since it was such a sore spot between us, the whole scenario had now been transformed into something else…

  68.  #68Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    but I feel weird….why post that instead of sending it?

  69.  #69Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    well, it’s one of those things we did… when we weren’t together, we’d check up on each other. you know? yeah, it was really weird. maybe i need to start over. he’s such a keeper in a lot of ways. he’s really different. very unusual.

  70.  #70Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    but there was something amazing about it too, because i was thinking about him, wishing for him in the middle of the night, probably blogging on this site, and suddenly… there is was! a public expression of love… looking for me instead of looking for someone else… i don’t know. it makes sense to me.

  71.  #71Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    oh I see….but why did you break up in the first place?

  72.  #72Melanie on December 7, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    Omg, Mary, I feel wonderful about what he did for you and the way he did it! It does not feel weird to me. It feels special and romantic.

  73.  #73Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    but it’s just so soon… i don’t feel like i can trust it… daria said it so beautifully. i’m thinking of giving him her speech and dating others, but this was so beautiful, it stops me in some way. hard to figure out if he’s a good man or not. if he’s for me or not. too soon. too soon.

  74.  #74Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    we broke up because we’d get close and he’d pull away, and he did that over and over, and i decided i couldn’t marry him, because i LOVE sex

  75.  #75Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    mel – it did feel really special and very romantic !!!!! kind of a secret between us, but i just got carried away when we were talking about smitten and wanted to share it

  76.  #76Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    he thinks i’m soooooooo different than i was before, and he says he has given up fantasy girl and that i’m his fantasy girl, and it has been different with us…

  77.  #77Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    Oh….I hate that……I need sex on a regular basis and I feel very angry with a man who pulls away or shuts down………very angry…..I dumped my ex for the same thing…a few other things-but that was the biggest…I need consistency…

  78.  #78Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    yes, i wonder if it could be different, after a year or two, when the newness wears off; would he pull away again? that’s why it’s too soon, but how will i know? is this a toxic man? oh, i love him so much.

  79.  #79laughing goddess on December 7, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Ha ha! I just got a new appreciation for circular dating!

    I am in the process of buying a car and what I did was find the exact model I wanted that would work for my lifestyle. I came up with a list of options that I must have…basically 4 wheel drive in this particular make and model. Then I found three of those exact cars in colors that I like and then I negotiated with all three dealers to find the best price. The great thing about it is I would be happy with any of them. They all meet my basic core needs. I don’t feel attached any of them in particular…just waiting to see which dealer makes the best offer. I can’t lose on the deal and because they know I am looking at other cars, they are motivated to give me the best deal.

    I can see how this is exactly like circular dating! I feel so much more understanding of how the process works! I love it.

    p.s. I am waiting to hear back from the from one dealer and then I will make the decision. I feel so excited to be getting a new car!!!! Weeeeeeeeee!!!

  80.  #80tinque on December 7, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    Mary – Those were beautiful words, but because of my history, I’m wary of beautiful rhetoric that feels too much to me and too soon as you say. If you are feeling this much hesitation, then trust your instincts. It doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not the one, but take it slowly. If he’s the one he will be okay with slowly.
    If you feel this strongly about him though and don’t really want to circular date, then don’t. If circular dating feels good and feels right for you right now, then do it.
    I have never circular dated (though it wasn’t called that when I was available). It never felt right to me, but that’s me. It’s a wonderful way of doing things for a great many women. This you have to decide for you.

  81.  #81tinque on December 7, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Congratulations laughing goddess. New cars are SO fun…

  82.  #82laughing goddess on December 7, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Daria: Congrats on having sex!!!

    I feel happy for you and a little envious 😉

  83.  #83Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    I want a new car!!!!! Yayy!!!!! 🙂

  84.  #84Mary on December 7, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    mmmmmm tinque, this is good advice. it feels good. it feels peaceful. i’d like to just see if things could work. just give it some time. afraid he’ll lose interest, but maybe i need to risk it. i’m a person who needs to be married. i like that little piece of paper. so what’s six months to devote to him to see if it’ll work on this side of it? that’s what people are doing when they live together. maybe it is appropriate to be exclusive in this case… ????

  85.  #85Linda on December 7, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    Jennifer, I read your post. I have done just what you are doing . It is the right thing. The stuff you are feeling is normal. It is a very hard thing to do, let go of a dream or something that we have wanted. It makes it harder when the person we wanted to be with encourages us with words but does not act on them. I have been here and done this. It is a grieving. Loss is loss. Feel those feeling and cry. It is healthy. Moving from something to something, even if we dont feel like we want to do it is healthy. I can remember the first man I spoke to online, I cried and cried the whole time I was typing because it was not who I wanted to talk to. I am a year down the road from that point. Much growing and learning has happened. I am so glad I made myself get online and move WHere I was felt soooo bad. The journey has been a challange but I feel so much better about me now. You will to, trust the process.

    Please use the websites as a vehicle, invest your energy into you. I mistakenly put hope in finding another man feeling that would help and make it all better. In reality I am still waiting on the man, but it is all better now because “HE” (whom ever he is) is not my focus anymore. I am my focus and being happy with myself and being me is now. Now I will be able to see him when he appears.


  86.  #86Mary on December 7, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    i love new cars too! you’re gonna have that new car smell!

  87.  #87gina on December 7, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    I feel better, WAY better, when i can find a REASON to. After discovering that Johnny is most likely a compulsive liar, I learned that compulsive lying goes along with a personality disorder, such as Narcissism or Borderline Personality Disorder. I looked up BPD and found that it is thought to originate with trauma that happens between the ages of 2 and 3, when a child realizes that the mother needs certain behavior from the child for the sake of their own self esteem. the child abandons their own emerging self, and begins to adopt a false self to please the mother. This results in a feeling of emptiness in adulthood, a lack of identity, and an inability to develop meaningful relationships. Johnny had shared with me that his only memory of his father is from when he was 2 and a half – his dad had been abusive to his mother, so his mom held a knife to the dad’s throat and told him never to return. that was the last time johnny saw his dad. and now I feel 100% percent fine with not hearing from him. I feel appreciative of the good things about him, and compassion for the troubled spots. I feel like I got lucky to have some REASON to feel better – I had a hard time finding peace without a reason.

  88.  #88Jennifer on December 7, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Linda (that’s my fav aunti’s name)
    Thanks soooo much for your comments.
    I have several friends who have told me the same thing. But I sometimes reckon that because they love me they want to say whatever would make me feel better.
    To hear it from someone who has been there and is not invested in my future sure does help.
    I am a nervous wreck right now. I am soooo worried that no one will contact me online.
    But to be fair to me I am sick with a sinus infection and the accompanying antibiotics which are upsetting my stomach so I’m edgy.
    I believe that this will go well.

    thanks for your kind words.

  89.  #89Linda on December 7, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    I watched Dr Phil today. It was right in line with this post. I we are in a toxic or going no where relationship then the first thing to look at is what is our limiting self belief that causes us to attract or invite these kind of relationships. ….. It is about self esteem and what we believe we deserve. As I heard some of the comments and struggles that these women were dealing with, I felt WOW… if have learned so much this year. I feel so much smarter and strong. Directive I would say. WHY IN THE WORLD DID I EVER give someone else POWER of me and my happiness?

  90.  #90gina on December 7, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    last night I met a man from online. we went to have drinks at a nice hotel. there were no fireworks, but it was pleasant. he spontaneously decided to treat me to a meal at the nicest restaurant in town. It was such a treat! It felt like the basic lack of real interest was mutual, but he seemed in the mood for some excitement, and I feel lucky that I got to join in. it was fun. tonight, I spoke with a man on the phone from a dating website, and he sounds SO GOOD! I look forward to meeting him.

  91.  #91laughing goddess on December 7, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Thanks ladies!!! I feel so excited. I have been driving a beater for a while and it feels so great to treat myself to something nice. Plus the money to pay for it showed up unexpectedly which is very very nice.

    Thank you thank you thank you angels!

  92.  #92Linda on December 7, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    Jennifer you are welcome. It does not matter if anyone contacts you….(yes that would be great) dont get me wrong…. what matters is that you get to choose. You have taken the power away from B… and him deciding if he wants to be with you. Take that power back…NObody but you gets that power. You get to decide who gets a chance to make you happier. Yes I said happier, not happy. It is never a good thing to give someone control over your happiness especially if they deciding if they want to be with you or not. Thinking about what they are thinking is overfunctioning. I did this and sitting around and waiting for someone else to decide if they want to be with you is giving them control over you. I STOPPED that and it will never happen again. If a man does not keep his word, trys to manipulate me in anyway, or is not giving me what I am looking for…. He is not worthy of my attention.

    I just read on hear….. never make a man a priority in your life when he has made you an option in his. WINK

    Hugs to you honey…. Stay the course

    None us know what tomorrow will bring or how things are working in other peoples lives.

  93.  #93Mary on December 7, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    so… linda, how do you take the power back?

  94.  #94Jennifer on December 7, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    the universe works in synchronicity.
    As I was blogging and checking out dating sites. B decided to start talking to me on MSN
    previous to this he would not initiate convo

  95.  #95Flipper on December 7, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    Nikita – I know what you mean about the European thing. When I got over here, someone said to me “what is it about you Americans being all hung up about naked bodies? – we ALL have one!” That was a good trigger for me, and helped a lot feeling more at ease in my own body. Plus being loved physically and allowing myself to Feel their love for my body.

    Mary – Rori wrote some posts last year about feeling more Goddessy in our bodies. Things like walking around naked by yourself in your own home. One girl wrote in about a candlelit picnic on her living room floor she gave herself – in the nude.

    Men know that women’s bodies attract them because they are intrinsically beautiful to them. Leaning forward to ‘teach’ them that ours is not because of this cellulite or that flab is a double no-no: It’s not true, but he will believe us!

  96.  #96Daria on December 7, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    Thanks LG ! yay!

    I find myself ready to do it again today… hehe…

    Im thinking and fantasizing about him a lil bit

    Just a lil bit tho haha

    Im interested in goint to do my task for today which is go to Barnes and Noble and practice some LSAT logic games problems

  97.  #97Daria on December 7, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Sex also has me thinking back to man who had a baby, and how, although i don’t remember much, i remember it felt so good with him! I don’t think i was hurting much like I have with other men, and certainly not feeling bored…

    it was like “perfect” i dont know what it was, maybe the tempretaure or energy of his papi thang, or maybe he just knew how to do that

    i want to feel wonderful having sex like that! yay!

  98.  #98Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 6:15 pm


    nice…..reminded me of something; I used to masturbate in a mirror 😉 by candlelight 😉 with good music after dancing around…..naked 🙂 (I was 23) T.M.I. I know but…….those were good times……I highly recommend it….It feels like a re-wiring……a self bonding thing….I was newly single and determined to have the most explosive-and BETTER sex life without him…….good thing too…after a summer of that I could DO a lot more …..forgot about that summer…..huh- I guess it is what tinque said…….well, my orgasms are a lot more flexible now……

  99.  #99Mary on December 7, 2009 at 6:18 pm

    Thanks Flipper, I’m gonna read those posts. I’ve been sleeping in the nude and walking around naked in my place for a while – it feels good! Doing that with someone around will take a little more courage, but I’m practicing. I’ll find those posts and read them. Maybe I’ll get a tan! Or SOMEthing… or maybe I can just experiment around with candles and gradually turn up the lights… or maybe not!

    You know, my parents used to be very immodest. They used to walk around in the nude. Or I’d be in their room, talking to them, and they’d suddenly start changing clothes in front of me! And I found their bodies to be… normal, but not beautiful. And I am hung up on beautiful. (I’m a photographer.) So I got very modest. I didn’t want anyone thinking about me what I was thinking about them. Oh, I’m sorry mom and dad! I love you! And their bodies weren’t so different than mine now…

  100.  #100Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    Oh, and just to be totally graphic 😉

    It was a full length mirror…and when I peaked, I made eye contact with MYSELF 😉 yeah baby-hot!


  101.  #101Daria on December 7, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    you gon think you gon think I invented sex

  102.  #102Daria on December 7, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    gasp ! nikita what a WHORE!

    lol JUST KIDDING!!!

  103.  #103Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    hahaha 🙂 I KNOW !!!!! making love to all those mirrors and all my varied selves!!!! How dare I 😉 I love my self-love sexy mirror feelings….

  104.  #104Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 6:29 pm


    since your parents are so …..relaxed…..could you be …..rebelling….? secretly? by being different from them?

    just curious 🙂

  105.  #105Flipper on December 7, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    Good for you Mary . It feels like there’s a key in what you wrote about your parents. But you’re grown up now, and no longer have to differentiate from them, or protect your privacy or whatever ….. Time to bask in our own intimate splendor, with the person of our choice.

    Good for you, too, Nikita and Daria, I feel envious. Gonna go feel myself nekkid unner me nighty.

  106.  #106Rori Raye on December 7, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    LJ, Welcome, and I’m so sorry you’re enduring all this pain, and I’ve written about this before – and perhaps it deserves some serious post time – so I’m going to jump off into a new post for you…Love, Rori

  107.  #107Daria on December 7, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    im feeling so good!!!

    im thinking about “guy who had a baby” and dreaming of all these nice things that he does to me!

    maybe im gonna get to feel loved like this sooon!!! YEASSS

    also maybe it means hes thinking of me hahahaha

    cuz i notice when they randomly pop in my head (im psychic) then they pop up in real life


    Tomorrow I am going to work with the Lefkoe lady and one of the beliefs i want to clear is:

    ook a bunch of them he listed in this email as pertaining to relationships:

    The type of man/woman I would want wouldn’t want me.

    I’m not what men/women want.
    Any man/woman who would want me, I wouldn’t want.

    oooh i just found some other good ones here:

    Anger is dangerous.

    Confrontation is dangerous.

    It’s dangerous to express my feelings.

    yes yes yes!!!!


  108.  #108Mary on December 7, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    hey maybe so. i never thought of that. makes sense.

  109.  #109Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 6:51 pm


    WOW….OUCH, I applaud you for being able to go a whole month without saying anything….If he was doing business with you and that was a contract…would you sign it??? I wouldn’t feel like acknowledging it at all. I’d start sending out my resume….not to leave-but just so you have options to get out of that environment when you feel good and ready……unless your ex’s boss is cute 🙂 and interested…hehehe…….

    I feel supportive and I hope you can heal….I want better for you….

  110.  #110Mary on December 7, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    hello LJ… i’m sorry, i totally missed your post! what I did was fast forward down to what I had written, and yours got in there somewhere above it! sorry to have ignored you and just gone on and on and on… had some time this afternoon. yours is a very painful situation. glad rori will address it.

  111.  #111Linda on December 7, 2009 at 7:34 pm

    Mary you ask…getting your power back?…. Look inside , do you feel you deserve?.. to be respected, truely cared for and happy? Do you like and love yourself? What does your self esteem level look ?….. When you get these things in place…. (mine started with a post here “painting yourself with love”) If you treat yourself well, you wont let anyone else treat you poorly.

    Start there


  112.  #112Rori Raye on December 7, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    J – Welcome. Yes, you are right – divorce papers are required for any man you date. Period. I’m sorry you got involved with this one. The problem now is your emotional and mental state. How do we help you get stronger? Here are some ideas: Therapy, Life Coaching, Hypnotherapy….and eat differently. I’d be willing to bet your blood sugar is off and your hormones are whacked out. This is a job for any of the amazing people I recommend – and – oh…

    I just asked her if it was okay, she said yes, so you can now talk to my daughter Gemma, who’s fast becoming an expert on hypoglycemia, because she’s a genius and is working it out for herself right now…actually…I’d like to recommend Gemma to anyone for all kinds of help…she graduated from UCLA in psychology in June, and she’s been into the Enneagram Personality System (let her tell you about it) for years and years, in fact she’s come up with her own test to discover your Enneagram type and how to use that knowledge to help yourself in so many ways. She’s an amazing, insightful young woman with a very real healing energy. You can email her at (see a picture of her at, and she’ll email you her Enneagram test to take and then spend some time with you on the phone with your results. If you think you have a blood sugar problem (J – I really do, just from listening to the stress you’re feeling and how it’s bouncing you around), she’ll talk with you about how to deal with food, the whys and hows of dealing with hypoglycemia. She’s not licensed in any way, so she’d be happy to talk with you on a donation basis (Paypal). If you want my list of other practitioners, let me know, I’ll put up a post of my personal resources…

    Your goal here, J – is to drop this man entirely from your life (don’t try to erase him from your heart…just your actual, physical life..), and get yourself moving to your Happy Ever After. Read everything you can here, use all the Tools (you’ll find out how to “Riff” and “Channel” here – that will help you..).and keep talking to us all…we’ll help you. You can do this!

  113.  #113Nikita on December 7, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    uh, yeah……so about the post. I keep it simple….I intend to be married…so if I meet a man who is already married-then he is unable to meet my needs…which makes him a dead-end….so when I hear that he is separated I say-how interesting but you are still under contract regardless of what your penis thinks or does… since you are still technically married…..I’m going to go talk to that single guy….I have a feeling he’d be a better gamble than a man who is already MARRIED. Keep it Simple

  114.  #114Lisa on December 7, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    Rori asks about toxicity:

    I have been dating a guy on-and-off (due to his disappearances) for almost 8 years. He cheated on me this summer once that I know of. I still went back. Thought I’d reckoned with everything, and just took a “drive-on” attitude.

    This weekend, he takes me to see a condo he might buy, and asks if I wouldn’t want to live there. This man who stood me up on my birthday last month, who has returned my clothes to my house numerous times (so that I now leave almost nothing at his house), who I only overnight with a few times a month. What might have been happy, say, five years ago, triggered an immense negative reaction in me.

