Getting Your Love Investment Back From a Man Who’s Bailed on You – Can You?

Untitled design (14)

I love it when we tap into our “boundaries.”  Where we draw a line in the sand and stick to it.  It feels good, it feels powerful, and it’s terrifically attractive to a man.

Only thing is…can your line in the sand be …”wrong”?  No – I say it can’t be wrong – but it can either serve you or not serve you.

And the only reason I ask this – is because this is what we do to ourselves day in and day out – we second-guess ourselves.  We beat ourselves up if we had a moment’s doubt about something we did, thought or said – and then things don’t work out.  We want order and control – when the truth is – chaos is where the fun is.

Here’s a comment from Erika, who’s voice I miss here – not just because she knows her stuff around a lot of things that’s helpful, but because she’s distinctive.  She makes her mind up.  Then she backs herself up.  Then, if things don’t work out, or if she feels bad, she’s willing to change course without making herself either the victim or the perpetrator.  She doesn’t beat herself up, because that’s the one thing Erika’s work is all about – you love yourself unconditionally, and then everything else rights itself.

This…however…is a very controversial comment because of the “line in the sand” Erika draws…and I’m going to weigh in on it here:

I’m ok with or without him. Thinking out loud here. Has anyone else considered whether it’s beliefs like that that might be pushing love away?

Is it really true? If I invest in a man, and he doesn’t live up to the trust I placed in him, am I really okay with that?

No. I’ll speak for myself, but no I’m not okay with that.

It has occurred to me recently that I have no problem at all getting a refund from my credit card company if a merchant sends me a defective product. Why is that? Because inside I KNOW it’s unacceptable for a merchant to defraud me, and I’m going to do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn’t happen. Why are our standards so much lower with men?

I, personally, am revamping my belief system to make it unequivocally clear that if a man makes promises to me, he had damn well better keep them.  Or there’s going to be hell to pay. Just like with a merchant. Erika”

And here’s my two cents:

Erika – Re: Being okay – I think we’ve just got a definition problem here.

This is what “I’m okay means to me:  Of course I’m not okay with “that” – meaning his or anyone’s bad behavior.  I have an opinion about it. I have feelings about it.  I don’t like it. I have righteous anger and a penchant for justice! BUT –

I am okay with ME.

I am okay. I’m okay with my part in things.  With what I did and said and thought. I don’t blame him, and I don’t blame me for the way things go. I take it all as a lesson, all as a message.

I can live just fine, thank you. I can survive just okey-dokey without the man. I will thrive and prosper and have great love.

If he didn’t want what he said he wanted – if he changed his mind and trampled on my heart and broke promises – I certainty don’t WANT that man in my life, as much as I may FEEL that I do in my heart and body…and I may be deeply triggered to rage and the awakening of all my old traumas.

The important thing, for me – and I think (I know you’ll correct me if I’m making this up wrong) – is what I do NOW for ME.

What is the BEST thing for me? What is the most HEALING thing I can do for me? (And, as I do the most healing thing for me – I am going to assume that it is also the most compassionate and healing thing I can do for him, too, if one of my triggering needs is to have global compassion – and I do have that – again, because it feels right and peaceful to ME…ahhh – the self-preservation narcissistic look of universal love….)

Considering that this man is a therapist for me simply because he has showed up in my life in such intensity and power and triggering gusto – what would be the best way to grow through this experience – without having an agenda or trying to create an outcome?

Since I’ve worked with my professionally-paid therapists in all manners – I’ve hit them with batacas, and cried naked with them in swimming pools, and curled up with baby bottles in their laps, and rubbed oil in groups of bodies around them, and fallen asleep and gone numb and screamed and cried and raged and pounced and even – yes – had sex with one – I would think I’d have an answer as to what worked best (at least for me).

And Erika’s answer, and your answer might be different.

If I’m to consider this man to be therapeutic, even though he’s not being paid (he’s a volunteer) – what would I say would work the best?

Well – I love hitting pillows with my fists and screaming. I feel wonderful after that. And I did not feel good after hitting men with batacas and my fists and my slapping hands (with their cooperation) – it felt like bad sex.

It felt like an investment in the man he no longer deserved – he no longer had the right to participate in my process on that deep and intimate level.

And so what I got out of it was hollow. No real satisfaction. Felt like play-acting.

When a man doesn’t follow through and disappoints and hurts, we’re enraged. But- truthfully – we’re impotent to change what happened – and if we approach a man to get our “money” back – we’re not going to get it.  We may get something else, but not our investment of love – at least not the way we thought it looked when we first gave it away (or perhaps we think we had it stolen from us…?).

So – we’re back to my determination that “closure” is meaningless, a waste of your divinity, a waste of your practical time and energy, and a move in the wrong direction.

I am firm in my belief that – though life and circumstance, and experiments we make and do and think and say and feel may shake us off whatever path we’ve chosen – it’s not the PATH that’s important.

The BRIDGE to your Happy Ever After is WIDE.

What’s important is to not get distracted.  To not toss YOURSELF off the Bridge after a man – whatever the reason may be. A man is not a merchant – to me.

There is a HUGE difference in expressing yourself to the edge of where it feels good, and then stop when it starts to feel bad, and trying to get your money back. Would I chase a thief who’s got my purse down the street?  Would I chance that he has a gun or a knife?  Would I start screaming for folks to help me?  I might!  Depends what the purse and its contents are to me.

Or, I might let it go.  And I might kick myself for letting it go.  Or I might feel glad he didn’t hurt me when he took the purse.  No way to know all the possibilities…only what feels right in the moment.

Once, in a seedy street-corner 7 Eleven in the early evening a man grabbed my wallet out of my hand and ran down the street.  Another man, a cute fellow on a motorcycle, was standing near me and saw what happened.  Without thinking – he took off down the street, took on the man and got my wallet back.  This is a scenario I like a lot.  This is the one I like the best.

Instead of running after the man with my heart tucked under his arm – my heart that he doesn’t want…I would choose for you, if I could, that a new man show up who wants your heart, wants to care for it and water it and cherish it, and wants to give you his.

Closure is way overrated.

Love, Rori


  1.  #1Katie on January 29, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Oh Rori – that is such a fantastic analogy between the stolen purse and the guy chasing the thief down the road and…
    “Instead of running after the man with my heart tucked under his arm – my heart that he doesn’t want…I would choose for you, if I could, that a new man show up who wants your heart, wants to care for it and water it and cherish it, and wants to give you his.”

    What an utterly thought provoking post – so much in here!

    A defense reaction of ‘how dare he, now he is gonna pay’ is one we all know so well. I have had this attitude recently but only as part of a whole churning spectrum of feelings in reaction to a deep sense of loss. The pain we have felt spurs us to regain what we feel belongs to us! But often only a worse feeling results. Because what has past has gone and when an outcome does not agree with our dreams then that’s what is hardest to accept. But they were OUR dreams, hopes, wishes and no-one can ever truly take these away.

    Love is only ever offered and it can be rejected, misused, not appreciated, but the great thing about a broken heart is that when it mends it has somehow also become stronger and yet more gentle too.

    Your open warmth and depth of understanding confirms and guides, we all learn from one another here, thank you xxx.

  2.  #2Lucy on January 29, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Rori, I LOVE this. It feels so beautiful and hopeful and helpful and peaceful. Thank you.

  3.  #3Lucy on January 29, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    It’s really interesting that you wrote this, because just last night, lying in bed processing stuff, I had a revelation that also uses the merchant analogy. I have learned so much and received so much emotionally and spiritually from TN man, including a great deal of unconditional love – so I worry about losing him, having him leave my life. And when I use spiritual tools that he taught me, in my mind, HE is connected with the tools; i.e., when I use the tool, I think of him, which leads to “obsessing,” or at the very least giving him too much mental attention when he is not in front of me. And then I worry about having to throw away everything he gave me (emotionally and spiritually) if he leaves my life, because it is so connected to him in my mind.

    Well, while pondering all that in bed last night, suddenly these advertising words came to my mind: “These free gifts are yours to keep no matter what.” You know, you order something you might not keep, but it comes with FREE GIFTS that you get to KEEP even if you don’t keep the main thing you ordered. So, with that analogy, I was able to separate HIM (the main “product”) from the free gifts that he gives me with his love and nurturing. They are two separate things. So, if it ends up that I don’t get to keep him, I can still keep the love he gave me and the things he taught me. And I DO get my “money” back, because my money is my heart. If he no longer wants my heart, I take my heart back, let him go on his way, AND —

    “These free gifts are yours to keep no matter what.” I keep the love that he poured into my heart, and everything I learned from him.

  4.  #4gina on January 29, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    When I obsess about Johnny lately, I guess I’m questioning the closure that I established…I’m wondering whether I did the “best” thing by telling him he can take his business elsewhere. And I’m simultaneously very proud of myself. I guess there’s just no way to know for sure….

  5.  #5GiGi on January 29, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    it is so interesting reading your comment, because it feels like you are describing me and the man that i’m in love with. I, too, worry about losing him someday (sometimes it just seems like it’s too good to be true that i have him in my life, and that may be i don’t deserve him or something). Just like you, i have learned a lot from him, spiritually and emotionally (and, in my case, sexually), so i know that no matter what happens down the road, i will always have deep appreciation for him… i just really wish that i did not worry so much about losing him. After all, if it’s true that our thoughts can materialize, then i’m in danger of creating the very scenario that i most want to avoid.
    Rori, any idea how we can stop these worrying thoughts?

  6.  #6Rachel on January 29, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    Wow, Melanie!

    That really makes sense. I agree that there are wonderful things that are mentally and emotionally tied to Guy A… and it really feels freeing to think of being able to keep those good things and let go of him if it comes to that. Thank you!

    And Rori… I LOVE the purse analogy. I feel like maybe Guy B is that guy who’s bringing my heart back! He feels like a hero. He’s really fulfilling that last part of your post…

    ” that a new man show up who wants your heart, wants to care for it and water it and cherish it, and wants to give you his.”

    YAY!!! I felt really happy and bubbly when I read that.

  7.  #7Callista on January 29, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    I love love love love this!!! I have suffered a recent disappointment and this made so much sense to me and I love the thief analogy… Just what I needed! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Rori, you rock! 🙂

  8.  #8Kate on January 30, 2010 at 6:40 am

    “Considering that this man is a therapist for me simply because he has showed up in my life in such intensity and power and triggering gusto – what would be the best way to grow through this experience – without having an agenda or trying to create an outcome?”

    Wow, Rori, I’m feeling humbled by how right this sounds and I’m feeling unsure that I’ll ever emotionally reach this point. I don’t often feel really connected to a man, but when it DOES happen I so feel such intensity, so it feels so hard to remain authentically blase about whether he runs away with my heart and I feel it’s impossible to be the Siren who watches his boat sail past and say “next”…

    I feel I need lots more practice with Circular Dating but no one is asking me out, Rori, even though I am unzipping my heart and smiling ’til my cheeks hurt…

  9.  #9Emily on January 30, 2010 at 8:03 am

    Rori, I love what you wrote. Last night, on my way to a date I saw my ex. He didn’t see me he was checking his phone. I was about four feet away from him and my heart raced! It felt TERRIBLE. I live in NYC so it was very undexpected to see him. He turned and walked down the block-and I walked behind him for a few seconds-out of my way-and then I thought-What am I doing? And I turned to head my direction, to my date. It was gross and weird and very symbolic, I stopped chasing him, thinking see ya, I have other, lovely men who want to see me. Sorry you were too blind to notice me. Thanks Rori!

  10.  #10Erika Awakening on January 30, 2010 at 8:44 am

    Hi, how is everyone?

    I felt an intuition to drop by this morning, and lol, saw this post with my comment 🙂

    All I can say is I knew in my heart it was right for me to express all of my rage with that particular man. And I did, in a very public way.

    After I allowed myself to have every iota of rage, without censoring, a deep quiet came over me. Suddenly, I wasn’t mad anymore.

    A week later, a new man stepped into my life.

    He and I are now creatively collaborating to bring all my dreams into reality 🙂 He is a wonderful, sexy, caring man.

    He has already seen me enraged, as enraged as I’ve ever been, when I asked another man to leave my apartment and not come back. And he’s still here.

    My heart would not have been open enough for this new man to step in if I had not got my closure with the other man by demanding a refund of my investment.

    There’s a method to my madness. What I’m doing works for me better than anything has ever worked before.



  11.  #11gina on January 30, 2010 at 9:14 am

    I loved this post. So so good. However,Rori, with all due respect, I’ll admit that I felt totally disturbed by the examples of therapy!!! However, I am learning from you that loving life and being as beautiful as possible is the only way to go!! It seems that you start with baby steps, and then after you get your bearings, you can skip tra la la over the bridge. Except I think life is the bridge is life, and the destination is death…except not death…heaven!!!

  12.  #12Rori Raye on January 30, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Wow, Emily – what a GREAT story! You “walked on by…” Love, Rori

  13.  #13Rori Raye on January 30, 2010 at 9:28 am

    Erika, so glad you found this, and I am so totally open to your experience. Somehow, that rage has to have a voice. If we can do it alone, or with a coach, friend or therapist, that’s great, it keeps it in our system without having to deal with the “fallout” of involving the man in our “process” – but getting it out in any way and being able then to walk away sounds quite magnificent. What you did said loud and clear to yourself and the world that you are indeed “good enough” – indeed “worthy” – indeed a goddess, and canceled out the Nasty inner Voice that tries to bring us down by trying to keep us safe. I still think you and your experience are an exception – for most of us, most of the time, anger acted out breeds anger – that it multiplies it rather than releases it. That acting it out – the full story, in pursuit of closure – is so very different from feeling and expressing (even very, very loudly and demonstratively) that anger. I wish you all the luck an the love in the world – please keep us posted on the new man! Love, Rori

  14.  #14Rori Raye on January 30, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Kate – just keep doing what you’re doing. Go online for dating, go to Speed Dating and mixers, go to classes and sports you enjoy, go to matchmaking functions. Go out of your “neighborhood.” Let your “boy” get you out there, so you can completely let go and lean back when you’re there. Love, Rori

  15.  #15Erika Awakening on January 30, 2010 at 9:40 am

    Hey Rori,

    It’s so funny you say that it’s an exception and that “anger acted out breeds anger” because Marketing Genius Guy and I had that same conversation around my anger with the other man.

    To me, anger breeds anger is the “old way” of doing things. I’m using this system I’ve created to release instead of perpetuate anger … and it’s a system I could teach to ANYONE.

    Rori, I’m going to e-introduce you to him, I think it will be a good connection for both of you. 🙂

    – Erika

  16.  #16Rori Raye on January 30, 2010 at 9:44 am

    Gigi, Welcome – and this is so lovely. Your attitude and what you wrote here are lovely. Please – all – don’t believe the idea that what you think will materialize! Even the strictest Law of Attraction folks are very careful about this…otherwise – you’re going to go with resistance instead of release whenever you’re triggered. Try going THROUGH these thoughts, instead. Ask yourself why you’re afraid. Ask what you’re afraid of. Breathe through the terror…then move through that ‘tunnel” and into something light by ACCEPTING your feelings. Once you’ve accepted your fear, embraced it, and moved through into something that feels GOOD – you won’t return to those worries so much. This works for obsession, too…just sink deeper into the feeling, into what it is you’re afraid of – and imagine moving through it. (The tunnel is in Reconnect Your Relationship – so if you have it, replay that part so the Tool is always available for you…) Love, Rori

  17.  #17Tracy on January 30, 2010 at 10:07 am

    I love this post!
    I recently let a guy go and decided to focus on loving myself and though i am struggling with accepting within me that there is so much more out there and that i am okay with it not working out….the truth is…everything is working out well and i am meeting men who are showing interest and want to step up….
    I have always felt deep down that though i may feel angry and resentful when things don’t go my way…..that it was I to take another lead or look for another path….I am learning that happiness comes from within out…i am a vessel through which loves flows out so i carry the source whenever i go….

  18.  #18Kate on January 30, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Hi Rori, I feel so happy that you took your own pain and frustrations & “figured it out” and then designed these Steps to help the rest of us get what we deserve…

    Just when I was feeling despair over not getting it “Right”, a friend of a co-worker just called me for coffee next Saturday! Thank you!!

  19.  #19Lucy on January 30, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Anyone — How do I send Rori a private email? It’s really important!!!

  20.  #20Lucy on January 30, 2010 at 11:05 am

    Erika, I feel interested in what you are saying about expressing anger and demanding your investment back. How do we know when a guy “owes” us something? I mean, if the relationship is based in the moment, both people doing what feels right to them in the moment, and then suppose the guy wants to be with another girl or something . . . who are we to be angry about that? He is just living in the moment. When I was concerned about leading a guy on, another guy said to me, “Nothing promised, nothing lost.” In other words, if you don’t promise anything, you’re not really leading them on, and therefore don’t owe them anything if things don’t go the way they hoped, wanted, or expected.

    So, if a guy didn’t promise me (or you) anything, does it even make sense to get angry? I know, it doesn’t have to make sense, we feel what we feel and need to let ourselves feel it. BUT, think about an extreme situation, for example, a girl imagines that a guy is in love with her even though he has done nothing to encourage that, and then she gets really mad at him when he starts dating someone else.

    Just thinking out loud here. 🙂

  21.  #21Erika Awakening on January 30, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Hi Melanie,

    Thanks for the question. I don’t have time right now to respond fully because Marketing Genius Guy and I are working on my new websites and products.

    But … I invite everyone to look around at the world and ask yourself, what kind of world would this be if people didn’t keep their agreements?

    Would there be any homes to live in? Would there be food at the grocery stores? Would there be dinner parties or social events? No, because people would not be able to rely on each other.

    How is it that our romantic ideals have become so skewed that the basic principle of keeping agreements can be belittled and discarded?

