“Take Two” for Relationship Health – Greta Hassel

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Here’s a great guest post from Greta Hassel – I love this woman – she’s a great therapist and coach and I’m thrilled to introduce her to you. You’ll want to go to her site www.essenceoflovegame.com and get her free “Couples Tune-Up Kit”:

“Have the relationship you want” … If we could figure that out, we would have it, right? Let’s face it; we all get triggered in relationship.  When that happens, what do you do?  Make an accusation?  Withdraw in self-protection?  Here’s how to stay centered and avoid that spiral of upset that can lead to an argument.

At Essence of Love Game, we share tools that even men like to use to connect and communicate. One of everyone’s favorite is called “Take Two”.  It’s like you were making a movie, and a scene hasn’t gone right, you do it over, right?

Here’s how it works:

First, there’s the botched scene:

He was critical or insensitive, or you were defensive.  It happens (way too often!).  Time for a Take Two.

This time, you’ll both use Compassionate Communication* tools to speak from the heart.  “I” words instead of “you” words, feelings and needs rather than blame and criticism.

But remember, you both have to sincerely give the other a chance to do the scene fresh, just like in the movies.

The next time this happens say: “Honey, that didn’t feel good at all, would you do a “Take Two”?   You can both take a breath, think about how you want the scene to play out, and choose words more thoughtfully.

So before your next incident, sit down with your partner and describe this process.  Practice it like a dress rehearsal beforehand to make sure you both know the rules of the game so you can set yourself up to win.  This will help put your relationship back on track without commentary – men love this- and have enough juice left to enjoy your evening together.

Try this out, and let me know how it works!

Greta Hassel, MFT

From Rori: Here’s Greta’s invitation to her Essence of Love Game coming up soon in Los Angeles:

The Essence of Love Game

Saturday, May 7th, 2011

Doubletree Hotel, El Segundo, south of LAX airport

10:00 am to 10:00 pm

Greta Hassel, MFT and Dennis Cohen, esq.

A Day You Won’t Forget, and An Experience You’ll Love To Remember!

Are you enjoying the relationship you’ve always wanted?

If not, you are not playing The Essence of Love Game.

Not just another relationship workshop, this Play Shop takes you out of the stands and on to the playing field of Love.  It is a day of interactive, action-packed, growth oriented games and exercises for couples and singles who want to move beyond the ordinary and create a playful, loving, successful, romantic, sexy, visionary relationship.

For more information, visit us at www.essenceoflovegame.com

And here’s her contact info:


Essence, Inc., President

3201 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 203

Santa Monica, Ca 90403



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  1.  #1SummerBaby on May 2, 2011 at 7:04 am

    Sounds like a great idea.

  2.  #2Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 7:12 am

    Thanks again for a good one.

  3.  #3The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 7:21 am

    Sounds like a great idea, for those who are in a relationship where both partners see a value in trying this. Because, of course, it takes two!

  4.  #4SummerBaby on May 2, 2011 at 7:32 am

    hey lurker, what do you think of changing your blog name to frog prince to match your handsome avatar photo?

  5.  #5Mel on May 2, 2011 at 7:36 am

    Ugh. Sometimes I would kill for a do-over! I wish life had a “Edit-undo” command.

    I find my husband takes a LONG time to forgive and forget. Even if I am sincerely sorry for saying or doing something insensitive.

    Last night my anxiety got the better of me and when I saw my husband close one of his computer windows when I walked by, I got really angry and blamey.

    I told him that I was upset by his secretiveness, that I was pretty sure I saw him chatting with someone on facebook and that he just closed the window as I walked by. I told him that it seems like he’s hiding something because he was once open about all of his passwords, and now he’s changed them all. I told him that he knows all of my passwords and that that seems only fair in a marriage when there is nothing to hide.

    He got extremely defensive and took his laptop in the other room. Finally I asked him if there were something going on between him and someone else, would he tell me? This just made him even more angry.

    I wish I could do a “take two” of this situation. I’m feeling remorseful for getting angry and accusing him, but at the same time I know that he’s being secretive and very “private” on the computer and it’s not a far stretch to presume something might be going on. Especially considering the other problems we are having.

    He was so angry he slept on the couch last night and will barely talk to me this morning. I’m not really sure how to deal with this. I said I was sorry for jumping to conclusions, but I really don’t know how to trust him in these kind of situations and it’s almost like I couldn’t stop myself.

    He’s hurt that I accused him and don’t trust him, but it’s not like he’s been very forthright with me either. Sigh. Some days things seem so hopeless. How can trust be rebuilt? How can I not let anxiety get the better of me? What will make this better? Help!

  6.  #6Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 7:41 am

    Babysteps Mel.

  7.  #7Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 7:48 am


    I feel your “instincts” are correct. I wish your H would be more forthright with you, but I have no suggestions to on how to make this happen. Are you taking care of you?

  8.  #8Mel on May 2, 2011 at 7:54 am

    Re 7:

    But maybe they’re not… he seemed very hurt to be accused. I have no proof of anything. The distance, and hot/coldness could also just be something men do in response to stress and an unhappy spouse (which, reading Rori’s and other materials seems like a very good possibility too).

    Could there be be another explanation for the secretive behavior? Just shutting me out perhaps?

    This is so frustrating because I feel like I don’t understand my husband any more. And I certainly don’t feel like he understands where I am coming from either.

  9.  #9Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 7:57 am

    Just got this

    Counsellors reckon that less than 25 per cent of marriages today are truly happy. What does it take to be one of them? Happiness in marriage depends on distinguishing fact from fiction. The world of movie magic creates unrealistic expectations. To enjoy life with your spouse every day, you must re-examine your thinking. Every marriage is made up of two flawed people: That includes you and your partner. It’s not that we don’t know this, it’s that we keep forgetting it, or hoping we’re the exception to the rule. Expecting perfection is naive and will keep undermining your relationship. Happiness in marriage depends on coming to terms with your mutual defects and dealing with them realistically. Recognize fiction; deal with facts-especially in certain vulnerable areas. For example, finances. Practise generosity, delayed gratification, and fiscal discipline. Secondly, personal appearance. Always try to look your best, but accept unchangeable features-both yours and your partner’s. Accept ageing with dignity and become wiser with it. Thirdly, lifestyle. Happiness is about comfort and contentment, not materialism and pride that lead to crushing indebtedness. Then, courtesy. Small kindnesses, considerate acts and words are low-cost, high-yield investments. Finally, physical satisfaction. The greatest satisfaction results from providing satisfaction for your partner.

  10.  #10Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 8:01 am

    Mel I am sorry but to me it seems this incident occurred because of focus on changing his behavior. Even if something is going on I am not sure anyone would be comfortable with someone looking over their shoulder. I don’t have any recommendation to give you but you have proven that looking over his shoulder with an expectation that he will change the secretive behavior does not work for either of you. I guess you can only offer an apology, however he is not “obliged” to accept it.

  11.  #11Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 8:02 am

    If *I* were feeling hurt being accused (and I would be-very) I would do whatever I could to make my partner understand he read the situation wrong. WHY would I go from giving my partner access to my passwords, to changing them? Why would I go ‘blamey’ with my partner regarding privacy?

    There may be another explanation for the secretive behavior, but understand, this behavior is classic for someone who is cheating or “wooing” someone to cheat with them.

  12.  #12The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 8:04 am

    #4 “what do you think of changing your blog name to frog prince”
    Oh, Summer, Baby, I dunno. I’m looking for a more interesting name, a funny pun. And right now, I like the irony of coupling the name “The Lurker”, with its possible negative, threatneing undertone (which, of course, isn’t how I want to be seen) with the picture of the friendly frog looking curiously at the world from the safety of his pond. I like the irony in that. So, I see no urgency in changing the name now. Also, always think twice before changing an established brand name!

  13.  #13Jean on May 2, 2011 at 8:08 am

    Mel – (#5), I feel so sad for you and I feel your pain. This is just what my ex used to do..and my best friends ex as well. It sounds like he is doing something he wants to hide from you. You triggered his anger…and anger comes from shame. It might not be another woman, but it might be something else as well…online gambling, porn sites(some men never physically “cheat” on their woman, but many indulge in online porn and thinks its okay.) By asking him and questioning, you are pushing him away. you are making this about him…and remember, per Rori…this is not about him, its about YOU and how YOU FEEL. If you are feeling sad, hurt, confused, you need to express this to him(I feel confused, I feel left out, etc, what do you think?) and let him know these feelings so he can see in side your heart and at the same time, it is time to TAKE CARE OF YOU. you need to take the BOY ENERGY you are putting in your man and use that to make yourself get out and find and use your girl energy to take care of you. hold your heart in side for you and to love you first.

  14.  #14Mel on May 2, 2011 at 8:12 am

    Re: 10

    I suppose I should just let go of this. It’s hard not to let it bother me, but if he “needs” privacy, than maybe he should have it?

    Is this one of those things that if I could just let go of it it might improve on its own? After a fair amount of time if he’s still behaving this way, I suppose I could make some decisions then….

    Guys? What do you think?

  15.  #15Jean on May 2, 2011 at 8:12 am

    question for my sirens and goddesses: when a man says he’s sorry…what do you do? I was excited to go on a trip that was for my man’s bday. and before we really started planning, he found out his step grandsons bday party was that day. he called as soon as he found out, he was so disappointed and so apologetic about it, I could tell he felt awful. and I responded with oh, I feel so disappointed! it would have felt awesome to get away and enjoy our time together. and he said, I feel so bad, I am so sorry, its my fault, I should have wrote it down on the calendar, I know how much you wanted to go, it would have been so much fun, can we go another time, will that be okay, I am so sorry, its all my fault!
    I just repeated, oh, I feel so disappointed.
    so…..I know he will call again to apologize further. but where do I go from here? say its okay, we can do it another time(which it is, once I got over the initial disappointment and I would never come between he and his grandkids or stepgrandkids). and he was so sincere about it. so what does anyone suggest for my “speech”??

  16.  #16The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 8:16 am

    #11 “WHY would I go from giving my partner access to my passwords, to changing them?” Lily, that’s what happened to me. In an online friendship, my virtual friend gave me her password. I never used it (even though my curiosity almost killed me), because I wanted to show I’m worthy of that show of trust. Then, after an argument that was totally unrelated with this, she told me she had changed her password. She said she felt “controlled” by me, even though I swore I never had used that access. That show of missing trust hurt. Very much. I had given her my password, too, and I only changed it weeks later, when we were close to breaking up.

    However, I don’t know if exchanging passwords is such a great idea in the first place. In a relationship, both partners need space for themselves. If you give your loved one the means to be a “big brother”, that fact will always be in the back of your mind. Imho this adds a totally unnecessary tension into the relationship (even if its only virtual). If this happened to me again, I would reject that offer. I just don’t think anymore it’s a good idea.

    A compromise idea may be to put the password into a sealed envelope, just in case. IF you want or need to look into the account, you could do that. But the fact that you did would be obvious. So, better have a very good explanation at hand. Imho that’s better than unsupervised access.

  17.  #17The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 8:26 am

    #5 Mel, of course you reacted in the wrong way (if I understand you correctly) by going balistic. However, his reaction sounds rather defensive, in a suspicious way, to me. The way you tell us what happened, it looks like he didn’t really answer to your questions. That’s right? Imho, if there was nothing going on, he would have told you so, in an outraged way. Actually, I think that would have been the very first thing he would have said. Being defensive WITHOUT denying the accusations looks like the reaction of a guilty conscience to me.

    So, what did he say in detail? And in what order?

  18.  #18Mercedes on May 2, 2011 at 8:27 am

    I think everyone would like a “do-over” sometimes but I think more importantly, we should focus on doing it right the first time. I believe if we are ALWAYS conscious of treating our partners like they are our best friend in the world, our love and our heart…well…there wouldn’t be much reason for a take two.

    Treating each other with love, respect and admiration every single moment of the day has some pretty amazing results too.

    Much Love,

  19.  #19Sloane on May 2, 2011 at 8:27 am

    baby steps…That’s good.
    I wish I could have a take two last night.. A perfect opportiunity to speak my mind and feel. I felt closed and couldn’t express my feelings.. I sat there and just smiled and ended up feeling so hurt and disgarded. I finally felt all the anger I have for my situation and feeling like I am a book on a shelf to the man I am seeing. We bump into eachother a lot and play things by ear a lot.. and sometimes I am treated like a stranger and it does not feel good. I end up feeling like I did something wrong and going down into a terrible spiral. I feel sad and hurt. It’s always a quick”how are you” everytime I see hima nd it feels like there’s no space to really say how I feel.. so I always say.. “I feel good.. or fine’ when the truth is not that. Today I feel like none of the techniques have helped me.. I feel like I will never really understand this leaning wayyyyy back thing.. how do we lean wayyyy back and do it without expectations.. and end up not seeing results??? If I continue to lean wayyy back and feel my feelings and not over work.. well.. he just may slip away.. and that does not feel good.
    Any tips would be great..

  20.  #20Mel on May 2, 2011 at 8:35 am


    In response to my first questions about being secretive and closing the facebook window, he neither confirmed nor denied it. He just got angry, took his computer and left the room.

    In regards to my second question, my exact words were “Would you tell me if something were going on between you and someone else?” and he yelled “Yes, I would tell you. Who do you think I would be cheating with?” When I suggested a certain person, he laughed meanly and told me to leave him alone.

  21.  #21The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 8:35 am

    #8 Mel, I can only speak for myself on this one, I dunno if many, or most men react in the same way, but if a girlfriend comes up with a serious problem, I adress this, and try to find a solution that works for us. I wouldn’t come up with half assed ideas, like that you should intitiate sex, only to ignore you when you do so. That sounds weird.

    Sure, you probably didn’t find the best way to commiunicat with him, And I dunno what kind of a guy he is. Still, from what you have told us in the last days, I have the impression he’s holding back with something. And I find that his failure to honestly say what’s troubling him is a reason for concerns. He can’t simply ignore that there’s a problem, and that his participation is necessary for solving it. Maybe you should bring the idea of an appointment at a marriage counselor into play now, dunno.

  22.  #22Mel on May 2, 2011 at 8:38 am

    I have tried suggesting counselling, but he’s not interested. 🙁

  23.  #23Jim on May 2, 2011 at 8:42 am

    5: Mel,

    I presume the information you’ve given is “accurate” about both you and him.

    3; The Lurker
    Pretty much sums it up, in my book anyway.

    Depending how far down this road you two are with one another on this matter and “Especially considering the other problems we are having.”

    To me, it looks like ego’s, emotions, hurt feelings, anger, neglect, rejection and walls are already in the mix. That is a problem.


    I refer again, back to #3 The Lurker, “Because, of course, it takes two!”

    Just be careful you don’t hold yourself responsible for his actions. Of course you may bare some responsibility for his initial reactions to you, and he the same with you.

    Since the above blog is about Hollywood retakes, then it would be appropriate for me to say, to both you and your husband, at this juncture-BEWARE- There is a “Point of No Return.” Even though “all” relationships can be saved and become loving and harmonious.

    So!! You two have some soul searching and decisions to make, as for what direction your marriage is going- just look at the decisions both of you are continuing to make with one another. How you treat each other. He you. You him.

    And it is true, one person can and in most cases does destroy love.

    Funny thing about life, if we don’t know how to be a race car driver, get in a race car, race, we may get lucky and survive till we’ve learned, in most cases, if one stays, they will surely wreck and the severity of that crash will have depended on how fast they were going, what they hit, how they hit.. Those are some of the factors. The result? INJURIES. and thats in a race car.

    Your situation is much more dire… you and your husband are in the rat race. That can be much more dangerous, at least in a car race, there are standards, rules, regulations, safety and officials to see that everybody is qualified to race and races fairly.

    So my advice… Don’t run, walk. Take it easy on you and your man, him too with you. SLOW DOWN, the signs are everywhere that there is danger ahead. STOP if you have to, re group, get resupplied with one another, be careful of interior and exterior influences that may play on your psych and emotions. You can get past this if you both want to, with yourselves and each other. Keep your eyes on the prize, each other, love and lots of other goodies.

    My very best wishes for you and your husband,

  24.  #24Mel on May 2, 2011 at 8:45 am

    Thanks Jim 🙂

  25.  #25The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 8:47 am

    20 Mel, that he avoided to answer your first question is troubloing, imho. My initial reaction would be to tell the truth, if it’s something that doesn’t seriously effect the relationship: That it was a coincidence, or a male friend telling some juicy jokes, or that I was looking at porn, whatever. I would only try to run from answering the question if I thought it is something that is dangerous for the marriage. Other guys would even blatantly lie. Well, I dunno how your hubby ticks, but I would be concerned.

    As for his answer to the second question, it depends on how he defines “cheating” for himself. Many folks who are active online don’t even see virtual sex (with naughty texting) as cheating. It’s probably self serving, but I see a difference between that and real cheating, too. So, in his mind, he may be right that he isn’t cheating, but he still knows his behaviour is somewhat questionable for a married guy.

    I understand you brought the name of a “real life” woman up? Ok, that was probably the wrong guess. But it may be the case that he has something going on on FB. And that his sexual fantasies, that he doesn’t want to tell you about, play a role in this. Regardless if that’s true, or if he really feel pressured by you, or whatever, there is a very real problem in your marriage (imho) and it’s about time he honestly talks about this.

  26.  #26Mel on May 2, 2011 at 8:52 am

    I agree we need to talk about the problems in the marriage, but so far he’s been very unwilling to do so. He says “talking about this makes things worse!”

    So maybe I just ned to lean REALLY REALLY far back for a while and let him come to me when he feels comfortable?

    This is SO difficult!

  27.  #27The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 8:53 am

    Mel, Jim makes good points in #23! Of course, it’s very important at this point how you both deal with the problem. Because, indeed, “one person can and in most cases does destroy love.” So, caution! Imho this situation requires the help of a real relationship coach. I guess nobody here wants to be responsible if his/her well intended advice turns out to have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.

  28.  #28The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 8:55 am

    #26 “talking about this makes things worse!”
    This only makes sense to me if he wants to hide something from you that he fears will hurt you. But, ok, I’m a rather open, communicative guy, and he may have much more emotional problems talking about his feelings…

  29.  #29Turtle Girl on May 2, 2011 at 8:59 am


    I feel very sad just hearing your story. It is difficult to say what is going on, since you do not know and he is not telling you. But these things don’t happen “out of the blue”. If your gut is telling you something is wrong, then something more than likely is.

    I just went through a similar feeling that something wasn’t right. I told the guy that although I didn’t know what is was, I was getting a feeling of uneasiness and wariness. I am still waiting for a reasonable explanation.

    These things are heart-wrenching and frustrating.
    All I know is that when I focus on him and the what I feel like crap. It’s like a pace and pace the floor in my mind and all for naught. RR is right to say stay on you and how you feel. I went through this with an ex and the whole computer secrecy ended up being a porn addiction he lied about. That was tip of iceberg.
    We ended up splitting over it. Secrecy in a relationship is a trigger for me. I trust totally until you give me a reason not to. But when my gut says “uh oh this isn’t good” then I listen to it.

    For me total self care/esteem came when I realized that I was ready to walk on ANY man who could not be honest with me. I could walk on ANY man who had some kind of hidden agenda. It’s a deal breaker for me. There is a saying-you are only as sick as your secrets.

    I hope you get this worked out. I empathize. xxoo

  30.  #30The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 9:05 am

    #29 Hmm, Turtle, his porn addiction was something that you couldn’t deal with, or was his denial, til the very end, the point?

    I have neve been married, and so I probably have an idealized view of marriage. Imho stuff like gambling, drugs, porn addiction etc is something that both partners should be able to talk about. Because, of course, it’s much easier to get this under control when both work on it. But I also know some examples where the addiction was so strong that even the most loving wife eventually had to give up, in order to preserve her own sanity…

  31.  #31Turtle Girl on May 2, 2011 at 9:24 am


    First let me say that as far as porn goes, I don’t have any particular objection to it. I have watched it myself on occasion and it can be pretty sexy depending on situation and person you are with.

    Having said that, anything-porn, shopping, booze, etc etc if out of control (daily visits etc ) is a problem.
    His porn addiction was one of many things that caused problems too big to deal with. He was also a “screamer” over minor issues like loading a dishwasher “incorrectly”. Basically he was just way too effed up for me to deal with and I have no desire to be any man’s therapist or Mommy. No thanks.

    In the end I realized he had been a very good actor prior to our marriage and once there, all the sh*t started to leak out.

    It is easy to say that if you love someone that any problems that come up, even addictions, could be discussed and dealt with. But in real life this is not always the case. Life in the world we live in now is already inherently stressful, without throwing in a bunch of other problems in the mix. I solve that by not dating anyone any more with any hint of addiction. I recently met a man who was a sweetie, but then he told me he smokes pot almost every evening. Oh, ok. Not judging, but see ya.

    I just don’t need it. Want to be with me? Then you have to basically be a grown up. Normal as they say.
    Nothing weird of kinky or tilted to one side. lol
    I have become on of those women RR talks about-I have a high degree of difficulty! I don’t accept bad behavior from men!

  32.  #32Mel on May 2, 2011 at 9:32 am

    Lurker, Re: 28

    Yeah, that’s what I’m feeling too. There must be some reason he doesn’t want to talk about it.

    My best friend recently went through something like this (only in the reverse). She was having an affair. She was very secretive and did not answer even direct questions from her husband (her husband had guessed the right person even). She explains it to me that she didn’t actually want things to end with her husband, so she never told him the truth about the affair because she knew that would be the end. At this point, she’s ended her affair and is doing better in the marriage, but I don’t think she ever really confessed the whole truth.

    I had no idea this was even going on, but one day I asked her for her advice on whether or not I was just being crazy or did I have something and she told me the story.

    She says that it sounds like my husband does want to work things out with me but that she thinks he’s afraid that if he tells me whatever is actually going on, that I will leave.

    Recently he said “We just need to stop talking about this and start to enjoy each others’ company again.” This is the same conversation where he said “talking just makes things worse.”

    She said she felt the same way… She said that forgetting about the problems for a while and just focusing on reconnecting is what saved their marriage. I’m not sure I agree with her never telling him the truth though. She had her reasons. Her husband was ignoring her much as mine is right now… which lead to her not feeling loved or appreciated.

    I know I’m not perfect. I liked the post earlier about realizing that a marriage is between two imperfect people. I have a tendancy toward insecurity (especially when things feel unstable) and I can act out emotionally and regret it later. I’m working on this (and while it might not always seem so, I think I’m improving in this regard). If something has happened, I can forgive him (as long as he is truly remorseful and completely ends things with the other person). But I think it is only fair that I be able to make choices based on the whole picture.

    Maybe he’s not cheating. I hope not. But some things have and are being kept from me for some reason.

    Sometimes i wish he would stumble upon this blog and see that I really do want things to be better.

    My heart hurts.

  33.  #33Laughing Goddess on May 2, 2011 at 9:41 am

    Mel: Okay, I might be in the minority here but I feel very hestitant to jump to conclusions about whether or not he is cheating.

    It just doesn’t feel good to me.

    We attract what we choose to focus on.

    If I was in your situation, I would get a professional relationship coach. If he doesn’t want to go, you can do it yourself.

    I don’t think that this situation is hopeless.

    There are many many things he could have been doing on the computer. He could have been looking at a gift for you, or reading an article on depression or sex drive and felt embarrassed. Who knows?

    I would be very very careful about going down the path of assuming he is cheating personally. If he’s not, accussing him could just make the situation worst.

    And you could drive yourself crazy wondering. All in all, it’s not the path I would choose to take.


  34.  #34Mel on May 2, 2011 at 9:45 am


    Thanks! That is the approach I would prefer to take, but sometimes anxiety gets the better of me. Especially when things like this have been happening a lot lately.

    Getting out of this cycle where the more anxious I get the more secretve he becomes is daunting!

  35.  #35Laughing Goddess on May 2, 2011 at 9:57 am

    I know Mel. It can become a vicious cycle.

    I truly believe that this can work out.

    I have to run but before I do, I’m sending you lots of love and support and clarity.

    Hugs hugs and more hugs!

    If you want to talk more about this later, I’d be happy to.

  36.  #36Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 10:03 am

    Secretive with their cell phone-

    Secretive with their/(the) computer-

    Not being where they say they would be-

    Those are the major signs of cheating.

    Lying about it? Very bad sign.

    Accusing their partner of cheating? Almost an admission.

  37.  #37Laughing Goddess on May 2, 2011 at 10:03 am

  38.  #38Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 10:12 am

    LG I don’t think you are the minority but conclusions one way or another wil not help. The situation is that there is doubt because nothing is being offered by him. Both Jim and Lurker makes good points but only Mel is living the situation. He will need time to process his anger around what might be his experience of control issues. The problem IMHO is that she will focus on his behavior and in doing that automatically invites him to focus on hers. Unfortunately that is usually how the cookie crumbles. As Jim says there is a point of no return. Blame, criticism, attack, defense does not have a track record of building a harmonious relationship. He might very well be only concerned with your happiness Mel and might even be thinking you both might be happier apart. I am not saying that is the case but only a possibility. I think really looking at what both wants and being honest about it is the best way to go.

  39.  #39Luzydel on May 2, 2011 at 10:16 am

    My question of the day…

    Why is so easy to have an imaginary relationship, and why is so hard to be open to a real one?

    Some things are happening to me right now, someone who I sort of pushed away is back and willing to give me whAt I want. However I’m still hung on D who is just a figment of my imagination and only gave me crumbs.
    Why doles the real thing scares me so much?

  40.  #40Laughing Goddess on May 2, 2011 at 10:20 am

    There are many paths a person can take based on the evidence.

    I am merely offering an alternative way of looking at the situation…an alternative view based on what Rori is teaching here.

  41.  #41Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 10:29 am


    Just some thoughts:

    In imaginary relationships there is less “work”?

    You don’t have to deal with someone else’s “schtuff” on a regualr basis? Or them calling you out on yours?

    Sex is good in imagination, not involving the ‘compromise’ it sometimes does with someone you interact with on a daily, weekly basis?

    What we want…sometimes fluctuates…isn’t a constant–so an ‘imaginary lover’ gives us what we want, when we want/ need it–whereas ordinary people cannot be that intuitive? 🙂

  42.  #42SummerBaby on May 2, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Lurker, if you are happy with your “established brand”, then I am happy. the word lurker almost has a nice little croaking quality to it anyway.

    😉 how’s the pond today?

  43.  #43Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 10:37 am

    These words from the post really spoke to me “should he decide to open up and let you know the truth about what’s going on with him he’ll KNOW that you will not judge him, you will not correct him, you will not make him wrong, you will simply allow the connection to happen.”

    He has to decide. I also sense that allowing the connection is about dropping everything as if it does not matter. Only the connection matters. It brings to mind Hilary Clinton’s response to Monica Lewinsky debacle.

  44.  #44Ella on May 2, 2011 at 10:40 am

    Hey Gang,

    I did it!!!!!!!!

    I went to the pub last night and he was there and I did leanback and he came to me and connected and I used FMs and he connected more, and then pub closed and he assumed we were going back together.

    I said No. I am going home.

    He wanted to come, I said No I am going on my own. Then he said a group were going to his. I said ok I would go for a bit then go home.

    When we got there, there was no one there, so I didn’t go in and said I was going home.

    I thought he would follow to walk me home and make sure I got home safe but he didn’t. Maybe he was expecting me to go in but I didn’t, I turned around and left.

    And I called my house mate from the end of the road and he came and collected me and walked me home which felt good, although I was crying cus of my guy letting me walk alone 🙁

    And I feel REALLY GOOD that I held my boundary even though he didn’t step up to walk me home.

    I feel pleased with myself.

    I know he likes me and now he knows he has to make an effort if he wants my time and attention.

    Although my housemate did say that he is taking the piss out of me. But then he just thinks that he isn’t a step up guy!

    Anyway, that was my babystep as planned.

    Other than that feeling very tired from a weekend of partying and also my housemate just split up with his g,friend who I am also friends with, so that is kind of akward, as I have just moved into the house with them (well now just him) and I am kinda in the middle.

    I am sure it will be fine, however right now he is really low and it feels kinda weird at home!

  45.  #45Turtle Girl on May 2, 2011 at 10:43 am

    Good Go Ella! Baby steps leading to firm boundaries! Yeah!

  46.  #46Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 10:44 am


    How many of us are comfortable “emulating” Hilary Clinton?

    In a way, I very much admire her. In another, I’ve always kind of wondered if the way she handled her husband’s infidieity had to do with her own career ambitions, rather than how she felt about him as a life partner.

  47.  #47Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 10:45 am

    Luzydel “why does the real thing scare me so much”. I believe that was addressed in Rori’s post around EFT where she suggests that we are all afraid of intimacy because we don’t accept ourselves with our flaws so we feel no one will love us. I would read that post again in this context. I understand that the person coming back is one of the possibilities that happen when we focus on loving ourselves as you were recently doing. I would not be surpirsed if D comes back as you start focussing on this new person. I understand it to be all in the energy.

  48.  #48Ella on May 2, 2011 at 10:46 am


    I know how you feel!


  49.  #49Laughing Goddess on May 2, 2011 at 10:57 am

    Mel: I still haven’t gotten to work yet. I started reading some of Rori’s old posts and well, I was enjoying them so much, I couldn’t stop.

    This is how she responded to a situation somewhat similar to yours but that had gone way farther.

    “Here’s a letter from Ann, and my answer is perhaps “harsh” – and sometimes that’s what we all need – another perspective from someone who doesn’t know you. And that’s what we’re all doing for each other here!

    “Rori, Well, I have been reading just about everything I can find at this site and others and have found some “ah ha” moments in everyone’s comments. . . I just wanted to throw my situation out here and see what others, an especially Rori’s, opinion may be:

    I have been with the same man for 24 years, married for 22 years, we have three grown children that I stayed home and raised. During the course of the years I have ventured out and mostly finished my schooling while raising the kids, taking care of our home, and being there for my husband when ever he was at home, (he drove over the road for several years and just quit doing so about 8 years ago).

    Over the years I had learn that while he was gone he had what he calls a “private life.” This private life consisted of various degrees of porn but I never thought he ever became physically or emotionally involved with anyone other then me. Over the span of 12 to 15 years I believed everything my husband ever told me. Ranging from very important topics to very minute discussions because he was always a man of integrity to me and our kids. He lived by the saying, “I don’t like liars and don’t have any time of day for them.”

    Well, as I began to grow and change I found out that during his brief stays at home and eventually when he was home full time that when we were talking just about anything that he would only tell me incomplete stories, or the half truth of a situation so I, in his words, wouldn’t have to deal with the problem or what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her.

    After catching him several, several times over the years regarding his half truths, I could not longer believe a word that came out of his mouth and became very bitter, angry, hurt, and shut down in our relationship. I also became very suspicious of his every movement and lost the “trust factor” in our lives. I felt like I was being replaced by the porn, be it magazines, vhs, dvd’s, or what ever he could find free on the computer. I shut down even more and so did our sex life for the last 5 years.

    In more recent events I thought I would give our relationship one more saving grace, and instead of taking a vacation alone that we would go together. This was a huge dilemma on his part and he just had a real hard time committing to going but finally did. I thought we had a great week . . .the first time we have been alone for entire week without our kids . . .

