Sometimes Being A Girl Feels Like It’s Going Against EVERYTHING…But Do It Anyway

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waterwheel roriHere’s a conversation with Pamela (who’s been AMAZING keeping together and moving forward a genuine relationship with a very “Difficult” man on the “Toxic Men” scale for several years now, long distance!) – and it brings up a very touchy concept for many of us – the essential “laying down” of “independence” if you choose to be with a man:

Rori, Sam’s trip to my city for my friend’s wedding was a huge success. He was relaxed – engaged in long conversations with my family members, was kind and thoughtful towards me – was affectionate ( shower sex) and even asked about 4 times if I could visit him in a month. He even laughed on occasion.

Now I am going there to visit at his request. The first two weeks after his return his “tone” was still loving. Then gradually – he went back to “man cave” mode. Here and there he would go back into mono syllable responses ” aha aha” -or “hmm” when we spoke on the phone. The past two nights his “tone” has increased into almost annoyance/hostility.

I have told everyone – including Sam – that I enjoy going to ANY restaurant except ones that are noisy. I hate having to SHOUT over someone and hate not being able to hear the other person. Outside of that request, I can go anywhere and enjoy myself.

Two nights ago Sam blurts out “How loud does the place have to be for you not to go there? There is this place that’s supposed to be the best bar/restaurant in the city. I can go with someone else but…”

I said ” Oh it feels like fun. I can do loud – I have done loud …”

Before I could finish he blurts out in FRUSTRATION ” OH FORGET IT FORGET IT.”

I felt AWFUL – like I had disappointed him or RUINED his plans. I said sweetly “Well let me look it up online. Sometimes Yelp lists the noise level.

Sam says: “No just forget it. I don’t want to travel there and have to leave…”

Last night I was sick with headache, so when he called I was in bed early. When I said I was sick he responds “ME TOO.”

I felt stunned again, and said: “Oh so sorry. What is wrong? Do you have a cold?

Sam sounding all annoyed: “Don’t know.”

Me: “Is it your stomach?”

Sam” Not sure. Don’t know. I have been sick for a while

So I dropped it when his tone was annoyed and not forthcoming with any information. BTW: here is a perfect example where my mind goes blank and I feel terrible and don’t know how to respond so I say NOTHING. I often think this could have been an opportunity to connect to his heart in a relaxed honest fashion.

Background to the noise in restaurant story: Last year we went to brunch. The music was blasting so I politely asked the waitress if they could turn down the music. She did and I thanked her. Then SEVERAL months later we go back to the same place. We sat down.

BEFORE the waitress comes over, Sam in a VERY annoyed voice, scolds me and says ” DON’T ASK THE WAITRESS TO TURN DOWN THE MUSIC.”

I had completely forgotten this – apparently he hadn’t. He said “Is this loud?

I said “A little...”

He says all in a HUFF “Let’ s go then...”

We get outside and he is all pissed “Okay where do you want to go then?”

I mentioned two other places and we went to one of them, BUT why on earth did SET HIM OFF like that?

Now I am afraid there will be more incidents like the ones above…Love, Pamela

Here’s what I wrote back:

Pamela – we’ll talk – in the meantime, obey these rules:

Do NOT ask him ANYTHING ABOUT HIMSELF.

Do NOT follow anything he says with questions!!!

Keep chatting about your own thing, then end the call…

The most you say when he says he feels bad is “Oooo, poor baby…” then back to…”I feel like I’m spinning on a dance floor! – the fun part of vertigo!”

Also – he cannot stand when you arrange anything (this is not uncommon at all…if I’d asked the waitress to turn down the music, rather than spoken directly to my husband and requested that HE ask the waitress to turn it down, my husband would have reacted just as Sam did…).

He’d probably like to order for you, too.

So – just be a demure girl and don’t take ANYTHING INTO YOUR OWN HANDS.

Just keep your mouth shut, delight in EVERYTHING, smile, ask for HELP whenever you don’t know what to do or where to go, and do not allow yourself to be bothered by ANYTHING!

More Answer Now:

Okay – hey, I know we’re “past” this. We’re feminists, we’re independent, we can take care of ourselves – who wants to give a man the power to ORDER ANYTHING for us!!

Well – Back to the bottom line here: No one said we have to be married.

No one said we have to be in a relationship.

Or in a relationship with a man.

So – you either go with what the man you want needs and wants – or you give up that man.

Notice I’m not saying: “You do everything a man wants you to do…”

You always have “veto” power. You can always say “NO.” You can always express your feelings.

I AM saying: You cannot just act like you’re alone, taking care of yourself, or out with your girlfriends, or at work.

You can’t squeeze the man out of the picture.

There really are no other options.

“Change” is not within your power.

Yes – you can IMPACT a man. INFLUENCE him. INSPIRE him to WANT to change, to make you happy.

You have LOTS of power there.

And – the route to that power is the “girl” route – and so we’re back to what I told Pamela to do.

You just can’t “change” a man by wanting him to change, telling him to change, or asking him to change.

It’s way more complex than that – AND way SIMPLER than that!

It has to do with YOU, and not HIM.

It has to do with what YOU want, what YOU’RE “okay” with, how you’ll get YOUR needs met.

Until you can FIND that power, until you can feel more confidence, until you can let go of fear of “what will happen if…,” until you can find comfort in just being who you are and however you are at any moment – just:

Do the “girl” stuff.

Follow my directions.

Give your “independence” up to him.

Start considering “interdependence,” instead, and what that might look like.

Let him order for you.

Love, Rori

193 Comments

  1.  #1Lisa on November 21, 2013 at 8:41 am

    I really love it when my man/men order for me… I have no issue with that…. I love it when they ask the waitress to get me something, ask them if it is dairy free etc.

    I have an issue with just keeping my mouth shut all the time and only listening b/c I did that for such a long long time and it got to the point where I was turning into a therapist for them.. So, now I talk about me, and listen to them some, but not for long long periods of time…

    Hummm I’ve never thought of being feminine as giving up my independence, actually it feels the opposite for me… I’m more independent and able to focus on me more…

    and I had my last relationship he acted that way when I went back on what I said. so I totally know that response…. you said you don’t like….. and he was reacting to me, trying to please him… I realized it after he reacted… they really do need us to stick to our guns…

    “S” said to me last night at the car kissing me goodnight… ” just keep taking care of you”… I realized at that moment that I’m doing the tools right.. else he wouldn’t have said that…

    @Dominique love the picture and the e-book…<3

    OXOXO



  2.  #2Olivia on November 21, 2013 at 8:47 am

    Rori I love this. But. My question is this: I think I have a oh so slightly difficult man. He likes doing and planning and ordering for me and all that jazz. He adores me btw. BUT he complains sometimes! “Can’t you have an opinion sometimes?” “Why do I have to plan everything.” “YOU choose the restaurant.” And sometimes when I choose, he likes it. But other times I can tell that he doesn’t like it and he doesn’t even know he doesn’t! Like a child who needs a nap and all the adults can see it but the chd cannot. He just gets cranky. It’s aggravating! And words on how to navigate this???



  3.  #3Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 8:59 am

    OMG, if a man told me not to ask the waitress to turn the music down, I would not like being told what to say and not say one little bit.
    And would express that, I am an adult not a child and don’t want to be told what to say and get myself away from him. Sounds too controlling to me. Wouldn’t be a match for me.

    Cringe.
    I can feel myself shuddering.
    If he wants to give my order to the waitress fine, if he’s up for the job of listening and retaining and repeating that information correctly sadly IME most don’t listen to what you’ve asked for and give the waitress the wrong order. Especially if ordering for themselves, me and children. Most female waitresses know this and that’s why they ask the women for their order and the childrens.
    And if the man gets it wrong, we are all supposed to just be quiet because it doesn’t matter.
    Don’t make a fuss. Oh never mind attitude.
    IME the ones that make a fuss get what they want. And the ones that don’t and smile sweetly pretending it doesn’t matter get what they are given like it or lump it and are supposed to be grateful for what they don’t really want.
    Other people may not have found that.
    That’s my experience.

    Each to their own. If other women are ok with being with a man who speaks and treats them like that. And want to be told what they can and can’t say and who they can and can’t speak to.

    Is that really what a grown up woman wants in a relationship? I don’t



  4.  #4Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 9:23 am

    Does being in a relationship with a man really have to mean being treated and spoken to like a child?

    Surely interdependent adult relationships involve two healthy adults. Not one going back to taking on a child role.

    I understand that no healthy grown up man wants to be bossed around and told what to do by a woman in a romantic relationship.
    To me no healthy grown up woman wants to bossed around and told what to do by a man in a romantic relationship.



  5.  #5Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 9:24 am

    either.



  6.  #6BeLoved on November 21, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Interesting that she would tell Rori – “I felt stunned”, “I elt AWFUL – like I had disappointed him or RUINED his plans” instead of him.
    Seems like that’s where the real potential for juice and intimacy is here.
    Or even to say, “I feel scared to say what I’m really thinking and feeling because I feel scared you won’t like me/might leave/don’t know how you might react.”

    This feels less about ‘independence’ to me and more about getting really REAL with a man.



  7.  #7Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 9:37 am

    I bet my bottom dollar that it isn’t a question of Pamelas man wanting to ask the waitress for her. He perceives her as being fussy and difficult. And wants her to ignore that it bothers her and put up with it.

    I bet my bottom dollar that either Pamelas Mother or Father were also like this man.



  8.  #8BeLoved on November 21, 2013 at 10:51 am

    “I feel scared to say what I’m really thinking and feeling because I feel scared you won’t like me/might leave/don’t know how you might react.”

    I should really read my own posts sometimes – that might have been useful with the guy who felt the need to reassure me by giving me even more details about his dating life after I said I felt uncomfortable hearing about them.

    “I feel scared to tell you how pissed I really feel because I don’t want you to think I’m a psycho.”

    Hahaha, that would have been AWESOME. I wish I had thought of it then 🙂



  9.  #9Angel on November 21, 2013 at 10:51 am

    I love this and I recognised some of it which make me connect deeper. I feel though that.. Omg, this was so strange, I started writing and felt this sudden wave of sadness come over me and I started crying for the first time since this happened. Perhaps every time I go to this blog I allow myself to feel more than I otherwise do. I feel so confused and sad and angry and I really don’t like what I see in myself. I’ve been diagnosed with GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) and chronic stress and I feel HORRIBLE about it. Everything that I’ve liked about me are just bad coping mechanisms for anxiety I never knew I had. I am so mad. And so sad. And so confused, I don’t know who I am anymore!
    I know this doesn’t really have to do with relationships, but this page has come to feel like a safe haven for me and I felt I needed to share this with someone.



  10.  #10MovingMagic on November 21, 2013 at 11:45 am

    I love this article. Mostly because it help me recognize where I’ve been and how far I’ve come. I’ve embraced my inner goddess without fully realizing it…which is pretty amazing. I don’t want to accept that kind of behavior from anyone, let alone men. It invokes feelings of *yawn* for me. It makes me want to go frolick somewhere. ..very far away. 😉



  11.  #11April Rose on November 21, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    It seems like the man (Sam?) in the above article has a condition in which his fears won’t let him have a fresh experience.
    I’m referring to his panic at the thought of his woman’s reaction to loud restaurant music.

    I often react to my thoughts of past experiences.
    I’m reacting to a recollection of my own previous reaction.
    Wow, talk about over-thinking!



  12.  #12Turquoise on November 21, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    Yuck, I don’t like this response at all…. if you want to be with a man, you can’t speak for yourself or else it will never work? Obviously not all women who are in relationships operate this way. This one has me shaking my head. I don’t want all one way or the other… I want a balance, to feel equal and able to speak about what I want and need.

    This man sounds extremely frustrated (for no normal reason unless there is a lot more to the story) , and I don’t see that this advice is helping Pamela. I guess the assumption is that if she stops complaining about anything…. he will behave better? And what if he doesn’t? What if he’s frustrated because she’s not being open or communicating with him? Where is the advice to choose herself, to be around a man who you feel comfortable and relaxed with?

    Pamela, if I were you…. I’d give this man some serious space to miss you and when he asks why…. I would say that I didn’t appreciate being spoken with in that tone. I don’t want that negativity and exasperation in my life. He needs to knock it off Pamela if he wants to be with you. You deserve to spend time with men who please you… not shame or embarrass you. Are you CDing?



  13.  #13Millie on November 21, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    I would not be okay with “Sam.” I would need to be with someone more sensitive to my feelings.

    I went on a great date last night! I call him “dog park guy” because our first date was at the dog park. The date was great because I felt like he’s a guy that wants to be a gentleman, he wants to please a woman, he wants to be the man, he is capable of stepping up, and I feel like I haven’t met someone like that who I’m actually attracted to…maybe ever. I was super late to the date because I got lost and then my phone died…but he was still there waiting. I told him, next time let’s come in the same car to avoid this, and he said Done! I also offered to buy him a drink for having to wait so long and at first he said ok, but when I reached for my purse, he said-No I got this. And I felt super smiley….At one point in the night he said “thanks for hanging out with me,” and I responded with telling him I feel frustrated when men are so casual about dating. This is a date, own it, say it’s a date! He laughed and turns out he was kind of playing it cool..he asked me if I considered the dog park a date cuz he asked his guy friends and they said no. I told him yes it was!! And he was all smiley and said good, so this is our second date! He is a gentleman and I told him I like old-fashioned dates where men own it. Overall, I feel good with this guy because I like him, but not too much where I feel self-conscious being honest. I don’t worry what he thinks of anything I say, I just say it and it works…So that feels good!!

    With mechanic…I feel like I care a bit too much what he thinks about me, so I’m not able to be as confident. I’ve been leaning back with my energy…haven’t said a word about the kissing the other night…and he hasn’t either! BUT he hasn’t stopped communicating since. He asks what I’m doing, how was my dinner…etc. I feel like he’s interested, but I’m playing it cool. I’m not lifting a finger, he’s going to have to. There will be no me asking him that pertains to dating, or coming over, or about that night….I feel intrigued with myself and powerful! I feel like a rock right now. I’m not going anywhere..not away and not towards. It’s up to him….



  14.  #14CurvySiren10 on November 21, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    Turquoise, I agree totally. All I could think was “yuck” when reading this. Sorry…maybe I’m not much of a siren if this is what it means: “So – just be a demure girl and don’t take ANYTHING INTO YOUR OWN HANDS.

    Just keep your mouth shut, delight in EVERYTHING, smile, ask for HELP whenever you don’t know what to do or where to go, and do not allow yourself to be bothered by ANYTHING!”

    Keep your mouth shut?? Really? How is this being authentic? How is “not allowing” yourself to be bothered by anything actually being genuine??

    Sorry….I don’t feel good about this. It seems like a game to me. And I think a strong man would see right through it….



  15.  #15Mercedes on November 21, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Popped in to read…and I shouldn’t be….way too busy for this right now. LOL!

    But woah! This advice isn’t really me. haha! J can order for me (if I’ve told him what I want…it does feel nice) but if I have a problem or a complaint or an issue or even if I want to compliment a waiter…if I have anything at all I want to say…I can’t even imagine asking him to do it for me. He’d look at me like I was out of my mind. The music is too loud for *me* but I need *him* to complain about it for me? Nope. I wouldn’t even think about doing that!

    Thank GOODNESS there are men in this world who find outspoken, confident women very sexy. If those men didn’t exist, there would be a TON of lonely women out there.

    Hope everyone is well. I have to get back to work so I can focus on the yoga studio tonight. There is SOOOOOO much to do!

    Much Love,
    Mercedes



  16.  #16Millie on November 21, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Turquoise I agree with you! I love the advice you suggest for Pamela.



  17.  #17Mercedes on November 21, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    “(this is not uncommon at all…if I’d asked the waitress to turn down the music, rather than spoken directly to my husband and requested that HE ask the waitress to turn it down, my husband would have reacted just as Sam did…).

    So – just be a demure girl and don’t take ANYTHING INTO YOUR OWN HANDS.

    Just keep your mouth shut, delight in EVERYTHING, smile, ask for HELP whenever you don’t know what to do or where to go, and do not allow yourself to be bothered by ANYTHING!”