    This is the process I went through on the way to realizing that, yes, that man had made big promises to me, and yes, he broke those promises.

    And it was NOT okay.

    Doesn’t mean I’m going to try to control him. But you had better believe he was going to hear about it.

    I expressed myself fully for MY sake, knowing that by doing so I would be setting a new standard for myself for my goddess life.

    And it worked. With the new guy, I immediately found myself having stronger boundaries and more self esteem and a much higher expectation of how I would be treated. Things are going great 🙂 Because I went through my internal process of deciding what is and is not okay with me in relationships.

    Whatever I resolve on the inside will be reflected back to me from the outside world. I have all the power.

    I’m not talking about having expectations that I “made up” in my own mind. I’m talking about radical honesty, alignment of expectations, and keeping agreements.

    We do not ask too much of men and the world. We tend to ask far too little.


  22.  #22Lucy on January 30, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    Erika, your comments are interesting. In your opinion, is it only an agreement if the words “agreement” or “promise” are used, or would you say that “let’s plan on it” would constitute an agreement? I seem to have trouble knowing whether I can take statements like that (“let’s plan on it”)seriously from a guy and expect him to follow through (and get angry if he doesn’t), or whether I should assume that he’s just blurting things out in the moment and I shouldn’t expect him to follow through. In spite of myself, I get my hopes up, but then I keep telling myself maybe he just said it and didn’t really mean it, or will change his mind (and has every right to do so). I would like to believe I can count on those words, but I wonder if I would be naive to do so?

  23.  #23Jo on January 30, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    Dear Rori,

    This post just sums up everything so well….but how does one find strength to not give in?
    Circular dating is THE BEST advice I have ever received. And I’d love to say BIG THANK YOU Rori.

    I met a guy, whom I’ve been seeing for 2 months now. He’s amazing, loving, caring, always initiates all communication, invites me for dates well in advance (a week), introduced me to a couple friends, and took me away on a romantic trip last weekend. He’s definitely my dream man. BUT…. he has just renewed his membership on the site. So I am slightly confused – he’s still dating others. We spend nearly every weekend together. And he texts me every single day, so it’s very difficult not to allow him run away with my heart. I am still doing online dating, but i don’t meet anyone who’s as attractive as he is.

    I’m holding on OK, but there are moments when I find it very difficult knowing that he’s still out there… would appreciate your advice. And Big thank you for being there.

  24.  #24gina on January 30, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    The question then becomes: what do we do the next time we see this man on the street? Run? I guess it depends if he feels threatening.

  25.  #25Lisa on January 30, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Erika A.,

    I hear what you’re saying, and it would be nice if everyone honored their agreements, but it’s not the way of the world. In business, yes, but all is fair in love and war.

    I’m with Rori far as the idea that until there is a ring, or my name on the lease, I have no claim (and vice versa). Words are lovely, like leaves in the breeze, but if they are unanchored to action, they are just words.

    You say,

    “that man had made big promises to me, and yes, he broke those promises.

    And it was NOT okay.

    Doesn’t mean I’m going to try to control him. But you had better believe he was going to hear about it.”

    Well, o.k., so he hears about it. Then what? Ruiz has already written The Four Agreements, and maybe that guy didn’t get the message. So you use a foghorn. Then what?

    For me, that would bring my feelings down a rung. Sometimes, it is appropriate to let one’s feelings out, but not always. If he made promises, and I waited a few years (ahem!), that’s my bad for not recognizing words were not in alignment with actions. But, if the guy promised something and then changed his mind in a timely manner and expressed it to you, well, that’s his prerogative. That is being upright and honest.

    I like Rori’s way: “This doesn’t feel good; This is what I’m headed towards.” No closure — he may be a friend one day (if I am also of that temperament.) I don’t need to yell; if he has jilted me, he knows I’m hurt and disappointed.

    My job is taking care of me. Using my boy in service of my girl. That is nurturing the feminine that all of us womens lib era women need, IMHO.

  26.  #26Erika Awakening on January 30, 2010 at 3:21 pm


    Your permission to be a bit provocative?

    “that’s not the way of the world”

    “all’s fair in love and war”

    In my system, those are beliefs, and, if I allow myself to continue believing them, they will be self-fulfilling prophecies.

    I don’t want those beliefs, so I have chosen to erase them from my belief system.

    “I choose to trust men completely, and I choose for them to live up to that trust.”

    Ah, now that’s a belief that feels good 🙂

    – Erika

  27.  #27Turtle Girl on January 30, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    This is an awesome post and I think it will take me several reads to really let it sink in, and offer up it’s wisdom. I was thinking that regardless I might not care if my investment gets paid back, because I got on my horse and rode away and the further away I get, the less I care about what Mr. Man is doing, investment or no. My girlfriend turned me on to this song called “Ballad of the Runaway Horse”. It is written by Leonard Cohen but sung by Jennifer Warnes. It is not really about horses. I love it. I just love the words:

    Say a prayer for the cowgirl her horse ran away
    She’ll walk ’til she finds him her darlin’ her stray
    But the river’s in flood and the roads are awash
    And the bridges break up in the panic of loss

    And there’s nothin’ to follow nowhere to go
    He’s gone like the summer gone like the snow
    And the crickets are breaking her heart with their song
    As the day caves in and the night is all wrong

    Did she dream it was he who went galloping past
    And bent down the fern broke open the grass
    And printed the mud with the well-hammered shoe

    That she nailed to his speed in the dreams of her youth

    And although he goes grazin’ a minute away
    She tracks him all night she tracks him all day
    And she’s blind to his presence except to compare
    Her injury here with his punishment there

    Then at home on a branch on a high stream
    A songbird sings out so suddenly
    And the sun is warm and the soft winds ride
    On a willow tree by the riverside

    An the world is sweet and world is wide
    And he’s there where the light and the darkness divide
    And the steam’s comin’ off him he’s huge and he’s shy
    And he steps on the moon when he paws at the sky

    And he comes to her hand but he’s nor really tame
    He longs to be lost she longs for the same
    And he’ll bolt and he’ll plunge thru the first open pass
    To roll and to feed in the sweet mountain grass

    Or he’ll make a break for the high plateau
    Where there’s nothing above and noting below
    It’s time for their burden the whip and the spur
    Will she ride with him or will he ride with her

    So she binds herself to her galloping steed
    And he binds himself to the woman in need
    And there is no space just left and right
    And there is no time but there is day and night

    Then she learns on his neck and whispers low
    Whither thou goest I will go
    And they turn as one the head for the plain
    No need for the whip oh no need for the rein

    Now the clasp of this union who fastens it tight
    Who snaps it asunder the very next night
    Some say it’s him some say it’s her
    Some say love’s
    like smoke beyond all repair

    So my darlin’ my darlin’ just let go by
    That old silhouette on the great western sky
    And I’ll pick out a tune and they’ll move right along
    And they’re gone like smoke and they’re gone like this song

    Say a prayer for the cowgirl

    For all you sirens listening pleasure.–178005369

    Erika-I think you are so right on, People in general have gone far away from honor. I think it is time we brought it back into vogue and refuse to accept anything less. All is not fair in love and war. While one can not force another to honor what comes out of their mouths, it seems that if you do not want to have to later on, you should be darn sure what falls out, lest you be held accountable. Responsibility and accountability are old fashioned values that never go out of style.
    Turtle Girl

  28.  #28Lisa on January 30, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    Erika A.,

    Thoughtful provocateurs welcome 🙂

    Mom always said cliches arise for a reason. I’ve not seen or read “The Secret”, but I’m told it has to do with manifesting one’s intentions. And while I really like Rori’s New Year’s post where she talks about making an intention list, I think that applies more to us manifesting ourselves through our own actions and behaviors.

    Again, not to go round and round — I hear what you say: You reject the cliches, and will create your own belief system. I like that, and wish to do that myself. But … and I’ve caught flak from others before on this one: Only a couple of men will go the distance in our lives (8, if we’re Liz Taylor). That is just a fact. So my wailing over a non-manifested relationship — whether he turned out to be a screw-up or not — will not benefit me.

    Women do have great untapped power, but the primal scream group is a great turn-off to me. You see, I think men know this about us (but many of us have to learn it about ourselves.) I’ve heard it said by men in any number of ways, the ugly thought that “women have snakes in their heads”, trans.: Women appear crazy to them.

    So, if I am to have a good relationship with a man, I will be my most authentic, and watch to see what I am receiving. If he can’t make the cut for any number of reasons, like promising things he can’t follow up on, well, then he doesn’t make the cut. It’s like in a stage audition: One wouldn’t yell at the failure; just send him on his way.

    Not saying righteous anger isn’t righteous, just… it can be voiced powerfully, quietly. That’s just my style. I think, it doesn’t actually matter that he knows that I’m angry that he screwed up.

    I’ll go with Rhett Butler here: “Frankly my dear, I don’t given a damn.” I think that’s how most men feel at the point they’ve ended it. And to wail against unlistening ears would be the worst abuse to my soul.

  29.  #29Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 7:53 am

    Turtle girl,

    Good Cohen lyrics (though I think he’s a bit melodramatic — hey, it’s rock n’ roll):

    “And she’s blind to his presence except to compare
    Her injury here with his punishment there

    “It’s time for their burden the whip and the spur
    Will she ride with him or will he ride with her”

    It’s talking about an impossible love, one hurtful to both sides, as their needs are not being met. It is possibly sado-masochistic, and it certainly tabulates the abuses.

    Kate says,

    “it feels so hard to remain authentically blase about whether he runs away with my heart”

    And I think it is at this point we can enlist E.A.’s idea about shifting perceptions. HE does not capture our heart like a thief in the night (unless psychotic, despite what the songs say.) We GIVE our hearts to our beloved. We sometimes make poor choices. As Rori says, people sometime promise things out of awkwardness or not wanting to hurt feelings.

    So we need to be AUTHENTIC both within and without. Did we just force that promise? Is he not following through on it several weeks or months alter. Well, that’s a sign. Judge men’s intents by what they do, not say.

    Nobody owes us anything, really. I have this visual of the old cartoons where the guy puts a string around the coin b/f he drops it in the vending machine. He gets the goody, and pulls his coin back out. I don’t mean that we sit like skeered rabbits waiting to bolt. No — by no means.

    But hey, if it’s not working out, yeah I invested some time, but he owes me nothing. I slowly pull my heart back. We women are stuck in the “time investment/resentment” trap. From speaking with men, they do not see a failed relationship as lost time. They do not ruminate. They press on.

    I do not think most drive on as zombies. True they often have the conquest idea, but generally they take the good. “So-and-so taught me this” kind of attitude. Totally pragmatic, because being a man, rejection is more familiar than it is to us women.

  30.  #30Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 8:05 am


    BTB — just caught your title – another goodie! “Getting Your Love Investment Back From a Man Who’s Bailed on You – Can You?”

    Nope, if he’s jumped ship, he’s done gone. Unless you pay for a P.I. to track him down and give him a piece of your angst. Nonetheless, he’s still done gone, ’cause we don’t have debtor’s prison anymore where he has to do penance for not carrying you off on his white steed like you thought he might.

    Even if he put a promise on your finger — ever heard of runaway bride? men get the same thing.

    Maybe he didn’t even have a white steed. Maybe it was kind of dun, and more like a burro. Maybe it’s all for the best. I say, “Trust — the universe provides.”

  31.  #31Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 8:39 am

    I just read this in an interview with Leslie Kenton — so inspiring:

    We all carry a lot of false beliefs about ourselves. You don’t have to be raped and have your brain fried to have traumas. If you dare to bring light into your darkness, your own unconsciousness, those things lift off, in the same way that if the body is toxic physically and you do a cleansing diet, the stuff just lifts off. My father never had that opportunity. If you can only look at the baggage you carry and not identify with it, recognise that the essence of who you are is far deeper and richer!’

    Read more:

  32.  #32Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 9:12 am

    Am I the only one here?! I’m battling an intestinal flu, so the computer’s my companion right now.

    Read the comment section here for some great insights on CP’s (commitment phobes):

  33.  #33Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 9:14 am

    “Do not tell people they need to say they are sorry.” It is kind of sort of silly, almost like kindergarten, to tell someone they need to say they are sorry to you. I see my grandmother’s point, who was married for 72 years and is now a widow for nine years.
    Being “petty” with people who have the commitment problems will only justify their insecurities.”

  34.  #34Turtle Girl on January 31, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Hey Lisa-

    Nah you aren’t the only on here. sorry to hear you aren’t feeling well. Flu sucks.

    I do know what you mean about when a guy is gone, he is just gone. There is some kind of switch that flips and that’s it. I know I have left relationships with men who really really did not want me to go. He tried and tried to get me back. One guy hung on for years. I mean ten to be exact. It was sick. He just could not accept that I did not love him any more. We broke up because he crossed a big ole boundary line with me and it was just not in any way acceptable for me to take him back. Just flipped some sort of “NO” switch.

    I think that’s what happened with my ex toxic man-even though he was the one that is toxic-something I did was a boundary line no no for him. It is different for everyone. It’s not that I object to people leaving relationships, happens all the time and it hurts to be sure; what I don’t like is— saying something with words that mean “forever” and THEN over some little slight thing-dump and run. I think people should really be sure before they profess commitment, if they do not plan on committing. After all, a commitment is just that-and if the bond is easily broken, what’s the point in saying those words-they become meaningless.

    I do know though what you say is true-the universe provides and the milk is slipped, and it ain’t a gonna go back in the glass. If you try and put it back, it’s dirty and doesn’t taste very good.

  35.  #35Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 10:26 am

    Turtle says,

    “After all, a commitment is just that-and if the bond is easily broken, what’s the point in saying those words-they become meaningless”

    Sadly, yeah. But what can you do? Like E.A., yell out in accusation, “You have wronged me, cruel friend!” O.k., next? “Y’wanna go out for a milkshake?”

    That’s why Rori says, even with an engagement keep up the CD’s til the date’s set (if that’s what you want). Nothing’s written in stone, not even a marriage cert.

    Even if the 10 Commandments were, they’re broken all the time 🙁

  36.  #36marya on January 31, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Thanks Rori.It was so beautifuk to read .It gives me so much hope.
    Living with a man in 7 years together in the same house,him calling me his girlfreind an recently i found he has a long distance mail frieng)girl=,he says just for fun and send her e-mail each night.The other ex girlfriend comes to swimingpool he is there two times a week just accidently each time and he is just so polite and freindly to send her mail and says thanks for pictures from Kreta,… and emailing another friend)girl= and have fun time about mms of her and her specialities,…
    I am going to come out,just began to circle date and thinking about my love in his bank but not getting anything for that just a girlfriend,good to have but not the only one,so not ned to have

  37.  #37Erika Awakening on January 31, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    “After all, a commitment is just that-and if the bond is easily broken, what’s the point in saying those words-they become meaningless”

    Sadly, yeah. But what can you do? Like E.A., yell out in accusation, “You have wronged me, cruel friend!”


    I don’t feel very heard when I read this, and perhaps it’s because I didn’t express myself clearly enough.

    What can we do? A lot, but it doesn’t involve being a victim. Again, I didn’t express my anger to blame HIM. I expressed my anger to set a new standard within myself.

    We can play the game of being powerless and at the mercy of the world around us, or we can recognize that all the power is within us to say what we want and stand firm until we receive it.

    Expressing anger in an honest and uninhibited (yet non-violent) way has become one of my most powerful tools for transformation, and I feel annoyed when my approach — which is an entire system that I’ve been developing for four years — is (as I see it) caricatured into something it’s not.

    It feels easier sometimes to throw up our hands and say “alas, the world is cruel, what can I really do about it? I’ll have to resign myself to being chosen by a man instead of choosing what I want for myself.”

    Bullshit. It is our birthright to have what we really want, not to settle for thinking “this is all that the world is willing to offer me.”

    The change starts inside. It starts with changing our belief system. It starts with saying, “I no longer want the beliefs that have led me to feel resigned and hopeless. I’m ready to let those beliefs go.”

  38.  #38Symantha on January 31, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Hi ladies,

    I got this dating dilemma… is about texting and never have had this problem before. one of my circular dates is kind of regular and I’ve started to like him but been pretty good at keeping the TMR boundaries so have manage. The problem is he would invite me out for a date by text or email only! When we finally meet the time we spend is fabulous, he treats me like a princess and really makes effort in planning the date but he never calls, he keeps the contact just by text or email and I feel annoyed as for me ids too much thinking about what to reply, when to, etc.. is really time consuming and the texting is everytime shorter to ask me if we can have food sometime wtf.

    He knows about my ‘no email’ preference but he keeps doing, about textng haven’t mentioned yet but would like to do it, any ideas?


  39.  #39dorothea on January 31, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    i had the same problem, symantha. i just quit answering. they all eventually called me.

    the other thing i do now is just being like “call me and invite me!”

    then when he calls be happy and excited and let it go that he texted/emailed first.

    i HATE guys that only ask out by text forms.

  40.  #40Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    Erika A. says,

    “I expressed my anger to set a new standard within myself”

    But, you already have set high standards for yourself. You cannot change another, other than (possibly) by “being the change you wish to see in the world.” Chastising does no good; he knows he’s done wrong. If he’s a psychopath, he’s relishing in it, and your anger only adds to his pleasure.

    Of course, I do not know the work you’ve been doing for the past four years, so it is unfair to comment on that. I will only voice my own theory: There is a weight to things like happiness and misery. When we sling our our anger, we are adding to the world’s burden, tipping the scales a bit more to misery (even though you have been wronged!) You see, the wrong has already occurred, so why compound it?

    An older male friend once (wisely, I think) advised me in a separation scenario to not bother letting him know how I felt. “Take the high road. Wish him well”, and get on your horse and ride.

    For me, I have yet to disagree with a Rori position.