    Three weeks after our vacation things were back to “normal” no communication, half truths, and complete seclusion from one another. He works third shift in a “factory” and I was up very late working on a paper for work and decide to reach out and do what I thought at the time was a thoughtful jester and take him lunch. As I got to the parking lot I saw my husband getting into his car with a female co-worker.

    They sat and talked, laughed etc . . .I was shocked and ended up sitting in my car the entire night trying to believe what my eyes just saw. I never told him . . .I kept it to myself. A week later he approached me and told me that he still loved me but wasn’t in love with me and asked me how I felt. I told him that I loved him and was still in love with him & I had to leave the discussion because all I could envision was him in the car with her . . . Two days following I asked him if we could talk some more and that I thought maybe if we could look at our relationship and try to date one another that might help . . .he agreed! I was happy and thought that this might work for us.

    The next morning before I left for work and he was coming home I could see rage in his eyes and asked what was going on . . .”Some guy at work approached XXXXX (female co-worker) & asked her if she and I were having an affair.” I kept my mouth shut because I was wondering the same thing . . .I then stated, “I don’t know what you want me to say, but all I can tell you is if you approach this “guy” and say anything to him then you will be admitting to having an affair w/XXXXX.”

    All I have ever asked for in our relationship have been 5 things that tie together and one doesn’t work without the other: Communication, The Truth not Half Truths, Transparency, No Hiding (shut down), and to be 50/50 in all Major Decisions.

    Two more days later, that morning as my husband began to leave work he called me and asked if I wanted to meet for caffee at the cafe in town! i thought great maybe he is going to try this dating thing . . .Sure I will be right down. Then he said, ” well XXXXX is going to go with us since she wants to go over her notes from work and I only have a $1 on me so can you bring the checkbook with you?” I said “NO! Enjoy your morning I have better things to do!” and hung up! He came home an hour and a half later . . ..I had already left the house . . .They weren’t at the cafe . . .I drove by there.

    Later that night holding my composure as we where out with our daughter and getting back into the car, she heard/saw her Dad’s cell phone go off and told him that someone was calling: He had a major panic attack!!! He said it was work and that he was off that weekend and wasn’t going to answer. Well our youngest son also works there and was working that night. I told him to call back to make sure he was okay . . .My husband hesitated, and didn’t want to, took his sweet time to compose himself thinking that I or our daughter didn’t see the panic in his voice or demeanor. He finally called work, the supervisor said our son was fine but maybe he called and he would check. My husband hung up the phone and guarded his phone like a pit bull in heat for the rest of the night . . .He even slept on his phone that is how panicked he was.

    The next morning, as my husband was in the shower, I heard his phone ring from underneath his pillow. It was actually a text message under the name of the company that he works for. . . .A factory doesn’t have texting compatibilities . . . Odd, So I picked up the phone and the message simply read: “sooo sorry!” I looked at the number and jotted it down quickly and found it to be a cell number that you can’t trace on like to the owner. I called the number and the XXXXX answered the phone. I quickly hung up put the phone back where I found it. I got all the kids out of the house and made it look like to my husband we had the whole day to ourselves. After he got out of the shower . . .He was happy go lucky and there was not a sign of panic in him at all. And had to calm down I was shaking like a leaf and so many things were running through my mind.

    Finally, after I reached my calm and we were driving down the road, I exclaimed, “So tell me when you jumped into XXXXX car yesterday and drove off from work doesn’t that make it look like something is gong on with you two?” He said, “I never thought of it that way.” So tell me I said,”What does it look like or mean when you hid her phone number under the company name and she text you “sooo sorry”?” he slammed on the brakes of the car and tried to turn around and go home . . . I wouldn’t let him. You see if we would have gone home he wouldn’t have talked to me he would have only hidden in our bedroom for the remainder of the day.

    To finish this long, long story, I took his phone and began texting her . . .As soon as I said (acting like I was my husband) that I needed to make a decision if I was staying or going this marriage I need to know where I stand with you . . . .She ran as fast as a cheetah!!! She said she needed to give her marriage a shot one more time, made the point that his kids were grown and how would you deal with helping raise mine (He would run because he didn’t raise his own kids) . . .Once I told the F*&%$ B(&^%$ that she was talking to me not my husband. She simply replied “I C” Then about ten minutes later she text again “well maybe if you would show your husband some affection we wouldn’t be in this mess!” Well, she pushed my button and I sent all the text messages to her husbands phone with an explanation of the situation. She hasn’t texted or spoke with my husband since!

    Right at this moment I know that all the things I have ever asked for in my marriage he gave to XXXXX female co-worker, and only kissed her once. If I hadn’t found the phone that morning with her text . . .they would probably be sleeping together. We are trying to work on our marriage. . . .I am still on the fence if I should stay or go . . .Or will the future just continue to be riddled with half truths . . . Any and all opinions are welcome . . .
    Thxs Ann”

    Ann, Welcome, and you’re not going to like this.

    Don’t read if you don’t want to hear.

    Your letter is fabulously dramatic, movie-worthy, and for every half-truth he told, so did you.

    Truth isn’t something you withhold because the other person is.

    To withhold sex and affection from your husband because you don’t trust him is no less insane than what he was doing with this imaginary relationship he developed in his mind.

    To snoop in his phone because you can’t speak plainly to him is all within your control.

    If I was uncomfortable with what a man was saying to me because I believed there was something else going on, I’d talk with him about it. And if talk wasn’t enough, I’d consider leaving at that point.

    To drag on a marriage that is not a marriage for 5 years because you can’t get at the truth is not a good option for anyone of us (and yet – I hear about this situation happening all the time).

    If you are now “working” on your marriage TOGETHER – then all this was a GOOD thing. Thank that woman.

    Someone in an emotional logjam has to go first…and that’s YOU.

    Learn here how to speak in Feeling Messages. How to Listen at Level 2 (in the ebook) to a man.

    And most of all: to replace your instinctive defense system with compassion for yourself and love for yourself.

    This is not about what “he did” or “didn’t do.”  It’s not about his lying, or your avoidance of the truth and, therefore, emotional intimacy, about all the anger between you…it’s none of that.

    It’s all about fear, and habit, and upbringing, and letting your subconscious, traumatic patterns take you over and run you and steal your life from you.

    Now’s the time to dig into yourself.  Find out who you are – and let him see who you are.  Get counseling if you think that might help – anything to get you talking TO and WITH each other – not behind each other.

    Love, Rori”

  50.  #50Daria on May 2, 2011 at 10:59 am

    Yay! I went to sleep early at 10!

    And I was thinking about 19man and wow I have 3 missed calls and a text from him… I wonder if he’s back in town! 🙂

    I dreamt I was in new York.

    And then at a friends house and 3 of my best friends over time were there.

    And them a cute black goat jumped in.

    And then I went to a farm and there were a lot of dogs.

  51.  #51Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:02 am

    Aldo in new York I was by a hospital my uncle used to work at in Romania

    And these two guys were flirting w me.

    Then I went to a liquor store and they didn’t have what I wanted so I wound up not getting anything.

  52.  #52Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 11:05 am

    32: Mel says:

    “My heart hurts.”

    awwww….I feel for you, Mel. hugs. It sucks to be in that unsure place of knowing that something is wrong, but not knowing exactly what it is, or where things stand in the relationship because you are feeling that there are things being hidden. It can make you feel as if you are going a little crazy.

    You don’t want to brush it off as just paranoia, because you can really sense that something is off,
    but you don’t know what it is and he is being withholding, and perhaps unsure of his feelings or afraid of sharing. Probing seems to make it worse.

    Yet, you don’t want to see everything as evidence of foul play, either, which would cause you to see him as more and more dishonest, then you keep looking at him more and more through those eyes, only for it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    A tale for you, for whatever it’s worth…..

    The last relationship that I was in has not survived because of a broken trust. The funny thing is, I was trusting myself enough to not be mistrustful of him, or wonder who was texting him, etc. I was very relaxed around it.

    That is, until he said something about thanking me for trusting him enough not to suspect him of stealing things. I won’t go into details, but this was said after an argument where we almost broke up.

    I told him that it never entered my mind in the whole time, for a moment, to not trust him. I wondered why he would say such a thing. I didn’t tell him that him saying that put up a red flag.

    After that, lies of ommission in other areas started to carry more weight with me. I trusted my feelings that games were being played, so i began to question his intentions.

    He wanted so much not to be seen as dishonest.
    even though he had probably not dealt with all his own demons around it, that all his mental and emotional gyrations around trying to come off as honest, caused him to see everything I said and my requests for authenticity and sincere discussion about what we both wanted, as accusations.

    (sorry for the run on sentence)

    Because he was actually always looking for evidence of being indicted for dishonesty, rather than as my requests for working on better ways to communicate, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    At this point, I don’t know what his intentions are or ever were, how he is viewing the relationship, what he might be learning from all this. That’s called no closure. In order to stay as sane as possible, I have committed to complete acceptance of this not knowing.

    for what it’s worth.

    I know your situation is different, there is more investment there, and I really wish for you and he to be able to get to the root of the matter, so that your relationship can have a chance of surviving.

    I sincerely hope you can find some peace for yourself soon, Mel. You seem like such an amazing lady.


  53.  #53Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 11:10 am

    46: Lily T says:

    “How many of us are comfortable “emulating” Hilary Clinton?

    In a way, I very much admire her. In another, I’ve always kind of wondered if the way she handled her husband’s infidieity had to do with her own career ambitions, rather than how she felt about him as a life partner.”

    IMO, maybe some of both.

    (Really like your posts, Lily T.)


  54.  #54Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:17 am

    Mel – I think ‘blowing’ up may be a lot worse for the relationship than you imagine.

    In a leaned back state: take two

    You are not even paying attention to what he’s doing on the computer.

    If you walk by and he closes a window, you can say… ‘whoa that felt weird’

    Then he says ‘what’

    Then you can say… ‘I felt kinda bad I hot the impression that you closed a window right when I came by. Whatsup?’

    I’m not saying he’s not cheating or he is or whatever. But to heal the relationship you have to really do your part of making it safe. These ‘blow up’ scenes can do huge damage.

    As can leaning forward and paying attention to him rather than you.

    It sounds like you really need to get out and flirt with other men. I say flirt because you’re married and may not be at a place where you want coffee dates.

    But without male attention it seems you are over focusing on him.

    I would live life like I’m single, and let him chase me and come into my life when he can. This is what leaning back is like.

  55.  #55Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:21 am

    Liz – ‘i didn’t tell him this was a red flag’

    It sounds like this is where the problems started. You withheld your feelings and your energy turned suspicious.

    So there was a double track now on the outside you say u want better communication

    In the inside you are withholding feelings of fear and suspicion.

    So of course a man will pick up on that energy and likely resist the outside attempts to communicate.

  56.  #56Lilybelle on May 2, 2011 at 11:28 am


    Do you believe that we have to pay over and over and over for past mistakes? Even if we have been forgiven and have also forgiven?


  57.  #57Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 11:34 am

    RE 56 Lilybelle is this in reference to the situation with your sister?

    IMHO if we move on and are dealing with different people we only pay over and over again because we have not dealt with our own unconscious around the situation so we make ourselves pay or we hire others to torture us for it. This is my belief so I keep coming back to myself when things happen.

  58.  #58Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 11:34 am

    RE 56 Lilybelle is this a belief that could use some EFT to heal?

  59.  #59Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 11:35 am

    #53 Elizabeth,

    I’ve liked your posts as well. Smile.

  60.  #60Mel on May 2, 2011 at 11:40 am

    Thanks for your advice and mostly your support everyone!

    I’m going to lean WAAAAAY back and do as Elizabeth says and commit to complete acceptance of this not knowing.

    Asking directly or trying to talk about it doesn’t work.

    Trying to investigate the situation myself doesn’t work and makes me feel horrible.

    He’s intent on resisting and as long as I’m intent on controlling the situation, we’re going to get nowhere.

    Non closure is VERY hard to do. Yikes!

  61.  #61Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 11:43 am

    RE 22 From my understanding suggesting counselling would be masculine energy. It occurred to me that maybe indicating that you would be going to counselling for yourself to heal your issues would be focussing on self.But then again it could possibly feel disrespectful because it could be understood that personal things would be shared with an outsider. Possibly things that have not been shared with the partner.

  62.  #62LonePlum on May 2, 2011 at 11:43 am


    Brenda emailed me to point me towards your posts.

    I had to search several threads to read them, but I did.

    I feel proud of you and happy for you.
    It was perfect!
    You were efficient, you used as little words as possible and elegant.
    You wanted your right to be given back to you, it was given back to you.
    You staid on your bridge
    You did not even peep on his bridge
    You did not mess up with his world, you minded your own business.
    Just you on your bridge, a princess who says what she wants and ignores everything but the result.
    And she keeps silent. No explaining, no justifying, no apologizing, no thanking, no begging, no nagging, no drama.
    She lets time go and when he thinks he saved himself money at her expenses, she reminds his debt. Just a simple reminder of the fact. No drama.
    She will not allow any man to abuse her on the account she’s been told money issues are dirty. She knows it is her right, it is clean, it is fair, it is morally right to get her money back.
    She still doubts herself, once in a while, old patterns coming back.
    The situation feels dirty, she feels guilty, she wonders if she should insist so much to get the money back.

    But she is no doormat.
    Doormats become dirty, men sweep their feet on them

    She is a free clean woman. She can tell him to pay his debt, it won’t make her dirty because he won’t step on her, she is safe, standing tall on her bridge. She is learning where is the limit of her bridge, she is watching now, she won’t let him pull her off it.
    He will keep his dirt to himself, out of her bridge.
    He is the one who is forcing a woman to ask for HER own money
    He is the one who is dirty.
    He should have paid the hospital directly, he should have not let a woman pay. He should not have made her ask several times for his own debt to be paid.

    She is the clean one in this situation, she owes money to nobody, she owes nothing to nobody. She took care of herself, of everything, she even took care of his own debt to the hospital.

    She keeps strong on her bridge and ignores his calls
    She knows she is not dirty, on the contrary she is quite elegant.
    She has never received money from a man. She is totally independent and clean.
    So many women live from their man’s money or get something from them. But not Meemee, she does not get material benefits from a man.
    She has never spent money to have a man either. She respects herself totally. So many women give money to their man or are providers with their man. But not Meemee, she respects herself, she does not pay to keep a man.
    She is her own woman. Her life has never, not once, depended on a man’s life or a man’s money.
    Meemee has never, not once, allowed money to be part of her relationships. Not from her to them and not from them to her.
    Meemee has never, not once, influenced her destiny to fit her love for a man. She has never allowed a man to influence her decisions about her studies, her work, her future, never, not once.
    She is exactly where she had planned to be and she is doing what she had planned to be doing and heading to where she had planned to head, before she even met X.
    She owns exactly the amount of money she had planed to own even before she met X. She gained no money from him, she lost no money because of him.
    She does not allow a man to change her destiny, as much infatuated as she might have felt.
    You won’t find cleaner than Meemee nor more elegant and more independent and more in power of her own life.

    She is wanting her own money. His action caused a hole on her bridge.
    She is minding her own bridge when she asks for the money to be put back on her bridge.
    She is not minding his bridge at all.
    She has learnt that minding others’ bridge brings sorrow.

    And she ignores his calls and she says “no” to the employee who tells her to take his call
    She has learnt to trust herself, to keep her chin up and to keep safe on her bridge. She does not obey to the pull towards out of her bridge. Even when the old pattern makes her feel guilty for protecting her rights.
    F*ck guilt.
    He is the one who made it last so long
    He is the one who ignores she said to leave HER money at the receptionist.
    He is the one trying to write a messy end.
    She is out of it. She writes HER end and she wants it clean and inspiring.
    All it takes is to keep on her bridge where no man can sweep his dirty feet.
    She is on clean territory on her bridge.
    Insisting that her rights be respected is clean.
    Taking care of her needs is clean.
    It inspires respect
    And she keeps on her bridge.
    And she wins
    She got HER money where and when she said and without speaking to him.
    THE END.
    HER end.
    Wonderful 🙂


  63.  #63Luzydel on May 2, 2011 at 11:44 am

    I wish I could cd without any hesitation right now. I am just taking care of some things that need to be settled right now, before they get worse. I am usually doing the flirting,
    smiling etc. But not setting online dates right now. D is not what I want, but I cannot help feeling so drawn to him. Cute brazilian is being nice, I like the fact that he uses my first name instead of “babe”, “honey” etc. He also has it toguether is a VP at his company and is looking for a committed relationship. I am not repulsed by him, I actually like him, but I also feel like running away from him.

    We will meet next week after he comes back from a business trip. He asked (actually begged) so why not?
    Funny how things work out some times…

  64.  #64Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:49 am

    Trigger – !! “She has never received money from a man. She is totally independent and clean.”

    I feel angry!


    I feel judged and awful reading this.

    It is totally ok and sirenlike to receive gifts help and money from a man!

    It does Not make a woman unclean or not independent (especially since we are all interdependent)

  65.  #65Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:50 am

    Feeling sooo angry!

  66.  #66Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:51 am

    I feel shaky I feel furious I feel shamed and outraged and icky and like I’m being told I’m dirty I feel really really mad.

  67.  #67Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:51 am

    I feel like kicking someone.

  68.  #68Daria on May 2, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    That feels like heat in my head and squeezing in my stomach. And I live the hear in my head and squeezing in my stomach. And that feels like sad. I love my sad. And that feels likeProtect!! Women from thinking it’s dirty or unhelpful to Receive from a man … And protect! From thunking someone is better or cleaner than them for Any reason.

    And that feels like shakiness and pouty lips. I love my shakiness and pouty lips. And that feels like. Sigh. I love my sigh and that feels like smile and squeezing in the back of my head. I love my smile and squeezing in the back of my head… And that feels like. Hhhhhmmm. I love my hhh hm and that feels like giggle smile. I love my giggle smile and that feels like lifting head and twisting neck . I live my lifting head and twisting neck and that feels like. Burp. I love my burp and that feels like… Smile. I love my smile and that feels like sigh of relief . I love my sigh of relief abd that feels like. Giggle out loud. I love my giggle out loud and that feels like… Thoughts of aligning acc mind center with body. I love my thoughts and that feels like big breath. I love my big breath. And that feels like… Asking to clear a GAABA center memory and that feels like. Smiles and giggles. 🙂

  69.  #69Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    EWWWWWW…..She has never received money from a man. She is totally independent and clean.
    So many women live from their man’s money or get something from them.

    Wow, poor Meemee if she ever gets flowers – no a wedding ring…she’s gonna be dirty!

    How in the world can Meemee’s recovery from trauma be metaphored into clean and dirty and SO MANY WOMEN….live from their man’s money??

    Feels like finger pointing, rage shaking, BAD BAD BAD women….

    Instead of a bad situation for BOTH people that ended as well as it can.

    And I personally don’t like being told I’m “dirty,” if my boyfriend pays for my goceries.

    I don’t like the whole dirty (who*re) statement at all.

    I’ve never felt anything more judgemental here.

    I will try and feel compassion for those who see the world so dreadfully compartamentalized into them vs. us…dirty vs. clean…one good one bad…and ONLY one right way.



  70.  #70Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Lurker…your mischieviousness is showing…so you knew your name was slightly deviant??? Kinky boy!! and now you appear as a harmless small frog?

    I’m intrigued. lol bet it doesn’t surprise you.


  71.  #71Lilybelle on May 2, 2011 at 12:05 pm


    Daria Doll,

    You can kick me, apparently I “derserve” it.

    Sorry, I am just working through some NV’s, self-judgements and “words” form someone else.

    I’m NOT making light of your feelings, AT ALL. Please know that.


  72.  #72Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    Feels good to me to pay for my “wants” with money I earned myself.

    Feels good to pay for “our” living expenses with money a man contributes because we live together. Feels like partnership. Feels like he is taking care of “us”.

    What feel “dirty”? Taking without givng.

  73.  #73tinque on May 2, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    “Being defensive WITHOUT denying the accusations looks like the reaction of a guilty conscience to me. ”

    Not necessarily. Some people, K is one of them, would take offense at an accusation and rather than dignify it with a denial, not say anything at all.

    That said Mel, I feel increasingly concerned about his behavior. It feels bad to me, as it does to you. I don’t think he’s cheating or even chatting with another real woman. He’s likely looking at porn more regularly than you thought and/or chatting with virtual women.

    You said you felt bad having him shut windows as he does when you walk by. You can say also say as someone suggested above that you feel left out, that you feel really disconnected from him, and that you miss him.

    If he gets angry at this….not good.

    Yes your blow up was not great no matter what he is or isn’t doing, but his retreat into grumpiness and sleeping on the couch is not great either.

    I really feel concerned here.


  74.  #74Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Daria, thanks for your comments 🙂

    I see what you are saying, but I also think what you’re referring to are merely symptoms of some deeper things that were in place from the beginning.

    I didn’t withhold feelings. I told him I was uncomfortable with the way things were. But when he thanked me for trusting him, I didn’t realize until much later, after I walked, that it was a red flag. That’s why it didn’t occur to me to say something.
    At first I just accepted it as gratitude.
    (in hindsight, I see that wasn’t clear from the way I said it in my post.)

    But then it dawned on me later, why would someone thank you for trusting them unless they had had experience with not being trusted before?
    And why were they not trusted? There are two sides to every story. I was told by him that his last wife didn’t trust him. So…..why? Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

    We had a wonderful, wonderful time together, most times, but I thought I was well within my rights to ask for clarification on what kind of relationship he was looking for, which I never got.

    I also felt like I had to jump through hoops for love and acceptance, and I wasn’t playing that game.

    Believe me, I am down with being in the present moment, not being attached to outcome and having no expectations, but I also believe in finding out early on if you are both on the same page, so that I can fully relax. That is not unrealistic or asking too much at all.



    Daria wrote:
    It sounds like this is where the problems started. You withheld your feelings and your energy turned suspicious.

    So there was a double track now on the outside you say u want better communication

    In the inside you are withholding feelings of fear and suspicion.

    So of course a man will pick up on that energy and likely resist the outside attempts to communicate.

  75.  #75Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    Are we saying that one opinion is right and the other wrong? That one interpretation is right and the other wrong? One understanding is right and the other wrong?

    I don’t see Meemee’s situation as her and “her” man. It seems to me that the man was one using Meemee for something and never really belonged to her so it is not the same as her receiving from her man.

    I also see the expression as a translation from another language to english “snafoo”. I don’t believe that Loneplum is saying women are dirty for accepting money from men. Obviously her english is not perfect and this just fell between the cracks.

    I would like to create a safe space for Loneplum to possibly explain what was meant. I would prefer Loneplum being asked rather than picking out few words that don’t read right from a mostly good comment. Particularly in light of Meemee being grateful to Loneplum for the support she offered during the difficult time.

  76.  #76Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    Still processing trigger…

    hmmm so SEX is fine and clean…

    and just money is dirty?

    Money equals an energy, so if I say – let someone mow my yard I’m clean…

    and just money is dirty?

    But! if I touch money….without the pure pure intent…I’m dirty?

    And if I’m dirty!!!! hmmmm well – so what?

    What’s the point of the use of such triggering words, what reaction was desired? To make one feel clean?

    To make a political statement about men…about women…about abortion….about ……

    well, since no statement was made the only logical conclusion is it’s just a reflection of the speaker’s state of mind.

    I love dirty feet – they feel so honest!

  77.  #77tinque on May 2, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    “I have tried suggesting counselling, but he’s not interested”

    Mel – go by yourself but invite him each and every time to join you.


  78.  #78Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    Hey, guys –

    I am having a problem with a friend right now. This is a female friend who is marrying another one of my friends. It is hard for me, because in a way, it feels like I am losing two friends, not just one, and on top of that, I am still single and feeling hurt and in pain because of this fact – even if I trust with all my heart that my time will come.

    My other friend, the one she is marrying, understands better how I feel, and is compassionate. We also have been friends longer. But the first friend is much younger. Which is why it annoys me so much when she tries to “mother” me and “baby” me – it makes me feel as if I am to be treated as a little child, and immature and weak, simply because I (apparently) don’t have the strength to be in the “great” relationship that she has, nor because I had the guts to speak up about something that I had a strong opinion about.

    It makes me so mad. She broadcasts her life to the world, and she is just so enamored of what is going on with her, that she could care less about other people’s feelings – yet she makes a big show of being magnanimous and inclusive. But really it is all about “her” and her wedding, and her day, and her relationship. Her partner just goes along with this, out of love and tolerance, I suppose.

    Meanwhile, I have to really work on myself. Why is this so triggering for me? Why do I feel like a helpless little girl? Why do I LET her make me feel this way?

    Why can’t I just be happy for my friends, and why does it bother me so much to hear about their wedding?

    Moreover, how can I tell her how I feel without, a) offending her and/or, b) making it seem even more that I am the weak/helpless child that she seems to be making me out to be – all the while, I might add, acting pretty darn immature herself.

    I want to use my feeling messages, but so far, everything I write feels “icky.”

    any help?

    (p.s. I know, I disappeared for a while. So many new articles! I did read some really great responses to my posts, and I really appreciated them. I just got back from a weekend in Texas, visiting a friend, and I have some cool thoughts I want to share about that. Happy May!)

  79.  #79Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Thank you FW but I think Loneplum speaks English perfectly well…and this is my reaction and trigger – which is what I’m here for.

    And the man was USING Meemee…the man might be called a jerk, but consensual sex….ummm…wow – just HOW is that USING the woman?

    Whoa. The man upheld his committment when many wouldn’t have. It ended well. There’s no need for blame nor name calling.

    Feels like the 1930’s….

  80.  #80Jean on May 2, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    I feel lost, any one have any ideas for my “speech” per my comment 15 above? it would feel awesome to get ideas and thoughts from all the lovely ones on here.

  81.  #81Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    60. Mel

    I think some of the most practical words I have read about this came from Turtle Girl:

    “For me total self care/esteem came when I realized that I was ready to walk on ANY man who could not be honest with me. I could walk on ANY man who had some kind of hidden agenda. It’s a deal breaker for me. There is a saying-you are only as sick as your secrets.”

    Letting him know somehow that he could lose you unless he provides a way to break this stalemate may be just the motivation he needs to get honest with himself and with you. It may get into some scary territory, but it’s better than the alternative of feeling lonely in a marriage. I would much rather feel lonely being single than lonely in a marriage.



  82.  #82Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    I have seen people talk about psychological abuse here and it seem to have been accepted that it can happen. Maybe I am wrong but when someone is being psychologically manipulated or abused they are not necessarily in their right minds and might not be making decisions that are the best for their well being.

  83.  #83Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    RE 15 Jean why don’t you write a speech based on how you were feeling about going on the trip, how you felt when that was changed and what you would want going into the future? It might be help others to tweak it based on your actual feelings.

  84.  #84tinque on May 2, 2011 at 12:25 pm

    Lilybelle – “Do you believe that we have to pay over and over and over for past mistakes? Even if we have been forgiven and have also forgiven? ”

    Only if you believe it…


  85.  #85Lilybelle on May 2, 2011 at 12:29 pm


    I don’t and never have.

  86.  #86Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    82. FP

    That is so true about them not being in their right minds and not making the best decisions. Largely in part because their self-esteem is going down the toilet, and with it, their sanity.


  87.  #87Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    In that case, it would have to be called rape, IMO – but no, I personally do not agree that ANY actions I do or do not perform have anything to do with any amount of psychological abuse.

    From everything I read – and I was possibly the first person to chat with Meemee…so have followed her story – it was consensual.

    And if that is so, the guy did good by taking complete financial responsibility for the whole situation.

    Manipulation or not, we all make decisions that are not best for our wellbeing, and we all live with the results of those decisions.

    In fact, that’s all we have in life – the results of our decisions. To change our life, we have to own our decisions. To have true power, we have to own our decisions. To be able to move forward, whether by rehashing and healing the past or just from this very moment…we have to own our decisions and the results of those decisions.

    If I am not responsible for my own life, I cannot change it. With responsibility comes power. With choice comes consequence. And it’s all good because you can simply chose again. A better choice that equals feeling better. That’s an admirable goal!

    Team Free Will!

  88.  #88Jean on May 2, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Feminine power 83: how does this sound?
    ” I feel disappointed. I felt so excited for us to go. Thank you for your apology, I was feeling so uncomfortable. It would feel great to go another time:.
    He has called twice and sent me two emails to apologize. He says “I feel so bad that I disappointed you, it was my fault, I should have checked. Can we go next week instead? ”
    the thing is, he has step grandkids and grandkids and I would feel bad to come between them, it is not me, not something I would ever do. So I feel I have to be understanding. I couldn’t/wouldn’t ask him to choose between us, that is not what I would ever do. But on the other hand, listening to Rori’s cd’s, and the blogs, the emails and all…its not about him, its about how I FEEL. so I guess I do feel disappointed, but then I feel relieved or something – greatful maybe? that he let me know as soon as he found out and was very sorry for it. not that I want him to be sorry, I don’t want him to feel bad, but the apology and the acknowledgment of my feelings makes me feel good. so….how do I address the sorry’s from him, the apology?
    should I say” I was feeling so uncomfortable, thank you for the apology?” or ” I felt so disappointed, it felt icky, I didn’t like feeling that way. thank you for the apology, I feel much better. IT would feel awesome to go another time”
    what do you think?

  89.  #89tinque on May 2, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    Jean – He apologized. It seemed sincere to me. You told him you were disappointed, but if you really feel okay with his apology and rescheduling, then say so.

    People make mistakes. As long as this isn’t a pattern, holding onto disappoitment won’t serve you.

    “Though I was so looking forward to our trip, it will feel great to go with you on (whatever date he suggests). Thank you for being so sweet, considerate, (whichever emotion fits.)

  90.  #90Jean on May 2, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    feminine power 82-when I was still married, there was not physical abuse, but the emotional abuse was awful. It took years for me to rebuild my self esteem and happiness – all for my self. Its hard to believe that someone you love so much, that you trust your life with – can use that to manipulate and hurt you. when you hear it day in and day out, you come to believe it. until you can see that its not you that is at fault and you can take the slow, baby steps to start to heal your heart and get your strength back inside you.

  91.  #91tinque on May 2, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    Lilybelle – In that case, I believe you don’t have to ever pay for mistakes if you they were made in ignorance (what I mean by that is no consciously). You apologize. You let it go. If the other person can’t or won’t forgive, that’s their issue, NOT YOURS.


  92.  #92Mercedes on May 2, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    LonePlum: I don’t know about everyone else, but I thought your comment was beautiful. I don’t believe it applies to everyone and certainly not all situations, but for certain situations and certain people it feels perfectly right and I thought it was beautiful. I myself have struggled with accepting a man’s money (and other gifts) and with needing to prove myself. I’m getting better (a little) but still pay my own bills and help with the household bills and groceries, etc. It feels good to me. Better than if I lived off of all of his money. But that’s me…I also understand that not everyone is like me either. But I do see…if a woman is the kind of woman who struggles with it…how your comment could pull on the heart strings. For me, it showed the pain of letting go of some limiting beliefs and moving forward without feeling bad about it. I liked it.