    Such a deep reservoir of hurt, anger and disappointment that I had no idea I harbored has been triggered. Talk about a toxic soup — in my own heart! When he drove me home this weekend, I simply thought, “How can you have been so cruel to me?” It seems I was o.k. with just “hooking up” a few times a month, on the superficial level he allowed. But when I consider the reality of ever trusting this man in any way, my emotions explode!

    I do not want to see his face now. This is so different from the past 8 years, when I would always be the one to call, email, suggest getting together. There is the issue of a work project we share, but things can go to just the work level; they have been there before.

    I am interested in releasing this anger and hurt over my repeated and long-term betrayals.


  115.  #115Daria on December 7, 2009 at 9:17 pm

    Mary –

    posts from a new e-mail address have to be approved by Rori, so that’s why they sometimes pop up in the middle of the thread later…

  116.  #116Daria on December 7, 2009 at 9:22 pm

    Awww J –

    hehe I didn’t like my feminine side out cuz she cried so much!

    now i LOVE crying

    and no I don’t feel any “weaker” I’ve kept all the strength I had and even more!!

  117.  #117Mary on December 7, 2009 at 11:54 pm

    Well, thank you Daria. I thought I was a lil bit crazy, not seeing either L J’s or J’s posts. And we were talking about such light stuff.

    L J and J: you guys are suffering big time! I’m so sad about your situations! It’s easy to see from the outside, and easy to say “lose the guy,” but the heart wants what it wants! I hope for a big recovery for each of you.

    L J, I hope you can get in touch with some anger so that you can be filled with energy that is directed outward!

    And J: I agree with everyone. Married is married. I know this because a woman came and seduced my husband away when he was feeling down. I was more upset with her than I was with him. For him it was understandable. He was going through a lot of stuff and then his mother suddenly died. But for her, it was just plain low that she listened to whatever he had to say about his marriage. He was still in my house and he was married to me. End of story. She should have acted horrified that he would come her way at all in that situation.

    Linda, than you for the suggestions. I’ll be looking inward and making some changes!

    Lisa – wow! what a situation! I’m not liking your guy at all. Sex can’t be THAT good! I want someone better for you.

    Tinque, thank you for your wisdom. And Daria, thank you for the speech! I still love it! Might use it… haven’t decided.

    G’nite… nice talking to you today, Nikita…

  118.  #118Daria on December 8, 2009 at 12:38 am

    wow hehe

    triggered no end heree hehheeee

  119.  #119Daria on December 8, 2009 at 12:41 am

    i personally would not want to be thinking about another woman or her feelings when a man is interested in me…

    ive noticed that’s not across the board…

    some people seem really concerned with the “other woman”s feelings

    i figure… well i don’t know her nor am i trying to…

    but hey we are all different

    im coming from a place where i used to be dismissive of women in generall

    i definitely feel triggered by the idea of blaming “the other woman” for what relationship a man may have with her

    but hey

    i would kick her ass maybe but i wouldnt do it cuz i thought was her fault… more to “scare her away” lol

    i feel triggered, triggerrrerd hehee

  120.  #120Daria on December 8, 2009 at 12:42 am

    that is unless shes my friend or best friend lol

  121.  #121Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 12:54 am

    I feel like if every woman respected vows made in the name of God the world would feel safer and children would be cared for…….I feel like as women we have dropped the ball……

    there’s a quote I bet Flipper or Dock could help me with……but I think it goes;

    “there’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women”

    -not sure who said it-madeline albright or margaret thatcher–dunno…….feel free to jump in with some fine tuning here……

    I could’ve swiped a few husbands…I chose to avoid the mess his poor leadership would surely create in my life………why settle for crumbs of another when I can expect the best and get the real thing?

    I mean…what does that say to our spirit? I can only handle “half the man” so that’s all ?????? REALLY?????

    How can we be believer’s in a vibe and not feel that what we sow we reap????

    why would we drive 90 miles an hour through a dead-end????

    Death-wish? defeatist? ego? why take the “low road” why co-sign disrespect……when we get what we give???

  122.  #122Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 12:56 am

    Nite Mary 🙂


  123.  #123Daria on December 8, 2009 at 1:27 am

    i would not date a married man cuz that wouldn’t feel good to me…

    i do not want to take on the responsibilty for the feelings of a woman who i do not know and don’t wish to …

    not at the expense of my own feelings and desires

    i think ive done something like this before and kinda regret it

    im no longer interested in putting other people, especially strangers, ahead of myself

  124.  #124Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 1:30 am


    I love the idea of re-establishing your boundaries. I feel like you are remaining open to him with your heart….If he wants to step-up, and keep his word of getting a divorce then he can be trusted and he respects you more…If he doesn’t step-up and goes back on what he said…you saved yourself years of more heartache and disappointment …it feels strong……I feel good forgiving myself if maybe I wasn’t as strong as I wanted to be…or if I even made a mistake…..or hurt myself….it’s ok-

    the definition of a champion is a person who gets back up even if life knocks you down 😉

    I feel supportive and I hope Rori gives you lots of love and encouragement….I feel proud that you spoke up.

  125.  #125Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 1:33 am

    I empathize Daria….totally….I feel hungry 🙁

    I want Italian…..chicken parmigiana 🙁 NOW =

    I feel hungry….and I want to go home…..I could have it right now if I was back home 🙁 I miss my instant gratification city 🙁

  126.  #126Daria on December 8, 2009 at 1:34 am

    i feel kinda defensive

    i feel protective … i dont feel i have dropped the ball nor do i feel that women in general have

    i feel glad for the opening of womanness and the possiblity that i have found in my own opening

    i feel sad that i have talked myself out of consumating my own pleasure because a man was dating some other woman…

    as if he was hers like an owned thing

    when he was asking me for me

    i feel glad i have not wanted to date married men

    i feel different about non married men hehe…

    i felt i wasnt good enough for him to want to be with me, he wanted her

    tho he said he wanted me


    i feel glad i trust my own feelings of whats good for me will prevent me from hurting others as well

    i feel glad i only have to be loving towards me and that in itself can spread love around me and around the world

    i feel glad i dont have to deny myself


  127.  #127Daria on December 8, 2009 at 1:36 am

    aww nikita!!!
    i want u to have chicken parmigian

    i want to see if theres an all nite pizza delivery place where you are…

    they perhaps have chicken parmigian and can deliver… or perhaps a chicken parmigian pizza will satisfy that desire too…

  128.  #128Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 1:38 am

    Daria; for you 🙂

    it’s the middle but- I thought of you….the whole “beliefs” thing 🙂

  129.  #129Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 1:40 am

    No 🙁 they closed two hours ago 🙁

    I might have a big italian meal for breakfast tho 🙂

  130.  #130Rhonda on December 8, 2009 at 1:57 am

    Yes it does! I have been miserable for
    The past 7days. I had a one night stand
    7 mos ago and ended up him was married.
    A month ago his wife found out and she
    Confronted me. I admitted to it cuz by that
    Time the passion was gone & I really paid attention
    And saw he was very toxic and addicted to
    Whores and craigslist. His wife left but she
    Is weak & will come back! He first wanted to see
    Me more but then I saw him! I saw him screwing
    A whore and eventually told me how amazing
    She was! I was angry, hurt, devastated!
    And mainly felt foolish! Y did I stay n that toxic
    Relationship? He wasn’t the hottest guy or
    Biggest unit I ever had? But there was this
    Connection during sex, like he craved me &
    Maybe that kept me seeing him? He has
    Basically slapped me n the face several times
    So y do I still crave him?and hate him? I’m
    So lost and ashamed

  131.  #131Mary on December 8, 2009 at 7:03 am

    hey nikita, i watched that bashar download. my new belief: my naked body is beautiful. my naked body is something wonderful to share. i love my naked body.

  132.  #132Mary on December 8, 2009 at 7:19 am

    okay, now i feel triggered.

    so i went out of town to visit a friend for three days. my husband went to a series of one-act plays that were going on all around town. he met a woman there. they talked. they went to coffee. he told her he was married. she said, “well, i don’t want to be the other woman.” he kept in touch with her by phone. two weeks later they were living together in one of our condos. it was on the top floor, and i was across the courtyard in a townhouse on the bottom floor. we had just moved to a foreign country and i didn’t know one person there. i could see her coming to the bedroom window and messing with the blinds. i called my brother and told him that i couldn’t take myself away from the window. he said “stay there. keep watching. otherwise, your mind won’t believe it’s really happening.” husband back and forth to sign papers. i said i can’t believe a woman would do that to another woman. i said that over and over and over. it was beyond me. she was living in one of my houses. on the same property as me. for all the world to see. he bought her a car. she parked it in one of my garages. i asked him to ask her how she could do that to me. here’s what she said: “I DON’T EVEN KNOW HER.”

  133.  #133Jennifer on December 8, 2009 at 7:21 am

    I am fighting leaning forward!
    There are two men on Eharmony right now who really perk my interest.
    One is a child therapist
    the other is a clinical psychologist who loves zombie movies. I am a zombie junkie.
    I really want to be pursued.
    I want them to come to me …these fantastic juicy men. I want them to contact me!

  134.  #134Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 7:42 am

    Until the final papers are in hand, I loved that: a married man is “still under contract”.

    I felt super-triggered by “a woman came and seduced my husband away when he was feeling down. I was more upset with her than I was with him. For him it was understandable. He was going through a lot of stuff and then his mother suddenly died. But for her, it was just plain low that she listened to whatever he had to say about his marriage. He was still in my house and he was married to me. End of story. She should have acted horrified that he would come her way at all in that situation.” For me, COMING TO MEeeeee WHEN HE’S DOWN IS PART OF THE CONTRACT, even if the downer concerns me and/or the relationship. And ESPECIALLY WHEN it concerns his own self-image that makes him feel unworthy but tempted to act out against me or destroy himself or take himself ‘out of the picture so his loved ones aren’t ‘burdened’ with him and can get on with their lives’. I don’t want him to mistakenly believe that I’m judging him for his doubts or failures. I don’t want him to feel that my love for him cannot be counted on, that I am too weak to withstand chinks in his strength or setbacks in his capacities – to accept him as the human being he is, his importance and worth despite frailties. I don’t want him to discount and disregard MY LOVE and FAITH in him and high opinion of him because he is out of touch with those things about himself. That feels like disrespect and one of the highest forms of betrayal of me and my feelings.

    I do not want to “understand” men that go get their ‘needs’ met and get ‘privileges’ outside the person they committed to exclusivity with. I do not want to judge or be tempted to “understand” the ‘other woman’ who gets involved in these situations. And I want to feel my ANGER and RAGE with the MAN who would do that to me.

  135.  #135Mary on December 8, 2009 at 7:45 am

    and i know the argument here: he was out the door anyway. he was looking. okay, granted. but this thought haunts me, even four years later: what if she had had some respect for my feelings? what if she had said NO to him? then i would have had another week. i had purchased a trip for two to a fabulous resort, and for once had taken the initiative to make all the plans by myself. we were scheduled to do so many things! side by side massages. i was going to get naked for him, if you can believe it. i had already bought tons of candles for our room. a hut on the beach with a huge fireplace. it was wild, windy, westcoast weather with waves crashing against the cliffs. and i had hired a photographer to take our picture. i was planning to give him the trip on the night he came home and told me it was over. he was upset. he needed a break. he needed skin. he needed arms around him. he needed to just be, without having to do. he needed tender loving care. we had both been through too much. maybe that week could have changed our dynamic? i will never know.

  136.  #136Mary on December 8, 2009 at 7:51 am

    hey flipper, you’re right. i should have been more mad at him than her. was she an innocent bystander though? no. they both did it. and because of the contract, they did it to me. i didn’t get mad at him til later. you wouldn’t even believe the things we had gone through during the previous months. real life traumas, one after another ad infinitim. yes. i should have had righteous indignation. i should have stomped my feet and yelled at him. all i had was compassion. we had been through too much.

  137.  #137Mary on December 8, 2009 at 7:53 am

    hey, Jennifer!

    in Targeting Mr. Right, Rori says to respond this way:

    1. compliment him on something in the picture, like his tie or a nice shirt or whatever.
    2. tell him something you have in common “hey, i like to ski, too!”
    3. then say, “i’m intrigued.”


  138.  #138Mary on December 8, 2009 at 7:54 am

    i hope they contact you, Jennifer!

  139.  #139Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 7:57 am

    I feel like re-writing, like this “i can’t believe a woman would do that to Herself. i Wished I’d Known to Say that over and over and over. it was beyond me. she was living Within Myself. in the same Body as me. for all the world to see. he Kept Going ” back and forth to sign papers”. He let her park in one of my garages. i asked him how He could do that to me. here’s what I Realized : “I DON’T EVEN KNOW HER/ME.” Lots of hugs, Mary. I’m crying angry tears.
    Ok, they’re drying and it doesn’t matter if my eyes are still blurry, because Now I can feel the good stuff happening in my body, coming up in my beautiful, sensual, naked, vulnerable Goddess body.

  140.  #140Mary on December 8, 2009 at 7:59 am

    it’s like she rowed a little rowboat over and the captain of my ship got off and rowed away with her. when there were no other boats anywhere around in the sea. yes, i was mad at her.

    and him.

  141.  #141Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:02 am

    hmmmm… i’m trying to understand, flipper. it’s like keeping the focus on me and not factoring in her decisions? acting as if i’m all there is? not sure here, but i’m trying…

  142.  #142Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 8:08 am

    Mary, I feel compassion for you. I hate that kind of ‘Irony’ in life. So unfair, so devastating. I feel reassured and comforted that you Did find your anger against him. You had trauma together. Where was his compassion for you?

    This is my problem. I ‘forget’ the compassion, understanding, and just basic fairness and common sense about Myself. Overfunctioning. Learning to Let BE, not to try to FIX, to accept receiving. To accept sharing what the other wants from me, however much I consider it faulty or inadequate, and stop trying to oblige him to accept what I want to Give him.

  143.  #143Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:09 am

    and now it’s been four years. i do feel some compassion for her now. he wanted to marry her, and she wanted him to go to this specific retreat to learn about himself. he went. they got married. they had an argument. and he went off with someone he met at the retreat.

    my thought: wow. the new woman rowed over and he rowed away with her! i felt NO FEELINGS OF GLADNESS about that. the original ‘other woman’ is probably mortified and humiliated. i feel sad for her now.

    she did it to herself.

  144.  #144Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:11 am

    i like what you’re saying, and i’m going to take these thoughts with me today. thank you!

  145.  #145DocK on December 8, 2009 at 8:11 am

    LJ – I feel, quite literally, sick to my stomach reading your story.

    I went through something similar.

    My guy, “S” was truly toxic. There is something so devious about “the silent treatment.” I remembered feeling like I had gone crazy. Just,out of the blue, no talking and we worked together as well – side by side on projects. It was maddening. I felt out of control and I didn’t want it to affect my job. My job was very much about protecting “the boys” and I felt I had noone to turn to and didn’t want to complain about how he was letting our personal stuff affect the job – I knew I would be the one punished (or fired).

    I was no longer involved with him in a relationship and he was very angry. I had just moved here – no family no friends – and still felt tied to him.

    When I finally met a friend to go with away for the weekend, I came back to discover that he sent an email to me DEMANDING I resign (I outranked him) and blind copied my boss.

    This was a vindictive, self-absorbed, mean and screwed up man. I would pray that he or I would find another job. Finally, he did.

    I ended up beating up on myself, again literally, crying and hitting myself wondering what in the hell was wrong with ME that I would be in love with someone so emotionally crippled. I had to do a lot of work on me.

    My life after S has been wonderful. A person like S has to get help but most don’t want to – they think they are fine just as they are.

    I don’t know why I or any woman falls in love with a man like this and continues to feel so devastated at the loss of him. I am sorry to say it like this – just my opinion – but there is something really damaged inside these men that behave this way that only they can heal.

    He has since moved back and has tried to contact me repeatedly. He seems to finally have stopped. I want nothing to do with him. I feel no love for him anymore. I don’t wish him harm either – just that he leave me alone.

    I had a dream some time ago that I ran into him and he had a gun and was going to kill me. Even though S was never physically violent with me – I know that there is a deep fear of him – he was EMOTIONALLY violent.

    I am glad Rori is going to do a post on this.

  146.  #146Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 8:14 am

    I would have felt very angry at her too – insulted, outraged, crazy mad, screaming harpie (laugh sarcastically cuz She’s the harpie, technically) frozen bitterness, steely murderous resolve.

  147.  #147Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:19 am

    flipper – i’m not wanting to cut off the conversation. please tell me more if you like. i’m thinking through your insights. i liked your rewrite! i feel embarrassed for dominating with so many entries. i can’t even believe this stuff is coming up.

  148.  #148Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:19 am

    oh! that sounds beautiful!

  149.  #149Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 8:22 am

    What goes around, comes around….but doesn’t that guy ever get dizzy? Sounds like his inner stabilizer is permanently off – beware to smug wily women rowers. But let’s not waste too much of our feminine solidarity energy on people who brought it on themselves. Have a splendid day, bursting with life and gratitude. We still have our boats, but the pirate fake-rower is gone, so our Siren call is free to work it’s magic (al)lure.

  150.  #150Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:23 am

    i made a friend here soon after he left. i told her that i kept walking around town and i was SCREAMING inside.

    but i don’t feel the bitterness. every night before i go to sleep, i review the day. i admit my wrongs. i ask for forgiveness. and i don’t feel bitter.

  151.  #151Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 8:24 am

    It IS beatiful, Mary – for BOTH of us and all the others reading it. I feel so tickled that we’re ‘answering’ so driectly before reading the other’s response. How’s that for a good dose of synchronicity ?

  152.  #152Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:24 am

    yes! let’s have a wonderful day, siren women that we are!

