Love Life Turnaround – Leaving the Toxic Dump Behind

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horsewomanThis was such a powerful comment from Turtle Girl – I decided to turn it into a guest post:

“Hi ladies-
This is my first post and I only just found this site a week or so ago and I have been reading everything I have times for and it is really incredible stuff. I commend all of you for your bravery and tenacious spirit even in the face of some very painful emotions. Isn’t it funny how our emotions cause commotion and what we really often need is locomotion?

I can really empathize with many of the stories I have read here. I recently broke up with a very toxic man. He had the tri fecta of horribleness –

1) Toxic -selfish, self centered, passive aggressive, narcissistic, used emotional blackmail, feelings not allowed, lier, his needs first and foremost. Icky!

2) He was the girl -I had to drive to see him, I ran his errands, met him at the restaurant, fixed his health, took his cats to the vet and then brought them home to him, etc.. etc.. etc….all the while he doled out a few crumbs.

3) He was/is a boy-man. – His house looked like a fourteen year old boy’s really messy disgusting room, he rode a big motorcycle and was into skulls and vampire symbols, he was only interested in having “fun” and his favorite role model was Charlie in two and 1/2 men. (translation-I am a selfish, immature self centered cad and am using you for whatever it is you will do FOR ME)

And I WAS THERE stuffing my real feelings all the while.

WTF? Yes, ladies-his behavior was deplorable. Not defending him. But I should have walked away from day one. Why did I not? I was really sexually attracted to him. I let that cloud my thinking. How boy energy does that sound? Hmmm? Sound like something a guy would do.

Listen to me – this is the brutal truth- when a man tells you that he only wants fun-believe him. When a man tells you he has never been able to keep a relationship going for more than a few months- there is a reason why. When a man tells you that you “should not feel a certain way” and thereby invalidates and dismisses how you feel-he is disrespecting you and you should tell him exactly how you feel about that and if he continues that kind of behavior then get up right then and walk away-for good.

When a man tells you that he has nothing to offer you- believe him. He doesn’t!! When a man wants you to do all the emotional work while he sits back and takes- you will just end up feeling resentful and drained and angry and crappy. It will be all wrong and nothing will fix it. He is not going to change. A leopard does not change his spots! He is a leopard and was all along!

When a man tells you “I am not gonna chase you” believe him. He is not going to!! That means he does not care enough to make the effort to win you. PERIOD.

This guy was/is not a man. He was/is a little boy in a man suit. He is also 56 years old!!! Chances are he is NEVER going to be any different. No wonder he never can keep a woman for very long and no wonder I got so angry at him. Geeeeze-I woke up from the dream at around 5 months and realized. WTF am I doing here?

Well, what I was doing there was learning my boundaries are way out of whack and somehow I lost my real self and it did not feel good at all. And I was his “girlfriend” and yes that is a BIG mistake. He had me-and then proceed to treat me however he thought he could get away with. Oh I protested-many times, but always relented. I was too nice. Too loving.

Then the sex wained off big time. Then he got remote and distant. Then the affection went away. He took me for granted. He called at the last minute to make plans.
He put me last, not first as a priority.

Then at 6 months he wanted to “just be friends”. This scenario is like the template for EVERYTHING Rori ever talks about. I feel like the poster child for the Rori Raye program. LOL!!!

I have not responded to his last emails of two weeks ago and will not. He does not call me- thank god. I do not want to be his friend. What BS!!!

So-lesson learned. I did not have closure-it was not resolved. There was no “talk”. I got on my horse and rode away. That was it.

Is it painful? Oh hell yes it is. But I am doing ok. I have been dating a LOT. 22 men for coffee dates in the last two months! This is now about me. Not them. And THAT feels right and THAT feels good and THAT feels like it is supposed to be. They pay. They drive. I just show up.

We women live sometimes in the land of delusion.

Fantasy land. Imaginary men for our own imaginary lives. Oh my- get real. Get feel. Get raw. Get truth. Get some pelotas (Spanish for balls) so we can be real and be girl and be in touch with our guts so we can not only see the red flags but act on them instead of being in denial about all this stuff.

Loneliness is a bitch. It can make you do things you regret. What Rori is telling you is to get a life. Get out. Date. Circulate. Get your own interests. BE real. Get moving. Do not live in a 1950’s dreamworld like all those old songs “Wishing and hoping and thinking and praying won’t get you into his arms”……WAKE UP.
And then there is my personal favorite verse-”Wear your hair just for him, do the things he likes to do, la la la OMG!!!! Wear you hair for yourself! Do the things YOU like to do! To thine own self be true lest you can not be false to any man! I love that bit of wisdom.

Ladies I am still learning, growing, and making my way in this mixed up crazy girl/boy world we live in. I wish you all the very best and thanks to you all for your love and support and honesty.

Turtle girl
Taking it slow, but taking it.”

Thank you, Turtle Girl…

This is a first hand testimonial for working the Tools…

The first goalpost we’re looking for here is to get out of the “It’s all about him” place into “It’s all about me…” and then go from there.  And in the process, we find out WHY we were so “all about him” has to do with things that are “all about me” – just different parts of me.

So many step-by-steps along the way so we don’t get stuck inside ourselves while we’re focusing on ourselves.

It’s like, as Turtle Girl expresses, getting a wider world for us.  A bigger place to be. A happier place to be.  A place where we’re the center, we’re the star, and where we have so much love, energy, compassion, faith, happiness to shower ourselves and the rest of the world with.

What I love from all your comments is the step-by-steps as YOU take them.

We can all get so goal-oriented that we frustrate ourselves when we don’t feel magically “turned around” instantly.  And yet – you CAN turn around instantly. Sometimes, just reading a story from someone who’s turned things around, even if we’re hesitating in our own step-by-steps can be exciting and encouraging enough to propel us forward.

The steps it takes to wean yourself away from a man who is punishing you, who you are USING to punish yourself out of habit and old patterns and subconscious pressure from your Nasty Voice can be…fun!

I know that may sound like a stretch – fun in these circumstances…but all I can picture is you riding away on your horse.  I see you with your hair streaming in the wind, your heart open, your smile loose and easy…and everything wonderful, new, exciting, different, challenging and romantic stretched out in front of you like a giant, 3-D, 4-D, endless-D mural.

Ride on…

Love, Rori

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302 Comments

  1.  #1Maria on January 14, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    This is excellent!!!



  2.  #2Kay on January 14, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    I love this post, I had an opportunity to see the man I adore but he wanted me to come to him, it didn’t feel right, I felt like I was chasing him, like I was desperately hoping for something that most likely would have turned into nothing because it was a secret, I couldn’t tell anyone I was coming, I felt he was ashamed of me but I felt so excited to have him in my life all at the same time but no I can’t go down that path again, it just doesn’t feel good anymore.

    Thanks Rori



  3.  #3Robin on January 14, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    I needed this…Thank you. Ive been feeling sad & all i wanted to post was maybe its not meant for me to get married. Now im really considering if im using this fav guy to punish me..When we started dating he established a pattern of 1-2 dates per week & a couple of txts a week. Weve never done much communication other than in person which felt great. And he treats me magnificently when we’re together. But im finding that i want to see him more & i want to hear from him more..I just want to change the pattern that was fine before…Im finding that this is important for me. And i can also see myself coming off as needy if i say something & yet thats what i need from him? Is he toxic? Am i toxic?



  4.  #4Robin on January 14, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    And whats up w the kissing??? I mean come on, weve been out enough times, id like a good french every now & then or an all-out make out session. I remember when he 1st leaned in to kiss me, i instinctivly leaned forward& then panicd about it & leand babk. It was ackward-he thought i panicd about him leaning in-not the case @ all. But this is getting ridiculous-this need is not getting met, its really bothering me, its triggering insecurity, & i really dont know if theres a good way to bring any of this up



  5.  #5Robin on January 14, 2010 at 10:35 pm

    And…OMG i feel triggered everytime i hear that song too!



  6.  #6Kay on January 14, 2010 at 10:58 pm

    It’s hard Robin, talking about issues like this can create more emotional conflict, make things feel hard and most likely he will end up creating more distance between you 2.

    you rejected him, no amount of explaining will change that. If you want a kiss then you will just have to plant a huge big wet one on him, Flirt all night, touch him seductively and at the end of the date get so close to his face he can’t help but lean in, and if he’s still too shy, give him a kiss he can’t resist.

    You can say how him coming in to kiss you made you feel, use words like explosive, beautiful, alive, hot, yearning for more. You can say how hot his skin felt up against your skin and it startled you, you were so turned on that you leaned back. Then you can say I want you to kiss me….scary but it works, feeling messages really can open a man’s heart right on up, it works for me.

    Instead of waiting you have to dig deep and let him see your vulnerable state, let him feel your softness as you speak slowly and softly, you just have to lead him into your soft world and assure him it’s safe.

    I feel silly saying this but I believe in myself because I have used feeling messages and they work.



  7.  #7Tina on January 14, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    My went out on my adventure, I noticed while I was in the grocery store, a man from a distance, I looked up and he was staring straight at me, he was in the deli section and I was checking out. I was looking like my usual rockstar self in my snowboarding pants – was cold day. I just had a really great facial, my face was red from extractions and shiny from the moisturizers used. I didnt really pay much attention other than noticing him staring at me – Im noticing this a lot lately. I’M A FREAKEN GODDESS! I completely forgot about my blotchy red face 🙂 I noticed him coming closer, I didnt know what to do so rather than do nothing, I leaned back with one foot behind the other, feeling my groceries as I put placed them on the checkout counter. I thougtht he must have a goddess radar on or somthing. He hovered, yeah hovered around me.

    The business depot guy was really sexy too, I dont know if he was picking up my vibe or I was picking up his but it was intense. We talked paper shredders, I bought one. He wasnt magazine cover sexy, it was something about the way he was standing, like he wanted to touch me, I had to keep my distance , for sure he would have.

    The guy with his wife and little baby aw cute baby, was staring at me and started to lick his lips, I was like ok, I looked at his wife and the baby I smiled at the baby then up at her , she gave me a big smile back and I said aw cute, she didnt seem to mind that her husband was oggling me, she had a radiant smile.

    Police officer guy was interesting, he noticed me but kept on making his coffee, until a friend of mine walked in, I gave her a big hug we chatted , laughed, he looked up again, this time he gazed at me. He gazed me right out of the store as I did my goddess walk :).

    All the while my neighbor commenting on my beauty 🙂 he was really doing it up, we laughed , had a great time doing errands together. He is the one almost taking off my porch and pulling up with the passenger door facing my door awe sweet. These are just some of the highlights with my circular dating encounters. Garbage truck man was interesting.

    I havnt quite fully excepted the fact that I am a Goddess, not 100% as I would like.

    You rock Turtle Woman Goddess!



  8.  #8Honey on January 14, 2010 at 11:57 pm

    Turtle Girl! My Hero! What a girl! What a woman! What a Siren! What a Goddess. Thank you, I feel so inspired! Love Honey



  9.  #9Soignée on January 15, 2010 at 1:11 am

    I love this post. I love that you offer the women the whole life instead of sitting, crying, beiing sad, waiting for love. I love this life full of interesting things, a life to live.

    Thank you.



  10.  #10Lola on January 15, 2010 at 2:04 am

    Turtle Girl

    Amen to that!

    I have noticed a lot of men recently out shopping in the street, made eye contact and they have smiled at me. Once I would have thought: “Oh he just feels sorry for me cos my bags are so heavy/ it’s raining so hard/ he’s probably married/gay/I’ve probably got ink on my face…”

    Now I just think “Ah, that was a magic moment!”



  11.  #11orchard on January 15, 2010 at 5:24 am

    It was so good to hear from some of you over the last few days. I am still keeping on keeping on and trying to hold together these struggling children. When it all goes pear-shaped at home with fights amongst them and chaos, I can get so discouraged and feel I am not up to the job. I have a glittery necklace with the word “Warrior” on it which I wear – it is a part of me that got buried in my relationship because my husband-who-has-left only ever wanted to live out of a “Hero” archetype and I ended up feeling not as strong and heroic as him (though I was largely responsible for 5 children !! fairly heroic!)

    So I am trying to be a Warrior Princess and hold us together and find the right road ahead. (I hadn’t thought of including a horse in the picture until Rori suggested it. I like the idea of the horse carrying this warrior woman, who often gets tired!) As well as allowing and embracing the wounded and sad and abandoned part of me, the part that feels so broken sometimes I think I will never mend. My current anxiety is that quite soon I have to have some meetings with my husband to try and iron out some of the practical difficulties. He left so suddenly – one day he was there, involved in family life and loving me, I thought, and then the next he had gone, telling me he was in a crisis and couldn’t stay. There is part of me that just doesn’t buy his story. We had a really interesting but challenging relationship , where we did end up getting polarised – me earth mother, him busy hero – but he is saying things like he’s never loved me for 20 years, which is clearly insane. It feels to me like a mid life crisis.

    Anyway he’s not here and has convinced himself there’s nothing in it for him and then I have to meet up with him to try and be business like and practical. Here’s where I need help:

    Do you feel I should really really really start divorce proceedings? I still love him and he has been a great dad til he left. Do I take him at his word and say its over?

    In these meetings do you think I just lean back and let him say what he wants to say?

    How possible is it to date or even get out of the house when all the children are all over the place?

    Sorry to go on at length. I’m so grateful for somewhere to say some of what’s going on and have some kind responses.

    Sending love x



  12.  #12alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 5:48 am

    orchard – how do you Feel about all those things you asked about?

    when i get in touch with my feelings, i get in touch with my truth, my heart, my desires and what is truly going on for me.

    my feelings give me great clarity about what actions to take.

    i feel supportive and compassionate.



  13.  #13Lola on January 15, 2010 at 6:20 am

    Orchard

    I feel you are the heroic one here.

    I agree with AG about feeling the feelings and seeing what they lead you to. It may feel good to concentrate just on you and the children’s needs as his stuff is now his own to deal with.

    There is so much in your post and it brought up a lot of feelings in me to do with your situation and also what happened in my life. I have to rush off but will get back to see what people have responded and add my feelings too, if appropriate.
    Bye for now
    XXX



  14.  #14Tina on January 15, 2010 at 6:55 am

    Orchard, I cant understand after twenty years a man saying he hasnt loved you for that time. It’s time to start loving yourself 🙂 nevermind the kids, I have kids, they are fine. You are here. Start by finding yourself, have your own midlife crisis. You have a computer, you have your 5 kids, you have us 🙂 Have you asked him if he is having an affair?



  15.  #15Tina on January 15, 2010 at 6:58 am

    OMG! Alias girl, I just clicked on your site lol, I didnt get a chance to look yet but I feel really excited hehe, I’m going back. Rock on!



  16.  #16Tina on January 15, 2010 at 7:10 am

    Alias girl, I’m learning Amy Winehouse’s “Valarie” and Freddy Fenders “wasted days” hehe.



  17.  #17DocK on January 15, 2010 at 7:24 am

    I just had to add the following song to the WTF are you kidding me? song lyric collection. My dad bought this as a 45 record for my Mom when I was a little girl. She was really pissed. I told a friend about it some years ago and she thought I was making it up. She said it came on the public radio station she was listening to one day and she actually pulled over to the side of hte road she was so worked up. LOL

    Wives and Lovers

    Hey, little girl,
    Comb your hair, fix your make-up.
    Soon he will open the door.
    Don’t think because
    There’s a ring on your finger,
    You needn’t try any more

    For wives should always be lovers, too.
    Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you.
    I’m warning you.

    Day after day,
    There are girls at the office,
    And men will always be men.
    Don’t send him off
    With your hair still in curlers.
    You may not see him again.

    For wives should always be lovers, too.
    Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you.
    He’s almost here.

    Hey, little girl
    Better wear something pretty,
    something you’d wear to go to the city.
    And dim all the lights,
    Pour the wine, start the music.
    Time to get ready for love.

    Oh, time to get ready,
    Time to get ready,
    Time to get ready
    For love.

    I mean – I get the part about being girly and feminine but there’s something about this that just feels really icky.



  18.  #18Aldonza on January 15, 2010 at 7:45 am

    You go Turtle Girl!!! I love that image of you hopping on your horse and riding away. Closure? What the hell is that? I’ve never known someone who ended a bad relationship and said, “Wow, I have closure. I can move on.” Wounds don’t close. They heal. And healing takes time. But they don’t heal if you keep opening them.



  19.  #19Tara on January 15, 2010 at 7:50 am

    Turtle Girl:
    That was an amazing, brilliant, wonderful post! Thank you thank you thank you!!! You are a goddess…

    Tina:
    WOW!!! How did you do that? I want to have men following me around and ogling, too!
    Good for you!!

    {{{{Robin}}}} It’s hard to deal with a guy who doesn’t want to kiss much or make out. I had one of those. It made me feel less desirable. Talking didn’t help. I realized I’d been initiating most of the kissing and making out. This was before I discovered Rori and this site, but I decided to back off a bit. Taking the kissing very slowly and deliberately leaning back and allowing him only some teasing, feathery kisses, even while flirting a lot, worked well.

    Orchard:
    If he really doesn’t love you and wants out, let HIM file. I went through a divorce from my porn-addicted husband — with six kids ages 2-12 — and we all came out OK. Rori’s tools and the e-book really do work, so use them all day long. I just wish I’d known about them at that time. You’ll find lots of love and support here, too.

    Thank You, Rori!
    Steve had asked me for a coffee date but rescheduled it for next week after getting a meeting dumped in his lap. He didn’t text me the next day, either. My mind knows he’s just showing me what he can’t give me, but it started to bother me anyway. I opened up my e-mail and found Rori’s Graceful Go-Away tool and did it several times yesterday. I felt better!

    Question: If I am doing this tool all on my own and there’s not much communication with him (because I’m leaning back), how does it change the man’s feelings or improve what’s going on (which currently is not much of anything)?

    I am getting some amazing opportunities to do what I love (theater and writing) dumped in my lap, and starting to have great connections with all kinds of people — professors, fellow students, friends, etc. — just not MEN and not in a romantic way. Am I doing something wrong?

    Tara



  20.  #20Flipper on January 15, 2010 at 7:50 am

    Orchard,

    Here’s an old post from the Break-up and Divorce thread that I feel addresses a lot of your concerns:

    https://blog.havetherelationshipyouwant.com/category/breakup-divorce/page/3/.
    The encouraging thing is that it’s a success story, and though your circumstances are different, there are also a lot of interesting comments and suggestions that may help you tweak things to better suit you and your situation. Also the other posts in that section seem pertinent.

    As Alias Girl suggested, it’s when we ask ourselves what we feel about stuff very specifically that clarity comes. For example, take some quiet time and go back into a post you’ve made, looking at each sentence and remembering how you felt about that at the time, and then see how you are still feeling about it right now. It helps me to start by noticing what my body is already manifesting, even barely perceptibly, just because it ‘knows’ that trigger already, from having lived thru it before and written it down. Until Rori, I ignored those signs and infinitessimal twitches completely, unconsciously and consciously, but shutting out the bodily signs also closed the door on all the rest, so that’s a good starting place for me.

    Hugs and lots of courage, Warrior Princess on your Valiant Steed



  21.  #21Flipper on January 15, 2010 at 8:45 am

    I had a an aha daydream the other day that fits well with all the ‘doing-for’ in Turtle Girl’s post. It got ingrained in me (thru teaching, misconceptions, chance, misguided advice ??? (doesn’t matter in the end, the pattern IS THERE)) that I was always supposed to look out for others, empathize, care for them, do for them, please THEM, AND ‘not feel sorry for myself’. Take responsibility, yes yes yes, but Not For Myself, at least not in any feel-good way (that must be self-serving so it doesn’t count, right?). So I concluded that the ‘good’ ways of the world’ were for everyone to ‘do’ for everyone else, and that way I’d get mine, too, from them (eventually, if I was good and patient and unstinting and didn’t bean-count), as I was doing for them. Guess what? That’s not the way it is. Self-less is Not Good. Trying to put yourself in other people’s shoes is as ridiculous as it sounds. It makes more sense to my intellect to take care of myself (such a relief, I’m so picky, and admit I don’t always appreciate what others do ‘for’ me) – but it’s still so hard to feel things that way.

    Robin –

    Do you remember Nikita’s tool, where she just imagined all that good lovin’ on her while in a guy’s presence? Not one millimeter forward, but some pretty serious radiating and enticing going on!



  22.  #22DocK on January 15, 2010 at 9:26 am

    I did want to contribute something about “closure” because I think the word has some different meanings to different people – and that is OK.

    Once upon a time, I did request and receive, a conversation. Yes, leaning forward, but this was not a conversation to get us back together. I felt that the way we parted company left a few things unclear and I felt frustrated. Now, he could have said, “no” and no matter how frustrated I was, that would have been the end of it, but he didn’t, and we did talk, civilally. I felt a lot more peace within myself about what had happened and the grieving of a lost relationship progressed. Before that, I did feel “stuck.”

    It wasn’t closure in the sense that having a talk suddenly made us see eye-to-eye on everything and on every issue, but I felt I understood his perspective (and he said mine as well) even if I didn’t agree with it (or he, mine). Maybe we were able to do this because this wasn’t an ugly, mean break-up but had some “bad” timing and differing needs issues and also something that needed to be cleared up was “status” and that no one was going to be in a “holding” pattern.

    In a different break-up, the guy and I had so much back and forth that was very icky that I remember the day (Valentine’s Day no less) that he wanted to argue and I didn’t and I said to him, ‘Just leave,’ and he did. Kind of that point that Rori describes when you look at a guy and realize you are really just bored and no longer interested in the nonsense – and mean it. We never spoke again. There was no follow-up conversation as to, ‘OK, so are we really “over” then?’ or anything. It was done and we knew it.

    That doesn’t mean I didn’t feel hurt or sad. I think so often, even when we are the ones that want a relationship to end, it still feels like the loss of a dream or hope or something. There was that time when things felt pretty good – that is how we got there in the first place. It is so hard to let of that.

    I love the story from Turtle Girl (what a great nom de plume!) Exhibit A of when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired and take control and love yourself.

    Tina – too hot to handle! There is this country song T-R-O-U-B-L-E with the video of this woman walking through the club and she is so WOW – not JUST her looks – her PRESENCE!

    Robin – so beautiful and talented. You are a rockstar. I used to second guess a lot and now I just go ‘oops’ and know I’m human and practice tools some more. I think that is why Rori says “baby steps” so much cuz she knows it’s hard to get everything right and keep every tool in our head – we’re human and in the heat of the moment we just make a decision and that is that. So what. Men adore you – that is evident. Receive and soak it all up.

    Orchard – I feel empathy for you. I don’t believe he didn’t love you for 20 years – men don’t seem to stay anywhere they don’t want to – what to be nice? Nonsense. But that doesn’t change your hurt and situation. I know that Rori’s tools can turn a situation around but they can also help you reclaim yourself and her e-letters and programs have so many real ways to sink into the feelings and move through them and so on. I am so sorry you feel hurt : (



  23.  #23Tracy on January 15, 2010 at 9:53 am

    Dock,
    Thanks for sharing your experiences.
    I faced a huge break up not so long ago,and since we still work together i keep getting reminded of the past whenever i see him.
    I feel the need to have my space and i feel glad that i am feeling stronger about not revisiting the whole issue again.
    I feel that this is an opportunity for me to practise loving myself and being intune with my feelings.
    I feel that i have finally reached a point within me that actually ackowledges that i am something precious and loving and loving and accepting myself is of great importance.It feels sad to remember the loss and wonder what might have been but i am learning to be grateful of the experience because it has helped me find myself and discover what love really means…
    There are times i feel resentful,i feel vengeful i feel angry and i want to hit back….I am learning not to supress all these…its all coming out and it feels like i am really beginning to heal.



  24.  #24Rori Raye on January 15, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Tina, congratulations on leaning back at the counter…next step…look at him, look into his eyes, make eye contact, and smile from your heart. Just open it up in his presence. That’s all you have to do. Appreciate him in that moment. He’ll feel good, you’ll feel good, and if he’s available, he’ll start a conversation. Great, great practice. Love, Rori



  25.  #25Rori Raye on January 15, 2010 at 10:38 am

    Yes, Lola – Magic Moment! Love, Rori



  26.  #26Rori Raye on January 15, 2010 at 10:43 am

    Orchard…Starting divorce proceedings is not the issue here. When you’re ready for that, you’ll know. Circular Dating, though, is CRUCIAL right now, and I don’t mean the “dating” part of it – but the therapeutic part of it (learn here and in Targeting Mr. Right). As for the kids..I love “Supernanny.” I watch it all the time for ideas. Not only does she get the family on board together, she gets husband/fathers who are checked out back IN the picture. I know it’s harder to do it yourself, without Supernanny (think Jon & Kate) – but you’ll get ideas about how to get all the kids and you functioning as a TEAM – instead of all the conflict. Treat him with respect as the father of your children, cordially, lean back, encourage him to be the best father he can right now by praising him and respecting him and appreciating him whenever he does anything (anything!) even remotely good for the kids or around the kids. Then – you get a life for YOU! Start doing art, or acting…you can do this with the kids, too…Love, Rori



  27.  #27Rori Raye on January 15, 2010 at 10:44 am

    Thanks, Flipper, for that find…Love, Rori



  28.  #28Turtle Girl on January 15, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Hi again- I wanted to add that even though you gals know what I mean when I said get some pelotas (balls) I really like the expression of having “brass ovaries” – sounds a little more girlie girl to me……lol…………

    But whatever one calls it – it is what we need to do. Warrior women – strong and proud of who we are.

