Self-Respect Or Protection – Which Is It?

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There’s a conversation going on here in the comments, and it’s terrific, and I want to thank Daria for starting it, and Matt, for showing up here as such a smart, conscious, good man, and providing such a concrete balance to the perceptions we women develop about men our whole lives – I want to use this to go into this whole issue of “self-centeredness” and “focusing on yourself” and how a man sees all this (taking advantage here of having a man on board for the discussion). Here’s Daria’s comment-> and here’s Matt’s response->and here’s what I say:

Daria – your words – the “fuck you” attitude – is all rage and anger that comes from SOMEWHERE, and every time a man says or does or doesn’t say or doesn’t do something that makes you feel “less” – based on the needs you’ve developed your whole life from your experiences – it triggers you.

And this is what happens to ALL of us.

This would happen to Matt with a woman who triggered him in the unique way that he would become triggered.

Working on yourself has the marvelous outcome of making your triggering experiences less painful and reactionary, and more – well – funny, actually.

When I catch myself going somewhere and talking with someone (especially my husband) and suddenly, internally go to a perception that I’m not being “acknowledged” or “respected” or feeling “second class” in some way – I now can “get” – almost instantly – that my need for approval and to be “superior” and “appreciated” is being triggered.

I notice my body tense up, my face takes on a different feel, and I want to go into some version of defense mode. And I notice that that “defense” mode becomes centered on ME – but NOT in the way we want to focus on ourselves here. My stored up rage and fear has been activated, and whoever is with me at that moment becomes the SOURCE of bad feelings – even if he or she is NOT responsible for that.

What we’re doing here is learning to FEEL to GET – to TRUST – that WE are the Source of all this. And then we can feel for and have compassion for ourselves, and then that moves to a deep ability to feel for and have compassion for others, and then everything flows and all the barriers come down, we all open up…..yeah…

A person can trigger you and still be a fantastic person. That’s why the concept of “The Messenger.” The Messenger is anyone who brings you a message about yourself that can HELP you get a bead on how you operate inside, how you react to being triggered – and that can teach you how to SEPARATE out that “triggering” from your perception of that person.

In other words, a man can do something thoughtless that triggers you. Or he can simply have his own needs or personal rules and tell you something perfectly reasonable within his or her internal system, like not wanting to drive to you all the time. Or he can be triggered himself, and that affects the way he is with you.

There is a HUGE difference between not LIKING what a man does or says, and deciding that you do not wish to invest time and energy into being with him until you feel secure enough in his feelings and intentions for you (driving to him) – and being ANGRY with him for having his own ideas.

When you can separate out that anger from the simple truth of who that person is and the reality of what you’re dealing with – and learn to TALK about that with him – in the way we’re all working here – and in the way you did, Daria, in that fabulous Free Therapy date you had in the car – you’ll see that there is no “fuck you” about this. You see yourself becoming activated, and you process it through, and then you work at seeing the man in the light of WHAT IS – the reality of the situation, the basic simplicity of it – rather than through the lens of your triggered anger.

When I see exactly what’s happening to me, and I can catch it before I’ve shut down too much and gone into my particular “defense mode” – I can work through it – using all the Tools – and in a matter of seconds – the air between us is different. I see the person as the person, instead of seeing him or her as some extension of myself.

I feel my basic feeling – the “I’m not enough” feeling that surfaces whenever I get triggered in this particular way – and I think that’s what Daria is talking about, and what Matt is seeing as the end result in HIS eyes.

That’s what Matt is talking about here – what HE, a MAN sees. He can see your reaction as “self-centered” – and if he likes you, he may see that as a GOOD THING! Or, he can see your reaction as feeling hurt – a defense, a protection. And if he likes you, he may experience that as vulnerability and it may make him want to go deeper.

The only thing that’s for sure, here, is – the LESS LAYERS a man has to see through – the better. If we can just say – “I’m feeling a bit weird. My old stuff is coming up, and I can feel myself not want to put energy out here until I feel more secure…” Or “I’m just feeling exhausted and tired, and I just need to hang back here a bit to recharge…” Or something that is the TRUTH…we’ll move even faster toward what we want instead of being stuck in our old patterns.

What Matt is hearing here is your Riffing words as though you are actually saying them to the Man – but, you’re not. Matt – this is just part of Daria processing the way we’re working to process. AND – the next steps are the ones this post is about – separating out a man’s behavior and the reality of what’s going on and what you FEEL from HIM energy wise, and what you’re feeling because you’ve been Triggered.

When we make the man about what’s going on with ourselves when we’re triggered – the man becomes a kind of EXTENSION of ourselves.

And when a man becomes some kind of extension of ourselves, and then the energy of anger kicks in – we become self-centered in a very different way than we’re working toward here.

This self-centered way is the way of PROTECTION. This is shutting down your heart and going with the easiest feeling, instead of going down inside and finding the REAL feelings. And, Matt, if you knew Daria, and you really liked her – my guess is that you wouldn’t just stop seeing her for this. I believe you’d talk, she’d talk, and then in a matter of moments you’d be laughing over it.

You’d get CONNECTED over this triggering issue. You might even be mightily ATTRACTED to her for responding to her triggering with anger instead of with a typical “doormat” – “oh, okay, sure, whatever you want…” kind of thing – which is, by the way – the way we all STARTED HERE!

Instead of perceiving Daria’s mode of PROTECTION as “self-centeredness” – you’d BOTH get that there’s something going on here. Perhaps a power struggle, perhaps insecurity, perhaps an emotional shutting down from fear.

