If You’re Going To Play BIG – You’re Going To Meet Haters – What To Do…

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321 white teethwhite croppedI get about three “hate mails” a day – have since the beginning of “Rori Raye.”

This is about how to not have to READ it, not have to deal with it, how to embrace it instead of fight it, and how to lessen the stress and impact of it on your life – WITHOUT turning down your wattage, dialing down your power and boldness, or silencing your strong voice for yourself and other women.

It’s about how to go fearlessly into “Going BIG!

First – I’ve been there, I’m there now, I’ll always be there.

It’s part of the deal I accept as a public person, and part of my personal self-development in becoming an increasingly bold, plain-speaking, straight-shooting, creative, powerful and HAPPY woman.

These are just some of my experiences:

I once had a video up on youtube that got SO MANY slimy awful comments, I took it down.

I get blasted regularly on other relationship blogs (even those of well-known “gurus” who are my friends!).

I get “disliked” and dissed on Facebook.

I get “hate” comments on my blog.

I’ve been approached for “friendship” when it’s obvious it only has to do with “business” and my status as a well-known brand.

…Ever read the comments on HuffPo?

And there was a very clever segment on Jimmy Kimmel about “haters” – where celebrities went on camera reading some tweets about themselves (and just a FEW of the thousands that must be out there).

These celebrities “should,” you’d think, be used to it, have “thick skins…” – AND, they were nothing like that. You could see some of them actually tear up reading these horrible things people said, out loud and live.

This is inescapable when you go big. How you DEAL with it is the important piece.

It’s said this is the “price of celebrity.”

And – what if it’s really NOT so “awful?”

What if the service we women “Going BIG!” provide as lightening rods for other people is doing “good” for the world?

What if the “conversation” – even if begun by a “hate” message – turns into something valuable for other women who want to Go BIG but feel held back in so many ways?

I’m very , very, very sensitive. I react intensely when a Business Siren student has even a minor glitch or concern. I handle it immediately, unless I give myself time to breathe and percolate – and then I still handle it ASAP for my own peace of mind.

You’d think a sensitive person like me, who broods for days upon reading a “hateful” comment on my blog or youtube video, or a hateful message that appears in my email box, would make me want to “dial myself back” or simply stop my functioning.

And yet, I make peace, and I continue on.

There Are Solutions:

1. Fall in love with the comment, the letter, the email, and with the hater.

It’s what you do.

This is what makes you a spiritual, effective woman, professional power wielder and thought leader.

2. Get a fake assistant to answer anything you don’t want to answer.

3. Get someone else to handle your email and comments, and delete the icky ones, respond to what needs responding to in an official way, and forward to you the good stuff. This is what my publishing company does for me. It relieved me so much I cannot adequately describe.

4. Control the comments on your blog.

You can set your comments to block certain names, certain email addresses, certain words.

It’s been awhile since I had to block anyone – but I never hesitate to notify and then block anyone I feel isn’t following the guidelines to speak only in Feeling Messages.

I don’t allow anything unkind or highly opinionated, or about religion or politics 0r anything off-topic.

Some might say this is “overkill” – and yet, over the years, it’s become highly important for me to create a “safe” environment around everything I do – around my “Community” of Sirens.

If you’d like to get more Tips like this – for ALL Business Siren and Modern Siren experiences – and, most important, to work with me PERSONALLY about your questions your concerns, your fears and exhilarating visions of “going BIG!” – join me in my next Have It All! live Teleclass Tuesday, May 12th at 4:30pm PDT, 7:30 EDT.

Go here to find out how the Have It All Membership works:

Have It All Teleclass Membership

How we react to “hateful” words thrown at us is part of what separates those of us who want to play “small” from those of us who want to play BIG.

It “comes with the territory.”

Instead of trying to “block” all of this from your experience – learn to not only “roll with it” – but to EMBRACE it!

Instead of calling it “negative” – call it FUEL!

You CAN learn to USE the energy of others’ fear and rage to go even BIGGER!!!

You CAN “ride” the torpedoes to your OWN success in everything you want in life – instead of trying to fight them off with your own artillery guns and shields.

It’s not that these kind of “hateful” experiences are a “challenge.”

What’s important is that the more hate and fear we see out there – the more CRUCIAL it is for EACH of us to play BIG, be heard, and change the world.

Wear each hate message like a BADGE of HONOR!!!

Love, Rori


  1.  #1Femininewoman on April 30, 2015 at 7:52 am

    I like the sound of playing big.

  2.  #2Senior Lady Vibe on April 30, 2015 at 8:49 am

    “Playing big” isn’t even required for receiving hateful responses–just being outside playing in the garden all by oneself will elicit all kinds of attacks especially if you mention anything about being happy or excited with your life…

    Oh, well… carrying on as usual… :mellow:


  3.  #3Waterfall on April 30, 2015 at 2:26 pm

    Hi Sirens,

    Sorry, but I am just going to vent…
    This blog post is so timely and I just feel all welled up.

    It seems so easy for Rori (I’m sure it’s not…)

    I feel I could easily block everyone from my life because I am so ultra sensitive. There would be no good stuff coming through, it would just be an empty void..

    I feel like I have to go back to people in my life who abuse me all the time because literally there would be no-one in my life if I didn’t. People don’t get that.

    It’s easy to come out with these sweeping statements if you have got at least one, two or three friends on your side. When you have no-one and are used to every single person talking down to you it is a lot harder. It’s easy to be confidence when you have people around you who praise you and tell you you are great. Even if it’s just one or two people, if you value their opinion then it doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks.

    I don’t know why, or what it is about me but I always seem to incite so much negativity in people. Sometimes I feel like I only have to breathe or be for people to get angry or annoyed with me. I am often left with the feeling of “What have I said?” or “What did I do wrong?”

    Because I must be autistic or something, or have some really, really strange mental illness because I can’t understand what I am doing wrong.

    I feel like I could say “Oh, what a lovely day it is” and the person I am talking to would start arguing with me. Seriously, I am utterly confused with life most of the time…

  4.  #4Lovergirl on April 30, 2015 at 2:42 pm


    Hugs. It sometimes feels like a lonely world out there, I think for everyone at one time or another. I think one of the big positives of circular dating is that it gets you out there meeting new people and seeing that taking abuse is NOT your only option.

  5.  #5Millie on April 30, 2015 at 4:50 pm

    I like the sound of “playing big” too! It feels like owning it, strutting my stuff, and being confident in everything I do! Yay!

    I’ve been reading this book that Curvy Siren suggested. It’s really great!! I wanted to share some of my processing about my break up and what happened with my guy. I’m finding that I’m not so far down the rabbit hole of not loving myself as I thought! I do have a lot of self work to do in regards to that– but I’m in a good place. I was thinking that leaning forward is trying to make what we want to happen, happen, as well as clinging to a man who is exiting. As much as this is a survival reflex, I also think it is our bodies way of helping a man out the door. If we know it doesn’t work.. Why do we do it? Desperation on an emotional level yes, but on a physical level… Maybe it is our bodies way of pushing someone who isn’t giving us what we want away… Obviously in a twisted, not fully developed, way. And I wonder… If maybe I did the right thing. I rocked the boat. I felt my reality. I was honest with how I felt and I expressed it to him, maybe not in the best way…. But the intent was there. I will not stay in a relationship where I feel unhappy or a low priority. I will not. So I leaned forward. I acknowledged the shift. And he left. And maybe I did myself a great favor because down the road, as much as he could have proved himself to be a great partner… The underlying and undeniable truth about him is that he turns his back on people. He shut his father out when his father left his mother, he shut his last gf out because he didn’t know how to communicate, and he shut the door on me. His mother…. Well all I know is his phone was off for a couple nights and that tells me he is shutting out a lot more than me.

    So… I’m seeing this in a different light. I want to be honest about who this person is and take responsibility for my part. I saw red flags and I chose to beleive who he was in front of me, rather than who he said he “usually is.” Which turns out, is a person that revealed himself at the end.

    Just thinking out loud. I know many people have already said all of this to me and I just wasn’t in a place to really HEAR and beleive it! but I am now…

  6.  #6Millie on April 30, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    ((Waterfall)) I feel so sad hearing this. My first reaction is to say that perhaps how you perceive other people to be treating you is a mirror to how you treat yourself? But I’m not sure…. It makes me sad to hear you have no supportive friends or family. Big hugs.

  7.  #7Mandy on April 30, 2015 at 6:01 pm

    I can just imagine some hard-core radical feminists totally taking their anger out on Rori. I understand lots of women have done lots of work to put themselves into a position of power, even over men around them…

    But what is, is…being overpowering with a masculine man…doesn’t work…lol.

    She has total faith in that and she won’t budge. That’s turning it into power. The knowledge that she is there, not lifting a finger to debate these people, but only focusing on herself and being honest with herself…

    Use the pain and the sorrow…to fill you up with power…life’s both sweet and sour…not to say just be fake okay with everything all the time…but really use the pain or anger to fuel you to do something awesome. I love this.

    I did it with my weight loss…and get this…my ex’s PARENTS came to me on Facebook the other day, and said they were happy for me…about my transformation, and these people never paid one iota of attention to me when I was with their son.

    My ex told me once, when I was 50 lbs heavier, don’t cut your hair, it will make you look heavier…now that I’m not with him and I have slimmed down, I cut all my hair off into this asymmetrical sassy cute cut I’ve always wanted…and everyone tells me it is so much more me…the glee I get from it…I took my pain from being rejected…and made myself work hard to overcome it, using the fact I didn’t like feeling unwanted, to work towards this goal of releasing myself from the awful grip of people who judge upon looks…and when I reached it, the icing on the cake was doing EXACTLY what I’d been told not to, by him specifically…cut my hair really short. πŸ™‚

    You have no idea how freeing and awesome it felt…the hair leaving my neck…and how awesome it FEELS to know my ex KNOWS I overcame the odds and went against everything he told me.

    How’s that for making things right? I feel so powerful!

  8.  #8Emerson on April 30, 2015 at 7:20 pm

    Wow Rori this feels so powerful to read….
    I really had an “aha” moment last week at work with the “haters” that I encounter there daily. I don’t know if they are jealous, racist, immature, catty or whatever else….I realized it doesn’t matter what the cause is. They are negative and treat me badly, and since day one I have remained friendly and tried to “win them over”….

    Last week I hit a wall.

    I realized I will NEVER “win them over”….and why waste my energy?

    I just completely flipped my mentality around it and decided that although i will be civil and professional, I will no longer waste my time being super helpful and “nice” all the time. I’ll instead focus my energy on myself and on my work.

    I felt instantly relieved and it felt refreshing. I felt free and I felt like I could walk with my head held high. Just thought I would share.

  9.  #9Mandy on April 30, 2015 at 7:21 pm


    Wow. I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t flush used tampons down the toilet. Pads should be wrapped up in the pad’s wrapper. This person almost sounds like she’s trying to mark her territory, lol.

    I remember when my ex started living with me at my parent’s. He would start leaving the toilet seat up. This drove me absolutely mad…I had never had to worry about it before because my parents taught my twin brother to be respectful of his sister whom he shares a bathroom with and to put the seat down after using it.

    But ya, it was about power. After some time he stopped, maybe after I embarrassed him about it, lol (I hadn’t found Rori Raye yet…:) )

  10.  #10Beloved on April 30, 2015 at 8:24 pm

    Mandy – I didn’t take it that way, I just assumed it was careless.
    J also lied to my face, again, which I didn’t catch in the moment, DANG I’ve gotten slow in my old age! I used to be SO quick at catching that kind of stuff!

    I’m not going to worry about it and focus on it too much, I’m going to keep the focus on me and empowering myself.

    I feel kind of bummed, though…even though I’ve enjoyed school and learned a lot and stretched in ways I didn’t know I could this year, I feel like the borderline behaviors got the best of me again without me realizing it. I really do not understand why I didn’t just quit the job I had when I knew I was going to hate it, and ask for a new assignment. Why, I HAD to go off on this whim to school, I don’t know. It’s just what I had to do, I guess.