    Thanks Rori for putting this up for all to see. If anything I said helps anyone even in a small way, that makes me feel good. I know that I have certainly gained insight, strength and resolve by reading many of the stories that all these beautiful women have shared.

    Indeed.
    Ride on.

    Turtle Girl
    Taking it slow, but taking it.



  29.  #29Turtle Girl on January 15, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    Oh and Dock-thank you posting those song lyrics. The reason that song feels so icky to me is because it is actually a threat. He guy is threatening that if you as his wife do not act a certain way and be perfect in that way for him-then he will leave you. Now-these days-if a man were to say something like that, it is still a threat, but I might look at him and say “Oh plaaaaleeeeezzzeee……get over yourself-are you kidding me?!” and then laugh. Well yeah, because I have the luxury of NOT NEEDING HIM FOR MY VERY LIVELIHOOD. Those songs were in the 1950’s when women were truly economic and sexual slaves. We had no other options but to live in fear of our husband not be pleased with us. It made men more than a bit cocky and arrogant and gave them all the power. When you can’t support yourself, you will do anything to not “get out of line” because your very survival depends on pleasing that man. Those messages linger with us today. It is part and parcel of why we still do the crazy ass shit we do over men. There was a book that came out a many years back called The Cinderella Complex. Worth a look if some of you younger gals have not read it.



  30.  #30DocK on January 15, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    You are so right Turtle Girl. Guys like to blah blah blah about gender differences with “stepping out” (uh, cheating) and stuff, but the fact is women, couldn’t if they wanted to because, as you say, they didn’t have their own income and power so if she cheated and got tossed out – what was she supposed to do? On the other hand, when women DID have their own power and money – lots of them behaved just like the boys screwin’ the chauffeur, the stable boy, the….

    Yup, I remember Cinderella Complex. Was, like, ground-breaking once upon a time.

    HA HA HA – Listen to me! Speaking of the 50s and GIRLIE!!!! I am doing a pin-up girl photo shoot in a few weeks. Stockings and garters and bullet bras – oh my!



  31.  #31tinque on January 15, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    AWESOME Miss DocK…
    xxoo



  32.  #32Nancy on January 15, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    I love this post. It just feels so clean and right. Clarity is a wonderful thing, as is righteously leaving behind what we don’t want and what doesn’t fulfil us.

    If anyone’s interested in my update, I have now not seen my man for 10 days. He’s called a couple of times, said he missed me, but no plans. It would seem he took my speech (i’m not sure how long i can continue to be in our relationship without being married) and is taking time to decide right now whether it’s yes or no for him. Or maybe he’s just trying to starve me into backing down. I’m backing up and backing out, but I won’t back down. I deserve the love of my life. I don’t believe he owes it to me, but I do owe it to myself.
    With each day comes more clarity. I’m using the tools. Rori, thanks for “Gracefully Moving Away”. SOOOO helpful.

    I see my mistake. I gave my power speech right on the heels of making a huge forward lunge at the relationship and pushing at it, rather than following the steps and giving the power speech when I was leaned back and at the wall. My anger pushed it out of me when I didn’t expect it. So it all feels very sticky and tricky right now. I’m working on my independence and circular dating, energetically stepping back and not calling or contacting him. I’m feeling emotionally exhausted from the ripping sensation elicited by suddenly having no real contact with my man. But, I figure I made the speech and backing down, giving in isn’t the answer. Last night, I began having my very first feelings, in 20 months of the relationship, that maybe he’s not the one I want. I certainly wouldn’t accept this behavior from a man I had just begun dating!

    xxoo
    Nancy



  33.  #33Simply Shannon on January 15, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Robin: I haven’t read all of the posts yet but saw your note about the kissing. Nikita described something once where she imagined her guy literally putting his hands up her shirt. I wonder if really getting that visual in your head when you are with him might send him a signal that you want to be kissed. Sometimes just not talking, tilting your head, and smiling at a guy will do the trick.

    “It would feel sooo good to kiss… or be touched… or hug”, smile, tilt head, look in his eyes. Or even walk away smiling. Simple flirting.

    My basic need for touch is SUPER important. That IS my love language. If it’s not being met, then I’m not making dates with that guy as much.



  34.  #34Daria on January 15, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    the part of Rori’s program i feel behind on is Creating a Fabulous Life.

    I feel awkward going to a fancy restuarant to eat by myself. =(

    I feel awkward and tightened up thinking of going dancing by myself. =(

    I feel weird.

    A woman all alone. It reminds me of being rejected in middle school and not having anyone to eat lunch with. and that felt awful, and i cut those feelings off wiht numbness.

    I feel weird even going to a carshow or almost any public event by myself.

    Heres some of the stuff i do do by myself now: drive. Go to Barnes and Noble. Eat at small restaurants. I’ve been to the movies once. (I would have felt awkward, but remembered my cousin saying she used to do this, and that seems to make it ok, well if she can do it i can too)

    walk around downtown areas

    grocery shop

    I feel envious of men I date who always have other men to hang out with.

    Sex man went to play video games in his brothers room, and another friend came by, and then another.

    This is what I want.

    I loved guywhohadababy’s house for the same reason.

    Even my lil brother who i was hanging out with yesterday, was with two friends he made from work. and we did the same stuff (walk around downtown) and it felt fun to be more than one.

    where do men i might like hang out?

    in their house or in front of it or on the street in a group of other men and maybe women

    at carshows

    at clubs and bars

    in music studios, usually in a group

    thats what comes to mind.

    mmmm….

    do i just drive thru the streets looking at a group of men and then wave and see if they flag me down?

    that feels scary. i bet my Godsister would do it, maybe.

    =(

    i dont feel comfortable doing that right now

    my “in” to meeting men was having a lot of brothers, and they hang out with other men.

    but ive pulled back a lot from hanging out with them, and even they have pulled back a lot, being busy and stuff.

    i feel kinda sad and lost.

    =(



  35.  #35Rachel on January 15, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Nancy,

    I love your last two sentences! I remember the first time I allowed myself to think… “Maybe this isn’t the right man.” The thought was both terrifying and empowering.

    Last night I had a WOW moment. For the first time, I actually felt BORED thinking about talking to Guy A. I went to bed with an UNREAD email from him in my inbox. I saw it there and just decided that I didn’t need to know what it said. I didn’t feel like being triggered before going to sleep. This is a HUGE victory for me!

    Like you, I’m realizing that this wouldn’t be acceptable behavior in a new relationship. But I think since I have so much invested (over a year) with this man, I allow him to get by with things that I shouldn’t.

    I love that you are circular dating, working on your independence and “energetically” leaning back. I feel strength in your words and that strengthens me too.

    I don’t know where things will end up, but I want to know that I’ll be ok no matter what the outcome. I still feel a underlying ache throughout the day, but I am beginning to feel joy and love for life again too.

    XOXO



  36.  #36orchard on January 15, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    Hello its me again
    I still wonder how I should be when I have to meet up with my husband. Its a difficult situation to explain but when he walked out so suddenly, our children – well most of them are teenagers – were furious with him and felt completely abandoned. He went from being here everyday and being an involved father to being completely absent. On those occasions he tried to come back to the house to see them, these strong, feisty and opinionated children literally fought him out again, swearing and cursing as they did so. I had to try and manage chaotic scenes where they were attacking him and he was being physical with them. Eventually I said he couldn’t come into the house because it was too distressing for everyone but I encouraged him to pick up the less volatile younger ones from school.
    Because I was also so devastated I said that I didn’t want direct contact with him because I felt I needed space and time to recover.

    So now a good 6 months has gone by where I have had no contact with him at all. All I know from others who have seen him is that he is drinking heavily and desperate about the children. And now I have to see him with a mediator to try and look at some of the practical things. As I said previously, it feels like a midlife crisis to me, and yes there were lots of things that we could have been doing differently, but not so many that it felt the end of the relationship was in sight. Do I agree with him and sort out a separation agreement? And keep it all business-like? And behave as if I’ve got better things to be doing than worry about my relationship with him? Or do I risk being open and using feeling statements, and see it that leads anywhere.
    Yes I know I need to spend alot more time thinking and feeling about me, circular dating and all but after investing 20 years in what I thought was a good relationship and having 5 extraordinary children with him, do I just put all of it aside and say that was then and now I’m riding off without him?
    Ps I love Supernanny too Rori and wish she would come round here. xx



  37.  #37Carla on January 15, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    WOW!!! This is one of my favorites!!! I feel so empowered after reading her thoughts 🙂



  38.  #38alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    orchard- from my understanding, you FELT devastated when he left and needed space and time to recover.

    your children FELT abandoned.

    how do you FEEL now?

    nancy- you DO deserve the love of your life. i liked your comment about the timing of speeches.

    dock – have fun at your photo shoot! please shows us when you get them finished!

    tina – omg supergoddess! i feel INSPIRED with all your goddess energy!!

    turtle girl thanks for sharing your golden ovaries! (como se dice “golden ovaries” en espanol?

    flipper – what a lovely and soft unfolding i feel. a satchel of rare jewels indeed …as well as divine, precious femininity and self love being revealed. i feel protective and cherishing.

    love to all the sirens on the island. i feel appreciative and interested in your journeys.



  39.  #39alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    i feel so empowered after going on that actual date after a year of kind of circling around circular dating and mostly just dating myself. (plus a TON of emails and calls from men practicing practicing practicing rori’s tools.) now i feel ready to jump in. practically anyone that asks. sure we can meet for a quick drink, why not.

    🙂



  40.  #40Saskia on January 15, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Thank you Tutlegirl for being such an inspiration.

    I am still hopelessly stuck with a toxic man, my heart just not wanting to let go. He has walked out on me a few times already, but he always apologised quickly. Now, after a minor upset he has not contacted me in over a week. I am pretty certain he is serious this time. After over 4 years together and telling me he loved me only a couple of weeks ago and making big plans for the future, I am incredulous that he would end it without even speaking to me. Of course I just want to pick up the phone and ask what the hell is going on, but I know this is not going to do me any favours, so I am trying very hard to resist – not sure how long I will last. It’s true there is no such thing as closure, just time healing wounds. Guess I will just have to go through it. Maybe I can pick myself up soon and get on that horse!



  41.  #41alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    do ALL guys love UFC or just the ones i click on? i guess i love the fighters.



  42.  #42Kay on January 15, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    Orchard I want to tell you to focus on yourself, he most likely will not welcome so much of your focus on him at this time, I say go with an open mind and open heart, listen, lean back and see were it takes you. I wouldn’t tell you not to reach out to your husband, I don’t feel good telling you not to but it seems he needs more than that, he needs self care, meaning he needs to take care of himself and it seems he isn’t doing that if he’s drinking heavily, give him some space to figure out his own path. Let him work through his crisis, and you take care of yourself and your kids, the most I would do if I were in your situation is let him know your available to talk but I wouldn’t do too much more than that.

    Give it some time, things will be okay, children will be okay if you show them a positive outlook and attitude.

    When my mom and dad fell apart the one thing I wish as an adult is that there issues never effected me, that someone protected the kids, he fell apart, the whole family unit fell apart and we the kids suffered immensely, by the time my mom got strong enough to stop the madness and really protect our feelings it was too late, too much damage was done, we all lived in a dark void for years. Try focusing on yourself and taking care of your kids, I think that’s the best thing you can do for everyone even him.



  43.  #43alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    saskia i am reminded of that book mary mentioned ‘Mr Unavailable and The Fallback Girl.’ i’ve never read it myself but it sounded familiar when mary described it. i just googled it.

    “Learn about yourself, the Fallback Girl; that woman that Mr Unavailable relies on to massage his ego and cater to his needs whilst MANAGING DOWN her expectations and contributing little or nothing into the relationship”

    uh yeah this sounds very familiar to the OLD me. i feel SO GOOD this is no longer appealing but actually feels Repulsive to me.

    the caps on MANAGING DOWN i added. here, fallback girl. here is a crumb but do not expect more. i only give them out when i feel i am losing control of my power over you.

    “i ain’t no hollaback girl…” -gwen stephani
    “i ain’t no fallaback girl” – alias girl

    AH WHAT A GLORIOUS FEAST LIFE IS OFFERING ME. hundreds of men clamoring at my castle door with gifts and love and affection and effort and attention. thank you.

    what a glorious feast life is offering me with all the fun and invigorating opportunities i have to be, do, have and experience all the things that delight me.



  44.  #44Kay on January 15, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Saskia I’m curious…How many times has he done this disappearing act?

    The reason I ask is that if you can literally see a pattern of him doing this then you can be assured it’s temporary and you can relax while he’s gone.

    If he’s done this 10x’s/more than you can count, in and and out then most likely he’s learned to use this as an emotional trigger to gain power over you in the relationship, his behavior can make you look and seem like the emotionally out of control one in the relationship.

    A great site that talk about why men do this is http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/mr-unavailable-and-the-fallback-girl-book-one/



  45.  #45Saskia on January 15, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    Dear Kay and Alias girl.

    Thank you so much for your comments! I will definitely check out the website/book.

    In reply to your question, he has physically walked out on me half a dozen times (last time on my birthday) It is usually when he doesn’t get his way or when I am “too demanding” (we live three hours drive apart, so he would just grab his stuff and leave) He also told me a few times that this relationship wasn’t working when I spent the weekend at his place or when we were on holiday together, again always after I dare to stand up to him or challenge him with something. I think you are right about the power thing!



  46.  #46alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    on my dating site it seems a lot of men lead with a photo that is at least ten years out of date. then you click into their profile and see the extra 35 pounds and scowl-face.

    wtf.

    i would feel better not to feel tricked. maybe i can substitute compassion. they are looking for love, just like me.

    still though. wtf.



  47.  #47alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    i remember my first therapist who i love as much as i love life and my dog from childhood…

    she was a very refined and dignified, cultured, educated woman and she would match my language sometimes with my cursing. haha. i know it was just some part of her offering therapy and she didn’t really curse like that in real life. maybe she was mirroring me? who knows. i am no therapist. but it always made me laugh when she did it.



  48.  #48alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    well as a former champion fallback girl, six times in four years wouldn’t be that much for me. so saskia, i have no more input for you really. except that i like to follow my feelings. how do you feel?

    plus i was also more the ms. unavailable as well as a fallback girl. i am what they would call a ‘switch.’ so in the past i use to like to play both sides of the afraid-of-intimacy coin.



  49.  #49alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    i wonder if i can send myself a rose on my dating site.



  50.  #50alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    light bulb moment for myself. i may have even written this before but it feels brand new to me!

    and certainly this is rori’s suggestion with circular dating and her Targeting Mr Right program.

    if i just change my “goals” to dating at least three NO MATTER WHAT which -means a frog if necessary -then i will feel much more goddessey. i was trying to beat the system and use circular dating as a way to find my right guy.

    BRZZZRRRZZZ (sound of buzzer) incorrect answer!

    NO. if i use circular dating as it is intended. then mr right will FIND ME.

    this is rori’s program but i was trying to tailor things to the way i wanted.

    sometimes i feel so slow. i hear it. i think i am following along but i am not. i was literally trying to target mr right. totally backwards. i knew it but i guess i thought i could do it my way and somehow make it work.

    rrrrr i feel rrrrrrr.

    i feel good to find the joy in dating. the fun and the adventure. I WILL make this work for me in a pleasing way.



  51.  #51alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    also if i shift my “goals” from wanting a boyfriend to “getting my needs met” then i won’t CARE if a boy does not call me when he says he will.

    i won’t care. it won’t trigger me.

    because i’ll have a half dozen other men calling me.

    DUH. it’s just a shift. like moving to the right a little bit. shifting my goals.

    i am starting to feel inspired.



  52.  #52alias girl on January 15, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    i feel excited and smiley.



  53.  #53Rachel on January 15, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    Alias Girl… you are on a “roll” tonight! I love where your mind is! And it’s helping me to process differently.

    I loved what you wrote earlier about the “glorious feast” that life is offering. YES! I wrote this down and have been re-reading it. I feel excited about men clamoring at my castle door and expecially with experiencing things that delight ME!

    I’ve wasted too much time pining and longing… and grasping for crumbs. It’s BANQUET time!!!

    The Universe is listening… our wish is its command!



  54.  #54Daria on January 15, 2010 at 7:25 pm

    it felt weird that planned parenthood rejected me to get my antibiotics (that the clinician had told me i can come in and pick up if i needed them last time i was there a few weeks ago)

    mmm- i had BLOOD IN MY URINE

    i was like wow

    are you serious??

    i feel guilty for not knowing how to get what i wanted

    but my body did

    after that

    there was no more blood in my urine and my squeezy feelings have reduced dramatically

    i am taking almost hourly echinacea, and i just made myself a cup of uva ursi and yarrow tea, which i felt soothing me

    also i washed twice with the Fu yin tai herbal wash from my acupuncturist. i think this soothed my irritation that was bleeding.

    i am about to wash with it again

    take that planned parenthood . they wanted to make an appt fior me tuesday

    i thought it was against their policy to turn someone with an active pain problem

    i dono wtf

    but this is not the first time the bitches acted like bitches to me

    wtf

    u think u work at a free woman’s clinic you have a help women attitude

    not an i dont care if youre in pain and have BLOOD in your urine till tuesday attitude

    i feel anger coming up and making the area under my nose tingly and hot

    i love my anger

    i love my self care of myself yahdah



  55.  #55Daria on January 15, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    i did it!

    whooo!

    im starting to feel really tired

    i havent eaten anything. i want to starve out the bacteria.

    i feel worried that if i do eat something soon, they will kick back to life.

    when i had milder cases of this i always felt an increase in tingling, irritation whatever after eating

    im feeling really glad to be getting thru this, but now i just thought about overnite how im not going to have any herbs or anything. hope it will be cool



  56.  #56Lisa on January 15, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    What a great post, thanks. Turtle’s situation sounds pretty familiar: “He was/is a little boy in a man suit.” Men will tell you who they are; listen. There is no Pygmalion for us — we’ve been sold a bill of goods. the only one we can change is us. When we change, our choices change.

    Rori has the right wish for us — to expand, and find that our love is so great that there is no limit. Certainly, we need to take off our own reins. I was my own worst enemy. Didn’t matter that I was finding losers. There will be losers in the world. The problem was in me, not outside, where all of my focus was. If I wasn’t happy, it was ’cause I sensed I was being dissed and deserved better.

    Now that I have been going on on a journey inward, preparing for that outward, I am having the most amazing experiences on a micro level. Small and beautiful interactions, that are reinforcing my life views. It is quite awesome, really.

    Yes, Rachel, as Auntie Mame said, life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving. I’m a bit anemic now, but I’ll get everything circulating again 🙂

    Glad you used the lyrics, Turtle. Pop music has also sold us a bill of goods: “Love Hurts”/”Hurts So Good”, etc. Nope, love doesn’t hurt. Love uplifts and ennobles.



  57.  #57Kay on January 15, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Well Saskia it seems he has a pattern of leaving and coming back, I know your triggered right now, the best thing to do is absorb yourself into YOU. I’m sure if you think it out you probably can guess how long it will take him to come back around depending on his habits and patterns. Not that my advice makes it easier for you but maybe you can use this time to learn and slowly implement what you learn towards the relationship, maybe even decide to get out all together.



  58.  #58Daria on January 15, 2010 at 10:34 pm

    healing myself is fun to dooo fun to dooo
    even if i dont eat and just drink water all dayyyyy



  59.  #59janjune on January 15, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    well, it’s been fun reading what everybody’s been up to! wowee!!
    haha!!
    i feel giggly and tickled and silly and happy for the beautiful goddesses and their beautiful goddess progress.
    we truly are goddesses.
    things are happening fast here on Siren Island!

    i needed to “get off the blog”, out of my safe little cocoon, so to speak, and get out into the world armed with “rori’s stuff” and WORK IT!
    i had been getting out, but more as a test and with MUCH trepidation. i was depressed, so hurt.
    that feels like stinging eyes and puddles of tears welling up but not falling.

    well, for the past three days, i’ve just picked up my life and moved forward. thank you rori! i love U!

    and got all of that paperwork for this issue i’d been avoiding for a year and a half all pulled together, lined up the professionals and appointments needed to tackle it and move forward with it as well as finding the pc software needed.

    also got my job references okayed and lined up and contacted a former employer and have a (part-time) job interview lined up for Monday which looks about 70% promising and contacted another employer about working part time.

    a big thing has been not wanting to be very social lately, just haven’t felt like being with people that much. wanted to be by myself ALOT and have kind of not kept up with friends like normal for the past couple of years. so, also contacted a couple of friends i just haven’t felt like seeing that i sort of lost touch with and will be getting together with one tomorrow night and the other is a bunch of “the girls” who we’ve gotten together for 7-8 years but haven’t for the last two years or so.
    also, just a bunch of other small social interactions that i have declined (HID FROM!).
    nothing really big, but it feels like i’m circulating again, and more importantly really is i’m initiating it myself which most of the time for the last two or so years, i have only done social things out of obligation or not wanting to hurt people who i love having in my life but just didn’t have the energy for.



  60.  #60janjune on January 15, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    I FEEL NOW, LIKE A PORTION OF THE ENERGY DRAIN I FELT FROM THEM WAS JUST SIMPLY

    “ME”
    NOT SAYING
    HOW
    I F E L T !



  61.  #61Nancy on January 15, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    Saskia and Kay,

    Your conversation is helping me a lot. My man has disappeared 3 times, always when I let him know I’m not sure how long I can go without being married. It pushes him right out. It’s like it’s an affront to him. I have always thought of it as what Rori describes as me pushing him out of the bubble, but now I’m wondering it it isn’t a form of power and control. I definitely feel punished. I’m going to check out that link.

    xxoo
    Nancy



  62.  #62Nancy on January 15, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    Rachel,

    I’m so glad my words and our common experience helped you to feel stronger! And congrats on your boredom with that man’s email!
    You remind me that when I was online dating, I got so bored with men who weren’t stepping up and actually setting a date to meet me. I just totally lost interest in them. Now, that MUST MEAN… that soon I’m going to get bored with any man (my current one included) who doesn’t step up and commit to me… now THAT would be a WOW moment!!! I feel excited!

    xxoo
    Nancy



  63.  #63Nancy on January 15, 2010 at 11:36 pm

    janjune,

    that is SO profound! what a great insight, thanks!

    Nancy



  64.  #64janjune on January 15, 2010 at 11:36 pm

    oh, the wisdom of the goddesses on here though!!

    Truly amazing.

    Truly, TRULY inspiring!!!

    reading through the comments from the last three days, it’s like,
    “Oh, yeah, that’s so brilliant!”
    “oh my gosh she said the EXACT thing that’s going on!!”
    “oh my gosh, she read that situation perfectly, i didn’t even see that…



  65.  #65Nancy on January 15, 2010 at 11:39 pm

    janjune,

    Wow, just SO profound. I have been asking myself for 20 months what the weird energy drain is that my man and I experience together. What you’ve said has just opened up my eyes in an amazing way. I’m gonna be researching this one!

    xxoo
    Nancy



  66.  #66Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:08 am

    tryna figure out how to give a speech to sex man:

    heres what i wrote to a friend who is helping me

    ME: what i want is
    to have him focus on me and relaxing my body
    and turning me on physically
    like i want him to touch me in an in control way

    rather than ask me if i want to mess around
    and i also want
    him to come see me and take me out
    and romance and date me
    rather than just be a friend
    i want to show him what pleases me
    physically
    with the focus on that
    what do u think
    how do i put that together
    with feeling messages and dont wants

    but thats all wants

    i feel like maybe im just tryna squeeze it out of him
    like i feel
    sad
    saying that
    im not expecting to actually receive what i want
    saying it that way
    =(

    like the sex i bet would feel so good
    if we took it slow
    and he learned my body
    and how it reacts
    its an animal
    hehe



  67.  #67Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:08 am

    how can i turn that to a proper power speech?



  68.  #68janjune on January 16, 2010 at 12:25 am

    it’s awe-inspiring to be in the company of such saavy and soulful and compassionate goddesses.

    the truth that is breaking through here, breaking free here is bone-rattling to me. shakes me to my core.
    the honesty that’s coming out.
    of what’s being said. revealed. healed.
    deep deep truths of humanity and human nature.
    we are touching upon and sharing and exploring.
    AND removing the power of some very, very dark aspects of the human experience.
    and receiving HOPE in its place.
    not hope like what you do when there’s nothing else you *can* do (wishin’ and hopin’ and thinkin ‘ and prayin’)
    but the hope that my tomorrow can actually be different than the way my yesterday was.

    Seeing on this blog how hope for a really different kind of tomorrow is not an empty promise made by someone that’s as unfulfilling as it is untrue.
    No.
    but hearing the stories of how did *you* crawl out of the rubble?,… oh, you mean there are others?… oh, you mean i’m not alone?…



  69.  #69Kay on January 16, 2010 at 12:28 am

    Nancy I can say what I have learned from Christian, been studying him for a few years now. If it doesn’t feel right for a man he will resist and the more you bring up the subject to him and attempt to discuss it you just create more negative anchors inside of him and make him resist our ideas even more. Per my understanding it has to be a combination of physical and emotional attraction or a man just won’t budge, he may stay with you to get the benefits of having you there now but have no intentions of you being his forever woman.