  41.  #41Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    E.A. —

    I totally agree with this:

    “The change starts inside. It starts with changing our belief system. It starts with saying, “I no longer want the beliefs that have led me to feel resigned and hopeless. I’m ready to let those beliefs go.””

    Absolutely. But again, I think pragmatism is helpful as is having a Plan B. I may be new and improved, but maybe he didn’t get the message (for all my good intentionality.)

    But … if I change, then I change my energy sphere, and I attract different people. That I believe. But I also know there are practices schemers and psychopaths, and God forbid I come across them, I need to have an escape route that protects and honors me, IMHO.

  42.  #42Erika Awakening on January 31, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    hi Lisa,

    I appreciate you delving into this with me.

    I hear you using phrasing such as “chastising” and “sling our anger” that sound to me like you believe anger is a punishment. That’s not how I see it, and that’s not how I use it.

    To me, anger is a signal that things are out of alignment. By communicating anger non-violently, I can help myself and the other person gain clarity into the unmet needs.

    I also hear a lot of judgments about people and men in your words, phrases such as “schemers and psychopaths” and “anger adds to his pleasure.”

    I don’t believe those things about men anymore. I have faith in communication. In my belief system, deep down, nobody wants to hurt someone else.

    Only when we communicate our hurt and anger openly and in a non-blaming way will people understand where our boundaries are and how their actions are not meeting other people’s needs.

    It is fairly universal that if a person understands, at an emotional level, how their actions are hurting others, they will not be able to continue that course of action.

    I have tremendous faith in communication, and this is not some intellectual belief on my part.

    Through communicating anger and my needs very openly over the past few weeks, I have been able to find a very sexy, exciting, stable, and loving space with the man I’m currently seeing.

    None of what I’m doing now was possible for me a few years ago. It works now because I’ve revamped my entire belief system to have way more faith in myself and other people.

    In my world, there are no schemers or psychopaths, there are only people who may be inadvertently hurting others who need to become more conscious about the impact they are having. My open communication helps them become more conscious.

    – Erika

  43.  #43Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    E.A. says,

    “I also hear a lot of judgments about people and men in your words, phrases such as “schemers and psychopaths” and “anger adds to his pleasure.”

    “I don’t believe those things about men anymore”

    Like Hemingway wrote, “It is pretty to think so.”

    I love most men. However, there are people who wish to hurt you, whether they exist in your belief system or not. Never limit your ability to conceptualize (“There are more things in heaven and earth…”)

    You may reject them, but they are there. They either take pleasure in hurting you, or are inured to your suffering. That said, I’m not staying inside.

    You may not believe those things about men, but I have the scars to prove they exist, and I happen to be an excellent and compassionate communicator. If he had any questions about my desire to be abused, I did vocalize them.

    Communication is the key to good relationship, and I am very glad you have found that with a receptive man. I am shifting my vibe, so I now hope for new and better things.

    Sometimes, I do believe anger is called for. However, that time is not at the point he wishes out of relationship. What does my anger accomplish?
    Let’s him know he’s a rat bastard if he’s shirking promises?

    He probably already knows.

  44.  #44Daria on January 31, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    Labeling men psychopaths feels awful and SELF limiting to me.

    Rori does not advocate this.

    There are CRAZY people who kill people and eat people afterwards secretly , then there were/are people who killed people and ate people publicly,


    I don’t feel protective of myself by labeling men. I’ve noticed that I attract what I put my attention on.

    Also, I’ve noticed that Babystepping myself to more belief in JOY and good stuff works well.

    I’ve noticed in the past taking small steps felt good and that it felt so TERRIFYING to take a BIG step that it DID NOT FEEL GOOD TO DO SO!

    I struggle (cross out) i TWEAK my beliefs about money, and poverty and what is possible as I live in this world and go for my happiness.

    And yes I feel sad a little bit everytime I hear women on here say, oh my ex was (narcissistc/sociopathic/commitement phobic/a fucker/ etc etc)

    because that Feels Bad to me. I feel disappointed that that is said rather than… I FEEL SO ANGRY AT THAT MAN I FEEL LIKE JUDGING HIM AND HATING HIM.



    and I feel the same way with my mom saying things like

    “your father will never change. He’s rude, he takes his anger out on other people, (words lost in translation)”


    i feel like GRR… I feel angry because I believe our beliefs PERPETUATE this reality we have experienced.

    I would feel better to hear. UGH I FEEL SO ANGRY AT HIM.

    and yesterday I told my mom I felt angry hearing her say that.

    Ah hhh what a relief to have said something. even though I felt sad still at that time.

    I feel disappointed hearing the women say stuff about the psychopathic narcissistic because



    it doesnt matter sweetie!!!! all that matters is YOU. YOU and how you treated YOU!!!!!!

    Analyzing his behavior is about HIM. and you are still using energy on HIM rather than YOU!!!


    I could go back and give labels to my exes for fun I suppose

    lets see

    x – sociopathic

    y – narcissitic

    z – sex addicted

    w – pathological liar

    t – sadistic, manipulative, coward

    u – skitzophrenic — this one for real, poor man spent years walking on the street talking to HIMSELF starting after we broke up… I recently heard he’s doing better


    s – feminine

    and so on

    well. that felt actually kind of fun and interesting

    BUT I don’t want to spend time labeling these men much more.

    I love some of them still, and i feel angry at some of them still, and i feel attracted to some of them still, and i feel hate for very few… and i love all my feelings! really!

    lets label

    Past Daria – codependent, controlling, defensive, masculine, ok fine i dont have too many labels for Daria haha…

    but it doesnt matter! because she’s evolving, always a beautiful Goddess! and men evolve too they are Gods too!

    I love that.

  45.  #45Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 8:20 pm


    Daria says:

    “Labeling men psychopaths feels awful and SELF limiting to me”

    I never said men are psychopaths. There may be more women psychopaths, for all I know.

    Psychopaths are psychopaths. That is tautological and true, and cannot be debated.

    They are not my focus, so why so up in arms about facts that don’t fit your belief systems?

  46.  #46Daria on January 31, 2010 at 9:14 pm

    hey im not up in arms!

    i just feel triggered and cringing when i read men being labeled as psychopaths

  47.  #47Daria on January 31, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    i feel defensive reading those things and also judgemental.

    i don;t believe in tautological facts that psychopaths are psychopaths

    i feel unsure whether i believe in FACTS. Facts are fiction

    i feel super hyper right now having eaten a BUNCH of chocolate

  48.  #48Daria on January 31, 2010 at 9:18 pm

    I DEBATE that psychopaths are psychopaths!


  49.  #49Daria on January 31, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    i feel TRIGGEREDD!!!!!

  50.  #50Erika Awakening on January 31, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    The mind creates everything.

    If you believe in psychopaths, your mind will create them.

    I choose not to believe in them.

    I choose to trust men.

    A man is sitting in my apartment right now perfecting everything for my first real launch. He is sexy, strong, and caring. He is taking care of everything that had been a struggle for me, so I can do what I’m good at, which is creating content.

    What do I believe in?

    What I believe in is what I will create.

    When I communicate honestly with one man about what I want and need, about how his actions affect me … I am communicating with all men.

    Because my Self is connected to all men.

    Believe in psychopaths if you choose to do so … but don’t do it without understanding that you are giving an instruction to the Universe.

    And it has no choice but to deliver what you have asked for.

    Ask, and you shall receive 🙂

    A kiss to you Daria.

    Good night, all.

  51.  #51Rori Raye on January 31, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    Wow – Erika and Lisa – this is a sensational discussion – I love following it…tempted as I am to weigh in, the dialogue keeps shifting, so I won’t even try to keep up. I’ll just jump off into a post and hope it relates after you keep working this out…Love, Rori

  52.  #52Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 10:28 pm

    Hi Rori!

    E.A. says,

    “If you believe in psychopaths, your mind will create them”

    I hope you never end up on a dark street across from Hannibal Lechter 🙁 (Yup, fiction, but we could open up a psychology text.)

    I don’t “ask” for psychopaths, E.A., but in my naivete of believing well of everyone, the universe delivered one for me, thereby negating your hypothesis. Sorry, but it was true, for me.

    Yes, we’re all in this matrix together, and one could say we all have the potentiality for “evil” (df. how you wish) because we are seven degrees of separation away from a psychopath.


    No more chocolate? 🙂

  53.  #53Lisa on January 31, 2010 at 10:30 pm

    Meeting Your Half Orange encourages us to get out and raise our vibe, as Rori does. Good advice. But one mustn’t be naive.

  54.  #54Daria on January 31, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    I feel icky hearing one mustn’t be naive Lisa.

    Why musnt’ one be naive.

    And logically, one can’t not be naive. If they are naive, then they cannot prevent being naive.

    We keep being vulnerable and yet its the safest ! and most beautiful thing we practice!

    safest being vulnerable

    a lovely paradox

  55.  #55Linda on February 1, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Lisa, Ericka A, Turtle Girl…

    I have enjoyed the dialog here and your comments. I took some notes as I read. I have had some things and feelings bouncing around inside my head and heart for a few days and some of your words and statments helped me settle my pinball syndrome. Yep my thoughts and feelings bounce off each other and the affect is like the metal ball bounding around inside a pinball machine.

    I have steadily been seeing S since before christmas. The mere fact that he and I still seeing each other a solid month is monumentally amazing. There are many things that have been going well and enfolding. Things that I am enjoying sharing with him….and then there are others that are not and I feel discouraged. Unfortunately the things that are not happening are the things that I feel I need most.

    I am learning so much about him, watching him process life. Frankly I could lable it “the good, the bad, and the ugly”…. yet on the good side of all that he asks me what my take is on things. I see that he is logical and if it makes sense to him then you capture his heart. I am seeing a shift in him from thinking single to couple.His speach reflects it. He has said lots of things with words that mean or imply forever, however I am not banking on it. I want to but I dont think it would be wise. THings were headed more forcefully ahead until he lost his job a week ago. It seems two steps forward one step back….

    In the end, as Rori put in this post… I want this man to want my heart, to care, water, nuture and cherish it. I want a man who wants to give me his. So far S has not done that. That is what I need.


  56.  #56Linda on February 1, 2010 at 9:18 am

    I probably should ad that if the investment I have made into this man… if he doesnt live up to the trust I placed in him… well… I dont wanna even go there He has made some promises.

    He got rid of his dog this week end. He was just tired of the hair and he made the statement ” he is just not worth the effort I have to put into him”. I felt a lump in my throat and wondered, well that seems like a bump and dump to me… I dont feel good about that. Is that what he would do about me?



  57.  #57Lisa on February 1, 2010 at 9:37 am

    I came to this site in December at my lowest point; I had made the decision to leave a verbally abusive relationship with a borderline narcissist. Those aren’t descriptions I made up — they are helpful, and came from the psychiatric community from which I sought help.

    Here, I found Janjune and others who had suffered the same thing. That comaraderie and sense of being known and understood was immeasurably helpful.

    If I had met E.A. and daria telling me I was gloomy gus, I would’ve been hanging in the breeze. Fuck that. As it is, I am now able to work through my issues, and gracefully leave.

    So to E.A. and Daria, your imaginary thinking makes me mad. It feels like blaming the victim. Do you realize that is very ugly behavior, and not at all p.c.? In fact, it is much worse than your deciding not to accept personality disorders.

    I didn’t invite and abuser, thank you very much. I’m a pretty positive and upbeat person. That said, I can see my weaknesses. That said, I can see why I would stay with a narcissist.

    As far as there not being room in your mind system for men with personality disorder, well, good luck to you. From my side, you’re ll engaged in magical thinking. Hah — maybe you’re all shamanesses and only draw the white moths to your flame. Good luck with that. Really.

    But I’m hopping off the magical mystery tour.

  58.  #58Turtle Girl on February 1, 2010 at 11:14 am


    OK-Wow-this is some really good stuff in this discussion. Lisa-I totally agree with you. 100%.

    I have a family member who is in a nursing home for the mentally ill. Has schizophrenia. Has had this debilitating disease for over 50 years. did “my mind” create him? OMG, give me a break.
    No amount of wishing and hoping and believing and crying and thinking and praying is going to change WHAT IS.

    He is ill. Period. His brain is not wired like other people. Sad, tragic and TRUE.

    Just because I may or may not chose to believe that he is not a nut-case, does not make it so. He is what he is and if I discount that and delude myself into believing otherwise, then well, uh, one day he just might pick up an ax and bye bye me. He has threatened to kill me many years back and he can be, when he is not lucid, very freaking scary. My belief amount him notwithstanding. My dogs always growl and snarl and get the hair up when he is around. They pick up the vibe that there is something really wrong with this guy. Duh.
    Just like Rori talks about the “red flags”. We know what we know and need to pay attention to it. Out gut tells us so.

    As far as choosing to believe that all men are good.
    Oh, yeah, well great, tell that to the victims of rape or physical abuse or murder or whatever else lovely and happy shiny one can think of.

    Bullshit. All men are not good. That is simply reality. My god, we only have to turn on the television to the news and see that all people are not good-male or female. My mind may indeed create MY reality-I am good (never murdered, raped or abused anyone) but I don’t have the other’s mind and they are busy creating their own reality of whatever good or evil thing that’s in it or not.

    I too broke up with toxic man and YES he was/is a narcissist. So he creates his own reality of behavior as well. Does me attaching a label to it make it any less so? No. He is what he is. His behavior is classic textbook narcissism. However much I wish it were not so. I do not wish to stay in a dreamworld fantasy of “happy shiny”. All I can do is control me and step away from the mistreatment, but he does not change. His next women will be treated exactly the same way because that is who he is-until he either comes to some sort of “bottom” and wishes to change on his own, or some other thing happens that triggers some kind of change.

    I love the story about the frog who hops on the back of the scorpion to get a ride across the lake. The scorpion bites him and the frog gets upset. Well, what did you expect, I am a scorpion he says. it’s what we do. Indeed.
    Should I label the scorpion something like firefly and he will change his ways? Does labeling or not labeling make it any different?

    The type of thinking like EA and Daria does not make me mad, it just triggers the “whatever” gene in me. You can believe whatever you want, it’s a free country. I think it is naive, dangerous, silly, and mostly due to being young. Youth is always so optimistic. It could also stem from the need to take the moral high ground and feel above those of us who chose to live in reality. A sort of “I am so superior because I chose to never be negative, or think like that” kind of attitude. Well, I am still with ya Lisa. Fuck that. What crap.

    That kind of thinking just invites someone to step all over my boundaries and keep me a victim. And of course that is what Rori is saying to not do.
    We get all whiny and victim-y and take any sort of awful behavior from men because we are needy and don’t have boundaries. We become too “understanding”. This has nothing to do with trusting men or not trusting men. I think good men are trustworthy and sick toxic men are not.

    Hell no Mr. Toxic Man, you are a selfish self centered narcissist and I am not going to put up with that kind of shit any more. Period. Get on horse and ride away.

  59.  #59Turtle Girl on February 1, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Oh and BTW

    I also know of a beautiful sweet young fifteen year old girl who naively believed all this shit about everyone being good. She trusted men. One day the Internet predator man who was a young girl pedophile picked her up outside the 7-11 and drove away. She was raped and kidnapped for few days until he was done with her, he dumped her at the bus stop and he went back to the 5 and 6 year olds he liked better. The police never found him. He left the State and went about his ways. But lets don’t label him, no that’s not very nice to do that…..She has spent the last ten years dealing with the fallout of that man she trusted. Tell me she “created her own reality”. What crap.

    So do not-do not tell me that this had anything to do with her belief. That is so far from reality it makes me sick to my stomach.

  60.  #60Lucy on February 1, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    I feel caring for Erika, Lisa, TG, and Daria.

    I feel glad TG jumped in to give Lisa support because I have been feeling sad that Lisa might feel unsupported and leave the forum.

    I feel interested and grateful for ALL the different thoughts and feelings expressed here. I feel grateful that we are all learning and tweaking our beliefs and behaviors every day.

    I feel teary. I feel love for each one of you.

    I feel embarrassed — I am not usually this “mushy.”

  61.  #61gina on February 1, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    What wonderful comments!

    I was having epiphanies about how I can’t control others. I can take responsibility for my life by engaging my “response ability.” I think there’s only a small percentage of reality that is actually within our control. With what is within our control, it seems like being as positive and compassionate as possible is the most productive way to be.

  62.  #62Daria on February 1, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    you know… if i think life sux and i have to defend myself… that feels bad

    if i open up to it feeling good… that feels scary and yet better

    i feel drained by this and kinda angry

    i feel angry at having be careful be careful negative energy

    i’m here practicing Rori’s work, which includes OPENING UP and BELIEVING YOU WILL WALK INTO JOY AND IT WILL SIMPLY BE JOY

    i feel tired. FUCK. I feel angry.

  63.  #63Daria on February 1, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    wow i hadn’t even read the comments

    I am a Shamanness and a Goddess and I do attract white moths to my flame!


    i feel attacked and defensive!!

    I feel glad when a Goddess leaves or transforms a verbally abusive relationship, and she feels better.

    I feel bad blaming men!

    I feel good feeling angry at men for how I feel treated.

    I feel RAGEFUL at being blamed and attacked for practicing Tools.

    I feel smily which is my trigger defense I think.

    I love my outraged feelings!

    I love my Goddess self.

    I feel furious.

    I also feel judgemental.

    I feel tired..


    i feel like my tummy is boiling and my right shoulder is tense and holding tight… i love my boiling tummy and my tense right shoulder….

    and that feels like sighing and i love my sighs

    and i feel sad adn pouty and i love my sad and pouty face.

  64.  #64Daria on February 1, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    Heyy… Erika had something about the scorpion and the frog saying that it is BULLSHIT.


    Well I don’t want to believe shit that makes me feel bad.