A woman cannot be truly compassionate until she is first compassionate with herself. And this HAS to be the FIRST STEP.

So – Daria – Riffing along – and moving from doormat to angry woman is a HUGE step UP, here. And know that it’s the ENERGY of it that’s so much better – it’s still simply the other side of the coin of the doormat – we flip from insecure and low self-esteem to “how dare you” and anger.

Just notice how this goes for you.

Anger is HUGE area of potential for you – this is where your treasure is. Follow it around in your life, in your body, in your heart, and go DEEPER. You are angry because of hurt, disappointment and fear – now go find THOSE feelings, and you’ll see all this stuff turn around.

I’m so proud of you, Daria, and thank you so much Matt, and let’s keep going deeper into this, it’s very helpful.

Love, Rori

34 Comments

  1.  #1Reshi on February 1, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    LOL, Rori said fuck. I feel somehow bad about this, I feel like it’s my fault and I’m a bad influence on everyone!

    But at the same time, this essential anger, the space where I’m feeling so angry and hurt and scared and panicked that I DON’T and CAN’T understand, appreciate, or respect anyone else’s feelings…”fuck you” feels like the exact right way to express it.

    I had to go back and read about Daria’s car date and then I laughed and laughed, “I am a Goddess, not a connection” indeed! I can’t even imagine saying that to a man in those words.

    My date from 2 nights ago e-mailed me to say that he spent yesterday in the ER–he had fallen down while on our date and didn’t think anything of it, but it turns out he broke something. 🙁 🙁 I felt bad, and felt like it was my fault. But he seems to have kept a smile on his face, and gone on to make terrible puns about the whole experience.

    I feel like I have a destructive effect on men, and I don’t want to be a destroyer. Because it’s the men with low self-esteem who look for destroyers and then when they’ve had enough abuse, they pick up their energy and leave (and then go find someone else just like you to do it all over again). I want to be a healer and a wellspring of vitality and life, something that men come to over and over again to be REPLENISHED–and to be replenished by giving their energy to me. I want to be in a relationship that’s a continuous healing and rejuvenating cycle. That would feel good, that would feel like a man with a waterwheel pouring all this wonderful, warm energy all over me and then me glowing like the sun, and all this abundant energy just rising off of us, coming together, and healing the entire world!

    Damn, I feel I’ve overreached my potential again. 🙁 I have a voice in my head telling me, Reshi, come back down to earth, you’ll never have it THAT good, humans were made to suffer and to go on destroying each other on this miserable planet. You’re getting above yourself and you’re saying things that no one will “get,” AGAIN. Can’t you be normal?

    NO, I can’t be normal, and I don’t want to be. That feels like standing up and shining my light and being assured. I’m tired of toxic patterns, I’m tired of human fallibility–and at the same time I’m not, I found it so endearing that this guy seriously injured himself on a date with me and he’s still e-mailing me with a smile on his face. Because something beautiful and wonderful comes out of human fallibility if we let it. He could just as easily have said something like “Oh my God, I can’t believe you made me get hurt, and why didn’t you take responsibility for me and make me go to the hospital? Oh and by the way that cost me money and it’s your fault! You’re a terrible woman!” It’s so easy to feel guilty like that, and I feel that certain men from my past who shall remain nameless would have in fact reacted that way, but the fact remains, this guy did not.

    So maybe I’m on to something with this mutual healing idea…maybe I’m not as much the destroyer as I think I am. That feels good, hopeful. I would like to see that seed grow to maturity and bear fruit.



  2.  #2alias girl on February 1, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    i feel uplifted and VERY INTERESTED in this post of rori’s. after i read it it occurred to me the stuff about my father (that i mentioned in the comments of rori’s last post about feeling messages.)

    i feel grossed out that i am still living in the past with my unresolved pain over my father’s emotional abandonment/abuse. but i know that’s what it is. i feel really grossed out. i love my feelings of disgust. i love that it feels like a big truck just ran over my hear. i love my intense rage. (RAGE) I love it. yes. i feel like a toxic machine tha could just destroy large buildings. i feel sad. i feel numb and less sad. i feel like checking out. i feel it is easier to pick a victimizer and just blame him for being incapable of loving me in a way that feels good. i feel masochistic. i love my mistaking pain for love. i love my toxic addiction to abandonment. bc i love the reunions bc then i feel like I FINALLY FIXED THE ORIGINAL problem/wound. but then it happens all over again and i have only set myself up to be retraumatized.

    ugh. i feel aful. i love my feelings of naseusness. i love them. i love my spinning in my head and unsconscious compulsive need to date my father. ugh. i feel gross. i love my feelings of grossness. i also feel turned on. i feel confused. i feel gross. i love that i am turned on by my sick psyche. i love it. i love that i may never find the happiness i truly desire if i am built this way. i feel helpless to change something so core and fundamental about my being. ugh. i feel open to circular dating so i can date otuside of my type. i feel fearful i will pick someone on an intellectual basis and it will work on polite terms for three or four years until i am completely over it bc he does not turn me on bc he does not trigger me in that daddy kind of way. oh blech. i feel very unsure about revealing my truth. but also very brave enough to scroll down andclick the button that will post this.



  3.  #3Erika on February 1, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Reshi,

    Lol about Rori saying fuck. … To me that feels liberating 🙂

    Ok, so now I am experiencing what I never even imagined was possible … which is that I and this guy have both let down so many of our barriers that our energies literally merge. So instead of it being me saying “I feel this that or the other,” we are both feeling the shifts (most are blissful), and either one of us might say “oh there it is, did you feel that,” and we both feel a wave of euphoria — and we are both experiencing it SIMULTANEOUSLY!!! How cool as fuck is that?!?



