Love Tips From a Man

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Here’s a great comment from a man (let’s call him Edgar) with great insight and tips for how to get closer to a man emotionally, help him open up to you, and just simply talk with him. He’s writing it in response to Laurie, who wrote about the man she’s seeing: “I want to know the real man. He is so protective that I don’t believe I’ll ever really know his heart.” Edgar says:

“No you don’t want to know the real man! Trust me on this, it will only make you sad and bewildered. We guys don’t think like you –  we don’t care about the same things you do.

Every time I have been able to share my true heart with a woman she has thrown it away.

Most men have very similar experiences and this is why we don’t share our hearts.

Women do not understand what we want or care about. This is especially true of the more technically minded males.

When you are upbeat and positive towards your male, he will open up more:

1) Do not laugh at him or think he is joking when he tells you that his true passion is something you find absurd.

2) Do not lose interest in him once you really understand him (This one is all too common.) Most women love the discovery and mystery of a man, but once they figure him out he isn’t interesting anymore.

3) DO NOT EVER force him to face you directly when talking to him about something emotional or personal to him.

Sitting next to each other while driving or swinging on a porch swing etc. is a much better way.

For men, face to face is the posture of confrontation, shoulder to shoulder is the posture of cooperation.”

I thought these tips were both practical – especially about sitting next to a man instead of facing him – and deep – about men feeling that if they open their hearts to us we’ll trample them…

Let me know how this lands with you…

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1Yvette on July 26, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    Thank you, Edgar.

  2.  #2Lesli Doares on July 26, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    I love this, thank you. Women need to realize that we don’t have a corner on what makes relationships work. The man’s perspective is tremendously important and “Edgar” nails it. Men and women are designed differently for a reason. When we learn to accept and embrace those differences we will be on the road to relationship success.

  3.  #3Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    At my most intimate moments with Ryan last year, we were cuddling and talking at a deep level. When he felt my love and acceptance, he opened up. He would gaze at me for a long time, and I wonder if he was gathering his courage to say things like, “I care for you”; “I love you”; “I love spending time with you!” Sometimes when he didn’t seem to find the courage, he would play romantic music loudly and just gaze at me endlessly. He told me once it was very difficult for him to speak his feelings. I loved the moments when he spoke his loving feelings. I also cherished the moments when I felt his love in the silence. I felt good being part of his vibe.

  4.  #4Kimberly on July 26, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    Sounds good to me. Thanks Edgar.

  5.  #5Karen on July 26, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Makes sense to me!

  6.  #6Nicole Rosa on July 26, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Edgar says: “No you don’t want to know the real man! Trust me on this, it will only make you sad and bewildered. We guys don’t think like you – we don’t care about the same things you do.” More specifics please! Why would the real man make us sad and bewildered? You say you don’t care about the same things we do. Can you tell us what you DO care about? Thank You.

  7.  #7Violet on July 26, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    This is fascinating. It also feels true. But it raises more questions for me. I’d love to hear more about the kinds of things guys are really passionate about? And, thank you “Edgar”, for taking the time to share! 🙂

  8.  #8Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    “Most women love the discovery and mystery of a man, but once they figure him out he isn’t interesting anymore.”

    That’s why I want a man who is deep and multi-faceted and truly interesting to me, a man who is always growing and learning and evolving. I DO love the discovery and mystery of a man — that is why guys like winker hottie and TN man appeal to me, rather than guys who just dump out every part of themselves right away, and then stay the same.

  9.  #9Rachel on July 26, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    One of the guys in my CD rotation has a birthday tomorrow! I’ve been leaning back and I feel like we are in a good place. But I’m not sure what to do about the birthday…

    Is it leaning forward to wish him happy birthday, give a small gift, send a note, etc? This is what my instincts would do, but I don’t want to mess things up … most importantly, I don’t want to lose my “goddess” vibe that I’ve worked so hard to find!

    Any thoughts? Quickly? Since this is tomorrow!


  10.  #10Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    Hi Rachel. There was a big discussion about that exact issue awhile back — with no real consensus. However, just recently, Rori wrote something to someone on here, and said, sure, a happy birthday text is fine.

    Imo, I wouldn’t give a gift or anything else though.

  11.  #11Rachel on July 26, 2010 at 6:46 pm

    Thank you, Lucy. Just curious… does anyone have any thoughts about WHEN in a relationship, it’s ok to give gifts? How do you know when you’ve reached that point where it’s ok? It seems to me that there has to be a point … Rori… do you give your husband birthday gifts?!

  12.  #12Daria on July 26, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    Rachel – I think if he’s given you lots of gifts then it would be cool to give him one, just not bigger or equal to his

  13.  #13Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    That “hoping” experiment I did a few days ago is getting excellent results!!! Things have happened exactly the way I hoped them (although I didn’t hope for enough!!!):

    1. Garden guy asked me out.
    2. I just now heard from TN man (nothing important or great, but I got what I “hoped,” which was “hearing from him soon.”)
    3. Winker Hottie contacted me again and mentioned wanting to meet me.
    4. garden guy was cute, exciting and fun (not a lot, but more than I had expected.)

    Those were all things I wrote that I hoped for in #225 on the He says it’s over thread!

    The only thing I wrote that did not come true yet is “I hope lit prof contacts me out of the blue and asks me on a date.”

    So, still hoping that one. And now I will take it a step further:

    1. I hope TN man engages me on a deep, personal level again. Very soon.
    2. I hope winker hottie makes solid plans to meet me very soon.
    3. I hope I meet the perfect man for me, in person, by the end of next weekend.


  14.  #14Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    Rachel, I like Daria’s answer.

  15.  #15Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    I’m adding one:

    4. I hope the Sculptor emails me this week. 🙂

  16.  #16Nikita on July 26, 2010 at 9:55 pm


    wish him a happy b-day 🙂 he’s a Leo and feeling remembered is huge in their book

  17.  #17Candy on July 27, 2010 at 1:08 am

    yes, I remeber with my recent ex, he once held my hands, looked into my eyes and said passionate things. I didn’t know why, I felt weird and a bit uncomfortable. I responded with some rational thoughts / words ( I had yet met Rori ). He said that I discounted him and refused him. I guess it might be what is referred to as “Every time I have been able to share my true heart with a woman she has thrown it away.” I didn’t mean it and I felt regret after saying what I said. I was caught off-guard as I did not expect that from a man. I didn’t know of feminine energy. Yes, I did find it a bit absurd. Or maybe I think that I would feel more comfortable or feel more solid when I experience love in action, e.g. nice gesture, gifts, being taken care of etc. I just didn’t know how to react. Maybe subconsciously, I just did not feel comfortable buying into words (which can be empty words) that may not be real. I remember my thought was that how was he going to implement his words how was he going to actually show me.
    Or some guys are just good at it, great words, promises and beautiful plans but never realized or followed up. That is why I guard myself more around guys who always have no shortage of flowery and promising words.

  18.  #18Kath on July 27, 2010 at 9:50 am

    Hi Ladies,
    I need your advice and perhaps Edgar’s too!- The guy I am in a relationship with and living with has not treated me very well in the past and I still have times when I feel very insecure in his feelings for me. We split up a year ago because I was convinced he was seeing someone else- but when I asked him he flatly denied it- but then I checked his mobile phone and found lots of messages to and from a woman who’s name wasn;t listed in his contacts. I told him I had looked at it and he went crazy told me that a “friend” of his had given out his number and that as both the friend and the woman were married he’d allowed it to go on. But then one night he actually sent a text infront of me to this woman apparently finishing the relationship on behalf of his friend. I moved out shortly after- A year on and we’re trying again but he has recently started going out on a saturday night with the same male friend- and can’t understand why I am really upset and angry about it!!!!- Help!!!!!- I feel like I’m the one who’s in the wrong- I need some siren advice!!!

  19.  #19Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 10:39 am

    I need help understanding this scenerio–A friend of mine & I are dating guys who are also good friends. I happened to find out that the guy my friend is seeing actually has a girlfriend for almost a year now. I know the girl but not as well as my friend so of course I have to tell my friend. My friend posted something on her guy’s FB wall about them being together & the girlfriend read it & posted on her FB wall about her lying cheating boyfriend. My friend & I both made comments under the girlfriends comment telling her it’s not her fault but his. Anyway, to make a long story short…both guys got mad at us! They blame us. Yes, we know the posting on FB was not right & we apologized for that & deleted our postings the very next morning. The guy I was seeing sent me a text telling me to never contact him again & called me a whore, bitch, & skank! I didn’t do a thing to him. He is just mad because of his friend. And the other guy is still with the girlfriend & wants nothing to do with my friend. Can someone please explain to me how my friend & I ended up the bad guy’s in all of this & everyone else is fine??? The guy & girlfriend have been together almost a year, but six months of that time he was with my friend. And the girlfriend kept him, why??? I just cannot wrap my head around this.

  20.  #20Nikita on July 27, 2010 at 12:06 pm


    Is this the birthday guy…..fb drama???

  21.  #21Daria on July 27, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    Rachel- my guess is your guys were really immature. The one guy wanted to see the ‘girlfriend’ more than see your friend. Maybe the girlfriend provides something for him… Like money. She kept him because she’s emotionally immature also, and she felt relieved and flattered that he didn’t leave her.

    The guy you were dating got caught up in his friends

    feelings… I’ve seen guys do this a lot. So he got mad at you. The men framed it as you two starting drama and trying yo ruin his friends life.

    So not to be left out and out of male bonding the guy decided yell at you.

    I hope that you don’t date him anymore.. It doesn’t feel good to be treated that way… Immaturity level way high.

    But using rori

  22.  #22Daria on July 27, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    Using Rori tools.., what do u think is the message for you ?

    I feel horrified and my tummy would drop and I would feel betrayed and numb. And furious and powerless and awful.

  23.  #23Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    No,Nikita, and I am a different Rachel. I will add something to my name so we will be different. lol

  24.  #24Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    Thanks Daria…your words are exactly what I’ve been told. However,it’s still hard to let go & forget the guy I was seeing since there was really no closure & we liked each other. I really doubt we will ever talk again so there is no possibility of us seeing one another again. I’m still trying to understand & use Rori’s tools. I am still very new to this! Thanks again!!!

  25.  #25Daria on July 27, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Rachel- for me… Bein turned on by a man unexpectedly would feel shocking and so bad. It would trigger my nasty voices that I’m not good enough.

    Thus, weird enough, I would feel pining for him… Wishing this allcould be ok… And feeling sad at not having his positive approval.

    This happened to me recently when a guy I like got drunk and threw me against a car.,. I still talked to him… After a few days break… Bevcause I missed him.. And somehow numbed out way happened.

    The rori rate way here is to take every interaction with a man and look for what the message is for your growth?

    Ps- most likely this guy will be back – men tend to not leave- and call you

  26.  #26Daria on July 27, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    Ps since men always come back there is never any closure.. Rori says no closure is ever needed… And it’s one of our nmost attractive tools… Not looking for closure.

  27.  #27Renee on July 27, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Rachel — One of Rori’s teaching’s is that we don’t need to control things and part of that is “letting it go” and that means no closure in many cases. I understand how you feel, because I would feel hurt crummy if I were seeing someone and something like this happened to abruptly end it with no closure, but I think Daria’s right. I think you just need to let it go…what do you think?

  28.  #28Renee on July 27, 2010 at 1:03 pm

    Daria — I hadn’t heard the part about men always coming back — that’s interesting. It does often seem to be the case in my life too!

  29.  #29Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    I feel torn. One part of me says to let it go & the other part say’s,yeh, but I liked him & I wasn’t finished with him yet. I’m not sure where it would have gone, but I would have like to have been able to find out. It’s not fair. I think he deleted my number out of his phone & he has no way to contact me even if he wanted to.

  30.  #30Rori Raye on July 27, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Nicole, great question for Edgar – and I don’t think he’s around to answer you….the person to go to for help understanding men from a man’s perspective is Evan Marc Katz – he’s totally tough love – which is fantastic…he’s totally telling the truth. His last post was amazing – I’m going to put it on here…just go to and get his free newsletters and ask him your question on his blog. He’s got a great new book, too…totally from the male perspective, not girl (or easy to hear – but so helpful) at all! Love, Rori

  31.  #31Laughing goddess on July 27, 2010 at 1:55 pm


    I feel sad hearing your story and I also feel pissed. If someone called me a whore, skank, etc. that would be a major deal breaker for me. Yuck!

  32.  #32Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    Thank you Rachel…that is very kind of you. I was very pissed after it happened, but now I’m just trying to understand it. I put myself in that situation & I would be mad at someone who did something like that to my friend, but not so mad to the extent of saying such horrible things. His friend was wrong…he cheated with my friend while he had a girlfriend. What is up with that??? Are they mad simply because we found out?

  33.  #33lm on July 27, 2010 at 2:33 pm


    love the hoping experiment!

    i hope that i can CD with guys who are attractive to me…

    it’s like i can only feel attraction for one guy at a time (usually my the recent ex, the guy it didn’t work out with…ugh) and it scares me to date people because i feel nervous that will have to reject them because i’m not into them.

    was CDing like this for other sirens at first???

  34.  #34Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Sorry, I meant thank u laughing goddess! I’m losing it!!!! lol

  35.  #35Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Daria, I like how you said that not looking for closure is one of our most attractive tools! I hadn’t thought about it that way! A very good thing to keep in mind!!!! Just today I had a thought that “it would be nice to be able to talk with TN man about what happened and sorta get some understanding around it (aka closure!!!).

    Thanks for putting it the way you did! Makes sense and is very helpful!

  36.  #36Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    p.s. That means I am NOT going to talk with him about it!

  37.  #37Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Good for you Lucy…wish I had that determination in me. It’s very hard for someone who is O.C.D. to accept no closure. It consumes me. I know in time it will get better & I won’t think about it as much, but it will never completely go away. I’m the kind of person that needs to know why & understand. Not a good thing!!!

