The Psychic Told Her She Was Cursed – Is That True?

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I have a love/hate relationship with the idea of psychic ability and psychics. I’ve taken sessions with lovely friends who are psychics, like Ann O’Brien and Lisbeth Kimbrough and Lorrie Kazan, and “channelers,” and “intuitives” and “sensitives” – and when they are women (and men) I love and feel good with and trust – I welcome their insights – as long as they do not even MENTION anything about or “in”  the future.

I do NOT believe that ANYTHING is predetermined. I believe that everything morphs (even that bacteria and cells in our body that we label “bad” at one moment can turn “good” in the next…and there’s science to back that one up…).

I do believe that we are driven to repeat situations over and over until we learn what we need to learn from that situation, even from that pain, and that to interrupt those “patterns” takes the work of self-awareness and the willingness to move into the unknown: the “unknown” being everything that ISN’T in the patterns we’re so used to repeating and re-enacting.

Here’s a letter from Maureen that lets me jump off a bit into this:

“Hi Rori :

Remember how I was telling you about that guy in France that has a girlfriend…?…well, she ended up calling me and telling me that she is his wife …drama. Which is not true (she’s not his wife) – in any case – too much drama so we ended our chats (me and man)..

What amuses me is that I have been attracted to these men that I have to win somehow over someone or something somehow it hurts to see that I do that to myself. The thing is that I never win or never have won..and of course it leaves me feeling that I am not good enough…

After I broke it of with the man Jim, the doctor I told you about who was married – I was devastated and felt lost so I went to a psychic that I have know for 20 years and of course what the cards showed was a broken heart and a women devastated and in pain..and she said that I had a curse from someone in Peru and that I had bad karma with men and bad luck and all of that it really hurt me and it brought me back to so many times when I have been told this when I was younger and very susceptible.

Of course she offered prayers and stuff for which I would have to pay more money… I told her that I would pray myself… She also told me that I wouldn’t be able to get over Jim on my own, that I would need her help… And that I wouldn’t meet anyone else significant for another few month or years ..sounds dreadful…then of course I buy into this or feel like a victim of this.

But of course when things like this happen I do feel cursed I do feel bad and wrong and maybe even self punish because I feel bad about wanting to take someone from someone else…Maybe I end up doing it to myself

I don’t know why I do this and this happens over and over – or is all this propelling me to move forward and stop all this behavior that is so detrimental to me…? I ask God  for help and guidance but it seems to come too late..or not soon enough. Help, Maureen”

Here’s my answer:

Maureen – I have serious problems around psychics – (read my “Highway of Love” article).

This psychic is SO wrong – no curse exists.

My friend (she’s on my Commitment Blueprint program) Virginia Feingold Clark can help you with this – she’s a great relationship coach AND a hypnotherapist, so she can help you undo some of your programming that’s driving you to hurt and punish yourself. You can email her from her fabulous blog –

I send you to her not only because she’s a great coach, but because she has her own story about being gullible to psychics, etc. (it’s all in the book she’s writing – It’s Never Too Late to Marry, and I’ll be the first to let you know when it comes out…) – and so her story will resonate with you…

Maureen – this is going to take work – on YOU, for YOU, with YOU, by YOU.

Coaches and therapists can help you – but the work is YOURS to DO.

There’s no way around you putting in the work to undo your old, useless patterns.

AND – it’s not that HARD!  It just takes baby-steps and the willingness to put one foot in front of the other in the easiest, most fun way possible.

The baby-steps will get you out of the pattern – that’s all it is – a PATTERN – that you can BREAK…you’re just not getting there yet – but you WILL!!!!

This is a major league thing you have to do for yourself – dabbling won’t do.

You have to study spiritual stuff, you have to do the exercises, the breathing, the meditation – you have to work with someone who’ll help you get through your triggering.

AND – you have to LOVE YOURSELF through it all! That’s what I’m here for for you…to see that what’s going on is you’re pushing through your old patterns!

When you feel anxiety, and start to retreat to old behaviors, that’s your clue that you’re about to breakthrough to another level – that you’re about to peel away another layer of your “onion” – that you’re about to “lose” some props and defenses you’ve depended on most of your life.

It’s a signal of real CHANGE.

You are in transition, and what’s happening is that you’re fighting change, and that’s why you feel so bad – but….this is GOOD!!!!

Just stay aware of how bad these kinds of men, and all this punishment you’re heaping on yourself – with your own self-blame, and by “hiring” men to beat you up emotionally – FEELS to you.

As you get more aware, you’ll start to get rid of all these guys in your life EARLIER, and EASIER.

You can do this to help you move more quickly – Circular Date JUST to try out new kinds of guys and lots of them, and you’ll see – it will get better…

A “curse” – to me – is a “pattern” we are unable to see or feel unable to break.

And what’s important to know is that the pattern was ours to create – even if the pain that triggered it (the first step in the pattern being the first coping skill we created – like lying or going numb or attacking and defending, or smiling and pretending to be okay, or deferring and apologizing and bowing and scraping, or pleading and begging) was triggered by someone else.

