He Fell For a Stripper – and She Wants Him Back

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Okay – here’s a letter from Sally – actually, a whole conversation between us that at first seems like such an EXTREME situation we can’t even relate.

But – actually – it’s so totally commonplace, it’s happening all over the news all the time (Sandra Bullock, Elin Woods…), it’s happening on a great TV show – “The Good Wife,” and it’s happening to a much smaller degree with so many women who write me…It’s like being “sucked into the vortex” so I got Sally to agree to let me post it here for us to work with (there was a lot of back and forth writing, and a lot of new things came out as Sally wrote back to me, so I’m going to break this post into “parts”):

“Hi Rori:

I get your e-mail letters all the time, and have gained much from reading them.  Today I got the Toxic Man letter.

Question:  If you’ve been married for 20 years and have kids, (like me—and you)….and your husband has been having an affair for 2 years, still…..do you think this would be a “Toxic Husband” and one you should leave for good??????

This is MY dilemma.  My husband has been entangled and his heart has become divided over another woman, (a stripper) nonetheless.  I don’t know what to do.  He told me several times it’s “over” but then lied and deceived me over and over and I found out it was still continuing.

What would your advice be at this point?  I am so unhappy, helpless and miserable and I have no job, but am seeking one.  Have been a stay at home mom for many years.

Please write me back personally if possible,  and do not post this on your blog. I would really appreciate your advice.  What would you do? Sincerely, Sally”

My answer:

Sally – your letter is so powerful, I wish you’d let me post it anonymously on the blog…and I never can answer personally because of the time, so I’ll just give you a taste of what I’ll say if you let me post:

This is what is happening out there – Governor Spitzer – other politicians, celebrities, the husband in “The Good Wife” (love the show) on TV.

The thing here is – why a stripper? Why a hooker? And there are more answers than you can imagine.

First, obvious answer is sex. Hotness. Easy sex, no emotional requirements as far as he can tell.

To many, many men – sex is completely compartmentalized. Sex alone has absolutely nothing to do with “love.” They can have sex with “anything” or “anyone” and it’s just about “sex.”

We’ve all met one of these men – perhaps we’re involved with one and don’t even know?

And – weirdly – we’re comfortable and okay and can understand this one. We JUDGE a man for this – but we “get” it. It’s part of what we’ve ‘been told” about men.

But this doesn’t fit the bill with your husband – because he actually “fell” for this woman. (And we don’t even know if this is a “relationship” – or if he’s some sort of “client” to her.)

It’s really, really hard to deal with the reality here – that this “thing” is about more than sex. We just can’t get our heads around how a “stripper” – someone we so look down on we don’t even think of her in the same breath as “relationship” or “marriage” material. We just don’t relate to her at all.

We can understand the “sex” thing – especially if sex has been a problem in our relationship or marriage. If it’s not fulfilling, not frequent, not anticipated, not “hot.”

But we don’t understand how he could CHOOSE that, in an emotional way – over US. (I mean – why would he get so involved with a woman over sex – when he might as well just have sex with a bunch of women.

I mean – if he’s a cheater, he’s a cheater, what difference would it make to him how many women he had sex with besides you? Especially if it’s a woman who gets paid to provide different aspects of sex (and don’t forget – a man may be into S&M, or all kinds of kinky – and not-even-requiring-intercourse-kinky – sex that you and he may have never even touched on….) – you’d think it would be easy for him to find.

But – no. A cheating man OFTEN gets very, very ATTACHED to a woman he’s having sex with. It’s personal.

Sally – You have two choices here: One – to decide that you could never be with a man who has betrayed you, that you’ve lost feeling for him.

That he’s immature and just fell into something icky and unlike what you can bounce back from, and move on.

Or – if you want him back – you’re going to have to look at your marriage and yourself , and the degree of “hotness” there – and whether or not you want to find out what this woman gives him that is not in your nature to provide – and if you even WANT to provide that for him.

If your marriage lost that, and became “companionly,” with sex an occasional thing done with “friendliness” and “comfortableness” – then you have your answer. If that spark is gone – then you can either work to get it back – or you can move on.

If you think you can get it back, or you’re willing to wait until this runs its course and he’s too old to want that level of “hotness” and “heat” – as Bachelor Jake puts it – in his life – then you pretty much STILL have to move on.

You STILL have to get a life, DATE even, and fulfill yourself as if he weren’t in the picture – because when your whole life is centered around a man – you just completely LOSE your appeal and attractiveness.

You still – and MUST – become more independent in ALL areas. Get a job, or if you don’t need the money – volunteer. Get a life – feel more independent and attractive.

If it’s not “sex” – then it might be something emotional that’s missing – some connection.  And I know, for me – NO AMOUNT OF LOGIC, or “family” or ANYTHING would be enough for ME to take a man back who’s behaved as this man had…it would not be worth the “work” for this one man.

There are too many wonderful, kind, generous, loyal men out there who are dying to be with a lovely, kind, sexual, sensual, sweet, good woman to waste time with a man who’s hurt you so much.

So – the one thing you CAN’T LOSE if you do is get out there and date. Circular Date.

And see what happens.  Love, Rori

Sally wrote back – and I’m going to post it as “Sally’s Story – Part II”


  1.  #1Tina on March 26, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    I want a happy ending for you Sally, without this man!

  2.  #2Orna Walters on March 26, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    This is only my opinion, and I’ll say it here:

    Once a cheater always a cheater.

    I mean within that relationship. If a man cheats on you, he will do it again.

    If that man goes and gets help, and really does the work to transform, its possible for him to be faithful to ANOTHER woman.

    I know it may sound harsh. Its what I know from my clients – the female and the male clients.

    I’m with you, Rori, it would not be worth the “work” and if I was going to work that hard it would be for ME and me alone and I’d go find someone who treats me like the Goddess that I am.

    Sending you love, Sally. Love yourself. Be kind with yourself. <3

    Big Hug,

  3.  #3Daria on March 26, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    Hmm Orna – sounds like a limiting belief big time.

  4.  #4Orna Walters on March 26, 2010 at 9:23 pm


    I appreciate that is how you see it, however, its the reality that I have seen day-in-day-out for years with my clients.

    In order to be able to coach with integrity I must take in what I have seen, heard and experienced that is what makes me a good coach.

    This belief – limiting as you may see it – is not from my personal experience, as I’ve never had someone cheat on me.

    Big Hug,

  5.  #5Orna Walters on March 26, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    Ah! Actually, I did have a bf cheat on me, but I didn’t find out until it was already over.

    I’m always up for being surprised.

    I truly wish to empower women to feel their own worth. We need not settle. When you look through time it was not that long ago women were considered property. Marriage vows ended with “Man and Wife.” We’ve come a long way in many arenas and my desire is to truly support men and women in creating a True Spiritual Partnership.

    That message will resonate with some, and not with others and I’m perfectly okay with that.


  6.  #6Orna Walters on March 26, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    Oh, and I actually work with same sex couples too, so anyone who desires a True Spiritual Partnership.


  7.  #7Maria on March 27, 2010 at 1:17 am

    Hm, l think that in this case he is really missing something in his marriage, but thats not the point. The point is that striptease or not, this woman has some kind of hotness about her (naturally) and this is where l always disagree, when l hear about “lower education level” or “lower position” – it is about the person. It does matter who you are in some point, but your degree of education and position in some point wont matter, when it comes to attraction.
    Thats just my opinion, of course. But lm willing to hear more.

  8.  #8Honey on March 27, 2010 at 1:39 am

    Hellooo! – the answer we all know – the stripper is vulnerable….that’s the hotness factor. Not just that, she’s comfortable with her body around men. The fact that she’s looked down apon by other women makes her the sexy lil underdog. Having said that…we should take our focus off them completely and care only about Sally. Deep down Sally has made her decision already and whatever it will be painful and scary and she will need to be very brave and have support. She will love herself through this yuck situation and come out shining and happy

  9.  #9Rachel on March 27, 2010 at 4:10 am

    I disagree – the stripper is an easy way out, it’s only sex right? He can love his wife, but there is something missing – the stripper relieves something but he compartmentalises it so that he can continue to love his wife. Only in this case he’s not compartmentalising well enough and has started to imagine a relationship with this woman – just like we create a relationship that isn’t really there.

    I can relate to this, I only discovered Rori after my husband of nearly 18 years started chatting to another woman on the other side of the world via Skype and began an intimate relationship with her (weird over Skype I know, but hey that’s the human condition!). He’s still working through the fact that he never thought he was one of ‘those men’ – up until that point he’d been completely loyal and dependable.

    I’ve got Rori’s programme ‘reconnect your relationship’ and am trying to work through it. I was so completely overfunctioning, it’s a wonder he stuck around for 18 years before doing what he did!

    Please don’t think I’m saying it was all my fault – I’m not, but he was human and he loves and wants to be with me. The other woman is out of the picture and we are working on us, and most importantly of all I’m starting to enjoy my life and not over analyse what he’s doing or thinking – I’ll worry about me & if we work out great, if we don’t I at least now know I’m not going to fall apart or disappear into an abyss of melancholy.

    Sally definitely needs to concentrate on getting herself back first before she stands a hope in hell of reconnecting with her husband.

  10.  #10Triza on March 27, 2010 at 4:46 am

    This isa great post!
    I was thinking about this very same thing the other day.O r maybe just wondering why men go for strippers and some even end up having relationships with them.These men sacrifise so much just for what?and what makes these women so attractive that a man is willing to sacrifise his marriage?
    For me i feel that this is a great opportunity for Sally to really heal herself and get her power back and from what i’ve worked with Rori’s tool the woman i am now is more confident of herself and intouch with who i really i am.
    From my experience the hardest part has been to take responsibility for my situation.I always felt that Life was unfair and i was helpless and not good enough.In trying to make things right i also felt i wasn’t improving fast enough and sometimes i got sucked back in my old patterns…..
    However i am learning to love everything that is coming up and using it to guide me to parts of me that need healing.Baby steps and circular dating helps me experiiment on different areas of my life.
    I love and accept me no matter what…And slowly i am believing…no….i know that i am a beautiful sexy, attractive woman blessed with a wonderful life..

  11.  #11Beth on March 27, 2010 at 5:54 am

    Sally, I wish you love, happiness, and peace as you learn to take care of you 🙂

    Triza, Thank you! I needed to hear this today!!

    “i also felt i wasn’t improving fast enough and sometimes i got sucked back in my old patterns…..
    However i am learning to love everything that is coming up and using it to guide me to parts of me that need healing.
    I love and accept me no matter what…And slowly i am believing…no….i know that i am a beautiful sexy, attractive woman blessed with a wonderful life..”

    The transition I’m going through will be worth any discomfort and pain I might encounter along the way because I am getting to know, love, and accept myself!

  12.  #12Lori on March 27, 2010 at 6:42 am

    I feel like part of the stripper appeal to a man is not that she’s easy, but the opposite-he has to compete with so many other men for her. Basically, she is “circular dating” right in front of him. She may be someone women like us don’t approve of, but think about it-her JOB is to act like a rock star and make as many men as possible want her. The man who “gets” to date her rather than just be one of the hundreds who only get to look at her probably feels like he is special in some way and has been chosen over other men.

    The way I see it, a stripper is practicing the same tools all of us are every single day. Except with her clothes off. : )

  13.  #13Lori on March 27, 2010 at 6:52 am

    In fact, now that I think about it, I know a stripper who told me once that she can get a different man to pay her car payment every month (and she drives a Jag!) and NOT have sex with any of them!!

    Not much different than me getting gift cards and cell phones etc from my CD guys except I keep my clothes on LOL.

    I’m thinking that “we” look down on them for taking off their clothes for money, but if you really think about it, many of them are a in a way a certain type of siren for some men.

  14.  #14Lori on March 27, 2010 at 7:08 am

    So I’m thinking that maybe Sally shouldn’t approach it as her husband being involved with a stripper any differently than if he was involved with a librarian. The fact is, he cheated, and it really doesn’t matter who he cheated with. I don’t feel like she would be in any less pain right now if he had cheated with a librarian.

    The stripper I know is a single mom of 3 kids and she works as a stripper so that she can put her kids in private school. I don’t know much about her personal life, but she seems pretty normal to me in every other way. I will say that in the cold light of day she’s not any prettier or more exotic looking than any other late 30’s single mom I know, but she does have a siren like confidence about her which I’m sure comes from the adulation of so many men at work at night.

    My ex husband cheated on me, and I just couldn’t bring myself to stay with him after that. I personally feel that once trust is gone, it’s gone. It’s not about attraction here. OF COURSE most men are going to be sexually attracted to strippers. That’s the whole idea! A STRONG man would be able to watch a stripper, acknowledge his sexual attraction for her, NOT ACT ON IT, and then go home and make love to his wife because he loves her and is committed to her. Sally’s husband is a WEAK man and if I were Sally, I’d leave this weak man behind and go out and look for a man who is strong enough to give me the loving, truly committed relationship I want and deserve.

  15.  #15Honey on March 27, 2010 at 7:12 am

    I agree with Lori. Also, many woman feel liberated when they take pole dancing classes 🙂

  16.  #16Triza on March 27, 2010 at 8:33 am

    I agree with your post.I’ve also been wondering alot about the ‘other” Woman and why they appeal so much to men…..
    I feel bad for Sally,but life has taught me that the challanges that come to my life are to help me dicover my true nature and and what i really i am is beautiful and attractive and i feel the same is for sally…To me it feels like the universe calling on us women to uncover the true beauty that is within us..
    It hasn’t happened overnight for me,but i love getting to know and love this me that i am each day..

  17.  #17Soignée on March 27, 2010 at 8:42 am

    Lori, I do agree with you. the stripper, lap-dancer women they are some kind of sirens to men, because they have a great self-confidence and they make men work hard for them. If the man wants them, they can ask everything for them, also a car payment etc. I know some of the ladies who worked in such night clubs and the men gave them like a present the houses!! Really!! They bought houses, cars for such kind of women. Why? Because they can ask and they believe they deserve the best.
    They are demanding women, very demanding, requiring, they are not doormaty good-women, they ask and ask. They are bitchy, they can create some magic: they are not boring for men, they keep them guessing it the men can have them or not. They are not too available. That’s why, the man working for her attention, falls completely in love with her.

  18.  #18Turtle Girl on March 27, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Cheaters cheat. Period. It mattes not who with. On some level they make a decision than their needs are paramount and anyone else they may be hurting do not matter. It is a betrayal at the deepest level and I agree with Orna, you can not come back from it.

    Maybe possible to be with another and not cheat later, if you have done the inner work as to why your self esteem is so low you need that kind of attention from another with a wife/husband in the background. It is not about them, it is about you-if you are a cheater-Why? Need the drama? Hate women or men? Need the thrill, kicks, excitement, attention? Secretly “getting back at” your spouse because of something that happened or did not happen. In my book there is always something underneath going on and that’s what has to be looked at.

    Having said all of that I would never stay with a cheater. Not possible to ever have a good relationship because trust at the deepest level has been broken. But that’s just me. I have heard of people doing it.

  19.  #19Soignée on March 27, 2010 at 8:55 am

    And Lori, it is true, that the men who are attracted to the stripper women, they have to compete with a lot of other men, this keeps them guessing, this makes the lady attractive because of so many men to want her. And this gives the men their play- to work hard for her.
    So why is circular dating so important!!! It makes the lady hard to get.
    If the woman is in a stable relationship and gives the man no challenge (no requirements, does not ask anything for her, does not demand), she gets boring, he stops working for her to get her attention.

    So why every changement of the routine make the man guess, and keeps his attention. Today she is a sweet cat, tomorrow she can be sad and vulnerable, the next day she is bitchy, the day after she is the happiest person on the planet, today she is strong, tomorrow she is weak. It is challenging.

  20.  #20Lucy on March 27, 2010 at 10:11 am

    Orna- What are your thoughts on WHY men can be faithful to a new woman, but not to the one they cheated on even if they do the work to change?

  21.  #21Rori Raye on March 27, 2010 at 10:20 am

    Turtle Girl, and all around the “cheater” thing – if we do a “turnaround” (like Byron Katie, I’ll do some posts about her Work later) – if you say “he’s a cheater” – you would turn it around to say “I’m a cheater.” So – who are you cheating? You, of course. And him, too – you are cheating him out of…what? Perhaps the real you, your real feelings, your full self-esteem and sense of honor for yourself? We are so always cheating ourselves out of what we truly want and deserve…Love, Rori

  22.  #22Lori on March 27, 2010 at 10:41 am


    This is so true. My CD guys stand up and take notice more when I’m sad, mad, frustrated etc, than when they call and I say I’m just “fine”. I feel like they are so used to calling women who just say they are fine when they’re not, that it really strikes a note with them when a woman is honest about how she really feels that day, even if it’s negative. I feel like demanding women like strippers do this.

    I have kind of a stalkerish guy bothering me at work , and when he shows up he really sucks the positive energy out of me. He showed up the other day and I was just in a terrible mood. A couple of my CD guys called and when they asked how I was and how my day was, instead of saying “fine” I said “I feel nervous and uncomfortable about this man bothering me at work. I also feel angry that he has taken my good mood and turned it to bad and I feel drained like he took my energy. I would feel so good and safe if I had a big strong man to hold me and protect me.” That’s really how I feel, but in the past I never would have admitted that to a man I was only dating casually. I would’ve said “fine” in order not to scare them off.

    But oh, how they respond to that so much more than “fine”. It triggers some kind of wanting to be a knight in shining armor for me and they all offer to come take care of me or protect me from the bad man.

    I feel like I’m finally starting to get it. If it works, it will be worth all of the yuckiness I’ve had to wade through to get there.

  23.  #23Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 10:41 am

    Hi Ladies. This is Sally. Thank you all for your wonderful comments. I have been yo-yo-ing now for a couple years, ever since i discovered his cheating. We have been apart 4 separate times, every time he said it was “over” and then i discovered more cheating. I feel the main reasons i choose to stay with him and try again, is that i do not believe in divorce, and breaking the covenant i made before God, most importantly, breaking our family apart with our children being affected for life, then also because i have no means of supporting myself (very important). Also because of course i do love my husband still. However, now that we are working on another reconciliation and in counseling, and he has asked me for forgiveness and telling me he was foolish, it was a mistake, it wasn’t love, etc., I do feel if it happens again, I could not try again. I would have reached my limit.

    As far as “why” my husband cheated, I believe it was a total mid-life crisis. Our marriage was always a good one, always very sexual, fun, etc., he was my best friend too. A mid life crisis for him though, one I hope he is coming out of. He says he is committed to me, and that he in person, “called it off with the stripper for good”. Time will tell. I am working on coming out of my feelings of being a doormat somewhat, and really do want to empower myself and heal and become confident again. I am looking for a job, and learning much about myself. Once I have one I plan on buying Rori’s materials for sure. It has been the hardest thing ever for me to go through, but hopefully a growing experience, and one my husband and I can look back on one day, knowing we came through it OK, and stronger and more in love. Thank you all again for your wonderful responses.

    I know what you mean about how “these types of women” get men to buy them just about anything…..They’re sick and manipulative, and women with very very low self-esteem. They use men, like men use them. Sad. I don’t think they’re sirens at all. They’re pitiful beyond belief, IMO. A siren can be a siren, but in my view, a siren is not such without class, integrity, and decency

    I look forward to reading more of your comments.

    ~Sally Anne~

  24.  #24Siena on March 27, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Wow, Rori – that turnaround just clicked something inside into place for me! I’ve always been afraid that I would end up with a cheater and be powerless to stop it, and end up miserable, etc. etc.. But when I do the turnaround, what you say is so much more true! And THAT’s empowering, because I have total control over myself! Thank you thank you thank you!!!

  25.  #25Daria on March 27, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Ouch I feel so angry. I feel angry at the idea of blaming the other woman and that she’s not a siren cuz she’s “low class”


    I feel furious.

    yes i understand people are feeling triggered AND well the way to heal is to keep it real

    and look at ourselves

    yes this woman may have low self esteem well she’s still a siren

    what about the self esteem of the woman who puts another woman down



  26.  #26Daria on March 27, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    Yeah the comments were actually PRAISING this quality in the strippers.

    UFFFF. Feeling shaky. FUck i feel angry. I feel like attackingggggg

  27.  #27Daria on March 27, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    If you trust your dreams half as much as you doubt them, you would get everything you want.

    – Mama Gena

  28.  #28Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    I guess the other word for a siren who’s a stripper/taking men’s money for sexual favors could be S L U T, or W H O R E. That could be a siren of a sort I guess. To me, though, when I think about a real “siren”, as Rori speaks of here, in my view, it is a woman who is strong, independent, charming, intelligent, yet DECENT and moral, who still has some scruples, not a sleeze. I feel there is a difference. The modern siren, I don’t think means loose woman. That to me, is NOT sexy.

  29.  #29Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    “We are so always cheating ourselves out of what we want and deserve” Rori said.

    Quite true a lot of times Rori, I can relate deeply to this, but then again, life often times, and marriage, and deep relationships are so much more about only “what we deserve”. Life can be unfair. Most of us probably deserve much more than we have. Yes. Granted. What about commitment? I ask? Isn’t life about more than just “I deserve to be happy”?

    I think it is. It’s also about sacrifice for the greater good, the greater good of perhaps our children, our commitments, etc. And it might involve some suffering along the way. What do you think?

  30.  #30youdontwannakno on March 27, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Wow. This conversation really angers me.

    My daughter is a “stripper”. She’s also happily married. In our state, physical contact is forbidden in strip clubs, so what she does is dances and talks to men. Sometimes she plays pool with them. The women are not allowed to date the men or give them their numbers, etc., and they have bouncers who walk them to their cars and make sure they’re safe.

    Stripper does NOT equal hooker!

    These men give her hundreds of dollars a night for the chance to watch her dance or sit and talk with her. It’s sort of sad, really, you gotta wonder why they can’t find a woman who they can talk to at home.

    The reason the discussion makes me angry is that my daughter is bright, athletic, and has the full permission of her husband to have this job, yet to all of you she’s just a “low-class slut” who’s out to steal your men.

    Projection much?

  31.  #31Orna Walters on March 27, 2010 at 2:58 pm


    I think that people CAN CHANGE. I think it takes a lot of work. I believe in the best in people. I utilize a scientific process where I can literally see who a person is at their highest and best self – their highest potential. I want to believe there is a path for someone to take that road.

    I believe that people come into our lives for a myriad of reasons. That saying: a reason, a season, or a lifetime. So I do think its possible for someone to move forward on their path but often times we’ll need to change WHO we spend our time with in order to have that transformation. This is how and why our outside world shifts when we do inner work.

    I hope that answers your questions as to *WHY.*

    I believe we are complex beings, and this me trying to take something complex that would really require a conversation, and explain here in a few paragraphs. If you have more specific questions for me, I’ll do my best to answer them here. 🙂

    Big Hug,

  32.  #32S. on March 27, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    I don’t think it’s helpful to place the blame or anger on the stripper (though I do understand the temptation; for one thing, it’s safer emotionally). I don’t know her, or the situation; perhaps she’s a truly terrible person. Or maybe she knew nothing of your husband’s marital status. It doesn’t matter. HE IS THE ONE WHO CHEATED. Not her. He is the one who promised to love and cherish and honor you forever. He broke those promises, and you are letting him off the hook by displacing your anger onto this other woman. Direct your anger at its proper source, the man who failed you.

    I’m not sure about the “once a cheater, always a cheater” theme; I believe in second chances, and only you can decide whether your marriage is able to truly be salvaged. But ask yourself whether you believe in fourth and fifth chances. And think about what your relationship is teaching your children about what a loving marriage is. Maybe they are fooled, but I would guess no. Not only do you deserve honesty and respect from your husband, but your children deserve a mother who knows how to stand up for herself and for them, and who can work to take care of them, no matter how difficult it may be.

  33.  #33Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    Dear Orna:

    Aren’;t you the therapist? Forgive me if I am mistaken though. If you are, I think you said, “once a cheater always a cheater” from your experience anyway as a therapist. Gosh. This is hard. So hard! I hope it’s not this way for my husband Orna. But I’d like to say I think (hope) we have one huge thing on our side, and that is that we are both Christians, and follow the Bible, and God’s way, laws, love, and plan for life. I think we both believe in God’s forgiveness and in the marriage covenant, being eternal, and a symbol of God’s covenant to us, his people, everlasting. I feel we also both believe in commitment, and in the union between a man and woman for life. We both come from Christian families with parents married over 50 years now. I dunno for sure, as every person has free will and free choice, I do, my husband does, etc. If he wanted to leave me for another woman, he could, and i would not have anything to say about it, but he says he doesn’t, that he loves me, believes in our commitment and “made a mistake”. I do find this hard to believe at times, as he deliberately lied and deceived me so many times, like the boy crying wolf….lol. I do know too though, our human nature without God can be most sinful, and corrupt. I feel man without God is merely a shell, out to make ourselves happy, without narely a thought to anything else/anyone else. I feel this wordly view is warped. This is my view only of course, and I do respect others’ views of course.
    Thank you for listening all.

  34.  #34Orna Walters on March 27, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    I really love the “turnaround.”

    I’ve made mention here that I have been the other woman. I had an affair with a married man for years. So as the “Cheat-ee” I was cheating myself. Cheating myself of having a real intimate relationship. Cheating myself from the opportunity to invest fully. Cheating myself by accepting sex/infatuation/obsession/fill in the blank, for Love.

    Clearly my self-esteem was LOW, so low it was non-existent. I was willing to accept the tiniest of “crumbs” (as Rori often says here).

    In other areas of my life I didn’t have these issues. With work, school, etc. I valued me. When it came to my heart – my relationships with men – I didn’t value myself at all, it was like I was two different people.

    I had to rectify this inside of me.

    How we value ourselves goes hand in hand with what we believe we deserve which is equal to what we allow ourselves to RECEIVE. We’re talking about love here, but it could be health, it could be wealth – anything really, because everything is energy.

    So the process of the inner work is to raise the level that we value ourselves. This will increase what we believe we deserve, and we open up to RECEIVE all that we desire.

    Ultimately, we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have. The stripper, the librarian, you, me, all the men out there – ALL OF US!

    What we individually have is choice. We can decide what we will put up with, or not. Who we spend our time with, or not. How we feel about any of the events in our lives – all a CHOICE.

    I love how Daria will simply list a bunch of feeling statements here. Pick a thread, and she’s on there: ‘I feel ________.’ Brava!

    In the moment we feel our feelings and it seems there is no choice. We feel it and BAM! There it is.

    So now look back – TURNAROUND. What do you feel now? Whatever meaning you give to that event – it is a choice.

    The point of power is always in the present moment. Choose wisely.

    Big Hug,

  35.  #35Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    Dear “S”

    Believe me, I hold no personal resentment towards this “stripper gal”. I actually feel sorry for her. We’ve even spoken several times, although I did tell her to stop texting or calling my husband please, who is a married man of over 20 years and we have a family.!!!!! Of course she pays no attention as he’s been a good customer, and even bought her a cell phone refilling it with his families’ money for 2 years!!!!! This alone, would be quite enough all my friends and family say, to say “adios”. I put 90% of the blame on my weak husband, who salivates at porn and obviously has at nudie bars, which is gross enough.

    As far as my hurt and broken heart, it would not have mattered if she was a librarian, as someone said.

  36.  #36Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Wow Orna: This took a lot for you to mention this on here, and I admire you for being open to even do so. Thank you Orna and I appreciate you.
    We all live and learn don’t we?

    My best friend for 30 years now has always been involved too with “married men”—attorneys, like her. I don’t understand it. How she could cheat on those men’s wives, putting herself in their place. This I cannot get. But I do have sympathy as we all have our problems, maybe some even retreating back into our childhoods even. Every person is so very complex, but it’s a comfort to know God loves us all.

  37.  #37S. on March 27, 2010 at 3:34 pm


    I actually hit “submit” too quickly, before I got a chance to say that no matter how the cheating came about and who the other woman is, it’s still an unbelievably hurtful thing for you, and I understand that completely. Your plan that you talked about upthread—working to make yourself happy and confident, seeking a job, getting up off the floor (as you said, about not being a ‘doormat’)—these things are good and healthy for you and your family, no matter what you decide about your marriage, and I wish you the best and believe 100% that you can do it. It sounds like you have a lot of caring friends and family who will support you too, and in that you are a lucky woman.

  38.  #38Orna Walters on March 27, 2010 at 3:51 pm


    I’m a coach – A Relationship Coach, a Life Coach. I do apologize if what I said sounded harsh.

    Rather than looking at it from the perspective of your husband – and who he is, who he may be capable of being, etc. As I do with my clients – let’s keep the focus on You.

    You’ve been in this marriage, and want to honor the commitment that you made – which I truly respect and honor.

    My question for you is: At all costs? Do you honor your marriage vows above EVERYTHING else?

    What about YOU?

    In order to love another, do you agree that you must love yourself first?

    What about respect? In order to respect another, do we not have to above all else respect ourselves?

    What do you want your children to grow up valuing? Would you wish for your children to sacrifice themselves for a relationship? A marriage?

    I believe that there are three entities in a relationship – You, Your Husband AND the Relationship. Each must be treated respectfully and with love.

    If you can allow yourself to stay in your marriage and NOT sacrifice You – (because there is no God that will back you up on sacrificing You and your needs) – and you can open your heart to this man again – okay, there’s something to work with.

    Your needs must be met in this marriage.

    Most importantly, its imperative that you look at who you are and create some independence for yourself. I do not believe it is possible for you to make this decision when you feel you have no choice (because that really isn’t one, now is it).

    Please fill your life up. Your life. Separate from your husband. Separate from your children. You are not here on this planet for them. You have your own unique purpose for being here. In reading what you’ve posted here it seems that you are not connected to this purpose.

    Once you do that and really have a connection to that part of you – you may feel entirely different about your marriage, about your husband, and about your life.

    I do understand how incredibly difficult and painful this is for you and I will add you to my prayer list.

    Big Hug,

  39.  #39Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Hi “S”. I did the same. lol. Hit submit before i was done typing all my thoughts. lol. Thank you for your kind words to me. Thank you so much for your advice/encouragement. And i do thank every single person here for offering their imput after reading my saga. GASP~

    I meant to say too “S”, that what you have said about my children needing a mom who is strong, etc. really rings a bell with me, as I have heard just this exact thing from my close friends and family, for 2 years now;i.e., “what does this show to your kids”? etc. yet part of me does not understand completely this thought. I have heard from others: “what does it tell your kids that you keep taking back a cheater”? Does it render me, their mom, a doormat? A weak woman? An idiot? A bad example? My kids have told me several times “you should just divorce dad already”…..
    Well this is hard, and I can understand the question, and believe me i have pondered this repeatedly, in prayer and in private thought and meditation too. My answer is: what does it tell my children about forgiveness? that someone can totally screw up big time, and still be given another chance, just like God gives us what? 70 x 7 chances as it says in the Bible. Matt. 18:21: “At that point Peter got up the nerve to ask, Master, how many times do I forgive a brother or sister who hurts me? seven? Jesus replied seven? hardly. Try seventy times seven.”

    So…….this so far has been my stance.

  40.  #40Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Thank you so very much Orna~~~~
    Such awesome thoughts to ponder.

  41.  #41Orna Walters on March 27, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Hi Ingrid,

    Thanks for the acknowledgment! I’m used to admitting EVERYTHING! 🙂 It was very difficult when I still judged those parts of me but I do understand things in a much larger view now.

    I share it because of the incredibly low self esteem I once had and now that I’m on the other side of it I want to let everyone know it is possible for you too! I’m not Wonder Woman – if I can raise the level of valuing me, You can too!

    I went from accepting the tiniest of crumbs to being very clear on what I wanted and would not settle for less than ALL of it – and I have that life now! I have an incredible relationship with my Beloved.

    The road here was not always pretty, and didn’t feel good a lot of the time, but the road does exist and because I found it, I help others find it, and I know you can find it too.

    Big Hug,

  42.  #42Orna Walters on March 27, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    Oh, and the YOU above = ALL of You. Every one of you reading this. 😉

  43.  #43Alicia on March 27, 2010 at 4:18 pm



    I feel for you!!! I hope you heart has support to be alert and have compassion and wisdom!

    If he wants to go let him go… Stand up for YOU! This will shock him and agreeing to take space will not let him have all the power. And I would need space to heal, feel, and deal.. ASAP!!! Take the pulse out his heart if you will… Force him to feel the family absence and get help.

    He is living in a fantasy.. Like anyone with addictions he is looking outside of himself to heal and numb pain. It’s so dangerous for YOUR health. I feel imense anger triggered. Especially from a girl who will spread for a buck!!! ARRRRRGHHHHH!!!!

    But, this window happens where people start building a wall up with the spouse.. and start believing this “other” person is everything… Women can do this too. It’a a HUGE lie. What your husband does not realize is he is just her “tipper”.. AND he will go down in a pit.. for not being there for himself..

  44.  #44Alicia on March 27, 2010 at 4:22 pm


    I think Rori has some tools on reconnecting. And http://www.marriagetoday.org (click on tv) has some WONDERFUL INSIGHT and counseling available.. As mad as I am to hear of this.. Women also have to realize what caused it. They do say 80% of men who cheat were not feeling emotionally connected at home and it’s not all physical like we think.. I wish you much growth and healing!!

  45.  #45Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Wow Orna. Every word you say is so powerful and I appreciate hearing this from you just so much. Everything you say about loving myself, etc. this has real value of course. Tried to copy and paste, but didn'[t work, darn it. I am pondering your good questions for sure.

    John 15:13: “There is no greater love than this, that one lays down his life for his friends.” I consider marriage to be somewhat in this realm, that marriage really IS laying down our life for another, our beloved spouse and friend, and for the good of our family unit. Don;t know if you can fully understand this or not; Orna, are you married? do you have children? Would love to know this.

    I feel, in my heart Orna, that when I married, I kinda surrendered myself to my new family. I gave myself to my hubby, gave birth to my children, and laid down my life for them, my family, and I am one flesh with my husband, we are a unit now. lol what a thought. This is how I feel. Of course this gives no one reason to cheat, but just thought I’d share this. It’s easy to lose oneself in their love and their family, hard to still remain a person apart, at least it has been for me.

  46.  #46Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    Hi Alicia and thank you~

    Yep I guess my dear hubby thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence now for the past 2 years. Two years we spent being separated in and out, in and out of the home, trauma for our kids too, not to mention the total turmoil it caused for me, and havoc on my self-esteem.