  38.  #38Daria on July 27, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    Rachel and Lucy – what I use when a desire for closure consumes me –

    I just imagine that as much as it’s consuming me, that’s how much it’s going to attract and CONSUME HIM!!!! If I don’t reach out for it…

    This tool is a shorthand quickie for me. It feels kinda bad to put it in ME vs. HIM terms. , I feel a lil bit weird still thinking of him feeling uncomfortable and under pressure, and yet it helps me feel more comfortable to choose MY FEELINGS over his TOO. Although I feel guilty… I love my guilt.

    Oh yeah so that really helps me – I feel bad and desperate for him? AWESOME!! that means if I continue to lean back and focus on me, HE;s the one that will be feeling the urge to DO something about the desperation

  39.  #39Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    Thanks, Im!

    Yes, CDing was like that for me, too, at first. It felt very hard and frustrating. It is getting easier, and the issues shift (and so do the types of guys!) as I work through stuff.


  40.  #40Karri on July 27, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Can a strong woman who loves a man enough change the man’s emotional immaturity?

  41.  #41Karri on July 27, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    What if you recognize the emotional immaturity and want to fix them? It’s hard to move on.

  42.  #42Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    That’s cool, Daria. Thanks.

    Rachel, I used to be the QUEEN of “needs to know why & understand” — not just with men but in every area of my life, including spiritually — I have come a long, long way and am in a much better “not knowing” place. It feels good.

    (Sometimes it creeps back in though, as the girls on here can attest….)

  43.  #43janjune on July 27, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    gee, i haven’t checked in for quite awhile —
    rori’s articles just get clearer and clearer.

    it was just about this time last year that i discovered rori.
    went through an awful “purging” but was ready for it.
    then went into overload with the backed up emotional issues and decided to “lean back” and just let it all soak in so have virtually stayed off of the website.

    it’s till soaking… : ) he-hee

    but the comment i wanted to make was to the new goddesses…even if it doesn’t make sense yet or you can’t see it working yet, just give it time because rori is so spot-on with all of this…..

    I met a man a few months ago through a project i have wanted to do for years, but thanks to rori I actually began taking the steps necessary to do it instead of just thinking about it. at this point it’s a volunteer effort but his boss okayed me using the

  44.  #44Evan Marc Katz on July 27, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    Thank you, Rori, for the kind mention. I just want to briefly add to the discussion on closure and reiterate the simple wisdom of what Edgar offered above.

    It’s not that you, as women, are wrong for wanting to know what men are thinking; it’s that there’s often a reason that he withholds from you. He doesn’t think you can handle the truth. The truth isn’t always pretty. The truth is that he’s having second thoughts about the relationship. The truth is that he’s attracted to other women. The truth is that he doesn’t know what it’s like to get this close to someone and he’s kind of scared. These are all very reasonable thoughts that, when articulated aloud, can cause an overreaction – as if he has no right to even THINK these things. This is why he doesn’t share. And as an amazing girlfriend, you’re going to allow him that space. You’re going to trust him and judge him for how he TREATS you, not police him for what he thinks.

    If you do that, he’ll be devoted to you like none other, because NO woman has ever let him fully be himself before.

    Finally, in regards to closure: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, Rori. I say the same thing in “Why He Disappeared”.

    “Forget the Why”

    It literally doesn’t matter why a guy flakes out. If he’s a commitmentphobe or a player or an addict or on the rebound or emotionally unavailable, you DON’T WANT HIM ANYWAY. So let go of wondering WHY some guy didn’t turn out to be the man of your dreams. Focus your energies on attracting the man who DOES want to stick around. That’s where your power lies – the future, not your tortured past.

    If this resonates with you, feel free to learn more at:

    I wouldn’t call it “tough love”. I’d just say that it’s what’s REALLY going through the minds of men – the stuff you SAY you want to know about what he’s thinking.

    Well, here’s your chance! 🙂

    Warmest wishes and much love,


  45.  #45Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    Thank you Evan. My feeling is calm playfulness while I reflect around with what must he be thinking, feeling or doing at any given point. As soon as I begin to obsess, I know it is over because I have gone to a bad place. Because then I am feeling distrust, unloved, uncared for, manipulated and taken advantage of – all my triggers in full armour! Rori’s tools have helped me stay calm and playful….so far. I am new to this approach, I am feeling much calmer and more joy with who I am. I hope this is self-love. I am still not sure I know what love feels like – I am not sure I can recognize it. I am curious to have others here to help explore what self-love feels like.

  46.  #46Rachel on July 27, 2010 at 7:36 pm


    I have missed you… I actually thought about asking if anyone knew what had happened to you. Your words encouraged me so much last year when I was going through my own “purging.” I’m doing so much better this year. This blog was a lifeline for awhile back there and you were part of my healing.

    Hugs and so good to see you!

  47.  #47sumitha on July 27, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    That men will always be back was a surprise!…. But true too mostly I feel !!! …… Does Rori really say that?
    Rachel, all the relationship coaches recommend circular dating…. ie not sticking to one guy until u get a solid commitment from him that u r going to be exclusive… This friend of ur ex BF was not really happy with his girlfriend obviously…. so maybe he was trying to decide if he liked her or ur friend better ….. or maybe hes just a cheater….. Whatever the reason, it never pays to try to mess up his other relationship….. She shud have just withdrawn herself from the whole thing, and let him figure out what he wants to do himself….. if he wants her or the other girl….. And if he comes back, then she can decide if she wants him back ! …… I know its not easy and we will have horrible feelings going thru us, but what she did just will not work.
    I think ur ex BF is highly immature and if someone ever called me names like that he wud be out on his ear that second!….. no coming back either!!

  48.  #48sumitha on July 27, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    Daria you are a true Goddess!! 🙂 ….. Just saw the tip abt when the need for closure consumes us!….. Thanks!

  49.  #49Mermaid on July 27, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    Wow, this is a great post by Edgar. Thanks Rori and Edgar. I look forward to checking out Evan Marc’s blog.

    A new man has entered my CD group. He and I went out a few months ago but didn’t go out again. I feel myself feeling a little like a little girl…he seems to like me so much, I almost feel uncomfortable. Am I uncomfortable because I worry I won’t be physically attracted to him (but I thought he was cute when we met)? Or am I scared because he’s not my usual “type”? I keep thinking of Rori and the judo instructor when she met her husband.

    How do I slow things?? He texts me all day and calls each night…..which is great, except I’ve got to keep up with my other CDs as well??

  50.  #50lm on July 27, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    i just got back from a date! i feel amazing! he was very nice and very into me. he paid for everything, opened doors. lead 100% of the way. i got a little tired and told him so and he took me right home. it’s probably a one-time thing, but i didn’t think about my ex at all and i was able to really be there with him, using level 2 listening, feeling messages, smiling. i can’t wait to go on more dates!

  51.  #51lm on July 27, 2010 at 9:39 pm


    self-love, when i’ve ‘got there’ has to me felt like a really warm calmness and a lack of concern about external things and how others feel. a real inward calmness. and a delight in my own thoughts and feelings, like i can laugh and be amused and moved by my own words and thoughts, the way i would if i was with a good friend whom i really loved.

  52.  #52BigLuv on July 28, 2010 at 1:25 am


    I love Evan Marc Katz’s perspectives. I feel I need both feminine and masculine approaches to really get this relationship stuff!



  53.  #53Kath on July 28, 2010 at 2:46 am

    Thank you Evan, your words were really welcomed. I have to stop displaying my anxieties about him at him and that is what I shall do from now on. However, I am listening to how I’m being treated and that does fall short of what I had hoped for. Rori, I’ll keep trying the feeling messages but sometimes I feel as though they fall on deaf ears.

  54.  #54Daria on July 28, 2010 at 3:33 am

    hmm… i feel intimidated by Evan. I feel triggered like Evan is the kind of guy who is not attracted to me. Like maybe physically. But not mentally/socially. Like, he would think I’m too ghetto. Whoa I feel surprised to hear myself say this (again). How did I start believing this. I am not even ghetto, but sometimes certain touches… and my interests…

    — so this is my trigger —

    whatsup with that?

    i feel unworthy

    is it cuz the “cool” and preppy guys made fun of me in middle school?

    but now im pretty good at attracting cool guys i think

    but not preppy

    i think they would look down on me, and not be really attracted to me. like, yes shes cool, and pretty, but the way she talks, her inflection, it’s just not ringing right. something’s not right about that girl. oh yeah. thats right shes a gangster wannabe. why would anyone want to live like that. thats so immature. shes weird.

    i fele triggered to think of this.

    or… she only dates black guys. thats weird. shes weird.

    i feel weird. i feel nonmoving. i feel alert. i lvoe my pout. i love my alert. i love my nonmoving ness

    dont move or you’ll feel MO?RE humilated

    i love my humiliation

  55.  #55Daria on July 28, 2010 at 3:35 am

    those kind of people'” are always surprised that i’m really smart. oh you’re really smart they say. oh i didn’t know that. oh that’s interesting (“how the hell is SHE smart they say – that makes no sense”).

    wow how did you get so smart. i am so jockin u because you are smart. im shocked that youre smart. to tell u the truth i would never have thought by looking at you that you’re so smart.

    oh wow.

    i feel triggered

  56.  #56Daria on July 28, 2010 at 3:38 am

    oh for real. well i dont like people that are so conformingly and obscurely socialized. that they cant see heartlight thru the haze

    who the fuck does that?

    who doesnt see heartlight thru the haze


    im gonna get moderated for this one for sure

  57.  #57Daria on July 28, 2010 at 3:50 am

    freakin Marine dude tryna say to me “oh I guess you don’t know how bad you guys are” … oh what? so you do cuz you were stationed there for 2 months? and you want to tell me how “bad we are” wtf??

    i feel angry weird closed off, judgemental, hatred, fear, disgust

    how the hell would i not know how we are – and wat the eff is you giving me this “bad” story about – you freaking talkin bad about us while you’re stationed there?

    i feel freakin shocked and kinda betrayed and ad abd dismissiive and numb

    are you SERIo/us??

    what did u really say?? that i must not know how “bad” we are in my own country wher I am born and I am from, and you shmucky shmuck know nothing about excetp for bine stationed there and don’t even speak the language omggg

    i feel so judgemental of ignorant arrogantness just assumed like wow. i did not know that. you . thought. bad. of . me. how dare you. i feel mad and triggered.

  58.  #58Linda on July 28, 2010 at 5:42 am

    I appreciate the heads up and the things to consider. I am finding that men in my age group have had so many different kinds of women in their lives before that their heads, emotions, mode of operendo are askew. “Artful dodgers” is what comes to mind.

    What Marc said is a great reinforcement of what I want in my life. If a man behaves in ways that do not show me value, respect, caring etc…. I DONT WANT HIM. PERIOD! The why, just doesnt matter.

    I love the song that says…. “no no no no… no no no no… no no no no!… You’re not the one for ME! I LOVE MY CHOICES.

    Hugs… Linda

  59.  #59Linmayu on July 28, 2010 at 6:46 am

    Hi Goddesses! (And Gods :D)

    (Really, we all are God having a human experience…)

    Rachel: I feel angry about your experience. I feel angry to see men lie, treat women badly and then blame the women for it. I feel angry that men don’t look into themselves for the cause of their problems, but instead blame us, as Evan said on his blog. I feel angry that this has been going on since the Garden of Eden. I feel angry that I’ve been on the receiving end of so much abuse I didn’t deserve because a man never learned to love himself and decided to take it out on me. I feel angry that my father called me fat when he was fat himself, and called me too dark when he is darker than me. So it’s OK for them to be the size, shape, and color they were created, but not me?

    I feel angry to be the trash receptacle for men’s negative emotions. I am not a trash receptacle, I am a human being too. I feel angry to not be seen.

    I just fell out from a year-long imaginary relationship (that I knew was imaginary going in, and didn’t care since the sex was imaginary too ;D)

    I felt angry to not have been noticed or pursued or claimed by this man, who accepted the attention and energy I gave him, but did not give me what I hoped for. The minute I was finally honest with myself about him, another man from my past popped back into my life and gave me ALL the attention and beautiful words I feel so delighted to receive, and a light bulb went on in my head. This is how it should be.

    Now if I could only find another one like him who isn’t burned out on marriage due to a cheating wife and a bitter divorce…

  60.  #60Renee on July 28, 2010 at 7:13 am

    Linda — It’s so funny that you mentioned that song…I know this will sound weird to some of you, but I believe God speaks to us in many ways, and one of the ways I think he sometimes speaks to me is through songs on the radio (or sometimes songs that even just pop into my head at certain moments).

    A few yrs ago, I was driving halfway to meet a guy from Nashville (I had suggested he come to my city — it’s about 3.5 hours away — but he thought it was more “fair” if we met halfway and I reluctantly agreed…) and that song was playing on the radio and jumped out at me while I was driving. I got that odd feeling I sometimes get when I feel the song contains a message for me, but I tried to ignore it. Suffice it to say this guy jerked me around for months (and obviously, I let him jerk me around) and I had a really hard time getting over him (because he kept contacting me — still does on occasion). Wish I would have gone with my gut and felt that song fully resonate within me…does that sound weird?

    On a related topic, I just got a txt from another guy who lives in Nashville suggesting we meet halfway for a first date. Mindful of what Rori would say, I wrote:

    “I feel excited at the prospect of meeting you. I would feel more comfortable, though, if a guy came to (my city) for our first day…I guess I’m just old-fashioned that way. What do you think?”

    I figured he’d write me off as being selfish in not wanting to meet him halfway, but instead he wrote:

    “No problem. I like old fashioned. What weekends are you free in August?”

    Yay leaning back and setting boundaries!

  61.  #61Rachel on July 28, 2010 at 8:16 am

    I read how most of you are very familiar with Rori’s program. I have only read her posts but have not read her book or watched any of her dvd’s. I have watched Christian Carters’s dvd’s(which is how I found Rori) & have his book but didn’t find much of his stuff very helpful. To learn more as a beginner what do you all suggest I begin with in Rori’s program? Thanks!

  62.  #62tinque on July 28, 2010 at 9:08 am

    Rachel – Her e-book is the best place to start. It will give you all the basics.

