How to “Approach” A Man Without Leaning Forward Or Investing In Him

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heartfatHere’s the guest post I promised you from one of the men on this blog, Terrence Thames. I asked him to talk about ways to “approach” a shy man without “Leaning Forward” or feeling bad because you’re investing in him so quickly.  He writes:

This should be interesting since I am usually coaching guys on how to approach women since women tend to not physically walk up to a man. I have never done it from the other way around. So I will start by referring to how guys approach and then relate it to how maybe we can minimize the leaning forward from women. terence

When guys approach, typically they incur the majority of the risk of rejection from the interaction. They have to put themselves out there. However, in my opinion, I believe that women approach WAY more than men do already. Probably at a 90/10 split. They just do it very subtlety. And they don’t do it by walking up.

My definition of an approach is a little different from most guys. Men just generally aren’t present enough to be aware of these approaches or maybe approach invitations. I feel that being shy is a function of something internally stopping them from being themselves. I feel this is a fear based action.

To me, this is evident from people, in general, being able to warm up out of their shyness and into their true selves. This seems to be a process of trusting that the environment that they are in or the people that are around provide a safe environment capable of holding their true selves without judgment.

I explain this so that maybe if women can understand the process of why this occurs we can come up with some ways to help to build that trust while putting in minimum investment and leaning forward. I don’t necessarily believe that this can be an investment free/leaning back void process because even positive body language and smiling requires some investment/energy as little as it is. So lets get into what women can do to approach while minimally investing. These are in order of least investment to most investment.

1. Positive body language– Obviously the most natural form of approaching and the least invested that you can get. This will be the core of this post. The most obvious form would be a smile and a long gaze (2-5 seconds). Any less than that would not be enough to let the typical guy know that it is ok to approach. I would look away first then LOOK BACK. Any time I see a woman look back at me after holding a gaze, I know, that I should approach, if I’m interested. I have trained myself that if a woman looks at me for 2 seconds, I ASSUME attraction is there and at least go meet the her. I am not shy though. As guys get more confident in approaching they won’t need the look back for them to approach. I believe that shy guys need this.

2. Wear something conversation worthy– If you want more guys in general to approach you (not just shy guys) then wear something that allows space for a man to comment or compliment you on it. Most shy guys are shy generally because they just don’t know what to say to women even if they do get the courage to approach. If they have something to say or talk about then the likely hood of him approaching is much higher. Synergistically this works well in compliment with body language and presence (displaying your femininity) to draw men into you.

3. Positioning– If you don’t want to walk up to him. Position yourself BY HIM. You are not actually approaching him but it will be easier for a shy guy to start a conversation if you are physically around him to begin with. You can experiment with combining using your body language (playing with hair, crossing legs towards him, exposing of the neck, etc..) and eye contact with being around him for a much more synergistic affect. A lot of times when I am out and I make eye contact with a woman in one area and I go about my business and then notice a few minutes later she is really close in my proximity or all of a sudden brushes up against me, I ASSUME attraction and approach, if I’m interested. This is amplified with positive body language.

4. Situational or Help approaching– This in my opinion seems to be the most invested you can become without feeling masculine. If you are asking about something that involves your surroundings or asking for help (don’t go overboard with this) ..then I have no reason to feel that you are over-invested. (I.e..”Do you have the time?” ). Again while doing this make sure your body language is open to them.

5. Just saying Hi– This is equal to #4 as the most invested you should have to go without questioning a shy guy’s presence or attractiveness to you. By this point you have done all you can do and it is up to him to sink or swim.

Shy guys are generally good guys that miss a lot of opportunities to meet women due to their lack of will/ability to approach women. I feel that women miss opportunities of meeting these good guys because they are more sensitive to rejection and it doesn’t feel natural for them to approach a guy. To me both lose here.

For some women this is a weed-out process for guys that are less aggressive/dominant in a social environment. I have heard this quite a bit on this blog. At the same time they worry if they are going to end up another notch on someones bedpost. I can respect this and personally I find it not all that attractive when a woman approaches me too aggressively.

I find that if a woman approaches me, depending on the approach, I think — “That’s kinda cute… she’s trying to be a guy right now.”  I don’t think it really affects my overall attractiveness towards her, but it definitely feels masculine.

The only way it doesn’t feel somewhat masculine is if they are asking for help. (I always take it — “They are asking me to lead them.”) Asking about something in the environment. There is something in me that craves being able to pick up on these subtle cues and going and getting what I want.  I think that because when I do get what I want it is much more satisfying that way.

All this being said, be cautious of these few things

1. This will not always work with getting shy guys to approach and engage you. The fear of approaching and being rejected can be crippling as a result they still will not invest in the interaction. This is out of your control and is NOT because of you as a woman. This is an internal problem that needs to be worked out with them.

2. They may NOT always be attracted to you- I mentioned a lot above about assumed attraction. It is just that..assumed. Its what I use to get over anxiety of possibly being rejected. The reality is that everybody gets rejected.

Even if body language seems inviting it may be a miss cue. I relate it to playing black jack. You can only play the odds and trust that you are making the right educated decision. I am not afraid to be wrong and that gives me confidence. The more out dependency you have the more this part will not affect you.

I hope it helps. Like I said this is the first post I have ever had geared towards women and not men. Any criticism is greatly appreciated.

From Rori:  I asked Terrance for more – around his “what to wear” suggestion – and he came up with this:

I left a few things out to invoke some questions but I have some ideas on what to wear. It really depends on the style of the woman and the type of guy she wants to attract. For instance one time I went to a hotel bar in Hollywood and I noticed out of all the women in there one that had these really tight snakeskin pants on that looked really attractive. I had something to talk about AND it compelled me to approach and get to know her. That’s kinda what I mean. Does that make sense?


From Rori:  I love Terrance’s attitude and I think what he has to say is very helpful.  If you like his style, go visit  him at his new blog and let him know what you think…

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  1.  #1Maria on July 24, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    even a shy guy may not be attracted to you. My reason of NOT approaching men is that l do think l can get discouraged of the fact that they might not be attracted.

  2.  #2Allen Taylor on July 24, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Nice writing. You are on my RSS reader now so I can read more from you down the road.

    Allen Taylor

  3.  #3Mercedes on July 24, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    I knew a guy once that carried a stuffed bunny in his shirt pocket. When women would ask him about it (and we ALL asked him about it) he would say “It’s so you would come up and talk to me.” It was cute…and it worked. LOL

    Much Love,

  4.  #4Robin on July 24, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    Wow Mercedes, that made me laugh, thank you, I needed that..

    here’s the latest email from my 5 hr. guy. He got very upset w me because I didnt call him after I missed his bday. I wished him happy bday, but he said he was wanting me to call him (after the fact) and told me if he could drive 700 miles to visit me, I could at least press a botton to make a call..

    But something still just didnt feel right, so I told him I could feel how upset he was and that I didnt intend to upset him, that I felt bad that he was so upset, but that I didnt want to feel like I was chasing him, that I dont feel good as a woman when Im chasing men..

    So here’s the email I got after 2 days of no contact

    “Hey Robin,

    U know what to do when u get a chance. !!
    U have to call…

    I got your text saying that feel like its Chasing etc.
    Well i don’t know what u feel.

    I feel that i drove like 1250 miles in total for you in two visits. i guess I have done my part of chasing.

    its your turn.”

    He then went on with some small talk, asked me about an upcoming concert Im doing and wished me luck on it, etc..

    So now what? Any thoughts?
    Am I not waterwheeling back? Am I being a bitch??

  5.  #5Fernando on July 24, 2009 at 6:10 pm


    I’ve gotta take his side. I mean, how would it feel if someone you really cared about didn’t even call on your birthday? I’d be really hurt too, wouldn’t you?

    I’m all for not chasing, but there’s a certain point where the lack of chasing is just rude, and guys will start to feel like you don’t care about us! It feels to me like this is where the guy’s at. He’s invested a lot in you, and showing some appreciation (yes, maybe even a bit of chasing, really not unreasonable for you to go to him at this point) is going to go a long way.

    Both men and women can take dating the wrong way and become too aloof, and that’s just going to lead to everyone’s heartbreak. Yes, guys have to be non-needy, but they still have to want the woman on some level. Yes, women shouldn’t chase, but they should do and say things to acknowledge the man willing to step up. This guy has really stepped up, and I feel hurt for him. He’s REALLY trying for him, and you’re letting the letter of the law get in the way of interpretation.

    I hope that makes sense…

  6.  #6Fernando on July 24, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    And Terrence: Brilliant post.

  7.  #7Daria on July 24, 2009 at 6:29 pm


    it sounds like he’s holding the stuff he’s done for you against you. That’s not how it works. A good guy would feel happy to give to you without throwing it in your face.

    You did not know it was his birthday. There is no need to do anything special or feel in any way guilty.

    This guy sounds like he “can’t do the job.” I would drop him or else if you want to try to talk to him about it…

    If you want to, experiment with calling him to talk about this to see how you feel…
    ex… “I’m feeling uncomfortable… I feel bad… it feels like you’re holding it against me that you came to see me… I’m feeling weird and guilty and like I’m a bitch… I would like to feel adored and protected, and I’m not feeling like that…”

    something along those lines… ie speak your truth and really get it out there that his way of framing this is not feeling good to you…

    I feel angry at him and I do not want you to worry about what to do to please him… thats his job.

  8.  #8tinque on July 24, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    It seems to me that there is a fine line between leaning back yet still being loving, caring, compassionate and considerate and leaning back to the point of seeming indifference.
    I suppose that line would be different for every couple, and each individual has his/her own way/style for showing love and consideration. One must be attuned to the nuances.
    This case feels messy to me. There is ick on both sides, and there is also good stuff. You both feel awkward with each other to me from what I read. If I may suggest Robin that you sink deeply into yourself and FEEL what feels right or not so right. Long distance relationships are difficult at best, doable yet not so smooth. It’s easier to lose connection, misunderstand and such.

  9.  #9Ann on July 24, 2009 at 7:18 pm

    Nice picture Terrence. Thanks for taking the time to share with us. Thank you for working with other men helping them to gain the confidence to approach women. I feel both sexes are alike, in as a rule “neither bite” well maybe occassionally lol

    I really appreciate when the guys here share with us too.

    Robin I feel I don’t wish to sound too harsh here. Your man friend hit upon one of my triggers I HATE for anyone to throw something they did for me in my face. How he can blame you for something you didn’t know about is beyond me.

  10.  #10Daria on July 24, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    I’m feeling sad and kinda lonely.

    Yesterday was my friend’s birthday party and I went with him and 3 of our other guy friends to a dance club. One of the guys is the one I was/am in love with that is having a baby… who by the way recently has been very nice to me and stepping up to take care of the financial thingy I kept getting upset about.

    However I felt weird around him. I felt much stronger and more able to observe myself…

    I observed… that when I hear his voice it’s like I feel very alert and all other noise and even feeling fade into the background… it’s like his voice is all there is this happens especially if he is in another room talking to someone…

    so I “ran away” from being around him the best I could, avoided looking at him, turned my back to him and danced with other guys the whole time…

    I still felt bad when at one point they were around me and he said this other girl was pretty..

    I felt sad like crying and I was pouting on a chair and allowed myself to feel sad… which felt good and then I started feeling better…

    at one point he came by and asked me why i was sitting there (alone) and I said I had just gotten there… (I didn’t know what to say)…

    I freakin turned the other way consistently…

    I still feel so happy around him I wonder if I’m just getting oxytocin shots or soemthing… I feel good and alert hearing his voice and etc…

    I feel glad that someday I will feel so good in my heart and so thrilled about someone who loves me… that’s what I’m telling myself in order to frame this for myself in a positive way…

  11.  #11Rori Raye on July 24, 2009 at 10:03 pm

    Robin, can you clarify for me if I’ve got this wrong in terms of what went down with you and this man?…

    If he ASKED you to call, you are not chasing him when you call. Plain and simple. Not calling when he asks you to call is resistance.

    Also, he doesn’t seem to have lost interest…

    Please look into this and ask yourself if you’re not waterwheeling back, and just holding back. Let me know, and I’ll have a better comment about this…perhaps jump into a post.

    The whole point of Leaning Back is that it’s an “antidote” to Leaning Forward…It’s a Tool — not a “rule.” It’s for those of us (all of us) who instinctively work too hard for a man and get too invested too soon.

    Holding back, being defensive, resisting can also sort of “look” like Leaning Back from the outside. But it FEELS different. Holding back is TENSE. It’s CLOSED. Leaning Back is a big ole Welcome sign. It’s an Invitation.
    Love, Rori

  12.  #12Robin on July 24, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    Wow thank you!!

    Fernando, thank you for giving me a man’s perspective, I feel really appreciative that you shared your opinion with me

    Daria, thank you, I love the idea of experimenting, thank you so much.

    Tinque, thank you, Im gonna definitely need to sink, thank you for reminding me,

    Ann, thank you for caring, it feels good to have support. I felt triggered, but also could tell that I’ve triggered him as well,

    PS. Daria, you did GREAT!!! It reminds me of the ‘rock star’ concept, and that s@#% is tough!! I know the feeling…and to be able to hang with someone that you used to be involved with/still have feelings for is great, and is a huge show of inner strength( strong part of strong surrender, reverse bonbon) as long as it FEELS GOOD.

    Im still ten feet away from my ex and his gf every weekend, and most of the time Im just like ‘whatever’, and I melt or I ragdoll, or I turn myself into honey or crystal…but its getting harder b/c he’s going to spain to see his family and shes going w him for part of his vacation, so that feels awful, and of course everyone around me is saying ‘oh he must be getting married/engaged, he must be getting ready to announce it, he must be serious about her’… BBLEH……..EWWW…the trigger for this came in the form of flyers put all over the church for my upcoming concert, and thats how he found out, and I felt guilty about not mentioning it to him, and then scared when I remembered our past together…but it was on a very subconscious level, so Im feeling better riffing through my fear and guilt and sadness…

    So if you ever feel bad Daria, you can always just walk away (or turn away, as you did :), and of course riff..