    I tell you friend, this is THE last time I will go to this place, regardless of my religious convictions even. I could NEVER retreat to him ever again if he chose to still go back to this stripper now after 3 years. NEVER. I’d rather die. I am giving him one more chance here, and so far things seem good. We’re going to counseling, he’s asked for my forgiveness, said it was all a mistake, blah blah blah, and I love him immensely. I wish not so much. I am trying to take Rori’s advice to pull back somewhat. Two counselors told us, I seem to pull forward towards him, then he pulls back. This I need to know how to change. Help if you can.

  47.  #47Alicia on March 27, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Sally –

    Affairs are the ULTIMATE feeling in betrayal. Even God understood this and as much as He hates divorce he ALLOWS it for this one reason. You can have healing!!! The first is acceptance. Get you healed, I would hit the gas on your healing. Accepting this is over for now.. might get you out of endless hoping for changes. And looking up books and cheating spouses and getting them back or not will give you knowledge.. And ofcourse wrap yourself in prayer and know God is here to comfort you and this is not His will or His fault… He can work ALL things together for the good for those who love Him. Trust that.. http://www.joycemeyer.org is great for spiritual healing as well as http://www.innerbonding.com.

    Right now this would be over in my head as you need a clean slate and your self esteem back..

    Take Care. – I have one more thing to post for you.

  48.  #48Alicia on March 27, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    LESSON 1:


    “Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with
    acceptance can there be recovery.” – Joanne Kathleen Rowling

    The first step in letting go is to accept the fact that
    it’s over. At first this can be a hard pill to swallow
    because it’s difficult to let go of the hopes and dreams
    you’ve had with someone. But…

    The sooner you are honest with yourself that “it’s over”
    the sooner you will begin the process of moving on.

    You may not like it; you may wish things worked
    out differently; you may even want to get back
    together. But, it’s not until you face the reality
    that your life with this person has ended that you
    can begin to pick up the pieces and move on.

    You may go over in your mind how things could’ve
    been or you many constantly fill your mind with thoughts
    of the past and how you could’ve done things
    differently. That’s normal.

    Learn from the mistakes that were made in this
    relationship, use them as tools to learn from your
    past and they will help you to have a better future.

    When you really want something and invest so
    much time in trying to make things work, it’s
    human nature to feel bad if the outcome isn’t what
    you desired.

    It’s okay to have dreams; it’s the beginning of knowing
    what you want. Your dreams can and will be fulfilled,
    the only difference is it will be with someone else.

    When you accept that things will never work out
    with this person, only then will you begin to believe
    that you will move on from this heartache; and that
    is the first step in letting go.

    Facing the end of hope and moving past it is the
    beginning of acceptance.

    Remember, the end is a “new” beginning. You will survive!

  49.  #49Orna Walters on March 27, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    Oh Sally, thank you for sharing and being so vulnerable. I want to commend you on allowing Rori to post your story here. It takes GREAT Courage and I want to honor you stepping up into this ‘fish bowl’ of sorts. YOU ARE INCREDIBLY COURAGEOUS!

    I am married and you can read a lot of my story (and my husband’s) at http://creatingloveonpurpose.com

    My husband and I are not one. One + One = Two. This “romantic idea” of love where we sacrifice ourselves is great if we were living in a two hour movie, but not for a lifetime.

    I view marriage (a healthy one) like a ballroom dance. When you ballroom dance there is a space between the two partners. It will adjust with certain moves, but for the most part there is an actual space between the two bodies. This space = RESPECT!

    It is so important to have a boundary. Respect comes with a boundary.

    I come from a family where there was no boundary and no respect. “I love you” = I can do anything to you because we are not separate, we are one (and with this kind of love there is no respect).

    I grew up in a home filled with abuse – emotional and physical abuse. My parents told me “I love you,” however, the kind of respectful love I desire and require as an adult did not exist. I had to learn how to give love respectfully, if I wanted to receive it.

    Please consider HOW you would like to receive love. Do you give love in this way? To others? To yourself?

    Sally, YOU ARE PRECIOUS. My intention for you is to really take that in. PRECIOUS. There is only one You. Out of 6 billion+ people on the planet you are unique!

    Honor and respect and love YOU! What would that look like for you in the life you have now? What would change if you made loving you a priority?

    Big Hug,
    Orna <3

  50.  #50Rori Raye on March 27, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    you dontwannakno – THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! You’ve hit it on the head – and thank you for your personal story that sends this home –we make all kinds of judgments about all kinds of things – and those judgments often have absolutely nothing to do with reality. And one thing we women judge often is other women. And when we do this, when we say “why would he choose her over me, because she’s not as smart, pretty, educated, has a high-status or well-thought of career – we’re completely missing the point. Why ever would Jesse James screw around with other women when he was married to Sandra Bullock, and why did no one clue Sandra in, and why did she not guess this was going on? It’s really easy to just ‘look down” on the other women. To label them. For who they are, not what they do. And it’s also really easy to LOVE “bad boys” like Jesse for the imaginary, exciting qualities they have, without looking too deeply at what they DO.

    About Sally’s comment: I do not like to bring God into these discussions. I do not like discussions of “sin” or the essential nature of man and womankind. I personally have a very free-flowing concept of good and evil and of what counts and doesn’t count – and my view is all I have to offer you here. If a man is continually behaving in a way you feel okay with – even if it’s labeled “bad” (this is why polyamory is okay for some people) – then – that’s the life you’re choosing. If he’s continually behaving in a way you’re NOT okay with , that you feel the need to “improve” or “fix” – you’re in the wrong place. I don’t care HOW many years you’ve been married or WHAT you consider to be a “covenant.” (By the way – anyone who believes that marriage is between only a man and a woman, and bases their sense of morality in marriage on this – you will be bitterly disappointed by me. I not only believe in marriage equality, I am quite personally offended by the notion that I’m supposed to be “better” in some way than my female friend who happens to be married – legally – to a woman, in a fabulous marriage with 3 children.) So – I can’t help you around the religious issues in why you’re choosing to stay. If working this out feels right to you – then you are choosing rightly for yourself. And I look forward to hearing about your progress, and how things are going…Love, Rori

  51.  #51Beth on March 27, 2010 at 5:05 pm


    I understand how torn you are over what you believe. I too struggled with “loving and forgiving unconditionally.” I felt that if I didn’t stay with someone who was mistreating me that I wasn’t a “good Christian,” and that if I just kept loving them and encouraging them they would change. In reality, what I discovered, is that I was trying to do God’s job for Him.

    You can still TRULY love and forgive someone, but you don’t have to stay around for more abuse to be heaped on you. I don’t feel that is in God’s plan for us. Let God heal your husband, if your husband is willing to be healed, and you concentrate on YOU. With God’s help, you can really learn to love yourself and not feel bad or guilty about it!

    Let your faith help you move forward, NOT keep you stuck, or worse, moving backwards.
    Let Go and Let God,
    With much love,

  52.  #52Rori Raye on March 27, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    Ingrid – commitment to WHAT? Isn’t there a choice in that? I am with eastern thought on what you ask. To me, suffering is not a badge of honor, it is not anything worth aspiring to – in fact, suffering on this beautiful planet must be reduced, not glamorized or encouraged. In order to reduce the suffering of others, we must learn to reduce the suffering in our own lives, minds, hearts, souls, surroundings…sometimes we choose to suffer over how our hair looks. This…. is a state of mind. Love, Rori

  53.  #53S. on March 27, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    Beth, yes, you expressed beautifully what I was about to say. Though I am not religious in the way that Sally is, I have a strong belief in right living (though what I come to as “right” is doubtless quite different from others’ concepts, and I’m okay with that).

    But, Sally, you can love your husband and forgive him fully, even as you stand up for yourself and refuse to tolerate his behavior. And think about this: by having sex with another woman, he is jeopardizing your health and indeed your life. I know that you want the best for your children, and they need their mother. Take good care of yourself here; it is one of the best ways to take care of them.

  54.  #54heartbeat on March 27, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    Sieena said – “Wow, Rori – that turnaround just clicked something inside into place for me! I’ve always been afraid that I would end up with a cheater and be powerless to stop it, and end up miserable, etc. etc.. But when I do the turnaround, what you say is so much more true! And THAT’s empowering, because I have total control over myself! Thank you thank you thank you!”

    I’d second that!! Well said Siena – thank YOU xx

  55.  #55heartbeat on March 27, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    catching up on this thread and subscribing

    Beth I love this “In reality, what I discovered, is that I was trying to do God’s job for Him.” I’m having a wry smile. I recognise that. I’ve moved on – mostly – but yeah it feels familiar and I feel amused. Thank you xx

  56.  #56heartbeat on March 27, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    I read this new post this morning when there were only a few comments and felt ENORMOUSLY triggered – this whole issue of infidelity feels huge – and came back to find this incredible discussion and tough-loving support. In a weird way I feel supported too. I feel Sally’s pain and it echoes in me at a deep level, going back to when my father left and even though he came back after a few weeks, those weeks were agonizing – and I had no-one to tell. Only now I’m a grown woman giving my lost girl a voice – I wrote some dialogue last night and it was messy.

    Orna thank you for supporting me on the other thread just now – I’m feeling a lot stronger. And I admire what you wrote here – all of it. I’ve been down that road myself in the past and as I began to really feel my need for love and intimacy, I took better care of myself. Still learning lol!!

    I appreciate S and Alicia’s comments too – feels like there is this richness of support, like a field full of all the best fruits. I look out for Tinque and Simply Shannon’s comments too, and I loved reading Daria’s text examples the other day, and her raw feelingness. Oh now I feel I’m leaving people out. This is my OSCAR SPEECH lol!!

    and Tina’s warmth and humour, and Soignee’s elegant french savoir-faire, and Siena’s exotic wisdom, and Turtle Girl’s earthy frankness, and so many sirens too many to mention all at once. Oh yes and heartbeat’s chaos and triumphs. Oh and Rori’s healing encouragement too – well that goes without saying but I’m saying it anyway…


  57.  #57heartbeat on March 27, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    And now to bed… sweet dreams sirens xx

  58.  #58Beth on March 27, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Applause for your beautiful speech heartbeat!
    Have a lovely and peaceful night.

  59.  #59Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 7:23 pm

    Thank you yet again Beth and Orna: Your loving support is so heartfelt. I surely need it. I am almost on the verge of tears. Yes, Orna I am so vulnerable. I wear my heart on my sleeve and give myself away so much of the time, where I haven’t learned completely to care for myself. I want to learn how to more fully.

    I know and have heard it before not to do God’s job for Him in changing my husband, or even convicting him towards doing what is right. This I do know is fully, 100% for him to decide.

    Thank you again everyone. and Rori too. We women can get ourselves so messed up over relationships. Wheww~

  60.  #60Ingrid on March 27, 2010 at 7:27 pm

    Alicia: Yes. Thank you for your abundance of wisdom you offered above. I read it over and over. I need it to sink in as I am very scared about if it will work this time around with my husband or not. I am especially scared since I have been a stay at home mom and feel so trapped. Everyone seems to have a career today except me. My vocation has always been my marriage and family, until all s___ hit the fan, sadly. I have no idea where to turn. Am working on it though.

  61.  #61Lori on March 27, 2010 at 7:57 pm


    I agree with you. Simply being a stripper does not equate to a slut or whore or even necessarily a woman with low self esteem and values. The stripper I know is by day a seemingly normal single mother in her late 30s.

    I have never been a stripper, but I can tell you that if that’s what it took to put food in my children’s mouths and there was no alternative, I’d do it in a heartbeat. And I’m a church going soccer mom with decent values and morals.

    Stereotyping every stripper as sick, manipulative, having low self esteem and values is like saying every male hairdresser is gay.

  62.  #62Rori Raye on March 27, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    Rachel, Welcome – and thank you so much for your story….You sound like you’re doing fantastic, and that your husband is a lucky man. Only thing – who says it’s only about sex? Love, Rori

  63.  #63Lori on March 27, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    I do, however feel for Sally and her situation and understand her anger towards the stripper. My husband cheated as well and it’s hard to be angry at him when the hurt is still fresh. It just, well, HURTS. There’s not alot of room for anger with all of the hurt. The anger comes later for her towards her husband. The anger stage is one of the stages of grieving, and she will enter that when she lets go of the relationship and starts the healing process.

    She is able to feel anger towards the stripper because she has no emotional bond with her and doesn’t really feel “hurt” per se by the stripper. I feel like that is natural and also that she should let herself feel all of her feelings, even though I disagree with the stereotyping of strippers in general. Perhaps she would be better served only saying that this PARTICULAR stripper is a woman of low values and morals (she IS choosing to have an affair with a married man!)

    My ex husband cheated on me with a Norwegian woman who wanted him to give her a baby so she could live off of social security in Norway and not have to work. While this was apparently a common practice in some parts of Norway at that time, it would be wrong for me to say that ALL Norwegian women want to have babies by foreign men so that they can live off of the government.

    Sally, I know how you feel and what you struggle with. I am deeply religious as well, and may not have made the decision to leave my husband if it wasn’t clearly agreed upon by the church that adultery IS a valid reason for divorce. Like Alicia said, there is a reason why this is allowed by the church and that is because it is so damaging to the family. (unless, of course the family agrees that polyamory is acceptable.)

    My ex husband got remarried to a woman who doesn’t necessarily condone his cheating, but doesn’t think it’s the HUGE deal I do. She chooses to “look the other way” and instead focuses on his good qualities. And he DOES have good qualities and is a good father. They have been happily married for many years. Staying with a cheater wasn’t the right decision for me, but it is for her. You have to decide what feels right to you, Sally. My heart goes out to you.

  64.  #64Soignée on March 27, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    Rori, I so much love it:To me, suffering is not a badge of honor, it is not anything worth aspiring to – in fact, suffering on this beautiful planet must be reduced, not glamorized or encouraged. In order to reduce the suffering of others, we must learn to reduce the suffering in our own lives, minds, hearts, souls, surroundings…sometimes we choose to suffer over how our hair looks. This…. is a state of mind. “””

    I can not say enough how beautiful I find your words.

    Reduce suffering!!!

    I read something about suffering by a psychologist.
    He wrote:
    Make you a question: When I suffer, FOR WHAT I do suffer? What is the aim of suffering? What does it bring into your life?
    What feeling does suffering bring to you? What is the profit of suffering? What positive it can give you?

    But when you ask yourself: Why do I love? FOR WHAT I do love? What feelings it can give me? What profit can it bring? And you surely will find inside you the warm feeling of love which gives you hope, which gives you joy and the feeling like you are alive.

    I asked myself: For what I do suffer? What profit I can have of it? And I found the answer:
    I suffer but it brings me the feeling of blue, of sadness, it does not give me any hope. I feel paralyzed, I feel depressed, I can not live at my whole potential. Suffering I do not add anything positive for me or for the people, for the world around me. Suffering made me understand the pain when other people suffer. But I do not want sufference for them, for nobody.

    But when I am happy and I love, it gives me hope. I can feel the warm feeling in my heart. I can see colours in the better way around me. I smile and can see people around me, I can see beauty around, I can give more to the world. I can be more of grace.
    I can feel love for me and for everybody, I can be relaxing.

    So I can not see much of profit of suffering.

    So Rori, thank you sooooooooo much for your help and the post. We have definitely to learn how to reduce our suffering and our pain and how to smile and live our best lifes. Thank you very very much!!!

  65.  #65Alicia on March 28, 2010 at 1:07 am


    I almost went down that path…. Thank God, I didn’t for me, If a mother were to step into this place you would know why the stigma surrounds it. I served drinks for two hours and walked out, my spirit just sensed temptation and something dark. All temptation for me is.. a “real” need getting met in a “unreal” way. The odds and what it takes to not end up on drugs, drinking and prostitution are stacked against the girl. I think it’s great to stand up for who ever you want.. with honesty! She can only speak of her “happy” marriage. That is not for the parent to “project”… Facts are facts they dance, bop, shake, spread for a buck… if not a million bucks. I can’t sale my essence like that but, great if others can. Time is the great equalizer for girls in that field and I do wish them the healing we all are on this journey for.

  66.  #66Soignée on March 28, 2010 at 1:35 am

    Heartbeat, thank you so much!!! We are here with you!!

  67.  #67Alicia on March 28, 2010 at 1:46 am

    Buttons pushed..

    Wow, I guess everyone needs to respect the others guide the choose for Agape Love and healing.. God, Eastern, Jewish and what have you.. Plus, I’m open to understanding it, I’m the only one who can change or believe in what I want.. At some point on this love/ healing journey in regards to that man. The bigger love source you draw from will come up in convo..

    I do think same sex marriage is okay, I think a better law would be… x amounts of “healing” before anyone gets married. I can drive 150 mph down the highway but I can to the altar. Odd? Also, if you understood clearly how many gay people had been sexually abused by the same sex or opposite sex, We would be more loving to the idea, that this is the road that person takes to heal the same sex trauma. I think if they genuine healing deep real healing who knows what would happen they might be strait. They may not.. it’s their journey. And we are not the Judge. We can only chime in.

    Also, whether it’s a nun or a stripper a man cheats with, Rori is right.. It’s easy to judge. It’s more about you feeling?

    These people need healing. No one wants to see people hurt, the hurting wife, the lonely husband, the empty stripper, the flying nun..

    Ingrid- I didn’t read all your post but, will say when you suffer.. and your open to love and healing you will Know greater Love. Whatever that is for you,….
    For some people trials are testing of faith and knowing “God” or fill in the blank… Whatever your God is…. But it’s not healthy to stay depressed and hopeless, there are so many layers of learning and growth be it spiritual or personal.

    I can only be me, my personality includes sweet baby Jesus.. lol So, it comes out sometimes.. as does my human side, less “spiritual” sassy side. I choose to edit only when needed but not out of fear, it’s not what someone wants to hear. My favorite line: You do you and I’ll do me! 🙂

  68.  #68Alicia on March 28, 2010 at 1:48 am

    Typo lol.. I can’t drive 150

  69.  #69Honey on March 28, 2010 at 1:51 am

    Quick note: Im on a date right now so I tried to think of myself as a stripper and it works! He’s going nuts! Hehehe

  70.  #70Beth on March 28, 2010 at 7:43 am

    Rori, thank you! Soignée, your response to Rori’s post was so moving, thank you!

    Why would I choose to suffer over something that I DO have control over? There is already too much suffering in the world by those without a voice who don’t have any control or choice over the situation they are in.

    I feel selfish and ungrateful because I have so much to be thankful for, yet I will let the actions of another person effect me and suffer? Why would I choose to do that? Why would any of us do that? Like Rori said, it is a “state of mind” and YES I am one that has suffered over my hair/makeup/clothes, etc… it sounds so ridiculous to me now!

    Our minds are SO POWERFUL, even last night I had a conversation with a friend who mentioned something about my toxic man, and so I was feeling sad afterwards. I went to bed and kept letting it consume me, then I asked myself a question that I had also read before: “HOw would you feel if you didn’t have this thought going round and round in
    your head?” and my answer was “I would feel peaceful.” WOW, I would feel peaceful if this thought wasn’t pressing on me, and that’s when I was able to “release” the thought and choose to be calm, and I slept wonderfully. . .

    This morning I woke up and the birds were singing and I “really” listened to them and enjoyed them and the flowers and trees are starting to bloom and like Soignée said I see and hear things more clearly when I am expressing love for myself, my cat, the birds, the trees, the flowers, the coffee pot, ALL OF YOU!! I feel more awake and alive! Why is it so hard to break away from that need to suffer? I love this forum because of the diversity here and the freedom to express yourself openly.
    I LOVE Rori’s e-mails! When I get one, I feel like I’ve received another gift, I get SO excited!! I know it will be another tool to help become aware of how I can make changes to MYSELF!

    I am learning and growing and trying to make that mind/body/spirit balance, and I’m trying to reprogram my “Trained Themes” and “Life Themes.”

    I feel beautiful today!

  71.  #71Lori on March 28, 2010 at 7:47 am


    LOL @ “flying nun”!

  72.  #72youdontwannakno on March 28, 2010 at 8:01 am

    I still feel very angry.

    I think some of us fall for toxic men because we are toxic women.

  73.  #73Beth on March 28, 2010 at 8:30 am

    youdontwannakno, you are absolutely right! It makes me very angry too!
    I am the classic example, probably more of an extreme example of being attracted to toxic men and becoming co-dependent and just as toxic. . .each relationship got progressively worse until I FINALLY stopped and said to myself something is NOT right here! I felt so invisible, felt so degraded and humiliated and had reached the lowest point I’ve ever felt in my life.
    I started researching, reading books, and fortunately found Rori and I am learning WHY I was/am attracted to toxic men and taking the steps to correct it/heal it.
    Things that happened to me as a child helped to create this pattern, but I am an adult now, and I am taking control and finding my power and giving power to the little girl who didn’t have any.
    I have lived in denial for years and we all have our own breaking points, but I finally realized that I do have the POWER to change things if I really want to! It’s just like any addiction, until the person wants to change, it really doesn’t matter what anyone else says or does, it has to come from within.
    Some days are harder than others, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing either, it just makes me more aware of my feelings and gives me more power to change myself.
    Thanks for listening,

  74.  #74Rori Raye on March 28, 2010 at 9:44 am

    Beth – Thank you! What a gorgeous and insightful comment. Know that for me, there’s a big difference between suffering and feelings. Feelings come and go, they morph – if we don’t label them, just feel them and keep gravitating toward the ones that feel GOOD, and tolerate the guilt that comes up when we do that (because we’re not supposed to feel GOOD in many places in our minds) – we have a liquid, fluid, lovely, happy, present-time, forward moving experience of life. Suffering is where we apply an opinion to the feelings that feel bad – where we attach thoughts, and then importance to those thoughts, and then we get attention for those thoughts and suffering, and we etch patterns into our brains and hearts called suffering – over hair and clothes – over anything. Suffering becomes a ‘ritual’ almost – and with some benefits. Thich Nhat Hanh is all about undoing this. He is a Buddhist “activist” – and at first this may seem conflicting, but he puts it together. While working to help those who are suffering – how do you experience your own feelings – how do you WANT to experience your own feelings so that you can do the most good? Can you CARE without the SADNESS taking over your thoughts? is there a difference between sadness and “feeling moved”? And in addition to “How would you feel if you didn’t have this thought….” try asking “Who would I be if I didn’t have this thought?” Sometimes we identify with our sadness and suffering so deeply that this becomes our identity – the face we show to ourselves and the world. All very powerful inquiries for our own hearts. Love, Rori

  75.  #75Rori Raye on March 28, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Ingrid – Brava – you sound great here – you will be able to do this! Just focus on getting work that you enjoy…that will make a huge difference for you when you feel more independent. Love, Rori

  76.  #76Rori Raye on March 28, 2010 at 9:58 am

    Beth – Thank you for this – I love this. This is exactly my interpretation (though there is no right or wrong – it’s nice to know what feels right to you…) There is a huge difference between loving and forgiving someone unconditionally and STAYING in the same situation with them and allowing them to determine the path of your life. There is a difference between taking care of your own precious life and consciously abandoning someone else – like a child, elderly parent, or injured spouse who depends on you truly. There is a place where these things have to be felt through. There is no perfect answer. But to abandon ONESELF – that is not an option, for me. That, to me, is not honoring God and the value of your own life, and God’s valuing of your life – which I believe is considerable, loving and forgiving unconditionally. Love, Rori

  77.  #77gina on March 28, 2010 at 10:15 am

    There is a guy who wants me to be his “business wife”. He is starting a magazine, and wants me and a successful photographer/graphic designer to be his partners. I am totally jumping on this opportunity, and I am excited. but my relationship with him is a little blurry. He talks about how he wants to spend time with me, in my neighborhood and have fun, but he is clear that he doesn’t want to date me. but then he said “not that you aren’t one of the cutest people I’ve ever met…” I haven’t spent much time face to face with him. Last night we talked until 2am – it felt fine, but we were talking a lot about past relationships. He has some baggage, which he told me about (2 ex wives and a daughter) he was asking me about my stuff, and I told him about my former working situation at the comedy club, and even let him know I had been involved with my former boss. Then i felt a little weird, and I told him so – but he reassured me that he wants us to know each other inside and out so that we can have a complete bond (as business partners). It feels a little exciting and good. and yet I feel myself starting to like him, and I’m feeling a little apprehensive…

  78.  #78gina on March 28, 2010 at 10:24 am

    at one point, he asked about my deal with relationships, and at first, I just said that I’m waiting for my forever after man, and in the meantime, I’m having fun dating lots of men. He said that he hopes my forever after man is out there somewhere, and that he’s a disaster and that he has friends, and they are disasters, too. He talks about how he cheated on his ex wife, but that he felt awful about it, and doesn’t want to be that way anymore. His playing days are behind him. He wants to settle down. He wants me to help him not be such “an idiot.” but after my “forever after man” comment, he said something about how he’s hung up on some girl he recently met. I told him I’m going on a date today, and he seemed relieved of whatever pressure he seemed to feel from my forever-after comment, and was all curious about this date. feels a little scary and not bad. But then i think of every other dating situation I’ve ever had, and I can’t help but think that it MUST be bad. I’ll try not to judge, but I sure do want to…

  79.  #79Alicia on March 28, 2010 at 11:42 am



    “Tis better to be alone than in bad company.” -George Washington

    This is a big one. If there is one thing
    you can do for yourself that will help you to
    move on with your life the fastest….it will
    be to avoid this on-again-off-again dance that
    so many people experience when ending a relationship.

    If it’s over…it’s over!

    Deep down in your heart you know it, but
    many people hope against hope that if they
    go back just one more time, things will work out.

    So…they go back and try and 99% of the time
    it’s the same sad outcome, minus a couple of
    precious months that would have been better spent
    in trying to heal themselves.

    Don’t try to be friends. Don’t meet for dinner
    to just to see them one more time.
    Don’t talk on the phone and rehash the past.
    Don’t let them continue to be a part
    of your life when they’re not.

    I know it’s hard to make the break, but be
    strong and keep your distance. It will make
    it easier on you in the long run. Instead,
    if you choose to keep in touch; you will only
    prolong the process. You will have to go
    through it anyway, so why put it off and make it harder
    on yourself?

    All of our choices have consequences.
    When you choose to see them one more time or
    talk to them again and again; the consequence is;
    you will begin to heal later rather than sooner.
    You hold onto the hope that things might work
    out which will only be a disappointment to you in the long run.

    Making a clean break and acceptance
    go hand in hand. The “clean break” is evidence
    that you’ve “accepted” that’s it’s over and you are ready to
    move on with your life.

    So…If you really want to be friends,
    allow yourself the time to get over the pain of
    the break-up and then if you still want to…you can resume
    your friendship.

    Remember, you are taking the right steps in helping to heal your broken heart
    and…You will survive!

    If you want to stop wasting your time trying to find out
    how to heal your broken heart then go and give yourself
    a gift, read the book, it will be the last one you will ever need
    to read.
    Next email is the “third step” in surviving the end of a relationship.

    As always….wishing you the best!

  80.  #80Siena on March 28, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Gina, your emails set off alarm bells in me! I fell “in love” with someone at one time in this type of situation and spent many years in it. It was a learning experience for me that I am – in retrospect – very grateful for, but I would hate to see another woman go through that type of thing.

    I spent about 5 years in this type of situation where I was in love with my business partner. At one point, I “caught him”, but it wasn’t for long, and it wasn’t at all as satisfying as I thought it would be. And when he left, I was straddled with a business that I couldn’t run by myself and a broken heart. I allowed the situation to ruin my self esteem, and made me feel totally powerless, and really stalled my personal growth.

    I don’t want to give you advice, but please just pay really close attention and don’t see this as anything but a business partnership. I don’t see it as “blurry” at all. He is looking for a business partner only! He’s obviously charming and charismatic – I can read that between the lines. But please please please pay attention to what he is *actually* saying, which is that he’s looking for a business partner, and don’t allow your heart to get caught up. Find a man who wants ALL of you – your heart included – for love. This guy is not asking for that! Please believe me!

    I believe your apprehension is actually your heart screaming NO!! STOP!! Please listen to that!

    haha, I feel very passionate about this (obviously).

    Much love,


  81.  #81Siena on March 28, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    (oh boy, I guess I ended up giving you advice afterall! Oh well, old habits die hard!)

  82.  #82gina on March 28, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Yeah I dunno…at first he was calling me all the time and I felt weirded out and acted a little turned off and annoyed on the phone once. Then he cooled off and I didn’t hear from him for a while. My sense of things is that I’m in control and that he is trying to be cool, but I know that the tables could turn if I fell for him. We’ll see…

  83.  #83Beth on March 28, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Rori, thank you so much for your feedback, and for expanding on feelings and suffering. Every example you give is so helpful! It’s weird, but I feel like I’m just finding my voice for the first time in my life. It feels awkward to write or say what I’m feeling. It’s like being a child who doesn’t have a big vocabulary, but knows in their head and heart what they “want” to say, it just doesn’t come out very easily yet. I am so excited to practice all the time though, and be aware of how I am experiencing my feelings and being careful not to label them, just embrace them and let them flow.


  84.  #84Siena on March 28, 2010 at 2:52 pm


    On the topic of suffering – I realize that I am a glutton for it.

    I tend to over-glamourize my most recent relationships, and remain stuck on the man who is no longer here. Even while I circular date (which is going great, and I’m having fun doing it, btw – even with the boring ones), I still see the circular dating as preparing me for the time when the ex will show back up in my life. When I’ll be able to “show” him that I’ve moved on and how much I’ve grown, etc.

    My brain knows that this is not the way to go about this, that I am missing the point. That even if/when he does show back up in my life, if I’m faking it with the circular dating, he’ll sense it and know I’m not being authentic and maybe even playing a game. But how can I bring my heart to this realization so that I can feel it in my whole being? Do you have a tool for this?

    I guess what I’m saying is that I can think my way through this, but I want to be able to authentically feel my way through it instead, and don’t know how to get there.



  85.  #85Daria on March 28, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Rori – can you please tell us about this question from a siren?

    ““I have actually been practicing meeting different kinds of men for about 8 months now, but not consistently because it gets too tiring and overwhelming. Every man I meet in person (except one, where we both agreed it felt like friends) falls hard for me and I have handled that in a variety of ways, depending on the specific situation. I don’t like when that happens. It does not feel good. So, what are you saying I am supposed to do in those situations? Continue to go out with them even though I’m not feeling it?

    I did that with one guy, and now I feel myself having a hard time continuing to see him because I am enjoying it less and less, and I don’t know what to do. How long do we have to keep “receiving” from the ones we’re not enjoying? (He recently gave me a necklace and it felt really awful because I know he’s in love with me.)”

  86.  #86Siena on March 28, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    OK I lied. I actually HATE circular dating! It feels like one big chore to me – like washing the dishes over and over and over again. And I feel afraid that I hate it so much, and I feel like these guys should have to earn the right to know my feelings and my true self, that they shouldn’t be able to get to me for free. I’m afraid because I know I will always be alone if I don’t open up my true self.

    And Rori, you can ignore my earlier question. I was asking a question based on a future that may or may not even happen. I feel like a little girl playing dolls and making up scenarios; or one who sits at the back of the classroom and prays that the teacher doesn’t call on her because she knows she’ll have the wrong answer and be laughed at when she answers it wrong.

    And I feel indignant that I even have to go through any of this in the first place! Why can’t I be rescued by my prince? I DO want the fairytale! Why do I have to wade through the sludge of the muck of circular dating? I feel angry about that.

    And now I feel silly, because I am just a mess, and not the grown up woman that I pretend to be. Oh well, I still love my messy little girl self…

  87.  #87Tina on March 28, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    Yeah, how else will you find out about yourself? this is about dating and not wanting to do the work. Is there any other way to do it? I have a 19 yr.old man chatting me up right now lol. ooooooh ok 🙂

  88.  #88Tina on March 28, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    I think it’s kinda cute that he is flexing his masculine muscles, I did tell him before that we could “hang” and do coffee.

  89.  #89Tina on March 28, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    I’m circular dating him I suppose in a way, dunno. What’s his message?

  90.  #90Tina on March 28, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    I dont feel like I want his attention, but I feel curious to know what is his message. If he is my mirror then what is it that is being reflected back to me? I remember when (back in the day) I would I would be having random sex eh hem, yeah that I would go through a period where men would want to have sex with me ALL THE TIME, then other times no, like it would happen in waves, waves of men coming to me, like they had a radar or something , knowing who was putting out at any one time lol. Now it’s just steady 🙂 but im not having random sex so yeah.

  91.  #91Daria on March 28, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    Rori on online DATING!!!

    “Ada – online dating needs to have a procedure for EVERY man so that you don’t burn out…it should be a simple coffee or walking “meet” at a place near where you live. Thank you, give him your number and say “It would feel great to meet you in person, and I feel uncomfortable doing the asking.” When he answers that message….say, “Online dating feels so challenging, and so I’m liking the idea of short coffee meetings or walks at first, so I don’t feel any pressure. What do you think?” Love, Rori”

  92.  #92Simply Shannon on March 29, 2010 at 7:51 am

    Fascinating posts. Trigger city! Will try to catch up tonight. Subscribing for now.

  93.  #93Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 10:10 am



    “People have a hard time letting go of their suffering.
    Out of a fear of the unknown, they prefer suffering
    that is familiar.” -Thich Nhat Hanh

    Dealing with all of the painful emotions that go along with
    “the breakup” is simply something you have to go through.
    It’s okay, you’ve got to let it out in order to let it go.

    Cry, scream and moan. Whatever it takes to release it, do it.
    Vent every single emotion you have and get it out of
    your system. When you are tired of crying, try journaling.
    Write down all of your thoughts and feelings.
    Cleanse your soul of your pain.

    Grieving your loss is perfectly okay.
    This is the time to cry away the past so you can begin
    to put it behind you. It’s normal to go through the mourning process.

    So don’t feel bad for feeling bad.

    Keep reminding yourself that you will get through this,
    you just have to allow yourself a little time.
    Don’t let this time go on too long where you find yourself
    stuck and can’t let go.

    Give yourself a deadline: A week, a month or a
    little longer; pick a date and write it down.

    “Just because your relationship is over, doesn’t mean your life is over!”

    It’s inevitable that you are going to feel bad
    but as time goes by you will begin to feel better.
    Just hang in there!

    Pat yourself on the back; you’re doing what it takes
    to help yourself on the road to a better life.