  153.  #153Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:25 am

    such fun! already, today…

  154.  #154Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 8:31 am

    Yikes – gotta go buy my daughter some food, before my singing lesson and folkdancing which make me feel so MARVELOUS (despite some annoying aches and pains tsk)

  155.  #155Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:32 am

    flipper – i’m just thinking about this:

    “stop trying to oblige him to accept what I want to Give him.”

    that’s pretty profound.

  156.  #156Mary on December 8, 2009 at 8:33 am

    k – bye bye! sweet flipper!

  157.  #157tinque on December 8, 2009 at 8:55 am

    Mary – I realize I’m coming into this conversation late, but I couldn’t let it be.
    “I was more upset with her than I was with him. For him it was understandable.”
    I have to take major issue with you on this. Actually this makes me feel very angry. And sadly this kinda sorta falls in line with our discussion of beauty yesterday. Yes this woman was low, very low for seducing a taken man (one doesn’t have to necessarily be married to be spoken for) BUT he is just as culpable. I don’t care what’s troubling a person. He knew what he was doing. It takes two. I can guarantee you that her flirtations were going on long before his mother’s death. He should have stopped that in its tracks from the beginning. His eyes were already elsewhere, his heart out the door.
    It makes me sad that you are feeling less than as a woman and a human being with this beautiful heart of yours, for otherwise you would have been furious or at least deeply saddened by his behavior.
    I understand not feeling beautiful, and I don’t just mean the outer coating. I missed your post from yesterday where you so sweetly called me as such. I hear that every now and them, BUT I don’t see it. Well…honestly there are times I can see something pleasing, but apparently not what others see, and this seems to me to be what you are doing, but you’ve carried it further. Your inability to recognize your own beauty, and I include your inner gorgeous goddessness let this man off the hook for cheating on you. Even now though you say you are angry, I don’t feel it. You’re still excusing him for treating you badly. Yes it’s four years ago, and it doesn’t matter anymore, but do think about this. I’ve done the same in my life, so I understand, but it’s not okay.

    “what if she had had some respect for my feelings? what if she had said NO to him? then i would have had another week. ”

    What if HE had had respect for you and your feelings? What if he had said NO to her? None of these questions mean much. You still would have had nothing because from what you have told us about him, he wasn’t able to give you anything at all anyway.

    I’m happy you are here. I’ve seen growth in the short time you’ve been here, and that my dear is what matters, and it’s fabulous.

  158.  #158Mary on December 8, 2009 at 9:23 am

    well tinque, i’m tracking with you. he did me wrong. i’m mad about that. but why is the other woman off the hook in these discussions? is what she did okay?

    is it because i was saying that she did it TO ME? like a VICTIM would say? and it isn’t possible to do anything TO ME? (shades of understanding here, but the picture is foggy) if a man killed my brother, would i say, “oh, too bad that man did that to himself?” NO. he did it to my brother, and the loss hurt a lot of us, so he did it to us, too.

    aren’t there true victims in the world? and isn’t the third wheel in a love affair a true victim?

  159.  #159tinque on December 8, 2009 at 9:56 am

    No absolutely not. She completely disrespected you and worse. It does take two. I take issue with them both even if I can understand them both. I say often, finish old business before starting new.
    And yes this was done to you. But I can guarantee you she wasn’t thinking about you at all. He was though, and this is partly why I’m upset with him.
    Where your responsibility lies is within you, how you handle things after. how you treat you, with respect and with gentle loving care. How you proceed from there on out. How you learn to spot the signs BEFORE something like this happens again.


  160.  #160Mary on December 8, 2009 at 10:22 am

    well, with my masculine energy i’m working on my feminine anxieties to promote peacefulness, so that i don’t feel clingy and dependant on a man:

    1. i’m learning to get around in the world by studying for my real estate exam (it’s harder here than in the States.)
    2. i’m finding the beauty in my face, in my body and in my soul.
    3. i’m becoming good company for myself by taking myself to art fairs, the opera, to plays, out to eat, to the ocean and on long walks in the rainforest.
    4. i’m taking courses to learn all about finances so i can make good decisions.
    5. i’m branching out and meeting new people all the time.
    6. i’m exercising like crazy and my body is getting toned and looking good!
    7. i completed three or four self-help workbooks (looking forward – goals in life, looking backward – grief recovery and staying in the present) and listened to countless dating CDs, spent hundreds on eBooks on dating, etc.

    and my ex-fiance came back and says i’m different now. he’s so proud of the fact that i’m studying and that i want to work. he says he’s attracted to me in a new way.

    so something good is happening! have a good day, everyone! thank you, tinque! and flipper!

    i’m gonna go study now. i feel peaceful when i study…

  161.  #161Paula on December 8, 2009 at 10:23 am

    I feel SO frustrated trying to keep up with the comments because you’re all posting while I’m sleeping…

    I spend a lot of time thinking about WHY my ex’s current girlfriend is cheating on her husband and why he thinks it’s OK to be with her while she does that. I blamed myself for him cheating on me. I thought I wasn’t good enough – not as good as the ex he still was in love with. I feel better these days but I don’t ever want to feel that cheating is OK. Because I have felt so hurt by it.

    I wish I could feel beautiful. I look in the mirror and I see my thin face and my wrinkles (I’ve aged a bit over the past few tough years). I never did feel beautiful and I look at photos of myself from when I was younger and I feel sad because I was pretty and I didn’t know it!

    I feel relieved. I took my cat to the vet today with acute kidney failure. The vet just rang to say that she will be OK. I feel so grateful to them. They are so kind.

    I feel really grateful to read your contributions, Mary – and Tinque. They’re nice.

    I feel compassion for you, LJ and J. I’m glad you’re here. I would feel happy for you Jennifer if your hurt stops soon.

  162.  #162tinque on December 8, 2009 at 10:28 am

    sounds great to me Mary…:)

  163.  #163tinque on December 8, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Paula – “I spend a lot of time thinking about WHY my ex’s current girlfriend is cheating on her husband”
    Not a great way to spend your time. Men and women cheat, the percentage is close to equal, and it’s not nice. Most people are filled with fear. Cheating is one to deal with that.

    “I wish I could feel beautiful….I look at photos of myself from when I was younger and I feel sad because I was pretty and I didn’t know it!”

    So don’t waste another minute bemoaning what you think you’ve lost, for you’ll look at pictures of yourself ten, twenty years from now and feel sad because you were pretty and didn’t see it. Look in that mirror, give yourself a HUGE smile, lean in and kiss that sweet mouth of yours, and tell yourself how fabulous you are. Even if you don’t exactly believe it, this will shift your inner energy. Keep doing this, and one day you will own it.

  164.  #164Tracy on December 8, 2009 at 10:53 am

    I feel resonance with what you commented….I was the other woman in my last relationship and i do feel guilty for ruining someone else relationship..I feel the same way you mentioned.I did not love myself enough to be angry and leave and instead tried to justify the reasons i was in it..I feel that the experience projected the lack of love for myself and i am grateful for that because now i have made the changes in me…
    I feel that i can now have a relationship that feels good for me,and i can have a man that i love and that loves only me….
    I feel bad for what happened and i do feel triggered by your experience….I feel glad that i can make amends for my situation and i feel it was a good lesson learned for myself…thanks for sharing…

  165.  #165Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 10:54 am


    glad you liked it 🙂

    Flipper- Hi 🙂

    Tinque- did you get a nice laugh from my “mirror love confession by candlelight” ? hehehe 🙂


    Sorry-I’m a total night-owl……maybe it’s like xmas -you go to sleep and the blog is full of presence 😉



  166.  #166LJ-Please help on December 8, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Thank You Rori-I really look forward to seeing your post. Sometimes i feel like I’m suffocating or dying on the inside. I exert so much energy each day trying to fight off these painful feelings. I’m trying so hard to recover, but I feel like I keep falling backwards and everytime I see or hear him at work or cross his path, I feel this sick feeling in my gut and replay all these mixed emotions in my head and heart. Again, thanks..i’ll keep checking for your post.
    Thanks to Mary, Nikita, Paula and others for your compassion and empathy. It means alot.
    Many of my friends don’t understand where I’m coming from. They ask me why I’m still bothered. This is not something that I can just simply move on from. I’m trying to let go and move forward in every which way, but it seems I can’t given my situation and how he treated me in the end. I’m so dismayed, and dumbfounded, and angry and confused, and hurt. Then what’s that I start thinking about all the good times..and the sweet things..and then I miss him. It really just sucks! Anyway-Thank you all with you soon…
    Take Care

  167.  #167tinque on December 8, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Tracy – Guilt is not a very productive emotion either. You learned your lesson, and that’s what matters. YOU didn’t ruin that relationship, HE did. It takes two. He has control over his own being, and he chose to cheat.
    You love yourself enough now to not settle for scraps. You’ve grown enough to make room for the real deal. And YAY to that.

  168.  #168tinque on December 8, 2009 at 11:11 am

    Nikita – I LOVED your mirror love by candlelight. I wish I had thought of it. I’ll have to try it after I move this weekend.

  169.  #169tinque on December 8, 2009 at 11:13 am

    LJ – Please help – In my experience your feelings sound pretty normal. Most women would feel as you do. It takes time. Be gentle with yourself. Be kind. Be patient.

  170.  #170Tracy on December 8, 2009 at 11:16 am

    I feel triggered by my relatives..My aunt was talking about financial problems and how she has had to struggle so much and she feels that her husband is doing nothing.They still have children in school.This happened with my parents as well and i remember feeling resentful towards my father though i know that he tried his best…I feel that by being resentful i was able to stuff down my fears of not being able to have my needs met…
    I feel scared when this scared because i feel worried about a man’s ability to take care of my needs.At the same time i feel not so good about dumping the whole responsibility of providing to a man…I have seen this with one of my uncle’s who is acting up because now he has to provide for his family…i feel scared of starting a family and all these things coming up!it feels scary.
    I want to feel safe with my man and work with him in securing a financial background that will help us raise our children.It feels safer to trust that my man is doing his best and supporting him when things go wrong..
    I want to feel secure and know that all is well…
    sorry this is off topic…

  171.  #171tinque on December 8, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Tracy – You know what? It’s kind of silly to worry about something that’s not even here yet. I have taught myself to banish irrelevant fears. When and if the situation arises, deal with it then. Usually, reality is not as dire as what our little brains make up.

  172.  #172Tracy on December 8, 2009 at 11:21 am

    You are so right….I am working in letting go of my guilt…I feel guilt for so many things in my life…not that i am trying to excuse myself but i now feel tired of staying in the past…
    I want to feel confident with the present and attract something that feels good and is healthy for me…I have learnt so much and i feel grateful…thank you…Hugs

  173.  #173Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 11:29 am


    yay!!!! I feel like a little “orgasm disciple” 🙂

    feels very good….


    Go on a date….please….even if you have to go to the ladie’s room in-between courses to cry….I want you to see over the mountain…….there is better out there and it may take time to find it…….but the quicker you get up…the faster it and RELIEF will come……I’m prescribing some major self-love for you….major.

    I feel appreciative that your ex was so clear about what he can and can’t offer……it feels safe to me…..maybe a bit insensitive but……..still very sensitive to out time…which is so precious……when I’ve been through the heart-wrenching break-ups I go back to the toughest thing I ever went through-and my mantra is….if I can get through THAT!;then this is going to be a CAKEWALK-I empathize….I’ve had to work with an ex……I felt like I was drowning….but I focused on appreciating him—for not gossiping about me, and keeping his distance, and not flaunting other women in front of me, and being professional, and not sabotaging my livelihood-because he did have the power to do that……I felt awful…….I felt yearning……but I focused on the good that was coming of it…..I look back and wonder, if it could have been easier…..and it could have……my pain blinded me to a lot of opportunities for months…….he even gained a new respect for me for the way I handled it…I kept my composure…..think ELEGANCE….embody it 🙂


  174.  #174tinque on December 8, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Tracy – You are so welcome. Big hugs back at you.
    I gotta go now, start moving stuff over to our new place, finish cleaning and polishing etc. Be back later.

  175.  #175tinque on December 8, 2009 at 11:32 am

    I’m laughing very hard right now. Love it. Orgasm disciple. HAHAHA……Does feel good doesn’t it.

    I also love your advice, elegance in the face of angst.

  176.  #176tinque on December 8, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Of course that was for you nikita… 🙂

  177.  #177Tracy on December 8, 2009 at 11:55 am

    its true that we can create so much fear over the future about things that are uncertain.I realize that i do this alot….especially when i feel unsure or afraid….
    It feels much better to just let go…easier said but i can work on getting there…

  178.  #178Jennifer on December 8, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    ok ladies.
    I sent a “free ice breaker” to the two that caught my attention.
    I would have to subscribe to do more, I think.
    It’s like $50/month….a little out of the budget right now.
    But, hopefully they are subscribed and then can communicate with me!

  179.  #179Nikita on December 8, 2009 at 12:17 pm


    did you update your profile to say HOW MUCH YOU LOVE ZOMBIE MOVIES ?

    that is a rare find in a woman….. rare….. plus the updating is good…. I feel UPDATE !!!!


  180.  #180Paula on December 8, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    I’m feeling triggered and I feel confused.

    I believe that I am responsible for my actions and I think the most important thing that I can do in my daily life is not to hurt anyone. (sometimes I do).

    So If I cheat on a partner or if I date someone who is cheating on his partner, then I can cause hurt to many ‘unknown’ people – partners, children, extended families.

    I don’t believe that I can ONLY operate out of what feels good to me. I wouldn’t feel good about myself if I was hurting others while feeling happy myself. I wouldn’t be able to look myself in the eye.

  181.  #181Melanie on December 8, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Paula, I feel good about what you wrote. I feel the same way. Sometimes it is tempting to follow my feel-good feelings (physical, emotional, mental PLEASURE), but I try not to in situations like you described, because ultimately, although I may feel good in some ways, I do feel bad about hurting someone (especially, like you said, innocent children). (I admit that I have failed in this a time or two in the distant past.)

    Francis Lucille says (about choices in life in general), “Let your JOY be your guide. Notice I said JOY, not pleasure…” I feel that if I follow my JOY, not just my pleasure, I will usually avoid hurting people, because part of my joy is in loving people — even strangers — by being kind and not harming them.

  182.  #182Mary on December 8, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Ooooooooh, Paula! I like this! Maybe that’s what Flipper meant when she rewrote my post and said, “how can she do this to herself?” about the other woman (instead of what I said, which was “how can she do this to me?”.) Because she put herself into that position of hurting other people, and that was a harmful thing for her.


  183.  #183Mary on December 8, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Hey Jennifer, that was brave of you to make initial contact! I’m hoping that it goes well!

  184.  #184Daria on December 8, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    Hi Paula and Melanie…

    something ive been working on here is taking care of myself first

    i really resisted this idea

    i was always about giving and giving and taking care of other people

    only when i heard Rori and other people encouraging me to try taking care of myself first did i have the courage to take a baby step towards it

    then as i grew into this i realized that taking care of myself first and foremost, and letting go of OVERFUNCTIONING and attempting to take care of other people (a way to avoid my own feelings)

    that gave me MORE love and Created More Love Radiating out of me to others as well

    basically by focusing on not hurting others, I would hurt more others and help less, than when focusing on me and doing what pleased me

    it was a hard concept to “get” for me

    but i believe I was ready..

    have you heard of Mama Gena?

    I really recommend her books… (Rori recommended them to a poster) … The School of the Womanly Arts

    they are about embracing our pleasure as women and how that actually spreads more love around us as well

  185.  #185Daria on December 8, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    i feel triggered

    i wish Rori would jump in lol

  186.  #186Simply Shannon on December 8, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    I feel lost in the posts lately. Ya’ll are typing up a storm! I’ll try to pop back on later.

    The only thing I briefly noticed was mention of the “other woman”. For me, anyone who is not ME is not my business. I’ve got enough to deal with just taking care of my feelings. Nobody owes me anything. Spending time thinking about what anyone else is doing is not my business and feels wasteful of my own energy.

    Paula: You are exactly right. Each of us is responsible for our own actions. However, just because I don’t feel good cheating (or whatever) doesn’t mean someone else feels bad. Lots of people do not feel the same way I do about things. That is their business and their responsibility. I feel bad when I judge other people’s actions and feelings. (Who am I to judge what someone is going through at any particular time?) I can only take care of me and live my life in a way that feels good to me. That to me is what Rori is teaching.

  187.  #187Mary on December 8, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    shannon: i know where you’ve been!!!!!
    xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo !!!!!

  188.  #188Simply Shannon on December 8, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Forgot to ask: Where’s Alias Girl? Come out and play AG! 🙂

    Off to dinner. See ya’ll on the flip side.

  189.  #189tinque on December 8, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Paula and Melanie – “I don’t believe that I can ONLY operate out of what feels good to me.”
    But you wouldn’t feel good knowing that others were being hurt because you are not only on a one way track to operating on what feels good to Paula or Melanie. The surface stuff would feel good, but all the ramifications wouldn’t, so what I’m saying is that the feel good stuff would be canceled out.
    This is still taking care of you and spreading love around as Daria describes.
    I’m having a hard time putting this into words. When you fill yourself up with love and take care of your needs first so that love is even a possibility within, hurting others consciously is just not an option. It’s not something you really think about. It just is.
    Am I making sense?

  190.  #190Daria on December 8, 2009 at 4:39 pm


    I feel disappointed cuz i just worked with the Lefkoe lady and I don’t think it worked.