It was US who developed that coping skill – a skill that was truly meant to PROTECT us – and turned it into this never-ending and self-dooming pattern that shows up like an armed guard even when we don’t NEED its protection.

The time for that kind of “protection” is long past.

That kind of protection only keeps us from LOVE. It closes down and covers up our hearts and makes us feel like we’ll be lost without it.

It’s like a horrible, narcissistic mother who teaches you that you will not survive without her – and so you believe that.

But not only will you survive WITHOUT that protection – you will THRIVE without it.

Because that protection brings a horrible pain of it’s own. In order to “protect” you from the original pain you suffered – it stops you from having anything you truly do WANT.

It smacks you down, punishes you, tells you you’re guilty of something (you’re not) and then makes you beat yourself up over ever little moment along the way.

It designed the pattern, keeps it alive, applies it to you regularly and at the drop of a hat, and keeps you IN LINE.

It SAYS it’s there to keep you “safe” – but what it really means is that it keeps you LOCKED DOWN.

I want to unlock you.

Unlocking doors that have been long shut in your mind, heart and body require fortitude. A bit of bravery. Willingness. And practice.

Practice alone will undo and unwind and decimate these old patterns – and if you take it in baby-steps, you won’t feel so scared that you automatically stop yourself.

But you WILL trigger the Nasty Voices inside you that speak from the “pattern” and want you to stay locked down. That want you to say “in line.”

Just keep saying NO to the old and YES to the new.

I totally, on top of the work you do for yourself, if you can manage it financially – suggest you invest in help – real coaches with real track records – and commit to doing the Tools and loving yourself 24/7!!!

Are you game!?

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1lm on July 24, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    it’s funny…i was told by a psychic when i was 19 that i should better ‘realise the power i had over men’.

    i went to a tarot reader last year and he told me that i’d be pursued by an athlete (my ex is a football player), but he wouldn’t win me because he ‘wasn’t the one’. he also said i was ‘a butterfly that needs to be chased and never caught’. hmmm….

    also, it’s my first week of cding and a guy just walked up to me out of nowhere at my cousin’s wedding and gave me his number. i don’t feel like calling him but i might text him my number back, which is something he suggested i do. yay. 🙂

  2.  #2Renee on July 25, 2010 at 3:34 am

    Ok — I just went out last night with a pilot/businessman who seems very nice but I’m just not attracted to him. He’s only 5’8″ (maybe only really 5’7″ and in my lowest heels, I was the same height if not a little taller. Not just that, but he also has a somewhat slight build, and it doesn’t make me feel as soft and feminine as when I date men who are bigger.

    Here’s where my challenge lies though…I enjoyed his company (and did end up giving him a good night kiss…I couldn’t seem to get around it — he’s actually a very good kisser) and I find him easy to talk to, but I know he’s not my ultimate guy. Since I’ve kind of put him in that box, he will undoubtedly “fall” for me and I will feel guilty if I lead him on by continuing to date him. I know Rori says to use willing and able men as free therapy and to practice her tools with these men, but I had forgotten how guilty I feel when I feel like I’m leading on a man. Do I continue seeing him?

    If I do, should I be honest about my feeling conflicted about the attraction aspect? I can’t imagine he’d feel good hearing that I find his personality appealing but not his looks, you know?

    I’ve got a few other guys I’ve been emailing whom I plan to go out with within the next couple of weeks and both of them are more my physical type…one is pretty cute, but isn’t as successful as most of the men I date…another is pretty successful, moderately cute but 3 hours away, so that will have its own challenges. There are a couple of others, but we’re just kind of beginning emailing/talking and I don’t know how I feel about them yet.

    So I guess the gist of it is, there are other men I could go out with in the coming weeks — men that seem more likely to be “my type”, but this one’s ready, willing and able to keep dating me for the time being, and like I said, he is easy to talk to…

  3.  #3Lizzie on July 25, 2010 at 7:56 am

    Oh what fun Renee! CD CD CD is where it is at. Give the shorty a good go and see what happens. Do all kinds of practice with him. You never know.
    A friend of mine is a stunner and about 5’10” and at 50 she is as gorgeous as they come. She saw herself with a 6’+ guy as her first husband was….and she is now blissfully married to …. a former jockey! and what an incredible sweetie he is! all of 5’4″ 140lbs… and I have the same feeling as you – I don’t feel feminine at all with someone who is smaller than me or the same size. And when I met my friend’s hubby, I could hardly believe my experience – he is all male energy, and totally desirable. I could have actually seen myself dating him.

    And I dated a seriously ugly man. Now this is funny because I am quite lovely at my age – I now work at staying trim and do put in the effort with my skin, hair etc. He made me laugh, was incredibly smart, sent me flowers etc etc. I would look at him and see if I could find the “attraction” – sadly I couldn’t work that through. In the end, I felt absolutely nothing, so I drew it to a conclusion. He continued to pursue me for the better part of a year, but I didn’t go out with him again. I had to tell him repeatedly “I enjoyed his company, but unfortunately I didn’t have the feelings of passion and that passion was important to me – it has been absent in my marriage and I knew it was possible to feel passion and I was looking to experience that passion in a loving relationship.”