    I feel angry reading your comments and I feel furious and unheard.

    on one part i feel like Whatever as well, because I feel angry and a part of me would feel gleeful and revengeful to watch you sink your own ship

    i love my revengeful self



    Women who are attached to toxic MEN are TOXIC THEMSELVES at that point.

    I feel frustrated that instead of getting in touch with the anger about that you choose to blame other people.


    I don’t really want to have all this on the blog and I’m feeling triggered.

    I feel like saying go start your own I blame Narcissistic men blog and stick with it!

    Does saying that make me feel good? I feel powerful and superior saying it. I feel overwhelmed by the bubbling lava in my stomach and the tightening in my thighs.

    This is the RORI TOOLS BLOG of which a main component is WE DON’T BLAME THE MAN.

    I feel glad to feel this triggered, and I feel a little frustrated feeling so overwhelmed by it.


    Can’t escape me can I.

    There is a part of me that says thats SOME things are immutable. Taht i am powerless.

    For example with money.

    And I DONT WANT to feel that way.

    I CHOOSE to feel I am limitless and powerful.

    I love myself and the part of me that says BUT YOU ARE NOT POWERFUL. Bad things happen to good people, and tehy will happen to YOU if you try to be powerful, if you try to be happy.


    I LOVE MY FURY AT THIS NV and at the GODDESS VOICES triggering it.


    I feel FURIOUS reading things that I feel limited reading.

    I feel SAD POWERLESS AND ICKY feeling misunderstood, unheard and unsupported.


    It feels like when I try to help people and my help is not heard.

    I feel like when the acupuncturist women told me to gather my friends and teach them what she taught me because it is a great thing.

    and i said,… mmm i feel icky… i don’t think people will listen to me.

    I feel SAD that i think people won’t listen to me, won’t be touched or see what I see…

    that feels like my VERY WELL KNOWN feeling of powerlessness.


    I FEEL ANGRY at feeling powerless.

    I FEEL ANGRY AND I feel tired and overwhelmed.


    THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

  65.  #65Daria on February 1, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    I feel so stuck! I feel sad and jealous that Rori has this way of getting through to people.

    I feel sad that I feel so fearful that I WONT get through to people when it really matters. Like to my mom.

    Or say if there was a war or soemthing and everyone was getting interned in detention camps and I was like no dont go theyll kill you and no one would listen.

    Or if I was telling my friends to focus on something that was not immediately physically dangerous adn that eventually tehy would master it it would reach them.

    Or if i had a student that didnt want to do school I could speak to them and get the clarity and the message of completing that even if their main interest was not in it.

    UGH i feel so STUCK.

    I have felt this STUCKNESS for so long it feels IMMOVABLE>


    Thank you!!!

  66.  #66Daria on February 1, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    I wanted so much to be RIGHT here.

    And now Im realizing it’s not about that.

    It’s about me being triggered like hell!!!

    Which means a babystep to healing!!! yay!!!!

    YAY I feel excited to heal this powerless feeling that keeps me stuck in my life!!!


    I feel angry at that LEFKOE lady who was telling me, ohhh I teach conscious parenting classes and my kid went surfing by herself in Fiji where she was the only one white on a whole boatload of people (ooooh!!! (sarcasm.) I felt patronized and judgemental)

    And it turns out that I AM POWERLESS BELIEF IS NOT already gone, just because “it worked for thousands of people” !

    there do seem to be other energies in my body to be released, but definitely the belief change activates a turbulance that brings them out or attracts situations so that they can release.

    I intend to do stretching and release this !

    I want to feel powerful and safe and free!!!

    Thank you

  67.  #67Rori Raye on February 1, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    marya, the question here is – why aren’t you married to him? And do you WANT to be? And so – since you want to be married to him, all these other women make you feel like you’re “not enough” for him. Please Circular Date – without actually dating. You need to have a heart-to-heart talk with this man. Love, Rori

  68.  #68Rori Raye on February 1, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    Daria, you are so cool….right on with the speech for Robin…Love, Rori

  69.  #69Rori Raye on February 1, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    Daria, Thank you for thinking of me as magical…but there are many, many people who don’t choose to hear me at all. You seem to me to be pretty darn powerful. Love, Rori

  70.  #70Turtle Girl on February 1, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    Wow! Talk about triggering! Phewww!!

    I just want to say, that labeling is not the same as blame. I am not blaming ANYONE. Blame solves nothing. I am stating facts. There is no blame. The blame game is futile. I am sorry that Daria either can not or chooses not to understand where Lisa and I are coming from. But you know, people can agree to disagree.

    This blog is about all sorts of stuff. Venting, feelings, empowerment, change, figuring stuff out, leaving stuff alone, support, learning, all sorts of things. So all of us have a right o be who be are and be ok with that. It’s a good blog.

    I think we often learn the very most from those people who trigger us. I know I do. So triggers are good if we can pick up a mirror and look at it.

    I hope you are feeling better.

  71.  #71Lisa on February 1, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    This is such a great forum, and I have learned so much here.

    From Rori’s newsletter today:

    “And then it hit me.

    I had to teach myself to treat myself well.

    I had to stop beating myself up so I wouldn’t
    attract men who’d help me beat myself up.

    I had to start loving myself so I would attract
    men who’d help me LOVE myself.”

    So simple, so true.

    Remove denial and harmful self-images. Have good intentions — write out an intention list.

    Thank you for your understanding, Melanie and Turtle G. I think you get where I’m coming from. Let’s just be real here and stop the head games.

    I agree with Gina:

    “It seems like being as positive and compassionate as possible is the most productive way to be.”


    You don’t seem to be understanding when you say, “This IS NOT A BLAME MEN BLOG.” I think that’s pretty clear to all of us. I’m not blaming; it is what it is. I wish to understand where I’ve come from, I won’t be able to fix/tweak it.

    This is not a “life sux” attitude. I am still an innocent, and see the world with a childlike awe, because that is who I am, and what feels good to me.

    I am exuberant to see the light, to get out from under my rock and chuck denial, and feel my anger. Denial doesn’t feel good to me. I don’t like behaviors that I consider naive, because they have gotten me into trouble. Oh, and I love my rejection of naivete 🙂

    Daria says, “I feel powerful and superior saying it”; You’re not superior, honey, and you feel that way, you don’t get it yet.

    But this is not an attack Daria or Lisa site — this is Rori’s site, and I believe we’re all trying to work her tools to our best abilities. So …

    Drive on.

  72.  #72Erika Awakening on February 1, 2010 at 6:43 pm


    I see.

    It’s okay for you to express your outrage with me, but not with a man?

    If you go to a coffee shop and order a latte, pay for it, and go to the barista counter to pick it up, and for some reason they don’t produce your coffee, do you walk out of Starbucks assuming that speaking up will only result in humiliation because “they want to hurt you,” “they get pleasure out of hurting you”?

    Or do you assume that if you bring it to their attention, they will remedy the situation?

    Yes, I get that our beliefs “feel” true. My negative beliefs once felt true also, and it wasn’t all that long ago. But the beliefs are not true.

    We create nightmares out of unresolved crap in our subconscious minds. Clean out the subconscious mind, and those things will stop happening.

    I feel little patience to spend my energy in discussions where there is not a lot of openness.

    Do you want to listen to people who are having huge amounts of success with men (men literally lined up out the door with offers to help and adore), or would you rather write off what they say without really even being willing to question your assumptions?

    I get that you were hurt, and I get that the experience felt real and true.

    Change your beliefs about men, and they will start to show up differently.

    Over and out for now, I have two sessions tonight. I spend my time coaching people who, though they may still feel a sense of powerlessness, also recognize that the ability to regain their power is in their own hands.

    Change your beliefs about men, about yourself, and about the world, and no more quote-unquote “psychopaths” will show up.

    I promise.

    Erika :-p

  73.  #73Lisa on February 1, 2010 at 6:45 pm


    “I wish to understand where I’ve come from, I won’t be able to fix/tweak it”

    I meant to say, “otherwise” I won’t be able to fix it.

  74.  #74Lisa on February 1, 2010 at 6:59 pm


    I don’t have outrage with you, E.A. I have already said that I believe it is correct to express upset over an unfulfilled business transaction, per your Starbucks ex.

    I agree with the benefit of attempting to clean out the subconscious mind.

    But when you patronize: “I get that you were hurt, and I get that the experience felt real and true,” I am triggered.

    It didn’t “feel” it was real and true — it WAS. I don’t live in the land of Maya or Lotus Eaters. My mind is powerful, but I don’t live in never-never land.

    I fully agree with reclaiming our power, and the power of positive thinking. Generally, my experiences with men have been felicitous. This last one really threw me for a loop because he has a personality disorder — AND, I BEHAVED AS THOUGH HE DIDN”T — and it is necessary for me, and others like me, not to be told we imagined what we experienced, or that we magically manifested it.

    All of my intending, all of the king’s horse and all the king’s men, couldn’t put Humpty together again. What I can do is reconfigure myself, and identify what is good vs. bad for me.

    I’m done with imaginary things.



  75.  #75gina on February 1, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    I don’t feel very curious about what someone has to say if they “have men lining up at the door.” Cause I have men lining up at the door…but I have no man inside of my apartment. And the men that I let in, I don’t want to keep. And the ones I wanted to keep, have gone away. I have expressed rage to men who have short changed me. It was kinda fun, and it felt good to deny the man the opportunity to “win”. I made it so he used me and he felt my wrath rather than bask in the good energy he swindled from me. But, I knew I was being kinda crazy to punish a man who didn’t care much about me. Continuing to be as beautiful as possible is the only real way to stick it to him. If we are ugly to him, he just runs away faster. If we are the sexiest we’ve ever been, how’s he going to feel about leaving?

  76.  #76Linda on February 1, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    I have spent the evening home alone with my loving little dog. There is comfort in it. I have spent so much time with “S” lately that I almost forgot how comfortable my little house is. Not lavish but it is mine.

    He told me the other nite that he did not feel at liberty to share sexually YET. He told me that he was not feeling manly and veral, confident. He said he felt lots of pressure from me, and yet earlier he told me that I was easy to be with and undemanding. Confusing to say the least…. I am not going to try to figure him out. That is his stuff. Mine?… I feel rejected and undesirable. I am triggered. I feel hurt and angry and wondering, curious, very very irritated.

    I had a date with me tonight. I am on my second movie and ate cinnamon toast for dinner. Soon I will go to bed and sleep more even though I had a yummy nap. I feel irritated in the background now. This is out of my control… I will concern myself with things that I can not his stuff.

    Off to bed with me… nite

  77.  #77Daria on February 1, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    just wanted to say real quick before i read.

    my saying i feel superior did not mean I AM superior. I mean I FEEL superior. It’s a feeling ive had frequently, and it comes up when I feel defensive and want to think Im RIGHT.

    I don’t like being called honey.

    and I dont like being called honey and talked down to and told that I don’t get it.

    I feel angry and amused and disconnected and furious.

  78.  #78Daria on February 1, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    Lisa – YOU don’t get it.

    There IS no real and true.

    There IS only what you imagine. That is why things shift as our perceptions shift.

    There are lots of posts where we do just this, recreate either a past experience in our subconscious (there was a post on this where Rori recommended Virginia Feigngold Clarke), or imagine a future experience.

    You can say your version is true, and I can say my version is true, and they can both be true.

    I’ve seen this in EFT work, Lefkoe belief change work, Rori’s work.

    You may feel a man is a narcissist and I may feel different.

    LABELS are Judgements and

    Rori’s work is to Not label. (does anyone remember what program or e-letter this was in? I don’t but I remember it being there).

    Don’t judge the man I think is one of the 4 Rori rules of respecting the masculine.

    So we can CHOOSE to step into a scary world we have experienced, or we can CHOOSE to step into a fresh supporting world.

    I feel attacked and triggered, and harrangued.

    To me it feels bad hearing men labeled and judged.

    I feel rolling my eyes and condescention. And that doesn’t feel good to think about. It is my defense to disconnect and look down on someone that attacks me. And I feel sapped of energy. I want to dismantle my defenses.

    I feel weak and pouty. I love my weak and pouty self.

    I feel attacked and I love my feeling of being attacked, I feel furious and I love my fury.

    Trigger trigger trigger. I love my triggeredness.

    What is the message here?

    The message is… I AM POWERLESS TO CHANGE OTHERS. Ummm I don’t like that. That feels like… powerlessness and that doesn’t feel good.

    so what is the message?

    The message is… FUCK PEOPLE WHO DONT WANT MY HELP! And that doesn’t feel good either, I CARE SO MUCH about certain people who seem not to want my help.

    so what is the message?

    The message is… I can turn away from what feels bad. And I can say it feels bad and stand there. And I’m strong! =)

    That’s a fun message

    ok what other message is there:

    well the mirror message is, I label and blame men in my life. Ok how do i do this? I label my dad, my exes, yes yes. I do this. How easy it was to come up with labels for my exes? hehe…

    I don’t want to label them! I fear this keeps them stuck ! I intend to remove labels.

    I speak to the divine masculine.


    I speak to the divine feminine. Divine feminine, you are beautiful, you are safe, you are the world beloved, love yourself and you will engulf all in love. Fear no evil woman for you are love and evil will heal in your presence.


    wow this kinda rocks!


  79.  #79Daria on February 1, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    I just re read my post. The Lisa YOU dont get it I want to change. I felt triggered, and I wanted to attack, so I did with that.

    Aha another message!

    This blog anger is an opportunity to really practice sticking to the four rules and feeling messages!

    AND opening up my inner drama queen at the same time.

    I feel excited now!


  80.  #80Lisa on February 1, 2010 at 8:21 pm


    What a lovely thought on the comfort of your cozy home. I like that feeling very much.


    No one is haranguing you — quite the opposite, and I didn’t ask for your help.

    This is a help site, not an ego site. IMO, it is ugly to be on the receiving end of attacks at what should be a place of comfort.

    Do you even know why you are being an attack dog? Somehow, you came in on the side of E.A., but we are not fighting with each other; we simply have different perspectives.

    I think it would be most helpful to return to the purpose of this site, and remove your ego from further interactions. I have nothing to say to say to you when you are in this mode.

  81.  #81Daria on February 1, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    Hi Lisa I feel attacked and talked down to.

    I FEEL like saying ” do YOU know why you’re being an attack dog?” but I don’t want to go that way (attacking) AGAIN grr. That is an attack, not a question I’m honestly curious about.

    Yes I’m BEING AN ATTACK DOG because I feel attacked and defensive and I’m triggered, and Being an attack dog (ohhh it feels INFURIATING to read that) is my defense mechanism !

    I feel totally unheard and furious

    and I did not come in E. A. side. If anything, she came in saying somethign regarding what I had said

    I, Daria do not like to see men judged and blamed. And I feel angry seeing that and reading it. I feel angry.

    I feel attacked. And I feel defensive. And I feel Angry.

    I do not want to see people blamed.

    I feel so clumsy expressing myself this way.

    my NV says to me… nobody cares what the fuck you feel! say something to defend yourself.

    I feel disconnected and kinda hopeless.

  82.  #82Daria on February 1, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    My mind is coming up with so many witty things to say!! ohhh I feel like I will feel amused and superior and powerful saying them!! I DO NOT WANT TO do this.

    I want to dismantle this defense of mine. Defense I love you. Thank you for being here.

    I feel unheard and misunderstood and “flooded” and weak bodied. I feel tired.

  83.  #83Daria on February 1, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    I feel like my head is clamped, and my mouth is set straight, and a storm is blowing through my chest. I feel NUMB and quiet. This is a “flooding” thing, I feel flooded with emotion.

    This is how I feel when I participate in a confrontation. I love my defense. !!

    I would like to feel powerful, open, clear, and confident, and safe.

    That would feel like… free flowing arms and body, expressive face, slow calm beating heart,


  84.  #84Daria on February 1, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    Good job Daria!

    I feel sad thinking about past situations. I still don’t feel like this defense is completely dismantled. I am pulling out one card at a time, from the top. Babysteps.

    I have in mind particular instances with Guywhohadababy’s sister

    which weirdly enough i remember dreaming about last nite… hmmm…

  85.  #85Rori Raye on February 2, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    Lisa, I wrote a huge, long comment for you, and it’s so personal, I emailed it to you personally for your permission. I want you to know I “have your back” and I see that you’re attracting “discussion” and “flak” – and that I see it as a mark of many things, and want to help you use the triggering here to shift to an even-better-feeling place. Basically, I want to talk about “judgment” and “mental work” and masculine energy, and I want to encourage womankind total to get out of our heads and respond to everything in life with only Feeling Messages – so we’re talking “Translations.” Yes, this is way more complex, I’ll keep writing. Thank you so much for combining your feminine heartfelt feelings and images, along with the masculine references and statements I want to tweak for you. You give us a place to react, to be triggered, to trigger you, and to jump off of. Love, Rori

  86.  #86Rori Raye on February 2, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    Turtle Girl – you’ve got it…it’s about all sorts of stuff, and moving things and energy around…Love, Rori

  87.  #87Simply Shannon on February 2, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Shoot! I missed this entire post. Subscribing for now. Back soon.

  88.  #88gina on February 2, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    by “never disrespecting a man”…is this a rule to live by? I feel ashamed to admit that I had been considering this a “tool” in terms of how to behave with a man. But I hadn’t considered that by discussing, criticizing, or judging him with my friends and family, or on this blog, that I am disrespecting him. And does that mean all men? Hmm…I immediately cling to the idea that there are men that don’t deserve respect. But then I can’t think of a single example of someone that I actually know in real life who doesn’t deserve respect. Even past men who ticked me off do deserve respect, and respond much better when I give them respect. Hmmm, if I was to try to respect people all the time, then I would only speak in feeling messages, because that really is the only way to tell the truth without invalidating someone else’ point of view. And I’m certain that I would be attractive to all those people I was respecting, and I’m sure that I would feel super Goddessy to be so true to myself and respectful of others.