    That is why I love Rori, she teaches us to go out and circular date to raise our confidence and degree of difficulty. There is something that is triggered that makes him want to resist, it’s not something he consciously sets out to be, it’s something that your saying or doing that tells him your not the one, maybe it’s how you handle conflict, some women panic and freak out, maybe it’s how you spring heavy issues on him, maybe it’s your self esteem, maybe he feels his life would be easier with you without marriage. I don’t say this to hurt your feelings, please don’t take it that way. Sometimes a man just doesn’t want it with you and sometimes he just needs to see a new improved you, a confident, can handle anything with a positive attitude kind of way.

    I encourage you not to give up, to explore and investigate your relationship. You already said you know how he gets triggered well I would encourage you to first STOP triggering him with the heavy emotional stuff about marriage and RETRAIN and RELEARN how to handle hard spots that come up with less emotional drama because unfortunately that is what he associates you with when you spring on the heavy stuff, that alone will create total resistance, the men just shut down and go away and we sit waiting for him to come back, I mean how miserable is that?

    What worked for me is trying different methods, I began to investigate how to trigger attraction in a man, I literally took notes, I began to stop doing things that turned him off and created distance and began to stick with the male attraction triggers that he seemed to respond to positively…magic.

    Good luck, I know you can do it Nancy!



  70.  #70janjune on January 16, 2010 at 12:35 am

    oh turtle girl!
    your tri fecta of horribleness just about covered it all…
    you just laid the whole thing out there, and i could see alot of me in your description of your role, too.

    isn’t it funny how the thing that reels us in is the sex … and how quickly that *peters out*…. 🙂 hmmfpghahaha!!



  71.  #71Kay on January 16, 2010 at 12:38 am

    Also Nancy another thing I learned from Christian it has to be HIS IDEA or he’s going to be resistant. You can’t talk a man into something like marriage and love and attraction, you can’t talk him into marrying you, you don’t make marriage attractive by giving him a list of reasons why he should marry you and love you enough to marry you…HE HAS TO FEEL IT…If he is not FEELING enough that attractive good feeling he needs not to resist, he’s not budging.

    Also you have to KNOW how he feels about marriage and his emotional maturity level to deal with this kind of deep bond….there are some fears swimming around there as well…something you may can explore but don’t be obvious about it.

    Maybe losing you could trigger him into realizing how important you are, maybe you making YOU more important than him and putting your needs, wants and priorities before him will trigger him into the thought of losing a good woman from his life but the main thing I know is you won’t get what you want by having long thought out draining discussions.

    Find another way, you can do it.



  72.  #72janjune on January 16, 2010 at 12:49 am

    nancy,
    was so glad to get back on here and see you still here.

    sounds like you’re white-knuckling the first two weeks really well!

    i feel so happy that you could identify with a piece of my process that might take you further into your own journey. i feel alot of respect for you, making the choice you have made and the process you have chosen to take yourself through.
    … it gets easier as you go…



  73.  #73mary on January 16, 2010 at 12:50 am

    i’m just fast-forwarding through to catch up from being out of town!

    hello Orchard:

    i agree with Rori about circular dating. and… there’s an amazing, fantastic eBook by Homer Macdonald that i bought a few years ago. it was SO WORTH IT! he also says circular dating works.

    http://www.stopyourdivorce.com/



  74.  #74Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:52 am

    i feel sad cuz i dont know how to give my speech with male attractive triggers.

    feelings?

    i feel confused and sad

    i dont want to be hurt and get bladder infections. and im feeling kinda hopeless going on this way just stabbing in the dark (haha)

    it would feel good to take a time and learn from each other what pleases us (me) one at a time —>

    i dont want to just keep on the way we are doing. i felt surprised last time that there were things that came to mind to me of how i like to be pleased.

    i feel sad thinking that YOU wont let me teach you how to please me

    grrr

    i feel like im stumbling along



  75.  #75Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:53 am

    im trying to “talk him into” taking like a “session” where i teach him how to please me

    it feels lean forwardy and agenda ish



  76.  #76janjune on January 16, 2010 at 12:59 am

    daria,
    you just gave a really good power speech:

    i feel confused and sad

    i dont want to be hurt and get bladder infections. and im feeling kinda hopeless going on this way just stabbing in the dark (haha)

    it would feel good to take a time and learn from each other what pleases us (me) one at a time —>

    i dont want to just keep on the way we are doing. i felt surprised last time that there were things that came to mind to me of how i like to be pleased.

    i feel like im stumbling along



  77.  #77Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:59 am

    maybe he wont call me and then i wont have to say anything!

    wow

    but i know he will call me and i feel sad i will “hurt” him because its about sex

    that old belief that men are very insecure about sex, protect their ego, blah blah

    what about MY body

    my body is telling me this is not feeling good

    i feel sad

    this guy really feels like a good friend, easy to be with, etc etc

    hmm

    how do i feel?

    i feel calm

    i am moving gracefully away from u

    i moved gracefully away from u



  78.  #78janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:00 am

    hi kay!

    love your comments!



  79.  #79Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:02 am

    Janjune –

    does this not sound directive?

    it would feel good to take a time and learn from each other what pleases us (me) one at a time —>

    cuz i feel like that is my “agenda”

    oh
    i can say

    if i were to continue having sex with you, it would feel good to take a time … etc…

    and also i would need to be romanced, taken on dates, etc

    i keep wanting to say “otherwise we can still be friends”

    but maybe i dont want to say that

    it would feel cool to be his friend. it would feel even cooler to be more

    mmm

    i feel confused



  80.  #80Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:03 am

    i feel kinda hopeless like im not gonna get what i want. and i dont like feeling that way

    rrrrr

    i feel frustrated



  81.  #81janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:10 am

    but nancy,
    adding on to what kay was saying,

    the MAIN thing to remember about what rori says is to keep your focus on YOU.
    just as you have been doing.

    i feel afraid that if you think too much about what he thinks or why men do that or why men say xyz or thisnthat then the focus goes back on him…

    so, keeping focused on Y-O-U is the tough job now, but doable.
    you could think of it like, well i’ll find out why men do that later, not now…. now is for me to find out about ME.

    but really, it doesn’t make a hoot why they do it.

    we just know we don’t LIKE it and that’s NOT what we want in a relationship and that’s all we need to know…



  82.  #82janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:16 am

    well daria,
    in a way it might not matter (to me) if it was just a sexual relationship meaning if the purpose was just for Y-O-U and i emphasize Y-O-U:) to get sex.
    you mentioned he was just as friend…
    i guess i’m thinking of it that you don’t really want to have a lasting relationship with him… you know that both of you are filling that need and you both know it’s going nowhere else…
    although you did say you’d like for him to love you.



  83.  #83janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:17 am

    still i really don’t see that much wrong with using your comments on here as a power speech…
    just tweak it up a little…?



  84.  #84janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:22 am

    well, okay it sounds like you’d like it to be more…

    but still, if you’re going to talk to him about it i actually like what i quoted you as saying… to me it felt very truthful and didn’t sound directive to my brain.



  85.  #85Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:22 am

    janjune youre right!

    i guess what i was feeling was afraid that he’d feel hurt and rejected…

    thereby get angry and maybe reject ME!

    which would feel bad

    but thats imaginary and probably won’t happen

    even if it were to happen, (i feel tense right now) i would feel my feelings and grow

    mm that felt calming

    i love my feelings!



  86.  #86Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:23 am

    thank you for helping me!

    yes it is a sex thing, my sexploration.

    as ive gotten to know him i feel good wiht him. i would like it to be more (now)

    i am changing my mind hehe my goddess entitlement

    so yeah

    that would feel cool also.

    i feel worried that he wont often be able to visit me if i dont visit him

    well

    if he wants to he will

    i feel freer as im writing!



  87.  #87janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:27 am

    yes,
    i feel like he knows the score and so do you.
    … enjoying one another
    and if that’s what your time together is all about
    and if that’s ALL it’s about,
    then you should be able to say
    I feel
    I don’t want
    and not have it hurt him.

    if he’s mature emotionally.



  88.  #88janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:29 am

    but daria,
    just to get the whole concept pulled together here,

    don’t forget about rori’s warning about we sometimes start out just wanting to have sex, but then women are put together emotionally so that they eventually CONNECT witht he man they’re having sex with.

    just don’t want you to get hurt.



  89.  #89Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:29 am

    right.
    i don’t know if hes mature immotionaly or whatever.

    i dont want to have sexploration with him anymore. now i want to date.

    i feel worried he’ll sound disappointed and mad and that won’t feel good

    i feel confident i will grow from this

    =)

    i am judging him as not a good sexploration partner for him because the hurting and bladder infections

    but! i Did learn a lot, and i’m even learning now, on how to be and grow in this situation



  90.  #90janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:32 am

    i posted this comment and lost it—o here it goes again–

    just to pull the whole concept together…

    don’t forget what rori says about women eventually actually emotionally and spiritually (i think) connecting with the men we have sex with… whether we want to or not it happens, it’s just the way we’re put together emotionally.

    just don’t want you to get hurt.



  91.  #91janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:34 am

    oh!! that’s funny!… i was so busy wondering where my lost post went, i didn’t see you were over it already!



  92.  #92Sherry on January 16, 2010 at 1:37 am

    I am trying not to freak out here! Just like a lovely goddess told me on here, when I decided not to stress over talking about this issues, they came up naturally. I’m not good with the feeling messages yet, but I did say how I felt. I just didn’t start with the “I feel” most of the time. I was able to wait after saying something and let him respond. That was very hard!

    What I figured out while talking to him about my feelings, was it was the sex that was bothering me! Don’t get me wrong, it is amazing! In every way amazing lol. But, I realized I’m not comfortable giving of myself like that without a commitment. It is over stepping my boundaries and I feel like I was giving the most intimate parts of myself without getting all of him in return. That feels icky to me. It feels wrong. It feels like I am giving too much? We agreed not to sleep together. It was a mutual decision. I don’t know what his reason is, but right now I don’t feel the need to know.

    We have stopped the sexual aspect before. At one time or the other one of us has asked to quit for different reasons. We always change our minds. Give in. Like I said, it is amazing! But, I really feel that you girls are so inspiring that I might be able to stuck to it this time. I can’t afford Rori’s programs, but I read her emails and am trying the tools I know. Baby steps.

    I told him “I want you but I don’t want to be the object of someone’s lust. I want to be because someone actually really and legitimately wants to be with me. I deserve that.” He said “that’s true, you weren’t just an object to me.” I said “that’s not what I was implying.” Then I went through some things that happened before with us. I can’t remember what he said but it wasn’t I actually really legitimately want to be with you. I told him that I have been fighting with myself and actually prayed for God to help me not want him so much. He said “well we’ll stop. It seems best.” I told him we already have lol. We haven’t had sex for 2 weeks lol where has he been?

    I know I need to learn how to use I feel instead of I want. I just get caught up in my head a lot!

    I’m going to read the website alias girl and Kay mentioned. But, I was wondering, could one or some of you explain to me about passive/agressive behavior? I know the I want you and shit is coming. It always does and I always cave. I’m not sure which one of us is Toxic – it may be both of us! I’m just confused as f#*k and I want to try to be prepared for it when it comes.

    Thanks to all of you for being an inspiration and giving me strength 🙂



  93.  #93Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:41 am

    thanks janjune. i actually believe thats a limiting belief.

    the whether i want it to or not it happens.

    like my ex who i had sex with who is now in love with me

    or my other ex who i no longer want to have sex with really, i dont feel attracted to him

    or …etc

    ANYWAY

    i am starting to feel bonded and thats cool…

    i think its interestng and nice and part of my exploration

    i too don’t want to feel bad

    i think its a good time for me to pull back now from the sexploration at his house

    dating can maybe bring more sexploration

    and also i realize that i do feel attracted to him, emotionally, i mean i felt that even before the sex, the first two times we had sex were good timing for me

    like i asked the universe for sex!

    and i got it

    but now i dont want to start a sexual relationship wiht an emotional barrier, because i DO feel emotionally drawn to him from even before

    i feel interested in being a Goddess and having him feel emotionally drawn to me

    more than a friend he trusts (which is cool anyway seeing how it was an insta-trust between us)



  94.  #94janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:48 am

    i don’t know whether rori’s caution is a limiting belief or not … i know she said it though! 🙂 🙂 🙂



  95.  #95Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:53 am

    i think she says with most women. which could mean over 50%. i used to think i was one of those and it was my launching pad for creative imaginary starship relationships. now i dont think that and my imaginary relationship creation has grounded completely



  96.  #96Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:54 am

    i am aware that this feels like it is happening in this particular case.



  97.  #97Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:55 am

    of course sex bonds women – he must realize that i am giving him all of myself – oh surely this is meant to be – vrrroooooom into outer space



  98.  #98Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:57 am

    i feel good having sex – mm – sex feels exciting – i feel good my body feeling pleased – i want to learn more about my body and pleasure —- ahhh lays on grass instead



  99.  #99janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:02 am

    sherry,
    passive aggressive is when you *say* one thing bc you don’t have the guts to say what you really think, and then behind someone’s back you do another. or you say you didn’t *mean* that. or you *get back at them* when you’ve said things are alright between you…. it can take many forms,
    but its always deceptive
    always subtle
    always meant to harm.



  100.  #100janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:04 am

    sherry

    “I can’t remember what he said but it wasn’t I actually really legitimately want to be with you. ”

    very perceptive of you to remember this….



  101.  #101janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:06 am

    well daria,
    you’re a woman on a mission!!



  102.  #102Kay on January 16, 2010 at 2:27 am

    Hi Janjune, thanks for the sweet hello (:

    I just want to elaborate on something Janjune said, I do believe it’s important to understand men, I do feel it’s important to know why they do what they do and as Christian says give what you want to get back, distancing is just a SIGNAL, a sign post and sometimes just knowing that can make a huge impact on you and the man, I know how important it is to focus on ourselves and it’s true, we should make sure we don’t neglect ourselves in front of a man and even when were alone and don’t have them in our lives, self care and self focus is very important but I also believe unless women learn to stop doing behaviors that feel natural for the woman but feel deeply uncomfortable for the man it will always be a disconnect.

    I don’t want to make Janjune’s perspective irrelevant, everyone’s perspective is equally as important and helpful but I see nothing wrong with learning male psychology, learning what triggers a man negatively and positively and implementing that in your love life/relationship. It’s the little understandings that can make a huge difference in a relationship.

    Loving ourselves and learning how to love others is very important as well. Sometimes we get so caught up with what we want and our own unmet needs that we forget how the other persons feel. It’s like peddling a product, in Nancy’s case her product is marriage and if she doesn’t sell her product in a way that says hey you need this, this is good for you, this is good for us, this will enhance and better your life he won’t buy. He has to FEEL like marriage will enhance his life with you more than being single or he won’t feel the urgency or need to go forward.

    I do feel it’s important that Nancy understands that all those heavy conversations about marriage has set a very negative feeling/negative tone…She has to change and most likely he will follow if he’s serious about her being in his life.



  103.  #103Kay on January 16, 2010 at 2:41 am

    When I say change I mean change as in attitude. There’s a saying in our home let go and let God. She has to let go of her need to have this particular man be her husband and trust that everything will be okay, trust that there is a higher power guiding her to the right place with the right man.

    Letting go feels like an open palm…clinch your fist tightly, that’s how most of us feel, like a big balled up fist full of tension over a man, but then letting go is simply opening up your palm, ahhhh it feels good, now you feel relaxed, happy, like you let it all go, you let go of trying to control a man into marrying by having these heavy discussions, you just let go, you go out and circular date, you smile, you go get a cup of coffee with a great guy, it feels like your taking care of yourself despite what’s going on in the relationship, the problems are still there but it’s not your main focus, your not letting the problems burden and worry you so much that you can’t take care of you.



  104.  #104alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 5:12 am

    sherry hang in there. btw i wasn’t actually recommending that other website because i know nothing about it or the products or anything. it was something mary had mentioned and it just resonated with me. so i can’t really endorse it as something useful or good or helpful because i don’t know.

    i hope you can get rori’s ebook soon. it is a great foundation for all her work.

    for me, practicing “i feel” with ANYONE and EVERYONE and also circular dating helped me out of being obessed with any one particular man.

    baby step by baby step. i feel supportive and glad you are here.



  105.  #105Rachel on January 16, 2010 at 8:52 am

    I need a little help. Guy A and I had a pretty good conversation last night … worked through alot of things. But at one point, near the end, he asked my why i’m not as “turned on” sexually. I didn’t know how to answer that.

    The answer is … because he’s stopped doing so many of the little romantic things that made me feel connected and loved. He doesn’t say the tender little things he used to or send love notes throughout the day, etc.

    Things are better between us and I’m leaning back and receiving what he is giving. BUT… I can’t just “hop back in the sack” when I have felt basically abandoned for months!

    So… how can I tell him this without leaning forward? It feels like if I verbalize this, I’ll be giving him instructions on how to row the boat. And I don’t want him doing or saying things just because I “asked” for them!

    What I’ve been doing for now is trying to respond very warmly every time he does something romantic or says something warm and loving. But he asked me point-blank and I don’t feel good about how I answered.

    The truth is, I don’t feel turned on by him right now. I feel like I just want to be held and cherished for a long time before we move back into anything sexual.

    Any ideas?



  106.  #106tinque on January 16, 2010 at 9:02 am

    Rachel –
    “I have felt like I was abandoned for months. So I feel hesitant now. I don’t want to rush back into a sexual thing. It would feel better to me if we take our time.”

    Something like this…
    xxoo



  107.  #107Sherry on January 16, 2010 at 9:40 am

    janjune thank you for explaining. I do not do or say anything to him out of trying to harm him or punish him. I am just learning what I want vs. what doesn’t feel good. I don’t want my confusion to be passive/agressive behavior.

    alias girl – I am planning on getting one of Rori’s programs when I get my tax return check. Should I start with the e-book or is there one more suitable to my situation? Thank you for the encouragement!

    I didn’t sleep much at all last night. Kept thinking about all of this. I have kept myself in this situation for 4 years now. I know I love him but I also know I haven’t given it my all because deep down I’ve had the feeling he wasn’t totally invested. There is a reason I have always held back and it is the vibe I get from him, I think.

    We have both continued to date. My version of circular dating is not what Rori is talking about! I realize I haven’t been open to other men. I just more or less used these dates to make me feel like I wasn’t investing myself totally to him. But, I was still only interested in being with him. I need to re-read the circular dating articles.

    There was one girl he dated last Spring. I could tell he liked her a lot. Beyond the physical. Things didn’t work out – timing and such is what I was told. Anyway, they have a date tonight and that is what started the talk last night. I feel very panicky about it.

    So, is this the hard part? Saying what you want in your life and then leaning back and waiting to see what happens next? I have plans tonight with friends and I start a new job Monday, but in between I feel like he is all I am thinking about. Obsessing about. How do I make it stop?



  108.  #108janjune on January 16, 2010 at 10:03 am

    i feel so wide-eyed and awake and confident, reading about how fast rori’s Tools are working for the new-to-the-blog goddesses.
    i feel building confidence to go on for myself.

    am so looking forward to next week.

    Hey! i haven’t uttered words like that in a long time!



  109.  #109janjune on January 16, 2010 at 10:10 am

    i feel new birth.
    type of experience– not spiritual.

    emotional.

    i can’t say that ‘m feeling the old wounded places are healing bc i’m feeling so much more aware of the health aspect of this thing now (this experience) than of the healing aspect of it.

    so it feels more like being pink and fresh and new and whole and alive and vibrant than it does feeling the ahhhhhh of being stitched up and having the bleeding stopped.



  110.  #110janjune on January 16, 2010 at 10:28 am

    kay,
    yes, i agree!
    your comment:
    “I do feel it’s important that Nancy understands that all those heavy conversations about marriage has set a very negative feeling/negative tone…She has to change and most likely he will follow if he’s serious about her being in his life.”

    i felt like nancy had accomplished this by her comments:
    “If anyone’s interested in my update, I have now not seen my man for 10 days. He’s called a couple of times, said he missed me, but no plans. It would seem he took my speech (i’m not sure how long i can continue to be in our relationship without being married) and is taking time to decide right now whether it’s yes or no for him. Or maybe he’s just trying to starve me into backing down. I’m backing up and backing out, but I won’t back down. I deserve the love of my life. I don’t believe he owes it to me, but I do owe it to myself.
    With each day comes more clarity. I’m using the tools. Rori, thanks for “Gracefully Moving Away”. SOOOO helpful.

    I see my mistake. I gave my power speech right on the heels of making a huge forward lunge at the relationship and pushing at it, rather than following the steps and giving the power speech when I was leaned back and at the wall. My anger pushed it out of me when I didn’t expect it. So it all feels very sticky and tricky right now. I’m working on my independence and circular dating, energetically stepping back and not calling or contacting him. I’m feeling emotionally exhausted from the ripping sensation elicited by suddenly having no real contact with my man. But, I figure I made the speech and backing down, giving in isn’t the answer. Last night, I began having my very first feelings, in 20 months of the relationship, that maybe he’s not the one I want. I certainly wouldn’t accept this behavior from a man I had just begun dating!”

    so i was feeling like encouraging nancy to
    YES!!!! KEEP TAKING CARE OF Y-O-U!!!!
    Feeling that that’s a key to staying in the good place i felt by her comments she was already in…

    Saturday, 16 January 2010 @ 2:27am



  111.  #111janjune on January 16, 2010 at 10:30 am

    that is so weird that the date and time on this last comment says it’s 2 o’clock in the morning…. what happened!??



  112.  #112Kay on January 16, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Oh precious Janjune thank you for the clarity, I totally missed that encouraging statement from Nancy, never saw it, thanks for the clarity and yes I totally agree with you she should continue to focus on herself, absolutely perfect advice you gave.



  113.  #113Ema Lee on January 16, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Hello to all!

    I just wanted to express an idea that came to my mind recently, and which is connected to what Rori says about how we were brought up and what we were taught to do as girls. I think its not only the upbringing but also a pressure of the society (at least in my country, that by the way its supposed to have very modern and “emancipated” mentality) that basically crushes a woman’s self esteem by more or less indirectly inducing the idea that without a man (and its even worse now than in the past when there had to be at least marriage) she has no value just by herself, if she is single something must be wrong with her, if she is single she is worthless. I think this induces many women a sense of despair, of age related “deadline” of finally getting “the prince” and be ok in the world, and that’s why many of them cling to the wrong men, taking crumbs and even accepting bad treatment. It completely takes away any idea of choice, of “i can do better than this”. I’m gonna give an example: once i was with a friend in a lingerie shop. Now, shopping for sexy lingerie is supposed to be something fun and pleasant and that you do for YOU. But there was a woman, together with her teenage daughter, and the daughter asked her mom “Do you really think my bf will like this?”, while holding and examining in extreme concentration a damn pair of tangas as if it were a matter of life and death! WTF? I just want to say that what Rori does here is absolutely fantastic and HUGE! Thank you so much Rori!

    Love, Ema



  114.  #114Kay on January 16, 2010 at 10:48 am

    I just read Rori’s newsletter “What To Do If He Stopped Pursuing You” and I just wanted to say thank you Rori, I was feeling down because I’m experiencing this right now plus a bit of PMS going on as well but I dunno your words hit me in my soul, I’m not new at this Rori experience but it’s like I take in your energy much more quickly than I did a year ago and I just turned it all around.

    I suddenly said to myself it’s about me, it’s not about him, it’s not because he’s younger than me as you pointed out, he’s distant yes but me needing him to be close, to be the man I want to feel all my feelings with is creating more angst in me and most likely sending out this desperate overwhelming energy to him and to myself. I did your technique and I feel really good inside.

    After reading your newsletter I just let go of all those icky feelings, just let them drop down into my abdomen and pushed them all out.

    Your statement:
    I filled in the empty places in our conversations, I
    gave him advice when he didn’t ask for it, I allowed
    myself to become so deeply attached to the
    “chemistry” in our relationship that I almost
    FORGOT what it was I WANTED for my LIFE, and I
    focused more and more on how to GET him.

    And this is the one thing that NEVER WORKS.

    The more I focused on him and how we could
    possibly have A REAL LIFE together, the more he
    drifted away.

    I didn’t want to be with a man who still had some
    “growing up” to do.

    But I knew no other way to be with him than to
    put my whole self into it, try to make it REAL and
    life-long, and HELP him “grow up.”

    I didn’t want him just the way he was.

    I wanted him the way I THOUGHT he SOMEDAY
    would be.

    I wanted him already “grown up.”

    Yes he seems to drift away, this time I decided to do nothing, lean back and allow myself to feel and transform all the icky feelings. I don’t feel good chasing him anymore, I don’t want to. I don’t want him to do anything he doesn’t wanna do. I’m okay with him drifting away, scary and not something I’m used to allowing but I don’t want to control my relationships with men anymore, it feels masculine and hard and not pretty. To quote you “That sense of urgency I felt – that I had to MAKE
    it happen – made me feel terrible inside”

    You seem to always send out a newsletter that describes exactly what’s going on in my life right now…How do you do that? It’s magic hehe

    Thanks!



  115.  #115Kay on January 16, 2010 at 10:57 am

    Hi Ema I totally agree with your views, I feel so worthless inside even when I’m strong and know that my worth is precious and being single is perfectly okay.

    Honestly I just don’t know what to do with myself, all my life it’s been looking for a boy than a man, it was cute when I was younger and now that I’m older it feels desperate and needy and clingy for me. I hate it, I hate this whole male female dynamic that’s been set up for us in the western world, I hate how it makes me feel. I feel invisible sometimes, this is a weird space to be in. Not sure anymore but I just keep on keeping on.