  4.  #4alias girl on February 1, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    i feel rage. and tha feels like wow that’s not rage. omg. that is intense sadness. i feel betrayed. i feel like a child i feel violated. i feel abandoned. i feel unsteady. i feel sadness. i feel like a dark cloud just moved in overhead. i feel paralyzed. i feel naseuous. i feel unprotected. i feel violated. that feels like someone reaching inside me without my permission and tampering with how i run. they crush my heart and move this over there and that over here. i feel alone. sad face. i feel unprotected. i feel like someone just shot a spear through me. i feel hatred. i feel like vomiting green vomit all over anyone who has trespassed me. i feel vengeful. i feel devasted. i love my feelgs of alone abandoned devastation. i love feeling like i am put together wrong now because someon tampered with me. i love my feelings of helpless and blind rage and wanting to categroize THE WHOLE WORLD as shitty people. i know that’s not true. i love that i attract shitty behavior from people. i love that i feel untruting towards people. i love my lack of trust. that feels like shivering inside. aw orphan girl why hello. i feel a lump in my throat. i feel compassion for her need to keep herself away from other people.i love her need to protect herself and she did it the only way she knew how which is better than not doing it at all.

    i love that i don’t relate to other people. i love my feelings of superiority. who is that? i have not named her. she is very strict and unforgiving. she is like a dictator. maybe i will name her that. my dictator HATES my orphan girl and my schlub. i love my dictator. she took lessons in mimicking my father. she only wants what she thinks is best for everybody but she is so detached from everything including herself (me) she is VERY MISGUIDED.

    i feel compassion. but i feel unsettled. and very very angry. and sad. and deflated. and alone. i love my aloneness. i love my aloneness. i love that i do not accept anyone for who they are and that i am not my authentic self and thus feel intimacey with no one. i love my tears. i love feeling frozen. i love the murky soup. yae. i love my murky soup. i love my baby steps. i am still light years away from where i was an this new normal is a zillion times better than my old level of being. i love baby steps. i love my murky soup.



  5.  #5Rori Raye on February 1, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    So cool – all of you – Brava Erika! What an amazing kind of open communication – where you have both decided that you can Feel what one another Feels as if it’s YOU feeling it – how totally lovely, because I know, as a coach that it’s true. I can feel when something’s opening up in you, across the phone lines, or shutting down, and I ask about it – and you can easily feel when a person’s energy is there or not there – these are pretty amazing things to want to have for yourself. And NAMING it – both of you – very powerful.

    Reshi and Alias Girl – such powerful stuff. Okay – so now we’re looking to go in deep into ourselves and then see if we can “get” what’s ours and what’s his – and if we’re making him a part of us so that we shut him out the way we shut out parts of ourselves – if we’re making HIM the flip side of OUR coin. The way in here is to keep doing this Feeling stuff until you get very, very comfortable with yourself.

    Anger is where the power is – and it covers up pain and fear that will disturb you when you touch it – so don’t be afraid to bounce back and forth to access the power of the anger – just KNOW what it’s all about. It’s not about what he does or who he is – it’s about what happened when you got triggered, and how you can experience that and share it.

    Love, Rori



  6.  #6Daria on February 1, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    Im feeling a little confused. Yesterday although I felt fine when I posted I spent time thinking about this blog, and my interaction with Matt, and basically feeling insecure. I felt worried I wasn’t attractive and alternating with “gotcha” feelings like I “got you” trapped in my seductive net, like the purpose of capturing a man’s attention is so that I could have him do whatever I want and basically USE him and laugh at him and Dominate in some way. When I was young this is how I used to frame relationships, it was always one guy or girl liking the other one more and the person in power “taking advantage” of that “making fun” of the other. I still take some of that with me and it feels kind of fun sometimes, like a rap battle where you “talk smak” to the other person like I’m better than you expressed in lots of different ways. I really enjoy that for some reason and I also feel weird and guilty about that. I want to ACCEPT this energy although I don’t understand how it fits into the LOVING GODDESS me.

    I feel confused because I didn’t know I felt angry saying Fuck his feelings. I wanted to grab Bethany’s attention and kind of rally her anger maybe. I really meant “don’t worry about his feelings,” but I guess Fuck sounds angry… I feel confused… that feels like pouty lips and I love my pouty lips… I feel tight in my tummy and I love the tightness in my tummy… I feel ANGRY and I feel surprised to feel that… I am feeling triggered by Ag mentioning that she did not want to dialogue with someone who wasn’t sober… (btw this is not about you AG im just feeling majorly triggered right now)… I feel worried that the world judges me… I FEEL SO ANGRY about that… I feel like defending my actions of getting intoxicated when I want to… LOL! … I feel sheepish… I feel embarassed… I feel blankly staring eyes, tightness in my tummy and lips and hotness in my body and I love these feelings… that feels like sighing and standing up a bit straighter… that feels like tightening in my back of my neck and RAGE coming up as a word in the back of my consciousness… I LOVE MY RAGE and my tightness in the back of my neck… I feel like my energy is pulling back, I feel stuck still in my lips and face… I feel a little sigh… I feel like I am struggling through quicksand, I feel like CHECKING OUT… I feel Checked out…