    No one else can do it for you. So…stay
    focused on your future…and know that as time
    goes by you are getting closer to a stronger you!
    Remember…You will survive!

  94.  #94Aldonza on March 29, 2010 at 12:50 pm


    My real question is…why is he going to remain faithful this time? What is different?

    He may actually be repentant…for the moment. It’s also possible that he’s realized his latest fling is really not going to live happily ever after with him. If he looked into his heart, he’d know he really doesn’t want her for that. He was living a fantasy of a very sexually desirable woman who wanted him. He was ignoring the reality that he was providing ample financial benefits to that woman and that she was likely getting gifts and money from other men too.

    Further, even if this woman is genuinely romantically attached to him, she would *not* want the reality of being with a divorced man who had at least partial custody of his children. The money he used to lavish on her would go to child support and likely alimony. I’d guess that his time spent as sole caregiver of the children would go up considerably, leaving him a lot less free time to play with her.

    My advice? Let him go. Entirely. Do not ask to reconcile. Stop beating yourself up about forgiving him and the hard emotional work of couples counseling. Start your new life now. Act as if he’s gone for good. Treat him as though you are already divorced. Date yourself. Talk to new men as though you consider them for dates (even if you aren’t ready to date). Make sure that he feels the full pressure of being alone and caring for the kids during visitation away from your home. Talk to an attorney about possible separation/divorce. Find out what you may be entitled to financially. Face the possibility of life without him head-on. Don’t let fear of that guide you.

    Should you divorce? I’d never tell someone they should or shouldn’t do something so huge in their own life. But doing the same “I’m sorry, OK, counseling, promise not to do it again, oops!” routine is *not* the way to save your marriage. The only way he will ever really repent is if he sees and *feels* that he’s hit rock bottom with you. And the only way he will do that is if you treat him like it. Because to him, what you’re doing now just feels like just another round in your little dance.

  95.  #95heartbeat on March 29, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Alicia – thank you for the post on grieving a relationship, I needed to read that! I’ve been feeling so sad and exhausted last couple days. I’ve slept a lot and also had the evenings out which felt really good and exciting. Just having this simple permission has lifted my mood 🙂 xx

  96.  #96Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Humans naturally want what they can’t have and
    place less value tothe things we currently DO have.

    You’ve probably heard this phrase a number of times in the past butfor your current situation, it couldn’t ring any more true. Thinkabout it. Was there a time in your life where you wished day andnight to have (maybe a nice purse or pair of shoes) and when youfinally received it, after a few weeks you looked at the item withless value and just like any other thing you owned. The pizazz and sparkle those earrings had over you when you were saving up themoney to buy them lost its touch after you worn them out a fewtimes.

    Again… we place less value and take for granted to the things wealready have. This is human nature! It’s how ALL of us innately act, whether welike it or not. You probably ate a warm plate of food sometimetoday… how appreciative were you when you ate it? Probably notat all. Although there are millions of people around the world that would KILL for a warm plate of food, us privileged folk takelittle things like this for granted because we already have it. It’s not something to get down about, it’s just something that isquite interesting about how humans act.

    Now how does this all relate to getting your man back? Your ex behaves in a similar fashion. The value and appreciationhe once held towards you slowly went “bye-bye” the more you two saw each other. He started taking you for granted… especially when you become needy and clingy towards him throughout therelationship.

    Men are HIGHLY attracted to women who areindependent, have things going in their own life, and have OPTIONS. Again, people naturally like things that are rare. When somethingis scarce, more value is placed on it.

  97.  #97Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Tip #1. Debating Your Way Back Into Love Won’t Work I hate to break it to you, but you can’t logically win your exback. Love is about feelings and emotions and NOT about logic. Even if you come up with the most convincing reasons why the two ofyou should still be together, it won’t register with your ex. Inorder to get your ex back into your arms, they have to bere-attracted to you. In The Ex Back, we have potenttechniques to get your ex thinking of you in the same light way backwhen the two of you first fell for each other.

    TIp #2. Don’t Be Needy Have you ever heard of the phrase “the hungry dog doesn’t get fed?”Well this is essentially the reason why so many people have a hardtime getting their ex back. When it comes to attracting theopposite sex (and especially in re-attracting your ex), the personwho has the most options and who cares the least usually will havethe balance of power shifted to their favor. When you pour allyour feelings on the table and BEG your ex to take you back, youare literally pushing them further away from you. This is a verycounter-intuitive concept, but the harder you “try” to get your exback, the worse your chances are of succeeding. The Ex BackFormula is so powerful because the tactics explained in the bookare EXTREMELY subtle, yet at the same time VERY potent.

    Tip #3. Rebound Fling Rebound flings or I prefer circular dating (even yourself) are normally risky business so proceed with caution. But if you can find another mate to take your mind off your ex fora short period of time, you’ll be in a MUCH better position to getyour ex back. Why is this? Because what normally goes on after abreakup is the person who wants their ex back tends tends to OBSESSover their ex. Their heads are jam packed with thoughts abouttheir ex and the result of this is coming off as extremelydesperate when you’re around your ex. The best way to get aroundthis is to find a rebound fling that can take your mind away fromyour ex for a bit of time, in order to get your head back onstraight. That way, once you go back and talk to your ex, youwon’t be coming from a position of neediness.

    Tip #4. Stay Away From The Booze. I know for some of you, Jack Daniels and Jose Cuervo are the 2people that you turn to for comfort at times like these, but stayaway! Drinking causes one to drunk dial and drunk dialing leads towell… saying things we regret the next morning. If you’re exdoesn’t pick up the phone, we tend to call again… and again…and yet again after that. Now how attractive is it to your exwhen they heard 7 drunken messages from you on their voicemail?

    Tip #5. Work On Yourself This piece of advice is on every “Get Your Ex Back” book on theplanet, but I’m going to say it anyway. After a breakup, in orderto get yourself back on your feet and in a better position tore-attract your ex, invest some time and energy on working onyourself. Instead of thinking of reasons why the two of you shouldbe back together, make yourself more attractive to them byimproving yourself.

    Ingrid #2 may not be for you. But for now YOU get counseling and take care of you. If you are seperated you CAN date – friendly date other men.. But, if you want this guy back the frame of mind you are in right now will not get him back. You have to get back to the REAL YOU… So there are some other post around this blong on why Circular Dating is so healing and start off with guys you are not sexually attracted too will help. But, whatever you do, it’s time to put the ball in motion and set a time to get on with life. How many times does it take? Whatever you have done in the past clearly isn’t working if this is the 2nd or 3rd time. It’s time for something NEW!! ONLY YOU CAN CREATE THAT FOR YOU..

  98.  #98Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    That above article was in a new letter from the ex back formula… I don’t have the book but the news letter has great suggestions.. and they all thread in with what Rori mentions.

  99.  #99Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Thanks heart beat.. lesson 1 and 2 after a break up are up further.. I had to that this week too. But, I feel ALOT better today. I got the ball in motion and decided to let it go..

  100.  #100tinque on March 29, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    “Humans naturally want what they can’t have and
    place less value to the things we currently DO have. ”

    Maybe so, but this doesn’t have to be a given. Becoming aware also encompasses appreciating what it is you do have, and this creates joy and contentment right where you are and with whom you share this if there is a with whom.
    You CAN come to know with all you have that the grass is the greenest right where you are.

  101.  #101Lucy on March 29, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Agreed, Tinque! 🙂 Thanks for saying this and expressing it so beautifully.


  102.  #102Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    T- That is right but that statement is from a man about women who overfunction. 😉

  103.  #103Katarina on March 29, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    This post feels particularly relevant to me and I so sympathize with Ingrid. I am in a remarkably similar situation. The “other woman” isn’t a stripper (I personally find that irrelevant) but it has been going on for over 2 years, there are young children involved, and there have been multiple rounds in the dance. I too used to feel anger and judgement towards the woman involved, then came all the insecurities from comparing myself aesthetically (I am mid-thirties w/ 3 kids and she is 10 years my junior). There were times I begged for our family(PRE-Rori!) and used to reason with him about what us splitting apart would do to the kids, etc.

    Luckily I’m past that part aside from the lingering self-doubt. I’m not yet free of the cycles as we still live together and he wants “to work on the relationship.” I feel somewhat trapped as I have been a stay at home Mom for 6 years now. I’m now working part-time from home which is helping. Funny thing is, now that I’ve taken my focus off of him and getting him back, he is the one trying to put things back together. I am finding that while I still love him and want things to work out for our family, that it isn’t something I’m willing to invest myself in at this point. I may never feel trustful of him again. Now I’m getting the comments asking how *I* can turn my back on him when all of this is caused by his drinking problems and he needs/wants some help. All of the sudden he wants to talk about seeking help for his bipolar diagnosis, and is asking me to support him and not ruin things for our family.

    I feel angry and manipulated. These are all things I tried to discuss with him over the years and was told they were non-issues and that I was the problem. I believed it was all me and I was a problem and didn’t know how to do relationships for a loooong time. I willingly accepted the blame and resolved to fix myself. Yeah I pretty much hired him to beat me up.

    In my quest for self-improvement which was really a goal to win back my man, I found that I’m actually pretty great and don’t know if there’s room in my life for him other than as Father to my beautiful children. It’s a work in progress as I still catch myself in conversations with him about the Disney vacation we should take this Fall, and debating if this is the weekend we should start the garden, or considering that maybe he’s right that I should stay with him and support him due to his problems. I keep having to remind him (and MYSELF) that this isn’t what I want a relationship to feel like and want to move forward with my life. To that he argues that it’s always about me and my feelings and that I must not love him which is what he always believed and why he strayed in the first place. Of course this plays right in to my self-doubt and confidence in my ability to know the best thing to do for myself and my kids. Aaaaah…

    Every post like this that is soooo hard for me to read is also infinitely helpful! What a wonderful group of wise and supportive women!!!!


  104.  #104tinque on March 29, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    YAY!!! Double YAY!!! Triple YAY!!! for you Katarina.
    You are awesome…

  105.  #105Katarina on March 29, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    Aaaaaw thanks Tinque. I’m feeling warm and smiley!

  106.  #106Ingrid on March 29, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    Hi Katreina:

    I’d love to hear more from you about your situation and HOW you managed to “get” stronger after your saga. I hear from all of you, how very important it is to get YOU back, become happy and fulfilled again, for YOU, (US), not simply trying to win back our man. You see I have not worked for about 7 years now, therefore I literally have a very small social life, and my family has been everything, my whole life practically.

    Alicia: THANK YOU THANK YOU for all the great steps to survive a break-up, etc. and all the fabulous “tips”. How TO SURVIVE A BREAK-UP
    LESSON 1:


    “Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with
    acceptance can there be recovery.” – Joanne Kathleen Rowling

    The first step in letting go is to accept the fact that
    it’s over. ”

    Well, I put the words in here, “accept the fact that this affair happened.” As Alicia it is not over with my husband. We are back living together, as of about 2 weeks now, and everything is good. He says, as I mentioned above, he “broke it off permanently as it was ruining his life and the life of his family”—-meaning us of course. Somehow, I believe this time will be different, BUT, I am fearful, as this will be the 4th go of the same scenario. I am fearful and of course do not trust him fully, but of course not. I would loving nothing more than him to 100% fall in love with me, his wife of over 20 years once again. I am not a game player, however, so game playing does not work for me, yet I’m very open to new points of view of course, and everything Rori has to say.

    So…….considering the fact we are “back together” as a family, and couple, besides looking for a job I enjoy, then I’ll have some friends, be busy, be happy having a job, earning money myself again, what else does anyone recommend I can do/not do for the greatest chance of NOT having a straying husband any more!!!!!


    Alicia: Just what is this “EX BACK FORMULA”???? It’s intriguing to me. I wish I knew of it when we were separated the very first time…..

  107.  #107Ingrid on March 29, 2010 at 8:14 pm


    I can relate above to what you say, you “still catch yourself in conversations with him about all the plans you’re going to make together”, etc……I always did this too, every time we reconciled, which has been 4 times in the past 2 years…….4 separations…..4 reconciliations, talk about WHEWW~…….When he would move back in, I was waaay too forceful, I’d say stupid things, making plans, “oh now we can do this and that, now we’ll have to try that good restaurant, oh now we can all go to the beach this weekend, oh now we can blah blah blah,”, etc., TOTAL OVER-FUNCTIONING. I was the one to call a counselor, never once him, I was the one to do everything!!!! I am learning not to do this anymore, now that we’re back together for the 4th time. I feel I should just worry about myself, and our kids, not so much “US”. Don’t you think HE should be the one worrying about US? I do. When I was shopping lately, I saw the prettiest heart necklace I wish he would buy for me, as we just had our anniversary a few days before he moved back in. I felt hurt, that he hasn’t even suggested going out for dinner to celebrate or bought me a present or anything, or even mentioned anything, since he’s moved home. This morning he did say, he’s “happiest waking up in the morning again next to the person he loves.” That felt nice.

  108.  #108Georgia on March 29, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    Hi Ingrid,

    Aside from having a job, try short coffee dates, and practice feeling messages.

    Later you might find whether “Do I want to be with him?” and everthing’s will change bit by bit.

    Trust me I tried this on mine ( he was an abusive husband ) and its work, I have a choice.

  109.  #109Ingrid on March 29, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Rori said: “If a man is continually behaving in a way you feel okay with – even if it’s labeled “bad” (this is why polyamory (polygamy) is okay for some people) – then – that’s the life you’re choosing. If he’s continually behaving in a way you’re NOT okay with , that you feel the need to “improve” or “fix” – you’re in the wrong place. I don’t care how many years you’ve been married of what you consider to be a “covenant”.

    Rori: What if your man has continually behaved for a while, in a way that is NOT OK with you, yet you do realize you cannot fix or change him, only HE can change himself. And you are scared because you want his behavior which is NOT OK with you to stop, because you love him. But that also, that you have a long-standing marriage with kids, committed half your life to this relationship, etc. Are you saying, that for you, if something “doesn’t feel good to you” then you would just drop the long-standing family unit, and abandon ship? Based solely on “what feels good or not good to you”? I’d like some more clarification from you here if possible. It seems since you do not view marriage then as a covenant, as soon as it starts to not feel good, you just get out??? Wouldn’t this perpetuate a vicious cycle then, one relationship, on to the next? Repeatedly? All relationships can go through a “feels not so good stage”….don’t you think? What if a marriage union doesn’t feel good any longer to one spouse because say, the other spouse, had an accident or something? What if they developed a health problem? Would you consider because it “didn’t feel good any longer, then your justifiable reason to bale? Just attempting to understand your views here. Do you put any weight on commitment? For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health? How important do you feel commitment is in marriage? Do you hold to commitment only when it feels good?

  110.  #110Ingrid on March 29, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    Hi Georgia:

    Practice feeling messages with hubby? Is this who you mean?
    Coffee dates with other men? lol??? Why not? I’ve always had more men friends in my life than women anyway……so this is totally normal for me.

    Thanks very much for your imput Georgia~

  111.  #111Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    Ingrid –

    Before I found Rori’s site. I googled “getting your ex back” and these books came up. When I need answers I turn to google.. lol. Well, I subscribed to some news letters with out getting these books, to almost all the news letters and there is some very valuable information. And it’s not really what you would think. They all had the common thread of, accepting it – and getting YOU back. I’m 100% for people getting educated on men, men who cheat and why, communication, and marriage. And I have never been married. lol.. But, I had enough abuse as a kid to know there is a wealth of information available out there and “patterns” do not have to be repeated. 🙂 But they will be unless something is different. They say crazy is doing the same thing over over and not getting a different result. So what’s it gonna be thats different this time? Only you can control that for you.. I would not stop here or with a counselor, I would continue to educate yourself on why men cheat, speaking how you feel and “inner bonding”.. Plus, there is a huge reality check that the odd’s are stacked against you. I say that not to trigger anger. Only to reinforce going on a 4th time? I thought it was 3?? But if this is his 4th time something WITH YOU has to change in you and how you allow him to treat you. The worst thing you can do (and I not saying this directly to you) Is be a victim and get a pay off from that attention. That does happen! So, whatever it takes to get you empowered do it. And don’t stop learning. You can get the same news letters.. just google ex back formula, or getting him back, or ruth purple also has one on men who cheat and getting him back, plus their are videos you can watch on the web, (one was from the Today show and it was informative)… Also, http://www.marriagetoday.org I could not give enough credit too.. Click on TV and the videos are free… AND they are AMAZING!!! That’s all my resources.. haha.. I just copy and paste alot of what I get in my inbox… And finally, now that I started working the ex back system (my story is a crumb compared to this) But, now I started understanding things.. I don’t know if I even want him back.. I feel like myself again.. I cared deeply for this guy and he really didn’t do anything all that wrong we were just in different stages.. But, point is the more I sponge up the wisdom and understanding on my own growth and the male pysche the better I feel!!

    Good luck!

  112.  #112Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    Ingrid – I think what Rori is saying.. in regards to #109 is YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT OKAY WITH IT!!

    And when you learn inner bonding or how to be honest with YOUR feelings you tell him:

    He is only treating you in a way that you have made okay… and you taught him you would take him back everytime….

    If you leave and comeback, if you accept lies, if you do ANYTHING that is giving up yourself and how you REALLY feel that is covert control.. Just withdrawing is not the answer. I’m not sure how direct you are but, if your heart is broken, say I want to trust you but, I feel so rejected and lied to, I can’t right now.

    I hope you two are in professional therapy…. Real experts have the answers.. http://www.innerbonding.com is great the counselor has been on Oprah.. get the news letter.

    Also, trying to fix him or teach him is not the key the either.. I hope this works out for you, I would need to feel, heal and deal, and he would need to be renewing our vows for me to come back home. AND one final question I would have for him… “Is this about the family?” or “Our marriage” the kids grow up and move on… So I would need to know what are his intentions and motivation.. He can’t live on a short leash the rest of his life.. I would also need to know what exactly led him there.. Was he not appreciated at home was he feeling rejected, did you stop taking care of yourself.. All these are pieces to the puzzle.. Just work on healing and being honest with him about your feelings which is ALOT different then making him responsible for your feeling.

    Keep growing!


  113.  #113Georgia on March 29, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    Hi Ingrid,

    yeah practice feelings messages with husband and any man you meet.

    Just a little share from me 😀 because It makes a great impact to my life.

    I don’t know how to put it in a longer sharing. but to the bottom of my heart I wish you all the best 🙂

  114.  #114Ingrid on March 29, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    Thanks so much!!!!!

    When I first discovered his affair, furious, devastated and hurt, as you can imagine, I kicked him out. Asked him to choose, her or me. He always said me, me and our family. OK we agreed no more contact, he moved home. Then found out about some further contact, etc., same ol, same ol. Well, after 2 years of this BS, HE told ME he called it off for good. It’s a little different this time, because I didn’t force him to call it off, or do anything. We were separated, and HE told ME it was ruining his life and our life. We began counseling again, and he expressed the finality of it. I feel his religious convictions contributed to this decision of his, also he may be coming out of “the fog” as they say men get in when they have affairs. So we both thought it best he move home again, for the sake of the family, the kids. Frankly too, I need him to do household stuff too, kid stuff, I cannot handle our big home alone. Kids need him too. And, I love him, and he loves me, we have a deep and rich history together. Although I often think he doesn’t love me or he never would have cheated betrayed,lied and deceived me either. How could this be possible? I wouldn’t ever cheat on my husband, even if I hated him. Sometimes I feel men are total pigs, and not to be trusted. No wonder my mother always warned me to have a back up career….lol. I did prior to marriage but hated it, so now I’m re-shuffling my cards here…….life can be an adventure…that’s for sure….

    P.S. My h cheated with a woman, 25 yrs. younger than me. Can u believe it???? One word for it. SICK. This does not make me insecure though, I think it’s totally a problem HE has…….he’s an adolescent inside in many ways…..GASP. I honestly feel if he wants a 20 yr old gal, he can go for it and leave me. I have asked him if he wants to leave me for this? He says no. Well then, fidelity is what marriage is, otherwise he’s free to go………blah blah,,,,,,I am more confident now than in the last 2 years, that’s for sure. I know I won’t die if our marriage ever ends.

    You see, also, I have no means of financial support, so I cannot leave right now. How would I support myself with no job? Alimony is pittance.

  115.  #115Alicia on March 29, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    Restore Intimacy through Forgiveness‏

    Nothing destroys a marriage like adultery, but rarely does adultery just come out of nowhere. There’s usually some kind of groundwork that has been laid in advance. This happens when we take the intimate parts of marriage—feelings about our spouses, private details about our marriage, even small complaints or problems—and share them with someone who is not our spouse.

    When we talk about things like that with a member of the opposite sex, we are opening a window with them into inappropriate territory, and we are building a wall between ourselves and our spouse. That wall, regardless of its height, is damaging to a marriage.

    If your marriage is going to work in the future, then you simply cannot dwell on the mistakes either of you have made in the past.

    How can we tear down that wall once we have built it? One way is through the power of responsibility and forgiveness—whether you’re talking about adultery or any other offense. The spouse who has done wrong must take responsibility for his or her behavior, apologize, and ask for forgiveness. Then the spouse who has been hurt must be willing to forgive.

    When I talk to married couples who are dealing with a spouse who has made a big mistake, this is what I always tell the husband or wife who has been hurt: It is not about what your spouse did. It is about your response to what they did.

    If your marriage is going to work in the future, then you simply cannot dwell on the mistakes either of you have made in the past.

    In the same way, you can’t make a mistake and then start making a bunch of excuses for it: I was under a lot of stress. You were not paying attention to me. You weren’t meeting my needs.

    Excuses do not help your marriage at all. The best approach is to admit your failure. Say something like: I was wrong. I cannot believe I did that to you and there is no excuse for it. I violated your trust. I don’t deserve it, but I will do anything to earn it back. Then, prove to your spouse that you really mean it.

    For your marriage to be intimate, both spouses have a responsibility. One spouse must own up to his or her failure without excuse, because if we have done something wrong we need to say we are sorry. It is absolutely necessary.

    But the other spouse must be willing to receive that apology with grace and mercy. In Jeremiah 31:34, the Lord says “For I forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more.”

    We have a forgiving God. We need to be a forgiving people. Marriage only works when you are forgiven, and so we need to forgive each other.



  116.  #116Paula on March 30, 2010 at 3:45 am

    Alicia – thanks so much for posting the 7 steps.

    Please post the next four!


  117.  #117Katarina on March 30, 2010 at 7:12 am

    Hi Ingrid- guess I’m in a different time zone than the vast majority here!

    The more I read of your situation the more I feel like I could have written your story. When I first found out and moved out myself I refused to talk about the “relationship” as he was still involved with her. So he “chose” me and our family, but it was in words only, as he kept his double life going. I too gave the permission for him to go if he found happiness, but alas he always swore up and down this wasn’t the case and it was a giant mistake. Future actions did not support these words. Things would be great and he put in the effort long enough to get me back home, then the same old pattern would reappear. It’s truly exhausting.

    HOW did I regain my strength you ask? I wish I could provide a simple answer but it was and still is a work-in-progress! I bought Rori’s book last fall and started there. I was a classic over-functioner and very masculine energy. I worked on the basics…leaning back and feeling my feelings. I consistently started practicing my feeling messages with him and pretty much everyone I encountered. I was and still am working on feeling my icky feelings as I used to do everything to avoid them and felt the need to control situations around me in order to avoid feeling them. I cut (weeeeell, greatly REDUCED) sugar from my diet to stabilize my moods. I got into contact with old college friends (like you my social network had become small) and planned mini trips for ME. I started cooking yummy food that I wanted instead of always trying to make what I thought HE would like. I bought some new clothes and put highlights in my hair….basically took care of me which is something I had neglected for years as he and my kids became my life. With all I was doing to create peace and happiness in my life, the chaos and hurt that he was continually exposing me to became very apparent, and somewhere along the line I started moving away from him, and he towards me. Things go wonderfully for awhile….picking flowers for me while walking the dog, nice gifts for my b-day and valentines day, etc…but there’s STILL the drinking problem. He will drink and stay at a friends house (this is confirmed to be true) for days. I just know I don’t want that for me and my children. When I state this boundary he turns towards her for acceptance (she is very clear about her desire to be with him and start a family of their own). It’s happened so many times I’ve just lost interest in riding the roller coaster with him anymore.

    It’s GREAT to hear you saying that it’s HE that should be the one worried about the relationship. Things will start changing for you as you consistently take care of yourself and prioritize your own happiness. He’ll either step up or he won’t, and with your new Goddess frame of mind hopefully if he’s not being all that you need him to be…you will slowly start losing interest. In MY case, I’m pretty sure if I had known when I chose him what I do now, that we wouldn’t have ended up together to begin with. It seems our stories differ here.

    Can’t wait to read along with your progress! Reading here daily for months now has really helped me feel OK with demanding more for myself. 🙂


  118.  #118Katarina on March 30, 2010 at 7:33 am

    And one more thing as though I haven’t written enough already…

    I feel very much like you do surrounding God and Marriage. I have gone many rounds in my head over the “right” thing to do. A couple of things here…adultery IS (per the Bible) an acceptable reason for divorce because of the damage it does to people and families. I believe relationships can be saved after infidelity, so long as the cheater WANTS change for THEMSELVES. Not “for the family,” or any other reason other than that they want a different life. By you taking care of you and letting him take care of himself you will have the best chance of giving him the space he needs to do the work that he needs to do.

    This is so different than merely leaving when things don’t feel good due to sickness, or rough financial times, etc. This is a HUGE trigger for me as this argument has been used against me in order to convince me to stay and tolerate what I feel is unacceptable behavior (he does what he does b/c he’s sick, etc). Oooh I feel angry with the thought that God would want me to stay in a dishonest relationship. No! I feel mad mad mad.

  119.  #119tinque on March 30, 2010 at 8:08 am

    “Do you hold to commitment only when it feels good?”

    There is a huge difference between a bump in the road and repeated violations of trust.

  120.  #120Siena on March 30, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Kat, just chiming in to say I think your story is beautiful and I can just feel the wisdom and self respect oozing through the computer! You go girl!

  121.  #121Alicia on March 30, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Katrina –
    I only caught one post.. But, God doesn’t want you to do anything that is not good for you. If it’s religious beliefs you are staying for, God says you can go… as you pointed out.. So, it’s up to you.

    (This below is just directed to my thoughts “in general”)

    I don’t think the economy can stop people from doing what they need to. No job may be an issue, but, then find one, or go back to school. If college kids can make it and you really want out, you can do it, even if means living with family for 6 months.

    What if this was an physically abusive situation? There is always way. Renting a room from a house or a small apartment.

    It’s more like.. Am I willing to give this up? The house and things and someone who is not treating me with the love I need for my heart and healthy mind frame?

    The biggest pain in transition with love or people getting off of drugs is having to face the pain and continue to get to the other side. Example.. I know so many people who want to quick smoking but, they can’t because once it’s gets a little uncomfortable they give up. When reality is.. yes it will be uncomfortable for now and maybe a month.. Then you have your ENTIRE life to be healthy, enjoy, breathe fresh peaceful air and love.

  122.  #122Alicia on March 30, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    LESSON 4


    “We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of
    work is the same.” -Carlos Castaneda

    Indulge yourself. You are going through a tough time right now
    so take extra care in being easy on yourself.
    Treat yourself to all of the little niceties that will
    make YOU feel better.

    New hair-cut, color, make-up, facial, manicure or massage.
    Buy yourself something you’ve been wanting.
    Go and do something you enjoy. Do anything that makes you
    feel great about yourself, or anything that you love
    doing which you’ve been putting off.

    Join a gym, if you can’t afford it, go for a walk and
    commune with nature. Go on a vacation or go out with
    your friends again. Occupy yourself with positive activities
    and stay focused on things that make you happy.

    If someone you love was going through the same thing,
    how would you treat them? Well, that someone you “should”
    love is yourself. Spoil and pamper yourself
    just as you would someone you love.

    This is a time to be nicer to yourself than you’ve ever been before…
    You’re worth it!

    What you may not realize yet, is this: As time goes
    by and you are starting to feel good again,
    the person that is going to emerge will be the new
    and improved version of you. Take this opportunity
    to start to love yourself more. You have the power
    to create your future. Choose to live it well!


    If you want to send this ecourse to a friend, sign-up at: http://www.whystay.com

    We’ve talked about getting yourself beyond some of the difficult
    stages which most of us experience when ending a relationship.
    Even though it’s not easy, you are doing what it takes…
    So just remember; there is light at the end of the tunnel.

    Because you are in, shall we say, a fragile state right now,
    it’s important to continue to make good choices for yourself.

    By taking care of yourself and trying to do what makes you
    feel better, you are allowing yourself the opportunity to really
    begin to heal your heart.

    Although you are feeling bad, there is one very
    important thing you must remember not to neglect or forget.
    It’s the one thing that will guarantee your feeling better…
    “Don’t forget to take care of yourself.”

  123.  #123Katarina on March 30, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    Hi Alicia,

    I am in total agreement with everything you said and was also trying to make the argument against staying in a relationship where adultery is present due to religious convictions alone.

    I’ve been through the discomfort of moving with the kids in tow, have a Bachelors degree and some great professional work experience pre-kid, so while these certainly are inconveniences, for me the issue is more of giving up staying home with my children until they are school-aged. My OLDEST is starting kindergarten in the Fall and it is a joy for me to be the one teaching ABCs, and being present as they discover their passions for dinosaurs, geodes, planets, painting, WHATEVER. I know that MANY MANY Moms work outside the home and are also successful and involved parents. This is just putting a wrench in MY plans. 🙂

  124.  #124Ingrid on March 30, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    Hi friends. I cannot begin to tell you ALL how much this forum, thanks to Rori, the wise guru means to me.

    Katarina: Yes, we do have most similar circumstances for sure. I can hear you, and I relate……..(want 2 hear more from u too) ….and Alicia, thank you SO much for providing all these tips, from lesson 1 through what is it lesson 7, I soooo need to hear them, especially the last one you posted just above. I have in the past few years lost the me that was me somewhat, the me perhaps h fell in love with. A real shame. Although, I must say, we both in over 20 years have changed a lot. I became a born again Christian, wanting to live for the Lord, and my husband became more in the world, more obsessed with porn, more interested in the body, (even wanting us both to have a lap dance at the strip club),,,,,,(I think not)……while I have become much more interested in things of a spiritual and more intellectual nature. This has put us at odds maybe somewhat.

    Alicia: I know you mentioned your h had/has a drinking problem, understood. This is a barrier for you standing in the way of a complete relationship/his addiction. Well, my h has had a porn addiction for 20 years now, one which has escalated to “nudie bars”. This puts a wedge in our marriage for me. Kinda a similar thing, you and me.

    I do believe his addiction and what has transpired from it is why he committed his adultery/and sought out his affair to begin with. OWWW~

    Anyway, at this point, today, we are working on it, and things are good. I love him, he loves me, admits where he has failed me and our kids, and he’s planning on seeking out some Christian men with whom he can relate and gain support from. I think this is awesome. Also for me, I am trying to do things for myself as you mentioned. I bought some adorable leggings today, had my nails done, and am trying to get out and re-discover my interests and my passions again. It is fun~~~~~

    Thx so much~

  125.  #125Ingrid on March 30, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    Anyway, I would like to mention, that my religious convictions, I feel do hold me to my marriage. I feel, from what I have learned, on my newfound faith, that if a man wants to leave his wife, we are not bound any longer to them, BUT if they want to stay with us, and be faithful, we should let them stay. This is found in the Bible somewhere,,,,,,here……I Corinthians 7:15-16: “If you are a ma

    n with a wife who is not a believer, but who still wants to live with you, hold on to her. If you are a woman with a husband who is not a believer, but he wants to live with you, hold on to him. The unbelieving husband shares to an extent in the holiness of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is likewise touched by the holiness of her husband. Otherwise, your children would be left out; as it is, they also are included in the spiritual purposes of God.” On the other hand, if the unbelieving spouse walks out, you’ve got to let him or her go. You don’t have to hold on desperately. God has called us to make the best of it, as peacefully as we can. You never know wife: The way you handle this might bring your husband not only back to you but to God. You never know husband, the way you handle this, might bring your wife not only back to you, but back to God.”

    This, I really believe and hold to, in my life. Many may feel/believe differently, and that’s OK too.


  126.  #126Rori Raye on March 30, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Ingrid –
    Fantastic! Love, Rori

  127.  #127Daria on March 30, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    my parents have gone to strip bars together with their friends when i was a kid… hehe

    i mite feel triggered if my man wanted us to have lap dances… i have felt triggered this way in the past

    then again maybe not… depends

    i feel triggerd by thoughts of repressing and putting down others choices – i hear them floating in the air and i feel angry !! rah raaarh shake my stick

    fuck u repression think ur better than me!!


    yesterday i thought how i grwe up thinking im smarter than other people!

    and how this is not only not true – becuase i believe everyone is “smart” and that’s how i teach…

    but its holding me SEPARATE from other people and making me lonely… and who knows how else is holding me back!

    I feel safe knowing that im smart… and thus “smarter than other people” holds me safe… and yet i can be smart still!!

    theres no smarter, theres just choices that feel good…


    i really like that this has come to me now

    thank u

    i am a genius! wow this is cool stuff…

    i want healing for “i am smarter than other people”

    thank you GOD

  128.  #128Katarina on March 30, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Ingrid – it makes me happy to hear you’re having fun taking care of yourself!

    It’s also really encouraging to hear that your husband is seeking a support network to address his addiction. I truly feel this is a huge underlying issue in my relationship but it doesn’t really matter in MY case because it has gone unaddressed. He has attempted to stop drinking in the past without success, but has not looked at the issues causing him to want to medicate with alcohol. I gave up trying to play counsellor/care-taker….oooh about 6-7 months ago when I found this group! I WILL say that when I took my attention off of his problems and focused on myself it first escalated, and is now at the point where he is coming to me to discuss it and admit he needs help before it damages his career/ability to be the great Dad he wants to be. I’m mistrustful and suspiscious because I’ve heard this many times before and now only believe ACTION.

  129.  #129Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 12:50 am

    HI Ingrid –

    Thanks, I will post the rest of the surviving a break up, I just started getting them in my email so tomorrow will be day 5.