    Part of me wants to throw in the towel and join a convalescent and the other part of me wants to keep learning and exploring and broadening my ideas and views. I will be 40 in a few years, god I hope the light comes on like I hear most women say, I’m a late bloomer and I have been dealing with growing pains since my 20’s, I think this is the most emotional relief I have had since my teen years and 20’s, hopefully it will only get better as I grow older.



  116.  #116dorothea on January 16, 2010 at 11:02 am

    Dear Sirens,
    My head is in a loop (and has been for a while) over some stupid shit I’m going through with my friend who lied to me about a money thing. Would you please recommend some movies to watch? It’ll be good distraction:)



  117.  #117Sherry on January 16, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Kay you explained how I feel! When I read Rori’s newsletter this morning I felt like she had sent it just for me! It is the rollercoaster of emotion that is finally taking a toll on me. I don’t want to chase any more either! I don’t want him if he doesn’t love me! The power to do nothing, to not try and make him love me, that is what I need. That is where my journey is at. Trying to find this power inside of me.

    I am scared I am not strong enough…



  118.  #118janjune on January 16, 2010 at 11:17 am

    but yes, for myself,
    AFTER i get myself lined out and firmly placed
    where i am no longer abandoning my*SELF* for other people, their feelings, their wants, how *they* look at things, then yesyesyes!!! i want to know what men are thinking.(a little bit).
    i still feel, for me though, after learning rori’s program, my life with men from now on will always be about me.
    \
    let them take care of them selves. they are big boys. they know what they want, who they want, what they will do what they won’t do…. MUCH more than women… we bend and try to please…but them, no i see very plainly now that they either want me or they don’t and unlike me as a woman, *they* know it from the very beginning. there is no negotiating or bargaining or convincing with them, they know it from the beginning.

    I can see that in the online profiles men put up.

    they are looking for *her* and nobody else will do and until they find her, it seems to *me* like yeh, they’ll take the sex I would put before them, they’d take me out, call me girlfriend, let me cook for them and eat my food and play house maybe. live at my house or invite me to live at theirs but,…
    armed with the knowledge of just *knowing* they won’t change their version of happy ever after to suit me, they just won’t…. they may date me for 100 years… but they’re still looking…. knowing that is HUGE!!!

    and that attraction is not the same thing. they can be “falling-all-over-you” type attracted, but it’s not what rori is talking about. that’s the get-in-your-pants type attraction that can be mistaken for love.

    no i know ive got to look for something different than chemistry.



  119.  #119janjune on January 16, 2010 at 11:21 am

    i can’t wait to experience the expereince of feeling/not feeling the difference with men. sitting there in their presence and knowing what i am experienceing and just stiing there and *experiencing* the difference in their energy.

    ohh, now i’m getting a little excited about circular dating!

    but i know i’m just not ready yet. i know i need to keep working on the foundational aspects of my life,
    putting my energy there first.
    TAKING CARE OF MY*SELF*!!!
    oh yeh!

    ha! so when i’m ready for that man who is capable, and he shows up and STEPS up… 🙂

    so for this week, i will continue to circular date, married woman style.



  120.  #120Carla on January 16, 2010 at 11:29 am

    ‘Lo Goddesses,

    Turtle Girl totally telling it like it IS!
    Tina doting on herself which leads to lots more adoration.
    May Robin receive the red-hot kisses she craves.
    Daria’s body is her temple. Any man with her HAS TO treat it with worship.
    Kay is overflowing with keen insights. Kudos!

    And Orchard, have you thought about writing at least ten times the statement: I forgive and release my husband?

    When I’m having emotional difficulties with a partner, just writing something like this seems to send a message that they pick up on an unconscious level. Orchard, even if he doesn’t come back to you when you think he should, or doesn’t ever, the reason you do this forgiving and releasing is so all that hurt and pain isn’t blocking all that wants to come in and love and support you. You absolutely deserve that love and support. Let it in!

    Peace,

    C-



  121.  #121janjune on January 16, 2010 at 11:35 am

    YAY KAY!



  122.  #122janjune on January 16, 2010 at 11:36 am

    WOOHOO Sherry!



  123.  #123Kay on January 16, 2010 at 11:38 am

    @janjune…you said

    they are looking for *her* and nobody else will do and until they find her, it seems to *me* like yeh, they’ll take the sex I would put before them, they’d take me out, call me girlfriend, let me cook for them and eat my food and play house maybe. live at my house or invite me to live at theirs but,…
    armed with the knowledge of just *knowing* they won’t change their version of happy ever after to suit me, they just won’t…. they may date me for 100 years… but they’re still looking…. knowing that is HUGE!!!

    Amen sista….you just put me down with a new point of view and your right. Now I will ponder this statement and see how it fits into my life, my world and I will definitely ponder this statement as I go out in the world and deal with men, a very profound statement.

    Loved your statement, loved it!



  124.  #124Kay on January 16, 2010 at 11:42 am

    I felt a great emotional shift through Janjune’s words, I never looked at a man’s inability to not let go of his dreamgirl no matter how much I give and how great I am…wow



  125.  #125janjune on January 16, 2010 at 11:57 am

    love your in-a-nutshell version Kay:

    “man’s inability to not let go of his dreamgirl no matter how much I give and how great I am…”

    oh yeh goddesses and sirens!…
    stay on our steeds and ride!…
    I’m not yet at my happy ever after
    but I know
    IT *WILL* COME
    Happy ever after will come *TO* me !!… i don’t have to go after it!!!

    i love u rori!



  126.  #126Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    guess who has no bladder pain this morning!!!!

    the magic was three dropper fulls of echinacea tincture every hour or two, no eating, drinking 10-12 liters of water, and Fu Yin Tai nani wash



  127.  #127Turtle Girl on January 16, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    When I think about what letting go means I love this description. Picture you have a bunch of sand from the beach in your open palm If you let be still leave your palm OPEN and not clench it into a fist – the sand will just stay right there. If you try and grip it too hard, it slips out between your fingers and so by trying to hold on to it, you lose it. If you let go, it stays.

    Someone mentioned PMS. Ohhhhhh that is such a terrible thing for so many of us. I do not have to deal with that anymore but I tell you what I did that almost totally eliminated my PMS when I had problems. I stopped eating all grocery store or feed lot meat. That’s right. The bovine growth hormones that are in those cows really messed with my female hormones.
    I started going to a butcher that only had clean grass fed cows and chickens, etc. That was the ticket.
    No more bad PMS. Just like Rori talks about not eating sugar-this shit really messes with us girls. Get you food as clean as you can and just watch how your emotions calm waaaaayy down.



  128.  #128Kay on January 16, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    Thanks Turtle girl, I need a diet over haul, I will look into your suggestions about the meat and I know I need to give up sugar, I like Rori’s word intend, I intend to focus a huge amount of my attention to my diet and slowly change things. My PMS throws me into a loop and yesterday I cried for no reason, I felt like a bowl of crap LOL



  129.  #129Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Turtle Girl are you by any chance in the SF bay area. I really want to find some butcher to get good meat. online i found sources that sell a minimum of a quarter cow which i cant store lol

    i feel amused thinking of myself carrying a quarter cow on my shoulder, leg sticking out… hahahah



  130.  #130Daria on January 16, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    I feel really excited that that changed your moods Turtle Girl. i am sooo looking forward to getting fresh meat yum!



  131.  #131Turtle Girl on January 16, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    The best relationship I ever had with a man was when I was 42 years old. I was working a job and on the side I was buying and remodeling old Victorian houses and raising my daughter. I had a full life and I loved every minute of the home remodels. I had all these dreams about beautiful climbing fragrant roses clambering over the trellises I built and bead board wainscoting and all sorts of old fashioned romantic charm that went into those home, etc. I was totally in love with myself and my work and dreams for me at the time. He saw what I was and fell in love with me and asked me to marry him after dating for a year.

    I declined, and that is another story.

    The point is this.
    I remember how I felt back then. Talk about a Goddess with a capital G!! I had passion and dreams and love and hope and inspiration and focus and goals! I could have cared less what man wanted me at the time. I wanted me! In that same year I had five-I am not kidding ladies-five marriage proposals. I declined them all because I knew they were not right for me. I knew exactly who I was at the time. Now what is the lesson here?

    The reason I am having so much trouble today is because my horse got derailed somehow. I currently do not have any particular passion in my life that I am doing or dreaming of. I have lost my way temporarily and so I end up dating and loving losers, boy-men and so forth. And If I am lost, how can they be on the right track? They can’t. If I do not know what I want right now, how can they know who I am so that they want me?
    I know what I need to do and you do too. Listen to your inner voice.



  132.  #132Turtle Girl on January 16, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    Daria-
    No sweetie I am not in your area. I drive thirty miles out in the country to get mine, but it is worth it. There has to be something in your area. Just go online.
    That is so funny a leg of cow over your shoulder-yeah-we women go a hunting………..I joke with my friends that if this economy gets any worse I am gonna be seriously thinking about road kill……..like granny in Beverly Hillbillies………..too funny………..fresh coon and possum! Yummyy!!!! Oh my, I need to get a life seriously and get off this box. Love to you all each and every day.

    Turtle Girl
    Taking it slow, but taking it.



  133.  #133janjune on January 16, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    daria,
    you can put “mail order steaks” in google.
    a good one is omaha steaks, if they have a special going.
    i don’t buy regularly, just for gifts etc.

    glad you’re feeling better today!



  134.  #134Kay on January 16, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    Turtle Girl I am in the same slump, no passion and thus I’m either attracting passionate men that notice my lack of passion for the exception of my attempts to make him my passion which in turn creates tension and conflict and the men disappear on me or man-boys that are toxic and have mantrums all day long, want me to be the relationship type of men, so currently I’m single, If I had to be really honest and insightful about my dilemma I think use men as an excuse to find my passion and as an excuse for my failures but maybe it’s the fact that I’m not happy with myself, not happy with the fact that I feel stuck in this dark uncreative void with nothing to be passionate with, nothing to be passionate about. I have every intentions of changing this step by step.

    Don’t worry Turtle Girl you are not alone, I’m in the same dark space right now.



  135.  #135alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    tinque i loved your response to rachel. i had felt befuddled and was trying to imagine what i would do/say and there you gave a simple, yet potent, suggestion. 🙂

    sherry i recommended the e book first because it really gives a great foundation for all of rori’s tools/programs. plus it’s only $20.00.

    janjune you are a lovely creature.



  136.  #136janjune on January 16, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    okay, i keep processing…..

    but…

    butbutbutbut…. 🙂

    i am NOW feeling that when a man comes along
    and steps up, THAT is going to be the right time (for me) to worry about what men think and how to read them and get along with their way of doing things, such as what i believe is in rori’s committment blueprint and even in targeting mr. right.
    and even modern siren.
    probably all of rori;s further work,
    but (for me) i thinkthat comes after the basic step of what’s in the ebook …and maybe the heart connection toolkit.

    i’m feeling yes.

    i guess what i’m feeling right now is that FIRST it has to be “all about me connecting with my own heart”.

    and then i will be ready to make a heart connection with a man.

    but even when ready for that:
    alwaysalwaysalways keeping my heart connection with myself intact and FIRST.
    yes, that sequencing feels right!
    those statements are laying very easily within my beingness, floating around, feeling very safe and comfortable.



  137.  #137janjune on January 16, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    why thank you alias girl!

    i might say you are quite the piece of goddess work yourself!



  138.  #138Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    Kay and janjune,

    You’re awesome! Thanks for your comments. I actually have been reading Christian’s last email about what a man really means when he says “I’m not ready” and about natural attraction – that a man considers a good relationship to be emotional and physical attraction that keeps building… that’s what he sees as a relationship that is moving forward and can be lasting. While I was giong through the last 6 months not talking to him about marriage I listed to the disc from “From Casual to Committed” that talks about the differences between the male and female comittment processes – pretty much daily. I agree, it’s a combination of understanding why what our instincts tell us to do push men away and of following Rori’s steps and using her tools to take care of ourselves, not to tolerate crumbs and crap and to stay on our bridges – so both of your comments felt like a total “You, Nancy, are on the right track!” and are incredibly powerful for me right now. I can’t thank you enough! And my man has helped me, but telling me, “When you do this, it makes ME feel like the relationship is moving backwards.”

    You know, I feel like no matter how well I understand what I’m learning intellectually about how to bring a man close and not get in the way, when it comes to taking action, I feel like a bull in a china shop! I finally get the hang of not talking to him about the relationship, brought him much closer and then gave my speech at the wrong time, without having followed the steps. It’s like I have to make every mistake myself in order to learn this. I just have to laugh about it, it feels so ironic. I feel gentle towards myself with this, don’t get me wrong, it’s just feels SO frustrating. But now I get it. I have to follow Rori’s steps, in order. And I feel more ready to do that than ever before. I feel very sure of myself – this is about ME and MY life and having what I want in it and I won’t settle for anything less. I am so excited… it’s a huge step for me, to begin to feel DISINTERESTED in a relationship that looks like it may not become what I want. Yahoo!



  139.  #139Lola on January 16, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    Turtle Girl

    I am fascinated by what you are saying here.
    I stopped doing work that i loved when my children’s father left – I just wanted to go out, do a job come home and not have to think about the work I had left behind.

    I have just started planning a new course/career and my confidence is already climbing. I suddenly have dreams that don’t include a man or depend on one.

    Since not living for me the men I have attracted have not been very nice (or been imaginary!)

    Kay

    Second huge insight!!!
    Me too! I have been using men as my ‘passion’ and that’s why I totally over invest and over function and over focus.

    I feel excited by these two huge insights.

    I also feel amused at the thought of getting a quarter cow in a fridge!!!



  140.  #140Melanie on January 16, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    Daria, I have struggled with going out by myself, too. In my case, it’s because most of my interests and activities are solitary and done at home. I don’t really LIKE going out to do stuff unless I am with a friend or a guy — because the company is the only thing that makes it enjoyable for me. However, I have recently discovered that there are several country music concerts coming up in our area — artists that I really like, that I enjoy singing and dancing around the kitchen to their songs. So…. I am seriously considering buying myself a ticket and going to a concert ALONE. I feel excited that I have found something I might like doing by myself that is actually out in public! I feel excited to realize that I don’t have to do a lot of DIFFERENT things out in the world — just one thing that I like and can do whenever I feel like it feels great. Now, hopefully I will not talk myself out of it!



  141.  #141Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    Kay,

    I’m feeling like listening to “Natural and Lasting Attraction’ might be a good thing for me right now… have you heard it? Do you think it’d help me beef up my ‘lessening the drama’ tools?



  142.  #142Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    oops, meant to say that my man has helped me BY telling me that what he sees as my drama makes him feel it’s moving backwards.



  143.  #143Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    Melanie I am with you and i feel excited! last nite i was thinking about this and i considered concerts too! as a good place to start

    part of me feels afraid seeing concerts like a “club” atmosphere with big crowds and music,

    it feels safer and less awkward than a club

    I am going to look and invest in a ticket! I KNOW there will be many men.

    i feel excited and weird thinking that they will say you are here by YOURSELF??

    but hey I enjoy music

    it will feel cool and i bet i will meet people

    i feel a lil scared and unsafe

    WHYYYYYY! i feel whiny. I feel unsafe because i’m told its unsafe to go to clubs alone etc, something could happen

    BUT that doesnt usually happen to me, im a very street smart girl, I mean i take chances meeting people on the street all the time… so I feel limited by this not safe to go alone idea, someone could kidnap me and put something in my drink … but in other situations with even more of a danger factor i feel perfectly powerful and able to care for myself

    i love my voices and triggers!

    oh

    and i want healing for this!

    thank you!!

    and thank you for my bladder healing!!



  144.  #144Daria on January 16, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    Nancy what does he THINK?



  145.  #145janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    ohmagosh! yeh!!!!
    nancy, what does he THINK???



  146.  #146Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Melanie,

    I went to 2 concerts alone a couple of years ago, before I met my current guy who also loves to go and it was REALLY good for me.

    Hell, men do it all the time! What finally got me to do it was that Neil Young came to Seattle and he was my first musical love, so I just had to go. The really great thing about it was, since I only needed one ticket, I ended up with a seat directly in front of him, about 8 rows back. I was surrounded by people with VIP passes and Paul Allen was in the seat BEHIND me!!! It was an amazing experience. I was very energized by it.

    Then I went to see Alanis by myself and met two very nice women, sisters sitting next to me and we communicated back and forth for a couple of months after that, a nice by product of going by myself.

    I go to the movies alone when my guy is withdrawn. No biggie. I went last weekend, found a seat in the dark cuz I hate previews. After my eyes adjusted, I looked down my row of seats to see another woman, about my age, sitting there alone. And I have friends who have used the movies a lot as a self date when single. I feel like it’s a cheating self date, a bit, because I don’t interact with people in a movie and don’t flirt or anything, so it’s a safer ‘date’. But, still, if I want to see a movie, I’m not missing it because there’s no one to go with me.

    I don’t have many female friends here where I live and am feeling desparate to find some. I’ve been asking how to do this. So far, long distance friends have suggested book club. Any other ideas? Anyone here in the Seattle area?

    Nancy



  147.  #147Melanie on January 16, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    Question about Leaning Back:

    What am I supposed to do with text messages that don’t ask questions or really give me anything to respond to? For example, TN man says,”You are welcome.” (after I thanked him for something he said.) Do I not text anything and wait for him to text something I can respond to? In this case, I did not respond.

    A couple days later, he texted again (I was so glad that he did, when I hadn’t contacted him at all in the meantime!). He texted that he made it home safely from his trip. I texted “Glad you made it home safely” and I avoided asking him questions. Then he texted, “So, how have you been?” I texted and told him how I have been and a few interesting things I have been doing. I ended with “How are you?” He texted that he was glad to hear I was doing well and that he is tired from his trip and is adjusting to being home again.

    Now, I have not yet responded to that text, because he didn’t ask me anything and I can’t think of a way to respond that is Leaning Back. There are a zillion things I would like to say/ask, but would that be Leaning Forward? For example, I’d like to ask if he has ever read the book I just started reading. Is that a no-no??

    It feels like he wants connection with me, and I do adore him, but I feel like this is gonna get old really quickly if I have to refrain from opening new topics of conversation and wait for him to do so. The other thing is that he really likes that I am interesting! But the thing that makes me interesting to him is that I bring up interesting stuff to talk about. He likes that part of who I am, but am I supposed to stop being that way in order to Lean Back???

    I would love any input about this! Thanks!



  148.  #148Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    janjune, daria,

    i’m not following… i mean, i totally get it about not asking him how he feels, i don’t ask him that. but i’m not following your question… gimme some context? ie, what part of my post are you referring to?

    he does tell me what he feels… sees it as being an evolved man is my guess.

    just an aside: these poor guys… lol… first we (our popular culture) tell them we want them to be more in touch with their feminine sides… now here we are, telling them that we want to carry the feelings and we want them to lead and think… i see the humor in that.



  149.  #149Sherry on January 16, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    He text me this morning. Got in to the his having problems with me and his lust. This was the reason he asked to not have sex the last time this happened. It was about 4 months ago and it lasted 3 days. Anyway, he starts to explain why he is having problem and I have an ah ha moment. I tell him I think I understand and say if you come from a place of love in your heart than it is good. But, you have no love in your heart for me, only lust, so it’s bad. Is that right? His response? “Pretty much.”

    I feel devastated.

    Last night he tells me I was never just an object and this morning he tells me he only has lust for me? This is why I get so confused!



  150.  #150alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    is “piece of work” negative? if someone is a ‘piece of work?’ i feel weird. it’s ok if it is. i just feel a little unclear.



  151.  #151Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Melanie and Daria,

    I think that if a guy saw you alone at a concert, he would think you were a “cool girl”. I just think he’d think it was very cool that you did that on your own.

    Wow, just remembered that at Neil Young a guy came over to me and hit on my by pretending to lose his coat near my seat. He invited me to go out with him and his friends. I felt too chicken to go and didn’t feel attracted, but it certainly did energize me.



  152.  #152Melanie on January 16, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    is “piece of work” negative? if someone is a ‘piece of work?’

    AG, I used to work with a woman who said that all the time — she was a rough, rowdy type, but she actually meant it quite affectionately when she said it!

    It seems it could go either way, depending on the context. Obviously, if it is said angrily, it would be negative.



  153.  #153Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    alias girl,

    in this case i think it was used in a very positive and playful way, meaning that you are also very lovely and awesome.

    hope i haven’t spoken out of turn!



  154.  #154Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    oops, addressed that to ag when meant to address it to melanie.



  155.  #155Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    double oops, actually, it’s addressed to both of you. LOL



  156.  #156janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    nancy,
    i felt daria was prompting this:
    that when he tells you how he *feels*,
    YOU might begin considering it as a cue to somehow begin to prompt *him* to begin talking you in his
    manly, *I think* messages…. even if he doesn’t know how to do it yet, if you continue to ask him what he thinks when he tells you how he feels, rori says they eventually catch on and love us for it! i don’t know personally, haven’t gotten there yet… but rori has been right so far… 🙂

    yes! 🙂 i so agree with you about confusing the men!! totally have a heart for their confusion with us when they want so badly to connect with us too!

    i do feel like what rori says about when we just stand firmly in our goddessness, soft on the outside, strong on the inside, that they will just naturally begin to respond back to us in their strong on the ourside, soft on the inside kind of way.
    if they have that capacity.



  157.  #157Melanie on January 16, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Nancy, thanks for your encouragement about the concert! My mind tells me that the audience will be mostly couples and women (it is Phil Vassar — don’t know if he appeals to single guys or not!) But I still want to go — with no agenda of meeting guys — because I like music and why shouldn’t I go enjoy a show? And maybe I will be surprised and there will be a really cool guy there going by himself too! 🙂

    I had thought about hinting to one guy I’m seeing that I would like to go to this concert, but I don’t really like him all that much, don’t want to hint, AND — just like you said — I saw the seating chart online and the best seats left are SINGLE seats (for the same price as worse seats)!!! So, yeah, I might just be brave enough to do this!

    Daria, did you get your tix yet???



  158.  #158alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    hmmm well i googled it. it feels a little backhanded. i do not feel flattered.



  159.  #159Melanie on January 16, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    Wait — men aren’t supposed to tell us how they feel, only what they think?? But I LOVE those rare occasions when a guy tells me how he FEELS! 🙁

    I feel confused about this.



  160.  #160janjune on January 16, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    alias girl!

    no!!! not a bad way!!!
    meant in the way nancy described
    (thank you nancy!)

    “in this case i think it was used in a very positive and playful way, meaning that you are also very lovely and awesome. ”

    meaning in my own words:
    you are funny
    and creative
    and truthful and honest with yourself
    compassionate
    you are inspiring
    and full of goddess integrity.

    All these things comes right through the screen at people and i think many of us learn from you as the one who steps out and does (emotionally scary) things first.

    (i will no longer use that phrase!) 🙂



  161.  #161alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    thank you janjune. i feel embarrassed. and heat in my body and pouty face. and i felt like here i go again “making a mountain out of a molehill” and saying something triggered me more than what you actually said!!!!

    i felt horrible saying something but then if i didn’t i would have created this little resentment and that i was just “keeping the peace” so i could fit in and people would like and people wouldn’t gang up on me if they like me.

    i feel crying. sometimes i feel so confused about the best course of action and do i say something because it was just this small little thing and said in a compliment but i had felt weird and since it is this forum i know i can experiment a little more and then take my skills and new knowledge and experience out into life. so i took the chance to say something.

    so thank you janjnue. i didn’t want to make you feel bad. gosh i feel freaking weird and apologetic. ugh. i feel triggered. and embarassed over this tiny little thing.

    my father used to use that expression all the time. in a deragotory way.

    pshew. ok. i feel super embarrassed. but thank you janjune.

    what is the best course of action in real life? do you let those “little things” that just triggered you hugely go for the sake of not being considered “difficult”??

    this is an honest question because i want to have good working relationships with people. i feel embarassed and heat and pouty face and tears.



  162.  #162janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    alias girl
    i feel upset about the words i used feeling negative on your spirit
    so i’d feel good to say one more thing about it

    when someone is a piece of work, to me it means they are to the core, to the bone, just exactly what they ARE/ they don’t try to hide it , they step out into the world being who they are with NO apologes to anyone!!

    this was the way i meant the phrase.

    that you have stepped out into your goddessiness with no apologiies and you are living it out whether you feel scared or not!!

    as i have said before, i don’t know whether you read it or not, but you are the person on here that i connected with emotionally that made me sit up and take notice of rori’s work bc i was reading the posts about how you felt at work.

    and i connected with your sense of anger and outrage.
    your anger was healing for me.
    it allowed me to learn to eventually tap into my own.
    through your riffs.

    and then seeing you *keep* growing,…
    you step out where i would be scared.
    your bravery in your journey feels like hope to me, *for* me and i think alot of the women on here see you stepping up and out, riding your horse where we’re afraid to go and then you holler back and tell us to come on, it’s okay… 🙂

    so i will leave this alone now, but i feel hope that you will feel the genuiness of these words.



  163.  #163alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    and thank you for all the nice things you said. and thank you for triggering me!!!!

    this was actually a huge trigger. because misunderstandings and misinterpretations happen all the time in life and then people start creating distance and resentments and everything gets murky and next thing i know things are all blown apart.



  164.  #164Melanie on January 16, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    AG! I am teary too, reading your post! I feel proud and happy that you risked sharing your feelings about something you didn’t understand that triggered you! I feel happy that you did not bury your feelings for the sake of “fitting in.” I feel affection for you.