    Grrr… i felt so great initially after the lefkoe videos but now most of that went away

    i think it might be cuz the healer guy i worked with in the truama release thingy said that energies were put in the body, and so trying to change belief systems would only go on top of or parallel to that

    it doesnt feel good to believe that but i did believe it

    im starting to feel wary of working with male healers lol

    also i kinda noticed that too a lil bit… or maybe my adopting that belief well canceled out all the work i did

    now i don’t know how to let go of that one

    but those few days of feeling unstoppable and unafraid of people were great

    dang it

    i feel annoyed that it didnt work, i feel annoyed that i paid 100 dollars to work with the lefkoe lady and we didnt really get that much progress done

    fuckin a

  191.  #191Melanie on December 8, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Tinque, absolutely, that was exactly what I was saying: “The surface stuff would feel good, but all the ramifications wouldn’t, so what I’m saying is that the feel good stuff would be canceled out” and “When you fill yourself up with love and take care of your needs first so that love is even a possibility within, hurting others consciously is just not an option.” Yes, yes, yes. That is the bottom line.

    I find that part of loving myself means not hurting others, as Paula was saying. Treating others well FEEDS me, fills me, nourishes me, pleases me deeply. I don’t feel that I have to neglect my own needs and pleasure and love for myself in order to be good to others. I find that the more I love myself, the more love pours out of me for others, and then channels right back to me. Sort of like the water cycle — it just keeps going round and round. The times in my life when I was in my twenties when I “embraced my pleasure,” I DID end up hurting people, and myself as well. I find that, for ME, it feels better in the long run to balance my pleasure with the needs of other people. It is one of the ways I take care of myself. I feel that being sensitive to others’ needs is different from “taking care of them.” They are responsible to take care of themselves– I am responsible to be kind to them, just like I want them to be kind to me and not hurt me either.

    These are my feelings, my way of loving myself and others, and I do not judge others who feel differently and take care of themselves differently.

  192.  #192Melanie on December 8, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    Daria, I feel sad about your frustrating experience with the healers. 🙁

  193.  #193Daria on December 8, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Thanks melanie…

    I feel sad that you think “embracing your pleasure” led to hurt. Perhaps we have different ideas about pleasure?

    to me:
    pleasure = what feels good = feminine magic = joy

    have you read any of mama gena’s stuff? I Feel so good reading it.

  194.  #194Daria on December 8, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Are you “toxic” when you treat yourself badly?

    Yes. I feel annoyed by the word toxic. But yes. I’m feeling bad and I suppose I’m toxic ie. not being 100% honoring of me when i treat mself badly

    When you allow yourself to be treated badly?

    yes. Unless I am doing as much baby steps as I can at that time and simply “don’t make it” to not allow myself to be treated badly.

    And what does that mean – toxic – when you’re talking about yourself?

    Thats what im wondering too… I guess it means that I’m not shining all my light, i’m not giving my love to myself, im not accepting myself, I’m not honoring myself… and therefore /I would have the same effect to others around me

    Where do regular girl feelings like insecurities and anxieties and fears end, and toxic stuff start?

    I don’t believe in “regular girl fears”? I believe in feeling fearless?? I feel afraid? lol… they start when feeling my feelings I start DOING (including thinking) stuff that makes me feel BAD instead of Good

    Does it matter?

    well yes it matters, it matters what I DO with my not good feelings… feel them out and ask myself and intend myself to feel good, or “not” … does it matter? no in a way because intending to not feel good would just mean im feeling overwhelmed by past patterns and voices…. so no it doesn’t matter, the only thing it DOES MATTER TO is how I FEEL

    If I say that Toxic is about behavior – what you do, how the masculine part of you “acts” – then how can you help yourself feel peaceful about the feelings the feminine part of you experiences?

    I can do through the tunnel. I can meditate. I can riff and love my feelings. I can EFT… I can ask for help.

    How much anger and rage can you feel without acting angry and rageful (I made that up….)?

    zero. there is no such thing as acting angry and rageful (AHA). There is only certain behavior that i have done in the past that i associated with “what i should/haveto/do do” when I have felt these feelings. The behavior might be destructive – leading me to feel bad… or constructive… leading me to feel good.

    Go Kali MA … hehe

    How can you release this anger and rageful energy without being a drama queen or hurting someone?

    Shoot still working on this, feels like it tenses in my body. Writing on the blog and riffing. Meditating… telling my mom how im feeling seems to work… I WOULD LIKE MORE OPTIONS HERE!!!

    oh Vampire Scream works nicely

    Or hurting yourself?

    all the above seem to work nicely. beating people up might work here but it might hurt other people. besides i feel a lil scared to go around beating people up. why am i obsessed (hmm) with beating people up? maybe i have amazon blood… i just like fighting too… i think its a great way to express ourselves… but not in a destructive fighting kinda way

    And so what if that happens anyway?

    well if it does i can feel that out and keep expressing my feeling till someone hits me over my head and out a glass window (what?) yes i feel afraid i guess. Well i can tell myself i love myself. I can feel awful and low and disappointed and hopeless… I’m already starting to feel hopeless imagining this… then i can embrace that part of me STRANGER and ask her to help me be more whole

    How could you release all this energy in communicating to man in any way that would heal you and perhaps the relationship? Let’s go outside the box for this one – I want to explore all the ways “mistakes” in communicating can help you (this deserves a whole new post…)

    MMM… being totally honest? CAN PERHAPS HEAL ME AND THE RELATIONSHIP? not worrying about what totally honest could mean? him attacking me and beating me??? hmmmm…. i love me…

    When is a man no good?

    never. maybe when he’s insane and eats children. or sexually abuses them

    When is a relationship no good, and even if the man is good? How can you tell?

    a relationship is no good when I feel bad about being in it… when it feels like i would want something else if i had to pick my heart’s joy in front of God. or is this just a chance to run away? when it gets tough?

    I dont’ know when the relationship is no good? when i don’t feel his energy coming towards me, and i feel bad… i can tell because it feels bad,


    if it feels like the relationship will be gone if I don’t row, then its no good

  195.  #195Melanie on December 8, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Daria, maybe an example will help: When I was 21, I followed my pleasure and had a wonderful night of passion with a married man. I got everything out of it that I wanted. It felt great physically, emotionally, mentally. However, I regret that I hurt his wife and his little boy (they got divorced because of her pain). That does not feel good to me. I have forgiven myself and am way past it, but it is just something I don’t want to do, because I have learned, as Tinque said, that FOR ME, the ramification of hurting that innocent child and his mother CANCELS OUT the feel-good stuff. I had my pleasure, embraced my pleasure, followed my pleasure, but ended up feeling sad for the family and knew that I was partially responsible for their pain. Therefore, FOR ME, I will not indiscriminately follow my pleasure if I know that doing so will hurt another human being, because FOR ME that feels like I am taking love OUT of the world, and therefore OUT of myself, instead of putting love INTO the world by loving myself first yet not neglecting to love others at the same time by choosing actions that are simultaneously loving toward all involved (myself included).

    Or maybe put another way: FOR ME, my pleasure and harming someone else are mutually exclusive.

    Does that make sense?

  196.  #196Melanie on December 8, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    Daria wrote: “I dont’ know when the relationship is no good? when i don’t feel his energy coming towards me, and i feel bad… i can tell because it feels bad….if it feels like the relationship will be gone if I don’t row, then its no good.”

    Daria, that’s when it starts feeling not good to me, too, but my problem is, I can’t tell if his energy is REALLY not coming toward me, or if I’m just AFRAID that it’s not (like, I’m IMAGINING him losing interest by reading too much into things just because I am nervous about losing him). And do I just FEEL like it will end if I don’t row, because I am impatient and want more assurance, and am naturally a go-getter? Maybe it is all just fine and dandy, but my strong desire for him makes me scared of losing him.

  197.  #197Flipper on December 8, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    Daria, I feel grateful foryou reminding us that loving ourselves is what allows the best and most loving, and is the best way of insuring we don’t hurt others, and how to go about it.

    Mary, I see your confusion better now. When I re-wrote your words as “i can’t believe a woman would do that to Herself”. I meant it in the sense that You were doing it to Yourself, (by tolerating what was happening to you thru that woman’s and your husband’s actions and attitudes). I meant it in the way Rori did in her earlier post, about doing heartbreak to Oneself, when we stay in or accept a situation that is destroying us. That’s why I change the next lines to “She (the woman hurting me) was living within myself (because she was me) in the same Body as me.”

    But I feel so good about how you’ve turned things around now, are not dwelling on that terrible time, have come through another hurtful situation and now have the new hurter recognizing his errors and trying to fix things with you. Brava for feeling a desire to circular date while seeing if his actions and perserverance match his words.

    Lisa, I can feel your new strength and determination through your realisations. I envy your anger. As you continue tapping into all those feelings, you’ll come out stronger still and will see more clearly what is best for you.

  198.  #198Daria on December 8, 2009 at 5:52 pm


    “However, I regret that I hurt his wife and his little boy (they got divorced because of her pain). ”

    Lets say that never happened: they stayed together at that time and started feeling more and more unhappy, he started hitting her and the little boy, he went to jail, they divorced and were horrible miserable for a long time until they finally took steps to heal.

    Is it not possible that you facilitated something that was meant to happen?

    Would a COMMITTED man in a good marriage sleep with another woman? (I would think not).

    IT was not your pleasure that caused their divorce. It was his not commitment and already existing issues between them. Otherwise he would not have been sleeping with you or another woman, period.

    I hear your guilt. I love your guilt. Sometimes I suppose we can feel pleasure and later feel not good…

    that is the meanint you gave to the event.

    what i see is:

    you did something good, and HELPED them get a divorce faster when their marriage wasnt working! Yeah it may have hurt, but it may have hurt worse otherwise.

    I agree that pleasure and harming someone else can be mutually exclusive. that would not feel pleasurable, to harm someone else if i dont want to.

    What about if youre on the verge of getting married, and men from your past come up and say… oh no please dont do it, youre harming me… see how that IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY? they are having weak boundaries?

    you did not get married to that man? you did not vow to be committed?

    it is HE who had weak boundaries? it is She who owns her own relationship…

    I believe you as the 3rd party can do what you want to do, as long as it feels good… it seems that you found that sleeping with a married man does not feel good to YOU (not about them)

    shoot… maybe you sleeping with him could have triggered a major healing and restructuring in their relationship and they could have gotten amazingly close…

    would you have felt good then? (I don’t know, I think I wouldve personaly felt jealous… and Not good. Hence why I don’t want to sleep or date a married man).

  199.  #199ABC on December 8, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    Hi LJ,

    reading your story reminds me of something similar i’ve been through not long ago. I was also involved with an emotionally unavailable man in an organization we both belong to. needless to say, he wasn’t the right person for me to begin with, if only i could see the red flags then…anyway, it was really hard to see him at the meetings, how can you get over the pain when you are constantly living in it???

    So what i did was even though i knew i wanted to see him so bad, i knew it’s an addiction–to see someone who isn’t good for me. i just distance myself, it felt really bad at first, but i knew it’s the RIGHT thing to do. i kept myself away from him for 1 month, things started to get better, i felt like myself again, and i got my power back.

    another thing i did was open myself up to other men who like me. so that took my focus off him for a little, and continued working on myself. i don’t know if changing your job is an option, you sound like you are beating yourself up for hung up on him. it’s only reasonable that you are hung up on him, 4 years being with someone is a long time and if it’s an addiction, it needs more than time to heal, it needs strength and more love for yourself.

    it’s been how long since i saw him–i don’t remember because i no longer hung up on him. but when i see him periodically now–he’s with another woman now btw, i feel so lucky that i am no longer with him, now i see him clearly for who he is–someone who is not worth my time. it’s amazing how space and time can clear your mind and get you detox. like rori said, if you feel bad and confused and sad in a man’s presence, that man is not good for you, drop him out of your life so a better man can come in.

    best luck to you.


  200.  #200Simply Shannon on December 8, 2009 at 8:02 pm

    DARIA: You are on a roll girl! OMGosh! I love how you re-wrote the story!!!!!!!!! I cannot put enough exclamation points on here. Wow!!!

    In any given moment or any given second, I am deciding what feels good. I act on that feel good feeling. I put a stone in the pond without knowing the ripples it will send out.

    Is it possible that the woman who slept with the married man was considering killing herself that night and she just needed comfort and found it in the arms of a married man? And her feeling good about sleeping with that man means she didn’t kill herself and went on to be a brain surgeon who saved lots of people.

    And maybe her sleeping with the married man made him realize how much he loved his wife, so much so that he rededicated himself to his marriage, and they lived happily ever after?

    Rewrite the story. Twist it around and make the story into something else. It allows me the freedom to see everything in a whole new way. It doesn’t mean I tolerate things that don’t feel good but rewriting the story feels powerful because I can make it anything I want it to be. And that feels good to me.

  201.  #201Rori Raye on December 8, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    Wow, Dock, Thank you for this, and I look forward to your comment on the new post…Love, Rori

  202.  #202Rori Raye on December 8, 2009 at 8:47 pm

    Rhonda – I’m willing to bet you’ve had some abuse in your background, because there’s abuse here – and it’s bringing out “love” in you instead of the instinct to RUN – which would be the normal, self-preserving thing to do. If you can get some therapy or join a CODA support group – that would be wonderful – if not…just keep reading and writing here, and we’ll help you all we can. FIRST – You may feel lost, and you may feel ashamed – and loving yourself anyway – even those feelings and the feelings and actions that make you feel that way – will be the fastest way to heal yourself. Love, Rori

  203.  #203Rori Raye on December 8, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    Whoa – Daria – you sound like a true guru….you rock…Love, Rori

  204.  #204Rori Raye on December 8, 2009 at 9:06 pm

    Melanie, So great to hear from you. I’ve had affairs with married men, too. Two of them. One was my therapist of many years (yes, there’s an amazing story there, and at the heart of it is my old neediness and desperation – so you know how far I’ve traveled. I wrote a book about it in order to heal everything I was doing with men that allowed that to happen) and the other was an older man, a successful New York producer. I thought I was with him because of his “power” – but I convinced myself I was desperately in love with him. I personally knew the wife of the therapist, because she was my therapist before he was – (so imagine what led me into that…) and I ran into my older married lover and his wife at a play. When I saw his wife, I saw REALITY for perhaps the first time in my love life. That was a turning point in my life and my perception of what IS (and not because I was “hurting her” but because I could actually FEEL that this didn’t feel GOOD). Melanie, this has NOTHING to do with “pleasure.” It has to do with power, control, punishment, need – all kinds of things playing out. Pleasure is something else entirely. I’m totally with Daria – we are being arrogant if we somehow believe our actions turn the course of human history. There are levels of “awareness” happening at different moments in our lives. As we live “unaware,” joy is really not an option. I believe we are always in concert with others, and that life is somehow a collaboration on a level higher than we can grasp. Some people call this a collaboration with God, some people call it being directed by God, I only know what I feel if I can feel it. Love to you, Rori (Let me know if you want me to elaborate on the therapist thing…if there’s really a demand, I’ll send you to a place to download the book for free…)

  205.  #205Lisa on December 8, 2009 at 9:09 pm


    Thank you for the encouragement 🙂 I feel my anger is protective for me. I am usually so “nice” and accommodating, but this anger says “No” to any more accommodation.

  206.  #206Rori Raye on December 8, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    Yep, Tinque…When we stop having to operate 100% in personal survival mode – we have an innate bond with others…and hurting them feels like hurting us. It’s not a mental thing…not conscience – but a sense of – well – it’s the “sisterhood” thing we women have been working to develop these long years, rather than the sense of competition. Once we get that we don’t have to take away from others in order to have what we want — it all changes. It’s a sense of “lack” thing that causes the problem. Love, Rori

  207.  #207Lisa on December 8, 2009 at 9:22 pm


    “Lisa – wow! what a situation! I’m not liking your guy at all. Sex can’t be THAT good! I want someone better for you.”

    Thank you; the sex is not even that good! Not good at all, really. I saw my counselor today (after a 9 month hiatus), and she said (as she has before, but I did not hear) that he is abusive, and I must stay away. The “nice” offers he makes are always followed by verbal/situational abuse.

    In a very timely comment, DocK correctly speaks of “psychic abuse”, which is what I’ve suffered. I do hope Rori addresses this. I’ve been in physically abusive situations before, and that is not hard to identify. Psychic abuse is insidious, but it is abuse, all the same, and just as damaging.

    What a great community y’all have going here. Thanks for being there.

  208.  #208Melanie on December 8, 2009 at 9:41 pm

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Daria. I actually didn’t feel guilt. I just felt that I wanted to make a different choice the next time I was in that kind of situation, because I knew a different choice would bring me greater joy and peace. It was something I learned that works for me and my heart, for taking care of myself.

    The speculations of different scenarios feel to me like rationalizations and justification — defense mechanisms often apparent with addictions of any type. I feel uncomfortable with twisting reality in order to justify my choices. My son stole a pack of lifesavers from CVS when he was five — following his pleasure. I explained to him that we have responsibilities to other people in society as well as the freedom to please ourselves as long as we’re not harming others. I brought him back into the store so he could return the lifesavers. I could have said to him, “Son, that’s great that you are doing what feels good! Who knows, if you hadn’t taken those lifesavers, maybe a child with diabetes would have taken them and harmed themselves with the sugar! You may have actually saved a kid’s life!”

    Rori, thanks for sharing your experience. In my case, sleeping with the married man actually was about pleasure. I wanted to do it because he had been sexually arousing me all summer and one day we were talking and it just felt good in the moment to go with those physical urges. I had pretty much been hoping it would eventually happen, because he was very hot.

    I also feel that the physics principle is true, “For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.” If I push someone off a cliff, they will fall. Perhaps I really had no choice but to push them, because everything in the universe was collaborating for that event to happen. However, I feel that to the extent to which I am living consciously and aware in the moment, I can choose whether or not to push someone off a cliff, and therefore impact someone’s life. Just like if I take in a foster child, I can have an impact on his life. I feel that our choices matter, but that is just my personal feeling.