    🙁 And then seek out the court and see what it will take to change your middle name to “doormat”.

    You ladies that used the word “yuck”…I’m right there with you!!

    One day I’m going to start blogging again and when I do, I’m going to write a post about being strong and confident and outgoing and lovely and sexy and powerful…and how alpha men are so incredibly attracted to you!!

    Much Love,
    Mercedes



  18.  #18Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    I feel the same Turquoise post 13, CurveySiren 10 post 14 and Mercedes Post 15.



  19.  #19CurvySiren10 on November 21, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    Yes Mercedes! I will love that blog!! The “doormat” comment made me laugh out loud!

    “Thank GOODNESS there are men in this world who find outspoken, confident women very sexy. If those men didn’t exist, there would be a TON of lonely women out there.” <—-AMEN! 🙂 And glad I found one or I'd surely be one of the lonely ones…lol .

    Yep Syreena, we're on the same page.



  20.  #20Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    It just seems so yucky, like a little girl asking her Daddy.. Eeeeek!

    Daddy/daughter type of relationship sounds really unhealthy to me.
    And yes there are a lot of men who treat women like children and expect them to behave like good little demure girls. Much easier to manipulate and control.



  21.  #21Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    It’s like Daddy can you please take care of my feelings.
    Something that we do for young children or very old people.
    Or family when they are too ill.

    Even with our children we encourage and facilitate more and more for then to do his for themselves and have full emotional autonomy of themselves.
    We can still be in healthy and interdependent relationships where we are kind and considerate towards ourselves and others but don’t give ourselves up to others.



  22.  #22Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    I don’t want to be a girl. I want to be a woman.



  23.  #23April Rose on November 21, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Curvysiren

    ” How is “not allowing” yourself to be bothered by anything actually being genuine??”

    I think this is advanced stuff. I’m looking at it this way:
    The woman gets to choose. To choose the man she wants. AND, to choose how good she will feel about herself in any situation. Choosing how to respond to triggers, letting them flow over her silky feathers and away (rather than getting upset or angry).

    It takes practice.

    In my life with WM, my leaning further and further back has resulted in me feeling a lot calmer.
    My anger levels have diminished hugely.

    I can imagine that Rori’s advice above could take Pamela into ever deeper levels of feminine energy until she finds that ‘ping’! – her feminine clarity one days wakes her up and she finds herself with a lot more powerful choice in her life.



  24.  #24Tam on November 21, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    I don’t like it either, but in my experience it is true that the real alpha males like to be the boss…and sometimes it just takes a tweaking to keep them in that mode. I am oerhaps alone because I don’t do ‘damsel’ or keeping quiet and pretending to be all sweet when I don’t feel livid and angry.
    I can say that ‘speaking up’ has lost me men…for sure…but those were men that were in my mind and for me lower quality and could not deal with a woman like me. And frankly, if it is the choice between playing the sweet helpless girl, or being alone…I would rather be me and alone. And I am.



  25.  #25April Rose on November 21, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    It’s all about staying *totally* out of masculine energy.

    (I’d say beware taking this advice if you are a perfectionist. You have to promise not to beat yourself up if you lean forward and he reacts badly).

    I love these ‘tools’, and I feel curious to experiment with them on my often-feminine-energy man.

    1. Delight in everything – my heart feels happy to have the permission to enjoy constant delight.

    2. Don’t take anything into your own hands – remember I’m in a bubble with a man when we’re together. I want him to lead.

    3. Ask for help – I’m getting good at this and it feels really feminine. I feel great seeing him drop what he’s doing in order to come and be my hero.

    4. Smile – easy, and good-feeling.

    5. Keep your mouth shut – This is working amazingly for me. Especially when I remember that what used to come out of my mouth was seldom a feeling message!

    6. Do not allow yourself to be bothered by anything – I am too wrapped up in the excitement of my own projects to let anything get me down. And I remember that it’s not personal (other people’s behaviour), so how could it upset me?

    7. Be a demure girl – I play with this. I know I am smart and funny and very, very capable. But I do so love playing out the feeling of ‘I’m just a girl here’. It makes me feel powerful and in control in such a sweet and soft way.



  26.  #26Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    There is this misconception about true Alpha males.

    The research was based on wolves and how wolves in captivity behaved. One we are not wolves and two, wolves in captivity if you want to go down that road behave differently than the true Alpha wolves in the wild.



  27.  #27Shar Lean Way Back on November 21, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    I think what Rori said is being taken out of context. That isn’t all she is saying.
    She also says:

    So – you either go with what the man you want needs and wants – or you give up that man.

    Notice I’m not saying: “You do everything a man wants you to do…”

    You always have “veto” power. You can always say “NO.” You can always express your feelings.

    I AM saying: You cannot just act like you’re alone, taking care of yourself, or out with your girlfriends, or at work.

    You can’t squeeze the man out of the picture.



  28.  #28Cris on November 21, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    I feel unsure about if I like or dislike this post, sorry… if you can’t behave as a girl (simply because you hate the loud music and can’t be in the bar), then leave it???



  29.  #29Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    A healthy grown up man doesn’t need the grown up women he is with to behave like a little girl rather than a women.

    A man may want this but it isn’t a need. He is behaving in a needy controlling way. Wanting to control others.There is a difference.



  30.  #30Tam on November 21, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    I want to be myself, not worry all the time whether I am in masculine or feminine energy. It worked in my 20’s why not now? Because society is changing…with the advent of internet/throwaway society, people mostly are not in it for the long haul and look elsewhere, all a big supermarket…the disintegration of values, integrity and honesty. Everybody is at it, everybody catching up with old flames, new flames, married or not…so easy to just look elsewhere….and find someone ‘easier’ but that doesn’t mean we have to bend ourselves to ‘keep our man’? Hm. No.



  31.  #31Tam on November 21, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    My research was not based on wolves but guys who are very strong/manly/masculine leaders…everr tried tellomg them what to do/eat/where to go? Do it and watch – NOT pretty.
    Sadly, this is the type of men we like, masculine energy and go-getter etc. so in that sense, I have made the experience described above….but i would rather be alone than change my personality to a doormat/eggshell type again. Been there and done that.
    I always let men order for me and that kinda stuff but I am not a pushover..so spinster it is? Alright.



  32.  #32Cris on November 21, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    @Tam: good point!!! anyway, after so many years… I’m tired of my masculine energy!! xoxoxo



  33.  #33Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    Are they leaders or tyrants/dictators type?

    True Alphas are leaders.
    Not Tyrants and dictators.

    The man who Pamela is describing shows us by his language. That he is not good leadership material.
    His language is of the controlling dictatorial category.



  34.  #34Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    Yes and women who have been abused are attracted to this.



  35.  #35Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    Not good candidates for healthy loving relationships.



  36.  #36Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    This is what makes him a tyrant wanting to dominate and control a woman, rather than a leader.
    His words.
    ” DON’T ASK THE WAITRESS TO TURN DOWN THE MUSIC”.

    It’s in the language and in his tone which Pamela describes as huffy.



  37.  #37Liquid Light on November 21, 2013 at 3:48 pm

    I had a bit of a different take. To me, this woman sounds like she is kissing a** bending over backwards for him. She is putting him first and not herself and that’s why he’s getting angry. For instance when she says:

    said ” Oh it feels like fun. I can do loud – I have done loud …”

    She is going against her own desires in order to please him. I can see how this might make him angry since she’s not being real and honest and I think that’s what he’s reacting to

    And again with this whole thing below, she’s devaluing herself and her needs by being so concerned about him when she herself is sick. Or maybe he sensed that her talking about being sick was some kind of ploy to garner sympathy from him. Its hard to say but I think its pretty interesting that he said he was feeling sick as soon as she said it. Not very manly/attractive. I would have just ignored it too since its just not worthy of much of a reaction.

    Last night I was sick with headache, so when he called I was in bed early. When I said I was sick he responds “ME TOO.”

    I felt stunned again, and said: “Oh so sorry. What is wrong? Do you have a cold?”

    Sam sounding all annoyed: “Don’t know.”

    Me: “Is it your stomach?”



  38.  #38Liquid Light on November 21, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    About not asking the waitress to turn down the music, letting him do it is allowing him to be your hero. And men LOVE that so I think it helps build rapport. I think its pretty rare for a man to feel like he’s a hero so I think giving him these opportunities as often as possible is really good. It will make him feel great about himself around you and he will want to spend more time around you because of that.



  39.  #39Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    I agree Liquid Light.

    That part did feel odd to me ” that feels fun, I can do loud etc.
    Does go against what was said earlier.

    One if you have a headache and are feeling crap and gone to bed sick why answer the phone?

    Two it makes most people feel unheard and dismissed if when they say they feel ill, the other person immediately goes into there stuff.

    ” I felt stunned was the clue and the authentic thing to say, when he launched into he felt ill too.

    It wasn’t about him, it was about her until she had finished and then I would have asked back what about you and listened to him and him feeling unwell.

    This way both people feel heard.



  40.  #40Liquid Light on November 21, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    I felt stunned was the clue and the authentic thing to say, when he launched into he felt ill too.

    yes, I agree Syreena. She wasn’t being authentic and I think thats the root of most of the negative dynamic with this man.



  41.  #41Femininewoman on November 21, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    SharLean I feel so resonant with what you said. I am reminded of how Rori and some other coaches I have followed expressed how women resist/revolve against some of the things recommended to really shine thru as a woman. I guess it is no wonder most of us are here. Reading some of the comments I feel myself wondering if it occurs to us that men come out of the factory loaded with basic maleness that is just them. It is the way it is and it is wise to allow what is or to struggle trying to change it. We are a really interesting specie.



  42.  #42Femininewoman on November 21, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    I believe the man is reacting to the incongruence of “I felt AWFUL………………..I said sweetly” . He felt the awful vibe so the sweet did not feel resonant with him. As a matter of fact I feel pretty confident he felt off about it like she was taking him for a fool. As if he didn’t really know the truth. I find it offensive and hate when people do that kind of thing to me so I can imagine this man could feel the same way too. He is reacting to what he feels around her and I imagine him feeling icky. The words and the tone not truly reflective of what the true feeling is inside. I see how this can breed distrust. How can a man feel safe in the face of this?



  43.  #43Femininewoman on November 21, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    “Last night I was sick with headache, so when he called I was in bed early. When I said I was sick he responds “ME TOO.”

    This to me can be sychronicity. I believe when people are energetically connected they sometimes experience the same things through the ether. They are connected. I see him saying “ME TOO” is partly also reflective the male competitive nature. As such he does not want to be mothered and coddled like the baby with the follow up questions. I believe an “hhhhmmm or what a bummer” might have elicited a different response.

    My sense is that if Pamela considers this relationship a learning environment each interaction could be different because her frame would be different. Around curiosity to learn about this man, about herself, and the dynamic that a relationship with him could be successful. She obviously chose to be with him for a reason. Especially seeing this is long distance and she has kept it going for years. There has got to be some satisfaction she gets out of being with this man. I wonder what is the trade off?



  44.  #44Linda on November 21, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    This post.. well I just cant relate to it. I felt like “Whaaat”? when I read it.



  45.  #45Femininewoman on November 21, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    ” DON’T ASK THE WAITRESS TO TURN DOWN THE MUSIC”.

    Interesting that the man is being labeled a tyrant just because of this. I wonder what it would feel like to admit that I don’t know this man so I don’t know what’s going on with him.

    Interesting I see this as reflective of being embarrassed. If I was going to assume anything I would assume that he feels embarrassed by this, which would be his issue. Many a man would see this as complaining and most of them don’t like complainers. It is human to wonder when will “I” be the subject of the complaints.



  46.  #46Femininewoman on November 21, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    Linda I understand what you are saying. I am just so open to experiment with different ways of being. I also developed a new belief “You catch more bees with honey”. When I read the article that was what came to mind.



  47.  #47Linda on November 21, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    FW … interesting take on what you saw here especially this sickness thing as synchroncity… my first cerebral response to the dialogue was that he was not concerned about her and was keeping it all about him in that and all interactions with her

    I do have to wonder too. Where is the good part for her?



  48.  #48Linda on November 21, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    As yes… honey… bees… but they have stingers too! ouch. lol



  49.  #49Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    I prefer and feel turned on by what is classed as an Omega male myself.

    They are the sexiest top dogs to me.



  50.  #50Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    47. I felt the same Linda.

    “Yuck I feel repulsed by the saying ” you catch more flies with honey”.

    Sickly sweet and manipulative.
    Being nice to get what you want.
    Woolf in sheeps clothing comes to mind.

    Being nice is not the same as being good and honest.



  51.  #51Syreena on November 21, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    I feel turned off by men and women who don’t speak up for themselves when they aren’t getting what they want and are afraid to complain and speak up if something is bothering them.
    If he doesn’t like me complaining fine by me
    Go be with some other woman then.
    I’d hold the door open for him.

    Any man who doesn’t want to hear the complaining that someone feels uncomfortable and didn’t want to tolerate how loud something was wouldn’t be one I wanted to be in a relationship with. Or would feel happy to be in charge of any children

    I want a man who is considerate and if he was out with me and our children would listen like I would if my children were saying their ears hurt or they felt unconformable or upset by the loudness.
    And would go and ask if the music would be turned down, not expect them to shut up not speak up.
    Be seen and not heard attitude ignoring and dismissing their needs.
    I would love a man to think it was great to be in a relationship with a woman who was willing to take care of her own needs and her childrens as they arose. And he do the same so they were on the same page about getting individual needs met.

    And if it wasn’t possible or the people in charge didn’t want to then I would leave and go somewhere else. Or solve the problem some other way. I would want to conflict and complaint dealt with and solved though not ignored.



  52.  #52Daria on November 21, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    You cannot just act like you’re alone, taking care of yourself, or out with your girlfriends, or at work.

    You can’t squeeze the man out of the picture.”

    this really helps me

    ive been wondering what to do, sometimes i get the urge to talk to a man like he’s one of my brothers/girls

    or like im out doing my thing/work

    or do something i would do by myself (pee in that bush, not the one he chose)

    and now i have a clear guide yay!!!

    and it feels like such a relief to get a direction on this



  53.  #53Daria on November 21, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    I feel scared to say what im really feeling!! thanks Beloved!



  54.  #54Daria on November 21, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    Tereana – yay for connecting with me on the morning temperature thing ! 🙂

    i did know about it yeah, i feel excited, i had been tracking it, getting more aware of my cycle… i am taking charge of my sexuality and fertility

    so i’ve had condomless sex for my physical pleasure without worry right now! yay !!!

    the thyroid thing is that hypothyroid can be at cell level not just that thyroid gland isnt making enough

    the way it used to be checked before was by temperature… human temp is said to be 98.6….

    anything lower than on wakeup that means hypothyroid (at cell level, again not at gland, doctors might not understand this nowadays like they did in the 50’s)

    mine was in the 95-96 range…

    eeks

    i got some over the counter thyroid gland (dessicated) online to use, but i’d rather eat seaweed than take thryoid

    i want to experiment to see how i feel bringing up my cellular thyroid function …

    should give me energy and great outlook and heal my body

    I read a medical e-book on it called Hypothyroidism Type 2



  55.  #55Tereana on November 21, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    I have been posting on the old thread…it was a good thread ; )

    Tammy, Andrea, Elsie, I left notes for you.

    I made a post I won’t rewrite here (it was more for my own processing purposes, I guess).

    And I even mentioned something Daria wrote, too.

    I’m tired. It’s so hard to keep up sometimes!

    ‘Night



  56.  #56Tereana on November 21, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    Daria, you saw it – sweet!! 🙂



  57.  #57Tereana on November 21, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    98.6 is an average and it isn’t true for everyone! Check out “taking charge of your fertility” for a whole bunch of info on how tracking that works (if you haven’t already).

    One thing I learned is that BBT is different from your normal body temperature. When you sleep, you are at rest and your temperature drops (like a hibernating bear). A 95 or 96 is not necessarily anything to worry about if you are taking your temp first thing in the a.m. The moment you start to move, and even over time, if you get up late, your temperature will start to rise. Your personal temperature may not get as high at 98.6 during the say. But that doesn’t mean there is anything super wrong, just by itself, if that’s normal for you.