    I have grown, though, I’m not completely delusional and disconnected like I used to be. I can feel my feelings, ask for help, have made real connections and cultivated new friendships. I’ve bawled my eyes out at how vulnerable I feel without T, without caving in and leaning forward, I tell the truth more often than not about how I feel, I am better and better at being present, switching my focus to feeling good, resisting blame. It’s been a couple of years since I’ve gotten out of the shady work affair and I haven’t gotten entangled in anything really bad and abusive since.
    This is as bad as it’s been for a couple of years, so.
    I want to love and appreciate myself for that right now πŸ™‚

  11.  #11Indigo on April 30, 2015 at 10:48 pm


    I just wanted to comfort you by saying that I also feel that way at times, admittedly more so in the past than now, but there are big parts of that feeling that remain, and I know of at least one or two other sensitive people who feel that way, so you are NOT alone.

    I am extremely sensitive. I’ve heard it being described as being awake, while others are asleep. As much as you might like to gloss over things and pretend you don’t see them, you can’t, because that’s not how sensitivity works. A sensitive nervous system is like a satellite dish, receiving information from far and wide. If you read up on people who are knowledgeable about the subject, you will hear that this does produce some discomfort in others, which you’ve already experienced. I used to feel like a poultice for other people – they couldn’t hide it from me if they were angry or upset or unsure or whatever else, and though I tried not to draw attention to it, I’m sure they felt exposed in my presence.

    I think what you might like to remember is that there is a lot to love about being sensitive, both for you and for others. You connect more easily to others and the world, you experience more, you see more. And this has its downsides. But I think the more you can embrace the way that you are, the more easily you will find your niches in the world. That’s how it has been for me. And I’ve learned to pull my energy back from other people (it’s so easy to get entwined with other people’s energy when you’re sensitive but it’s not a good thing over the long run) and not to worry about what they think of me. All I have to worry about is my part – am I being kind, am I taking responsibility etc. The more you are self-accepting the more others will accept you, although I have learned to accept that I will probably never have more than a couple of close friends and I spend a lot of time alone.

    Sending you love

  12.  #12Indigo on April 30, 2015 at 11:04 pm

    On the subject of haters, I heard about Rori from reading a piece on Evan Marc Katz’s website where he was criticising her CIrcular Dating advice. As I read all the negative comments, I became intrigued and wanted to find out for myself, and that’s how I found this place. So yes, good can from others being negative about you, maybe more often than we might think.

    I think the whole phenomenon of “hating” on someone who hasn’t done anything to you personally is so baffling, and interesting. I’ve more and more come to believe that it is because that person is holding up a light for the hater to see where they are running from themselves, abandoning their own goals and dreams. After all, you can only be a hater from a comfort zone, I believe. Anyone who was actually getting down and dirty, doing the hard work to fulfill their own goals would have too much respect for someone else who has done the same to tear them down.

    I found it so interesting – at my previous job there was a woman I was friendly with, we bonded over our common complaints and unhappiness with the boss and the job. She often used to say how she dreamed of leaving the place and was trying to find something else. Anyway, when I was offered the job I’m currently in, one I’ve been wanting for a while, and went to hand in my resignation, I rushed to tell her, thinking she’d be happy for me. Well initially she was, but then after telling me at least twice how jealous she was, she pulled away from me totally. Her vibe towards me became extremely cool, even a tiny bit hostile. It was so interesting. I had no doubt that with determination she could have found a better job where she could have been happy, there was nothing special about the efforts I went to. But I found it so interesting that people would rather be negative about people who are bettering themselves than look at their own lives.

  13.  #13Emerson on May 1, 2015 at 12:37 am

    12 Indigo thanks for sharing this.
    Good for you going after what you want. I am happy to hear this.
    I hope your “friend” finds her way eventually and I’m sure she will. Too bad she chose to isolate herself, rather than continue a friendship with you. After all, friends help each other and who knows, ,,,you could have been the one to help her get a job out of there. And she blew that.
    Well maybe the reality is that she really doesn’t want to leave…some people are comfortable where they are and content to complain about it….it’s their comfort zone. The actual concept of leaving and making a real change is not reality for them.
    Regardless of what’s going on with her, I’m glad you found a better place to work.

  14.  #14Indigo on May 1, 2015 at 12:43 am

    Hey Emerson,

    Thank you so much for your kind words. If there is one thing my life has taught me, it is that it is better to venture into the unknown than stay in a situation that makes you unhappy. I took a bold step by changing careers, and my new job has ended up being a much better fit for me in many ways.

    I think you are right – some people are content to complain yet stay where they are. Many people are afraid of change, even with the potential happiness it brings.

  15.  #15Waterfall on May 1, 2015 at 7:19 am

    Thank you Indigo!

    Yes, I have been thinking about it today. I had a weird altercation with a work colleague yesterday and it left me feeling really wobbly. I burst into tears on the way home from work and felt miserable. I actually don’t know what I said to the guy to upset him so much.

    It started off with me trying to be friendly and just make a light conversation and before I knew he he was drawing me in to talking about deeper work stuff. He would barely look at me and seemed so dismissive of what I was saying. I couldn’t really get my head around it.

    I am a designer and he is a developer, maybe that is the issue. Even though I was agreeing with him and trying to open up avenues of conversation he was shutting me down on every corner trying to twist and turn what I was saying into something dark and negative. I left the conversation feeling really confused and upset.

    Basically I was trying to defend “design” and the design process and he was patronising me telling me I should use data and stats etc to form my design making process. I told him I agreed. Yet, he still didn’t seem happy with that. He kept shrugging his shoulder and generally looking dismissive.

    I also told him design isn’t just a scientific process and I started to talk about good graphic design and the role of the designer etc. I used the connection to art how and artist has to interpret a brief, and he more of less snorted at me and told me what I was doing was not art at all and would not be around in 100’s of years time.

    I felt defensive because this was not my point. My point was just about the process, and something I believe very strongly and I have seen in practice. I also have 15 years experience under my belt so I know what I’m talking about.

    He looked at me like I was the most stupidest person on the planet, and in essence this is what made me want to burst into tears.

    I think I felt so upset not about what he said, but the fact that he had the audacity to say it to me. I could bet my bottom dollar he would not speak to my boss, the other designers or any other designer like that. It felt personal, like it was just about me…?!

    I came away feeling really confused…

  16.  #16Waterfall on May 1, 2015 at 7:48 am

    I think it is possibly more to do with the negative aspects of the industry that I work in. I am a web designer.

    There is a real undercurrent theme that has developed in the last 5 years to undermine the designer. And along the way the designer has been very belittled in the process. I think I just see it more than others… or it certainly seems to affect me more. Maybe it’s also because I have worked with some top rate designers and I know the bullshit we get fed by other people.

    It’s almost like the whole world has decided to gang up on us. But when they need our services to make their websites look pretty then they all come back cap in hand, tale between their legs. And like I say, I have seen it ALL before…

    I think it is something to do with the swing of power. At one time the designer had the power and now the pendulum swings towards the developer. I do think in lots of degrees this is right, but it’s only right if it’s done for the right reasons.

    Some developers seem to have huge chips on their shoulders towards designers. I guess I don’t blame them in some ways, because I’ve always felt that they were scape goats a lot of the time.

    I tried to explain to this guy that design isn’t just about the colour of a button or the typeface you use. It’s actually about a lot more than that, but it is very hard to put into words.

    Also as a designer I understand that although design is important, it is not everything. Logic and functionality and other aspects are just, if not more so, important. For example it is more important for the website (or thing) to function properly that to look good. Also good can mean different things to different people. Again, it is up to the designer to interpret that.

    I wanted to talk to him about all sorts of design. Facebook when it was first designed was just this clunky, basic user interface. But it worked! The idea was there.. The concept… But I just couldn’t convey all of these things to him. He was too closed minded…

    And that MASSIVELY frustrates me. I work with sooo many clever people.. But they are NOT visionary, or able to really “get it” and it is soooo demoralising sometimes..

    I just feel so frustrated hitting my head against a brick wall.

    Design these days seems to be about scientific processes and quantifying every little thing you do.. That is designing based on fear in my opinion. You have to have 100’s of people quantifying your design before you can say it’s good. Lol, I find this so frustrating… this does not inspire creativity.

    Sure, you will get something that “works”. It will look okay… It will be okay… But it will be dull. And it will be stilted and charmless…

    I dunno… maybe I need to move jobs but I’m feeling so uninspired at the moment, because the company as a whole I really like, and I know I can make a difference there. I think I can! πŸ˜‰ (poss not!!)


    Interesting though..

  17.  #17Dominique on May 1, 2015 at 7:51 am

    Waterfall – oh dear…my heart goes out to you, for I know so well how this feels. You know what you know, and you feel what you feel. And as an ultra sensitive , you will feel all of this even more acutey. Every act can be approached as a work of art, especially something like you create. And sadly only another artist like you or another ultra sensitive will understand. We are very much in a minority which is perfectly okay, wonderful even.
    So how do you handle someone like this? Well. ..explaining as you discovered will likely get you nowhere which feels good. All you can really do is smile, and walk away, and you might also add – thank you for your input – or something like this, IF you so inspired.
    Love to you.

  18.  #18Indigo on May 1, 2015 at 7:54 am

    Again Waterfall, I have experienced this many times. I am small and softly spoken and I have a sort of girlish look and very calm, and people have often used this as an excuse to try and railroad me. The only solution I have found is to avoid these types. Being calm yet firmly assertive works very well and this is a skill I have had to learn but NOT one I like to employ. I like my life to have a calm, gentle, respectful pace to it. If is someone who makes you unhappy on a regular basis I would recommend to avoid. If it continues, for me as a sensitive person, it is worth it to move companies. I have gone to great lengths to find a place to work where everyone is patient and kind and respectful and softly spoken, but as a sensitive person it has been absolutely worth it.

  19.  #19Azure Blu on May 1, 2015 at 8:20 am

    How vulnerable and authentic your heart is to share all of this with us here….

    Wow… I’m a graphic designer also…
    and yes… the age old differences between the
    programmers and designers…
    Which, when we collaborate…
    makes a powerful thing of beauty (web site)

    Right now, I am VERY fortunate, I have a wonderful marketing director
    who has hired me for My graphic design expertise…
    and we collaborate with an AMAZING programmer!!!

    While she watches all the statistics, analytics etc.
    she gives me the direction she is wanting to go in (print and online advertising)
    and together we come up with some cutting edge design for this company!!!
    which has more than tripled their sales in the past 4 months!!! Yay for the power of Design!!

    I agree with Dominique…
    I have learned to NOT take negative people personally… He probably is that way with EVERYONE!!!

    What are the feelings that are coming up around this?..
    Maybe you could dig deeper and take a look at
    the feelings this brought up
    For me this would be a great opportunity for
    MORE healing and compassion for ALLL
    those wonderful feelings that are YOURS!!!

    Actually I am saying this for ME also…
    Today… I opened up 2 emails from this volunteer board member
    that made me feel SOOOO snubbed
    She has actually treated me this way off and on for the past 5 years… (this is my last year on the board)
    Her attitude Might have something to do with:
    I have a tendency to act flighty and NOT serious about myself…
    This does have a tendency to give people like her
    opportunity to be dismissive about MY ideas…
    MY feeling are:
    invisible – BIG demon
    stupid – BIG demon
    I LOVE all of you lovely, darling FEELINGS
    come sit here beside me…
    I will listen to you and give you huggs.

    Thank you Waterfall for helping me with this!!

  20.  #20Indigo on May 1, 2015 at 9:50 am

    I’m thinking I need a pep talk from Labbit, if she feels open to giving one (if not, that’s perfectly fine too πŸ™‚ ) about why it’s important to give a man his space when he’s withdrawing and to remember that it’s his stuff and not make it about me, and NOT go after him.

    I made a rather big mistake and let my stress and worry run away with me, hence the request for a pep talk. D did this on Tuesday night and Wednesday – withdrew. Now, I have gotten so used to talking to him everyday and seeing him nearly every day for the last few weeks that it totally threw me. I SHOULD have seen it coming because he always does this after a long stretch of closeness and usually, pretty predictably, every 2 months or so. But no, I totally stressed out. He was so kind and put money into my account because my salary was late and I sent him a message on Tuesday night wanting to thank him. No response. I couldn’t get hold of him the whole of Wednesday and I PANICKED. He has health issues, and I must say a part of my mind goes to the worst possible scenario. I leaned forward in the worst possible way and went over to his house. He said he hadn’t received my messages because he’d been pulling back from all of that that day but he would have got hold of me in due course. I felt like an idiot of course because nothing was wrong and I had convinced myself there was and had absolutely stressed myself out. Then it turned out that he needed to withdraw for a bit and didn’t want to talk things through with me and I felt even worse, and it ended on a bad note between us. But I think mostly I was angry with myself for leaning forward. The emotions and voices got very powerful and I wish I somehow had a better handle on my emotions in situations like this (and yes, I did try the focusing on other things, throwing myself into my work, bubble bath, long walk etc. but it didn’t help enough)

    Pep talk please?