  4.  #4Renee on July 25, 2010 at 9:14 am

    Lizzie — I’ve dated the ugly guy too, lol. We had such great phone chemistry — we’d talk for hours about everything and nothing, but in person, he was just NOT at all attractive. I actually forced myself to continue dating him for a couple of months (I wasn’t seeing anyone else, so I figured, “why not?”, but in the end, I just felt icky about spending time with him.

    I don’t know how your friend does it! I’m generally considered pretty attractive as well (though I’m definitely not a 6′ Swedish stunner:) and I guess I do see myself with someone who’s at least very close to 6′ tall…I swear I think that pilot must wear like a size 27 or 28 jeans…he’s really little, but not in great shape…so I just don’t know. I think I’ll probably go out with him a time or two more, just to practice (and I did practice last night…at one point, I questioned him about something he mentioned about his behavior in a previous relationship. He obviously didn’t care for my asking that question, so he got quiet. After what seemed like an eternity of silence, I said, “I feel like I’m being punished for asking you a question.” Of course, he denied I was being punished, but that’s really what it was! He has a bit of an ego problem, I think, but it’s not my problem, you know?

    Anyway…I’m looking forward to my first phone call with a cutie who’s callng me tonight…he actually lives in my city for a change, though he’s not quite as successful as some of the other men I’ve dated. He is awfully cute though…

  5.  #5Tmizz on July 25, 2010 at 9:38 am


    1) To the woman who wrote in (or anyone else about to fall prey to a psychic) – I believe in intuitive/sensitive abilities. I have them. But it’s true you cannot “predict” the future. Remember that these people are out there to run a business. They may have certain skills, but at the end of the day, they are telling you things designed to get you to keep coming back, and paying them more money. They are making you dependent, because ultimately, they have their own best interests at heart. Remember that you have your own best interests, and no one else can decide for you what those are.

    2) Rori, thank you. “It’s like a horrible, narcissistic mother who teaches you that you will not survive without her – and so you believe that.” To me, that’s not a metaphor. That’s an actual description of my experience. Of course, it’s hard to get other people to see that. But it’s true. My mother thrives when other people are sick and they depend on her. When they don’t or are not dependent to feed her ego, she rejects them. I’ve seen it happen many times, including to myself. I’m actually lucky. My sister was driven to suicide by my mother’s tyranny. Still, everyone who knows her says, “she’s a great lady,” and “she does so much for the community.” But all she ever did for us was to create havoc and destruction in our lives and our hearts – and hers. It actually causes a lot of pain for me to see and know that she is in pain. But I can’t ignore the fact that I am in pain now and my life and heart are suffering because I’ve set up so many defense mechanisms AGAINST love – because I was afraid of her “love” – that it’s hard for me to even receive the good stuff when I get it. I find that I can get very close to a person, but at the last moment, I run away or become hyper-defensive, because the prospect of being loved is so threatening to my harsh inner voice – that voice that tells me I’m bad and wrong and I don’t “deserve” good things, or that I “need” to be beat up emotionally in order to know that I am loved. Unfortunately, no amount of therapy has ever remedied this situation. I am working my way out of it now by doing what you said, Rori. By taking baby steps, by being patient, by becoming more aware of these old, dead, pointless (and destructive) patterns. By listening to my body’s signals, and by talking to friends who support me – NOT listening to the negative feedback from the men I’ve “hired” (or who have volunteered) to emotionally abuse me. Even when they do. I might take it personally at first, but I’m much better now at recognizing when they are not talking to me so much as repeating an old, dead pattern of their own. This work is long and hard, but, I hope, as easy as you say. I only want to encourage other women in a similar situation, because the first step is the hardest. I have to keep telling myself that the past does not determine my future. And that’s the best psychic prediction I can make for myself.

  6.  #6moli on July 25, 2010 at 11:40 am

    Ha nice one girls. This is the exact question I’ve been asking myself. I’m dating an ugly guy, but I kind of like him. He’s great to really talk to and very funny…but… I’m not sure the chemistry is there.

    I really want to give it a chance but he’s started initiating goodnight kisses and I’m really not feeling ready for that… I guess i just tell him that right? I’m enjoying getting to know him but I don’t feel ready to take it any further yet???

    I don’t want to lead him on until I’m sure how I feel???

  7.  #7Jilly on July 25, 2010 at 11:59 am

    This is great! I’ve been wondering the same thing…
    I recently went out with this guy (I’m 30 he’s 43) not sure if that matters…but during our dinner conversation he said he usually comes on too strong in the beginning…(I put that in the back of my brain) any way (he’s a pilot also) he went away for 5 days and he communicated with me the whole time and when he got back he called me 4 times in one day and text messaged asking if I miss him???? it feels icky to me…super nice guy..
    not really feeling physically attracted..
    and now not feeling attracted at all…
    I feel I’ve shut down on him and put up walls…
    any suggestions on feeling messages here???