  63.  #63Renee on July 28, 2010 at 9:39 am

    I meant to say, “If a guy came to (my city) for our first “date”, not “day”….you all probably knew what I meant.

    Anyway — we’re meeting August 7 in my city. I feel proud that I didn’t cave in just to meet him:-)

  64.  #64Renee on July 28, 2010 at 9:42 am

    Btw — Rachel, I agree with you. I bought several of Christian Carter’s products and didn’t find them helpful at all. It seemed to me that the only thing I took away from it was, “don’t lose your temper, be a ‘cool’ girl and men don’t naturally want to commit”. For several hundred dollars, I felt they were a waste of my money. Rori’s stuff is much better — much more instructional. I’ve got her e-book and her “Commitment Blueprint” and really enjoyed them both, though I found the “Commitment Blueprint” most helpful of all the things I’ve read (or watched) so far.

  65.  #65Brenda on July 28, 2010 at 9:45 am


    I totally love Modern Siren and Commitment Blueprint! I highly recommend both. Modern Siren is more for fine-tuning your self-esteem as a woman. Commitment Blueprint has everything, much, much content, but focuses on the steps of relationship development. Very worth the money! How can you put a price on improving yourself?! Rori rocks!

  66.  #66Brenda on July 28, 2010 at 9:48 am

    I have several of CCs too. The one I did get a lot out of was Inside the Mind of a Man. I think he really has a good understanding of the dynamics, and he helped me a lot. But I feel more help from Rori’s programs because she makes it very practical with HOW to implement these concepts…what to say, visualizing, what to do. I am transforming from being the girl no one would dream of asking to the prom in high school into a confident woman who is on top of her game. I am not there yet, but I am totally feeling the inner shift! It’s exciting! I so appreciate Rori and all you Sirens!

  67.  #67Linda on July 28, 2010 at 9:50 am

    Renee… There are messages allll around us. I was dancing with a guy who was supposed to be with me but was acting alloof and not making eye contact. You know dancing but NOT WITH You on the dance floor. That song was being sang. I had so much fun singing that with her. I turned to his face and sang it to him. What a self absorbed, protective, game player he is.

    It feels good to respect and like me enough now to not worry about why or wonder what is wrong with me anymore. Come to find out I have been focusin on the wrong things all this time. Its about me and how I feel. Not how I can make something work with them. It makes all the difference.


  68.  #68mermaid on July 28, 2010 at 10:50 am

    I’m feeling frustrated today! I like all the attention my return CD guy is giving me, but I want attention from the others too!!

    I emailed with a guy from pof last week and we were supposed to meet tonight but I never heard back from after he was to return from out of town over the weekend. I don’t want to be with someone that isn’t into me, but this feels yucky!!! I’m resisting the urge to pick up the oars and email him.

  69.  #69Rori Raye on July 28, 2010 at 11:52 am

    Karri – Welcome – and did you see the Tony Robbins show? That was one incredible woman. She would not give up loving him, but didn’t know what to do, and ended up dismissing herself and coddling her husband so he just got worse and worse…You can do most anything – but then, why would you want an emotionally immature man? There are so many GREAT men out there! You’re just not seeing them. Also – if he’s emotionally immature – so are you. Just in a different way. Fear meets fear. Love, Rori

  70.  #70Daria on July 28, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Thanks sumitha! Yes I’m pretty sure rori was the one who said men always come back – unless they get in a committed relationship

  71.  #71Brenda on July 28, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    I just had an especially positive interaction with Bill! Very relationship-building!!! And I feel so happy!

    I just had a meeting about our documents with Bill, his friend, Mark, and another scientist who works with us, Robert. Bill came in saying he didn’t feel well and only had two hours of sleep.

    Mark and Bill got in a full blown argument about a temperature in the document. Robert almost immediately walked out of the meeting, curtly saying he has a lot to do. The argument put me face-to-face with my childhood triggers from all the extreme yelling and anger in my home. Bill handled it BEAUTIFULLY, holding his ground without being bullied, while winking and smiling at me! 🙂

    I was laughing the whole time and trying to chill Mark out with humor. I felt pleased to see myself not feel fear or anger in reaction to Mark’s anger. And my estimation of Bill increased dramatically! He responded so sweetly, yet firmly, with Mark’s anger!

    While they argued, I pretended we were in an inservice seminar on conflict resolution. My laptop was connected with the projector already, and so I started a new document and wrote this:

    Everything you wanted to know about relationships but never dared to ask…

    1. Every healthy relationship has disagreements.
    2. There needs to be a final decision maker.
    3. TEAM Acrostic…there’s no “I” in “Team”!
    4. Conflict Resolution happens when each person shares his or her honest feelings and what he or she wants, thereby setting healthy boundaries, and they are discussed, so two people can come to a mutual understanding and agreement.
    5. Humor helps the process of conflict resolution so people don’t take themselves so seriously.
    6. Cooperation and compromise facilitate conflict resolution. Remember relationships are more important than issues.
    7. Guiding Principle when at an impasse:
    LET IT GO! 🙂

    Near the end, when it was winding down, I said with tongue-in-cheek to Mark, under my breath, “You stubborn cuss!”

    Bill started laughing and Mark said, “What? Did I miss something?”

    I said, “No, I didn’t say anything!”, smiling.

    Bill repeated what I said, and Mark got up abruptly to leave. I said, “Mark, I’m just teasing. I didn’t mean it. I said it with tongue-in-cheek!” He ignored me and left the room.

    Bill and I stayed and chatted for 10 minutes or so. Discussing the argument provided a perfect opening for me to comfortably say I was dealing with triggers from childhood. I told him I isolated myself in childhood as an unconscious way of protecting myself by staying away from it. I said so I have a lot of lacks in my social skills, and please excuse me if sometimes I act inappropriately. Sometimes I’m coming from a place of insecurity or nervousness, and I act silly.

    He warmly listened and then said, “Don’t worry, you’re fine. We’re dealing with 20 scientists here, and none of us are perfect.”

    He said last night his hip was hurting so bad with gout that he couldn’t sleep but 2 hours. He said when he was out sick last week, he was in such pain that he couldn’t even get out of bed for food and water, and he lost 10 lbs.

    I told him I probably don’t know you well enough to say this, but if you are ever in a position like that again, feel free to call me. He said softly, “That’s sweet, thank you!”

    I am aware that is considered leaning forward, but I would help someone like that even if it were a woman.

    As we left, he said, “Hmm, must be all that adrenaline from arguing! I came in feeling like a dishrag and now I feel energized!”

    I choose to believe it was because we had some good bonding conversation! 🙂

  72.  #72Brenda on July 28, 2010 at 1:03 pm

    I saw the new Tony Robbins show, “Breakthrough”, and loved it!

  73.  #73Daria on July 28, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    I feel really terrified and unworthy to share this. I feel bad reading the post about Bill, Brenda.

    I feel so scared of saying how I feel. this feels weird. this is a big trigger. I feel the quietness numbing out my body. my lips feel pouty. my stomach feels tight on the sides.

    i feel weird and kinda hot inside, like my blood is slow lava.

    i don’t want to feel unsafe expressing my feelings.

    i don’t want to hold back sharing that i don’t want my sister to drink and that it feels bad to see her drink and that i feel scared. i don’t want to be attacked. I don’t want to be yelled at.

    i feel confused. i feel the haze on my brain.

    i don’t want to not express my fear or jumpiness when my parents are arguing. or when my mom has that bad mood energy

    i don’t want to fear expressing myself

    i don’t want to fear being accused of stuff, or manipulated, or being attacked after expressing my feelings

    i feel afraid

    i love my fear

    i love my hot quiet numbness

    i love my feeling of poutyness and that feels like smile. i lvoe my smile… and that feels like big breath raise up. i love my big breath raise up.

    i feel afraid!

    i don’t want to feel pushed away, rejected, misunderstood, assumed about, made fun of, made negative references to, pigeonholed, labeled, judged

    i feel angry

    i feel bad

    i love my feeling bad

    i love my feeling angry

    i love my fear

  74.  #74Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Brenda, please remember that Daria is just expressing her own triggers and feelings.

    I feel proud of both of you, Brenda and Daria, for being brave.

  75.  #75Kath on July 29, 2010 at 6:08 am

    I don’t feel heard.

  76.  #76Renee on July 29, 2010 at 6:42 am

    Hi Kath,

    I feel bad for you that you don’t feel heard — are you talking about not being heard here on the blog? If so, I get that feeling a lot too. There are some people on here who’ve been on here a while and have already kind of formed friendships and they seem to respond to each others’ posts more than to new people’s posts, but that doesn’t mean that what you have to say is any less valuable than what anyone else has to say.

    I think it would be very helpful for you if you either ordered Rori’s ebook or bought one of her programs though…she’s posted before on the topic of checking a man’s phone and has said that this action is indicative of one being a “junkie” in the relationship and that it’s critical that you take a major step back and try to get yourself back, regardless of whether things continue with this particular man or not.

    Keep reading more of the posts on here and I’m sure you’ll find a lot of value in them. I’ve been in the “junkie” in the relationship before and it’s no fun — I felt a lot of fear and anxiety surrounding the guy I was seeing and where things were going…if I’d been CDing during that time, that probably would have been very helpful, but I didn’t think I had it in me at the time and maybe that’s how you feel now, but I’ve totally bought into the concept of CDing at this point — right now, I’m being asked out by 3 men and plan to go out with all 3 and hopefully I’ll enjoy their company enough to want to continue to see all 3 — if not, I’ll find another one to add to my rotation.

    I hope you find the strength you need to “get yourself back”, lean back and see if this guy’s going to pick up the oars or not…I don’t think you can tell him whom he can hang out with — that goes along with trying to control him, something Rori is adamantly against.

    Good luck!

  77.  #77Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:05 am


    I don’t feel any hostility towards you. If you have constructive criticism, I am open to it. I suppose it was leaning forward too much.

    I guess the main thing I want to feel understood on is that I am IN PROCESS working Rori’s tools, and that means I won’t always do things perfectly.

    For example, when I am in a room with two people arguing, I have serious triggers going off left and right. I have dealt with verbal arguments all my life to an extreme. I have learned to turn my fear into humor. So I laugh when people argue, and it keeps me from feeling intimidated. But I admit, there was nervousness underneath when I was in the room with them, and I was really engaged to manage my feelings, because yelling and criticism are the core of my emotional damage from childhood.

    I can handle constructive criticism, and I even welcome it. I just feel much better when it is delivered with softness.

    I sense you care about the women here, including myself, and so I can handle it. I appreciate you.

  78.  #78Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:12 am

    Hi Kath,

    No one on here intends to ignore anyone. I did read your post yesterday and I felt confused. I read it again twice, and I still feel confused.

    What do you mean, your man texted a woman to end a relationship between the woman and another male friend? I am not clear on who is who and who did what. And I am not sure what advice you are looking for. Are you trying to decide if you should move in with him again? Are you trying to decide if you should date him again? Are you trying to know if he is cheating on you?

    It really is a supportive, caring bunch of women here who are very self-aware, intelligent, and kind, all-in-all! We aren’t perfect, but we’re in process and we try our best! Welcome!

  79.  #79Barb B on July 29, 2010 at 8:08 am

    Thank u..Edgar that was very interesting and helpful…I live with my bf or at least I think he is..and this will help me..:)

  80.  #80dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 8:27 am

    Hello lovely sister sirens

    I am back from my dreaded week long vacation.

    It felt WONDERFUL. I am so glad I went, and I am so glad LI came with me. We are more in love than ever and he is so enamored by me. We talked a lot about what has been causing ill feelings in each of us and it wasn’t anything so major.

    I really feel like this is the man I would like to end up with. I feel like he has my back and best interests in mind. He takes lovely care of me and is willing to be flexible about things. He is infinitely interesting and funny and so handsome in my eyes.

    He keeps laying it down that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me, that he is looking for better work to afford to start a life with me, that I am his soulmate… is this “marriage on the table”? I feel conflicted about true CDing. Perhaps I should just be CDing in spirit and not literally going out with other men. Though, none are asking. So if I were to go at CDing on true dates, I would have to use my boy energy to make that happen.

    Anyway, it was a WONDERFUL AND PERFECT vacation. We were attached at the hip for 8 days and when we got home, we didn’t want to be apart, so I went to his place and napped and he cooked for me and we played video games and then went to dinner. We’re just….so freaking in love. Any time I got triggered or very upset or afraid he comforted me and was present with me.

    I am finishing his sentences and we are reading each other’s minds. I have never had this before in my life.

    so happy.

  81.  #81Lesli Doares on July 29, 2010 at 8:34 am

    In response to fixing an emotionally immature guy-no you can’t no matter how strong you are. A better question is why would you want to? I don’t understand why women find it difficult to identify what they want/need in a relationship and find a partner who matches those requirements. We don’t take jobs that don’t match, hoping we can turn them into something else. Why do we do that with men? Maya Angelou said, “When someone tells you who they are, believe them.” If someone is emotionally immature, or just wants something different from what you want, wish them well and move on.

  82.  #82Kath on July 29, 2010 at 8:39 am


    Thank you- I have Rori’s Reconnect programme, bought it a while ago and do try and use it but it gets very wearing after a while. I am trying my hardest to get me back-but each time I am a little bit more like me, he trys to verbally knock it out of me and I am so bored with all the digs and negativity he comes out with. I’ll keep trying though.


    I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear- the incident I mentioned happened over a year ago. I suspected him of seeing someone else, he claimed he wasn’t. He said the texts were from a woman to his friend and they had used the number to hook up. I was still convinced I was being lied to so I moved out. We are now living together again, have been for three months but there have been so many things that have made me think that this just won’t work. Its not just about the bad memories, its that I don’t think he will allow me to grow and develop. He has just said that I am as common as him-so not true. And even if it is, I want to learn and see so much and I really don’t think he does. I feel trapped.

  83.  #83Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:20 am


    CONGRATULATIONS!!! That is wonderful news! I am so, so happy for you!!!!!!