    Jean: I’m not the best at speeches but something like “Baby, it’s okay. Yes, I was disappointed because I wanted to go, but I’m sure we can get past this.” *smile* “let’s plan something soon okay?” (insert feeling messages where necessary).

    Much Love,

  93.  #93Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    Ps…and to validate my credentials, I lived for 10 years with a RICH master manipulative narcississt. And, I own my choice(s). Self esteem in the toilet, maybe. Moved 50 miles away from him to make the best actions result? Check. Only way out of misery to walk away and leave with no closure? Okay. Lesson learned. Still hurts dreadfully, and I am still glad I did it. Living with far less drama, a far nicer man and a much happier life? Yep!!

    Chose AGAIN if you don’t like your results. It’s an open option for anyone breathing.

    Happy smiles and later all yall Sirens and Men!

  94.  #94Mercedes on May 2, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    Jean: Or maybe “I can promise you that I am WAY more excited about the next trip than I am disappointed about missing the last one.” 🙂

  95.  #95Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    And I don’t ever ever ever feel DIRTY for anything – and I resent people who would try and make me feel that way. Not that anyone did, unless I just happen to fit in the very very broad definition given.

    I wonder – if you take food from a church and the pastor’s a man? are you dirty?

    If you live at home with your parents and they pay the light bill – are you dirty?

    If you let a stranger give you $20 when you’re broke and don’t have food – are you dirty?

    I don’t like money being assigned morality, and I don’t like actions being labled “dirty.”

    Your milage may vary…I’m aware.

  96.  #96Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    RE 92 Mercedes me too. I also remember some comments from Meemee that suggested to me that she also had the struggle of accepting his money and see Loneplum’s comment as contextual.

  97.  #97Laughing Goddess on May 2, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    I’m feeling out of balance today, triggered, and sensitive.

    Feel myself falling off my horse a bit…feeling distracted from my purpose, my passion, my inner truth.

    Remembering the Einstein quote “you can’t solve a problem with the same state of mind that created it” (paraphrase)

    I feel shaky from the triggering last night with my friend. I do feel happy though that we easily worked through it.

    I feel so appreciative of the friends I have in my life.

    Feeling shaky from watching Black Swan last night. It’s not really the vibration I’m wanting in my life. Feeling ready to shake that off.

    Feeling uncomfortable with some comments here. Wanting to allow others their experience without taking it on myself.

    Wanting to stay on my horse. My horse is guiding me towards peace every moment.

    I feel so thankful for faster eft. I’m loving that stuff. I’m finding it helps me to shake off anything that doesn’t feel good.

    I love my life. I love what I have attracted to me. I love where I am headed into the future.

    I love that I have these tools to help me have the relationship I want.

    I love my feelings of unsettledness because they let me know when I am headed off track. I love that I can easily realign myself.

    I love free will. I love being a creator.

  98.  #98Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    ” make me feel that way” hhhhhhhmmmmmmmm

  99.  #99Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    56 Lilybelle. Apparently some ppl never let go. I found out two summers ago – when my 40 yo brother engaged in a surprise verbal attack against me – that he was still angry at me “for persuading him to buy a mo-ped instead of a car” when he was 16 (I was 22). I barely recall him having a mo-ped. (But apparently it didn’t work out too well for him.) (((Lilybelle))) <3 Lucy

  100.  #100Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    Jean – how about just how you said it -” I’m so glad to hear you apologize because I felt bad and don’t want to come between you and your children or grandchildren. So I’m happy you’ve asked and shown you care about my feelings as well. That feels good!”

  101.  #101Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    FW…note the TRY, please….hmmmmm

  102.  #102Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    LG can you elaborate on ” I’m finding it helps me to shake off anything that doesn’t feel good.”

    Though this space is for practicing, sometimes I get the sense that it seems feelings must always be expressed and my thinking is I should be able to work through my feelings. It does not always have to spoken. Thanks.

  103.  #103Mercedes on May 2, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    FP 96: yup…that’s how I see it. Within the context and knowing the story and hearing the pain and the struggle and the growth and the strength, I saw the beauty in an abstract description of all those emotions throughout the journey…and the description of the continued growth and strength yet to come.

    The breaking free from an addiction to a man…the standing up to him and losing the old fears (even the ones that stemmed from culture and tradition)…the refusal to be a doormat…the power in staying strong, without drama and standing by her convictions.

    I really loved it.

    Much Love,

  104.  #104Jean on May 2, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Thank you mercedes and tinque! The feeling messages are so awesome, I feel so happy for the suggestions! the feeling messages really work with this man and I want to make sure I keep in the leaning back/feeling mode and letting him row the boat. But I also want to make sure that I keep the focus on me and HOW I feel per rori’s ideas. thank you !~

  105.  #105Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    LG, my son and his gf walked out of the theater without watching the whole movie (Black Swan. I haven’t seen it myself.) They’ve never done that with any other movie and are usually very open to almost anything – especially artistic type stuff. He said it was just a really disturbing vibe.

  106.  #106Laughing Goddess on May 2, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    What can I do for myself today to feel good?

    Use my gift certificate to buy those shoes I’ve been wanting.
    Write out my business plan for my angel investor.
    Drink lots of water.
    Come up with a tasty hydrating drink.
    Write out my new moon intentions.
    Find something funny to laugh about.
    Listen to some Abraham hicks.
    Do laundry.
    Order that shampoo I’ve been wanting.

    Thank you LG for making that yummy tea this morning.
    Thank you for eating a healthy breakfast.
    Thank you for going on a walk with LI and the dogs.
    Thank you for doing eft when I was feeling bad.
    Thank you for paying attention to when I was out of the vortex and stopping to get back in.
    Thank you for believing in me and my dreams.
    Thank you for breaking subconscious patterns so I can have the relationship I want.

  107.  #107Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    RE 103 Well said Mercedes, well said. I particularly loved “without the drama”. Yayy to Meemee, I celebrate the success.

  108.  #108Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    I have heard the same about Black Swan. I probably won’t see it.


  109.  #109Lilybelle on May 2, 2011 at 12:55 pm


    (((Lucy))) Thanks for the hug, girl.

    I am working through MY judgement of MYSELF for the decision I made all those years ago. I didn’t realize I was still judging myself but I guess I am.

    I am close now, have forgiven myself and am now just working to let it go. I sure have cried a lot of tears in the past 24 hours. lol

    It was an interesting conversation that prompted my question about this up there. I feel strong in my conviction that people do NOT keep being punished over and over for making bad choices, but a girlfriend said to me, that those things will continue to keep coming back, related to karma and no matter what you do, you can’t stop it.


  110.  #110Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    How do people know it was without drama? There were tears, sleepless nights, cigarrettes and gym obsessively….an extremely satisfying encounter and monies paid. But I doubt that this made anyone feel better and can be a huge success?

    It may have made Meemee stronger – but to celebrate it as a success feels sad. Maybe as a do-over, one could cautiously say it’s a good thing?

    My joy is also with Meemee…

    and I will always be triggered by those who equate money, giving or taking with being labeled….any label at all.

  111.  #111Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Lilybelle you choose what you believe and that overrides what anybody says.

  112.  #112Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    i feel good


    i knew that i would


    so good

    so good

    i feel Wooooooo


    i just ate breakfast i cooked for myself

    thank you Daria

    and am feeling really greaaat 🙂

  113.  #113Ella on May 2, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    I am feeling really fizzed up and strung out today.

    Really need to soothe and relax and take care of myself.

    My energy feels like it is flying around everywhere right now.

    I think I will feel better again tomorrow after a good sleep, however right now it has been a crazy weekend what with my house mates breaking up and me being right in the middle.

    And I am also quite attracted to the guy which is just a very weird dynamic. I know him through my friend, and I moved in with both of them, and then she finished it with him and left and now it is just me and him in the house.

    I also know that she was seeing someone else and this makes me feel very akward as I like and respect him. I won’t tell him cus it is none of my business but as I said it feels kinda weird right now.

  114.  #114Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    78: Tmizz says:

    For me, a lot of times, these kind of people show up in my life with these hooks, these kinds of behaviors, in order to challenge my own self-limiting beliefs, for instance, maybe somehow I still don’t believe that I have the strength to have the great relationship or to express a strong opinion.

    If it were me, I would probably look at it like that, and see where I am buying into this.

    For some reason, I’m not feeling that using feeling messages with her is the way to go, I’m feeling that it’s more about you being triggered.

    I’m not saying there’s nothing wrong with her behavior, just that it may not bother you at all if you were truly secure in your belief that you do have everything it takes for a great relationship, and whatever she says and does would simply be viewed as coming from her own perceptions, insecurities, need to feel superior, etc.


    how’s the mt biz going? I’m on the brink of a brand new opportunity and am so excited! Wish me luck!


    TMizz wrote:
    I am having a problem with a friend right now. This is a female friend who is marrying another one of my friends. It is hard for me, because in a way, it feels like I am losing two friends, not just one, and on top of that, I am still single and feeling hurt and in pain because of this fact – even if I trust with all my heart that my time will come.

    My other friend, the one she is marrying, understands better how I feel, and is compassionate. We also have been friends longer. But the first friend is much younger. Which is why it annoys me so much when she tries to “mother” me and “baby” me – it makes me feel as if I am to be treated as a little child, and immature and weak, simply because I (apparently) don’t have the strength to be in the “great” relationship that she has, nor because I had the guts to speak up about something that I had a strong opinion about.

  115.  #115Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm


    This new info is pretty disturbing. The fact that he used to allow you his passwords, but has now changed them is pretty disturbing.

    That is a pretty serious change in behavior IMHO. That combined with closing windows as you are about to walk by is pretty weird.

    But at the same time, I am not ready to say he is cheating. Not physically anyway. he may be chatting with another woman. He may even be having virtual sex with someone. But I am not sure he is physically cheating.

    He could be but isn’t able to hook up as often as he wants, and so masturbates in the shower thinking about her.

    The problem for you as you said, is that you don’t have closure. That this whole mess has you confused.

    Many disagreed with me the last time as did you and I understand why, but I don’t let it bother me.

    I remember with the Columbine shootings, people were all over the parents for not knowing what was going on with their kids.

    And yet at the same time, opinions are mixed on just how far you should go to investigate what your kids are up to EVEN if you suspect something is up with them.

    Same goes for spouses and BF/GF. Should you put a nanny cam in your house? Most would say not to if it is to monitor the husband. But then, what if your daughter suddenly starts acting weird? What if he is abusing her?

    What if he is cheating on you but with “pros.” What if that ends up bringing a disease into your lives?

    The point I am getting at here is that the issue is never black and white.

    I can agree that leaning back is good. Worry about yourself, and even do so in a manner that preps you for moving on. Get into school if you do not have a degree. Get a degree to do something you will enjoy doing, or something that will make you feel good about yourself. It doesn’t have to be anything except what YOU feel will make you happy.

    That way you are better prepared if it does come to divorce. I don’t think you are there yet, but it would be good to make yourself prepared.

    Frankly, in your case, if you are not willing to go as far as needed to make sure he isn’t sleeping with somebody else, I think I would lean so far back that it includes not having sex with him…at all. Not until he gives you a warm and fuzzy that he is really into you…and you alone.

  116.  #116Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    lilybelle – use the stop sign tool!

    look UP sharp to the RIGHT

    see a big red stop sign for 5 seconds!

    then come back to regular and FLIP the thoughts

    i DESERVE love and am loved even by others who are triggered!

    now how do you feel?

  117.  #117Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    114 oops, i didn’t mean “TMizz says” at the top. i wrote the first part….


  118.  #118Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    Tmizz sometimes I have strong opinions but choose not to speak because I subscribe to the concept of choosing your battles. I used to always speak up and fight in the past but learnt that at times that serves no purpose but to hurt myself. I am at peace with my choice of not speaking at times because I recognize it won’t change anything.

  119.  #119Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    I feel uncomfortable with all the explaining, defending, and arguing coming up with people’s triggers from Loneplum’s post. I would feel happy and excited to see these triggers Healed through pure riffing and looking at self rather than at “the messenger.” I personally receive money and gifts from men All the time yet I don’t feel one bit triggered by Loneplum’s words. Love to all ~ <3

  120.  #120Lilybelle on May 2, 2011 at 1:17 pm



    I hear you, sister.

    I have and am making my peace with everything from back then and am on the right track here. I have one skinned up knee from falling down yesterday, but I put a band-aid on it and am ready to rock and roll.



  121.  #121Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    i feel great and honored and HONORING to have a man pay for my WANTS

  122.  #122Ella on May 2, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    I need all my energy for me!

    Need to be a fountain for myself and need to love myself again.

    Energy onto ME only. Keep the focus on me… date at least 3, yep, sounds good!


  123.  #123Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    Luv you Lil

  124.  #124Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    119. Very nicely said, Lucy!!


  125.  #125Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    #121 Daria,

    How do you feel when you pay for your own WANTS?

  126.  #126bubka11 on May 2, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    I have a question for you: What is the total cost of the book and the CD? Please give me a responds as soon as you can. Thank you

  127.  #127Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    RE 126 bubka11 It might be best if you write to melanie@coachrori.com. Also when you go in as if you are shopping for the material the costs comes up.

  128.  #128Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 1:25 pm


    In a previous thread you asked about sex drive. My dad once said that this was proof there was a god and that he has a perverse sense of humor.

    Men have a sex drive that is out of control when women aren’t so interested in having sex with you, and in addition, this is also a time period when you women tend to look your best. Of course I am speaking about teens to early 30s.

    Then the late thirties hit and a man’s sex drive does start to diminish while a woman’s sex drive starts to heat up. And this is when both of us start to lose our looks a bit.

    Further, men and women seem to be “UP” for sex at different times of the day. Many men are more interested in morning sex or early day sex. Why? We aren’t tired. Women tend to want sex at the end of the day…when men are tired. LOL

    It has to be proof of a god. LOL. No way mother nature would do this. I mean think about it. The best years for a woman to have a child are in her earlier years, and it is best for her to have a man that is stable and can take care of her and the child. And yet men are at their sexual peaks when they are not stable and women are at their peaks when their best child bearing years have passed. It’s too ironic to be coincidence. LOL

    NOW, before all of the flames start, yes I know some women have children into their later years, and some young men are stable. Remember, we are speaking generally here. 😉

  129.  #129Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Jean – tweaking on your words

    “I do feel disappointed, but then I feel relieved and greatful that you let me know as soon as you found out and apologized. I don’t want you to feel bad… the apology and the acknowledgment of my feelings makes me feel really good. “

  130.  #130Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Lily T. – i don’t


  131.  #131Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    i feel greatful to myself …

    like the way i do when i cook myself breakfast

  132.  #132Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    that is grateful to Boy-Daria

    and i would also feel grateful to another Man who is providing for my wants

    when with a man i let him know my wants ie “i feel hungry” so that he has a chance to provide and feel my greatfulness

  133.  #133Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:28 pm


    hey, I look better now than I did twenty years ago!!
    take that!

    just funnin’ with ya, brother 😉


  134.  #134Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    where’s my
    throwing tomatoes at Rusty comment ?

  135.  #135Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    102 FP. Yes! I was just saying that to a friend yesterday. That’s one of the ways in which Rori advises us to “choose our words” – i.e., sometimes it is better to process our feelings ourselves Without involving the other person. If we express every little uncomfortable emotion to a man or woman in a relationship it will become draining on the relationship. I think this is where some women may be going wrong with men. I am certainly not saying stuff your feelings – h*ll no – but rather choose your battles..

  136.  #136Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    I also don’t use “earn” and other masculine concepts for my feminine energy.

    I don’t have to earn love, i just deserve it by being.

    and i don’t have to earn receiving my wants.

    men DO have to Earn the opportunity to give to me 🙂

  137.  #137Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    (an inadequate metaphor, for None of it should be a “battle” but it was the best I could muster in the moment.)

  138.  #138Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    RE 137 Understood. Just goes to show we are not all perfect and we all kind of struggle to express ourselves, especially with the english language.

  139.  #139Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    136 Daria

    Just reading that makes me feel super feminine

    I’m glad I feel that way, and that is why I walked.

    I wasn’t going to get into that feedback loop
    of reward and punishment, because it is against my very nature.


  140.  #140Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    I feel great when I pay for my own “wants”. I bought alot of inexpensive jewelry (bling) off ebay last year-every time a little piece arrived in the mail I was happy for days. 🙂 It felt ALOT better than hoping a man would buy me a piece of jewelry for my birthday/Christmas/V-day and being disappointed he didn’t. Buying my own bling felt like I was taking care of myself. Yay me.

  141.  #141Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Lilybelle – stuff comes up repeatedly for healing, a little more manageable each time.. this is a GOOD thing a healthy thing, it’s the way healing happens…until the karma is healed

  142.  #142Ella on May 2, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Girls and guys I know we have discussed this one before but what do we do when we seem to be attracting in a lot of men who have g,friends?

    I got that we are supposed to treat them the same way as any other men who we deal with,

    However what about when you know and like the g,friends?

    For me I just stay away from these ones…

    I have allowed men to kiss me in the past who I know have g,friends, and I don’t know the g,friend.

    And I still have some issues and judging myself around this.

    Labelling this behaviour with negative voices.

    I wonder why I am attracting men with g,friends… weird…

    But then most guys around here do have g,friends… and also seem to have no qualms about cheating on them.

    I am aware that men can just have ‘for now’ g,friends, and that is why we shouldn’t rule them out…

    And it still feels kinda weird.

    What do other Sirens think of this issue.

  143.  #143Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    Lily T – yes taking care of me feels better than expecting and feeling dissapointed

    however, receiving without expecting feels really good too – allowing someone else to take care of me

    being the “fern” that is watered

    and when i feel unwatered, i can express it, then i can walk away and take care of myself

  144.  #144Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    Ella – i think it’s fine to CD, however i personally don’t feel good to get too close with a man with a gf… because it doesn’t feel good to have my thoughts thinking of “her” instead of me.. and that’s what i noticed happening

    i want to be the only woman

    and i wouldn’t feel comfortable to date a man a RESPECTED friend of mine likes …

  145.  #145Lemonice on May 2, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Been awhile since I been here, had to change my name, can’t share who I am but I have been here in the past. It would feel nice if sirens could give one another the benefit of the doubt sometimes particularly for other sirens who are new at attempting Rori’s tools rather than being told passive/aggressively that they are doing thier feeling messages wrong. It would feel great if we could gently steer one another in the right direction.

    I feel happy and open to Jacqueline that she is attempting to process her triggers on here. I know this is a big step for her and I feele encouraging of her in this journey.

    Jacqueline, I feel curious as to why Loneplum’s words trigger you so much? Is it a bad memory? Did someone judge you that way in your life in your past sometime? It would feel good to hear what your story is around this and your feelings. HUGS to you and thank you for sticking it out and attempting this.

  146.  #146Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    RE 140 Yayy LilyT. I feel the same way too. I also have to say I know of many men who take on the rescurer role as result and end up feeling resentment though they never express it to the spouse. My very own brother is in a situation where he only speaks to us when it spills over and he cannot take it anymore. To add to the experience it seems he can never do it right as there is always criticism. How do I know, he sometimes calls while it is going on and she also calls to talk about it. I have introduced her to Rori’s work but she is so mired in having what she wants that she will not even entertain it.

    My other brother’s marriage is going strong and he has a woman who is independent and will speak openly of taking care of her own wants. Seems he admires her for it. I guess as they say different strokes for different folks.

  147.  #147Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    tinque says:

    I very much appreciate Rusty’s presence as well as Lurker and Jim, yet they are coming from a man’s perspective, and they sometimes give man advice which is not always a good tack to take when you’re a woman.


    Fair enough, but then, what Lurker and I do here is simply offer a man’s point of view…something that you can’t do. And the advice we give is from a man’s perspective…something you can’t give. We can also say that, as a man, we would prefer that you handle it this way, if you were our girl, which is again, something you can’t do.

    So our place her is different than yours, but I would say, no less valuable.

    In other words, I have to don the boy hat here sometimes.

    But you can no more be the boy than I could be the girl. I can’t offer any perspective from a girl’s point of view since I am not a girl, and this would hold true no matter how many psychology degrees I had, or how many female relatives and friends I had counseled and learned from.

    What Lurker, myself and now Jim do is give a man’s perspective. I think this is most valuable when a woman is trying to figure out a course of action but is basing it off of how a woman sees things but what she needs to know is how a man sees things. for instance, she thinks because of certain actions, her man sees her as a sex object….but only we men can tell her whether the actions really mean that or is it something else.

    For instance, Turquise3 stated that if her man was fondling her all the time it would make her feel like a sex object. She could get all kinds of women who would tell her that a man doing that doesn’t respect her, doesn’t value her as a woman, sees her as a sex object, etc…

    But only a man could tell her that that advice is a bunch of malarkey. I already stated that I am one of those men who are like that. I mean yeah I have a brain and realize that there is a time and place for things, but because I grab my wife’s boobs when I cuddle her from behind, almost every time in no way means I don’t respect her, or that I don’t value her other fine qualities, or that I think of her as a sex object.

    No, the fact is, that is just how I express myself and that is all. I would be able to put it to her like this. Some men don’t think that there should be any touching, kissing, and certainly no sex outside of the bedroom. If you are more than OK with all of that out of the bedroom, does that mean you are a sex freak? No. It just means you have a different boundaries. And like I said, I am just of the opinion that it flows smoother if you have the same or very similar boundaries, which is why with some women, this area of my life flowed so smoothly it was never an issue, and with others it was a huge issue.

    Anyway, in the end, all any of us can do is offer advice but it is up to the other person to take and use it as they see fit.

    Sorry for the rant but your post felt very condescending.

  148.  #148Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    Rusty what is “malarkey?”

  149.  #149Daria on May 2, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    oh my! i feel amused and delighted to see all the triggerific excitement

    and a lil bit afraid…

  150.  #150Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    145. Lemonice

    Hello again!

    As per Rori, we are trying to keep “flaming” here to a minimum, not chiding anyone for doing feeling messages wrong.


  151.  #151turquoise3 on May 2, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    I didn’t get a chance to read the article yet, or catch up on the comments… but I’m so excited, I got a raise today!!! 🙂 $1.50 more an hour.

    YEAH ME! Thank you universe!!! 🙂

  152.  #152Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    It takes two baby, it takes two baby, it takes two baby
    me and you

  153.  #153Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    RE 151 I feel your vibe. Congrats.

  154.  #154Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    148: Femininepower says:

    Rusty what is “malarkey?”

    I don’t think the term is used as much these days since people are much more comfortable just saying “BS” or even cursing to make their point. 😉

    I think that term was much more popular with my dad’s generation which is why I heard him and his friends use it a lot.

  155.  #155Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    Mel, my heart goes out to you. I know from experience how hard this is and also how confusing it can be choosing what advice to follow esp when some is direct opposite of others. I tried everything ppl are telling you here – except RR communication. If I were doing it over I would get in touch w my deepest feelings and express them: “I feel so scared that it will always be like this. I feel lonely and heartbroken. I don’t know what to do.” Also…

  156.  #156Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    134: Elizabeth says:

    where’s my
    throwing tomatoes at Rusty comment ?


    Throw all of them you want. Just throw them soft enough for me to catch them. Seen the price of tomatoes lately? I’ll put the ones you throw on my salad and sandwiches. 😉

  157.  #157Lily T. on May 2, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    #147 Rusty,

    Is it safe to assume your wife doesn’t mind you grabbing her boobs from behind when you feel affectionate? If she told you she DID MIND, would you still do it?

    I don’t see this example as a particularly good one for male POV, because some guys will do the boob-grab even knowing their woman doesn’t like it. At that point, it becomes more of an aggressive/ownership gesture rather than one of affection.

  158.  #158Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Now now now Rusty. I feel like putting on my mothering hat to address a naughty boy…….but I won’t.

    It is really interesting how people experience things differently. What I take away from this is a lesson not to assume anything but to ask people I am relating to how they understand/feel/experience things.

  159.  #159Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    Lucy 155 feels really genuine and authentic. I feel like crying reading that and that was also how I felt reading Mel’s comment.

  160.  #160Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 1:57 pm

  161.  #161Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    Mel- And looking back now – 10 yrs after first separating, now knowing more about what was going on with him, being on good terms with him now etc – I think what may have helped both of us would’ve been for me (drastic as this sounds in a marriage) to say that I feel lonely and in need of male attention and affection. I don’t want our marriage to end but I love myself and want to take care of myself, my needs and desires. I respect your right to do what you want. And I want to let you know that i will be

  162.  #162Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    accepting dates from other men to meet my needs for male attention and affection. I love you and I hope that someday we can be the intimate, loving couple we were before.

  163.  #163Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Lemonice – thank you! I am attempting..as in I am triggered! smile…and there’s no story for me; my ex cleared about 1/2 million a year and was worth several and I walked away. It’s just a judgement and made up about money. The trigger for me was that some people might read that as good! thing…cuz it’s soooooooo dirty. Most of the time I am triggered because I feel I don’t want others to believe what some people (who never have even the slightest human issue/and or story) say repeatedly. Feels like living in that Leave it to Beaver show.

    And for me, life’s not like that. Yeah, sure we CHOSE our beliefs…but what about when life shows up otherwise? As in Lucy’s brother’s reaction years after she’d convinced herself of her belief (interesting story Lucy and brought up a great line of thought for me, thank you)…

    So – life has lessons. We’re all learning. Kaitlyn for ex. might be quite in agreement with LP or totally suicidal about it, I don’t know.

    But I always want to see a diversity of opinion here and if I’ve got to be the one to provide it, oh well.

    And the chose your battles? feels so inauthentic to me. As does the somehow turning the actual event in life into a very self esteeming thing. I mean, aren’t people like bruised from that? thus the PASS website….

    I don’t chose my triggers and I don’t want my voice to be passive.

    I love my voice.

    And all of this is here for anyone to read and comment on and there’s nothing I can do about that.

    Ergo, it’s public.

    I think far too often connotation and denotation are treated as if they don’t exist or are too complex to be commented on here.

    And I don’t have any personal bad feelings about Loneplum, either.

    I just hate the belief about money.

    But I do wonder – is there a point, which is different for all of us – at which we will gladly self destruct or walk away? If we KNEW without a doubt that this thing…would KILL us…but slowly…would we ignore that and just keep doing it? Because that’s what happens when you’ve been beaten down?

    I don’t think so, I’ve seen too many people fight for life.

    But I hear it being said…

    I don’t know, this has all been good food for thought for me,

    and I riff in complete sentences and paragraphs.


  164.  #164Ella on May 2, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Thanks Daria!


  165.  #165Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    Mel- I feel kinda scared about what i just wrote bc it Is so drastic. I would say also try to really get in touch with your intuition about what to do. (((Mel)))

  166.  #166Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    157: Lily T.No Gravatar says:

    #147 Rusty,

    Is it safe to assume your wife doesn’t mind you grabbing her boobs from behind when you feel affectionate? If she told you she DID MIND, would you still do it?

    I don’t see this example as a particularly good one for male POV, because some guys will do the boob-grab even knowing their woman doesn’t like it. At that point, it becomes more of an aggressive/ownership gesture rather than one of affection.


    NO, If the person says to stop, then you must. You do have to respect each others’ boundaries. But’ I will say it again, that it is much better when your boundaries mesh well.

    I would not want to be with a woman that wanted, or even felt like she needed to dictate this. At the same time, I can’t see my ideal woman wanting to be with a man that is overly hesitant to touch her.

    I can say this though, from talking with other men, and from my own experiences that, if and when a woman starts criticizing how, when, and how often we touch, it kills the desire to even do it. After a while, you just don’t even feel the desire to touch. Many things are like this and of course this is the reason you go through a lot of relationships in your search for someone that meshes well with you.

    See, to me, sex, and touching/kissing…stuff like that, is supposed to be fun, spontaneous, frisky, etc… It killed my desire if a woman tried to label what I was doing, or control it too much.

    At the same time, I have enough common sense to know how to act when the time is not appropriate, such as when we are at dinner with her parents, etc…

  167.  #167Ella on May 2, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    I feel proud of myself for making and sticking to my boundary and walking away.

  168.  #168Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    Also, Mel, I would ask myself what I am trying to punish myself for by manifesting this painful situation. And then forgive myself and work through letting go of shame and self-judgment. This in itself could heal your relationship (his assigned role in the universe right now is to punish you – he is just doing his assignment – you can change the assignment by healing) or bring you a healthy relationship w someone new.

  169.  #169Daria on May 2, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Ella – i feel really strong imagining being you and crying going home.. awesome!

  170.  #170Daria on May 2, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    my morning eFT routine:

    start with this… resitance to change… so all the rest of the tools work smoother


  171.  #171Daria on May 2, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    go to minute 2:00 to start the EFT

  172.  #172Ella on May 2, 2011 at 2:18 pm


    Re 169


    I didn’t feel strong at the time though but it is a good first babystep!


  173.  #173Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    128 Rusty. Good argument for polyamory as more natural and desirable. When I talked to TN man about Mel’s issue (bc it was mine in my marriage and I want to avoid it in future) he said that even though he is 14 yrs older than his gf they don’t have those issues “bc she is free to be with other men. :)”

  174.  #174Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    polyamory and/or “open marriage/relationship”

  175.  #175Queenbee on May 2, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    So much going on on Siren Island today –

    I had a fantastic night 🙂 Came home at 5:30am…

    I did perform. I felt good once I was there –

    I wouldn’t say it was my best performance… anyway, nothing that I really need to analyze

    People were happy and I did feel acknowledged and appreciated

    The host was amazing…

    I met six men – 4 of whom contacted me today

    One of the men recorded my performance, edited the video and emailed it to me

    I haven’t seen it coz of some technical problem so he said he will resend it tomorrow

    That feels really good. I’m curious to hear/ watch myself … I’ve been so bashful and wanting things to be perfect.

    I feel good about not holding on to my “perfection” issues yesterday and performing from the space I was in and feeling okay with it.

    There’s stuff to work on but I feel okay with my vibe and where I am now working on it – performance wise that is.

    Okay, so the more important things – practicing… and how did I do –

    I was practicing leaning back, FMs, not talking too much (Listening from level 2 and 3… )

    I leaned back mostly, which was good. It would still feel better to keep steady on the leaning back… I noticed some past leaning forward habits sneak up on me and I don’t want that.

    FMs – I used them. It felt good. A little tricky some times where it wasn’t exactly rolling off my tongue… and then I felt a bit shaky.

    I also noticed that I felt like ‘shouting’ my FMs when the men were not ‘reacting’ to them as per my ‘expectations’. Although nothing really happened for me to have this conclusion…

    I noticed that when men don’t wear stuff on their sleeve on the first meeting (in context). Obviously, I know this… but it was very interesting to notice the same poised vibe/ facial expression from the men. I just need to learn how to be with this and lean back or do the ‘Air’. That feels like a good babystep for me.

    Now the listening from level 2 and 3 – OMG! Awful… I feel bad saying something bad about myself because I didn’t get this right… but it was downright awful… as per the tools of course. The men may not even have noticed unless directly in my line of ‘not listening at all’…

    I’ve noticed this, which I need to heal. One, when I’m having a good time and drinking, I can get a bit too hyper for my liking.

    Yes, I’m enjoying myself and stuff… but I worry in the morning and ‘check for any embarrassment’ – ok, luckily this morning I felt okay… but still I was not as Siren-like as I could/ want to be.