  8.  #8Jilly on July 25, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    But on the other hand I feel excited and happy that there are other men who I have dates with this week that seem to be a different calaber then what I’ve had previously!!

    Step 1
    guys who are unavailable or toxic
    nice guys, no physical attraction but easy to talk to..
    Step 3
    nice guys, with attraction and totally stepping up??? 😉 this feels good 🙂

  9.  #9Renee on July 25, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    Hi Jilly — maybe, “I feel a little smothered by this amount of attention when we’re just starting to get to know each other. I’d like to take things a bit slower. What do you think?”.

    That might give you the time you need to see how you feel about him and hopefully, he’ll respect your boundaries…if he doesn’t that tells you something in and of itself, you know?

    I actually remember having a conversation about that very thing with the ugly guy I dated — this was before we’d even met and he was calling me multiple times a day. Unfortunately, I used a blaming message, “You’re coming on too strong for me and it’s pushing me away.” He never really forgot that I had said that initially either.

    Moli, I don’t know what to say. I identify with you a great deal because of the whole kissing aspect of things…it’s hard to let yourself kiss someone you’re just not attracted to without gagging, you know? What about telling him that you don’t want to rush the physical side of your relationship because you feel you’re just now getting to know him? Maybe you could say you want to focus on really getting to know him before things getting confused by the physical aspect…I don’t know. It’s a tough thing to deal with though…I’d like to know how Rori would recommend we deal with kissing ugly men?

  10.  #10Renee on July 25, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    Jilly — I’m just starting to get to step 3 I guess. I have a call I’m expecting tonight from a very attractive guy who seems to be available and is definitely ‘stepping up’. I actually almost blew him off a couple of times (because he’s the district manage of a chain of Dollar General Stores and I’m used to dating attorneys and business owners and such) but he wrote again when I failed to write him back — twice! I realized I might be missing out on a really great guy…after I stopped writing at one point, he asked for a second chance, which was kind of sweet, so I’m really looking forward to chatting with him. The nicest thing is that he’s actually located in my city (with all my online dating, I often date guys who live in other cities).

  11.  #11Rori Raye on July 25, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Tmizz – Welcome, and I so get what you feel, and I know how it feels, and I’ve seen this in my own family in a horrifying way. You sound amazing and I KNOW you are going to turn this around. Whoops – turning into a post….will jump off…look for it.. ALL change for the better has to be a step-by-step process (even if it happens overnight!!!). It’s one “aha” moment after another…it’s sort of “sidestepping” your ego and the habits and letting love in bit by bit. If you were my client – I’d start this way….Step-by-step loving yourself no matter WHAT. And then, I’d try to find some spiritual way for you that you can feel loved 100% of the time by God, or by nature – but in a way where NOTHING is EXPECTED of you or WANTED from you. I would encourage you to do nothing but feel and experience – and allow yourself to descend a bit into the chaos of major change. You are asking yourself to create an entirely new world view. To forsake your ego and strike out into the unknown…Love, Rori

  12.  #12Jilly on July 25, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    Renee…that is a great feeling message! so far he’s texted me twice “Do you miss me?” ugggghhh!!

    lol…I’m sure he never forgot that..and that’s almost what I texted this guy (along the same I feel this because YOU…)…but I thought better of it but was at a loss for feeling messages..

    I also feel the same way about kissing guys I’m not attracted to…no thanks! i feel curious about what Rori would say too…

    I feel happy that I’m noticing when I start shutting down or noticing old patterns and habits and
    thought processes in “the moment”

    Renee keep us posted! I understand about having judgements about the type of profession a guy has…I met this guy who had tons of vending machines..he made great money but i had to tell myself it didn’t matter what he did as long as he had a good job!

    I have a date tomorrow night with this guy who is close to my age, has recently sold his own business he is a software engineer..races sail boats all over the world and we are having a picnic at the yacht club…he’s providing everything! sounds too good to be true!!

  13.  #13Tmizz on July 25, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    Thanks, Rori. That was so what I needed to hear today. I will look for your post!

  14.  #14Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Interesting post!

    My first date with garden guy was today. He was not disappointed in my looks after raving about my pics. 🙂 He said I look like he expected and told me I have a unique, captivating, multi-faceted look that he is sure must draw tons of men to me. That felt AWESOME to hear!!!

    He looked BETTER in person than in his pics — was fun, interesting (smart!) and engaging. He was my first CD ever who brought me flowers on the first date — it was a lovely surprise! They were mixed wildflowers from a farmer’s market — my favorite!