  89.  #89Lisa on February 2, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Thank you, Rori. I like the idea of “translations”. I am learning how much more powerful feelings are than rationalizations.

    I spend a lot of time in my head; I write and edit. I used to take pride in a well-turned phrase. But even more powerful is being able to access my feelings. All of that has been learned in the last two months.

  90.  #90Rori Raye on February 2, 2010 at 6:33 pm

    Lisa, I noticed you’re becoming a hub for “flak” here You’re doing brilliantly in working with it…and I want to break it down, as I’m very, very familiar with this. First – you’ve got it – this is the key:
    “I had to teach myself to treat myself well.

    I had to stop beating myself up so I wouldn’t
    attract men who’d help me beat myself up.

    I had to start loving myself so I would attract
    men who’d help me LOVE myself.”

    Now — Lisa – please email me personally if you want help handling this, or want me to step in – in a more forceful way. Otherwise, I would love to help you get some supremely helpful stuff out of this triggering.

    1. You are a lightening rod – which is fantastic. You are never going to get lost in the shuffle, you are going to stand out…AND I’d like to help you see what tweaks might make a huge difference for you.

    2. Erika pushes buttons. That’s what she does. It’s part of her gift, her talent, her methods – and it won’t work for everyone, but for those it works for, it’s brilliant and so, so needed. For us, and why we’re so fortunate to have Erika pushing buttons here is – how that triggers us and what we do with it. MOST of us WANT to push buttons, too! And instead of doing that, we do it in more subtle ways, which are harder to see and notice and shift. So – notice how the way Erika pushes buttons and says things works inside you – how you’d like to be forceful and ‘tell it like it is” and actually be HEARD by a man when you do! There’s a confidence coming out of some of Erika’s posts that’s both repulsive and attractive to us, depending on our histories and how we’re triggered. So – really USE what you feel when you read Erika to discover what you have inside you that you may be stuffing down – including the “button pusher.”

    3. Daria is amazing – I could not have made you up any better, Daria, as the perfect model on how to “Riff” – how to bring “poetry” into your language and your heart and your relating…and so she triggers us in a different way…because she’s making use of this blog to PRACTICE this “stream of consciousness” that ultimately HEALS – without LOOKING like or BEING a MENTAL process designed to heal. she’s just plain “doing it.” And because it is so incredibly and delightfully “rangey” – it’s hard for those of us who work in a more “rational mind’ way to get what she’s doing here…and so if you’ll jump in and jump off of what Daria’s doing, you’ll find that part of you inside – the rangey, emotional part…and that will help you tremendously. We are very fortunate to have such strong voices here. Mercedes was like that, I haven’t seen her here in a while, perhaps I’ll email her personally. Mercedes was a lightening rod in another way – a strict boundaries kind of girl who has no patience at all for “whining,” and yet has a much different voice than Erika.

    4. Lisa – for whatever reason – why people are “jumping” on you here, and the need to defend yourself, etc (I’ve got your back…just let me know what you need) – is how things play out in the world with men!!! Watch how you’re being asked to “explain yourself,” etc. – does that sound like what you have to guard against out there? I know the feeling. And know this…Erika gets a lot of flak. I get a lot of flak in different settings, because, believe it or not…I’m quite provocative, on purpose. I’m actually disagreeable and turning ideas upside down all the time.

    What I’d like is for you to feel free to try on some different voices of YOURS – for fun. Try some of Daria’s poetic emotional release work, really really try to stick with Feeling Messages. Instead of defending yourself or explaining yourself to voices like Erika – (you are certainly a match for anyone, so we don’t need to strengthen that) – just go deep into what that triggers you. If you’re not sure about posting them here publicly, you can choose another name – your comment will go through moderation, and I’ll know who you are (I’m the only one who sees your email address). This way – you can create another persona and try out some new things!

    In fact – I’d like all of you to consider trying that – choosing a different voice for a different part of you and taking some chances – perhaps being more forceful than you normally would, or more poetic than you normally would…You can do this as much as you like!!! I may miss some of your real identities…but I’ll try to know who you are and appreciate what you’re doing for yourself this way.

    Lisa, I think you’re a really strong woman, and I’d like you to feel free to break that down here, in an anonymous way, without feeling like you’re losing your core strength. So – that would mean you don’t engage Erika or anyone else in discourse or “argument” or any mental stuff – and you stick totally with feelings, in the Daria way. Let me know what you feel about this. Love, Rori

  91.  #91Erika Awakening on February 2, 2010 at 7:42 pm


    Thanks for that last comment, very beautifully put.


    I’m going to go vulnerable here. For years, I held back things like “getting angry with a man and telling him how I really feel.” Did that get me anywhere? No, it did not.

    I wish there were a way to convey how profoundly liberating it has been for me to begin expressing myself totally uncensored with men. And to do it no matter how much “flak” I might get here or elsewhere.

    Not only did my full expression of my anger — and every thought, feeling and belief that came with it — completely get me over the last guy …

    It’s at the point now where I can have a complete anger melt-down in front of a man, directed AT him, and it draws him CLOSER to me.

    I don’t live in La-la land, and it feels incredibly dismissive when someone who has absolutely no idea what my life has been like says something like that.

    Things have transformed COMPLETELY for me. Where I used to attract “toxic men,” I now attract marriage proposals. Where I used to be so self-judgmental that men didn’t want to be with me, now I can do ANYTHING and they stick around. Because they can FEEL me, and they can see the intention behind every thing I do and everything I say of wanting to help transform the world.

    Do you have any idea how wonderful that feels?

    I have been there. I know it feels like “this is just the way the world is.” And I am telling you, no matter how much it seems that way, it simply IS NOT TRUE.

    Men will do anything and everything for you, but not if you are judging them. Not if you are judging yourself.

    By accepting all sides of ourselves, including our anger and our petulance and our grief and our desire for revenge, and yet also being fully in tune with our higher selves, we give everyone else permission to be their full selves. And THAT is deeply magnetic.

    People will bitch and moan about it, because it pushes their boundaries and feels uncomfortable at times, but deep down inside they LOVE it. For the first time in a long time — they feel ALIVE around us.

    My world has changed COMPLETELY because I changed my beliefs and stopped hiding my true authentic self.

    I assure you, this magical la-la land that I live in now is just as “true” as the cruel, bitter, stifled world I once lived in, and it feels SO MUCH BETTER.


  92.  #92Erika Awakening on February 2, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    And if you haven’t seen it (this is for all the Sirens),

    I recommend you rent the movie Vicki, Cristina, Barcelona.

    One of my male seduction coach friends asked me which woman in that movie a guy would be more interested in?

    Surprise! It’s the Penelope Cruz character, pistol and all 😉

  93.  #93Tara on February 2, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    This was such a wonderful post! Thank you, thank you!

    Sorry I haven’t been on in a while, I’ve been incredibly busy juggling two shows, 17 credits of English classes, lots of creative writing…and, wow, it’s raining men! 😀

    Two weeks ago, I had a coffee date with “Steve.” Some of you may remember him. He’s the married-guy-with-baby-and-abusive-wife I was obsessing over.

    After working so much on unzipping my heart and bathing in the fountain of self-love every day, some amazing things happened. During that coffee date, I started to look at him as just another guy. I started to look at him as free therapy.

    I lost my desire to have the relationship back, to get closure, or to chase after my love investment. The, after we parted, I thought about that relationship compared to what’s going on with the other men, and was able to see a lot deeper into myself and what makes a relationship (and attraction) work or not work.


    I spent months obsessed with Steve, anxiously second-guessing every sentence, thought, and feeling, trying to control him and the outcome. Of course it didn’t work and it made me miserable.

    Like Erika, I wanted my refund. I wanted Steve to “make it right” and I wanted my emotional investment back.

    Now, I just don’t care because I’m too busy enjoying the attention of other guys and the satisfaction of doing lots and lots of theater and writing — without Steve!

    Oh — he’s starting to send me romantic texts about the full moon again, and even texted the “I love you.”

    And, honest to Goddess, my reaction really truly was, “Oh. That’s nice…”

    The emotional investment I’m now making is in me. 🙂 I will always get that one back!

  94.  #94Lisa on February 2, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    Dear Rori,

    I feel so very understood — supported, protected and cared for … Rori, you’re my man! [just joking 🙂 ]

    Your challenge is a big one for me: British mum encouraged the stiff upper lip; last how many years spent controlling my feelings, seeing that as power. Then the wake up call: I control no one, but me.

    Last seven years being told to stop using the word “I”, keeping in mind that I would only use “I” when talking of my thoughts, vs. feelings, anyway. Still, I had to say, “One might think,” or “It is very nice to be here.” NEVER “I”. I was being too “self-focused” when I used “I”. Never again!

    So even though I’ve grown lots in the last couple of months, there’s way more to do. Sinking down into my feelings, and leaving the protection of my fabulous neocortex. Now that’s scary, but I feel it will be fun!

    I’m really glad to be here during the process. (I was going to say, “It is really nice to be here,” but no more remote statements 🙂 )

    I am so happy to be part of this amazing community of people opening their hearts, going deep to find their truth.

    Thanks for caring, Rori,

    Amazing sister-mother midwife friend

  95.  #95Lisa on February 2, 2010 at 9:43 pm


    All that you said here feels right. By feeling my anger (something I kept under wraps) I was righteous, powerful, and got myself out of a bad situation. Couldn’t do it til I accepted those formerly labeled “nasty” feelings.

    No one likes to be judged, and by not accepting all of my feelings, I was judging all the time, because I was scanning the horizon all the time, and that felt exhausting and diminishing.

    Being authentic (whole) is the way to go. Thanks for being vulnerable.

  96.  #96Lucy on February 2, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    Hmm. Reading Erika’s comment, I feel interested and amused. I feel full of wonder and curiosity about life, being human, journeys, and enlightenment.

    For most of my life, I have been just like Erika is now. Yes, a lot of the time it does feel really good. My therapist calls me a “truth-teller” and compares me to the little boy who has the guts to tell the truth in “The Emperor’s New Clothes.” Before I was married, I attracted many men who wanted to marry me — I dated several, but eventually ended each relationship because they were just not right for me. Interestingly, I am not all that attractive physically. In fact, in college, when I “got” the one guy all the girls wanted, a girl actually asked me, “How did YOU get him???” Lol. Erika is right — many men find feisty women alluring and intriguing.

    Ironically, I also can be very rational, logical and observant like Lisa — and that has served me well in many ways. Whenever I take a right brain/left brain test, I always come out straight down the middle, equal measures of both. I can see pretty clearly both Erika’s and Lisa’s perspectives, and I find it interesting, because I see the paradox of truth in both together.

    But for me, I am in a place on my journey where I am moving AWAY from being the way I have always been, for these reasons:
    1. I am tired of it. I can help transform the world in a different way now.
    2. I can see where it hurt my marriage, perhaps because of the type of man he was (I won’t label him! Lol), and I can see that a softer approach *may* have been better.
    3. I can see how Feeling Messages are more powerful than any other tool for relationships of ALL kinds — including those with my kids, parents, siblings, co-workers, etc. — and they make a lot of the other stuff unnecessary.
    4. This amazing man I am interacting with is teaching me and nurturing me on a path of increasing consciousness and decreasing negative emotional charge (which just so happens to merge beautifully with Rori’s teachings) — again making a lot of my old way of being sort of obsolete.

    So, we are all on our own journeys. None of us has arrived. None of us has all the answers. And here, on this blog, our paths cross or merge or run parallel for awhile, and we can learn from each other, looking for the wisdom and the love that is being mirrored back to us.

    I love Daria’s Feeling Messages. She is helping me learn to be softer on the outside. I love Lisa’s boldness. She is helping me to be courageous. I love Erika’s freedom. She is helping me to sort through all my choices and see what I want and don’t want for myself and my life.

    I am grateful for Rori and everyone else here. 🙂

    I feel nervous about hitting Submit Comment.

  97.  #97gina on February 2, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    Thanks Lucy, that was lovely!

  98.  #98Daria on February 2, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    Dude. I love the Penelope Cruz character. But then i think I WAS the penelope cruz character and i didn’t get loved… I WAS JUDGING MYSELF TOO THOUGH… hmm



    oh sex man called. im gonna rename him now

    his name is dman

  99.  #99Daria on February 2, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    Lisa you sound so wonderful!!! i feel almost teary!!! omgosh Im so excited that you’re gonna do the I thing and i feel ANGRY thinking of not using I.

    UFFF I didn’t use I for a long time either because I shut off my feelings on my own decision to not rock the boat because my mom was depressed and i didn’t want my parents to have to deal with my problems and feelings.

    And now I just opened them in the last two years.

    OH and did you know im a girl!??? im a WOMAN! I thought i was a lil boy child!

  100.  #100Erika Awakening on February 2, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    Thank you, Lisa. I feel really seen hearing your words. You feel a lot softer to me now, and more real, like now the hurt and anger you felt resonate deeply.

    Re Daria’s comment about Penelope Cruz, yeah, I’ve done that before too where it didn’t work for me. A shift has happened for me at a very deep level. I’ll try to express how it felt recently in the moment.

    I had two guys staying in my apartment, both of whom are great, but it’s a small space, and they were not cleaning up after themselves, and I felt totally overwhelmed. Instead of allowing my anger to fester as in the past into resentments and judgments, I simply spoke my truth out loud moment to moment.

    At one point, I got so triggered that I was literally screaming “get the F out of my apartment” and even threw something (not at anybody, just against the wall, no harm done). I felt anger coursing through my body. I was shaking. I don’t remember EVER feeling so enraged ever.

    And in that moment, I felt something I’ve never felt so strongly before. First, I didn’t lose presence. Second, I didn’t sling judgments at anyone. Third, I knew with complete confidence that one guy had to leave, and there would be no excuses or compromises. Fourth, I knew that even in that moment, I still cared about them as people and saw them as friends. Some of it was in feeling messages, but the words really didn’t matter because my entire body and being was a f**king FEELING MESSAGE, and everyone could FEEL it.

    It was intense. All of us were venting a lot of stuff. At some point I broke down and cried, and they both comforted me. All of us were having the feeling I had, which is that no matter how intense the emotions and tension, we all still deeply cared about each other.

    Afterwards, it passed away like a storm that had never happened. Not holding any grudges or resentment, just picked up and moved on with the guy who stayed with me, and he’s still here, and we’ve been creatively collaborating in really amazing ways.

    This whole scenario was not possible for me before, and I give the credit to the radical changes that I have made in my belief system over the past few years.

    I can now be Penelope Cruz and be loved EVEN MORE for my human-ness and vulnerability.

    Plus, nothing is going unsaid, so there’s no way for resentment to creep in. Everything is out in the open. It feels like such a relief to be able to be real, to be able to talk about my upsets and his frustrations with complete uncensored candor and realize it doesn’t change how we feel about each other.

    Daria, I love your feeling riffs too. They feel like soft morning air whispering in through a barely open window 🙂

    And I love what Lucy said cuz ultimately we are all moving toward wholeness, developing the sides of ourselves that were neglected, and learning to love every part of ourselves without reservation.

  101.  #101Felicity on February 3, 2010 at 2:20 am

    I feel very very triggered by a lot of what i have read here …

    I started out so very softly. after many phonecalls with Rori I finally managed to take a breath and say “I feel scared”.. I said it so quietly that he did not hear, it didn’t matter though as I had finally spoken how I really felt and that was the important part as he did not care how I felt only I cared how I felt and I had finally stood there and looked him in the face and withstood the vengence in his eyes. I am finding my feelings all the time..amazing!!! it feels amazing. I speak in feelings all the time now. I felt so confused for so long, I am not blaming anyone but i know I did not do that to myself..I was trusting and loyal

    I asked for honesty and I was given lies and accusations and was under constant attack. I had two babies to care for and I felt so strongly that a family, my family is worth protecting and I felt listened to when he would agree with me and say all the ‘right’ things and then confused to a point of exhaustion when he would do the opposite and then tell me that I was unreasonable, unloving, uncaring, cold..I didn’t feel unreasonable, i tried hard not to be cold but I could not melt no matter how relaxed I tried to be, I felt confused as my gut was screaming but still I felt hopeful and then I found Rori and she helped me to strip away all the lies and confusion.

    Months of counselling had only made me feel more at fault and more useless especially after calling the psychologist to beg after a particularly difficult day for help only to be told that I needed to settle down and stop expecting so much from him, she said she could understand why he felt like leaving. I feel differently about that now, I spoke to her a few months ago and told her what had actually happened and she was shocked, she had no idea and thought he was charming and that I was a very uptight. Rori saw through it all without ever even meeting him or even speaking to him. She told me it was not my fault and I feel so thankful I felt so hopeless and so terribly alone and now I feel hopeful and optimistic. I feel like all i have are possibilities and options now. I feel like i saved my children. I feel so happy sometimes it bubbles up inside of me..

    I still feel teary and so wounded when I think of my dad my darling dad whose last 3 months were spent in great stress watching his daughter suffer and struggle to reach this man that made a conscious decsions to treat her like shit so she would leave…my ex’s words not mine all the while telling her and everyone around her that he wanted to work things out…
    it was because of Dad that I was able to call Rori. He gave me the money and the support and that means so much to me ..he was a truly good man and he thought Rori was fantastic, I heard him telling people about this “communication coach” in america that was helping his daughter..he had no idea what she was telling me but he said well she is teaching you to talk so that was how he described her..I don’t know if he knew that she was helping me to feel..
    I felt so blessed to have him guiding me now, I feel him with me and my kids and I feel so sad that he did not live to see me as I am now..I know he knows but I feel so sad that he is not here. I feel like crying and finally I can..
    I am not sure really why I felt the need to write this now, it is only the tip of the iceberg and I know there is a long long long way to go but i feel excited.