  84.  #84Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:23 am

    Hi Kath,

    Sorry to hear you are having a hard time with him. He sounds like a toxic man. A toxic relationship is one where both partners agree to not change or grow so the relationship cannot become healthy.

    You are trying to become healthy and to grow, and he is resisting that. He is trying to fill the vacuum your processing baby steps are creating by trying to drag you back into the mucky mud you are trying to pull out of.

    With what little information I have, that is my take on it…is that accurate? I really don’t know.

    But the best thing you can do is to circular date. It will raise your self-esteem, and it will empower you to know you DO have options, and you are a special lady. How do you feel about all that I’ve said?

  85.  #85dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 9:36 am

    Well, apparently I have been featured in a popular magazine as one of the most influential women in marijuana. No one bothered to tell ME about this. buuut now i am going to go to barnes and noble and buy a copy and see what they had to say about me, lol.

  86.  #86Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:59 am


    That’s awesome! Can you tell us which magazine?

  87.  #87faubourg on July 29, 2010 at 10:20 am

    Hello ladies I need your advice please.

    I am very attracted to a man whom is not my boyfriend nor a mate but someone i know and that calls me once in a while to chat about life in general, there is some sort of “friendship” between us, compatibility i would say on an emotional view point). He is the first man i ever talked to on such a deep level.

    Yesterday i called him on the phone to have his opinion on my masculine or feminine energy. (he knows i fancy him i told him three months ago but i do not show it anymore as he said he does not feel the same attraction at all gulp!).

    he said to me that i was not masculine but not feminine either! (what a shock!)

    what he perceived he said is that i am more like a child sometimes, (which is true you know i have this tendency and i do feel like a child mostly with bossy people or with men i fancy).

    i told him that i was very much feeling childish when he was there, not as “silly child, immature” but spontaneous and happy and it was sthg rare and special for me that i could feel both child and happy with someone.

    AND THEN! he started talking about a woman he is seeing (don’t know if they go out together or not) and that she is like me childish sometimes when he is around and very sexual sometimes in her attitude maybe to counterbalance that because she feels ill at ease bla bla bla. i was shocked but did not say it and extremely hurt (but i did not feel the hurt at that moment it was like i was under anaesthesia.

    He himself asked if it was ok for me that he talked about that. i said NO in a very firm voice. really not.

    i was feeling shaky and very solemn. It is the first time i do that, because this is so common thing when i am with a man or attracted to a man that he talks about other women like i am non existent or not “someone”, or like they want to feel my hopelesness, my sorrow or know i much i care for them, i don’t know. my dad also used to do that which was excruciating for me, he could not care less about my school work or my talents, my health but he would talk about his mistresses to me and my sister.

    i felt that it was time that i use my I FEEL speech (i wanted to several times with this guy but i could not do it); i said that it is depreciating, belitling that he does that, i tell him how I feel around him, i talk about how i feel with him when we talk or see each other and say it is something which exhales my most spontaneous me and the happiest part of me and all he does is talk to me about other women once more (he always does that one way or another, one day we went to a park and he said oh i already came here with a girl friend, oh i remember at a concert with my girlfriend, even if he is single he always brings up a woman “between us” which is weird because we are not going out together and i do not seduce or act like “i still wish we were together” on the contrary) i feel like he does that to valorize himself. to give you an example of how awkward it is : it’s like i would say pass me the salt please and he would answer oh one day a woman asked me the salt?!

    HIS REACTION : he apologised and said he would take it into account for next time for his relationships with people and therefore with me. he said you talk to me about you and i start on about ME. and i talk about other women once more, he emphasized on my saying once more. he was ill at ease and was really sorry. he said that he makes mistakes he is trying to improve himself.

    I feel so hurt and belittled since then, i come in touch with what prevents me from starting circular dating which is : you are not enough, you are not a woman you are a child and you are not feminine beautiful and you must not become a woman. (i had very strong messages of that from my parents and brothers during many years). I feel like he killed me, like i received a huge bullet in my torso, i can slightly move or think, i feel my breath is tight very tight and i was killed in a symbolic way (i don’t know if you see what i mean). the bullet is gone but there is this big hole which is now starting to heal since i spoke out. thank god.

    Thank yo so much for reading me. Your advice would be a relief.
    I wish you the best.

  88.  #88Siena on July 29, 2010 at 10:33 am


    My heart goes out to you. I was also in a “situation” with a man who told me that he didn’t feel that way for me and I DIDN’T LISTEN (and really really hurt myself and my self esteem in the process).

    I’ll tell you what I wish someone had told me back then, and this might sound harsh… but it’s not meant to hurt you, just to show you what is true.

    If he tells you that he doesn’t feel that way for you, BELIEVE HIM!

    He is not hurting you, YOU are hurting yourself for putting yourself in this situation again and again. If you NEVER saw him again, you would NEVER get into those hurtful conversations with him ever again… can you see how that is true!?

    Please walk away from this man. There is no “connection” here for him. If there was, he wouldn’t be telling you about other women and bringing other women between you two.

    It’s an ego boost for him to have you call him. Stop that now! Nothing more with this man, please!

    It sounds hurtful to hear now, but time heals all things.

    I feel really harsh telling you this straight out. But I’m doing so because I see myself in you, and I would give anything to be given the years back in my life (and all the heartache) that I wasted on someone just like this guy here.

    Please, for your own self-respect, never talk to this guy again.

    As Rori says, you “hired him” to treat you badly. Time to fire him!

  89.  #89dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Brenda, it’s skunk magazine and it’s available at newsstands and in bookstores like barnes and noble. I still haven’t gone for it yet because being an influential woman in marijuana is keeping me here in the office. lol. i feel proud and good. i hope the magazine says nice things or at least used a decent photo, hehe.

  90.  #90Siena on July 29, 2010 at 11:04 am

    Dorothea, I meant to write this earlier, but got distracted.


    I feel so happy that you had a wonderful time and are in love!


  91.  #91faubourg on July 29, 2010 at 11:49 am

    Thank you Siena,

    It does not hurt at all,

    i never call him actually he does always but i wanted to “use him” as an opportunity to learn more about certain things that i learn with this blog. i am not ready to cd so i start with men i have around. It is a bit cold blooded but after all,

    i also went for a coffee with someone i don’t fancy and it was practise for me also.

    i wanted to use the “feel” speech and i am very glad i did, my sorrow is more due to past memories which revealed through this experience and which i was ready to let go.

    The difficulty for me here is to be myself, which is a woman in front of a man i fancy or like or admire. I needed to know and that’s why i asked him because he is one of them it was hard but it was “live experience”. but you are right the lesson is over now. what feels good is that he was so sorry to hurt me, he apologized, for me it is so brand new and so curing for the next steps. even though i am pissed off at him, so pissed off, which is good sign, because i disagree with him telling me i am not feminine, or even masculine this is so false! when i dance salsa i lead! i really lead hard and i know i am masculine not physically but i am seriously into a masculine energy with men, i do both put them on a pedestal and watch them like i am the leader in this! (it makes me laugh right now)

    i am also very feminine i never call men, i let them chase, i am very curvy, i love that feminine attitude i have,

    regarding his attraction to me, that is the most difficult part, i am sure he is attracted to me, my guts tell me so, and when my guts tell me sthg i always want to prove it, my lesson here is to let go. maybe is he not attracted to me? maybe.

    i will accept it. i am so stubborn on this. it s like i have a mission to make these kind of men admit they love me! it is almost funny sometimes, most of the times they say it to me when i am far gone… too bad.

    i agree that with not being in touch with him i would not be hurt but you know i think that i had something to tell him and now my job is done, otherwise it would have been with someone else. With him i knew i was safe to tell him. i knew he would not go nuts or harsh or vexed or nasty or dangerous, i was sure he could handle this kind of conversation as he is a very sweet man too and willing to learn from his mistakes.

    well anyway i am very proud of telling him I FEEL….


  92.  #92faubourg on July 29, 2010 at 11:50 am

    congratulations dorothea!

  93.  #93Renee on July 29, 2010 at 11:56 am

    Dorothea — I am so happy for you! It sounds like going on this vacation was the best thing you all could have done.

    I don’t know whether his telling you he wants to spend the rest of his life with you is “marriage on the table” or not — I feel interested in knowing what Rori would say here.

  94.  #94dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    me too, Renee. Well, he says he wants to marry me and is getting another job to buy a ring.

  95.  #95dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    i am also curious what Rori has to say about suspicions. Like if you suddenly catch a suspicion that your man has fooled around with another girl but there’s not solid proof. How do you deal with that feeling? I feel scared when I catch these suspicions because my gut feelings are usually quite right. I have excellent intuition. But just cuz I have a gut feeling that something is true doesn’t mean it is, and accusing or asking your guy if he fooled around with another girl might not be very helpful to the relationship or myself or him.

  96.  #96Barb B on July 29, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    I really need some goes..I have been living with bf be a yr next month and together 2 yrs in Oct..he has become distant with me when we are not in bed and in bed is close but not as it used to be..almost 5 wks ago I came home from being out and caught him online having cybersex and all he could say was “oops u caught me be naughty”..and never said anymore about it..9 days later I went to the website where we met and there he was looking for women to have cybersex and to meet in person..I put in a profile changed a couple things and a day or 2 later he sent me an email not knowing it was me and since then we sent a few back and he wants to meet that person (Me) for a dinner engagement for coffee to meet face to face..I have yet to reply…and not sure I will..
    What am I doing wrong? Im 58 and he is 62..he has been single all his life and I have married 2 times and divorced..

    Please I really need help…

  97.  #97dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    when we were fighting before my vacation and when he was breaking up with me, it seemed like i smelled p*ssy on his breath, and it definitely wasn’t mine cuz I hadn’t seen him for a week. But it could have been anything…it could have been skunky pot for all I know… but my gut is saying to ask him about it.

    “when we were fighting, did you fool around with anyone else?”

    lol, i feel like i’m on a rollercoaster. i was just feeling so good, and now i have THIS on my mind.

    i want to call him right now and ask him but maybe i should wait.

    i’m scared he’ll say YES.

    i’m scared i’ll hurt us if i ask.

  98.  #98dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    i’m just going to keep spouting off this energy HERE instead of asking him right now, until someone responds to me

  99.  #99Siena on July 29, 2010 at 2:11 pm


    here’s the thing: until marriage is on the table (which it sounds like it might be as of this past week), it’s not cheating if he was with another woman. It TOTALLY sucks (IF it’s true), but he wasn’t cheating on you.

    If you feel better knowing for health reasons, then I totally get that.

    Even if he said he was only seeing you, and he was dating someone else, then he broke his word, but again… it wasn’t cheating.

    How does it feel looking at it from that perspective?

  100.  #100dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    I might not even want to know the answer….except i get really bothered when i think my intuition is right. it’s like i need to keep the gauge well calibrated so i can know moving forward if i am just out of my mind or if there is merit to it.

    thank you for answering me, siena. i don’t want to hastily call him and have it be a huge mistake right now. i know i would feel awful if someone accused me of something i didn’t do, if i didn’t actually do it.

    i don’t view it as cheating either, so maybe i just don’t want to know. at the same time, if it was with someone we spend time with together, i WOULD like to know. i don’t want to associate with scandalous back stabbing women.

  101.  #101dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    if i do talk to him about it, i will mind the following things:

    I will tell him something suddenly started really making me feel preoccupied, and that i feel really conflicted about bringing it up, because i don’t want to damage our relationship

    i will ask him if it’s a good time to talk first.

    i will not ACCUSE him.

  102.  #102Siena on July 29, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    Dorothea, has he ever been untruthful about other things to you?

    Is there anything in your past where you were with a guy who went with one of your friends?

    These sound like NVs to me, but they ARE important to check out, to make sure it’s not your intuition that is screaming bloody murder.

    What if you waited until you were really calm and said something to him (face to face so you could read his body language) about how important transparency is to you. And that you have a sense that there’s something that he’s withholding from you (if that’s true), and that you’ve been imagining the worst, which you don’t want to do…

    I dunno… I guess I’m saying DO talk to him about it, but when you’re calm just so you can be certain that you’re not trying to sabatoge anything.

  103.  #103Siena on July 29, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    what you said in #101 sounds right on!

  104.  #104dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    yes, my first love fooled around with one of my friends, who later became my roommate, and then i found out after we moved in together. everyone knew but me. i felt devastated that i had been hanging around all these people who knew my man had fooled around with my roommate before i met her and moved in with her. i don’t want to be that fool again.

  105.  #105dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    it could have been purple onions on his breath. sometimes that smells a little bit like p*ssy to me. i have the taste of purple onions on my breath from lunch and it kinda tastes like vj smells now that i think about it.

    i started smoking cigs again so my sense of smell is a little skewed, lol.

    siena, once i typed that to you about my first love cheating with my friend, i felt a lot of my suspicions for my current guy wash right out of me. is it possible that old trauma can get confused with intuition?

  106.  #106Siena on July 29, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    (okay, so armchair therapist here), it sounds like you’re in love again, and the last time this part of your heart was touched, it was broken in the way you describe.

    So you’re basically reliving (in your emotions) the things you felt before and maybe haven’t completely healed.

    Even more reason to tread very carefully, because the truth is, it’s very very very very unlikely that your guy went with someone you know. Unless he’s a TOTAL douchebag, it sounds like he’s the real deal and his feelings for you are real.

    How would it feel to tell him about that experience you had in the past, and let him know that getting close to him has brought up those old fears… so much so that you thought perhaps he was with someone you know (without accusing him of it).

    Even smells can be triggered by memories, so it really could be “all in your mind”…

  107.  #107Siena on July 29, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    “is it possible that old trauma can get confused with intuition?”

    It’s so funny, because I’ve wondered that same thing. The difference is this, I think: with intuition, there’s no fear associated with it… it’s just something you know. You might become afraid after getting the intuition and trying to figure out what to do, but intuition itself is neutral.

    Old traumas bring up fear, emotion, heartache, the “what ifs” etc.