    I love my checking out feeling… that feels like yawny… I feel like a calm smile… I love my calm smile and my yawn… tha tfeels like huhmm and more smiling… I live my huhumm sound and my smile, and I love the tightness in my abdomen… I feel worried I will have triggered people and I feel terrified and SAD SAD SAD… I feel like I need to be loved… I feel happy of getting so much positive attention here… I feel like I am trying to take everyone’s positive attention and wanting to be better than everyone, I want to be the STAR and that feels like tightness in my cheeks and tummy, I feel horriblly GUILTY I am so sorry… I HATE that I WANT TO BE THE CENTER OF ATTENTION AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLE! And I love my self for it… I feel sad and confused because in my head I don’t know how to reconcile equality with wanting to be the best… because I really really want to be the best and I really really want to be equal with everyone and be part of something… I WANT BOTH THOSE THINGS and a lot of other stuff too that I want and that feels like smiling and laughing now…

    I feel intrigued at how many directions this post has taken for me…

    I want to say LOOK THIS IS WHAT IVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS!! This is the kind of discussions I ALWAYS get into with men about who should do what and have what energy, about me leaning back and then we wind up talking about it and I don’t know exactly how to handle it yet… and now u see it yourselves here in 2D…

    SO how do I handle these dammit? Do I discuss it or not? What to do what to do?

    I feel hot in my tummy and I love the hotness in my tummy… I feel shaky and I love my shakinesss… I feel deep breathing… I love my deep breathing… I feel cravings and I love my cravings… I feel a little overwhelmed… I love my overwhelmdness… that feels like breathing… like not typing… I feel hot in my forehead and my head feels tilted to one side, and I love my head tilt and my hot forehead and that feels like downturned mouth corners, like thoughts about not having taken the right steps towards being financially independent and that feels like downcast eyes and curling in and I love my downcast eyes and my curling in. I feel pouty lips and leaning head an I love my pouty lips and leaning head and that feels like a light smile and a squeezing in my tummy and I love the squeezing in my tummy… I feel like a sadness is in my and it is like vapor and I’m not sure where to locate it, maybe it’s in my relaxing face and pulling down cheeks and I love my sadness, I love my relaxing “resigned” face and pulling down cheeks, I feel like EOR from Winnie the pooh and I love myself even though I feel disgusted at being EOR because that feels scary and depressed and I don’t want to be depressed and that feels like tightening in my neck and forehead and nose and almost crying, and I love my tightening in my nose forehead and neck… and that feels like a forced smile ilke mhm sure and I love my tight smile and I feel sad.. I feel sad in my tummy and my face, in my eyes and my forehad and my stuck cheeks and I love my sadness, and that feels like sighing… and I love my sighing and that feels like (honestly I guess it felt like stopping and patting myself on my head! and then yawning) and I love my yawn and me patting myself on my head I feel HORRIBLY embarassed that I do these monkey things but then again maybe I was unconsciously doing EFT… and I love myself, I lvoe that I act like a monkey and not like a LADY and that feels like a weird noise coming out my mouth like huhurrahuuu… lol… I love my WEIRDNESS and I love that I stopped just to clap my hands a few times and that feels like being stuck and my right cheek feels tense and I lvoe my right cheek… I feel like excusing myself and explaining that if you’re a kinestetic person sometimes you will move around when you are processing and I am partly kinestetic… hehe.. thank you brain and I love my smile right now… and that feels like nausea… I love my nausea…



  7.  #7Erin on February 1, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Erin says:\

    I had posted this under Boyfriend Asking for Space, but Daria suggested I post this under the more recent post. Thanks Daria.

    Rori: Help

    My boyfriend had asked for some space and obviously I was devistated. Not shocked though. While I at one time I wanted to save our relationship, but I started doubting if he was capable of really loving someone or being loved.

    Background: His father took him away from his mother at age 7 and never saw her again. His father told him that his mother did not want him and did not want any part of him. He never became close to his father and when his father remarried he always resented his father and stepmother. He was married for 10 years and his wife cheated on him 3 separate times. Two months after his divorce he was in a relationship for 9 months and then one for 6 months and me for 2 years. He told me he was going to marry me some day and he loved me so much that he was never going to leave me. Of course I totally fell in love with him. Something I had not felt in such a long time after a failed 20 year marriage of my own. We did not see each other all the time as he traveled a lot. But kept in touch by phone and texting. He met my kids and I met his. We all got along great. Went on vacations together. But it seemed the closer we got the farther away he became – if that makes sense. He found is real mom about a year ago and finally met her. He found out that what his dad said was all a lie and his father kidnapped him and refused his mothers attempts to contact him. He refused to talk to his father about it – saying what good would it do. I asked him if he thought if he needed to see a counselor and he said yes, but never did. AFter this our relationship was never the same. He became more and more distant, on top of everything his job was falling a part. I just tried to be positive. When I would see him he would be depressed and tired and I spent the time playing with his daughter. I tried to be fun and upbeat, but it never helped. I started to have to initiate everything, when we would see each other and sex. We no longer had alone dates, they were always with his daughter, which I was ok with, but it was hard to talk and get close with her there. Soon his job pretty much blew up and he told me he needed a break from everything.

    It’s been 3 months since then, we kept in contact for a while – me initiating, but I eventually told him that I could not do this any more and I needed to start living my life again. He just simply said fine and started dating someone else.

    During our relationship I was playful and upbeat, mostly because we did not spend a lot of time together and I did not want to ruin the short time we had together. When I would bring up things he said he could not talk about anything right now – that he could not deal with it. He constantly began to cancel our dates at the last minute. Usually, right before we were going to meet or he was going to pick me up. He got upset because I was upset. He would then refuse to talk to me for days until he was ready to talk again. He would never discuss it, just pretended nothing happened when he finally did talk. All very frustrating. I know I did not handle everything perfect, but I tried. He told me I made him uncomfortable when I would do things special for him or told him I loved him. He said he hated disappointing people and he knew he was disappointing me, but never tried to figure out a way to make things work for the both of us. I keep beating myself up on what I could have done differently, but I don’t know if there was anything.