    That said, you may still have a thyroid issue, if there are other symptoms. and seaweed is definitely good to eat! : )



  58.  #58Tereana on November 21, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    For example, my BBT hovers around 96.2 or so during the first two weeks of my period. After I ovulate, it goes up to 97.4 or so. This is really nothing to worry about. Or, I could get checked for a thyroid issue. Who knows ; ) I’ve been tracking my temp for years. It is super fun!



  59.  #59Veronica on November 21, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    I didn’t meet with Fireguy – it was clumsy planning and felt a bit leaning forward of me – to want to meet with someone who wasn’t jumping to make plans. And my interest has cooled as a result. I feel let down.

    But I went to an art gallery anyway in the time we would’ve met and although the art wasn’t super amazing, I did notice that I didn’t think about any of the men I’d been talking to online or even about my ex. They were not important. And it’s starting to confirm for me that if I get into something that I’m passionate about, these men don’t even enter. At the same time while I’m doing these passionate things I can sense myself growing – like my mind and curiosity and feeling just expands.



  60.  #60Zia on November 21, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    Have been off the forum for a little while, I feel like I’m all full up on relationship related “bettering myself”. I’m not dating but am setting little tasks for myself – going to meet up groups both for singles and just for general activities I enjoy. Going somewhere on my own and ordering a drink and sitting there and being open just to see what happens.

    The bit where I’ve been stuck recently is when I have nothing to do or not working on “self improvement” I find that what fills that “space” in my mind, my emotional space, is thoughts of my ex, purely because there’s no one else in my life who I have any attraction for. And what I’ve been doing there, is that whenever those thoughts pop up (and even when they don’t), I switch it around to imagining that my husband is in my life now. I imagine how it would feel to have him making me breakfast or dinner in the kitchen. Or washing the dishes for me. Or rubbing my back after a tiring day. Or taking my dog for a walk. Of playing with my son. Of how handsome he is and how loved I feel by him and how cared for and safe and secure I feel around him. And every time I do this, I feel this sensation of feeling full up, and I smile, and I feel warm, and it feels so good. And actually, just by doing this I can notice the stark contrast in thinking of my ex and the “lack” of not having him or someone in my life and how bad that feels and it makes it easier and easier to imagine him there.

    Thats my little bit of ramble for the day.



  61.  #61Syreena on November 22, 2013 at 1:42 am

    Post 45.

    I don’t need to KNOW the man in order to KNOW if his words were of a leader or tyrant.

    The words he used were issued along the lines of direct ORDER and OBEY. Someone who wants all the control.

    Some people get confused between leader and follower and order and obey.

    Leaders and followers propose and respond.

    So a leaders words will be ones which make a proposition for a follower to respond to. Not to issue a controlling direct order such as ” DO NOT ASK THE WAITRESS TO TURN THE MUSIC DOWN.”



  62.  #62Femininewoman on November 22, 2013 at 2:09 am

    Yayy Veronica.



  63.  #63Sirenity on November 22, 2013 at 3:13 am

    I feel the same as the Sirens here who do not agree with shutting up and giving over control..not to a guy like this. I was married to one for 16 years.

    He was shut down , silent, moody, withdrew frequently with no reason or explanation. To state that the solution to this would be to curb my own personality, silence my heart and do what he does feels very bad bad bad to me. I do not believe that asking him to order in restaurants would have given me the relationship i want. he never took me to restaurants ..he left me alone night after night when he went to his cave. This was the most toxic sad, desperate punishing place for me to be , year after year. And i was very damaged.

    i lost the light sparkly girlish me about the time he started to sleep in another room . He would speak to me JUST like this example.

    Never again.



  64.  #64April Rose on November 22, 2013 at 4:33 am

    Just read a hilarious (and scarey) article in which I recognised myself. Tragedy and comedy all in one.

    It’s called the 14 Habits of Highly Miserable People (How to succeed at self-sabotage)

    http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/14-habits-highly-miserable-people?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark



  65.  #65Luzydel on November 22, 2013 at 4:48 am

    I didn’t feel good reading this…

    First, the man has other issues that most likely have nothing to do with her behavior. He feels uncomfortable or inadequate and that is his issue.
    A woman should be able to speak up for her self.
    I agree that when he start acting like a child, stop asking him question about how he is doing, it is annoying.

    I used to be the woman RR says she should be; quiet, let him be “the man” blabla… I got used and abused. Sometimes having healthy boundaries means we have to open our mouths, say what we need to say. Speak the truth.

    I may be confused with RR advice, but it feels like she is saying that if a woman

    “Just keep your mouth shut, delight in EVERYTHING, smile, ask for HELP whenever you don’t know what to do or where to go, and do not allow yourself to be bothered by ANYTHING!” a relationship will work… and I feel Yuck about it… This is not the only option to be with a man; I really hope it isn’t because I may have to get some cats and a bigger TV 😉

    I want to be able to let a man be a man, but I am going to express my feelings… and take care of myself…



  66.  #66Frannie on November 22, 2013 at 5:04 am

    Good Morning Sirens! I have been following Rori’s blogs and reading her eLetters for a while now. I still have a hard time with some of the tools, but am trying. I know I should be leaning back when it comes to my ex, but I’m finding it very difficult these days.

    I’m a single mom with a 3 year old son. My son’s father is not in the picture at all. I was seeing someone for almost a year. He was a great guy, except he had a serious drinking problem. He’s been trying to get help, and has been sober for 17 days now. I know it’s going to take some serious time for him to get well, but that doesn’t make me miss him any less.

    I know I need to be leaning back and focusing on myself and my son. I miss my ex so much! We’ve been in contact (through facebook messages only), and haven’t seen each other in over a week. I am feeling so sad and lonely, and miss him so much. I really want to see him, but don’t know what to do.

    My question to all of you is, is it ok for me to contact him and let him know (through feeling messages) that I miss him and that it would feel nice to see him? Or do I just continue to lean back and hope that he misses me too and wants to see me?

    Thanks everyone and have an awesome day / weekend!
    Frannie



  67.  #67Femininewoman on November 22, 2013 at 5:53 am

    Hi Frannie. I am wondering about the breakup. What was it like and who initiated it.



  68.  #68kyla on November 22, 2013 at 6:37 am

    I feel turned off reading this post and this man brings to mind my ex husband. I also feel guilty too, ick! I used to be that girl and briught a whole lot of pain into my life. Playing sweet and caring when I was feeling shaky and sad inside and then feeling even more afraid when the man reacted with coldness or more anger so I played even sweeter! Ick! Round and around we’d go until the relationship reached abusive levels and I had no self esteem and I couldn’t look at him without shuddering. Didn’t work for me. I wasn’t authentic and it just amplified the negative traits he already possessed.

    I feel icky about the advice too but I then I wouldn’t complain to the waitress when I’m being treated to a dinner by a man, I can see why that would be upsetting. I think I would share my feelings for sure. My new circle is feeling and sharing and “being surprised” and feeling and sharing again.. I can take care of me when he’s not around and I get to decide if I want him around next time he offers!



  69.  #69kyla on November 22, 2013 at 6:46 am

    I miss R but I feel stronger and real proud of myself for letting him go and putting my heart first.

    I am trying to get into the whole online dating thing but I feel bored when I check my emails and there’s guy after guy saying “hi nice profile we should chat”. Ugh then the chat is dull and they don’t really ask questions so I’m left staring at the screen searching for a reason to write back to them. I guess I need lots and lots of practice. I feel sad.



  70.  #70T-Girl on November 22, 2013 at 7:52 am

    I totally get what Rori is saying. I love letting my man be the man and order for me, open the doors for me, communicate with the waitress for me. But in NO WAY am I a doormat. I think somehow we just found the dynamic that fits. I am able to communicate my wants and don’t wants yet still be the “girl”. I can’t quite put my finger on why…it all just seemed to fall into place.



  71.  #71April Rose on November 22, 2013 at 8:28 am

    Yay T-Girl 🙂



  72.  #72Shar Lean Way Back on November 22, 2013 at 8:36 am

    Veronica, that sounds great !
    If you talk to him again, for practice, maybe tell him how you “lost yourself” in the art and maybe even you feel turned off when I man doesn’t show interest.

    T-Girl 🙂 love being treated like a girl.

    FW- I wish I could find the words you do to express what I “see”. If you love yourself and your experimenting with how to be, how this feels to let a man lead, then there is no worry that you are being a doormat. Pamela isn’t there yet nor is she ready to let go of this man, if that is what she needs to do. My hope is for her confidence to sore and it has nothing to do with the him no matter how he is.



  73.  #73Lisa on November 22, 2013 at 8:42 am

    @Tereana <3

    @ Millie Yay sounds nice… <3 new territory

    @Mercedes yes, me too!

    I can't shrink down – I have in the past and it makes me unhappy. I could however say "honey, this music is very loud for me" if he didn't ask the waitress then I would do so…

    For me it has worked that I would speak up when the wrong food was brought for me, and if that didn't work my man would then take care of it for me…. that feels good to me…

    I got flowers again last night and a beautiful card… he has already had the STD test for me– this man is stepping up… and called when he was going to be late… there is no frustration with this one…

    I'm feeling weird though… and I know it is b/c of all the attention he is giving me…. I've wanted it my whole life this kind of communication and openness and affection….. and I feel weird… part of me wanted to run last night b/c I had this thought "is he masculine enough for me"… and then I realized that my idea of masculine was reserved and emotionally withdrawn and macho, arrogant, and that maybe I should give it more time before I decide and also maybe I might want to re-visit my idea of masculine…

    He took over last night to get firewood for the marshmallow roast and that felt good, I didn't even have to open my mouth… he just noticed I was frazzled and he did it…

    He respects my body so much …….

    I still feel weird… not sure…..

    He is falling for me, and I'm really working on not making that my responsibility… and to focus on what I'm feeling …… keeping my mind out of the way…

    and "M" keeps popping up in my mind and I'm trying so hard to pop him right back out… da&^n this is hard I can relate to what @Indigo said ……about I had already given myself to ever after with "M" and that was it in my mind and heart ( I'd thought sexually he was the one I'd be with ) and now working on moving out of that and being able to be sexual with another man… and yet when we have talked about sex – it seems we are so much more compatible and our frequency is the same etc… there won't be any drama over 2 times a week or 3 times a week… matter of fact, it appears I might be pushing this one away some… that feels good…

    In reality I think it is much better than having a man try and make me feel bad b/c I want sex more times a week than he does….

    then again, we haven't even had sex yet, so this all might be a mute point…. I have to wait and see how it feels once we do… it might just look good on paper…

    on a side note: I'm not a follower, never have been and I filter out what feels right for me… and so following someone's instructions is fine as long as it goes with what feels what is right for me… and I realize that my independence and strength to be this way, puts me in the "outside" of groups. It's human behavior to push those out that don't follow the leader… and I'm fine with that…

    OXOXO



  74.  #74Veronica on November 22, 2013 at 8:52 am

    Long distance for years and he’s still seeing her – that’s something. I mean it’s years and he still came to her town for her friend’s wedding.

    And then it’s as though she were pre-empting his attempts to be masculine which I believe is exacerbated by the distance and not seeing each other that often, just my opinion though.

    So for me I thought Rori was saying – you’re so in this man’s business that he can’t get a sense of what you want, enjoy and so he’s stuck with not knowing how to please you. And it sounds like he just wants to please her. It’s like he can’t be her boyfriend even when they’re in contact or together and that feels frustrating just to imagine it.

    That interdependence thing is tricky to do in long distance when it feels like one has to switch it on when in contact or together and then go back to independence when that distance happens.



  75.  #75Veronica on November 22, 2013 at 9:00 am

    FW – 61 – Thank you : )

    Shar Lean Way Back – 71 – Thank you. I didn’t even think of doing that – sharing with him my experience of the artworks. It would be good practice to say in feeling messages how turned off I felt. That would so keep my focus on me.



  76.  #76Femininewoman on November 22, 2013 at 9:13 am

    Yayy T-Girl. I see that kind of thing in action with a friend of mine and I can say that she has unbelievable power in that relationship. I have seen her keep that man waiting beyond I would be even willing to tolerate and I have also seen him given her so much latitude to do whatever she wants. When we were in a professional meeting and she was not speaking, he spoke up for her and indicated to the group he knew the reason why she was not speaking and then told us.

    It seems to me that most of us are so pre-programmed to see the negative side of things that it preempts us from even be open to trying stuff just out of curiosity. We already know so we raise our sceptre like Zeus and declare “I will not” because I know. So sad.

    I only hope that Pamela doesn’t feel put off by reading some of what is written here. She is obviously with that man for her own reasons. It seems Rori’s “who’s been AMAZING keeping together and moving forward a genuine relationship” meant nothing.



  77.  #77Femininewoman on November 22, 2013 at 9:16 am

    Yep. You are only a doormat in your own eyes so I never use that expression to say anything about myself or think of myself in those terms. No matter what is happening.



  78.  #78Dominique on November 22, 2013 at 9:16 am

    Frannie – You have nothing to lose at this point. I would suggest keeping your words short and simple. For example – I miss you. I miss seeing you.

    You have to be prepared though for the possibility of a no.

    xxoo



  79.  #79Frannie on November 22, 2013 at 9:38 am

    FW – thanks for responding to me. It was sort of a mutual breakup because of all the crap that had been going on between us (mostly related to his drinking). I’m starting to think that I miss him more then he misses me, but I’m not sure since I haven’t really talked to him (and by talk to him I mean Facebook message…he doesn’t talk on the phone). Once in a while he messages me to see how my day was, but never mentions seeing me or anything. I know he’s focused in his recovery but I just miss him so much!! I really want to see him. I know I should be leaning back, but I’m afraid if I don’t initiate some type of contact that I’ll lose touch with him altogether. 🙁

    Help please! What should I do? I love this man and want to be with him for the long term…I’m hoping his recovery is going well and he wants to see me soon. I feel so down 🙁



  80.  #80CurvySiren10 on November 22, 2013 at 9:50 am

    I think there’s a HUGE difference in enjoying being treated like a girl and letting a man ‘lead’ …and ‘keeping your mouth shut’ and not being ‘allowed’ to express what’s bothering you.

    This screams in-authenticity to me. If something is bothering you, it’s bothering you. “Not allowing” it means suppressing your real feelings and my experience has always been that this leads to trouble in a relationship.



  81.  #81Indigo on November 22, 2013 at 10:02 am

    Sirenity 62,

    I feel especially sad for the woman you were during that time because I can relate to it so much.

    I think something to bear in mind with the above post is that Rori says right upfront, this is a very difficult man.

    Very difficult men don’t tend to like women freely expressing their opinions and exerting their will… they tend to like to have their own way. Pamela has chosen to be with this man over a number of years, and so Rori’s advice is quite valid if she wants this man. With very difficult men you do have to learn to be a bit of a peacekeeper and to go with what they want and need, if you want to stay with them.



  82.  #82Indigo on November 22, 2013 at 10:07 am

    CurvySiren,

    I agree with what you’ve expressed about inauthenticity relating to this post.

    With a difficult man such as the one in this post, you do tend to have to play demure and hold your tongue quite a lot and “go along to get along”, and that’s all very well, but the day will come when I believe you just can’t keep your mouth shut any longer. When something is too important to you, or has been building for too long.

    I could never suppress myself to this degree. I don’t need to speak up about everything, and I certainly don’t ask to be right, but freedom to be myself is something that I need in a relationship. I simply couldn’t be in a relationship quite like Rori is suggesting here. I think I would like to be able to gently and politely ask the waitress if they can turn the music down a little without fear of repercussions.



  83.  #83Indigo on November 22, 2013 at 10:25 am

    Feminine Woman 75,

    You raise a very interesting point, and it’s definitely something I thought about and alluded to above.

    She’s been with this man for a long time, and she feels the relationship is going somewhere, and most importantly, this is where she WANTS to be.

    We cannot really know the true nature of their relationship or the two people in it, as all we have to go on is this blog post.