    I feel tickled-pink hearing how well you did!!!

  13.  #13Robin on July 24, 2009 at 10:51 pm


    Thank you!!!

    He never actually came out and asked, but he did indicate, and that’s where I got a little confused..

    Part of me felt irritated that he just wouldn’t just say ‘call me’, and part of me felt guilty b/c he did actually come so far to see me

    I didnt hear from him and then got a text describing a party, and then another about how I forgot his bday, I didnt know about it, but wished him happy bday and he said jokingly I would have to make it up to him, so I made a joke back, and again didnt hear from him for a week. The next msg was ‘no call? you didnt find it necessary to wish by calling? whats going on? If I can drive 700 miles you could at least click a button to call’

    Ok, and I feel guilty writing this, I responded to his text, told him I felt bad that he was upset, he told me to call him only if I wanted to talk to him, I told him I did want to talk, that if I didnt, I would have said that, he said ‘yeah? then if you like talking to me why dont you call? If desire is not from within, its vain’ ?

    Thats when I told him I honestly didnt know it was his bday and didnt mean to upset him, and that I still dont know how I feel about initiating at the beginning, I dont want to feel like Im chasing him, I dont feel good as a woman when Im chasing men, & that I DO feel desire for him and that it does feel great hearing his voice on phone..

    And then the text..

    Maybe Im confused about how to handle the long distance thing, he did make a wonderful effort and I really do feel appreciative to him for coming to see,

    The 2nd time he came, we did had a bit of a misunderstanding, I spoke the truth for me to him while he was here, but really felt like, and still feel like we need to talk about what happened when he was here, but I just dont feel that texting or emailing is appropriate for the topic.

    As I feel my way through this whole experience, I want to talk to him..

    I certainly dont mean to be withholding, I want to waterwheel back, Im not trying to be closed off,

    and thats part of what came up when he was here, he was pushing for sex, I said no, and he was very persistent, and I finally had to ask him to leave, Im not angry about it, but Im not gonna do anything I feel uncomfortable with…

  14.  #14alias girl on July 24, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    thank you rori for clarifying that not calling when a guy asks me to call is resistance.

    i feel good to read that. i have been resisting and holding back thinking i was leaning back. i feel embarrassed and heat rising in my body. i love my shame and embarrassment.

    what about when a guy calls and doesn’t leave a message and expects me to call back? i feel blech about that.

    i feel bad that i think if i make “mistakes” i’ll lose my forever guy. 🙁 I feel sad that i think i have to be perfect in order to be loved.

    i love my perfectionism. i love healing. i love becoming more open. i love my hopefulness about human relationships.

  15.  #15tinque on July 24, 2009 at 11:06 pm

    I remember now your post about him pushing for sex. I hadn’t put it together before. I so applaud you for holding your own in that situation. In the past I was not so strong and gave in to men because I felt I had no choice, or really to be honest, it was a wanting to be accepted, wanting to be wanted, but of course this was long before I learned to want and accept myself.
    So brava to you for that. As for the rest, I don’t want to intrude on Rori’s territory, but this still feels icky to me, especially when put together with the last time he was here and was, well, to put it nicely, not very respectful.
    I really want to say he was rather a dick. Sorry…

  16.  #16Robin on July 24, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    The truth is Rori, I actually feel confused about whether Im waterwheeling back or holding back..

    I feel confused b/c if this were a guy here in town, it wouldnt be such a thing,

    But the distance automatically makes it just about impossible for me to level the playing field, Im having a hard time treating him equally with the others because of the fact that he is so far away and because he did come twice to see me.

    The distance he traveled alone makes me feel confused, and yet part of me is saying he’s doing not only what he wants, but what he would need to do to see me (initially, I guess ??) because I wouldn’t feel good driving to him (just yet)

  17.  #17Robin on July 24, 2009 at 11:12 pm


    Thank you for your words of encouragement, it feels great to read them! Smiles 🙂 🙂

    Yes, I felt put off a bit and to be completely honest, that was my fuel for just having a blase attitude about whether or not I ever heard from him again.

    And yet I do feel good talking to him..

    I just feel confused…….

  18.  #18tinque on July 24, 2009 at 11:12 pm

    Oh AliasGirl, the perfectionism thing…Sigh. I know that one so well. But you know, I’ve come to find out that my man LOVES it when I’m not perfect, eg. when my very infrequent temper flares, inside I may feel a little ashamed or scared even, fearful that I will be rejected for being I don’t know, inappropriate, for losing my “perfect” facade, but much to my delight, he finds it adorable which of course defuses it instantly.
    No man you would want would want you “perfect”. How boring would that be and in any case, you are already perfect just as you are.

  19.  #19tinque on July 24, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    Robin – Sink deeper. Listen to your heart. What is she really saying. xxoo

  20.  #20Tracy on July 24, 2009 at 11:34 pm

    I feel sad but glad that you stood your ground and did what u felt comfortable with….
    I have been really working on leaning back because for me it was a major problem and i kept feeling like i was over functioning in everything….
    I loved what tinque said about creating a balance where u lean back without feeling indifferent…..its a great thing to do and i feel that what i really need to work on is really going deep down into my feelings and then expressing them… sounds easy to say and i read so much everyday about feeling my feelings and processing through them,however it feels like a process and i feel that i need to be patient with myself and love and dig deep into myself….i feel that i am learning to do that everyday…..
    i feel that we all have different experiences that are unique to each one of us…..for me the best i can do is find my happiness and love in those experiences and learn to live a loving and fulfilling life…

  21.  #21Tracy on July 25, 2009 at 12:31 am

    Tinque u wrote….
    ……in the past I was not so strong and gave in to men because I felt I had no choice, or really to be honest, it was a wanting to be accepted, wanting to be wanted, but of course this was long before I learned to want and accept myself……
    I feel that i am battling with this at this moment…how it feels to give in to a man because u really want to and u love being with him…..and how it feels when what u really want is to feel needed loved and wanted…
    I feel confused about this because i am battling with establishing boundaries and learning to accept my feelings and doing what feels right….I feel stuck and confused because a part of me wants to go back to the past and lean forward…..
    The part of me that longs to feel wanted and needed wants to come out and grab all the love it can get…
    how do u begin with from this feeling to accepting yourself and going with what feels right?

  22.  #22Fernando on July 25, 2009 at 12:58 am

    I LOVE where this conversation has gone! I have a tear in my eye because the beauty is overwhelming, it’s fantastic!

    OK, first, Robin: I wasn’t aware that you didn’t know that it was his birthday. In that case, I still see where he’s at, and he’s trying to play it cool and give you your space and respecting you, BECAUSE HE REALLY LIKES YOU! I tell guys this all the time, and I think you should hear it too: assume he adores you already. You’re unable to screw this up. What do you do now?

    Rori, I love your response. “Tools not rules!” is now my new slogan for my advice. Beautifully said.

    Women, please know that men truly don’t want the perfect girl. I’ve been talking to EVERYONE I meet in the past three days about relationships, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that men do not want a “perfect women.” I don’t think you want a “perfect man.” I mean, what the hell are we going to argue about and get passionate over?

    What people truly want as far as relationships is the perfect person for THEM!

    Yes, there is a romantic side of me that thinks there’s a perfect someone for each person. Maybe there’s a few. I don’t think it’s necessarily ordained by God or whatever, but some people’s “torques” fit better with our respective “torques” than others.

    I want as crass as to call it “our own flavor of crazy,” and while the words may not be romantic, I trust you can see the message. I live in a “normal” family, mom and dad still together, middle class, nothing overly traumatic in my life… which is actually totally weird for most people,(since the majority of American couples divorce) which makes me the crazy, odd guy!

    I’m saying that you should love yourself. It’s impossible to love someone who doesn’t accept themselves, because you can never meet “the real them.” Don’t be afraid to air out your dirty laundry, own it! I mean, yes, I love a woman who cleans up and looks stunning when we take her out to a fancy restaurant, (totally can’t spell restaurant without spell check) but there is infinite allure to the woman not afraid to rock sweats, a beater, and a ponytail. Own it!

    I hate seeing any of you girls hurt, and Daria, your situation especially. Man or woman, it hurts SO BAD when the person you once (and still do) have feelings for is with someone else like you can no longer be. I don’t know how to make it easier, and I used to dwell on it. I no longer dwell on things, I do like you, and let my emotions flow (preferably in private) and remember the beautiful times we shared and how that person helped make me a better man. (Obviously, in your case, woman.) I’m in awe of the strength you displayed in that situation. 🙂 You should feel overwhelmingly proud of yourself girl!

  23.  #23alias girl on July 25, 2009 at 2:53 am

    i feel very happy to read everyone’s words.

    also i feel tears to hear i don’t have to be perfect. thank you tinque and fernando.

    terrance thank you for a wonderful post.

    robin i feel empathy. sometimes i feel both good and not good about the same man. i guess like rori says just stay tru to our happy ever after? ? i don’t know actually. i feel confused sometimes.

    i feel good people are offering daria lots of support. i feel supportive too but i don’t know the right words to say always.

    i feel hopeful. thank you for helping me become a more loving and open person. thank you for my fabulous new financial avenues streaming in revenue to me. thank you for a really fun life and a great man. thank you for MY NEW CONDO or living place that is awesome.

  24.  #24Katja on July 25, 2009 at 3:22 am


    I am in a weird situation right now and I need some advice or opinions…I feel really bad about all this.

    As many of you know, my boyfriend and father of my little daughter died three months ago totally unexpected. I am still grieving but doing better than expected even though its the worst pain I ever experienced.

    I have a lot of support from his and my family and his friends (mostly men),too. It happened that I had many conversations with one of his best friends and we actually discovered that we get along really well. We were only able to talk by phone as he lives in another country since four months. We usually talked at least two hours but then the talks expanded to four to five hours. We talked a lot about our feelings concerning the death of my boyfriend,about ourselves,life in general,everything you can imagine,but mostly about how we feel. Our conversations got more personal with every call and we started to like each other more and more. He told me that I am really pretty as we were talking over skype and stuff like that. (We took turns with the calling in the beginning,he called me first,then I would call him one or two weeks later,then he again,then I called two times in a row but with one week in between,and so on). About one month ago I called him and we were talking and suddenly he told me completely out of the blue that he likes me really really much and that he starts to feel something for me and it felt like shock first. But then I felt overwhelmed and started to recognize that I feel the same way. He was talking about us (even though there was no “us” yet) and that he would come back to germany to at least visit me and to see if and how his feelings change and expand when we actually meet each other. But he said that he has to work there for at least one month and then he will come visit me. I experienced him always as an honest person and someone who is a serious and thoughtful person. And he even said that he thought about this a lot and that he feels weird because I am the girlfriend of his best friend who just died,etc.

    I felt overwhelmed. I felt the same for him,I looked forward to meeting him in person and I felt really good about all that.

    I didn’t call him for almost two weeks after this conversation and he didn’t call either. Then I felt confused about all this and felt the need to call him and talk to him. I did. He seemed to be happy to hear my voice but something was different and suddenly he talked about having found a new job and moving within the country he lives in and being exited about that. I felt kind of skipped (I don’t know if this is the right word…kind of ignored?!). I got quiet on the phone and then I asked him if that means that he won’t come back to germany any time soon to which he responded with yes. I responded with “ok”. He talked a bit and I remained mostly quiet as I felt disappointed. Then he said that he feels that there is something emotional growing between us,that we are developing kind of an intimate but platonic relationship. I asked why platonic (or something like that,I don’t remember exactly) and he said that we don’t have cyber sex or phone sex or something like that (I don’t remember that exactly either). We were talking a bit but then his other phone rang,he said it was his mother, he answered it and said he would call her again later. We were talking but it was more superficial as I still felt disappointed and also confused about that relationship-stuff he said. I didn’t understand what he meant. I didn’t ask him though as I felt kind of angry. I was too much in my head about all this stuff. Then his mother called again and he said he would call me back then. I fell asleep on the couch while waiting for him to call me back-and he never did. (That happened before on that evening as he told me he really feels something for me and he later claimed that something was wrong with the phone as he wasn’t able to call me even though he tried a few times.) So he didn’t call me back as he said. I woke up some hours later on the couch and after becoming aware that he hadn’t called back I wrote him an angry text message and an angry email with mostly feeling messages and some “I don’t wants” in between. I didn’t get a reply to those either. Some days went by without anything happening. I tried to focus on myself,to find my feelings,to release my anger (which was mostly anger at myself for being so stupid to get caught up so quickly just because he said he feels something for me). Then I re-read the angry email I sent him and felt embarrassed for having written so much and for acting so over-emotionally. So I wrote another email with only feeling messages. I told him that I felt disappointed and that I felt drawn to him and that I feel embarrassed about that other email and that I feel silly about taking everything he had said so seriously. I wrote that I feel kind of hurt and sad and weird and confused about all that. I wrote that I feel afraid about maybe getting wrong what he had said and maybe having interpreted in a wrong way. I wrote that I feel insecure about my feelings as well.

    In the end I asked him what he thinks.

    That was four days ago (ok,four days is nothing) and so far no reply from him. But my head is spinning round and round and as much as I try I don’t seem to be able to stop thinking about all this. I still feel I got something wrong. Is there some misunderstanding I just overlooked or am I an idiot for getting his words wrong?

    Or doesn’t it mean anything when a guy tells you stuff like that?