  21.  #21Emerson on May 1, 2015 at 9:53 am

    I feel intrigued reading about your industry. It feels inspiring to hear about your loyalty to creativity…lots of great ideas have been unconventional and not “quantified approval from 100 people”….that is just silly I agree. Keep shining.

    WOW! I LOVE the part about your haircut especially. I have always like short haircuts but I don’t have the features for it LOL….so empowering that you are transforming yourself. I am reminding myself that it’s never too late. I have never really struggled with my weight until the last couple of years. I am now in the process of losing and shaping up and it feels great, I’m still afraid of “failing”…but I’ll keep it up anyway!!

  22.  #22Emerson on May 1, 2015 at 9:55 am

    When a man withdraws like you described D, it is so hard for me too!!! I feel rejected and anxiety about it.

  23.  #23Emerson on May 1, 2015 at 9:57 am

    I don’t know about a pep talk Indigo….I can’t claim to be good at that…but I will say i can totally relate to your leaning forward and stressing yourself out. I’ve done it too.

    for me it feels better when I do that to tell myself “be gentle with yourself” and avoid beating myself up.

    Also I remember Rori or Dominique saying something about how men don’t really hold grudges and even though you felt like things ended on a bad note, he will probably act like nothing happened tomorrow πŸ™‚

  24.  #24Indigo on May 1, 2015 at 10:24 am

    Emerson 22: YES! The anxiety and rejection. So silly really, because intellectually I know that he hasn’t gone anywhere, that it couldn’t possibly be about me and that he has a right to withdraw. But the disconnect between my logical brain and my feelings and the thoughts they create is MASSIVE.

    23: I know this will blow over, and probably soon in a big picture kind of way, but yes I do think things ended on a bad note. He left the room and I burst into tears.

  25.  #25Azure Blu on May 1, 2015 at 10:27 am

    Ahhh… sweet Siren…
    I’m so sorry you are feeling this anxiety…
    I agree with Emerson…
    Of course you would have been worried about D…
    NOT being able to get in touch with him…
    YOU certainly should NOT feel bad about going over to his house (you have been together for over 4 years)
    to make sure all is well!!!
    Most anyone would do that for someone they love and who loves them…
    It feels VERY hurtful to be rejected when you were simply worried about HIM!!!

    You can NEVER say the wrong thing to the right man…
    missunderstandings will always happen in a relationship…
    it’s how HE handles them and
    still make you feel loved and cherished

    If he was TOOO unloving
    I might set up a boundary and LEAN WAY BACK
    and NOT be so available when next he contacts ME…
    Withdrawing is fine…
    BUT it doesnt have to be hateful…

    Maybe when this is all done….
    you can ask him if there is a solution he could come up with that would let you know he is ok when he does this next time?

  26.  #26Indigo on May 1, 2015 at 10:39 am

    Azure Blu 25,

    Thank you for this post to me, it was SO beautiful.

    yes, very beautiful thoughts for me to ponder here…

  27.  #27Labbit on May 1, 2015 at 11:20 am


    I am here! I have been thinking about this a lot lately, especially while Tender was away. Although he wasn’t really withdrawing from me that is how it FELT to me and so I came face-to-face with many triggers as you probably are now.

    Remember that every man, even a man who loves you with all his heart and can picture himself only with you, can only take so much intimacy. The amount of intimacy each man can handle is different and because they can’t feel their emotions the way we do, it’s not something they’re likely to talk about or express. They are like a circuit breaker and it’s really easy for them to overload that ‘intimacy’ circuit. This isn’t a bad thing; it just is. And when it breaks they need some time to themselves to figure out which circuit overloaded and to reset it back to normal.

    Don’t think of him as going away…think of him as taking care of himself, in the same way you or I would take a bubble bath, go for a walk, go to the spa, etc. He only knows how to do this by himself. While it may have pushed him backwards a bit when you went to his home, I feel that you two are close enough now where it certainly would not push him out of the bubble. Men forget things like this very quickly and you should allow yourself to forget it, too. Don’t beat yourself up with it…laugh at it for the momentary silliness it was. πŸ™‚

    When you start to feel that tension rise, those old fears come in, I want you to think of this, something a very wise friend told me: in a relationship you want to be like two magnets of opposite charges, magnetically attracted to each other. When your man is lost in the darkness, he is drowning in his masculinity. He is looking for your soft, feminine energy to help him find the light again. If you are fearful, if you are anxious or worried, he can’t find the light, neither of your magnets will be pulling towards each other. He can’t feel your energy. When you are relaxed, your creative feminine energy and light are flowing out of you like a beacon and he will feel it and come to you all the quicker.

    This doesn’t mean it’s UP TO YOU to pull him out of the cave, it’s not your responsibility. It’s just a gentle reminder that we are powerful as women and although we can’t control anyone else’s actions, we can help the energy of anything if we so choose. When you are in your natural, carefree, feminine state, all things are drawn to you. Seek to find this place within where the calm is hiding. Turn your magnet back to ‘attract’. This in turn will wake up his positive masculine attributes, and he’ll be back to wrapping you up in his arms and making all your worries melt away in no time. πŸ™‚

  28.  #28Labbit on May 1, 2015 at 11:25 am

    Also Indigo you’ve probably read this, but I do love this article from Sami Wunder very much:

  29.  #29Lovergirl on May 1, 2015 at 1:04 pm

    ((Indigo)) Hugs. I love Labbit’s advice to you. It’s hard when they pull away and so difficult to understand from a woman’s perspective. I haven’t heard from S in 4 days now, which is the longest he’s ever gone so I’m reading all this stuff for myself right now too.

  30.  #30Catherine on May 1, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    Let me apologize to you on behalf of the haters: “I’m sorry.” You don’t deserve any of it. I can only think that the reason you get hate mail is because you are SO giving and loving that it is obvious that the rest of us don’t measure up — and somehow, they feel the need to try to diminish you somehow.
    I’ve never commented before — just lurked off and on a couple years. Whenever I need a boost, I can come to you — to your blog — and get good advice and I feel better. Thank you for doing that for me. I just wanted to let you know that I’m here and I appreciate you; and there’s probably a lot more of us than there are of “them”.

    Thanks again for all that you do.

  31.  #31IamHis on May 1, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    Rori, I’ll admit I don’t agree with everything you teach, but I respect & appreciate you so much & you’ve certainly helped me tremendously these past few years, so thank you! Boo hate mail! πŸ™‚

    This is such a profound & timely read for me, so thank you for it specifically as well. πŸ™‚

  32.  #32IamHis on May 1, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    Reminds me of that quote by Marianne Williamson, summarized something like “who are you to be strong, smart, & beautiful? Who are you NOT to be those things when those things are what you truly are?” Don’t be less than. ..

  33.  #33IamHis on May 1, 2015 at 8:20 pm

    I met a new guy at work today. He’s my age at least or older and I feel attracted to him. Guys my own age or older feel so intimidating to me. They trigger a fear of intimacy in me. They’re all experienced and relationship ready. These are the things I tell myself, at least.

    He said something that felt curious to me. He said, “Your boyfriend must look like Brad Pitt.” It felt like he was checking to see if I had a boyfriend and like his indirect way of telling me he found me attractive.

    I felt really surprised & nervous, so I just kind of giggled nervously & said, “uh, yeah, something like that…”

    Ever since married coworker last year, I’ve been so paranoid/careful about/around married men. I just don’t want my heart or hormones to go anywhere near that.

    When he made that comment, I felt a little worried about his marital status, because he’s older & really good looking.

    But I noticed later that he wasn’t wearing a ring.

    & I started to feel pretty good about his random comment about my boyfriend looking like Brad Pitt…

  34.  #34lovetodance on May 1, 2015 at 8:23 pm


    i too am so impressed with your respect and committment to creativity! how eloquently you describe your convictions and wisdom from experience about this….

    you feel very strong and very sensitive in such a lovely way to me…

    and yes….finding kindred souls for you….who will savour your qualities and reflect back to you your lovely uniqueness…they are out there…you deserve them and you will find them!

  35.  #35lovetodance on May 1, 2015 at 8:38 pm


    what beautiful pearls you have shared here!

    i particularly love..

    ‘When you start to feel that tension rise, those old fears come in, I want you to think of this, something a very wise friend told me: in a relationship you want to be like two magnets of opposite charges, magnetically attracted to each other. When your man is lost in the darkness, he is drowning in his masculinity. He is looking for your soft, feminine energy to help him find the light again. If you are fearful, if you are anxious or worried, he can’t find the light, neither of your magnets will be pulling towards each other. He can’t feel your energy. When you are relaxed, your creative feminine energy and light are flowing out of you like a beacon and he will feel it and come to you all the quicker.’

    i feel this is so true…

    and i can confuse myself with this too….
    in terms of being vulnerable and saying something about my feeling state…ie…if i am sad…and share that ….sometimes i wonder too if that is a way of repelling the attraction….

    i know there are many different situations…depending on how one expresses themselves, the maturity of the man etc….

    just working with my authenticity…my vulnerability…how much to expose….always my question….

  36.  #36lovetodance on May 1, 2015 at 8:45 pm

    i am preparing myself to go to a dance and music festival….

    it is such a spiritual training ground for me…

    all the triggers are there

    ex unavailable man with girlfriend

    men who are very interested whom i am not

    men who i am invisible to

    ways i can judge and compare myself

    excitement, pleasure, desire, attachment, longing, aversion

    its all there…..sort a bardo type situation….

    and i go loving the music , the exchange, the social-
    ness….the joy of moving sensually and playfully and enjoying the throngs of human kind….especially when i am feeling good about myself…when i am loving and happy with myself….
    because i remind myself…if not now….when???

    ohhh to go knowing how beautiful i am …how each person is uniquely beautiful and to be able to ride the waves of what comes up for me….to be me and watch little and big me respond…and love myself thru it all…

    yes good for me to write this out…

  37.  #37Indigo on May 1, 2015 at 11:29 pm

    Labbit 27,

    Thank you very much. It feels lovely that you responded.

    I had read that article by Sami Wunder but the contents had gone completely out of my mind, and it was incredibly helpful, so thank you so much for pointing me to it. I love what both you and she had to say about men’s intimacy cycles – so hard to remember yet so critical. And I must say I don’t beat myself up nearly as much as I used to – for the most part I shrug it off, try to re-learn the lesson and move forward.

    Labbit, I loved how you described being the feminine energy, the light to guide him out of the darkness, the magnet, I loved all of how you described this and of course I want to be that way… but what do you do if you are temporarily drowning in your own feelings?

    You really have helped and provided more clarity, so thank you…

  38.  #38Indigo on May 1, 2015 at 11:30 pm


    Thank you for the hugs. I wish strength for you too. We’ll get through this.

  39.  #39Millie on May 2, 2015 at 2:44 am

    Labbit 27— oh this makes me look back and wish I had been better with my man. I miss him so much. I feel so many mixed feelings. I didn’t want to push him out of the bubble….. But he’s out now and I can’t stop thinking about it and bouncing between feeling pain and feeling release. Ahhhh

  40.  #40Labbit on May 2, 2015 at 5:38 am

    34 lovetodance — SO lovely to see you, I feel like I have missed you these last few weeks. Right now I am going through a phase of feeling unsure how self-expressive to be…I am just spinning through so many emotions and while I know Tender can ‘catch’ them I’m not sure I want to unleash all of them on him, ha. So I’m not sure I’m in the best head space to answer this at the moment, but I will say that in the dating phase I would only share things with a man that stuck with me for several days.

    For example if I didn’t hear from a guy for several days when he said he’d call or reach out, when he returned I might say something light like, “I feel so good being here with you now and I’m having so much tonite! I think I had built up some expectations last week, in my head I’d planned on hearing from you and when I didn’t I felt weird. I don’t like going that long without speaking…”

    Something like that, that’s just a rough script and could use a little cleanup but I would have to sit with it and feel it out a bit. πŸ™‚ My rule is generally anything that could be my gremlins, or anything that I make about him, I let stew inside and look for the trigger, the lesson. Anything that’s making me feel iffy about the relationship that’s still bothering me days later, I express in a feeling message that keeps it about me…if he’s done something that crosses a boundary, I let him know simply and directly, and then close the conversation.