    I do feel somewhat uncomfortable and anxious because it seems I am in the minority with my beliefs and feelings here. I do not want people to dislike me, because that does not feel good to me.

  209.  #209Laura on December 8, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    LADIES…HELP, ADVICE,WISDOM….ARGH!! The argh part was me.
    I had the love of my life contact me today and ask me to get together Thursday. I need to center myself and I need your collective wisdom!!
    Story in a nutshell (okay…a large nutshell)….4 years ago I was 45 and divorced 1 year. i met a man who was a few years older and although living in his own home, in the process of ending a 26 year marriage. We fell in love and had a blissfull life together. i can honestly say that for the 4 years we were together, I loved him more every day and the sex started out off the charts and only got better. We were playmates…..always thinking of fun things to do. We were partners in supporting each other parenting our children from our marriages….I have 2 he has 3. We waited awhile to get the kids together but when we did, they meshed wonderfully. the youngest was his son-9 at the time, another son 11, and his oldest son 14….my daughter was 14 and my son 17. We traveled the world together…from France to Australia and traveled with our kids too. My heart sang just to hang with him and his kids at his house…watching sports on tv and eating pizza. I loved his boys and I loved this man. He loved me BUT (why does there need to be a but?), he was conflicted. He felt that he met me too soon after his marriage ended. That he had been in a 26 year marriage…and hadn’t really dated before his wife….and then me. He felt that our relationship…while wonderful….would have no reason to end but he wasn’t ready to move to the next level (marriage) and he felt that afteer 4 years, we needed time apart. More specifically HE needed time apart.

    That was a year ago…almost to the day. Shortly after we broke up he went into another committed relatiosnhip. As far as i know he is still dating her. I had wanted to stay friends but she would not “allow” it so we have rarely spoken. His boys and I touch base occassionally on FB. I miss them and am flattered that they chose to reach out to me from time to time with there goings on. His oldest is now in college and my son keeps in touch with my ex bf. My son is in Law School now and the ex has helped him get internships.

    I have dated other men but my heart is slow to move on. As of a few months ago, we have started talking on the phone once ever couple weeks. I am always up beat and end convo first. We never talk about our current dating lives. Tonight, I was sitting in traffic thinking about him because the car in front of me had his initials on the lisence plate. Within minutes, my cell rang. it was him…..asking if we could do dinner this week or next. I said sure….and we chatted for a bit…and then I got off the call saying “see you soon.” I sounded cool….but……………AHHHHH.

    I havent seen his face in a year. I have tears in my eyes now as I write this. I am just happy to connect with him…even if it is to be as friends. But I do want more. How do I do this? If I knew this was the only time i would see him….i would want to tell him how much he meant to me. How sorry I was for pushing him when I should have “leaned back”. And how I cherish every memory we have. BUT….if this is possible an opening for MAYBE rekindling something….I know it is best to be casual and friendly. Do I ask about “that girl”? Do I talk about the man I have been seeing? WHAT DO I DO, SAY, WEAR!! LOL
    Thanks in advance.
    Do people ever get back together in the real world or just in movies? ok….ok….I know. It is just dinner.

  210.  #210Daria on December 8, 2009 at 11:31 pm

    Melanie –

    I feel defensive a little bit. I felt what I said was true, not a speculation. There is no “twisting of reality” that I am doing (although I would be ok with doing that also, revist the past post on changing the past) I DO have a different perception of the event you described than you.

    It is your choice to believe you hurt people. That is a belief you assigned to that situation. My belief is that you did not.

    I feel mistrustful hearing you say that you did not feel guilty.

    Indeed, you could have said that to your son. That would’ve also been a valid interpretation to another person perhaps.

    However there is a difference between a child and an adult. A child has a different degree of personal responsibility than an adult. It was your job to guide him away from an action that felt bad to you (his taking candy) and teach him what you wanted him to learn.

    I feel compassionate of feeling afraid of people not liking you.

    I feel afraid that people posting here will feel pulled down by the idea that they should not follow their pleasure.

    We have been “working hard” here to free ourselves to feel pleasure and learn to Trust Ourselves and our feelings. It’s central to what Rori’s work is about.

    and it feels frustrating to THINK about it so much.

    I believe that trusting myself and my pleasure will lead to more and more good for myself and everyone.

    I don’t think I would have had that much pleasure in the situation described, because after all it sounds like you felt something not good since you decided to do something different…. ( I would feel guilty ) so that doesn’t sound very pleasureable at all.

    Which is ok. But we must follow what feels good to us. WE are the ones who know and whats good for us is good for the world. Sounds like sleeping with this guy did not feel good after all…?

    Pleasure = feeling good = woman’s magic

    Uf i feel unheard. I feel desperate and angry. I don’t want to hear about how doing what feels good is not good.


    I do want everyone to feel good and included too.

    I don’t want to feel judged or have this turn into a big guilt and judgement fest and “how to care about other people and ignore my own feelings” blog. (editing back to say this was a judgement – I feel afraid of posting it)

    I feel frustrated and afraid i’ve pushed you away, and I kinda feel good about that because I feel threatened by what doesn’t feel good to me…

    but i also feel bad and guilty.

    im feeling frustrated.

    Fuckin a.


    I feel judgemental. AHA.


    I love my judgemental feelings.

    I love my frustrated feeings.

    I love my defensive feelings.

    i Love my judgemental feeelings.




    ok i am being tested or something thats all good . Ah i feel like attacking.

    I feel amused.

    i feel vengeful and judgemental and powerful and



    and kinda cold

    i feel guilty a lil bit. and afraid of being judged.

    i love all my feelings.

  211.  #211Nikita on December 9, 2009 at 12:31 am


    Sounds exciting…be your juicy relaxed comfortable in your skin self…..DO NOT SLEEP WITH HIM, if he is looking for more HE KNOWS HE HAS TO WORK FOR IT. . . . .FALLING INTO BED AND GIVING HIM THAT CHEMISTRY WILL BLOW HIS MIND BUT IT WILL BE ANTICLIMATIC…..seriously…..

    mmm….outfits…..I would definitely wear a dress and sparkly jewelry 🙂 and a natural fabric….but really comfy…….a cozy soft dress(knee-length)
    ….one that makes you feel luscious so you exude that……
    I am a fan of red lipstick(but NO PRESSURE) that’s just me though…..I’d keep it simple but the fabric HAS TO BE SOFT…..and stockings 🙂 elegant 🙂

    Smile—lots and lots………I wouldn’t ask about her, I think he’s going to volunteer a bunch of info…..

    If he tries to kiss you and you haven’t gotten the info about whether he’s still involved……I’d use a feeling message……I feel unsure…..or uncomfortable if…….I feel guilty about……..

    Maybe Daria can help with that part…..

    But smile and keep those legs closed 🙂 if he wants in, he knows he’s gotta make it up to you……
    let him surprise you…..keep your heart open…..stay away from facts………stick to feelings……be the turn-on……….and feel flattered!!!!!!!! maybe he’s come to his senses……..but make sure you are more than a rebound!

    I hope that helps a little……yay! I feel happy….I feel forgiveness for him-I feel good 😉

    p.s. yes people get back together in real-life!
    I met a man….he dated a girl….moved away -got married…..girl got married -both had kids…..both divorced……reconnected after 17 years or something crazy-laid eyes on eachother and he said he JUST KNEW SHE WAS THE ONE… they have a daughter together and he said he couldn’t be happier-best thing he ever did…..and then he proceeded to show me pics of everyone….yeah-(he was the manager at the car dealership-so totally random man)he seemed so in love tho!!!!! and I called him on it-how crazy it took him 17 years to GET IT!!!! he chuckled and said “i don’t know, but when we met again, I didn’t want to spend another day without her”

    Hello!!!!!! that could never happen if her heart wasn’t open………they were just open and forgiving and PRESENT.


    Real life love story right there…..heard it a month ago when the car needed a fix 🙂


  212.  #212Tracy on December 9, 2009 at 12:32 am

    Loving everyone’s much insight.
    I feel that i have lived with so much guilt and fear that i keep attracting situations that justify it…
    I loved Daria’s different view points and it made me feel powerful knowing looking at it on different points of view…
    Tinque was spot on when she mentioned about carrying so much fear over things to come yet the truth is there are a multitude of possibilities on how it would end up…so i ask myself why my head is always going to the negative…thinking the worst..carrying the guilt and fear…
    Thank you ladies..this feels like a big AHA moment for me…

  213.  #213Nikita on December 9, 2009 at 12:36 am


    I love your story…..I felt connected 🙂

  214.  #214Tracy on December 9, 2009 at 12:40 am

    Love your story…..sounds really lovely!!…..

    I would really lean back on this situation and be cool from the inside…..I have often felt excited when someone i really cared about decided to come back to my life and there is a feeling of anxiety i feel and fear over how to behave…I feel its a good opportunity to practice being authentic…have fun let go and be open to the situation
    I feel that what really does feel good to achieve is the feeling that i have options…that i am choosing to be with him,to invite him back to my goddess self…I am working on feeling that and being that right now…Hugs!

  215.  #215Tracy on December 9, 2009 at 12:48 am

    I feel connected to your story…
    I have felt in the past that life was supposed to be a certain way,and people were supposed to behave a certain way…..When i finally let go…and i am learning to be open to life and what is,life does feel wonderful and i am noticing so much goodness in it…
    I still feel the pain and i am working on feeling good about myself but i feel less judgmental and i feel that i have a much less burden on my shoulders..
    I love life more right now…I don’t know what lies ahead but i am learning to trust that it will be wonderful..that life is beautiful..
    Wow…it feels like i have carried so much guilt and my mind is starting to ask questions….

  216.  #216Paula on December 9, 2009 at 3:33 am

    Melanie – “I do feel somewhat uncomfortable and anxious because it seems I am in the minority with my beliefs and feelings here. I do not want people to dislike me, because that does not feel good to me.”

    I feel very appreciative of your presence here. I feel thankful for your contributions and your sharing.

    I’m not long up and need to go and get my cat from the vet. So, I skim read the comments (you were busy while I was sleeping!)

    I am on this blog to learn. I have had many paths and gurus and ‘answers’ in my life so far. I’m a seeker. I have learnt a lot from all of them and I continue to learn. At this stage in my life, I trust myself. I have a good BS detector. I tend not to change my views on things unless I have direct experience of them. I don’t believe that anyone has all the answers. I rarely take advice! (I learn the hard way 🙁 )

    I imagine we all have different backgrounds here, some of us are from different cultures, we all have had different life experiences and hurts and trigger points. I’m not sure what I’m trying to say -sorry.

    It’s probably not surprising that we don’t all agree…

  217.  #217J on December 9, 2009 at 4:59 am

    Thank You Rori and Nikita and all those with encouraging words. This may sound like an excuse to make it right I was with a married man. But I want to give some background. We had been friends for years. Then both of our marriages had started to crumble. Thats when we became better friends still friends though. We worked together people would tease that we were more. Then we got to thinking maybe we are more we kissed. We talked about it. Then one day we looked at each other and went oh shit I am in love with you What do we do now? We talked about the pain we would cause the trouble it would be. We both said we wanted out of our marriages. And not because of the other. Maybe having each other gave us the strength but I was leaving my husband anyways and he had moved out too. He has been living elsewhere for almost a year now. But he misses his kids and she is hurt and uses the kids to get to him. He went back once we decided that maybe he did not give 100% to his marriage so he wanted to try again. It hurt like hell but that lasted a week and he left again. So now we have a plan we both leave our current jobs both file divorce papers. But he cant tell his wife we are back together or his family because they all want him back with her. So we are hiding it now and his dad is dying so he cant create pain at his parents house. So its now his dad in bedridden at home holding on barely its the holidays his kids are missing him and elling him to come home so mommy stops crying herself to sleep. So he goes back. So yesterday the 8th I gave him the letter I am done I can not and will not torture myself or his family anymore we cried and said we love each other and then goodbye. He said he will live the rest of his life miserable at home as long as his kids are happy. He was my bestfriend I dont want him unhappy and I don’t want to make it any harder or easier on him by talking to him so no more seeing or communicating. But I worry about him and I want to call to make sure he is ok. But that is not my job any more his wife will take care of his needs. I can say that but it hurts really bad. I belive he is in love with me but whats it matter now right? No divorce papers no relationship. But for two years now he ahs been my support through the hardest times of my life. and i just started a new job have no real close friends. Who do I talk to when my ex hurts my feelingsor my mom makes me mad or my kids drive me crazy. And why the hell did he hurt me so so so bad?!

  218.  #218Rhonda on December 9, 2009 at 5:44 am

    Cont. From my previous post.
    Am I more hurt thay I’m coming to realize
    He never cared at all? How can a man
    Have passion n bed then the moment u
    Leave he is making plans with another
    Woman? Is it rejection? I’m lost or refuse
    To see what it is?

  219.  #219Simply Shannon on December 9, 2009 at 8:20 am

    Rewriting the story is a rationalization/ justification and an indication of an addiction? Ouch. I feel judged by those labels. I feel in agreement about wanting to feel good but not at the expense of others. However, it feels overconfident to assume that anything I’m doing hurts anyone else (or pleases them for that matter). I’ve learned good and bad through my own unique experiences. It feels better to me to do what feels good and let the rest of the world sort its own feelings out.

    And Melanie, no worries please about what you are writing here. I want to be triggered so that I can work out my feelings on Siren Island, where I feel relatively safe to experiment. 🙂

  220.  #220Nikita on December 9, 2009 at 8:29 am


    thx ladies….

  221.  #221LJ-Please help on December 9, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Dock, ABC, Nikita…and others

    Hi Dock, I originally missed your post so just saw it today, that’s why I hadn’t responded til now.
    Although, I’m not glad you experienced the silent treatment, I’m glad that someone can relate to the “silent treatment”.
    As I’ve looked back in my relationship with him, I realize that once the incidents of “silent treatment” occurred, (periods of 2-3weeks with no contact, talking, etc….w/o explanation or real reason) that’s when things slowly started going downhill. I was losing trust, plus, I started feeling like I was walking on eggshells. I did a lot of research on “the silent treatment” and found that it is pretty much classified as one of the worst forms of emotional/abuse. Because when you receive it, you are basically being “ostracized”, and it’s a way for them to punish you in a sense. Punish you for their anger, that they feel in their own right to blame you for,since these people cannot take any responsibility for their own actions. It’s a control, power thing with these men. It’s something that has left me emotional scars. This is actually what I’m going through as is. I said that we broke up 4 months ago, basically beccause after I confronted him about ignoring me for a week, got in a lil argument, and there was the silent treatment again. I did make my efforts to reconnect for there was no resolution, explanation, etc. as I explained in my original post. And then I received that heart wrenching letter as I stated. So in essence, the silent treatment has been going on for 4 months, because this time I didn’t chase after him. So, after a few weeks, I assumed we were DONE. Yet it’s killing me that there is no closure, resolve, understanding, etc. and it’s hard to stop questioning in my mind the what, why, and how–everything he’s thinking in his mind.

    Thanks ABC-also for your related story and advice…and thank you as well Nikita for your insight…I am actually in my office with the door shut b/c he is right around the corner…I neglected to mention in my prior post another thing that makes this so difficult is ex “A” is what you would call “Mr. Personality”. Mr. Charismatic”…he is loud, always laughing, always talking, always has everyone in his office, and talking, telling stories, b.s.-ing all day long…obviously when I met him..i was attracting to his personality b/c I am very outgoing, fun, high-spirited, a jokester…etc…., but he is like a big showman, huge ego, and full of himself…i realize that so much now….but it makes it hard because..i have to hear him laughing, joking, having fun, talking loud, etc. all day…Granted..i do a good job on my side by acting like it doesn’t bother me and by laughing and hanging out with other co-workers..but it just irks me so much….it irks me that the good fun, side of him that I once had…is displayed to all these people…yet since I was close to him in an intimate realtionship..i got to see the dark, bad side that these people have no clue about….the side that in the end..treated me with so much disrespect, and cut me off out of his life I was “amputated” ….and throwing me away like a piece of garbage after 4 years, and after he knew how much I loved and cared for him……..there my anger coming out….I wonder if he know that I see through him…i wonder what he feels for me, if anything at all…or if there is guilt, any remorse, anything on his end….i feel sometimes like he is so egotistical, and arrogant, that he feels like I lost out on him, ..and that he has no empathy whatsoever for how he treated me, doesn’t care, or doesn’t know how bad he hurt me….In my research of the “silent treatment”..
    I came across NPD..Narcissitic Personality disorder…and I was astounded…this guy fits so much of the description from everything I read…i can’t say he has NPD or not, but all I’m saying is that alot of the descriptions of the Narcissist behavior were so accurate and right on …it was scary….even the fact that he is “mr. personality”…is a description…..the sad thing is that if he is one of these people..basically..they do have no empathy for anyone…no remorse…they use you for what is called “Narcissistic supply” where they gain what they need most..admiration, adoration, and attention,..and they are constantly seeking it from other people, other women, etc…..anyone…what they present to you is their “false self” and that’s who you fall for…once you start to see their true self…which is the part of them that they can nev er face…and the part that they don’t want exposed….they cut you off b/c you are no longer a supply for them to feed their egos…..
    ….anyway..those are just my thoughts for now…
    Love you ladies…

  222.  #222alias girl on December 9, 2009 at 11:38 am

    i feel frozen. i need help. i am requesting assistance in a rather broad stroke from the universe today. thank you. i love feeling good. i love feeling positive. and i love sharing my joy and gifts with the world.

    even so i love all my feelings. even my frozen paralyzed want to sleep forever feelings. thank you. you will take over from here, universe. thanks.