    I feel confused and I feel even more confused as I am still grieving and crying every day over the loss of my boyfriend and I feel treated badly by this other guy. But in the end I let him and so I should be angry at myself or what do you think?

    I’d like to hear your advices and opinions.

    Thank you!

    P.S. I have to add that there was some point before he told me he feels something for me where he suggested that I come visiting him with my daughter and I said I would and we made some superficial plans but then I pulled back and just wrote a text message saying “I don’t want to visit you,I’m sorry.” I explained that later in an email and he never seemed angry at me about this.

  25.  #25Tina on July 25, 2009 at 9:36 am

    I left my candy in Pierre’s car, what do I do?. call?. um Pierre I left the candy present in your car, can I have it back please?. it’s a dilema. We parted, I said “thank you” he gave me a hug.

    The campfire date didnt work out because it rained. His gps and cellphone didnt work , my area is in the country , as in bear and deer running across my front yard. I forgot to mention that to Pierre , about the cellphone gps thing. We went to a near by town and listened to a band,danced then I sang karaoke, he said I had guts then coffee, we were to tired to drive back to my house so got a hotel room in the town. Pierre and I made it very clear to each other that there would be no sex, he did however give me a very sensual massage, from head to toe, he said I looked like I needed one 🙂 . I felt comfortable so this was no problem for me, however feelings did come up during, such as the question of sex, I felt hesitant and expectant .He said that if we were going to have sex then it would be a very different type of massage. He asked me how I felt through the sensual massage. This massage lasted for 3 hours. He asked me if I felt bad in anyway, I said no, I havnt had time to regret anything but true to his word no sexual intercourse.

    I would not recommend recieving a such a massage from a man you’ve known for 8hrs, I was lacking this in my 1 1/2yr relationship, maybe he picked up on my vibe 🙂 dunno?. So would calling him and asking for my candy be leaning forward?.
    so do I call him and ask him for my candy?.

  26.  #26Tina on July 25, 2009 at 9:39 am

    The sweet maple candy was a gift from him.

  27.  #27tinque on July 25, 2009 at 10:14 am

    “how do u begin with from this feeling to accepting yourself and going with what feels right?”
    Tracy – It’s an ongoing process, and there are times when you may “give in” to old patterns for whatever reason (and really it’s not very useful to overanalyze the why), yet if you can tell yourself that even though it may seem like you slipped, you haven’t, for once that first step is taken, there is no going back, sideways a little, maybe, but not back.

  28.  #28tinque on July 25, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Katja- Your head is spinning. Of course it’s spinning. You don’t know which end is up, down, or any which way. Sweetheart, you just lost a big love in your life. Three months is nothing. Please, please give yourself a break. Be kind and gentle, soft with yourself. You’ve done nothing wrong. You can’t know what’s going on this other man’s head. He may be as confused as you. He lost hid dear friend after all.
    Please try to replace your screaming, lying gremlin voices with a sweet, soothing one. Go take a long bubble bath. Go do things that make you feel GOOD. Whatever this other man does, he will do. It’s not for you to control. You can’t anyway.
    And for what it’s worth, It’s too soon, yet if nice, sensuous feelings flow through you, let them. It’s good therapy. Just shut down the voices. xxoo

  29.  #29Fernando on July 25, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Katja: It feels to me that he’s as confused as you are. He’s probably dealing with feelings that he’s betraying his best friend by having a relationship with you, and you’re catching the worst of it. It has nothing at all to do with who you are, and everything to do with his own internal moral code. Sadly, this has lead him to back track and cause you to get hurt, but I think he’s really trying to do right by everyone.

    I’m going to totally agree with tinque and say your heart probably needs a break, or it’s going to burst!

  30.  #30Daria on July 25, 2009 at 11:27 am

    Hey thanks everyone for feeling my situation! Yesterday I was thinking a lot about it and felt sad, in conjunction with my hormone cycle. Today I feel good and I don’t feel worried about it.

    I feel excited because I feel really helped by something one of the guys said on here. It was about shyness… he said something about it preventing you from looking where you want to look, etc! Yes! It feels like a shield or something…

    now that I recognize that it almost feels like frozenness… I can tell it’s my shyness thats blocking me and somehow I am able to melt it on the spot… ex.. if I feel like no I can’t look this person in the eye I just do anyway and let the feelings flow through me because i am realizing its just frozen spot in my feelings…

    so i’ve been feeling really good about this

    also some how for me this connects with other blocks I have for example i’ve noticed that sometimes when I try to imagine my perfect something, like what I want to happen I get nv’s that shut me down and start thinking of bad things that happened in the past that prevented me from having what i want… so now I somehow am able to accept those nv’s and continue imagining more, like melting the shield the nv’s are putting up…

    I am actually feeling these shields on my body, like mostly around my temples and side of my face, or arm…

    i’m feeling really good about the shyness thing, I never totally made the connection that it stops me from looking where I want to look somehow that phrase really triggered something GOOD for me that’s letting me free myself from it.

  31.  #31Daria on July 25, 2009 at 11:33 am

    It was Dan who said it and this is what he said:

    “I’ve come to believe that shyness isn’t so much who a person is so much as something that stops someone from being who they are.

    In my case, shyness felt like being caged in my own body, locked away from saying or doing the things I wanted, unable to touch or be touched. It was like trying to drive with the parking brake on.”

    Apparently he didn’t even say something about not being able to look where you want to look but as I read through the comment that is what I got from it from some reason and it kept playing in my head and then applying to real life where I’m now able to look more where I want to look while before when I felt shy I felt prevented from looking in that direction.

  32.  #32Tracy on July 25, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Thanks for the encouragement.I really do feel that i am making progress and for the first time actually expressing my feelings……I feel that i am slowly opening up and letting out my inner fears and disappointments and just learning to love myself no matter how many slip-ups…
    I do feel different……i was feeling unsure the other day on taking a trip with a guy i really like but not sure about how he feels about me…..i told him that,……that i was not feeling sure about the whole trip but i really wanted to spend time with him…..the timing was wrong…
    Later on he called me and canceled and explained that he’d also thought about it and felt that maybe it wasn’t a good idea as well….
    I feel relieved that i spoke out and i triggered him to change his mind about it….without any drama…
    I do feel disappointed that i will not be able to see him but i feel glad that i avoided a situation that did not feel good for me…this feels so huge for me and feel really happy about it…..i don’t feel rejected or angry….
    I feel grateful and full of hope that i am really getting intouch with my feelings

  33.  #33alias girl on July 25, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    katja i feel compassion. i would probably feel very overwhelmed and confused and vulnerable and easiy triggered in that kind of situation. i would tell myself i love myself no matter what and really increase my level of self care and try and surround myself with support and understanding people.

    like others have mentioned nobody can know the motivations of another person. i imagine the best friend guy is very confused and probably doesn’t even know what’s going on for himself . i would try and follow my feelings. if it feels good to keep talking to him then maybe keep on doing it. maybe the relationship is helpful for the grieving process but a little too explosive to go further at this moment in time. if i felt overwhlemed by it i might back off. who knows though since i am not in that situation i cannot know for sure what i would do. i would follow my feelings and make decisions that support my highest level of self care. i feel two confused grieving people when i read your comment. i feel an ache in my heart and a wanting to send love and healing vibrations to you.

  34.  #34Terrance Thames on July 25, 2009 at 4:02 pm


    Thanks everyone for the positive feedback on the post. I hope it helps everyone close the gap in communicating our true intents with out fear.

    Katja- That is a really complicated situation and I really, really feel for you. I have never been in that situation before but if I were in it, I feel that a ton of healing needed to be done on my part before putting myself in a situation to potentially get hurt.

  35.  #35Dorothea on July 25, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Dear Rori and friends,
    Everything we work on and talk about here is working so well for me….almost too well. Now I need guidance!

    An extremely gorgeous man has taken a preliminary interest in me. He was drawn in by my leaning back (women are ALWAYS trying to get a date with him). I feel nervous and insecure because I am not gorgeous like he is by cultural standards. In fact, I spent my whole childhood and teen years being told by my peers that I am painfully ugly and smelly. No joke. But it’s okay to laugh:P

    I feel intrigued by a lot of this man’s personality…we met once for less than a minute by chance and then he started emailing me when our mutual friend gave him my address. I feel drawn to him and when I think about how he only met me for just a moment and is starting to lose his mental picture of what I look like (he told me this yesterday in a text message), I feel nervous and freaked he is going to realize he was on crack the day he took an interest in me and I’ll turn out to be the ugly blind date gone wrong.

    Basically, I feel interested in taking this opportunity to work through some of this insecurity that still looms around…but the truth is I’m not “hot” like this guy. I have acne and a big nose. I still draw all kinds of male energy in on a daily basis but this feels different. I would really appreciate it if I could get some help in dealing with this difference in the quality of our looks so that I can enjoy my time with him and not feel like the ugly duckling he’s accidentally stuck with for a date.

    Thanks and much love.

  36.  #36Fernando on July 25, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Dorothea: I’m about to tell you a secret, and if too many people find out I’m pretty sure I’ll go missing. If no one hears from me in the next week, send a search party!

    Personality trumps looks in both men and women. Some people know this about men, but very few know this about women. I promise, I’ll pass up the proverbial cheerleading captain for the girl in the library who’s sweet to everyone and can have a real conversation with me beyond the “Tehes” of women who rely only on their looks.

    This man who has choice is clearly one of those guys who has a higher standard than the standard T&A and blonde hair that Maxim, Cosmo, and pretty much every other magazine and commercial would imply comes with a penis. He already likes you, now you just have to keep leaning back and stay wonderful!

  37.  #37Ann on July 25, 2009 at 4:41 pm


    I hope this helps I want to quote you something that was said to me one time. “All your “flaws” he’s already seen and is still interested, so why are you worrying about them?

    I took that to mean a man can see what we look like and what we think are flaws evidently aren’t to him or he wouldn’t be interested. So I try not to compare myself with others. Try to relax and go with the flow.

  38.  #38Ann on July 25, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    Fernando we think alot alike lol. When people ask me what is the first thing I notice about a man my answer has always been personality. They’ll say looks aren’t important? Which I reply “Looks are icing on the cake.”

    A person can be drop dead gorgeous but if their personality sucks I’d just as soon stay away from them.

    I feel people worry way too much about looks. Believe me I have my “flaws” that still concern me from time to time but I’m learning to love and accept all of me.

  39.  #39Ann on July 25, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    HI Katja “HUGS” I feel so sorry for you and this man, you’ve both suffered a terrible loss and are still grieving. I hope you can help each other through it.

  40.  #40tinque on July 25, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    Dorothea – I had a discussion with my man a while back about something like this, and he said that a pretty face is only interesting for maybe five minutes unless there is something more.
    What I’ve been told is that men may appear superficial in that respect in that their eyes are drawn to pretty faces and forms, but when it comes down to it, if a man feels safe with you, you have his heart forever.

  41.  #41Terrance Thames on July 25, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    I’d like to add that when I see people that are superficially drawn to looks outside of the intial attraction, I usually see that there are some validation issues going on with the person. Well this is what I find with guys at least. They are insecure of what other people are going to think of them.

    I feel the only validation that I need is the validation from my body and what I feel. Who cares about anybody else.

    On a side note I had a really interesting thing happen to me with a girl that I am dating. Well actually 2 interesting things. The first one leads into the other.

    She had a breakdown with me where she started crying about her biological clock is ticking. At the time she so happened to have been drinking and that day started that fun time of the month. She got really mad at me for I really don’t remember why and even threw a dinner roll at me! I listened to everything she had to say. And when she cried I didn’t move and didn’t react or say anything. I just held her and kept eye contact with her while she was crying. I believe it got so intense with her that when she held my eye contact when crying she could not stop. She actually had to break it to stop. Any thoughts on this?

    This happens last night:

    I was in my room talking on the phone and I guess my roomates let her in and I didn’t know. She walked into my room and immediately started talking really loud and borderline attacking me for no reason at all. She was kind of, well actually completely irrational and I had no idea where it was coming from. When she saw I was on the phone she actually got louder…lol..I was pretty stunned. I asked my buddy if I could call him back and I asked what was wrong. She was ranting and raving about an issue we had earlier this week. (what happened above). There were a few times where she threatened to stop dating me and leave and never talk to me again. Called me some interesting names. She was definitely trying to push my buttons. This is where it gets interesting. If I would have been my old self before I put any work into this, I probably would have started yelling back and defending myself and maybe even told her to leave. It was in this moment that I knew that I was a truely different person. Here’s why:

    Instead of getting mad, I felt honored. In my head I thought that she had to release some emotional stress and I was the only one that she felt safe doing it with. How could I be upset about that?

    Another difference even from the first night. This time I searched my feelings for when she was really venting and looking for empathy and when she was testing me i.e (“We will end this now if you want and i’ll leave! Do you want that?” I knew she did not want that.). When she would say stuff like this, I would look her dead in the eye and said with as much presence as I could “No” or variations of very short decisive statements. When she would bait me further I would just look at her. Everytime I did that she softened up. I was shocked at how it would instantly turned her mood around. It actually happened a few times when I felt she was baiting me. This might be TMI but the last time she challenged/tested me I got so turned on by this that instead of just saying “No” I actually picked her up and threw her on the bed. I haven’t seen her that riled up in a long time!

    Oh yea there were a few feeling messages in there. Mostly at the beginning though. ( I’m feeling confused about where this is all coming from).

    Maybe I wasn’t aware of it until now but I was pretty happy about the outcome. However, one thing perplexes me. David Deida talks about this a lot, but each time I handle her like this, she gets more and more irratic each time if shes feeling emotional/stressed. He says its because she is trusting me more and more each time it happens so she lets more out. On one end it is great practice for me but on the other end it makes me wonder if it is going to keep getting more intense. Any thoughts on this?