    One thing: lol
    From your post( I pasted it, Is that below for someone else?)
    Or maybe I copied and pasted from an article. LOL

    I have dated a gambler, Also a pot smoker, and sex addict.. but, I haven’t dated a guy with a drinking problem.. It really doesn’t matter because addiction is addiction.. 😉 My dad’s father was a drunk he died before I was born.. My dad is like a dry drunk.. sober but violent, even after 20 yrs of counseling.

    (Alicia: I know you mentioned your h had/has a drinking problem, understood. This is a barrier for you standing in the way of a complete relationship/his addiction. Well, my h has had a porn addiction for 20 years now, one which has escalated to “nudie bars”. This puts a wedge in our marriage for me. Kinda a similar thing, you and me. )

    Either way.. addiction is a wedge to intimacy..

  130.  #130Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 1:47 am

    Rori.. Book and DVD

    I just odered your book and The Modern Sirens DVD… Is that the best dvd to start out with??



  131.  #131Daria on March 31, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Alicia – its a GREAT one to start out with. I think it’s the most Goddess inspiring.

  132.  #132Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 1:52 pm



    “Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life
    you’ve imagined.” -Henry David Thoreau

    Now is the perfect opportunity to really begin a journey into
    self discovery. Read books that will keep your mind focused
    on improving all aspects of your life. Getting your self-esteem
    back on track is essential in progressing toward a better future.

    Be extremely cognizant of the things you say
    to yourself. Negative talk will only make you
    feel worse. Make sure your self talk is positive,
    encouraging and complimentary.

    Your words have the power to make you or break you!

    Your thoughts are the most powerful weapon you have
    in creating the kind of life you want.

    Discover what it is you want your life to look like, and then
    learn how to set goals and go after them. Self help is
    exactly that: helping your “self” in having a better life.

    You’re going through a lot right now.
    So, take it a day at a time and make sure
    your tomorrows are better by taking the steps today
    to improve your life.

    If you haven’t yet, read the book found at: http://www.whystay.com

    Remember…You are getting there!

    Next email is the “sixth step” in surviving the end of a relationship.

    As always….wishing you the best!

  133.  #133Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    P.s.. – Lesson 5 continued

    There is a saying, “With every door that closes
    another door opens.” Begin to believe in a better life.
    Change isn’t always easy but…with change comes growth.

    The door that is opening for you is to a new life.
    As you begin to accept that your relationship is over…
    you can begin to look forward; instead of living in the past.

    As you start to focus more and more on moving on…make
    sure you are moving on to the life you want. As you know…
    the choices we make determine how we live our lives.

    Take this time and use it to your advantage.
    As difficult as it has been to go through, I’m sure
    you don’t want to make the same mistakes again.

    Use this as an opportunity to create the life you want.
    Get beyond your fears and you will open yourself up to
    living a better life!

  134.  #134Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Why Men Lose Interest in Great Women –
    Choosing a Great Man
    author C.Carter

    If you don’t know when enough is enough…
    then you’re destined to contribute to your
    own suffering.

    How many girlfriends have you known who have
    been with guys who might have been “OK” people,
    but the guy just kept doing things to them over
    and over that broke their heart again and again?

    And you watched as each time things went
    bad, the same cycle of behavior started again,
    only to end up exactly where it left off the
    last time with her telling herself he would
    change and things would be different.

    You wished you could pull your girlfriend
    out of this, but all you could do was support
    her and be a loving shoulder to cry on when
    the predictable bad cycle started again.

    But let me ask you…

    You might not realize it right now, but
    odds are that if you’ve had a run of “failed”
    relationships… then you too have been guilty
    of both choosing the WRONG MAN… and of trying
    to fix or save a situation that was never yours
    to try and salvage in the first place.

    As a good friend of mine Marie Forleo likes
    to say… Men are “as is” items. Like a pair of

    If you buy a pair “as is”, you can’t bring
    them to the repair shop and expect everything to
    be taken care of and fixed.

    Sales are final. No returns. No repairs.

    Lesson: Beware the pair you choose.

    Men are the same way when you’re considering
    a real long-term relationship.

    If you’re taking a good hard look at a man
    you want to change something about him – it’s
    wise to understand that he’s not a ball of clay
    who can be shaped over time.

    He’s more of a pot that was made from clay
    who has already been “fired.” He’s “fixed” as
    far as you’re concerned once you’re in a
    relationship with him.

    That is, unless HE DECIDES he wants to grow
    and change FOR HIMSELF. (Hint – notice that I
    didn’t say change for YOU.)

    No, men can listen and grow and change with
    the help of others. And good men grow, and do
    so often.

    But it usually takes a strong teacher, mentor
    or authority figure for a man to hear them and be
    open to learning from their feedback.

    But this DOES NOT mean that you should become
    a man’s “teacher.” (Although too many women try.)

    Here’s why…

    You ABSOLUTELY 100% CANNOT take on this role
    as a man’s “teacher” AND at the same time be THE
    WOMAN he truly loves, wants to please, and is
    passionately ATTRACTED TO.


    The two roles just don’t go together.

    Taking on one role simply doesn’t allow you
    to act as the other.

    Following me here?


    So knowing that… which role would you like
    to be in your relationship to the man you love?

    The woman who is constantly trying to get a
    man to change, and who has to struggle with who
    and what a man is? (The Teacher)

    Or the woman a man can’t help but want to
    LOVE, and is so deeply affected and moved by
    that he can’t help but want to be a better man
    just to be recognized and appreciated in her eyes?
    (The Lover)

    Let me give you a hint here:

    Lots of women who take on the role of the
    “Teacher” often do so out of DESPERATION and
    FRUSTRATION with their current relationship
    because the man doesn’t treat them as the beloved
    Lover they want to be treated as.

    And because of this, the “teaching” they try
    and do with the man is accidentally done in a
    way where he feels CRITICIZED. (Which often
    happens as a woman tries to tell a man where he’s
    going wrong – even when she’s coming from a place
    of LOVE and SUPPORT.)

    Truth be told, a man doesn’t want a woman
    who will try and change him or tell him how to
    think or act.

    Think “nagging” in a man’s mind.

    A man, just like a woman, wants someone who
    will make him feel APPRECIATED for who he is.

    Long story short, I don’t think that you, as
    a woman, should have to do all “the work” in your
    relationship, and constantly be looking for
    what’s wrong with YOU.

    Men should do their part in love and in


    It’s my belief and experience that the only
    thing you can do in a real relationship out of
    true love to help your partner is to:

    A) RECOGNIZE and ACCEPT who your partner REALLY
    is, and not what you want them to be

    B) Be the very best “you” that you can be. And
    not just for the sake of your relationship, but
    for your own sake.

    Considering this last point, why would you
    ever be upset about being the one to be CONSCIOUS
    and GROWING in the way you are in your

    Let me land the plane a little bit here…

    The reason why I don’t talk about how to change
    or “fix” a man is because I know you CAN’T FIX
    A MAN.

    The more you try, the more unhappy you are
    going to be, the more the man in your life is
    going to resent you and not enjoy being around
    you… and the more your relationship is going
    to fall apart.

    Trying to “fix” a man is a GIANT trap that
    way too many women unconsciously fall into in
    their relationships without ever realizing it.

    And it’s this “teaching” that a man perceives
    not as love and a desire to improve your
    relationship, but as CRITICISM, that is the very
    thing that PUSHES HIM AWAY and makes him WITHDRAW.

    Ironic, isn’t it – that the more you try and
    “fix” your relationship by talking to a man, the
    more you can make him feel like your relationship
    just isn’t working.

    If you’ve read my eBook, than you know all
    about the trap of trying to CONVINCE a man to
    change and feel or act differently. And you know
    how and why this only creates more RESISTANCE
    inside him to a deep and loving committed

    The way to instead make a man recognize that
    you’re the woman he feels like he’s destined to
    be with is to understand how both ATTRACTION and
    COMMITMENT works for a man.

    If you don’t understand HOW and WHY a man will
    decide he wants to love and COMMIT to a woman,
    then making your relationship LAST with a man is
    going to be all “uphill.” All “work.”

    And you can “shift” things with a man more
    quickly and with less “work” than you ever
    thought possible.

    But only if you know how to communicate with
    a man around the whole concept of COMMITMENT…
    and show him how it’s completely in HIS best

    A man will be OPEN to the idea of commitment
    if you know the NEGATIVE TRIGGERS to avoid that
    activate what I call his “natural resistance”
    to long-term commitment.

    (I think this is just reconfirms Rori’s advice)

  135.  #135Ingrid on March 31, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    THIS little blurb above Alicia was one of the best things I’ve ever read!!!!! Thank you!!!!

    For the past 2 years, since my h’s adultery, I admit, I was more “The Teacher”, than “The Lover”….and didn’t realize it AT ALL. Everyone too in my family was egging me on to be that way too, telling me to give my h this book, that book, get him to read this article, that article, watch this and that TV show, so as you can imagine, I bombarded him with slews of books and e-mails demanding he watch one particular Christian TV show every week, which he always resented me doing. I didn’t realize it but I was most likely turning him away from me even more, being “The Teacher”. I now realize I have to completely leave him alone and leave him to God. He has to fix things for himself, when I stay out of it, he comes to me, and seems to love me and respond to me a little more even, but not as much as I would like. I get afraid he’ll retreat back to his old behavior, panic, then all too very easily slip back into my “teacher role”. I am learning slowly how to shut up, be quiet and let him figure things out for himself. LOL.
    I know I want to be his Love, not the person who tries to “straighten him out.” Coming upon Rori’s e-letters and this place has helped just so much. A light has finally gone on in my head as to what I was doing wrong.
    Thank you Alicia for providing this….and Rori too…..

    Now……when we go to counseling together though, it’s hard to know what to say, what not to say, so as not to appear critical, etc. I guess talk in feeling messages…..right? This is best. As they are my feelings, and who can criticize people’s feelings? They our own. We have every right to them, they are not right or wrong, they just are.

    Thx again

  136.  #136Ingrid on March 31, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    Dear Katarina:

    Are you still together with your husband? It is something when our lives do not go as planned isn’t it? I can very much relate to your feelings of wanting to be home for your kiddos until they start school. I felt the same but, In my situation, I worked full-time at a very stressful job the whole time my kids were little, (regret) and I got so burned out, frazzled out from a profession I hated, that I quit, after about 15 years of this profession and have been a stay at home now for 8 years, (about). THEN, I discover my h’s adultery, and I’m thinking and feeling “now what”? Start over doing something else???? At my age????? OMG. Very scary, very very unfair. Life is unfair. It’s so disappointing. It’s similar to the typical scenario of the wife who works full-time for years to put her husband through medical school, then when he finally becomes a doctor, he has an affair abandoning her. This is how I felt/feel. I’m so sorry for your situation. What made you decide to stay with your h who has an addiction, if you don’t mind me asking? And how do you deal with it?

  137.  #137Rori Raye on March 31, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    Ingrid – this is brilliant. Thank you all for helping with this. Beautifully put. (I’m going to swipe it to use in a newsletter or post…) Love, Rori

  138.  #138Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    Ingrid –

    Funny how we do that, thinking we are helping. I need a stamp that says.. Opposite sex, Opposite Actions…. think backwards.. lol

    Rori’s ebook is very helpful.. and Rori I think the price is really reasonable 19.99. My printer is making feel frustrated but, the makes me feel great.. hopeful, inspired and wiser with men.

    (I’m testing the feelings statement out little by little it’s kinda humorous some days.. lol)

    Anyway, you just expressing YOUR feelings wont make him feel blamed. He will probably really “hear” you.. Keep it up!

  139.  #139Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    * the book..

  140.  #140Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Ingrid –

    I know your spritual.. I remember this from the Power of the Praying Wife. cd I have… She bascially says the same thing, don’t teach, let it go… But your best secret weapon is prayer for him…. This one lady said she prayed for their to be just icky static and confusion with his mistress, and God would change or reveal his will to his heart, if it’s in His will that they stay together. 2 weeks later he was talking to her in a way he never had before..

    My good friend married a pastor when she 18, and he cheated, and she was married as a virgin and huge on faith.. She prayed alot because she thought it might be right to work it out, and her husband went back and fourth on staying or leaving but, finally he said he wasn’t sure.. So she said there is my answer and she felt free and released to go.. She since remarried and had a handsome wonderful husband..

    I’m just saying there is power and revelation to your heart in that.. I personally believe.

    With that said.. You have to put yourself first.. Trust your heart.. and don’t let guilt or fear confuse you.. It might be time to take a leap of faith and do something totally different. Sounds like you have started that process.

  141.  #141Ingrid on March 31, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    I have Rori’s ebook, will have to pull it out again to read it. Yes, it is marvelous!

    Alicia: wanted to say thank you also for providing that http://www.whystay.com website. It looks fantastic. I’ll eventually have to get her book too for $47.00.

    I admit, surrendering control and stopping being “the teacher” can be hard, and frustrating, because you want your man to do the right thing, why? because it affects YOU, and your family!!!! For instance, I feel so glad my h, with this time being back home, is agreeing to attend a men’s support group. He so far he has gone once. What if he just doesn’t go anymore? I feel it is crucial to his healing of HIS life/addiction, and the healing of our marriage too. Do I just not say anything if he won’t go back??? Maybe I’m jumping the gun here, but I do worry about it sometimes. I guess, express it in “feeling messages” again…i.e., “I feel bad/sad/fearful/etc., ….I’d feel better/happier,more confident/secure about our marriage, etc., if you’d pursue this or that,” ……blah blah, then leave it to him to decide and make that choice. Obviously, if down the road, he stops going, resumes contact with that person, or whatever, and no matter where the chips fall, it will still be HIS choice to make it such. HIS ACTIONS will speak way louder than his words. Last week he was given an “assignment” by our counselors, to do. He did not do it. I did not say anything for a change, I held my tongue. YAY for me!! (Huge learning step for me). OK they are giving him another week to do it. We’ll see. Instead of bugging him about it, I have decided to not interfere. His actions will speak louder than words. If he cares enough, he will do it. If not, he won’t. THIS will speak volumes.

    Thx 4 listening

  142.  #142Alicia on March 31, 2010 at 9:33 pm

    Ingrid –

    You are right about the teacher thing, I gave me last guy before I knew better this cd and I loved it, it pumped me up.. He took it but, I doubt he ever played it. And that’s okay I totally understand now.. We would read the bible together a little bit and a party alot of the time.. I just didn’t realize I was trying to change him so I could feel less afraid… Now I know to just express myself, and not in a way that says I’m concerned about you. In a way thats instead says, I’m concerned about ME..

    From what I hear you saying .. It sounds like you feel afraid if he doesn’t keep the meetings he will easily get side tracked.

    This is how I feel about it, in my own head:

    I’m a feeling a little disappointed you missed the meeting you said would attend. It actually makes me feel very hopeful and supported when you are there. I feel so much more loved and trusting when I see you keeping your word. I know they are about you and I can’t make you go. It just feels scary to me when you don’t do what you say you will. I’m afraid things will just fall back to how they were. I want to trust you. And I know I can’t change you, so I’m letting go. I’m not sure how I will feel if things stay the same, but I can’t continue to live like we have. I want to feel cherished and cared for and I also need to feel happy. I’m willing to this for a few more months and see what happens. I need to put myself first, and take care of my own happiness with or without you.. I feel like I have given a myself up at times and I know, I won’t be able to that now or in the future. I appreciate you hearing me and thanks for understanding my feelings.

    (That was helpful for me.. lol) Thanks

  143.  #143Daria on April 1, 2010 at 2:02 am

    Wow! Great stuff Goddesses! Thank you.

  144.  #144Katarina on April 1, 2010 at 10:04 am

    I’m loving the dialogue Ingrid and Alicia! Ingrid I REALLY relate to your process and revelation upon relevation. I too was always organizing counselling, printing off literature on alcoholism, providing times/locations of AA meetings, trying to get him involved w/ the Church and the list goes on. I can relate to having the urge to jump in and influence their choices b/c of the effect it has on you and the family. Being afraid to feel the ramifications of the mistakes they may make. For me once I REALLY got it through my (thick!) head that I could not control him, and truly that’s what I was trying to do…then I started accepting him the way he IS and observed his behavior without trying to modify it. Needless to say I didn’t like it. Yes he became more interested in me and being around as I was not constantly nagging him LOL! At first our increased intimacy seemed like a victory, but when the drinking and accompanying lies remained INSPITE of our new harmonious way of relating, I just felt eeeeeeeeew. Our “bad relationship” had always been blamed for the excessive drinking….but we were getting along so it became work pressures, etc.

    Now the neat part is that not only did it become apparent to ME how bad his drinking problem really is, but it became apparent to him as well. He now realizes that his habits are causing the issues b/w us (and in other areas)….but that recognition is merely step one. He’s trying to quit DRINKING…I feel there is/are causes of the drinking that need to be addressed (unexpressed thoughts on my part). He is expressing desire/promising now to quit but I have heard this promise before (always coerced tmind you!) and have experienced many a let down. Needless to say it would be great if he managed to get this under control, but I AM NOT BANKING MY HAPPINESS ON THIS.

    I AM still with him by the way. Well, at least living together and as a family. I am much more emotionally detached at this point. I have good and bad days but mostly they are good now. You are miles ahead of where I was when I first found Rori and this group. I was so beaten down, insecure, afraid of even telling my story that I couldn’t even manage to participate in the discussions. I would start to type something and then chicken out and erase it….seems so sad to me now. I was afraid of triggering someone and having them tell me I was being a pathetic doormat. Uuum I even put fear of criticism from strangers above the need to get the help I so desperately wanted. Incredible. That is what I thought of myself I suppose and sure was it ever manifesting!

    You asked WHY I chose to stay. Well, I wish I could answer that questions clearly but just when I feel like I understand, it starts to get foggy again. Grew up w/ a Dad that drank so have a high tolerance for dysfunction? Ultimately it boils down to not loving myself enough to accept nothing less than a great relationship with a healthy man. Self-esteem and people pleasing I realize now have been issues throughout my life. Many people that know me would scoff at that, as I was(and STILL work on not being) hard on the outside and soft on the inside. I am still learning and getting stronger daily. Of course I still care about him and secretly hope that he gets the help he needs and we can live happily ever after :). I do know that I am going to be fine either way and that having a wonderful relationship and peaceful life is paramount to me and that I am not going to sacrifice that to his drinking. It’s funny I used to make all sorts of threats I didn’t actually mean and I am coming to mean things but don’t feel the need to say them. It’s enough for me to know.

    I am so thankful for Rori’s work and for all the brave ladies that contribute here. I love the feeling messages and felt SO GREAT when I heard the criticism “it’s always about your feelings your feelings your feelings!” This being directed at a person who couldn’t even put a name to her feelings at this time last year. I am, however concerned that my 2 young boys are now saying “I feel angry, I feel sad, I feel sleepy.” I don’t want to raise baby-men! 😉

    Ingrid sounds like you’re on a roll. Very inspiring!!!!

  145.  #145Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 10:50 am

    Oh Katarina, HI! And hi to Daria too!~~!~~

    Kat: I feel I could have written what you posted above–totally, our h’s both seem to have addictions, only of a different kind. You see, previously I kicked my h out when I found out he was “acting out” again his addiction. I question this now, 2 years later if I did the right thing, BUT, then again, I did what I had to. And this is a moot point now, because I did what I had to. Prior to my h, I had an alcoholic boyfriend……well, this lasted for about 2 years, and I threw him out for the last time, when he came him wasted one too many times. Plus, a biggie I think, I didn’t love him enough. I love my husband and family more than enough, and this is reason to stick it out and try to make it work, at least on our ends. Plus, our children need their fathers. I feel it is baloney saying “it’s better to divorce than to have a bad marriage”, in general. Of course not if a woman is being abused of course…..but in general. Kids are devastated at their parents divorcing. Kat: On a very positive note, my parents best friends……the husband was an alcoholic for their whole marriage, of over 50 years. They were church-goers, etc. wonderful people yet he couldn’t seem to shake his addiction. Well she, (the wife) stuck by him thru thick and thin, and now, in the past few years he has become completely sober. They have 5 children. Their family unit has remained. It is an answer to prayer really, as so many have been praying for him, for so many years. Don;t ever forget to pray for your husband as I try not to forget to pray for mine. The book Alicia mentioned is a great one, “The Power of a Praying Wife” by Stormy Ormartian or something like that. It is not necessarily any particular denomination or that religious but just encourages us wives to never forget to pray for our husbands.

    Thank you Kat for sharing your story….Happy Easter~

  146.  #146Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 11:13 am

    I was a pathetic doormat too, and was all too weak not knowing where to turn or what to do 2 yrs ago when I discovered my h’s adultery. Oh if I could go back in time, I’d do things completely differently. I’d follow Alicia’s tips she provides in all the great posts. I’d be stronger for sure!!!! We live and learn…a little too late sometimes….but not all too late….lol….Back then, I was way too desperate, with no where to turn for answers. I don’t even know how I came upon Rori’s site, but it has been a Godsend. As soon as I am able, I want to order the DVD she recommends for restoring my self-esteem. This is the one I need first and foremost. Then perhaps the Reconnect Your Relationship one. Thank u Rori.

    Where is “Sally’s Story Part II Rori?????

    I am having a bad morning today, (after counseling last night) reflecting on things my husband told me 2 years ago when i first discovered his affair. My friends and family do not want to hear my sob story they told me ever again, I am not allowed to even bring up my h to them, as they don’t believe he will ever change. So….I literally have no one to tell it to, except maybe here….thank you all so much for listening, and providing your feedback. I am feeling and wondering if too much water has passed under the bridge for a restoration. I don’t know. But I do know I am putting into practice Rori’s advice on restoring a relationship, at least trying, as you’ve read my posts above. Here are some things my h has said to me, when it all began 2 years ago. Thank u for letting me air it; This was 2 years ago mind you……..

    ~When asked by me, don’t you love me anymore? he responded “of course, but maybe not enough”;
    ~when we talked, and I asked him to choose “her or me and our family”; he said oh of course Me and our family, etc., etc., then i said, “well, you’ll have to cut off all contact then with her for the rest of your life”, his response was, “well, i don’t think I’m ready to do that”………HURT;

    ~another time, when I asked him what his choice was, he said US, OK good. Then I insisted in our home he call the slut on his cell then and there and END IT. He hemmed and hawed, hesitated, etc. I asked WHY if you say you want us, are you hesitating calling it off now? He told me then and there in our kitchen, “well, because maybe I’m in love with her but I’m in love with you too”. I was crushed. It felt like a knife thru my heart. I then said OK then nevermind, just go. Well, then he called her then, saying in front of me, “I can’t see you anymore, goodbye”. Then I saw a 20 minute call between the 2 of them 5 minutes after he left our home on his cell records on-line. So you see I forced him to do it, when he didn’t want to. What an idiot I was.

    These things were the most hurtful things I have ever been through in my entire life, and sometimes the hurt is still fresh, and the anger too, mostly the hurt. I would have rather died actually than to suffer such pain. Clearly my husband was not ready to end his affair, and I should have left him alone then, completely, and moved on, but I didn’t. I manipulated and co-erced him back in our home. I hope I didn’t do it this time. Please help me this time, now that we’re back for the 4th time NOT make the same mistakes. I need all the help I can get. I never ever want to go to this helpless place where I am nothing but a desperate worm being stepped on.

    ~then when I found out about further contact, after he moved home one time, I said “this is your last chance, then I am through”……he said, “I need 3 more chances”………GASP


  147.  #147Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    UGH. I am feeling afraid today, and kinda yuccy. Sometimes counseling sessions just drag up stuff from the past which is hard, sooooo hard. I do not want to re-live the past, but still, all the past messages are still there, all the things my h said to me are still planted in my mind, and heart. They still trouble me, they still are so painful. And they hurt. They will always hurt. HE, I feel, needs to restore those years TO ME. What if he doesn’t? What if he does nothing? Takes no steps? Takes no actions? Acts no different now than the last 4 times? What do I do friends? I do not want to live walking on egg shells. This is horrible.

    I asked my h, after Alonzo asked me somewhere above, “what makes this time any different”? I asked my husband this just recently. He said, “because it’s over now”, or “because I’m through with it”. Something along those lines. BUT, there will always be this doubt, REALLY? Show me!!!!!

    How do you act when you are afraid of having your heart broken again?????? When you are afraid someone with toxic patterns will just once more repeat them? Tell me.

  148.  #148Daria on April 1, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    Ingrid – i feel really angry hearing you call this woman a slut. dammit i feel mad.

    i also feel concerned that this would push a man away… as well as that judging someone else reflects judgement of ourselves… so by judging her and attacking her with words a Goddess is at the same time judging herself and attacking herself

    it really brings down the “vibe” to attacking, desperate, blaming … rather than angry, powerful Goddess

  149.  #149Daria on April 1, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    Ingrid – Oh I would feel the same way. I feel like some of my exes that I let treat me bad in the past have a lot of making up to do – they DO.

    I do easily forget bad stuff when theres a billion good stuff and I know they’re honest and have completely turned around.

    They have to actually DO that.

    So if I were you I would work on MY LIFE right now. I would pray the he does come through (mostly because I would, to be honest, be caring about him as a person).

    And I would focus my actions and thoughts other than prayer on ME ME ME my interests, trying NEW things that make me feel good. Dating myself.

    oh and FINDING A WAY TO SUPPORT MYSELF. that woudl be huge in shifting me.

  150.  #150Katarina on April 1, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Hi Ingrid Happy Easter to you too and thanks for sharing the info on the book and story with a HAPPY ending.

    I’m sorry to hear about your morning and lack of support you’re getting from your family and friends. I was never told not to discuss my relationship with my family, but I could tell they felt much like your loved-ones do, and so I didn’t feel comfortable discussing the topic with them after awhile. Honestly I made the best progress when I didn’t have everyone to vent to. I have (working on this!) a tendency towards defensiveness and when it was only myself I was talking to there was no one to defend his actions against!

    I have replayed conversations in my mind over and over again much like you are. I always have the urge to resist feeling bad but try my best to let the bad feelings come in as Rori teaches and sure enough they eventually change. I sometimes feel my whole life has revolved around controlling everything/everyone I come into contact with to AVOID icky feelings. Talk about exhausting!

  151.  #151Orna Walters on April 1, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    Great stuff here Alicia! Really great!

    There is a whole other reason why “fixing” a man will never work and why working on YOU will change everything.

    Its all about INNER WORK!

    When the inner work is done WHO YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO SHIFTS to another level. As you grow, who you attract will shift to another level.

    If you read every post from me, Tinque, Rori, every coach out there, who wants the best for you, every tidbit is ultimately about YOU.

    The reward is PHENOMENAL when you focus on YOU!

    We will continue to act out the same patterns in relationship over and over and over again until we shift who we are being in relationship. Its not changing who we are, its actually stepping into who we REALLY ARE!

    Pain is all over this thread, this blog, and trust me I know the pain is real and it sucks. 😉 There is an end to it forever, just by taking the steps and do the Inner Work.

    If you would like some additional support on the Inner Work there will be an Encore of our free call this Saturday with brand new content – register here: http://creatingloveonpurpose.com/scienceoflove

    Big Hug,
    Orna <3

  152.  #152Katarina on April 1, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Also, in terms of trusting him again, Daria explained well what I have a hard time putting words to…

    Also, I don’t know how it was for you, but had I actually listened to my intuition and feelings sooner things may have come to a head long before they did. With my newly budding confidence I trust myself to know when things feel good or bad. Simple as that sounds I used to feel bad/like I couldn’t trust him and TALK MYSELF OUT OF IT!

  153.  #153Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Hi Daria, and thank you for sharing your feelings and “triggers” with me. I can’t however apologize for my feeling that yes, a stripper is a slut, you are entitled to feel otherwise of course, but my feelings are such, any woman that spreads her legs for men’s money, spreads/dances obscenely, nude, I might add, for money, is just that, IMO, a SLUT. I frankly do not know how you or anyone could feel any differently, but still, you do. Your feelings are just that, your feelings, and Daria, you have a right to them all the same. I thank you for sharing them here. Your feelings are beautiful, just as anyone on here’s feelings are.

    Happy Easter, and God Bless~


  154.  #154Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    (OMG…I am thinking if I had a million bucks I would just move away with my teen children, as it is too much work to continue on in a marriage where clearly one spouse has fallen in love with another, stripper or not, whore or not, co-worker or not, but most CLEARLY choosing to have an affair. This is NOT OK with me. I lend my voice here. This is NOT OK. Please here me friends, cuz if it happens ever again, I want and need you all to hold me accoutable…..that it is NEVER OK again for my husband to be wooing other women, strippers or not, as long as we are married. Period. IF he chooses to do this, so be it, but I will NOT sit back any longer and pretend it is not so. I feel empowered. I feel sure that it WILL NOT happen again that I will be OK with. NO way. NO way in life.

    Thank you all.

  155.  #155Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    Hi Daria:\
    A special hello to you today and a “Happy Easter” blessing to you especially. OMG you said your parents had “lap dances” together when you were growing up. WOW. When did you Daria become aware of this I ask?

    I guess it’s no big deal really, other than it’s not really what parents “do”. LOL

    I write to you Daria especially today, and want YOU to know you are in my Easter prayers. You are so special indeed, and you have so much to give. I really appreciate all your advice Daria. Although sometimes you have many feeling messages, thats a good thing, I know your heart is one of gold, a rareity. And that you are a special woman.

    XO Luv,

  156.  #156Daria on April 1, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Ingrid I feel really furious. you don’t FEEL shes a slut.

    u think that.

    I feel like attacking you. I think there was another lady here whos daughter was a stripper and she felt angry. I feel angry too.

    you’re welcome to share your FEELINGS. I feel furious and judged by your opinions which are not FEELINGS.

    I don’t want to go crazy and start telling you my opinions right now, because they are cruel.


    I feel really really angry!


    HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE THIS WAY!!! is what my voice is saying.


    I do not like this. I feel absolutely furious. I feel really protective of this woman. I feel really protective of other women who may be reading this who work as strippers and are now reading you calling them a slut.


    that is not cool.

  157.  #157Daria on April 1, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Thank you Ingrid. I feel a little bit better. I still feel really angry at you and I do not want to hear other women being called a slut.

    It makes me feel powerless, my face feels red and I feel so furious.

    I feel absolutely powerless and I feel like destroying the mean opressive force that dares put a woman down this way.


  158.  #158Daria on April 1, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    this is to be a SAFE SPACE for women to share their FEELINGS.

    not to share their opinions and PUT OTHER WOMEN DOWN!!!

  159.  #159dorothea on April 1, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    i hate word slut. anyway, since i have a linguistics degree, please allow me one moment of semantic pickiness:

    strippers aren’t sluts. sluts would strip for free.

  160.  #160Daria on April 1, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    I like the idea of being a slut. jus saying. I don’t like to see put downs and feel put down energy.

    again this is a SAFE space for ALL WOMEN. not a space to put women down.

  161.  #161Daria on April 1, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    i don’t like being labeled and judged because of my sexuality

  162.  #162Daria on April 1, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    I feel so tightened up in my cheeks and my thighs!! sigh that felt better. i lvoe my feelings.

  163.  #163dorothea on April 1, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    *THE word slut. I have a linguistics degree, not a typing degree.

  164.  #164Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    Dear Daria:

    I apologize if I offended you in any way, shape or form. That was not at all my intention. (Hug)…..I am just sharing, that is all. I can share my heart, as you can yours, too. And I love to hear every woman’s heart here.

    I do feel a stripper IS a whore, and a loose woman, who spreads her legs for a buck. Perhaps you do not feel such, that’s OK, to each his own. But this is my view all the same.

  165.  #165dorothea on April 1, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    I’ve been called a prude before and that felt bad like being called a slut.

  166.  #166Ingrid on April 1, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    Dear Friends:

    IMO I want to be a woman. I want to be a classy woman too, I want to be chaste, honorable, and a real woman, not a slut. I do not think a real woman is influenced by all that’s in the media today, i/e., having affairs, being loose, dressing like a slut, needing to be sexy to be loved, etc. I do not think this is what is needed. I, personally, feel what is needed is thinking and believing what God says we are as people, whether women or men. It is God’s view who we are……For us women…..here it is…..WE are precious in HIS sight. WE ARE beautiful just the way HE made us, with all our faults, etc…..

    It does not matter our weight, our job, our accomplisghments; it matters WHO we are….. That’s what I think.

  167.  #167Simply Shannon on April 1, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Daria: Just jumping on because I saw all of the caps in your messages. I understand you are triggered and feeling furious. When I read these messages, I feel shut down and disconnected. It’s like I can’t see your feelings through the “shouting”. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by fury and maybe that’s just the way I’m reading it and you aren’t writing it that way. I dunno. I can’t “hear” you and that feels frustrating because I know what you’re saying and believe you have a valid point.

    Labeling feels useless to me. It takes away my power. It’s like calling a shovel a spade. It doesn’t really change anything for the shovel. It’s just a name for the person using it.

  168.  #168Simply Shannon on April 1, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Ingrid: I feel angry at the “sluts” references and then the “we are precious in His sight” reference as if those two things are mutually exclusive. God loves us ALL, that includes the women you are calling “sluts”. We are ALL precious in His sight.

    I feel angry.

  169.  #169Simply Shannon on April 1, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Daria: just catching your last posts. You feel soft again. Posts 160 and 161. I can hear you again. Sigh. That feels good.

  170.  #170Daria on April 1, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Simply Shannon – I feel furious and shaky and I feel like crying. I just don’t want to read other women being put down. That feels HORRIBLE!!!

    Ingrid –
    you cannot FEEL someone is a whore

    you FEEL – angry, sad, afraid, glad and variations of those

    “someone is a whore” – is a thought not a feeling. Very different.

    We here are practicing being in our feminine energy, sticking to feelings, rather than opinions, which can hurt others.

    and Rori is the one who is to give advice and opinions.

    theres actually nothing wrong with a Whore Goddess,

    A Loose Goddess,

    A Get Paid for Sex Goddess

    BUT the feeling energy of the put down FEELS AWFUL.

    I feel powerless to stop you, but I am not. I have the option to “tattle” and e-mail Rori, because I don’t want to hear these opinions here, especially knowing that other women reading are negatively affected by them.

    Some women here are actual porn stars! some are strippers! some are virgins!

    please, I do not want them put down.


    I do not want to feel put down either.

    And i am feeling glad that i haven’t “lost it” and started giving my own opinions in defense, and thus putting more people down.

    Freakin crazy practice.