    Intuition often (for me) brings with it a deep sense of calm, like I’ve touched God…

    How does that resonate with you?

  108.  #108dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    siena, your armchair therapy is helping me feel much better. thank you. i am sooo glad i came here and didn’t call him up and start talking to him about this.

    could have been disastrous!

    i think i would feel much better telling him about my feelings and that they are coming up. but i don’t need to call him up right now and talk to him. this sort of thing can wait.

    wow! i feel so proud of myself. the Old Me would be on the phone right now stirring up some D R A M A over this. it feels good and mature to process my feelings and explore them before unleashing them on a man at the first sign of my discomfort.

    i think i wanted to call him and ask him about this as soon as it started to bother me because i didn’t want to actually feel this discomfort and experience.

    wowwie. thank you so much siena for being here right now. you’re really helping me.

  109.  #109dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    “Intuition often (for me) brings with it a deep sense of calm, like I’ve touched God…”

    i can’t go with this for myself…for me calm and frazzledness are so rollercoastery for me that just reading this and thinking “wait a sec…i do feel very calm” is stirring up a lot of paranoia. haha. i might just feel calmer than i might otherwise because i am learning to be calm and manage my anger and fear, which is something i have been working very hard on.

  110.  #110faubourg on July 29, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    dorothea, i think maybe you should stop thinking about it and do something else and get back to it later when you have a little more perspective on the situation, and see what comes up.

    and for now to get it off your chest you could write about it, that helps me a lot or discuss it out loud or draw about it, paint about it (and see what comes up too),

    i too believe in intuition. it never lies for me honestly. i am always proved right even if it is years after!

    but also it might be a reminder of a previous situation that you haven’t sorted out yet. something you need to look into which may have nothing to do with him. it might be onions that made you think of another previous p—y situation.

    hope that helps…


  111.  #111dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    yes it very much helps. you sirens are so good to me.

    my guy and i actually were talking about my first love the other day, because my guy says if i go to Austin for grad school, he would follow me there. and i said my ex lives there, but we have no ill feelings for each other, and we’re also not romantically into each other any more. we’re just platonic friends now and he will help us figure out life in Austin.

    I hadn’t thought about my ex in soooo long.

    i didn’t mention the part about how he cheated on me with my friend. i am scared of a repeat.

  112.  #112Siena on July 29, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    “i think i wanted to call him and ask him about this as soon as it started to bother me because i didn’t want to actually feel this discomfort and experience.”

    I’m totally living that same thing in my life! Leaning back and sinking into the discomfort rather than leaning forward to distract myself from how things feel.

    You’re great Dorothea! You go girl!

  113.  #113tinque on July 29, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    “is it possible that old trauma can get confused with intuition?”

    dorothea – yes absolutely, positively. be careful here. from what I know about you which isn’t much, it seems as though you get a little hot under the collar rather easily. please try not to jump to conclusions that in this case seem totally unfounded.
    you have a sore spot here, but this man has not given you any reason to doubt him. you have to trust unless given reason not to.
    please let this go. I wouldn’t even suggest telling him you had a shaky moment and worked it out.

    I don’t entirely agree though that intuition is felt as calm knowing. I have excellent intuition, and calm has never figured into the deal. I experience a feeling of the bottom dropping out from under, my heart sinking, a rush of heat, fear. not at all Siena’s experience.

  114.  #114dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    tinque, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about this. i feel important and looked after and not all alone in this world because siren island is here.

    tho i feel red faced embarassed hearing that i get hot under the collar easily. blaaaah it’s true though >:/. I am very committed to changing the way i react to uncomfortable situations with the people closest to me.

  115.  #115dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    what if this is a message from the universe? not that he fooled around with someone else but that i really need the opportunity to trust and let things go. that i can calibrate my own intuition. that i don’t need anyone else to tell me if i’m right or wrong or decide this for me.

  116.  #116tinque on July 29, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Yes dorothea, learn to trust and let things go even when your other voice is screaming at you.
    It’s okay to look for reassurance in my opinion. I think we all gain some sort of strength or relief or something, wanting to make sure the gremlins are not gaining the upper hand, and here is a good place to do so.
    As for your embarrassment, love your embarrassment. It’s a beautifully vulnerable thing.

  117.  #117Debbie on July 29, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    Good evening Rori,

    I have been practicing your tools,,, feeling statement, circular dating, etc.
    I truly feel the man I love and who at one time professed his love for me does not believe I am dating others and thinks I am sitting at home waiting for him to contact me… We started our relationship by being friends and our feeling for each other grew to more but we never dated because at that time he had to take care of a terminally ill family member we grew apart. After this family member died he became a very angry bitter person who told me I deserved better than him. We did not see each other for several years. Time has healed his grief. He started dating again and for a couple of years dated someone he cared deeply about according to him… at the time, as I ran into him coincidentally and he we chatted a few minutes. I recently saw him again coincidentally and asked if he was dating, He said yes… I asked if he was exclusively dating anyone he said no. I told him I was still attracked to him and I would like to date him… he said he would have to think about it… After almost a week, I contacted him and asked is he had thought about dating me… He told me he was dating two woman and his life was complicated enough and he did not need to complicate it any more by dating a third woman (me)…. He said we are friends and as friends we can meet for drink, go to dinner, play golf, etc… We met for drinks after work. We had a great time. When we were ready to leave and the waiter brought the bill I asked what I owed him and he said “Nothing” I thanked him. We walked out to our cars… he hugged me good bye and kissed me on the lips… I have not heard from him since. I am confused. I intuition tells me he has strong feeling for me but that he is afraid of his feelings. I really care deeply, yes even love him. I don’t know how to win him back…. Please help.


  118.  #118Renee on July 29, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Just talked to CD#3 and I like him — I now have 3 guys I think are attractive who are all calling me (well, shorty pilot would make 4, but I’m trying not to give him much time). I have a date already with 1 of them, and anticipate having a date soon with the other two — yay CDing!

    Now, if I can just get better at communicating in feeling messages…I don’t think I used but one the whole time we were on the phone, which was about an hour:-(. Is it possible I’m so out of touch with my feelings that I can’t even identify them anymore? I just haven’t been “feeling” anything specific to say — what do you think?

  119.  #119Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    Sirens! ok so I had a date set up for tonight…he planned it.
    About 15 mins ago he texts me begging for a rain check saying that he just closed on a new house and has to be out of his house by sat and needs to pack tonight so he can move tomorrow.

    that all sounds fine…but he could have text or called me earlier??

    I haven’t responded…I don’t know how I want to respond. I feel disappointed and irritated…and I kind of had a feeling and I’m pretty sure he’s emotionally unavailable but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt…now

  120.  #120Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 5:50 pm

    Yeah Renee…that’s awesome!

    I told my pilot guy the feeling message that you helped me with and I never heard back from him….which is for the best..

    I am CDing with this other guy I’ll call him sailor. he races sail boats all over the world and on Monday he cooked me dinner on his sail boat and it was awesome. he is totally stepping up and he is way cuter in person..finally! 😉

    Then I thought I had a date with “house guy” but that fell’s funny because I had a dream about him and he was always behind me so I couldn’t see him and I wanted to look but didn’t want to “lean forward” so I never saw him in my dream….weird!!!…so I’m still working on my rotation…

  121.  #121dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    yay sirens i am feeling much better now. thank goodness for this place. so much better to come here first before i go short circuiting all over my relationship.

  122.  #122Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    So I feel like I need to say “something” in response

    I feel a little turned off and uninterested…

    I feel irritated

    I feel…like I’m either starting to go numb or not care anymore…which is it lol

  123.  #123Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    I feel happy I’m not so tied to the outcome

    I want to be honest, vulnerable and genuine with him

    I want to let him know….???? what do I want to let him know? I’m not sure…this feels weird to me

  124.  #124dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    jilly, how about riffing through your feelings here and seeing what comes out of it? we can help you craft feeling messages to share with him. it is an opportunity to practice with him. free therapy!

  125.  #125Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:12 pm

    thanks Dorothea 🙂

    I agree..I was trying to riff above lol

  126.  #126Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:15 pm


    I feel mad
    I feel irritated
    I feel put off..I know that’s not a real feeling
    I feel myself going numb after that…or not caring..I can’t really decipher yet
    I feel turned off
    I feel uninterested

  127.  #127dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    it was really good! i encourage it

    well you’re feeling irritated. i would feel irritated too. i wonder if this is the kind of thing where you take NO for an answer like rori says, and when he contacts you again, you let him know “gosh it just didn’t feel so good having my plans cancelled at the last minute.” and see what he does and how you feel.

  128.  #128Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    I love my mad feelings
    I love my irritated feelings
    I love my put off feelings
    I love my numb feelings
    I love my turned off feelings
    I love my uninterested feelings

    please bare with me as I learn to riff 😉

  129.  #129Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    Barb b – I am just getting caught up on the thread….your man wants to meet you???? I must confess, as horrifying as this might be in real life, I think this is hysterical. You might try going off to have a read leather bustier made for you – one that zips down the front, and show up in it with black stiletto boots and a set of mink cattails. I have this wild image! has anyone responded?? I feel troubled with this situation.

  130.  #130Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    hey sirens, barb b
    has a real doozer of a problem – we need to help her. I am completely useless on this one. I think Rori needs to take a look at this one.

  131.  #131Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    …this is how I responded

    Well…that’s good news right? (about the house)

    I feel unsure maybe we should wait until after fire season and see where we are both at? (he’s a firefighter too and our schedules can be super crazy…)

    I took no for an answer…responded in an honest way…I actually feel pretty good right now…I feel happy about that response

  132.  #132Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:33 pm

    ok ill go take a look at barbs situation!

  133.  #133dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    i feel confused…why did you tell him not to ask you out anytime soon?

  134.  #134Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    BARB!!!! oh my hell!!! I cant even imagine!!! Rori definitely needs to step in here!!!

  135.  #135Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    there are so many scenarios that go through my mind of what you could do but …that’s not what matters

    how are YOU doing/feeling??? Are you getting out of there?

  136.  #136Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    Jilly, in the end what did you do?

    “I am feeling disappointed that we must re-schedule. I also feel happy that you have the house you wanted.”

  137.  #137Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    Dorothea…thanks for calling me on that

    Because the whole story is…2 months ago he asked me out on a date and he never followed up and then 2 weeks ago he asked about getting together on a monday and tuesday morning I said thurs or friday would feel good to me and i didnt hear from him until the next monday and then we planned for this thurs and at the last minute he cancelled…

    I feel like he isn’t able to do the dance…and he does have a “player like” reputation i am willing to give men the benefit of the doubt but…that is 3 times of not really stepping up…does that make sense? or am I off?

  138.  #138Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:47 pm

    thanks Lizzie…

    I kind of said that
    I said

    well…that’s good news right?

    I feel unsure maybe we should wait until fire season is over and see where we are both at?

    I feel that up until this point I have been open and available..if he responds back I’ll keep myself open

  139.  #139dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    telling him to ask you out later to solve his problem of not following through with plans = rowing, overfunctioning, not to mention selling yourself short

    telling him how that makes you feel and letting him row (or not row) as a response, and then seeing how you feel about it = siren, goddess, not to mention free therapy

  140.  #140Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    Dorothea..the real answer is because I feel mad dammit!!!

  141.  #141Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:51 pm

    You’re right…that’s why I need to be here

  142.  #142Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 6:51 pm

    Hi Jilly,

    I guess I tend to lean forward, but my inclination would be to excitedly respond how happy I am for him, because buying a house is a major life happening! Then I’d be inclined to help him move. And just assume he’s telling the truth. But when he responded yes, then it would confirm that it’s true. And if he responded no thanks, I would assume he was lying.

    If he were telling the truth, I would call something that monumental an excusable reason to postpone a date. Is it possible he didn’t know ahead of time if it would happen?

  143.  #143Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    I thought I did so good with a feeling message..but i guess it wasn’t a feeling message at all..crazy how you can see it when others do it but not yourself….

  144.  #144Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    I am very bad sirens…you may lash me with wet noodles….
    I leaned over and am be totally diva
    I sent family guy a note asking if he had tools because I have no tools and have a project that needs some tools. He has tools – every imaginable tool apparently. (we could laugh about this – he is very good at using his AMAZING tools…). But I am talking sanders and wrenches now. I sent him an “I wonder…” message about how busy he is and he responded with some really enlightening “I feel…” messages. I am now actually thinking he is much more recently separated than the 1-year that he told me when we met. My intuition is telling me it is much shorter – maybe even only 6 months. And this is not the first time I have felt that way – it is the third time. As odd as it may seem, I want to give him a ton of space and would even encourage him to date like we do (seems risky but on the plus side for me, I know he likes me, I like him, I am loving how I see feeling messages work with him, he is 50 and his twin girls are only 10 and one is 100% disabled-dependent, and his ex-will have to be in his life for the rest of his life, and I am open to all that where I have not met anyone else who is – among people I have mentioned this to – they tell me to run for the hills).

    So as much as I leaned in and am heading down the over-function path, he is really stepping up to be a hero on the tools – sending me all manner of messages about what kind of wrenches, what kind of sandpaper, what is the project so he can bring the right assortment of tools, he is taking the afternoon off work to bring the stuff over bla bla bla….it is so cute!

    here is the question – I haven’t seen him since our amazingly passionate evening 6 weeks ago! And only a few messages in between. How on earth do I tell him, I don’t want to be a one-night stand, I don’t want to be a FB, that dating works for me and needs to work for him, but I want to see him with some regularity because I like how wonderful I feel with him (I have told him this once or twice).

  145.  #145dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    haha do NOT offer to help him move.

  146.  #146Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 6:55 pm


    I lean towards what Tinque said, to let it go. He is obviously head over heels for you! You just had a wonderful vacation! He forgave you for getting hot under the collar! Things are going fantastic!

    What I would add to what Tinque said is sometime when you are alone and deep in conversation, casually bring up a comparable scenario you know of, some other couple where the man cheated on the woman. See how he responds. Study his eyes carefully. See if he seems uncomfortable and squirmy. That should really give you a good gut level feeling one way or the other. It’s totally nonconfrontational, and he won’t even know you are checking him out. But it will leave you with peace of mind. Smoking definitely plays with the taste and smell buds!