  223.  #223Simply Shannon on December 9, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Hey Alias Girl! I’m sending warm hugs to unfreeze you. (((HUGS))) 🙂 I’ve been wondering where you’ve been.

    Bouncy house later? Miss ya girl! Love, The Universe

  224.  #224Paula on December 9, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    I’ve missed your sweetness AG and your insights and your warmth. I bet I’m not the only one who has missed you either.

    Sending you a warm hug on a warm breeze across the Atlantic Ocean.

  225.  #225alias girl on December 9, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    oh thank you so much for hugs simply shannon and paula. i feel appreciative. (and hugged!) argh. hugs are good for the nerbous system. argh.

    argh. i feel frozen.a nd guilty for feeling frozen. i feel week and desparate and victimy. i love all my feelings. i love all my glorious feelings

    sleepy z z zz z z z



    i love you three feelings. i love you, hug you, embrace you, and honor you.

    depressed. zzzzzzzz. argh. love u 2.

  226.  #226Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    I feel grateful for Nikita’s and Paula’s words. They feel encouraging and supportive to me. Paula, I like what you said about your learning journey. I feel that way too. My daughter lovingly teases me about always being on a “learning journey.” I like what you said about trusting yourself. I have learned to trust myself too. I find that my “gut” can be trusted, even when it goes against “logic.” I feel grateful for how much I have learned and continue to learn about myself and others. I feel grateful for what I am learning about myself and others on this blog. I also feel nervous.

    Shannon : “Rewriting the story is a rationalization/ justification and an indication of an addiction.” I feel sad that you misunderstood and misquoted me. My words were: “The speculations of different scenarios feel to me like rationalizations and justification — defense mechanisms often apparent with addictions of any type.” Crucial words here are “FEEL TO ME” — it was not a judgment, or even a statement of belief — I was simply expressing my FEELINGS. 🙂

    Also, I did not say that this instance of “rewriting the story” is an “indication of an addiction.” I said that rationalization and justification are defense mechanisms that are often part of addictions, which is just true. I did not say that this current situation involved addiction. I feel irritated about being misquoted, and I feel sad that you felt “ouch.”

    I feel extremely confused — and irritated — that you feel “judged” — because I was not judging — I was saying how *I* feel. I did not say everyone else should feel the way I feel, or make the choices that I make.

    I feel glad that you said “no worries please about what you are writing here.” I feel triggered, too, and although it is an uncomfortable feeling, it reveals places in me where healing needs to happen. 🙂

  227.  #227Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    Daria, I feel interested and curious about your feeling that it was not speculation and twisting of reality. I feel appreciative that you have a different perception of the event. I feel appreciative that you have different beliefs.
    I feel amused that you feel mistrustful hearing me say I did not feel guilty. I feel/have felt guilty many times in my life, but that, for some reason, was not one of them. I feel that the times I have felt the most guilt are the times when people have chastised me about my actions — so my guilt has come not from my own actions, but from people’s accusatory responses to my actions. In that incident, because the man was a good bit older than me, and I was so young, most people’s responses toward me were compassionate and understanding, and not at all judging. Maybe that is why I did not feel guilty. (They blamed him, and almost saw me as a victim, although I did not see myself as a victim, because, as I said, I was following my pleasure.)

    I feel uncomfortable condoning stealing from other people, even if it’s just lifesavers.

    I feel irritated and misunderstood by this statement: “I feel afraid that people posting here will feel pulled down by the idea that they should not follow their pleasure.” I did not say people “should not follow their pleasure.” What I said is that *I* *I* *I* have learned to follow my joy, rather than ONLY my pleasure, because that is what works best for ME and MY life. I have a great capacity for pleasure of many kinds, and for ME I have learned that it is irresponsible for ME to just do what feels good without regard for others. For ME, joy is part of living consciously and aware of my inner self, ALL of myself, the dark and the light, embracing and accepting all of me, and then choosing to RESPOND to life in a conscious way, rather than REACT in an unconscious way.

    I feel frustrated that when I share MY feelings as MY feelings they are perceived as judgments about what other people should feel.

    Maybe the problem here is that I have never had a problem following my pleasure, so I am coming at this from the opposite end of the spectrum from many others here. I feel sad that some people have not been able to feel free to feel pleasure. I feel hopeful that maybe we can appreciate the fact that we are metaphorically standing on opposite banks of the pleasure river — I have swum through and across that river and carry with me the ability to enter it again at will, and others are in the middle of crossing it for the first time. I feel hopeful that we can respect each other’s place in the journey.

    It did feel good to sleep with him. My decision to do it differently next time (a decision I had to make just this week again), was based not on my feelings (because my feelings were like yeah yeah yeah do it do it It will feel good and powerful and fun and sexy) but on a rational (masculine?) decision to not participate in hurting the guy’s wife and kids. Sure, they might end up being hurt in some other way, but I choose not to be involved.

    Maybe it is all about semantics. Maybe we are all saying the same thing but using different words. E.g., why don’t I want to hurt them? Because I don’t want to hurt them. Which, maybe, you could say that “not wanting to hurt them” means I am following my FEELINGS, my PLEASURE of what I “don’t want.” I just wouldn’t use the word “pleasure” in that context, but maybe that’s just me.

    Daria: “I don’t want to hear about how doing what feels good is not good.” I feel frustrated, because that is not what I said! I feel concerned about people mishearing things because of their own pain and insecurity. I do that, too. My TN man pointed that out to me: “You read just a little too far into what I say,” and he said it is because of my insecurities.I feel he is right! I worry that he is saying certain things, but if I look at what he actually said, he isn’t. It is just my insecurities hearing something different.

    “how to care about other people and ignore my own feelings” — I feel I can honor my feelings and care about other people at the same time, that it’s not an either/or. For ME. 🙂

    I feel sad, Daria, that you feel bad and guilty.

    I feel that sometimes what FEELS bad to me is actually GOOD for me — e.g., when I had ovarian cancer surgery in March, it did not feel good to have the surgery, but it was very very good for me. I do not feel threatened by what doesn’t feel good to me.

    I love the work you’ve done to trust yourself, too.

  228.  #228Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    “I feel judged” feels to me like a blaming statement, rather than an actual feeling statement.

  229.  #229Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    Another example: feeling “triggered” does not feel good to me, but I feel it is an invitation to learn and grow, therefore I embrace those “bad” feelings of feeling triggered, and plunge straight into that darkness of Bad feeling so I can explore it and learn and grow from it. It feels yucky to dive into it. I have spent a lot of my life running away from bad feelings, avoiding bad feelings. I used to feel threatened by what felt bad. I liked what felt good. I followed what felt good. I am no longer afraid of what feels bad. Entering those bad feelings and walking through to the other side takes me to a place of joy and freedom that FOR ME far surpasses pleasure (and yet includes pleasure). FOR ME. But maybe I’m just weird. Quite possible.

  230.  #230Daria on December 9, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Hi Melanie –

    I feel weird reading your post.

    I feel good to be written too,

    I also feel a lil sad and unheard… and kinda powerless.

    Also I did not mean that you said those things. That was me processing my own thoughts, feelings and voices.

    I do feel like ultimately we mean the same thing, and thats what feels so frustrating about it.

    Yes to me joy and pleasure are mostly interchangeable.

    I feel weird and judged and pushed away… not that YOU ARE DOING THIS TO ME.

    I am feeling that way though. And I feel mistrustful

    I feel open to your being here and I feel glad to be triggered.

    I also feel drained.

    I feel angry reading this:

    “The speculations of different scenarios feel to me like rationalizations and justification — defense mechanisms often apparent with addictions of any type.”

    My voice says:

    Feelings are: sad, angry, glad, afraid and their nuances

    so just sticking ‘feel to me’ in the middle of a thought doesn’t make it a feeling.

    I feel like a control freak. I feel weird and desperate.

    So I feel guilty because I feel like im trying to limit your expression etc. I guess my VOICE is sayint stuff. I feel uncomfortable.

    I can see how the “twisting” of the story feels scary, bad, unsafe, angryfying

    I also ‘see’ how it could ahve a similar feeling… to the feeling i have about rationalizations… which is what you said


    I feel triggered

    anyways this feels confusing and

    I feel defensive

    I feel concerned that I fell in some kind of energy pattern vortex here ….

    some “triggers” getting activated for both of us…

    I feel concerned and fascinated like we’re replaying a past pattern for ourselves

    although i am asiginig it to you in my mind…

    it might as well be mine

    kinda like arguing with my cousin maybe….

    or maybe even my mom….

    like no no i didnt say that… i said this (same thing)…. oh i feel bad you felt bad… judgement judgement… statement of world peace

    I feel triggered! I feel like IM BEING JUDGEMENTAL

    I feel judgemental of my being judgemental

    Im feeling TRIGGERED!

    Trigger on…

    I love my feelings…

    and that feels like

    a tightness in my chest

    and a squeezing in my thigh

    I love my tightness in my chest and my squeezing in my thigh

    and that feels like suddenly sitting up straight and i love my sitting up straight and that feels like

    more tightness in my chest and I LOVE THE TIGHTNESS IN MY CHEST

    hehe and that feels like totaly relaxing the tightness and moany noises out my mouth lol

    and that feelslike more tightness and i love my moany noises my embarassment my relaxation and retightenting

    and that feels like a big sigh

    i love my big sigh

  231.  #231Daria on December 9, 2009 at 2:53 pm


    “But maybe I’m just weird. Quite possible.”

    I feel sooooo triggered by this omgosh.

    This feels like confusion, and like pulling me to say, no no youre not weird, and at the same time rejecting that and saying YEAH YOU ARE WEIRD.

    I guess i would call this (thinking) passive agressiveness. Im so triggered thinking about a friend of mine who triggers me in a way that feels similar grrrrrr

    I feel soooo confused. THis feels sooo unusual…

    I feel like somoenes sitting on my chest too. like a lil gnome hehe.

    I feel so fascinated how this is triggering me!

    this is MY TRIGGER.

    I just feel confusion… and frustration that of not knowing what to say write exaclty…

    “I won’t be able to convince anyone that what I say is THE truth”

    This feels weird! I don’t want to convince anyone. I don’t have to convince anyone… what is going on with me … this feels weird…

    I feel like im picking up some subtle vibe that is lost out of context.

    I feel vindictive and agressive…

    this feels weird!!! it feels uncomfortable???

    Like anyone could say innocently”” ohh but i didnt mean that… ”

    and I would feel stuck and wordless and confused… and i wouldnt be able to PROVE WHAT I SAID WAS TRUE

    because it may very well not be true to some other person


    I feel ike im jumping to catcha hoppy bunny.

    I feel WEIRD.

    This feels like a weird trigger… I love my weird trigger. I love myself.

    I love feeling like IM AN INSENSITIVE BITCH. I love feeling like IM THE BAD GUY.

    HA IM not


    i Love all my feelings.

  232.  #232Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Point taken about inserting “feel to me” in the middle of a thought. Okay, then, I feel sad and suspicious and leery about the speculations and twisting. 🙂

    I like this: “I feel concerned and fascinated like we’re replaying a past pattern for ourselves.” I feel curious and interested in that possibility too! It does feel very familiar to me. I almost always feel “outsider” feelings. Almost always feel different and misunderstood. That is part of why I love TN man — he is the same way. And with him, I feel NOT different. I feel understood. I feel “insider” feelings with him. Warm, welcome, cozy. I have never felt all those things with any of the men in my life before. He has aspergers. Maybe I have aspergers too.

    I love this: “although i am asiginig it to you in my mind…” I feel giggly about that. I feel trusting about that.

    I feel happy about this: “statement of world peace” It reminds me of Miss Congeniality. It also feels loving and good to me. 🙂

  233.  #233alias girl on December 9, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    argh. i feel somewhat interested in this back and forth trigger session. i learn when i read goddesses working it out.

    argh. I FEEL ARGH. ARGH I FEEEEEEL ARGH ARGH I FEEL ANGRY AT MY ARGH. i love that i feel angry at my argh. i love that i can feel myself channeling my father and SCOLDING THE ARGH RIGHT OUT OF ME. haaha which never works.


    oh hi dad.

    so what good

    blaming if higher up than depressed and overwhelmed and frozen and oversleeping


    remove this demon universe. i have had my way with it and it has been quite the adventure living with this MR. FREEZE MONSTER for all these years who just freezes me up instead of gets me back on track. so yes, goodbye mr freeze, it’s been interesting but not quite fun. you are free now to freeze up all my enemies. hahahaha. please go work your freeze skills on MY BEHALF and freeze up anyone who has any Thought of even hurting me in the SLIGHTEST. just ice’em a lil bit and i feel vindictive but also higher up on the scale.


    see you later mr freeze. so happy we are on the same team now. pshew. that feels good.

    ok i am feeling better. a little but better like daria had mentioned. i can get there a little bit at a time.

    ok. good.

  234.  #234Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Daria, I feel confused about your being triggered by what I said. I was not being passive-aggressive, nor sarcastic, nor looking for validation or anything else at all. Passive-aggressive behavior is used to get a certain response — I was not trying to get any response. I feel indifferent to whether you think I am weird or not. Being weird does not bother me. I was just saying out loud what was in my head. I feel sad that you feel so triggered. I feel amused and fascinated by all this. I feel compassionate. I feel bad that I am upsetting you. I feel scared.

  235.  #235Daria on December 9, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    hey! i felt mostly good except for the

    “speculations and twisting” part. um i feel mad. MY words were not speculation and twisting.

    they were 1. my current most clear thought chosen perception

    and 2. alternate possible perspectives

    not “Twisting” which feels evil, twisted, and weird

    and not quite “speculations” which I feel ENRAGED reading for some reason… it makes me feel like im slipping off an ice float in a cold ocean, or like im getting fired in a corporate board meeting

    other than that i felt GOOD reading that comment!

    oh except i felt amused and misunderstood and a lil exhasperated but amused about the wrold peace

    iw as writing the world peace thing as an example of what didnt feel good to me, a passive agressive pattern of stuff that used the “world peace” statement as a “cover up”

    i feel kinda interested that you thought differently of it


    and amused

    and weird and pressed in my chest!!!

    feels weird!

    love all my feelings

    im feeling lovey including feelings now!

    this feels strange. but good right now hehe

    aaah i heard a sarcastic voice..

    i feel intense and focused, and good too

  236.  #236Daria on December 9, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    aaa Melanie… mmm welll

    I can see how perhaps you dont think what you said was passive agressive and I did

    I noticed that when people say passive agressive things they are not usually aware of it…

    Lol. I think i am saying passive agressive things right now… or at least patronizing…

    I feel like apologizing too now… it seems im working out some kinda clunky communication pattern.

  237.  #237Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    I feel interested in what you meant about world peace, because it is JUST like in Miss Congeniality– “world peace” was used both disingenuously and quite sincerely in that movie — and the whole theme was about the difference between those two uses.

  238.  #238Daria on December 9, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    I feel GOOD that i feel triggered. I feel sooo interested and now calmly bemused about this…

    I feel interested in having clear communication with my mom and other peopel that i feel are doing the hoppy bunny


  239.  #239Daria on December 9, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    I THINK are doing the hoppy bunny

    and I feel confused and off balance by it

  240.  #240Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    I feel angry about being patronized. My chest feels tight.

    I feel extremely angry and judged by this: “I noticed that when people say passive agressive things they are not usually aware of it…” My face feels hot and tingly. I feel extremely misunderstood. Very very angry. I feel not believed. I feel like a child being scolded and then patted on the head.

    I was not being passive-aggressive. That is a statement of fact. I feel amused that you feel you know my inner motives better than I do. I feel amused and angry that you feel you are aware I am being p-a, and that I am unaware of it. Maybe it feels strange to you to think that someone doesn’t care whether they are weird or not. Maybe it feels to you like that MUST be p-a. Just goes to show how weird I am. I LOVE my weirdness!! I embrace my weirdness. I feel sad, though, that others are uncomfortable with my weirdness and think that my suggesting I might be weird must be p-a.

    I feel a little better now. I feel like maybe I shouldn’t be here. If I do what Feels good, I will leave and not come back. If I do what is good for me, and follow my joy, I might stay. Ooh. Now I feel afraid that people will think I am pulling them to say “No no stay, we want you here” or “Yes please go.” But I am not doing that. I am not being p-a. I feel very amused by that, because people that know me know that I am not at all p-a, in fact quite the opposite. But I feel understanding that it might look that way to people who don’t know me and are only seeing words on a computer screen. I do not care if anyone says stay or go. I am not looking for that. I will do what I feel is best for me in this situation, regardless of what other people say or think about it.

    I feel anxious that Daria will still believe I am being p-a. That feels bad. I feel hopeful that I will be able to work through these bad feelings, regardless of what is said about me.

  241.  #241Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    What is the hoppy bunny?

  242.  #242alias girl on December 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    melanie. i feel encouraging for you to stay. truly. 🙂 or if you leave, please consider coming back. I used to break up with this blog every three months because i felt so freaking triggered.

    but if one is going to be triggered, this was actually a really good place for me to do it. i learned and gained a lot by it.

    i feel supportive. 🙂

    i am not taking sides. i feel supportive of goddess daria as well.

    i feel confident you will both work it out and realize your own crapola. which honestly, i don’t fully see because i am not fully involved in the exchange or triggered.

    just thought i’d butt in with a word of support. go team.