    36 Indigo — Right now, my answer is that I have a few e-books that I really like because I always walk away from them feeling so calm and feminine. So in my most lost moments, I start to re-read them, or I’ll pick a random spot in the middle of the book to re-read from. It’s not distracting myself; it’s my way of finding an outside perspective that reminds me my head is going out of control at the moment. Usually it doesn’t take long to hit on a passage or chapter relevant to my situation and before long I’ll read something that highlights how silly my panic is, laugh about it, or at least feel much calmer.

    The other thing I do is call my big brother, because he always has great advice and can illustrate the male perspective for me in a non-judgmental way. But I realize that I’m very lucky to have him to call. πŸ™‚ My big sis too. I know that you had mentioned meditations at one point, are there any you can use here? Most of the books I have recommend breathing anyway when you are at your most panicked, and a few of them have visualizations to go along with the breathing.

    Really the point is that you don’t want to resist whatever you’re drowning in. You want to be brave, allow yourself to give them space WITHOUT believing a lick of what they’re saying to you and just think of them like currents down a river or a bonfire slowly burning. You can’t make the river flow any faster than it does. You can’t make the fire burn more quickly. You simply observe it without judging it or trying to stop it/change it, and in time it’s done and a wave of calm usually washes over you.

    38 Millie — You did the best you could, Siren. And honestly even if you’d known these things before it would not have changed the outcome with him. Things unfolded the way they did with this man so you could learn. πŸ™‚ It feels tough right now because he is your most recent intimacy, and I do understand how this tugs and pulls and makes you wish for any way to bring him back. But I have no doubt that very quickly a better man will come to take his place, and you’ll forget all about this guy.

  41.  #41Labbit on May 2, 2015 at 5:49 am

    Adding to what I said above, I wish I had something more concrete to give you Indigo — just do this and he’ll come running! Alas, I’ve learned that relaxing and leaning back is the best and only thing I can do, and I know how hard that is when the panic and fear take over. Try to find something, some words or meditation, anything that can awaken that still, calm part within while not resisting the fear flooding through you. It is only temporary.

  42.  #42Olivia on May 2, 2015 at 7:19 am

    Haven’t commented in awhile. On the pulling away cycle….I feel curious and hopeful…can I BEAT my man to the withdrawal cycle? In other words, intuit when he is entering that cycle so I can siren swim away and tend to myself first…so I don’t have to react and swim off. The reacting feels sad at first. Dominique? Sirena?

  43.  #43Lovergirl on May 2, 2015 at 8:30 am

    Ugh. Last night I was feeling awful about not hearing from S, so I emailed an online male friend that I have known for several years, to ask his opinion. He’s actually a dating coach for men and writes books and holds seminars helping them with their sex lives, so I thought he might have some perspective.

    I asked why he would be all intimate with me, then just disappear for so long? I wondered, is he using me for sex, did he get freaked out by the closeness, could it have to do with his worries about pregnancy (since that was the last thing he called me about)?

    He said the main reason was probably that he is screwing someone else “new and somewhat exciting” and that secondly, he got freaked out by the closeness. He said he doubted the pregnancy stuff had anything to do with it.

    I was like, what??? That makes me feel like 10 times worse and also how is it even likely that he would get all caught up in another woman so quickly after being with me? He said it would make sense if he fears intimacy with me. Then he said, but don’t worry, he will be back.

    I don’t know, but it added to the anxiety and nasty voices that are already spinning around inside of me. I feel extra vulnerable and abandoned. πŸ™ Then I looked on the swinger site this morning and saw that he had signed up for a party last night.

    S hadn’t been to a swinger party in quite awhile, so its like wth? It does feel like he is running away from the intimacy with me, which is confusing. It didn’t look like there were very many people signed up and the ones who were there didn’t look particularly attractive either, but you never know. He may have had sex but I have my doubts that it was with anyone he would be super caught up in.

    Now, I just feel more confused. I know all the advice says when men come back, to welcome them warmly but how do you even do that when you are a bundle of anxiety and stress and hurt?

  44.  #44lovetodance on May 2, 2015 at 9:14 am

    thank you for your response….

    altho i am not dating at the moment, all input in terms of authenticity vulnerability and stayin in the magnetic zone at the same time is soooo appreciated….this to me is a huge part of the art form of being a siren…being real, being juicy and magnetic and the authenticity fueling it….

    i really appreciate your feedback labbitt…so insightful and sensitive and wise…
    the time you take to answer sirens and reflect back to us, in the manner you do it…you feel like an old soul. someone who has a natural and healing way of councel, of witness….of lovingly with care giving back your experience and wisdom…thank you!

  45.  #45lovetodance on May 2, 2015 at 9:31 am


    ohhh sweet beautiful siren…. just want to support and hug you and mirror to you your incredibleness….

    i read your posts and am constantly amazed at your recilencey, patience, adorableness and wisdom…

    i imagine how you love and are so attached to S…and how you hurt…

    i have a problem with welcoming back someone who i go thro such changes with…in that way i am not a good rori siren….so i have no advice to say to you here…

    all i can say with full clarity and truthfullness is that i feel you are such a cool warm juicey siren that deserves to be treated with constancey and respect….

    if only s was just one of the guys in line for your attention…and that there were others vying for your attention…ones that you LIKED…. you know and i know [don’t mean to be presumptious here, but i guess i am] how quickly that would change the dynamic….

    of course finding those others can be work but from what i read and have absorbed from you ….you beautiful siren are a man magnet…
    maybe setting your magnet and believing that there are man of quality and readiness for you needs some work…..and of course we all know where that work begins…

    i am giving advice that i too need to heed….allowing myself quality, allowing myself to be loved and not lured into the attachment… here i am… here i’m not….addictive game…if that is part of what is happening here….i don’t know….

    we all have reasons we can give ourselves for not ever finding the right guy….age, children, weight, not smart enough …oh whatever we can put alot of energy into and believe….but those are stories…just stories….

    sultriness, lovability, deep soulfullness, playfullness, joy those are qualities…stories to invest in…stories that i am attracted to…probably cuz i have them too…as i feel you have….in bundles….you have so much life experience and keep dealing with your kiddies and keep bouncing back with what feels to me strength and a steadfast intention to have what you need…

    S right now feels like the only game in town that you want….that could turn on a dime…
    so sorry if i overspeak or over step…i just feel your tremendous worth and prize-ness….
    big hugs to you!

  46.  #46Indigo on May 2, 2015 at 9:51 am


    Thank you so much for this, it’s been so incredibly helpful.

  47.  #47Indigo on May 2, 2015 at 9:56 am


    I know you say you feel confused, but it’s not really confusing at all. In fact, you pinpointed it yourself pretty well. This is EXACTLY how men who are not ready for commitment behave. It certainly takes us aback, but it’s not very mysterious. Him pulling away right now is his way of keeping you at arm’s length. He knows you guys have just had a good, close time together, and for his own reasons that is making him feel frightened. Part of it is him reasserting that he is his own man and is free – probably why he went to that swingers party.

    All you have to decide is can you live with/handle this?

  48.  #48Indigo on May 2, 2015 at 9:57 am

    What I meant to say is yes, he is pulling away because of the intimacy/closeness.

  49.  #49Lovergirl on May 2, 2015 at 10:26 am

    Lovetodance (44)-

    Thank you for your support and kind words. It’s not like there aren’t other men out there, I’m just not feeling it for any of them. I’m trying to chat with men off dating sites too, but it doesn’t really make me feel any better. I know other men are attracted to me, they just don’t feel right.

    As for welcoming him back, right now I wonder if that would make me a total doormat? If I don’t hear from him for a week or who knows how long and I’m just like “it’s so good to hear from you” is he going to lose respect for me because I don’t voice that I feel mistrustful and abandoned? Or is that just nasty voices talking? It’s so confusing.

    I know I need to work on loving myself. I guess I can be thankful for the opportunity and try to focus on that. :/

  50.  #50Azure Blu on May 2, 2015 at 10:36 am

    lovetodance #35
    Ohhhh… I feel excited for you…
    You are NEW… You LOVE YOU more than ever before…
    Trusting yourself…
    LOVING and appreciating All of your feelings..
    being vulnerable and authentic AND
    Strong on the INSIDE!!

    As you have mentioned
    How exciting to experience this wonderful Festival
    in a NEW way!!!
    You are brave…
    i struggle seeing ex with gf when I am single…
    BUT you are seeing all the possibilities!!
    Enjoy, relax, groove on the movie!!

  51.  #51Azure Blu on May 2, 2015 at 10:36 am

    I meant… groove on the MUSIC!!! ;-))

  52.  #52Lovergirl on May 2, 2015 at 10:39 am

    Indigo (46/47)-

    Thank you and I feel you are right. It’s the intimacy/closeness that freaked him out because he’s not ready for a commitment.

    My question is this- will he ever be? If I keep using the tools and act sireny, is there any feasible chance things could turn around?

    I want so much for the answer to that to be YES. I adore this man. I feel like we keep having these moments that draw us closer and closer, but then…poof.

    Awhile back, after the first miscarriage, he had wanted to stop having sex. At that time he said that he felt the sex was making him “too attached” to me and making him “want a serious relationship” with me and it was freaking him out. He said he couldn’t view me “like a slut” like he does some of the women he’s met off the swinger site, that he just couldn’t look at me like that and it was confusing him.

    He just always seems to be teetering on the brink. I can handle it, I think, as long as I have some hope. Right now, I’m confused as to whether or not change is possible?

  53.  #53Indigo on May 2, 2015 at 10:49 am


    I can’t answer that, nor can any of the other sirens, in fact I don’t think even S can answer that, because chances are he doesn’t know.

    Enjoy your relationship with him if that is what you want, keep your boundaries, keep the door open for him if that is what you want… but pinning your hopes on him coming around is extremely dangerous. My recommendation is navigate this all with awareness – trust that you will know when to say enough is enough. The only person who can get S ready for commitment is S, and you may find you walking away from him one day helps him to realise he wants more. It may or it may not.

  54.  #54Lovergirl on May 2, 2015 at 10:53 am

    And he just texted me asking if I am going to this swinger party tonight. :p He can’t be seriously wondering because he knows I don’t go to parties by myself and haven’t been to any since one with him almost a year ago. Im not sure how to respond and I haven’t answered yet. :p

  55.  #55Linda on May 2, 2015 at 1:19 pm

    Lovergirl: I there are some things you have posted that spiked a great curiosity in me. I think I recall most of your story thru your posts. I realized that the only things we get to know about each other is what we choose to share out here. There is something you said specifically in a post a while back that really stuck out to me. I think is was along the lines of S asking you what you wanted or were looking for and you told him you did not know because you did not really know. I remember thinking to myself. I wonder how much of what she if wresting with would be a non issue if she knew.

    What if you pulled back and took some time to really focus on you, what you want and invest your energy into that for a season until you felt a great sense of wellness and balance.

    Just a thought I wanted to share.

  56.  #56Dominique on May 2, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    Olivia – 41 – There really isn’t an easy answer to this question though all of the recent talk about intimacy and withdrawal has me feeling inspired to write more on this. I will let everyone know when the article is ready, maybe this week.
    The short answer is no, there’s no sure fire way to know. Yet the deeper you are able to go within, the more you heal, and the more connected you feel to your man, the more easily and quickly will you be able to tune into the more subtle cues and clues. I hope this helps.