    I, too, have had the same thoughts and feelings about taking those risks. It seems to me that this way of expressing our feelings, “I feel…” without blaming the other person in any way, containing and controlling our energy when we say it, is a good way to handle ALL relationships, not just those with men. xxoo



  165.  #165janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    oh alias girl, i feel so happy that you recovered from what you thought my words meant to quickly!!

    im boohooing right now will be back once i can see again… 🙂



  166.  #166janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    okay,
    no i feel it feels very healthy to say something when a person says something that has a negative connotation to you.

    just like you did.

    asking, what do you mean? this means *this* to me.

    feels very healthy on this end of the interaction.

    i feel happy for your triggering,too.



  167.  #167alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    thank you janjune for saying all that. i feel very appreciative and humbled and sobbing.

    i feel very appreciated. i feel understood. i also feel heat in my body and sweating!

    now that you described how you meant what you said, as a person who just hangs their flag and makes no apologies for who they are. WELL THANK YOU. that feels like the highest compliment to me. truly.

    i feel grateful for your presence here as well and for responding so lovingly to my being triggered.



  168.  #168alias girl on January 16, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    i feel very vulnerable. and heat and sweating still!

    yae. i feel more clear. a little embarrassed still. but supported.

    🙂



  169.  #169janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    i sooo agree… getting triggered feels embarrassing!!!!!! *blush*

    i always feel like
    “WTF”?????
    when it’s over.



  170.  #170janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    i feel this is the beauty, the intelligence, brilliance of rori teaching us triggering:

    your words, alias girl:
    “this was actually a huge trigger. because misunderstandings and misinterpretations happen all the time in life and then people start creating distance and resentments and everything gets murky and next thing i know things are all blown apart.



  171.  #171Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    i feel so proud of all of us here. it feels so good and safe. i’m so grateful.

    i’m also feeling happy and proud of how i’m handling what i’m going through. i’ve made a date with the one woman friend i have here in my area and am leaving in a moment to meet her for some girl time – shopping and dinner.

    i’ll ‘see’ you all later!



  172.  #172janjune on January 16, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    nancy,
    i think linda suggested, or daria, or both
    meetings.com or meetup.com something like that.

    i checked it out—
    dozens of small special interest groups, like people who meet up to talk about organic food sources, rori raye program,… so many groups to pick from!!

    yes it was daria, she said she and LG were thinking about starting up a rori meeting group in their area.

    well, i’m off too.

    love and blessings to all the goddesses and rori



  173.  #173Lisa on January 16, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    Turtle says:

    “The reason I am having so much trouble today is because my horse got derailed somehow. I currently do not have any particular passion in my life that I am doing or dreaming of. I have lost my way temporarily and so I end up dating and loving losers, boy-men and so forth”

    Thank you, this is exactly where I am. So many people have asked recently, “What is your passion?” So once I start working that, life will become clearer. I am reminded of the Air Supply lyrics, “And I don’t know how you do it/Making love out of nothing at all.” Gosh, I am amazed at how long I worked fashioning “nothing at all.”

    Men are direct. At the time, various men who knew both of us said to me, “He is still looking” (as JanJune recognizes); You can change only yourself, and “He offers you crumbs as a carrot on a stick.” This wisdom came from men in their 30’s through 80’s.

    It seems all men know their men rules. they are few and unvarying. For women, we are weavers, and can make a 1,000 scenarios out of a situation.

    But men know, life is simple. Men either adore us, or they ignore us. If pathological, they will abuse us. Three things, basically, and it’s pretty easy when we rip off the veil to figure out which one we are slotted in.

    Mythologist Joseph Campbell said have the passion to “follow your bliss”. That is key. If we have bliss, anything that accrues to us has value, and no one person is indispensable (except ourselves.)



  174.  #174Lisa on January 16, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Thank you, Rori — I had a great understanding this a.m.

    Rori talks of boy/girl energy. The last man I was involved with was “the girl”, despite the Marlboro man mask. I was so off-balance, as most of the men I’d been with were at least The Boy — they pursued me. I was accustomed to rejecting and remaining independent and somewhat aloof.

    This time, I seemed to naturally fall into the opposite role — leaning forward (pursuing) and over-functioning. I identified what was lacking, and filled in the gap. This is what women do — we are fixers. But it doesn’t work, as it is against the natural way of things.

    Women become mothers and schoolteachers when they lead, which is not romantically enticing. For the boy-man, he gets to have his cake and eat it too, and we are running so fast we never take time to assess the situation. Why, he even gets to complain that we are too directive and bossy, when he sits back and creates the need for us to be so if we are to remain!

    It is a perfect storm of set-up for failure. As so many women have written here, we wonder if/why we are not enough, when the easiest route is to reject the person rejecting us (or more gracefully, “let them go”), bless them, and be open for those who will like to see us following our bliss. Possibly even assist and join us.



  175.  #175Lisa on January 16, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    janjune,

    Thank you for these insights:

    “A PORTION OF THE ENERGY DRAIN I FELT FROM THEM WAS JUST SIMPLY

    “ME”
    NOT SAYING
    HOW
    I F E L T !

    and

    “they may date me for 100 years… but they’re still looking…. knowing that is HUGE!!!”

    These are very big insights for me to digest. The energy drain was not saying how I felt, not rejecting what I didn’t want, and accepting the status quo (he would see me, but was “still looking”.)

    I was angry, but I was betting against myself. If I can exhale, know and speak my truth, and not fight for a lost cause who says, “Don’t fight for me; I don’t want to disappoint you”, life will be a lot more hunky dory.



  176.  #176Turtle Girl on January 16, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Lisa-
    That is such good stuff you said. Yes, it’s so true-men are very direct and very simple. They either love us, hate us or like you say-if screwed up-then they abuse us. But THAT is hating us. So I think really it gets down to two emotions. Love or fear. They either love us or fear us in some way. I know my last boy/man was absolutely terrified of any kind of emotional connection on an adult level. He did not do feelings at all. But of course I learned the lesson that it is not my problem to fix that, his issue all the way.

    I too really like Joseph Campbell and have read a lot of his stuff. Very smart man. And when I was following my bliss I was so happy, so grounded, so in tune with love and life and everything. I lost my job in 2003, my daughter grew up and moved out. I got to old to remodel houses. So here I am bumbling around in the dark trying to figure out how I lost my way. I know that there is something going to change in my life-it has too. I can’t do these awful relationships any more. I am just so sick and tired of the big emotional drain and cost. Plus I feel like a loser myself when I do not have a dream, goal, passion, bliss thing in my life. I don’t even like me, much less the losers I have been dating.
    So-it really is all about moi.

    Nancy-I have gone to concerts alone and movies alone and all sorts of things alone. I go to the gym alone and
    since I am alone, what choice do I have? I do have a couple girlfriends but one is married and well, we don’t go hang as single women. I wen to see Bob Dylan back in October at the Washington Mutual Theater in Seattle. It was so fun. Meet and talked to lots of men standing behind me. Just go! I went and seen Avatar a couple weeks ago all by myself-it was awesome-I really loved it. It is really not that bad dating yourself. Beets sitting at home all “piteeeeful” with your nasty voice saying that nobody loves me…lol…….
    Plus when I am feeling bad I just watch funny stuff on utube. Like Tim Hawkins parody of the things not to say to your wife-what a scream. Or that guy who does Walter with the puppet, or I watch some Ren and Stempy or Foghorn Leghorn cartoons. Always brightens my mood. Laughter is so great-I wonder if that is sometimes why we crave the company of men so much-they love to have fun and laugh and not take all this shit so seriously. Women can be really serious worry wort bitches at times-I include myself in that category!

    Turtle Girl
    Taking it slow, but taking it.



  177.  #177Lisa on January 16, 2010 at 7:00 pm

    Turtle,

    Yes, I’d agree with your limned down emotions: Love or fear (hate). Our job: Not fixers of them. Job 1: Find our bliss. Or, some bliss. “If you’re happy and you know it, then your face will surely show it…” True, dat.

    No weepy, solemn faces. We women do agonize, and hence, become an agony to others ;( Smile, and don’t take yourself too seriously — excellent advice. The women on this glorious site who agonize (against Rori’s better wisdom) enlighten me, too, because I see the corrosive nature of their dilemma. I was there!

    Good luck in finding new passions, Turtle. Your writing certainly helped me. I feel it will be something creative for you, and probably me, too.

    (It is so funny you mention Ren and Stimpy, as this just came up in a convo with a friend in England. She loved them many years ago, and I was trying to summon the name..)



  178.  #178Turtle Girl on January 16, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    Lisa-
    You are so wisewoman. So Goddess…
    Ah, agonizing! What a great word-and it’s root? FEAR. All of this is about overcoming fear. It is our job one. We are afraid of what they think of us, afraid of how we act, what we say, what we do, afraid of not going to a movie alone, afraid of waiting to see what will happen if he doesn’t call. Afraid of being ourselves, afraid of saying how we feel, afraid of being alone, afraid of not ever finding the man of our dreams, afraid of finding our bliss because after all, what if we fail, afraid of???????? OMG everything. It is insane. Pure insanity. I feel that overcoming fear is the number one thing. When we are so freaking angry at our men, we are actually afraid of something. I know that laughing and fear can not co-exist. Impossible. I know that doing anyway, regardless of fear makes me less afraid.
    I am not afraid to say anything on this blog because you sirens know how I feel and you all accept me however it is that I am. So, I love that and go from there. Baby step by baby step, I am turtle dancing!



  179.  #179janjune on January 16, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    oh yes, i am loving your beautitul turtle dancing turtle girl!
    beautiful! and fresh.
    unique as every goddess dance on this blog!

    dance on turtle girl, it’s a joy to see the steps to the turte dance unfold!



  180.  #180Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 11:47 pm

    Melanie,

    I wanted to say, in response to your question about leaning back and the texting that I consider text messages to be crumbs. I only consider men who call, want to see me and be physically present. If I’ve got a man who is calling me, seeing me and working to build a relationship with me and he texts me playfully as a small part of a larger relationship, then it’s fun! But if he’s just texting, not even bothering to pick up the phone and call me, I’d write him off and keep looking. I’m not sure this is the situation, from your post, but wanted to offer this. The only time my man has texted me was to play kind of a fun game of teasing me about something… just to play. He doesn’t even text me if he needs to let me know where he is or if he’ll be late. He calls me.

    xxoo
    Nancy



  181.  #181Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 11:51 pm

    I want to add that texting is less personal than a call, which is of course, less personal than coming to see you. For me, it’s a spectrum of level of personal contact, with seeing me in person at the top, calling below that and email and texting below those. I think men know this.



  182.  #182Nancy on January 16, 2010 at 11:52 pm

    Hey Turtle Girl,

    I saw Neil Young at the WAMU theater! It’s a great venue, isn’t it?



  183.  #183Daria on January 17, 2010 at 12:47 am

    AG – i feel triggered right along with you

    it reminds me of “handful” and I mean i feel amused when guys say it to me but also a lil insecure. like difficult.

    mm

    i mean i guess im not comfortable with being difficult, a handful, or a piece of work

    and i feel triggered when people say – well youre THIS way! whaaat? really???

    i feel angry



  184.  #184Daria on January 17, 2010 at 12:51 am

    Lisa that line from a song you quoted touched me in a completely different way right now!

    ” “And I don’t know how you do it/Making love out of nothing at all.”

    woww!!! i am just imagining myself creating love for myself and radiating it out of thin air…

    like the shimmer tool out of the top of my head but i like to imagine showers of wildflowers



  185.  #185Daria on January 17, 2010 at 12:52 am

    song from my goddess cirlce

    We are the weavers
    we are the woven ones

    we are the dreamers
    we are the dream

    (magic)



  186.  #186Daria on January 17, 2010 at 12:56 am

    I dono about this direct simple thing.

    well i mean men either love us or hate us thing

    doesnt feel true

    either love us or ignore us feels closer

    i know this man in my past loved me as a friend. but HE TOLD ME i was not the woman for him

    i had a crying episode when he told me he was getting a girlfriend. I said what about meee!!! i am a good woman!!

    he said yes you are a good woman but not for me!

    wow i used to feel crushed and humiliated thinking about that

    now i feel curious and interested!



  187.  #187Daria on January 17, 2010 at 1:00 am

    I feel like an agressive, nit-picking bitch on this blog lately.

    like im just here to say NO THIS IS WRONG

    or no this thing that is meant to be good feels bad

    etc

    i feel cold and removed.



  188.  #188Ankita on January 17, 2010 at 3:58 am

    Excellent……..
    Thanks a lot……..
    I needed it….

    Generally when we are in love, we tend to ignore any warning signs we may see, all because we don’t want to (sometimes)… Unless we really feel good about ourselves….we are scared too(sometimes)..

    But really I want to hug this girl and clap for her…. Her post will really give me the encouragement and support I need..!! 🙂 🙂 😀



  189.  #189Flipper on January 17, 2010 at 5:17 am

    Orchard,

    Don’t have time to see if anyone else answered you, but I believe Yes, an addressing him in feeling messages – even at this stage and even at the mediator’s, will be the most effective. Remember, though, to keep very short and ALL ABOUT YOU. That’s where knowing your feelings come in: so you can use them to formulate what you need to say. Maybe something like these lines will help you find your own words : I am still feeling so devastated for myself, and about the children’s feelings. I feel overwhelmed and confused about how to handle this, but I intend to do whatever it takes to help me and the kids get through this the best I can. I feel awkward about our relations, and miss your support, but I feel I must concentrate on myself right now. If he brings up his own ‘sorry state’, let him know that is not your affair: ‘I feel I need all my reserves right now, I don’t want to deal with your personal issues.’

    This is only meant as a starting point for you to jump off of. I wish you courage in showing your vulnerability and inner strength at the same time, whenever and in whatever way you can.

    xxoo



  190.  #190janjune on January 17, 2010 at 5:26 am

    i have no idea why i’m awake this early this morning!

    lisa,
    i went to sleep last night with these words on my mind:
    “But men know, life is simple. Men either adore us, or they ignore us. If pathological, they will abuse us.”

    amazing insights you have goddess lisa.

    was that three categories you had on your heart when you wrote that? adore or ignore or abuse?
    or two? adore or ignore?

    i went to sleep thinking three: adore, ignore, abuse.
    but woke up (way too early for me!) thinking about two categories, and thinking about it in this way (if i may take the liberty to play with your words here for the sake of the example):
    “Men either adore us, or they ignore us. If pathological, they will abuse us AS THEY DO EITHER.”

    so i guess the thing i must have been ruminating about in my sleep last night was that they DO, yes, *DO* either adore us or ignore us.

    ohmagosh lisa this is just mind-shattering to me.
    it makes things so simple. things that were very very very excruciatingly painfully complicated are now equally as simple.

    I could put it in some kind of not really an equation, but like a “man psychology phrase list” to remember on dates using symbols like they do in math or science. i see this one as
    adore:ignore
    simple.
    then I go out on a date, it’s easy to remember.
    and NOTICE.
    because he *will* be doing one or the other. i feel goosebumpy.
    even as he tries to be “polite”!, underlying it will be the underlying feeling of
    “adore you” = being in the moment with you, looking in your eyes, asking questions about you, smiling, standing up straight like he’s proud to be seen with you…
    or “ignore you” = checking his cell phone more than once or twice for messages, looking around the restaurant to see who’s there more than once or twice, asking questions that have nothing to do with who you *ARE*, and the big one, talktalktalking about himself…

    i think this will be very easy to detect now. armed with this knowledge.

    now i’m thinking that is why i woke up, to journal this 🙂

    i’m going back to sleep!



  191.  #191janjune on January 17, 2010 at 11:23 am

    lisa,
    would you please explain how you were fitting the “abuse” part into the concept you saw?
    was the abuse a separate category? ty!



  192.  #192Melanie on January 17, 2010 at 11:45 am

    Nancy, thanks for your comments about texting. In this case, we live about ten hours apart and have not been able to meet yet, but both want to.

    It feels interesting how people can experience things differently. For me, texting is more personal than a call, and I think it might be for him as well. He does a ton of business by phone, which is of course not personal. I talk to lots of people on the phone, from telemarketers to the doctor’s office to my mom, so calling covers a wide range of “levels;” however, I text ONLY with my kids and with a guy I am very interested in. Thus, texting feels way more intimate to me than a phone call. Plus, you can text things that you can’t say out loud on the phone when your kids are around. Also, he has a bit of Asperger’s and I have some traits of that, so this feels good to both of us.

    I would really love to hear input, though, on my original question about how Leaning Back applies to the specific texting examples I gave. Thanks.



  193.  #193Lisa on January 17, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Turtle, Wise and Brave,

    Your response so resonated. We women can be so constricted — so worried and fretful. I feel it is a result of our bad conditioning both to dissimulate (to put on our Barbie faces) and to prove ourselves. We are not in the business of “being”, as men usually are, so much as “proving” or “convincing”. We are “human doings”, not “human beings”.

    When I was a girl, I worried about what to say to a boy if he asked this or that. (My mom had a drawer-ful of engagement rings and had been married a few times, so she knew a thing or two.) She said, ‘Don’t tell them anything. Smile coyly, shake your head, divert the topic — do anything you want to do. Oh, and never chase after a boy!”

    I never did, and never had any trouble attracting them, either. It was only this last case — a girly-man — who threw me for a loop. I knew something was missing, so I hopped in to over-function (as Rori so cautions against.) I was a weak moment, health and job-wise. I did not see him for he was, which was a griffin — a oddity of nature. Not the only one, to be sure, but not a good fit for a woman.



  194.  #194Lisa on January 17, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Turtle,

    Addendum: Agreed, when you said we often get angry at others ’cause we’re angry/frustrated with ourselves.

    Because I had lost my path (and because he was not on one) I was frustrated at him for not saving himself, so he could save me! How messed up is that?

    Rori is right: If we focus on ourselves, it will not matter what he is doing/not doing. We will simply be focused on our agendas, and asking ourselves whether or not we feel good in his company. We are not beggars! If he cannot/will not meet our needs (after we have voiced them), we must take the high road and ride on.

    I like how Rori allows that he may be allowed to remain in the rotation, but only if it can be done without bitterness. The goal all the way ’round is contentment — comfort and enjoyment.

    “I can get my needs met many ways…”



  195.  #195Lisa on January 17, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Daria,

    Yes, the lines from the Air Supply song could also be taken in a positive way — as in, creating something good where it was absent before.

    I agree about the love/ignore dichotomy. It is often said the opposite of love is not hate (for those are hot emotions), but apathy. To “hat”, you have to give a damn. To be disinterested, nothing.



  196.  #196Nancy on January 17, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Turtle,

    I want you to know that yesterday as I walked around my house getting ready to go out, I hummed “Wear your hair just for you, do the things you like to do…” to myself. It’s priceless! Thanks.



  197.  #197Turtle Girl on January 17, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Oh Nancy darlin’

    You so made me crack up laughing! I freakin love it!
    Wear my hair just for me, do the things I like to do…….
    Thank you for your kind words. It feels so good does it not? To be for us? Yes.

    I had a chance to try out some more Rori tools just this morning. I have been dating this one guy recently-five dates. No sex yet and I don’t intend to for a while.
    Anyway, I don’t hear from him for a week-no sweat – I don’t call, email or anything. I lean back.

    So then he emails me this very cryptic message that says “sorry I have not been in touch with you all week, it has been a very strange week. Hope yours was good”

    Huh? What does that mean?

    So I emailed him back and I say hey no problem and I went on to tell him about my week and ASKED him what had happened for his week to be so strange.

    He goes all quiet on the western front on me……..

    So—-that pissed me off cause it’s bullshit and we all know it , but instead of reacting I emailed a short note that said:

    “So-let me get this straight-you don’t call me for a week and then you apologize for it and then when I asked you what’s up you go quiet again?
    That makes me feel confused and disrespected and I don’t like it.”

    About two minutes later the phone rings- it’s him and we talked for two hours. So—-there it is sirens.
    There it is. I then told him that either he wants to date or he doesn’t but I was riding on either way, and I will not tolerate that kind of behavior. I said goodby and wished him the best, and well realizing that I have another 22 dates lined up here in the next couple weeks, it ain’t no big thang……….:o) I love being strong.
    It just feels great. I love not getting all in a whiff over any of these asshats. And I love you all you sexy sirens -this is such a great forum.

    Turtle girl,
    taking is slow but taking it.



  198.  #198Daria on January 17, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    ok after reading janjunes post about adore ignore, i am on board with the

    adore:ignore simplicity!

    yah thanks!

    woo ha



  199.  #199Lisa on January 17, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Hi janjune,

    Well, I’ve been assimilating and tabulating a large amount of data over the last month or so. As I have mentioned, it’s been rather awesome the amount of raw data and support which has been funneling my way. It is no total happenstance, though, as I have been actively soliciting help, so the universe has been responding to my call. (I’m not usually so New-Agey, but I can’t deny what is there.)

    The adore/ignore dichotomy emerges from my observation of and the words of men. Men mostly are not subtle little weasels with their actions and words. They are blunt and on the table. They do not avail themselves of these exquisite lists of feeling words. Generally, they are brute: “Me hungry; horny; tired; etc.”

    I do not mean to disdain men, it’s just that they’re not that complex. My heart goes out to them more when I realize this truth. They know it, too.

    As Rori endlessly says, they want to pick up the ball and think. When we take over, we knock down their one trick. If they are doing their trick for us, they like us. That may organically grow into adore, etc. If they are not performing their trick, they are disinterested. We may fall anywhere on the spectrum of relationship, but we do not fall into true lover/wife material because we have become “men”.

    Abuse is something outside of the normal span of relationship, and as you know, something I’ve been dealing with. Mistakenly, we can often feel that even if we are being abused, at least his attention is on us. If we cannot be adored, we do not wish to be ignored, so oft times we’ll settle for abuse, in some degree.

    I am reckoning with the fact that if a man does not adore me and yet does not ignore me, and I will settle for years of a slowly decaying relationship, that is always some kind of abuse. It is not glorifying either of us. It is a tussle, or a knock-down fight. I can stay 12 rounds, but what do I gain?

    I have been privileged to be on both sides of the fence, and witness how my own previous pathetic behavior was probably received. My example is this: During one of the later abandonments in the primary narcissistic relationship, I took on a lover. After all, I was not “with” anyone.

    Now, this other man is a good man, and says he “loves” me, and “yearns for the day I will love him, too.” Except, that was not the deal. I have only ever visited him at night. I have refused every serious offer he has put on the table, inc. marriage. It is not what our relationship is about, and I have been clear in word and deed. So when he says he “yearns for that day,” I find him pathetic, or worse, manipulative.

    He is making something out of nothing. In other words, this man is me in the previous relationship, and I see what a burden it is. I don’t want to see someone unhappy, and yet, I have never led him on. Perhaps he thinks good sex would make me crazy, but it does not. Especially considering my mindset, which is coming out of a very depressed relationship.

    So, through self-observation and the actions and advice of other men I have come to my triumvirate.

    Adore/ignore is the primary paradigm; abuse is an offshoot, and is extremely variable.



  200.  #200Daria on January 17, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    whoa turtle i feel icky reading about calling men ‘asshats”

    i feel great riding up on the momentum with u and then at the end i feel like oh nooo. i dont want to blame the men and call them names… ack that feels bad FOR ME. i feel icky energy there.



  201.  #201Nancy on January 17, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    Oh Turtle Girl,

    I am DYING with laughter over here. ‘…getting all in a whiff over these asshats…’ you are so plucky and beautiful! That was SO funny. I love it.

    Go on with your bad girl self! Doesn’t it feel GOOD?!? I’m halfway hoping my guy doesn’t come through, so I can get back out there and enjoy those feelings again. I got so derailed by accepting the GF Deal. Never again! This isn’t half as much fun as that was!
    xxoo
    Nancy



  202.  #202Daria on January 17, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    Lisa, janjune and other abuse:ignore thinkers.

    well… what about a man who texts, when i would feel better with a call.

    is that an adore?

    i am now starting to feel more open to this, ie this is his adore. i will let him know (multiple times if needed and including my feeling of frustration and not being heard) that i dont like getting texts rather than calls and visits.

    but. is it an ignore? of my preferences?

    or an adore… a sweet message from him to me

    feels a lil confusing now



  203.  #203Nancy on January 17, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    Daria,

    My guess is that once you express your feelings about calling vs texting, if he ignores it, it’s an ignore. If he honors it, it’s an adore.



  204.  #204tinque on January 17, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Daria – This is an interesting point, and the answer might depend on where you are in the moment and where he is upon the delivery.
    It could legitimately go either way.
    xxoo



  205.  #205Melanie on January 17, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    I feel a little triggered. My experience of men is that they are often subtle, not always blunt and brute. In my experience men (just like women) are complex. I love the complexity of men. I feel fascinated by and interested in complex men. I feel bored by men (and women) who are not complex.

    I like this: “I am reckoning with the fact that if a man does not adore me and yet does not ignore me, and I will settle for years of a slowly decaying relationship, that is always some kind of abuse.” Yes, because why are we staying in a relationship where we are not adored???

    Nancy, I smiled and felt happy about your phrase “plucky and beautiful.”

    Daria, I feel good about this observation: “this is his adore.” It makes me think of the quote, “Just because someone doesn’t love you in the way you want to be loved, doesn’t mean they don’t love you.” He may be adoring you in the way that he is able to, in the way that he adores. So, then, you get to decide if his way of adoring is compatible with the way you need to be adored. Nobody’s “fault” — just different ways of being.