    We ate Italian food, he was a perfect gentleman, took complete charge of everything. I leaned back as much as I could — but he was so easy to talk to that I ended up talking quite a bit, which he found delightful — and he loved my intelligence. He said I really sparkle and have something that really draws a man in — that I am so soft and open and vulnerable and genuine and free — and that he already knows he would like to go out with me again. I could see the excitement in his eyes. He also said that I seem to have a sort of innocence or naivete where I seem to be unaware of how powerfully magnetic I am and that the sparkle that is in my eyes when I look at him disarms him and seems like it means I’m into him but then he realizes I’m so naive about the effect it has, that it might not mean to ME what it means to HIM. His career is as a Perception Consultant for business, so he is very aware of the interplay of perception and reality. It felt kind of fascinating to listen to him. Also, it felt SUPER SUPER SUPER GOOD to hear and experience his attraction to me!!!! Our conversation was so open and deep.


    Toward the end of our enjoyable three-hour lunch, he told me a little bit about his divorce story.

    His story (his perception!) in a nutshell: She was critical, often bluffing divorce threats, became distant, stopped sex . .. and eventually it led to him having a couple of affairs. She found out, he repented, they went for counseling, she blamed all their problems on him, and he eventually realized she wasn’t going to change, so he divorced her.

    As I listened to this story, I felt my sparkle fall off me like pieces of glitter falling onto the table and floor. I felt a shadow come over my face and suddenly felt tired and drained. The conversation turned to lighter things for a few minutes and then I said, “I feel tired.”

    He said he could talk to me forever, but understood that I felt tired, and we could wrap it up.

    He hugged me in the parking lot, and I said yes when he asked if I would go out with him again.

    Driving home, I felt so sad. And also MAD.

    As you may remember, he was the first CD I was meeting who actually had potential for being marriage material. I had felt good with him up until his story. I didn’t feel overwhelmingly physically attracted, but felt that had definite potential to develop. I felt intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually attracted. Until the story. Then ALL attraction faded. Only the MEMORY of my attraction remained, and it was on that basis that I agreed to a second date.

    I feel sad, mad, and disappointed. When he emails about a second date, I plan to respond with some sort of feeling message. I plan to tell him that I am open to going out again and seeing what happens, but that his cheating would be a MAJOR issue for me that would be difficult and maybe impossible for me to overcome. My first marriage involved various forms of infidelity on my ex-h’s part, and it was incredibly traumatic for me and took many years to heal.

    If any Sirens have any insights, observations, etc. I would like to hear them. I don’t really want to get into a big philosophical boy-energy discussion about cheating. But if anyone sees anything here to help me — a “message,” pattern, etc. — that would feel good. I have always felt concerned about doing a repeat of my first marriage (oh, I think I mentioned that on here recently!) — but this is the first time I have CD’d a man who admitted past infidelity. So it feels kinda interesting that it showed up. Interesting, also, that the first time it shows up, it’s in the new group of men who I finally feel attracted to and who are “potential marriage material.” Ew. That feels bad.

    He’s not a “bad boy” — he’s not even very exciting or charming — he’s a church-going, serving, ministering, “upstanding” “good guy.” By all counts, if he hadn’t told me that story, he would be a typical “safe” guy.


    That is my ex-h to a T!! He felt good and loving and safe, and was all those other things I just said in the last paragraph about garden guy!

    Is it possible that I have gotten to a point in my healing journey where I am ready to be presented with my ex-h in a different body and this time not fall for the good guy disguise? Is that the message?

    Or is it the opposite — that I should give this guy a chance and believe that he has truly changed and would never cheat again? Is it an opportunity to work through the last vestiges of the trauma from my first marriage?

    What do you think?

  15.  #15Renee on July 25, 2010 at 4:06 pm


    I would be very careful with this man. From what you said, it sounds like he blames his wife for their marriage problems and when SHE wouldn’t change, he bolted. Now, I believe that often, both partners hold some responsibility for cheating in a marriage — the one cheated on is often even somewhat to blame for their part in the disintegration of the relationship — but the bulk of the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the party who cheated — period. The fact that he said, “she did this, which led me to cheat” tells me he’s still not telling himself the truth about where the bulk of the responsibility lies. Does that make sense?

  16.  #16Renee on July 25, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    And by the way — I’ve been in the same position recently…a guy I was interested in explained the reasons for his marriage’s break up and he as well placed virtually all the blame for the failed marriage on her…my attraction melted before my eyes. I asked him whether he felt he played any part in it, and the only fault he would admit to was that he was dumb enough to choose her to marry — ouch! Even when I’ve been screwed over by a guy, I usually have to realize I played a role in what happened.

  17.  #17Jennifer on July 25, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    Ugly guys…I soooooooo neeed to to talk about this.
    I feel like ALL the guys on my matches are ugly. So clearly this is MY issue. Statistically speaking they can’t ALL be ugly. Like really.
    There is one who is emailing me…banker man. I think he has cancer..his one pic is of him bald with no eyebrows…a la chemo? Then he mentioned his diet being very speicific so I’m wondering if it’s macrobiotic.
    UGGG I feeel soo bored with this.
    I dated another guy who had a medical history. Booo.
    Like I have great sympathy for ill people..otherwise I’d be a pretty terrible nurse. But I don’t want my relationship to feel like work. BOOO.
    I’m so bored with internet dating. I feel dread everytime I get a message that I have new matches. They turn out to be un attractive no hobby types.
    This latest one to message me (not banker man) he looks like a troll doll.
    For real.
    And now since I feel that way I also feel like a bitch. Booo for being a bitch.
    Maybe my settings aren’t right or something.
    Maybe I need to go to the belief reprogramming lady.