    Just looking for some help in maybe what I should have done or tell me what I need to do so this does not happen again. It still hurts so much, because I still really love him.

    Thanks for reading.

    Erin



  8.  #8alias girl on February 1, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    I feel upset. i feel confused. i feel confused. i feel sad. that feels like i am imploding. like all of my superiority defenses are imploding. i feel trauma. i feel sobbing. i feel tension around my head. i feel lost. i feel hurt. i feel sick. i feel hurt. i feel like i am being sandblasted all inside me. like someone is scraping all the old gunky gooey paint off my inside walls. i feel sad. i feel compassion. i feel like my ego had been screwed on too tight and now it is disappating into thin. air. i feel such sadness. i feel like my dictator has stepped down and is also disappating into thin air. which leaves me with my orphan my schulb my pirate (also though the pirate seems to be dissapting. perhaps pirate is flip side of the dictator. that would make sense.) and my emerging goddess self. so my orphan girl and my schlub still need alot of love and healing apparently. poor orphan girl. big hus for her. she is so scared and undone. and poor schlub just wants to give it all up and tune out.

    i feel grateful. in between the bouts of tears and melting i feel grateful. a little confused but softer. more open. i wish i could heal all in one big chunk and then be fabulous and fun forever more. (and rich!)

    i feel vulnerable. i feel too intense to share what i just experienced with someone in their presence. too intense. it felt so at my core. i suppose that would be intimacy. ack.

    xoxo



  9.  #9alias girl on February 1, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    i feel confused. how am i NOT going to pick my father? i always pick my father.

    i feel confused. i feel triggered by the whole world all the time which is why i spend so much time alone so i can not be angry.

    i am my father dating my father. argh. i am on a mission to be a CLEAR hehe like in scientology language. that’s probably what they are referring to. being clear is probably being untriggerable. i want to get as close to that as possible so i can form more human relatinoships and not be alone so much.

    i wonder if i will still feel sexual attraction if a guy is not triggering my father issues? ?!

    i feel confused.



  10.  #10alias girl on February 1, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    HI ERIN! Welcome! i feel happy you found rori’s blog. rori teaches about leaning back, and leaning forward and overfunctioning. i can’t say what you might or might not have done to make things turn out the way you had hoped. i feel compassion and understanding about your story. i imagine that must have been very painful for you as you tried so hard.

    rori has an ebook available on this website. it’s not too expensive and it gives a great foundation for all her tools and the language and how to turn things around for yourself. if you’re not sure you want to start with that you can start looking around through the blog and her website and you’l see how she’s categorized articles or blog posts to to help you pick and choose which ones are most interesting to you or your situation in this moment. her website is http://www.havetherelationshipyouwant.com (im not sure if there is a link from the blog. probably but i am typing from my cellphone and can’t tell)

    but the ebook will get you started where you can actually begin practicing things for yourself. i mean one can just read something too and get something out of it but for me things really began shifting when i actually practiced rori’s tools.

    it’s not just theories. it’s tools. and you will be amazed once you do. you yourself will probably be able to answer your own question you just posed.

    i believe happiness and dreams coming true are possible. i hope this helps.



  11.  #11alias girl on February 1, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    i feel self conscious i am overposting. i feel ok with it though.

    i am with reshi. i don’t want to tone down my dreams. i want to stretch as a human to meet them. not shrink them to meet me and my current limitations.

    ghandi says Be the change we wish to see in the world.

    i want a rejuvenating relatiionship too. mutually rejuvenating. that sounds very delicious to me.



  12.  #12MattM on February 1, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    Hello,

    It was easy for me to come off with an air of authority in that reply, it’s easy to try to be right rather than try to understand. For that, I apologize to Daria.

    I’ve gone through the ‘fuck you’ stage regarding women too. It’s protection, and it feels good to make the other wrong, and make myself right. It feels good to imagine my anger is righteous, even if it’s only coming from an immature, insecure place. For me, that’s mostly where my anger comes from, it’s a protection-mechanism, and there is always a lesson there. It’s very hard to love when angry.

    I’ve found a great way to marginalize anyone is to reduce what they’re doing. Evolutionary psychology is a great tool for this, which I’ve used extensively in the past. “Women just want this because…”

    These are some notes I took from the presentation between Rori and DavidD:

    We come into the relationship not fully formed, we’re not gurus. On this planet, it’s about growing and becoming the best person you can, who we really are, to get that person out in the world, to build a fulfilling personal life. This is what a relationship is really for.
    -fastest way to do that is in a relationship with a woman…and for a woman the same.
    -continually triggering each other, and learning from that.
    -learn how to be more caring, giving, to get out of yourself.
    -having this big picture will enable you to get through those tough moments when a woman freaks, or gets dramatic, tenses, or runs away. You’ll learn to stand firm, fair, and strong-minded.

    Anyways, take care.
    Matt



  13.  #13Maria on February 1, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    l spotted some phrases from Darias post, here is a copy paste it:
    “…it was always one guy or girl liking the other one more and the person in power “taking advantage” of that “making fun” of the other.”
    Now to me this sounds very important, cos -long story short- this is what happens quite a lot (several times with me, being one who always likes more, sometimes even without wanting it, really). My simple question is – how do you escape from that trap and how tu turn tables, cos what happens is that you get “hooked up” and you both know what is going on…



  14.  #14Reshi on February 1, 2009 at 11:36 pm

    So, making the man a part of us, making him the flip side of our coin so that we can shut him out the way we shut out parts of ourselves?