    “or an adore… a sweet message from him to me.” I feel good about this, but can also relate to your uncertainty about it. I would feel good about giving it time to see what develops.



  206.  #206Nancy on January 17, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    A little more, Daria,

    Trying to look at it objectively never works for me. If he’s caring about me, wanting to make a relationship with me, then what I look for is whether he responds to my communication about how I feel… about anything. For me, it can’t be about what’s objectivley right or wrong or permissable. The relationship is about me and him, not the world at large. So, if I express that (and not in these words, necessariliy) even though I appreciate the sweetness of his message, it feels somehow qualified and not as potent for me because of the form it came in and that to hear his voice and be able to melt and sigh IN HIS PRESENCE when he said it would create a so much more pure and enjoyable feeling experience for me and he doesn’t follow through and show up, that tells me something about him that I choose not to ignore.



  207.  #207Lisa on January 17, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    Daria,

    I’m with Nancy on this:

    If you’ve made your position known, and he ignores it, it’s an ignore. The only mitigating circumstance might be if phone service is out, he’s stuck on the road, etc.

    While we could all interpret and say he’s loving you in his own way, maybe, Rori has the answer: How do YOU feel when he ignores your request?

    Your feelings are the true North Star, not our analysis of what may be.



  208.  #208Melanie on January 17, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    Another idea, Daria, if the no-texting is really important to you. You could say, “I don’t feel good getting texts. I would feel good getting phone calls” And then ignore every text. That way, if he wants to connect with you he will HAVE to call.

    The only drawback with that is if the texting feels really meaningful to him, you will be cutting off an important means of connection for him. That’s why you have to decide how important it is to you.

    I personally prefer texting (or in person) to phone calls. On the phone, I am much less “myself.” Phone calls feel awkward and uncomfortable to me. Maybe it’s because I am a visual and kinesthetic learner, and not at all auditory. Maybe your guy is that way too. 🙂



  209.  #209Lisa on January 17, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    Melanie,

    I adore complex men, too, and I am a complex women. But I can say with certainty that men are not complex in the arduously circuitous ways that we women so often are.

    I enjoy honestly sharing complex or ingenious and unconventional thought, of which men are indeed capable. However, they do not agonize as we do over every little nuance. It would never cross their minds to do so, so I believe we err when we impute too much meaning to their behavior with us, which is actually very simple.

    One of the most intelligent men I know is the one who gave me the “Me hungry” formula. Men do not play coy little games (unless they are girlie boys). If they respect us, we will know, because they will be attentive to our requests (in the dating phase, for sure.)



  210.  #210Lola on January 17, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    Melanie

    Yes this could work.

    I told my boyfriend to call me on the land line as it’s louder and I don’t tote my mobile (cell to you gals) around the house with me. He didn’t take notice. then I stopped answering or responding to the mobile and lo and behold! he now rings on the land line.



  211.  #211Melanie on January 17, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Lisa, sounds like we know a whole different set of men and women. 🙂

    I do not equate, or even correlate, complexity with intelligence when it comes to men, so I do not feel surprised by your intelligent man’s remark (“me hungry”). Some of the most intelligent men are also some of the most simple and basic. They are all so different. I love men. 🙂



  212.  #212Melanie on January 17, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    My favorites are the ones who are complex AND intelligent. 🙂 Among other things, of course.



  213.  #213Lisa on January 17, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Melanie,

    There are only so many different types of people, IMHO.

    I did not correlate complexity with intelligence. I am not a snob (“I adore complex men, too, and I am a complex women.”) It was a later graph in which I mentioned intelligence.

    “Some of the most intelligent men are also some of the most simple and basic.” And vice versa. There is no absolute.



  214.  #214Melanie on January 17, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    It’s alright, Lisa, we can disagree. I feel fine with that.

    “’Some of the most intelligent men are also some of the most simple and basic.’ And vice versa. There is no absolute.” Yes, that is my point. 🙂

    I feel confused by “I am not a snob.”

    I feel confused by the use of the descriptor “intelligent” in the third paragraph if it had no relevance to your point.

    I feel amused by this discussion; it feels like a rabbit trail. 🙂



  215.  #215Flipper on January 17, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    Teehee I feel giggly about asshats – it sounds cute, a purple hat for a donkey, like in a French song that also has satin slippers. Donkeys, dogs……I’d really rather feel good about the man without having to go thru training (him or myself). And yet, I find myself constantly trying to help, teach, suggest.!…. Aaaargh!



  216.  #216alias girl on January 17, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    i wrote to him last night that i tend to ignore texts.

    he texted me goodnight and that he would call me tomorrow.

    i texted him back.

    this afternoon he texted me and i felt

    uninterested
    amused
    put off
    turned off
    powerful
    goddessey

    and it wasn’t even a question of do i text him back. i totally didn’t feel like it. i went on with my day not feeling like i missedd anything.

    he’s really young so i cut him a little slack in my mind but i don’t feel anything will really come of it. he feels scaredy-scared to me. and i feel womanly woman to me.
    and those two just don’t add up. it’s like offering marilyn monroe to a eunuch.



  217.  #217Tina on January 18, 2010 at 2:33 am

    Im just posting to see if I get a flower 🙂



  218.  #218Tina on January 18, 2010 at 2:35 am

    Oh my, I didnt get a flower but hey , I think I used that avatar to post lol a while back hehe. cool



  219.  #219Kath on January 18, 2010 at 6:38 am

    Ladies,

    I applaud you- thank you for everything you’ve said- I’m so glad I’ve found you!

    I have just ended an extremely toxic relationship which has taken two years of my life and nearly worn me out in the process!

    I was a woman who over-functions- in every relationship I’ve ever had!- and after finding Rori and taking her teachings onboard I finally realise and recognise-where I’ve gone wrong and I’m now learning to focus on me and to remember that Hell!- I am important and what I think and feel is important!!!!

    But let me tell you a bit of a story and then you can tell me what’s going on- cos I am confused!!!!-

    Before I met Toxic man I was essentially chasing a man who was totally unavailable emotionally and said as much to me- liked me as a friend-blah, blah. Anyway, three years on his actions and texting and the things he does for me are way over what I would consider a friend to do and offer to do- but still I get no invite on a date or anything more- Apparently a year ago he thought he was “in love” with me but didn’t follow through with that. In fact throughout the 2yr stormy, toxic, totally icky, desperate relationship with toxic man- my “friend” has been there for me the whole time- almost uncannily knows when I’m having a bad time and always cheers me up- whether a text out of the blue or I just bump into him- but having cheered me up- he never follows through!!

    Toxic man was convinced that I never loved him but only had real feelings for “my friend” which isn’t true but would always be the boomberang issue in arguments.

    I feel that now I have found the courage to bin a man who didn’t treat me right and who controlled and manipulated and made me feel that I was wrong all the time and that my opinion didn’t matter and my feelings were irrelevant- I feel that I should now tell “my friend” that I don’t need him either!- I love being with him don’t get me wrong- but I want more- and I’m tired of wanting more when I know that I’m not going to get it!- I don’t want to do a feeling speech cos I don’t think I need to- or do I?- HELP!!!!



  220.  #220Lisa on January 18, 2010 at 7:56 am

    Kath,

    Sorry about your difficult two years, but I think you are developing good understanding.

    When your friend showed up almost “uncannily” on bad days, I’ll bet they were almost all bad days, some just worse than others. You’re right about needing to make no speech to him. What I have found personally is, most men hate another man treating a good woman poorly. They will step out in your defense to the degree they can, whether that means a comforting smile or hug, or actively advising you of your situation. Some will even confront the man, as happened in my case.

    So this man is a true friend, but not a lover.

    Re. the ex always blaming this man for problems in your reln., that would be typical projection. I found that when my ex was cheating, he would dredge up every friend in my book to deflect any attention or blame. Divert and deflect.

    At some point, I decided to ignore that game, and look at my issues with him straight on. Then I grew up and out, and felt the depth or my anger and disgust.



  221.  #221candace on January 18, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Your original post hit home. I do all the work in my 11 month relationship. I love this man and want this to work, but now I am doubting all of it. Why do I insist on fixing every relationship. If I put 150% into it, I’ll get 20% and that will be enough. I know this is not a forever thing, but I so want it to be. He is OCD, anal and extremely selfish. I drive an hour to his house several times a week. He has been to my house 3 times in a year. I don’t want to start over, dating, loving, giving, expecting. I’ve talked myself into getting Rori’s ebook and will start my evaluation of myself. I just really wanted this to be it, my forever love. And I’m so afraid it is not. At 41 I’m ready to be married, my kids are grown, he (40) has two, 7 and 10 (autistic), so I would be starting over with kids. I just really need a starting point. I have read so much information here, I don’t know where to begin.



  222.  #222Lola on January 18, 2010 at 11:13 am

    I usually get a text from my boyfriend in the morning or if not a call after I finish work.
    I eventually got one that said ” I’ll call you tonight when I am at work.” No kisses. Feels very ominous.

    I just feel so so so so tired of this. I feel like switching off the mobile, disconnecting the land line and going to bed at same time as daughter, I don’t want to hear anymore talk of how broken everything is, I don’t want to him say this is over,and how if this or that had been different everything would be fine.. .

    I feel washed up, wrung out.



  223.  #223Rori Raye on January 18, 2010 at 11:18 am

    Candace, Welcome – and you are the classic woman in the classic situation that prompted me to start my work – because that was me! – I want you to know that YOU can move the quickest, and have the fastest results because your instincts are so leading you astray. If you follow the ebook, make the changes in your own thinking and behavior, stick to the 4 Rules, the Overfunctioning, Feeling Messages (deeper in Modern Siren) and Circular Date (this is Targeting Mr. Right) – your life will turn around so fast your head will spin. Love, Rori



  224.  #224candace on January 18, 2010 at 11:41 am

    Thanks Rori,

    I do believe you when you say my life will turn around. That’s what scares me. I don’t want to lose this man. Sad huh? But I think with all the support from you and other women here, I can be held accountable for getting my life in my own hands. I know what I want for myself and now have hope of getting it. I just really have to get past him not being the one. That part sucks! Thanks again for hope.



  225.  #225tinque on January 18, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Lola – tell him exactly what you just posted here. It’s perfect. He will step up, or he won’t.
    xxoo



  226.  #226Turtle Girl on January 18, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    Candace

    You are not alone in these feelings. I see me in everything you said. But I am telling you honey you are throwing yourself on the alter of HIM. Ask yourself-why?
    Why do you do it? Why do you knock yourself for this guy and get crumbs and sometimes not even that? Anal? Anal men make your life hell. And the driving to his house has got to stop. Just say no. Don’t give in. Get Rori’s tools, get up and go wash your car, call a friend, anything but go driving your life away…….think about it-if you are feeling crappy and on this blog there is something wrong big time with your relationship. If he was so darn wonderful you would not be here!!! You have chosen to sacrifice yourself for uh, what exactly?
    How do you REALLY feel around this man? Resentful, pining away hoping he will be different one day if only you love him enough. Do you get the little small nagging feeling that he is USING you? HE proably is, and it may not even be intentional. Men just do what they want to-Period. Selfish. Self centered behavior.

    Oh I was so there and now I am not. It has been about two months- and I still think about him and I am not totally over it, but I feel waaaaaayy better today than I did. I am dating and getting a life and my toxic man is fading into the background day by day and I realize no matter how many good traits I thought he had- it was not worth the angst I felt all the time because he is toxic and YOU can not change that. He has to recognize it on his own, if he ever does, and want to change. Please don’t throw away your beautiful Goddess self over a man like this. We do not have to work this hard to obtain love. And by doing this what you are getting is not love anyway! And in the end they do not respect you or give you the love you profess to want from them so bad. I had to realize that I was punishing myself by staying with Mr. Toxic. There is someone out there for you who will really love, respect and cherish you if you love, respect and cherish yourself. Love and hugs to you.

    Turtle Girl
    taking it slow, but taking it



  227.  #227candace on January 18, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Oh wow, ya’ll are getting my head spinning. Over the weekend I tried to use a couple of things I learned from the blogs, and in the end he says, “over the last month I have fallen more in love with you and am moving more toward what you want (marriage in a year)”. I now feel like he just said this to shut me up. Right or wrong? He is who he is. I need to find out who I am. I am reading the book today and will start fresh. I am scared to death. Really, really scared.



  228.  #228Lola on January 18, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    Thanks
    Tinque I may do that.

    What feels so frustrating is that things like this seem to happen as soon as I feel I am really getting into me. As you may know I have been posting on here very positively because I did the Rori New Year letter thing, I’m signing up to a new course tomorrow which may be a new career/more money. I have been feeling very all about me!!!

    But when I’m at the height of this something occurs either in the dynamic of the relationship or within myself and I let mylself/Make my self unravel.

    Can anyone relate to this/advise on this? Tinque?



  229.  #229tinque on January 18, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    It’s very common Lola – I’ve done it, fall apart as things seem to be going much better, and I imagine many others here have as well.
    The way I’m seeing it is that two things are going on here with you.
    As you come into your powerful goddess you, this man who may or may not be up to the “task” meaning able to handle your goddess energy, balks, gets skittish, feels out of control, whichever expression resonates with you more.
    So he gets nasty, lashes out in an attempt to have you and the “relationship” back under his purview.
    Now you are doing great, taking care of you, finding the true you. But this process is rarely if ever smooth sailing. There will be turbulence on the water here and there.
    The more secure you become within yourself, the fewer of these episodes will you have.
    You will likely still have shaky moments every now and then, but you will have the experience with which to deal. And it will be easier to do so.
    I hope this helps.
    xxoo



  230.  #230Lola on January 18, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Tinque

    Thanks – it has happened too often to be a coincidence and I suspected he was reacting to the changes in me. He is very perceptive has said in the past ‘I don’t want you to change – you never know what that might do to our relationship’

    I love the feeling of change that had been coming over me. All these other things coming into focus.



  231.  #231Lisa on January 18, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    Turtle says,

    “And in the end they do not respect you or give you the love you profess to want from them” — I have found this to be true.

    As you say, men do what they want, and generally speaking, if we are not doing what we want, they do not understand us. In fact, they grow to revile us, b/c rightly or wrongly they see us as manipulating them to get what we want.



  232.  #232Lisa on January 18, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Lola says,

    “I suspected he was reacting to the changes in me” —

    Yes! We are the only one’s we CAN change, and of necessity, when we change, our relationships (borders) change.

    I love what Rori says about this: As we grow, we may not even like him anymore. He may prove to be a bore. That was really helpful, to know that as I shift, my perceptions shift. I can have new goals, and the best thing is not to make a man my goal. Men do not to be objectified, any more than we do 🙂



  233.  #233Lola on January 18, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Lisa

    Yes, also, I am such a super focused person I know that I will laser focus onto my new course when it starts and no matter what I won’t be able to give him this kind attantion that he has now. I feel interested in what will happen then and how the dynamic will change.
    I feel intrigued!



  234.  #234tinque on January 18, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    A good man will organically change right along with you. And you both continue to grow, together.
    xxoo



  235.  #235Lola on January 18, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    Well, I’ll keep you posted!!! : )))



  236.  #236Lola on January 18, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Another strange feeling I have had recently is that without consciously deciding to end the relationship I have had feelings of sadness for him at the thought of us not being together anymore and wondering will he be OK/lonely and it makes me feel teary.
    I’ve had this before in other relationships.



  237.  #237Lisa on January 18, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Lola,

    Change it will. It is really kind of amazing, in the short time I have been shifting my focus. I like your “being intrigued” — that is a posture I may adopt. Right now, I am in awe of the new responses I am getting from different people.

    My challenge is not to direct things. I tend to be controlling, and want a good outcome. So it will be better for me to shift my focus back to me (as A.G. recently mentioned), and then be “intrigued” and receptive to what comes my way.

    to me, that requires a certain trust, so that is new, too — to trust that the universe will provide (as long as I am pulling my weight.)



  238.  #238Lisa on January 18, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    I think that is a natural rxn to loss. In my case, the man was a loner anyway, so he goes back to his homeostasis. It was I who tugged him out of it.

    He will be much more at ease with the occasional FB/FWB.



  239.  #239Lola on January 18, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Lisa

    The shifting focus back onto myself thing is having more impact for than anything else right now because of its simplicity but downright effectiveness!!!

    My man’s a bit of a loner too. I listened to the Lisa Steadman interview today and she is talking about when you are getting to know a new man pay attention – he’ll give you all the information you need. And whilst there is nothing wrong with being quiet and self sufficient as some men are, their attitudes towards their family and how they interact with the world in general gives vital clues which we ignore at our peril!

    This feels very relevant to me!



  240.  #240Lisa on January 18, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    Lola,

    I am glad you are having success shifting the focus to yourself.

    The self-focus thing is a challenge for me, as I am so accustomed to being other-focussed. As I still see him in a business capacity, it is a challenge not to go back to thinking kindly of him, and wanting to help. I am trying to strike the right balance, but it can be difficult.

    If I remember his offenses, I get angry. If I put them behind, I fear I will be too vulnerable. I must focus on Rori’s message to keep the focus on me, for whatever I try and do when I think of dealing with him is out of whack, because that is the way he always kept it. It is not me who is off-kilter, but him. I say that not to mean or out of judgment, but just to keep in mind that “normal” may not happen with him, and if I keep my mind there, I will be stuck.

    This is the yucky period, 1 1/2 months out. I haven’t struck out for anything new, and have done the bulk of the slog work through the major psychological assaults I endured. It is too easy for me to imagine that I am strong, and can interact with him on a level plane. I must keep in my mind that there is no level plane here, and I must stand on my own plane.

    I like Rori’s recent comment on her heart tool, where she suggests we envision silver and gold threads being disentwined in our heart, and released. That feels good to me, as my heart feels heavy.



  241.  #241Daria on January 18, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    Turtle hi! I feel invigorated by your comment but a small part of it triggers me!

    ” Men just do what they want to-Period. Selfish. Self centered behavior.”

    I feel bad!! This does not sound like Good for them, they have good self esteem to do what they want. it sounds like doing what they want is bad! Selfish. Self-centered. and not in a “kingly” way.

    We are all here WORKING ON DOING WHAT WE WANT TO.

    it feels bad to hear men called names.

    Also, I feel concerned that this “vibe” of “bitterness and judgement” will push away men. i don’t want that to happen, and I respect you, so I wanted to point that out to you.



  242.  #242Daria on January 18, 2010 at 11:05 pm

    Here’s something from the “questions” thread kind of along the same lines. it feels very uplifting and inspiring to me:

    Hi y’all — Just a few thoughts from the trenches regarding circular dating (who to keep, what to say, how to deal with icky guys). One thing that keeps coming up as a sub-text within many of the questions and comments on this board is an “us vs. them” attitude.

    Many of us are here because we’ve been hurt in past relationships and so we’re trying to work through our old patterns so we can get past the toxic men and find Mr. Right. While I fully understand the tendency to be angry and to degrade guys, in general, I feel like we’re doing ourselves a disservice by taking things out on the guys that “show up”. The instinct that says “Ouch! he hurt me so now I’m going to hurt you” is strong in the beginning when you first start using the tools, but trust me when I tell you that if you can let go of that anger and just look at the human being in front of you and LISTEN, you will LEARN something.

    Finding Mr. Right means nothing if you haven’t learned to truly communicate honestly and effectively with a man.

    The best way to learn to communicate with a man is to TALK to men. Lots of men. Not just chit chat, but real conversations. Listen to them. Be honest, but don’t be judgmental or cruel. Treat people the way you want to be treated.

    I’m not talking about being a doormat, but just showing compassion and empathy to another human being. We all have friends, brothers, or other relatives who could be that “reject” to some other woman, so wouldn’t it be nice if someone gave them some honest feedback? (i.e., commenting about dirty fingernails, bad breath/teeth in a supportive way)

    There are so many ways just a random act of kindness can change a person (or the world!). Saying things in a loving and supportive way might really help turn someone around and find self-confidence so that one day he could become Mr. Right for someone else.

    I have learned so much from talking to what most people would call “losers” and have taken great pride in helping them understand what women want. In turn, I have learned so much from them — how truly vulnerable men are, and what the world demands of them, which is why they tend not to communicate their true feelings and you have to work so hard to get past their ‘persona’.

    This is how I deal with my guys. This is how I deal with all people I come in contact with. It’s more of a “pay it forward” attitude. I know my positive attitude and compassion will eventually attract the most amazing man into my life. In the meantime, I will continue practicing my communication skills with everyone else around me, so when he does show up, I’ll be ready and will say exactly what needs to be said at the right moment.

    Hugs to all!

    Rebecca



  243.  #243candace on January 19, 2010 at 6:13 am

    My typical evening:
    I drive 45 minutes from work to his house.
    Call on my way to see if he needs anything.
    Get there at 8pm.
    Help him get his kids in bed and things ready for the next day.
    We lay in his bed watching tv.
    “I’m hungry” he says.
    I ask what do you want, he tells me, I get up and get it for him.
    I take a shower while he eats. (Hoping for some sexual attention later)
    I put his dishes away when he is done and climb in bed with him.
    “Do you want your back scratched?” I ask. Yes, of course.
    I scratch his back until he falls asleep.
    I cry myself to sleep wondering if I will ever be able to put this process of re learning, and breaking all these bad habits.
    Obviously, no sex or attention for me.
    He gets up and ready. Kisses me goodbye and says “Thank you for being so sweet to me last night.”
    I smile on the outside, but my heart hurts.
    I get up, get his kids up for school, and am starting my day out the same way I ended the one before.
    So, my question is, where should I have started with the new material. Feeling? Telling him how I felt? Just being? I thought that was what I was doing. Just being and waiting on him to be sweet to me. I don’t think I get this at all. Or, it may be that I’m so scared of myself, feeling myself that I can’t get over the helpless feelings.



  244.  #244Lisa on January 19, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Candace,

    Do you feel like you’re being taken advantage of?

    Maybe you should be getting salary for your nanny duties? At least then, you would not be being exploited. A “thank you” is thin payment, in my book.



  245.  #245candace on January 19, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    I agree with you Lisa. Honestly, I know and I can appreciate anyones outside opinion of my situation. I want to change, to learn how to be better to myself, to be enough for myself. I’ve read the book and will re-read tonight and again and again. I’ll get this figured out. I hope.



  246.  #246Simply Shannon on January 19, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    Candace: Maybe start at the beginning of your typical evening… “It feels good to see you but I don’t feel happy driving to your house every night.” And then don’t drive to his house every night. Or if that feels too scary, don’t offer to make his food (or scratch his back). When a guy says “I’m hungry”, my response might be “I feel hungry too”. And then stop talking. Don’t offer to DO anything. Let him figure it out on his own. If he says “whatcha gonna fix?”, I might say “I don’t feel like cooking tonight.” And again stop talking.

    What you’re describing to me sounds like a lot of overfunctioning. You’re doing everything and he’s doing nothing. Blech. If I’m in that situation, it would feel good to stop and think about what I’m doing there that does feel good. And only do those things. Everything else can just STOP. It might sound difficult to imagine not driving over there but it might feel liberating to just break the cycle and see what happens. Maybe you could try experimenting with it a few nights just to see what happens?



  247.  #247janine on January 19, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    How I wish I could be that strong so much rings true i have been in this relationship for 2 years he is a nice man devoted to his parents who he looks after or rather his mother and he as had 2 other serious relationships, one lasted 8 yrs he saw her twice a week the 2nd lasted 5 yrs and she constantly had an affair on him. he doesnt give time to this relationship he arrives at 1030 pm and goes at 7pm hates going anywhere, and the first yr he would be here at 830pm but he keeps moving the goal posts, he does ask why i put up with it and i know he is trying to get me to go away the sex though is very good with us. new yr 09 he said he wants to be friends and not stop over 5 nights a week so we settled on 4 nights, he does do jobs for me, but he does not like the word commitment, I feel all fired up to tell him to get lost, but i feel lonely dont know anyone to go out with and dont want to go out on my own very rural place here. someone is better than no one,. lbut i know i deserve better than this. how to do it though. my family stay i am silly and i really want a nice realtionship, he wont ever commit although he was engaged to the other two he says that will never happen with me he as learned his lesson he as always said he is a commitment phobic . i was on my own for 3 yrs after a long term relationship and when i mention moving on he doesnt like it and comes around more, he says he doesnt love me but cares for me. need some major help here. dont want to be a sad old lady and be on my own anymore



  248.  #248janine on January 19, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    mean he leaves 7am in a morning he is a farmer



  249.  #249candace on January 19, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    I love the specific phrase you offered me to say. I think that will work to get my feelings across in a nice, not bitchy, way. Although, I have said it before and I almost think he is so selffish that he dosn’t care. But I’m excited to try it. I have backed off calling him today and only let him call me. He acted surprised and put out. But I think it made me feel stronger in a way.



  250.  #250lisa on January 19, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    Hey Candace,

    I hope I didn’t come across as judgmental. I’m learning a lot, too.

    I just meant to pose a thought question, as I am doing, and as Rori encourages. How do you FEEL?

    I hope we all discover our feelings, and are able to enjoy voicing them, and not ever feel walked upon or ignored again.



  251.  #251lisa on January 19, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    S. Shannon,

    Excellent advice. I am learning to stop over-functioning, and only do the things that make me happy.

    Janine,

    I have been there. If I may be direct, it is a booty call. And it may be a very lovely and enjoyable one, but that is what it is. I have heard “I care, but that is not enough.” So the man acknowledged it, at least.