  18.  #18Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    thanks renee – yeah i felt uncomfortable with his story 🙁

  19.  #19Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    jennifer what site?

  20.  #20Jennifer on July 25, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    I’m on Eharmony right now…I hid my profile on POF.

  21.  #21Sweetpea on July 25, 2010 at 8:36 pm


    My thought on Garden Guy is that you should proceed with caution. Do you think it would be interesting and/or helpful to talk with him some more about his cheating?

    I was engaged to a man who cheated on me, but like Renee talked about, I took responsibility for my part in that. I had stopped having sex with him. I felt undesirable & I totally lost any attraction to him, but rather than talk about it, he cheated. Nevertheless, I can’t place all of the blame on him.

    I’m not one to believe “once a cheater, always a cheater,” but I do agree with Renee in that I’m interested to know if Garden Guy takes any responsibility for the break up of his marriage. If not, I say “move on.” If he does though, hear him out. Perhaps this is something that will help you to heal even if he doesn’t end up being forever man. It also might be interesting to know if this is the only time he cheated or if it’s a trend in his life. I tend to discover things about men, bu taking an indirect approach, like in this case, I would ask him about his thoughts on Tiger Woods or Jesse James.

    Good luck my friend. Thank you for your insight on the other thread. I’ve been following by phone for about a month now, so not commenting much, but I did respond there today, finally.

  22.  #22Jennifer on July 25, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    I unhid my profile on POF….suck it up sally.
    I clearly need the practice.

  23.  #23Jacqueline on July 25, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Hi, Lucy! I would be way more scared of a guy who is into perception equalling reality, or perception anything! than infidelity. He sounds like he could be a master maniupulator, and good for you for saying you felt tired! and yeah – the blaming stuff wasn’t all that great- but his admitting infidelity just triggered you IMO. Just because he admited he did something once that cost him his marriage – and who knows what kind of pain is under that for him? – doesn’t mean he’ll do it again. Actually, I’d be more likely to think either that he was telling me to disarm me, or I’d just be hyper vigilant about it if we did get together. It was also him being honest, so if that costs him with you, so be it. I think he should get a point or two though for being so. And btw, I probably went on a hundred internet lunch dates before I met a guy last Sept. who moved in in January and so far so good. And least you think I am too niave or easy – grin – I ran a full background check on him before he moved in, criminal, etc. So, lots and lots of men and women have afffairs, but not that many tell you they have/did – maybe he was so into you he hoped not to be judged or defined by that? Anyway, my first internet lunch date the guy tells me he has a bunch of cd’s of his wife with another woman, whom she left him for – and I’m like and WHY are you telling me this?!! might oughtta tell her….so if it’s free therapy for us, it ought to be free therapy for them too. Sorry if you’re bummed, but I suggest you respond when you hear from him in from how you are feeling in that moment, and maybe do some not all guys are my ex clearing Rori Raye tools?….. Good luck!


  24.  #24Sweetpea on July 25, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    This post is right on time for me. “When you feel anxiety, and start to retreat to old behaviors, that’s your clue that you’re about to breakthrough to another level – that you’re about to peel away another layer of your “onion” – that you’re about to “lose” some props and defenses you’ve depended on most of your life.”

    Yes, yes, yes! This is exactly where I’m at right now. I’ve taken a break from Steppin’ Up Man this week and especially this weekend because it’s just all too much. Not that I’ve cut off all contact, I still talk to him & still had dinner with him Fri & Sat night, but I’ve gotten to the point where it’s all I can do to keep my heart unzipped around him. In fact, I can’t keep my heart unzipped most of the time. I’m really having to fight. And I feel just numb a lot of times. After doing so well & being so happy for the last month or so, I’ve started picking him apart. Not to him openly, but in my thoughts.

    I know that this is an old habit of mine & I even made a couple of unnecessary comment last night that are so the old me. I’m not sure how to move past this but am feeling stronger & ready to work on it now that I’ve taken some time for me. I already told him in the early stages, that I’m working on being emotionally open & that I might get scared. I feel like I need to discuss some of this with him – I’ve not been very good about using feeling messages the last couple of weeks – just trying to keep from acting out & destroying this wonderful budding relationship. Does anyone have any suggestions?

  25.  #25Jacqueline on July 25, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    Tmizzz…..just wow! I am so glad you found Rori and you are brave to share your story! You are going to be a butterfly one day, and an inspiration too.


  26.  #26Sweetpea on July 25, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    I remember you & Lizzie talking about how bad pof is. Ifeel interested to know what is so bad about it. I was on Match before I found pof and had no success on there whatsoever. I contribute it partially to my not having started practicing Rori’s tools before pof, but I’ve had so much more luck on there.

    Maybe it’s just a geographic difference?