    In some ways, I feel like a ‘dog let out of a kennel’.

    It’s many things… I’ve been looking at my past ‘training’ growing up of attending parties… and the ones I went to as a teenager… or nightclubs etc… but mostly parties… and my behaviour is definitely not as yummy as it could be.

    I feel so ‘untrained’. I can see that I am…. it’s very weird. I can do nightclubs easily… very cool, calm, everything works out perfectly. But intimate parties… oh boy, I could be better.

    I don’t want to interrupt anyone while they are speaking. Even in error a few times… that just feels bad.

    One man was talking to me about how I can expand myself in my art form and I did not want to hear it at all, and would not let him even speak – Eeeek! That feels bad.

    I could have just used an FM about how talking about my work during downtime makes me feel unrelaxed and I would feel better talking about it at a later date. Then thank him for his interest in my work and say that it feels good….

    Dammit! In fact that is exactly the FM I needed to practice… not all those superficial ones that I felt got caught in my tongue.

    Interesting enough, the man who I didn’t say this to is one of them who did not contact me today. I feel bad.

    I’ve been thinking of contacting him… and I may. Just to say that, and I feel good about doing it. Perhaps in a couple days….

    Mum criticized me for coming home at 5:30am. Ugh! That felt awful. I told her I did not want to be criticized. And the host asked me to stay on coz he wanted us to jam. So I did. When I felt ready, I left with no fuss and that felt good.

    I do feel triggered by mum though. I hate explaining. Her thing was ‘people don’t want you staying in the houses so late’ or whatever… something along those lines… and now I’m like oh effing sh1t, what’s this about creating inferiority in me – … but anyway, that was their training… I still feel angry!!

    I don’t want to feel inferior, feel concerned, restricted, limited and second guessing myself.

    She then brought up me staying over at HotAmazing man’s house… and I felt so angry! Like what the h3ll is this… feeling this way, living in this house like there is something to be ashamed of!!!! AAARGGGHHH! This makes me so angry even now….

    I remember attending ‘club functions’ while growing up. And now I see it was horrible. All I did was sit there with my siblings… watching my parents having a good time and feeling bored….

    Then the pressure of men asking me to dance. Sometimes I felt like they did it as a favour to me… when the night was almost over…

    So I was stuck up. But I was damn bored and didn’t want to be there anyway.

    No drinking coz we are not allowed to drink in front of parents – yuck!! So much pretense…

    Always being watched – like if I talked to a man who seemed interested in me… then the constant watching… I hated it!

    I remember feeling embarrassed so many times in that club. Sometimes, it was just downright awful what I experienced when my parents (dad especially) stepped in on an interaction he disagreed with.

    I feel so angry! It makes me feel small. Like I have no control over my hormones or anything else and I just need to be watched, judged, criticized and kept in line. This feels awful…

    I agree, discipline is important – but there is a way when it is not discipline at all and just some yuck approach/ intention/ judgement!!!

    And there was nothing even happening between me and any man –

    i feel so judged. I feel angry and I feel sad…

    Need to stop now…

    I’m going to bed.

    Will post more later … and what I felt about HotAmazing man. It was very interesting.

    Hugs to all!


  176.  #176Queenbee on May 2, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    Ella – so proud of you! And YAY!!! 🙂

    This feels fantastic reading!

    On ‘Going out’ –

    I’m still thinking of the sloppiness… I’ve noticed my own ‘the dog out of kennel’ experiences….

    And my emotional baggage.. and feeling disconnected from myself and everything…

    I’m rude and unavailable. I feel closed off and operating from a place of complete inauthenticity… and then I’m overly excited to be out, having a good time, letting my guard/ hair down. I feel myself relax and then I express myself wildly/ boldly/ sharply… there’s no siren vibe feeling in this…


  177.  #177tinque on May 2, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    “So our place her is different than yours, but I would say, no less valuable.”

    Rusty – I totally agree with this. I feel badly you felt condescended to. It was not my intention, and since I apparently expressed myself poorly, I apologize.

    My point was that I’ve noticed that sometimes the responses you say you prefer and ways to approach you, the words you choose for us to say, seem to me more the way men interact with each other well and not always the best way for women to interact with you.

    Something to consider is that the suggested ways of approach and speech ala Rori for example may be more a appropriate way, a way that you may not be aware works better with you.


  178.  #178Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    145 Lemonice. I don’t see anyone being passive-aggressive here. It feels bad reading that. I would ask myself “what triggers me to perceive/judge something as passive-aggressive?”

  179.  #179Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 2:47 pm

    173: Lucy says:

    128 Rusty. Good argument for polyamory as more natural and desirable. When I talked to TN man about Mel’s issue (bc it was mine in my marriage and I want to avoid it in future) he said that even though he is 14 yrs older than his gf they don’t have those issues “bc she is free to be with other men. 🙂 ”


    I think that’s about as likely to catch on as young 20 year old women being OK with their BF having sex with her friends because she wasn’t up for it that night.

  180.  #180Mel on May 2, 2011 at 2:47 pm


    Re: 168

    “Also, Mel, I would ask myself what I am trying to punish myself for by manifesting this painful situation. And then forgive myself and work through letting go of shame and self-judgment.”

    Can you share more about this? I don’t even know where to begin!

  181.  #181tinque on May 2, 2011 at 2:50 pm

    As for ways men show their love and affection, it may not always be recognized by their women.

    I tell my clients all the time to pay attention. Their men may very well be screaming from the rooftops how deeply they love and adore their woman, but it may not be the way she has been raised or accustomed to hear it. It may not be with words or grand gestures.

    It may very well be with boobie grabbing.

    And this is a beautiful thing. A hugely important lesson.


  182.  #182Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    149 Daria. Lol. I love you. 🙂

  183.  #183Mel on May 2, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    Thanks for your thoughts Rusty.

    Sometimes it feels like I’m going crazy. I know something’s not right, maybe it’s not cheating, but it’s really hard to try to understand why things are going so badly between us and cheating seems like a likely explanation.

    Tinque… yes, it could be more porn. But I also think there might be something more than that because facebook is often the computer window that gets closed if I come into the room. This is the account that has also been given a new password.

    Bottom line is he’s being secretive about something. While I feel like crap for over-reacting and handling things in a horrible fashion, something’s just wrong here.

    What I hate about all of this is it becomes harder to tell “instinct” from anxiety because I feel all wound up in knots over all of this.

    That’s why I don’t want to make any quick decisions. The funny thing is that I was killing time in a book store today and was looking at the “relationship” section, and thought to my self “No!” I don’t want to read another book, I don’t want to try another thing. I’m exhausted and tired and I feel like giving up. Just falling to the floor and quitting doing anything.

    Maybe this is the leaning back I’m looking for….

  184.  #184Lemonice on May 2, 2011 at 3:03 pm


    it would also feel really good to read people being given the benefit of the doubt for trying and gently being pointed to in the right direction. Not all of us are perfect in our riffing and feeling messages yet, and being triggered is not easy. We are all at least attempting to try on, new clothes if you will, in our own baby steps. It doesn’t always fit but we still try. It feels bad to see someone being called out and criticized even if the words used are not blatant. It feels passive/agrressive to me and looks like disguised judgement. Which in turn feels really bad to me.

    Yes it is my “judgement”, and I feel engorged with tummy butterflies for huge fear of of being called out and invalidated, but it is my truth and I can’t hide from it. So I might as well share it and face the music instead. All I can do is hold space and process it out within myself. Leaving it at that for now and peace to all.

  185.  #185Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    177: tinque says:

    My point was that I’ve noticed that sometimes the responses you say you prefer and ways to approach you, the words you choose for us to say, seem to me more the way men interact with each other well and not always the best way for women to interact with you.

    Something to consider is that the suggested ways of approach and speech ala Rori for example may be more a appropriate way, a way that you may not be aware works better with you.


    Understood, but at the same time, some of the advice goes contrary to what will work. A case in point was one of my relationships where I felt like she was way to restrictive on everything. Basically she was a bit of a control freak IMHO. Everything had to be her way.

    OK, so I was coming to the opinion that I might leave the relationship. So I started ignoring her, becoming distant.

    Now the standard advice here is to lean back. But that isn’t what would have worked. Had she come here, she likely would have said everything was great but then I became distant. We did stay together but because she leaned forward, which of course would not be the advice given to her here.

    I think the advice to Mel is great. She needs to lean back. but her story is very different from one where a man might be cheating on her because he feels distant from her.

    What if I were with a woman and felt like she was very cold. Maybe she thinks things are great because I do respect her “no touch” boundaries. She doesn’t know I am cheating, or moving towards cheating, she just knows I now seem distant and uncaring towards her. The last thing she needs to do is lean back.

  186.  #186Ella on May 2, 2011 at 3:04 pm



    And loving your Siren Vibe!


  187.  #187Daria on May 2, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    soo excited and awed!

    i was looking for an EFT practitioner who’s helped me do my most transformative EFT for free…

    and I thought she hadn’t answered me last time… but she DID answer i found!

    so now i wrote her again!

    looking sooo forward to her help!

  188.  #188Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 3:07 pm


    Exactly, Mel…the thing here now as I see it, is putting a stop to all the crazy-making….it is getting you nowhere…..just putting a complete halt to trying to control the situation in any way, including thinking of solutions, reading books, wondering what is going through his mind, what happened, why, what next……just focus on YOU as a separate, autonomous individual, unique person, independent of him, doing the things you like to do, or not doing any things at all…..holding your own in the bubble that is you, him and the relationship. When we do that, everything else seems to take care of itself, whatever that may turn out to be.

  189.  #189Ella on May 2, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    The art of leaning back is about being warm and open… and invitation.

    If a woman can do this no man will feel cold or distant…


  190.  #190Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    181: tinque says:

    As for ways men show their love and affection, it may not always be recognized by their women.

    I tell my clients all the time to pay attention. Their men may very well be screaming from the rooftops how deeply they love and adore their woman, but it may not be the way she has been raised or accustomed to hear it. It may not be with words or grand gestures.

    It may very well be with boobie grabbing.

    And this is a beautiful thing. A hugely important lesson.



    Now this I can agree with. If my wife had a problem with it, I think I would ask, “would you prefer I grabbed somebody else’s?”

    Of course, grabbing seems not what I do. More like caressing. Grabbing sounds hard and forceful…I’
    m more soft and tender.

    And really, it’s not every time, just a lot. But what the heck, we are all going to be in a grave someday. What’s the point of not doing something like that when the moods strikes you? When you are 80 years old and wrinkly and maybe a widow…you going to be glad that you stopped him from touching you all those times? 😉

  191.  #191Daria on May 2, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    🙂 thanks for the love lucy!

  192.  #192Ella on May 2, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    Tinque re 181

    I love that!

    My guys told me they loved me this weekend by:

    buying me a drink
    staying with me instead of going clubbing with his mates
    grabbing my boobies (lol)
    coming to get me when I needed to walk home and didn’t want to walk alone
    Fixing my sky TV
    Making me dinner
    Talking to me and approaching me in pub
    Kissing me a lot (lots of little kisses on face)
    Telling me how much he likes me
    Grabbing my bum.

    And I feel loved.

    So thank you for all the ways you show me you love me!

  193.  #193Daria on May 2, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    “OK, so I was coming to the opinion that I might leave the relationship. So I started ignoring her, becoming distant.

    Now the standard advice here is to lean back. But that isn’t what would have worked. Had she come here, she likely would have said everything was great but then I became distant.””


    standard advice is to lean back AND use fm’s when the man contacts

    “I miss you. I feel distant. Is there something i should know?”

  194.  #194anna on May 2, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    I have a question on what to do in regard to my bf and how he always needs to point on when I am wrong about something and he does it with this tone that triggers me big time. He does it alot in times of stress but I still feel smal. I have expressed it and he says sorry but he happens still. What shoukd I do?

  195.  #195Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 3:16 pm


    ella, i’m gonna have to disagree with you….or, at least state a caveat. warm. open and inviting might attract any man, but some men will retreat, not because the woman has suddenly become cold or did something wrong, but because of their own fears of intimacy or fear of failing or fear of whatever…..my goodness….there are so many variables….and no absolutes

    you sound in a really good space in your recent posts!! 🙂


  196.  #196Ella on May 2, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    @ Queenbee

    “I also noticed that I felt like ‘shouting’ my FMs when the men were not ‘reacting’ to them as per my ‘expectations’. Although nothing really happened for me to have this conclusion…”

    Yep I feel like this too sometimes, and also like stamping my feet.

    I believe that FMs do work, even if the results are not immediately obvious.

    And they work to keep us in touch with how we ar feeling too! Which is important for me…

    And the extra magic is that they help draw him in and feel connected too!


  197.  #197tinque on May 2, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    No Rusty leaning back wouldn’t have worked because you were a foot out the door anyway, and she was not in a place to re-evaluate her actions about being controlling.

    Leaning back is recommended, for it will work if it’s a good match. If the couple are not on the same page, on the same or similar paths of growth, no it won’t work, and this is as it needs to be.

    It’s not meant to work in each and every case. It’s meant as a discovery/uncovery of who is right for her or not.


  198.  #198tinque on May 2, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Yes Ella, beautifully said.


  199.  #199Ella on May 2, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    Elizabeth re 195



  200.  #200Ella on May 2, 2011 at 3:28 pm

    Feel sad to leave you all however I am feeling very tired and it is late here.

    I need to take care of myself by going to sleep now!

    Night lovely Sirens and Rusty too.


  201.  #201Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    184 Lemonice. I’m sorry you are experiencing things as criticism and disguised judgment. I agree completely about giving people the benefit of the doubt. <3

  202.  #202Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Jacqueline #87 – I love what you have to say about taking ownership of our decisions!

  203.  #203The Lurker on May 2, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    #184 Lemonice: “It feels passive/agrressive to me and looks like disguised judgement.”
    Indeed. To me, too. And, sry, ladies, but I really have to vent for one minute: Trigger here, trigger there, one trigger leads to another, yadda yadda yadda! Is this is really how its supposed to be, how Rori recommends it? Because I only see that it so often leads to arguments here, and bruised feelings!

    Actually, I even believe that some here misunderstand that as to mean they have to be extra sensitive for any word mentioned here that may mean something negative to them, and then to blow it up beyond all proportions! Doesn’t matter if a comment was about them in any way or not, everything said here may be seen as a personal insult. For me, as a guy, that is horribly annoying, and from what I witness here it leads to some folks acting like they walk on eggshells, probably out of fear they may trigger someone. OMG, let’s never trigger anyone! Let’s be extra careful with what we say. Better to say nothing than to risk anything! That’s how the discussions here look like sometimes. One group “complaining” about triggers, the other afraid about putting oil into the flames. Grrrrrreat.

    Ok, now I feel better. Sry for this rant. But I really couldn’t stand it anymore. Maybe it’s because of the gender specific different pov, dunno. Or it’s only me. Anyway, I’m off to bed now. Will read the replies tomorrow, when I’ll hopefully feel more like dealing with stuff that triggered you. G’night!

  204.  #204Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Mel, let me ask you something. If you knew he was cheating, or if he was talking with another woman and the talk was very flirty and there was an obvious mutual attraction that appeared to be heading towards a physical relationship, and maybe more, what would you do?

    If you knew that to be the case right now, would you leave the relationship? What if his talks with her included talk of them being together in the future as a couple? What if he was talking about a possible divorce?

    Would you leave, or would you fight for the relationship? I feel bad for you because it appears that you are the one trying and he does not want to try. And worse, he is being secretive at a time when that is not a good thing.

    I think that these days it is much harder for us than it was for our parents and grand parents. I am sure it was much easier for them to tell if a person was cheating. But today there is email, cell phones, and both people often work, so that makes it easier for them to make contact and carry on the emotional side of the relationship in ways that are harder to detect.

    Used to be that you had one phone in your house, but now a guy can talk to his mistress on the phone while he is on the way to work, or on a break as he stands outside of the office. or he can shoot a couple of emails a day to her.

    Harder to catch the mistakes by “accident” the way it used to be done. I for one am really not sure why people think it is a no-no to “snoop.”

    I do agree that it is not the way to go when there seems to be no reason to snoop, but it’s like this: if somebody told you that when he was supposedly going to the gym, he was not there. Maybe a friend decides to tell you this because her husband goes to the same gym and told her that he hasn’t been there for months. OK, what do you do? Most people would follow him on day or have a friend follow him to see where he is going. And I think that is 100% OK. WHY? I think the question is why not.

    Think about this. What if I were your husband and I was the one who stopped going to the gym. So you here that. DO I want you to keep worrying about where I am? No. I mean, what if I found out about this great workshop where you pay a membership and can go make things from wood. So I am in there first learning how to make some little stuff, then start in on this great bedroom set for you, complete with a “king size” hope chest to put at the foot of the king size bed. OK, so you find out in this case, by following, that I am not cheating on you, and that for some reason I am going to a wood shop instead of the gym. So there is no damage being done to our relationship because of your suspicions.

    On the other hand, what if I were going and picking up prostitutes. OK, that is need to know info for you. I could give you a disease.

    On the other hand, what if I am having an affair with someone. Do you not have a right to find that out? I think you do.

    Basically my philosophy is that there is a time and place for everything and just because SOME people get carried away doesn’t mean everyone does. Like salt on you food. A little is good for you. Just because some can’t control themselves doesn’t mean I shouldn’t salt my food.

    In my mind, your husband’s actions are much like a friend coming to you and telling you that something is going on. I would be less worried if it were just random porn sites that he was closing out. Facebook is something else. The only reason to close that out when you walk buy is that he is chatting with someone, or looking at some woman’s wall as you walk buy and so he closes it so you don’t see it.

    To me that is a clear signal that he has something to hide.

    One last thing to consider is this. You are 31. No kids I assume since I have never seen you mention them. Do you want kids? How long are you willing to wait? Honestly, if things were going great, I would assume that you and hubby would be trying very soon.

    If he is cheating, or about to cheat, IMHO that is need to know info. His actions are the catalyst. This is not a case of some psycho woman who hears her loving hubby mention a woman’s name as he answers his cell, (bosses new secretary) and so she goes off the deep end.

    No, this is a situation where he is sending very strong signals that IMHO give you more than enough right to dig to find out what is going on. I was wiling to take up for him when it appeared that this was all about his job, but now I am not so sure. I am not so sure some total hotty secretary/legal aide hasn’t caught his eye.

    Seen this kind of crap before. Guy has a wife who supports him while he is in school, then he graduates, gets a high paying job, and now a woman who only likes him because he has money, catches his eye.

    Now, while I am for you leaning back here, all that may do is give him more time to spend talking to/being with somebody else.

    I feel bad saying this but if you do the leaning back thing, I wouldn’t do it for long. I would start packing. Frankly, IMHO, I think you would be justified to start packing tonight. But that’s just me being the “guy.” 😉

    Whatever you do, I wish you luck. You seem very sweet and I feel bad for you that your guy isn’t giving you the love and attention you deserve.

  205.  #205Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    Okay, this keeps coming up here so I have to tell my little “fondling breasts from behind” story. In eighth grade I read an historical novel from my history teacher’s classroom library, and lo and behold, there was a scene where a man did this to the woman he loved, and reading it felt so exciting and beautiful to this sheltered lil smalltown girl… and instantly ushered in my awakening. So to this day I am quite fond of this particular action. 😀

  206.  #206Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    How to participate in an internet flame war


  207.  #207Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    205: Lucy says:

    Okay, this keeps coming up here so I have to tell my little “fondling breasts from behind” story. In eighth grade I read an historical novel from my history teacher’s classroom library, and lo and behold, there was a scene where a man did this to the woman he loved, and reading it felt so exciting and beautiful to this sheltered lil smalltown girl… and instantly ushered in my awakening. So to this day I am quite fond of this particular action. 😀


    LOL Cool!

    Too me, the whole thing is very intimate, because like I said, this isn’t like Chester the Molester. It is intimate. Lot’s of neck kissing, nuzzling into all that beautiful long hair, lot’s of body contact from the “spooning” action going on at the same time. etc… Adding in caressing with the hands just adds to all of that, and when in that position, the boobs are in the perfect place to be given some attention. 😉

  208.  #208Mel on May 2, 2011 at 3:54 pm


    “If you knew he was cheating, or if he was talking with another woman and the talk was very flirty and there was an obvious mutual attraction that appeared to be heading towards a physical relationship, and maybe more, what would you do?”


    I guess it depends. If he confessed on his own, was truly remorseful and took steps to making it better (ie. counseling, cutting off contact, etc.) I would maybe give him another chance.

    If I found out on my own- after all this time of being patient, forgiving, and putting up with his lying and calling me crazy… I’m not so sure. It would seem like being sorry for getting caught, not being actually sorry.

    I agree. I’m not going to just “hang around” much longer. I’m not 100% sure I want kids, but I see it as a possibility and I don’t want to waste my time in a sinking ship. I also deserve to be treated better than this.

  209.  #209Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 3:56 pm

  210.  #210Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    180 Mel. For myself, I had some shame around sex bc of my upbringing and then also did some things sexually that I felt were “wrong” – and so developed a pattern of manifesting situations where others would shame me about sex even when I wasn’t doing anything “wrong” – as a way to keep shaming and punishing myself. It is hard to write about this on my phone – would be great if others could jump in on this topic. Also I am wondering (I feel anxious bc I don’t want to presume upon anyone) if maybe Dar

  211.  #211Lilybelle on May 2, 2011 at 3:58 pm


    YAY YOU!!!

    Congrats, T!!!


  212.  #212Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    Elizabeth #114 – Hi!

    I really appreciate your feedback (as usual:), and found it very helpful. I do think that the essence here for me is about taking responsibility for myself and where I am at precisely this moment. I’m not sure if this is something I need or want to share with her, or simply an inside job. I feel that there is part of it that I want to express, and maybe keep the rest to myself. Giving myself time to “choose my words.”

    Femininepower says: “sometimes I have strong opinions but choose not to speak because I subscribe to the concept of choosing your battles.”

    Indeed. After I spoke up about my strong opinion, and realized it was a mistake, I backed off. I did not argue with her, and I think that was the best choice for the moment and our relationship.

    Now I do think I need to say something, but I think has to do more with taking ownership of what is going on with me more than anything else.

    She is also not the only person triggering me in this area. It happens quite often that I feel “little girled” and spoken down to or treated as if I were a child. It is incredibly frustrating, as that is the opposite of what i want. And yet I can feel, if not see, that I am the one generating the behavior that is creating this kind of response from people. That tends to make it more frustrating, because the more I try to fix what I’m doing, the more I seem to make things worse. It may be from habit, or just a feeling of always being a little girl and helpless and not ever allowing myself to “grow up,” and be responsible, even though that’s what I want.

    I really appreciate all your feedback!

  213.  #213Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    (cont’d) if maybe Daria would want to privately coach you through some inner healing stuff for an agreed-upon fee. Daria and Mel, it’s just an idea that came to mind. <3

  214.  #214Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    203 Lurker. I agree it feels awful – so many times I write something completely innocent and someone takes it the wrong way and I feel bewildered about how it takes on a whole life of its own. Walking on eggshells indeed.

  215.  #215Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    Rusty – re: morning sex.

    Hey, some women *love* morning sex!

    Some women love to have their boobs grabbed.

    On the general discussion, I don’t think it is the constant fondling that makes a woman feel like a sex object (but I hate – my worst PDA pet peeve ever – is men kissing their ladies on the shoulder in public. I don’t know why I find this so bothersome, but it’s like they are staking out their property. Ugh.) Maybe I want to be fondled as much as possible. But I think there is a big difference between someone touching you because you (the woman) like it and get pleasure, and because they (the man) gets pleasure from feeling up the woman. Ideally, it is both. Using someone else for your own pleasure is objectifying. *That* is where it bothers me and feels bad. Feeling as if I am “on call” or that a man thinks I am available to him all the time, just because I touched him once or spent a little time with him, feels bad. It feels as if he doesn’t appreciate me – only what I can “do” for him. I’ve gone along with something like this occasionally, but only if it was also the case that I was getting something out of it, too. But it rarely ever lasts for long. Two people using each other for their personal enjoyment is really just a form of codependency, and is not a healthy relationship.

    I know I’m pretty much preaching to the choir. And, Rusty, I know you know that generalizations are not always correct. But some women do genuinely love morning sex!!! (and afternoon sex, and lunch sex, and evening sex, and…you get the idea:D)

  216.  #216Daria on May 2, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    I would feel honored to coach anyone who wants my help
    for gifts or donations or just blessings.

    I’m at magicgoddessmedicinewoman@gmail.com

  217.  #217Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    203: The LurkerNo Gravatar says:

    #184 Lemonice: “It feels passive/agrressive to me and looks like disguised judgement.”
    Indeed. To me, too. And, sry, ladies, but I really have to vent for one minute: Trigger here, trigger there, one trigger leads to another, yadda yadda yadda! Is this is really how its supposed to be, how Rori recommends it? Because I only see that it so often leads to arguments here, and bruised feelings!

    Actually, I even believe that some here misunderstand that as to mean they have to be extra sensitive for any word mentioned here that may mean something negative to them, and then to blow it up beyond all proportions! Doesn’t matter if a comment was about them in any way or not, everything said here may be seen as a personal insult. For me, as a guy, that is horribly annoying, and from what I witness here it leads to some folks acting like they walk on eggshells, probably out of fear they may trigger someone. OMG, let’s never trigger anyone! Let’s be extra careful with what we say. Better to say nothing than to risk anything! That’s how the discussions here look like sometimes. One group “complaining” about triggers, the other afraid about putting oil into the flames. Grrrrrreat.

    Ok, now I feel better. Sry for this rant. But I really couldn’t stand it anymore. Maybe it’s because of the gender specific different pov, dunno. Or it’s only me. Anyway, I’m off to bed now. Will read the replies tomorrow, when I’ll hopefully feel more like dealing with stuff that triggered you. G’night!


    Great post. I feel the same so maybe it is a gender thing. I just post what I am thinking, and if it triggers someone, I will apologize, but I am not going to stop posting what I think. That’s what message boards are for. I am also pretty thick skinned so I can take Elizabeth’s tomato throwing. 😉 😛

  218.  #218Daria on May 2, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    triggers belong to the person.

    They don’t belong to the person doing the triggering. Only intent belongs to them.

    being triggered BECAUSE someone else is triggered by my words is… familiar… and common.

    it’s about safety, family dynamics, and… control, and outside validation for me

  219.  #219Daria on May 2, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Triggers are an opportunity to heal. the person being triggered gets a chance to SEE themselves being triggered…

    then use a healing exercise… like:

    > hugging the part that feels upset.

    > speaking their feelings where before they didn’t

    > riffing

    > EFT

    > walking away

    ANYTHING. that is DIFFERENT from a behavior they would have used before that is part of their pattern

  220.  #220Daria on May 2, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    the reason a “trigger” is named that, is because it’s something that upsets us….

    because it Triggers! a past event memory and starts running the trauma response and pattern created around that PAST EVENT

    it is NOT about the present moment that triggered us.

    We may not identify the past event … and using Rori’s methods… don’t really NEED to. all that is needed is to STOP then choose to do something DIFFERENT

    to short circuit that pattern that has gotten triggered

  221.  #221Daria on May 2, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    something cannot FEEL passive agressive. it only SEEMS that way. this is a judgement and perception… which is ok as long as it leads to healing…

    it Feels… uncomfortable, scary, confusing, icky, disturbing, like my tummy turning, like my head being foggy, angrifying 🙂

  222.  #222Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    TMizz – Thank you! I’m sorry your friend situation is hurting you. And I know it doesn’t feel good to feel big sistered…smile…I think friendships ebb and flow; but I do think with our real/true friends we can speak our truths…I would hope so anyway.

    What behavior do you think is causing this reaction of being spoken down to?

    It just doesn’t seem like you to me, I experience you as so grown up and level headed.

    Sometimes I think we attempt tooo hard to use I messages and feeeelings…and others perceive it as weak.

    So they tell us what do to. lol…



  223.  #223Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    Rusty – Hi! Was wondering if you’d be back; and that was the question I was asking….if the worst were true how would it be handled –

    and Mel, I’m glad you’ve thought it through and like your thinking. You actually sound kind of good.

    How is job? I hope you do make getting a car a big priority so if you need to you can do a walk away as a drive away!

  224.  #224Lilybelle on May 2, 2011 at 4:28 pm


    Daria, you have great value you here and your response to private coaching was exactly as I though you would answer. Graceful and open. You are blessed!

    Good thinking, Lucy!!


  225.  #225Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    Lucy, were you chiding me? I didn’t get it…
    I don’t do subtle very well.

    And Lurker – this is a self help blog! Yep, triggers triggers all the time….it’s a way of thinking new thoughts, examining unexamined beliefs and assumptions and expressing emotions. It’s a GOOD thing – per Rori!

    Elizabeth – flame wars? I’m afraid to look….but I’ve seen a few and never ever here!!

  226.  #226Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    215: Tmizz says:

    Rusty – re: morning sex.

    Hey, some women *love* morning sex!

    Some women love to have their boobs grabbed.

    On the general discussion, I don’t think it is the constant fondling that makes a woman feel like a sex object (but I hate – my worst PDA pet peeve ever – is men kissing their ladies on the shoulder in public. I don’t know why I find this so bothersome, but it’s like they are staking out their property. Ugh.) Maybe I want to be fondled as much as possible. But I think there is a big difference between someone touching you because you (the woman) like it and get pleasure, and because they (the man) gets pleasure from feeling up the woman. Ideally, it is both. Using someone else for your own pleasure is objectifying. *That* is where it bothers me and feels bad. Feeling as if I am “on call” or that a man thinks I am available to him all the time, just because I touched him once or spent a little time with him, feels bad. It feels as if he doesn’t appreciate me – only what I can “do” for him. I’ve gone along with something like this occasionally, but only if it was also the case that I was getting something out of it, too. But it rarely ever lasts for long. Two people using each other for their personal enjoyment is really just a form of codependency, and is not a healthy relationship.

    I know I’m pretty much preaching to the choir. And, Rusty, I know you know that generalizations are not always correct. But some women do genuinely love morning sex!!! (and afternoon sex, and lunch sex, and evening sex, and…you get the idea:D)


    There is something wrong with staking out your territory? Lurker…help me out with this one. I’m not seeing the wrong in it. 😉 Seriously…I’m not. 😀

    Reminds me of when I was in Australia. How man would believe me when I tell you that I dated a girl named Lisa for 6 days and this Lisa was the childhood friend of Nicole Kidman? She was, and had proof. Not just childhood, even as adults.

    Anyway, we were at a place called Woolamaloo’s. Sort of like a sports bar. Was near where our ship was tied up. One of those bars that took over another building and turned several offices/rooms into one bar.

    Anyway, we are sitting there, it wasn’t busy but there were a few people there. She knew 5 people in the corner. 3 guys and 2 girls. She asked me if I could tell who the couples were. One guy was single, the other 4 people made up 2 couples.

    I could not tell who was with who but I did guess one couple right and matched the single guy with the other girl.

    In America, men and women “act” more like a couple and much of that is “staking” your territory type behavior which is done in mostly innocent ways, such as simply putting your arm around the person.