    Just rejoice in your victory and your new life!

  147.  #147Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    Hey Brenda!!

    See…I feel curious too…how could he have not known until right at 630 that he was closing on a house? but maybe he was debating on what to do? I’m not sure..I guess it doesn’t really matter.

  148.  #148Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    lol… helping him move…

    besides I’m going sailing with a great guy tonight!

  149.  #149Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    The thing I think about when it comes to offering to help a man move, etc, is to think about ten years from now. Will he want a wife who sits in the living room when furniture needs to be cleaned and moved out of the house? Or will he want a wife who pitches in as a team partner and helps him?

    I want to be a helpmate. And I see a distinction between this and overfunctioning to be a servant. I think moving or some such activity could be a real bonding time, and we could see what each other is made of.

    Bring it on! 🙂 How do you all feel about that? This is a question in the back of my mind. I don’t want to be just a queen who gets waited on. I want to be a team with my future husband.

    And here’s where I’m coming from…when I was with feminine-energy Ryan, he seemed to be setting the stage for leaning back and letting me do everything: cooking, rubbing his back, paying, driving…you name it. He used the excuse that because of his mental illness, he wasn’t capable of functioning. But more and more, I realized it was just an excuse to get me to wait on him like a king.

    And you know what? I resented it, and I went from respecting him more than anyone in the world to disrespecting him at every turn.

    Do we want our men to feel this way about us by acting like queens who are only capable of being served, not serving?

  150.  #150Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    plus I’m leaving tomorrow for 2 weeks…up to Wenatchee, I guess there was a big thunderstorm that moved through and started some fires

    house guy knew I was leaving…oh well…I feel bored about it right now..

    Dorothea I learned something from you tonight! Thank you! even though I feel like I’m a leaned back, non rowing, non overfunctioning, modern siren…i still am a beginner 😉

  151.  #151Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:05 pm


    You could ask him next time you see him. How did it go down? I know real estate auctions can be sudden and unpredicable. If it’s his first house purchase, it could have very well had a lot of unknowns.

  152.  #152Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:06 pm

    Jilly – my intuition is to provide space. You are both emergency services am I right? Very demanding work life and scheduling is going to be problematic until you have a rythm going. Buying a house and moving can indeed be an overnight thing. He might have even thought he was going to make it and then got overwhelmed. Men do not multi-task. period. ever.
    Where some might give 3 strikes your out – I would personally give more latitude – maybe because I am a solo single mother. I have had the phone calls – come pick up your kid and had to exit a date. I believe you both live that life just with a different label on it. Don’t be so hard on yourself. Your message in fine. And we are all getting better and better at feeling messages, I find it takes a ton of practice. Now I have an opportunity with family guy and want to take some time to try out a few things. Who knows if the opportunity will present itself, but at least I will have done some advanced prep.

  153.  #153Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    i see what you are saying Bren…I wouldn’t mind helping someone if I already had some kind of relationship (friend or boyfriend)…tonight’s scenario would have felt a little awkward….

    But I hear what you are saying 😉

  154.  #154Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Brenda – help!

    How does this sound:
    I am feeling wonderful from the time we spend together and one of the things I don’t want is for confusion to come into it – I am enjoying dating you and I don’t want to be a FB or a “girlfriend” or a 1-night stand. what do you think?

  155.  #155Jilly on July 29, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    Thanks Lizzie..good luck with “tool man” family guy 😉
    Keep us posted with how it goes…if you’ve already told him..I’m not sure what else you can say?

  156.  #156Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    no haven’t told him…I am practicing!

    A sailing date Jilly? this sounds totally wonderful

  157.  #157Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 7:32 pm

    Thinking out loud here…

    Was dating a guy for a few months. We saw eachother once or twice a week. He contacted me daily. He stepped up and hit it out of the park. He seriously did everything right. Amazed me lol. We became intimate. I became scared. Old triggers came up. I freaked out. Emailed him a long letter basically telling him I liked him more than I thought I would. Basically asking him for reassurance that if I fell in love he would be safe. Freaked him out. Told me he is undecided on what he wants. Still contacting me daily via text now. Its awkward. Don’t know what to do now lol.

    Any thoughts would be welcome…

  158.  #158Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:34 pm


    First, thank you very much for your kind comments about wanting me to come back. I needed to go lick my wounds in a hole for a few days. I am ready to come back now.

    I copied a perfect feeling message for your situation, but it’s on my desktop at work. Let me recall as much as I can:

    I really value our time together, and I feel like I need a bit more contact. I feel unsure how to ask you in a way that won’t leave me feeling taken for granted. What do you think?

  159.  #159Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    Brenda – I feel happy to see you back!!

  160.  #160Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    I feel wonderful from the time we spend together, I don’t want is for confusion to come into it. I enjoy dating you, and I don’t want to be a FB or a “girlfriend” or a 1-night stand. what do you think?

    I tweaked yours a tiny bit. I am afraid it comes across as too negative, even tho I know you don’t mean for it to…Daria?

  161.  #161Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    Brenda that is brilliant!
    And thank you so much for coming back – I did miss you so!
    I will write it down. Sherry could use somethink like this as well. Lets practice a few-

    I feel wonderful when I am with you and feel like a little more contact help me feel more trust. I am wondering how to ask you in such a way that leaves room for dating and won’t leave me feeling taken advantage of – what do you think?

  162.  #162Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    Things feel crazy on my end, and I’m sure they do on your end as well. It always feels good to hear from you. I’m a bit bummed out that I haven’t had much time with you lately, and I feel jealous for time with you….Lizzie

  163.  #163Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:43 pm

    I feel wonderful when I am with you and what I don’t want is for confusion to come into it – feeling like a FB or a 1-night stand – that would feel yucky – what I would like is dating, what do you think?

  164.  #164Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    Things feel crazy on my end, and you are sure describing crazy on your end too. I do feel wonderful when I am with you and what I don’t want is for confusion to come into it, like feeling like a FB or 1-night stand – that would feel awful – what I would like is dating, what do you think?

  165.  #165Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:47 pm


    Thank you! How about this, which I copied from Rori:

    Thank you for asking…things feel crazy (or however they’re feeling) – and it feels good to hear from you. I’m a bit burned out on email, it feels good to hear your lovely man voice…Sherry

    Lucy wrote these:

    My desire is to spend less time at the computer and more time having fun, real-life, hands-on adventures.

    I feel really tired and sad. I don’t want a text only relationship. What do you think?

  166.  #166Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:50 pm


    Rori says don’t be directive. I like your most recent one overall, but I tweaked it a little:

    Things feel crazy on my end, and you are sure describing crazy on your end too. I do feel wonderful when I am with you and what I don’t want is for confusion to come into it, like feeling like a FB or 1-night stand – that would feel awful! It would feel so good to officially date a man, what do you think?

  167.  #167Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    Thanks Brenda – I feel in flow…

    Sherry –
    to your man: “Oops! I am feeling a bit vulnerable and caught a bit by surprise with some emotions, what I would like to feel is a little more trust and grounded. I am wondering what we can do so that we can put the jitters behind us?”

  168.  #168Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:53 pm


    Has he contacted you since telling you he can’t fit you into the tiny windows he has for friends and family? Is this feeling message for responding to him and not reaching out (I hope)?

    Now Delilah is playing Right Here Waiting, which plays on my deepest heart strings. Oh, I love this song! It has been the story of my life.

  169.  #169Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    How do you go back to dating when you’ve had sex? When you still want to have sex lol. I continue to CD but we have an exclusive sexual agreement. He hasn’t been dating anyone else.

    I used a feeling message like this – I really like you. Probably too much to be JUST friends. This is why I’m not sure we should continue this situation unless you feel the same way. What do you think?

    I’m not good with feelings messages though so maybe someone could tweak it for Lizzie?

  170.  #170Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:56 pm


    I can see I’m not scratching your itch. I think I am shying away from your situation because of being the Queen of Overfunctioning. I think you really overfunctioned by writing him a long letter. Oh my, the number of times I have done that! And had the same freaked out reaction!

    I think you would be better off seeking feeling messages from some of the more experienced Sirens, like Siena, Shannon, Daria, Rori, Sweetpea, or Lucy.

  171.  #171Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    Oh this is really good Brenda – I am writing this one down

    what do I say when he asks, what does officially date mean?

    I am thinking – we see each other and we see other people as well.

    But I want some regularity to it and I wnat to know about how to handle sex – exclusive? – I actually get messed up with multiples – I don’t feel building anything with multiples. I would like to build something with him. But definately not ready to take on responsibility for a “relationship” whatever that is.

  172.  #172Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 7:59 pm


    Here is a classic Brenda feeling message:

    I am in love with you! Soul Mates work things out TOGETHER!! Please don’t withdraw! I want to f*ck you silly! I want to make mad, passionate love all night! What do you think?

    See? You’re asking the wrong person! LOL! Just kidding!

  173.  #173Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    NO Brenda – I leaned over … I need to borrow tools – he has tools. Interestingly I was perfectly prepared to wait a month to get tools, but he offered to bring them around tomorrow and take the afternoon off work. So yes I had a “motive” – my bad, bad, bad.

    However, I really have wanted to deal with this awesome sex and disapearance nonsense.

  174.  #174Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    Brenda I KNOW I overfunctioned lol. Now, I guess, I am just looking for a way to take it back!! Not gonna happen.

    I am encourage that he still continues to tell me good morning every day, still asks about my day, still tells me good bye when he goes to work at night. It’s just he saw my vunerability – and cancelled our date for the next night because “the last thing he wants is for me to get hurt.” Ha! I do that well enough on my own! So now we are in this back off let’s be friends bullshit place that neither of us want to be in. I don’t know how to get out of it!

  175.  #175Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:04 pm


    Him: What do you mean by “officially dating”?

    Lizzie: Well, I feel good about keeping my options open, because I don’t really want a boyfriend. I guess I mean it would feel good to see you regularly. I would love to get to know you at a deeper level, beyond what you would usually say. What do you think?

  176.  #176dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    Brenda, I feel you on what you say about thinking about 10 years from now and what kind of wife you would be.

    but i don’t want to be a pretend wife. i don’t want to wait by the phone to see if our 10 pm plans will work out because he said he might be working late or with his friends. i don’t want to be available at beck and call and i certainly don’t want to offer myself as such (like, “wow it’s totally ok that you havent actually taken me out and keep cancelling, so how about i help you move!”)

    these are flexibilities and privileges a husband gets.

    anyway i’ve used this line a few times. “i feel conflicted because i feel so good with you that your happiness feels important to me…but i don’t want to be a pretend wife. it feels good to just be courted right now, so that I know I end up being a loyal and giving wife to a good man”

    it’s almost like talking about virginity till marriage, lol, saving it for the right man. i don’t want to be a pretend wife to every man who comes around to pay a little attention to me. that cheapens my future husband. he will be the only one that gets this wifely stuff from me.

  177.  #177Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    LMAO Brenda! That is exactly what I want to say!!! Well, the f#@k you silly part lol. I don’t know that I am ready for a relationship with him – ready to shut down my other options as Rori says. But, I do know that I want to take the next step with him, whatever that is? This is actually the first CD guy that I feel it has the potential to go somewhere. Not that it is there or that I am even there. Just potential.. so I freaked. That is classic Sherry!!

  178.  #178Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:08 pm


    How about something like this? Damage control?

    I feel icky and insecure about that letter I wrote you, and I would feel so much better if we could just get back to the feel-good place we were at up until my letter. What do you think?

    I feel embarrassed to heaven and back after writing that long letter prematurely. I guess my feelings got carried away, and I want you to know I will be all right, and I can manage my feelings. It would make all my insecurities go away if we could just start over new. What do you think? Hi, I’m Sherry!

  179.  #179Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    Brenda OMG I am so laughing…..OMG

    And if you think you are bad at this – look what I said to Barb b with her little predicament – go get a red leather bustier, black stiletto boots and mink rattails and show up for the date! OMG I would just so love to be a fly on the wall. Except it would probably give the poor man a heart attack.

    Did you catch what happened? Barb caught her man doing on-line sex with a “kitten” so she created her own sexy profile, he took the bait and now he wants to meet her! OMG!!! What a pickle. Or his pickle is dancing….

  180.  #180Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:14 pm


    THANK YOU! I feel like I understand better than ever about courting and not being a pretend wife.

    Would you say the same about my situation with Bill? He got a serious gout attack and told me yesterday that he lost 10 lbs during the 6 days he was out sick because he was in too much pain to get to the kitchen for food and water? I told him, “I may not know you well enough to say this, but if you are ever in that situation again, feel free to call me.”

    He said softly, “Thank you, that’s sweet!”

    How do you feel about that?

    Your feeling message is awesome and I copied it!

  181.  #181Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    Damage control….Maxwell Smart to the rescue

    “I feel embarrassed to heaven and so yucky about the letter I sent to you – I really feel joy when I spend time with you and what I would really like is to get our relationship back to that wonderful place. I wonder what to do? what do you think?

  182.  #182Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    Lizzie and Barb-B,

    I meant to comment on that! I thought that suggestion was a howl! And I honestly think it’s the smartest way she could handle it! No joke!

    It would be much the same as the scene in the song, “If you like pina coladas, and getting caught in the rain…” It could have the effect of refueling their romance, for real!

    Or like the movie, “True Lies”, the wife was bored and wanted adventure. The husband created adventure around her, and he fell in love with her all over again seeing her perform a dance in her sexy outfit!

    But at worst, I think it could be a loving confrontation, like an intervention. She could meet him and say, “I feel betrayed. I feel sick at heart. I don’t want to be with a man who cheats on me. What do you think?”

    Depending on how he reacted, she could walk out, and I do mean walk out leave the relationship.

    But I think yours is the perfect idea, no matter how it is played out!

    How do you all feel about it?

  183.  #183Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    Brenda – I have a wonderful positive feeling around that message to Bill. I feel the tenderness of caring and that is really important when people are not well. He will feel that and appreciate it. Now be sure and don’t do anything unless he asks.