  42.  #42tinque on July 25, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    I don’t know what to tell you really Terrance. I tend to be far calmer than most females. It’s a rare time that I get riled up, and an even rarer time that I would do so in front of my man. It’s just so not worth it, and it’s so unproductive, and it’s just so not my personality. Baiting? Well I might every now and then, but it’s far subtler than this woman you speak of, and believe me my man knows when my inquiries are clean or when they are a baiting trap.
    You are responding to her outbursts brilliantly. couldn’t ask for anything more from you if it were I in this position. She on the other hand sounds, well psycho comes to mind, but I don’t want to hurt you in saying that.

  43.  #43Mercedes on July 25, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    Terance: I’m with Tinque on this one. I’ve been called “scary calm” when I’m pissed about something but if I did do that, I’m guessing mt bf would not have handled it quite so sweetly. Maybe you should direct her to this blog. Lol

    I’m not sure about the reasoning that she’s doing it more because she trusts you more. I would think that trust would inspire her to not blow up like that with someone she cares for. But…I could be wrong. I just never heard it justified that way before.

    Much Love,

  44.  #44Ann on July 25, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    Thomas I have to ask. Are you doing something to push her buttons? It sounds to me like she isn’t feeling “heard” by you.

  45.  #45Terrance Thames on July 25, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    Tinque- lol..I appreciate your candid-ness. It doesn’t hurt me. To be honest and fair, this is an extremely rare occurance over a rather long period of time. So this is not the norm. It usually happens if she drinks a lot. The first situation she did drink. The second time she didn’t.

    Mercedes- Yea maybe I should. 🙂

    Ann- As far as I know, I would say no but, who knows I could be wrong. Usually the next day she will always apologize and say if will never happen again and she needs to work on it and I didn’t do anything. I always assure her that it probably will happen and it is ok and to never apologize for her feelings. (She apologizes to me way too much)

  46.  #46Ann on July 25, 2009 at 8:19 pm

    Terrence I could be wrong. But I feel this sounds like she feels like she isn’t being heard about something. To me it also sounds like she stuffs her feelings down until she explodes. Because she cares about you alot and is fearful of losing you. Which is why she apologizes so much.

    I would suggest the next time she does this sober. That you make eye contact with her and ask her calmly and softly “What are you so angry about? It’s ok for you to tell me whatever it is. I’m sorry if I haven’t heard something you were trying to convey to me. What are you feeling?” Then just REALLY listen.

  47.  #47Robin on July 25, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    Tracy, Alias Girl, Tinque, thank you for your supportive words!! Im sinking into my feelings, and Im not feeling overly anxious or feeling that old subconscious desire to add the extra ‘drama’ to the situation..yay!!!

    Fernando, thank you for your insight, its so wonderful to have a man’s perspective. I feel a little confused and definitely interested in hearing more about the mindset that you cant screw up and acting from that place, please elaborate, I would love to hear more.

    I haven’t called him yet, and I felt really mad-crazy-busy today, like I was being pulled in a million directions, getting read for the concert, and I got a msg from him, as follows:

    ‘Def dr. its a 7 hour class, sooo tired
    Gosh I need a back rub
    I miss you so bad, want to take a nap in AC,
    your soft hair on my centaur body would feel heavenly’

    Oh wow, and I actually felt like melting, I kinda feel like calling, I miss him too, I havent replied yet, everytime I stop to reply, I feel at a loss for words….

    Oh boy, do I feel confused.

    On another note, I noticed at a coffee date, I was in the middle of a passion story and he interrupts me ans says hold that thought, so he can get up and put nutmeg in his coffee, which, ok thats cool, but I started to feel annoyed, and then instead of getting angry or hurt, I just automatically put him on a sort of ‘consideration probation’ , like ok, lets see if he’s considerate, if things like this happen more than once…

    No need to feel pissed or hurt, Yay thats never happened before, that was a great date!!!

  48.  #48Rori Raye on July 25, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    Terrance – Part of me wonders why such a clearly great guy as you would want a woman this “erratic.” and yet….it SO shows up that old thing about men not wanting us women to be “emotional” is a big fat lie. Emotion turned you on. When this no longer attracts you, and instead pushes you away, you’ll know that it’s actually more of a “defense” than an emotional sharing. And then you’ll tell her exactly what you “think” about the situation and work with her to process this stuff with you both in a conscious place. Fantastic man you are! Love, Rori

  49.  #49Katja on July 26, 2009 at 1:11 am

    Thanks to everyone for your words! I appreciate that very much.

    I feel angry at this other guy right now for not responding to my emails. In fact I feel angry at myself for calling him yesterday in the evening. He didn’t take the call. And I was only calling him because I drank some glasses of wine and felt so emotional (Terrence,maybe this is interesting for you,too). Everytime I drink some alcohol I feel like there is something emotional released inside of me that needs to come out. And I only feel like sharing that with very few people. (Btw don’t worry about me,I don’t drink that often.)

    I have to admit that I feel,too,that he is confused and maybe we are both trying to fill the gap, that occured after my boyfriends death, with each other. I felt safe with this other guy to show almost every emotion that came up. Now I feel embarrassed for showing him and telling him that much. And I feel insecure about whether or not its a good idea to stay in contact with him or to cut off contact. I do like him very much and it always felt really good to talk to him. Now it doesn’t feel good to even think about him.

  50.  #50Tracy on July 26, 2009 at 1:33 am

    I had this emotional outburst last year with a guy i felt and still feel deeply attracted to…..For my part that was because i felt safe enough to really show this dark side/stuffed feelings i was letting out…..
    However the anger and frustrations i had though directed to him were nothing to do with him…..It was my own fears and insecurities i had kept inside of me for such a long time that were starting to come out…..I am really glad it all happened because i really started questioning my love for me….and gladly enough i found this blog and so much advise that has really helped me grow and learn more about myself…..
    I feel glad that guyz like yourself are taking time to discover themselves and be more in control of their lives as eventually they help girls like us find their own true paths to happiness….

  51.  #51Terrance Thames on July 26, 2009 at 3:23 am

    Thanks ladies for all of the feedback! It was really helpful 🙂

    Ann-You are absolutely right about her bottling up feelings. She has admitted that to me before and assures me that she is working on it. I know that won’t be fixed overnight. Also, I will try that. I believe I have done that before though and she always will play it down and say that she wasn’t about me and she was being stupid.

    Rori- Because I know her personallity and I know what shes working on, I allow her to work on it with me. Additionally, to me that is a minor part of the big picture of what she offers me. Shes worth it.

    Katja-Yes that is an interesting perspective. You share a lot of feelings that Hill does. Embarrassment, and insecurity are emotions that come up quite a bit with Her. All I can do is constantly give her positive feedback whenever she does it and continue to be a safe place for her.

    Tracy- Thanks for that. You pretty much confirm what I have been thinking has been going on with her. That is why eventhough things are directed at me, I have the ability to not be defensive and actually feel honored that she is doing it with me. I hate that she apologizes so much though. I feel like she should know by now that its ok to let go with me. (we have dated on all levels for about almost 3 years now).

  52.  #52Simply Shannon on July 26, 2009 at 7:10 am

    My heart feels very heavy today. I need some advice please. I called my guy last night to say good night before going to bed. His phone picked up but he didn’t really answer and I could hear him and a female voice. Then the call ended. I gave it a minute or two, then I called back (yes – leaning forward I know). He answered and didn’t mention that anyone was there. I thought it was his daughter and said “yeah, I heard you and M (the daughter).” He didn’t say “no that’s not M.” So the next thing I hear is a woman in the background. It was his ex-girlfriend H. The woman I heard at first was his other neighbor S. His ex-girlfriend (H) lives across the street from him, and their kids are friends. He’s told me about her and how he is still friends with her because of their kids and the fact that they are neighbors. So last night, she started talking in the background. Said something about him being a liar and insinuating that he had called her at some point. (It was very clear to me that she still has feelings for him even though they broke up 8 month ago.) I felt sick to my stomach. And then I said “This doesn’t feel good. Call me tomorrow. I’ll let you go handle that.” Later I texted him that I was upset that H was at his house. And was feeling uncertain about going to his daughter’s party (which is today) because H might be there. I don’t want to be put in a weird spot and / or ruin M’s party with any drama that H might bring. He didn’t text me back last night. Then this morning I get a text saying “please come. Please don’t be upset.” Apparently last night H was drinking next door and just started in with him when she saw him outside.

    I talked to him this morning and stated how I was feeling (nervous, upset, just not good). I do trust him but I don’t feel good about this situation. And I feel my trust is being tested which doesn’t feel good at all. I told him I felt uncomfortable but that it was his business. He said he was sorry and that H wouldn’t be at the party today.

    So now I’ve said how I feel and he’s apologized profusely (since we talked this morning, he keeps sending me texts saying how sorry he is). I still feel crappy. My heart still feels heavy and clenched. I feel insecure and worried. Should I be worried about this? I’m going to M’s party this afternoon but now I feel all nervous (meeting his family and his ex-wife for the 1st time too – so lots of stuff going on today).

    My initial reaction is always to run away from bad feelings and to push the relationship away at the first sign of trouble. I’m trying to stop doing that but I don’t know where to go with what I’m feeling right now. Advice please. What now?

  53.  #53Simply Shannon on July 26, 2009 at 7:16 am

    Ok – crazy coincidence. I just checked my email and got Rori’s tool of the week…the Vampire Scream. I’m going to try that now.

  54.  #54Tracy on July 26, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Simply shannon,
    I feel that u handled the situation really well and by speaking out your feelings you managed to take care of yourself.I also feel that by not running away from the situation will help you understand more and process through your feelings…..
    From my experiences feelings of insecurity and fear are mainly caused by what we interpret the situation to mean and our own beliefs around it…i would dig deep into my feelings to discover why i feel so insecure and fearful…..Processing though my feelings and determining the cause enables me find a better understanding of the situation and find an appropriate solution that feels good for me…

  55.  #55Simply Shannon on July 26, 2009 at 9:41 am

    Thank you Tracy. I really appreciate the response. I think I know where my feelings of insecurity are based. My ex-husband did a few un-husband-like things (calling local singles hotlines and an escort agency). I don’t know if he actually slept with anyone but he was definitely taking steps. Cheating for me was/is a deal-breaker. And even as bad as things were between us, I never really thought he would cheat on me. I felt completely blindsided by it. Or rather I chose to ignore lots of things just because we were married and to me – my vows were sacred…even if I felt miserable in my marriage. It’s certainly put me in a tail-spin regarding relationships. I want to feel trust in my relationships and knowing his ex-girlfriend was there did nothing to inspire my trust. It’s his business to handle how he wants, but I wouldn’t feel right having an ex-boyfriend over to my house. At the very least asking her to leave when she started saying those things? I suppose that’s me projecting a “should” on to him, huh? Oh well. I sent him this message after he texted me again this morning saying he was so sorry and that he loved me:

    “I just don’t want to worry. I felt nervous and distrustful last night. It’s your business & I know you couldn’t stop her. I just don’t want that drama. I won’t compete. I do know you love me & i appreciate you saying it. i love you. you have my heart. i’ll see u this afternoon.”

  56.  #56Simply Shannon on July 26, 2009 at 9:43 am

    I feel bad for not commenting about Terrorance’s original post and going completely off-topic. Just had a problem and needed some help. I’ll get back on topic this evening after the party. 🙂 Thanks for giving me a safe place to vent when I need it. It helps so much to write out the words.

  57.  #57Simply Shannon on July 26, 2009 at 9:44 am

    LOL – Terrance – not “terrorance”.

  58.  #58Daria on July 26, 2009 at 10:58 am

    I’m trying to sink in past the anxiety I’ve been feeling and I found a sad feeling that no matter what I do its not going to be good enough.

    I feel sad.

    Now i just did a little vampire scream and i feel better, like i got to touch some of that feeling.

  59.  #59Rori Raye on July 26, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Go Terrance!!! I can’t tell you how much I want to support your turning other men into Terrance-like fellows.

  60.  #60Tina on July 26, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Walk like a Goddess, scream like a vampire Wow I did this “tool” and I feel deadly, in a good way of course. I heard my scream and the sound of my breath coming out was sounding very much like a wind tunnel. I felt alarmed that this sound was coming from me, I relaxed completely after every last ounce of breath was gone, I could do this all day. I envisioned by breath killling every last tree on the planet lol oops, thats how much I hate this feeling I was looking for in my soup. All the trees turned yellow. My breath feels like acid.

  61.  #61Tina on July 26, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    My feeling of hurt is what I was searching for in my soup, I didnt have to search long, the soup felt for me more like swirling non stop, round and round, I just had to pick one, skimming the top, this feels easy for me.

  62.  #62Tina on July 26, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Im just going to do this all day long. next feeling is ashame and guilt oh I’m wont run out of feelings , Im sure. I stood in front of my open kitchen window screaming ha!. I have a feeling now that ive killed the trees, the rocks are next 🙂

  63.  #63Tina on July 26, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    I found a burning,icky “make this stop feeling” coming out wow, I might have to do this a few times, my right side of my body feels heavy and strained, something is there, I feel it whatever it is.

  64.  #64Tina on July 26, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    unsafe, danger a feeling?, I did this a few times, I feel i had to, also I feel my body wanting to stretch after this, so I did. oh wow a different kind of scream , a scream not the less. I just love these “tools” I dont feel to do this in public lol . The icky burning make this stop feeling isjust loving my attention, oh i hate this feeling but ok a few more times and I really have to focus on my tomatoes lol I really dont like this feeling at all! I am not unaware of my issues around why I feel these. My soup of feelings feels is really effecting my right side of my body, effect or affect?. whatever

  65.  #65Tina on July 26, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Terrance i would feel to gaze at you for longer than five seconds, your approach is not important to me. Go help those guys, your doing a great job!