    I find it funny that you see this as a problem because some women want the man to show that he is proud to be with her.

    I remember reading a “relationship” book and it seemed that this was a problem and it used an example where a man and woman are walking through a mall and holding hands when they run into a few of his friends. he immediately dropped her hand and the book said that this sends a signal to her that he is ashamed to be seen with her, or something to that effect.

    I don’t do the shoulder kissing thing, but if we are at a party and my wife is talking with a group of people, I might walk up and just put my arm around her. I see no reason not to. And yes, sometimes I am actually thinking, “Just so you know, she is taken.”

    I would have HUGE problems if she did not send the same signals at that point. Imagine this…your man is talking with some really hot woman at a party and you walk up and cuddle into him and say high. But in a mirror you see him look at the other woman and roll his eyes. Why would he do that? To tell her, “Don’t make too much of this.” Who knows what he will say to her about you when he next gets a chance to be alone with her.

    I’ve been in that situation a couple of times. It’s so obvious what is going on when she asks you to go get her a drink, or tries to send you off on some other little errand. She’s going to make sure he knows that the way is clear.

    You know it’s over when this happens in a relationship.

    I didn’t need a mirror though. I am good at reading facial expressions. Some a blind man could read. pretty obvious when she doesn’t make a move that reciprocates and and you see him looking at her face and then he smirks. Guys have a way of sending a signal to you that says, “You need to be worried, but there is nothing you can do about it.”

  227.  #227Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    Oh, Daria – you said it better than me! Really great to read – esp. the anything differently part! cool!

  228.  #228Rusty on May 2, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    Well got to go ladies, and Lurker. Been busy lately.

  229.  #229Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    220 Daria


    and other words for trigger are:

    limiting belief

    maybe some others

  230.  #230Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    I just post what I am thinking, and if it triggers someone, I will apologize, but I am not going to stop posting what I think. That’s what message boards are for. I am also pretty thick skinned so I can take Elizabeth’s tomato throwing.

    Aww I wanna claim this, but I know deep down, I’m “supposed” to post what I’m feeling. Drat.

    Am wondering if I posted under Jack I could do it too?

    Then it occurs to me, I wouldn’t even need to be here to talk about what I think!

    yep, come for the triggers, stay to work through them.

  231.  #231Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    Wow – okay 3 guys say hello to me and one emails from the fall of ’08 asking if he can rekindle our old email…

    WTH? Vibe changed much, J???

    I so want to know what I’ve done so I can keep doing it.


  232.  #232Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    “Take Two” makes me think of something like a pill – like, “take two of these and call me in the morning.” ha.

    But seriously, I do this all the time…in my head.

    (Take two, take three, take four. Until I’ve run the scene every possible way, including the way it actually happened, but wish it didn’t…)

  233.  #233Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    re: Jacqueline #222 – Thanks!

    “Sometimes I think we attempt tooo hard to use I messages and feeeelings…and others perceive it as weak.”

    I think you hit the nail right on the head…

    Hugs to you, too! ((J))

  234.  #234Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    Rusty #226 – hm, trying to decide where to go with this…

    I think it’s interesting how you picked out my one teeny side note and really got going it. teehee!

    I guess, to me, it’s not so much the “staking out the territory” per se that really bothers me. I actually would feel great if my man came up and “claimed” me in front of someone else at a party, by, say, putting his arm around my waist, or even kissing me on the lips or cheek. I am afraid that I am at a loss to articulate exactly what it is about kissing on the shoulder that makes me feel so icky. All I know is, I watched my friend’s boyfriend do this to her once, and it gave me the hugest heebie jeebies. He hardly talked, he just sat there and kissed her shoulder. I didn’t like him. Later, it turned out he was incredibly jealous, and she had to leave her college because he was stalking her. I got the same icky feeling one time when I was sitting on a bus, and the couple in front of me were being all PDA, and he really just couldn’t stop kissing her shoulder. I wanted to tell them to get a room. It gave me the creeps.

    I don’t know why. It’s not like there is anything gross about a shoulder. But I guess, if you put your arm around someone, or kiss them on the face, then they are interacting with you, and they are allowing you to be “possessive.” Whereas, this doesn’t happen with a shoulder. A shoulder doesn’t interact with you at all. Or maybe there is something so intensely sexual about shoulders that I can’t even name it. Heck, I like it when someone kisses my shoulder in private. And I swear I do not have a shoulder fetish. But I’m glad you don’t kiss your wife on the shoulder in public – otherwise I’d have to start worrying about you! lol

  235.  #235Tmizz on May 2, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    Also, I don’t think this is everyone’s pet peeve – just mine! 🙂

  236.  #236Daria on May 2, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    thanks lilybelle

    that feels good

    and the truth is, a little scary too, because… there are parts of me that i think would come off ungracious too

    🙂 felt scary to say that

    love me

  237.  #237Daria on May 2, 2011 at 5:17 pm

    well felt relieving

    am feleing rushed to go DO something i am choosing to do

  238.  #238Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 5:18 pm

    lol…yeah I’ve been wondering if we would talk about the topic! I don’t know many – or any?… men who would do this – but I do know it totally works on an energetic level, like if you stub your toe. Years ago I learned you go and repeat the action without stubbing your toe – and physical pain dissapears much faster sometimes just within the act of repeating.

    Thank you TMizz!

    You are powerful and expansive and beautiful. No one else’s reality can touch that. Your own heart will draw to you all the love that it can hold, and no one can make you “less than,” even if it feels that way. Call your own love to you, bundle it into a spindle in your heart and mind…and send the thread out into the universe….to flutter and fly and become a silver cord into your very own soul that will pull the one who loves you into your reality of this time and space. And know that you’ve done well, and it is done, in reality, at that moment – and it comes to you in time, in your time. The gift of your heart’s desire is mean to be yours, or it would not BE your heart’s desire!

    I’m glad you’re back for however long you can stay!

  239.  #239luzydel on May 2, 2011 at 5:35 pm

    OK got another clue to my feelings…

    I feel guilty if I date while I have things to take care of. I feel guilty and like a bad mother if I leave my son with a sitter to go on a date. I feel guilty if I think of dating instead of my career and future.

    I like how men can separate these things so easy without feeling guilty.

    I feel selfish and easy and desperate, if I leave my work for a while and go on a date.

  240.  #240Daria on May 2, 2011 at 5:36 pm

    That was self judgement and unworthiness for me

    And… We own our intent And our words

    Which is why we choose them to be heard as much as possible and not trigger… To be heard. And we learn what works

    Through intuition, experience,

  241.  #241Daria on May 2, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    Luzydel – that stems from old beliefs about our unworthiness and Feeling selfish to put ourselves first

    Also dating IS about our future and our happiness, and about our happiness now

  242.  #242Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    Luzydel – how does that feel in your body? Where do you feel it? If it were water, how much water would it be? If it were a color what color would it be?

    and repeat….feel the questions inside your body. It changes your perceptions and your feelings.

    If you want to – and I’m glad you’re getting clues.

    And yes, it can feel overwhelming to me too – like since we went to the Carnival on Sat., Sunday was double duty chores till 9 p.m. and extremely draining.

    I’ll tell you happy thoughts but the fact that you said you had a “clue” makes me more interested in the feelings and sensations behind the feelings…if you want to go there?


  243.  #243Dorothea on May 2, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    Today my vibe shifted. I feel good and strong, and loving of my weakest parts.

    It occurred to me today that I would feel a lot happier and confident if i took better care of my appearance.

    I want to be an adorable flower, every day!

    Sadly working full time gets in the way of spending lots of time beautifying myself.

    I feel jealous of women who show up to work every day

  244.  #244Dorothea on May 2, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    I feel jealous of women who show up to work every day looking polished, as though it were effortless*

  245.  #245Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 6:28 pm

    RE 203 Lurker it’s not only you, me too. I have felt the same way too and had decided to leave the blog at one time because of that. I also wonder how new people coming here must feel about because I was also new when it happened. Sometimes I feel sympathy towards men because of that and have to wonder.

  246.  #246Lemonice on May 2, 2011 at 6:36 pm

    I agree with Rusty. Most forums are like that, and it’s nice to have people on here thinking!

  247.  #247Turtle Girl on May 2, 2011 at 6:39 pm

    Morning sex? I love it.
    Afternoon sex? I love it.
    Evening sex? I love it.

    impish laughter…….xxoo

  248.  #248Turtle Girl on May 2, 2011 at 6:42 pm

    OK admittedly feeling sex deprived right about now……argh……!!!!!!

  249.  #249LonePlum on May 2, 2011 at 7:00 pm

    Ella 142

    ***I wonder why I am attracting men with g,friends… weird… ***

    I don’t know if it applies in your case but when a woman is afraid to be rejected, married men like her a lot more than available men.

    She unconsciously puts a wall up when she is around available men, because she is afraid to be rejected if they should ever know the real “me”. She keeps in her head, dealing with her NV. She is not authentic. Available men can’t see who she is and they get her masculine vibe.

    When she is around married men, she feels safe. They are not available, she does not care if they find her not good enough, she stays out of her head, her insecurities do not kick in. She is in her body and men get her feminine vibe. They see who she is because she is real with them. They get her and they like it.

    But as you say, it might also be that you live in a small town where most men have a girl friend and you being pretty and working on being open, well, the men you meet feel attracted to you.


  250.  #250Femininepower on May 2, 2011 at 7:06 pm

    RE 249 Loneplum I can so see myself in those words. Things have changed over the last several years but I remember at least two guys told me they did not know what happened. In the meantime I was getting all kinds of married men being attracted to me. I even remember years ago after a guy I was repulsed by getting married, how totally relaxed I became around him to the point of being friends. That is so eyeopening.

  251.  #251Dorothea on May 2, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    249 loneplum
    wow you just turned on a light bulb for me.

  252.  #252Rosa on May 2, 2011 at 7:17 pm


    This situation reeks .

    There is a problem -a real big one. You and your husband are not communicating truths about how you are feeling. Maybe YOU have , but its not coming back at you.

    You have huge fears .
    He is meeting them with anger and stone walling.

    If you are blaming, then stop, if accusing ,then stop. If nagging or repeatedly asking for information stop.

    Try stating simply your fears.

    Maybe try a written communique?

    Dear Hubby,

    I feel so scared right now. I feel alone and I miss you.
    There are problems that we need to solve.
    It looks like this marriage is in trouble .

    This is what I have noticed. I have noticed we dont have sex. I have noticed we dont have fun and laugh together. I have noticed that you are distracted and on the laptop often and refusing to discuss that in a way that makes me feel sick inside.I feel terrified the marriage is in trouble.

    I dont want to be left in the dark about your feelings and what is going on in this marriage.

    I dont want to lose you .

    I want us to talk about this.

    If this fails and he stone walls again, i would move to a walk away version , ie go off on a weekend or 3days away , no discussion with him, just get outta there for some SPACE.

    Its about YOU getting in the drivers seat of your life and feelings and not remaining powerless at the whim of his denials and angry outbursts and silence.

    This may shock him into a discussion. If not at least you will not be the VICTIM of his issues.

  253.  #253Dorothea on May 2, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    i like rosa’s idea a lot and i would just tweak the letter to be less blaming.

  254.  #254Jim on May 2, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    248: Turtle Girl

    WOW, I heard that!! Here’s to wishing both of us get some… sooner than later.

    I haven’t been with a woman in 3 years, Passed on more than a few opportunities and walked away. For what? Love.

    Now I’m beginning to wonder if I made the right choice…? Oh well. Still holding my ground though.

    Ladies, comments appreciated here!!

  255.  #255Lemonice on May 2, 2011 at 7:26 pm

    Hey Lurker, thanks for the agreement. 🙂 I’m a girl and this is why I quit coming on here. And really, it’s always the same people nitpicking apart the same people and it’s like…this is the song that never ends. I thought I could handle it this time and not feel drained, but now I’m not so sure again. We’ll see. 🙂

  256.  #256turquoise3 on May 2, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    Mel… ah sweetie… this keeps going round and round and round for you. I have been there, and really want to TELL YOU what to do.. but I can’t. You need to make those choices for yourself. I’m trying to think of how to say what I need to, for you to hear me, without it sounding pushy.

    This is what I’ve come up with. I was where you are 6 years ago.. so I’m going to write a letter to myself, back then, with the knowledge I have now. This is what I wish I had told myself..

    Dear Cam,

    I know you don’t want to hear this, because you still love him, but this needs to stop. Things are just getting worse, year after year. You have been living in a marriage with a man who doesn’t know if he wants to be there. He loves you, but isn’t in love with you, and you are waiting for him to choose you. You walk on eggshells to not upset him, try to do things that will make him happy, cook his favorite meals, and ENDURE the lonliness in your own home, even when he is there with you. He wants sex, but you don’t feel loved. You don’t feel secure, but you sleep with him anyways, hoping to reignite the spark that brought you together. You cry in the shower, wonder what you did wrong… and just hope that the next move or fresh start will make things better. He isn’t happy, so you can’t feel happy. Things aren’t changing.

    You are a smart girl, you know that what he’s doing online, he’s keeping from you. He doesn’t want you to know, because he knows it’s wrong. It may just be porn and women he won’t meet… but that adult finder site, is meant to bring local people together for hooking up. If he didn’t think he’d get caught, would he do it? If he knew I’d never find out, I think he might. He’s distancing himself from the relationship, and being responsible for my feelings… because he’s considering walking out. Are there any good excuses for his behavior? No, he’s not acting in a loving way toward me or our relationship. If he really loved me and cared about our relationship that he wanted to save it, at some point, he’d think about what was best for us, not just what he can do to make it worse.

    Please Cam, stop waiting, giving him space, not complaining, all out of fear that he will leave you. CHOOSE what you want for yourself. No matter what, he still might leave, but what you are doing, isn’t working and things aren’t better. Every time you take a stand, he notices. He isn’t sure he wants a divorce, so when he sees you being strong, he’s a little nicer, flashes a big smile, cuddles on the couch… until you feel a little more secure, and then he pulls away again. He’s steering the car, right to the edge of the cliff, and you don’t even have your seatbelt on. If you aren’t ready to leave him, at least start to find yourself.

    1. Get a counselor now. Not next week, tomorrow. Make an appointment, and go, all by yourself. Talk to someone, don’t even let him go with you the first few times. He said he doesn’t want counseling Cam, well good.. you need some help, from someone outside your circle, who can help you. If you don’t like the therapist, find a new one, but do this. now. end of discussion on that topic.

    2. Stop talking to him. If he asks a question, answer, if he asks why you aren’t talking, tell him you don’t feel like it. He’s not ready to give you the truth and answers you need… you are done being ignored or listening to excuses. Don’t be home when he is. Go for a walk. Take the car and go on a long drive. Leave him home to wonder where you are, and if/when you’ll be back. Don’t answer your cell phone. Give him a few doses of the worry he’s given to you. If he isn’t worried or concerned, let that fuel some inner strength. Yes, he may be home online looking at porn, talking to an old girlfriend on facebook, or chatting with someone he might consider having an affair with… but you can’t control him. That is on him. He’s doing it anyways, even with you at home, so stop thinking that it can be controlled just by you being there.

    3. Check out the bank records. Know how much you have, and keep some emergency cash on hand. He has a gambling issue, why are you trusting him that he wont’ take it or spend it all? Protect yourself.

    4. Take care of you. Eat well, go to the gym, get your checkups, get your teeth whitened. Make a new friend, make plans without him. Imagine what your life will be like if he isn’t a part of it. Don’t lean back because you want him to notice and feel less pressured. Lean back and find yourself again. Be who you want to be in life, not a sad wife who explains away the gut instinct feelings of fear and pain, being ignored and unloved because you are afraid they are true. Stop being in denial, blaming yourself, or feeling responsible for where he is in the relationship. You didn’t cheat on him, lie to him, you aren’t on drugs or an alcoholic. You aren’t verbally abusing him or treating him badly. It takes two for a marriage to work, or fall apart… but you both have to want it to survive in order for it to happen. Be the best you that you can be.. and know that you are enough for yourself. You don’t need a man to feel whole. Especially not a man who isn’t sure he wants to be there. A man who doesn’t want to hear that you love him, because it makes him feel guilty.

    Then Cam, take stock of where you are and know, that even if he does come around, and things start to get better… you can’t stop doing those things. You keep seeing the therapist, hopefully he’ll join you, you take time for yourself. When he’s ready to talk, be open and receptive. Don’t blame or criticize, learn techniques on open communication. Really listen to what he’s telling you. Be willing to work on your marriage together. Make a commitment to be a team, on the same side. Set small goals together, make time for each other… be romantic and loving with each other. Hold hands, take long walks, start small.

    Just know, ignoring the issue isn’t going to help anything. You are getting to the edge of the cliff, and if you don’t take some action, it’s going to fall over. The relationship is savable… but it is going to take a lot more time than you hope. You might have to work on this for years. If you want more children, keep that in mind. You are 31 years old Cam… really think about what you want for yourself, if this relationship is worth the effort it will take to save it, if it’s savable, and if it’s what you want for your future.

    Mel… I know we aren’t the same people, no two situations are exactly alike. But I hope some of what I wish I’d done, before it really was too late, and divorce papers were filed, is listed above. Take what might help, leave the rest, and just know I’m thinking of you, and I’m on your side!

    Big hugs!!!

  257.  #257Mercedes on May 2, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Jim: “Now I’m beginning to wonder if I made the right choice…? ”

    In my opinion…love is worth waiting for. REALLY, REALLY worth waiting for.

    Just make sure you are taking steps to find that love and that you aren’t putting walls up that stop it from entering your life.

    I wish you all the best and commend you for holding your ground rather than compromising what you want by using someone for sex.

    And Rosa: “Its about YOU getting in the drivers seat of your life and feelings and not remaining powerless at the whim of his denials and angry outbursts and silence.”

    Oh yeah…that is TRULY what it is all about.

    Much Love,

  258.  #258Mercedes on May 2, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    Mel: Sometimes it hurts so much…I know. It hurts to know, it hurts not to know, it hurts to wonder…it just plain hurts…a LOT. 🙁

    I just want you to know…I know how much it hurts.

    Much Love,

  259.  #259Dorothea on May 2, 2011 at 7:46 pm

    As someone who has never had casual sex and few partners, for some reason i feel sorry for someone who is bummed out about not getting any nookie, and the reason they’ve chosen not to is “to hold out for love.”

    how does getting some nookie prevent love? i don’t see how self denial logically leads to love.

    i don’t have casual sex cuz i usually dont feel comfortable having sex without love, but if i did have casual sex, i don’t see how that would get in the way of finding love.

  260.  #260RiverGirl on May 2, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    147: Rusty says:
    “Fair enough, but then, what Lurker and I do here is simply offer a man’s point of view…something that you can’t do. And the advice we give is from a man’s perspective…something you can’t give. We can also say that, as a man, we would prefer that you handle it this way, if you were our girl, which is again, something you can’t do.

    So our place her is different than yours, but I would say, no less valuable.”

    Rusty, I would say that the input from the guys on this blog is very valuable and I read it in the same way that I read the input from the girls, as another individual’s take on a situation, based on their own experience. In other words I don’t take the advice from the girls as a representative of the female experience or the advice from the guys as representative the male experience in general. I believe that there are as many differences within the sexes as there are between them. (Physical differences aside) 😉

    For me, everyone’s comments offer the possibility of new understanding. I put them through the filter of my own understanding and experience and decide if the comments offer opportunity for growth and a better (for me) course of action.
    Keep it coming!

  261.  #261Violet on May 2, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    Hello, Everyone!

    This is in regards to Post 5. by Mel.
    I’m standing at the point of view of an outsider, looking in.

    My initial gut instinct tells me something is wrong.
    Otherwise, there would be an open line of communication.

    I compared it to a kid being caught with a hand in the cookie jar.

    Mel, you are not crazy, you don’t have to apologize for feeling the way you do, your feelings have validity, your instincts are probably right.

    It all comes down to how the situation is going to be handled. Continuous questioning, accusations, non-communication, pushing, etc… is only going to make things worse.

    There is a level of trust that feels betrayed by secretive behavior.

    I’ve read some very good advice from others. I don’t want to come off telling you the way to go, or that I have the ultimate answer.

    There are a few ideas that had a good ‘feel’. One was counseling and invite him. ‘If’ he refused, don’t press it. Say, “okay” and that’s it.

    Another idea was simply to focus on yourself. I read from one of the men that you may want to withold physical intimacy until positive communication is re-established.


    I have a totally different way of handling things. I’m really straightforward and approach things head on. I’ll speak my mind and say exactly how something makes me feel.

    I act the way I would want to be treated. Not with ridicule, recriminations, accusations, blame, etc.. I say how I feel and that’s it.

    I decide what I want to do about it, and do it. I will not apologize for how I feel. I realize that I can’t control what someone else chooses to do or say. I can control my actions and/or reactions towards it.

    There is one thing I know for a fact. There isn’t anything I do or say that will change another person. They have to see that there is a problem, accept their responsibility towards it, and change accordingly.

    I want it known that I don’t have all the answers to lifes’ problems. I am not perfect and I never will be. I will never be able to put my feet in someone else’s shoes, or even state for a fact what my reaction would be when it came right down to it.

    My prayers go out to those in need. My thanks go out to those who inspire others.

    Thank you for reading this,

    ~ Violet ~

  262.  #262Mel on May 2, 2011 at 8:10 pm

    Thanks Camille & Mercedes!

    …sobbing… but I need to get some sleep. Or maybe some fresh air. I don’t know. I don’t even know what I want any more.

  263.  #263Mel on May 2, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    and thanks Violet!

  264.  #264Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 8:12 pm

    225 Jacqueline, no, I wasn’t chiding you, not at all. I don’t do subtle well either. 🙂 Love you! <3

  265.  #265Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    254. Jim

    Ya know, Jim, I’m starting to think, at our age,
    in the words of the immortal Tina Turner,
    “What’s love got to do, got to do with it?”

    It’s nice to “get some”. Maybe you and me and Turtle Girl should get together. just kidding!!

    I’m not holding out for love. I just want a decent guy who likes to play house and will stick around for a while and be good to me and we take care of each other.

    So, what’s the latest with GF? Any closer to some kind of new understanding?

    you asked me in another thread, what’s it feel like to be an anchorwoman? Well, it feels fun, like Tina Fey on SNL!


  266.  #266Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    230 Jacqueline, that feels good to read!

  267.  #267Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 8:26 pm

    231: Jacqueline says:

    “I so want to know what I’ve done so I can keep doing it.



    ah…but whatever it is you’ve done is so elusive…it can’t be pinned down, or it will die…let it fly, and it will keep coming back to you when you least expect it….
    don’t mind me…i am very prolific today 😉

    Hi Jacq!! are you trigger happy today? 🙂


  268.  #268LonePlum on May 2, 2011 at 8:29 pm

    Awww Mel I feel you.

    I am sending warm hugs and strength to you. You will be good, no matter what.
    I hope you will consider Camille’s idea to check your bank account?


  269.  #269Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    Thanks Lucy! Rori warned me once about “projection” that it happens on the internet and you have to be able to take it. But it’s easier just to ask..lol. And yes, actually, me even discussing my point of view is a huge difference for me from the past. I would have simply felt sorry for (pity) or glad it wasn’t me and kept my mouth shut. Sticking with it and voicing my feelings out loud – when it feels like every single person here is yelling shut up!!!!! is difficult. But I think it’s good for me, and it is the point. And for me to even focus on feeeeelings…well we all know how amazing that is, huh? Smile.

    I was wondering how your daughter is? And hoping you come to your own conclusions about the date; I had a theory going….something about intimacy and you and how I can’t imagine you being who you are and not being a man’s one and only. Diluted intimacy is not for you…seems to me. But it’s all good fun as long as it is fun.

    A big hug to the fabulous Princess in the storybook…and sweet dreams too!


  270.  #270Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 8:39 pm

    Hi, Elizabeth!! I haven’t posted actively in weeks – so today’s been kind of fun. Probably won’t be around but for my once a day check in the rest of the week; but today I indulged, guiltily too…but I did get in a work out and lots of chores, so it’s all good.

    Cheshire J

  271.  #271Elizabeth on May 2, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    mmm, no, actually i DO want mutual love, but not because I need it to feel loved, approved of and accepted.


  272.  #272Lemonice on May 2, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    269 Jacqueline : “Sticking with it and voicing my feelings out loud – when it feels like every single person here is yelling shut up!!!!! is difficult”

    I feel like hugging you for this. I feel like crying a little too. I was always able to sense this about you, yet you keep plugging away trying a technique that does not come easy to you. That’s why I felt hot rush of rage in the pit of my ribs reading this blog the past couple of weeks. Then I decided to come out of hiatus even for awhile. I wished I was as brave as you. As Andy said to Ducky in Pretty in Pink, “May I admire you?” 🙂 Hugs to you sweetheart, and keep on truckin. 🙂

  273.  #273Jim on May 2, 2011 at 9:03 pm

    256: turquouse3

    WOW, that was good!

    Now if I may interject my story, I’m the guy you are talking about. I’d just like to say my situation and my side.

    I went through just that what your talking about, that’s what she thought of me, almost verbatim. Though I didn’t drink and wasn’t online.

    Without going through all the specifics you did. I’ll just say what was going on and what happened to me.

    First the truth about myself, without all the history that led me to that place.
    Emotionally I didn’t know how to relate to my woman, though I deeply cared for her. Of course she would probably and maybe to this day. Would still say that wasn’t true. She constantly accused me of this and that, I was “always” on the defense, always. The book, “He’s just not that into you.” Was her inspiration and revelation. She believed ever word and seen everything the way she wanted to.

    I tried talking with her over the years. My guess is, she could have wrote that letter to herself for all I know. She had me all figured out in her mind and like her brother said, referring to her and her sisters, “They are all like that. Once they get something in their mind, that’s it. There’s no changing it.”

    She went to a therapist too. Even told the therapist I wouldn’t go. What she did do was take an element of truth and turn it into a tragedy that I created.
    Example- I told her she was a great cook and she was. Though there were times she would make things I just don’t eat and that’s ok, she can make things she liked. I’d just eat out or something. I wouldn’t get all but hurt because she didn’t make what I liked. Though she would, each and every time. So she told her therapist I didn’t like her cooking.
    That is just one of many many spins she would put on things to get people to sympathize with her poor predicament being with such an abuser as myself.

    So many women are truly victimized by men it’s pathetic. But she played it all right… I was the bad guy and further more… when the shit hit the fan, after she stepped out with another man, putting all off on me like I was the bad guy.

    I was devastated emotionally, I thought myself the worlds worst piece of shit and that it was all my fault. It took me a long time to come to a point where I could finally look back on the past and see it for what it was. i was 2 years plus completely messed up. Sure I wasn’t a perfect man, just a man, with all the same hardships as any other and still doing my best to get along in life.

    So I’d say from that letter to herself, she had it all figured out. I had to go. People joined her side I was so seriously brutally beaten, I never stood a chance with this woman. In the end, all she was doing to me… was what had happened to her by men. Just my luck. Not to worry, I don’t feel sorry for my devastated self anymore. Now I’m dealing with that and trying to get with a woman that in a nut shell…

    Supported her ex husband for 7 years, he never worked a day, then when she filed for divorce, he took her for 150,000.00. I’m so sick and tired of coming behind 2 things. Asshole men who take advantage and stupid women that can’t recover and bring their disease into a relationship for me to deal with or won’t go out with me because they think themselves irreparably damaged.

    So here I am again, liking a woman, that is almost in the same place as B was before she met me. Only this time I know before hand and am taking things slowly. Because in her too, I can see where she will make up her mind in a moment. That result will be on my back and I don’t like it. Though, I have learned, I will try to help, do whatever my part is, now that I have wisdom. BUT, given a fair amount of time, I have to some kind of progress.

    I’ve always been a pretty smart guy, though when it comes to some of the simplest things, common sense things, even at the late great age of 50, I can be clueless.

    Like me, people would say something to her and she would respond as if you said something entirely different. We would tell her we didn’t say that and it was taken as we were lying. So so many times.

    Most men that I know, if they’d suffered to the degree I did, they would never even try to love again. Me? Well I’ve told my stories about the race car. See, thats how naive I was. Oh well. In the end, I just figured I took a really really hard hit, it’s over now and I still miss love in my life, maybe even more so now I may have found another runner quitter who may blame it on me, should things become salty. As you can see, I too, to some degree have issues that I am dealing with inherited from my former love, so many more fears, that I have to overcome.

    Like the guy said?? Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves, That’s BS. Give them enough rope and they will rob and beat you mercilessly of everything and leave you to die. Maybe even wishing you dead, because in their mind you are evil. She never even knew me, nor did she care too. I was the enemy and she was going to win, and she did. What did she win? The satisfaction she fought back and won. It was her game and her fight.

    In golf we have a saying when a person wants to do something outside the rules like hit another ball or something. We say, “It’s your game.”

    Looking back, I never stood a chance with her. Though I’m sure she would tell you and everyone, she gave me so many.

    Readers, I know you can sense some of my salt above and I’m sorry for that. Once in awhile, there’s still a bit of ptsd.

    Thanks all and here’s wishing you mucho love!!!

  274.  #274Jim on May 2, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    258: Mercedes,

    Fair enough, my little whore-moans too now and then, I’m just human and I agree with you so so much!!

    BUT thanks for that little, “Hey what are you thinking dude,” slap. 🙂

    Really, thank you so much,

  275.  #275Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    Lemonice, you are priceless!! Thank you so much and your voice is valuable to the whole wide world, you know? Sing your song, it’s part of your Purpose on the Planet…..

    plus I like listening to it!


  276.  #276T-Girl on May 2, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    Ugh, I have tons of negative thoughts going through my head right now regarding the men I have dated or am dating. I need to get out of my head…I can’t even process these thoughts or put them into words. It is just a big feeling of disappointment and they are bringing me down.

    I got the book “Calling in The One” at the library and am going to work on myself. That is the one thing I can control.

  277.  #277T-Girl on May 2, 2011 at 9:18 pm

    Mel, I am so sorry to hear what you are going through. You have gotten lots of advice here. All I can say is I’ve been there with my ex-husband. Trust your instincts. Take care of yourself.

  278.  #278Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    269 Jacqueline, aw thanks, I like being called a storybook princess! 🙂 I think you are right about me and intimacy…maybe I just need to accept that’s the way I am and stop comparing myself to a completely different girl (his gf) who thrives on polyamory, and thinking I should be happy with it too. My daughter is doing pretty well – graduating in about 10 days, health up and down w the weather (hard to breathe when it’s v humid). Thanks for asking. And yes, “projection” is a biggie! I think we are b

  279.  #279Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 9:30 pm

    both doing great working through stuff. 🙂 <3 Princess Lucy

  280.  #280Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 9:31 pm


    I hope your heart can heal and you will find love. I don’t have any magic answers or easy fixes…and if I were offered a bit of solace with someone, I’d take it. But we all have our own path.

    I just wrote a dear friend that I’m sorry the lesson learned that love doesn’t make it all work out is the hardest lesson we ever learn, and it is.

    Hang in there and here…



  281.  #281Daria on May 2, 2011 at 9:33 pm

    I feel angry. Triggered.