    Been there, done that, only a matter of time before I have the divorce papers to prove it.

    It was like, as soon as I was married, he wasn’t another person anymore–suddenly everything he said or everything he did reflected on me, and had to be taken personally. The whole issue of separating the triggered issue from the man…that was completely foreign and alien and I don’t think I would have understood it if it had been explained to me. What I saw and felt was that “my perfect fiance turned into a mean and critical husband.” He would complain about something I considered trivial, like a spoon being left out on the kitchen counter, and I would plunge into this deep trauma, this place where I couldn’t even hear or care about his feelings because I was so strongly triggered, and defend myself with a “fuck you.” It got so that I began to completely shut down emotionally and ignore him every time he had anything to say about my (lack of) housekeeping skills.

    On one level, yes, I was Right. “You’re not a whole lot neater than I am, and you knew I was this way before you married me, so leave me the fuck alone!” And that was unfortunately the only level I knew to operate from–and the only level I got back from him (“I can’t believe you’re so inconsiderate of my feelings, it bothers me to have stuff left out and you DON’T EVEN CARE.” Damn right I didn’t care. As far as I was concerned, HE hurt ME.)

    I don’t know why my husband complaining about a spoon being left out on the kitchen counter scared me so much, but I remember it felt awful. We were newlyweds and had never really fought, and the criticism felt like he didn’t love me at all anymore, like the only thing he cared about was having a perfect house and for me to stay out of “his way.” I was scared and hurt and angry and I didn’t know what to do or say.

    OK, NOW I FEEL ANGRY. Because 6 years later he pretty much told me in so many words that that was, in fact, all he cared about. Wow. I am absolutely livid. And I feel so powerless because there’s not a damn thing I can do to help my situation NOW. If I could have found Rori 5 years ago or even 3 years ago…but no, instead I kept being stupid on my own stupid path, and got needlessly abused and neglected–and inflicted abuse and neglect–for years. Yeah, I feel angry enough to turn it against myself, but Rori says I’m not allowed to do that, so what do I do with the anger? Call the poor guy up and tell him to fuck off? No, that isn’t the way. I feel angry because I have suffered things in my life that I did NOT need or deserve to suffer.

    Wow. I am feeling SO angry, and now so sad–but I can’t actually feel the sadness. I never grieved my marriage, really, just moved out and immediately put up an online dating profile. There’s a part of me that has shown up in my dreams–lately I’ve been having dreams that have forced me to re-experience the whole breakup–and she just screams out her sadness and hurt and anger incessantly, and no one hears her. My husband is there but he’s doing his own screaming and he doesn’t care about me. I don’t know how to connect with the sadness that must be stuffed down in there somewhere–because who the hell gets divorced without tears? I mean, I guess I did cry a few times but come on now, there has to be more in there. And I would rather feel it now than have it bite me in the ass and fuck up my next relationship.



  15.  #15Reshi on February 1, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    I feel like my inability to grieve means that I don’t have a heart. 🙁



  16.  #16Rori Raye on February 2, 2009 at 12:41 am

    Wow – okay, I’m blown away. This dialogue has completely jumped levels. You are all gurus. New post here…



  17.  #17Tracy on February 2, 2009 at 12:47 am

    wow……….i feel so triggered.
    today for the first time i guess in a while i actually told a guy how i feel about a situation…he’s going to be away for a while and he needed me to run some errands for him and he did not give me all the full info so i was feeling worried about where he’s going and what he’l be doing…i really like him but for now i am just circular dating and using him as one of the messengers…i felt scared and anxious as i wrote the sms and i tried to use feeling messages not so much so that i can get a reaction but so that i can be honest with him…i felt scared as i wrote it and i kept wondering how he’d react to it or what he would think……
    and it hit me………….instead of relayin how i feel about the situation i am more worried about how he wil react and the truth is i have no control over that….all i know is that i needed to tell him how i feel…
    i feel worried yes that he may not react at all or i might not like how he reacts and i love that feeling…
    i am slowly learning to show myself out more and to be more intouch with me regardless of theoutcome…
    i feel so triggered by this situation..and i am amaized at how i reacted to it..its exactly what rori has been sayin…
    i feel angry when i feel un appreciated then i let it out on the other person…and yet in truth its not their fault…if thats how they react to a particular situation then i should appreciate their reaction then choose how to deal with it depending on how it makes me feel…
    its really hard trying to follow my feelings…but i am glad i am taking baby steps and it feels liberating to actually get rid of all the layers i have stuck on me…i really feel that i have a long way to go i just hope its not too late.



  18.  #18alias girl on February 2, 2009 at 12:56 am

    reshi. i feel open to witnessing your pain. you can riff it out. either here or in private. it really helps. at first i thought it might be unhealthy. i felt scared maybe i was wallowing. but actually that crap is stuffed down and makes me frozen. when i comes up on it’s own (after being triggered) and i riff it out i feel so much more loving, compassionate, lighter, more beautiful.

    i appreciate your honesty. i feel sorry you had to go through so much suffering with your husband who it seems you did love at one time.

    i learn from your honesty and i appreciate it.