  57.  #57Kim on May 2, 2015 at 3:18 pm

    I don’t know where to start lol.
    My bf is totally rebelling, like a 5 year old. I know a move is stressful. My personality doesn’t help. I try to be thoughtful, understanding and not taking everything personally….
    Right now I feel like I am done with relationships and never ever want to get married.
    I had a great life, I was courted by him and others, I had invites, we used to get out and do stuff, he used to be loving and sweet, cook and do stuff around the house….so I overfunctioned and from yesterday onwards leaned waaay back.
    Result: dirty dishes everywhere
    No meals together
    Still not unpacked after 8 days.
    Sitti onthe couch in pyjamas playing computer games….and unpacking at the speed of a snail in-between.
    My condo is now 99.9% full of stuff…that is not mine..we are bursting at the seams. I did not know he was a hoarder, with 10 of everything, as he hid it really well (organizer).
    So yesterday we went out. I didn’t even have a drink so we can’t blame it on that…at one point, he starts talking about his ex and her thyroid problem…at length.
    I was fuming, but so proud of myself as I asked him calmly if we could please talk about something else as I do not want to talk about the ex…please. He said no, he wants to finish the story. I said ‘please’. He said, well ok, I will just say ‘my friend’ and carried on with the story saying ‘my friend’ instead of ‘my ex’. Whoa.
    I don’t recognize him.
    Then he brought up ild things we had arguments about, that are my personal conviction and beliefs and he said I must change them as I am ‘wrong’.
    I again tried to change the subject…he then ran off in a bad mood to the restroom, we were done eating/drinking and all had been paid, so I chose to wait at the front door as I was unsure whether he would come back to the table.
    After waiting 10 minutes he comes out and tells me how rude I am and I must apologize that I did not wait at the table for him!
    I tried to stop the arguing (again) and asked him to stop because I was convinced he would go to the front door and did not do it to annoy him…and he went on and on for 30 minutes about this.
    I am hoping this improves but I am only giving this experiment a week or so, because for some reason this is clearly not working for either of us. I had to spend all day outside my own condo today because my bf of 45 years had comedy central on and was playing computer games in his pujamas until 3pm…and meanwhile my place is almost unlivable due to his chaos and stuff…he did start to unpack some more but obviously going nowhere fast.
    I brought cakes as a peace offering but nothing makes any difference.
    Originally we had planned to do something tomorrow but I onky got a ‘maybe’ from him and I know better than to wait for those…so I am planning in doing my own thing.
    Just on another note, I think I fell victim to the ‘don’t wish for something you wish you hadn’t got’.
    I had a cool and carefree life before being exclusive and living with a man…Marriage? I can’t think of anything worse right now. If this ain’t changing, I am going to revert back to singlehood GLADLY.
    I think sometimes we are hunting after something and it seems so wonderful, but honestly, my life just totally changed for the worse. I don’t recognise the man anymore, and I don’t recognize me anymore, dying to get out of my own house.
    This sucks!
    Thank you for letting me vent..

  58.  #58Kim on May 2, 2015 at 3:22 pm

    Having said that, I did have a lovely aftrnoon at the beach reading and getting out of this chaos pit, so I am heaping plenty of love on me…and I had the first good night sleep since he moved in.
    I am not abandoning me or letting me sink into this chaos. I exercise, eat healthy and look after myself.
    I am letting him be also, not running after him or helping him anymore. He is an adult man and not a little sulky boy.

  59.  #59Kim on May 2, 2015 at 3:23 pm

    Tonight he has said he would cook for me and I feel happy about that….so let’s see what happens there.

  60.  #60Kim on May 2, 2015 at 3:25 pm

    PS: I just saw a wedding on my beach…before this move in, I was always longing for this and thinking how lovely it would be when it was finally my turn…LOL…I am now cured of that haha. I just looked at it and said ‘phew’..thank Goodness this isn’t me LOL.

  61.  #61Femininewoman on May 2, 2015 at 3:47 pm

    You know Kim that’s the reason why I respect men who say they don’t want to marry. I figure they have seen a lot and have good reasons for their choice.

  62.  #62Labbit on May 2, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    42 Lovergirl — I’m sorry but I’m rolling my eyes as I read your friend’s ‘assessment’ of what’s going on with S. The man is helps other men with their sex lives — OF COURSE he’s going to say something like that is going with S.

    The fact is you can’t know unless you ask S directly. Anything anyone else says is going to be a guess. I can think of so many times where girlfriends of my guy friends would ask me what they the guy was doing after a big fight or the guy’s sudden withdrawal…the girl usually assumed the worst; that he was out with someone else. But in most cases the guy was actually doing nothing or next to nothing, just taking some time for himself and relaxing.

    Our minds usually jump to the worst possible scenarios because they are survival machines. I completely agree with Indigo that S’s ACTIONS are showing you he’s not ready for a serious relationship, but I wouldn’t put any stock in the idea that he’s out ‘screwing someone new and exciting’. And even if he was, so what? He didn’t abandon you because you’re not in a committed relationship. When I read that you feel abandoned it makes me think that you’re thinking of yourself as a victim here when you are not one. That mentality only serves to weaken you, and it recreates the same kind of bad situation over and over again. You’ll keep putting yourself in situations where you feel abandoned and victimized, because you never look at your role in the situation. Argh, the victim mentally pisses me off — I used to fall into this so much myself and I know the destruction it brings. The victim mentality upsets me.

    PLEASE look at yourself here — not because he’s absolved of responsibility, but because you are the one seeking the change. This means the change has to start with you. And there is no guarantee he will change, even if you do. It’s not your responsibility to fix the relationship. It’s your responsibility to take care of you.

    You are in charge of how you let other people treat you. If you don’t like how someone else is treating you, as the feminine energy partner it’s up to you to stand up for yourself or leave. You don’t have to stick around in any situation that makes you feel bad. You don’t have to let anyone treat you badly. You are not trapped or stuck beyond your own making. It’s always your choice.

    As far as how to treat him when he comes back…do you see how if you go cold on him or tell him how hurt you are or snap at him, you are simply perpetuating the cycle over and over? He disappears…you want him to come back…he reappears…you snap at him…he backs away…you feel disconnected and this causes you to lash out…he disappears. Being warm and vulnerable isn’t about HIM at all, it’s not a strategy. It’s about how you are ALL THE TIME. You want to be warm and vulnerable because it is the complement to the masculine energy you are seeking in your life. Warmth, vulnerability, softness — these traits attract strong, nurturing men who are leaders. You need some masculine energy because no woman is 100% feminine and no man is 100% masculine, but the balance you seek is something like 80% feminine-20% masculine. And for a feminine woman, the 20% comes from boundaries and integrity — standing up for yourself, and taking care of yourself, and letting other people know through your actions and feeling messages how you will allow yourself to be treated.

    It’s not that you can’t tell S you feel mistrustful and abandoned. But neither of those things you say is really true anyway. You can tell him anything in a feeling message if he’s ready to catch it…he’s not. It’s a mistake to make him responsible for how you treat yourself. You’re mad and scared because you can’t trust yourself to take good care of yourself — you want S to swoop in and save you, make your decisions for you, and that ain’t gonna happen with any man. (Except maybe an abusive man and I KNOW you don’t want that.) You’re not feeling abandoned — your heart is literally hurting right now because it’s sounding every alarm it has, screaming at you to take better care of yourself.

    The balance is off between you and S right now, and that is because your INNER balance is off. S will never be able to fix that for you — no man could. It is only something you can fix yourself. I can tell you want to balance yourself, but you can’t keep looking to S to do it for you. He literally CAN’T.

  63.  #63Labbit on May 2, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    Lovergirl, what I would suggest to you to help balance yourself is to keep going out on dates. NOT to forget about S…NOT to find another relationship…just to practice being in your feminine energy and yet also setting boundaries for yourself in a low-stakes, no pressure situation. When you find that balance for yourself you become like a magnet for all the things you want in your life, I can’t even explain in words how strong it is.

    If you want to think of it as practice for when S comes back. That is what I did — I started dating so I could refine my skills for when an ex I was still in love with came back. I just so happened to meet TenderCD on one of those practice dates. πŸ™‚ I’m not saying this is what will happen for you, but nothing bad can come of it.

  64.  #64Kim on May 2, 2015 at 4:34 pm

    60 LOL…FW yes! I am getting there..

  65.  #65Labbit on May 2, 2015 at 4:35 pm

    Kim I realize this must feel very upsetting to you…but I wouldn’t worry too much about it all. I’m very happy to hear MoM is cooking for you tonight — YAY! As he should. πŸ™‚

    Keep your calmness, your softness, your surrender and femininity in the forefront. Remember that men project their upsets outward, this is all about him adjusting to living with someone and it’s stressful to him. It’s stressful to you too obviously but you handle it differently.

    His actions are showing he is very much with you. I wouldn’t take anything he says right now too seriously. He is unconsciously trying to provoke a reaction in you, because his subconscious is telling him he’d feel more comfortable if you were both upset.

    Luckily you know that isn’t true. πŸ™‚ YOU know that calmness and taking good care of yourself is the quickest path back to intimacy. You’re well on the road there…I am sure it must feel tough at times but you are killing it!!

  66.  #66Kim on May 2, 2015 at 5:10 pm

    64 Labbit <3
    Thank you for your encouraging words….

  67.  #67Alice on May 2, 2015 at 5:46 pm

    Labbit 62 – such beautiful and encouraging words πŸ™‚

    I am trying to be in my feminine energy… trying to be in any energy that is MINE – and not be caught up in any man’s energy – be it that of the man i was in love with, guy that i dated, or ass$*^% professor….

    I was in <3 with this guy for so long…. I finally feel like I am whole even without him, that life can be beautiful even without him or anyone else. I was in so much pain, so broken, so full of traumatic heartbreak, so much loss accumulated over the years… and maybe the biggest was losing him…

    he is wonderful, full of flaws but still wonderful. i wish him well and smile thinking of him.

    i feel the distance between us, like an ocean, an eternity. and yeah, it does make me a little sad, thinking we might die without ever being together. but still, that doesnt change what we shared, how lucky we were (are) to have known each other.

    it doesnt change how lucky i am to be me, to have this life, to have had this gift of living, without hunger, poverty and violence… every experience has been beautiful… the more fully i feel it, the more i stay with myself, the more i stay true to what i want for me, to who i want to BE, the more whole i feel, the faster i move forward, the more peace i have.

    i don't need to be anything but me or anywhere but here. i need only to be myself, love myself, a beautiful creation of a beautiful universe.

    happy international workers day, lovely sirens! sending my love to you, and so appreciative of this community.

  68.  #68Beloved on May 2, 2015 at 6:20 pm

    “He is unconsciously trying to provoke a reaction in you, because his subconscious is telling him he’d feel more comfortable if you were both upset.”

    I wonder if this was the sort of dynamic with RoomieJ.

    It feels eerie, like we pressed the reset button without the real issue being resolved, but really I don’t even know what the real issue is.
    I feel like I’m living in a house of crazy people! Maybe it’s the newness of us all living together.

    N forgot to leave a rent check yesterday, and I told TG she had just left for the weekend only about 10 minutes prior. He called and when she didn’t answer, he was saying he was thinking she was probably looking at the phone thinking, “F*ck you, TG! Sorry b@stard!”
    I laughed and said, she’s probably DRIVING. She JUST LEFT.

    I feel like I’ve gotten out of using FM’s at home, maybe I need to practice them more, and not try to correct his perception and say stuff like, ‘I feel surprised to hear that’ or something.

    With J, I felt SO caught off guard, I can see where FM’s might have been helpful and D@MMIT I felt so incredibly triggered and defensive I just couldn’t…even…omg.

  69.  #69Beloved on May 2, 2015 at 6:34 pm

    Kim – Wow, just, wow. That sounds so stressful. Sounds like a great time to book a spa retreat, lol.
    I feel curious how this works out, I’m learning so much from you and from Labbit’s responses.

  70.  #70Millie on May 2, 2015 at 7:37 pm

    Labbit 62— I LOVE this POST!!!!
    I feel like you are speaking to me also and I feel stronger reading it. Sometimes my mind goes astray…into “I miss him” land, into “should I text him?” land, and THANKFULLY I am pulling my energy out of it, but it still goes there. Reading your words over and over, I will keep reminding myself where my masculine energy needs to be: not fixing the relationship, but taking care of me! And I think while S may not be ready for a relationship, I am feeling that my guy was not as well. Not ready for the quality and depth of relationship that I want anyways. Thank you for your wise words!

  71.  #71Millie on May 2, 2015 at 7:38 pm

    Ohh I meant Labbit your post on 61!

  72.  #72Millie on May 2, 2015 at 7:43 pm

    Kim– Wow, I’m so surprised at hearing all of this, but I think moving in with someone changes things…like now you see all of them, exposed, including their habits. I often feel self-conscious of that myself because I like to come home and spend time on the computer, watch movies until I fall asleep….and I have some habits that I think, wow I probably can’t continue this if I had a man living with me. Even when my guy stayed over a lot, he would fall asleep much earlier than me due to his schedule. I feel like your experience is a great example of the “grass is greener” like you said about marriage. We spend all this time yearning to be close with a man and have him marry us and live with us, when the reality maybe isn’t so great…. It sounds like you are handling this like a True Siren! I hope with time and patience the dynamic will improve and you two will settle in together….or not.
    Much love!