    Personally, I think there’s so much experimenting and growing and learning and healing that has to happen for most of us, before we find the situation we are most happy in. For me, I don’t think I could ever take Rori’s advice in the post to the extreme, but it’s something I could experiment with here and there.



  84.  #84Femininewoman on November 22, 2013 at 10:25 am

    Frannie did you see Dominique’s response in 77?



  85.  #85Turquoise on November 22, 2013 at 11:21 am

    This is where my problem lies with this article:

    Okay – hey, I know we’re “past” this. We’re feminists, we’re independent, we can take care of ourselves – who wants to give a man the power to ORDER ANYTHING for us!!

    Well – Back to the bottom line here: No one said we have to be married.

    No one said we have to be in a relationship.

    Or in a relationship with a man.

    ******So – you either go with what the man you want needs and wants – or you give up that man.*****

    Notice I’m not saying: “You do everything a man wants you to do…”

    You always have “veto” power. You can always say “NO.” You can always express your feelings.

    I AM saying: You cannot just act like you’re alone, taking care of yourself, or out with your girlfriends, or at work.

    You can’t squeeze the man out of the picture.

    **** There really are no other options.*****

    So there are no other options than to be with a man who gets everything his way, and we behave “femininely”

    I do not feel that being feminine has anything to do with being a doormat or allowing a man to have everything exactly the way he wants. IF that is what it takes, then I really am not interested.

    I’m fine with letting him be the hero and listening and leaning back and asking them for help. I am not fine with it sounding as if there is no compromise or meeting in the middle.



  86.  #86Turquoise on November 22, 2013 at 11:36 am

    I guess my first reaction was feeling, why wouldn’t Rori be telling her to move on from this guy or at least to love herself, CD and share that at the least that she doesn’t want to be spoken to that way.

    It feels like knowing someone is being abused and telling them to “be good” so that doesn’t happen again. As if it’s her fault. That feels really awful to me.

    Maybe she does want this “difficult” man…. but sometimes we want what isn’t good for us. Sometimes we have to love OURSELVES MORE, and walk away.



  87.  #87Indigo on November 22, 2013 at 11:48 am

    The other thing I guess which was a bit of a trigger point for me about this post is… I am an independent woman. Always have been. Now I feel that I am a soft, feminine version of independent… I’m gentle and softly spoken, most definitely not brash and tough. But, I know what I like and what I don’t like, I need my space as a very, very important need, and I’m self-sufficient… always have been, always will be. I need someone who is ok with and may even like these parts of me, because they’re not going away.

    I have to believe that there are men who are as turned on by my independence as I am turned on by independence in others, otherwise I am in for a lonely life, and I just don’t believe that!



  88.  #88Mercedes on November 22, 2013 at 11:49 am

    T-Girl: Re 69. Me too! It’s a balance. But what that means (at least for me) is that none of this applies:

    “So – just be a demure girl and don’t take ANYTHING INTO YOUR OWN HANDS.” “Just keep your mouth shut”and “do not allow yourself to be bothered by ANYTHING!”

    I understand I took those things out of context, but those are the things that do not sit well with me on the advice scale. For J and I, it is a balance and I’ve never been one to “shut up” in order to create that balance. 🙂

    Much Love,
    Mercedes



  89.  #89MovingMagic on November 22, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    This article is pretty advanced work. ..I agree with that. Rori lays it all out here. The writer has choices. Three of them if you ask me. She can stay and be the woman he seems to desire. She can leave. She can date many men. This sets her up to do the inner work necessary to find HER answer.
    Amazing! !!



  90.  #90Syreena on November 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    Feels bad to me.

    Where is Pamelas power if she doesn’t want to be spoken to like that.
    Why didn’t she speak up and walk away?

    I notice Rori did say be a demure girl until you can just be yourself Mercedes. You are confident enough to just be yourself.

    So perhaps that’s it. She finally has enough and starts being her true self. And realising he isn’t the right man and leaving, not wanting him.
    Rather than twisting into a pretzel for him.

    The only problem I have is if Pamela is very vulnerable and stars twisting into a Pretzal and hands over control of herself to a controlling man it is a slippery slope which could son spriral down into a dangerous abusive relationship based on power and control where she has handed all the power and control over to him.

    The playing the demure little girl on the outside really only works if the demure little girl has extremly strong boundaries that she doesn’t waiver from for one moment cause the moment she does is the moment it goes down hill. As the pattern is then the break down boundary by boundary until the self is destroyed and no longer there and the woman has been moulded into a docile shell of what she was like a stepford wife obeying the man. Very dangerous place to be.

    Plenty of men out there like that and women who end up not being able to get away from them very easily.

    The right man for her wouldn’t be bothered about her asking the waitress he would think it was great.



  91.  #91Sophie on November 22, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    I was wondering if Sam was cross about the music turning down thing was because he felt criticised and that he ‘hadn’t made a good choice’…that’s the way I saw I (from my perspective of being involved with highly sensitive and easily shamed men)

    I kind of get what Rori’s saying … I kind of get what everyone else is saying too … it does feel good to be able to lean back and hand a man the opportunity to ‘do’ for me even if its ask someone to turn the music down and I like how a man looks when he’s given this opportunity and is all pleased… i don’t like being told off though…but back to understanding Rori – I know with CDB recently, the more opportunity I give him to ‘do for me’ the better he feels about himself and it gets easier and easier – we’re both happier and I could see how I could work on that more – a lot of ‘it’d feel great if you could do that for me…it’d feel great if it was a little quieter in here…” and I don’t think I’d feel doormatty . I think I’d feel as the article says influential in a different way annnd I think I could enjoy it …

    Franny – I feel anxious saying this because I don’t know you or your story or your relationship or the man you’re talking about or anything and my story is just my story but when I recovered from serious drinking 8 years ago I was more vulnerable those first few months than ever before in my life, I literally felt like I was ripped open and spilling out and i absolutely had to put myself first one day at a time otherwise I would have drank and I knew more than anything I didnt want to – I couldnt allow anything to tip me off balance and my emotions were alllllll over the place…I guess I’m saying this because I hope that you keep looking after you – us recovery peeps are not the easiest 🙂 xxxx



  92.  #92Sophie on November 22, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    April Rose – what a great article! mmmmm I can definitely tick the boxes of a number of those x Ive saved it to study and commit to memory 🙂



  93.  #93T-Girl on November 22, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    I had to go back and read the article again to see what I may have been missing because of the varying opinions. Then I read this:

    “Notice I’m not saying: “You do everything a man wants you to do…”

    You always have “veto” power. You can always say “NO.” You can always express your feelings.”

    This, I believe, is where the balance comes in. The way you veto or express your feelings makes the difference between demure girl, doormat, masculine energy, etc. Yes, I can see where the “just keep your mouth shut” comment rubs the wrong way and appears to be advising us to be doormats until you read further.



  94.  #94Syreena on November 22, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    Something else that stands out for me is Rori says.

    You can always say NO.

    Problem is Girls and women aren’t taught this, we are taught to be ‘nice’ and not etc etc.
    And boys are not taught that when a girl or woman says No, Or No don’t want to do that and it’s the end of the conversation not the beginning of a negotiation.

    They are taught that if a man says No that it means No but not when a woman and a girl says it.



  95.  #95T-Girl on November 22, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    Sophie – I am so happy to read that you were able to recover from a serious drinking problem! That gives me some hope – my mother is an alcoholic and has been battling her addiction for so long. Most times I just give up hope and it is so hard. She is in recovery again now, and I hope and pray that it lasts this time. But I get hurt over and over and over again. So I am so happy for you 🙂

    Franny, your guy must be going through the most difficult time of his life right now. I think he will reach out more when he is able. Maybe you can go to some Alanon meetings?



  96.  #96T-Girl on November 22, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    93 Syreena – I have to say that I don’t agree with this at all as it has not been my experience. If you have a man that wants to make you happy, he hears the No.



  97.  #97Syreena on November 22, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Some men believe they can talk to and treat a woman any way they want without any repercussions.



  98.  #98Syreena on November 22, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    I feel happy that has not been your experience T girl. Sadly that has not been many womens experience.
    That is who I am talking about. Only have to look at the figures on rape and Domestic abuse, from intimate partners stalking etc to see that.



  99.  #99Liquid Light on November 22, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    yeah, Syreena, I know what you mean. My last guy didn’t hear me when I said No. Re. sex, spending time with him, etc. He was really pushy. I don’t want to be involved with someone like that again. It really took its toll on me. But then he was always taking me to do fun things, trips, great meals, etc. so I was really torn with him.



  100.  #100Linda on November 22, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Hey you know what? Thats right !… We all have choices we can make. My trouble is I cant seem to make one and have peace with any of them. I keep looking deep in my heart to find my answers. The “follow your heart not your head” thing is failing me.

    I feel in a pressure cooker and so irritated that I could bite the head off a snake one minute, scream, kick, punch the next.

    FavoriteCD and I talked today after I received a text that said..”Do you have plans to see me this week end..we need to talk”….and I felt sooo mad that I could hardly keep my composure at my desk. He has felt easy until today. I listened to what he had to say.. I said I was feeling very stressed from work and talking thru 3 hours of hard stuff with one of my daughters last night…and emotionally spent. Instead of offering any softness or understanding…. He said…Hey I have stress too and proceeded to list that spring boarded into and other negative things. When he was done. I said. “I simply was trying to tell you how I feel today and I got nothing… I am spent… and instead of feeling heard I felt it was all minimized and discounted . I need to go back to work now…. I got a phone call in less than 5 minutes with an apology for his being harsh and that is not what how he intended the conversation to go. I want to be that soft place for you to come to and I wasn’t… and I hope I see you tonight..”I love you”.

    hmmm… okay…. I felt defused but not at ease or safe. and this does not make the decisions I am trying to make any any easier…
    NOW add in….

    The new person they brought in to be my co-worker gets on my very last nerve! She is NOT a fit for the position and after 3 weeks I feel soooo irritated and unkind even border line hostile toward her. She piddles and it takes her 1 hour to do what it should only take 15 min. Geeeeze.

    WHen I left work today I thought I was gonna explode. I wanted to talk to someone but dont have anyone to go to. I am feeling so much pressure I literally was trembling inside.

    All I want to do is feel peace in am simply not able to find any. I have fret and stewed over what I should do. THe holidays and expectations….

    NOW there is one reallllly good thing. Even though it was hard… I had a heart to heart with my youngest daughter and today she is not changed toward me. THAT is AMAZING!

    THere is a riff in my near future.

    I am trying



  101.  #101Sophie on November 22, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Ah T Girl that must be so so so hard for you I pray for you and your mum xx I was lucky my absolute stubborness and strong will served me well a complete blessing of character – I held onto hope a lot and when I didnt have hope I had support xx I know some people too that get a lot from Alanon im very grateful it exists xx

    back to post 🙂 I think there’s the balance too – I am strong and independent and intelligent and have very strong opinions about everything and that’s not going to change and i’m not going to tone it down – its passion! and men have always enjoyed that too so that’s good – for me its more about that switching hats thing that maybe there are many times when I can be much more in the feminine and just let the man ‘do’ for me..



  102.  #102Sophie on November 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    ((((Linda)))) you sound like you need like a break – can you take a holiday by yourself? 🙂 I’m being advicey – I apologise 🙂 I know how I feel when it gets like that and often if I can I just take some time away somewhere just to be by myself and regroup – no phone maybe just a journal….

    taking time from work and going somewhere feels symbolic to me too of taking my power back over my life

    but thats me I often feel overwhelmed by life and its demands and I like it when I can just ‘stop it all’ for a bit – even a day walking by the sea – make some space for me



  103.  #103Linda on November 22, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    In the midst of my day.. with FavoriteCD (I really should rename him cause he it doesnt fit anymore)..ha I felt a small victory for ME.

    I totally did not get rabbit trailed by stuff he said to me. I stayed true to me and my feelings and communicated them! yeah! . I said clearly stated my feelings and shut down the conversation… something that Andrea has posted about before. (it worked so well) yes! I felt authentic to my core at that moment.. his later response he must have “got it”…I said my NO… Kinda reminds me of the part in the movie “O Brother Where Art Thou”… when the woman who was the wife of George Clooney in the movie said..”.I have said my piece and counted to three”! tee hee… love it!



  104.  #104Linda on November 22, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    Sophie… hugs to to you!!!! LIGHT bulb moment here for me!

    I need to take my power back. Honestly I have been feeling bullied and some if it coming from ME!… hmmm

    My daughter said “Mom you are putting so much pressure on yourself.. you dont have to make all these decisions right now. Why are you trying?”

    Ok.. so tonight. I am taking this night for me. Regrouping. glass of wine. movie and my dog and blanket. It feels good and I am not gonna let myself or anybody push me right now. “Deep breath”



  105.  #105Sophie on November 22, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    yay Linda!!! I recognise that in myself too! that i make all the feelings of pressure and demand even more by adding loads of pressure and demand from myself to the mix x

    yay to giving myself permission to just chilllll ooouuuttt 🙂 x yay to giving myself permission to just stop thinking and worrying and struggling x yay to just letting everyone and everything wait 🙂 x blanket and dog sounds lovely xxxx



  106.  #106Violette on November 22, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    I’ve been planning a move. Today it hit me if I could find happiness with a man I wouldn’t maybe want to move…that I don’t want to move! I don’t know, but it feels awful to have that kind of pressure on finding someone.

    I feel sick because I haven’t met anyone to date in like 10 months, even when I’ve been trying. I was doing so well there for a minute, and sometimes men do gallant things for me and I feel it’s because of my vibe. But I’m miserable without dates…I don’t know what’s wrong with me.

    I’ve been wanting to call an old CD who was really sweet but had impotence issues, and explore a friendship with him. I just question if my reasons are really in order. Is it really about me still wanting him and wanting him to change, because then I’d have love and wouldn’t have to move?



  107.  #107Lisa on November 22, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    @Turquoise 85 right on! I totally know, I had to walk away from difficult men… b/c it wasn’t loving to me to stay… and I have to come first.

    @Sophie <3 awesome for you! I'm so glad that isn't going to change! I'm that way too…

    @Indigo… <3 I believe there are men out there that like that and actually find it hot! I'm dating one now… I believe you will find lots of men that adore that about you…

    @Linda….. {{{ hugs }}}

    about the post: I think that most all dating coaches agree that BEING YOURSELF is the most important thing…with men… so if they detect that we are keeping our mouth shut to appease them we will come across false… and certainly in my experience they love it when we say what we mean and stand our ground… I believe that can be done every bit as feminine as a demure woman – with the right man. Key point..

    I believe it is about balance also – in keeping with who I am and still allowing my man to be totally masculine…

    independence to me isn't the lack of needing help from someone… so I feel i can be independent and allow my man to do for me also… but that is just me… my belief…

    Today was stay in my pj's all day, nurture me and get work done which makes me feel good…. I haven't left the house all day… taking care of me, seems to be working out great with men…

    OXOXOX



  108.  #108Liquid Light on November 22, 2013 at 4:36 pm

    Violette 105

    (((((hugs))))))

    For what its worth, I moved (at least partially) because I knew the odds were much better for me to find love here. I lived in a really small town before so there just weren’t that many available men there.

    So I do think its valid to factor that in to a decision about moving or not. Not sure if that helps though?



  109.  #109Luzydel on November 22, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    Also; here RR is assuming the the man’s anger/frustration is due to the lack of power he has over her and that he may feel emasculated. But Pam has not gotten a chance to explore what his real issue is.
    Maybe it has nothing to do with her telling the waitress to lower the music (and honestly what kind of mature grown up man get his panties all twisted for something like this?).

    Sometimes men can be good men, but that doesn’t mean they can have a good relationship with you. What happened to using feeling messages? stepping back, saying what we want?

    Well, I will only take what applies to me from here; I do not feel this is a on size fits all advice. I have found most of myself since I came here in 2010, but I do not have to agree with everything.

    Not all men are one size fits all either…



  110.  #110Tereana on November 22, 2013 at 5:31 pm

    I know this guy is not good for me. I know this guy is not good for me. I know this guy is not good for me. Ha! That’s my mantra, right now.