  19.  #19alias girl on February 2, 2009 at 1:03 am

    i so relate to this whole post and what it’s brought up. even though i feel kind of ick about the whole thing and want to go into denial and think of something else. but it’s a huge issue for me. like tracy just wrote about letting people have teir reactions and letting my feelings guide me in response to my needs and desires.

    my usual m.o. is to get the other person to change. or to be offended or hurt and as if They or He is hurting me when really he is just being himself.

    i feel very interested (an also repulsed) by this topic and my new plans to being open to being more triggered. it feels awful though. it literally feels near death. that’s why i sever relationships. it feels too painful to be needy or abandoneed or ignored or disrespected or dominated. i am going to riff all that old crap out of my body though as soon as i get triggered. maybe i will get as good as daria and be able to di it in my head.



  20.  #20alias girl on February 2, 2009 at 1:06 am

    i put myself back online today. i just felt i needed to do something to take my focus and energy off my ex.

    i feel open and willing to circular date.

    i know i have posted a million times today. i feel super needy. and also onto something new with this triggering business.

    i feel interested and committed to my happiness.



  21.  #21Erin on February 2, 2009 at 6:22 am

    Thanks Alias. I do have a few of Rori’s programs, but I think I found them a little too late. He was not responsive, but as said in my post, I just don’t know with his background if he is even capable of a true relationship and I keep beating myself up trying to figure out what I did wrong or could have done different.

    Rori – I would love your input – you seem so insightful. I am dating again, just mainly to get my self confidence back – my heart is not into it yet.

    Thanks

    Erin



  22.  #22Erin G. on February 2, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Wow…what a great post. I really loved the part about someone being put in your life to give you a message. How true is that. I like to call them mirrors. My husband is the perfect one of these. I have had issues with trust in the past and he is indeed a very private person. I have learned that as I learn to trust myself and be vulnerable (read: STRONG) that his triggers of keeping to himself is understandable. I have learned that his whole life has been like this not just after he met me. Although, I triggered some of what he needed to see as well. I so believe in attracting what you need and that is why I know I am committed to him. One, because of my never ending love for him…but two, because how amazing will it be when I learn this lesson!
    The place where I get stuck sometimes is letting him in to know what my triggers are. My subconscious and fears and past beliefs make me NOT want to tell him how I feel and what his triggers are for me because what if that gives him a hand up on hiding something from me. I know what the answer is to that one…but it is still the sword I keep falling on.
    Once again…Great post…and great comments. What a great learning day! I am grateful!
    Erin G.



  23.  #23tinque on February 2, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    Love brings anything unlike itself to be healed.
    The choice is yours. It’s never easy, for the deepest triggers are the most primal and the most painful and the most resistant/resilient. But as you dig deeply, peel away the layers of hurt, let them go, the rewards become ever greater, glimmers at first, but these keep you going until large swaths of brilliance bathe you more and more frequently. It’s all possible.
    hugs, tinque



  24.  #24Flipper on February 3, 2009 at 9:22 am

    Some thoughts on self protection: I feel that I have often confounded Barriers with Boundaries. Over our lives, starting with the very beginning when we were effectively helpless, we build up so many barriers to keep out the pain. The longer standing, the more they are anchored within us, settling into their foundations to the point that we think they are part of us. And yes, they did serve to protect us to a certain point. But what keeps the bad stuff out, or appears to anyway, also keeps the good stuff in. And there, too, we Thought that the good stuff was only good as in ‘nice’, high-minded, selfless. Of course, we did learn to show that kind of good to the world. But all our yucky, swamp-woman ‘good’ badness, no. And now, All of our goodness/badness has to have a coming-of-age/coming-out party. For that, those impregnable, high-walled BARRIERS MUST COME DOWN, to let our beautiful debutantes Out and all the fine guests Into the ball. And to have a splendid ball, some etiquette must be respected: shiny new BOUNDARIES MUST COME UP if we never had any, or the old ones burnished if they’d been neglected, so the debutantes will still feel protected and the attendees will know how to behave.

    Then, Have a Ball! It is a ball, so have Fun. Circular dating is not drudgery, it’s making tiny relationships. At the end of the day (indeed from the very beginning) relationships, of any kind, are what brings the most happiness to people. All kinds of people, that means those men we are so afraid of using, leading on, hurting just because we accept to spend some time with them, especially when we doubt anything will come of it. (THEY know that that time spent together is exactly the right reward for what they’re requesting, not a commitment or even a strong potential. Their gut knows that’s impossible in early days, and they shy away when the girl goes there too soon.) Remember, They are our messengers, but this is not one-way communication, We are also their messengers. (And they don’t have Rori, so they need us even more than we need them.) Remember what Daria’s guy im’d her about himself: he felt quite capable of looking after himself even if he still liked her (so was vulnerable to a certain degree) but objected to her ways of viewing their dating practices (she refused exclusivity for herself). He may not have seemed happy with her boundaries, but apparently they intrigued and inspired him because he backed off on several of His interpretations and kept coming right at her with more IM and phone even after they’d agreed to let it go for the night.

    Boundaries, like anything that must be solid, have to be tested, so circular dating is also good for that. Better to start with the light-weights, to shore things up if necessary, before putting on the top pressure with only Mr. Perfects.

    Brava to all you lovely women who’ve let their anger be felt, by yourselves and your LI’s, and are reaping the rewards!



  25.  #25alias girl on February 3, 2009 at 10:34 am

    i feel happy to be reminded by tinque that feels messages can be used to expressed, happiness, elation, excitement, enthusiasm.

    i feel happy also to read flipper’s insights into circular dating and boundaries and experimenting.

    i feel uplifted. xoxo!