  66.  #66Terrance Thames on July 26, 2009 at 9:53 pm

    Rori and Tina-Thanks for the encouragement 🙂

  67.  #67Rori Raye on July 26, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    Hi all – I decided to leave this as a comment instead of a post for you who are regulars and know me…my husband, Jeffrey Levine is giving a teleclass on Tuesday at 6pm Pacific Time on how to have an online business, called E-Commerce Made Simple. I’ll be on the call answering questions (not about relationships, though). If you’re blogging, already have or want to develop an online business following my own model (and I do love to mentor those of you who’ve branched off from here in that way) — go here to find out more, and perhaps I’ll “see” you on the call. Love, Rori

  68.  #68Katja on July 27, 2009 at 1:00 am

    The vampire scream works great! I “screamed” all my anger about the guy I mentioned out and I feel much more relaxed and better now.

    Thank you for that tool!

  69.  #69Tracy on July 27, 2009 at 2:56 am

    wow,yesterday and today have really been challenging for me but i feel grateful to have this time to process through my dark feelings….I feel really sad and lonely and angry and i am really trying to process through all of it….
    I am really trying to stay out of my head and instead just feel the sadness inside of me…I feel so triggered and my anger feels stuck in my heart……i feel that it really wants to come out…all the frustrations and anxiety and anger…..i want to go deep down inside and face my anger and frustration ….i want to face my fears and disappointments….i want to face myself…i want to let it al out…..i feel much better writting it down..

  70.  #70Mercedes on July 27, 2009 at 6:50 am

    Terrance: I’ve been thinking about your post where you talk about your girl getting upset and how it’s getting more and more intense each time. I was wondering…is it possible she’s trying to get a bigger reaction out of you? Maybe she’s pushing your buttons more and more so she can see how far she can go before you stop being so sweet about it.

    I was just putting myself in her place and trying to figure out what would be going on with me at the time and thought I’d probably be wanting to see you get passionate (not sexually) about my behavior. I do know that if my boyfriend handled things the way you do, as sweet as it is, it would probably drive me nuts. Generally, when someone is crazy mad and doing things like calling names, throwing things, bringing up the past and such, it’s meant to get a rise out of the other person. She’s passionately angry and you’re calmly just looking at her, holding her and waiting for the storm to pass…maybe she wants to see a spark from you.

    The other thing that makes me think this might be true is her mention of her biological clock. She’s clearly thinking about marriage and children, so maybe she’s qualifying you to see how much patience you have and/or to see what kind of temperment her children might have.

    For some women, a kind and gentle (no matter what’s going on) man is what they want and need. For others of us, we need a man who loves us no matter what shit we’re throwing around, yet, at the same time, won’t sit back and take that shit without comment.

    Just a thought…what do you think?

    Much Love,

  71.  #71Nikita on July 27, 2009 at 7:52 am

    You dated her for 3 years? Is this going anywhere? I ask because for me at the 3 year point I feel frustrated and scared that he’s stringing me along or likes me enough for company but can’t commit to me for whatever reason. I feel like after 3yrs he knows what he wants from her. I’m trying to walk away from a man because I want marriage and I feel like since it’s not happening it’s time to disengage.
    Also, I would never show up unannounced and start ranting. Am I just not wild enough?? 🙂

    Thx Nikita

  72.  #72Nikita on July 27, 2009 at 8:01 am

    Vampire scream….mine felt like a coyote or wolf in pain. Very sad feeling. Lost animal like.

  73.  #73Aldonza on July 27, 2009 at 9:48 am

    @Terrance – is this the same woman you mention in your blog about breaking up with? Also, you mention meeting another woman at a bar and making plans to go out. I’m confused. Fascinated, but confused.

  74.  #74DocK on July 27, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Aldonza – Thank you thank you thank you!!!

    I was thinking, let’s see…if I a guy I was “with” for THREE years referred to me as “a girl I am dating” instead of “my GF” or “my fiance” and my biological clock was ticking…I guess I would have a lot of bottled up anger too!!

    I mean, wouldn’t Rori’s advice to me be…to circular date? Isn’t that the whole point (the one some of the guys were perplexed about?). That if I am with a guy for more than two years, and my clock is ticking and I want more and he hasn’t put an engagement ring on my finger yet or stepped up in ways I am looking for, than I am in the GF trap and I have no business being exclusive with anyone until I find someone that is ready for a commitment.

  75.  #75Terrance Thames on July 27, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Mercedes- My reaction to her getting angry (It has probably happened maybe 4 times this year) is based upon my feelings at the time. I reacted the way I reacted this time based on what I have recently learned from this blog and other places (David Deida…etc) I have also allowed myself to get into arguments as well just ignoring the problem knowing that she would calm down and we could talk rationally later. All of the situations seemed to resolve themselves about the same, but the last 2 times she got noticibly more intense. Also the change in her position/mood was very abrupt compared to previous times. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t take her shit when I feel like its really directed at me. I could be wrong in this approach but so far it has worked. Does that make sense?

    Oh and I never thought of the qualification part that you mentioned. Thats very interesting! Thanks

    Nikita-Yep I completely understand the 3 year mark frustration. I was there too. However, this situation is a little different because of a few things. I probably should have been more clear when I wrote dating for 3 years on all levels. That means off and on and varing levels of exclusivity. I have been friends with benefits, she has been my girlfriend, dating casually, etc… All for various reasons. So not all 3 years have been in an exclusive relationship. I do feel that it is going somewhere though.

    Also she didn’t show up unannounced. She knows not to do that. I knew she was coming over but I just didn’t hear her at the front door cause the door to my room was closed. I’m sure you are plenty wild enough 🙂 I hope this explains it a little further.

    Rori- Nikita touched on something that I think would make a good post.

    She said: I’m trying to walk away from a man because I want marriage and I feel like since it’s not happening it’s time to disengage.

    If a woman is wanting marriage and a man wants the woman but is not moving at the pace of the woman (assuming he is moving in that direction) towards marriage then when is it time to disengage without ultimatums?

    Aldonza- Thanks for reading my blog! The girl that I wrote about was a girl back in college. Not the same girl I am talking about here. Right now I am in an open relationship with the girl I mentioned here. We are not exclusive at this point. I hope I answered your question

  76.  #76DocK on July 27, 2009 at 11:12 am

    From what I have learned from Rori’s programs – if a woman is at a place in her life where she is not engaged in sex-ploration (I think Daria’s term), or dating for fun but is ready for that person to share her life with and wants marriage and children (or something of “commitment” that is right for her), it is time for the “no GF” speech which a guy might deem an “ultimatum” but is not what it is about.

    It is basically letting a guy know, ‘I get that you have feelings for me and I do for you but I am ready to take that next step, you are not. That’s OK. You can take all the time you need to figure out what you want, but I don’t feel comfortable closing off my options so I will continue to see you, be sexually exclusive with you, but I will date others as well’ and she has to mean what she says – this is not game playing or strategy. It is outlining for herself and him, what she wants and what she is ready for so she doesn’t spend years on someone that is only really keeping her around until he finds someone “better.”

    On the other hand, if a woman is with a guy she is in love with and he has REALLY back-pedaled, saying things like he loves her but is not “in love” with her, or wants to be friends, then she should break off with him completely because being friends with a man she is in love with just means continued heart-ache and she needs to move on.

    As I look at the photos of the women here, the ones that I am able to see, every single woman is gorgeous, beautiful, stunning and so on with incredible, juicy personalities attached to that physical beauty.

    I don’t think too many of the women here have any problems getting “hit on” by men. I think the women writing here have come to Rori and her programs for a variety of reasons. Some, wondering if they can take a current relationship to a level of deeper commitment. Others, how to relate to a guy who is approaching them that they are interested in or how to relate to a man once they have started dating. How not to replay old hurts by engaging with men in the old ways that may entice them initially, but put them off eventually.

    I think in most cases, what I have read over and over is that the women here are preparing themselves to be that woman that is one-half of the partnership in a relationship with someone that is exclusive, loving, passionate, playful – and emotionally healthy.

  77.  #77Mercedes on July 27, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Terrance: I applaud you for following your feelings. I don’t know if your approach is right or wrong and yes, it makes sense that you would try new ways of dealing with her. That being said, when a woman throws a dinner roll at you…her anger IS directed AT you so maybe a “I will NOT be treated that way.” is in order. LOL I’m just saying, if a man did that to me, I’d be a lot less nice about it than you are. Again, I applaud you for doing what you felt was right at the time.

    Now…you’ve raised another question in my mind. This is about curiosity rather than judgement, so please take it that way. I’ve heard your situation or a similar one about 3 or 4 times from men posting on this blog and emailing me. All of you are involved in the seduction community in some form, so maybe it’s something you’re taught there??? I’m wondering: You are dating this woman and you have an open relationship but you say you feel like it’s going somewhere. How does she know you’re feeling that way? I’m sure you’re honest and you’ve told her about your feelings, but…how does she KNOW? I mean…a guy can tell me all he wants that things are looking like they’re going to get serious between us, but if he also tells me: “However, I can’t see you this weekend because I have a date with another woman.”…then I don’t care how “open” we are or how “serious” he’s getting…I’m confused and I don’t believe his feelings for me are strong or even real.

    How do you do it? How do you convince a woman you care very deeply for her and you see things progressing but you are dating others? And…at what point then, does a man who has developing feelings close that open relationship and commit to her? I’ve heard a lot of men here not agree with circular dating (many have really trashed the concept) but…this sort of sounds like the male version of it only with the stipulation that as his and her feelings develop and things begin to move along, he’s still not willing to stop dating others and hitting on women.

    I think maybe it’s because my boundaries are strong but I wouldn’t take you seriously AT ALL if you were doing what you’re doing and telling me you think the relationship is going somewhere and I wouldn’t deal very well with a man who says that to me but then goes on a date with another.

    So…very curious about how this works…because I think your situation with her might be what’s causing her emotional outbursts to get out of control and more intense. That’s a lot of frustration: My biological clock is ticking. I want marriage and children. I’ve told this guy I’ve been on and off with for three years about this. He tells me he thinks our relationship is going somewhere. I have to find something else to do tomorrow because he has a date with another woman.

    I’m thinking I might throw the dinner roll too…

    Much Love,

  78.  #78Beth on July 27, 2009 at 11:27 am

    I met a guy in the hot tub at 24hr fitness. Really, he was reading a book titled “How to make friends and keep them” while sitting in the hot. Needless to say, everyone talked to him.

  79.  #79DocK on July 27, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Mercedes, I’m a body builder – don’t eat bread much so no roll – maybe a protein drink – wait, no the can would really hurt and I feel much more enlightened now than in my bad-ass Detroit days…OK – got it – a protein bar. I would feel happy to express my anger and pass on some healthy food all in one feel swoop.

  80.  #80DocK on July 27, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Oops – that’s “FELL” swoop. Rori’s “feel” has invaded even my frisky, fun shennanigan-speak.

  81.  #81Mercedes on July 27, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    DocK: Men laugh at me because I eat like a growing teenage boy and yet I’m so tiny. See…I don’t eat bread either which is why I wouldn’t mind giving it a good hard toss. If it were anything else on my plate…I couldn’t throw it…I’d have to eat it! 🙂

    Much Love,

  82.  #82Simply Shannon on July 27, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    All of you simply amaze me. Truly wonderful!

    I feel curious about Terrance’s suggested post topic. I’m in a new relationship so I’m not even contemplating the “no GF” speech. How do you know when it’s time though? I guess you would feel it in your gut? My guy is committed to me (and I to him), but we aren’t married. I want to be married. I’m not ready for it yet, but I could see marrying him someday. Both of us are divorced. I know he has a bit of a bias against marriage. He doesn’t think it makes a difference. In his mind, you can commit without marriage. I don’t agree, and I’ve been very honest with him about this. I’m not in a rush, but I’m not going to be someone’s girlfriend forever. (Please note: To each his/her own about marriage, this is about how I feel about it.) So how do you know when?

    Terrance: I’m with Mercedes about the biological clock ticking and her not knowing where she stands in your long term goals. Saying the words “biological clock” signals to me a desire to be committed and having babies. Maybe her escalation is a result of you not hearing her request for more. The question is – do you want more with this woman?

  83.  #83Nikita on July 27, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    I don’t give ultimatums. I am not his GF, I have been in the past.
    We have split before and he came back. So it has not been 3 continuous years. He just keeps coming back. I only accept exclusivity. I do date other people( I’m shopping). I don’t expect him to make me happy or give me what I want(marriage). I work on getting that for myself. By Dating. But because I do love him, I can feel that I am not as focused on finding a lifelong committment-meaning I’m comfortable with him so I date but I know that I’m giving to much energy to him. I told him when we split what I wanted and I respect that he doesn’t know if he wants marriage. Ok-goodbye. He came back to date me again, months later. I told him I can’t because he doesn’t want marriage and I do,so sorry. He kept insisting he does want to get married,he insists he knows he’ll never find anyone like me and feels like he fucked up(his words). So I agree to see him but explain I am still looking for that which he may or may not want with me(marriage).
    But now I feel very angry at him and it doesn’t feel good. He feels indecisive to me(big turn-off for me). I feel angry because after all this time he should know if I’m the forever woman. That’s my feeling. Maybe I’m being impatient, he has been good to me and I feel good with him-when I’m with him. But when we are apart and I see wedding rings I feel furious and scared he’s wasting my time because he’s indecisive. I feel angry at that because he is a very decisive man. I know he doesn’t want to hurt my feelings but keeping me around without a plan at this point hurts more and maybe I can do better,i.e. meet a man with a plan that already knows what he wants. Me.