  171.  #171Daria on April 1, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Simply Shannon – I feel interested in that you feel you can’t hear me. I feel very furious writing those messages. Could it be really your fury trigger? I don’t know. I Am speaking in feeling messages most of the time…

    i feel afraid i won’t feel heard much wiht a man …

    perhaps… i feel really angry… and leaving is easier for me

  172.  #172Katarina on April 1, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Ooh these confrontations always make me feel nervous and a little sick to my stomach. I feel compelled to share that when I first started reading here last fall I too used to label the “other woman,” and couldn’t wrap my head around what seemed like women here condoning a woman knowingly cheating w/ a married person. So easy to direct your anger that direction.

    I’m pretty confident that I would never participate in an affair with a married man, but to worry about the other woman feels like a waste of my energy and making “her” too impt in my life. I’ve come to feel sad for these women, as just like me, they are in a place of needing support as they too are in a so-called relationship that is not honoring of them and their Goddessness! Now I realize that may not be the case for all of them and am scared about being called out as condescending….I’m submitting anyway! 🙂

  173.  #173Simply Shannon on April 1, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Daria: I completely understand and agree with what you are saying. I don’t like the labels either. Just seems pointless to me.

    As to the fury, maybe it is my trigger. I dunno. When I read your words in caps or words like “furious”, it feels raw and utterly powerful and very overwhelming. I can’t imagine having this conversation with you in real life. I would feel attacked and close off completely.

    I really don’t know. I just know when I read those words, I want to put my hands up to protect myself, like water shooting out of a firehose. ON, off, ON, off.

    My trigger is anger. Your trigger is labels? I believe we’ve discussed this before. I feel intrigued. I don’t feel anger. The whole “slut” thing feels annoying to me but my anger isn’t triggered. I reacted to your anger more than anything.

    I’m dealing with this right now with Mr. Fab Kisser. His anger sets me off and I feel defensive when it happens. It’s not directed at me but I feel tense and upset when he reacts in anger about something.


  174.  #174Daria on April 1, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Katarina –

    thank you for sharing. I feel relieved. When I feel so triggered I notice it feels like I’m closing up.

    I don’t feel compassion or receive love. hmm… feels like surfing a tsunami

    Yes I also, like many women I know, maybe even most women, have judged and compared myself and even obsessed about or even thought about killing lol other women in the life of men i was involved iwth

    the thing is, it WAS A DISTRACTION! from my focusing on myself! my own feelings of fear, and insecurity, and sadness, desperation, hoplessness, anger…

    so it is Definitely in my experience something that will slow down a Goddess’ healing

    the less I judge, – i’m practicing – the more I am opening up to feeling good! and feeling good about me!

    and healing myself!

    I don’t want to distract myself with addiction and crutches of blaming others and judging them

    thank you angels

  175.  #175Daria on April 1, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Simply Shannon –

    wow that does sound like a trigger or a past trauma

    ” really don’t know. I just know when I read those words, I want to put my hands up to protect myself,”


    I too feel concerned or rather Felt concerned that expressing anger woudl actually be attacking another person. I’m not sure how it’s not, because I too am used to anger going right along with an attack…. family…

    BUT I trusted Rori on it and am expressing it. Also, I’ve noticed that I am now encountering anger without such strong attacks. Anger decoupled from the attacking.

    I am practicing this as you can tell im sure

    “When I read your words in caps or words like “furious”, it feels raw and utterly powerful and very overwhelming”

    ooh i actually LOVE THIS. I feel exhilarated thinking that it feels raw and utterly powerful and very overwhelming.

    because thats what it feels like!!! it feels like my body tightenting up, my thighs my hips, my face!!! it feels like shaking, my lower back tightening,,, and shaking shaking and feeling like a volcano

    i love my fury volcano goddess!

  176.  #176Daria on April 1, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    now i feel a little scared.

  177.  #177Katarina on April 1, 2010 at 3:59 pm


    DISTRACTION…that’s it you hit the nail on the head. For me cheating and “the other woman” are huge triggers because of what they bring up in terms of insecurity in my own body/sexuality and overall femininity. Far easier to make the other person wrong than actually address my own fragile self-esteem. I must be moving in the right direction as I don’t feel SO threatened by other women’s sexuality anymore.

    Addiction for me is a tough one, as it used as the reason why my boundaries are repeatedly crossed, and as the rationale for why I need over-function and continue to accept bad behavior! LOL Guess I’m providing my own answer to the questions I was getting around to asking!

    Thanks for the insight…

  178.  #178Simply Shannon on April 1, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Hmmm… reading my post again, I can see the fear. Eck. This is definitely a fear thing with my dad. He never hit us (spanked yes but even that was rare) but I did feel fear. I NEVER stood up to him about anything until I was in high school and even then I felt terrified.

    I really would like to heal this. When Mr. Fab Kisser describes something that pisses him off, I want to make him wrong for feeling it. I really have to fight the urge to tell him how to solve whatever is pissing him off so that he can release that anger. I know we each have our own triggers. I know this intuitively but it feels so difficult to sit there and listen to him. Even when the anger is not directed at me. I feel tense. I feel attacked. I sense the anger radiating off of him.

    I need to practice with him more. This happened just last night and I did better but I definitely felt tense and had to bit my tongue at times. I am the girl. I am the girl. He can solve his own problems. It wasn’t even about me and yet it felt like it was. Weird.

  179.  #179Daria on April 1, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    Simply Shannon – i feel that too!! when someone is angry around me! I think its pretty universal that it feels uncomfortable to be around an angry person. I feel afraid…

    I would practice hey I CAN practice with my family… i do INTEND to take babysteps in this direction

    wow I feel your anger, and I want to honor ur feeling… and i feel kinda scared being around you right now. I feel afraid this anger can get turned on me… and i feel a lil silly feeling this way, and i just feel all tightened up and icky… i don’t want to feel this way… what do you think?

    I get megatriggered when some of my friends got road rage. I just wanted to tell them. GOSH ITS A CAR!! STFU!! you’re making me tense!

    This will all be great to heal! thank you ANGELS!!

  180.  #180Catherine on April 2, 2010 at 5:29 am

    Hello Rori!!!

    Thank you for all your advice so far – it has been really helpful to me at just the right time.

    I joined a sports club about a year ago because I was trying to improve my life after my parents died. I was not looking for a relationship, but I developed feelings for a man that I see there every week. He divorced many years ago and his only child died the same month my mother died so he is going through a similarly tough time. Partly because of this and partly because I see him every week anyway, I was happy to just join him for a drink after our matches. Earlier this year the inevitable happened and I spent the night with him and he didnt call me back to firm up the arrangements for the next week.

    I didnt get in touch with him and was about to go on holiday anyway so it was a month before I saw him again at the club and it was clear that our usual post match drinks weren’t going to happen anymore. It felt like he was actively avoiding any contact with me and I was just so shocked that after a year it had all ended after one night together.

    I decided that I should not have to leave the club just because of him, but I have backed off in terms of just not being around as much after macthes and not initiating any contact with him at all. Then last week he initiated a conversation and we were back to having fun and laughter again…… So now I am confused……I assumed things were over and now I am not sure if there is potential there.

    He isnt a player, I can feel there is affection there and I am glad he didn try and turn me into a ‘friend with benefits’. I am dating other men and have decided that if I cant get this guy out of my head/heart then I should switch clubs as its really hard to see him every week. I am not going to put my life on hold for him on the off chance.

    However, the key complicating factor is that although I would like to be in a relationship I am still feeling very down after my parents died and I am at a major life crossroad so I dont want to end up in a really deep heavy relationship, but I dont want a casual flings either. Its like I want an initimate, respectful relationship that progresses very very slowly and just gives me some pleasure and fun after a really bad few years in my life and it feels like he is the only one that really fits that bill. I dont think he realises this, but I dont know whether I should say anything either.

    Thoughts gatefully recevied!!


  181.  #181ruth on April 2, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    Oh Thanks Daria, I too feel upset with anyone labelling another woman a slut……Who is she to judge another women? For all I care I am a slut too and I love it and love me. I will spread my legs to any man or woman I fancy without getting paid or for favours whatever suits me best……. Ingrid were you a virgin when you got married? What makes you think you are holyier than though and an absolute righteous woman? I feel so triggered it is unbelievable. I feel mad :-(.


  182.  #182Turtle Girl on April 2, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    I have been withholding any real comment about this post. Slut, whore, loose—-these are all names that our society uses to degrade a woman who “does not follow the rules” about sex. Well, ya know what, anyone on this blog who wants to judge any women for doing whatever she wants with her sexuality can bite me. It makes me feel angry. Women are powerful and they have lots of power with sex.

    Think about what it was like a few thousand or more years ago before the male religions or Christianity. Check your history books women-they had female deities. That’s right-the world mostly had goddess religions and there is archaeological proof to this. All the Christian holidays were just pagan do overs. Female sexuality was honored not rebuked as something dirty. This post really pisses me off. Fuck all you women who are religious and judgmental about this. I would rather be a whore than a prude. There are no sluts. Our social engineering of the Madonna/whore split has all your minds all fucked up. Read a book for Christ’s sake.
    And Jesus was probably married to Mary Magdalen a beautiful slut in her own right.

  183.  #183Ingrid on April 2, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    Whatever Turtle Girl. OK. Your view.

    This post is NOT about labeling people. I think some of you are getting so side tracked you are jumping the gun here and making this thread about something it isn’t.

    Maybe some of you think (feel) it’s perfectly OK for a woman to be fooling around with a married man, but I do not feel this way. To me it is not OK. Unless as a couple, you agree to have an “open marriage”, which generally is not the norm. Some of you may feel this is fine, and that’s your right and opinion. It is certainly NOT how I feel. I have tons of hurt still in my heart over everything that has gone on in my marriage, and I am doing my best to learn, grow, and heal. I do not understand why some of you are feeling so angry or “triggered”or whatever. I feel you are over-reacting. If you get this upset when a person has a differing opinion than yours, why is judging now????? Essentially you are saying because I disagree with you, I am letting myself become “furious”, “angry”, or whatever. I want to have peace in my life, my family, my relationships, in all areas of my life. Don’t know about you all. Chaos is not fun, but sometimes we create the chaos ourselves, don’t we?

    Katarina: Yes, our self-esteem is crucial isn’t it. I do admit when your h commits adultery, it wrecks havoc on your self-esteem, your femininity, and your overall feelings about ourself as a woman. I recall what some president’s wife said though, Elenor Roosevelt think it was, “no one can make you feel inferior unless you let them”. How true. We women are such godesses, and no one should take this away from us.
    I am working on letting go of past pain, but living in the present and knowing all we have is today. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow has yet to be born. Today is beautiful and we are all special.

  184.  #184Ingrid on April 2, 2010 at 7:48 pm


    This is in the dictionary. It is what it is, whether you like the meaning of the word or not. Just thought I’d provide some additional synonyms here.

  185.  #185Daria on April 2, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    this feels bad.

    im guessing Ingrid must feel defensive and attacked.

    labeling another woman HOLDS ME BACK from healing, feeling my feelings, and telling the truth to myself

    Rori says that when we judge someone else we judge ourselves as well. For example, when i judge someone on the street as dangerous, i judge myself as a victim. etc. a million examples

    it’s about undoing what doesn’t work, like labeling. it’s about going to the FEELINGS. the feelings that turn into thought of labeling usually are : anger, humiliation, fear, powerlessness, sadness, etc

    i’m not here to attack each other although when i feel angry sometimes i fall back into old patterns of defense which are to attack… and judge…

    i am not the only one that judges as a pattern. many many many of us do this and i am practicing new options to heal it.

    i am practicing speaking my feelings. being a warrior for no. a warrior for no, i do not like to see women being put down. a warrior for i do not want to tolerate being put down.

  186.  #186Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    Hi SLUTS!!!!! – (lol 🙂 🙂 ) Sorry I had too

    I’m just catching up.. on these post.. lol

    Wow.. You know what, I had to stop and get look at this with humour. You know when I read stripper I thought, slut, whore etc etc… And as “SISTERHOOD” I don’t think we should just say Heyyyyyy, if she chooses to exploit her body and hit on married men and possibly the love of your life, then that’s just okay what does stripping or cheating have to di with it? I mean at somepoint the truth hurts and people who love you really will tell you. NOW WITH THAT BEING SAID………………. I realize for me the reason stripper or slut triggered anger was GUESS WHAT. (Funny how I real look in the mirror catches your attention.) Although I have never been with a married man or cheated.. Have I sluted around a little… (YES! I HAVE) Alot not really, But, common seriously? Slept with a guy too soon.. for sure, one night stand, YES! And was I hurt and disappointed yep.. Was I angry at myself not really until I see another person ( that I judged) Then I asked, hmmmmm why am I judging? Does this relate to me? Well kinda.. I suppose I’m angry at myself for at one point thinking I would get love thru sex.. Wrong!! That was then and this is now..

    I do think…… as sisterhood a women should leave married men alone.. That also go for girls hitting on friends boyfriends.. (I’m sure God has something better for them then a married man.) But, that will never change the reality of why people cheat and how they choose to get love.. And as nice as I am to women I trust my instincts.. and who I let into my world, it’s not like I would higher a part time stripper to be my nanny.. Would you? lol


  187.  #187Ingrid on April 2, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    I still do not understand where some of you are coming from at all when you say I am judging a woman by calling her a ____. (I dare say it anymore). This word is a noun. It is what it is. I am not judging anyone, FYI, or would I say anyone is any better than anyone else, because no one is any better than the next person. We’re all human with our foibles, etc.

    This is like saying, “that woman is a red-head”…..then someone chiming in saying, how dare you label her as a red-head. She’s a woman, and you shouldn’t judge her by her hair color. No matter what, she still is a red-head. Period. It’s not judging, it’s merely stating a fact. That’s all. Let’s not go here anymore OK? Negative energy. Let’s think positive.

    OK: has anyone bought Rori’s Siren program? I’d love to hear what you have learned from it. Just opened Rori’s e-letter on the program and watched some snippets. It looks so good! All about feelings. Soft on the outside, strong on the inside. Not trying to micro-manage everything, mindless chatter, worrying, planning, etc. WOW this is me. I need to learn how to be a siren and really want to get her program. Are they DVD’s you can put in your TV and watch???? Or just listen to?

  188.  #188Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Ingrid –

    I was suprised to hear how your counseling appointment went with your husband.. I feel shocked and suprised you aren’t standing up for yourself more.. Sorry I know it’s not easy, but, he told you he’s not ready to give up the stripper and you still stay? I mean are you just gonna give this guy the whole cake and spoon feed him? What’s the deal? Did you look up how to get your ex back? (check it out on google or I will post some things.)

    Your kids have to feel or see you pain, this is not healthy, Although the tough choices take time. I’m sure the other post might trigger anger which I hope they do and you can use that feeling in a good way.. (anger is really kinda saying – I don’t deserve this) apply that fuel towards him. I’m just gonna call it like I see it based on what I read sounds like.. It seems like your husband views you as somw weak person with out a backbone.. He knows you aren’t going anywhere… And I feel pissed to hear you asking him about the stripper instead of telling him what you are doing with your life.. I hear you and it triggers when I felt powerless in my life towards my abusive dad. I could not get out from his control and the need for his approval. I hope you find the courage to do what is healthy for you. AND NOT bargain with him.. He wont be healthy until you are.. But who cares about him… I wish I could tell what the guy advice I get says.. “Honey, if you want to be with her.. pack you bags and take you happy ass there. I need a commited husband and I refuse absolutely refuse to beg for you attention when there are other men who want your role in my life. Why don’t you take the whole month and really think about it. I’ve got a life to live and I think I’m better off with out you.. this is has gone on way too long I have had it..”

    Being a depressed pity party is not helping him… I say that because YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR POWER BACK AND STOP BASING YOUR SELF WORTH ON HIM!!!! PLEASE..

    My prayer for you:
    Father in Heaven, show Ingrid her self worth and plan for her life, her beauty, her worth, her power and guide her thoughts, deeds and actions in accordance to your will in her life. Ease her pain and show her she can trust in you.. And give her heart a refreshed renewed spirit and may your voice be strong in her ear, and recall to her memory the things she needs that will help her to be wise. Allow her to move forward and heal. Rebuke any lies that keeps her from knowing the precious plan and facor you have on her life. Fill her with her peace and comfort and unleash her from depression and know that she is of sound mind. Allow her to be the Victor and not the Victim.. Amen.. 🙂

    We all stay where we are it was comfortable and felt good the future is scary becuase it takes trust to not know what the future holds.. It’s better then this I’m sure.

  189.  #189Ingrid on April 2, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Hi Alicia:

    I really liked your post above. Quite insightful.

    Yours too Daria~

  190.  #190Daria on April 2, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Alicia – lol. Actually Rori has a full interview with a woman in one of her DVD’s who was a stripper at night and worked with children during the day.

    Now about the sisterhood not being with another woman’s boyfriend…

    well it’s up to everyone i suppose

    i personally don’t want to push a man that is pursuing me away becuase there’s another woman who is leaning forward all over him trying to force him to spend time with her – because if he was connitted to her he wouldnt be pursuing me

    BUT a vascillating man that says something like — I have a girlfriend… hope thats ok… that feels like a total turn off… lucky me

  191.  #191Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    I’m not judging you…… I agree she is a slut. What is so wrong with that? The bible talks about the harlot and the adultess very clearly. How can anyone argue with His word. If they are angry that is there anger to deal with. I’ll say it slut slut slut…

  192.  #192Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    Daria –

    LOL! Wow.. She does? haha

    Well, you know like the jude law thing, HOT NANNY.. in a power position in the home. I guess working with kids is one thing but, working it on my husband… Not so much. (or him on her, GOD FORBID)

    I’ll be having a MANNY!!

  193.  #193Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 8:54 pm


    I just ordered it.. I’m getting it this week. Daria has it.

  194.  #194Ingrid on April 2, 2010 at 8:55 pm


    The things my husband said were 2 years ago, not recently, in our counseling session. Maybe you misunderstood. Those were things he said waay back when I first discovered what was going on. I have just been thinking about them lately and feeling so yuccy because of remembering them. Things are different now. He hasn’t said anything like that now for 2 years…..

    Thank you so much for the prayer. Yes, I feel so helpless and trapped with no job, no where to go, that I am kind of in a bad place right now, and as someone said, Daria I think, first and foremost for me is finding a job so I can be self-sufficient. Then I can have some options. Then I can be strong. My h knows I need him, so he has probably felt he can do what he wants and I’ll always take him back. Not anymore will I if it ever happens again. We’re working on our marriage, and I’m working on ME!!!!!

  195.  #195Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Ingrid –

    Oh ya.. I thought that was like this week.. lol

    I was like Geesh lady what’s it gonna take.. haha

    Opps I misread.. Well good… Glad it was then and not now.

  196.  #196Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 9:07 pm



    “When a deep injury is done to us, we never recover
    until we forgive.” -Alan Paton

    Okay, even though it may seem impossible right now,
    the sooner you do this…the sooner you will…
    let go for good. You have to learn how to forgive
    the other person. But…first…you have to forgive yourself!

    If you’ve make mistakes…forgive yourself and go on.
    There is nothing you can do now to change the past,
    but you can affect your future.

    Forgiving yourself takes the pressure off of you
    for not being perfect. And, it gets rid of guilt.
    You must learn to forgive yourself before you can
    forgive others.

    Second, forgive him or her. If you don’t, you will be
    holding onto the past. You may carry anger and
    resentment around with you which will hurt you…more than them.

    Harboring negative emotions can make you bitter and
    resentful. It can permeate all areas of your life
    and it makes it harder to enjoy today.

    Not forgiving keeps you trapped exactly where you
    don’t want to be…holding onto memories of the past.
    Once you find forgiveness you will regain control of your life.

    It’s your choice!

  197.  #197Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 9:09 pm



    “Only when we are no longer afraid do we begin to live.”
    -Dorothy Thompson

    The end is just the beginning!

    It is your chance to begin a journey to discover
    who you are, to understand that you deserve more,
    and to learn what you truly want out of life.

    The reality is, for whatever reason, your relationship
    is over. But, that doesn’t mean your life is over.

    You may not like it, but the truth is…you have a
    choice. You can choose to continue to make your
    life miserable by holding on to something that doesn’t
    exist anymore. (Only in your hopes and dreams).

    Or…you can make the decision; that even though
    things didn’t work out the way you wanted…you
    are going to pick up the pieces of your life and
    “move on”.

    It really is your choice!

    After you go through the necessary and normal process
    of getting over this relationship, choose
    to take charge of your life and go after what you want.

    Find the courage to pull yourself up and not let this
    destroy you. You deserve all of the happiness and love
    you’ve always wanted and you can still have it, it will just
    be with someone new.

    There really is life after what’s-his-name. You just have
    to make the decision to let go and move on.

    You and you alone possess the power to do whatever you want.

    Read these lessons. Start applying the lessons into
    your life. Take little steps each day and you will be
    amazed that you really are starting to feel better!

    You will survive!

  198.  #198Daria on April 2, 2010 at 9:13 pm

    well i don’t agree that she’s a slut. that’s a put down. if we can call her a slut then we can call ingrid a stupid woman who deserves that her husband cheats on her because she takes him back

    these type of labels are not helpful.

    and judging is not feminine or feeling or what we’re working towards here…

  199.  #199Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    “Stop Talking On Eggshells” here are a few tips from a course that might help you

    (I saw this news letter in my email )

    Move toward the connection and communication that
    you want…

    1. Identify your complaints and what you want to be different.

    Write down what your specific complaints are about your
    situation and how you’d like it to be. Until you’re clear about
    where you are and where you’d like to be going, you’re not
    going to be able to get there.

    It’s like telling your GPS that you’d like to go “somewhere”
    without having a specific destination in mind if you don’t get

    What is it that separates you and tears you further apart?

    Be specific about the thoughts, actions, and words, not
    only from your partner but also that you say and do.

    It’s human nature to look outward toward someone else
    as being THE fault but we challenge you to also look at
    how you may have contributed.

    Then ask what does being “loving” mean to you?

    What does it mean to your partner?

    Does it mean being kind to each other even when it’s

    Does it mean more physical touch?

    Ask yourself the same question about communication
    and be specific how you’d like to be able to communicate
    and be heard.

    2. Recognize how you and your partner shut down to
    one another and then learn how to open.

    You mention the “f” word–fear.

    It’s been said that fear is just “false evidence appearing

    Write down all of your fears that are keeping the two
    of you separated and put a checkmark beside the ones
    that you know to be absolutely true and happening at
    this moment.

    Chances are you don’t have very many checkmarks
    because if you’re like most people, when you’re fearful,
    you’re either reliving the past or worrying about a future
    that hasn’t happened.

    You’re not living in this present moment and what’s
    happening right now.

    So figure out what thoughts are shutting you down from
    each other and whether there is any truth to them or

    Even if there’s some truth to your fears, you don’t have
    to let them keep you from communicating in a loving
    way with each other.

    But you first have to learn how to open your hearts
    to each other, even when it’s difficult.

    Opening your heart means feeling inside you and
    knowing that you love this person.

    Opening your heart means that you are choosing
    to go toward what you want instead of away from
    what you want.

    Opening your heart means stopping your habitual
    reactions, breathing and pulling your focus away
    from your mind chatter to your heart area.

    Opening your heart doesn’t mean that you have
    no boundaries but it does mean that you want
    to understand.

    Opening your heart is probably the most important
    shift you’ll need to make to create open connection
    and communication.

    And it only takes one person to open and to stop
    the pattern that the two of you normally follow.

    3. Make a commitment to changing and make
    agreements that support your commitment.

    Talk together and see if you both are willing to
    make the commitment to changing some things
    about how you are with each other.

    If you can make a commitment and some
    agreements, that’s great.

    You might make the agreement to sit and be
    together doing something that you used to

    You might make the agreement to be kinder
    to each other, spelling out exactly what that

    If you can’t get a commitment or agreements
    from your partner, go ahead and make them

    Even one person changing can change the
    dynamic in a relationship.

    Will that relationship be everything the person
    wants if he or she is the only one actively

    Maybe or maybe not…

    In any case, you have nothing to lose unless
    you want to stay stuck in your relationship
    as you are.

    A loving connection and communication is
    created one moment at a time–and that’s no

    Take this moment right now to start yours!

  200.  #200Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    I think this has gone over board..

    Typing out a…… ” the women who is cheating and having an affair with a married man, who takes her clothes for money as a living” is all fact but too lengthy for me.. People can call her what they want. They can call me what they want. It’s about them..

  201.  #201Daria on April 2, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    I feel really angry and will continue to say NO to putting a woman down.

    It’s about THEM and ME and US and the them that show up on the blog and put other women down are missing out on their own healing

    I feel so angry.

    I feel furious reading ” it’s too lengthy for me… ”

    There are women on this blog who are having affairs with married men.

    there are women on this blog who strip or have family members who do

    there are women on this blog who have actual sex for money

    there are women on the blog whose husbands are cheating on them

    these are all women. They all deserve to not be put down.

  202.  #202Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 10:19 pm

    Daria – don’t you seeeee it (the lesson here)?? lol..

    YOU feel angry, I feel fine.. You anger doesn’t make me change.. That’s a great tool.. (inner bonding) haha.

    I can’t control you and you not me.. or US ANYONE else..

    Be at peace my friend.. it’s okay

  203.  #203Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 10:21 pm

    I mean some people might take it as a compliment..

    Jenna Jameson would be like hellll ya I am..

    And I don’t think in the bedroom it’s a put down. It just is what it is.. depending on what aspect it’s in regards too.

  204.  #204Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    We call people who drinking problems alcholics.. it just depends. Drug users – people who use drugs – people who spend too much money – shopaholics – there is no “proper” word for a lady or man who is cheating.. That just what it is.. I guess mistress or man whore.. I mean, someone needs a more polite word, maybe betrayer.. or loose women (of no restraint) Society is just like that.. like I said, I can own the face that I went thru a little bit of a slut phase and I don’t feel bad about it. So I dont feel bad for saying it either, Calling her a cheating mistress wouldn’t be any better. Yet it’s fact.. (the action of cheating is fact and she is a mistress) What do we call her.. Just stripper? That set off people too.

  205.  #205Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    *own the fact – opps

  206.  #206Rori Raye on April 2, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    Turtle Girl, and Ingrid – I get you both. Turtle Girl – you’re mad, and that’s exciting and great…and I wonder if you would consider letting your rage out as totally as you can – but WITHOUT making someone else wrong…because that’s exactly what you’re mad about! Ingrid has a strong opinion and is making you and other women “wrong.” I’m not asking you to ignore that rage – just to take your comment and translate what you’ve written from an “opinion” and “argument” into total feeling messages – it will so help you with a man. Example…”I feel so sad and frustrated and pissed off when I look at history. I want to be a goddess, and feel connected to the part of history where women were in power, when god was goddesses, when female sexuality was worshipped, and feel so crappy and angry that it isn’t that way – that it mostly hasn’t been that way. And when I hear anyone, especially another woman, putting down any other woman, it makes me feel furious…The whole Madonna/whore thing just feels fucked up, and sometimes I want to jump on people who agree with that…I love Mary Magdalene, as Jesus did. I feel beautiful, and proud to be a “slut” – because whatever that might mean to some, it means beautiful, relaxed, sensuous woman to me. I hate feeling labeled, and I hate hearing labels about anyone. A person who lies, lies. Who steals anything, including a man, steals. It has nothing to do with being “sexual.”…and on and on. See if you can express yourself in a way that feels powerful and full-bodied – but doesn’t involve anyone else.

    And Ingrid – can you see how by being opinionated, no matter how smart you are, or logical you are, or “correct” by standards (like a dictionary) you are – you will trigger people? If this is what you want, you are certainly entitled. But in working to turn your marriage around – this will help you to see how you are working against yourself. We all feel for you and your situation and wish you the greatest of luck in this marriage, and I personally admire you for the firmness of your belief. But no matter how you say”opinions” – it’s “boy” work. On a woman among men doing business – it’s the way to go – sometimes (not always). But that’s not what we’re doing here. We’re learning a new language that’s pure expression, and meant for ROMANCE. When you speak opinion – it comes off as hard and almost self-righteous. It doesn’t matter how right you are. No one wants to hear how wrong they are. And that’s what we’re practicing here. Expressing yourself without making anyone else wrong. It’s challenging, yes, and I invite you to “translate” your normal “blogging” voice and try it differently here…Love, Rori

  207.  #207Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 10:37 pm

    Daria.. That’s all about you. The other women if they feel put down.. who is to say? Maybe they do or maybe they don’t.. If they feel good then someone elses comment is going to get to them. I think it’s more of a fact then a put down. So I’ll go with mistress.. Like I said come up with a word? The “other” woman?? What do you suggest? What would make you feel better?

  208.  #208Alicia on April 2, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    I feel good.. I feel alive.. I feel peaceful.. I feel forgiven.. I transending energy in the air.. I feel empathy for hurting people.. I feel passionate when anger is used in a healthy way.. I feel hopeless with society and the double standard of women.. I feel frustrated with rules and feel limited or confined by expectations. I feel free when I speak out. I feel sorry if I offended anyone, yet empowered to learn tact..

    And you and me are free to be you and meee.. daddddaaa da da.. (old kid song) 🙂

  209.  #209Rori Raye on April 2, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    Catherine, Welcome, and I know you’ll get so much help here. Please start reading about Circular Dating – that will fill in the gap for you between your idea of a “fling” and a “serious relationship” – and I look forward to hear how you’re doing. I admire your willingness to switch clubs just to make it easier, less stressful, and more pleasant for yourself…Love, Rori

  210.  #210dorothea on April 2, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    I feel so mad about the above mentioned fallacious premise of the debate about words (like ‘slut’). omg I feel outrage.

    I don’t want to interject my logic into some things that have been said along the way by the sirens regarding this matter. I feel afraid. I feel scared to chime in because I feel afraid of being judged or rubbing the wrong way. I feel meek and timid when I know I am very knowledgable about something and considered an expert but don’t want to clear something up or simply be right in a debate because I don’t want to make the other person feel attacked (which really means I don’t want them to attack me as a result of feeling attacked by me). I feel afraid of being attacked.

    omg. I feel so mad about these things, but the former me would have said I feel so mad at you all because you’re talking in circles without actually claiming anything valid (come on, the word ‘cunt’ is in the dictionary also, and it presents its connotations in all its offensive glory. Just because it is in our document of words and their uses doesn’t make a difference. That’s where it’s SUPPOSED to be, right next to ‘cunoniaceae’ [trees, shrubs].)

    But it’s not the statement with which I disagree that is really making me feel angry. You Sirens have not caused me any anger!! I feel so happy to experience the difference between being caused anger and being TRIGGERED to feel anger. You have actually done nothing to cause me to feel anger. I am triggered for a million totally *personal* reasons, it seems. Personal fears and traumas. That have nothing to do with the matter at hand. It’s amazing how emotions are inspired.

    For anyone who is interested, here is a fairly complete history of the word ‘slut’:

    c.1400, “a dirty, slovenly, or untidy woman,” probably cognate with dialectal Ger. Schlutt “slovenly woman,” dialectal Swed. slata “idle woman, slut,” and Du. slodder “slut,” but the ultimate origin is doubtful. Chaucer uses sluttish (late 14c.) in reference to the appearance of an untidy man. Also “a kitchen maid, a drudge” (mid-15c.; hard pieces in a bread loaf from imperfect kneading were called slut’s pennies, 18c.). Meaning “woman of loose character, bold hussy” is attested from mid-15c.; playful use of the word, without implication of loose morals, is attested from 1660s.

    “Our little girl Susan is a most admirable slut, and pleases us mightily.” [Pepys, diary, Feb. 21, 1664]

    Sometimes used 19c. as a euphemism for bitch to describe a female dog. There is a group of North Sea Gmc. words in sl- that mean “sloppy,” and also “slovenly woman,” and that tend to evolve toward “woman of loose morals” (cf. slattern, also English dial. slummock “a dirty, untidy, or slovenly person,” 1861; M.Du. slore “a sluttish woman”).
    I feel so powerful over my emotions. I feel like an open flower. I can have emotions without them controlling me. I can observe them and learn from them and listen to them. I don’t have to knee-jerk react because I don’t want to feel them in the first place. I can feel through them and get to know myself even better, and heal myself.

  211.  #211Daria on April 2, 2010 at 11:23 pm

    Dorothea you Slut! Get on im immediately !! I miss you!!!

  212.  #212Daria on April 2, 2010 at 11:26 pm

    OKay and meanwhile please explain what you’re talkinga bout:

    what do you mean you feel anger and we didnt cause it… what do you mean I can feel through them and get to know myself even better, and heal myself

    tell more please!!!

  213.  #213Tina on April 2, 2010 at 11:40 pm

    This reminds me of when my mom and her friends would get really piss drunk and call each other sluts or bitches, cunts lol

    You slut!

    fuck you whore!

    Your a fucken slut!


    You bitch!

    ok, stop calling me a bitch

    You bitch!




    and on and on they would go till the wee hours of the morning calling each other names.

  214.  #214Daria on April 2, 2010 at 11:44 pm

    Dorothea is not getting online. do you think she still loves me? i feel so empty staring at the buddy list. i hope shes not out there chatting with other friends… grrr….

    im gonna lean back! hear that DOROTHEA!! im leannign back!!

    im not gonan text YOU!! dammit!!!


  215.  #215Tina on April 2, 2010 at 11:45 pm

    Drinking beer and smoking ciggies. I have pts from that lol.

  216.  #216Daria on April 2, 2010 at 11:46 pm

    Aww Tina – hugs!!

  217.  #217Tina on April 2, 2010 at 11:53 pm

    Thanks Daria, their getting to old to drink like they used too but yeah. They all have health problems now, my mom is on oxygen, her friend has really bad arthritis and diabetes and to many to list. They suffered a lot back in the day. They grew up on the reservation so yeah anyway, i dont really want to get into that tonight ugh!

  218.  #218Daria on April 3, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Tina – hey my Godsister almost died from cirrhosis, we all used to drink together, I started having blackouts and doing crazy things like stripping at parties and forgetting (once).

    my liver is healing now, my sister didn’t die, twice, she swelled up with fluid like 8 gallons of it a week for a year, now she’s better, they put a shunt in her liver last year, no more drinking

    we’re blessed my Godson came out alright, she was drinking with him, almost died after the pregnancy, was skin and bones… wow

    guywhohadababy got pancreatitis

    for me it just showed in my BEHAVIOR for them it was in their body

    i think i stopped just in time…

  219.  #219Tina on April 3, 2010 at 12:49 am

    Daria, I’m glad to hear you are taking care of yourself 🙂

  220.  #220dorothea on April 3, 2010 at 7:39 am

    LOL i feel loved and wanted, thanks daria. i’ve been working non stop…first with the campuses campaign which went great…you gotta see all the media coverage nationwide. woooohooooo. and now i’m puttin 12 hour days in at this really cool convention.