    Some of comments About the blog and the interactions here feel bad to me. I feel judged and attacked and I feel sad 🙁

    IWant to move into compassion. I might have felt the same way before I got into the practice of the walk away tool… Skipping posts.

    Or not judging.

    It Does feel bad to read others being put down.

    And I feel angry reading that .


    I feel kinda helpless.

    I feel afraid.

    I have my walk away post skipping tool.

    I love me.

  282.  #282Jim on May 2, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    265: Elizabeth,

    Well… since you put it that way.

    Does that mean you, Turtle Girl and I could play house, stick around for awhile and find love in all that? LOL!!

    As for GF, she’s the best! I just need the right time to be able to sit down and have a real heart to heart with her.

    Last July, I wrote her an email professing my love for her. Hold on a minute, I did that for lots of reasons. Mainly so she could talk herself into or out of it with herself. Give her time to think on it. Give her a way out if she wants it. In my thinking, you want out? By all means-go!!

    Thing is, this was what I got for an answer.

    This was her response… person to person. I knew that (person to person) was coming before hand, it let her have the floor comfortably as possible.
    We sat across from one another and this is what she said,
    “I’m damaged goods.”
    “I’ve had cancer, it could come back and I don’t want to do that to anyone.”
    “I’m scared.”
    ‘I can be mean.”
    “I don’t want to do anything.” (Whatever that means?)
    She was crying as she said all that, in that sequence.

    So I walked around behind her, hugged and kissed her, telling her everything is ok.

    So there it is… you all are women. Was that your way of telling me you aren’t interested in me? That was how I took it.

    So I still cared for her and figured, let time, good experiences and so forth help us both here. That’s just exactly what I’ve done, that was 10 months ago.

    Now I find myself getting impatient. I want to tell her again but this time, if she says no, I think I’ll have to walk out of her life. Because frankly when it comes right down to it. We can make it all good or I can move on. Thats why I see one woman at a time. It’s already hard enough out here.


  283.  #283Jacqueline on May 2, 2011 at 9:36 pm

    Graduating???!!!!! Whooowheeeee….YOU DID GOOD, Ms. Lucy!!! That is soooo wonderful.

    And yep, we’ve been in for quite a ride this past year – and we’re still standing! Cheer!

    Hugs and sweet dreams to everyone,


  284.  #284Daria on May 2, 2011 at 9:41 pm

    Feeling sad. Feeling judged.

    What if it was ok to feel that way?

    Feels like smiling.. It IS!!!

    And it is ok to feel triggered and angry.

    And it helps expand the safety for others.

    And even attacking is great because it’s a chance to practice tools like feeling messages and then walk away.

    And rewire myself to move AWAY from feeling bad.

    And it feels good to trust that who wants to write on here will and will find healing like I do. That I Do believe. I feel compassion for those who worry about newcomers not seeing the healing here.

    I feel good about healing. I feel good about me!

    I feel good about the steps I take to care for me. Like feeding myself, and taking myself to read the Buddha brain at barnes and noble.

    Loving me is getting easier and more comfortable and smoother.

  285.  #285Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 9:50 pm

    Hugs and sweet dreams to you too Jacqueline! <3

  286.  #286Lucy on May 2, 2011 at 9:56 pm

    284 Daria. I like it. Hugs for your uncomfy feelings. (((Daria))) <3

  287.  #287gina on May 2, 2011 at 10:36 pm

    AAARGH! Never heard from D yesterday about finishing the conversation I started about how I am not up for this imaginary relationship stuff. Tonight I get a text that says “Hi G!!” and I say “hey” and he says NOTHING for a long while, so I say “feeling annoyed about a casual hello after the unfinished convo yesterday” and NOTHING. AAAARGH…so annoyed and wanting to judge him and blame him and call him names and come to conclusions about what kind of a person he is.

  288.  #288gina on May 2, 2011 at 10:39 pm

    awww Jim, I’m so sorry!! But i’m confused, so are ya’ll seeing eachother, or no?

  289.  #289gina on May 2, 2011 at 10:41 pm

    Jim, if I feel bad about myself and icky and SICK and scared and vulnerable, I sometimes push love away. When a guy gives me space, sometimes I’m able to realize how much I really appreciated him and want him back. Can you give her space without shutting the door?

  290.  #290Daria on May 2, 2011 at 10:41 pm

    so today i felt lonely very lonely… and i minorly leaned forward… and still wound up taking care of myself…

    and now im wondering whether its not a detox reaction from me not eating sugar or sugarycarbs the past few days…

    and i did wind up eating a processed protein bar and am feeling some effects

    loving me

    and my body

  291.  #291Daria on May 2, 2011 at 10:42 pm

    thanks lucy! 🙂

  292.  #292Daria on May 2, 2011 at 10:44 pm

    ok feeling a lil bit guilty for not appreciating… going straight to what feels bad

    for example i could say… oh it feels great to see loneplum encouraging meemee

    AND this triggers me and feels bad

    or… oh it feels like smiling to see sirens caring about other non posting sirens AND this triggers me etc


    i feel judgemental of myself… and my dad… like “this is how i grew up, straight to the criticism, no praise”

    i would like to change this, change this belief, change this way of being

    thank you angels

    i intend this

  293.  #293Daria on May 2, 2011 at 10:51 pm

    Gina – this reminds me of me!

    i practiced.. when i got to a point of being able to soothe my anxiety enough to practice… NOT leaning forward and saying…

    “feels annoying to not hear from you after etc”

    I practiced just BEING with those annoying feelings…

    and really really really leaning back and letting him only come to me

    and if he didn’t and it’s just “hi”


    then when i got to be able to do this consistently, i get this remarkable feeling of peace and feminine softness and power

  294.  #294gina on May 2, 2011 at 10:58 pm

    but doesn’t he deserve to be judged. I just want to beat him up. How DARE he come to me with a puny little “hi.” oooh i want to swipe at him and hiss like a cat .

  295.  #295gina on May 2, 2011 at 10:59 pm

    okay, I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think I should respond to nonsense that pisses me off like “hi G.” That pissed me off from the moment I got it cause I know this pattern.

  296.  #296gina on May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm

    I am PISSED!!! how dare he come into my day with that lousy useless little reminder of his existence.

  297.  #297Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:05 pm

    Gina – yes, that was another thing i practiced

    when i get a “hey”
    or “hi”

    and i feel pissed off and triggered by it I don’t respond

    I respond to those sometimes when i’m feeling lovely about my day and I feel open to it

  298.  #298gina on May 2, 2011 at 11:06 pm

    why doesn’t he just GET OUT if he isnt’ going to do this right. He EFFS everything up FREQUENTLY. He should go to AA and say “Hi. My name is D and I’m an alchoholic.” THAT’S a greeting that would maybe get him somewhere. But this “hi g!!” crap (probably drunk) just makes me want to give him a reason to drink.

  299.  #299Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:07 pm

    ohhh you will feel so STRONG and good about yourself when you are able to not engage in this pattern

    you will be like, WHAT?? i can’t believe i used to cut my vein open and bleed energy toward this

    when instead i can now calmly turn the page

    and i KNOW more and better is coming

  300.  #300Jim on May 2, 2011 at 11:11 pm

    287: Turquoise3

    Now I may appear defensive, understood, you can’t see my face and all.

    I’m not blaming her anymore, I know it can appear that way and I should state that. Just describing things as accurately as possible for illustrations sake.

    My primary point was, I was the real victim and I know it. But I take no right of way for that, no victimhood meetings, It was a hard hit.

    She played the victim to herself and others in such a way, as to make it appear like what is really happening around the world to lots of women. All the while, she was the perpetrator and punitive at that. She cried wolf.

    Now when I think of her, most of the time anyway, actually almost all of the time. I’m ok with it all, in the end… IT JUST HAPPENED AND IT HAPPENED TO ME. That’s all.

    Though I must admit, when I was on Rori’s blog months ago, I was heading into the end of reeling from it all. After all, it was hard.

    As for your other comments about your ex, YAH!! Very good, you two have come to terms and I know your 2 daughters feel the love from both of you. Yes, Yes and so Yes!! I have a 30 year old daughter and she has always been loved from mom and dad. Though, I’m sure she sensed tensions when we divorced 25 years ago.

    “Regarding your friend, who said she was damaged… I’ve said that to guys before too, when I didn’t want to hurt them. BUT, there have been a few guys whom I really liked, if they had wanted a serious relationship with me, I’d definitely have tried.”

    My question to you is how did you know they didn’t want “a serious relationship…?” and… Better to take a chance and let them feel hurt, be honest.


    Yes, I’ve thought that too… not preferring a relationship with me, that is.
    This time, if that is the case, I will make her say it and that will be that. After all, it does take 2 to even have a relationship, Over the course of the last almost a year, I have made it clear in my actions and she has sat back and received. If I have to walk, so do my affections.
    Because I too reserve certain behaviors for that special one and she has been treated with far more respect, kindness, caring, concern than “just friends” would get.
    She has been complicit with the ball always in her court, I wanted it that way, for her comfort and security in my mind.

    I think everybody knows what I’m saying here… Shit or get off the pot. Because I know there is a better life to be had with a woman. I suppose woman would say something like, “We weren’t moving forward.” ok, I get it.

    Like I said before, I don’t even want to entertain that option, but if you are right? I will cross that bridge if I have to and I will walk, so sad.

    BTW, I liked the way you put all that into perspective about you and your ex.


    Now I must sleep, supposed to go to bed an hour ago!! 🙂

  301.  #301gina on May 2, 2011 at 11:11 pm

    okay. I am not responding to any more BS from him. NO MORE BS!!!! I DON’T WANT IT.
    Hear ye, hear ye! I will no longer respond to any sort of lame BS! and by ye, I guess I really mean “me” since I’m the one tolerating this crap. How did I let this become a pattern??? why am I HERE???

  302.  #302gina on May 2, 2011 at 11:13 pm

    thank you, Daria! Hope you’re feeling better yourself…

  303.  #303gina on May 2, 2011 at 11:15 pm

    to be honest though, I totally feel an impulse to go check my phone. I resolve to not respond to any sort of contact for the rest of the night. I am not appreciating this late night stuff, and it’s after 1am.

  304.  #304Simply Shannon on May 2, 2011 at 11:15 pm

    Daria, you are doing a detox? Which one? As luck would have it (LOA of course! 😉 ), I’m getting a detox program from my girlfriend on Wednesday. I think it’s a juice type detox. No clue. Just know I’m doing something. I’m starting to notice how bad I feel when I eat processed foods. This shall be an experiment.

    And I just tried coconut oil as a moisturizer tonight. Wasn’t that another of your tried and true methods? I’m finally catching up. <3

    Jacqueline, I'm loving your voice. Thank you for sharing and stepping through your triggers here!! I'm learning!!

  305.  #305Jim on May 2, 2011 at 11:19 pm

    289 & 290 gina,

    I was on my way to bed and read your comment. That stunned me.

    “Can you give her space without shutting the door?”

    Ya know, I thought I had it all figured out. SHIT, now I have to think more and thank you. You struck a cord and that is exactly what I’d planned to do when I walked, shut the door.

    I can give her space, God knows I need mine too at times.

    Thanks a bunch, back tomorrow, call me Mr. Go To Sleep Right Now? 🙂

    I just hate it when I’ve think I’ve got it all figured out and then… then… then…. gina.

    Like a pop up!!!! 🙂


  306.  #306Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:22 pm

    Shannon – my detox is to balance my blood sugar… i’ve listened to an awesome mp3 from Rose Cole – I can send it if you’d like… about balancing blood sugar and brain chemistry

    my “detox” just means i haven’t been eating sugar or wheat

    i also take baths with apple cider vinegar and that detoxes and feels SO Good for my mood and body

  307.  #307Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:23 pm

    gina – I wouldn’t answer unless something feels good…

    not answering to feel bad stuff now is the first babystep

    i bet once you do it say… 5 times… you’ll start to feel the difference

  308.  #308Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:24 pm

    yay Jim! for new ways of relationship

  309.  #309Daria on May 2, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    thank you Gina . yes im feeling great right now at the computer

    i also called a man i feel comfortable with and he might come through and chill with me – lean forward on my part… i feel glad i do Not do this with the ones i really like or that i woudl feel majorly dissapointed with…

    and i did NOT call Getright man to hang out… because it wouldve felt bad!


    remembering feeling not so great other times i have

  310.  #310gina on May 2, 2011 at 11:29 pm

    yeah, yay Jim!!
    I was so sad when guys shut the door on me once i finally was feeling open…

  311.  #311LonePlum on May 2, 2011 at 11:29 pm

    273 Jim

    Thank you for sharing your experience. It is priceless.
    I want to hug you, I feel sorry you have been so badly treated.

    Yes I can see her and hear her.
    She seemed locked up in a rut of negativity and as you say she won, but what she won, we don’t know, she does not know either but she had to win.
    She needs drama or else it does not feel real to her.
    She probably hates herself, she could never believe a man loved her. You would have brought the moon down for her, her “feel love” button is broken. She would have said you brought it down by accident, not specially for her, or you did not bring it down in the way that means love to her, or not the right day etc…

    That’s why the advice given to women is to let go off control and allow ourselves to be surprised. His way to love might be different than what we expect but it might be as good and sometimes better. Also to give the benefit of the doubt. People who see evil intents in others’ words or actions usually are people who love drama and nothing will ever satisfy them.
    Drama is a monster that feeds itself.

    There is a bit of paranoia too, when she misunderstands your words and thinks you lie when you point out you did not say what she understands. We all tend to project but when we constantly totally misunderstand people and in a way that creates problems, it’s got to be paranoia. It is also a sign of paranoia when she imagines all is about hurting her while what you’re doing is minding your life, not getting in her way at all. Like peacefully eating out yet she resents it against herself. This is something taught here too. What the man does is what he does, and nothing else. We learn to stop thinking that all he does is meant to trigger us. Most of the time the man is not aware his decision or action or words is interpreted by the woman as a weapon against her. He is simply minding his life. He is enjoying his freedom to be. He can’t imagine anybody can feel so self centered that she will take any word/action against herself.

    There is something off about the restaurant thing. Let’s suppose you did not like her cooking. Just let’s suppose.
    Why is it a weapon in her fight against you? Many husbands do not like their wives’ cooking and it is not a problem. It does not mean a thing. They either cook for her or order meals or eat out. She can complain about it to a counsellor and a judge, it is irrelevant. I don’t get that part. But I suppose that is what you mean. She did not make sense, she was simply about finding triggers in anything, as long as she could manipulate your intentions and make drama.

    Or was she hurt that you could eat out without inviting her with you? Did you ask her to join you? Some couples don’t imagine going to a restaurant without the other.
    Is it intruding if I ask how many years you lived that hell?

    You know, I was thinking, may be if both of you had come here back then, she would have learnt to observe herself and to face her insecurities. She would have leanrt that she was being a cop and treating you like an inmate. It depends how damaged she was.

    I am aware you are in love with a friend and I don’t know what to say. She might be too damaged to let your love blossom and it might be you who is attracted to women who can beat you up, I don’t know. You might be addicted to pain.
    She might also blossom through your love. Who knows? You may find a way to make her FEEL safe. You would feel happy to make a woman happy. It would give you a nice break.


  312.  #312Lercomari on May 2, 2011 at 11:44 pm

    Hello Sirens,

    Been away for too long and just checking in. 🙂 Just wanted to say how grateful I am for this site and all o you here who have been helping me, including, SLV, Jacqueline, femininewoman, Daria, LonePlum, Luzydel…you all rock hardcore! 🙂 Just wanted to say that things are going so great with Techie. I just came from my second date with him. We rode the train around downtown L.A (I didn’t know it could be so much fun) and he pointed out different building to me. We went to bookshops, ate chocolate cake, sat on the park bench near one of L.A’s beautiful waterscapes and listened to lovesongs on his MP3 player/phone. And of course lotsa kissing! It was just perfect. 🙂 He’s so into me and I’m super into him. I have been leaning back for the most part (I’ve had some slip ups here and there) and using feeling messages when necessary. He wants to be around me all the time and I’m even seeing him this coming Friday to see a movie and go to the beach. I can’t wait.
    I’ve been processing my feelings about the Banker, and I realized nothing is going to happen between us (at least there is nothing to indicate such). He’s a good guy, so I don’t think he intentionally does this. But he is “overly friendly” to women, tends to build up their hopes by being affectionate and inviting, and then he disappoints the woman later on when he says doesn’t want a relationship.
    This is what he did to me and I told him so…that I felt so disappointed because I was expecting to be with him one day, but it turned out he didn’t feel the same way after all. I told him to stop being so overly inviting with women if he doesn’t intend to start anything with them. I was telling him this more for his own benefit rather than trying to gain closure. Again I don’t believe he leads women on purposefully. He’s a naturally empathetic, outgoing and intuitive person and that makes him naturally attractive to the opposite sex. He just has to reel himself in a bit.
    He told me he understands and apologized more than once for hurting me. I’m finding it easier to forgive him, especially with Techie in my life.
    Techie told me he does want a relationship and he’s looking forward to getting to know me more. I hope he commits to me soon so that we’re “official.” I’m so crazy about him.

  313.  #313Daria on May 3, 2011 at 12:02 am

    Lercomari – that’s awesome that you are feeling good dating this man and that you have been able to lean back and receive!

    I feel a bit worried about you wanting him to commit and make it “official” – you can have so much more than a gf situation

    have you thought about what your “happily ever after” relationship will look like? what is the relationship that you want. do you want a forever relationship? (I have yet to meet a woman who doesn’t, whether she’s initially aware or admiting of it or not). is that marriage for you?

    this man may be the one who offers you that relationship… or he may not… i would get a little clear on what my happily ever after will be…

    because after awhile of dating… what i want will come up, even if it’s not conscious… and it can pressure a relationship… because he can’t give you what you want if you don’t know what you want

  314.  #314LonePlum on May 3, 2011 at 12:03 am

    Jim 282

    ***This was her response… person to person. I knew that (person to person) was coming before hand, it let her have the floor comfortably as possible.
    We sat across from one another and this is what she said,
    “I’m damaged goods.”
    “I’ve had cancer, it could come back and I don’t want to do that to anyone.”
    “I’m scared.”
    ‘I can be mean.”
    “I don’t want to do anything.” (Whatever that means?)
    She was crying as she said all that, in that sequence.
    So I walked around behind her, hugged and kissed her, telling her everything is ok.
    So there it is… you all are women. Was that your way of telling me you aren’t interested in me? That was how I took it.***

    I do not understand this “I don’t want to do anything”

    But everything else to me means:
    “I want you to love me, I want to give it a try but I am so afraid you will abuse me or abandon me, I am afraid to hurt again. I can not take the risk myself, I need you to roar the boat and lead me in this relationship. I don’t want to do anything”

    O.M.G there it is!

    She told you she does not want to do anything, she wanted you to kiss her, to be the leader, to be the captain of this relationship. She does not want to be working for a man again. She wants you to be provider and decider.
    It is time to take her on a real date and make her feel a woman.
    When you walked towards her she probably wondered if you were going to kiss her.

    Jim are you expecting her to tell you
    ”Jim I give you permission to kiss me”
    “Jim I allow you to start a relationship with me”
    “Jim I feel things for you”
    That would put her into her male vibes again and her ex did that to her. It is damaging. She wants you to allow her to stay in her feminine.
    In her feminine she can not go towards you, she is the receiver, she waits for you to go to her and to kiss her. And to make her feel safe.
    And if she is not waiting for it, anyway, a stolen kiss can wake her heart, a kiss can bound her to you, it can change everything.

    The worst thing that can happen is that she turns her head away and, even, it could only mean she is really scared to death. But in any case you would know she is not ready, you could move on.

    In the best case she lets you kiss her and you starts feeling happy. 🙂


  315.  #315Laughing Goddess on May 3, 2011 at 12:05 am

    Daria: I would be so happy to receive the Rose Cole .mp3 on balancing blood sugar…if you don’t mind.


  316.  #316Greta Hassel on May 3, 2011 at 12:07 am

    Re 5, Mel
    What a terrific community! I love the feminine collaboration and solidarity ~
    With all this support, you DO have an opportunity to Take Two. Mel, your concerns are completely understandable, and your conscious awareness, channeled optimally can be one of your best assets in such a delicate and charged situation. So many good words already expressed, and I would add that situations like this can so easily spin out when the focus is on the third point of the ‘triangle’ (the computer, the secretiveness, etc) in contrast to what is occurring inside of you and between you both. I teach Heart Centered Communication (from Non-Violent Communication) because it is so effective even in the most volatile of situations. In your Take Two, first describe what you saw or heard without interpretation or judgement (eg. “when I walked by and saw you close your computer” – nothing added!), a feeling (“I felt anxious, uneasy, scared” – keep it with a vulnerable emotion vs. a harder one like angry, suspicious) because I NEED (honesty, trust, consideration), and a Request (I’d like to talk about both our needs being met in this relationship to insulate us from emotional or physical affairs. Can we sit down together, and check in on the ‘pulse’ of us?! That would mean a lot to me cuz I got scared.”)

    Is there enough safety in your relationship to risk being honest about the good, bad and the ugly? Oftentimes situations such as this can create on opportunity for new layers of intimacy to be birthed between you. Be clear in your authentic truth what your boundaries are. Trust yourself and what you need.

  317.  #317Lucy on May 3, 2011 at 12:19 am

    315 Loneplum/Jim. That’s what I thought about it too.

  318.  #318Lercomari on May 3, 2011 at 12:27 am

    @Daria 314

    It feels so good to hear from you again. 🙂 Thanks for you input. I understand what you mean when you say it’s important to know what you want out of a relationship.
    Well honestly I would be happy with a gf situation for the time being. I am looking for a man to be in a long term relationship with that leads to marriage, but I don’t like to think about marriage much these days. I’m 25 and I was in an emotionally and mentally abusive marriage for six years. Before that I never really had a boyfriend (except when I was 12, but I’m not counting it. lol).
    When I met my stb ex husband I was going through a LOT of family drama, and getting married seemed to be a good idea at the time to get away from the chaos (never mind I only knew him from a few online chats). As the saying goes, out of the frying pan and into the fire! I was only 19 when I married and didn’t have much experience in life. In my mind, I mentally divorced my husband years ago because of all he put me through and the distance that was there from the start.
    I don’t take for granted the “courting” interactions between me and Techie. I’ve never in my life dated. I never had such a connection with someone and had the chance to simply spend time with him and get to know him. It’s so amazing, slowly building our friendship, knowledge of, and admiration for each other. I’d love to be a girlfriend at this point, not to say that I want to be a girlfriend forever. I would like to get married again, maybe two or three years down the road. But for now I really would just like to be a serious girlfriend.
    I asked Techie if he ever plans on getting married. He said it’s not a necessity for him but if he should meet the right girl and the time is right then he would. So I consider that enough to go on for now.

  319.  #319Laughing Goddess on May 3, 2011 at 12:28 am

    Wow Mel! I feel so happy reading the suggestions and feedback people have given you.

    I see you setting your intention to make your personal care your priority. This way you will be set no matter what happens. I see you learning and evolving your relationship skills for yourself so that you know you did your best whether you choose to stay with hubby or not. I see you falling in love with yourself…which will have the inevitable effect of drawing an amazing man in.

    I truly believe Rori’s tools can work miracles. I’ve seen it happen in my own life.

    I also highly recommend Abraham Hicks. They have some great talks on you tube about relationships.

    ((( hugs )))

  320.  #320Daria on May 3, 2011 at 12:45 am

    Lercomari – Im sorry to hear about your abuse… and wonderful to hear that you feel so good now

    i feel triggered ie worried a bit… though less worried hearing from you now

    i learned from Rori not to settle ‘for now’ and actually give myself the chance to envision what i really want

    before that i was afraid to really want a forever relationship like marriage – not sure why, but i was sure it wouldn’t happen for me or someone like me… it felt too scary to think about

    at first i could only get a glimmer of what i would want

    Rori says to play out a day in our ideal relationship (gently redirecting from thoughts of not so ideal past relationships that WILL come up, and we practice gently turning mind back to the positive) and selecting 3 images and feelings that would be our ideal relationship, like “seeing him smiling in his boxer shorts”, etc…

    the thing about gf is it’s not promising a forever… and that can be a huge heartbreak if we think it does (and we do, because when we feel in love our forever feelings come up), and 2 years later, it doesn’t…

    that’s why Rori advises to keep our happily ever after in mind, and not settle for a for now exclusive situation.

    i would feel scared to that i would experience some big ouchies…

    my personal experience is that a strong initial connection does not mean it will be a forever after… because there are things for me to heal…

    and of course it’s different for everyone

  321.  #321Daria on May 3, 2011 at 12:49 am

    LG – mp3 (s) have been sent to you!

  322.  #322Daria on May 3, 2011 at 12:53 am

    Hi Greta, I feel great hearing your ideas on paying attention to the hearts in relationship and not the “triangle” of whatever else seems to be drawing energy at the time!

  323.  #323LonePlum on May 3, 2011 at 2:20 am

    154 Rusty

    Malarkey sounds familiar to me, but I can’t remember whom I heard say it. Not sure it was in real life, though, might be in movies.

    Are you old enough to have been on the USS BRONSTEIN (FF-1037)  ?


  324.  #324Brenda on May 3, 2011 at 2:59 am


    Re: #256 – What a beautiful letter! Sad, but beautiful!

  325.  #325Rosa on May 3, 2011 at 3:01 am

    Jim @ 282 and Loneplum,

    Interesting subject matter for me as Iam typing on hospital keyboard right now and I GET where she is coming from. I just had my second breast surgery (and I still have more to do because of technical issues yesterday ) for cancer. No its not recurrent. yes I think I am cured.

    BUT I am scared s…less to show my very scarred and nipple-less body to a man , I am scared to lean on a man and become his liability.I am scared to feel love for a man who feels pity for me, I am terrified that I have lost my sexy self. I cant flirt , I cant play with a mans mind like I could before.

    I am lost and afraid and totally alone in this experience that started in October.

    And I am one of the lucky ones. I know its cured.

    Jim if you love this woman please remember she is possibly feeling all this and more . Mortal fear.

    If i had a great guy who loved me right now i would likely push him away or try and sabotage myself (I am trying very hard not to..more on that in a moment)

    I would need him to hold me long and tight like you hold a screaming kicking toddler.

    Then i would want him to touch my wrists , my cheeks , my hair and linger in what femininity I still offer.

    I would want him to take the worry away from me any way he could, get my car tuned, do the groceries, drive me, bring me food ..and even THEN I would likely “say no I am ok” if he offered (and yes rght now that is what I am actually doing.

    PLEASE do not wait around till her fear evaporates. It wont. But you can overcome it.

    Stride in and do stuff for her , even if she seems slow to accept your offers.

    Hold her often , brush her hair and massage her beautiful hands while looking in her eyes.

    Tell her often you arent going anywhere else.

    If you cant do these things , please dont bother with less, unless you wish to remain unavailable for love for personal reasons .

    As for me, since having cancer I have met a few good men. One has sent me chocolates , one a huge basket of fruit and the third is offering to drive me home from hospital.

    One had his wife die of breast cancer and is in a bit of a do-over fantasy , lives 1000 miles away, one is a 53 year old uncommited charming dilettante of a man who I could fall for easily but is Dangerous with a capital D , and the third is a good solid ordinary serious minded man , a doctor who is not quite divorced.

    So there we have it.
    I am damaged goods too.
    The men I attract may well be the same.
    I hope I am not too scared (or scarred) if one good men truly steps up.

    Never mind what to do about sex. Nothing more than the briefest pecks in a long long time.

    Any insight Lone Plum? The voice of reason is always appreciated.

  326.  #326Rosa on May 3, 2011 at 3:07 am

    oh and for the record, G man is not among the CDs .
    Despite a brief drug and anaesthetic fuelled desire to text last night I have not contacted him and he doesnt know I am in hospital again.
    I have cried for him though.

  327.  #327RiverGirl on May 3, 2011 at 3:43 am

    Rosa @ 326

    ((Hugs)) Rosa, you have me blinking away tears after reading that. Thank you for sharing what you are going through with such honesty. I know that you will find a way to share that with a good man who will see your heart and your wisdom before he notices any scars. And he will love those scars as it is because of them that you can be there with him.

    So many women shut out love because of fear and insecurity for all sorts of reasons. It seems to be inbuilt in many of us to put up walls and crawl into our shells to protect ourselves from possible rejection. We need to find a way to be vulnerable and share our fears just like you did in your post.
    Thank you Rosa. Hope you are feeling better soon xo

  328.  #328Lilybelle on May 3, 2011 at 3:44 am


    I am sending you lots of love and support and prayers right to your hospital room. I hope you can feel it.


  329.  #329Lilybelle on May 3, 2011 at 3:47 am

    Some people are happiest, Laura, when they have something to be unhappy about.

    Let ’em have it.

    Not you,
    The Universe

  330.  #330LD on May 3, 2011 at 4:47 am


    Re #282,

    I don’t know if that was her way of saying she is not interested or not, but it sounds to me like she was honestly telling you she’s afraid to let you or anyone else close because of what she’s been through. Or maybe she was trying to find out if you’re made of the kind of “in sickness and in health” stuff. One of the reasons I decided to become exclusive with D is that I know he is made of that kind of stuff. As wonderful as the compatibility and chemistry with him feels, it’s about being able to make it through the bad times too. It’s not always gonna be rainbows and kittens. That same reason was my hesitation with MinisterCd. Although he’s a counselor and a great listener and gives good advice, I just didn’t feel like he was the kind of man who would truly be there for me no matter what.

    Keep in mind also that she may have felt abandoned by someone when she was sick last time. Abandonment issues are serious relationship sabotagers.

    Go rent the movie “Love and Other Drugs”. Ask yourself if you’re that kind of man or not. If you can honestly say you are, then I say it’s worth one more truly dramatic speech like in the end of the movie. All she needed was to really be sure if him in order to let her guard down and let him in.

    I’m not saying that’s her issue-she may truly not be interested and you may get rejected again. It’s a gamble as love always is. Are you gonna play another hand or walk away and assume she just wants to be friends?

    If you don’t think you’re that kind of man, be grateful that she didn’t let you close last time and let go of her and go find a woman with a lower level of risk emotionally and physically. It doesn’t make you a bad man, just an honest one. I personally would rather have a man honestly tell me that he doesn’t have what it takes to really be there for me than to let me believe he does and then jump ship when the water gets rough.

  331.  #331The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 4:48 am

    Wow, so many great comments here recently! Honest self-reflections, folks working hard on improving themselves and their relationships. And lots of points where I’d like to add my two cent, but it’s simply too many of them. So, Sirens and Sailors, I will pick just a few stories and add my pov, without this meaning that I value the others any less. I’m actually impressed by all of you, honestly!

    But firstly, back to my rant about triggering. Thank you for the positive feedback, and even more so for the lack of negative repsonses! You’re too nice to me, some criticism, for instance pointing out that i don’t thoroughly understand the concept, would have been totally ok. Daria’s input in #218 etc is really helpful, imho, because it shows what should be accomplished by experiencing triggers and working on the feelings. The tool shall increase awareness of negative feelings, help to get to the root causes, heal the wounds, and ultimately reduce the impact on relationships. And this should be independent from the person which triggers us.