  184.  #184Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    Brenda #177

    I think those are great except I don’t think a person can really go back, do you? I mean I can’t un say what I’ve said. It will still be there. I’m trying to feel my way past it, but I am stuck. I feel if we can get over this hurdle it will help with our communications in the future. He hasn’t shut down or disappeared yet. But he has backed into the next state! We have a concert we are going to in 2 weeks. He still wants to go. I am hoping I have this worked out – in me – so I can go and just be in the moment with him again. Make sense?

  185.  #185Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    Lizzie and Barb-B,

    Or she could lead him on and lead him on, making him drool and his pickle dance via email or IM, and THEN meet him…and THEN walk out of the relationship.

    Depending on how he handles it, she could seek healing during the separation. I don’t know the details of the relationship.

    Go Barb-B Doll!!!

  186.  #186dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    brenda, what you said was actually very sweet. it puts you in the “friends” category when you offer help like that instead of just saying “ohh that sounds like it’s awful” and the like, but the reason i am not feeling bad about what you said to him is because it doesn’t seem like you’re overfunctioning or trying to get something out of him by offering or ignoring your feelings. you actually mean “feel free to call me”.

    i just don’t think it will build attraction. i honestly believe after my short life’s experience in dating that men wish to court you and pursue you and win you and feel attracted to you, THEN you can show off your lovely nurturing side. showing off your lovely nurturing side to that man directly will not necessarily build any attraction whatsoever.

    on the other hand, if you are full of nurturing boy energy in this way, volunteer somewhere or take on a positive project to help others. having this fullness and wonderfulness in your own life increases your feminine vibe which increases attraction.

    do i make any sense?

  187.  #187Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    Lizzie I really like that #180. The thing is what I wrote in the email is true. Its all real. But, it was too soon. I honestly just feel like walking away and not dealing with it at all. But, that is what I have done… I am trying to stay this time and be authentic. I just don’t know how lol.

  188.  #188dorothea on July 29, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    when in doubt lean back i say.

    all the times i tried to do damage control or figure out where a man was at, it pushed him away big time. better to let him miss you a bit. you have a date in 2 weeks so if you want to go, please do, and you can talk face to face and let him know how you’ve been feeling. say one or two feeling messages at a time and ask him what he thinks. give him time to respond until your speech is complete. please do something nice for yourself and hug your feelings about sending the letter. we’ve all done something like this, haha.

  189.  #189Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:30 pm


    Thanks for your reassurance about my offer to Bill. I felt really connected with him at that moment. And, yes, I reasoned that I didn’t call him while he was out, beggin to help him, and nor did I drool, “Can I cum over and clean your house after I give you a long, deep massage…in my p*ssy???” LOL!

    I am in a silly mood today, which is nothing new for me!


    I will just say this. I am most certainly a learner, and I made social faux pas last year that would make a bull cringe inside a china cabinet, with Ryan. Over and over and over I over functioned, over spoke, over something. I did everything but bend over! 🙂

    Sometimes on a nightly basis, I would say to Ryan, “Can we please get a fresh start…again?”

    He would smile and say, “Yes, no problem!”

    I feel tears in my eyes and my heart lurching with love for this man when I think of how utterly tolerant he was with my social slowness. I would feel embarrassed to actually break down all the errors I made with him.

    He tolerated it because, even tho he was raised in an upper class family with impeccable manners, his mental illness made him lose control at times, laughing inappropriately in public, acting spaced out, gesturing and making weird eye movements.

    He KNEW first hand how it felt to mess up socially, and he forgave me again and again. Over and over, we agreed to start over. Hi, I’m Brenda!

    Sometimes when it’s a really serious flub-up, I think an effort at damage control is worth it.

    I am also the Queen of Learning by Error and Error, which automatically qualifies me to be the Queen of Damage Control!

    I am coming out of decades of having the self-esteem of a slug. That’s the toll excessive yelling and criticism has on a child.

    So here I am, in process. I love my social retardation. I love my embarrassment. I love my silliness. I love my errors on top of errors.

    To err is human, but when the eraser wears out ahead of the pencil, you’re overdoing it! 🙂

  190.  #190Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    oh oh, I am in big trouble….
    I offered family guy a lovely massage tomorrow…He told me once it was his all time weekness 🙂 We did have 4-dates, jeeeze….I am so bad.
    I didn’t offer it to get him here! The tools are bringing him here.
    But I did offer…and he is slobbering like a kid with candy….
    OK then, I am just going to melt the guy and not be attached to the outcome…I really only want to date him and get to know him more.

  191.  #191Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:34 pm


    In general, of course Dorothea is right. But I like the feeling message in 180 too, and you see, “180” is a sign! You want your relationship to do a “180”! The way I see it, he is texting every day, so that is a perfect opportunity to use a damage control feeling message!

    The Queen of Damage Control

  192.  #192Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    dorthea – thanks for reminding me of that. Like I said, I still talk to him via text all day long. I haven’t brought it up since last weekend when it all went down. We had both just been going with the flow of things and .. that’s it lol! I feel like I’ve stopped the flow!! It doesn’t feel natural to me anymore… like we both stop and think what to say instead of feel!! Can you say breakthrough? Lol So, now, a feeling message to start the flow back up?

  193.  #193Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    He knows I did massage therapy training and work on my athlete daughter so I know I am going to melt the guy….
    oh evil scorpio at play….
    I love you Brenda.

  194.  #194Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    Lizzie: Family Guy, I feel so happy that you are cuming to bring your tools over! It would feel so good to put our tools together and fix my CCD disease together! What do you think?

    Family Guy: Lizzie, um, what is CCD disease?

    Lizzie: Oh, that’s my Cock Craving Disease! I would just love to give you a long, deep massage with MY tool! What do you think?

  195.  #195Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 8:42 pm


    Yes, I think even Rori would say let it out. She says to even express our icky, weird, insecure feelings. I think one she said on one of her programs was something like this:

    I feel so insecure right now, and it would make all of my insecurities go away if I felt reassured that everything will be okay. What do you think?

    Something like that, anyway.

  196.  #196Lizzie on July 29, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    OMG You are so funny! a bit silly now but it is really late here and I am signing off for now – laughing all the way to bed – looking at ways to address the CCD!! toys baby toys… tools hunny tools….we could create lyrics!!

  197.  #197Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    Brenda, Lizzie, Dorthea – thank you all so much for helping work through this. I know it seems small, but this really is a huge step for me. One of the first times I have actually been able to put in to words what I felt was happening! Can one of you maybe suggest a feeling message about getting the flow back? Somewhere for me to start and then maybe I can tweak it? I am so bad at them!

  198.  #198Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    I feel the email I wrote has stopped the natural flow of things for us and I’d really like to get that back. What do you think?

  199.  #199Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:04 pm


    I have been giving you suggestions. I like #180.

  200.  #200Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    Nite-nite, Lizzie! This was fun!

  201.  #201Sherry on July 29, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    Thanks Brenda 🙂

  202.  #202Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:09 pm


    Best way is in the moment with your authentic feelings. Say he texts you tomorrow morning, “Sherry, GM! How are you?”

    Check in with yourself and write your real, true, deep feelings in that moment. And what do you think, if appropriate.

    I hope and pray it will heal itself!

  203.  #203Kath on July 30, 2010 at 1:29 am


    Its a long thread ago, but thank you for replying to me and yes, you are right. Except that I don’t feel that he’s cheating on me now- I really feel that he can’t accept we are two different people, wanting completely different things. Let me give you an example, I cook every night, he comes home from work, has a brief chat about his day, rarely asks about mine and then sits infront of the TV until food is ready. He then sits in front of TV all night with remote in hand. I like to eat at the table, he prefers to sit in front of the TV. He leaves his stuff everywhere, never cleans up and I end up doing everything. Just last night he told me that my problem was I have too high opinion of myself and that really I am as “common” as him- I don’t know what he means by that!- he couldn’t explain except to say that I am as working class as he is- I really don’t think in those terms and this is the same thing he said to me over a year ago!- I can’t go round in these circles again. I am trying so hard to grow and move on and yes, he is holding me back. I need a speech!!-Help!!

  204.  #204Renee on July 30, 2010 at 7:42 am

    Jilly — Sorry I’m late to the party, but I agree with Dorothea about your leaning forward to solve his problem of not following up with you appropriately. I don’t know whether he’s a player or not, but he obviously isn’t treating you the way you deserve to be treated (mentions a date, doesn’t follow through, is late to cancel when he does make a date) whatever he is — you deserve better! He has known when his closing date was for at least a week and he chose the last minute to tell you he needed to move? That’s b.s., in my opinion.

    Hindsight’s always 20-20, but I might have written:

    I feel weird bringing this up, but I’m feeling confused and a bit irritated by being cancelled on at the last minute. What do you think?

    That might be too direct, I suppose, but it’s almost like you’re giving him a “pass” by assuming his bad behavior is due to his busy schedule…if a guy’s really into you, he’ll FIND a way to fit you into his schedule, you know?

  205.  #205Renee on July 30, 2010 at 7:46 am

    Kath — I feel this guy is verbally abusing you by telling you that you have “too high of an opinion of yourself” and that you are “common”…he seems to be insecure about his station in life and wants you to be insecure about yours as well.

    I know I’m not the one who has feelings involved here, but I would get away from this man! These constant put-downs are bound to have an effect on your self-esteem sooner or later, which is what an abuser wants — to make you so insecure that you don’t have the courage to leave them.

    Just my thoughts…

  206.  #206Brenda on July 30, 2010 at 8:20 am


    I totally agree with Renee! You would be fully justified to leave, but I know that can involve your whole life. If you are not ready to leave (yet), you could try saying something like this:

    Kath: I feel horrible. I feel ignored. I don’t want to be one of those women who spends all her time and energy being a mommy to a man who won’t take care of himself. What do you think?

    Boy-Man: What do you mean?

    Kath: I feel like a busy mommy every night taking care of a little boy who comes home to play. I don’t like cooking for you and cleaning up after you. What do you think?

    Boy-Man: You know what? Your problem is you have too high opinion of yourself! You really are as “common” as me. Why don’t you get off your high horse?

    Kath: I don’t know what you mean by that!

    Boy-Man: You are as working class as I am. I’m tired when I come home from work. I just wanna relax.

    Kath: This is the same thing you said to me over a year ago!- I can’t go round in these circles again. I am trying so hard to grow and move on and yes, I feel dragged down by your chosen lifestyle. I don’t want to be held back from being my best self! What do you think?

    Kath, try to focus on his reaction and words, even tho you might feel squirmy trying new skills. Depending on how he reacts, you may want to walk out for a few hours, a few days, or forever. If he gets verbally abusive with anger, swearing, and insulting you, definitely walk out at least for a few hours.

    On your way out, you could either say nothing (he’ll get the message!) or just a line or two, “I feel horrible! I don’t like being treated like this at all!”

    These are just some ideas. You can try experimenting with writing what feels like YOUR style. I used some of your own words to create this, as you noticed, I’m sure.


  207.  #207Renee on July 30, 2010 at 9:45 am


    Your response to Kath made me laugh (calling him boy-man, lol), but I bet it’s an accurate portrayal of how that conversation would go.

  208.  #208Kath on July 30, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Hi Brenda and Renee,

    Thank you!- It feels so good to know that I am not the one going crazy!- I have tried doing a similar speech with him and the abuse that came back was really ucky!- I have told him that I can’t cope with him anymore and that we both need to be happy and that meant different things to each of us- his response was that I was trying to make him something he wasn’t!- I said that I was sorry he felt that and I wanted him to happy in his skin just as I needed to be happy in mine- This is the start of the end and its going to be hell!-as long as I know I’ve got you here to help me through this the best way possible, I’ll be fine XX

  209.  #209Renee on July 30, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Kath — I feel relieved to hear you say that you know the end is coming. There are just some men who are toxic and no matter what you do, they’re never going to be the people you need them to be.

    I know it will take courage to finally break things off, but you can do it! You owe it to yourself to find a man who supports your ambition to better yourself and is proud of it — that’s a wonderful goal to have in your life!

  210.  #210Brenda on July 30, 2010 at 10:29 am


    The beauty of feeling messages and I want I need I don’t want I don’t need statements is that your AREN’T blaming and controlling. You are firmly but softly setting your feminine boundaries. He is not respecting those boundaries.

    The best way to get him to see the light is to let him feel the heat. If it got ugly, then I can say to you pretty conclusively that the healthiest thing is to move out. How do you feel about that?

  211.  #211dorothea on July 30, 2010 at 10:38 am

    where are tallgirl and alicia?

  212.  #212Nikita on July 30, 2010 at 10:42 am


    Why are you cooking every night ? Are you married? Do you work and do everything around the house? I read a few posts of yours so maybe I’m missing something. Is it possible to just stop working so hard to be perfect? Sounds to me like “eating at the table is too proper for him”. I’d let his butt eat in the bathroom if he wanted but I’d also eat at the table before he came home. …. And then go out to have fun with friends while he zones out in front of the tv for a few weeks until he notices my high opinion of myself took me to spend the night in more responsive and pleasant company 🙂

  213.  #213Kath on July 30, 2010 at 10:44 am

    Thanks Brenda and Renee, your strength and siren wise words are what I need to confirm the feelings that this “relationship” is dead in the water. He even said not long ago that he knew he couldn’t meet my needs. I asked him whether he was happy knowing that, his response was “I dunno”. I am just hitting my head against a brick wall, but the time will come when he will be packing again- it is my house and my home and I am not going to be the one to move! XX

  214.  #214Kath on July 30, 2010 at 10:49 am

    Hi Nikita,
    I had to smile when I read your post- way to go girl!- that is what I feel inside, its just that he has made it so awful and I have got so tired of all the hurtful words that I have lashed out a few times in sheer frustration- but I am regaining my self control again and leaving him to his own devices. I have to stay calm and just withstand the verbal until he can see there really is no future in it- Can you believe that after I have to withstand a torrade of abuse from him he actually tries to have sex with me!!??!!- He really does not see the consequence or effects of his words and behaviour- Hey ho, time to be strong and calm and stand up for me and what I want. XX

  215.  #215Brenda on July 30, 2010 at 10:51 am


    Tallgirl left the blog, saying it was too negative.