    ‘aface’ had a brilliant idea of meeting me at the convention and taking me for a coffee break cuz he’d like to see me but i’m so busy busy. i love it! text me girl!

    love u sirens! love love love u so much.

  221.  #221Katarina on April 3, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Alicia –

    What you’re saying feels clear to me. In order for the word “slut” to have a deragatory connotation you must be judging that behavior as negative.

    I feel very confused by this argument as I can totally see both sides. I had a group of friends that at the time used to greet one another casually (college yrs) with “hey slut.” This didn’t feel like oppression as I didn’t see MYSELF as behaving in a way to be frowned upon, and while I may have questioned the healthiness of some of the women’s behavior and therefore worried about them I loved them dearly and meant not to make them feel bad about their choices. I could be wrong but I don’t think any of us felt jugded nor isolated?

    I worry that I often find myself in this position of not having strong feelings either way. Does this mean I am easily influenced and not know where I stand? I dunno. Maybe this just isnt a trigger for me.

  222.  #222Daria on April 3, 2010 at 4:54 pm

    I feel fine with using the word slut, or any other way, in a friendly way. I do this often and Take The Power of Words.

    I don’t feel good when it, or jiggabuggie, xzy, whatever, is used as a put down. It’s the put down energy that doesn’t feel good.

  223.  #223Katarina on April 3, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    Yes good point Daria. That does make the user of the put down energy appear smaller and more insecure themselves. Less Goddessy. My Mother (God love her) was always very stingy with the complements towards other women and quick to point out alleged flaws. That felt icky. Made me more insecure myself since she was so critical of the looks of women on the covers of fashion magazines!!!

  224.  #224Daria on April 3, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Katarina – I do it too! practicing to unlearn. It feels GOOD to realize wow, that usually I would judge, but actually, wow, that looks really good actually!

  225.  #225Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 9:00 am

    Good morning everyone, I hope you all had a nice Easter.

    Thank you Rori for your comments. I will take them to heart. I do not want to appear “masculine” or judgmental at all, and often times, because I do have religious convictions, I seem to come across and labeled as judgmental when that is not my intention whatsoever. I just want to do what is right. Right in the eyes of the Lord, and I am not ashamed to say so. I desire to live in the truth, and do what is right, and what is honorable, and I believe in fidelity in marriage. I feel truth is not relative. There is right in this life, and there is wrong. In this day and age, many think the truth is merely what is “right for them”, I do not think this way. In any event, I love your blog and your work, and what you have to say and have learned about relationships, and this is why I am here.

    I would love to hear what some of you have learned about Rori’s Siren program. Can you share some bullet points here? I’d really love to hear them.

    Read Rori’s e-letter last night about how she sat on the floor with her daughter and simply was content, not jumping up instantly to dote on her husband one time, and how he “came to her, and she smiled and was open” and how at that moment her marriage changed for the better. I’d love to discuss this some more, if anyone has any feedback. I so want to learn and grow to be my better self, and would love to hear from anyone who has learned in a similar way. Thank you ahead of time for your responses. Alicia: thank you so much again for the next “lesson”. They have all been super helpful to me.
    God Bless~

  226.  #226Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 9:03 am

    Hi Orna: Thank you BTW for what you had to say above in 151 I think. You are so very wise and helpful too!!!!

    Daria: I am curious, and want to ask you a question. If a married man, a handsome gorgeous one I might add was coming on to you, what would you do? If he wanted to “pursue you”? would you go out with him, knowing he had a wife and family? Just curious.

  227.  #227Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 10:24 am

    Dear Tina:

    First and foremost, KNOW my intention is not to offend you or anyone on here in sisterhood. This is what we are here for. Yes? I think so. However, Tina, I do not quite understand your need to use swear words and/or be so crude in your talk. I feel to swear and use such words are completely un-feminine, IMO, and I, frankly take offense to it. I feel, and can only speak from me and my heart, but I feel women who are crude and speak in swear words and crude language are really surrendering their goddess-ness. I feel it makes a women way less feminine. I feel it lowers us women to a much lower level than we should be lowered. I feel we women are godesses, we are feminine too, and that crude language is the antithesis of a feminine woman. I feel women should be soft and vulnerable. When we women talk, act and are anything less, we are not only depriving ourselves, but really hurting the next generation too. I feel strongly about this. I feel a real “lady” would never talk obscenity. This is how I choose to be, do you? I hope you do, why? because we are ALL chosen Godesses, that’s why. We are all the women in our homes, and in our lives. Because we have so much power in our homes and I feel we should all be examples of it. I feel all we women, should be the nurterors of the next generation. I feel we should all know there is so much more to life than merely this life. I feel it is what is done to help others that is most important, rather than trying to be “sexy”and etc……..YES, I would love my h for over 20 years to love me there is no tomorrow, maybe he will, maybe he won’t, still, I want to love others and make a difference in their lives. I feel, life has got to be more than just about ourselves, when it gets right down to it friends. What do you think?

  228.  #228Lucy on April 5, 2010 at 10:34 am


    1. Tina was actually quoting OTHER people when she used those words in this particular case.

    2. I feel curious about what you FEEL when you read those words. (Not what you THINK, but what you FEEL.)


  229.  #229Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Hi Lucy! I have never seen you here before so I say Hello. You asked what I felt when such words were expressed. OK. Here is what I felt from my heart. I felt sick, that women could feel nothing is wrong with their men, having affairs and/or fooling around with other women. This makes me feel sick actually. Literally, how there can be just so many men today who do not take marriage and/or committment remotely seriously. I feel this is such a shame, and my heart grieves for such.

    I also feel men and us women desire commitment, and a man who loves us with their whole heart and wants to be faithful. I feel this is human nature and what God intended. I feel anyone who goes against God’s plan will be eventually thawarted in their plans, that God’s plans are here for a reason and purpose, to show us all how to live happily and forever. My parents just celebrated their 60th anniversary. They say to me, “live your live as God says and you will have life and happiness” I agree. I feel life was meant to be lived with one other person, our one and only, and to play around only postpones it. Do YOU have a one and only?
    I think I do, yet he had a mid-life crisis which left me devastated, and learning how to recover from it.

  230.  #230Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Dear Lucy;

    I feel I do not want to be a woman with an obscene and/or filthy tongue. I want to be different. I want to be a Lady.

  231.  #231Regan Tate on April 5, 2010 at 11:44 am

    My opinion of this “stripper” infatuation is sheer immaturity. It doesn’t appear he has thought through what a long term relationship w/ somone who doesthis for a living would be. As has been pointed out, some men can be husbands to these women, but it must be pretty tough for your ordinary guy who probably has the insecurities of most people. Since he is “off the chain” a bit not having empathy for you oryour family& choosing a female with whom a relationship is temporary at best & willing to risk wife & kids for it, you may want to look into the possibilty he is a narcissist who is not capable of feeling or giving what any woman building a family needs for basic security.
    I always wonder what the world would be like if women would quit screwing each other over, and making lives about thepursuit of men. (especially men who are cheating on someone else & would not make trustworthy partners anyway?) Is getting laid that important to the average female to risk your own integrity (and possibly health?)
    I made a decision a long time ago that I would NEVER do this to another woman for ANY reason, and that there is no amunt oflooks, money, charm, etc. that would entice me into a relationship that would be stealing from another lady. You get flowers, meals, good sex & kind words, and she get the kids, scrubbing toilets and providing all the things that make the home work. And you are trading your integrity for a guy who if you do win him will cheat on you at a future date.

  232.  #232Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Hi Daria:

    I hear you have Rori’s wonderful Siren program. I am totally going to buy it when I land a job…..(pray for me that i will find a job most soon, as it will give me back my independence. )

    Dear Daria, as I inquired above, I’d love to know what you have learned from Rori’s magnificent program. Can you share some bullet points, and can you answer my question above? Here it is again in case you forgot it:

    IF you Daria were pursued by a gorgeous and handsome yet married man, what would you do? What if he was pursing YOU big time, yet you knew he had a wife and family? I am curious what you would do?

  233.  #233tinque on April 5, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Ingrid – yes we are ALL goddessses, and goddesses have many aspects and facets to them including rage, including ugly bits, including having “evil” feelings and thoughts.
    This forum is in part to release some of these parts in a safe environment.
    And sometimes we feel so deeply angry or a nasty piece inside is aching to release, and sometimes a good way to release is through words that you think are unfeminine.
    I am enormously feminine, about as girly girl as you can get. I have worked very hard to find my deep heart and be as much in my innate love as possible, but I swear sometimes, and it feels really good to do so.
    I absolutely agree with you that is wrong for a man or a woman to cheat when in a committed relationship. I say often, finish old business before starting new.
    That said I’m not convinced your husband is having a mid-life crisis. From everything you have said here, he sounds toxic to me, but I’m not there, so I don’t really know. I can only go by what you say.
    I also don’t believe one should stay married if it’s not good, no make that awesome, for all involved.
    Yes it’s damaging for the children. I know I came from that and at a very young age, BUT I firmly believe that it’s more damaging for them to be exposed to anxiety, strain, ill feelings, stress between their parents. Try as hard as you might to hide it from them, they DO feel it.
    It is most definitely true that when a man loves us with his whole heart, not only will he be faithful, it wouldn’t even occur to him to be otherwise.
    For when we love back with our whole heart, there is a wonderful unshakable bond which includes love of course but also passion and amazing hot, heavy sex. When two people love that deeply, they want to express it in the most intimate way possible. There is no better feeling to be as one and feel nothing but pureness, and to “die a little” in intense orgasm feels incredible.
    Having sex with deeply connected hearts is like nothing else.
    I know all of this because I have all of this, and from where I’ve come, well… I suppose it’s a testament to me, me who is a very soft, feminine goddess who adores her man and who loves sex with her man and who loves to swear now and then.

  234.  #234tinque on April 5, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    And I also love being “chaste” though I would much rather be caught. But only by K.

  235.  #235dorothea on April 5, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    I love having an obscene/filthy tongue. I don’t feel unfeminine for it. It’s just who i am and where I’m from. I admit I am always surprised when men tell me they like this side of me, because society tells us all that it is something of low class and to be avoided. But I feel gotten and comfortable and proud when a man compliments me on this side of myself.

    There’s a time and place for everything, so when I am “letting it all hang out” and being my truest self, I’m probably cussing. Now that I am thinking about it, the guys I date don’t cuss like me. Actually, I dated this one guy for a while who refused to swear in front of me. I had so much (failed) fun trying to get him to cuss. Just because I’m cussing doesn’t mean men don’t still fuckin know to treat me like a lady.

    The important thing to keep in mind if you’re going to be a sailor like me is to never use obscene or filthy language against someone. This should be absolutely out of the question. Yuck I feel so overcome with sadness and shame thinking about any time I did this. Aw I love my sad ashamed feelings.

  236.  #236dorothea on April 5, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    Ingrid, girl let’s use some feeling messages! You don’t like obscenities (which are often indicate FULLness of feeling), so practice going the opposite way by using truly beautiful, expressive words to describe how we feel about things and our opinions.

    I see that you said you feel you don’t want to be a filthy or obscene woman. This is getting much closer than “I feel we women are godesses, we are feminine too, and that crude language is the antithesis of a feminine woman. I feel women should be soft and vulnerable.” Those are THOUGHTS. Not feelings. Saying “I feel” instead of I think is a good start to using feeling messages but there are not feelings in your statements. Basically a series of masculine-like conclusions that utterly lack softness (though your ideas themselves are inherently soft) and opinions that put distance between your heart and others’. I know this isn’t what you intend to do, and you’re just getting the hang of feeling messages.

    I am going to imagine I am coming from where you come from regarding obscenities and cussing and ride the feelings that come up:

    I feel too delicate and soft inside for obscenities. Obscenities feel like garbage littered across my velvety goddess tapestry. I don’t want to pass a stained tapestry down to future generations of women. I feel hopeless and helpless thinking about preserving their femininity. I feel threatened and worried seeing casual swearing. I feel my heart racing and a deep panic that slowly trickles up my spine and into my brain through my ears. I feel pressure around my eyes reading these strong swear words. I feel protective of my inner goddess.

    You get the idea. Now, Ingrid, show me some feelings! Maybe my post right now to you rubs you the wrong way and you feel angry or irritated or confused. Or maybe it is helpful to you and you feel gratitude, or a softness. Tell us how you FEEL. And then your one word emotion has much feeling underneath it. A tightness in your chest. A knot in your stomach. A release from your shoulders. A pressure around your eyes. A clenching in your teeth. A total numbness.

    Using this Siren-y way of communicating with yourself and others while on this rollercoaster of life will automatically connect the true you with others, especially men. It is soft and feminine. It requires no strategizing or construction of sentences to say things in a way that will produce a positive reaction in others. It is just pure presence with yourself. This is a great gift to give to yourself and others. It also requires no cussing at all :D. Unless you want it to, of course.

  237.  #237Tina on April 5, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    Ingrid, I really dont know what to think lol.

  238.  #238Tina on April 5, 2010 at 7:31 pm

    “Bad Tina” would think “go eff yourself Ingrid”
    “Good Tina” would say um you have good points Ingrid, this is an opportunity for personal growth” . How do I feel? ok well your intention was not to offend me, your offended by my choice of swear words, swear words are un lady like. I really have to go think about this.

  239.  #239Tina on April 5, 2010 at 7:53 pm

    I could apoligize for offending you. How does apoligizing feel for me? I guess it’s not about me, since your the offended one. Your asking me to think here so I’m thinking. I’m feeling resistance. I dont know why I”m feeling resistance, I just do.

  240.  #240Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    To Dorthea:

    Thank you for your post above #235. It had some really great advice in it, exactly what I am trying to learn. How to speak and express myself more in “feeling messages”. I guess these are much more non-threatening than thoughts or opinions. And when it comes to relating to men, and our significant other, especially important.!!! Right? This will be a new way of communicating for me, but I am willing to give it a try. Trouble is: you don’t feel all the time, sometimes you only think, without feeling anything. Maybe not though. Maybe it’s quite possible my feelings are buried somewhere underneath, and I need to get more in tune with them. Will try.

    I feel very happy that so many of you are responding to this thread. I feel very appreciative that we are all so different, and all have such unique opinions and thoughts about stuff. This makes me smile. If I could find out how to post a happy face I would, but I’m a computer moron. lol

    Thank you for responding.

    I feel very appreciative of Rori and her wonderful suggestions to all us women, it sure seems to be a marvelous new way of living, much more in tune with our inner natures, as women. It’s so funny, this weekend my husband and I were sitting somewhere, I forget where, and I started using the wave motion with my hands, dreaming of an ocean I was in, and YES, my hubby put his hand right then on my leg, and then up my leg…….it felt so tingly. He still makes me swoon after 22 years. This feels soooooo nice. I am sooooo in love with my husband still. This feels awesome but scary too, that he could give even an inch of his heart or body away to anyone else but me. Or has given it away in the past. This makes me feel crushed. It makes me feel so hurt like I can’t even function. It makes me want to become not so mushy and soft inside, but stronger. I feel very afraid that I won’t be able to.

  241.  #241Simply Shannon on April 5, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    I feel angry and frustrated reading that these words are somehow from God or “Christian” or religious in nature. Phew. I was an atheist for a long time and only recently a Christian. Hearing “Christian” people spout off ugly words like they are from God is one of the reasons I fell so far away from God. The exact people who God wants to come to Him are the same ones being chased away by these judgmental opinions.

    John 8:7 “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    Dorothea: Great post to Ingrid about feeling messages. It felt good to read your feelings translation.

    Ingrid: I feel a little concerned venting about this topic because I know you are new here and learning. I don’t want to chase you off. People get triggered here all the time. That’s how this works. We practice here. The feeling messages you wrote in #239 felt really good to read. Thank you.

    Thought it might be helpful to post a link that Dock posted long ago with a list of feelings. This was very helpful for me.


    Also, to followup on what Dorothea mentioned, any “I feel” statement not followed by a feeling message is a thought.
    I feel that = I think that…
    I feel like = I think that…
    I feel [noun] = I think that…

    You can’t feel a “like” or a “that”. Make sense?

    Alicia: I feel good about what you said too about a word being just a label and not malicious. My last boyfriend’s pet name was “hooker”. It was never meant in anger or judgement. Literally just a name that I thought sounded funny. Certainly no one else would be confused who I was talking about. 🙂

    Blessings and love, Shannon

  242.  #242Ingrid on April 5, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    Hi Shannon. Yes, it makes sense, what you say above. Thanks. And thanks for providing that link to that list of feeling words. That’s really helpful. So you are saying if you say “I feel that” or “I feel like”…..it’s the same as saying I think…….hummmm interesting.

    I’d like to know, just what is the purpose of this blog? Is it to practice feelings messages or what? I thought it was to provide advice and opinions on what the title of a particular thread is. Can someone tell me? It’s very unusual everyone writing how they’re peeved off and so angry. I don’t quite get it. lol or get why the anger. I’m not angry at anyone for anything. I feel very content and happy, and can’t wait to snuggle in bed with my hubby when he comes home in about 5 minutes, in which case I will exit this place asap. lol…..

  243.  #243Simply Shannon on April 6, 2010 at 7:30 am

    Ingrid, Yes, this board is for practicing feeling messages. And not all of them are anger. That’s just one feeling.

    “I’m not angry at anyone for anything.”

    When my husband cheated on me, I felt very angry. When I think about it, I still feel angry about being betrayed. That felt horrible. When I forgave him the first time, I felt nervous and scared it would happen again. And to be betrayed twice, ugh. I felt worthless and yet “better” than him.

  244.  #244Ingrid on April 6, 2010 at 8:01 am

    Thank you Shannon.

    Are you using an example of feeling messages, or did your husband betray you twice too? Just curious.

    Question: How do you ladies become soft on the outside and strong on the inside? I’d like to learn this. You see, I have been in such a high profile and high functioning job for so long, um probably about 25 years, that I became just the opposite, and it’s a hard pattern to break out of. I appear so competent on the outside, calm and self-sufficient, while I’m not really this way at all, b ut had to be in my profession I was in for so many years, which I came to hate. Inside my feelings are a ball of mush, and I wear them, or have worn them on my sleeve much of my life. I want to learn how to be stronger inside, and softer outside, but don’t know where to start to learn this.

    Can someone help me with a few beginning steps? OK feeling my feelings is one step. Yes. Now I feel anxious, which I feel a lot, and overwhelmed with all I need to get done today.

  245.  #245Ingrid on April 6, 2010 at 8:06 am

    OH forgot, I meant to clarify, I don’t feel angry at anyone on here. All the comments above in this blog, did not stir my feelings in any way. Just my thoughts.

    Shannon: Yes, I was so angry with my husband when he was unfaithful. I felt so hurt, I felt devastated, I felt helpless, afraid, ugly, fat, anxious every minute of the day, sad, I felt extreme grief, I felt dis-jointed, I felt furious, I do not like these feelings. It causes me much strife. I do not want to re-live them, yet when I think of the past, I do. I want to be free of them. I have forgiven my husband many times, yet I still feel these unpleasant feelings at times.

  246.  #246Ingrid on April 6, 2010 at 10:07 am

    OK now I am confused. Many have expressed on here how mad, angry they were at ME for ME using the word SLUT to describe the woman my husband chose to have an affair with. And there are numerous posts about such, how offended some are, how angry you feel about labeling a woman as such, etc., etc.,yet in the next breath, like Daria, you say “hello, you slut” to someone on here, another poster, a nice woman for sure, and now I am really confused. I do not feel this is funny at all, as this thread about all I have gone through is not a joke. I have been in real pain over it, and I feel offended that some of you are making a joke out of it. I feel hurt that some of you may not understand what it’s like to be married to a man you love for over 20 years, and then when he betrays you, you are left alone and frightened. I feel unsure of even who each of you are on this place, and just why you are here. I was hoping some of you could offer me some good advice without spouting off in a rage episode and making it all about you. I feel disappointed that I cannot get some good advice which is what I am seeking.

    Thank you Alicia, you are the only one who has offered me anything tangible here in response to my post, wherein I poured my heart out, letting you all know my situation. I do not understand how some of you can be so cruel and un-feeling.
    Maybe you are not married, and do not have kids so you cannot relate.

  247.  #247Simply Shannon on April 6, 2010 at 11:10 am

    Ingrid: Not sure if Rori will post to you directly regarding your questions.

    I can relate to all you have said and been through. My ex cheated on me twice (I found calls to an escort agency the first time and calls to a local singles hotline the second time. Not confirmed either time but intent was there and enough for me to say “enough”). I have children. I’m also a Christian and very active in my church. Same as you with the whole job thing. Always busy, always making things happen, always “doing”.

    I’ll post back more later but you’re doing good continuing to notice your feelings. Don’t stuff them down and try to pretend you feel fine. Write it out here. Just keep going.

  248.  #248Ingrid on April 6, 2010 at 11:20 am

    Dear Shannon:

    Thank you just so much for being vulnerable and for posting. I feel the pain you are feeling Shannon with having a hubby who is/has been unfaithful. Gosh this is just soooo hard. How are you today I ask?

    How are things?

  249.  #249Daria on April 6, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Hi Ingrid,

    I feel confused. I feel angry. I post here on everythread. the blog is free to post on, and is not usually focused on only the post at the top of the thread. much other things go on in the discussions.

    I feel free to jokingly adress other women as slut because my intent is not to put them down.

    I’ve posted much above about taking back the power of words, and how its the energy of put down that feels bad and not the word.

    I feel concern for your situation. You’ve received help here. This is not by any means YOUR thread or blog however.

    It is MINE. Bruhahaha a (evil Daria Goddess).

    I may seem non compassionate and right now I feel angry and closed off.

  250.  #250Ingrid on April 6, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    Hi Daria:

    I get it! I appreciate you and everyone here so much! I am beginning to grasp so much, finally. I am a thick head. Some things take a while, but I am getting so much more in tune with my feelings, like never before. If you read my post above, you will see what an over-functioning person I was, and tend to be. I want to just “be”. Finally.

    Happy Easter. The Lord has risen~ Praise the Lord~ We have new life, hope and a reason for living~

  251.  #251Ingrid on April 6, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    Dear Shannon:

    Are you still married? I hear you how hurt you must have been when you discovered your h was checking out an escort service. Horrible! How long have you been married? How old are your children? This must have been so hurtful and shocking for you. I understand. I have been through it too.

    I’d like to hear how you handled this when you found out. How and what you said to him. What did you do? Write back if you want. Would love to hear your feelings.

  252.  #252Tina on April 7, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Ingrid, It would seem obvious to me that your husband did not love you AT ALL! while he was cheating on you, I doubt that he does. I feel like banging my head against the wall, I dont know how to translate this to a feeling message. You are willing to contine the Big Lie that he is going through a mid life crisis rather than face the possibility that he does not love you. Did that sound harsh, I dont mean to sound harsh, I just like banging my head against the wall right now.

  253.  #253Tina on April 7, 2010 at 12:16 am

    I am feeling opinionated now, i’m not sure if thats a feeling though. You basically gave your husband “one free pass to fck a stripper” ok.

  254.  #254dawn on April 7, 2010 at 3:24 am

    Ingrid, watch the movie “Frida ” it will give you an insight and the support you are seeking. Its a true story that completly turned me around.

  255.  #255dawn on April 7, 2010 at 4:21 am

    Hi there girls, I feel confused ,triggered and protective. It feels really bad to read these posts. It doesnt serve anyone to cast blame. This forum is for healing . We are here to support each other. We are in effect on Roris dime. I am feeling resentful that most of what i read refers to God or Christian Carter. I am here at this moment because I want to learn more about Roris tools. I feel really angry when it comes to self promotion on this site too. I dont read the bible and i get the carter newsletters …….. at the very least practice what you preach ! Daria has always told the Rori way. I feel very safe and confident with her knowledge. I feel very annoyed and a little sad at the lack of respect .

  256.  #256Soignée on April 7, 2010 at 7:03 am

    Dear Dawn,

    I do not see anything wrong about the information by other authors, like Carter. Rori herself gives us a lot of different authors to know. Why not?
    In my opinion, it can be some intresting thought in some of the informaion.

    Certainly,we are here for learning Rori’s tools. But Rori introduces us different authors.
    why not?

  257.  #257dawn on April 7, 2010 at 7:29 am

    Soignee, I feel confusion . I am not at all against any other authors, no thats not it. I guess its maybe the vibe I get from some of the posts. I dont feel they are responding authentically . I guess i just feel sad for them. I feel ripped off because they arent communicating from the heart. Ifeel frusterated . Id actually like to hear how they are feeling as opposed to what they think I may want to hear .

  258.  #258sia on April 7, 2010 at 9:08 am


    you were saying people here are cruel..
    What if everyone agreed, yes she is a slut? Would you feel more understood?

    Should people pretend they agree with the ‘slut’ word? If they pretended, the advice wouldn’t have been honest.. It is necessary to make things ‘about you’ first, to establish a warm connection.

    Nobody likes to be told they are wrong, as Rori says, and if you say I was raised up to know good from bad, God is on my side – you might as well be saying: I am better than you, who have different opinion.

    Imagine somebody gave you their opinion, in opinion non feeling words: your husband is a slut. He broke his word to God – the girl did not! – he is a whore! He is a cheap human being!

    Right now you want to stay with your husband and you would not feel good hearing this, would you? And your ears would stay closed to advice coming from this ‘judging source’.

    So this is what we do on this blog, trying to stay away from saying opinions, but still listening to everybody and say how we feel instead of ‘he is a man-whore.’

    When we don’t say these things even to people who might have the same opinion, gradually our brains stop forming these strong black/white images, and we become truly ‘non-judging people, who have warmer and better relations with other..

    I am still learning but this is working! Please try saying I feel good with this – instead this is good, because God says it is good. Other people tend to have just as strong opinions on the opposite side – and they may have their own gods to support them – and this ends in righteous religious wars. So say I don’t feel good hearing this – instead of saying- you are cruel.

    all the best to you, I feel sad that you feel misunderstood, I hope this will improve..

  259.  #259Ingrid on April 7, 2010 at 10:01 am

    OK. Hear you, and everyone.

    I just wonder though, how would you ALL feel if you were married for over 20 years and had your beloved hubby cheating on YOU with a stripper? Can you put yourself in my place? Maybe you are not married for 20 years like I am, not married at all, (which BTW involves commitment) so you cannot even relate. That’s OK. There sure is a differing of thought here. I appreciate everyone’s views.

  260.  #260Ingrid on April 7, 2010 at 10:05 am

    Dear Tina:

    I felt a little weird when I read your post saying you believe my husband doesn’t love me. I know this is not true, so I didn’t feel too much except to feel you do not know what you’re talking about. Are you married Tina? Do you have children ? I did not feel anything when I read your post. I just read it. Then I thought, not felt. Thank you though for writing it.

    I am anxious to hear from you if you are married and have children, and for how long? Also I feel curious how old you are?

  261.  #261heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 10:15 am

    I feel PISSED OFF at this whole discussion about names – that here Ingrid came on expressing her PAIN and then the discussion started – like, right away – totally side-stepping the issue.

    People express their pain in different ways. When I read Ingrid’s very first post that’s what I felt – PAIN.

    I don’t give a fuck how people express it. Plenty of sirens here express their pain in aggressive ways. I don’t mind. That’s how pain is – rude, messy, ungracious, knife-like.

    I feel furious.

    It feels like bullying to me – I’m not saying that’s what it is – but that’s how it feels to me.

    Just because Ingrid doesn’t use the same language as some of us who have been here for a while doesn’t mean I can’t hear the pain.

    If a new siren has to only speak in a certain way then it feels like a version of political correctness gone crazy.

    If the discussion had started later I wouldn’t feel so angry. I feel mad that sirens can demean men as ‘frogs’ but not hear a woman’s screaming pain in the word ‘slut’.

  262.  #262heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 10:17 am

    I admire how Ingrid is staying with us and feeling more feminine. I feel supportive.

  263.  #263heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 10:19 am

    I love all the raunchy rude sirens too. I feel restless and frustrated when there are ‘sides’.

    I mean, can’t we all just have a damn good swear together?? That would feel good. We might even end up having a laugh. A lot of tension released 🙂

  264.  #264dorothea on April 7, 2010 at 10:33 am

    I’m not sure being married or having children has anything to do with the quality of your romantic connection to your husband, Pretty Miss Ingrid.


    What’s important here are your feelings. Your softness. Your boundaries. Your anger. Your love for yourself. Your boundaries. Having children or a long term marriage in the picture does not and should not change your reaction to him romantically. It does not change your boundaries. What matters is how he is treating you. How he is making you feel.

    Rori’s tools make it easier to receive the treatment you want from a man. To “Have The Relationship You Want”. And in the meantime of practicing the tools, you will almost inadvertently establish a foundation for yourself that will allow you to be OK no matter what happens with one particular man. Even IF he is your husband of a bazillion years.

    Or you can look at it the other way around…Rori’s tools make it possible for you to establish a foundation for yourself that will allow you to be OK no matter what happens with one particular man. And in the meantime of practicing the tools, it will become inadvertently easier to receive the treatment you want from a man.

    Ingrid, hugs to you. We’re gonna get through this. Everything is going to be OK.

  265.  #265dawn on April 7, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Thats the chance you take when you answer aggessively. You learn after a time or two it isnt received well. No one should ever be called a slut or a frog. I feel shocked and embarrassed .This has gone to a whole new low. I feel Ingrids pain just like everyone elses. She was , I believe requested by Rori to speak in feeling messages when posting. I missed the frog comment though. Wow. im really feeling confused now because if someone is in pain it gives them licence to be judgemental ? everyone on here is in pain at one time or another.

  266.  #266Ingrid on April 7, 2010 at 10:39 am

    Dear Heartbeat:

    Thank you for your gracious-ness and for your sensitivity and understanding. I really appreciate it. (hugs)

  267.  #267Goodheart on April 7, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Amen, Heartbeat. Amen.

  268.  #268heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 10:50 am

    Dawn – HEAR the pain first, FEEL the feelings – then the ‘language’ usually takes care of itself. xx

  269.  #269Ingrid on April 7, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Thank you too again Dorthea for your post above. Tried to copy and paste but with my new laptop cannot seem to figure it out. GASP. Thank you for your wise and kind words. I really appreciate it so much!!!

    Thank you for reminding me of my feelings, etc. in all that is and has gone on with my hubby of 22 years. But I must say I disagree with a little of what you said. I feel life sometimes is not “just about us and our feelings”, it is sometimes about commitment, especially in marriage. Even when it feels “icky”, as Rori would say. I feel it is important to consider those little ones too, such as our kids in the whole scenario and do what is best for them too. This may involve sacrifice of ourselves at times for the good of the family. This is how I feel. I feel I want to keep my marriage and family together for the good of the family, for my kids and for the next generation. I do not want my precious boys to come from a divorced home. I feel this would affect them for life, and on down to their future families as well. Giving up when things did not feel good for a time. I feel right about perseverence, but need help with the hurt of it all. Plus, my husband has admitted how he has failed me and wants to make a new start. I am happy about this, and trying to get the trust back, little by little of course and re-capture my self-esteem back too. It is hard when you have been betrayed, but your mate who promised to always be faithful. I really feel for Elin Woods, for Sandra Bullock and/or for any of you who have been betrayed by your spouse. It’s not fun. It’s the pitts. I just want to become a better woman through it, live through it #1, become stronger #2, and perhaps help another, #3, giving them hope and strength. My hubby, says he loves me and wants a new start, that he made a mistake. I hope he holds to this and that I don’t find out more betrayals. God I hope not. But I’ll survive anyway no matter. I want to be stronger, and learn Rori’s tools.

    Thank you all and God Bless You~


  270.  #270dawn on April 7, 2010 at 11:04 am

    I was feeling frisky and sarcastic . I get it. Im feeling bad for Ingrid and hope she gets it too.

  271.  #271Soignée on April 7, 2010 at 11:10 am

    As my ex man was not sure what to do as his ex woman came back with the child (Attention!!! They broke up BEFORE we met, and we lived together for months, every day together, he brought me to work, he picked me up and we stayed together, months, long months… together). As this woman came back and put the child in front of him and he was not sure what to do, ME, I left, I had to leave.

    I called this woman the slut,the whoe, the most terrible woman on the earth, I hated her, I hated that she manipulated with the child. That she wanted to take my love away, my happiness.
    I broke down every time I stayed alone, I was ok only when with people. As soon as I stayed alone, i felt the most terrible pain I could imagine. It was a horror, a nightmare pain. I could not imagine that I could suffer like a dog. When I was with people, I had to re-act, but alone I cried, cried, I remember this grief and it was the death for me inside.

    I was dead inside for so many months before I healed.

    But I have not lived with him for 20 years. And Ingrid did live with her man for 20 years, and she has children. So I can imagine how big her pain is!!!

    As I broke this relationship with the man, I told my story on a site and there were 2 girls I will always remember them, who helped me with their advice. It softened my pain, I printed the answers.
    These people I did not know personally were my friends at the hardest time in my love life, so I will thank them forever.

    Why to judge Ladies? Ingrid is in the middle of pain!!!

    Yes, when a man breaks with you, it is hard enough, you compare yourself with other women, you fell ugly. And in this case, the woman is a stripper, who earns money showing her beauty to men, it is worse. So you can feel uglier and that nobody needs you. That no man needs you. You feel more un-attractive.

    And you may need the help, advice, KINDNESS maybe more than at other periods.

    i so much appreciated the kindness of these wonderful women, I knew on the site, it was such a help for me.

    Why to be cruel? I was suffering like a dog and more pain I could not stand.

    I did not want to leave, I lost the faith in mankind(the right word? I mean I did not believe in people=).

    Yes, the grief of Ingrid or some other lady who suffers such an ugly break-up, is immeasurable.
    I passed through the horrible pain, so I can only imagine how is Ingrid.

    Maybe we can soften someone’s pain.

  272.  #272heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Soignee – that feels beautiful. I admire so much how you have come through this xx

  273.  #273dawn on April 7, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Soignee , so softly and eloquently expressed.