  73.  #73Millie on May 2, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    Lovergirl 51– I just read what you wrote about S saying he feels confused about viewing you as are relationship material vs. a slut. Personally, I have an issue with the Madonna/whore complex that seems to be a psychological issue with men for centuries. I think it was established culturally a long time ago…..and I have yet to met a man who really expressed it in the way S did. This would set every red alarm off for me. It’s ok if it doesn’t for you…. but I wouldn’t want a man who sees such a dichotomy in women, I would want someone who sees me as a whole woman, sexually, and as an emotional partner. I think that his mentality says a whole lot about his thought patterns and how he was raised as a man. Its very interesting! What do you feel/think about this?

  74.  #74lovetodance on May 2, 2015 at 9:50 pm

    49 and 50 Azure….

    thank you dear siren….
    yes i do feel new….or have a different place in my heart opened…to me…to men also…

    i feel i am looking from a different place in myself…less fearful…like the lens have been cleaned…like my heart has been opened to what i really need….and how delectable i am….how delectable all women are!

    about the man who i was obsessed with…yes, i have been thinking of him so much knowing i most likely will see him…imagining how will i feel, will i make eye contact with him…will i look away will he look away..

    what i would like is to smile at him, forgive him, forgive myself, let him be…let myself be….i hope to not want him or want him to want me…i hope to see him as just another man who struggles with intimacy and realness and vulnerability as i do as a woman….

    i hope for my heart to stay open and clear and not impose suffering upon myself in any interactions there….or for that matter….anywhere!
    ahhhh i wish myself clarity and calm and joy!

    and altho you said originally ‘groove to the movie’ i think that is perfect…my movie…the movie i make of my time there….and everywhere…..

  75.  #75Indigo on May 3, 2015 at 12:51 am


    Gosh, that all sounds very difficult, and I fully understand how you feel. I cannot say I blame you for giving it a week as an experiment – I mean, how are you supposed to live your life amidst all that chaos, especially if you are not like that at all? The only thing that springs to mind for me in a situation like that is if all the unpacking and boxes are causing tension between us, to pay a third party (like a housekeeper or an organiser) to come in and take care of it all. As for him lazing around in his pyjamas playing PC games all day, maybe to negotiate for one or two date nights a week where the two of you spend quality time together and/or go out.

    I hear you about being careful what you wish for, and once you have the thing you want wondering why you wanted it. D and I tried living together 3 years ago and we were not remotely ready for it at that stage. It lasted 3 months – the first two months were idyllic and the last month unravelled terribly, with him acting out much as your man has done. It was horrible, and made me vow never to attempt it again until I was absolutely sure the relationship was ready for it.

  76.  #76Kim on May 3, 2015 at 5:50 am

    Indigo, yup…this experience has made me question if I ever want to live with a man, any man, ever again. Thing is, for many years due to job or whatever reason, I shared my living space with work colleagues or men (relationships)….so when I first had my own place, it was like: HALLELUJAH!
    I just love the quiet, cleanliness and solitude…but thought that if I want to have a relationship, the logical stage would be this. Lol.
    Maybe I just have to get used to not being alone….but I liked it, and just realized how much I liked it lol.
    In other news, he did cook for me last night and brought me flowers which is something he very rarely does (the flowers)….so at least now I know he is trying. We did have a massive argument and he screamed at me last night, which almost had me throw him out there and then (this never happened before, ever), but he did apologize after.
    Maybe I am just going to be one of those old cat ladies…lol..right now it sounds very appealing..

  77.  #77Linda on May 3, 2015 at 6:49 am


    It looks like you and I had the same notion to share with Lovergirl only mine was much shorter but the same subject.

    There is absolutely no substitute for personal balance and wellness inside ourselves. It is key!

  78.  #78Linda on May 3, 2015 at 7:16 am

    Kim. My heart goes out to you. The move in and all you are experiencing now. I have experienced what you are right now. It felt terrible. Everything you are writing about brings back memories. I certainly learned what I will never invite back into my life ever again thru it. I can also say that I would not have learned what I did without the experience so for that I am very glad.

    Sending you a great big hug!

  79.  #79IamHis on May 3, 2015 at 7:51 am

    Kim, I’m so sorry you feel let down by your new living situation.

    Studies have shown that divorce rates are higher when married couples live together prior to marriage.

    I know that is not especially helpful right now given your situation, but I just don’t want you to let one bad experience cause you to never live with a man again. Sending you love & patience!

  80.  #80Millie on May 3, 2015 at 8:02 am

    I have been reading Leigha Lake’s “Bring him back” blueprint and in one chapter she talks about the lighthouse tool. How women need to stand talk and strong, rooted in the earth and shining bright like a lighthouse so that ships can find their way to shore. Very sireny of course but the imagery works very well to me. Some ships do not come to shore but the lighthouse does move, to try to make them see the light. If she moves, the ships that do want to come to shore cannot find their way. This is a great tool I will think of often.

  81.  #81Millie on May 3, 2015 at 8:05 am

    Oops the lighthouse **does not move**

  82.  #82IamHis on May 3, 2015 at 8:19 am

    In my world, I messed up at work this week in multiple, absolutely mortifying ways. Broke things, lost my temper, repeatedly messed up.

    In front of TT. Who just swooped in and saved the day for me. I felt so embarrassed I could barely look at him.

    By the end of the shift, I finally told my older female coworker, who I feel so safe with, one of the reasons I was so upset, because an elderly close family member has been dying.

    I was so emotional the whole shift it was like my mind turned off & I honestly couldn’t function. Yeah. Embarrassing.

    I was crying by the end of the shift. I could tell TT was worried about me.

    He was ready to go & said goodbye to everyone, & I was still not ready. He kept lingering. He forgot something. We Walked To The Back of the Building together along with another guy. I looked up at him, tears still streaming down my face, & he wouldn’t look at me.

  83.  #83Olivia on May 3, 2015 at 8:37 am

    @Dominique -thanks for your comment and looking forward to your next article – I really appreciate the extent to which you share your personal experiences and personal thoughts!

  84.  #84Lovergirl on May 3, 2015 at 9:42 am

    I completely lost it with S last night. He called wanting to talk about how he was going to this swinger party where they were showing the fight on pay per view. His excuse for calling was supposedly to ask me if I was going.

    He KNOWS I would never go to a swinger party by myself. He also knows I would especially not go to THIS party because it was thrown by a guy that has acted creepy and stalkerish towards me (and we also know a woman that had to get a restraining order against him).

    He was telling me how “several people” had asked him to come and that there were people I knew on the guest list. This all felt very threatening since he wasn’t asking me to come with him. It felt like he was bragging and trying to rub in my face that he would be sleeping with other women that night.

    I at first was able to react with some feeling messages. I told him it felt confusing talking to him, that I felt sick hearing about his plans to go to the swinger party and sort of abandoned after the previous weekend. Then I said honestly, it makes me feel like sh!t.

    He told me to stop, that I was getting angry for no reason. I said I don’t want to hear about your plans to f**k people, especially when I haven’t heard from you in almost a week, it feels awful. I said I felt used and betrayed.

    He apologized and said he wasn’t intending to be rude or start trouble with me. I said I feel so confused. Last week I felt so happy and like we had this wonderful time together. Then I felt super vulnerable after you called and seemed angry about possible pregnancy and disappeared. Now I feel all twisted up having to think about you going to a swinger party. I don’t want to feel like this.

    He called again and said that he wasn’t trying to rub it in my face. That he had been calling to partly let me know that he got angry on the phone because he was having a bad day that day and took it out on me. He claimed that me saying I felt “used” was disrespectful and that he would never use me. He said you don’t have to think about the swinger party, I’m mainly just going to watch the fight.

    I said come on, I am not retarded. You aren’t going to a swinger party just to watch a fight and now I can’t not think about it. He said he didn’t even know if he was going to play with anyone there, that maybe things would get popping off later and maybe they wouldn’t. He made some comment about needing a plan B and I got angry and said I will never be your plan B for something like that. He said he didn’t mean ME and was trying to calm me down.

    I was okay for a bit, but then I went to look at the list of people, since he had told me some people I knew would be going. On it were at least two married women that he has had sex with repeatedly. This is when I completely lost it.

    I said you lied to me! You told me you didn’t know if you were going to play but you knew these women were going to be there! I told him I don’t trust him anymore, that he is a liar. He said stop being overly dramatic that he didn’t say he wasn’t going to play. I told him to f*** off, that I have lost respect for him.

    It just went downhill from there. I said some horrible things, and insulted him and the women. I said pretty much everything I know I shouldn’t. I was full of anxiety about him being there and in a jealous rage.

    He said you are being nasty and hurtful, this is not like you. I said you mean like you are being nasty and hurtful to me? Imagine that. He again said he wasn’t trying to rub it in my face and I said bullsh!t because that is exactly what you did!

    I said I can’t handle this, its hurting me, I’m saying horrible things, if you don’t want a real relationship with me, then anything else hurts. He said ok, I’m sorry, that isn’t an option. I said I can’t handle feeling unloved and I need to stick with men that are okay with showing they care. He said I know, you want to find a real relationship.

    I was like “I don’t know if I want that or not, but I know I can’t handle this half a$$ed stuff with YOU because my feelings go way deeper than that. I can’t just be another person you f***. I need reciprocation and my feelings cared about. I’m not okay with being second to other women. That feels sh!tty and humiliating.” I said I didn’t really care about whether or not something leads to marriage right now but I need to know I’m first in someone’s heart. He didn’t answer right away and I started to get more upset.

    I just lost control. He kept trying to get me to calm down. He was like just chill, you’re being irrational, hysterical, I’m just here to watch the fight. He said not that it matters but there is hardly even anyone here, but I don’t have to explain that to you.

    I said yeah but I am sure they will be there later. If I knew something like this was distressing YOU I would leave. I said it felt like it was all a slap in the face after the week before. Of course, he wasn’t going to leave because he didn’t want to be told what to do. He later said he got sick though and ended up leaving the party.

    I don’t know though. I said so many wrong things and was pretty awful. All the anxiety and nasty voices and jealousy and fear just got the best of me and it all came out in a horrible episode of drama. :/

  85.  #85Millie on May 3, 2015 at 10:00 am

    (((Lovergirl))))) what a night, I’m so sorry you felt so awful. πŸ™

  86.  #86HeartBeat on May 3, 2015 at 10:02 am

    I want to curl up against mama siren’s skirt and have a good cry and a cuddle.
    I feel heavy and gluggy
    I feel exposed and frightened
    Feeling genuinely attracted to a man..
    Feeling GOOD around a man, fluttering belly, body filled with energetic pressure..Ugh this is new..
    Feeling a bit raw and overwhelmed, mean voice is making some noise. I feel trembly and a bit sick..
    Ugh, baby steps..

  87.  #87HeartBeat on May 3, 2015 at 10:07 am

    I hope you’re alright, god what a night.

  88.  #88jessie1000 on May 3, 2015 at 10:10 am

    The only people who dont live together before marriage are probably born again christians or some kind of religious folks who may not get divorced because of god not because of relationship issues….
    Living together before marriage may not be acceptable in older generations either….
    Statistics based on non religious or 20 to 30 year olds are probably undefinable as it is the custom nowadays for youth….they live together after a week of sex and sort it all out as they go along…lol
    Just saying

  89.  #89jessie1000 on May 3, 2015 at 10:11 am

    Lovergirl….good for you for sharing …although I find it easy to talk when its over and Im pissed rather than when its starting and its going good
    wierd eh?
    ALways need lots of practice…ur dude sounds toxic, block his communication concentrate on someone good for your soul!

  90.  #90Millie on May 3, 2015 at 10:16 am

    I agree that Spirit sounds toxic, I hope you are taking good care of yourself today Lovergirl.

  91.  #91Linda on May 3, 2015 at 1:11 pm

    Lovergirl. Sometimes being authentic feels messy. So what !! … you were upset and he knows without a shadow of a doubt how you felt. Good for you! I certainly would not be beating myself up about being gut level honest with someone. Now that you started.. I hope that you continue to do what is good for you.

  92.  #92Femininewoman on May 3, 2015 at 2:43 pm

    Millie Sprit is Azure’s guy

  93.  #93Labbit on May 3, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    Alice & Millie I am glad my post struck a chord with you. πŸ™‚

    75 Linda — Ha! Well I am a big fan of talking…if you have something to say I would encourage you to share it, even if you feel it might be repetitive, because it might hit the recipient in a different, beneficial way.