  216.  #216Kath on July 30, 2010 at 10:52 am


    Sorry, I didn’t answer your question- no, we’re not married-but we live together-we’ve known each other for two years but have had a rollercoaster past which I should have learnt from before- trouble is I’m too nice and I believed him when he said he’d changed-or maybe I was just hoping.

  217.  #217Brenda on July 30, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Nikita! LOL! I like your comments about letting him eat in the bathroom and then go out when he gets home! Love it!

  218.  #218Brenda on July 30, 2010 at 10:55 am

    Kath, NO, you DON’T have to withstand his verbal abuse! I hope when he starts mouthing off you walk out the door! And I hope you ask him to leave asap.

  219.  #219Kath on July 30, 2010 at 11:01 am


    I asked him to leave tonight- but we have been here before and he will drag it out for as long as he can. He’s supposed to pay me rent today but I’m not accepting it- he can use it to find somewhere else. Believe me I’m not withstanding the abuse, if anything I’m trying to stop myself from lashing out because I feel soo hurt. XX

  220.  #220Siena on July 30, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Hi Kath,

    I’m going to be the unpopular voice here and offer a different perspective. I don’t know your whole story, but reading what you wrote, I see something different than others here. (and I write in lists, so bear with me!)

    1) You wrote, “I feel trapped.” and yet you live with and cook dinner for a man who is not your husband. You are free to leave or to break up with him (or to just start dating others). You are only as trapped as you believe yourself to be.

    How would it feel to stop cooking for him cold turkey? Don’t even be there when he gets home – be out doing something to make you feel untrapped and make you feel powerful?

    2) You said, “But he has recently started going out on a saturday night with the same male friend- and can’t understand why I am really upset and angry about it!!!!”

    Because he has no obligation to you, and considers himself single.

    How would it feel to go out with your girlfriends or another guy on Saturday and ignore what he does on Saturday nights?

    3) “I am listening to how I’m being treated and that does fall short of what I had hoped for.”

    Then it’s time to start dating other men! This is not about him. He is who he is. This is something for YOU to change.

    4) You wrote, “I am trying so hard to grow and move on and yes, he is holding me back.”

    No, you are the only one who is holding you back. Here are some options for you:

    – Tell him to move out.
    – Start dating other men.
    – Start going out with your girlfriends.
    – Get a new or different job and/or start volunteering at a place you love doing something you love.
    – Join a club.
    – Travel.
    – Take a cooking class.
    – etc etc etc… there are literally hundreds of ways that you can unstick yourself.

    5) “Can you believe that after I have to withstand a torrade of abuse from him he actually tries to have sex with me!!??”

    Yes, I can believe it because men are wired differently than we are. Sex can be a way for them to connect with their partner, release built up energy, and have fun. He’s living there with you, I’d be surprised (and concerned) if he didn’t try to have sex with you.

    6) Finally, I hear lots of great feeling messages for him and speeches, etc. But the truth is, those don’t work if it’s you trying to get the relationship to move in a certain direction (ie rowing the boat) or to try to change him. They only work to help YOURSELF establish your OWN boundaries and communicate them to him.

    Men respond to distance and voids, not words.

    So there’s no speech that will miraculously change how you’re feeling. Only YOU can change how you’re feeling. You have COMPLETE control over that…

    In your posts, I see you throwing away your power at every turn and making it all about him. None of it’s about him. It’s ALL about you… that’s the Siren way.

    Love, Siena

  221.  #221Kath on July 30, 2010 at 11:29 am

    Hi Siena,

    You are absolutely right- I have given him all the power and persistenly ignored my own feelings because of what he would say or do. It doesn’t matter about him, you’re right- I need to focus on me and I am doing that from now, tonight, forever. I promised myself that I wouldn’t allow myself to be treated this way again-and I am- guess I really am a soft touch. Must project that inward strength I have outward X

  222.  #222lm on July 30, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    “Men respond to distance and voids.”

    so true.

    but it sounds like kath just doesn’t feel like being around him anymore. that’s where i got with my guy who was verbally uncool…i would walk out and leave and i’d feel better. that’s when i knew it was the right thing…

  223.  #223Brenda on July 30, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    Women respond to closeness and intimacy!

    Or at least this one does! 🙂

    I am SO ready for a kind, open man!

  224.  #224Renee on July 30, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    Smack my fingers! I leaned forward just now and txted CD#2 asking him when he was leaving for his trip this weekend. I didn’t hear from him yesterday and I got anxious I guess…

    I was feeling anxious, but now I’m feeling regretful and anxious, cause he hasn’t answered my txt yet! Sometimes it’s so hard to break old habits!

  225.  #225dorothea on July 30, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    it’s ok, renee. baby steps. experimenting with leaning forward and then concluding that it doesn’t feel good is fine to do, assuming you don’t do it over and over and call it an “experiment”. love your feelings:)

  226.  #226Nikita on July 30, 2010 at 9:33 pm


    I would accept his rent. Stop cooking. Go out
    even if it’s just to try on pretty clothes or have tea..etc.
    And when he comes on to me for sex; I’d reply honestly-“I feel turned off”. If he needs to sleep on the couch then that’s ok, but I’m not going to add to his drama by throwing hi
    out- he can have 30-60 days notice but for now I’d just focus on me and stop making an effort to control the situation.
    I’d start by dating…after I give the “no gf speech” 🙂
    I’d practice with this one-until I’m so sireny I can walk out in a sequined dress for an exciting reason while he eats popcorn for dinner in front of the t.v…..and not blink twice or feel bitter; just thrilled he paid rent on time and hasn’t used the last of the coffee.

  227.  #227Kath on July 31, 2010 at 12:45 am

    Uhm, I know he won’t think I’m serious, but I think maybe I need to do this with my own baby steps. I will stop doing everything, and we’ll see what reaction that gets. Like I don;t know that one already, but I have so had enough of feeling like crap. I want a better life and I want a happy life and I aint going to get it with him. I went out last night (I’m in the UK-hence the time lapse!) and asked the friends I was with whether they thought I was as common as him-they laughed!-

  228.  #228Nikita on July 31, 2010 at 5:37 am

    Hi Kath,

    You sound better 🙂 Baby steps do make things feel easier. Less pressure, more forgiving of ourselves. Remember the book the four agreements? Being impeccable with our word is one of them…..if I’m angry it’s usually because I’m feeling sad-not all of the time but enough that I tend to mine out my true feelings and motivations….I start with; ” in a perfect world…..” and I go from there. That might look like….me not having to cook every night to receive the love I desire (just an example)…in a perfect world we’d make reservations so I can focus on feeling sireny in black sequins 🙂

    Or even; I still want a man that isn’t wanting me back enough…….I feel silly wanting that less than stellar man….I love my silly wanting less than stellar men feelings….

    In a perfect world I have a beautiful relationship that I sink into and feel nurtured, cherished,and safe with……however that looks for me

  229.  #229Kath on July 31, 2010 at 5:50 am

    Hi Nikita,

    Yep- I feel better in myself today. For too long I have been split in two-the outside doing and the inside wanting things to change but now I realise that I have to be the one to change. We had a talk this morning- after some more hurtful comments from him but I stood my ground and said that I wasn’t cooking anymore or doing any of the things that I have been doing and I was focussing on me and that we should both focus on taking care of ourselves. I accepted the rent but not the money for food- I had been doing all the food shopping before, but I’m not doing that now. There will be plenty of tantrums I know. He’s been watching TV all morning and has just come into the kitchen and asked me if I wanted to go out for the afternoon, after I’d said earlier that we should spend time apart. Hey ho, onwards and upwards eh!?X

  230.  #230Nikita on July 31, 2010 at 9:26 am


    Glad you are feeling better, it sounds like he’s already attempting to learn how to date you. I’d stay open to surprise…if you don’t have plans, can’t your new roomy make reservations for dinner…..maybe let him work on making the situation better… you feel curious about what sort of date he’d plan?……Saturday night is prime time.

  231.  #231Nikita on July 31, 2010 at 9:31 am

    Our actions are so much louder than our words…..instant gratification. But actions are the visual cues to movement and shifts. If a man sees us cooking and we tell him in a confrontational way what we aren’t doing….well that’s just plain confusing and confusing doesn’t feel safe. Transparency- feels safe and that is vision and not wordy

  232.  #232Rori Raye on July 31, 2010 at 10:44 am

    Debbie, Welcome, and oh,…no, this feels horrible – this is my second harsh reply in a row…please hear me…and we’ll all help you…but NOTHING is going on here! Your intuition is wrong. If he had strong feelings he’d do something about them. He’s been very clear about his feelings for you. Friends. He doesn’t want to date you. Your sense that he’s somehow thinking you’re not dating and that you’re waiting at home is completely imaginary and untrue. I’d love to help you get your intuition back on track…please look at what IS instead of what you want to things to be so that we can help you get REAL love, a REAL man – and what you want and deserve. Circular Dating’s function is to help you heal – so I want you to practice with so many men that you start to become aware of how you’re spinning what’s happening into a story in your head – and learn to be more in the present. I know you can do this. Love, Rori

  233.  #233Desiree on July 31, 2010 at 11:03 am

    When you’re sitting shoulder to shoulder, does it help to hold their hand. I would think of it as a reminder of “I’m here for you. I care for you; I don’t judge you.” Is it the same for men?

  234.  #234Rori Raye on July 31, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Desiree, holding a man’s hand is a very aggressive gesture – and different men will act differently. I’m going to have to research this – just did…Here’s what my husband said – “If you touch me or try to physically connect with me when I’m talking about myself – I’ll pick up that you’re making this about YOU – that you want me to know how much you care, how much you love me…when I just want to be about me and have you there just tuning into me….”

    so – your answer from another man…Love, Rori

  235.  #235Jacqueline on July 31, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    I agree with Rori. Do you want to spend your life playing games, trying to figure out what you should do to get a certain reaction from him? I spent 25 years doing that, and finally got the courage to leave. All that time he was perfectly happy working, eating the food I cooked, running, reading, whatever. I was just an annoying mosquito he had to wave away once in a while.

  236.  #236Mystyk on July 31, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    re #234

    I feel so sad reading that physical touch could be taken as being about me vs. human comfort and wanting to offer him support… and then in saying that right now it is the giving that is the problem, right?

    Okay, gotta sit with this one for a while.


  237.  #237Kath on August 1, 2010 at 2:38 am

    After everything that has been said over the weekend and me thinking that its dead in the water, he announced that he wasn;t going out last night after all- a saturday night- as his mate had blown him out. I said that it would have been nice then if he’d thought that his girlfriend might want to go out with him and so he said “do you want to go out then”- not particularly how I wanted to hear it, but I said it would be nice. So we went out and I got myself dressed up, I looked good and felt good and he couldn’t stop touching me wherever we went. Kept pointing out men looking at me, which made me smile. He was attentive and good fun and I felt really close to him. I just want it to be like that all the time, but I know I have to set my boundaries and carry on with my baby steps. I hope he’s learning though and that last night was the start of him showing me something different.

  238.  #238Stella on August 1, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    Thanks for your honest… even though “tough” advice. I will keep circular dating and practicing your other tools… I will try to stay positive in my thoughts that there is a man out there waiting to treat me as I deserve along with being one whom I am attracted to. I have had several men want a serious relationship with me but unfortunately, I have not felt even the slightest spark for them…

    Thanks again

  239.  #239Desiree on August 1, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    It’s hard enough as is to make him talk, right? So how do we give off the, “I’m here for you, I want to know this about you.” vibe if they take touch as an aggressive thing. They look back for reassurance once they’re finished talking, even if it felt good to get it off their chest, so how do we as women give them the ‘I accept you just the way you are.’ kind of vibe?

  240.  #240Daria on August 1, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    Desiree —
    say.. “ohhh” , “oh wow”, or if you want to hear more say “tell me more”… just be curious, and open, and FEEL YOUR FEELINGS.

    Rori calls it listening at level 2 and its in her book

    guys talk to me deeply all the time, from the first date… they even say wow i don’t know why im telling you this, etc but… i plan on doing this and that with my life etc…

    sometimes i ask men what their mission in life as a man is

  241.  #241Brenda on August 1, 2010 at 8:23 pm


    I’m happy to hear it went well for an evening. I hope this is a sign that setting boundaries with Rori’s tools is having a positive effect in your relationship.

    I personally think it is harsh to kick someone out with zero notice. Finding a home and moving are both huge tasks. I think if it DOESN’T work out at least a month’s notice is kind.

    Best wishes!

  242.  #242Kath on August 2, 2010 at 1:56 am

    Hi Brenda,

    Thank you- As well as a lovely evening on Saturday we also had a lovely day together yesterday (sunday). It was the nicest day I have ever spent with him. He was attentive, caring, chilled out and a really lovely person to be with. Told me I looked gorgeous which took me by surprise as he doesn’t come out with comments like that at all. Sadly it was tainted just a little bit when we when to bed as he wanted sex and I was too tired. I said I was too tired and that a hug would be lovely but his response was “Thats not fair just cos you don’t want it” and promptly turned over and went to sleep. Ah well, baby steps. This is just the start and I do have to strength to keep going, no matter how tiring I know its going to be. Thank yo ladies for giving me the kick I needed XX

  243.  #243Brenda on August 2, 2010 at 10:11 am


    Happy to hear things are back on track! 🙂 Just keep the feeling messages and “I want”; “I don’t want” type statements going!

  244.  #244Janelle on June 28, 2011 at 10:06 pm

    Edgar, great tips, thanks. can you help me understand what is actually meant when a guy says he likes to be with you, and then also talks about out of the blue that he thinks that he is easy to live with. Then says that he is not looking for a relationship and not to get heartstruck on him. I feel like I’m getting mixed signals, or either maybe he is scared or found someone else and trying to push me away. what is a good approach to find out where I stand with him?