    Great job explaining to Terrance why dinner rolls could be flying!
    I felt like, yeah.

  84.  #84Rori Raye on July 27, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Simply Shannon – the “no girlfriend” speech happens at the beginning – the first time he tries to nail you down “exclusively.” There should be no exclusive until marriage…you should be Circular Dating the whole time…Rori

  85.  #85Rori Raye on July 27, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Beth, Welcome, and cool….Rori

  86.  #86Mercedes on July 27, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    Nikita: Thanks…but I’m a little concerned I might have scared him off… :-/

    Much Love,

  87.  #87Nikita on July 27, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Miss M,
    No! Maybe he’s working. He’ll come back. He’s strong,and open to learning and teaching. You sounded compassionate to both parties to me.felt like you were interested in protecting everyones interests. I feel like he can totally handle an honest dialogue-he can take a dinner roll and still come back! I feel good he opened up, it inspired me to feel like opening up.

  88.  #88Terrance Thames on July 27, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    Mercedes- Lol I don’t scare that easily. I just had to get out of the way of that dinner roll you threw 🙂

    I think the best way to answer this is in quotes.

    You said: so maybe a “I will NOT be treated that way.” is in order. LOL

    I actually threw it back at her when she did it…She then proceeded to crumble it up and throw the pieces all over my bed…lol Brat!

    You said: All of you are involved in the seduction community in some form, so maybe it’s something you’re taught there???

    Well there are so many different things taught in the seduction community that are different from one another around this topic. I feel that the stuff that resonates with me is suprisingly close to what is being taught here. Some people teach tactics on manipulation or influence and some teach to be brutally honest. I clearly went the honesty road and that is what has lead me to this point.

    How does she know you’re feeling that way? I’m sure you’re honest and you’ve told her about your feelings, but…how does she KNOW?

    Good point and to be honest, I don’t know yet. Thats why I am on my path to figure it out, by any means neccessary.

    You said: How do you do it? How do you convince a woman you care very deeply for her and you see things progressing but you are dating others?

    I don’t believe that I convinced her to do anything. I have been honest in my intentions to figure out what I want and I DO NOT want to hold her back in anyway. If she feels that my pace is not fast enough for her or if she has a time limit or something, then I fully respect her decision to walk away. I have told her this before several times. She will still be one of my best friends and I will always care for her. I have to figure “ME” out before I can figure “US” out. And quite frankly I’m just not there yet.

    You said: And…at what point then, does a man who has developing feelings close that open relationship and commit to her?

    I can’t speak for all men but for me it seems I need to be sure that all of my needs are being completely met and continually be met. And if they are not yet met to have someone willing to work on them. When that happens, I will close it off and become exclusive. This will become clear why later.

    You said: but…this sort of sounds like the male version of it only with the stipulation that as his and her feelings develop and things begin to move along, he’s still not willing to stop dating others and hitting on women.

    I feel like we are in agreement here, partially. Maybe I might have answered this above but in my situation personally, our feelings are moving along slowly and we are slowly getting more and more of our needs met. I have total regard for respecting her wishes but my needs have to be met as well in order for me to stop dating.

    You said: I think maybe it’s because my boundaries are strong but I wouldn’t take you seriously AT ALL if you were doing what you’re doing and telling me you think the relationship is going somewhere and I wouldn’t deal very well with a man who says that to me but then goes on a date with another.

    Ah. Beautiful! This I feel is the most important part of this. Maybe if she had stronger boundaries, I would TAKE HER SERIOUSLY. This is a MASSIVE need of mine that is not currently met. She does not stick up for herself and it makes me pause when committing to her. I think “Am I going to have a strong woman or a pushover?” I have said this countless times to her and I have told her specifically that this is the only reason we are not exclusive. She NEEDS a backbone. Essentially, in the example given above, the more dinner rolls get thrown at me the more im attracted to her…lol. Sounds weird but true for me. As I begin to trust that she will continually stand up for herself and challenge me, I will stop dating other women (she is probably reading this so now she even has it in writing :-)) I feel like this is something that she needs to invest in me first before I commit. As Erica would put it a “Non-negotiable”

    So I hope this answers your questions and like I told you before I love your views. Keep em coming….this one is long so I will break this up to address everyone else 🙂

  89.  #89Fernando on July 27, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    There’s so many maybes! I feel like she’s got self esteem issues that she needs to get over before she becomes marriage material. I mean, I feel like a lot of people get married just to get married, or because they feel like more commitment will fix their problems. Obviously, this doesn’t work very well, so I’m going to say, “Go you,” for making sure you aren’t rushing into anything without making sure that it’s going to be good for both of you.

    I’m quick to give judgement sometimes, and I don’t know all the details, but I feel like not committing right now is a good idea.

  90.  #90Terrance Thames on July 27, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Dock-OK – got it – a protein bar. I would feel happy to express my anger and pass on some healthy food all in one feel swoop.

    Where have you been all my life!! 🙂

    S. Shannon- Thanks for your imput

    “Maybe her escalation is a result of you not hearing her request for more. The question is – do you want more with this woman?”

    My answer is: If she can stand up to me yes I do.

    She has gotten better at it which has made me continue to invest in her, but it is far from consistent. I have given her extreme positive re-enforcement everytime she does do it as well and I verbally point it out. I also point it out when she doesn’t as well.

    Nikita-Thanks for your confidence! 🙂 I really appreciate it!

    If I were in that situation with you and you told me that you wanted to to split because I didn’t want marriage I would completely respect that. I wouldn’t go back to the relationship unless I knew that I wanted marriage with you. If I didn’t come back it would be because of some need that was not being met, AND I didn’t have confidence that you would grow in that direction that would meet my needs.

    You said: Maybe I’m being impatient, he has been good to me and I feel good with him-when I’m with him.

    I don’t know if you are being impatient or not But you are going at your pace and thats the important part.

    But when we are apart and I see wedding rings I feel furious and scared he’s wasting my time because he’s indecisive. I feel angry at that because he is a very decisive man. I know he doesn’t want to hurt my feelings but keeping me around without a plan at this point hurts more and maybe I can do better,i.e. meet a man with a plan that already knows what he wants. Me.

    I feel like if he is a decisive man (like me) and indecisive in a situation like this, then there might be something going on that he has not told you about, like something that he is looking for but isn’t getting. I can’t speculate as to what, but I feel if he is a decisive person and he’s not making a decision then he hasn’t got some questions answered. Just my impression.

    Fernando- Thanks for that. Very perceptive input!

  91.  #91Nikita on July 27, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Hi Terrance,

    I feel so justified about my confidence in you. I think this guy is scared of getting hurt/being vulerable to a woman. Now if I had a feeling………um, I feel like he’d marry me in two or three years.
    I feel like it’s a financial stability issue on his part as well. He makes a good living but doesn’t feel as stable as he wants. But I feel like it’s really about his mom. It’s not good. At all. I can’t alter that. I don’t want to try. He’s afraid of divorce and the destruction it can entail. But, speculation doesn’t feel good to me. I feel sorry for him; and that is not sexy-
    Maybe it’s not meant to be

  92.  #92Tracy on July 28, 2009 at 2:18 am

    I totally loved your comment….made me feel like a goddess.Thank you…

  93.  #93Tracy on July 28, 2009 at 4:18 am

    I feel glad to know that men are really attracted to women with strong boundaries..It explains a lot of what has been going on with my relationships.
    Your comment makes a lot of sense and i also feel inspired to improve myself and be stronger on the inside….Before this blog,boundaries is not something i was really keen on and i realize now that its a process and it is somehow linked to my self esteem which i had issues with….
    Having a guy explain it so clearly makes even more sense and justify all that Rori has been explaining in her posts for a while now…
    I feel that i am in a phase in my life where in the future i hope to be in a committed and fulfilling relationship but for now,i am still learning who i am and what i really want….so for me its more of experimenting and finding out what works for me and what doesn’t……
    I feel i do need to strengthen my boundaries,love myself more….define what makes me happy and be confident about myself……
    so i do agree with the dating and being sure that u get only what u really feel works for you…..

  94.  #94DocK on July 28, 2009 at 5:50 am

    Not sure what post/thread this should go in but just chuckling to myself…

    Yet another ex contacted me – this one through Facebook (FB). they just never seem to go away. I mean, he is harmless enough and pops up every now and then wherever I am living but I just don’t get it. It’s not like they get anything out of me in the process ; )

    I was/am MUCH too good to my men!

  95.  #95Mercedes on July 28, 2009 at 7:57 am

    Nikita and Terrance: LOL I was just kidding about the “scaring off” part….but I thought it might present a challenge just in case… 🙂

    And Terrance…your response to me was VERY good. If you are being as honest with her (and I mean just as honest and open and authentic) as you were with your response to me, then I agree, she has all of the information she needs to make a decision about her life. Maybe it’s the “backbone” thing, but I respect myself enough to say “see ya” to a man who won’t give up other women for me. I agree, the way she is now and what you want do not mesh…so don’t commit to her or you’ll regret it.

    But…I wish for her, the self-respect she needs to say “I’m at a different place in my life than you are. I’ve enjoyed our relationship very much, but between that whole ‘biological clock’ thing of mine and you wanting me to change who I am by getting a ‘backbone’…well…I know this isn’t the right place for me. I’ll miss you but I’m off to give all of my energy to a man who can love me just the way I am and who doesn’t bring out the roll-throwing-psycho in me.” Then…go forward to find, focus on and grab ahold of the life she wants with the man of her dreams…

    Much Love,

  96.  #96DocK on July 28, 2009 at 9:59 am

    Very well stated Mercedes.

    I feel what is so difficult for women is to walk away from someone when you have feelings for him because you have to face the fact that you are in different places or want different things.

    I had a flip of the above – I had to walk away from someone I had been with for 8 years because HE wanted marriage and family. It wasn’t fair to him to keep stringing him along and it was so tough to break it off but I had to do it.

    More recently, I had to give a “speech” to a LI and express my own boundaries. I, like you, don’t want a wedding ring right now (ever?) but that doesn’t mean I don’t want something deep and real so I said,

    I don’t feel comfortable initiating contact (I had felt like he was leaning back) so I won’t be sending you an email, calling, or texting unless it is in response to one from you right now. It feels like chasing and pursuing and I won’t do that. I feel frustrated too because I enjoy shared moments and I am feeling a lack of this. I want to experience more out in the world. I need to feel claimed and I will have this in my life with the person that wants me this way and is ready for it.

    (written in a different post as well) He said something about how I was waiting for Prince Charming and I explained that Prince Charming was a fantasy and I was talking about real.

    We didn’t speak for 2 weeks and he contacted me via email (“god I miss you”) and I didn’t respond. He waited for me outside my office but had my departure time wrong so missed me. He called. We finally spoke and got together to talk.

    Since then he has initiated all contact and made no complaints about it. He sent me flowers when I returned from out of town. He’s asked ahead of time to get together and we have had a lot of fun. He stopped by before he had to go to his second job just to kiss me because he said “I respect you too much for a ‘drive by f$%k’ (my expression).”

    At this point in our relationship – this is all I am looking for right now. I want us to take our time and enjoy each other but I don’t want to row that doggone boat and I am not going to. He knows that I enjoy him but he also knows I can live without him. If he hadn’t contacted me, we wouldn’t be talking right now.

    I still do circular dating as it works for me.

    I think that it feels hard to follow the Rori advice – like it goes against what we THINK is right and get so scared and wrapped up in ONE person when there are almost 7 billion people in this world.

    I am not cold. I have strong feelings for this guy but I also have strong feelings for myself and I deserve the best and that is what I will have.

  97.  #97Simply Shannon on July 28, 2009 at 10:40 am

    Mercedes: I agree with Dock. Very well said.

    Terrance: I understand what you’re saying and you have every right to want what you want and wait until you find it. I would feel bad if I knew my man didn’t want me for who I am today, right now. No one is perfect. I’m always going to be a work in progress. I feel icky (too strong but I can’t think of another word) reading that she has to “fix” what is wrong before you’d take her. It’s one of those moments when I’d want to say “If you’re not careful, you’re going to lose me forever” and just walk away into the sunset. You leaving the door open for her to walk out speaks volumes to me. I feel admiration that you want to help her grow stronger but for me personally, I don’t want a student/teacher relationship. I want a lover and a friend who loves me…weaknesses and all. I hope that doesn’t come off too harshly. I feel apprecitation for the things you have shared here, and I’m looking forward to hearing what you think.

    Dock: “I think that it feels hard to follow the Rori advice – like it goes against what we THINK is right and get so scared and wrapped up in ONE person when there are almost 7 billion people in this world.” This is definitely where I get stuck. I feel okay with circular dating in general but have a harder time with it once I’ve begun really liking someone and then falling in love with him (and sleeping with him). Is this just a matter of changing what circular dating means to me? I don’t go on dates with anyone else but I’m aware of other men and haven’t closed off myself. I wouldn’t want a ring right away, so how long does the circular dating thing last in reality? I’ve been exclusive with my guy now for three months. I would feel surprised and nervous if he gave me a ring today. Not because I don’t want one but it just feels too soon. I know he wants the long term with me. And even though he’s made comments about his bias against marriage, I know he would/will marry me. He knows how I feel about it. He just needs time and so do I quite frankly. I feel confused by the circular dating thing in practice when you are dating someone you love. Any ideas about what I’m misunderstanding?

  98.  #98Mercedes on July 28, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Thanks ladies.