  243.  #243Daria on December 9, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    mmm i feel passively agressed!

    i feel amused and incredulous, and i feel attacked and not good, and i feel annoyed and i feel like not participating in the dialogue, it feels uncomfortable

    i fele like disconnecting and i feel like pulled to wanting to pointing stuff out

    now i feel suspicious of myself…. ahh i feel afraid… i feel like im doing passive agressive stuff now by saying i feel passively agressed…
    but i do… right?

    what do i feel?

    i feel annoyed, dismissive, disconected, misunderstood, angry, judgemental, frustrated, angry

    angry angry angry angry angry

    i feel angry

    i feel tight in my chest and i also feel powerful and safe, but … not good

    i feel mad

    i feel mad
    i feel mad

    i love my anger

    i love my anger

    i love my anger

    ooooooh i feel so pulled to point stuff out

    i love my anger

    i love my anger

    i love my joy
    i love my joy

    i love the pressure i feel in my chest that feels like having a brick wall pressed on it

    i feel like attacking

    i feel angry i am going to erase the anger stuff i wrote that were judgements

    ok i erased them


    i feel confused and angry

  244.  #244alias girl on December 9, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    me riff too.
    argh. i feel like someone has electrocuted my brain. i feel catatonic. i feel frozen. argh. oh my. i feel unable to go on and yet i am continuing to type. this is a good sign. what if i had to be on my tv show today? how would i manage? i feel worrisome. i feel annoyed. i feel angry. YES! good!

    argh. i feel deflated again. i feel misunderstood and unsupported. i want parents. i want to be taken care of. i want a whole family of people concerned for my welfare and wishing the best for me.

    i feel scared. that’s what this is. pretty sure. deep deep terror. trapped in my cells. please release terror. today would be a good day. i mean, it’s kind of already shot anyway. and then after you release from my body, terror, we can head to church. doesn’t that sound like a perfect plan? i feel devising. i feel slumped. i feel so tired.

    i feel dead. numbed. i feel plfff. i love my plfff feelings. how lovely you shut my whole body down as a survival mechanism. trying to protect me. thank you. i feel very appreciative. i love you protective devices. thank you.

    maybe even we can find new methods and ways of being? maybe we can baby step by baby step leave this trauma behind us completey? yes? i know, it sounds fun, huh. cool. let’s start right now.

    no, no, not with a nap. but with litte more riffing.

    i feel full from eating. i feel cotton in my brain. i feel lightheaded. i feel heat in my body. i feel that drowning feeling in my nose.

    i feel heaviness in my head. i love all of these feelings. i love my body working it out and cooperating and wanting the best for me. i love listening to my feelings. all of them. i honor them all as they are there for me. my benefit. my happiness. my protection. thank you feelings. you are the best. so varied and delightful.

    i feel like crying. my stomach feels full. i think it was the smoothie WITH a meal that is the cause of that.

    i feel appreciative.

    i feel in slow motion. i feel careful. trepidatious. scared. terror. i love you terror. dang, body and mind, i’d feel terrified too if i experienced what you did.

    the universe loves you and supports you. me. us. i feel loved. i feel tears and quivering lip. i feel tired. i feel narcoleptic.

    i want a party. i want a party thrown in my honor. i want the boys i like to be good men who are head over heels for me and treat me great. i want employers bidding for my time and talents. so many employers that i can pick and choose just like with men. i am no beggar. i am talented and lovely and i like helping people.

    i don’t want employers. i want co-creators!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂

    i want a project to come into my mind that is lined up with me and what i want and what i have to offer that i feel excited about.

    i feel heat in my body.

    i feel tired of riffing. i want a party! with a bouncey castle and tarot card readers and a dj and breakdancers and streamers and fireworks and swimming and a fireplace and smoothies. 🙂

  245.  #245Dorothea on December 9, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    weeeee i love what you women are doing it’s fun and liberating! i feel amused and concerned that there are all these delicious honest feelings but something like “i feel like i should leave this blog right now” is somehow extra sensitive compared to the others. it’s just as good of a feeling as the other ones! i don’t want anyone to be afraid. i love what you are doing. i feel a vicarious confidence and bravery. i feel grateful. thank you.

    this doesn’t feel like other exchanges that have been on the blog. this feels GOOD to me. it feels right.

    thank you!

  246.  #246Flipper on December 9, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Got myself a smoothie and I know a Russian tarot card reader, so I’m ready for the party. That would feel so much better frozen sleeping. I KNOW that. I’m afraid to feel it and allow it. I actually go out to parties all the time, and sometimes they include honoring of me Yay me, I love it and don’t feel false modesty or too much wierdness any more). And yet, and yet and yet I feel stuck and blah and scaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrred, frozen stiffffffffffff. waiting waiting waiting. For what? Don’ wanna know, but I do, and then I don’t. Coming down the stairs from the party tonight, I remembered something and then felt my breath snatched away. Literally. Not even enough to go aargh, just some barely audible clicky aacks. That’s why I’m taking singing lessons – If I can make some feel good sounds singing, then maybe I can make some feel good sounds expressing. I messed up the other night at the Love Café, but not completely – a guy gave me a twinkly eye look as he left. I love this blog. I love you all. It feels like an addiction coming on hear oops here maybe hear was more true. I would feel wonderful if Rori and Alias Girl started a Love Café in Los Angeles. I would feel ecstatic if I could come up with such a great idea for MYSELF.

  247.  #247Flipper on December 9, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    Bounce …++… bounce ….broing … bounce

  248.  #248Flipper on December 9, 2009 at 6:49 pm

    What I remembered was not a particular scene with all the usual and endless mind-game junk. It was Feelings, and my throat was torn out and I felt the air stop aack aaack aaack and then teary eyes, but not too blurry so I wouldn’t fall down those uneven 16th century steps. then I felt better feeling how old they were and still there for me to enjoy going up and down and managing not to slip, as they have become somewhat uneven. Yeah, so even speechless voiceless aack feelings feel better than nothingness feelings. Now I feel bad I won’t be a good mum to myself and put myself to bed cuz it’s 2:30 am. The smoothie’s done, there isn’t anymore; it would feel better to sleep in the night and wake up for the day, non ? I feel stubborn.

    LJ etc – yes, abusers are often hidden behind ‘great guys’ and ‘regular guys’ – to everyone but themselves and their victim. I feel powerless, annihilated, inexistant, by the silence. Insidious indeed. You can’t fight back, flee, respond, against the seeming nothing. So you’re always ‘wrong’, and always feel bad, and helpless. That’s how it feels anyway. But what’s really true is that I can leave. I can say NO for myself, whether anyone else wants to hear or not.

  249.  #249Lisa on December 9, 2009 at 7:42 pm


    This is so true: “you’re always ‘wrong’, and always feel bad, and helpless. That’s how it feels anyway. But what’s really true is that I can leave.”

    He is a borderline narcissist, as well, so practiced in the arts of bouncing off any responsibility. I could never hope to get a fair hearing, as I only existed to serve his ego.

    My only power in this situation is to leave, to say “no”. My counselor reminds me that I removed myself from the previous (physically) abuse situation, so I can do it again. I am wondering why it takes me so long to get to a point where I protect myself? I mean, I will put up with a LOT of abuse, fancying that I am strong enough to deal with it, and feeling empathy for my abuser. It takes being dragged through a lot of muck before I will say, “Enough”.

    I am feeling de-centered right now. Everything I did over the last 8 years was directed in one form or another to being with this man. So, I don’t think it’s fully hit me that I must extricate myself from everything I’d invested in.

    However, I am taking Rori’s mantra of “looking out for myself” to heart, and the focus is definitely off of him as it only makes me sad and mad to contemplate what’s gone on. And a bit sick to think of re-entering the game, as I’d done before from a 1,000 different perspectives.

    I am anticipating the conversion into saying “yes” to something better.

  250.  #250Nikita on December 9, 2009 at 8:12 pm



    you might be amazed at the triggering Mercedes and I danced out…..FIREWORK….!!!! and referees…

    we stick around….drift….come back…’s awesome….really……you CAN push the limits….
    I feel surprised how often I notice radical forgiveness here…..great practice too…..restores hope 🙂


  251.  #251Melanie on December 9, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    Thanks Dorothea and Nikita. And AG.

    While eating supper, I realized I now feel forgiving. I feel quiet and peaceful. I feel like I had a good swim in the Maine ocean and am now tired. Tired but peaceful. I feel like hugging Daria and I feel hopeful that Daria might feel like hugging me… 🙂 I feel a bit weepy. Just a little bit. I am listening to Olivia Newton-John sing “Silent Night.” Sleep in heavenly peace…. I wish that for all of us here.

    I feel sad and anxious that I have not heard from TN man since I sent him the pics he wanted this afternoon. I feel worried that he did not like them very much. I feel concerned because he has been more “quiet” again the past couple days. I feel confused because he may just be busy and I don’t know if I should take it personally when I don’t hear from him within MY timeframe. I feel impatient.

    I feel hopeful that I can sleep in heavenly peace tonight even if I do not hear from him before I go to bed.

  252.  #252Simply Shannon on December 9, 2009 at 9:59 pm

    Melanie: I enjoyed reading your riff! That was cool reading you work through that. Thank you for explaining about the labeling I mentioned earlier. I understand now what you meant. I still feel annoyed but I’m working through it.

    Daria: I feel resonance with your posts. I feel angry and want to attack. What is that about?? I feel frustrated. I don’t want to attack. I want to find a better way. Grrrr.

    It really doesn’t matter what words people use or what they were intending. I feel certain feelings when I hear/ read/ do. This process is about understanding why I am reacting / feeling triggered.

    I feel interested in figuring out why *I* felt judgemental about Melanie’s post. I felt very aggressive towards the words I read. I feel compelled to explain and make myself feel right. What is that??

    I felt put down by the labels I read. Like my feelings/ opinions were just swept under the rug. I felt judged but now *I* feel judgemental. I don’t feel it as badly as I would have in the past, but it’s definitely there, lurking. I feel annoyed, like there’s a gnat flying in my face. It’s not enough to make me want to scream but when it flies by my face, I feel angry. I feel tense. Grrr.

    As a child, my father was always right. My opinion didn’t matter. I felt unheard and mute. Then in my marriage, I felt argumentative and loud. My ex and I always fought. Nothing ever felt settled. The pain was never erased. We fought about the same things over and over again.

    I want to feel balanced. I can have an opinion about something but not feel the need to argue it into the ground or explain it to death. I feel annoyed if I have to say something more than once or twice. I don’t want to argue but saying “let’s agree to disagree” feels annoying too. I feel confused.

    Hmmm. I feel tense and tired. I love the intensity I feel at times. It feels good to know I care enough about myself to defend my boundaries. And I do NOT want to feel judged or attacked.

    Sweet dreams lovely Sirens. Shannon

  253.  #253alias girl on December 10, 2009 at 12:12 am

    aw cool flipper. i feel happy you are ready for the party (with a tarot card reader no less!!) i feel intrguied that there are parties thrown in your honor. that feels cheery and good and delicious.

    i do not feel at all daunted by the idea of a party to celebrate me. i feel very deserving. 🙂

    i feel similar to you also about my own feelings. you said ‘even speechless voiceless aack feelings feel better than nothingness feelings’

    yes feelings are better than no feelings for me. even if they are argh and terror.

    though i prefer happy joyous and free.

    yes you are all such lovely sirens. so lovely to behold.

  254.  #254Flipper on December 10, 2009 at 5:37 am

    I felt lovingly accepted being allowed to share in your party idea, AG. Thank you.

    The parties were not thrown in my honor to begin with. But When I’m Feeling Good Vibes about Myself, and then mention some little success or birthday, people have taken it up and joyously give me my 15 mins of glory and show interest, show they’re feeling happy because of me, with and for ME. And the party feels more fun for everyone, celebrating someone’s something together.

    I love sharing. I feel that much of my offers to share were taken as ‘give aways’. And so some people just served themselves, or picked and choosed and left the rest to rot, or then shared their good feelingness gotten thru ME with SOMEONE ELSE, but did not acknowledge where they found this stuff (in ME) or show ME any gratitude. And I just acted as if that was okay, as if I didn’t notice or didn’t feel anything about that. But my feelings were just stuffed down, or disguised by ‘politeness’ or ‘being cool’ and not hung up on my ego stuff, or I pretended to myself I didn’t want to be Their conscience or policeman or mother (which is true enough), but I have not felt how to protect myself or keep myself from being spoliated or left as the person they don’t really feel attached to. I feel so desolate about that, emptied, cluttered with partial, broken bits of myself. So I keep tons of things stockpiled around me, feeling these Things might shore up the holes (they can’t). But sometimes now I say No when I want to say No, instead of always yes, but other times the automatic yes still comes out and I feel bad doing Yes when I feel like No.

  255.  #255Paula on December 10, 2009 at 7:35 am

    AG – I like this “I used to break up with this blog every three months because i felt so freaking triggered”. I feel giggly. I feel so glad you’re back.

    I feel glad you’re here Melanie. I feel impressed by your comments. I feel hopeful that you’ll stay.

    I feel hopeful for your future Lisa.

    I feel lonely for Mercedes.

    I feel good today. My studying is going well and the sun is shining at last!

  256.  #256Hannah on December 10, 2009 at 11:21 am

    I have been dating this guy for about a year. I go to college and he works about 2 hours away. I live with him when I am not at school, so half of my stuff is at his house the other is with me at school. When we lived together everyday during the summer we had no problems. We get along great and always have up until this last month and a half. Fighting for us was never something we did and when we did have a disagreement it usually took 5 minutes to reslove it and be back laughing. Now it’s like every little thing we fight over and it’s ridiculous. Both of us want the relationship to work and we both feel that we have put so much into it that it’d be horrible to just end it. We decided to take a break, but nothing changed because I kept gonig there when I wasn’t in school and we kept doing the same thing. Recently we broke up completely. I asked him if he loved me and he said yes. He told me that it was up to me whether or not the relationship was over for good or not.

  257.  #257Terry on December 10, 2009 at 11:22 am

    What about the man who doesn’t want to “break up” with a woman, but chooses indirect ways to end the relationship, such as: gradually distancing so the relationship fizzles, purposely acting in objectionable so she breaks up with him (and feels good about it), or creating events (such as a fight, which he blames on the woman) that are used as a pretext to end the relationship?
    I think most of us would label these actions as toxic.
    Yet I’ve had at least eight men admit to me that they purposely employed any or all of the above tactics either because they didn’t want to hurt the woman, or because it was easier and more comfortable for them.
    EVERY SINGLE ONE of these men later found a woman he desired, treated her like a queen, and married her. Six of the eight are still married.
    Can a man choose to act toxic in order to get rid of a woman he’s “not into”, and then turn around and treat the next woman great?
    Common sense would tell us no, but I’ve seen a lot of men do it.

    Re:Steve — It doesn’t matter whether he really doesn’t have control over his life or he just wants me to think that. Bottom line is he’s manipulating the relationship so it slowly dies.
    At some point, he decided I wasn’t the woman for him, and I can’t change that.
    Is that toxic, or is he simply trying to avoid a “breakup scene”? And, if he’s NOT THERE anymore, does it even matter?

  258.  #258Simply Shannon on December 10, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Terry: It doesn’t matter. The men are being just as un-authentic (made up word) as the women. Rather than say “I don’t feel connected or attracted to you anymore”, they use covert actions to bring about the end of the relationship. Most men and women do this. If I don’t feel good in a relationship, I’m probably going to distance myself from that person until I find the courage to say “XYZ isn’t working for me. I feel uninterested in pursuing this further.”

    If a man isn’t rowing or leaning towards me, I don’t feel connected, and *I* feel uninterested in pursuing the relationship. Pulling back is not necessarily toxic. He’s just doing something else or pursuing someone else (his business).

  259.  #259Lisa on December 10, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Terry says people often choose indirect ways to end the relationship, and I agree with this. It is just sad that relationships must become so dissipated before they end. What a lot of psychic pain must unfold before the final blow.

    Simply Shannon,

    I agree that pulling back is not necessarily toxic. but that is something different than tormenting someone. Being inauthentic is always painful.

  260.  #260LJ-Please help on December 10, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    I have to say that I believe in most cases that if a man pulls away as a means of “slowly” ending the relationship, I don’t think it has anything to do with considering the womens feelings. I think what the real issue is that when it comes down to it…many man are cowards..and they do not want to feel guilt, and they don’t want to look like the “bad guys”..and they don’t have enough gumption to be honest and forthright.
    I believe that most women would rather have the truth straight up. I would want that…I did..but didn’t get it…
    instead when these men slowly withdraw from us…it drives us insane…we have no answers..we are being strung along for months..even years…and our minds get messed with constantly wondering…why is he acting different?..this way or that way?..why is he not calling?..all of these questions and many more run through our heads and screw with us….and because they don’t tell us the TRUTH..that maybe they don’t want a relationship…b/c again..they are cowards and it’s onl;y to benefit their own EGOs, we assume that they still want to be in one……so why we feel things are not quite right..we begin to DO OVERFUNCTION…to make things better…to make things work…b/c we want things to work…and as women we work very hard for our relationships….so in conclusion….i do not believe that weaseling your way out of a relationship by a man has ANYTHING to do with our FEELINGS and letting us down easy….if they say that, it is just an excuse…I feel it has everything to do with them…it is completely selfish thing to do…
    Granted…it is equally selfish and mean to just be a DICK and walk away from a women w/ NO explanation, or cause a fight, give the silent treatment, or be an extreme ass……..however, i feel that a REAL man would have an honest, forthright, talk with the woman if he cared for her…he’d address it to her or break the news to her..forthright and honestly…that’s what I would want…us women don’t have time for Bulls**t…just tell us the truth…don’t be cruel, rude, …be loving..but give us the truth!!!Quit feeding us the Bulls**t!

  261.  #261ABC on December 10, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    hi Rori,

    can you elaborate on the therapist thing? How did you pull yourself out of that and turned it around??

    it’s really hard to imagine you that way–low self-esteem and be involved with a married man…

    i am no longer attracted to bad and toxic men any more, i “catch” them before i get involved, but my problem is i am not attracted to good men, either! I have no idea how to turn this around.

    how did you turn yourself around and get turned on to a good man finally????