  274.  #274Turtle Girl on April 7, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Well now we are getting down to it. Getting down to the real and the raw. What this is all about-what everything this whole damn site and all our problems are about is fucking PAIN.

    Is one of us any more deserving of kindness or love because we call someone a name/label or don’t call someone a name label? No. But what happens I feel is that because we hurt, then we lash out. We want the pain to go away and the other person who is causing that pain is the slut/asshole/bastard, frog, crazy bitch, whatever. So we look around for someone to blame for all this god damn miserable, excruciating pain we are in. Then comes the anger-we are betrayed we are suffering.

    Most if not all of the women on this blog are been put through the wringer of pain by men. Lier’s, cheaters, betrayal, indifference, outright meanness, deception, even cruelty verbally and physically. It’s always pain, pain, pain. Men who do this to us may be in their own pain, or not. Hard to know. Selfish self centered behavior can cause so much pain for another, regardless.

    When we feel attacked by the person in pain it makes it hard to have much empathy for them.
    When the words are judgmental, that causes pain.
    When I am in pain, I feel the need to have loving emotional support from friends who won’t judge me for hurting. Self righteous religious people always trigger me. They act and speak as if they are better than me and that causes me pain. I feel judged. I feel less than. I feel hatred for the one judging me.
    I feel outrage.

    Everyone wants to feel vindicated and right for their position whatever it is. And that causes pain. There is no right or wrong, other than if it does not cause pain to another living person. This of course is not possible. We are all human and we are going to cause each other pain. This is on of the great truths of the Budda. Life is suffering.

    To not want to be called a slut or have any woman called a slut does not mean we think it is fine and dandy for a man to cheat. Oh no. I was married for ten years. We had children. My husband at the time cheated on me on numerous occasions. I have told this story on an older post. The pain he caused me was unbearable at the time. I lost control. I ripped out the phone right out of the wall. I took a knife to his paint job on his car. I wanted to die. The betrayal was something I thought I would never get past. And it scarred me. It, among many other situations and circumstances made me very angry and resentful at men and how much pain they can cause. I started drinking a lot. I became “slutty” and promiscuous, figured that I could act just like a man, just like him, turn off my emotions and be selfish and not give a shit about anyone or anything.

    Pain can do terrible things to your self esteem. Pain made me act like a crazy bitch. I went nuts.

    Soignee and Ingrid and many others on this blog know what pain can do to us as women. And it’s not pretty.
    But it is human. It is real. And we can recover from it. I personally never got over it. I learned to live with it, but I don’t think I ever healed from it. I tried to forgive him, and “take the moral high ground” and tell myself he was just soul sick and selfish. I tried praying for him, because he prolly was. But that did not lesson my pain. My pain was retched. My pain was fetal position, roll up on the floor, weeping until my eyes were swollen shut. My pain was screaming into the dark all alone ” why by god why how could he do this to me!? oh my god how can anyone be that selfish and brutal? how can I ever trust another man? This is an unspeakable, unbearable pain!” And yet, I bared it because it was bear it or kill myself. and I decided I was worth more than him. I wanted him to suffer like I did. I did not want to fucking forgive him. But I had to for me. I did not do it for him.

    It was one of the loneliest darkest places I have ever been. And as much as I wish is was not true, the worst kind of pain I have ever had has always been from a man. A sad fact. I have endured many heartaches in this life. But men have caused the worst of them. The only thing worse I can imagine is a child dying. I have heard that is the bottom line in the pain department, and i feel blessed to not have had to go through that.

    But pain? Yes, it is what is going on for all of us women.

  275.  #275heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Turtle Girl – wow that felt powerful! You expressed that in a way I recognise – I’ve been in that pain, drank myself stupid till it became bearable. My goodness, I’m lost for words now…. I feel very close to you at this moment xx

  276.  #276Turtle Girl on April 7, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    thanks heatbeat-

    it is very difficult for me to express my feelings other than anger. I am good at anger. but pain strips all that away. there is always pain under anger. as a child i was always made fun of by religious people and my dad for being “too sensitive”. always told i needed to “get some lizard scales” and quit being such a lover of the wounded birds…… the funny thing is, no mater how much they tried to change me, i still care for wounded birds. i always had hopes that i would find man who liked and appreciated this, but i always ended up with guys who make fun of me for being “overemotional” and I am frankly, getting really fucking sick of it. I feel like screaming at them for being “too fucking hard ass”. My daughter said to me the other day- “Mom, doesn’t anyone FEEL anymore?” Yeah, no shit, indeed. Nail on the head.

  277.  #277tinque on April 7, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    Yes Turtle Girl. Thank you for the beautiful honesty.

  278.  #278heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    Turtle Girl – I love that you care for wounded birds. I send an almighty cheer that your daughter said what she did. I love my sensitivity and I love yours too xx

  279.  #279dawn on April 7, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    Turtle girl, You are an inspiration ! Before I came to siren island I thought feelings were the things I said when i stubbed my toe ! Ha ! Ive been educated by some of the smartest , sweetest and caring sirens . I actually feel a debt of gratitude to all involved. I was pretty low and not entirely sure Id be here today if not for all this.

  280.  #280Ingrid on April 7, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Dear Turtle Girl:
    Thank you so much for sharing your heart. I am totally touched by it. AND, I can relate too, as my family has made fun of me too for being overly sensitive……I have stories to tell beyond belief too, of how I was made fun of as a child and as an adolescent, growing up being such a sensitive gal. It was so hard. Yet, now when all grown up, LOL being 50 now, I see they, my family, had their own issues too, which totally contributed to WHY they made fun of me, and said what they said, did what they did, THEY were only being human and living and passing on what they knew. I see my parents now in a new light, passing on what they knew, despite how I feel. They were only passing on what they knew to pass on. I realize this now, finally, being 50 yo. And if I can help another, I really want to. If I can help another gal see her man in a new light, this is what I desire more than anything. I now know love is waaay more than mere feeling, love is commitment as well, as is family. This makes me so happy to know this.

    God Bless~

  281.  #281heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    Dawn – funny you should say that, because I felt the same – feeling low and not sure I’d be here, but really glad I am now! My day feels richer for it xx

  282.  #282heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Oh I may have misunderstood Dawn – re-reading your comment… feels more like you were in a really tough place before you found siren island ever. Hugs to you xx

  283.  #283heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    I think I’m getting a bit senile. All part of getting older. I peed my pants on the other post xx

  284.  #284dawn on April 7, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Heartbeat, i feel glad about this everyday . I feel calmer now. Somehow as stubborn as i am I was able to make the shift. My sister mentioned she noticed a big change in me. That was the best thing id heard in 5 years. I came home and blubbered like a baby. I guess thats just what I needed to hear. many hugs

  285.  #285tinque on April 7, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Okay heartbeat. I have an image of you in my head now. senile, cones, peed pants….yikes, and don’t forget the furballs and milk stains. lol 🙂

  286.  #286Turtle Girl on April 7, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Thank you Dawn and Ingrid, Heartbeat and Tinque, thank you all for sharing.

    Ingrid-I agree with you on this-love is more than a feeling. If we all acted on however we felt at any given time it would be chaos. So-yes-love is a feeling-it is also a commitment. And lack of this -living in and believing the lie of a throw away society, makes that hard to do at times, makes it easy for some to just throw people away too.

  287.  #287heartbeat on April 7, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Tinque – it’s all a cunning disguise 🙂

    Off to bed now – sweet dreams xxxx

  288.  #288Tina on April 7, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    Ingrid, no I have not been married for 20 yrs. I”m 43 yrs.old. I guess I cant relate.

  289.  #289Ingrid on April 7, 2010 at 8:50 pm


    I’m glad you made it through with your ex boyfriend. That’s a good thing. None of us will die from being hurt. Hopefully it will make us stronger. One thing I have learned is not to depend too heavily on any other human being or put them on a pedestal, like I did my hubby. They will always disappoint us. We are all selfish and capable of hurting someone else. This sucks. I hate feeling hurt by men, especially from the one person who should be my rock in this life, (my husband). Live and learn. And become wiser, and not make the same mistakes again. I am learning this. No one can make us feel inferior unless we let them, Elenor Roosevelt~
    Thx everyone for your encouraging words~

  290.  #290Ingrid on April 7, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    Hi Turtle Girl:

    I agree with you. Our society seems to just throw away people like an old shoe. I hate the way men have affairs on their wives. I hate hearing about this in the media everywhere, like Tiger Woods and Jessie James. It makes me ill. How they can be so selfish!!!
    That’s what it is–selfishness. Feelings ebb and flow with the wind. There has to be something more to base our life on other than how we feel from one moment to the next. So….it felt very nice to read your post above Turtle Girl~

    Good Nite~

  291.  #291Alicia on April 7, 2010 at 9:46 pm

    Thanks Shannon –

    About the just a word thing. My friend sometimes would say.. I want to wear something hot tonight.. Let’s go find something slutty. lol.. It was like in good humour. Or she would say Heyyy Biatch.. we would just kind of laugh. Actually at fist I was like girl.. Oh uh uh.. I don’t like that! But she did it to everyone.. so it was just her things, I just rolled with it.. and would call her a hussy, but we laughed about it.

  292.  #292Alicia on April 7, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    What are these people doing to get help? Have they listened to the CD’s or DVD’s? Or are they just here to vent… I want to see some postive steps.. and hear about how things are turning around..

    You can’t treat people better then they deserve to be treated or they get all rejecting and freaked out.

    Interesting and that goes both ways.. Don’t over give to guy or he get all wierd.. Or be his door mat and the doormat is about you.. And next question why don’t you (in general) as the women feel like you deserve this and must stay? Becuase you can’t change him.. and can you do really think you deseve better or are you afraid to find out. If he rejected would the next guy? Do you deserve better? Or is the cage just a safe place..?? So you don’t have to face the reality and face yourself fears and all in the mirror? This I have pondered and asked myself..

  293.  #293Tina on April 7, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    I dont get how one woman’s pain is less valid than another womans pain and how that can be gadged and only significant if and only if she is married for 20 yrs or more? Ingrid? I mean as far as cheating goes. so what you had kids, so what if you didnt, so what? What does it matter Elin was not married that long, Sandra had no kids! I would still feel angry , rensentful and bitter, just out all bat crazy! I feel furious hehe, I feel so freakin angry, I feel intense 🙂 I’m not even the one being cheated on sheesh. I”m for world peace and non cheating husbands though. I feed stray dogs too 🙂

  294.  #294Alicia on April 7, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    *better then they “feel” they deserve to be treated.. (in a intimate relationship.. They have to first treat themselves good and feel worthy of it. Otherwise it back fires..) If you feel worthy of it.. Great that is clearly not an issue.

    But, to see people stay in victim mode. Is actually getting on my nerves. Do you feel like you deserve this? Are you doing anything to change yourself and what your belief system. Or do you just put up with the same shit crossing your fingers that he will change and realize you deserve to treated well. Lead by example. It’s starts with you…

    My anger is in 4th gear.. I need some feeling messages and that is not directed to anyone in paticular.. I feel angry, I feel explosive, I feel abandoned.. I feel rejected, I feel embarrased, I feel outraged, I feel controlled, I feel a deep breath, I feel forgiveness, I feel anger passing and now I feel content.

  295.  #295Alicia on April 7, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    Let me explain this – I’ll paint a picture..

    A women is in a abusive relationship, one day her husband strikes her across the face. She says… ”

    Wait, what just happened, I don’t deserve that.” I’m leaving..

    She leaves then she comes back..

    Her husband is nice and says nice things.. Then he strikes her across the face AGAIN…

    She says… “I can’t believe this happened again.” I must leave..

    She leaves and comes back.. ” He stikes her across the face again.” She starts to say. “Why does the keep happening, maybe I’m doing something to deserve this.”

    The next day she is in the house and he stikes her across the face yet again. “she says I must deserve it.”

    Then he gets mad and stikes her across the face over and over.. “she starts to tell herself, I must deserve this or he wouldn’t do this.” ”

    It becomes sick and changes her belief system and her brain chemisty to the point where she says… ” I must deserve this.. in order for me to be forgiven I must get hit.”

    This is a true example of how abuse works..

    This is why you have to leave and get help the first time.. Now some people aren’t being physically abused they are mentally kicked around.. and self esteem drug thru the dirt.. SAME THING!! GET HELP! START HELPING YOURSELF!!! GEEESH!! If I can you can…. All this memory lane living in the past is great if you are moving forward.. But, repeating the same scenerio how many times. Really answer please … how many times does it take? My goodness, reading these post sometimes makes me look at myself and say yes.. it takes awhile but, facing the music is not for the faint of heart! A pity party helps no one.. it gives them a pay off to stay put..

    If I trigger anger or anything… use it to help yourself. I’m angry to see so many hurting women.

  296.  #296dorothea on April 7, 2010 at 10:21 pm

    Yeah I really agree, we use the little details to set ourselves apart from other people who want to help us, have advice for us, or relate to us. We say, oh, you weren’t married for 20 years and you don’t have kids so why should I listen to you?

    I have miles and miles of sob stories none of you can materially relate to. Doesn’t mean that the results of these bad things I went through, particularly the FEELINGS that resulted, are something no one else can relate to. Pain is pain.

    Don’t alienate yourself or preserve your misery by finding excuses to keep others out at this time.

    You are here for a reason, and you keep coming back for a reason.

    Stop skipping rocks over the water when you in fact came to drink.

    The sirens are in the water splashing around, spotted you washed up on the shore – you, kept from shriveling up and dying of thirst in the barren sands only from your own personal, private flow of tears. God bless those tears for that. Now the sirens are cupping their hands full of water for you to safely drink from until you are strong and hydrated enough to come in to splash around, too. Because you inherently deserve to drink this water, and the sirens know this. Plus the sirens are feeling grumpy about having to deal with getting hit by the occasional stray rock….

  297.  #297softy on April 8, 2010 at 12:26 am


    a lovely song from my lovely friend when I was down

  298.  #298Soignée on April 8, 2010 at 2:31 am

    Dear Turtle Girl,

    thank you so much for your post. You expressed your feelings in a way which I could feel, thank you dear for it. The feelings are so similar to me, I wanted to cry. I would send you so much hugs!!!!! You are right, in my case, toot, the worst pain I had was from men I had in the past. I was a naive innocent girl and was not strong enough to handle some relationships, lies. You tell about your over-sensitive character, it is also for me. It is the same for me, I worked with a lot of people, with children with handicap, and I can feel, I am over-sensitive. So that’s why I can understand you. But if the men laugh at your feelings for wounded birds, you have to compassionate them for being without feelings.
    You are the person who can feel, you are more complete than them. maybe they are the burned-out trees inside, dead, dried people who wake up, do their things without feelings, primitive people, not being able to feel. I had the periods of my life when I got cynic, when I did not feel anything and in my case, I can say I felt dead. I did not feel pain, but compassion,love, and I did not feel the joy, the joy to live. I was like a dead creature. And you can feel. So in your case you can feel love.
    This ability to feel as pain and love, we can learn to use in our best way. So like Rori tells us, we have to learn not to glamorize the pain, we have to train ourselves to better feelings. Because the ability to love is a great thing because it makes us alive.
    I can not live well without feeling of love, the love not for men, but the love for life. I am alive when I can love people, animals, everything around. I am 33 years old, but so many people tell me I am much much younger, but I think it is because of my ability to wonder, to be a girl, I am not grown-up, really idealistic. I want to fall in love with the world around, that’s why I am sometimes really really down, because the world is not the fairy tale I look for. But I need some magic the same. Magic, what means to put love in people and the world. I do not want the world based only on interest. I want the human qualities: love, kindness, I am ready to spread them out in the world and I want to find them in the world. That’s why I get shocked when the people who are your closest friends, the deerest partners, when they cheat and take advantage of you.
    But as Rori tells us: No man can be the most important source of our happiness, we have to be our fountains of love, and he can only add the love we already have.

    So this it the issue: to learn how to love ourselves, and to fill us with the love, that we are complete. that we are plenty of love for ourselves. In this case, when we have this feeling of being complete, filled in with love for ourselves, we are not anymore dipendent on men or other sources.
    The most important tool, as for me.
    And dear Turtle Girl, you have so much love also for wounded bird, in some way you are this wounded bird, so please take care also of you!! You do not have to be acustomed to pain,. We have to train ourselves to happiness.I will ask Rori about some post about it.

  299.  #299tinque on April 8, 2010 at 7:44 am

    There are a couple of things that haven’t been addressed and it seems to me need to be considered.
    Statistically just as many women cheat as men or very close to it – 49% as opposed to 51%.
    Just as many men are being devastated in this way.

    Children – they know everything that is going on. It has been said here that staying together as a couple is best for the children.
    What I see is that if there are boy children, they are being shown that it’s okay to cheat on his woman and/or take advantage, mistreat her, for she will tolerate it and keep taking him back anyway.
    If there are girl children, they are being shown that’s it’s okay for a man to cheat on his woman and/or take advantage/mistreat her, for she will suffer in silence yet pretend all is well.
    Is this the kind of children we want to be raising?

  300.  #300dawn on April 8, 2010 at 8:08 am

    Hi Tinque, Very valid you brave goddess ! I do however feel a tinge of negativity for lack of a better word in your post. We are essentially all trying to do the right or best thing for our families. I faced this same agonising question some 20 yrs ago. Do I leave and take my children to live in poverty? Perhaps never to go to college? Do I take them from everything they love including thier father? Do I want a string of men floating in and out of their lives because im lonely ? Those were the questions I asked myself then. I stayed the 20yrs. There is no right or wrong . I didnt have this forum back then and I may have done things differently. I am feeling surprised by your lack of faith and the possibility of change or growth.

  301.  #301tinque on April 8, 2010 at 8:26 am

    I understand and appreciate your comment dawn.
    I desire only to present other things to be considered within what is a complex and difficult situation.
    There really is no right or wrong thing to do here.
    Each couple has to do what they feel is the best for their situation.
    People can most definitely change. Look at all the women here who have and rather quickly in many cases.
    It has been my experience that men take our lead in matters of the heart and its opening and blossoming. I’m not saying men are incapable without us, but we do seem to facilitate this for them.
    That said children will suffer damage however it plays out. It’s inevitable, but it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Children can also be remarkably resilient.
    It’s the nature/nurture thing here. For some the stress will create wonderful growth. For others not so much. There is no way to really know ahead of time.
    So again I say each couple must decide for themselves which road to travel.

  302.  #302Turtle Girl on April 8, 2010 at 8:41 am

    I totally understand what you are angry about. Sometimes it feels like we are all just stuck-in place or in reverse. I can only say that healing is not linear. It is not wake p one day and decide this or that will be different. While that can happen, it is usually a process, one step forward, two back, three forward, one sideways, etc.

    Some of the women here have had incredible horrific abuse, others not so much. Some may not ever be able to heal. Others are doing the best that they can. I get your angry it is frustration because you feel “why doesn’t she get this or that! Arghh!!! I hate seeing her in pain. Pity parties sometimes does keep us stuck. Same damn thing over and over.
    And yet, in twelve step programs there is a saying-“It take what it takes”. Maybe some of us need to “sit shiva” for a long time with something in order for it to gestate and move to a better place so we can heal. I love your anger. I love that you care.
    But realize we are all on the path doing the best we can day by day one day at a time. xxoo

  303.  #303Turtle Girl on April 8, 2010 at 8:46 am


    Yes you are right. I am a wounded bird. But even wounded birds still have their wings, and one day when the wounds heal up, they look up to the clear blue sky and they see the other wild geese flying high in the clean blue air, and the desire of their heart is to join them. And they have the courage and the freedom to spread their wings, finally after years of not using them and when the wind hits their feathers they fly, they are joyous. They are wild, they are free and they are full of love for the world and all the other birds next to them.
    Wounded birds do fly again. They fly again.

  304.  #304Rori Raye on April 8, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    Softy – thank you so much for this – and here’s the video – I just cried at the force of it – and the singing is amazing…Bless you…Stand Up! Love, Rori


  305.  #305Ingrid on April 8, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    Dear Softy:

    I loved the video too! Thank you thank you for sharing it!

    Question: Pertaining to the initial topic of this thread, I really need some help on restoring trust, and healing after my husbands affair. I am trying to trust he means what he says that “it’s over” but how can I be sure? I feel so icky right now, tears flowing with an awful feeling in the pit of my stomach again,,,,,,,like re-living old times. Today my h left to do a couple errands and was gone for 4 hours. He didn’t answer his phone, and I am feeling afraid, scared, sick, hurt, helpless, shaky, and crushed thinking and feeling, “what if he really ventured to “that place” again????? This feels like the roof is collapsing all around me. When he did finally call, he said he got tied up doing some business, but I still doubt, as he has lied to me so many times in the past 2 years. I am afraid. What do I say to him when he comes home?

  306.  #306dawn on April 8, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Ingrid, I wouldnt say a thing. If you feel good about staying then you will go with your heart and STOP thinking about it. Its our thoughts and overanalising actions and words that does NOT work. What does work is time and patience and ALOT of love from both sides. “Frida” actually has scenes where all this is played out . It was brilliant. Yes iwas married for 20 yrs, yes i was cheated on (she was 25) im 45.

  307.  #307Tina on April 8, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    Ingrid, you say too him, I feel afraid, scared, sick, hurt, helpless, shaky, and crushed ! about what? I guess it’s not about what, it’s about how you feel. Can you live like this for the rest of your life? Can you live with the thoughts and feelings of every time he is late (4 hours) he is seeing her again? His life should be an open book to you right now, especially after his 2 year affair!

  308.  #308Ingrid on April 8, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    Thank you Dawn and Tina!

    No, I don’t want to feel afraid, scared, helpless, shakey, every time he is gone for 4 hours. No, I do not want this to occupy my thoughts and become crushed over and over. I want to remain with him. BUT, not if this happens repeatedly. This was the first time I felt this way now in the past month. Today he just “disappears” after saying he was going to the drugstore. This felt simply NOT OK with me. But I cannot keep my husband on a leash, nor do I want to. LOL
    What really set me off in despair was my teen son saying to me, “mom, dad probably went to the strip club today”……….

    He’ll be home in 2 hours so I have time to figure out the right and dignified way to handle this. It feels pretty yuccy. Believe me Tina, if I have evidence of one more incident or contact with said “woman”, I will not live this way ANY MORE !!!!!! I am trying to trust, be confident, etc., guess I’m wayyy overly sensitive now because of everything lately.

  309.  #309dawn on April 8, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    Ingrid , Thats why its so important to keep busy and get your own life. Go out with friends, take a class etc…. I dont know . After 2yrs of his bad behaviour should you really be waiting for him? How does it make you feel ?

  310.  #310softy on April 8, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Thanks Ingrid, lots of love and many hugs!

    I want to thank to my friend and Rori.
    You entered, bringing light and life to me.
    At the end of the tunnel,
    you’ll be my guiding light,
    You’ll lead me to heaven,
    away from the night
    I have to thank you for the light.

    love you Rori , love you M

  311.  #311Tina on April 8, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    Ingrid, the right and dignified is not the way to go here, finding your feelings feels messy. Are you familiar with “your soup” of feelings?

  312.  #312Tina on April 8, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    Ingrid, learning to trust is about learning to trust yourself and your FEELINGS. I learned compassion for myself first and formost BEFORE I could learn to love myself and trust my feelings.

  313.  #313Ingrid on April 8, 2010 at 9:41 pm


    No. What is “the soup of feelings”? I presume it’s the conglomeration of numerous different feelings all mushed together. But of course.

    I feel “the soup” tonight. LOL. Mustering up of iccy-ness like for the past 2 years. YCCH! Just like I said above. I know this is how I feel. Because I feel the array of them in my gut. I want them to go away. I do not like feeling them. It makes me feel and BE weak, helpless, desperate, pitiful, soooo insecure. I hate this about myself, how insecure I can be at times. I know here we learn to feel our feelings. I am slowly learning it’s OK to feel them, but then considering all the talk about relationships, it seems the consensus is men like when we are strong, and confident. How can I be this when I feel this way? It’s impossible, at least right now. I’m so tired, I think I should just drop it with my husband and go to sleep. Thank you for responding~~~~ (hugs 2 u~

    It’s great Tina, you have learned compassion for YOU, first and foremost. I need to learn this. I give everything I have away to everyone else, always have, then have nothing left for ME. I was raised this way, to give, give, give. To think of yourself last.

  314.  #314Tina on April 8, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    Ingrid this is part of another tool but this is pretty much what your soup looks and feels like. You can use your breathe to visual going down in to your ‘ice soup” and finding a feeling any feeling really pick on that is easy for you.

    3. Drop into the Soup.

    Just imagine in your mind that this anxiety and
    tension is somewhere up around your throat and in
    your head up high in your body. And imagine
    dropping all of your awareness, and sensations,
    and this anxious feeling down into your body as
    low as you can go down into your pelvis, down into
    your vagina, down into your lowest “chakra.”

    4. Turn your attention to what you’re feeling
    in this lowest part of your body.

    It might seem like a mish-mash, or you might
    even feel numb or blank, but see if you can
    identify one of the feelings in the Soup — like
    anger, or grief. Something really powerful.

  315.  #315Tina on April 8, 2010 at 10:23 pm

    I use this to find my anger 🙂 works great , I find my anger then bring it up and out of my mouth using my breath like a like a silent scream 🙂 releasing it out the window , I close my eyes so I can get into my body and feel down into my pelvis. This tool is called the “vampire scream” if you want I can post it here.

  316.  #316Tina on April 8, 2010 at 10:33 pm

    If you’re feeling anxious, or tense, or angry
    or frustrated, or disturbed in any way, try these

    1. Notice that what you’re feeling is anxiety.

    This could feel like jumpiness, tension in your
    body, nervousness, fear of something, worry, a
    sense of unease.

    2. Know that this feeling — this tension, this
    anxiety is like the “lid” on your emotional
    “Soup.” The Soup of your emotions.

    And this lid is getting shaky. It’s starting to
    rattle. The steam is coming out. The gremlins and
    awful feelings are starting to rise to the surface
    and that is terrifying. More terrifying than the
    emotions that are trying to come to the surface!

    3. Drop into the Soup
    Just imagine in your mind that this anxiety and
    tension is somewhere up around your throat and in
    your head up high in your body. And imagine
    dropping all of your awareness, and sensations,
    and this anxious feeling down into your body as
    low as you can go down into your pelvis, down into
    your vagina, down into your lowest “chakra.”

    4. Turn your attention to what you’re feeling
    in this lowest part of your body.

    It might seem like a mish-mash, or you might
    even feel numb or blank, but see if you can
    identify one of the feelings in the Soup — like
    anger, or grief. Something really powerful.

    Let’s say you’ve identified that you feel
    anger. Now…

    5. Really tune into this feeling — this anger.

    Imagine what it is you like to do with that
    feeling. Do you want to hit something or someone?
    Do you want to hurt something or someone? Is it
    your situation you’re angry with? Is it a person?

    Is it your man?

    It doesn’t matter. This tool is all about a
    “scream,” so let’s go for that.

    6. Let’s get ready to scream.

    First let’s prepare. Imagine what it would feel
    like to let go of a scream that would be huge
    enough to knock down the whole world.

    Notice what your hands are doing. Are they
    preparing to move?

    Imagine what that might feel like coming out of
    your body. Imagine it coming from the deepest part
    of you and just overtaking your body and coming
    out of your body with so much force that everyone
    on the planet would hear it and know exactly how
    you feel.

    7. Now let’s scream — do it this way
    We’re not going to make a loud sound. We’re not
    going to actually scream. We’re going to do what I
    call the “Vampire Scream.”

    > Open your mouth. Drop your jaw all the way down
    to hold your mouth open as you far as you can.

    > Now imagine a sound and a feeling and a force
    is crawling up and coming up from the very lowest
    part of your pelvis.

    > Now start breathing OUT.

    > Put your arms out in front of you and let them
    do whatever they want to do.

    > Say — “Ahhh……”

    > Let that “Ahhhh…” out as you exhale and allow
    it to come from deeper and deeper inside yourself
    as you run out of air.

    > Let your hands and fingers move in the air in
    front of you.

    > Use every last ounce of breath and energy
    And when you’re done, when you’ve squeezed out
    every last bit of the”Ahhhh…” then just relax.
    Let your arms come down when they are ready.

    Feel free to try this a few times in a row.

    What we’ve done here is slid right past your
    anxiety and into all the terrifying feelings that
    you’re used to feeling afraid to feel.

    And now that you’ve felt them, you don’t have
    to be afraid of them anymore!

    Once you’ve touched the Soup — especially a
    feeling in there that you don’t like — you’re
    more able to touch all your OTHER feelings.

    Once you’ve touched your rage, it’s much easier
    to touch your bliss.

  317.  #317Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 8:01 am

    WOW Tina: Thank you so much! What an excellent tool. Is from one of Rori’s tapes? It’s marvelous.
    The main feeling I was feeling last night was anxiety. Yes, like the lid on the soup pot was rattling…..something wanted to seep out, but I wasn’t sure what exactly. In any event, I felt anxious. Maybe fear of “more of the same” overtook me. OK had a talk with hubby about it, and what he said floored me, but made sense….

    He said “Why don’t you go find a job, then you won’t be so worried about everything and over-reacting; and “we just made love before I left, so why would I even want to go back to that “place”? He is right!!!! If I had some semblance of a life, I would not even have gotten so insecure about it!!!! Damn it!

    I admit I felt somewhat like an idiot. I should have been confident enough to not even think about it. I should have walked down to my nail shop when he was gone for 4 hours and had a nice mani-pedi. Thought about it…..lol but stayed home sulking instead. Nasty.

    Thank you again Tina for helping me “get in touch with my feelings” This is all so new to me, but I crave the learning.

  318.  #318Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 8:03 am

    BTW Tina, am re-reading your marvelous post again and again. Cannot figure out how to copy and paste it elsewhere….this stupid laptop and mouse! HAHA

  319.  #319Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 9:53 am

    Just had a huge fight about all that happened yesterday. Hubby called me a BITCH, heart broken. I guess he feels this away about me. I got angry, threw something of his in the street, he sped off.

    Friends. I cannot carry on in this manner. Just the fact he acted this way shows me he must be guilty of further adultery. Dunno for sure. I instigated the argument.

    I feel now, so angry, like I hate him. Help me

  320.  #320dawn on April 9, 2010 at 10:02 am

    Ingrid, Ifeel rather frustrated. What exactly arent you understanding? What are you feeling ?

  321.  #321Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 10:08 am

    Dawn: thank you first of all. I guess I am not understanding here any of the dynamics. Help me pleassssee.

    Now, to know what to do with it? This is what I feel now anyways. I feel he feels beholden to me cuz of our kids and our family, only. WHy, would any man call his love, a “bitch”? Tell me Dawn or anyone, would a man who adores you call us this? I am sooo hurt over it. He called me this again and again throughout our separation, he even wrote it in our driveway once in big huge pink chalk. HOW could a man, any man, even say/.do this?

    Today, I am on the verge of throwing him out again, yet then I’d be back to square one, where I;’ve been now for 2 years friends. I am despaired just now as to know what to do.

    Thank you for all advice.

  322.  #322Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 10:11 am

    I am not a bitch. I am a loving woman who wants a faithful and dependable husband. I cannot even fathom anyone who calls me this. it is the most hurtful thing ever. I am just the opposite. I kn ow many of you do not know me, that is OK, and perhaps this is what my h uses to hurt me. I don’t know his real feelings. Anyhow, today I am dissolusiioned and feeling hopeless ((again)) and afraid.

    Do not know how to respond to h when he returns.

    BTW, we only have one car now which is the pitts. He uses this against me in taking off……

  323.  #323Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 10:14 am

    I am not a bitch. I am a loving woman who wants a faithful and dependable husband. I cannot even fathom anyone who calls me this. it is the most hurtful thing ever. I am just the opposite. I kn ow many of you do not know me, that is OK, and perhaps this is what my h uses to hurt me. I don’t know his real feelings. Anyhow, today I am dissolusiioned and feeling hopeless ((again)) and afraid. And mad that he calls me this, again. it makes me not even want to engage in a realationship with him any longer…..It makes me hate him. it makes me feel horrible.

    Do not know how to respond to h when he returns.

    BTW, we only have one car now which is the pitts. He uses this against me in taking off……like he did just now. He called me a “bitch” as he sped off. Friends, please help.

  324.  #324dawn on April 9, 2010 at 10:27 am

    Ingrid, If you could just try to take the focus off of him and feel your anger and pain instead of acting out . Your reaction to him is based on fear and anger. Deal with your feelings. I feel so bad for you but you best get yourself out of victim mode. I feel the very best of advice has been given to you by all here . I feel you drowning and have sent serveral lines and it really feels bad to be ignored. In fact the response Rori gave you was the longest id ever seen. HEAL THYSELF ! Ifeel so angry . I feel angry that someone elses neediness triggers me. I feel angry im not being heard. I feel powerless in my anger . Get it ?

  325.  #325dawn on April 9, 2010 at 10:38 am

    Ingrid, stop thinking and start feeling. If you look at your posts you are telling what you think. We want to know how you feel. Start by using feeling messages. They connect your heart and mind. You can feel message to us all day we love it ! Its your thoughts that are messing you up. Take your head out of it. I feel loving. I feel bad when you call me a bitch . I feel hurt you sped off.

  326.  #326Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 10:39 am

    Thank you Dawn, but what do I do????? This is the question.
    I am soooo hurt over my h’s recent behavior, and what else is new really?

    However I ask you today, how do respond to it? What do I do? I am just soooo forelorn.

  327.  #327dawn on April 9, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Ingrid, Problems cannot be solved by thinking within the framework in which they were created. You have to find the power in yourself. Its there you just forgot you had it. When someone shows you who they are believe them . If I were you this very minute I would call a cab. I would go and find something to do that feels good to me. Dont hand over your power on a silver platter. I feel hes lucky to still have a home to speed away from.

  328.  #328Simply Shannon on April 9, 2010 at 11:12 am

    Ingrid: I would NOT chase after him. Go do something fun. Take your mind off of him, off of this mess. When he comes to you to talk, you can say:

    I feel furious. I do not want to be called a bitch. I am a loving woman who wants a faithful and dependable husband. When I couldn’t reach you yesterday, I felt scared and untrusting. I don’t want to wonder where you are and worry what you’re doing. I don’t know how to do this. What do you think?