    Terrance, I want to explain how I see this (now that we’ve gotten more information from you) from a woman’s (my) point of view. You see, I think the real problem is that she’s trying too hard to be what you want. You want a woman who will stand up for herself and you’ve told her that. She’s desperately trying to be that woman but since it isn’t natural for her, it’s coming out in instant rages (where she would normally be calm) and over the top anger and then she bursts into tears because she doesn’t know what she’s doing, she just knows she’s trying to do it. She’s not being authentic and these outbursts will continue to get more and more intense until you say “YES!…that’s the kind of woman I want!” and…before you know what hit you (and after you commit to her), the REAL her will come back and you’ll be left wondering what happened to that backbone you helped her achieve.

    I guess what I’m really saying is “Nobody can change for someone else. We can try, but we can’t change unless we decide (on our own) that we need to make improvements. Be very careful about asking someone to be different than they are. You are much better off finding the right woman for you than you are keeping one on a stringer just because she shows potential.”

    Make sense or do I ramble? (lol…sometimes I can’t tell..heehee)

    Much Love,

  99.  #99Dan_Brodribb on July 28, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Mercedes, I really like this question.

    “I’m wondering: You are dating this woman and you have an open relationship but you say you feel like it’s going somewhere. How does she know you’re feeling that way? …a guy can tell me all he wants that things are looking like they’re going to get serious between us, but if he also tells me: “However, I can’t see you this weekend because I have a date with another woman.”…then I don’t care how “open” we are or how “serious” he’s getting…I don’t believe his feelings for me are strong or even real.

    How do you do it? How do you convince a woman you care very deeply for her and you see things progressing but you are dating others? And…at what point then, does a man who has developing feelings close that open relationship and commit to her?”

    I don’t think it’s a matter of convincing the woman (or man, for that matter–I’ve been on both sides of this situation). It’s a matter of people being ready to have a monogamous relationship (or the other person be ready to deal/participate in an open-relationship…which is a different beast entirely)

    I find my biggest problems don’t come from what I say to other people, but what I tell myself. I find it very easy to tell myself lies when they’re things I want to believe.

    It comes up when a relationship is unsatisfying but convenient, or I don’t want to rock the boat, or I don’t want to be the bad guy or I think things will get better…she’ll change or I’ll change or something will change.

    Or it comes up when I’m afraid that this person IS right for me, but I’m afraid so it’s probably better I keep seeing other women even if I don’t want to because otherwise we’ll just up in a committed relationship, but I’m a crappy boyfriend and I’ll end up cheating on her or she’ll dump me and when she does, I will be too old/rusty/bald to find another and I’ll live out the rest of my days broken and alone.

    I also feel a distinction between being ready and being sure. ‘Ready’ is about being in a position where I WANT a monogamous relationship. Sure is…well, actually Terrence put it quite well:

    “I can’t speak for all men but for me it seems I need to be sure that all of my needs are being completely met and continually be met. And if they are not yet met to have someone willing to work on them. When that happens, I will close it off and become exclusive.”

    I have found though, that many of us are NEVER 100% sure. There is always a reason to put it off. What if I can’t do it? What if she isn’t the right person? What if someone better comes along? What if I lose my ability to be attractive to the opposite sex?

    At some point–sure or not–the only way for me to find out if someone is the right person for a committed relationship is by rolling the dice and committing. It seems to make sense logically to keep one foot out the door until you’re absolutely, totally, completely sure but doing it that way has never really worked for me or anyone I know. Instead it feels like we’re just going in circles.

    I’ve found the best way to find out if I’m ready for something is to do it. And in such cases, I find out right quick.

  100.  #100DocK on July 28, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Simply Shannon:

    Circular dating is what you need it to be to keep yourself “open.” I am not great with real dates, like you say, but I am great at flirting. I can chat up guys at a restaurant or bar or wherever. I flirt with men on elevators, or guys holding the door open for me, train conductors…it’s about keeping the vibe open.

    I feel, however, (and everyone might not agree with me, that’s OK) that there is harmless flirting and then there is flirting that crosses a line when you (or him) are in a relationship with commitment.

  101.  #101Mercedes on July 28, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Hey there db! I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I think my question was misunderstood by both you and Terrance. I’m not asking how you convince her to be with you or to be in an open relationship or to not be upset when you date other women. I’m asking how you convince her your feelings are real. Maybe “convince” isn’t the right word…how do you show her/tell her and ensure she knows you’re being authentic when you say you feel like the relationship is going somewhere and yet you have a date with another woman later. I’m not talking about convincing her to DO anything…I’m talking about convincing her to BELIEVE you…to BELIEVE IN you…and to BELIEVE IN the future of your relationship.

    That aside, I agree…the only way to be sure is to do it. I’m not saying get married just to try it out (I think that might be what I did…and you can ask my ex-husband…it was NOT a good idea!), but I do believe a man (or woman) will never know they are ready until they devote their energy to this one person. I know that goes against the black and white version of circular dating, but I think…if there could be a gray area where two people “date themselves” by giving the other some space and having fun outside of the relationship while at the same time, devoting all romantic energy to one person…they’re going to find out much more quickly whether or not things should progress or end.

    Much Love,

  102.  #102Simply Shannon on July 28, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Mercedes: Spot on again. Thank you.

    Terrance: I hope you don’t feel like we’re ganging up on you about your relationship. I know I’m being triggered by it (the whole “you’re not enough” thing). I’m feeling more confident in my boundaries about walking away if he’s dating others. Reading your perspective, I can see how it’s not malicious on his part. It’s simply “all my needs aren’t being met”. I can either try to change some of my behaviours to meet those needs or I can say as Dock as eloquently put it “[I love you] but I also have strong feelings for myself and I deserve the best and that is what I will have.”

    Dan: I feel so encouraged by what you said. Love is risky. I’ve held back way too much because I was scared of getting hurt or waiting until I was “sure”. The irony is that I feel much more vulnerable on a daily basis now than I ever have but I also feel more confident in my ability to keep on my path regardless of what comes my way.

  103.  #103Rori Raye on July 28, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    This is such an interesting thread. Terrance, Here’s my take. Until a man has decided he wants a woman. Not her “potential” – but her…he should be Circular Dating just like you should, if you’re the woman he’s “dating.” From here, I can’t help Terrance’s “woman,” but I can tell you that “standing up” to a man takes a bit of practice, and it might work for you, Terrance, but I believe the whole thing is an “energy” issue. Just like pheromones can’t be faked, learned, taught, bought, borrowed, evolved…neither can a person’s “energy.” A person’s “vibe” can change…and that’s what I could help this woman with…but her intrinsic “energy patterns” — I would even say her personality profile and enneagram status — would not change. She would become healthier, but she may STILL not be the match for you.

    That said – the fact that you are THERE with her tells me that you are attracted to her “energy” – but that her “vibe” is off. AND that you have some kind of subconscious push-pull with her. (To me – this is the basis of polyamory – for good or bad. It’s like splitting the trauma reactions around so you never have to face the deepest stuff…you can just keep moving around.)

    I’m very interested to see what happens for you with this woman — and if I could help her from here, I would…Love, Rori

  104.  #104Simply Shannon on July 28, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Dock: I feel the same. Thank you. I don’t know why I’m having such a hard time with the circular dating thing. There’s something there, right? 🙂

  105.  #105Aldonza on July 28, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    @Terrance – Just curious as to what your reaction would be if she gave you the “no girlfriend” speech. The way Rori explains it, circular dating is for us and if we want a commitment, we should not date a man who is dating other women.

  106.  #106Mercedes on July 28, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Rori: I’m confused by this and really want to fully understand your teachings so I’ll ask…

    “Until a man has decided he wants a woman. Not her “potential” – but her…he should be Circular Dating just like you should, if you’re the woman he’s “dating.” ”

    I thought we were supposed to dump those guys that are dating other women while we’re circular dating. So…if the men circular date too…how do we all connect up in the end?

    Much Love,

  107.  #107Mercedes on July 28, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Shannon: “Is this just a matter of changing what circular dating means to me? I don’t go on dates with anyone else but I’m aware of other men and haven’t closed off myself.”

    To me, this is the circular dating gray area. You are going to be fine if things don’t work out with your guy and you know it…that’s really the key. I don’t think it needs to be actual “dates”, but I do think we just need to be open to the possibility that a man will come along who is on our time line before our current LI is…and that man could sweep us off our feet. It sounds to me like you’re in no hurry and enjoying the moment, so…as long as you and your guy progress at the same or a similar pace, all will be good. I think it’s more important to actually date (as in dinners and such) if we KNOW we want marriage and we KNOW we want it soon…and we KNOW we haven’t found a man who feels the same way.

    Much Love,

  108.  #108Dan_Brodribb on July 28, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Mercedes wrote: “I think my question was misunderstood by both you and Terrance. I’m not asking how you convince her to be with you or to be in an open relationship or to not be upset when you date other women. I’m asking how you convince her your feelings are real. Maybe “convince” isn’t the right word…how do you show her/tell her and ensure she knows you’re being authentic when you say you feel like the relationship is going somewhere and yet you have a date with another woman later. I’m not talking about convincing her to DO anything…I’m talking about convincing her to BELIEVE you…to BELIEVE IN you…and to BELIEVE IN the future of your relationship.”

    Oh. In that case, I’d like to change my answer to “I have no idea.”

    Then again, I’m not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I try and express myself as honestly as I’m able and hope for the best.

    Everything else is pretty much out of my hands.

  109.  #109Mercedes on July 28, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    db: Oh. In that case, I’d like to change my answer to “I have no idea.”

    Thanks for your honesty! That’s pretty much what I thought…LOL (just kidding).

    I think my point is really about expressing yourself…honestly and without any mixed signals. I guess I’m just cautioning the men here (and women too if they’re in a similar situation) to be very careful that their actions and their words are matching. If your actions are dating lots of women and your words are “I think our relationship is going somewhere”…well…I know I’d be confused. That being said, your actions would trump your words and every time you said “I think our relationship is going somewhere.”, it would translate in my head to “blah blah blah blah…”

    Much Love,

  110.  #110Simply Shannon on July 28, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Mercedes: Blah, blah, blah. Yep. Before I would have taken that scrap and run with it. “Oh he loves me. He wants to marry me someday. I’m fine with him dating others as long as I believe one day he’ll want just me.” Eck, eck, eck. Yep – I feel triggered. Grrr. I feel very angry right now. Wow. I just realized the source – an ex boyfriend who keeps coming back in my life (as recent as two days ago). It was always something with him. Blah, blah, blah. Funny thing is that a year ago I felt unworthy of him. Not anymore.

    And thank you for the “gray” explanation on circular dating! I feel comfortable with where things are right now. There are still parts of me that feel worried I’m going to mess this up or that some step along the way will jinx the whole thing. I’m trying to feel more relaxed and go with the flow about it. There’s no pressure here and I feel happy. Maybe one day I’ll start to feel anxious about him and us but right now I feel good about where things stand.

  111.  #111Terrance Thames on July 28, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Thanks Ladies and gentlemen for giving me several different perspectives. I can appreciate them all 🙂

    I presume this will probably be a long comment to answer everyone so bare with me.

    Tracy- Thanks for feeling my viewpoint on this.

    You said: feel that i am in a phase in my life where in the future i hope to be in a committed and fulfilling relationship but for now,i am still learning who i am and what i really want….so for me its more of experimenting and finding out what works for me and what doesn’t……

    I believe we are in similar situations right now. I feel I am still developing into my “best self” as well.

    Mercedes-Thanks for giving this so much of your attention as I truly value everything you write. This a very refreshing perspective that I fully understand. A couple of things I want to address

    “how do you show her/tell her and ensure she knows you’re being authentic when you say you feel like the relationship is going somewhere and yet you have a date with another woman later?”

    I would have to say that in my situation the way I would show her is by spending more and more time with her. Basically trust her more with everything in my life. and involve her more. i.e Vacations, keys to the apt, etc..

    “I thought we were supposed to dump those guys that are dating other women while we’re circular dating. So…if the men circular date too…how do we all connect up in the end?”

    This is a phenominal question! I was going to ask it for myself too.

    I one side I think that dumping us male circular daters would rule out a lot of great partners as a lot of us are strong confident and decisive and genuine. We just haven’t found “the one who makes us forget about the rest” yet. I feel like it almost leaves you with a pool of guys who the majority (not all) either look for the lottery ticket approach to finding a potential mate (one at a time) or the shy guy who doesn’t approach as easily.

    One the other side it seems like it would eliminate a lot of player guys who anyone want to get laid and leave.

    Either way I see it as interesting as to which side allows you the better oppotunity for happiness.

    S. Shannon- Nope. i don’t feel ganged up on at all. I’m honored by it. I knew that what I said was probably cause some controversy but it was not my intent to trigger anyone.

    “It’s one of those moments when I’d want to say “If you’re not careful, you’re going to lose me forever” and just walk away into the sunset. You leaving the door open for her to walk out speaks volumes to me.”

    The reason I am able to leave the door open is because I believe that there are a lot of people that can be my match. Not just one. I also believe that if you love someone you can let them go and if they love you and it is meant to be then they will come back to you when they/you are ready. Thats about the only thing fairy tail-ish I still believe in. (probably get mixed results on this one) She would get all the respect in the world from me if she decided to walk away.

    “I feel admiration that you want to help her grow stronger but for me personally, I don’t want a student/teacher relationship.”

    Every one of my relationships in the past and present have help define me into who I am now. I personally would love to be in that type of relationship because for me, thats where my growth has taken place. I wouldn’t change that for the world and I would hope that it would be that way for the rest of my life.

    Rori- Thanks for that.

    “That said – the fact that you are THERE with her tells me that you are attracted to her “energy” – but that her “vibe” is off. AND that you have some kind of subconscious push-pull with her”

    I agree 100% with this. I feel the vibe thing is what I have describe above. Maybe I expressed it into a personality trait but thats what it comes down to. The vibe that she is willing to walk away if she needs to for her and not for me. When I tell her that she tells me that she is able and willing to, but I know otherwise.