    Of course, I did tell him, early on, that he *was* good for me (and I meant it, then. It was true). But long term, how can he be? If he has more cash, he might want to be my sugar daddy. But compensating me and generosity are not the only parts of a relationship. It’s better that what he had to offer was really just his presence and companionship. That was much better.

    And I know he’s not right, because I keep thinking about him. I had texted him a bunch last week. Now I’ve decided to wait for him to contact me. And he will. I know I’m having this feeling based on no sort of reality. It’s just… Hm. I guess I can see his point about having someone in his life adding to it, even if he doesn’t want it permanently. I know because it adds something to my life, too, whether it’s permanent or not. I feel grateful to have been with him.

    AND, I wanted to share my cool “aha” moment of turning my energy around : )

    At one point, I was feeling bad about him not texting me in several days, and then I stopped. I caught the thought as I had it, and I thought instead, “I feel excited for when he *will* contact me.” Just writing that and thinking that again makes me smile.

    Meanwhile, there are so many good men in the world. A whole, veritable feast of them; a smorgasbord of hot, intelligent, trustworthy, successful, spiritual, relationship-oriented men. They are attracted to me, simply because I am a woman. And this means… I get to choose. And choose wisely 🙂



  111.  #111Tereana on November 22, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    Luzudel 108 – hear, hear!

    I agree that it’s not all “one-size-fits all” advice. Or that, for me, it may fit all sizes, but may not be complete enough to cover every person or every situation. As with any expert, it’s good to take the advice with a grain of salt and trust yourself more. You’re the one who knows yourself, and your life, best!

    🙂



  112.  #112Liquid Light on November 22, 2013 at 5:42 pm

    I think this post is about trying something different since the ways Pamela typically behaves/reacts haven’t been working for her. I think that’s largely what RR’s work is about. Trying new things to get us out of our old patterns that don’t work for us but that we keep repeating.

    Another thing that came up for me is I don’t want a feminine man. And sometimes that might mean him being too masculine but I’d say that’s better than him being too feminine.



  113.  #113Liquid Light on November 22, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    I have a date tomorrow that I’m excited about. We’ve met twice before, once at speed dating and once at another Match mixer. He gave me a ride back to my office after the mixer which was really nice. He seems quite masculine and also very smart. I’m excited and a bit nervous too. 🙂



  114.  #114LM on November 22, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    This post is quite interesting, as are your responses About a month ago, I had my final break up with my most recent (and LAST) “difficult man”. I’m starting to understand what Rori says. I could continue to choose to live as “less than” ME, and be with a difficult man or I can choose to say “no thanks” and move on. I’ve chosen to be single. Probably forever, which is FINE BY ME! I’ve never had peace about being without a relationship before, but I don’t care if I never ever even speak to another man again (my father and brother not withstanding). I came here tonight to share some insights, though, and this post kind of goes along with what I’ve noticed.

    1) I have a “friend” who is a woman who is dating and meeting men. We have similar issues (we are both single mothers, each with a young daughter). During our conversations about her love life, I have noticed that she is WAY leaning forward and actually “throwing” herself at men, writing them long sexy emails and then, wondering why they lose interest in her right away. Giving them sexual favors on the second meeting (on her sofa), and then, wondering why the guy isn’t proclaiming deep abiding love for her. I don’t intend this to be a judgement of her, just an observation of how LIKE HER I used to be, and how, now that I’ve learned Rori’s tools, I am noticing “leaning forward” behavior in women everywhere I turn, from music videos, facebook posts, friend’s habits, even the Opera “Tosca!” It’s amazing how I keep telling women I meet: “You gotta check out Rori Raye! She has changed my life forever!” I have to tell them I am not a paid representative!

    2) My 11-year-old daughter and I watched “My Fair Lady” tonight. Boy, did I need to see that! I remember seeing it as a child. But I shoulda watched it annually since then. Some of the songs are PRICELESS! I especially love the song “Show Me” which is what I challenged the latest “Mr. Difficult” to do. He couldn’t, at least, not on a grand scale. I called him “The King of Empty Promises” when I wrote about him in my journal. I think that the movie was a great example of a woman sticking up for herself and being willing to walk away, but also a picture of how MEN will be MEN and WOMEN will be WOMEN and sometimes, we just have to decide to get along. or NOT. And THAT is the beauty of it. It wasn’t until I allowed myself the freedom to say “no” to being with a certain man that I was afforded the freedom to say “yes” to being with him (and everything that came with that decision).



  115.  #115Andrea on November 22, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    I met a new man through Match.Com. He works very close to where I live. After much going back and forth and many dry spells where we had no contact at all…. I happened to have a meeting one morning in the place where he works and he happened to see me breeze through the building with my briefcase and sunglasses on, laughing about not finding the right conference room, and, cool as you please.. sexy mama ease.. make my way into the meeting.

    So finally he texted me and asked me when he could call. Then he finally called. sheeeeesh…. took him long enough.

    But here was a frustrating point.. and this post is helping me through it: He called and we chit chat for a little bit. He said, “I’d really like to get to know you better.”
    I said, “That would feel great. I’d like that too.”
    silence……..

    okay……

    Finally I said, “Uhm… I feel really good when a man asks me out on a date.”
    He said, “Well, I don’t usually go out at nights because I work early in the morning. But you could always just pop over to my office. I’m usually here alone and I’m the boss, so no one can tell me it’s not okay for you to be there. haha”

    Ummmm… nooooooo….

    I said, “Well, I just bet that you’re creative enough to come up with some way to ask me out on a date. I’ll just wait for you to do that.”

    He agreed and said he would. Now he keeps trying to run conversations in chat on facebook or email that are mundane every day conversations. Today he wrote, “I’m still trying to find a great date for you and I. I want it to be relaxed and nice so we can really get to know each other with out any pressure.”

    And that’s all he said. I’m like… (in my head)
    Okay.. but there’s Evita the Musical playing at the University. And there’s a new movie out I’d love to see. And there’s live music tonight down town. And there’s a wonderful wine tasting venue on Saturday. And there’s this new restaurant that just opened that everyone is raving about… Then I get frustrated and I think WTF!!!! But he’s still trying to find something that we can go to… Argh!

    But I’m actually sitting on my hands here. I WILL NOT suggest a place, nor a time, nor a day. I will not try and push this, nor push him away.

    He is not the only man on this planet, nor is he my only means of going out for a nice time any day or night of the week.

    And every man is NOT like him. I just happened to attract this one into my atmosphere.

    So I just replied back to him. “I really feel anticipation and happiness about that. I’m feeling wonderful knowing that you are working on coming up with something.”

    IN my mind though I’m thinking… “Idiot!” But that’s not how I really feel. I feel frustrated, yes, and that I want to force something.. speak my mind.. make him bend to my will… either piss or get off the pot..
    But I feel like deep long breathing, and learning patience, and practicing the art of letting him do what he will do and in the mean while I will be fine. And because I’m going through this thing with this man, I don’t feel that anxious restlessness when another man who I met on Wednesday has not called me again, and another one who flirted with me and I seemed hopeful about has not made movements toward me either.
    I get to practice just letting them all be .. out there somewhere.. and I’m HERE and this is ME… and I’m fine, just fine with reading my book, and writing in my blogs and journals, drinking a glass of wine, and taking myself to the musical, and going with a bunch of my girlfriends to the wine tasting.

    And when this man does come up with something (whether it is great or not) I’ll be willing and able to not let anything bother me, cause I’ll know deep down that what ever I expect from him, I can create for myself. So what ever I actually get from him… is really creme de la creme.. and I can be ever so appreciative of it. With big smiles and sexy blue eyes blinking at him in amazement. : )



  116.  #116Linda G on November 22, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    I think a key element of Rori’s advice here, is that the man is high on the toxic scale. This is where, if you want this man, you have to ease your way around him, decide if giving in on those things is worth your wanting him.
    I dated a toxic guy or a while, always retreating, making me uncomfortable, like in the post. Her guy blames her for not liking loudness.
    The way to detoxify a guy is to lean way way back, so his aggressive behaviors have no power.



  117.  #117Lisa on November 22, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    @Luzydel you crack me up… love how you gave me the visual… <3 🙂

    WOW "C" called tonight right as I was doing bedtime with my child… I didn't realize it was him. He just started off talking to me as if it hadn't been 2 weeks since he called… and told me about his biz.. than said I'll have to buy you a ticket to come see me.. humm we had the convo… I said I wouldn't do that until he came here… I felt weird… though I noticed I didn't say "I feel weird"… then I said, I'm putting my child to bed now is there another time we can talk? Then he abruptly said, call me anytime… and then hung up… oh well.. his problem… he just comes and goes and apparently isn't all that interested… and I have to say, I'm not interested in a man that does this game playing thing…

    Oh well… circle dating…

    tiny flag tonight with "S"… I'm going to re-visit it tomorrow…

    OXOXO



  118.  #118Lisa on November 22, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    @Luzydel you crack me up… love how you gave me the visual… <3 🙂

    WOW "C" called tonight right as I was doing bedtime with my child… I didn't realize it was him. He just started off talking to me as if it hadn't been 2 weeks since he called… and told me about his biz.. than said I'll have to buy you a ticket to come see me.. humm we had the convo… I said I wouldn't do that until he came here… I felt weird… though I noticed I didn't say "I feel weird"… then I said, I'm putting my child to bed now is there another time we can talk? Then he abruptly said, call me anytime… and then hung up… oh well.. his problem… he just comes and goes and apparently isn't all that interested… and I have to say, I'm not interested in a man that does this game playing thing…

    Oh well… circle dating…

    tiny flag tonight with "S"… I'm going to re-visit it tomorrow…

    OXOXO



  119.  #119Indigo on November 22, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    LM 114,

    I really resonated with what you said. I, too, for the first time in my life am ok with not having a relationship. I wouldn’t say I’m ok with it forever, but I’m ok with it until the “just right” man comes along. Someone made a reference yesterday to “when you have a new boyfriend” and I didn’t think “ooh, that would be nice”, instead my first thought was “I have no desire at this point to flit from one relationship to another until I feel strongly, I’d rather spend the time growing and being with myself.”

    I feel that this is right for me. My last relationship opened things wide open in me and shook many things loose. It is still pretty much a daily process of looking at things and choosing better thoughts, better actions, allowing my feelings and gentling them, finding joy despite the hurt, choosing what will value myself the most if I can, all the while resisting other urges. So, yeah, I’m fine with being alone for a while… and I believe my inner being will tell me when I’m able to venture forth tentatively emotionally. Sigh 🙂



  120.  #120Indigo on November 22, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    Linda G 116,

    Wow, thank you for this insight, that was somewhat of a lightbulb moment for me! 🙂



  121.  #121Daria on November 23, 2013 at 1:01 am

    so M man has resurfaced to make a cussing random comment on my FB… i feel thrown off a bit lol and surprised to see him there

    im also feeling fantastically good mood wise right now

    like i use to feel years ago



  122.  #122Daria on November 23, 2013 at 1:06 am

    i did not expect him to resurface, haven’t been thinking of him very much… wow!

    feels exciting and scary and a bit sad and thrilling see saw



  123.  #123daria on November 23, 2013 at 1:12 am

    Tereana – yeah the thing i read said that resting BBT is to be 98.6

    most people are lower, and so suffer an energy lag they don’t even realize

    thyroid tests wont show it, bec the problem is often not in the thyroid or the blood serum, but at the cellular uptake and feedback level

    when people supplemented with thyroid, they felt so much more energetic, happy and their body made huge changes in muscle/fat distribution among other things

    they book i read was called Hypothyroidism Type II

    it really blew me away… (the idea that MOST people are under thyroid at the cellular level, not just some. 99% of us. it’s really well explained)



  124.  #124Dinah on November 23, 2013 at 3:38 am

    Hi Sirens

    Just felt like sharing this…

    Last night I watched (again) Esther Perel’s amazing TED talk on the secret to desire in a long-term relationship. In it, she tells how one of the top answers she gets when asking people “When do you feel most drawn to your partner?” is “When they are in their element/doing something they are passionate about”, essentially when their energy is “Out the window”. You really should watch this talk, is amazing – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa0RUmGTCYY&feature=share&list=FL9Elz8kLU2rMYoyOgjuMPfQ&index=1

    Then today I see a photo on Instagram of Neil Gaimon watching his wife Amanda Palmer singing. The look of love and adoration in his eyes while she is full of radiance and doing what she loves is amazing, and totally illustrates what Esther (and Rori with her Out The Window tool) describes. Here’s the photo: http://instagram.com/p/hCvrQFLdLD/#

    Anyway, I am performing my burlesque routine tonight in front of 300 people including my man, and am now feeling very inspired to throw all my energy out the window. And, btw, I HIGHLY recommend everyone try a burlesque class at least once in their lives – it’s the perfect way to connect with Siren energy!

    Much love to you all xxx



  125.  #125Femininewoman on November 23, 2013 at 4:13 am

    “Problem is Girls and women aren’t taught this, we are taught to be ‘nice’ and not etc etc.
    And boys are not taught that when a girl or woman says No, Or No don’t want to do that and it’s the end of the conversation not the beginning of a negotiation.

    They are taught that if a man says No that it means No but not when a woman and a girl says it.”

    I either end up feeling cracked up with silly laughter defensive or turned off when I read such sweeping generalizations. Here is Rori obviously TEACHING women to say no. She says we have veto power. Just this week I have been dealing with my 15 year old son on an issue. He believes he was being persistent and I had to repeat several times that he has to learn to take no for an answer. I am sure many a mother will attest to the fact that they teach their boys this valuable lesson. What they do in their lives is their choice to make and we can only hope after that. A man pushing a woman’s boundary does not mean that. Maybe the reality is that for some families the tabooed sexuality is not discussed so some men don’t learn from mama or even daddy how this can affect a woman. How to negotiate and be in a relationship is not taught in schools or many homes. However it is taught in some. There are mothers out there who teach their boys to respect women. I know I do.



  126.  #126Femininewoman on November 23, 2013 at 4:15 am

    Great level of awareness Andrea



  127.  #127Syreena on November 23, 2013 at 4:31 am

    How we are taught not to Honor ourselves and our NO’s and how people test us.

    Someone asks Do you want a drink.
    And if we don’t we reply ” No thank you”
    Now if they respect that. That will be the end of that conversation and a new on will start.

    If they don’t and they seek to control us.
    They will try and get us to change our minds.
    This may appear to be no big deal.
    Where it is actually hugely significant.
    A lot of women will give in to be ‘nice’ polite, sociable, not offend, etc etc.
    And say ” oh all right then, I guess one will be ok, etc etc.
    What happens then is the person trying to control, will go one step more, and then more and more. Until they have finally found someone they can have control over.

    Wanting to have control over someone is the opposite of love.

    So the question is.
    Do I want to be in a loving relationship?
    Or a controlling one?

    My answer a loving one.
    So then I must be aware of what I want and say No to what I don’t want and stick to the NO to what I don’t want.

    And the right man for me if what I want is a loving relationship will hear that and honor it.

    Then the right man for me will



  128.  #128Zia on November 23, 2013 at 4:56 am

    Went out last night with some work colleagues, and there was a guy there who I’d seen a few months ago at a staff meeting, and at the time I thought he was pretty cute and then forgot about it. When I saw him last night he said that he’d seen me at the meeting and wanted to speak to me but never got the chance. And he had a lot of nice things to say to me last night, it was really nice 🙂



  129.  #129Linda on November 23, 2013 at 5:06 am

    Andrea. I just gotta say I love the way you write. It is like we get to see what is going on on the story outside and the story inside. Like,being in the scene and then turning to the camera and speaking directly to the audience and then going back to the scene. Like a narrator. or the series “house of cards” with Kevin Spacey.

    The thoughts you have or true feelings that you reveal are pretty much spot on with what would be popping in to my head.

    Like yesterday… when I had my interaction with the man I had been seeing exclusively last year. I listened to what he had to say and I responded with control using RR tools, but on the inside I was hopping mad and wanted to blast him but didnt. Instead I told him what I was feeling and because he used it as an opportunity as he did..and it was not at all feeling good I shut the conversation down and hung up. It was a baby step toward bringing my outside and inside stories together so they were in line.