    Of course, I was so hung up on fixing him and figuring him out that I failed to ask myself what it was I wanted. I certainly didn’t want the disregard and “no relationship” stance, and yet there it was staring me in the face. Yeah, I know the old song, neither one was right or wrong. He wanted what he wanted, but I WAS wrong to stay in something that made me very sad.

    I can say I feel much better not being in that pseudo-relationship (“imaginary” reln.), because I did not want just a booty call. I was on-call, to see him when he wanted it. That is not partnership. Not as I wanted it.



  252.  #252candace on January 20, 2010 at 7:30 am

    last night he implied he needed me to take his 7 yr old to a birthday party friday evening and get the present and wrap it for him. I said that I wish that I could help him, but I had planned on staying home friday night and wouldn’t be able to. I was scared to death to get those words out of my mouth. He of course tried make me feel guilty, useless and that I loved him less. Or I felt that way on my own. But I did not give in and say okay, I’ll do it. I felt amazing. I called a girlfriend to brag on myself and let her know that I was growing a pair. And I did this without crying, or bitching, or giving in to him. Thank Rori and all you other girls. I realize this is not going to happen over night (my preference), but I feel like with the book, and all of the support here, I CAN do this.



  253.  #253Lola on January 20, 2010 at 8:12 am

    Candace
    I read your post on my email, but can’t find it here on the blog to reply to.

    Anyway, WELL DONE!!!! That must have felt hard, but you did it!

    Keep us posted
    X0X



  254.  #254Turtle Girl on January 20, 2010 at 9:21 am

    Daria-
    This is twice now you have made some comment about the words I have chosen or what I have said.

    How whatever it was I said made you feel bad because you think I am slamming men and have a bad bitterness vibe.

    When I said that they do what they want. Well- They do-that is a fact. And the selfish self centered part is also true of toxic men. I have been with a couple really toxic men and they are selfish and self centered. Obviously not all men are this way-if they were then we all might as well pack it in and skip the whole thing.

    Not only that- on days if I am feeling however it is I am feeling then I am going to say whatever it is I am going to say at the time. So that’s how I feel about it. And if that pushes men away for the time being then well-so be it. I do not have to always feel like men are wonderful. This just sound like more over functioning to me-more of the “gee I am so worried about what some guy is gonna think of me” Maybe some men need to be told they are selfish because they are. Period.

    This blog is supposed to be a safe place to air all sorts of feelings, good, bad or indifferent and I am not going to mince my words about my feelings.



  255.  #255Jessie on January 20, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    Hey,
    I think there is only one thing worse than divorce (for the kids perspective of their mom and day) –that is watching your mother have to do all the work every day to keep a relationship together and have the dad not deserve it at all–that message to kids is really ill. The boys will grow up thinking they are entitled to love and don’t have to earn that love by being respectful, kind, compassionate, or even in tune with their partner….next the girls will grow up thinking they should be every man’s doormatt (that was how I grew up and trust me I have been trying to overcome my own door matt issues started by my mothers)….DIvorce can actually be empowering for children –dont believe everything you read about how hard it is on children….fighting is what beats up kids….divorce is only a relief if it means parents can start putting their differences aside and start concentrating on being healthy for their kids!

    My 12 year old absolutely loves his step dad to death….he loves him, he sits with him, and my new man absolutely adores both my son and me. There is hope if you believe you deserve the best and if you believe there are really good men out there that WILL love you, love your kids, and respect you. When we believe all men are no good so we might as well stay with the father of our kids or there is no hope–then my life would never have happened. When My 12 year old goes to his dad’s–who is selfish, an alcoholic, and abuses his present woman, my son comes home and tells me –dad is still the same…he yells and took me shopping and bought HIMSELF something and not me—and then goes and plays PS3 or snowboards or just hangs out with my man–his stepdad –so dont give up.

    It can work out and your next man may be CRUCIAL in ending the pattern of abuse and neglect that our forefamilies have started for us –in some cases!

    Hope it all works out!
    J



  256.  #256LJ- on January 20, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Hi Turtle Girl and ladies-
    Turtle Girl- I am very glad you did write this. Your guy sounds like how my guy was over the last year of our relationship. You see, I was with him for 4 years. During the first 3, i felt like we had something truly speacil, i thought I had his love and I felt that I did, and that he truly cared about me. We had a great time, and still to this day, I miss those moments, even though I probably shouldn,t. Last Christmas time, I went through and episode with him in which he gave me the silent treatment for about 3 1/2 weeks and i didn’t understand why…i felt like my world dropped out in a sense..I didn’t understand–til this day still do not. After that episode, we stayed together, but nothing to me ever felt quite the same and I felt he wasn’t the same either. I felt untrusting of him, but never truly told him how I felt and repressed alot of my feelings fearing that I would have to face the “silent treatment” thing which scarred me. A few months prior to this episode and pretty much the year after , i norticed some many differences, and i guess I was living in denial. I became the one asking him “out”. I became the one “calling and texting “him first. When I wouldn’t hear from him for a few days, i would initiate contact. I would be the one for the most part driving to his place to see him. I would ask him over and sometimes never got an answerr til the last minute. Where I use to be and feel like a top priority in his life, and i felt i could count on him as my best friend, etc.etc., know I felt like I was second best, like table scraps instead of a main course meal. I remember over the last year never really knowing if we were going to hang out, and always was the one to plan every week it seemed like because, i loved him and wanted to see him. Before in our relationship we saw each other so much more, and during the week, etc. We worked together, still do. ..and we’d flirt at work, sneak out and go to lunch together, etc. and had a blast. Over the last year, well, i started feeling invisible at work, like we barely spoke, and it was weird. We’d hang out on the weekends and at work all of the sudden, he was distant. (p.s. Rori wrote a blog on my situation-office romance) Granted, we were discreet because of work, but i started feeling like I didn’t exist. Things just started feeling worse, and i couldn’t deal with acting like everything was fine anymore b/c of fear of what he might say, or that he’d leave, etc..5 months ago, in a kind, mature way, i attempted to initiate a talk, wnated to tell how I was feeling, and let him know, and basically just wanted honesty from him. I knew things were off, and wanted to know from tallking to him where we stood. Well, he blew me off for a week- this led to a argument (small scale argument) in his office, and that was it. No closure, no answers, all impending questions, and so much more. This was close to 5 1/2 months ago. There was a few occasions i tried giving the “olive branch” tried making contact, and initiate a mends making and all that during this time. However, I received a letter from him about 2 1/2 months ago, that just shocked me. I couldn’t believe what it said, it wasn’t the guy I knew. He knew I still loved and cared for him and basically, it said that if
    ( I wanted to “deal” with him in anyway, i had to apologize to him-then i could be friends, or be “fuckbuddies”, but he will screw other women, and date other women)—I don’t know what the hell he would expect me to say to that-but i just never responded..period. I sort of wish I would’ve given him a big F..U..! but didn’t…just never responded…that was about 2 1/2 months ago…..and man…it still hurts so bad…and its awful for me because he works right around the corner…as I type this..i can hear him talking…i have to admit, its torture at times….i wish the pain, the agony, the feelings of love for him, the feelings of missing him, the feelings of hating him,..all of that and more would just go away…i wish i was numb to everything about him….

    ladies, i would love a boost of confidence right now..and turtle girl..i wish I could walk away from it all like u did….believe me..i try, itry so hard..i do everything imaginable..but the feelings keep arising in me…i think its because of many factors–maybe because we were 4 yrs. together, plus he works with me; plus there was no closure, no talk, no ending, it didn’t make sense at all…i sometimes wonder if he thinks I ended things and is mad at me…i don’t know..sometimes my mind goes carzy…
    …and i have several guys asking me out, and texting me, etc….but i don’t know what’s wrong with me…i’m just not interested, sometimes i don’t even contact them back or i ignore them- ..sometimes i wonder if I’ll ever get through this…i wish the pain would just go away…
    ,,Thanks for listening all..i had my office door shut a few moments ago and was crying in secret….which i do sometimes…that’s what provoked me to get on this blog…i feel a lil better just getting this out
    Take Care
    LJ



  257.  #257Lisa on January 20, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    LJ,

    The proximity and time affiliated makes it tough. That treatment is uncalled for. And since we cared for so long, we suffer cognitive dissonance — “Could there be something wrong with me?” We want to imagine that perhaps he suffers a brain tumor, or somesuch, that makes him behave so poorly.

    Really, I think it comes back to men doing what they want. Some men grow bored, and don’t have finesse; some have a cruel streak. With me, the man began treating me this way when he began cheating. I didn’t know it at the time; I just cried at the injustice of it.

    Now I know he was a cheating SOB. I have anger b/c it is not that long ago, but I have acceptance, too. Some men do not know how to segue out of relationship, so they figure they’ll just let the ball drop. Once I could call it for what it was, he sat back with a sh*t-eating grin in acceptance. In other words, we were on par, now. Both knew where things stood.

    For him, he is older, and would often say how amazed he was that his equipment still worked. So he is in the business of accruing notches on his belt. He is reverting to 17. It won’t come again, and since he is superficial, quantity over quality is the thing.

    I seriously doubt he felt a twinge of pain, but that is neither here nor there. I felt pain, and will now identify such a man and situation MUCH sooner. It is done.

    In your case, I hope the pain becomes less soon. As you fill your days with new ideas and people, his lowly behavior will become first, reprehensible and loathsome to you, then, it will mean less and less until it becomes a pinpoint in time.

    Your self-esteem doesn’t ride on his inadequacy.

    Good luck 🙂



  258.  #258Flipper on January 20, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Oh, poor LJ – there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re hurting, that’s normal, and that’s taking up a lot of your energy so it’s hard to feel interested in those guys. But, it’s like in the old days, drs. and parents would say that children in hospital had to be kept calm, no big distractions, and later when clowns and play rooms started being allowed, the children actually got better faster, and felt less pain even beyond the actual moments of the shows and games. Your inner voice holding you back from responding to these men means well, but you can see it’s not very effective. Let the clowns in, let them give you a whirl and a few laughs. They really can take some of the pain away. xxoo



  259.  #259Flipper on January 20, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    I also wanted to say I feel you did well not to answer his ‘rag’ (can’t bring myself to call it a letter). I would want to say to him “I feel terrible. I didn’t deserve that. I feel doubly bad because I didn’t realize I was sharing my love with someone capable of that” But I know I would not have thought of those words till long after any good chance to say them, because that’s how it happened for me, too, even if I don’t have to put up with his physical presence every day.



  260.  #260Lisa on January 20, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    LJ,

    Oh, and you took the high road by not responding to that degrading letter. In my book, it sounds sick and cruel.

    When you say, “I received a letter from him about 2 1/2 months ago, that just shocked me. I couldn’t believe what it said, it wasn’t the guy I knew”, the sad fact is, that IS the guy you knew. But it is not the guy you cared to see. Perhaps like me, you lived in denial for a few years.

    Pull in your oars and be happy you are free from such a derelict. There is far better for you. I understand not giving the newcomers a fair shake if you are fixated, but be an actress for an hour. There is something to the “fake it ’til you make it” school. Remember, Rori brings the great knowledge of being an actress to her work.

    The way I see it is, glomming onto him didn’t work. Since he doesn’t value me, I must value me if I am to stay strong. I gave him many chances, and like you, extended the olive branch. Since he rejected it, I take it as a PRETTY BIG SIGN that this will not work.

    Time to regroup and find another mission. He is one of 3 billion men on the planet. I’m sure I can find someone else to pique my interest.



  261.  #261Lisa on January 20, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    LJ,

    I am trying to bring myself up to speed, and so read the archives when I can. I just read something you posted in 8/09:

    “…this is sort of his pattern…now I fear that i’m not gonna hear anything from him …and days or weeks are going to go by and no communication.. (this has happened when he’s withdrawed before in the past, and then it feels really uncomfortable at work….i am afraid of him cutting off communication..which he has done in the past…then I hold off for as long as I can…feeling awkward…around him..then angry, etc…)….I’m starting to feel angry, anxious now….I don’t know how to be around him at work…i don’t know if he’s going to say anything or not…( i find myself going back to that strategizing mode that i hate)..you now..”do I wait a couple days and if he doesn’t say anything, then do I express my dispointment and anger w/ feeling messages, or do i not say anything…and what is the best way to handle seeing him ay work?…”

    What a cruel control freak the guys sounds like. Just like I dealt with! 🙁

    Rori is so right: We must make it about us, not them. We’ll be hanging in the breeze forever, otherwise, and the games grow more cruel.



  262.  #262Daria on January 20, 2010 at 7:08 pm

    Candace the FIRST THING TO DO IS STOP.

    STOP OVERFUNCTIONING. Babysteps.

    Babysteps but STOP EVERYTHING.

    I have skimmed below and seen you got some great advice.

    it sounds like you are the man and he is the girl. he even says thank you for being sweet! thats your job.

    So STOP everything, as much as you can, and practice any tool you remember.



  263.  #263candace on January 21, 2010 at 7:39 am

    I think I can at some point reconfigure my brain to think of me first. The difficult part right now is that I am realizing the end. The end of this love, this relationship and everything I thought was real. It’s a good thing, but so painful. And you are right, I have been doing all the “boy” stuff and I do not want that for myself. I have begun to reverse myself and will hope for a future with him as the man and me the goddess I want to be. I just am smart enough to know that he likes it the way it is and won’t be the man I want in my life. That scares me. Alot. But I don’t want to be a doormat anymore. I have two sons (20 & 17) who are feeling the affects of this process also. Them I want to treat me better too. All the men in life are in for a rude awaking. I am becoming ME. Look out!



  264.  #264Tina on January 21, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Candace, you start by not going to his house, you take a right turn to your house and stay there! 🙂



  265.  #265candace on January 21, 2010 at 8:27 am

    This is working…He just called and offered to take me to lunch. Wow. I wanted to say no, but thanks, but I didn’t. I acted all googoo and surprised. So, now I just don’t let my guard down right? This is just the beginning.



  266.  #266Turtle Girl on January 21, 2010 at 9:28 am

    Yes, This is cruel. I had a date last night and we were telling each other about how our last relationships dumped us. I told him about my toxic man. He said the fact that I got NO closure and that my ex refused to explain what or why was very cruel. This is coming from a man, mind you. Even though he is not my type, and we won’t be dating, it gave me hope and made me feel better that there are good men out there. Good men who do not treat their women like this.



  267.  #267Turtle Girl on January 21, 2010 at 9:43 am

    LJ-

    If it has only been two and 1/2 months that is not enough time to feel really better about things. As I am sure I do not need to tell you-grieving is not linear. You are gonna just have to suffer through it-there are gonna be days you cry and days you want him back. Just stick it out. You will be o.k. After enough time has passed and if you get stronger in your self-you will not want him back.

    The great thing about distance is that you get clarity. If there is any way at all you can change jobs do it. If not, you need more resolve and support and ways to work through your grief. Write, journal, punch a pillow, imagine pouring gasoline on him and lighting him on fire-whatever it takes to get out your anger and feelings of betrayal. You will be ok. Time does heal all wounds.
    It really does.



  268.  #268LJ- on January 21, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Hi Lisa, thanks for taking the time to respond to me, i really appreciate it and your words made me feel better. It’s interseting that you mentioned your guy was older. Believe it or not, my guy is 27 years older. I am 34 and he is actually going on 62. We started seeing each other when I was 30 and he 57.
    I guess a part of me at some point thought that the age gap was a good thing, that i was and would be appreciated more. I didn’t go out with him for that reason by any means. I’m one that is sorta blind to age and color, etc. if I feel something is right to start off with. However, it goes to show that emotional maturity does not come with age in any man, its sometjhing that is developed.
    You copied some of an old post of mine, and it was inteeresting to read it because i haven’t yet gone back and read my old posts. That particular post was during the time I was waiting for him to get back to me to talk b/c I had finally decided that we needed to talk about some things that had been bothering me. This post was during the time he was blowing me off. It’s weird that when I read it, i go back to the feelings of how I felt exactly in that moment. That’s one reason i feel it is so hard for me at work-because when I see him, hear him, etc. I feel the pain all over again.
    Sometimes I’m very strong, other times very weak. It’s a constant daily battle. I’m almost embarrassed to say this, but I overheard a bit of a conversation he was having w/ one of his friends here (a friend that I do not like–this guy thinks he some sorta player too)..anyway..yes..i was eavesdropping a bit…don’t know why…heard them talk about some girl at some party they were at…it sounded like they were making typical guy comments–and probably along the lines of degrading behavior….i don’t know why I listened..but it angered me and hurt me…
    yesterday i was having a weak day…and i wrote into this blog..and you know what’s ironica….when I left work..and went to get in the elevator…guess who was right behind me…yes..him…just us…when I’m around him like that..i have no clue how to be or to act…i feel like everyday..i do act like an actress here and act like nothing bothers me…however..i went in elevator..he was behind me..and out of my mouth I said..”Here I’ll hold it for you” we rode to the bottom floor in utter silence..i didn’t look at him at all…i walk out the doors, –didn’t hold them open for him..told someone else bye..left the building and walked ahead of him to the garage, while he lagged behind…..I just don’t know how to act in the situations…should I be nice..should I be a bitch…i don’t know…nothing really comes naturally around him anymore..there is no natural state of mind…. some of my friends ask why are so hung up on this much older guy? You are a beautiful, great girl, and have so many people interested in you and you can do so much better…..i just wish it was that easy…
    …I wish it was as easy as it probably is for him…he makes it look very easy and it probably is because he is selfish, and likely could give 2 shits about me, and has moved on to other girls( probably doing it in the last year we were together)..hence-all the signs of distance…the thing is..i feel like I mourn him..it’s like he died..and you think about them everyday..and a part of you misses them deeply…but then you have this ghost that haunts you…this ghost that you are around everyday..anyway…thanks again for your advice and for listening….
    Thank you so much as well Flipper–

    Flipper and Lisa…thanks for making me feel better about not responding to the letter..sometimes I feel like I shoul’ve said something, but like you said Flipper, by the time you find the right words, you sorta feel like too much time has passed….

    Take Care all…with Love LJ



  269.  #269LJ- on January 21, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Thanks for your compassion Flipper-it means alot. I responded to some things you said in a comment I sent to Lisa. Everything you said about responding to the letter was right on. That is part of how I felt and at the time I didn’t know what to say, i was dumbfounded and couldn’t believe I was hearing what I was from someone I was with for 4 years. Several people said I should of said something clever and witty and include in in a big F..U!!!..but for some reason I held back doin that….



  270.  #270Jennifer F on January 21, 2010 at 11:17 am

    Hello Ladies,

    I sorta understand what LJ is going through…. I have also been involved with a co-worker, who I would of called my boyfriend/imaginary relationship for over 2 years now. We have an age difference too of 6 years, but he is younger than me. He has totally pulled away from me too, and I don’t know how to handle it at work. He does a much better job of hiding his feelings than I do, because I am an emotional person by nature and don’t have much of a poker face. I also am to worried about HIS feellings, though it’s my heart that is breaking. I have been using Rori’s tool for a little less than a year, and at first, when I started using them, he snapped too attention. I started to get the type of affection and time that I wanted…. and then… it changed to the negative. Suddenly work really got in the way. I am his supervisor, and he started to really let his job go down, and I had to DO MY JOB. I found myself covering for him so he wouldn’t lose his job (not anything illegal or extemely serious… just showing up late and turning in weekly reports) He says he understands, that he knows that I am under alot of pressure and that he is messing up. Slowly over the last couple of months he has started to show up late to our dates, and when he is with me he’s busy on his facebook or twitter, and then he started to cancel dates at the last minute or a few minutes past, and then last night he just plain stood me up and didn’t call or text. I have been leaning so far back I feel like I am going to fall over!! I never initate the contact (unless it’s about work and I have to do my job) and I have told him, if he wants to spend time with me, he has to make the effort to call and if I am available, we will hang out…and nothing is happening…so know, I have to figure out how to not let my feelings of abondonment affect the way I conduct myself with him at work. I feel so hurt that he has pulled away from me like this. I actually feel a little used this time… he asked if he could come over the other night because he needed help with making a new resume. I said I would help him, because it is obvious that he is not happy at work and he’s not doing that great of a job. ANYWAY… when he called to come over I told him to give me an hour, and he was a bit surprised…but I made him wait. Then I called him and told him to come on over…and I sat there…waiting. I began on his resume, because it needed to get done. Finally he calls, and he says.. I’ll be there in like 10 minutes…. and 25 minutes later (That is something else he’s been doing. He use to be johnny on the spot, but now he is constantly late.) Finally he gets there, and I am practically done with the Resume. We fine tuned some things, and the whole time he was telling me how he didn’t deserve to have someone like me in his life. I told him that was silly, and reminded him that he does nice things for me too. (For example, on New Year’s Eve, he came over and shoveled my drive way … it’s really long and we’d had a huge snow storm…he was out there for like a hour and a half shoveling.. so that was a blessing!) We seemed to be enjoying ourselves, and then he said he had to go meet a friend to help him post his resume. He was leaving and said I’ll see you tomorrow night…meaning for our tv show night. So, there I wanted last night… I did not text him to remind him, and I didn’t call to see what time he was coming over… I just waited and then he no showed, with no call and no text message to explain why. I had gotten concerned about 40 minutes into the show that something had happened, so I texted him asking if he forgot or if something had happened… he never responed. I did notice that he was on facebook about that time… so really, I just got ignored. I am so hurt. The more space I give him, the more he takes. I am sadly looking forward to him leaving work, because I cannot hide the hurt in my eyes when I see him. I now fully realize that this guy is not into me… it hurts. I really miss his companionship and friendship. The question is… what do I do now? I would love for things to go back to the way they use to be… but I think that work has damaged to much between us. He is no longer drawn to me, and I can’t give him feeling messages because we never hang out anymore, and I can’t invite him over to talk because that is leaning forward, and I especially cannot talk to him about it at work, that would be uncomfortable and not the right setting. I feel stuck. Any suggestions?

    Thanks!



  271.  #271Rori Raye on January 21, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Turtle Girl – I’d like to jump off of this question I have for you – what exactly do you mean by “He is not my type, and we won’t be dating…”? What exactly was wrong with him? This is the breakthrough point for you, where you date men you can talk to. Also – please – no more sharing relationship horror stories with dates…stay with how you’re feeling NOW – in the presence of this new person. Love, Rori



  272.  #272Daria on January 21, 2010 at 11:45 am

    LJ –

    I know this may sound weird, but… is it possible for you to look for a new job?

    Yes, there’s the conventional wisdom of, “don’t let him push you around, or have him be the reason of NOT doing something, etc”

    However. You are STUCK seeing him all the time, and hearing him, and it feels HORRIBLE!! and keeps you STUCK! This job does NOT feel good (yes because of him, but still).

    I used to see a man I was in love with everyday, because we had ALL our close friends as mutual friends. I was not able to let him go UNTIL i STOPPED going to the place where all my mutual friends went. I tried to “be strong” etc, but that Didn’t work. For a LONG TIME!!

    I had to STOP going and meeting with my friends, even though I loved them and it seemed like one of my chief joys at the time. Because it was keeping me stuck.

    I am so glad i did it! And it was hard. But it was worth it. I feel glad to say i WAS in love with him, rather than am, now.

    Your life and happiness is more than your job, is it possible to be transferred or find a new one? I think your healing will go MUCH MUCH faster, and I doubt you will be saying….. oh i so wish i stayed in that old job where he was around.



  273.  #273LJ- on January 21, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Hi Turtle Girl, Thanks for your reply. It has been 2 1/2 months since he wrote me that letter, but it has been about 5-6 months since we “unofficially” broke up–remember–no talking, no closure, etc….
    I feel that if I had had some sort of talk or understanding which I of course, 100% deserved, after 4 years then, it wouldn’t be so hard. I never heard what he was thinking and he never took the time to hear me. The reason I got that letter in part was because after the first couple months of not talking and me confronting him in his office about blowing me off, i, on occasions sent him friendly texts and was still trying to give an olive branch..at that point..i felt that if things were going to end and he wanted them to end ..(which of course he never came out and said) then we could be civil and peaceful about it..that’s why once again I was the one reaching out…then after that letter…i left all alone…i was so hurt by it…i didn’t know what to do…and now here I am today…..
    ..i do have so much anger and pain..and as much as i try to get it out..it seems to grow at times….i feel so betrayed, abandoned, wronged, and just a fool……there are many reasons i am anger…i just got angry more today, and upset when I found out the following today.
    A friend of “ours”–invited him to her birthday party but didn’t invite me. She is part of a huge group of friends who we have hung out with on many occasions over the years–this group we go camping with, etc..and this girl, I have gotten to know and really like…for her b-day, i sent her even a card and a gift…well..every year there is a party she has several parties, and she always has one for her birthday…i found out today..like I said..that he was invited and i basically was axed…The reason I’m guessing is because I know all this people b/c of him…I keep in some contact with them but don’t know what they know..haven’t really said much to them…so apparently he is saying things..and it makes me wonder what kind of b.s. he is telling them..b/c i got no answers, and I’m sure he is not going to let everyone know how much of an ass he is/was by any means…..anyway..it just hurts…this was a fun group of people and I cared for them as well…I feel almost in a weird sense abandoned by them too….in addition..the people I work with and are friends with here are also friends with him..only a few know what’s going on b/c we kept it such a secret..but I keep wondering..what do they know, what has he said…but since I’m tryiong not to talk about him to others that are his friends b/c I don’t want it to get back to him..i say nothing…
    …anyway…there I go venting…thanks for listening



  274.  #274LJ- on January 21, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    Lisa, also you and turtle girl mentioned how he acted cruel which I 100% agree with. One of the things that really bothers me is that when I’m at work or when he is around others, they get to see that side of him that I fell in love with, the fun, charming, character, caring, etc….so they aren’t exposed to the cruelty, selfish, narcissitic, personality that I have seen…they think he’s wonderful..they adore him,…it angers me so much that i get treated like this and am exposed to that hidden side that no one knows..that they don’t see..that I was blinded too, and that they are blinded to….and he goes on…w/o a care in the world I assume..w/ no thought of me or no remorse for how he acted…



  275.  #275Flipper on January 21, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    Yay for you, Candace! And thanks for including your sons in your program – not only is that a great service to them and yourself, but for our daughters.