    Then let him talk. There’s no more blaming here. This is about YOU figuring out what you want. It’s not based on anyone else, not your hubby, not your kids, not your family or friends, this is about what YOU want. Listen to him. Don’t interrupt. Take a breath and see how you feel. Does what he says feel good or bad? And then tell him what you’re feeling.

    In other words, if he comes back and says “you are a bitch”, you say “ouch. That feels bad. I feel furious. I don’t want to hear this anymore.” Then get up and walk out. Don’t let him egg you on. Just stop talking to him. Go do something else.

    Have you tried circular dating (maybe not actual dates) but just flirting with men in the grocery story or wherever. This is just to remember that you are a hot, desirable, confident momma.

  329.  #329dawn on April 9, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Simply shannon, I told her to call a cab to go do something . Not so she could chase him.

  330.  #330Simply Shannon on April 9, 2010 at 11:47 am

    I feel amused and confused Dawn. 🙂 I knew what you meant with your cab comment. I wasn’t referring to that. I was agreeing with you. Just meaning I wouldn’t chase him down (call him, pursue him, go after him in any way.)

    I’m sensing you’re feeling stressed out and/or angry today. Is that accurate?

  331.  #331dawn on April 9, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Simply Shannon, I feel anxious for some reason. You are a perceptive goddess. I guess it shows in my posts.

  332.  #332Lori on April 9, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Name calling is a dealbreaker and a strict boundary for me, Ingrid. I feel like you haven’t decided what your boundaries are and what you will and wll not tolerate when it comes o him or any man. I feel like this is the first step.

    I’m not married, of course, just circular dating, but I have been told I was acting like a bitch on a date once (when I wasn’t at all acting like a bitch but my date was drunk and belligerent) and got up and walked out and called a cab and left him sitting there. I refused to go out with him after that and told him that being called a bitch made me feel bad and I was not interested in any man who would intentionally make me feel bad.

    My advice is decide what you really want for yourself and what you will and will not accept as treatment and then as Shannon said, get up and walk out if he crosses a boundary.

  333.  #333dawn on April 9, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    Lori, you are so right. Maybe thats a good starting point. Ingrid will find that useful. I felt very overwhelmed at all the advice and kind words here at first too. Im proud of you and all your goddessness.

  334.  #334Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    Hi all:

    Dear Dawn: I want you to know that I do and have heard YOU, and appreciate all you have ever offered to me. So much! Thank you, I hear you, you ALL!!!!! You are so helpful to me. You MUST know this! If you were all my friends in “real life”, LOL, you probably would have called me that cab–HA 2 years ago, when my husband of 20 years emotionally if not physically “left me” for some stripper gal. OUCH.

    You all must think I am the weakest goddess/siren ever~ OUCH. Believe it or not, I used to be an ultra Goddess/siren, and in my profession (law) used to have/know several men who proposed to me too! GASP. Then my h came along and WOW what a change! He was the complete opposite of all the men previously in my life who were successful, arrogant, yes…….he was creative……this lured me in. He is a writer….a real artist…….blah blah. makes no difference WHAT a man does, if he treats you poorly.

    In any event, yes, ladies I told him my feelings. He listened, and we made up. Still…..my hurt lingers. I want to get rid of it. It is soooo hard being married for over 20 years. Lots of shit comes up at times…..lots. It’s not all roses like my mom and dad, married over 60 years now, bless their hearts, and hubby’s folks, married nearly 50 now.

    I am getting more in touch with my feelings and realize now I never knew how to before. I stuffed them, and the result? anxiety galore.

    All I can say now is I am so thankful for each one of you. I hope to meet you all soon at one of Rori’s workshops. Then we can all go out for a drink~ YAY~


  335.  #335Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    When we were separated, I tried Circular Dating, went actually on a couple dating sites, but then felt so guilty knowing I was not divorced yet. I just couldn’t do it. Didn’t feel honest about it. I met a really nice guy on one “Christian site” who turned out to be faking his pics, being a Nigerian who turned out asking for money. What a joke. Anyway, we did turn out to be friends, he sent me his actual picture and he was a 21 yo Nigerian who “needed money”. The website said to be careful as they do this. What a fiasco. I am fun to CD as I get along better with guys than gals in my real life. I am very athetic, and have many of “our” friends, with whom I like the husband more than the wife. This feels weird as I would not do anything to break a marriage up. Ever. But my closest friends are couples we knew, especially the man part of the couple. LOL. Guess I still need to remain open, as you never quite know what will transpire. I am debating to go to the Opera alone, one of my all time favorite things.

  336.  #336dawn on April 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Ingrid, There is no such thing as a weak goddess ! I feel sooooo happy that it all worked out. Yay for Ingrid !

  337.  #337Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    You see, I haven’t had a life apart from my husband in sooooo long. He’s always been not only my lover, my husband and father of my kids, but my best friend as well. We did everything together. This was/is so hard. When we were separated, there I was, without my best friend too, and alone. I guess now I must re-think. It’s OK to do stuff alone.

    I actually enjoyed one recent evening out with my two handsome and gorgeous and sweet teen sons going out to dinner and to a movie recently. It felt so nice to not be out with a man too, (husband) who oagled every woman who passed that was attractive and be oagled too, either him or me. Just to BE. It was heaven. I felt so calm then. I felt so less anxious. Thank you for listening everyone and letting me just express. I want to listen to all of you too.

  338.  #338Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    aWWWW Dawn….how sweet you are….thank you so much for writing! You;re awesome!

  339.  #339dawn on April 9, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Ingrid, The best part of CD is that there are no expectations. It is simply a meeting of two people sharing an experience. When there are no expectations( love, marriage) there is no pressure. You did mention a teenage son. Maybe he would be open to escort you to the opera !

  340.  #340Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    Dear Lori:

    Thank you for your wonderful words and insight!

    It’s a whole different ball game when you are married with a family I think. You can’t just walk out saying “forget you”…….You have so much more to consider.

    It;s that much more difficult really Lori.

    I did not/do not like being called a bitch by my h, but the truth is, maybe I am at times. GASP. Unheard of, sweet gentle me? Ingrid? the beautiful diva goddess? OUCH! I sure don’t want to be, or be called this, when I have done my best to be such a perfect wife, perfect mom and perfect homemaker and cook, etc. This hurts. My dad and mom would be FLOORED if they had any clue that my husband called me this. They would pay for my CAB and way out! LOL. They would not think of ever calling each other such words, and quite frankly I do not either. I am a Christian woman and would never call my husband such names or the equivilent. This is why I am soooo hurt when he calls me this.

    Just soooo hurt. The last time I kicked him out, he wrote BITCH on our driveway with huge letters and pink chalk, and our 16 yo son saw the whole thing. He has since apologized but this will always be a scar. One reason we are in counseling. I want to get rid of such scars. They are hurting me, in the long run. I want to be free of them and forgive, but it is so hard to do. I want to forget all the hurt, but it is so hard to do. If my parents knew the half of it, they would die. They are almost 90 years old today.

    Thx Goddesses for listening to me rant and rave. I need to. I have been in such a bad place for 2 years and am coming thru to the other side slowly but surely. I am feeling the soup of my feelings, thanks to Tina. (Tina…hugs). I am learning. I want to buy a Budda necklace.

  341.  #341Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    YES, my one son did escort me to one fabulous Opera recently and we had the best evening ever.! Thank you for reminding of this! how my grown, (almost grown sons) can enjoy similar things. It was a wonderful mom/son bonding night. We saw the wonderful Opera Don Carlo.

    Thank you for asking~

    I am thinking here…is it wrong to just get out for my own self and “circular date” so to speak? I am married and committed, but still, I never know what may be happening with my hubby?
    Not that I would EVER do anything with another man, but just explore my options…..LOL What does anyone think or say?
    I feel I have given myself away to hubby, who has in turn taken advantage of my love. I don’t anything can be wrong with “dating myself” and going to the Opera, or going to concerts alone, or doing what I like, do you? I am finally learning to get myself back. I’m the classic example of a woman who has lost herself completely in a man.

    Today we made love again and my hubby transcends me to another place. I tell you all, marriage does NOT make your sex life any less, if not more……..this has never ever been an issue for us. EVER. I still am so in love with my hubby even after 22 years. GASP I am such a sap~

  342.  #342dawn on April 9, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    Ingrid, You can do what ever you want. Do what feels good to you. You did mention that you are a lawyer. Maybe there is something you can do with that. Whatever makes you happy and fullfilled . It doesnt matter what anyone else thinks. Its how you feel.

  343.  #343Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Thank you Dawn so much. You are a God-send to me.

    Thanks again so much for your advice. Do YOu have any of Rori’s materials? If so, which ones? and what have you learned from them? Can you share?

    Thanks so much.

    I am starving to learn more, as you can see. I have been such an over-functioning person, I forgot how not to be, yet I want to learn.

  344.  #344Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    Rori: How to be as Goddess, and have a manly career? Please explain.

  345.  #345Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Rori: Is it even possible for a woman to have a “manly career”: and still be a feminine Godesss?woman? What do you think? Please write about this Rori.

  346.  #346Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Whoops. double duty here. Sorry.

    I’d love to hear from all you wonderful women who have high profile careers. How do you manage it? What are your thoughts? How do you manage your families? Your kids? Your marriage? Your sex life? Your hubbies?

  347.  #347Ingrid on April 9, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    I had a manly high profile career for decades,then I slowly came to hate and despise it. And I had to take Valium just to get thru the day. I finally learned this was although a good career, one in which I had to change because I hated it, and it was too stressful. Then I was a model/make-up artist, and in the beauty business for about 10 years then. One which was superficial as all get out, and only made me more insecure about my hubby. Then, I chose to stay home, give it all up and raise my kids, full-time. going to all their school functions, field trips, etc. which I loved!!!! Then my h had an affair and my world fell apart.

    So…..I am left now to pick up the pieces and figure out what to do next……..Thx for help. NO my past careers are over, and not something I want to do anymore. I want to do something to help others. Lord willing. I want to do something that makes a difference. Will let you all know when and what comes up. Thank you all for thinking of me, praying for me too, as I will pray for you too. Just ask me, and I will put YOU in my prayer journal.\

  348.  #348Apple Jacks on April 9, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    Hello everyone,

    I have posted only a couple times before under a different name. I won’t say which one though, hehe. I wanted to say that as a woman who has found herself in the most difficult situations (falling in love with a married man, contemplated stripping and escorting for money because my family and I have been in such dire straits financially), it’s hard to talk about and to find anyone to trust to be able to talk about these things. It seems that everyone has the same generic advice, the same perceptions and judgements that being in situations such as these is excrutiatingly loney and unbearable.

    I can appreciate everyone’s difficulty and perspectives. I hope the very best for Ingrid wish for you to overcome all this pain and click with your internal majesty once again. It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. 🙂

    However I want to take the time to really reach out and say thank you to Daria for being so fierce in her protection. No questions, no judgements, no pre-concieved (sorry, I can’t spell today) notions you made me feel so safe to be able to open even this much and just type. For a long time I have been holding all of this in just afraid to share, and while I know I am not sharing everything (don’t feel that safe yet), your posts made me feel like at least there’s someone who is extending the arms of shelter for someone like me, and I thank you with tears in my eyes, from the bottom of my heart. I hope this post made sense, lol.

  349.  #349dawn on April 10, 2010 at 5:52 am

    Dear Ingrid, I work in construction , running equipment. Most days beer is my valium. Its about the feminine (receiving) energy and masculine (giving ) energy. Since we have both we can change from boy or girl hat. I wear mostly at work boy hat. I dont feel too feminine in a fifty ton truck! I am softening up they say . they notice ! With you the possibilities are endless . Perhaps you can give free legal advice to those who cant afford it . Makeovers to chemo patients ! the point is dont limit your self. Find a passion and do it! Get outta the house and outta your head for a bit. Does a girl alot of good.

  350.  #350Ingrid on April 10, 2010 at 10:24 am

    Hi Dawn!!!

    Your job sounds very cool~! You must be so efficient and talented to be able to do that. I admire you~! Was thrilled to hear about it! Love to hear what jobs women do…….
    Thx for your uplifting words. I just don’t know what to do, but must think of something soon. I hate the law profession it causes me much anxiety to go back there……have got a few things up my sleeve, will report when I do have a job. Loved what you said about “getting out, and getting out of my head”. This is hard for me, as sometimes I can’t shut my brain off…..but I am trying….

    Luv and a hug to u

  351.  #351Rori Raye on April 10, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    Apple Jacks, Thank you so much for your amazing comment…and I wish to thank Daria for making you feel so safe and welcome and to extend my own arms of protection over you so you feel free to express yourself and build your power here. Love, Rori

  352.  #352Daria on April 10, 2010 at 10:25 pm

    Oh Apple Jacks THANK YOU!!!

    I feel so glad you feel this way. I feel honored and giddy!

    And i feel a little fearful, because to tell you the truth, sometimes i do judge, though i am practicing opening up

    i know that I would tell my friends that i love the advice to not do ‘that’ because i think it wouldnt feel good (to ME)!

    and because i want to believe that its possible to have abundance and support my family in ways that DO feel good to me

    and i’ve met women working this way that I felt judgemental of them, because they did not seem to have power or freedom or happiness… or BE in their sexuality

    some were doormats to men,

    or else were afraid of not being able to have abundance – i feel this way too

    though i do belive some of us ARE sexual Goddesses and WOULD feel happy and free sharing teaching dancing feeling that with the world

    i don’t want to do it. and if it doesn’t feel good for a woman i dont want her to do it either.

    i want you to feel and have everything you want, NO SACRIFICES

    i truly don’t believe in sacrifices

    i feel afraid myself!

    what do you think Apple Jacks? I feel afriad i’ve now dismantled your opinion of me and maybe left you lost and afraid

    i DO believe we are ALL GODDESSES

    i havent really met women that say, I LOVE hoeing. and meant it. I believe there are WHORE GODDESSES there indeed that really feel this way, not from low self esteem but from amazing = ness

    maybe sexual healers, sex therapists, or teachers

    or simply hey hey hey.

    i feel lost

    i dont want you to do what would feel bad to you. even if it was working at old navy as a sales clerk. if it feels bad i dont want to do it.

  353.  #353Daria on April 10, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    that said its pretty easy to see how a woman treats herself and others and see if she’s “solid” has integrity ie is someone i could be friends with- NO MATTER WHAT ELSE THAT IS WHAT MATTERS – shines through, could carry her thru bein a stripper, pimp, hoe, whatever she chooses

    it only takes a lil bit of dignity to have a little bit of dignity = Goddessness

    i feel lost in what im writing

    LOOK at TRINA!! she ROCKS!!!

    I love TRINA (the rapper)

    look at EVE

    tananannah nahnahnanah

  354.  #354dawn on April 11, 2010 at 7:47 am

    I feel betrayed . I feel sad when a goddess feels the need to change her name. My heart feels heavy for her. I feel sad she didnt feel safe. I feel safe with my sisterhood.

  355.  #355Simply Shannon on April 11, 2010 at 10:49 am

    I met a woman at church today that I believe *I* was put at the front desk today to meet. She came to me to ask a question. Her question was “is it okay to want a companion (a man) and would that get in the way of her relationship with God?” Okay wow – I’ve been struggling with this! And she’s a single momma, three years divorced from an abusive relationship. We just really hit it off. We sat together at church. We’re hopefully going to lunch this week. I think we can both learn a lot from each other. I feel excited. I’m not doing this walk alone. That is freakin’ awesome! Just really weird the things we had in common. Nothing is coincidence!

    Apple Jacks: I feel so happy hearing that Daria’s words allowed you to open up about something in your life that causes you to feel unbearable and lonely. I hope we can all be that open and non-judgmental. Welcome!!

    Daria: I loved what you just said above to Apple Jacks. I “got it” completely. And thank you for being open and planting the seed that allowed Apple Jacks to open up.

    We each have our roles to play. We each plant seeds of friendship and love and human kindness just by being who we are and sharing ourselves, sharing our feelings. Truly incredible stuff!

  356.  #356heartbeat on April 11, 2010 at 11:04 am

    Shannon – that was beautiful what you just wrote and I second what you said to Daria and Apple Jacks <3

    I feel really really happy you have a travelling companion, it feels miraculous when that happens. I had a similar experience recently. xx

  357.  #357Apple Jacks on April 11, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    Thank you everyone. I want to clarify, I don’t do the stripping or escorting for a living but I have been so dire that I was very close to considering it. Not just for me but for my family.

    The hard part is that my religious background is Islam and it’s very strict when it comes to sex and sexuality, especially for a woman. I used to think more along the lines of Ingrid and grew up around people just like her too.

    Then suddenly I find myself in these situations…falling hard in love with a man whose married is what really gave me the biggest blow. I told myself I’d never put myself in that situation, or do something like that and I used to get so angry at people people who became involved like that and here I am right in the middle of this!

    Nothing even happened between us physically because we both have been trying. We managed to avoid each other for almost three months now. But I’m discovering I am no saint at all when it comes to him so I have to take it day by day.

    I come from a culture of arranged marriages and I spent my entire 20s fighting it. I was very awkward, I had acne, small in stature, and I would be rejected a lot due to my height (not that I cared, I really didn’t want to be arranged). I’m very close with my family. It must be an Indian thingg My brothers and I are best friends and I practically raised my kid brother because I adored and doted on him and also wanted to help my parents out. I would willingly and happily give my time for him, for all of them. My parents and I were very close (lost my father five years ago though) and they treated me like I was their tender jewel as I am the only daughter. With this marriage issue though, I gave them a hard time. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. Sure we had our tiffs but they were my mommy and daddy at the end of the day regardless.

    When it came to my sexuality though, I was dormant and very closed. Around guys I just shut down! It did not start to come out, however, till a year and a half ago. I’m 32 now. During this past year and a half I have gotten more attention from men then I have ever gotten my entire life. I just act normal and then am taken by surprise at the subtle vibe I get from them…I’ve done a lot of work on myself and started applying all my tools so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised but I am. Long story short, this particular man has a way of opening me up that I have never thought would be possible for someone like me and if he wasn’t married I would have totally practiced and explored my entire sexuality with him. I don’t even care about forever it’s the now that I really want. I’m not looking for the ring or the white picket fence, just someone to explore this aspect of myself with and it helps that I think so highly of him. Before I got laid off I used to lean on him at work. I’m very alturistic and an anti cut throat person and with office poilitics and the cut throatness at work I would feel very vulnerable. Sometimes I would break down crying and he was the only person I could trun to. He was also in a position of authority, therefore his advice and direction always proved to be useful within the professional context. He always would lifted me up. He wouldn’t show this kindness just to me either. The company had a customer who tried to kill himself twice over the phone and he was the only one who would take the time calm him down and stay on with him till he got the help he needed. He had a way of going out of his way for people around him and he’s a critical thinker too. He’d never just blindly follow the company’s expectations for selling and getting money, and on numerous occasions I let him know how I admired him for that. I wasn’t coming on to him. I knew he was taken and this was work, so I saw him more like a big brother type at work. He approached ME! He asked me if I was seeing anyone and I was like, me?? His response was, “yeah you. Why not you?” I said no, and asked him why and he just honestly stated that if he wasn’t “obligated” he would have asked me out. Then we talked about how we admired one another and decided to leave it as friends, one of the first out of the numerous times we have done so. As time progressed our feelings and conversations were becoming more passionate and more heated so we just quit speaking altogether. I’be been laid off too and even before that he switched to a different department so that makes it easier to not see eachother.

    I guess I’m just overwhelmed and surprised at myself. I feel fearful and brave at the same time, if that can even exist. I feel like screaming out that, why can’t I do what I WANT for once! Then again I think, I don’t want to be a callous person who does not consider someone else’s heart either. All my life though, I have been taking care of everyone else and looked out for others, even if I didn’t know them, and I always prized myself on that trait. I guess I just have to take it one day at a time….

    Thank you all for your positive and supportive posts. I know that as a woman for me personally, I need to feel safe to process. I guess I fell for Todd (not his real name) because he made me feel so safe. Safe to cry, safe to be me, and most of all safe to be beautiful, desireable and feminine. Something I was missing. I’m going to go cry now.

  358.  #358heartbeat on April 11, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Apple Jacks – I feel a beautiful vulnerability and softness reading your story; I feel your braveness too, and I feel honoured to read it. It feels to me like this man awakened you and you were able to receive from him safely without crossing your own boundaries. I love how you feel your sadness and rage without acting on them. xx

  359.  #359Lucy on April 11, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    Shannon — I love this: “We each have our roles to play. We each plant seeds of friendship and love and human kindness just by being who we are and sharing ourselves, sharing our feelings.”

    So true! Thank you!

  360.  #360Beth on April 11, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Oh Simply Shannon, I feel so happy for you that you have met a new friend, I can hear from your words how excited you are!
    I keep praying while I am going through my transition for a good female friend. . . .My best girlfriends live far away from me, and I really haven’t made any close connections in my town, even though I have tried church, community groups, school, volunteering, etc. . .
    Thank you for sharing, I feel encouraged!

  361.  #361Apple Jacks on April 11, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    Thank you heartbeat,

    I cannot believe how many tears I’m shedding. I couldn’t even cry about this before…But I feel so much better after I typed my post out. The cobwebs are slowly being removed and clarifying on perhaps the purpose to all of this. Slowly now it’s seeming that I just might be able to let him go. I cry at the thought of it, but maybe that’s not such a bad thing. I may miss him for the rest of my life, but who better to miss then him so…wow.

  362.  #362heartbeat on April 11, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    Hugs, Apple Jacks – I find tears so healing. I am glad you are here xx
    I’m watching Shirley Valentine (again!) and shedding a few tears myself, tears at the beauty of Greece as well as resonance with the line ‘where did she go, Shirley Valentine?’ (as she looks at herself in the mirror). I feel new and improved and also lost.

  363.  #363Apple Jacks on April 11, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    Shannon, thank you so much for the last part of your post. What you said about each of us having a role to play, it’s really clicking with me at this very moment.

    Thank you everyone on here. Dawn, I feel sad I made you sad, but I also feel protected and cared for by what you said. Rori, thank you for your post and just your whole entire work, your material, this blog…everything.

    I don’t know how to put this in words, but this whole year I’ve felt like a flower bud, just openning up. Felt that way with Todd, and now I’m feeling like that again this very moment as I exchange with all of you. I’m laughing even as I cry. It’s wonderfully healing.

  364.  #364Apple Jacks on April 11, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Hugs back to you heartbeat and thank you, I’m glad I’m here too. 🙂

  365.  #365dawn on April 11, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Apple Jacks , Your heart is opening up ! Ergo the tears ! Cry my friend !! All is good ! We all luv you ! Even when you are soggy . !!

  366.  #366dawn on April 11, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Crap, now im crying !!!!

  367.  #367Apple Jacks on April 11, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    LOL, you know the sound and expression Drew Barrymore makes when she laughs through tears in her movies? That’s how I did after reading Dawn’s last post.

  368.  #368dawn on April 11, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    Apple Jacks, You will sleep good tonight ! How does it feel to go from goddess to movie star all in one day! Ha ! Now I can feel jealous !

  369.  #369Apple Jacks on April 11, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    *Chuckle* It would be nothing if I hadn’t had you guys to go through it with. You girls are awesome.

  370.  #370Apple Jacks on April 11, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Oh I forgot to say hugs back to you, heartbeat. I meant to say the earlier posts but I guess I forgot. So I’m saying it now.

  371.  #371Turtle Girl on April 11, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Wow-Shirley Valentine! I haven’t seen that film in years. Thanx Heartbeat!

  372.  #372Rori Raye on April 11, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    Apple Jacks, thank you for your story, and for working with this situation as best you can. I just KNOW a terrific man who is available and ready and has all this man’s great qualities and more will show up for you sooner than you think. Love, Rori

  373.  #373Apple Jacks on April 12, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Thank you Rori. I agree with you, I think someone great will show up for me. I must admit though, today I’m totally feeling triggered. I guess it’s just part of the process.

  374.  #374Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Apple Jacks:

    Boo hoo, aww you’re in a profession which you can’t do anything else, as you’re from another country. Well this is total BS and you know it. Matter of fact, I feel your whole post is an utter lie. And I cannot help feeling very awful cuz of it. I feel you are a liar and deceiver, and I do not trust you, or anything you say past my nose here.

    Apple Jacks: You know as well as I, and all the other women on here, there are many jobs you can do, other than stripping for men’s money, so your boo-hoo sob story just does not fly with me. Even if my h did not have an affair with some slut. It is lame. I feel and somehow know in my heart You are a sham. I feel you are here just to get riled up, and get a thrill. Somehow this is what my heart is telling me, and my gut.

    Apple Jacks:

    Why? Why need to get thrills? You are a nice person I know, yet you need not gather attention to do so. Somehow I feel and KNOW you are a fake.

    And that I feel, you are pitiful when you are working as a slut, when you could be doing so many other more worthy things.

    I do not see how any of you gals could support what’s her name in saying he makes her living being a slut/whore/stripper. This is completely un-cool. It is a disgrace for us women.

  375.  #375Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    I do not support a blog where indecency and filth is the norm. Where a complete disregard for any moral standard is simply shunned. No matter if it’s in the name of feminism, self-awareness, new-age, etc. I find the utter lack of morals simply indecent.

    Apple Jacks:

    You are living immorally and it is disgusting. If you are a stripper for men’s money, what is wrong with you? You are beautiful and worth more than $40.00 a dance. I cannot ignore this. I find it disgusting.

  376.  #376Apple Jacks on April 12, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    Ummm….Ingrid, I told everyone I don’t work in that profession. I merely said I have been (and still am) so dire that I have come very close to contemplating it, and that’s something that really caught me by surprise and made me able to see how sometimes some women just might not feel like there is any other choice. Thank you.

  377.  #377Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    Ingrid – that feels really bad to hear. i personally don’t want to hear judgements of other women. i feel really furious

    i’m sure Rori already addressed this DIRECTLY IN A COMMENT TO YOU. i would feel glad if you follow the rules put out for this blog and

    refrain from posting your opinions of what others should do here

  378.  #378Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    If you feel triggered or upset or judgemental you’re welcome to express that in feeling messages

  379.  #379Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    I feel so shaky I wanted to just go crazy and attack and I don’t want to do that when i feel furious.

  380.  #380Apple Jacks on April 12, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    Thank you Daria. Now you see why I felt safe because of you. 😉

  381.  #381Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    Dear Rori:

    Are you that hard up for funds and selling your programs that you now support degenerates? Whores? Sluts? Strippers? Prostitutes? I thought better of you Rori and of this place. Do you have any morals? I ask? Do you stand for anything?

    I was appalled you support some stripper here who is out to ruin marriages and that you do not have the guts to offer her some honest advice. I am simply appalled Rori that you don’t stand for anything, rather, whatever. Do not you think that this life has to stand for something? I do. I am astounded that in all your work, you have no moral boundaries, as if “anything goes”. This is not right Rori. There IS right and wrong. Why don’t you stand up for what is right? or are you unsure yet what it is? I am simply appalled you cannot do so.

  382.  #382Apple Jacks on April 12, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    I guess I started a firestorm here….let me be clear I am not a stripper. Again, I am NOT a stripper and I did NOT carry out an affair. I hope that’s clear now. Ingrid, I’m very sorry for the pain that you are going through.

  383.  #383Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    That’s right Ingrid. We DO support Whores Strippers and Prostitutes here.

    we even support close minded people who put others down!

    all are welcome. this is not about judgement. this is about compassion and healing.

  384.  #384heartbeat on April 12, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    I feel angry and embarrassed.

  385.  #385dawn on April 12, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    Ingrid, Im feeling very angry. I feel you are triggered by all this but I do not feel it necessary to attack someone who clearly is in so much pain. I feel let down . I feel embarrassed by your remarks. I feel bad . Ifeel lost ,,alone> I feel not good to call you a woman.I feel you miss the whole point of this.

  386.  #386Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    Apple Jacks –

    love to you beautiful Goddess.

    there are women on here who work as porn stars, there are women who strip im sure, there are women who have daughters who strip and support them

    we are all Goddesses

  387.  #387heartbeat on April 12, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Apple Jacks – I don’t care if you are a stripper or not!! I love you! You ooze compassion and sensitivity.

  388.  #388Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Daria: What is YOUR problem? I do not get you. I do not get first of all why you are always here, don’t you have a job? or something else to do? And I do not get why your mouth simply runs off, with obscenities non stop. What is your issue? You;re always mad and feeling angry over one post after another. Get over your issue for once. You are a goddess yes, and so are we, but you girlfriend have a serious problem.

    I am not feeling all too kind today. I read this and other threads and it is nothing but un-nice. It is feeling angry, etc…and problems which have nothing to do with the poster or thread but which have to do with the one responding. Daria: You are sick girlfriend. Your posts are sick. I feel you need help.

  389.  #389Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Ingrid –

    regarding sickness – my husband doesnt cheat on me with other women and i don’t take him back three times in a row and then sit and judge others


  390.  #390heartbeat on April 12, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    Ingrid I feel betrayed – I risked the anger of my fellow sirens here by empathising with the pain behind your words. WHAT ARE YOU DOING?? I feel conned.

  391.  #391dorothea on April 12, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Woah, Ingrid, don’t come up in here being like “don’t you have a job?” to other sirens. It’s so easy to cut people down. And remember, I could, if I REALLY wanted to, make legitimate low blows back at ya.

  392.  #392Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:31 pm


    Your picture is beautiful. Is that you? Anyway I find it beautiful. Still Apple Jacks: I still feel you are warped and need help if this is what you choose to do for money. There are so many other options. Go work at Ross, TJ Maax, Dominos Pizza. Having no other options except to strip for men’s money is one lame excuse, and I do not buy it.

  393.  #393dawn on April 12, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Apple Jacks, If you were a stripper id love you just the same. Id feel honored to watch you dance. I feel you are a REAL woman . I feel my arms out to you. I feel like smashing something.

  394.  #394dorothea on April 12, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Oh, I guess Daria went for the low blow…which feels fine in my eyes, because she’s returning your favor in kind.

    I’m not going there because you haven’t lashed out at me.

  395.  #395Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Ingrid –

    the point of this blog is THERAPY for US. it’s not to address the top post.

    it’s to practice speaking OUR FEELINGS.

    this is what Rori has placed as the purpose of this blog.

    it works well.

    it brings healing.

    I feel glad you’re getting in touch with your anger (my guess ) and I feel furious at the way you’re expressing it

    I THINK this would certainly push a man away

    If it were me – I would go back and take my sentences and then try to translate them to feeling messages and don’t wants – it’s something Rori has us do

  396.  #396Apple Jacks on April 12, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    *GRRRR* How do you know I am NOT doing that Ingrid? How do you know what I have been through to even CONSIDER it and yet didn’t?? Please don’t call me anymore names.

  397.  #397Daria on April 12, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    Dawn – hey! something i thought earlier – if i were feeling triggered like you, about the posts I made yesterday… – what if you go back and translate all your posts from yesterday into ONLY feeling messages and don’t wants? that could really help even more!

  398.  #398Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    I am not doing anything Dorthea except pointing out that some stripper does have other options, and for her/or anyone to say they don’t is simply lame-o.

    For Apple jacks to think she is gathering sympathy here is, IMO simply lame. She is a prostitute, and for her to come on here trying to gather sympathy is ill in my book. I feel sorry for her. She can do many jobs. For her to come here gathering sympathy that “this was all she could do to support her family” is sick, and untrue. BS.

    I do not believe some prostitute when they say “it;s what they need to do to make a living” BS. This is utter BS.

  399.  #399heartbeat on April 12, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Ingrid that compliment from you feels like a sting.

    I feel like pulling down the shutters.

  400.  #400Goodheart on April 12, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Ingrid, I need to ask you this – would Jesus turn away a whore, slut or prostitute? Would He try to make them feel diminished? Or would he embrace them & show them compassion & love?

    Do you feel that Jesus is cheering on your harsh treatment of one of His children?

  401.  #401dorothea on April 12, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    nevermind. just scrolled up and read more.

    Ingrid, for someone who is so concerned about moral decency and filth, you sure are a nasty fucking sarcastic bitch. “awww boohoo” is miss high horse morality gonna cry now? go cry to your husband…if you can find him.

    no wonder he stays away. and i hope you’ll stay the fuck away from here with your nasty bitch sarcasm until you go more into yourself with the tools before you come back here and fucking apologize. you and me are through. i feel disgusted with the time I wasted trying to explain to you how to be soft and not a fucking sarcastic nasty bitch like how you’re being.

    still love though,

  402.  #402Apple Jacks on April 12, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Dawn and heartbeat, thank you all for your love. This is good, I can take all this and shine it outside of myself. I’m not sad or unhappy. 🙂

  403.  #403Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Dear Apple jacks:

    Just the fact you would “appear” here trying to gather sympathy, saying you were here before under a different name already makes me doubt you as a person. What in the world is this?

    It is simply NOT COOL, your job. it is not. Plus, you are never going to find true love this way. Never Ever, if this is what you want. If you just want men’s money, go for it. You get what you want in this life, I guess. Apple Jacks: I do not respect you.

  404.  #404Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    Geeez Dorthea. Ok. I hear you. Thanks for your views. I never would have said such about you.\

  405.  #405Lucy on April 12, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    Ingrid – I feel SHOCKED and HORRIFIED!!!!!!!

    If I were you I would want to discover what MY FEELINGS are about all this, rather than …..

    If I were in your shoes in my marriage (and I was, but no more), I would feel furious, indescribable rage. I would not want to give my husband permission to cheat on me by tolerating it.

  406.  #406Apple Jacks on April 12, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    That’s alright, I do not need your respect.

  407.  #407Ingrid on April 12, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Geeez Louise. I am glad I have men friends other than women cuz you all have issues, let me get you a tissue as hubby says. Geez. Just what is your problem?

    I do not understand half of you and what you say/and what your issues even are. I have been in the field of law for such a long time, and been dealing with men, now I know why. Man, you gals have serious problems. Geez, no wonder why men are staying away from you all. Geez Louise.

    I am miffed at all of you. Shoot arrows right and left and then some.

    Good Grief.

  408.  #408dorothea on April 12, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    Hey Ingrid, thanks because I do actually feel heard. I appreciate that you never would have said that about me, specifically, but you would have (and did) say things in such a spirit to other sirens here.

  409.  #409dawn on April 12, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    Dear Daria, I feel eyes open. Ifeel open hearted and good. I will go ahead . I feel the pressure gone ! I feel very grateful to have had my processing with some very sincere ans kind women. I dont feel the need to attack and see where I could have said things differently. Thanks

  410.  #410Apple Jacks