    What I yearn for is to have the outside story and the inside story match and my feelings and dialogue to truly be aligned. I yearn to have the guts to myself permission to be authentic and live my inner story out loud even if it is not all polished up.

    I am headed that direction because right now I feel a bit plastic and fake.

    In the meantime I am right with you.. just fine with the things I am doing that feel good to me and filling my life up with them.



  130.  #130April Rose on November 23, 2013 at 5:57 am

    Linda G

    I love this!

    “The way to detoxify a guy is to lean way way back, so his aggressive behaviors have no power.”



  131.  #131April Rose on November 23, 2013 at 6:03 am

    Andrea,

    I feel in awe of you.

    I feel inspired by your lightness of touch.

    I have one idea for the man who says he’s coming up with a great date. If this applies to you, and you would be happy with it, you could let him know you don’t need champagne and concerts – that you’d be happy walking and talking and looking in the windows of shops, just hanging out. Rori says these are the best kind of dates, cos you’re not sitting loking at one another across a table (it can be too focussed and intense), and also because you can get a better picture of him on a date like this.



  132.  #132Zara on November 23, 2013 at 8:08 am

    *****Background to the noise in restaurant story: Last year we went to brunch. The music was blasting so I politely asked the waitress if they could turn down the music. She did and I thanked her. Then SEVERAL months later we go back to the same place. We sat down.

    BEFORE the waitress comes over, Sam in a VERY annoyed voice, scolds me and says ” DON’T ASK THE WAITRESS TO TURN DOWN THE MUSIC.”

    I had completely forgotten this – apparently he hadn’t. He said “Is this loud?”

    I said “A little…”

    He says all in a HUFF “Let’ s go then…”
    O
    We get outside and he is all pissed “Okay where do you want to go then?”

    I mentioned two other places and we went to one of them, BUT why on earth did SET HIM OFF like that?

    Now I am afraid there will be more incidents like the ones above…Love, Pamela*****

    He remembered and took care of your well being by choosing to leave the place and by letting you chose the new place.

    Instead of interpreting it as an incident, I would interpret it as him remembering at the last minute this place does not make my body happy and him hurrying in taking me out of the place to make sure my body keeps feeling good.

    I would say: ” awww you remembered! I love that I can tell you my body feels bad in the noise and you don’t think I am crazy, you remember and you help me stay safe from the noise. I feel taken care of, it feels sweet and safe, thank you, you are my hero.”

    ________________________________
    On the other hand, what happened last year during the brunch probably felt like an incident to Sam.

    I would not dream of asking a restaurant to put their music down. It feels rude to me. And ridiculous. It is the owner’s restaurant, not mine. He plays the music as loud as he wishes and as the law allows. I may like it and enjoy his place a couple of hours or I may dislike it and leave before I am given a table. Any of these two options involve only me and thus are my total freedom, with no rudeness involved.

    One thing is to answer the waiter’s question before we leave: “did you enjoy your stay with us? Was everything all right?”
    The client: “The meal was gorgeous and the staff fantastic. I am not sure I would come back, though, the music is too loud for me and I am feeling overwhelmed. It stopped me from really enjoying.”

    But it is a totally different approach to chose to sit, order a meal and command a waitress to change how her boss sets his place’s ambiance. This seems ridiculous and it seems selfish too as in I want everybody else to lose the sound they love and to instead cope with my kind of noise level.

    It feels like I am hysterical or something for me to ask a waiter to change how the restaurant works.
    I can see how my date would feel embarrassed.
    I can see how he would wish I had rather shared my feelings with him, as how I feel is our business and none of the waitress’ business.
    I can see he would have preferred to be the first one to know I feel bad in this restaurant noise so he could have taken the action to leave the restaurant before we were given a table.
    I can see how he felt betrayed. I accepted to sit in a restaurant he chose and I acted like if it was a place good enough for us to order a meal and then I squeezed him out of my reality, like if he was worth sh*t , like if he could not understand me, he could not help me anyway, so I totally left him out of my experience and instead I addressed a stranger (the waitress) to share I feel bad!
    I asked a stranger (the waitress) to be my hero and to find a solution. What does that say about the man sat in front of me? Am I thinking he is a loser hence I won’t share my feelings with him before I share them with a stranger?

    What’s the point of dating him for years if I rely on a waitress before I rely on him to cherish my feelings?

    xxx



  133.  #133Zara on November 23, 2013 at 8:16 am

    *****Background to the noise in restaurant story: Last year we went to brunch. The music was blasting so I politely asked the waitress if they could turn down the music. She did and I thanked her. Then SEVERAL months later we go back to the same place. We sat down.

    BEFORE the waitress comes over, Sam in a VERY annoyed voice, scolds me and says ” DON’T ASK THE WAITRESS TO TURN DOWN THE MUSIC.”

    I had completely forgotten this – apparently he hadn’t. He said “Is this loud?”

    I said “A little…”

    He says all in a HUFF “Let’ s go then…”
    O
    We get outside and he is all p* s s e d “Okay where do you want to go then?”

    I mentioned two other places and we went to one of them, BUT why on earth did SET HIM OFF like that?

    Now I am afraid there will be more incidents like the ones above…Love, Pamela*****

    He remembered and took care of your well being by choosing to leave the place and by letting you chose the new place.

    Instead of interpreting it as an incident, I would interpret it as him remembering at the last minute this place does not make my body happy and him hurrying in taking me out of the place to make sure my body keeps feeling good.

    I would say: ” awww you remembered! I love that I can tell you my body feels bad in the noise and you don’t think I am crazy, you remember and you help me stay safe from the noise. I feel taken care of, it feels sweet and safe, thank you, you are my hero.”

    ________________________________
    On the other hand, what happened last year during the brunch probably felt like an incident to Sam.

    I would not dream of asking a restaurant to put their music down. It feels rude to me. And ridiculous. It is the owner’s restaurant, not mine. He plays the music as loud as he wishes and as the law allows. I may like it and enjoy his place a couple of hours or I may dislike it and leave before I am given a table. Any of these two options involve only me and thus are my total freedom, with no rudeness involved.

    One thing is to answer the waiter’s question before we leave: “did you enjoy your stay with us? Was everything all right?”
    The client: “The meal was gorgeous and the staff fantastic. I am not sure I would come back, though, the music is too loud for me and I am feeling overwhelmed. It stopped me from really enjoying.”

    But it is a totally different approach to chose to sit, order a meal and command a waitress to change how her boss sets his place’s ambiance. This seems ridiculous and it seems selfish too as in I want everybody else to lose the sound they love and to instead cope with my kind of noise level.

    It feels like I am hysterical or something for me to ask a waiter to change how the restaurant works.
    I can see how my date would feel embarrassed.
    I can see how he would wish I had rather shared my feelings with him, as how I feel is our business and none of the waitress’ business.
    I can see he would have preferred to be the first one to know I feel bad in this restaurant noise so he could have taken the action to leave the restaurant before we were given a table.
    I can see how he felt betrayed. I accepted to sit in a restaurant he chose and I acted like if it was a place good enough for us to order a meal and then I squeezed him out of my reality, like if he was worth s h* t , like if he could not understand me, he could not help me anyway, so I totally left him out of my experience and instead I addressed a stranger (the waitress) to share I feel bad!
    I asked a stranger (the waitress) to be my hero and to find a solution. What does that say about the man sat in front of me? Am I thinking he is a loser hence I won’t share my feelings with him before I share them with a stranger?

    What’s the point of dating him for years if I rely on a waitress before I rely on him to cherish my feelings?

    xxx



  134.  #134Lisa on November 23, 2013 at 9:28 am

    @Andrea that post cracked me up… I can relate.. I have those same feelings…. idiot… frustrations and all….

    I think the same things… I’ve had men do that and I eventually just lost interest… I figured the right man will step up… and not dilly dally around… you are the creme de la creme

    “S” wanted to see me today and ask me to come to his house if I had time to visit before my party tonight…. he had previous plans and so do I… and I’ll see him tonight after the party…

    Hummm this grey area… for me… do I go see him and visit at his house? I feel like I’m settling in with him and really haven’t had many actual “dates” going out… I’m feeling hesitant… and perfectly content at home doing my own thing… almost feels too much effort to go see him now…

    I’m so into taking care of me now…

    decisions, decisions

    OXOXO



  135.  #135Sofie on November 23, 2013 at 9:45 am

    Dear Rori and girls, I’ve been dating a guy for a month (we knew each other longer) and it was really beautifull. He was contacting every 2-3 days, spending time together, bringing me gifts, having sex, but in our last meeting i accidentally asked him (during sex) if he was mine. He replied that he was mine for tonight. I got very triggered and the next morning, although he was very sweet and gentle with me, i told him i felt awkward hearing this and that i want to be the only girl in his life. Anyway he told me that he likes the that things have been light and cosy between us and that he don’t want to make it official to our friends. He didn’t contacted me after, so 2 days later i sent him an email telling him what i want in my life, apologizing for my silly question, telling him i don’t want to stress anybody or owe anybody but i like him and i have a lovely time with him. I also told him i don’t care about shalow relationships but i look for the real deal. Anyway,it’s been 4 days i got no contact yet from him, and i would like your advice, did i really screwed everything up? Do you think it is wrong to say to a guy after one month, that you are looking for a real exclusive relationship?
    Thank you in advance for your advice!@



  136.  #136Millie on November 23, 2013 at 9:56 am

    Ladies…. “Mechanic” is frustrating me a little bit. It’s clear to me now that whether that night was a date or not, we aren’t “dating.” He texts me A LOT, every night and usually first thing I the morning, but he isn’t pursuing me. To refresh… Last wknd we had a late night with friends and ended up kissing and messing around a little. Neither of us have talked about it, but communication never stopped. I KNOW he likes me. He always wants to know what I’m doing. A few nights this week I was out, so I don’t think I’m making myself available, but I’m also not playing hard to get. The other night, he asks me what I’m doing, asks what time I have to work tomorrow, and tells me how much beer he has (enough clearly for two) but he doesn’t invite me over. I wouldn’t have gone anyway, but I did say… This feels silly. He asked why and I said because it feels like we are dancing around getting together, but no one is flat out saying it. He responded with he’d like to…but he has to wake up early and work. I said I understood. I respect that, but my girl voice says “no means he doesn’t want to.” I decide to pull back. The next night he starts texting me again, and I know how it goes, he’s gonna be texting ‘me all night. At this point I feel like we are friends that flirt, so I invited him over saying I prefer to talk in person rather than text. He also lives close by. Again he said he had to get up early. I told him, it’s early, and I’ll kick you out later. (It’s and inside joke) he said “right.” So I dropped it and I decided to stop responding. He continued to send pictures of what he was doing and said he was jealous of the movie I was watching. This frustrates me!!!! It’s like…. You obviously want to talk to me, we like the same things, just come hang out!” My inner voice is screaming. I stopped answering because my other voice was saying “he doesn’t want to.” Anyway, He’s a grown man, he can do what he wants. I’m not sure if he’s worried that if he comes over we will end up making out and yada yada…. End up drinking too much and staying up too late and he’ll be trashed for work. In my mind, we can just talk for a few hours and he can leave, just as we do through texting. I don’t know…… The only I do know is to lean back and not invite him over again. It’s lame if we are just friends. I trust myself, I’m wondering if he doesn’t…..



  137.  #137Rori Raye on November 23, 2013 at 9:58 am

    Sofie, Welcome – and please read everything here about Circular Dating. Not only do you NEVER want to ASK a man for exclusivity of ANY kind – YOU don’t want exclusivity, either – unless you have EVERYTHING you want with him ALREADY!!!!! Love, Rori



  138.  #138Linda G on November 23, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    FW,
    I have a 16 year old on, who never takes “no” for an answer. We have been having this conversation for years.
    He is very stubborn, bright and argumentative, with everybody..i need to believe and commit to my “no” more, with him and everyone else



  139.  #139Sofie on November 23, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    thank you Rori @



  140.  #140Zara on November 23, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    “Men will die for significance, ladies!”

    http://getrmt.com/kaala.html
    With Tony Robbins

    xxx



  141.  #141Kyla on November 23, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    Ok I’ve been working on flipping my attitude
    Its all free therapy and free coffee so be open and see how you feel
    I started responding to all my emails yesterday and feeling really positive about all the tummy fluttering first dates I will be going on and how much practice I will get checking in with my feelings and being around all sorts of different types of men. I dropped all my preconceptions about height, age etc and just responded from the heart to every guy who sent me an email.

    My mood just seemed to instantly lift and suddenly I was getting all these real “made an effort” conversational emails not just “hey, you’re cute, how are you?’ stuff.

    And requests for real take you out to dinner dates from the guys who were starting to bore me with chit chat!

    Another man who had asked for a date for tonight but I have plans with my kids so today he asked for my availability for the rest of the week because he’s excited to meet me and wants to plan something really special, I told him coffee would be fine and he said that’s why you deserve more 🙂

    Aww there are some real sweeties out there, even if they’re not a match I’m feeling a whole lot better about this dating thing. I really want to CD properly this time and not let the comfort of a live-in lover cloud my judgement.



  142.  #142Luzydel on November 23, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    135: Sofie

    It seems he is not ready for a serious exclusive relationship, and this has nothing to do with what you said or did. Perhaps is time to leave him alone and start dating again?

    He s telling you the truth, believe it; instead of over thinking things.



  143.  #143Luzydel on November 23, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    test



  144.  #144Millie on November 23, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    Andrea-I like April Rose’s suggestion! That may open the door for him if he’s stressing about “the right” date to plan.



  145.  #145Emerson on November 23, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    115 Andrea my first thought I this man not able to plan a date is that he is lazy and/or cheap. But then I thought well maybe he is in a relationship and that’s why he is not freewheel ends or in the evenings.
    Hmmm I hope I’m wrong.
    I also noticed alot of men are not good at asking women on dates they are very confused by women’s liberation and they want us to plan it. Some women will do that, I will not.

    9 Angel ((hugs)) and don’t be so hard on yourself…I’m sorry about your diagnosis but its one persons opinion and its also treatable. I know maybe how you feel because I was once diagnosed with depression and the Dr was pushing mess on me pretty hard core. I refused the meds and found ways to help myself feel better, but it was hard.
    One thing I did do was take really good care of myself.
    I hope you keep posting on the blog and let us know how you’re doing.

    Hi T-girl!



  146.  #146Emerson on November 23, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Ah my last comment is in moderation not sure why…it’s ok not had a bunch of typos anyways sheesh haha



  147.  #147Femininewoman on November 23, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    Zara your wisdom is priceless as usual.



  148.  #148Andrea on November 23, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    so today.. a message in my facebook inbox from mr. passive/passive…
    “Sounds like you’re busy on Sundays, but I sure would love to see you soon.”

    WHAT????? What is he going by? He’s never asked me a thing about Sundays, nor does he see nor know my schedule. WTF!!! I’m posting on here just so I don’t go off on his ass irrationally. I really want to tell what an F-Tard he is and to never contact me again.

    But what is the better thing to do?? Just leave this alone? Just don’t say anything? Just don’t engage. He’s stated that he wants to meet, but I keep getting these stupid messages as though it’s my fault, my busy schedule that’s holding him back when he has never inquired about my schedule, never set a date, never asked me out.. just gave a stupid suggestion that “pop by his office to say hello”

    Oh God.. I’m angry. I don’t even like this guy but boy has he triggered something with in me. This is truly a man who would irritate the S*** out of me.

    Should I just ignore????



  149.  #149Indigo on November 23, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    I am feeling extremely irritable right now. My family whom I live with (and love) – though I do have my own wing of the house… I am feeling really peopled out from work, I haven’t taken a day off in a while. And my family makes it worse by every time I even poke my head out into their part of the house bombarding me with questions “Where did you get that shampoo?” “Why didn’t you move the laundry line out into the sun rather?” “Do you have a diagram for that fence you’re building?” This is all in the space of 5 minutes. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!! I feel like I’m going crazy.