    And: “She would become healthier, but she may STILL not be the match for you.”

    Yes I agree with this too. Isn’t the only way to know this is by waiting (until shes healthier) with to see how much we grow together?

    Aldonza- Well my understanding of the No GF speech is basically telling the guy that you are looking for marriage and you are going to continue to date until you find someone to be engage to..Is that correct? If I am wrong please set me straight 🙂

    If so then my response would be for her to date other guys. i am actually a big believer in dating other people to in whatever capacity that is to each person. I feel you learn way faster about yourself and your wants and desires than just dating one person at a time. For me personally, I have encouraged her to check out the competition. I am confident enough to feel like it would only make me look better to her. And if she finds another guy that make her happier than I can, then I can reflect on that and grow from it and she is better off anyways. A win-win in my opinion.

    The way Rori explains it, circular dating is for us and if we want a commitment, we should not date a man who is dating other women.

    I think I have expressed my curiosity in this earlier. I think its interesting because I advise guys to do this as well, except I don’t really mind if a woman is dating others. In my experience, I have not seen dating women that are not dating other men any less or more willing to commit that if they were dating them, They seem only more educated in what they want out of me (depending on a lot of variables). If you become the woman that makes me forget about the rest then I will no question commit to you with everything I have to offer. I don’t feel that is any different in this concept of circular dating.

    Again I feel very privledged to be getting this much feedback. I amd learning a ton here! I love this feminine energy!

    There are a lot of questions in my comment but I have come up with another one:

    At what point does believing in growth and development of a person take a back seat to cutting the relationship because what is right here and right now?
    I am not talking about trying to change anyone. As Rori put it “vibe” factor

    Where do you draw the line?

  112.  #112Rori Raye on July 28, 2009 at 10:18 pm

    Going to jump off into a post on this one, Terrance…Rori

  113.  #113Karen on July 28, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    Just a suggestion; maybe you should buy Rori’s book and give it to the woman you have been off/on with for 3 years. Even if the two of you end up breaking up, it would probably help her find “herself” under all the layers of trying to be what whichever man she is with at the time wants her to be.

  114.  #114Mercedes on July 29, 2009 at 6:30 am

    Hey Terrance: I gave it my attention because it really triggered me into trying to get inside her head and see what might be going on…I am fascinated by this so I thank you for that. Psychology is a passion of mine and I do a lot of work with young women (who have been abused) and teenage girls (some who have been abused and some not) so going “inside the mind of a woman” when she’s acting/reacting in ways that don’t seem common or “normal” (for lack of a better word) is sort of what I spend my free time doing. Anyway…thanks for the topic…it really got me thinking and “trying out” different thought processes for where she might be coming from.

    I think my problem with the whole concept of “how do you show her” (or convince her – man I regret that word) is because I can’t grasp the concept of a true open relationship or, even more than that, an open lifestyle. I know in my head there are a lot of people in this world (men and women alike) who have multiple sexual partners and nobody is wanting more and no feelings are being hurt and everyone is happy moving from one partner to the next and back again but…there’s a big difference between knowing that in my head and feeling it in my heart. This is something I would like to be able to grasp, but I’m not sure I will…I’m so incredibly in love with my guy that I can’t imagine being with another man or hearing about (seeing??) him be with another woman. So…until I can fully grasp the concept and understand that REALLY, both parties are okay with it and nobody has emotions and feelings that aren’t ready for it, I’ll probably struggle with the concept. I know it will never be for me, but I would like to develop some empathy for those who do choose to live their lives this way. I hope that happens for me.

    Much Love,

  115.  #115Simply Shannon on July 29, 2009 at 7:45 am

    Mercedes: “I can’t grasp the concept of a true open relationship or, even more than that, an open lifestyle.” I feel confused too.

    Terrance: These posts have actually helped me a lot. I feel more resolved about my desire to have a long term relationship. Rori’s concept about the man not being able to date others even though I’m circular dating makes complete sense to me now. In the past, I would have felt mad at a man for stringing along a woman when he knows she isn’t “the one who makes us forget all others”. What I’m learning from your posts is that the man isn’t being malicious. He’s simply waiting to see if things change with the one he has and keeping himself open to someone else who might be “the one”. I don’t have to like it but it is what it is. This is about the woman (ME) having the confidence to say “no, I don’t want that, and I’m okay walking away from you to have what I want and deserve”. I can see alot of myself in the woman you are describing so it touches home with me.

    As to the teacher/student comment – when I was reading your post about giving her positive reinforcement, I read it with a condescending, patronizing tone (self inserted – not something you intended – just the way my brain read it). Of course we learn from one another and grow together. I completely agree with you. However, I want to be accepted for who I am today. That’s the person you love today…not the potential me tomorrow. Again, for me, this triggers the “I’m not enough” feeling or the thoughts that “if only I did X, he would love me”. That is not a feeling I enjoy having. I hope Rori’s new post will address your questions. I feel interested in that as well.

  116.  #116Terrance Thames on July 29, 2009 at 8:45 am

    S. Shannon-
    “In the past, I would have felt mad at a man for stringing along a woman when he knows she isn’t “the one who makes us forget all others”. What I’m learning from your posts is that the man isn’t being malicious. He’s simply waiting to see if things change with the one he has and keeping himself open to someone else who might be “the one”.”


    I feel heard here! This is why I felt that guys can circular date non-maliciously and accomplish the same thing as women can.

    “I read it with a condescending, patronizing tone (self inserted – not something you intended – just the way my brain read it). Of course we learn from one another and grow together. I completely agree with you.”

    Yea I just started the writing thing about a month ago so I’m still learning which words to choose so I’m not triggering people. Thats why I started posting comments at the school of hard knocks for Men “Siren Island” 🙂

    Shannon-I wanted to tell you that I hold you at very esteem on here, just ask Mercedes. I love hearing what you have to say. 🙂

  117.  #117Mercedes on July 29, 2009 at 9:13 am

    Shannon: I love your last comment. It is a lot how I feel too…so many possible negative reactions to someone when they feel like they are a “work in progress” in someone else’s eyes.

    The way I see it, I want a man to love me EXACTLY the way I am RIGHT NOW. If I need to change (because I’VE decided I need that to happen), I want my man to take me by the hand and walk with me through that journey of change. If he decides he needs to change as well, I will do the same for him. I want a man who will challenge me to be the best I can be but not one who will hold back because I’m not there yet. I want a man who wants what he sees and feels where I’m concerned. I want a man to totally walk away if I’m not enough so I feel free to find a man who is right for me. I want a man to respect me enough to do just that. I want him to leave knowing that he was just with an amazing woman who is going to make some other man (a man she fits perfectly with) very happy. I want him to be happy to have known me but wise enough to know we weren’t (at that stage in our lives) right for each other. I don’t want a man waiting for me to improve but I do want a man who celebrates with me when I do.

    And yes…Terrance did give you a very big compliment in an email to me (just in case you didn’t already believe him…lol)

    Much Love,

  118.  #118Rori Raye on July 29, 2009 at 9:20 am

    In my travels and research, I’ve known and met people in all kinds of relationship styles, including “swingers,” a woman living with two men successfully for a very long time until one man finally prevailed and the other man left, hurt, and fabulous, polyamorous women who are able to maintain ongoing, deep, emotional, connected relationships with several people at the same time — even while primarily committed to one. Sounds impossible for me, and perhaps you — it’s like an “alternate reality.” At the top of my ‘Values” list (the one I give all my clients and that’s in Reconnect Your Relationship) is “security.” That’s just me. It’s like my survival issues have to be in place before I can let go and have fun. This is something I work with and process through all the time — because you just can’t always feel secure. Life isn’t like that.

    There is so much to learn from people whose needs and values lists are different from our own. It is incredibly helpful to imagine what it would be like to live as though “experience” and “pleasure” and “connection” and “adventure” and “fun” were at the top of your lists. Love, Rori

  119.  #119Mercedes on July 29, 2009 at 9:28 am

    Rori: I agree so much! It would never work for me (this is something I truly know in my heart and soul) but my brain is aware that it really does exist and I’m trying to get my heart and my feelings to believe it as well.

    That’s why I sought out Terrance…he’s helping me understand better…as far as being able to truly FEEL it exists, well…that’s up to me to do on my own, but I really do appreciate his willingness to spend time on this with me, answer my questions, not try to “convince” me of anything and just give me the facts (honestly and as he sees them) as well as share his story. It’s given me a lot to think about and I’ll either fully get it or I won’t, but he’s a good teacher…

    Thanks Terrance!

    Much Love,

  120.  #120Mercedes on July 29, 2009 at 9:32 am

    Not only that, but I asked him some very personal questions and made some very judgemental comments and he didn’t even once get offended. I talk the way I want to (or at least in whatever manner feels right at the time) and he very gently guides me back onto the path and offers to help even more…That’s cool stuff! 🙂

    Much Love,

  121.  #121Simply Shannon on July 29, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    There’s so many posts happening all at once that I’m having a hard time keeping up!

    Terrance: I feel flattered. Truly. Thank you. I feel my face blushing. Thank you! Please don’t think you need to choose your words so that they are non-triggering. You just need to be you. YOU are not triggering me (or others). *I* am triggering me when I read everyone’s posts and roll the words around in my head. It’s my past experiences coming to the surface (and possibly being dealt with in a healthy way, so thank you). I like how you write. I feel your honesty and desire to share and learn. And thank you again for the kind words.

    A little bit of irony for the day – I was just on Facebook and one of my friends changed the quote on her page. I’m stealing it. It’s my new life motto…

    I’m selfish, impatient, and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best. – Marilyn Monroe

    I LOVE IT.

    I am not a perfect person. I have moments of weakness and insecurity. Sometimes I cry for absolutely no reason. And when I feel like it, I wear my Bitch hat proudly. So what? I am a beautiful lady, an enthusiastic lover, a loyal friend, a smart cookie, a hard worker, a comedian and a rock-star in my car. I’m a package deal. You can’t have all the good stuff without the not-so-fun stuff. And I don’t know much about the Riffing tool yet, but I guess I’d have to say, I love my not-so-fun stuff too. It’s a part of me. And I’m slowly starting to believe that I ROCK. 🙂

  122.  #122heartbeat on July 29, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    Shannon – you rock 🙂

    “I’m selfish, impatient, and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best. – Marilyn Monroe”


  123.  #123ruth on July 30, 2009 at 6:53 am

    It feels absolutely heavenly reading this post. I feel the gf of Terence should no doubt keep her options open and she should not change to be someone she is not. This will ultimately end up with her feeling used especially if she does not like the person she turns out to be. As for Terence do not live and love the potential, I feel you should find the woman who fulfills your criteria. You can only find happiness within yourself. And as for one committing to another following consideration I feel it is not the right way to go. There will always be a disturbing feeling of ‘I could have done better’ so essentially one is settling. Rori says it so beautifully ‘circular dating and creating boundaries oh and expressing oneself’ is an absolute winner. I feel I have given my 2 cents worth of knowledge.

  124.  #124heather on July 31, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    this blog entry makes me remember that quote:

    “where love deliberates, love is slight. Whoever loved, that loved not at first sight.”

  125.  #125Kristine on July 31, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    Seduction techniques used by men like Terrance attract only insecure, fearful women. Looks like he got what he bargained for. A real man knows what he wants and will go for it. A real woman would feel confident enough not to put up with his B.S. and will not change who she is for any man.


  126.  #126Kristine on July 31, 2009 at 9:24 pm

    I am just amazed at the amount of time spent on this blog analyzing what men do or said. The focus should not be on them, it should be on us. There are billions of men in this world. If one guy treats you in a way that feels bad to you, just throw him back into the sea!!! Why sweat over it? Focus on making YOUR LIFE the best! Trust in abundance of the universe and make space in your life to attract someone who wants you for who you are. Just feel that u deserve it, be patient and it will come! Just BE, stop chasing, grasping, hanging on to his every word or action and stop analyzing! Have some faith goddess sisters! Relaxxxxx and enjoy all the gifts that the world has to offer!


  127.  #127Fernando on July 31, 2009 at 11:22 pm

    Kristine, while I understand why you feel that way, I feel like you don’t know Terrance (or I, and I’ve studied many of the same things Terrance has) and as such, it’s wrong of you to categorize him until you get to know him.

    If you don’t like someone, you probably simply don’t truly know them.

  128.  #128Daria on August 1, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Heather –

    Thanks for the quote, I felt lit up by it AND then I realized it is untrue for me (good because I want love to show up for me all kinds of ways, even not on sight).

    I know in particular one man I still have feelings for that I knew for a while and did not feel attracted to him that way on first sight.

  129.  #129DocK on August 3, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Hi Daria

    Off topic for ANY thread here – but wanted to mention that my nephew sent my sister an email – he is in Romania right now. (He is visiting the countries of his parents’ heritage.) Maybe I will get to visit some day. : )

  130.  #130ABC on September 27, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    this is good. thank you Terrance, i’ve been to your blog, you’ve got some great advice, but your blog doesn’t have many updates and you don’t write a lot to keep up going there!!
    anyway, i have to say the HELP thing works. most of the time when i ask for help from a man, i get a positive respond, and even if i didn’t, I know that’s not the man i want to be friends with/be involved with anyway. So it works.
    But i just want to point out that everyone is different, some women are more feminine than others, and it’s also very important the way you ask, the way you sound when you ask a man for help. it has to come from a very soft place, otherwise it sounds like an order or request. and no man responds well to an order.
    If he’s mature, he will be more than willing to help you out, if he’s not, he probably just wants his own needs met first before he considers everyone else’s. So it’s a great way to weed out the men you don’t want to be around too.