  102.  #102Daria on February 3, 2010 at 3:10 am

    Oh my gosh Felicity I feel sobbign reading what you wrote i feel so sad. i feel so glad you are here and I am so glad your dad helped you so much and so sad he is gone for you!!! oh wow what a blessing and what a heartbreak i feel so sad baby that is sooooo sweet how he supported you about teh communication coach… awwwwww

    i feel so sad reading this omgosh

    i feel so jealous that my dad i dont feel supported by him and i feel so closed off to him sometimes and i feel so scared that he would die and i feel so glda hes not and i feel sobbign

    i want a good relationship with my dad so MUCH!!!

    he says its stupid for me to watch stupid shows like the bachelor and what do i need to read stupid dating blogs for but i am getting stronger and i feel this rolling off my back now unlike before its like i feel amused and i jsut see old beliefs that simply melt in my good energy almost like my energy being stronger they are melted like he is testing to see what i think and when i hold myself and my beliefs then it is able to make a shift for him as welllllll

    and that helped so much for me to see how ur dad supported you and i am sooo sorry hes gone booboo

    i jsut am sobbing and sobbinggggggg

  103.  #103Daria on February 3, 2010 at 3:14 am

    everyone in the house is starting to pay attention to my feelings now and feeling bad when i feel upset

    i feel guilty because i remember my mom telling me a lil while ago that i dont run this house and to stop trying to run this house and i feel that everyone paying attention to my feelings may be like running the house but

    I know its not. IM just not used to acknowledging my feelings and showing them. and it feels uncomfortable to be acknowledged.

    i am so glad for this too.

    my dad has gotten a great idea of how to support me marketing my business

    its all really pretty incredible babystep by babystep

  104.  #104tinque on February 3, 2010 at 7:49 am

    That is beautiful Felicity, moving, touching, just beautiful. What a lovely gift. My heart filling up with sensitive emotion.

  105.  #105Lisa on February 3, 2010 at 8:20 am


    I feel so happy that you can finally live up to the meaning of your name 🙂

    As you’ve read, Rori has also challenged me to hear and speak my feelings. They are the things that save us, and heal us, and really make life grand. But I was terrified of them, because my fury (which I had always stuffed down) was powerful. When I did feel the full brunt of my anger and sadness and disappointment, it was fairly easy to leave. Truly, I was already gone.

    This is so familiar to me:

    “I felt listened to when he would agree with me and say all the ‘right’ things and then confused to a point of exhaustion when he would do the opposite and then tell me that I was unreasonable, unloving, uncaring, cold”

    Things are bubbling up for me all the time, and this triggers one. I realize now, when I look at the timeline, that always before he would disappear/cheat, he would have some angry and accusatory diatribe about how “my knees were closed” and how frigid I was. I felt incredulous and confused. It was NOT true!!!

    “Me?” I thought, “I feel pretty good my abilities, and most other guys do, too.” I remember the last time it happened, I had just rec’d an email from a past, now happily-married friend on the West Coast who thankfully had absolutely countermanded the msg. “You were always such a warm and good lover.” It was I who refused his proposal back then. So this was a bit of wake up call from the universe. Thank you, CB.

    A big lesson I take from this past reln.: When a man is cruel to you out of the blue, and you are pretty agreeable and helpful otherwise, he’s guilty. He’s angry — and if he will not communicate, his anger is serving him, too.

    If religious, he’s doing penance by creating an unhappy family life. If …. Cruelty is rarely “senseless”, and always serves a purpose. And, we should never live that way.

    I’m so glad we’re on the path to free expression, and no more bondage at the altar of “Him”. Feeling my feelings + expressing them = freedom.

  106.  #106DocK on February 4, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Felicity, thank you.

  107.  #107Mercedes on February 5, 2010 at 6:07 am

    This conversation was amazing! I REALLY wish I was in a place where I could share here, but unfortunately, I’m not at all there.

    This post really, really sparked some cool stuff! I miss you all and hope to be back here as well as on my own blog soon.

    Rori: “Mercedes was a lightening rod in another way – a strict boundaries kind of girl who has no patience at all for “whining,” ” WOW! You nailed it with that description of me huh? LOL! 🙂 Love you girl!

    Much Love,

  108.  #108DocK on February 5, 2010 at 8:21 am

    Yes, Mercedes is all that and so much more. She, Tinque and the others here (I almost wrote “mainliners” but I think I mean “headliners”) and every single woman (and sometimes man) contribute so much to my growth, learning and practice.

  109.  #109Lisa Fox on February 5, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    Hi Rori
    Thank you for the emails. I think I need all your programs, but can’t afford that so tell me which one you think will work for me best. I’m absolutely smitten with a man that lived with me for 10 months and then left saying he needed space, but I’m perfect in every way so he says….I am very positive and upbeat and very pretty…..I always attract alot of people to me because of my personality. My “friend” who no longer lives with me, works where I work in the hospital and as much as I try to avoid him sometimes we run into each other and all those feelings I’m trying to let go of come right back. I believe he has alot of feelings for me. When he see’s me looking great and confident which I always am anyway with or without him, he wants to pass a kiss or a hug tease me along, but no committing…he is basically looking for “another” friend with benefits. He apparently has a couple of those… 52yrs old I would think he would want someone special. He said I loved him “too much”….I don’t think he deserves someone like me but feel a deep emotional bond when we are around each other. I can’t let him go, no matter how much he lies or hangs out with other women. I have learned to not let him come over to my place anymore for “a good time” and now he is avoiding me as much as possible. It’s like I didn’t even exist. It’s like I feel I have done something wrong telling him “NO SHARING” I feel like I meant nothing, when he won’t even call me to ask how I am doing? Is this his own guilt getting to him? What program will work best for me that you have? Thank you Rori

  110.  #110Erika Awakening on February 6, 2010 at 9:48 am

    Hey all,

    This passage is from the Holosync promotional materials, and it’s a good description of how I live within feelings like intense anger nowadays. I find that if I maintain this level of continuous conscious awareness through the “drama,” things transform very rapidly.

    “It is impossible to create something that does not serve you, and at the same time create it consciously. You can, however, create dysfunctional feelings, behaviors, and outcomes over and over as long as you create them unconsciously (without continuous conscious awareness). If you observe the creation of feelings, behaviors, or outcomes with conscious awareness, those that do not serve you will fall away.

    “The trick is to remain conscious. Unfortunately, we have many ways of becoming unconscious: overeating, drugs and alcohol, projection, blaming, thinking, analyzing, obsessing, spacing out—and countless others. To become conscious, you must identify your favorite ways of going unconscious, be vigilant in noticing them, and instead of going unconscious, learn to watch your feelings, thoughts, and behaviors with curiosity and awareness.”

  111.  #111marya on February 6, 2010 at 10:57 am

    Dear Rori
    We live together but everytimes there as bee alking about marriage in near our freinds he says he is not going to marry,never.
    And i am so afraid to take up marrigae,maybe he does not change anyway.I have talked to him about his relationship with other girls.Before ,he was so pen,they kissed him even i was there.He said he can not stop other people from doing so.later he said he hide some of this because he think i have no right to say to him who he can meetwho he can talk to,…-After all these he has hiden everything from me,but i have seen his e-mail sometimes and i see he ask them about how they have it,if the ex-girlfriend had sex,…and then the girls began comming to him or visit him in the places they know he is.I really think he want to meet them but he does not say it open,he knows by sendin like this emotional massage the girls comes by themselves ad he hide it.
    He comes home each day,he say m dear girlfriend to me,…
    i have such bad time,because i do not believe in is love,or maybe i believe but i feel he want me and all these girls at same time
    He enjoy because by not be open,i will be with him and trust him and all these women are around him when he want,so he is the vinner and i am the girl not sure and not happy enough

  112.  #112Rori Raye on February 6, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    Lisa – Welcome – and – you’re not going to like this…it’s going to be tough love. My question is “What are you doing???!!” You are chasing a man who says you love him too much. Does that sound good for you? It’s the exact opposite of what should be happening – which is a man loves you more than you love him. And he shows it.

    This guy’s 52, and he wants to be a playboy – which is OKAY!!! for HIM!!! – Now – you MUST forget about him, build your self-esteem and self-respect (which – no matter what you say – just HAS to be down below the floor in order for you to hold onto feelings for this man) – and you do this by Circular Dating…So get the ebook first –it’s the basics you need to practice 24/7 – then go for Targeting Mr. Right and Modern Siren (I think they’re coming up as a packaged special soon – look for it in your emails) – and if you have to pick just one, go with Modern Siren, and then learn all you can about Circular Dating here in the Targeting Mr. Right category until you can get the program. You can DO this – you are NOT at his mercy!!! You are your own person, and you get to decide who has the power in your life!! – it’s YOU who has the power – hang onto THAT, instead of onto HIM. Love, Rori

  113.  #113Marie on February 7, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    I’m so confused and I don’t know what to do! What do you do when your boyfriend (mid-twenties) has left you after a long term relationship because he is ‘confused’ needs his ‘space’ and is also scared of marriage in the future? He said it hurt him so bad that he was hurting me. I stopped chasing him and he eventually came back around wanting me back, I let him back into my heart but he is still confused! He said he’d never stopped loving me but he is still confused about things, and he appreciated me giving him space…but he hasn’t yet committed to a relationship again while we are ‘taking things slow’. We see each other once or twice a week now and he is very affectionate with the loving comments and the cuddling, but then he goes the whole week after without calling. I’ve started to flirt with other men to gain back my confidence and I’ve gotten my life back in order. But I don’t know what to do for him to come back and work on our relationship together!

    This has only been going on for a few weeks and I’m doing my best to wait at least a day to return his call and to make plans without him. I love him and would like him to finally open up to me but he has yet to do that. Do you think moving in with a man before marriage is a mistake? We had such an amazing relationship and were making future plans together. Is it possible to get it back or is he a lost cause?

  114.  #114Rori Raye on February 8, 2010 at 4:35 am

    Marie – Welcome, and Brava to you for making so many changes that are actually working for you. My answer would be…you are both very young. I’m thrilled you’re flirting with other men – now you have to go on DATES with these other men. There’s no need to stop seeing this man – just stop calling him your “boyfriend” and Circular Date with actual dating. Over the next year, you may meet a fabulous man who’s READY for a serious, committed relationship, or this man might step-up in order to not lose you. Love, Rori

  115.  #115sia on February 8, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    how do you know you are conscious when creating anger??

    I liked the story about roommates. But it is different with a guy, no? If he stops calling, would you drive to him and scream at him – hey, you promised? That sounds like begging to me. (if somebody screamed at me for not wanting him, I would see them as pathetic).

    I have a question – what if it weren’t your apartment?
    I have messy housemates – what do I do? They like the mess, I don’t – but I am not their boss.
    I think cleanliness is better than mess, they think the opposite.
    I don’t want to move out, because my friends live in much worse situations – rude people, people playing music late, having parties every day – so I prefer to stay with my sweet polite housemates and politely ask them to clean multiple times (they do so after reminders) – and they do this for me and not for the other girl who alienated them by screaming at them.

    And I do feel the rage, I do!

    I just don’t see how it would work, expressing it.
    It is different when you were doing the people a favour when they were living in your flat..

  116.  #116Erika Awakening on February 8, 2010 at 8:15 pm


    Thanks for the question, I just happened to be logged on my email when it came through and have a moment before my next session to reply.

    You know, I considered EXACTLY that question when all this was going on. I started to think, my God, if I were LIVING with a man, and the place were half his, and this were happening, would I feel powerless? would I think I had no say-so because it’s “half his place”?

    I went through that whole thing in my mind and checked the feelings that came up.

    And then the answer came to me, CRYSTAL CLEAR.

    The answer was, no, it would not be okay, and I would not tolerate it. If I had to, I would move out. Absolutely I would first communicate honesty with him. But if that didn’t work … I would find new roommates, I would find a new place.

    Because it’s not about HIM. It’s about my own standard for living. I don’t want to live in a pig-sty. Period. And I’m willing to leave a man if that’s my only option, to live somewhere that feels peaceful to me.

    And guess what … that realization gave me an inner strength to negotiate the situation from strength instead of weakness.

    later, I also realized that I want a baby and don’t want to be having sex with condoms. Which I also said out loud. That prompted him to move on with his travels.

    And THAT IS OKAY. 🙂 I learned so much over the past month by putting myself in this intense situation. Every relationship I have from now on will be the better for it.

    But if I had censored myself, that growth would not have happened.

    He feels the growth too. I get the sense we are both feeling grateful for it.

    – Erika 😉

  117.  #117sia on February 9, 2010 at 5:23 am

    hi erika,
    thanks for answering
    unfortunately I got some info about you and not answers to questions I asked. I feel completely misunderstood:)

    You said you would leave a guy who is messy. That is okay.

    I had a feeling you were saying b4 anger can help you. My question was, would it help me in my situation? You also mentioned communicating clearly now. That is not what I wanted I was asking about. I am asking about anger and yelling. Thanks

  118.  #118Erika Awakening on February 9, 2010 at 8:12 am


    lol, all right, and I feel annoyed that it sounds like there is a “demand” that I answer a particular question in a particular way.

    You asked this question: ” I have a question – what if it weren’t your apartment?”

    I answered it from my perspective. To me, it doesn’t matter whose apartment it is; all that matters is what I want for my standard of living, then I know I won’t stay in a home that doesn’t provide that.

    As for HOW I answered the question … just so you know, I don’t tell anyone else what they “should” do. Advice doesn’t help anyone. It fragments people. (Ask 100 people and you’ll get 100 answers — is that helpful?)

    When you say “you mentioned about communicating clearly now,” to me, at times, that includes anger and raising my voice. Pretending not to be angry when I’m angry is not honest communication.

    Being conscious means I’m fully present when I’m doing it. I don’t go unconscious. My observer is turned on, feeling every feeling, hearing every word, staying present with me and the other people, using non-violent communication.

    Most people have never learned non-violent communication and never learned the value of their anger (it tells us loud and clear when certain needs are not being met).

    After this experience, what I learned about myself is that I don’t want to have to remind people five times to do something that to me is basic to enjoyable living. So I’ll have to find another way, so that reminders are unnecessary. But at least by staying present, I learned more about my standards.

    I don’t view anything I do as “begging.” That’s a judgment, it implies that our true feelings are not okay, and I don’t believe in stuff like that anymore. Would I drive to a man’s house to yell at him? Probably not because it wouldn’t be worth the effort. But if it mattered enough to me to be heard, perhaps I would. I don’t know, I’d see how I felt in the circumstance.

    Sorry for not giving you a more traditional answer, my friend. I have a different style from other people on this board.

    I can ask you questions, though.

    How do you FEEL when you have to ask them repeatedly to do something? Does it make you less or more angry the second, third, and fourth times?

    How do you FEEL when you’re angry and you hold back from expressing it? Do you feel you are living your full, authentic, uninhibited self?


  119.  #119Erika Awakening on February 9, 2010 at 8:24 am

    And if this is an ongoing problem in your household, why wouldn’t you have everyone sit down for a house meeting where you express your feelings and needs about the situation non-violently? Teaming up with your other roommate instead of separating yourself from her.

    I don’t want to have to ask people repeatedly to do something, it takes too much of my emotional energy. This is why I look for more global ways of communicating, and if they don’t work, I set strong boundaries like asking someone to leave.

    I said before my perspective is very different. Please understand that I operate under the premise that I’m connected to everyone. Thus, I only need to set the boundary within myself. I’ll get myself out of one situation knowing that because I’ve set a new standard, I can now “attract” a situation that suits me better. Whereas if I tolerate an intolerable situation, I’m giving my subconscious mind a signal that it’s ok, and my subconscious mind will get in the habit of creating that “icky” situation. Too much to explain right now.

  120.  #120sia on February 9, 2010 at 8:32 am

    hi, thanks erika!
    now I felt heard by you! That I was missing, not conventionality in your answers.
    Yes, when I remind, I feel angry. I don’t feel authentic not expressing it.
    I also feel I am better off than my housemate – the girl who was authentic and yelled and now the guys are completely closed off to her and when she asks them to do something, their resentment comes up from how she dealt with them.
    I feel if I let myself being authentic and yell, the result would be dirty house.

    What do you think of compromise? Because before I lived in a house with a bully who was clean, and generally when 8 people live together in big houses, at least one person makes you want to scream at them from time to time. If they feel they haven’t done anything too wrong, they will see the screaming as overreaction and not take even other comments into account, right?

    I feel if I lived my full uninhibited self at all times, I would inhibit others:(. I am going for trying to live the maximum, but at work and with housemates who are not friends it is not easy..

    My friend has a little baby and if she were uninhibited, she would just cry or scream when it wakes her up at night for the upteenth time.

    Isn’t relationship with other people also work, not just fun?

  121.  #121Erika Awakening on February 9, 2010 at 8:43 am

    Oh, one more idea, and it’s too much to explain right now.

    But that rage you said you do feel and don’t express …

    From doing a lot of experimentation, I’ve come to suspect that it’s actually that rage that creates the problem that “seems” to trigger the rage.

    In all of these situations, in conjunction with honest and full expression, I tap (do EFT) on the anger and everything that triggered it. What tends to happen is that whatever infuriating situation triggered it all never happens again. It just never comes up again because the issue was in me all along, and I have resolved it within myself. This is my system, and it works.

  122.  #122sia on February 9, 2010 at 9:05 am

    you are right,
    it is too small a space to explain properly your thoughts..
    I don’t understand.. I see that it is my problem that I want a clean house without having to do all the work myself but I don’t see how I could tap into this and change it

  123.  #123Erika Awakening on February 9, 2010 at 8:30 pm


    the question is …

    just how far down the rabbit hole are you willing to go?