  26.  #26Ann on February 3, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    I feel so happy to be back online again. Rori said something above that struck a cord with me, “Anger is where the power is. ” I’ve come to realize anger is my friend, when I listen to it, feel it and not just react to it. In my life anger has usually been what’s led me to make the change I need to.

    MattM I’m very interested in your perspective. I know we interprete things differently. But I’m curious how would a female say to you she was hurt without it feeling like she was blaming you?



  27.  #27Cassandra on February 6, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    You guys are so amazing! In the situation that I am currently dealing with I am finding that if I move out of my anger I am not going to be abel to do things that I KNOW I need to do…that are good for me. I can’t do them if i am not right in the middle of heated…rageful…furiousness and for me I know and understand that BUT Rori you said….’You are angry because of hurt, disappointment and fear – now go find THOSE feelings, and you’ll see all this stuff turn around.’ in this situation I can’t allow myself to get out of my anger or I feel that I won’t have the strength to do what I have to do. Usually I would want the anger to lead me to the hurt, disappointment and fear so taht I can work thru those and end up somewhere much lighter feeling but in this case if you take away my anger…you take away my point of strength right now. I don’t want to only be able to operate out of anger though. I want to operate out of a place of taking care of me or perhaps allowing my inner swamp thing take over briefly and BE OK WITH THAT rather than feel that I have to be in this place of anger in order to do what I should have done a long time ago. I suppose that for me right now this is indeed a case of protection.

    Matt…I give you huge props #1 for being here and #2 for even allowing yourself to figure out what you feel about any given thing and then acknowledging it. WAAY cool!

    Love and hugs….
    Cassandra



  28.  #28Reflection on February 27, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    I loved this post! Just to add more to the flavor of this… http://enlightenedrelationship.blogspot.com/2009/02/from-painbody-to-peace.html From Painbody to Peace… I’m going to write a post this weekend giving more details of what it is like to be with trauma from a slightly different and hopefully complimentary angle… we’re all undoing traumas we’ve been carrying around.. I love this blog and the blogging community… it’s more real to me than most social circles that have wandering focuses… people are allowing themselves to be so REAL here… ((relief))



  29.  #29Robin on April 12, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Love this post! Rori, this is great, thank you!

    I would love an outside take on this…
    I was at church( working) with a guy I used to be involved with. He wants to be friends, and I’m not gonna do that. He drove up w/ a girl he’s seeing i his car. At the end of church, he asks me if I can give him a ride home. I had plans afterward, and I said ” that feels weird, I could have sworn I saw your car.” He said he was dropped off, that he lent the car to the girl he’s dating, bc her car is in the shop. I said” Im sorry, I have an appointment, I can’t do it…”

    I would have had to say not even if I hadn’t had plans, bc I immediately noticed that just hearing his request made me feel second-class. I really knew I could do that….

    He said “well, I will get someone else to take me home, or I will have to call a cab.” I tried to express how I was feeling second-class, but I was really at a loss for words, and I couldn’t fiqure out how to say it w/o attacking him. All I could say was, ” I feel conflicted…” He got ANGRY and said ” Well I don’t know what these issues are that you have, but I will just get someone else to do it, if you have other plans…” I said “No, I just feel conflicted, I want to help, but I can’t…”

    Incidentally, the girl he’s dating came back to church, just after I said no, b/c sh thought he mightneed a ride home. If I had said yes, it would have been like egg in my face…..

    So does that sound like I did something mean? Or was I too nice? I think I was too nice, but I would love another perspective. Even my mom said “that was cold…” I mean, I don’t want to be his friend, and Im feel totally second-class dropping everything for a man when he’s not showing up, or giving to me…



  30.  #30Rori Raye on April 12, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Oh my God, Robin – that is the oldest trick in the book! – I’m so glad you barely got out of it. NEVER, EVER offer to drive a man around anywhere unless he really IS your friend. Like the way you would a girlfriend – and even then, you wouldn’t give up your plans to take a girlfriend home, you’d be ANGRY with her for coming to church EXPECTING that YOU will take her home, without even asking you first!! If your friend’s car breaks down and she’s stranded – that would be different. A cab is a time honored way to get a ride.

    You did great with …”I’m sorry, I have plans, I can’t…” that was the truth. If you didn’t have plans, you’d say…”I’m sorry, I don’t feel good about that…” – and LET him get angry! Men who try to take advantage of you will ALWAYS get angry when they don’t get what they want. Get used to it – because when you start getting some backbone and boundaries and diva-qualities and start loving yourself – you’re going to piss some guys off. And I say to that – Amen! Because, at the same time, you’re going to inspire and light a fire under and attract like crazy a HUGE amount of all the other guys around – the much BETTER ones. Love, Rori



  31.  #31Scarlet on November 16, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    So, I’ve been dating someone for the past 5 months and I have decided to give him a chance and be exclusive with him. He calls me way more often then I call him and today he made a huge deal about it. He said that if I don’t call him it makes him think that I don’t think about him, which is completely not true. I think of it as leaning back. The problem is that I’ve been doing circular dating for over a year now and got so used to never calling the guy first that now I just don’t do it automatically. I just wait for him to call. I call once in a while but most of the time I just do the calling back if I missed a phone call from him. He’s really great and has really been stepping up and treating me great and I feel amazing when I’m with him and I don’t want to mess this up. Should I start calling him more often? Did I just get into a routine that is only meant for circular dating and not an exclusive relationship that is going well? And if I am doing the right thing by waiting for him to call first, then how do I explain that to him in a way that he will understand and be ok with?



  32.  #32Ke on July 5, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    It all starts from self-awareness