    Good for you for un-hiding yourself though. Practice, practice.

  27.  #27Sweetpea on July 25, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    So much more luck on pof that is.

  28.  #28Jennifer on July 25, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    sweet pea..
    it seems to be geographic.
    The other sirens seem to be having more “luck” than me? more interactions if you will.
    Maybe it’s a Canadian thing…the men just don’t seem to want to step up and initiate dates. I find Im pratically having to beg…ewwwwwwwwwwwwww.
    At least hint really strongly.
    I feel pouty.

  29.  #29Sweetpea on July 25, 2010 at 9:13 pm


    If it’s any encouragement to you, I find the more I practice Rori’s tools & the more open I am, the more response I get on-line. I haven’t even updated my profile much. It just seems they can sense (even on-line) that I’m open and feeling sireny. I just had a guy I’ve been emailing back and forth with for awhile (he lives in a diff city & I’ve been on a dating hiatus. Just CDing on-line) that he can tell “I’m different than the other women and I kick butt.

    So keep working on you & it will turn around. And… When you’re feeling particularly sireny, just tweek your profile a little. Just throw that confident vibe into changing a sentence or two, or add something if you feel like it. I find it helps with mine.

  30.  #30Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    thanks everyone for your input. i am feeling angry hearing defenses and excuses for him. a wife that stops having sex with her h usually has a good reason imo (or is cheating on him) so imo there is never ever justification for cheating. i would not trust him from the get-go. i would feel afraid that if i didn’t live up to all his expectations he would feel justified in cheating. i don’t give him any credit whatsoever for his so-called “honesty.” it is very common for dishonest ppl to spill some info in ord

  31.  #31Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 10:37 pm

    to APPEAR honest as a way of giving a person a false sense of security and trust. i am not impressed with anyone who admits to cheating like that. i have heard the same kind of confession from friends, acquaintances, counselees, etc. it is pretty common for ppl to fess up to cheating while poiting a finger at the one who “drove them to it” – it is preemptive – they know it will come out sooner or later and they know they will look better if they spill it upfront.

  32.  #32Lucy on July 25, 2010 at 10:45 pm

    i am feeling more and more that this is a redo of my ex-h and i am given the chance to see it and not fall for the good guy disguise like i did the first time. with him i got a gut feeling to call off the wedding but everyone talked me out of it. it feels like de ja vu with my gut saying don’t trust this guy but other ppl saying give him a chance and excusing his choices. 🙁

  33.  #33Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 12:05 am


    Just for the record, I wasn’t excusing his cheating. I don’t excuse my ex’s cheating either. But I still take responsibility for my part in the relationship failing. And part of that failure was that I stopped having sex with him. That was a symptom of bigger issues, but still my bad.

    My point was that this is obviously a big trigger for you. Perhaps you need to explore what you can learn from this so you don’t have to keep experiencing it. If it is to avoid the seemingly good guy and you’re confident there is nothing more you can learn from him, then by all means, drop him like a hot potato!

  34.  #34Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 5:50 am


    There is never a justification for cheating. There are reasons, there are causes, but it is always the wrong choice. I feel this man was sent to you for a reason and not because he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He is obviously triggering you, and that is a good thing! The first feeling to come up for me is always anger. I hope you can get past the anger in to the deeper feelings you have surrounding this issue and use them on this man as therapy to heal yourself. That is what I feel CDing is all about. I don’t feel he is about your X, I feel he is about healing you – if that makes sense?

  35.  #35Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 5:51 am

    Lucy – what triggered me was his reaction to you upon meeting – his talking about the powerful, magnetic you, how you have an impact, how disarming you are….charm charm charm. It feels unnatural, overly charming, it triggers suspect, distrust, step-back and reflect. Hmmmmm ….It feels like the big hook coming out to catch me, I feel like fleeing…I need to examine these feelings more.

  36.  #36Renee on July 26, 2010 at 6:04 am

    Lucy — The only thing I can think regarding your possible “purpose” in meeting this man is so that you do have a chance to heal yourself from your old pain. Something that occurs to me when a guy says his partner did “x”, which drove him to “y”, is that he’s almost giving you fair warning that if you do “x”, he’s going to feel justified in doing “y” because he told you up front that that’s his knee-jerk response.

    I would feel more comfortable with him if he had said something like, “This is very hard for me to admit, but I cheated on my wife when we were married. At the time, I felt justified because she was doing “xyz”, but I know there’s never any true justification for my behavior and I’ve learned a big lesson from that.” It almost sounds as if he’s challenging you to be “better” than his ex in order to keep him faithful, does that make sense?

    Jennifer — if you feel like your matches and you don’t have much in common, you may want to ask eHarmony if you can retake their personality profile. It’s possible that when you answered the questions before, you were feeling less confident and “sireny” and therefore, you’re being matched with men who are less confident with themselves too.