    This is a point that should be kept in mind. Reflecting on triggers should be done in a way that doesn’t make the person which (probably unintentionally) triggered us feel attacked. Because that is a trigger, too, and if this goes back and forth it creates a circle of negative feelings. Afaicsw this happens here every once in a while, and it would be good if increased awareness helped to avoid this.

    Dealing with triggers shows us where we are vulnerable. And, just like allowing vulnerability, this knowledge can make us feel less secure. Aparently some here are concerned that acknoledging triggers may show everyone with bad intentions a sure way to hurt them emotionally. This isn’t a totally unreasonable fear, of course this can happen. And this makes me wonder if working on our triggers in public is such a good idea. Exposing our weak points to everyone on the internets is a bit risky. Ok, we’re using pseudonyms, so there’s some security, but for those who are concerned about this, using this tool in private, in a diary or so, may be a better idea. Of course, then the feedback would be missing that helps to use the tool in the right way. I guess everybody has to decide for her/himself if the pros outweigh the cons.

    Hmm, did Rori say anything about dealing with triggers on this public forum, does she recommend it or does she see problems with this, too? I’d love to see a reply from her on this! Or maybe a well versed Siren can point me to a blogstory on this? I would appreciate this.

    Ok, folks, just some additional thoughts on this issue, and I hope they are more rational than my rant yesterday, which was fueled by emotions. Again, thx for not flaming me! I could deal with that (thx, Liz, I know about flame wars :D), it happened in countless political discussions I participated in (and I “won” some of these battles, if there is a winner in this at all), but I don’t really need such online skirmishes and I don’t think they are helpful at all. Even though they can be entertaining sometimes. But I very much prefer the respectful, positive attitude that shows in the discussions here! You’re great folks, y’all.

  332.  #332LD on May 3, 2011 at 4:57 am

    Oh Rosa,

    My heart goes out to you. Hugs…

  333.  #333Rosa on May 3, 2011 at 5:06 am

    Thanks Rivergirl . Actually my mood is buoyant and I have been having lots of giggles with GF’s and sisters. I just wanted to respond to Jims post. And I wanted to practice feeling my true feelings and being honest in expressing them.

    This blog is a sensational help . Thank you everybody!

    And seriously now I need a team of sherpas just to get to the bathroom 2 metres away ..I have so many lines, drains, cords and tubing its really just hilarious how twisted up i get then doing a dance around my IV pole just to get untangled.

    My 16 year old just gave me the best advice of all
    ” Mum, FOOD will get you through it!”

  334.  #334Rosa on May 3, 2011 at 5:33 am

    Lilybelle , I can feel it , and all the warm hugs too LD . Thanks Sister Sirens.

    I am so grateful to have a virtual place to open up and speak my heart when i need to. I am truly finding it easier in “real” life now too.

    Thanks Rori, your vision of having a trigger-fest kind of blog has worked miracles for me.

  335.  #335The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 5:43 am

    Mel, some additional thoughts on your problem. Firstly, of course the point isn’t to blame your hubby, but to identify the problem. Because that is important for finding the best way to deal with it. And of course, Rusty, Jim and I can offer only limited isnights from the male pov. The fact that we’re participating here shows we’re interested in improving ourselves and our relationships, and willing to expose our vulnerabilities in order to do so. This isn’t true for all men, and your hubby, who refused counseling, is probably one of those, too. So, we can only guess what he thinks and feels, but we can’t be sure. And afaics nobody of us pretended to have THE solution, we only offer our opinions. So, pls take those with a grain of salt.

    Ok, my suspicion is that your guy has something going on in the internets, prolly at FB. What you told us about his behaviour points in that direction. If that’s true, that isn’t real cheating (physically, he’s still exclusive with you), but it’s still reason for concern. Well, believe me, I know a bit about virtual affairs, from a male pov. I’ve been “the other man”. I know how “real” such an imaginary relationship can feel, both from my own experience as well as from the feedback I received. And while much is missing in online communications (no scent, no touch, no body language), our imagination makes up for this (for folks who have a “talent” for this) and almost inevitably this fantasy world is more perfect than reality. This can be dangerous for the less perfect “real life” partnership, if the “imaginary” couple isn’t aware of the risk and applying clear boundaries to their “game”.

    Well, I’m a guy with a framework of ethical values guiding me, and I don’t want to do any harm, so I always made it clear that there are limits, and that the fun of the fantasies can’t be transformed into the real world. But I’m sure there are lots of other folks in the intertubes who just stumble into such an imaginary hankypanky without being aware they’re playing with fire. After all, there are lots of news reports about FB “cheating” playing a steadily increasing role in divorces! So, in lots of cases, the boundaries have been crossed, with dire consequences.

    How to deal with this, when your partner is playing such a game? Well, of course it depends if he/she is aware of the boundaries and able to keep both worlds apart. That rubicon is crossed when the virtual affair has real life consequences. And that may be the case with your hubby, if his missing sex drive comes from increased masturbation triggered by an online gf. You have to take this worst case into consideration and base your reepsonse on that. And I don’t know if simply using Rori’s tools to make yourself more attractive for him is good enough to compete with a woman who has all the advantages of not being limited to reality. She can have the perfect figure, go all the way sexually while at the same time not having to cope with your hubby’s real life flaws and any exhausting everyday tasks. So, it’s difficult to deal with this.

    And I don’t have a good strategy to offer. Just one idea: It may be helpful to become more “virtual”, too, to compete with the imaginary gf on her own turf. Go for your hubbies imagination, too! He prolly won’t want you to friend him on Facebook, but if he does, that would be perfect. You could come up with naughty fantasies, too, on the same network, with the additional edge that you can make them become real when he comes home. And if it’s not FB, you can use another social network like Twitter. Create an account there, not under your real name, but with an exciting pseudo (and a HOT avatar pic). Tell him you would like to text with him during his lunchbreaks. And if he refuses that, too, there’s still SMS. You can use that to make him think of you in a naughty way during his long workday. Show him that having an imaginary affair with you is better than fooling around with any other chick, because you have wild fantasies, a strong sex drive and know him so much better than anybody else!

    Ok, just as an idea. And, like many others here said, too, imho seeking direct, personal advice by a relationship coach would be a good idea. Those pros have to deal with such stuff every day and know much more about what works and what doesn’t than us mere mortals do!
    All, the best, Mel! You deserve a loving hubby who cares about you. Here’s crossing fingers that your guy will realize that you have so much more to offer than any imaginary gf and find (back) into his role as leading man soon.

  336.  #336The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 6:09 am

    #334 Rosa, im so impressed about the strength of character showing under your totally understandable fears. You rock, Siren! I feel deeply moved reading how you deal with the situation, with courage and humor. Since most men love girls with humor (and also your vulnerability brings up the knight in them), I’m not surprised at all that you manage to successfully CD even while being in the hospital. With these qualities, you don’t have to be afraid about the future. A great lady like you won’t be alone!

  337.  #337Jim on May 3, 2011 at 6:10 am

    To all,

    Like Lurker said, some truly great comments here.

    I have to go to work and will think about what I’ve read through out the day.

    For future reference, I will refer to B. as before and N. as now. Which by the way are the initials to their real first names!

    I think the better I can understand things, the better equipped I’ll be to handle issues that may arise. All of us for that matter.

    HI Brenda,
    I can’t make a picture of this, here’s me winking at you… “Wink!!”


  338.  #338Lilybelle on May 3, 2011 at 6:20 am

    332: Oh YES, Lurker!

    Rori has done articles on triggering, and encourages it because it does in fact, bring about healing and transformation IF it is done the way it was intended.

    I personally, skip over some posts that feel particularily icky (that feel like personal attacks)…using Daria’s tool works well for me.

    I have also seen Sirens work through things and come to a greater understanding of one another and that has been fabulous to witness. Whether I like it or not, it has been healing for me to witness and see resolution.

    We are all different people, thank goodness. A difference of opinions is wonderful as long as they are handled respectfully. There is so much to learn from these interactions.

    Your mileage may vary.. (missing you SLV)


  339.  #339LonePlum on May 3, 2011 at 6:20 am

    327: Rosa says:

    ***oh and for the record, G man is not among the CDs .
    Despite a brief drug and anaesthetic fuelled desire to text last night I have not contacted him and he doesnt know I am in hospital again.
    I have cried for him though.***

    Awww Rosa, crying here with you.
    I feel admirative of your memory. You still remember his phone number! Or did you keep his number in your cell?
    If only they could cut that longing off our heart during the surgery…
    I feel proud, you keep on your bridge, that’s where your love will find you, don’t step out.


  340.  #340Dorothea on May 3, 2011 at 6:37 am

    I feel really vulnerable this morning
    I don’t feel walled up but instead open, and just acknowledging that i am also vulnerable in addition to open.

    it feels beautiful. this vulnerability makes me beautiful. i do not need to be afraid. just embrace it. my heart is so wide open. love is spilling out of it, all over me and then outward to the whole world.

  341.  #341Mel on May 3, 2011 at 7:11 am

    Still feeling kind of down today. Didn’t get much sleep.



    Thanks for your support everyone! It helps me stay strong.

    Lurker- I am friends with him on FB, so i can see his friend list, wall etc. No strange friends, so if he is doing something, it is with someone he actually knows- which is worse IMO. Since his wall is clean, it is likely a chatting scenario on FB (if ithere IS in fact something going on).

    The only other thing I can think of is that all 3 boys in the family (him and 2 bros) all have a tendancy to be secretive and controlling of their privacy. My husband wasn’t always this pronounced, but he’a always been this way at least a little bit (even when we were doing well as a couple). His one brother in fact even has an “office” in the basemant that no one but him is allowed into (no wife/kids).

    I suspect they all developed this tendancy because of a controlling mother. Perhaps when my husband gets stressed, or feels out of control in certain aspects of his life, he resorts to this protective instinct he likely developed as a child.

    Maybe all this secrecy is nothing bed… just him taking some “control” away from me.

    So if this is the case, leaning back and giving space should theoretically improve the situation, no?

    I guess this could be my experiment. If no improvement in a couple months, then I know it is likely another scenario. What do you think?

  342.  #342Mel on May 3, 2011 at 7:13 am

    ….Maybe all this secrecy is nothing BAD (oops, typo!)

  343.  #343LonePlum on May 3, 2011 at 7:15 am

    Rosa 326

    Nothing to add, this is it, exactly

    I just want to underline to Jim that he should take the lead and organize things himself.
    If he offers, she might say “no thanks”, for fear to become a problem and she might think it is wrong to accept a man’s help.
    He would have to impose his help with a big smile. And become part of her everyday life, doing chores for her. Making sure she feels comfortable in her life.
    And yes, rubbing hands, caressing cheeks, physical touch, telling her how beautiful she is, sexy, as much as possible until she can believe it is really happening, he is not going anywhere.

    She needs to feel he will not leave when she vomits.

    I am not sure how things went since the day he emailed his love, but what I understood is:
    he sent her words of love
    they met
    She can’t take him or leave him just on words of love
    She does not say no, but she expects his love to start acting in her life.
    She thinks the ball is in his court. He offered his love, she is waiting to feel it through actions into her life. She is observing what actions he is capable of. If he can’t integrate her life; she better not bother.

    He thinks the ball is in her court
    He offered his love with words, he thinks words are enough to accept or deny. He waits for her to accept or deny.

    Nobody is roaring the boat.

    She waits for him to make her feel protected and cherished with cancer and to make her feel he is willingly stepping into her life, without her pushing him in.
    I wonder, Rosa, does he need to tell her upfront, he understands what cancer means, even if not all for sure, and he wants to stay by her side if she falls ill again?


  344.  #344Mel on May 3, 2011 at 7:30 am

    All three brothers also have a tendancy to be contrary. Like if they are asked to do something they don’t want to do, or feel they shouldn’t have to do, they either do the opposite or just stonewall and do absolutely nothing.

    I am finding this occurring regularily. I seriously do not nag because of this trait of his. I will ask for his help with something once, maybe twice (nicely) but if he doesn’t do it, I won’t ask again. I still have a fold-out bed in the corner of my office that’s been there since Christmas because he still hasn’t gotten around to it. I haven’t nagged him though. I’m just letting it be. I would do it myself, except I’m not strong enough.

    Anyway… my point is that this contrary tendancy is happening with everything. Like I say “Do you think we could cuddle a bit tonight, I feel like I really need to be held.” And he then comes to bed at 3:00 in the morning.

  345.  #345The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 7:36 am

    #44 Ella, you did the right thing! You showed PubGuy he’ll have to work for that, and stupid tricks like lying to you about a party at this place won’t do. He already got a taste of you, and he wants more the same now, plus going to the next base. That should be motivation enough for him to go the way you showed up for him. It also should result in him having more respect for you than for the girls at the bar, because he now knows you’re no prude spoilsport, either, but at the same time not so easy to get. If he’s the kind of guy who wants a monogamous relationship, meeting a girl who is isn’t game for everybody should be interesting for him. I’m quite sure he’ll decide it’s worth the effort to play by your rules.

    And interesting news about your roommate, Ella! But, keep in mind, it won’t be easy to do CDing with a guy who is in the same apartment. More difficult to say no (he can see when you’re just idling around), and you can’t easily keep more distance if it doesn’t work out. Be careful.

  346.  #346The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 7:43 am

    #345 “if they are asked to do something they don’t want to do, or feel they shouldn’t have to do, they either do the opposite or just stonewall and do absolutely nothing.”
    Really nice guys! Playing stupid power games. Their way or the highway. Great. Why did you marry one of them, Mel? Sry.

    Come on, pls tell us something positive about your hubby now before we’re totally convinced he’s a jerk!
    You’re together since, what, 8 or 9 years? You sure had good times before you married. What was different, then, and how was he different?

  347.  #347The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 7:46 am

    #344 Great analysis, LonePlum! And not the only one, you posted food for thought in this thread. Good stuff!

  348.  #348The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 7:51 am

    #342 Yeah, too much pressure, or control, or leaning forward aren’t good. In this regard, starting to play naughty FB games with him may backfire. But, damn, you already tried the laid back approach, with no real improvements so far, right? Will more of the same, maybe a bit more expertly applied, do the trick? I have no clue. And no clue about what else you could try, either.

    Hmm, his bros are the same, you said. Are you in contact with their women? Any good advice to be found there, maybe?

  349.  #349Mel on May 3, 2011 at 7:53 am

    It will be 10 years this month.

    These tendancies were only “slight” in years past. They weren’t even bothersome, really. It was more of a quirk.

    But this year these things have become amplified. Like I said, perhaps in response to stress or something.

    I really don’t mean to imply that he’s a horriible person! I love him a lot and married him because he’s generally a very giving, caring and affectionate person. That’s perhaps why I’m holding on and not giving up. I know that somewhere down there is the amazing person I married! I don’t want to defend his crappy behavior either though. Yuck!

    I just mentioned the tendancies as a possible explanation for the extreme need for privacy lately.

  350.  #350Mel on May 3, 2011 at 7:55 am

    “tendencies”… my spelling is terrible today…!

  351.  #351Simply Shannon on May 3, 2011 at 7:57 am

    Daria, yes please send it to me! Thank you love! 🙂

  352.  #352Mel on May 3, 2011 at 7:59 am

    Lurker: “But, damn, you already tried the laid back approach, with no real improvements so far, right?”

    There has been SOME improvement using Rori’s methods. I’m still learning though and have made mistakes, I’m sure! 🙂

  353.  #353The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 8:03 am

    #350 Yeah, it could be a reaction to the stress at the job, but then his remark that ‘it’s better not to talk about this’ doesn’t make much sense…

    I understand he’s always been the kind of guy who’s not into talking about emotions? And that he would see it as a sign of weakness if he told you about feeling stressed?

    Would he talk with his brothers, or a buddy, about stuff he won’t tell you? Any feedback coming from them?

  354.  #354Tmizz on May 3, 2011 at 8:12 am

    Jacqueline – Thank you!

    What you wrote was so beautiful…:)

  355.  #355Mel on May 3, 2011 at 8:13 am

    When we were dating, he was more open about his “feelings.” But I think in general, he’s never really liked to talk about emotions, especially negative ones.

    Someone said yesterday that the feeling of “shame” turns quickly into anger. I think he is especially sensitive to the feelings of failure and shame. He is hypersensitive to any sort of criticism. So far this has been the most helpful of Rori’s tools, because now when I want to express something that he could perceive as a criticism, I try to use feeling messages and make it not about him. This seems to work well (when I can manage to do it correctly! :))

  356.  #356cati on May 3, 2011 at 8:20 am

    I have to talk… so, here goes.

    I’ve started CDing… kinda. Went out on 4 days with K… and then went out with R on Saturday night. He left Sunday morning to go out on business. I’ve only heard from him once (and that was on a layover flight) but not one word yesterday. I did something that I probably shouldn’t have done. I sent him a text to see if he landed safely… No word.
    Last night, I felt hurt because R had said he was going to keep in touch with me while away. K wanted to come over last night and I let him… One thing led to another and we had sex for the first time. I had had that as a boundary…. No sex unless marriage was on the table… He was begging and I let him have his way. Don’t get me wrong, I wanted him and he wanted me but my conscience is bothering me about letting that boundary go down and wondering if I did the right thing and if he’ll expect it to stay that way from now on.
    K told me that he wanted to love me completely and then, as he was leaving the house, he made the comment that “if I move in with you, there’s going to be some changes”. That set off a warning for me. I have more than just me (or him) to think about. I have two small children (ages 7 and 2) that I have to focus on as well.
    I know I should probably just feel my way through this instead of thinking so much… Suggestions? Thoughts?

  357.  #357Tmizz on May 3, 2011 at 8:26 am

    Turtle Girl –

    I am with you on the sex. THAT was the point of my post! And yeah, feeling a little deprived in that area also…:p


  358.  #358The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 8:26 am

    #356 Well, if you see some positive results, then perfecting your handling of Rori’s tools sure is a good idea for now. And don’t forget CDing, even if you don’t like it. Remember, for you it isn’t about really dating someone else, it’s about getting feedback on your attractiveness. For a lawyer like your hubby, having an attractive wife by his side should be important at social settings. And he should notice it when you get admiring looks. So, invest some efforts into CDing, it will improve your sex appeal. And that should make your hubby proud.

  359.  #359LonePlum on May 3, 2011 at 8:34 am

    Mercedes 92

    ***For me, it showed the pain of letting go of some limiting beliefs and moving forward without feeling bad about it. I liked it. ***

    Yes that was it. And thank you.
    I know Meemee is a good reader, hence I write for her with no fear of her misreading my posts.


  360.  #360The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 8:36 am

    #357 No suggestions yet, only questions, sry, Cati. You went out with K on four consecutive days? How long do you know him, all in all? And how long do you know R? Don’t you think that maybe the “no sex before marriage” boundary was a bit unrealistic from the very start? Do you really believe you should feel guilty for violating it? And what is your phone number? Oops, sry, that last one is a joke!

  361.  #361Laughing Goddess on May 3, 2011 at 8:39 am

    Hi Mel,

    I might be a lot like your husband.

    I had a somewhat controlling mother. (Not to put her down. She was doing what she thought was best.) and I feel very resistant to being guided or told what to do at times.

    I also deeply value my privacy and mental space.

    I sometimes close my computer windows or have things that I keep private from my LI and I am definitely not cheating.

    Sometimes I will close windows if I am reading an article that I feel shy about him seeing.

    For instance, I have a guilty pleasure of watching The Bachelor online and reading articles about it. I love observing the relationship dynamics.

    But sometimes I feel embarrassed for him to see that. I dunno why. He probably wouldn’t care. But I feel guilty about it because I think I should be doing something more productive.

    Same with the blog. Sometimes I feel embarrassed by how much time I spend on here. I have before quickly closed the window when he has come in so he doesn’t know that I was on the blog again.

    I’ve also done in when I was looking for a birthday present for him. I was chatting with this guy who makes custom jewelry on facebook trying to come up with ideas for his birthday present. Of course I didn’t want him to see this because I wanted it to be a surprise.

    Another example, I was researching prostate massage the other day after Turquoise, I think, mentioned her BJ technique. I closed my windows just because I didn’t want him to see that I had been obsessing about that all day.

    I wanted to surprise him later. 😉

    Same with some articles I’ve read about depression or personal growth. That it just private for me.

    So all I’m trying to say is I get how a person could sometimes want some privacy from their mate. It would be fine if my LI saw any of these things. Really it’s just my own personal feelings of shame, or embarrassment, or guilt, or just needing to mull something over before I discuss it with him.

    And when I am feeling stressed, I tend to get very quiet and introspective. It’s just the way I operate. Nothing to do with having something to hide. I just feel the need to get clear within myself before I am even able to articulate what is going on.

    Just wanting to share a different perspective because I, in some ways, feel a similarity to how you have described your husband and I am definitely not having an online affair with anybody.

  362.  #362Tmizz on May 3, 2011 at 8:39 am

    Jim: if you want it, here is my two cents on your situation in #282

    ***We sat across from one another and this is what she said,
    “I’m damaged goods.”
    “I’ve had cancer, it could come back and I don’t want to do that to anyone.”
    “I’m scared.”
    ‘I can be mean.”
    “I don’t want to do anything.” (Whatever that means?)
    She was crying as she said all that, in that sequence.***

    LonePlum’s response was good, too.

    But what I can tell you is that, if that were me saying those things to a potential (or actual) partner, I would NOT be telling you because I want to “get out of it” or because I want you to leave me. JUST THE OPPOSITE!!

    You have already professed your love for her. My guess is that she is afraid that if you learn about these things, then you will stop loving her because she is not “perfect.” What she is looking for is ACCEPTANCE. This is probably the same thing you are looking for. She wants you to tell her that you love her EVEN with these aspects that she considers negative.

    I am guessing that, if you love her, you don’t care that she’s had cancer. You don’t care if she can be mean. She isn’t “damaged” to you. That is all in her head. But it’s right there: she is afraid. She is afraid, in fact, that you will leave her because of all of these things that she has told you. And what she needs to hear (if it’s true), is that you don’t care about any of those things. They don’t matter to you. SHE matters to you, and you love her no matter what.

    Imagine the gratitude she will have to you for that. She considers herself “unlovable.” You have an opportunity to tell her that is NOT true, no matter what she thinks. You have an opportunity to love and accept her, OR to confirm her worst fears, which you know yourself to be baseless. But it doesn’t matter. They are her fears. But you don’t have to respond to the fears.

    You can even use some of our “tools” and check in with yourself, ground yourself. And respond to her based on what you really FEEL inside yourself, instead of worrying about what you *think* she wants from you, which is also based on your own fear that she doesn’t want to be with you either.

    See? We are all damaged goods, and we all think we cannot be loved. And we ALL want someone to tell us otherwise. But she’s put the ball in your court, so it’s up to you. And I think you are on the right track by being affectionate to her already. You can be an AWESOME man in her life, and I know you will be, if you want to be.

    Go, Jim, Go!

  363.  #363LonePlum on May 3, 2011 at 8:43 am

    103 Mercedes + FemininePower 96

    Yes that is what I see in Meemee’s posts.
    They are beautiful. She is beautiful, I would be proud to be her mother. She is well educated and smart and hard worker. Well I would worry a lot for her health because of the cigarettes 😉

    As much under his influence as she might have been, she stood up to get her money.
    It is very difficult to free oneself from imaginary links.

    She doubted herself. She feared it was not right to ask for her money.
    She felt guilt like if she was selfish (her words)
    Like if she was actually stealing his money and insisting to get it. Asking for it. The opposite of a siren who does not insist, repeat, pursue, in her feminine vibe, who does not tell the man what to do with his money etc…
    Her education told her the same thing, it is not elegant to ask for money.
    She is not an “asker”, she is independent, and she has leanrt to lean back and mind her bridge, expecting nothing specific from strangers. Each minds his/her bridge and all is well.
    The man brings his support if he wants, it comes from his own will, but he is not asked money. Telling a man what he must do with his money is leaning forward, it is masculine, and telling him to give it to oneself, lowers the degree of difficulty of a woman.
    Hence, she felt weird to be contacting X for money

    On the other hand she felt that letting him off the hook was also being a doormat and unfair to her.

    She struggled to see the light and she did see it
    Money is not dirty, it is just money
    She has nothing to feel guilty about, she has never leant forward for money, she has never used masculine energy to control a lover’s money. She is clean, she is a feminine woman who is minding her own bridge.
    She put her boy’s hat on, to close a business. She was not a feminine controlling her lover, asking to be given his money, she was a woman in her masculine closing a deal. With much elegance, no drama, as little words as can do. The deal was to get her own property back.
    I love it that she sees it so clearly.
    I feel worried that icky and aggressive distortions of her story scared her away. I want her to feel proud and safe to keep on her bridge. I want her to know she did well, that’s the way to go.
    I hope she is reading this 😉 xxx

  364.  #364cati on May 3, 2011 at 8:46 am

    LOL @ lurked…. I’ve known K for about 2 months and yes, that foundry may be a bit unrealistic… he’s been very patient in helping me get back to really living after the passing if my husband. I just met R.

  365.  #365Mel on May 3, 2011 at 8:55 am

    Thanks LG!

    I appreciate your honesty and perspective. Are there times when you feel controlled by LI? What are some of your triggers for becoming more private and or introspective? (If you don’t mind my asking…

  366.  #366LonePlum on May 3, 2011 at 8:59 am

    107: Femininepower says:

    ***RE 103 Well said Mercedes, well said. I particularly loved “without the drama”. Yayy to Meemee, I celebrate the success.
    Monday, 2 May 2011 @ 12:52pm***

    Yes, she cried, she felt despaired, she fell ill on her bridge, she came to riff her pain on here, she learnt to deal with her feelings. So they did not run her reaction when she communicates with him and others. She kept dignified. She cried here and on her bridge to get rid of the drama when she interacts with real people.
    I believe Meemee. When she describes an interaction with no drama it means there was no drama.

    And yay to you and to all of us learning to get rid of drama from our lives too 😉

  367.  #367The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 9:06 am

    #365 Aparently you already noticed it yourself – having sex after two months of dating really doesn’t make you a slut (sry for saying it this openly)! Nothing to be ashamed of, imho. And that K came out with far reaching plans may indicate that he actually was waiting for you having sex with him. Most guys nowadays wouldn’t think of marrying a woman if they don’t know the chemistry works in the bedroom, too. His remark about “changes” is a bit disturbing, but it may be an unfortunate phrase, or be about trivialities. That’s a case where you can put a feeling message to good use, to make him explain what he meant with that. And if you think he pushing too much now a playful remark like ‘slow down, tiger’ may be the right response.

    As for R, well, you just met him, and already expect him to stay in touch with you every day, and to report back on stuff like if his plane landed without accident? That’s not what most of us guys have in mind when we say we’re “going to keep in touch”. Your reaction sounds more like the behaviour of a loving but concerned wife to me.
    Well, are you more into him than into K? How do you want to go on now, keep both of them at arms length until you have your true emotions worked out?

  368.  #368Tmizz on May 3, 2011 at 9:07 am

    BTW, Lurker, I loved your rant on “triggers.”

    You articulated a lot of why I often wonder why you guys hang out here at all! I think to myself, “Why would a guy even want to listen to this??” Of course, you wouldn’t if you didn’t get something out of it. But still. I think the other sirens did a good job of explaining.

    I still appreciate your honesty 🙂

  369.  #369The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 9:08 am

    Uh, sry Cati, that comment needed some more editing. Lousy phrases. But I hope you understand what I wanted to say.

  370.  #370Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 9:11 am

    Mel I have read another coach suggesting that quirks endear us to people but they are the same things that eventual create problems in relationships. Particularly around our tendency to say things like “you always” do this or that. I have also seen an article from Rori where you mentioned to pay attention to what is “a pattern in his life”. If the secrecy is a pattern, your respect for his privacy might go a long way for him in opening up again to you. I am also wondering if he has given you any hint into his inner world around trust and how to build that. I have heard a coach say Trust, Appreciation and Acceptance are what are important in a relationship with a man. If he was a very private person before marriage I guess he could feel that his privacy is being invaded after marriage. I am wondering if moving away from the areas that he needs privacy around could inspire him to open up to sharing it with you? I am also wondering if you could choose to only participate if he invites you to participate in his world could work? Just some thoughts going through my head. I am wondering if reviewing the post on EFT and creating your own wondering thoughts to do EFT on could help?

  371.  #371Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Loneplum thanks for this ” Telling a man what he must do with his money is leaning forward, it is masculine, and telling him to give it to oneself, lowers the degree of difficulty of a woman”. It might be why I have had some internal resistance to doing it. I have also been triggered by my daughter when she was younger and asked a man for money right in front of me. Maybe it is because I have heard stories of men using money and candy to lure and violate young girls so I might be a protective mother hen. However thanks for this it is a lesson for me that I will pass on to my daughter. I am healing the resistance accepting from a man who willing gives as his expression of love because it makes him feel good. But I prefer to accept things rather than money. I have to process this also. I havde also experienced a man joking when he was giving me money he owed saying “thanks for last night”. He was joking but it really felt bad and I told him. I understand he was joking but for me it was unacceptable. So all these experiences play into my reaction to men and money as I know it is one of their masks they use as taught by CCarter.

    Thanks again my friend.

  372.  #372The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 9:22 am

    #369 Thank you, Tmizz! Well, as I see it, the abundance of feelings expressed in these threads, including all the trigger mentions, probably keeps many guys away. Simply too much femine energy here for them.

    But on the other hand, the honesty with which you Sirens tell your stories is a strong incentive for guys like Rusty, Jim and me, who are interested in learning more about relationships and women in general. We can draw parallels between what we read here and our own experiences, and the discussions lead us to see different explanations and new angles. It’s food for thought, helping us to improve ourselves. And also, I have to say, positive feedback feels good (even though Rusty probably doesn’t need that at all).

  373.  #373Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 9:25 am

    Jeannnette I hope you are reading. I am seeing some things here today that might have some similarities to your situation. I know you have been struggling and am hoping that you are finding some peace in your situation.

  374.  #374Queenbee on May 3, 2011 at 9:40 am

    #243 – Dorothea, hi. It feels good reading your post. The first step to looking amazing is acknowledging where it’s not completely right. It’s very difficult sometimes and many women don’t even go there. So fantastic for you and babysteps.

    I grew up being a gorgeous, chic beauty. Then at one point, I got fed up…. it was ‘work’ and I didn’t feel empowered by it. I needed to find my own true balance and expression in me.

    I still kept the beautification going but stopped being a fashionista. Anyway, after many years of doing my ‘ragged look’ and mum complaining and giving up at the same time, I just got it.

    But not coz she said so – major resistance – didn’t want anyone to tell me and these were MY self-esteem, time and organizational issues that I kept in place.

    It was really what I wanted to do at the time – rebelling… mmmh, I don’t feel bad. It feels good to rebel sometimes – time and place for everything 🙂

    It’s just that it needed an expiration date. That’s the hard part – coz it feels comfortable not to bother.

    But once one hits the expiration date – it feels better to look amazing!!