  124.  #124Rori-fan on February 22, 2010 at 3:40 am

    Dear Ladies, I am Circular Dating since a while and some days ago I dated this guy. During the date he asked me if I am dating other guys. I was honest and first it seemed like he is cool with that and we agreed to meet this week again, but now I got a message telling me that he really wants to see me again, but he would have to cancel our next date if I really meet the other guy, because that is not the way he does this. I replied that I would really like to get to get to know him more and see if he is what I am looking for in a man and that it shouldn’t worry him that I am meeting other guys, but I guess that our date is cancelled (because I won’t cancel other dates for him) and he should let me know when he changed his mind. I think this was the “Rori”-Way to do this, but what if he will ask me what I would think if he dated other girls besides me – what do I answer? This is not the first time a man told me that they actually concentrate on one person when they date. I am not so sure how to answer in a good effective way. Maybe you have so tips for me? Xoxo, Sandy

  125.  #125Rori-fan on February 22, 2010 at 3:56 am

    P.S. I am really curious if he will change his mind and agree to meet me again. He was really nice…

  126.  #126Lori on February 22, 2010 at 5:34 am


    This is not about whether or not HE will “change his mind” and agree to meet YOU. It’s about whether or not you like him enough to give him one of your precious date nights. I always look at it like this: There are 7 days in a week. I am busy with family and stuff with my children 4 nights of the week. I refuse to give up family time for dates with men, so that leaves only 3 nights per week that I am free for possible dates. If 5 men want to date me, then the ones who ask me the earliest (because they KNOW I am busy and are showing respect for my time and schedule and showing their interest by wanting to be sure to get one of those few free nights) are the ones who “win” a date with me. Kind of like a lottery, and once you truly start seeing yourself as a goddess that all men want, you will realize that spending time with you IS winning a lottery of sorts for a man.

    You will find with circular dating that some guys will be willing to deal with it and others will not. The ones that won’t tend to feel manipulative and controlling to me and seem also to be boundary pushers. I say stand your ground and see what happens. Basically he is saying “OK I’ve asked you out and I’m deciding whether or not I want you and what I want from you, but because it’s all about what I want, while I am deciding I don’t want to have to compete with any other men. If I decide I don’t want you, then I will allow you to move on and date someone else.” When you look at it that way it seems pretty clear, doesn’t it?

    You are not off the market until you have a ring on your finger showing that you are. That’s what a ring symbolizes-it shows the world that you are in a committed relationship with someone and no longer available. If a man is not willing or “ready” to give you a ring, then he is not yet ready to commit HIMSELF to YOU, so why should he expect that you take yourself off the market and commit YOURSELF to HIM?

    I have a circular dating guy who was not very present at first. He only called me a couple of times a MONTH and only asked to see me about once a month. Yet he wanted me to date only him and said so on several occasions. He also got very angry when I made plans with other men and once cancelled plans with me because I refused to cancel a date with another man. Once I made plans with him and when he didn’t confirm by phone with me, I made plans with someone else. When he finally confirmed last minute, I told him that since I hadn’t heard back from him in days about our plans, I made other plans. He was FURIOUS and demanded I break my date with the other guy. (he had already paid for a non refundable hotel room for that night since he lives out of town and I don’t allow him to stay with me) I refused to break my plans and explained to him with feeling messages why. The funny thing is, after he cooled down, he did a 180 and apologized to me and is now calling me and trying to make plans more than ever. He actually told me that he respected me more than any other woman he’s ever met because I refused to let him cross my boundary. Now he realizes it’s not about what HE wants. It’s about what I want, and he’s going to have to compete with other men and step up and treat me right if he wants to be with me. It’s really quite empowering when you see a guy make a change from bad to good behavior like that. I’ve found that even a good man will subconsciously take advantage of a woman if her boundaries are weak and she lets him.

    It’s hard at first, I know. But I can assure you when you start seeing the bad ones drop off and better ones step up and seeing men start respecting your boundaries more, it will be worth it and also get easier and feel more authentic over time.

  127.  #127marya s. on February 22, 2010 at 8:10 am

    I went to cinema last week and watch the film ITs Complicated.I thought about the role of the Meryl in that film so much.
    So many times many other women would be angry and disapointed about these two menn in the film but i think she was so open,so inviting ,she was o feminine at the same time hat she realy without so much problems get the men to open theirselves and show who they really were and then it was not difficult to say yes to the right man and at the same time let men come near,i loved that film

  128.  #128Lucy on February 22, 2010 at 9:14 am

    Lori, I loved what you wrote here! It’s amazing to me how this stuff becomes clearer and clearer the more I hear it said in different ways with different words and different “voices.”

    I feel grateful for what you said about the days that are reserved for your family. I was just thinking about that this week — Mon, Tues, and Wed, I have things I do with my son. Thursday I have Bible Study. That leaves Fri, Sat, and Sun — 3 days, just like you said. And, lots of Fridays and Sundays I have to transport my other kids home from college or back again when they come home for a weekend. But I almost always have Saturdays free. I had been wondering if I should be more willing to cut into time with my son if I am really serious about circular dating, but that felt sad to me. He is my “baby” — and at age 17 I don’t have much longer with him at home. I cherish the time we spend together. I also am available during the day some days, so that works for some guys too.

    Anyway, I feel better about my time-boundaries after reading your comments. 🙂

  129.  #129Rori Raye on February 22, 2010 at 10:01 am

    Rori-fan – you just found the key, here – of COURSE a man concentrates on one woman at a time – that’s how he’s wired! It’s straight-line focus vs. multitasking. And way stacked in his FAVOR!! Only thing is…by you’re being forced to be exclusive with a man…you get crazy, clingy and weird, and also pressured to have sex way too soon. What you do here is open up – and give him the no girlfriend speech – that when he feels you’re “the one” and wants a serious commitment leading to marriage – you’ll drop all other men…but until then, he’s the pursuer and the searcher, and you want to give him time to make up his mind… ALSO – let him know you’re open to negotiating, even though this isn’t how YOU do things…just keep talking about it with him – use it as an opportunity to go deep into what he wants, what he THINKS – all that – what a great topic of discussion without having to talk about the relationship you’re having together! Love, Rori

  130.  #130Lucy on February 22, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Rori – “of COURSE a man concentrates on one woman at a time – that’s how he’s wired! It’s straight-line focus vs. multitasking.” But what about the many men who DON’T concentrate on one woman at a time, who are multi-tasking by dating several women at once. I recently read some “love systems” material where they actually help guys get lots of women in their rotation — not just for sex, but for relationships. And there are also guys who do that all on their own, without “love systems.” So I feel confused about men being “wired” for one woman at a time…

  131.  #131marya s. on February 22, 2010 at 10:57 am

    Dear Rori
    You tell me why i do not marry him?first because he tell me ,ask everything yoy want but not marriage,when i told him i want to get marry.The other one,i am afraid get marry him and he continue this women friends systems,,

  132.  #132Rori-fan on February 23, 2010 at 9:42 am

    Ladies, I just read these comments (I didn’t get a notification as usually???), anyways, THANK YOU SO MUCH, Lori and Rori!!!! This helps me a lot!!! I’ll take it to heart!!!! @Rori, what do you mean with “let him know you’re open to negotiating (???), even though this isn’t how YOU do things” ….P.S. He wrote me back this morning, that he thought about what I answered him and that it makes sense to him and that he would like to meet me again 🙂 Love, Rori-fan

  133.  #133Rori-fan on February 23, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    Ohhh, Ladies, I had such a nice date yesterday! With another man! I met him on my way to work in the bus. 🙂 Anyways, he really surprised me with very romantic dinner. That was our second date. But I must say, afterwards I felt a bit like he gave me too much. The dinner was expensive, and he had a present for me (I opened the present at home and was very surprised in a good and bad way). He already gave me presents for Valentine’s day (put them in my mail box) after only meeting one time! 🙁 I mean, to be honest, I would like to keep those presents, but I feel like I can’t keep them. I don’t know him. He is really nice, but what if I finally decide that he is not the man? When I get to know him more and finally come to the result that we don’t fit together? I will feel guilty. I feel like writing him an email later that it makes me feel uncomfortable and guilty when he gives me all those expensive presents without even knowing each other good enough. Or do I don’t have to feel guilty? Also he tried to kiss me and I said that I don’t wanna rush things. Guess it’s time to be more clear and tell him what I want. Is it actually going to far when men take my hand and walk with me hand in hand? I can’t refuse it when they take my hand, and I don’t even feel bad doing it, I would feel stupid to not let them take my hand, but with nearly every men I just started dating? I mean, I am not sleeping with them, and though I wonder if I am not kinda going too fast and giving wrong signals? Sorry for the bad grammar, my english ain’t perfect. Love, Rori-fan

  134.  #134Lori on February 23, 2010 at 8:54 pm


    Practice receiving. Don’t worry about the expense, let THEM decide how much they want to spend on you! Men LIKE to do things for a woman. I wrote an entire post about it in “New Post For Questions” if you’d like to read it. I find when I leave it up to them, they tend to do even more for me than I expect!


    I wouldn’t cut time with my babies for a man. They just grow up and are gone so fast and we already don’t get to spend time with them when they’re in school and we’re working etc. The way I see it, your time is in even more of a short supply than mine. So your “price” should naturally be higher and the men should have to work even harder to win one of your few precious dates!!!! Diamonds are more expensive than sapphires because they are more rare, right?

    I have actually told a man who asked me out that I was booked solid (I was!) for nearly 2 weeks once. I can’t tell you how empowering that felt!

    And the tables have completely turned with one of my original circular dating guys who is a workaholic and never had time for me. Now he’s the one calling over and over again asking for dates and I’m the one telling him I’m too busy to see him!

    It’s really quite amazing when you really start to “get” all of this. I overheard 2 of my co workers talking about setting up a new guy with me and one of them said “She probably won’t even go out with him. She has such a fabulous life with so many men asking her out already.” I could hardly believe it! A year ago one of those same co workers described me as a sad woman who couldn’t get a date or stop pining over her ex!!!!

  135.  #135Rori-fan on February 24, 2010 at 3:33 am

    Practice receiving…yeah, you are right, well….than I guess I will have to keep the present…too bad 🙂 LOL

  136.  #136Rori-fan on February 24, 2010 at 3:34 am

    Oh…and of course I like to read your post!!!! 🙂

  137.  #137Rori-fan on February 26, 2010 at 1:03 am

    Hey Ladies, after me circular dating the last weeks and not beeing in contact since Saturday with my ex (long-distance-relationship that lasted a year now with break-ups in between) he shows up today by emailing me…but only three words “I miss you”. I refuse to answer him straight away, but I feel unsure about how to react. I guess I am thinking too much about it. To be honest, deep inside I was hoping to hear from him again. It was hard for me not to reach out to him these days. On the other side I knew, we were actually at the point realizing that it’s just not working with us. The very long distance, our both very different personalities and often not getting along with each other, because we get on each other nerves – me beeing too emotional and sensitive and needing too much affection and attention (as he says) and him beeing often very harsh, brutal honest and outspoken and cool, able to push me away when I want affection and him not able to be as loving and caring and emotional showing as I want him to be, and him seeming to be back and forth if he wants a relationship or not. Why I am still hanging on this? Well, I guess the fact that he is so much like my stepfather – knowing that deep inside he has a good heart and both (him and my stepfather) had a very bad childhood, both unable to show too much emotion and often beeing very cold, knowing that it took years till my stepfather could open a little bit more up to my mom. A week ago I confronted him with what I want, marriage and kids, and he said, that he imagines to marry maybe in the next five years – too long for me. I will respond to him tonight. Maybe I should just be friendly, ask him how he is…I refuse to just answer that I miss him too! He may just not answer for days to that, as I assume and I will feel confused again. Well, just felt like I needed to write my thoughts down, maybe you have some good words and advice for me.

    @Lori, I couldn’t find the post you where talking about, where exacty do I find it?

    I wish you all a wonderful weekend!

  138.  #138Daria on February 26, 2010 at 2:46 am


    I feel rrrargggh reading your post. I feel like shaking you – I have a trigger to control people when they don’t do what I think is best for them.

    As far as your question, I suggest using some Rori tools. Like feeling messages. NOT leaning forward and asking how he’s doing… and ‘being friendly’ but actually unzipping your heart and finding how you’re feeling. I would like to see you write about your feelings here.

    another thing i could do is not respond and let this man go, as a long distance relationship is not what I want, what I want is a real touchable relationship

    I feel like grrrrr. I feel like a far away anger.

  139.  #139Rori-fan on February 26, 2010 at 3:08 am

    Yeah…letting go…that’s the problem!!! I still haven’t!!! I started dating other guys, I started focussing on me and my life, I started feeling good and not love-sick and needy and hurt, but in the back of my mind he has still been there. I have to let go. Not only my mind tells me this, when I sit back and think about “us”, my feelings tell me too. I know I have to do what is good for me and care about how I feel, and I already started with this. I just tend to fall back sometimes. Thanks for shaking me, Daria!! I know what I have to do!!

  140.  #140mary on February 26, 2010 at 3:14 am

    You said men concentrate on one woman at timen.I do not know if i underestand it right?
    My housband needs very much to get repons from women that he is the best,…in many thing.I found it in the beginning.He write papares and he send them to me and some other girlfriens he has.I have very serous job and i have not time to use many hours a day in front of pc.So i answered sometimes late.So took it away and i have seen he send it to other women.
    He has a kind of near emotional relationship with them.They talke about everything with him but he just talked about fun and flirt with them.I have been very angry for this over time.I have felt that men has this circle dating,such that many women make themselves open with them when these men make it safe and good for them.The woman think maybe she can make the relationship seroius and began to give but the man is just playing and they are not serious.
    I have confronted my man with these,but he says i do not know why you use time on these,these mean nothing.But i know as woman it means very much for these women,…
    What do you think about these?

  141.  #141Julia on February 26, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Hi, Rori,

    I’m trying to find the new Your Story area, to leave comments, etc., but keep getting taken to the Archives area, where the dates are 2009 and 2008. How can I get to the new thread, where people are leaving comments? Thanks,


  142.  #142Erika Awakening on February 27, 2010 at 6:43 am

    Sia (and anyone else who was interested in more details on how do I change my deep-rooted subconscious beliefs about men so that they start showing up differently for me?)

    I now offer a 7-day free video course showing the basic method that I use for transforming my own and other people’s belief systems.

    Because beliefs create the reality that we experience, if we systematically resolve old traumas (relating to our parents, especially) and “tap in” new beliefs, the men who start showing up will be completely different from those of the past, and men who are already in our life will transform before our eyes.

    it really is THAT magical.

  143.  #143sia on February 27, 2010 at 7:05 am

    hi erika,
    that’s great!
    are you going to post the link somewhere?
    i just happened to see your comment on the side, otherwise would not find it. Would you post under new post for questions as well, so that more people get to see you?
    thanks, how nice, video course!

  144.  #144Erika Awakening on February 27, 2010 at 7:11 am

    hey Sia,

    You can always see my website by clicking on my name in the comments I post here.

    Here’s the new website: It includes free worksheets to help you start mapping out the beliefs, memories, and emotions that are in the way of having what you want, so you can then release them.

    Hopefully Rori doesn’t mind me posting it here.


  145.  #145Daria on February 27, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Rori – fan! GREAT!! If you’re going out and dating other men, yes he can hang out on “the back of your horse” as you’re riding on to a great life. But! Don’t let him pull you back. Use the times he comes up in your thoughts to imagine him (yes this will seem a lil difficult and weird at first) to imagine him cheering you on to your NEW dates and supporting you.

  146.  #146Daria on February 27, 2010 at 9:36 am

    Mary –

    I feel frustrated because it seems to me you are asking the SAME QUESTION over and over. (unless you are not the same poster that asked this question 2 or 3 times in different ways)

    You’ve already received the answer to FOCUS ON YOU and Circular Date. Your husband is NOT ACTING IN AN ACCEPTABLE WAY TO YOU.

    NO, not all men will treat you bad.


    PLEASE GO OUT AND GET INVOLVED IN ACTIVITIES FOR YOU ONLY, AND FLIRT WITH MEN – THIS IS FOR YOU, so you can attract your husband back, if this is at all possible.

  147.  #147Daria on February 27, 2010 at 9:37 am

    Mary – If I remember correctly, you are not actually married to this man – … or again, that may be a different mary…

  148.  #148Daria on February 27, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Mary – I felt frustrated yes but I want to clarify. I feel frustrated because I feel bad for you and I want you to feel GOOD!… This situation with your man FEELS AWFUL to me and I feel FURIOUS at him reading about it.

    So even asking the same question is ok, but I feel frustrated and unheard a lil

  149.  #149marya s. on February 27, 2010 at 11:02 am

    Dear Daria
    Thank you for being straight.Apriciate this.Yes it is the same person,and i am not married to this man.Last time i toled him i do not want to be girlfriend and want us to marry,he said i can ask him everything but not mariage.
    So now,we are living togther again sand he continue what he calls free life and control over his life because he will not any woman to take control over him…..
    And yes it is dificult for me with circular dating,i feel not good to have near relation with other men and living in the same house with another man,…

    I can date myself,..yes,but i have done it for long time,go alone other places,…..