    Do I have a sign on my head that says ask me all sorts of inane questions at will? Grrr. I just want to be left alone and it makes me so cross how other people are so desperate for attention and connection that they completely ignore the fact that the person in front of them doesn’t want to connect. I wish people would lean back. Lay back, BE QUIET.



  150.  #150Indigo on November 23, 2013 at 10:43 pm

    I realize this is a huge wealth of learning information for me, that this is coming up as a mirror for myself.

    My feelings about this are trying to show me something about myself.

    I just want some alone time though. I need to be by myself and recharge.



  151.  #151Indigo on November 23, 2013 at 10:52 pm

    Millie,

    This is excellent experimenting, and I hope you are Circular Dating. This mechanic is not someone you want to get hung up on, from the sounds of things. One wouldn’t want to speculate on the why, but it sounds like he’s the kind of man who could leave you frustrated regularly, tempting you to lean forward, exposing any insecure bits.

    Maybe he’s not ready to be in a relationship, maybe he doesn’t want to… who knows. But please don’t pay too much attention. Go out and do fun stuff!



  152.  #152Emerson on November 23, 2013 at 11:32 pm

    I don’t know why all my comments are landing in moder-ation!



  153.  #153Emerson on November 23, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    Sirens I’m feeling confused!



  154.  #154Wildflower on November 24, 2013 at 4:32 am

    I love love love Rori and I am really wanting to cultivate a relationship with a man that encompasses both this romantic, beautiful masculine/ feminine dynamic as well as a committed partnership. I just don’t understand why Rori is telling a woman that the above scenario is what being in a relationship is all about. I was in what I believe was a similar situation all last year with a man who was fairly difficult and had a reputation for not being able to “do relationship.” So I really went with the advice that is being given to the woman in this post and I just leaned way back, went with what he wanted to do (which was ski all the time), mostly focused on pretty things and feeling in the moment, didn’t lean forward or ask questions….and it “worked”…kinda. We lived two hours apart but he called me twice every day, we saw one another at least three weekends per month, he wasn’t dating anyone else. It probably could have gone on for a while like this. The thing is, deep down I always felt very alone and conflicted. And because I was following advice that most people nowadays wouldn’t understand, I also felt very alone outside of my relationship with him. It was like I couldn’t share my inner experience with anyone for fear of being rejected, yet at the same time i was cultivating that scenario by making these choices. Plus i wouldnt say i was “interdependent” but more “dependent” on him based on this whole scenario (or at least at this point i felt scared if i didnt have this i would have nothing). So I finally confided to someone what was going on and asked for help and this person convinced me to share with this man that the skiing was great yet the amount we were doing was causing me financial hardship, and that I felt awful leaving my dog with somebody every weekend, and that the après ski bar scene he enjoyed was overwhelming to me to do as often as we were doing it. But at this point it was kind of too late. Or maybe he just wasnt a man who could engage with a woman at this level. Even tho I worded everything in feeling messages, asked him what he thought we should do, and was careful not to attack him, at this point I was breaking this unspoken rule that he made the decisions and I went along for the ride. So, I guess long story short is I take full responsibility for not working on my own inner self so that I allowed this “relationship” to get as far as it did. Yet I have to say I don’t believe “in the meantime do this” is going to help build this woman’s confidence either. But I do love Rori to pieces so I am open to the possibility that maybe I’m not understanding her. Or maybe we just disagree 🙂



  155.  #155Wildflower on November 24, 2013 at 4:35 am

    Oh I forgot to add he broke up with me shortly after I shared all of this stuff with him



  156.  #156Zia on November 24, 2013 at 5:25 am

    What has been really great is that I’ve now witnessed first hand for the (first time since starting this work) a man expressing that he’d seen me and was drawn to speak to me without me doing anything… and it has given me the little bit of “proof” I need to keep being feminine, open, vulnerable, etc etc without any expectations from any men. I mean, I knew it works but it was really lovely to hear confirmation of a man telling me he saw me and thought “I HAVE to speak to her”…. and then complimenting me in ways I’ve never actually heard from anyone before.



  157.  #157Andrea on November 24, 2013 at 7:07 am

    Why do my comments keep going into moderation?



  158.  #158Zara on November 24, 2013 at 7:52 am

    *****Two nights ago Sam blurts out “How loud does the place have to be for you not to go there? There is this place that’s supposed to be the best bar/restaurant in the city. I can go with someone else but…”

    I said ” Oh it feels like fun. I can do loud – I have done loud …”

    Before I could finish he blurts out in FRUSTRATION ” OH FORGET IT FORGET IT.”

    I felt AWFUL – like I had disappointed him or RUINED his plans. I said sweetly “Well let me look it up online. Sometimes Yelp lists the noise level.”

    Sam says: “No just forget it. I don’t want to travel there and have to leave…”*****

    “Blurts”
    This reads like the writer lacks respect for her date, I even wonder if she likes him.
    I would feel bad if my fiance would use the verb “blurt” to describe me feeling interested in his preferences.

    What he is supposed to have blurted out, reads to me as a simple question, meant to find out her level of comfort so to keep this level of comfort for her own benefit. It feels nice to hear my date ask about my level of comfort. It makes for a good conversation. I don’t see the problem.

    *****i can do loud, I have done loud*****
    When?
    In Sam’s experience, the writer does not do loud. Not only she tells people and him she “hates” loud, but he has seen and heard her ask a restaurant to lower their atmosphere music, no less than that!

    I would feel pushed away by such an answer.
    I am wanting a simple information, a technical one, which is the level of noise she can cope with, so I can plan an easy breezy night out for both of us.
    My question comes from my good will to manage peace for our night out and it comes from my experience of who she is regarding noise and regarding respect of others in a restaurant.

    Do I get my simple information?
    No, I get a lie coming from an emotional reaction.
    I perceive the woman felt made wrong by my simple question, and she would say anything to prove she is not wrong. As the man who asked the innocent question, I feel overwhelmed by the emotional lie and I just want to forget it all.
    If I go deeper to understand why the woman is lying to me, I might found reasons to stop loving her.
    I love her and I don’t want to take the risk, so I say: “forget it, forget it”

    The woman stops me from connecting with her.
    When I am getting close to her heart by asking what makes her feel good, she lies to keep me away form her heart. Last year, she’s proven she’d rather trust a waitress than me with her well being. It is a way to keep me away form her heart. If I was the one she would share her truth with, she would let me feel her vulnerability, which scares her off.

    I don’t know how to handle such woman, so I say “forget it, forget it”
    Or I might know and what I know is that she is to be accepted where she is at or she will cave in even more, and it is best to just move on with this conversation and say “forget it, forget it”

    *****I felt AWFUL – like I had disappointed him or RUINED his plans.*****
    I think the writer’s intuition was on, at that moment.
    Sam felt disappointed by the push away from the woman.
    He was trying to get close to her by doing good for her and she stopped him. He planned to find the right restaurant and for this he needs her truth, which he simply asked for.
    She denied herself, she denied what she told everybody and him, she denied his own experience of her in the brunch restaurant, of course he felt disappointed. Not only she denies herself, which feels weird enough, but she does not give him the information he was expecting.
    He feels disappointed, the conversation is not going the simple straight way he was expected it to go. Plus he still does not have the information, hence he won’t be able to find the perfect restaurant up to her comfort level.
    She does not want to tell him the truth, how can he know the noise level by himself?
    He is seeing that he might pick up the wrong restaurant again and this ruins his plans of making her feel safe and comfortable during their night out.

    Pam stopped the convo from flowing naturally. She took over it, probably a pattern of over functioning.
    His question is “what is the ideal noise level for you?”
    Simple question if any.
    Possible answer would have been the number of units of noise level, as simple as that. Or she could have said she does not know, in terms of number.
    But her answer was:
    1: “I don’t have a problem with the noise level” (a lie)
    2: “”I will look up on internet the noise level of the restaurant and will tell you”

    Duh!
    If she looks up the number on internet, then she knows the number.
    Just give him the number, that is what he is asking for. Let him do the search on Internet himself.
    Pam is taking the search, the planning, in hands, she is taking over his convo, over his idea, over his inspiration to keep her safe. She does not trust him to make it on his own.

    He got the message.

    She does not share her information with him, she just takes over everything and keep it all on her side.
    He is left empty handed, empty hearted.

    Of course he feels disappointed, she won’t let him give to her. She does not trust him.

    His good intentions are dismissed by the woman he loves, and he is speaking to a wall.
    Anything he says, he gets back a lie or his intentions are highjacked.

    xxx



  159.  #159April Rose on November 24, 2013 at 11:19 am

    Lisa,
    I think I remember Rori saying that it’s fine to go to a man’s house if he invites you for a meal or some other ‘occasion’. But it’s best not to go there to vaguely ‘hang out’.



  160.  #160Cris on November 24, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    Is there something wrong with the blog? It seems that suscripciones do not work…



  161.  #161Amazed on November 24, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    Millie…I feel frustrated for you… (((hugs)))
    I’ve been having a frustrating week myself…sometimes theses FM work too well and now I can’t get rid of the guy…lol



  162.  #162Amazed on November 24, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    I will be using them more on my ExoticCD though that I’m having a second chance with, I want to be able to communicate with his heart. It’s definitely helping this time…I’m leaning way back and he texts first always. The other one…AnnoyingCD got pissed when I leaned back and didn’t text. He’s also pissed right now since I wouldn’t drive out to his place even though I’m not feeling well… 🙁 Seems he has control issues – same as my ex.



  163.  #163Millie on November 24, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    Im experiencing problems with the blog. anyone else??



  164.  #164Emerson on November 24, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    Hi sirens, I’m feeling a little blue this weekend like I’m not a priority to certain people and it doesn’t matter …but it bothers me a little..



  165.  #165Rori Raye on November 24, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    So sorry about the “moderation.” Thank you April Rose, for emailing me – I didn’t catch it before…and when I’m not at my computer, I don’t check nearly as often as I should (Sunday)!

    We (and nearly every other blog) are getting hit by millions of automated spam bots and swipes from all over the world – sometimes it all happens over just a few seconds (and then repeats endlessly), and so the spam blockers here go into overdrive and stop everything.

    I’ll try to stay on this more, and get my webmaster to stay on it, too.

    Please, please email me personally if you see a backup on the blog – I want to hear you all at the exact second you want to be heard!

    Love, Rori



  166.  #166Millie on November 24, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    Yay!!! Blog is back!!!!

    @151 Indigo– Yes I am circular dating! And I’ve met a really great guy, so I feel good seeing mechanic and other men without feeling attached!

    Actually, mechanic came over last night! It was fun, I really talking to him. What I like here is that he shares who he is with me. He shares things that are very personal that he doesn’t share with others. I feel good that he trusts me and feels comfortable with me. He told me he doesn’t want to “settle down” and that he could be in a relationship if he choose. He said this of his own accord. I said that to me, relationships don’t have to be about “settling down” at all, everyone can define and create their own vision of a relationship. I felt good about who I am. Hearing him vent some frustrations about people that has led him to be the man he is, I felt confident in the woman I am. He seems like a man that wants an aggressive woman, who pushes back, very outgoing…..For a minute I felt bad because he doesn’t see me that way, but it was a flash feeling. I sat next to him and told myself I am a goddess and I am perfect exactly the way I am. I don’t need to be that woman and if he passes me up because of it, that’s fine. I felt really good!!! I am authentic and genuine and loving….and I love myself for who I am. 🙂 Anyway, he made the moves, initiated kissing and being intimate, although we didn’t have sex. It seems this is becoming a friends with benefits….at first I didn’t want that, but now I’m not sure…I’m dating other people, do I really need to date him? If he’s already told me he doesn’t want to settle down….then there really isn’t a point. I’m wondering if I feel ok just being his friend and going with this for now…..at some point there will need to be a conversation, but I don’t feel the need to have it yet. I don’t feel the need to make things black or white yet.



  167.  #167Millie on November 24, 2013 at 9:35 pm

    @Zara 158 Brilliantly written. At first I would have dismissed Sam, but now I see how Pam caused the disconnect.



  168.  #168Syreena on November 24, 2013 at 11:37 pm

    Feels odd to me that someone who is so forthright in telling a woman what not to do. ” Don’t tell the waitress to turn the music down”. Is so backwards in coming forwards in not asking for what he does want.
    If what he wants is to either find out the noise level himself.
    Or stating that he would like to ask the waitress himself.

    Doesn’t add up to me.

    And how some people think it’s rude for a woman to request that music which is loud be turned down.
    But that it isn’t aggressive and rude for a man to Demand that a woman doesn’t do something or does do something. ” forget it, forget it” It feels bad to me hearing women blaming women for how men choose to react.

    Woman uses a request ” could you turn the music down please.
    Man dictates.

    I would ask Pamela. Do you want a man who dictates?
    Or a man who proposes and requests? and then let’s you choose to accept or decline what is being proposed?



  169.  #169Femininewoman on November 25, 2013 at 2:01 am

    Millie Yayy you. Mechanic has spoken his truth. He does not want to settle. He might even see you as a fling. He might even want to do sex as a sport with you. Are you comfortable with that? He will always come back to the fact that he told you he does not want to settle and that you know what you are doing in playing around with him. He might even be the one to say goodbye to his girlfriend for now when he meets his Mrs. Right. Would you be okay with that?



  170.  #170Linda on November 25, 2013 at 5:24 am

    I got hit with the moderation block this week end. I am glad to see things are rolling her again.

    So much is going on with me right now. I am trying to wade thru shelved feelings and have several conversations with family members about the state of “ME”… it is not for the faint of heart. THis is a very hard season for me. Last week I talked to my youngest dauther.. it went better than I thought. Yesterday… my mom and my ex-husband. I was totally honest with all of them. These encounters are so tiring and… it feels like I am peeling off old hard skin in small little patches. I feel raw and tired.

    baby steps .

    I saw FavoiteCD this week end. That relationship is viable in many ways. I want an integrated life no matter how who or what I do. I have started this process… I dont know how long it will take to find my peace.

    One day at time … a baby step at a time.



  171.  #171Femininewoman on November 25, 2013 at 5:55 am

    Yayy you MIllie.

    Hope I see this comment as I responded to you earlier but it seems to be deleted. This man has told you his truth before he starts to put moves on you. HE DOES NOT WANT TO SETTLE. He might want a fling with you. He might want sex as a sport. He has clearly told you that he does not want to take you home to mama. Can you check to see how you will feel with him after having sex and dealing with his dealbreaker? I believe a woman who wants the whole enchilada is a dealbreaker for him right now, Are you okay with being the girlfriend for now when it is convenient for him or at least until he meets his Mrs. Right and chooses to change his mind about settling down?



  172.  #172April Rose on November 25, 2013 at 10:47 am

    Indigo 149

    This made me laugh! I get people overload too, and then I just want to check out and have some space inside my own self.
    The thing is though, if we don’t want to connect with them it leaves a void in their lives.
    They can sense we are a-void ing them!



  173.  #173Femininewoman on November 25, 2013 at 10:52 am

    “But that it isn’t aggressive and rude for a man to Demand”

    It’s all in the frame you choose to put around things. You can choose to be negative or choose to be positive. Whichever you choose it comes out in your words and vibe. What you focus on grows. Any two women can exprience the same thing and each choose a different frame. Your external expression is reflective of your thinking. Look for the negatives and you will always be able to find them.



  174.  #174Indigo on November 25, 2013 at 10:59 am

    Zara 158,

    I really do see what you are saying, and I respect your wisdom, and I love the intuitive way that you write,

    and I strongly disagree with you.

    And that’s ok.



  175.  #175Indigo on November 25, 2013 at 11:02 am

    Thanks April Rose 🙂

    I felt a little bit (just a tiny bit) like a horrible person for writing that.

    And I felt SO much better for just having a day to myself.

    And I agree about people knowing you’re avoiding them… I used to worry about not wanting them to feel rejected, but I’ve made my peace with it now.

    xx



  176.  #176Indigo on November 25, 2013 at 11:06 am

    YAY you Linda!! 🙂



  177.  #177April Rose on November 25, 2013 at 11:32 am

    Indigo,

    I too worry about social ‘norms’ and other people thinking I’m a horrible person (I know I’m not, but I worry that they think I’m bad).