  276.  #276Flipper on January 21, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Janine, I feel far more lonely when I’m in this kind of dead-end relationship than when I’m on my own. And hopeless to boot, because ‘I’ feel committed so I don’t allow myself to let anyone else close enough to try for better. What do you think?



  277.  #277Daria on January 21, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Candace – wow so fast!

    please DO let your guard down! this is what we’re working on here, allowing ourselves to be vulnerable.

    so open your heart, and share youre feelings, and LEAN BACK



  278.  #278Jen on January 21, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    Hi,

    I haven’t commented on the blog in a while. but I know exactly how LJ feels. I work with my ex and it is extremely hard to forget about someone when you run the chance of seeing them everyday. Even though we don’t see each other every day, we do run into each other occasionally. I try to be as nice as possible and we act cordial.

    For my experience, it’s definitely better that you decide NOT to see him or fall into a friends with benefits situation. That is what I’m dealing with right now and instead of the pain getting better, it makes it so much worse. It makes you feel crazy, ashamed and wondering why you’re so weak. I have to work everyday not to want to email or talk to him. The worst part about everything is he has already moved in with someone else and is planning on getting married in May. He’s giving her all the things that he didn’t WANT to give me.

    I’m hoping that it will get better and I wonder if I’ll ever meet anyone else that will effect me the way he did; well in the good ways when we were together.



  279.  #279Turtle Girl on January 21, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    Hi Rori-

    This man is not my type for several reasons. I get the vibe that even though he is a good man, he would not personality wise be compatible with me. He is an anal neat freak type, I am a messy artist. He spends money like water-I am extremely fiscal conservative. AND he is physically very unattractive to me. The thought of him touching me makes my skin crawl, so obviously that will never do-no kissing or sex. Neit.
    So there were many reasons. I would love to be able to fall in love with someone good even if they were not physically attractive to me-but I have tried that in the past and it just did not work. I can not force myself to be attracted to a man. And it is dishonest! Not fair to him-he I am sure wants a woman who wants him! Just as I do. I am holding out for the good man who I also find attractive.

    As far as the relationship horror story goes-he was telling me his first, he offered, I did not ask, and he asked me about mine. I probably should have found a way to politely express I did not wish to discuss it, however how would I have found out that he thought it was cruel for my ex to behave like that? So was it all that bad?

    I appreciate your thoughts and advise on this. I am trying very hard to stay focused on how I feel in the presence of the men I am dating. And I accomplish it sometimes and sometimes not. Baby steps as you say. This is why I am dating so much. I need lots of practice to recognize, and evaluate a man who is not toxic and really listen to what he has to say. It IS a breakthrough-you are right- and I will tell you why. The stark difference between my old toxic man and the men I have been having coffee with is that most of them actually can have a conversation about feelings. They are not on “lockdown” like toxic man. They are engaged with me. They are listening and they are present. I am practicing feeling messages and they work.
    Love,
    Turtle Girl



  280.  #280Turtle Girl on January 21, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    I went through the very same stuff LJ. I know how you feel. The betrayal, the abandonment, it sticks in our craw on so many levels. I had to face that my man did not have the same level of values and morals as I did. When he told me stuff like I deserved better-well-I know know he was being totally honest. I do! They know when they are being assclowns and if they have no morality or values that cause them to behave better then they simply do not! Again, as I wrote in my original guest post-I WAS THERE. Honey, you were there- had you taught him to respect you and showed him through your own behavior not to not treat you and if you had not tolerated some of the stuff he did, then things would have been very different. I look back at the dynamic of me and toxic man and I am appalled at ME! I am angry at me! I am 100% responsible for my actions and feelings. I was there. I can not even blame him. If he was toxic and a loser or a jerk or whatever, I put up with it for 6 months!!!! It takes two to tango. We are really angry at ourselves. Blaming him is never going to fix it! We have to look at our own stuff big time.
    I am not saying he is a great guy or even innocent-I am saying, the betrayal would have never happened had I walked away or done something different in the beginning. Toxic men will go as far as you let them. They will take everything you give and then some. Why wouldn’t they? I mean such a deal for them. We do all the work. When I finally woke up from my toxic dream of “someday my prince will come” and smelled the coffee I felt like a fool too. He did not appreciate what he had, but I did not have good boundaries in place. I was not respecting myself. I was not speaking out and up for me. I was telling him with my inaction and not saying anything exactly what he could get away with. A man can’t abuse someone if they don’t let themselves be abused.



  281.  #281Turtle Girl on January 21, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    LJ-
    My toxic man was just exactly like this. Charming, loving to others, everyone’s friend, lots of people think he is so great!!!! And he is- to them. It is only in close intimate relationships that these men bring out their dark sides. This triggered something for me. I remember my mother saying this same thing about my dad. Everyone thought daddy was so nice-but the bruises on my mom’s legs told a different story…..

    And even though my toxic man did not ever hit me or do anything like that, and I do not believe he ever would-he was still emotionally and verbally abusive. So we suffer in silence and see the real deal of how these men truly are. It makes you wants to tell everyone who he really is, but that would only make you look like an ass. It is possible that people would not believe you anyway. Anyone that is friends with him would just think you had “sour grapes” because he dumped you or whatever. So why bother. Suffice it to be enough that you are done with this man. Salvage your pride and self esteem and begin the process of healing yourself the best way you can.

    I believe in karma-what goes around comes around and you may never know what some day he will get exactly what he deserves. There is a saying-you get to keep what you give away. I think that because I was loving and caring to him that even though he was wrong-I can remain a loving and caring person. He will always be a turd unless he has some sort of revelation. I gave from my heart – I just threw my pearls before swine. I won’t do that again. I will make my man earn my love and respect-I will not give it freely without thought of who he is, until I know him better and am sure he deserves everything that I have to give.



  282.  #282Lisa on January 21, 2010 at 6:33 pm

    LJ,

    How interesting. My ex is now 63, and I am 45. I, too thought he’d be more mature. He is just old!

    If someone is cold, or absent, they will not feel for anyone but themselves. Read Steve Martin’s book, Shopgirls. It is about such a man. Because we gave our hearts, we do mourn. That is because we are human.

    It does not matter that others know. It is enough that you know who he is. Why do we care how deeply in denial he may be, or what a great actor he is? All that matters is, we can do better. there is no vindication, other than living your best life.

    You will one day hate that you even let him know he got to you, you will revile him so much. I think that is normal, once you accept what has happened. A little later, we will pity him.

    We can find men not on power trips. The men we had see their “greatness flickering before them.” Unfortunately, people are tools to them — tools for their tools. That a 62-yr-old said you can be a FB is reprehensible. Reprehensible at any age.

    Your skin will crawl, soon, and you will be happy you no longer subjugate yourself. See the movie, 9 1/2 Weeks. To reject that sort of treatment is strength. You mourn b/c you are human. Feel all of it, then move on. You will not want a man who treats you like a doormat. He is vile.



  283.  #283janine on January 21, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    yes flipper I know what you mean i do feel lonely angry and sad, although we still see each other i have no started my moving away emotionally from him, it is a bit like drugs really weaning yourself off him, the bizarre thing is, it is being in a relationship i want not so much him, and that was hard to admit, i was in another violent relationship for 12 years but was so obsessed with him also found it difficult to get out of so it must lie with me, I moved 600 miles away! then i stayed on my own for nearly 3 years and just worked hour after hour and doing a house up so tired i would fall into bed and not think, so i thought this kind man was the one totally differnet but now i see and we have discussed how he does control matters, he is very mild but he tends to control things even in his meekness, i.e. his said about a friend yrs ago wanted to go somewhere when they were on a journey and he didnt so it dint happen,!!
    he did stay last night but he pushed for it i wasnt that bothered. but when i think of him not being at the end of a phone call i feel lost, i dont know how to date, and having no single friends dont know how to. i met him threw my work i am a proffessional clairvoyant and yes saw it coming but it is an isolated job people come to me or ring me when they are in turmoil. so hard to meet people without hang ups.
    i just need somehow to find away forward i dont want that empty time i had before with nothing but work in my life. but at least i have realised one thing i do want a relationship now someone who cares and wants to be with me, it is just knowing how to bring it in, i do feel though emotionally i am breaking free of him.



  284.  #284DocK on January 22, 2010 at 6:42 am

    If the pain is fairly recent from a break-up and someone asks, it can be tough to not go into the icky details but I have finally learned – even in that instance to say less. If it really was a “nightmare” relationship (and I have had ’em) I just say something like, ‘That relationship didn’t feel good and so I have left it behind. I feel grateful that I learned so much from it about myself and it has helped me with my boundaries and clarity of what I want that makes me feel good.’ If it was one that didn’t work out because of timing or just not strong enough feelings or something not so drastic I say, ‘He’s a good guy. It just didn’t work out. I felt a little sad about it but we were just not on the same page. We released each other and it felt gentle and I’m OK.’

    In either instance it can open up a dialogue about what I do want. Sometimes the guy wants to know, “Well, what did HE do that wasn’t right or bad or whatever?” and I can move it away from that back to just being clear about my boundaries and what I am seeking at this time in my life. What the present guy has to say about that tells me a lot about who he is, what he wants in a relationship and whether he’s someone to just enjoy in “rockstar” fashion, disqualify, or hmmm – this has potential (without a desperate vibe and picking out the china pattern).



  285.  #285LJ- on January 25, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Turtle Girl-sorry it took me so long to respond…thanks for your words…you are strong and though some days I am stronger than others and am better than I was say 6 months ago…i get so many moments of weakness especially being at work with him….You are right about being angry w/ yourself. I am angry with him, but yes I am very angry with myself because I feel like a fool. At some point with him I started putting up with crap, ignoring red flags, and trying WAY to hard–doing–doing–doing…I know this and I know I did this big time after he gave me the silent treatment last year around Christmas time..and we somehwat “reconciled” if can even call it that, and then had another year together…in essence though, I really I wasn’t happy..b/c I felt like I couldn’t trust him…and then I felt like I wasn’t myself..and did the overfunctioning thing, repressing feelings all that….i knew things weren’t right…i never had evidence of him cheating, etc. but I always suspected it..by the way he started acting, and the way he would look at girls in front of me…i remember going through this period of trying to act like things didn’t bother me…like when he looked at other girls …i’m not talking about a glance…it was more like staring..looking up and down every female ….i was “acting” like what I was thinking at the time was the “cool” thing to do…act like it didn’t phase me..like I was so secure, it didn’t bother me, etc….anyway..that’s what alot of relationship books would say to do…that if you acted like that..it would bring him closer…what a joke…actually I was allowing myself to be miserable, playing the “cool” role and denying/repressing my feelings…..i think in one of your posts you said..to believe what the guy says..listen to them when they say something like..”I just wanna have Fun!…or Why don’t we just be friends…when I look back there was a time when he said stuff like this, but maybe once in the 4 years..so I guess I didn’t pay much attention…or did not want to……i did throw my pearls at swine…i just keep having to remind myself too that the people around him don’t know the dickhead he really is…



  286.  #286LJ- on January 25, 2010 at 9:34 am

    I wish I could leave and eventually may try, but because of other situations in my life..yes I am stuck here for at least a lil while..your so right about the friends thing too, because as most everyone knows..after a breakup…you hurt too because you lose friends that you made through him…they may even like you better than him, or become super close, but its like since they knew him first, they have to cut you out in a sense b/c he did…so all the fun events and things you did for years with these people as a couple..well..your not a couple anymore..so i guess we’ll invite him to everything now, and we’ll have to leave U out!!!…it sucks..but unfortunately that’s how it is…Some of our mutual aquaintances..outside work..have contacted me and ask me out to dinner etc…but I don’t even think I should go b/c I’ll probably just think or feel like talking about HIM…and its like in order to really move forward from this…i probably should try to stay away as much as possible from anyone affiliated with him…God knows that’s impossible at work but outside work, I usually try the best I can…



  287.  #287LJ- on January 25, 2010 at 9:41 am

    Lisa, Thanks so much for your words.They are empowering and make me feel better. I will definitely read and/watch ShopGirls..I have never seen it before and had no clue it was from a novel written by Steve Martin. I read a synopsis on it and it sounds very interesting and looks like something revelant to my story. I’ll also remember tyo watch 9 1/2 weeks again sometime. It’s been years since I’ve seen it and can’t remember most the story. But, if anything, I will get chills again from seeing a “young, gorgeous” Mickey Rourke when he was extremely sexy back in his heyday.



  288.  #288Lisa on January 25, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    LJ,

    I’m glad you feel better sharing. I do, too.

    I saw you mentioned you were unsure of whether to meet privately with mutual acquaintances. I am mixed on this. I have spoken with those who know him — actually, they have contacted me. These are the people who have informed me of what went on, so I am grateful to them. Eventually, they will become less and less a part of my life, but for the recent past, they have been an invaluable support.

    It was icky talking about him, and now I am getting to a point where it is no longer necessary. I have told all that needs voicing.

    So I would just say, if it helps you, if they are trusted, then why not enjoy their company. If it becomes a bit voyeuristic on their part (and you don’t like this), then you know not to meet with them. Just politely demur.

    That my p.o.v. — I like to enlist all of my resources 🙂



  289.  #289candace on January 26, 2010 at 7:50 am

    I found out this weekend that he saw an old girlfriend over christmas. “nothing happened”. But his 7yr old told me differently. I have stopped talking to him, but I want to so badly. I’m such an idiot. This is my out with him. Right? But I want so much for him to see how much I deserve better that I’ve talked myself into using him to practice my processes here. I want to tell him no, I won’t drive to his house, but he can come to mine. No, I can’t keep your kids for you. No, I can’t type your letters for you. But am I really just finding a way to keep him in my life? At least until my birthday and valentines passes? I don’t want to be alone for these. Again. I guess I’m asking for permission from someone to use him to practice my leaning back and stuff. I know I have no future with him. I will never trust him again. Ever.



  290.  #290Simply Shannon on January 26, 2010 at 8:42 am

    Candace: I feel awful hearing your news. How are you feeling? Maybe writing that down here will help you experience them more. I’ve so been that girl that did not want to be alone for certain things. It’s interesting because I’m seeing someone right now and he’s going to be away for Valentine’s Day. It took me right back to being that insecure little girl who is imagining the big blinking sign above my head that says “Yes, I’m alone on Valentines again. Loser is my name.” But that is my nasty voice talking. I won’t be alone that day. Maybe I’ll just be without a love interest but not alone, alone. Ya know? Maybe I’ll have another date that day or maybe I’ll date myself and go all out this year.

    So here’s my thought about giving a man a “pass” on his behavior just so we aren’t alone… when we give the wrong man space in our life, that’s just one more day that life passes US by. One more day that keeps another man, our true love, from entering our life. YEARS could pass by if we do this for “just one more day”. Does that make sense?

    Explore your feelings here. And then love those feelings, especially the ones you think are really ugly or frighten you. Love yourself. Remember that you are beautiful even when you make imperfect choices and experience moments of weaknesses. If you want to talk to him and keep him in your life, that’s okay. Just acknowledge that you’re doing it. Be bold with yourself. For me that’s how I got my rockstar self back.

    And circular date. Not tomorrow, not a week from now. Today. It doesn’t have to be a “date” date. Just go out and smile at a man. If a man talks to you, then talk back. See how it feels. That is all that circular dating has to be until you’re ready for more.

    Sending you (((HUGS))) across the miles. I’m sorry you’re hurting.



  291.  #291candace on January 26, 2010 at 9:48 am

    I had already started pulling back from him since I read Rori’s book and got some advice on here. And that felt good. Right now I feel weak, sad, hurt, broken, used, manipulated, stuck, miserable, scared, small, very angry, and ugly. At the same time I feel a little powerful in knowing that I have choices right this minute that will help me get through this. I can choose to move forward with or without him. I can choose to do what feels better and good. I can choose not to be all those bad feelings above. I can use this to learn more about my femanine engergy and grace. He just know exactly how to talk to me to get to me. All I want from him right this second is for him to remorseful and regretful for what his has done to me and his son, and he is not. All he is focused on his getting me back. But for the wrong reasons, he can’t stand to fail. IF I choose to keep him my life it has to be on my terms. Right? I don’t think I will ever trust him again. Ever. But for right now I can’t let go. And that is okay? I just want to be happy and I know it will not be with him. So I will start today, right now to phase him out of my life. I have nothing to lose by doing this slowly. I don’t think. I feel better knowing that I am in control of this choice I am making for myself. He does not deserve me. And I am so glad I will not be his babysitter anymore. I will miss those boys so much, but I have to be happy for me. Not them. Thanks so much for helping see this situation from a better perspective.



  292.  #292candace on January 27, 2010 at 8:19 am

    I called the girl last night and found out alot. He did sleep with her. He told her that he and I were just friends, not sexual, and I was not the girl for him. I don’t know what took over me. Anger, Pain, Numbness?? I took ALL my feelings and just went with them. I drove to his house on the premise of needing to talk about things. I flirted with him by text on the way, we had sex (all my idea, not that he objected), and afterwards I said that I had talked to her. His face was priceless.

    I told him that I didn’t want anything from him other than the truth. I told him I understood that he was screwed up, sucked at relationships and was very selfish. I offered him a relationship at that very moment where he could be totally honest with me about why and whatever else he needed to tell me. He had nothing to lose. Our relationship was over anyway and we could never get back to me trusting him fully. But at that very moment he could be who he was, ugly, selfish, sad, scared whatever with me. I was letting go of him and the focus of him being my happiness. I told him I realized that he could not do that for me, nor did he want to. I just simply was offering him the chance to be open and honest with a woman, not hiding who he was. At first he denied and defended. I got up and told him I was dissappointed, but I understood and there was nothing left to say or do. I was leaving. I, of course got upset and emotional, he calmly asked me to stay for a few minutes.

    We layed down, him holding me, and he said nothing. I started to get up and he asked me to be still with him, he needed to tell me some things. I remembered the to be quiet and listen and just laid there. He eventually opened up to me and poured out his heart. He told me things that he felt about me, and her, and everything. I didn’t interupt or comment. He finally asked me to comment and I shared with him what I was going through and feeling. How scared I was of our relationship, and that I didn’t know if there was one at all. We eventually fell asleep. This morning he called and told me that for the first time he felt like someone actually loved him and was not giving up on him, regardless of how much he hurt me.

    I don’t know what to do now?? Everything is changing in me. My wants, my needs, my goals. I am, and I told him this, looking out for me. I told him I was releasing my hold on him and we could take it one day after the other. I told him I may never forgive him. Ever. He said he understood.

    What do I do now? What I’m doing? Is there something I should have done differently? Am I complete fool that I’m even talking to this man?



  293.  #293peal on January 27, 2010 at 9:16 am

    candace:

    OMG, That was so beautiful! Everything you have done!

    I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE you so much! You are so courageous, so sensual, so full of love!

    If you still want to give him a chance, date him, as you date anyone else. If you don’t, you don’t. The world is so FULL of love. You deserve something much much better and you WILL have what you want.

    Hugs, you are NEVER going to be alone on Valentine EVER. Feel the LOVE all around you, in the air…. Can you feel my love when you breath it in?

    Love,
    peal



  294.  #294Rori Raye on January 27, 2010 at 11:23 am

    peal, Welcome, and thank you for the glorious words of encouragement…Love, Rori



  295.  #295Simply Shannon on January 27, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Candace: Wow. It’s really interesting reading your story because you are a mirror of my behavior last year with a BF who cheated on me. Sitting on this side of the fence I want to scream WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?, but knowing I was in the same boat (I did the same things), I feel compassion.

    When I found out my BF cheated on me, I felt HORRIBLE, worthless, ugly, and betrayed. It broke my heart but afterwards I convinced myself that I should forgive and still talk to him (mainly because I missed him so much). I felt so worthless that I would rather have a lying, cheating man than no man at all. And that worked for awhile. Embarrassing to admit but I think I got off on the fact that he was paying me back in a way for doing me wrong. At least I felt better than him. No matter how worthless I felt, at least I didn’t “cheat” and that made me feel good and powerful.

    In the end though, my trust was gone and my jealousy ate away at me. I couldn’t stand it any longer. As I got healthier, I realized I deserved more. It broke my heart when things ended. I still think of him. (He just texted me earlier this week.)

    Ask yourself what are you getting out of this and why you would sleep with someone you know betrayed you.



  296.  #296candace on January 27, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    I think I am getting some satisfaction of being in control right now. Even if it is not real, it feels real. I told him that we were no longer GF & BF, not sure what we are other than two messed up people searching for happiness. I do not trust him and don’t see myself ever again. I will never forgive him for cheating on me.
    So I think I’m also getting some good experience here in this crazy relationship. I get to have a man that I already know, loved and don’t need in my life to practice and learn how to improve on me.
    I have already started the process of telling him no and telling him how I feel. This does work. I want to get what I can out of this. And I also know that I can not quit him cold turkey. I have to ease out of this.
    I can acknowledge that someone may say I’m using him or this isn’t being fair to him. I don’t care. This isn’t about him anymore. This is about me getting over a horrible moment inmy life and moving on. If along the way he can learn a few things about how to treat a woman, great. And I hope he does. It just won’t be me.
    I truely believe that he will hurt me again and again it I allow it. And I will do my best to not let that happen.
    Thanks for the advice. I do need all the support I can get. I don’t mind the devil’s advocate side either. I need to hear it.



  297.  #297Kath on January 31, 2010 at 2:42 am

    Candace,
    I so feel what you’re going through and I remember it well-I gave my now x- toxic guy so many chances including to this day believing that he cheated on me twice in the space of three months!- Every time I did the feeling speeches he would crumble, say he was sorry that he loved me-blah,blah-and then old patterns would emerge again-same old behaviour-same thoughtless comments and me feeling like crap. I never trusted him because of things he said and did- even telling me one time that he thought alot when he was out with his friends about whether I would like the way he acted or things he said to people-!!!- Alarm bells rang then- and then one night we were out together and a random woman came up to me and asked if I was with him-when I said yes-she said I should be careful of him as he had led her on before- But when I told him what she’d said-he said he was trying to fix her up with a mate- Soo many lies!!- soo much distrust!- I am soo angry-and yes-with myself!!-I’m an intelligent woman!-why did I allow myself to be treated that way!!!!!!!!!!



  298.  #298candace on February 1, 2010 at 7:48 am

    Kath: when did you decide that enough was enough?

    Our weekend started out well. HE drove to my house and stayed Friday night. Saturday he took me out to eat, movie and bought me some clothes. Then things started falling apart when he asked me to go to the store for him Sunday morning and I said no. He acted like I owed it to him for Saturday night. I asked him about this and he said that it wasn’t right or his right to feel that way, he just did. Then he put on a jacket that he told me he had bought for himself. I knew the girl, slut, got it for him when he was with her. I asked him to get rid of it and he through a fit. He said he had never had a Ohio jacket and he wanted to keep it, not for sentimental reasons, he just liked it. I told him that it hurt me to see him wear it because if her and because he lied to me about where he got it. He threw it in the trash reluctantly and very angry. I felt bad. Was I wrong for asking him to do this? I just was hurt again when he wore it. He can buy himself one. I feel like he is an addiction that I can not quit. This lack of control is killing me. I think after this weekend I have a little more perspective on the relationship. I got to use my feelings and tried to acknowledge them one at time when they came up. We’ll see.



  299.  #299Katheryn on February 1, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    I totally love this. I am woman! lol



  300.  #300Kath on February 1, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Candace-You have to ask yourself a serious question here-just like I had to-weigh it all up in your mind-what is it that you’re really getting out of this relationship?- Do you feel that you’re trying too hard to make someone else happy so that you may be happy because you think they are because you’re doing everything to make sure they are??- There may be certain things that he is doing that make you feel that its going in the right direction, that none of the other stuff means the same-but then the crumbs fall and he says something or you’re reminded that he isn’t totally with you like you want him to be-and then you do more to block out what you know he’s already done or said that has hurt you- There comes a time when you do have to stop-stop it all-and really look at what’s going on and accept that this is not what you want-so why keep working on something that is not going to come right, no matter how hard you try.
    It took a while for me to see that whilst a part of him did love me, there was and is a bigger part that wants me to “do” for him-and that’s not what I want-I was tired of it being my hard work all the time and of feeling that what I was doing was never enough. Candace, you’re going the right way-be brave and be strong-he is not worthy of your time or your love-you are worth your time and your love-you are more important and if he doesn’t see that then you have to break the habit-go cold turkey and get the hell off out of there- I’m thinking of you. Its not easy, but My God in time you will look on him as the waste of your precious time that he obviously is. X



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  302.  #302Spiral on October 3, 2011 at 10:11 am

    I know this post is old, but I just found this website not too long ago and this post is my absolute favorite! (so far!) I am putting a shortcut on my desktop so I can read it over and over.

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    Thank you.