  262.  #262Daria on December 10, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    LJ – ouch!

    I feel so much judgement and indirect anger in your post!

    I feel horrible thinking that men are cowards!

    I think perhaps they sometimes end things indirectly because maybe they are not sure they want to end things…

    I know I have done this in the past with men

    I would like to think that they are doing the best they can.

    And yes in my past, it WAS because I didn’t want to hurt his feelings that I stayed in a relationship that wasn’t good for me.

    It sounds like you are saying if they end it slowly they are cowards, and if they end it quickly they are jerks! Wow! What’s a man who wants to end something to do?

    And what about one who’s not sure he wants to end something…

    I feel angry and judgemental reading this. It sounds like Putting the Blame on the Man. Well…

    if the woman didn’t like the letting her down easy, why didn’t SHE not be the COWARD and end it?

    I feel triggered mega time.

    I feel concerned that blaming men rah rah is not getting a woman to her loving herself yet open hearted to all men place.

    And I feel defensive! of men!!!

  263.  #263Wendy on December 10, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    To make a point. I don’t think it matters if we are male or female. I know lots of girls who have acted the exact same way to end a relationship. Maybe it is easier to just not call. Not hurt any feelings by saying that you don’t want to see them anymore. Because than you have to say why. And if you do tell them why…… do you have to feel responsible for how they feel. Rather we are male or female is it right to just step on someones feelings. HOw do you let then down easy (so to speak)
    Everyone is talking about….. I Feel this and I Feel that and now I feel like this. It is wonderful to be able to say that and to be able to express it.
    In reality we all want to be loved and accepted just as we are. And we should always care about other people and their feelings as much as we care about ourselves.
    As we, as a society learn more and care more and teach each other how to treat others and how to treat ourselves. As we, as a society learn more and care more and teach each other how to treat others and how to treat ourselves. Things will change. How we act now in our relationships is teaching our children how to act in theirs as adults. What is accepted now was not accepted 50 or 60 years ago.
    Things will change again. And keep improving til one day we can all look at each other and be totally authentic and loving to each other. Until that day we all have to try and forgive each other. Because without forgivness
    the world will not learn a thing.

  264.  #264Lisa on December 10, 2009 at 7:55 pm


    I think this is what Rori is getting when she says, “Don’t row for him”. If he is pulling away, he is pulling away.

    We women overanalyze, and do spend years doing this. I certainly have. The truth is, in the end, you have only yourself when the frayed rope finally breaks. I don’t know why we (I) work so hard for validation from one who is retreating. For myself, I know I did not feel right self-esteem. I realize I was trying to get it from someone who was tenuous in that area himself. I was trying to stand him upright, so I could then lean on him — wow, what an effort!

    Truth: Doesn’t matter how or why he leaves. There must be 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover. Fact is, he is gone. Now we must work on ourselves, and make the space for something nourishing and wholesome to enter. I know it, and you do, too. Like you, I am hurting, but unwilling to spend any more energy deconstructing him.

    He has been cruel and retreating, and it is fit that I go to protect myself. It is what he wants; he has been pushing the boundaries for some time. He may well be lacking and petty, and if so, then I certainly don’t need him, right? 🙂

  265.  #265DocK on December 11, 2009 at 9:50 am

    I knew a guy – very young – that did tell me that he WANTED to break up with his GF but he wouldn’t tell her. He just decided to do things, as described, to get her to walk away. He told me she would ask him if something was wrong and he would say, “NO” and just continue behaving like this. In my opinion, he had a warped idea that this was being “kinder” to her than jus telling her.

    I tried to explain to him (before Rori’s tools – I was using masculine voice) that this just makes a woman think she is nuts because she can tell something is wrong – yet she asks – he says no – but something IS wrong. That would certainly make ME feel crazy!!

    I don’t call people cowards but I do call me people courageous when I see it. Courage isn’t NOT being afraid to do something – courage is being afraid and doing it anyway.

    I think sometimes we – men and woman – are very self-protective and we just don’t want to go through something – the hard conversation, seeing the other person upset, getting yelled at, experience the other’s anger – so we go about things in a way that is designed to minimize that – but it IS at the other person’s expense.

    I would rather have someone just come out and tell me, gently as possible, – “just not working out” and I, at least, have the opportunity to ask some questions and talk a bit – not to convince anyone of anything – I will NEVER chase a man or be perceived as someone’s “ball and chain” – but to get understanding that might help me grow in my next relationship.

    No matter how “bad” a past relationship has been – if a new guy asks me about past relationships or why my last one broke up I say, ‘I feel grateful for everything I learned from my last relationship(s). It just didn’t work out but I feel confident that I learned and grew a lot from it. I don’t want to dwell on the past – I want to embrace the future.’ and I smile and let it go. No matter how much of a “nightmare” relationship you may have just walked out of – a new guy doesn’t really want to hear that – even if he asks.

  266.  #266Simply Shannon on December 11, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Dock: It feels interesting to me when you say the man you knew would say “no” when asked if anything was wrong. That feels the same as when a man asks me if anything is wrong, and I say “no, I’m fine”. Isn’t it funny how we expect others, especially men, to “tell us the truth and cut the BS” and yet we (women) don’t always do the same?

    I totally agree with what you said. It actually makes me feel more gentle towards men when they pull away. They aren’t any better at being authentic than we are. All they know is it doesn’t feel good so they pull back. Oddly enough when a woman doesn’t feel good, we often lean forward. How odd, right?

    Interesting and enlightening! Thanks for helping me see that! Shannon

  267.  #267Lisa on December 11, 2009 at 10:54 am


    Thank you for sharing your words to the next man re. what you’ve learned from the previous. That is a very gracious way to answer an awkward question ( one to which which I agree men do not really want the greusome details.)

    Simply Shannon:

    Two good observations: Both men and women give the “nothing wrong” speech. But with men, it is in the service of actually distancing, whereas women use it as a ruse (as we often do) do get him to feel bad or to come forward, which rarely works.

    So, we could say that men, in the realm of inauthenticity, ARE being more authentic. When they pull away, they are really meaning to pull away; when women do, they are actually leaning forward, or hoping that he does. Men’s actions are not as hard to read.

  268.  #268Lisa on December 11, 2009 at 11:07 am

    O.K. , now for something completely different:

    As my 8-year (mainline — ha!) relationship had many gaps, I took on a lover two years ago. This man is the antithesis of mainline guy: Sweet, caring, attentive, interested. All of the ideal things one should seek in a mate, but I am not in love with him, not attracted to him that deeply. He is a good lover, and that was really my only interest with him, and I have been pretty clear about this in my actions. With him, it was a booty call, albeit a sweet one.

    Now, like ABC says, I am confronting the fact that I am not attracted to “nice”. I can jump in with both feet and ride the bull of a bad and troubled relationship, never doubting my commitment to the effort, but I am finding it much harder to transition to actually liking and accepting nice. he feels so needy. I am turned off by his professions of love, and “marry me”.

    It is not that he is a hopeless catch; he has just earned his doctorate and has his own one-man repair business. But to me, he is not attractive fully as a mate, for other reasons. And the more he says he “needs me”, the more repelled I am. I took him on as a lover, and that is really all I want with him. I do not wish to make the transition to something more.

    I believe this is the universe teaching me a lesson. With my lover, I have become like my former relationship partner — I only want one thing, and I resent when he pushes for something more. I become turned off and even repelled. I think: “Isn’t it clear to him that I want nothing more?” I come over to visit him only at night; I do not invite him to my place (because that would have been awkward during the on-again times with my ex-), I rarely eat with him. What isn’t he getting?

    And yet … he is behaving much as I did in my other relationship. And I do not find it attractive.

    Lessons abound. Input welcome.

  269.  #269Rori Raye on December 11, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Hannah – Why are you fighting? Whatever you used to do to solve conflict – why isn’t that working now? Love, Rori

  270.  #270LJ- on December 11, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Daria–i understand your point …I probably do come off sounding really judgemental right now -it’s just b/c in my case…my recent breakup…i know that my man was a coward..i knew something was wrong..and when I wanted to talk to him…i was blown off..i was given the silent treatment..and in the was the same..he never talked to me face to face and it has been 4 months..and i work with him..he is around the corner right now..joking and cracking up loudly and abnoxiously…i have so much anger toward him…then at the same tim I have my feelings of love and miss him…it’s crazy….
    i assume he is with other women or was along the last year we were together..and instead of telling me..he would me less affection..paying less attention..treating me more direspectful (i can see that now since time has passed)…the thing is..he knows I love(d) him…and he has to know somehwere what a jerk he was…but he doesn’t care..he will necver say he is sorry..he just moves on..and has no remorse it seems for what he has done….i keeo wondering if he feels anything…
    The thought of him with another woman and happy with another woman just makes me sick to my stomach…i walked down the hallway today and he was coming out of his office.. so i just said hello, he said hi and I kept walking….i imagine what he is doing on his friday nights and saturday nights and who he is talking to on the phone and what women he is taking just hurts…yes..i am still hung up on this guy…even though I know he is bad for me…how he treated me was bad…i can’t stop loving him and can’t stop missing him (the him that he was with me in the past)…i know it sounds crazy but that’s how I feel…had things ended smoothly..i could still walk by him and say hi..and mean it..and not feel the tension and friction I feel everytime I am around him…..i miss talking to him…i wish that one day..i will get to talk to him and let him know how he made me feel…etc…i worry that that day will never come…it’s hard to picture going through the next year working this close to him and never talking…it’s so screwed up…there are about 12 people on our floor…we all talk to each other…it used to be that me and my guy were always in each other’s offices constantly…people knew something was probably going on but we never admitted it except to a cuple of poeple….now we are the ONLY 2 who Don’t interact with each other…there he just walked by my office right now..looking straightforward…straightaway…exactly what I do when I walk by his office (don’t look in)…I can’t stop wondering if he feels anything…i wish the day would come where he might come talk to me or feel some sort of remorse but I don’t see that happening….like I said..i picture him out having a ball with all these other women…whether he is or not..i think the worse in this situation…i feel like I was played by him…and he didn’t have enough guts to tell me the truth

  271.  #271gina on December 11, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    so johnny pussed out of telling me he wasn’t interested. I got no respect for that. I feel an empty rage. Like, wow. oh well. Thanks for putting words to my experience, Dock – that felt great to read!!!

  272.  #272Wendy on December 11, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Lisa, In my early 20’s I found a man who said he loved me. I was just breaking up with my first husband. (besides other issues we had sexual problems. He was unable to bring me to orgasm, in the end I was treated like it was my problem) THis man gave me lots and lots of orgasm. He helped bring out the goddess in me. And I let it shine! I spent many nights with him during our 3 year relationship. I did not see anyone else during this time. He wanted to marry me. I told him I did not feel the same way towards him. He said it didn’t matter i would eventualy fall in love with him. And now 25 years later . I agree I would have loved him and I have never found anyone who loved me in that way. Sexually or emotionally.
    Now after hearing yoyr story. I see how I used him for my own pleasure. And how I broke his heart. I feel really bad and upset about my actions. At the same time I feel happy that I had the wonderful experience and I can still feel the wonderful way I felt in his arms.

  273.  #273Melanie on December 11, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    Lisa said: “And the more he says he ‘needs me’, the more repelled I am.” Last night my therapist said to me, “If a man ever tells you he needs you, run away fast.” I don’t know if that was a general statement, or specific to me. But I felt interested in it. I felt good about it. I felt relieved. I felt glad that the context of her saying that was after I told her TN man (who I like very much!) told me “I don’t need you.” My therapist said, “You don’t want him to need you.”

    After he said he didn’t need me, he went on, “Out of my overflow of joy and inner happiness you would be a fun and wonderful person to share that with.”

    I LOVE THAT!!!!!!!

  274.  #274Lisa on December 11, 2009 at 9:57 pm

    Thanks, Melanie — helpful words. Your TN man sounds lovely.

  275.  #275ABC on December 11, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    hey Lisa,

    why don’t you give him a chance to win you over??

    i am at the friends stage with him, but at least i am giving him a chance.

    also, i don’t mean to be rude to your therapist but i know that it is not professional for a therapist to TELL you what to do, they can only GUIDE you instead of telling you what to do. i know this because i was once preparing to be a therapist myself.

    “the more he “needs me”, the more repelled I am” i felt that way before, but i finally turned that one around—just think about the way when i like someone, i automatically lean forward (not just once), when you like someone, you would want to spend time with them and see them, so i finally see them as they REALLY LIKE me instead of the “needy” quality of them. because i know i am not a needy person even though i lean forward when i like someone.

  276.  #276Rori Raye on December 12, 2009 at 11:40 am

    LJ – office romance of any kind – don’t know what the percentages of them working out are…but you can imagine how many women are in your exact situation – and often with their “boss” or supervisor, where they actually lose some influence at work….This is why Circular Dating is so crucial….This is a kind of heartbreak that you can’t walk away from – you’re in the same choir, the same office, the same band, the same gym, the same running club…it goes on like this…things that you “choose” – classes, gyms – you can change. Work is not so easy. So sorry you’re in this kind of situation….I’ll write about it more, we’ll help you…you can work yourself OUT of this, I know you can. Love, Rori

  277.  #277Rori Raye on December 12, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Thank you for your story, Wendy….Love, Rori

  278.  #278Lisa on December 12, 2009 at 12:16 pm


    Yes, wrong time, wrong place. I decided I would use this other relationship to salve my ego. I still loved the “main” guy, but he had walked away, as he does routinely. I was alone, and needed comfort, and he has given it. It is too bad I am strongly in the mindset that I want nothing more from him.


    Thank you for the alternate perspective 🙂


    IMHO, men do not demonstrate “remorse”; that is a woman thing. We tend to wallow, where men just get on with it. They see us the weaker when we suffer and fixate upon them, esp. after they’ve left. They put energy into themselves. We dissipate our energies when we send them out to a lost cause.

    A perfect analogy would be defense spending vs. domestic. All that we throw abroad in terms of men and materiel will benefit the U.S. naught — it is money into a money pit; but if we put those resources into building our own country — WOW!

    Living well is the best revenge … Actually, living well is the best way to live – forget revenge.

  279.  #279Melanie on December 12, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    ABC said: “it is not professional for a therapist to TELL you what to do, they can only GUIDE you instead of telling you what to do.” ABC, it is not actually unprofessional; there are many different and valuable counseling/therapy techniques. Some are more direct, some are less so. My therapist uses a variety of methods, depending on the situation. After seven years, she also knows me so well, that she tailors her methods specifically for my needs and personality. She has made a huge positive difference in my life, all because of her fantastic, professional methods, mixed with great wisdom and compassion. 🙂

  280.  #280ABC on December 13, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    hi Melanie,

    thank you for reading my post and your perspective.

    i believe that the purpose of therapy is to ultimately free you from therapy, so that you can stand on your two feet, trust your judgment and heal yourself as you go on with life.

    i am not against with the many variety methods used in therapy. but i believe that when a therapist tells me specifically what to do,( in Lisa’s case, she said, “run”)
    i would become more and more relied on the therapist’s opinion more than my own.

    i believe that in this world, no one knows you more than yourself. and that therapy is to help you find that light in yourself so that you can make your own judgment rather than rely on someone else’s.

  281.  #281Lisa on December 13, 2009 at 1:50 pm


    Thanks. My counselor has known me 5 years, so I guess feels comfortable providing some direction. All along she has been trying to shift my focus back to me, asking how I could use the situation to forward myself. She has advised to love him when she saw his feeble efforts. But now, she sees that I will not do for myself unless I distance from his destructive game.

    I like Rori’s idea of forgetting closure and just getting on one’s horse. I am going to take and use that powerful idea. I don’t need some grand show of closure, i just need to get on my horse and go!

  282.  #282Melanie on December 13, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Lisa, it is helpful, isn’t it, when you have a counselor who knows you well through walking with you over a period of years? 🙂

    I haven’t read what Rori says about the horse, although I see women on here alluding to it all the time. 🙂 I will have to read up on it. It sounds like maybe it was what I ended up doing when my marriage ended — I reached a point (after several years!) where I realized the only “closure” I was going to get would be my own decision to just move on with life and leave all that behind me, regardless of what he was or wasn’t doing. It was a very conscious moment of decision for me. Is that what is meant by getting on the horse?

  283.  #283Lisa on December 13, 2009 at 7:46 pm


    Yes, that continuity of being known is helpful 🙂

    Your moving on, regardless of his actions, is exactly what getting on the horse is all about. He can hang on, drop off, whatever — your face is pointed forward, you are on your steed. Onward and upward. Stiff upper lip. Oh, and soft on the outside, strong on the inside 🙂

  284.  #284Laura on December 14, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Nikita and Tracy-
    Thanks SOOOO much for girlfriend advise and wisdom!! I have my dinner tonight with ex-boyfriend and I am feeling overwhelmed! and tired because i couldn’t sleep last night. i am hoping that the tired comes off as laid back…lol.
    I wish you guys were here right now! He asked to meet me half-way at a sports bar….still suggest wearing a dress? i could always say i am coming from the office. I still feel like i want to say so much to him… apologize for being too impatient with him and maybe too (gasp) needy. But then that comes off as need y too I suspect. OY!
    I just haven’t seen him in a year and although we dated for 4 years….there was so much left unsaid when we broke-up.
    I have no idea why he wants to get together..he certainly picked a very casual spot. He probably just wants to be friends finally. Or he is feeling me out to see if there is still an interest in him? UGH….how can someone in their 40’s still have the same questions before a date as she did at 15????
    If this is the last time I am to see him….I would like closure. But if this is a beginning of a friendship or more, than I can be cool.
    lean back, lean back, lean back and smile……I hear you guys and will let you know what happens!