    In fact, this affects me quite a lot. I’ve never quite found the feeling message that gives me peace of mind.
    “I’m feeling overwhelmed” is one I use, but it still makes me think that they think I am weird.

    Hmm
    “It would feel so refreshing to switch my brain off just now, and retreat into a dark cave to recharge my batteries”



  178.  #178Millie on November 25, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Femininewoman,
    It felt really good to read your yay!!
    My answer to you is NO. I am not ok with being a “for now” even if I make him my “for now.”
    Here’s why…

    When a man says he doesn’t want a relationship right now, I hear the unspoken words of “with you.” He does not want to settle down “with me.” I do believe that tomorrow he could meet another woman that could change all of that. And when he said this to me, I didn’t go into my sad place of self criticism…. As I normally would, wondering why I wasn’t good enough. I sat there and told myself I AM THAT WOMAN but for someone else.

    I like this man a lot. I respect him. He is someone with the ability to change and inspire people and he has inspired me. However, I do not want to settle either. I do not want to settle for…”oh I like this man but I’ll take friends with benefits since he doesn’t want a relationship.” This man is also 41 and I am 27. I also do not myself to settle with “well he’s so muh older so there really isn’t any future there so I’ll just enjoy the sex for now.” That’s selling myself short too. I do want to sleep with him, I haven’t yet, but I know that over time I will get attached and want more. I want him in my life, but I don’t want to be the hook-up girl. I have my truth, but I will wait until we see each again to tell him. I wonder about timing… If I should sleep with him once to satisfy my curiosity and then end it. Haha…



  179.  #179Indigo on November 25, 2013 at 8:44 pm

    Wildflower 154 & 155

    Yeah, that was my experience of being in a relationship with a difficult man who also had a reputation for not being able to “do relationship”, which I was for three years. It lasted as long as it did because I was soft and open and feminine, careful not to criticize, shared in feeling messages, went with what he wanted and needed most of the time. I am fully aware that *I* created that, the relationship that we had, I facilitated it, and it was because of the way I was that it lasted as long as it did.

    But like you, I realize that I need to take responsibility for not doing my own inner work, because the relationship came at a cost to me. And we also had this unspoken agreement that we would always do what he wanted, and as soon as I challenged this all bets were off.

    That’s what makes me worry for Pam. Yes, you can sustain a relationship with a man like this, with a difficult man. But if you are not building your self-esteem and maintaining your boundaries in the process (which is very difficult to do with a difficult man) the pressure is going to build.



  180.  #180Indigo on November 25, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    April Rose 177,

    I know exactly what you mean.

    In a situation like this, I have found that actions tend to speak louder than words. If you make a habit of just excusing yourself when things get too much for you, without too much explanation, without apologizing for your needs, people do learn to accept it. It seems easier for them to accept your actions than to try and wrap their heads around the concept that you feel overwhelmed and need to recharge. The ones who will understand will do so without you having to say much, I believe.

    If people do ask, I simply say “I’m feeling peopled out” or “I feel tired” or gently, “I would appreciate it if you could give me a few minutes”, but generally I say as little as possible.



  181.  #181imadime on November 27, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    this is horrible advice because this man seems childish, emotionally immature and frankly, self-absorbed. he doesn’t even seem like a nice person.
    why should she be trying to “girl up” in order to placate a man who doesn’t even treat her with common decency.
    let him go. he’s insecure and behaves like a spoiled 5-year-old. if you “get” him, you’ll be dealing with that for a lifetime.



  182.  #182Rori Raye on November 27, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    imadime – Welcome, and I agree with you in many ways (and have said so many times)! AND – we are all in different. We are all in different places in our lives. We are all evolving in different ways, on different paths. Sometimes, our paths run through men like this, situations like this. In my coaching practice – the one thing I’ve discovered is this: If a woman wants a certain man – my harping on his faults, and the flaws in the relationship, will fall on deaf ears. The only way I’ve found that helps ANYONE – is to meet them “where they are.” Meaning, I don’t judge circumstance, or desire. I teach. I coach. I use whatever man’s available – even one I could easily say I don’t “approve of.”

    We get stuck not because we don’t KNOW what we need to know, but because our subconscious runs the show – and sometimes wants only pain. The way I’ve found, in my coaching, to break through the stuckness, is to include the subconscious in the process. And my opinion is never the answer. Love, Rori



  183.  #183JANE on November 28, 2013 at 5:06 am

    The decision lies in her but what I think is changing a person is not easy,if you think you can do it you can but you have to be patient cause its a long journey!



  184.  #184Rori Raye on November 28, 2013 at 9:41 am

    Jane, Welcome, and I changed your comment to “sentence case” – please stick to that, and so happy to have your voice here on the blog! Love, Rori



  185.  #185Zara on November 30, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Syreena 168

    ***** Is so backwards in coming forwards in not asking for what he does want.*****

    I find this sentence backwards or not coming forwards in showing what it is meant to mean. 😉
    If the sentence means he does not speak up clearly, then I feel curious what exact words written by Pam allow to think such thing. Pam said he told her “don’t tell the waitress to turn the music down”, and he asked “How loud does the place have to be for you not to go there?” That is as clear as can be. The man said clearly what he wishes and what he wants to know.

    ***** If what he wants is to either find out the noise level himself.*****

    I did not read anywhere in Pam’s letter that Sam wants to “find out the noise level by himself”.
    My understanding of english made me read his question “How loud does the place have to be for you not to go there?” as meaning he wants to know how loud does the place have to be for her not to go there. I don’t feel the need to complicate things. He is asking her to tell him what is the maximum noise level she can cope with. He needs her to tell him the truth and he simply asked for it.

    ***** Or stating that he would like to ask the waitress himself. *****

    Ask the waitress what? I feel lost here too.
    If you mean to ask the waitress to put the music lower, I have not read anything in Pam’s letter that allows me to think that Sam would like to ask the waitress himself. On the contrary, Pam’s letter leads me to think , that Sam would rather have a chance to chose to leave the place before they are given a table or a chance to avoid the places too loud for Pam. Sam would not choose to ask the waitress to change how the restaurant works.

    ***** Doesn’t add up to me *****

    Probably because it does not.

    ***** And how some people think it’s rude for a woman to request that music which is loud be turned down. *****

    “Some people”?
    “Some people” would benefit from reading Rori’s lines about generalisation.

    I would love to be pointed towards the comments where it says exactly this: “it’s rude for a woman to request that music which is loud be turned down.”

    ***** But that it isn’t aggressive and rude for a man to Demand that a woman doesn’t do something or does do something. ” *****

    I would love to be pointed to the comments where it says exactly this: “it isn’t aggressive and rude for a man to Demand that a woman doesn’t do something or does do something.”

    ***** Woman uses a request ” could you turn the music down please.
    Man dictates.*****

    This does not add up either.
    These two lines are not related into one back and forth conversation.
    The woman’s line is not addressed to the man. It is adressed to a waitress, cutting the man out of her experience. Then a year later the man asked the woman to not do that again.
    The verb “dictate” feels dramatic in this context. Pam is free to do as she wishes in this example. She can not be dictated.
    If she did Sam the favor to take his plea in account, it was out of her free will. It was not out of loss of freedom or because some law forces her to. Nobody can force her to not ask a waitress to put the music down. She is free to keep doing it her own way.

    A dictator uses real armed military and police forces to force the real inhabitants of his real territory to obey his laws.
    Sam begged Pam not to ask again ONE single thing she had already freely asked before.
    I fail to see how one adds up with the other, as you say.

    I assume it is a projection with little to do with Pam’s letter or with “some people” comments.
    Fair enough, this blog is magic like that.

    In whatever way we want to look at it, the heart of it, is ME. Who the man is does not matter.

    What matters is that by thanking him for remembering, I make myself feel good. By experiencing him as trying his best, I make MY life bearable.

    What matters is ME learning to see the best in each moment, moment after moment with every man, not only with him. My life feels better.
    All I have to do is to put the best perspective on what they did or said. By best perspective, I mean the perspective clean from stories I tell myself, stories entangled with my projections and fears. Keeping my perspective clean from stories improves the quality of my life. And sometimes my best perspective is in alignment with the men’s intentions, allowing us to connect. That is a bonus. And the more we connect, the more they want to do their best to keep connecting.

    What matters is why I stay with him if I am complaining. I have legs, I can leave. He is not a dictator, he is a man with no army. I am staying for a reason that has everything to do with me. And ME is a passionate mystery that I can learn to decipher through my complaints about him.
    No blaming, but deciphering.

    And when the right man for me comes along, I am ready to reveal in my best humanity already. I won’t let my dark projections ruin our chance to connect together. I will have learnt to see a man beyond my projections. I will have learnt to see myself beyond my fears. It is a beginning.

    xxx



  186.  #186Syreena on December 2, 2013 at 7:36 pm

    Zara. I was responding to Roris reply which implied that the man in question would want to be the one asking for the waitress to turn the music down as her husband would want to do for her.

    Zara I don’t have the inclination or want to go back through the posts to see who said it was rude.
    It is there though if you want to find it.

    The dictating to me comes across in the controlling language when someone uses Don’t at the beginning of a word they are dictating to another person not to do something..
    When someone asks as in Can you, it is a request.

    Control speak, vs request speak.

    If language doesn’t come across to you like that, then it doesn’t come across to you like that. Fair enough.



  187.  #187Syreena on December 2, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    It came across to me from the OP that Roris perception was that the man would like Pam to ask him to to ask the waitress to turn the music down. So he could ask for her.

    I didn’t share this perception about this man.
    To me he comes across as being annoyed and irritated that Pam finds some loud places uncomfortable and doesn’t like noisy environments. Like he is put out by it.
    Like he thinks she is being difficult.
    That’s my take on it taking into account the speak and context from OP.

    Understand other people will have a different take on it. That’s how this man and his speech come across to me.

    Posts 181 and 182 are more on the mark to me.
    Subconscious stuff going on and running them both.
    Both attracted to each on a wounded level.
    So as he has showed up he is here for her to practice on and realise that pain isn’t love and choose love for herself instead.
    And that she isn’t wrong or difficult not liking or not wanting to tolerate excess noise. And the right man for her will be considerate, caring and understanding about this.



  188.  #188Syreena on December 2, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    Zara I don’t understand why you quote half a sentence of mine as a sentence. As by doing that it is not in context.
    To be in context the whole sentence is needed for the meaning to be clear.



  189.  #189Femininewoman on December 3, 2013 at 7:45 am

    Zara I am so with you on this one. Isn’t it amazing how we read and see what we want to based on what is going on inside of us?



  190.  #190Syreena on December 4, 2013 at 2:36 am

    I can feel a smile come across my face.
    I can feel a nod of my in agreement and amusement at the irony.
    I can feel the warmth of my breath from me yawning.
    And now it feels good to skip away with listening to this song which popped in my head.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcxYwwIL5zQ.



  191.  #191Shannon on December 9, 2013 at 7:58 am

    Reading the responses was actually a greater help to me than the post itself. I see women saying that this fellow is a dictator, and that Rori says a woman isn’t allowed to speak her own feelings and is being treated like a little girl…

    But having bought and read the e-book before reading this, the responses helped me to even further clarify the book.

    In the story originally posted, what I noticed was that Pam didn’t stick to her boundaries, nor to the “feeling statements” and “I want/ Don’t want” rules.

    When he said, “Forget it, I don’t want to go!” it would have been the perfect time to say, “I feel disappointed,” or “I feel angry.” It would have been the right time to speak to him, through using a man’s natural “I want to please” nature to communicate with him and gain his cooperation.

    She tried to get him to go to that restaurant, since it was what HE WANTED. Yet all she wanted was to feel the way she feels when she’s in his company and they are experiencing rapport and intimacy. So to help steer him into him giving her what she REALLY wanted, what she could have done was to express what she was feeling in that moment.

    It isn’t about letting him dictate, it’s about ALLOWING HIM TO PLEASE YOU.

    Men don’t want to be the one to do the ordering and complaining because they want to DICTATE. They do it because they want to PLEASE. A good man’s first inclination is not to control you. It’s to PLEASE you. This I’ve seen in my own life. What I didn’t have or understand was how to keep that PLEASING ME INSTINCT alive and active in him towards me.

    The answer is to tell him how I feel. That’s his gauge… “Am I doing the right thing to PLEASE my mate?” The answer may be yes or may be no… but the way he knows is your FEELINGS.

    As Rori said, our men want us to FEEL GOOD. That’s their compass to keep their bearings in the relationship. Happy wife, happy life!!

    But how can he know if you’re happy? How can he feel like HE is making you happy, if you won’t let him? LET HIM PLEASE YOU, is what Rori is saying. And you let him please you, by tolerating him taking care of you.

    He’s not belittling you by taking care of you. He’s giving to you. He’s nurturing you. He’s being a man–whose natural desire is to PLEASE. This is absolutely true. Men really do love to please.

    You know you’ve got a GOOD man when he goes down on you, and he’s loving it… not because he likes going down necessarily, but because he can tell that YOU LOVE IT. In this way, to a large degree, it’s actually the WOMAN that is a sort of tyrant… “Your wish is my command, My Lady.” That is how men want to be. And they LOVE to make that good feeling happen for us.

    Rori is right. When we don’t speak how we feel when we’re angry, we are keeping them from the compass–preventing them from pleasing us. We are denying them feedback and thus being EVIL dictators who expect them to JUST KNOW.

    Conversely, when we don’t speak our happiness, we are withholding their reward for successfully pleasing us.



  192.  #192Syreena on December 11, 2013 at 2:57 am

    I don’t want to get involved anymore with the in’s and outs of other peoples perceptions and what they think about Pams dilema, so I am not going to go there.

    If Pam reads this would just like to say I believe the answers are in you and you know the answers.
    And would like say I hear that you don’t like loud places
    and that you relayed have relayed this to your family and the man in question.
    Also then you then changed your mind and said somewhere sounded fun and you could do loud.
    Also hear you saying that this man told you not to take care of your own needs by asking politely for the music to be turned down and the waitress doing this so the problem was solved.
    And that he was not happy that you did this and that at a later repeat date in the same restaurant told you not to ask the waitress to turn the music down if it was too loud like you did last time. Asked you if it was too loud this time, you replied yes. He didn’t want to take care of your needs the way you would by asking the waitress for you. What he wanted was to leave rather than request if it could be turned down.

    He also said he doesn’t want to take you do a different restaurant in case it’s too loud there for you as he doesn’t want to have to leave it is.

    I also hear that you feel scared of this happening again in the future.

    I would like to ask you what you think of these things reading them back?
    Do you think this man is happy for you to take care of your own needs?
    Do you think this man has demonstrated that he wants you to be comfortable in your surroundings and wants to solve the conflict on you behalf and take care of you?
    Do you think reading back that this man has demonstrated that he cares and is able and wants to solve the conflict of loud places bothering you in a way that feels good to you and makes you feel cared for and loved?

    Do you want a man who shows you with his actions that he cares,wants you to feel comfortable in your surroundings and is willingly able to step up and be that man.

    Or do you want a man who doesn’t want you to sort your own needs out the way that felt good to you
    Doesn’t want to sort them out for you in the way that feels good to you.
    And who’s answer is to either not go in the first place as in ” oh just forget it”
    Or to leave in a huff when this problem arises?

    What do you want?
    How is either being told to forget it.
    Told not to ask politely if someone could please turn the music down when too loud.
    Not wanting to ask for you.
    And leaving in a huff working for you?

    Do you think he is up for the job of being in a happy healthy relationship with you?



  193.  #193Zara on December 15, 2013 at 9:04 am

    “As I began living my turnarounds, I noticed that I was everything I called you. You were merely my projection.

    Now, instead of trying to change the world around me (this didn’t work, but only for 43 years), I can put the thoughts on paper, investigate them, turn them around, and find that I am the very thing I thought you were.

    In the moment I see you as selfish, I am selfish (deciding how you should be). In the moment I see you as unkind, I am unkind. If I believe you should stop waging war, I am waging war on you in my mind.”
    — Byron Katie