    So finally, it clicked for myself – that’s what I wanted and needed and now I’m back to looking amazing and more fully self-expressed than before 🙂 🙂

    For me, here’s how it works. First, I had to acknowledge that I am beautiful no matter what. One has to really get this. There are some things that just don’t work – like if one is ‘letting themselves go, or poor eating habits’ – then that’s stuff to work on.

    Other than that, you are beautiful no matter what.

    Then there’s the two levels of beautification (outer beauty I mean).

    1) Grooming
    2) Fashionista

    For me, the only way to manage both levels is to keep it flexible.

    Doing both ALL THE TIME can feel exhausting. So for example, if I’ve not done my pedi (coz I do them myself) – doesn’t matter. I can still wear sexy sheer tights and closed toe high heels and a just above the knee skirt to work and I look amazing.

    No one knows I didn’t do my pedi 🙂 and it doesn’t matter. The key for me is no judgement.

    I used to want everything perfect. And when my pedi, or eyebrows or whatever was not done, I’d dress a bit down to stay inconspicuous – what a load of nonsense/ crap/ bs! Coz people notice more and I’m not hiding anything… 🙂

    Here’s to dressing up more, feeling your best and developing new habits to get the two levels of beautification going –

    Sending you loads of happy dressing energy, beauty empowerment and self-caring 🙂

    Please come and thank yourself on Siren Island as you take babysteps – it’s Daria’s ‘tool’ and feels really good!


  375.  #375Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 9:47 am

    RE 362 LG that was beautiful that you shared with Mel. It triggered the memory of an email that frequents the internet every now and then. The theme was kindness to a loved one. It talks about a little boy who stook by his mom in the kitchen to give her some flowers. She not knowing what his agenda was became impatient with him because she was busy doing other things and he was getting in the way. She impatiently yelled at him and he walked away with tears in his eyes. It was at the end of the day through reflection she realized what had happened and reached out to the kid. Only to find out he had picked some flowers out in the yard for her. The story really pulled at my heart strings. Now that I am writing I am thinking that regardless of who your husband chooses to be or what he chooses to do it would be great if you could stand strong in who you choose to be and how you choose to respond. His drama should hopefully not reduce to you to a screaming ……..(whatever the word is). I am reminded of Meemee who raised her chin and continued her conversation in light of her X’s passing her and his friend. Choose who you want to be and stand strong, even if it means choosing to love in spite of. As far as I am concerned you can choose to love him and he can’t do a thing about that because that happens on the inside of you. Physical touch is important yes, loving in the face of whatever yes but you can still take care of yourself even if there is space.

  376.  #376The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 9:50 am

    #375 “it’s Daria’s ‘tool’”
    Oh, the “thank yourself” routine was invented by Daria? I thought it’s another one of Rori’s advices! Wow. That’s impressive. I can see the value in that.

    Just one small caveat: What Daria recently wrote, “thank you for pooping”, didn’t smell right to me! A bit too much information.
    Sry, Daria! Just kidding. I like you, Siren!

  377.  #377Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 9:55 am

    Lurker I think she did clarify that it was Rori’s tool.

  378.  #378The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 9:59 am

    #378 Oops, sry for getting that wrong. Damn, I better take a timeout before I write more nonsense…

  379.  #379Mel on May 3, 2011 at 10:03 am

    Better get some work done! Lunch break is over….

    Thanks everyone!

  380.  #380Dorothea on May 3, 2011 at 10:06 am

    I like Daria’s tool sooo much
    It triggers me greatly cuz I feel jealous cuz I think (though I don’t really know) she has much more “free” time than I have, and like all these movie stars whose jobs are to look amazing, if that was my main gig, I would look awesome too. So I feel defeated from the get-go.

    But no more excuses. When I get home tonight, I am going to primp like crazy. I am a princess afterall. Taking care of myself is #1 priority. Sometimes I think I am taking care of myself by zoning out in front of the computer or going to sleep, but if this is what I end up doing every night when I’m home, I must undo this pattern.

    My mood turned anxious and worried today, from happy and carefree, but saying to myself “i am vulnerable” is helping me keep my heart open and the anxiety managed, rather than trying to change the feeling or run away from it.

    In fact, something i would do is text my main CD and tell him ohhh i feel sad/i feel anxious/whatever.

    there’s nothing wrong with that, but i only do it with the expectation that he should make me feel better.

    even if he SHOULD step up and make it better, the fact is that this part of our interaction is toxic, and my vibe around it is royally screwed up!

    i am glad i am recognizing this pattern that I perpetuate by not taking good care of ME first.

    But yeah some acceptance and love and compassion from a sexy man would feel awesome!

    Either way, though, there’s nothing to worry about! Either I am going to take care of me tonight, or maybe he’ll surprise call me to see how I’m doing and tell me he’s bringing me a token of love. Either way, I’ll be taken care of and feeling happier:)

  381.  #381Rori on May 3, 2011 at 10:10 am

    In my experience (not to say this is always the truth) a man will get mad at you when he feels bad about something. Sometimes he’s done something to hurt you, or he’s cheating, or he’s lying, and sometimes he just feels bad and guilty because he’s done something or is about to do something so very minor that he knows, nevertheless, is stressing you and not making you happy.

    The range of this is the same as the range of his good or dicey character, his ability to communicate, how much in touch he is with his own feelings and workings.

    As always, putting a man on the defensive makes things harder – he’ll just back up and clam up more…so this is where we have to go FIRST in the opening-up department – be vigilent about Feeling Messages.

    If what you want in your marriage is radical honesty, then that’s what you want to talk about, and how that feels to you and what it looks like, and you start with YOU being radically honest about YOU.

    Most of the time, a man doesn’t know what’s going on with him and why he feels bad…but sometimes it’s something he knows he’s doing.

    Regardless – if he’s getting mad at you and feeling unusually sensitive and defensive – he’s doing something or thinking something he’s not feeling good about.

    Perhaps the men here can talk about this a bit…”attack mode” seems to be a human condition, across the board. I know I get “cranky when I feel bad about myself, something I’ve done, a way I’m feeling. I turn it on myself, and I turn it on others – and all I have between me and going down that rabbit hole is my commitment to AWARENESS.

    I don’t need to figure out what’s going on with me – but if I’m feeling vulnerable to “attack” and feeling like “attacking” (or a sense of urgency – that’s a great clue) – if I can just become aware of it and sink down into – I’ll start to feel more and discover what’s going on and go through it quickly.

    Love, Rori

  382.  #382Mel on May 3, 2011 at 10:13 am

    Thanks Rori! ♥

  383.  #383Brenda on May 3, 2011 at 10:35 am


    RE: #332 – Thanks for the wink! Here’s a hug for you!

    I like your nicknames for the women, B and N, Before and Now! Very good!

  384.  #384Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 10:36 am

    What Rori says in 382 I have experienced with a male friend, particularly around V Day. He came this morning telling me he needed help and indicated that he felt like knocking someone out. My take was that it could possibly be related to the upcoming Mother’s Day. He dislikes buying gifts plus his mother recently died. He tends to get angry around VDay because he does not know what to buy plus don’t think he should be buying because it feels like obligation to him. For the whole week he came to the office with a vibe as if he wants to fight and the simplest thing will trigger him into attack mode. I reminded him that we discussed it last year and earlier this year so maybe it is because of MDay coming up why he was feeling like that this morning. I made it playful so we had a good laugh while talking about it. I also sense that because he does not have his mother this year is why he was having these feelings this morning. He was a bit taken aback but took the feedback as food for thought because he had no clue why he was feeling like attacking. I expect to hear more later today or during the week.

  385.  #385Laughing Goddess on May 3, 2011 at 10:49 am


    “I appreciate your honesty and perspective. Are there times when you feel controlled by LI? What are some of your triggers for becoming more private and or introspective? (If you don’t mind my asking…”

    I don’t really feel controlled by him but as I said, I do feel shame and embarassment and critical towards myself about some things that I do which makes me very sensitive and trigger happy if he makes even a small comment about it.

    For example, I feel passionate about studying personal growth topics, researching things on the Internet, posting here. He’s not so into those kinds of things and sometimes he doesn’t like it when I am on the computer a lot.

    Over time we have worked it out. He understands now that this is my passion and he sees how I am applying it and growing as a person so it’s not so much of an issue anymore. Before he thought I cared more about other things than I did spending time with him. I’ve learned to find a balance where even if there is something that I am immersed in, I know when to step back and have some quality time with him.

    As far as what triggers me to be introspective…

    Well one thing is, I’m very critical of myself and set high standards for myself. I’m very internally motivated. I have enough internal pressure and I feel really bad when people pressure me from the outside as well.

    I feel open to feedback and honest sharing but I get pretty shut down to outside pressure and being told what to do.

    One thing I really appreciate about my LI is that he has learned what pushes my buttons and makes and effort to approach me differently.

    For example, he just came out and said “babe, I’m going to ask you this again…if you use the wooden spoon to make cat food will you please rinse it right away?”

    This is a pet peeve of his and he has asked me not to do it before but when he said it this time, there was no charge or blame and it was an easy conversation.

    I just said “oh I’m sorry babe. I’ll try to remember.”

    Also, instead of saying “you should do this” to me, he says “I invite you to”.

    One of the things he loves about me is my independent spirit yet he also recognizes that because of this I don’t take well to being bossed around. I do respond well however to gentle guidance.

    So these are just a few thoughts. If you have any other specific questions, I’d be happy to answer.

  386.  #386Daria on May 3, 2011 at 10:51 am

    The thank yourself tool is something I created from an inner Bonding article.

  387.  #387Daria on May 3, 2011 at 10:53 am

    I feel embarrassed being made fun of. It felt embarrassing to write about poop w men around and that thought flashed through my head and I got the feeling.

    And it’s ok. Practice bring ok w me no matter what anyone thinks.

    Having men is more like real life too.

  388.  #388Laughing Goddess on May 3, 2011 at 10:59 am

    Everybody poops!

  389.  #389Dorothea on May 3, 2011 at 11:06 am

    Pssh, I don’t poop.

  390.  #390Daria on May 3, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Hmm I’m am feeling like a punchy punch in my glut my and heat rising up .

    I am feeling triggered because I am under the impression that Loneplum is taking subtle digs at me and other people who were triggered by the ‘dirty’ stuffer in her post.

    Like saying ‘Meemee will not misread my post’ seems to me to imply that *I* because I felt triggered, Did misread.

    And I still feel triggered by all the man’s money and what a woman should shouldn’t stuff. It feels triggering to me.

    And I don’t want to be implied that I misread. I read the words clearly, it’s just that that particular stuff triggered me.. In a way that I felt outraged and furious.

    Nothing personal with Loneplum. Loneplum rocks and she has an exquisite clarity of expression and is an excellent supporter and motivator.

    I do sometimes experience her as judgemental, I’ve experienced that reading posts from her around sec for example. That’s me and my filters and I also am under the impression that her intent is not to judge but to empower.

  391.  #391Elizabeth on May 3, 2011 at 11:21 am

    382 Rori

    That speaks well to my recent experiences also.

    So, yes, guys, would very much appreciate your insights and perceptions about “attack mode”.

    After feeling too unheard, disregarded, and undervalued for long enough, even after expressing myself clearly, I told him I was walking, not as an ultimatum, but because I felt there was not a sincere desire on his part to communicate honestly.

    This was met with an attack of anger, hostility and resentment. Was also told I had an idealistic paradigm.

    So, guys, what say ye?


  392.  #392Daria on May 3, 2011 at 11:26 am

    Elizabeth –

    If someone told me they ‘felt’ there was not a sincere desire on MY part to communicate honestly… I would feel PIST!!

  393.  #393Simply Shannon on May 3, 2011 at 11:38 am

    Ok, shivers. I just wrote about embarrassment on the Calling In The One site looking for help. Since Daria just wrote that word here, I feel inspired to share here as well. Any help/insights would be greatly appreciated.
    There is something huge here for me to uncover [re: embarrassment]. This came up for me on the call last night and also after two incidents with my children the past two days.

    I feel RAGE (white hot blinding rage) whenever I feel embarrassed/humiliated/criticized. Both of my sons experienced a humbling experience this week, and I was right there with them getting the full effect. In the moment I was frozen, like a deer in headlights. They weren’t in mortal danger but I could not get my mouth to work to tell the adult in question to BACK OFF.

    And afterward, OMG… I wanted to KILL someone. How dare you humiliate my child??? Roar… momma bear coming out. Just thinking about it now, my heart is pounding and my belly feels hot.

    I know this is coming up from something in my past about ME (not them, I think the momma bear thing is secondary). I don’t know what yet but I feel like it’s a key to many of my experiences.

    I definitely avoid anything that would embarrass me.

    Ok, gonna drop this train of thought for now. Too much there. Feeling uncomfortable. I intend to solve this riddle by the weekend. I want to know what this is and where it came from.
    Any insight??

  394.  #394Daria on May 3, 2011 at 11:40 am

    Not because of using felt instead of think… But because I would think they are all in my business and judging me.

    Like who are you to tell me what my desires are and attack me by basically implying I’m not honest. Hell no. I would resist or else drop this person that I would think is toxic out of my life.

    Most people DO NOT perceive themselves as not having a sincere desire to communicate honestly,

    Ugh I’m feeling triggered and angry imagining being approached that way…, wow!

  395.  #395Daria on May 3, 2011 at 11:45 am

    Simply Shannon – I think most of u’s feel rage to cover humiliation. No need to find exactly where it came from… Just process it like any other feeling Rori style.

    Also you can EFT tap on the source even though you dint know it.

  396.  #396Daria on May 3, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Elizabeth – hope this doesn’t trigger too much to be possibly helpful..

    It sounds like you wanted something from him, some answer that to you meant ‘honest communication’ and focused on getting that. He resisted .

    You walled away while judging him ‘less than’ for not giving u that thing u wanted.

    The vibe comes off as focused on extracting something and not as open and leaned back.

  397.  #397Simply Shannon on May 3, 2011 at 11:51 am

    I just had a conversation with one of the adults in question (who embarrassed my child.) Everything in my being wanted to run away from this man. I feel happy to report that I had an adult conversation with him. I told him how I felt and what I was going to do. I didn’t ask him what he thought because in this case I don’t care, nor do I want his opinion. I will only do that which I feel comfortable doing. And I will stand up for myself. Yeah me!!

    Maybe I’m breaking this pattern. Typically I say nothing during the incident, and then I feel rage afterward which never goes away because I basically stop interacting with the person who inflicted the pain. It never gets cleared out. It stays with me like toxic, nasty poison.

    Aha! I usually build a wall around myself and that means the pain stays INSIDE the wall WITH me instead of being released. (Just watched a video about that on fastereft.com – thanks Jen!)

    Hmm… God really is working things out behind the scenes and bringing me bits and pieces to gently help me along this journey.

  398.  #398Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Elizabeth they say hindsight is 20/20. As such maybe because of his experience he did not experience your words in the way you meant them. You also might not have experienced him in a way that was healthy for you. It was how you felt then. You know better now but I would not suggest diminishing your feelings. Something might have been happening that was causing some undercurrent that you were not aware of and such your feelings. In any event I personally am not convinced what you wrote are actual feelings so I don’t use them to describe my feelings. I now tend to think and speak that I want to feel cherished instead of using those terms. For me it also creates positive vibes inside me when I think in those terms. However, I suspect that maybe his wall prevented him from providing you with what you needed in that relationship so even though you might have been clear he might have been unable to hear you because he was not in a place to give you the relationship you wanted. Does that make sense to you?

  399.  #399Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    SS I checked out the site. Thanks for mentioning it. I definitely will be going back.

    It is a self-empowering system that gives you control over your past, present and your future. It will show you how to design and to transform your life right now. You’ll discover it is 100% true and undisputed facts about life and how it works. So, now you can consciously change the unconscious mind, you can transform your body and improve your emotional health easily with FasterEFT.

  400.  #400The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    #382 #392 Rori, Liz, an excourse about “attack mode”? That requires some serious thinking. I don’t think I can do that ad hoc, I’m not conscious enough about how and why I get into such a mood to be able to synthetize this into some general points. This would require to think about m,y past, and I hate that.

    So, by scratchoing only at the surface, I can only say that it basically seems to be triggered by communication failure. Not necessarily only those of the other side, but mine, too. Regardless, it’s usually the feeling of not being understood despite my very best efforts that makes me go balistic. I don’t know if that’s the same for other guys, too, but I guess for at least some of them. And probably also for a lot of you ladies, so I think Rori is right and this isn’t a gender specific issue.

    Ok, to come to your current problem, Liz, I don’t know enough (sry, my lousy memory again) to really be able to tell you what’s going on. To be honest, I just wrote several sentences about female communication in general, according to The Lurker, that I deleted because they would only unfairly trigger you. Let me better ask you some questions instead: What is the point he allegedly doesn’t talk with you about? How and when did you communicate this to him? And what exactly was his response, or at least typical response?

    Btw, even if you don’t mean it as an ultimatum, it is one. If he doesn’t do X, then you’ll do Y. Of course he’ll see that as an ultimatum. Which probably will be instinctively rejected by him, but that doesn’t mean he won’t react on this, after some time of thinking about the alternatives.

  401.  #401The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    Rereading the stuff above, I notice that just thinking about “female communication” triggers me. Too many negative examples, I guess. Have to think about this more.

    How shall I react on this trigger, with Rori’s tools? Embrace the negative feeling, and then what?

  402.  #402Jacqueline on May 3, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    So – here’s my “thinking” words….

    Words written as pablum or reassurance to someone using their specific metaphorical imagery should be marked as thus, especially when the person they are addressed to is not posting, nor perhaps reading. Otherwise, one runs the risk of the general public assuming that the words are meant to be read, indeed, exactly as they are written. And express common definitions given to such words that all persons who enjoy a high level of reading comprehension would assume.

    And, in general, inflammatory labeling words such as dirty vs. clean can be expected to be triggering. Particularly when coupled with a highly charged emotional subjects such as money, and even more so when coupled with the concept of who owes whom within a relationship. Obviously, the application of such words to one’s particular situation could result in the opposite effect of that which was intended.

    Simply put, it could make women who are stay at home wives or mothers feel “dirty,” if they are enjoying the support of a man. Or, it could make women who simply enjoy the gifts of a man that have monetary value feel “dirty.”

    However, with the valuable clarifying input from the author of the words, I can certainly appreciate her intent. Within that parameter, the post was quite effective!

    And here’s my feeling words:

    Wow, Loneplum, I didn’t get that. I took it personally. And if it were written to comfort Meemee I’m totally on board – I was one of the first to suggest she go after full repayment. Some of the words felt bad to me, had a residual lingering labeling effect of dirtiness, but I’m glad you are showing your love here and appreciate your contribution!

    Happy day!


  403.  #403Jacqueline on May 3, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Shannon, thank you and I appreciate you. I hope the clearing and the ability to use your voice will be a lifelong gift for you around this with no more need for fury. I hate to think of you going through that, but even more – I admire you for it!!


  404.  #404Jacqueline on May 3, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    Daria, I loooove what pooping does for my stomach! And it means I eat healthy. A person can totally tell how healthy they are by their pooping. It actually has a lot of value in regards to health.

    Thank you for having no limits, and not accepting taboos!!

    Hoping you are feeling less lonely today.

    High five…


  405.  #405The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    Lol Jacqueline! Caution, judgment follows: Imho you’re bitching, but it’s classy bitching, written with a winking eye. Hehe!

  406.  #406Daria on May 3, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Lurker – hmm… Just notice your triggers u’s enough to get the changes happening…

    Because by Noticing, you are doing something different than before, when they were running you without you noticing them

    Oh and love yourself – like you can say you know I’m a standup guy for noticing this and not reacting or judging blindly. And it’s totally ok that I have this trigger and I intend to keep noticing amd redirecting my thoughts to heal it

  407.  #407Bonnie on May 3, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    ok so i have a casual date tonight and what i mean by casual is me and my friend are going to a baseball game and i have invited this guy (whom i have never seen before) to the game with us. Most of me feels like i am not ready for this yet. It has been 3 months since me and the ex broke up. I am still hurting greatly and still love him with most of my being. My friends keep pushing me to get out there. Not sure if i should cancel having the new guy come tonight or not. HELP PLEASE

  408.  #408Queenbee on May 3, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Rori has an article in the power and self-esteem about thanking yourself.

    Self-love/ self-acknowledgement has been around a long time and Rori expresses this same idea beautifully in her article.

    I personally love the way Daria uses it on the Island. It feels better than if I thanked myself in my journal.

    Just sayin’


  409.  #409The Lurker on May 3, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    Hear ya!

  410.  #410cati on May 3, 2011 at 1:21 pm


    Ok… I fell into the trap of “expectation” with R and I realize now that I shouldn’t have.
    Even though I just met R, the connection with him was much, much stronger than dating K for 2 months. However, Rori made a point in her book that if they’re not in front of you, it’s not a real relationship and K wants to be in front of me every chance he gets (once he figured out that I don’t chase guys, if they want me to pay attention to them, they’re going to have to step it up – with a little bit of encouragement from me of course 🙂 ).
    Anywho, after last night there’s been a shift inside of me which is great and no, I don’t want to keep anybody at arms length. That doesn’t just kill you but it sabotages whatever potential that there is.

    The whole dating thing is something I am very rusty at and it’s taken me two years just to get through the grief of losing my late husband of almost 8 years. Baby steps, baby steps.

  411.  #411kaitlyn on May 3, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    I’m not ready to date again. Furthermore, I have no room inside me to manage both trying to build a career and opening my heart to CD.

  412.  #412Daria on May 3, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    “The first step is always to STOP beating yourself up.

    If we’re always punishing ourselves, we’ll be attracted to and attractive for men who will punish us FOR us.

    And what happens when we do that?

    We blame the man. But really, all he’s doing is his “job” of punishing and hurting us so WE don’t have to do the dirty job.

    To really jump into this first step, just STOP.

    That means, no matter what’s happened or what’s happening, don’t do these things:

    Don’t blame anyone.

    Accept that you likely made some mistakes, didn’t listen to your inner voice that was alerting you to his red flags, and didn’t stand by your boundaries – and be THRILLED that you’ve now caught those mistakes so you don’t have to make them again!

    That’s right – be EXCITED.

    I KNOW, from all my personal experience and from watching over all the experiences of my clients, that catching your mistakes, and being HAPPY that you’ve caught them, instead of punishing yourself and blaming yourself for making them in the first place is the FASTEST way to the relationship you want.

    Being angry at yourself will slow yourself down.

    Trying to blame anyone will slow you down.

    Being angry at him will help you – if you can just FEEL your anger and not bother with reasons, or causes, or blame.”

  413.  #413Queenbee on May 3, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    I definitely feel that too sometimes – Attack mode.

    Usually it’s when I’m dealing with something in me and there seems to be no answer. Or I’m resisting something in me.

    I’ll attack by picking something trivial to be upset about and communicate my dissatisfaction. Usually with those closest to me…. who I don’t really want to attack.

    I do notice when I’m in this mode, coz I always have a choice in my battles.

    It doesn’t feel good to go on attack mode. People won’t get it and then start to walk on eggshells.

    It feels bad. I much prefer sinking into my feelings.


  414.  #414Lucy on May 3, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    My ex is here mowing, raking, giving me stuff, solving some of my logistic and money problems, etc. (all without my asking). He told me I look good in my jeans hehe. I gave back by pouring him some coffee, then I said, “Oh yeah, you like stuff in it…” (I drink mine black, so I got some sugar out for him) and he smiled and said, “Yeah, I like it light and sweet, like you.” I feel blessed.

  415.  #415Daria on May 3, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    wow Jaqueline, i love your feeling words! thank you

  416.  #416Daria on May 3, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    19 man is in town and he’s gonna come see me!

    on public transportation

    i feel sad because he’s only gonna be in town for a week


  417.  #417Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    Lucy something is really working

  418.  #418Jacqueline on May 3, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Kaitlyn!! Oh, thank heavens…you’re here. Yeah….I’ve been looking for you and getting worried. Better now, and sorry you are still down. Sad face but i don’t do smileys…((((huuuuuugggg))))

    Lurker – no it was an honest attempt on my part to learn and feel the differences and see which communicates better. Something I’ve been doing for a whole year now. lol I just keep practicing, I think I’m getting better. But then I think I should just change my name to Jack. Seesaw…

    Lucy! Yeah!!! Gosh, I cried once when I’d had hand surgery and couldn’t start the lawnmower….so dang frustrating. I’m happy for you and know what a huge relief it is.

    Queenbee – Just a shoutout and a lot of love for you!

    I had a mini breakthrough moment…somehow!!! my guy heard me. WOW….so I get the flood insurance bill and it’s gone up to $350.00 and it’s due in a month and I’m hyperventilating, well not really, but sucker punched cuz I rarely forget a bill…and he says we’ve got time and I hear SH8T I’m gonna end up paying this dam bill myself.

    Then he says, hey you know what, why don’t we just knock that out this week so we don’t have to worry about it?…..

    O. M. GOSH….whoooopdeeeloooping….I’m gonna hold him to that, totally!

    Yeah for men!!! Yeah for listening!! Yeah for love!

  419.  #419Queenbee on May 3, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    During my CD at the party, I found myself thinking how fun it was and how it would be to include HotAmazing man.

    Anyway, in the morning when I woke up, I had this intense desire to contact HotAmazing man. I definitely have not felt this before. So I did.

    He was kind as usual. We talked for 15 mins. I told him that I felt this strong desire so I didn’t want to resist my intuition to call him. I told him of my performance and the party. He says he wishes he was there.

    Then I say, that’s interesting. I was about to say yeah, me too, it was so cool blah blah. Then I stopped myself, coz I didn’t want to say that. So I caught myself and came up with something generic.

    So he tells me what he’s doing this week and that he’ll be back next week on Monday early morning. So I feel good and that was it.

    Today I just rested. No studio, no working out…. When I woke up I couldn’t stop thinking about him – HotAmazing man that is. So I just lay there and got into my feelings.

    I feel loosened up. I’m still taking babysteps around the whole Easter vacay issue and I still feel bad when I get deep in thought about it. But it’s really ME that I’m working on and what I need to heal.

    …And also whether this man is even right for me… to continue practicing with, dating or even an LTR.

    At this point, I don’t know. *Sigh*

    I may be out of town when he returns. I don’t know what will happen next…

    I miss him… and it’s okay to feel my anger, confusion, frustration and more yucky feelings….



    I’m noticing my over-excitability shows up when I’ve been feeling stuck, closed off and down and then I go out – that’s when I want to party hardcore and it’s like nothing else matters 🙂 🙁

    Here’s to manifesting abundance in all areas of my life – finding balance, cruising, flowing and experiencing my full self-expression in a way that feels good to me.


  420.  #420Queenbee on May 3, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Hi Jacqueline. Thanks! I love having you on the Island… even if you changed your name to Jack. But Jacqueline sounds just about perfect to me.


  421.  #421Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    “The thing here is to “Get on with it – to actually get what you want, not stay STUCK in what you DON’T WANT.

    And, pain and misery and blame and beating yourself or anyone else up will NOT HELP.

    So – step one is simply to Stop Trying to Place the Blame and actually FEEL what you feel.”

  422.  #422Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    “The fastest way to get used to not blaming yourself and beating yourself up is to reprogram your brain to think differently.

    If you can start believing that what will make all the difference is not in figuring out what’s going wrong and placing blame, but in GETTING WHAT YOU WANT – even if it’s not with this man, everything will get better.”

  423.  #423Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    “And the way to that new belief is in talking to yourself in a new way.

    I really recommend that you try out my Heart Connection Toolkit (it comes with a trial, so there’s no risk except in NOT HAVING IT) and listen to Disc 2, over and over and over again. Let it do the work FOR you.

    I know you’ll start feeling better right away, start getting used to thinking more positively about yourself and about men and about love.”

  424.  #424Queenbee on May 3, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    I feel weird playing any kind of ‘couples game’. I’ve never done it. Though I haven’t been in a relationship where emotional intimacy was the reason/ priority in the relationship.

    I still feel weird. I prefer more subtle techniques… like FMs, which isn’t a game… and is powerful and effective.

    I do Take Two in my head a lot. Especially if I feel attacked or something has gone wrong and not worth my energy to try and fix it, I just do a take two until I feel better.

    It reprograms my brain and keeps me in a positive vibe.


  425.  #425kaitlyn on May 3, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    A girl friend of mine is now saying I need to write Adam how I feel, and that if I don’t, it will look like I’m indifferent and uncaring. What do you all think?

  426.  #426Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    kaitlyn – i think it would be GREAT to Tell Adam how you feel AFTER he contacts you

    i think writing him now, might pull him in temporarily, for like a convo, but that’s it

    i also think it will be attraction FAIL

    *says woman who wrote Guywho letter telling him how i feel and wound up feeling humiliating

  427.  #427Femininepower on May 3, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    She could possibly be right. However what came to mind was the fact that we sometimes look for someone to agree with us on how we feel and what we think. I think I suggested before that if that is what you want to do to go ahead and do it. One way or the other you will learn what works with him or what happens when you do such things with him. You might end up feeling bad if he does respond the way you expect, then what…

    If you don’t care about how he responds, then that’s another story. For the most part what I have read here shows that usually the response to that type of action is not what we are looking for. Experience teaches wisdom.

  428.  #428Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    “We were all brought up to believe that we have to ACCOMPLISH.

    We have to keep the house clean, we have to manage everyone’s schedules, we have to get to work on time and do our work thoroughly and conscientiously – and at the end of the day, we’re told to look back and MEASURE what we’ve accomplished.

    But LOVE doesn’t work like that.

    The things we measure love by – kisses, words of love, romantic gestures, proposals, time spent together, engagement and wedding rings – aren’t things WE CAN ACCOMPLISH!”

  429.  #429Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    also Kaitlyn, he lives in a different part of the country. he couldn’t provide a real life relationship to you now in this circumstance

  430.  #430Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    “And we can only be in charge of the part we have.

    And, horrible as it sounds and feels, we have to let our man be totally in charge of his part.

    He has to kiss. He has to massage us and be an enthusiastic lover. He has to speak words of love. He has to propose. He has to call us up and make plans to see us. He has to buy the engagement ring and he has to stand next to us at the wedding.”

  431.  #431Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    “If he were a puppet we could manipulate, would we even want him?

    Or would he be one of those weak, puppy-dog men we can’t stand?

    It took me a long time to make peace with this bottom-line truth.

    If we could tell a man what to do to make us happy, and he did it, we wouldn’t be happy.

    What we want is for a man to WANT to make us happy.”

  432.  #432Mel on May 3, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    “If we could tell a man what to do to make us happy, and he did it, we wouldn’t be happy.
    What we want is for a man to WANT to make us happy.””

    Love this Daria! You have posted some very helpful things today! Thanks.

  433.  #433kaitlyn on May 3, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    D, I don’t know if he’s still on East Coast. He made some snarky comment about LA people yesterday via his fb.

  434.  #434Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    Mel – Sure! this is from Rori’s e-letter… it’s so chockfull of helpful stuff that for me it helps to break it down in lil aha’s

  435.  #435Daria on May 3, 2011 at 2:47 pm

    Kaitlyn – i see! perhaps he will contact you… then you can tell him how you miss him

  436.  #436kaitlyn