  94.  #94Labbit on May 3, 2015 at 4:21 pm

    Lovergirl if someone said to me what you said to S, and what he responded in return to you, I would feel so icky and broken and unworthy and I would want to run as far away from that person as possible. It feels toxic, like addiction to drama.

  95.  #95Sophie on May 3, 2015 at 5:51 pm

    Rant: Last day in city and long flight ahead. I feel ugh about going back but can pull myself up and turn it around. I feel very tired as my sleep has been messed for months so much of the negativity comes from there.

    Other stuff needs processing. Boy energy needs to leap into a lot of doing (once I’ve rested and ‘been). I feel determined to get my boy energy to work for me to create a queendom I feel happy living in and only the most special of men will be able to enter.

    Practice, practice, practice.

    Am feeling really pissed with citycd as he’s not been in touch and left me to my own devices. I’ve done my best to pull my energy out of there and feel really grateful as I met a lovely woman to spend time with and explored some sanctuaries for myself, including a secret garden by a pool.

    Still…not even say goodbye? I feel sad and angry about that. I also know I don’t know why, or anything, or anything and all I can do is just focus as much as possible on me.

    My mind is doing all the stuff of making excuses for him, and what if and trying to justify contacting him and blah blah but tell me sirens not to – please! I don’t have to do I! He knows what to do…IF HE WANTED TO for whatever reason right now he doesn’t.

    I feel blergh.I want someone to say bye to me. No I want him to say bye to me. Or, all the other men who ‘have been interested at the time’ but who now are not…not a peep…but who knows about the future…and who knows about the weeding I am doing and the fertile ground I am preparing!

    And I am focusing on the negative and there have been so many evidences of male energy coming forward but none that has been consistent consistent consistent – is that me? And my inconsistency?

    Anyway, lots of hours by plane to reflect POSITIVELY and lots of love waiting for me at the other end.

    I can’t wait for your article Dominique – sounds like I need it too!

    Love to you all

  96.  #96Zia on May 3, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    Lovergirl – BIG HUGS!! Nothing wrong with being raw and messy – but this is now a perfect opportunity to turn inwards and really look at what made you so angry and upset and frustrated and feel hurt and how you can nuture and give yourself all the love you need xx

  97.  #97Millie on May 3, 2015 at 7:32 pm

    Oh oops, sorry Azure and Lovergirl!!! I got S and Spirit confused :/

  98.  #98Indigo on May 3, 2015 at 9:09 pm

    Sorry Lovergirl, this man cannot give you what you want. You think you can handle that because you feel that having him in your life on these terms is better than not having him at all, but you can’t. And you shouldn’t have to. The very nature of your “relationship” with S means that he is going to make you feel badly on a regular basis. I don’t believe this is what you want deep down.

    And your anger towards him is your inner soul giving you the fuel to turn away from him and towards other things.

  99.  #99Beloved on May 3, 2015 at 9:44 pm

    o m g
    I just realized, just this second, that the reason I feel so pist off and triggered with people who get in “my” way, is because I’m pist at myself for getting in my own way.
    I’ve been projecting it on “other”.

    I also realized in a meditation yesterday, that the voice in my head screaming at my roomie that “it’s not all about youuuuu!!” was my inner voice screaming at me, that her stuff isn’t about me.

    I really need to listen more carefully to myself!

  100.  #100Beloved on May 3, 2015 at 10:03 pm


    It is SO important to take extra good care of yourself right now. When I have felt really triggered with abandonment pain, I like to take a hot bath with about a pound of epsom salt and ridiculous amounts of bubbles.

  101.  #101Millie on May 3, 2015 at 10:21 pm

    I feel broken. Not because of the man… But because I’m going though my own inner battle separately from him. Maybe that’s why he left…. I’m unhappy in my job. The past few months my job had broken me. I don’t feel creative anymore, my juice is gone. I’m trying to apply to other jobs but I have no reserve, I have no juice to give. I don’t feel confident in my creative ability because it’s missing. I keep procrastinating to the point where I just want to withdraw my candidacy… But then I feel like I’m giving up, settling and staying in a job I’m over with. I need a break. But then I feel like a bratty child complaining about her amazing job and amazing opportunities that other people don’t have and I can’t seem to ride to. I’m tired. I’m worn out. My emotions are drained when it comes to work. I can’t do it anymore. But if I take a break… I’ll have no money so I can’t afford to so that. I’m usually a person that rises to the occasion, that can defeat anything and push through. I come through with something brilliant… And I feel like I can’t anymore. No wonder he left me…. If this is how I feel about myself and my job. I feel trapped because I can’t just do it. I try but I don’t feel connected to my work, I don’t enjoy it anymore… It feels like pulling teeth to draw any once of creativity from me. What does a designer do when she feels burned out? With no time to replenish herself…. My trip was great but I was working most of the time then flying back and forth over the weekend and have to back to work on Monday. My emotions are so raw and weepy. I don’t know if I want this career anymore. But deep down I know I’m good at it and I can do anything… I just need a break and then I feel better. But the. I feel guilty asking for time off when so many people quit at our office and they are relying on me so much. The company isn’t doing well… And I can’t fix it… And I can’t leave… Because I can’t step up and do what I need to do. Because my juice isn’t there. My confidence isn’t there. My desire isn’t there. I miss loving my job. I love designing… I just dont know when that feeling is going to come back. I have to somehow be able to handle life and fuel my creative juice at full throttle, like an open carburetor. I have to find a way to revive myself in 24 hours. In 48 hours. But then I have to use my weekend to work in my potential job projects. I don’t want to have a victim attitude or a woe is me attitude. I have everything, there’s no need for me to feel this way and yet I do. No wonder he left me…. My inner light is flickering… But isn’t that a part of life? It can’t always be on, be perfect, be figured out.

  102.  #102Millie on May 3, 2015 at 11:31 pm

    I decided to ask for time off at work. Whether it’s a good time or not, I need to take care of myself and speak up… So we will see how it goes tmrw.

  103.  #103Victoria on May 4, 2015 at 1:35 am

    Are you around? How are you doing?
    F. is away for a few days, but has been wonderful in keeping contact. Still, I am a bit bored. I am reading the blog, and being tempted to write to some of the posters, but then deciding not to, as I see I am about to give advice and we should not do that.
    I read an interesting book over the weekend, which says that the opposite of happiness is not sadness or unhappyness, it is boredom. I need to focus on creating my own excitement.

  104.  #104Labbit on May 4, 2015 at 3:59 am


    He didn’t leave you because of your struggles at work. He didn’t leave you AT ALL. The relationship simply didn’t work, and most likely it’s something having to do with HIM and not being ready for a commitment. That has ZERO to do with you and to punish yourself over it is counterproductive and causes you unnecessary pain. It’s very dangerous to look for false causes.

    You are right that your light won’t always be bright, you won’t be perfect, you’ll go through ebbs and flow. Seek to attract the man who will support you through all of these things, who loves you no matter what else is going on in your life. Do you see that that is what you deserve? Nothing less?

  105.  #105Millie on May 4, 2015 at 6:05 am

    Dear Labbitt,

    Yes I do see that. I do see that I deserve so much more…

  106.  #106Lovergirl on May 4, 2015 at 7:47 am

    Thanks Millie, Heartbeat, Jessie. I was thinking last night about how “toxic” the behavior was, on both our parts, in some ways, but really it was mostly me. I feel sick at some of the awful things I said. I was very, very triggered. Thankfully, the storm has blown over. We talked it out and I am so relieved. It took a while, but I feel safe in that S didn’t completely run away from me after I flipped on him. I’m not sure that S or I are really “toxic” so much as we both have some deep triggers. Now that I’m calmer, I can see many, many ways that I went overboard and misinterpreted his behavior as trying to hurt me when it wasn’t.

  107.  #107Lovergirl on May 4, 2015 at 8:04 am

    Linda and Labbit- Yes, I was gut level honest to a point. Then it turned to lashing out and trying to hurt him the way I was hurting, and for that I feel awful. If I had stopped at the gut level honesty, it would have been okay, but I didn’t.

    It felt very yucky and toxic and like the both of us have tried to completely sabotage the closeness we had last week. I said to S, I feel like this is really unhealthy and we are both having some intimacy issues.

    I feel we both have some addiction to drama. We both grew up in homes where there was a lot of fighting and have seen some pretty scary stuff. I’m afraid either of us would have that tendency in any relationship. The good thing with him, is that he is very willing to communicate about whatever triggers we are facing.

    Right now, I feel very safe. I did everything possible to push him away and he came back very forgiving and understanding and explained himself and his thoughts and motives.

  108.  #108Indigo on May 4, 2015 at 8:06 am

    Hi Victoria,

    I was not around earlier – hectic day at work – well not hectic, busy, in a good way.

    I feel so glad your F is keeping in contact while he is away – such a nice feeling.

    As far as boredom goes – I often wonder which of us has it worse – extroverts who are easily bored and need to keep creating their own stimulation and excitement, or introverts who love the stuff that would typically be considered “boring” and need to be dragged out of the house. I suppose each is beautiful in its own way. That said – I agree, restlessness is a horrible feeling. I find I love to have a project I can throw myself into – whether it’s a project at work, or decorating my flat, finishing a particular book… heading for a goal is a cure for boredom for me πŸ™‚

  109.  #109Victoria on May 4, 2015 at 8:10 am

    You are very generous and forgiving and it is very well that you feel like you have talked it over and the storm is over.
    Howver, he keeps repeating that he does not want a real relationship with you, and I don’t know where this puts you. Unless you have a relationship, you have no right to demand that he sleeps with you only. Are you asking him to just not tell you when he does that?

  110.  #110Lovergirl on May 4, 2015 at 8:12 am

    Zia and Indigo-

    Thank you. This is giving me the opportunity to look inward for sure. S helped me see a lot of things last night when we talked. He’s not relationship ready with me but I’m not sure its as cut and dry as it seems either.

    Last night, after a LOT of talking and texting, I said to him “thank you for not hating me after all this”. His response was “I don’t hate you Lovergirl. You’re just very passionate. And you are dead wrong…you ARE special to me…you are probably the woman I should truly be with if I just let myself”

  111.  #111Victoria on May 4, 2015 at 8:15 am

    It is hard to tell which is worse, but also, you kind of can’t change being what you are in terms of temperament.
    By the way, I saw my best friend this weekend – she is very introvert, she is the in to my yan, I feel so good with her, probably men feel this good with a type B woman, can’t blame them for that, not sure what this leaves for me, except for really accepting that the best thing for me is a type B man. I wish he could come back sooner πŸ™‚

  112.  #112Indigo on May 4, 2015 at 8:16 am

    Lovergirl 105,

    I have the same issue – I also grew up in what was more or less a warzone, with lots and lots of fighting between my parents and stepparents. So that tendency is in me too, although I have done a huge amount of work to resolve a lot of it. But some of it is still there, and the trigger is still there. It scares me. I dream of having a deeply calm, peaceful, even-keel relationship, and I worry intensely about whether an unconscious trigger of mine will sabotage it.

  113.  #113Indigo on May 4, 2015 at 8:28 am

    Millie 100,

    I feel so glad you asked for time off work. Our own wellbeing, whether physical or emotional, always comes first.

    I used to be the kind of person who would never take time off work – even half an hour – even if I felt like I was physically or emotionally dying on the inside. I’ve learned to slow things down a bit now. I’ve realised that almost 100% of the time I am being harder on myself than I need to be, and pushing myself when there is really no need. Now, I take that inner cue from myself when it’s telling me that it’s all too much, and I listen to her.

  114.  #114Lovergirl on May 4, 2015 at 8:29 am

    Victoria 107- I haven’t had time to type out some of the stuff we talked about yet but hopefully will get to it. I feel like much of what sent me into a tailspin the other night was self inflicted. S and I have never been in a relationship where we couldn’t have sex with others.

    It was more the feeling of abandonment inside me than anything, after being close with him again. He said his original reason for calling me is that he was thinking of bringing me with him to the party, but when I reacted negatively he didn’t think it was a good idea to ask. I believe him because it DID kind of seem like that was his intent but then he didn’t invite me and I felt slighted.