  150.  #150Jimmynguyen on March 3, 2010 at 12:21 am

    Thanks for your idea marya, it is great 🙂

  151.  #151Kelly on March 6, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Hello beautiful ladies and Rori… it’s been almost a year since I’ve visited this web site and I’ve missed it and all of you so much!
    I felt compelled to come back here because I’m in a serious “pickle” and most of it has to do with me… I take full responsibility.
    I met an amazing man in late November, it was love at first sight for both of us. I’ve been divorced for 11 years and I’ve had only one serious relationship since then and it was on and off for 5 years, I knew it wouldn’t last. So this man S. shows up and just knocks me off my feet. We’ve spent tons and tons of time together… talking about the fact that we’re soulmates (twin flames even…), he said he’ll never love anyone else and he wants to marry me, etc… and things have been quite blissful for the past 3 months until just a few days ago when I felt him begin to pull away (just a bit) emotionally, which has caused me to get fearful and inwardly defensive. Rejection is a HUGE issue with me and I usually defend myself by stoically clamming up then saying, “Fuck you…” as I walk away. I’m feeling so scared… I’m feeling scared that I’ve been doing everything wrong these past 3 months and now it’s coming back to bite me… I’m feeling afraid that he doesn’t respect me… I’m afraid of being alone… I’m feeling powerless and unsure as to what I need to do right now before I mess this beautiful relationship up. I haven’t mentioned any of this to him as of yet but it needs to come out! How much do I tell him or do I say nothing and just change my behavior? I want to be strong on the inside and soft on the outside…

    PLEASE HELP! What should I do?

  152.  #152Goddess Apriluv on April 13, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    When my former boyfriend bailed out on me after I had just moved in with him a week later he lost his job as a university professor. We had the “where is the relationship going talk” which was a big mistake and he told me he had changed his mind and didn’t need to be “that committed.” I had a problem with the statement he made: married or not, when a couple decides to build a life together, you should both be equally committed to the relationship. Was I more committed than he was? NO! He was never committed! I immediately packed up and moved out! Yes, the same day I packed up enough clothes for a couple of weeks and moved in with my daughter until I found a place of my own. I have myself a deadline; to be completely out within two weeks. I accomplished that goal. Less than two weeks later, my children and I, had a UHaul truck packed outside of his home loading up my belongings. That was the end of January. Now it is the month of April. I hear from him every now and then. He attempts to initiate sex and I refuse! I “draw and line in the sand” and each time he tried to intiate sex, I redraw the line that I had previously drawn. He then withdraws and I don’t hear from him. Recently, he texted me asking me if I wanted to go out to dinner on my birthday. I accepted the invitation. WIth stick in hand, I will draw another line in the sand if makes another attempt to steer me where I don’t want to go. However, if he attempts to bring us back together, it will all have to be his idea. I will “lean back” and let him spend his money on me; his unemployment funds 🙂 I guess it’s my way of getting back at him! I have had lot’s of time to reflect on our relationships and I have discovered through circuit dating, there are men out there that are more wonderful than he is! I have also discovered, I don’t want him as a life long partner and that he does not have the skills to “dance” in a healthy relationship. He will have to figure me out because I have gotten over him and moved on. I am dating a few very fabulous men and I have choices that are much better than him! As a matter of fact, a gentlement I met online a year ago, before the relationship I had ended in February is on his way to Las Vegas now! His plane will land at 4:10 this evening. He got his own hotel room and we will have a fabulous time getting to know one another. And yes, I have told him I am circuit dating and will continue to do so until I am the one who does the choosing. I have had two ask for a commitment however, I would like to give myself more time. In the meantime, I will keep my options open and continue to circuit date and heal! The best to you all! And thank you Rori! I’m out of the muck!

    Goddess Apriluv

  153.  #153Marie on April 21, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    I am having a very weak moment right now in my life. I am separated and have been seeing someone for 4 months who is also separated. It has been on again- off again for the last month or so.

    I have been over functioning quite a lot to keep this relationship together and I’m just exhausted with it.

    We have good days and bad days. Yesterday, I thought was a good day…but as usual it was me doing everything: I bought lunch, I drove him somewhere, and this has been my pattern. I’ve been the masculine energy..some people say I mother him. When we said goodbye he said I’ll call you later about tomorrow. Well, there was no call…. and no email or call today. He did say that today would be an extremely busy and stressful day for him, but still my feelings are hurt.

    I am trying to stay resolved about not calling him or emailing….but I am weakening. I keep having arguments with the voice in my head. One voice says screw him and the other voice says “he’s under stress with his work and ex, be compassionate…blah blah blah”

    Since I don’t have anyone to talk to for strength, I thought I’d post here.

    Please help me not contact him first.

  154.  #154Rori Raye on April 21, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Marie – Welcome, and I’d like to take your comment and jump off of it. What I’ll talk about is “addiction” – because that’s exactly what’s happening to you. Can you see that your instincts and all your patterns and habits – what’s driving you from inside – looks exactly like a “junkie”? You’ll take anything, be a doormat, be a nurse, do whatever it takes to get love – and when it’s clear that’s not working, he’s not giving you love anyway – you just work HARDER… Now – trying to stop cold turkey, and not call will bring up all kinds of trauma reactions – so be prepared. (Oh…the reason you’re bouncing to being furious with him and saying “screw you” is because you’re so angry with YOURSELF…the only question to ask is this one, to yourself….”Why am I here?”) Love, Rori

  155.  #155Marie on April 21, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    Thank you so much for answering. What you say gives me strength, but I am so upset with myself. I thought being kind and compassionate with him was a good thing. His ex has already actually called me his doormat and said I’m contributing to his bad behavior.

    It hurts even more because he never even asks me how my day goes.

    I guess to answer the question “why am I here” It’s because our relationship started out when we met in the gym. He became my personal trainer and I fell for him. I wanted to keep training with him as he has helped me feel much better about myself physically. I guess it’s time for a new trainer.

  156.  #156monica on July 31, 2010 at 9:22 am

    I was really angry with my husband when didnt keep his promise to me and he really dissappointed me and didnt live up to my expectations. And I frequently told him for almost a year now. Sometimes I told him in a very ladylike way and something I screamed at him like a hell demon. I even started throwing things at him. But ultimately when I realized that I couldnt shame him, anger him, make him step up, grow up, admit he was wrong, make him regret leaving. That I have a choice.. I could do stop investing someone who doesnt want me anymore. Screaming about how he broke his promise to me became unimportant. Because my screaming had an agenda…trying to change him. I will not invest anymore energy not (even the energy it takes to expand my lungs to scream at him) in a man who says he doesnt want me. Someone else will want me and my baby.

  157.  #157liz on August 9, 2010 at 9:14 am

    Monica…I was in a similar situation with a man I wasn’t married to and we had a baby boy. He didn’t want anything to do with our son and left us. Our son is now 15 and we are just fine. His father is bitter and angry (I know this because he told a friend of mine a couple of years ago)… He is Chinese from Malaysia…an only son whose parents neglected him. He came to America with big dreams and having a baby with a divorced woman who also had 2 other children was unspeakable to him. He lives in shame and has kept our son a secret from everyone. While he as honoring his parents who didn’t love him he was dishonoring his son. You can not force anyone to love you or your children. The man who was a martial artist and preached strength of character was not all that strong. He wasn’t able to give because he was so needy himself having been neglected all his life by his parents. Forgive your baby’s father, bless him and be grateful for your little blessing. My son has been a blessing to me and has true strength of character. At a time when I was so fearful of going at it alone, he gave me courage. Your baby’s love is all you need <3

  158.  #158Kels on August 25, 2010 at 12:49 am

    Hi Rori

    I new to your website and have purchased & read the ebook, but I would like your opinion of which programme would be best for me to purchase after I give you a brief of my situation.

    3mnths ago, my partner of 5yrs came to me stating that he wanted to break up & sell our house?
    He stated all this whilst he was gutt wrenchingly crying, after a whole day of this & trying to calm him & myself & talk to him, I suggest counselloring & medical advice, as he said he was having heart pulpations & felt like he was going to have a heart attack quite regularly didn’t understand what was going on? I has also givin my opinion that it may well be panic attacks.

    he then stated: ‘I’m going away for a couple of days to think’?

    He didn’t come back until a week later & the visit was short he was very shaky & talking fast & said he is just too stressed & feels like he is going to have a nervous breakdown & he feels like he can’t do anything right? (why because now I realise I was overfunctioning, so no wonder he felt that way).

    He stated over & over that he is so sorry & that he loves me so very much. (whilst kissing and holding me) but it’s over and that he would stay at a relatives for awhile.
    (This same senario happened twice, but on the second visit I said why are you kissing me? your confusing me? he responded ‘I’m sorry I don’t want to confuse you, but I do love you, I’ll always love you).

    He has lost his job since and has just now gained a new one, this has happened numourous times, not because he isn’t good at his position, which is managering multibillion modernisation projects, but because it is agency work & once a project is complete you move on to something else, which in the past hasn’t been a problem, but with the reccession alot of projects have been shelved, so the projects are far & few between. (This of course affects him but he deals with it by going to the pub with his boss).

    He is only 28yrs old 9yrs younger than I, however he is the most mature & sensitive man I have ever met & I believed to be my solemate. (Was I so wrong?)

    I think it’s been too much of a high postition too soon, but he is the type of man that knows whats best, so I can’t tell him this nor can anyone else or anything for that matter as he is a true scots & so set in his ways & very stubborn. (Something I mostly adore about him).

    I just never thought he was cable of leaving me or hurting me ever, certainly not like this without talking more & attempting to resolve things he won’t even give us another try or just have a trial break up, it’s just over.

    Everyone is in absolute shock….family & friends…..but most of all me, over the first 2months – I’ve asked various questions at different times and I get inconsitent answers? I’ve not really seen much of him because he has just closed up completely, like he won’t allow himself to come near me?

    He has stated some of the following at different times
    For one example; I asked how long have you been feeling this way? That you haven’t wanted to be with me or your unsure?

    1st time answer: 3weeks
    2nd time answer: 2yrs
    3rd time answer: 1yr
    4th time answer: I don’t know

    The last time I asked

    5th time answer: ‘I don’t know? Kelly it’s not like that, I just need more time’!

    Rori, I know that sounds bizzarre that I would ask this question so many times, but I had no warnings no idea he felt this way I nearly had a break down myself, I went into shock & then the grief hit so intensly as one minute he was there & then the next just gone & had totally closed me out I tried everything from heartfelt emails & texts to keeping away & giving him space. (One thing I realise now is I would always put him first and you think that that’s the right thing to do, but after reading your ebook how wrong have I been).

    If & when I did get to talk to him over the phone I seemed to make sense to him at some points and he was coming back to me, then he would just shut off again, he has said he’d seek medical advise 4 times now & then refused…. He say’s he’s not happy & that I’m not happy and that I put in 70% of the relationship and he only puts in 30% & thats not right that he doesn’t want it to be that way & that we are not even having sex?

    Rori, the reason we weren’t having sex is because I tried to talk to him about him working so much & the only time he wanted sex it felt was when he needed it, I told him I need to have sex more often & with a little bit more passion, he had completely ignored me didn’t even answer me, so I sort of went on sex strike & then autopilot, but it hadn’t been for long,,,,, Yes, now I know that was the worst thing I could have done, but I felt I was at my wits end, I was so stressed out too, both our jobs are demanding and we both start our days at 5am and then we mostly don’t get home until after 8pm if we are lucky, we have both been in & out of physio with muscle problems, stress obviously, never any time for excercise during the week.

    He now has anger & an attitude which he has never had before, which I think must be at himself for feeling this way???
    I have not seen him like this ever and I now haven’t seen or spoken to him for a month.

    It’s just left it at this, I tried to text him a feeling message to express how hurt I was, but all I got back was ‘I know you are hurting, kelly’.

    Rori I don’t know if I should just let it end like this or what to do, it’s all so wrong I can’t bear it, shall I keep the distance or shall I try to talk to him again? but I don’t think I’m strong enough to be honest, as he is just so ice cold & hard & not the person I know.

    I sort the doctors within the 2nd week of all of this for myself & have been prescribed medication & see a counsellor, somehow I’ve managed to keep going to work I’ve also in the last month been going to Bikram yoga everyday (Hot Yoga-90mins sessions) Which is keeping me as strong & focussed as possible through all this, (I highly recommend this to anyone going through any kind of break up).

    Although I’m still hurting & so very confused, I’ve not had much anger when it does come it’s gone before it gets a grip, my counsellor finds this strange.

    Her reasons are that this was premeditated & he has not cared for you through this & he knows what he has done, which I totally can see and I should be angry, I guess, but I’m doing my best to deal with all this and I don’t wish to carry anger around with me, even before I read your ebook I was on the path of just let go, if it’s meant to be it will be, he obviously needs time out…. but that is also so hard with some of the things he has said & it really is like he doesn’t care. I just keep telling myself over & over that it’s over, if it’s not then that will be a nice surprise, but it’s the only way I can survive, I can’t afford to have hope here, he has made it clear & I don’t wish to be with someone that can cause so much pain to the person they are supposed to love, but if he has problems but won’t deal with them & has shut me out what can I do?

    Rori I do love this man, but I’m so unsure of everything that I feel, I went through the self blame stage but to me no one is to blame things can be worked out but both have to want it & he doesn’t seem too, although I have heard recently he is saying maybe he made a mistake, I don’t undersand why he can’t come & talk to me??? (Although he has also stated through all this that he is not a talker & hasn’t talk in the last 5yrs & is not about to start now’.

    What kind of a statement is that? I don’t know who this person is anymore? Unless the old person comes back I don’t think I want this person? That’s if I even have that option? I just have never been so unsure of what to do, as he is just so unpredicable is seems, even if I want to reconnect how can I when things are so distant & strange?

    I can’t believe he has done what he has done, but I guess I didn’t know all the other thoughts were going on in his head? How was I supposed to if he doesn’t talk to me? I’ve never pushed him to talk, I’ve never pushed him to do anything, never stopped him from doing anything or being who he is.

    Rori, any guidance here would be appreciated as I’m only just coping I feel dipleted & like I will never trust him or any man ever again?


  159.  #159Rori Raye on August 25, 2010 at 9:39 am

    Kelly, Welcome, and please stay in contact here – we’ll support you continually to help…5 years is a long time to suddenly experience heartache and breakup – and yet, many of us have suffered that – and here it is, happening to you. THE ONLY way to renew yourself, and even create the POTENTIAL to reconnect with this man – is to walk away 100%. I believe your counselor will back me up here. Take him off facebook friends, do not call no matter what – if he texts or emails, say simply — you’re healing and need some space….then – you must Circular Date –I mean actually date. Put yourself now, today, on and all online sites, get some great pictures – force yourself to DO what you need to get out there and meet and flirt with men. I don’t care if you cry on dates, and every time you look at another man. Just do it. You will feel grief – there’s no getting around it – and I don’t want you to wallow in it. Go see Eat, Pray, Love and see if you can create a sacred space for yourself to meditate and let go of as much of your overfunctioning and DOING as possible, without traveling – and if traveling feels like it would help, do that. As you use my Tools and shift your own energy – everything will change for you….Love, Rori

  160.  #160Kels on August 25, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Hi Rori

    Thank you so much for your advice Rori, just in time as I was about to send him an email that I have been collating for the past week, so now I won’t & I will walk away 100%. (Yes, my counsellor would agree with you… lol).

    But I’m not sure about the dating? Because would that not be a bad thing, as I’m far from wishing to be anywhere near a man in that way, I had someone ask me out recently and texting me all the time, even though he knew my situation he still persude me and it drove me mad, I had to politely tell him more than twice that I’m in my own headspace right now and I’m not interested.
    I don’t wish to be in that situation again so soon and it would be worse if I’m the one looking and excepting dates wouldn’t it?

    Anyhow, Rori thank you for your support it’s just what I need right now, because sometimes lately I’m just so scared of myself and the negative thoughts, even though I’m trying so damn hard to stay focussed and stay positive, I will do my best NOT to wallow in it, even though that’s exactly where I’am right now…

    I’m currently living in a very small single room in a not so nice share house so this I do not think is helping, as I left the house so that he could have space to think… but I have started to look for a bedsit or studio flat here in london, (I’m actually an Australian & also contemplating going back to Oz, but I’ve a really good job & so that would be hard to leave & then find another one again back home but the friends and sunshine is very tempting, But my job it’s my only rock right now, although it’s far from concrete with the recession).
    But once I get my own space I think I’ll be better & yes I will defiantly be mediating everyday as well as my Bikram Yoga sessions.

    I will also read through the other blogs on your site for strength wisdom and understanding from yourself and other great inspirational women.

    Rori, which of your programmes do you suggest would be best for me? (Please also not I’m not really good at flirting… lol).

    Yours Sincerely


  161.  #161Carmela on December 14, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    Ahhh. I was in an ugly feeling place today. Still not doing the bet job of catching myself. But I will keep working on it. Decided to continue to put myself out there, not to wait around. But I still have some unresolved feelings and I was thinking of calling to get “closure.” I like that last scenario too, of the new man getting my heart and taking good care of it and giving me his heart. So I feel a hair better and I won’t call for closure, it never goes like you see it in your mind. Guys never say what you think they will say and you end up feeling even more hurt and confused so, I will be skipping that activity. Thanks so very much, Rori.

  162.  #162Kirby on April 29, 2012 at 6:51 am

    Wow! Just what I needed to read. I have not spoken to my boy friend in a week and was going to call him for closure. For what the fact we have not spoken is closure enough!

  163.  #163Tess on August 17, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    This is such an insight 🙂 “Instead of running after the man with my heart tucked under his arm – my heart that he doesn’t want…I would choose for you, if I could, that a new man show up who wants your heart, wants to care for it and water it and cherish it, and wants to give you his.”

  164.  #164Tess on August 17, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    For Kels…5 years is a long time and unless you want to waste more time on this guy then you lose valuable precious time…he is not worth it so move on and love yourself…if you must know I have been with a man for almost 3 years and yes its not easy breaking up…but it is what it is…IT HAPPENS…makes us confused since we have given a part us ourselves to someone who in the end just trampled our hearts…but nothing is ever guaranteed so move on and love yourself more than ever and you will see that change will come slowly but surely…its a process so be patient and INVEST in yourself…looking good is the greatest revenge!!!