    As far as him lying to me, he pointed out where that was me twisting what he said and really he is right. He also said things aren’t always what they seem and neither of those women were at the party. One of them, her husband had signed up and he came by himself, then cornered S to tell him his wife had just left him that day and moved in with another man.

    If they had been at the party, and he had been feeling well (he ended up sick and throwing up with a migraine) he may have played with them, but may have not. He had said himself “maybe if things get popping off”. I know he genuinely did want to be around people to watch the fight, he’s very much an extrovert that needs to be around others for stuff like that. I only really flipped out after I saw WHO was going to be there and that was definitely jealousy talking.

    I wish I had more time right now but gotta run and maybe I can tell you all more later.

  115.  #115Labbit on May 4, 2015 at 8:38 am

    Lovergirl I am glad that you see where it went too far, on both parts. I do understand all too well the addiction to drama. For a long time I was all about getting whatever attention I could from a man — didn’t matter whether it was positive or negative.

    On the parents arguing, not to compare my experience but I realize now as an adult…the arguments my parents had that seemed so traumatic to me as a small child were just normal arguments and I didn’t know that because I had no frame of reference. Again that’s not to say that what anyone else here experienced WASN’T traumatic. There are lots of automatic behaviors within myself that I’m working to unwind with time, patience and love towards myself. This will go on for my whole life — it’s part of the journey for me. I’m not trying to get to perfect because I know that’s impossible but I am always interested in making things better, easier for myself.

    It became important to me as an adult to have a relationship where I can disagree, even argue if necessary, without it turning into a dramatic scene. It was very, VERY hard to break this habit. Although now I like to think of it as easy, because I prefer thinking of it as simple rather than difficult. πŸ™‚

    It’s funny how as children we learn these complex, intricate tasks, habits and behaviors and it’s considered normal but then as adults we want everyone else to change while we stay exactly as we are. I am as guilty of this as anyone!! I have learned though that my past, my upbringing, my whatever doesn’t define me, and I can always learn new tricks if I really want to. πŸ˜‰

  116.  #116Azure Blu on May 4, 2015 at 9:30 am

    Wondering how Andrea, Gemini G. and Victoria are doing?
    Miss you Sirens… hope all is well…

  117.  #117Labbit on May 4, 2015 at 9:43 am

    103 Millie — Cool. πŸ™‚

    You are doing great! Whenever a relationship ends there are bound to be unresolved feelings, feelings that take time to process. Even if you’d been the one to end the relationship you’d undoubtedly still feel off. This is all totally normal! From what I’ve seen here it looks like you are handling yourself in a healthy, positive way. HUGS to you!! It feels difficult I am sure and you are taking care of yourself well. This sends a message to the Universe to send a man who will take care of you just as well, if not better…

  118.  #118Tereana on May 4, 2015 at 10:33 am

    I like this post. To me, it’s all about ignoring the “nasty voices” – inside and out. I could use some more work in this area…

  119.  #119Tereana on May 4, 2015 at 10:43 am

    Now, how about this? I feel like I keep going back and forth. Up and down. One minute, I feel so great
    about V, when he’s coming toward me. He sent me a bunch of cute messages I woke up to on my birthday. But then he practically disappeared over the weekend. He sent a few hellos. And he was clear that we would be busy with his family. But he’s not even contacted me since he got home (as in, back to the place in India where he can actually call me from).

    I feel terrible, probably bc I have some expectation he will contact me. Some desire to hear from him. I have communicated my desires PLENTY. And today I woke up thinking – this is it. I have to walk away from this.

    But then I coudn’t find the words. Instead, I started praising him and telling him the things I liked. He liked that. But he hasn’t kept up the conversation. I really and truly feel that I am not a priority in his life. And this could be because I have some insecurity. But it’s also based on his actions and how I feel about him contacting me or not contacting me. It’s not consistent. And he tells me important, but I don’t feel that way.

    I want to ask, who do I beloeve? My gut feeling or his words?

    My gut feeling, obviously.

    But how do I take action on this? I can’t walk away unless I am truly, totally, 100% sure I’ll be ok if he doesn’t follow me. Ok the other hand, I don’t want to sign up for a lifetime of little or no contact, low prioritization pf me and my needs, or to reward bad behavior.

    I’m taking my time so that I don’t make a hasty decision. But really I’ve been feeling like this for a while. It feels like the powerful thing to do is walk away….

  120.  #120Azure Blu on May 4, 2015 at 11:00 am

    I feel so bad that you are feeling anxious about V’s contact…
    Have you read Dominique’s thoughts on long distant relationship?
    Rori also has some archived posts on this subject…

    Honestly, from what you have shared here… It sounds like he is actually reciprocating quite a bit…

    When he Says he can’t talk to you on the weekend
    What i have been learning,,, is to respect what HE is telling you…
    It makes such a BIG change in men when WE respect and STOP nit picking!!!
    And be able to take NO for the answer… AND stay warm when HE does come forward!!

  121.  #121Indigo on May 4, 2015 at 11:57 am

    In my case, I had a chance to consider that it might be something deeper than just his lack of contact.

    Obviously we all want to receive regular contact from our man and this is very normal and understandable… but from my own point of view, I’ve found that my responses/feelings towards these sorts of situations tell me a lot about what’s going on with me. The trigger is a really good opportunity to examine how you feel about other things.

    I have just been through this myself, and I can share my own experience because it brought up a few things for me that were about far more and went far deeper than just not hearing from him for a couple of days. My abandonment fears. My fear of not being taken seriously and being invisible. My anger and frustration at certain things where trust and forward movement are lacking. My inherent horror of drama and my fear of creating it in a relationship. It was a new opportunity to turn inward and listen to myself, to what my inner self was wanting to say to me. It was a great opportunity also to turn to myself and remind myself how strong I am, and that I CAN be there for myself. These opportunities are so valuable, no matter what the outcome with a man.

  122.  #122Azure Blu on May 4, 2015 at 12:12 pm

    Indigo #119
    Ahhh… lovely Siren…
    So beautiful how you are loving you…
    listening to YOU …
    Thank you for sharing your journey..
    VERY inspiring
    “These opportunities are so valuable, no matter what the outcome with a man.”!!!

  123.  #123Tereana on May 4, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    AzureBlu – THANK You!!

    I so needed some outside perspective on that. Because I do feel myself in a position of almost becoming that nitpicky person that nobody likes. So my response in my mind was that in order to avoid that, I need to walk away.

    And I needed the perspective check because my gut can sometimes be wrong – but only when it’s fear masquerading as my “gut” instinct. And it is VERY convincing. I was ready to walk away from the whole thing this morning. I’m just glad I didn’t because these things can’t always be undone.

    My fear is so sneaky, too! She used to be loud and dramatic. But I think she knows I’ve caught onto her. She was going to try something more level-headed this time – but fear-based nonetheless.

    And what she does is try to “protect” me by keeping me single and/or getting me out of potentially beneficial and long-lasting relationships. And she’ll use any means necessary….

    I’m really glad you pointed out that he appears to be reciprocating. And also that if I want to be s good partner, listening to his limitations and accepting them is part of the deal – as it is for him.

    I also got some good perspective at work, too. I feel a little more able to get things from how they might feel I’m his shoes. And this let’s me be a bit more compassionate, and have less fear.

    The main fear, of course, is that if I don’t hear from him in a long time, it means he doesn’t like me. And that’s probably the real reason I was going to walk away – out and out fear. Leave before the rejection can take place.

    Thank you again, beautiful siren!!

  124.  #124Tereana on May 4, 2015 at 3:50 pm

    Whoa…AzureBlu. THANK YOU!!! I had this really lovely response written out, and then it just proofed.

    But basically, thank you for the perspective check. I really needed that…:)

  125.  #125Lovergirl on May 4, 2015 at 5:07 pm

    Indigo 110-

    Yes, I had a really rough environment growing up and I was so afraid of a violent man, or even hearing a man raise his voice that I went to the extreme when I married my ex- husband, who seemed very passive natured and “nice”.

    On the plus side, for most of our marriage there was very little arguing or fighting and things were calm. My triggers weren’t being brought up (at least not during our marriage, I did have some issues with jealousy while we were dating). Yet, there was no real connection between us. We were basically platonic roommates and never really discussed anything on more than a surface level.

    As a result, even after 15 years together (total) we barely knew each other. I felt like I’d turned into someone I’m not too, because I was pretty much forced into the masculine role of the relationship, initiating sex (or at least trying to and being rejected), running everything because he wasn’t interested in stepping up to the plate. I found it very frustrating because by nature I am not like that at all. I’m ten times happier being the more submissive partner.

    Anyway, maybe it was the right thing for me at the time. I met him when I was 18 and barely an adult, I wasn’t ready to confront all my fears. Now, I can hope that I am more mature and more ready to handle what I couldn’t back then.

  126.  #126Lovergirl on May 4, 2015 at 5:36 pm

    Labbit 113-

    Yes, in so many ways I have fought and overcome the negative effects of my childhood. I’m not going to stop now, there will always be new things to learn. My biggest issue, I think, underlying it all, is the fear of abandonment. That is what brings on extreme anxiety and intimacy issues as well.

  127.  #127Lovergirl on May 4, 2015 at 6:01 pm

    I’m still a little confused as to where things are with S. We had pretty much decided not to be friends or lovers, then ended up getting in this intimate discussion afterwards where he made the comments about me being special to him and probably the woman he should truly be with if he just let himself. We both said nice things about each other and then I was like “now that we are probably both intimacy overloaded, goodnight, lol” he said goodnight.

    I think I am just going to treat it as though we are keeping that decision. I did text him today though which may have been a mistake, but I couldn’t resist. I was on a nature walk with my kids and saw this sign that I knew would make him laugh, because of something silly he was doing with me one day after we had sex. So I took a picture and sent it.

    I debated about it being leaning forward and all that but thought to myself, come on I can’t be THAT much of a stickler about it. He asked where I was and just commented that it was a nice day to be outside. I said yeah its a cool place waterfalls, trails, a cave, etc. and we didn’t talk any further. I don’t want to contact him further unless he calls or texts me, except maybe to say happy birthday in a couple weeks.

    All that talking to S though, gosh, it just serves as a reminder to me of how much BETTER he is at communicating than any other man I’ve ever met in my life. Other men would run from conflict, or retaliate or not really listen to me. S has always taken the time to really act like he cares. Maybe not right in the moment but after he’s had some time to think.

    The guy from Chicago, sometimes I feel frustrated with him because when I am talking he doesn’t really seem to be paying attention. That was a huge pet peeve with my ex husband too. I felt unheard and like he dismissed my thoughts or feelings as unimportant. S never, ever does that to me. Even just an ordinary conversation, if I am talking he will go so far as to pause the tv and give me his full attention. Maybe I can thank his past couple of ex girlfriends, that both made him go to couples counseling, but in that way he’s amazing. I don’t think I could ever settle for a man who DIDN’T do that now.

  128.  #128Indigo on May 4, 2015 at 9:10 pm

    Azure Blu πŸ™‚

    Lovergirl – I relate to so much of what you are saying. The fear of abandonment is what brings on the most extreme anxiety, and unwinding this fear, and unwinding what I do when it takes hold of me, and soothing myself, has been the most challenging task of my life. But I am making little bits of progress all the time, and that feels encouraging.

    Also, as a reaction to my childhood I also ended up marrying young, a guy whom I had known since I was 16. He was such a good guy and so solid and stable, it was all I craved at that young, young age. We were together 9 years or so. Of course as I grew and got stronger I also noticed how I felt like a little girl around him and he didn’t take me seriously and I couldn’t continue, but I truly believe for that time in my life it was a good, healing place for me. I think now I’ve gone the other way and act super independent and like I don’t need anyone, and the challenge now is for me to be vulnerable.

  129.  #129Lovergirl on May 5, 2015 at 9:47 am

    Indigo (125)-

    From your posts I am very impressed with how far you seem to have come. Being vulnerable IS scary, but I guess it’s what draws men in as well. Like I posted on the other thread just now, I had an example of that being the better response to S recently. It’s reaffirming to me to see that.

  130.  #130Rori Raye on May 5, 2015 at 3:09 pm

    Catherine – Thank you! And the same to ALL of us who ever turn OURSELVES into villains (sometimes I don’t even notice I’m doing it to myself until I read a character in a book or see one on TV and instantly “dislike” or “judge” her – then I can SEE what I’m “disliking” and “judging” in myself….Love, Rori