    I’ve found that eHarmony matches people on similarities in every aspect of their personalities, so you may want to answer the questions the way you envision your perfect match would answer them…that’s what I did and even though I’m still not attracted to most of my matches, I am attracted to some of them (I think that’s just part of the challenge of eHarmony — they match mostly on personality and looks only come into play based on how confident people say they are in their appearance, so people who say they’re happy with their bodies and rate themselves as sexy get matched with other people who say the same. You don’t want to outright lie on the test, but if you keep in mind the way your ideal match would answer these questions, that may lead you to tweak your answers a little and bring you a different type of match).

    Another thing is that eH is always updating their personality test so if you took it a while ago, there are probably some questions in their new test you haven’t answered and once you retake the test, you may very well get more matches because they have more complete answers from you. Does that make sense?

    I’m not an authority on eH by any means, but I’ve been on it for several years and at one point, I played with my settings quite a bit and set up several accounts, each with a personality test that I had tweaked a little to stress certain sides of my personality more than others. Of course, I couldn’t actually keep 5 accounts open at one time, so I did shut all but 1 down, but it gave me the opportunity to explore their matching system a bit (I did it during one of their ‘free communication’ wknds) and I think I’ve finally got a profile that works pretty well for me. Most of the men I’m matched with are successful, at least somewhat in shape and confident — all things that were important to me. I’m still not attracted to most of my matches, but I find about 10% somewhat appealing and I currently am communicating with about 5 men, all of whom are attractive and successful.

    You can just email or call eH and tell them you feel you’ve changed a bit since you last took the personality test and ask if you can take it again. Good luck!

  37.  #37Renee on July 26, 2010 at 6:17 am

    Sweetpea — I feel intereted in finding out more about what you feel is triggering your old behavior with this man and how you’re going to go about trying to keep your heart open despite the challenge of the situation.

    I too struggle with keeping my heart open, even on a first date (or first phone call) and I’d like to hear how others who are struggling with the old habit of being closed off and numb are dealing with it.

    Last night, for example, I got a first phone call from a guy I met on Match who seems to be a genuinely nice guy and so far, appears to be the kind who will step up. (I kind of blew him off twice while were were emailing (I was making some snap judgements about him that were unfair) and both times, he wrote again after I backed off, which shows me he’s probably willing to do the pursuing). Anyway, when he called, I continued to multi-task while we were on the phone — actually drove to the store while we were talking and bought some chicken salad and drove home and made a sandwich, all while we were chatting. I know there’s no way I truly had my heart open to him during this time, but I seem to have a hard time NOT muti-tasking when I’m on the phone.

    He still seems very interested and that’s great, but I want to do better and be different with the men I’m dating now and am seeking guidance on how to keep my heart open. When I was on a date with the pilot Saturday, we went for a walk and I realized I was being somewhat closed, so I quickly came up with a mental image of me pulling open everything resting on top of my heart and physically having it open to the world. I feel that helped a little, but I still have so far to come…

    What, specifically, are you doing to work on this issue, if I might ask?

  38.  #38Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:45 am

    Hi Renee,

    First I’d like to say that I am enjoying your posts on here. I’ve been on the sidelines somewhat lately, just reading & not commenting a lot, but I like what I’m seeing here.

    I’m not sure that I’m the person to ask about staying open. I’m really struggling with it right now. The only thing I’m doing is being aware of it & I’m not running away. I’m just staying aware & practicing opening up again when I notice I’m shutting down. I’m hoping that in time it will become easier – more of a habit. And I took some time for myself this past week. That seems to have helped as I used some feeling messages last night to address the biggest issue that’s been bugging me & he was very receptive. So it’s just baby steps for me right now.

    As for the phone issue, I’m the same way as you describe – multi-tasker. When I’m on the phone, I just keep making myself sit still & really listen.

    Perhaps some of the other sirens can help us both out with this.

  39.  #39Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 8:23 am

    The phone – hmmmmm…..I don’t feel comfortable using the phone as a means of establishing or building a relationship. It is a surprise to me that a man would want to use the phone – most men I know use the phone for a specific purpose: call to arrange something. And when I get a phone call, I move quite quickly to making arrangements to meet.

    One of the oddest calls I had was with a fellow who actually said: oh you sound reasonable enough, so why don’t you call me and we can see if I am available for a date.

    I could barely believe my ears – we were already on the phone! Needless to say, I never called him back.

    The phone is a true interruption with the assumption that I have the time to just drop everything and chitchat with you. That doesn’t feel respectful to me.

    So here are some of the things I say:

    “I am looking forward to meeting you! Right now I am caught in the middle of something that I must attend to so I am happy to take a moment and schedule something – what works for you?”

    I dont have any problem leading forward in these circumstances as they called me to begin with so clearly they want something. If I called them, I am equally respectful so I do variations and combination of the following:

    “Hi, this is Lizzie, from POF or whereever, you sent me your number so I am following-up,

    I am sure I have caught you quite by surprise

    I am sure you are quite busy and I don’t want to take up a lot of time right now

    are you free for a moment to speak?

    I am sure you have a day filled with many other things so I won’t keep you too long

    I am looking forward to meeting you, shall we set aside some time in the next few days?

    That is the kind of thing I do. I really don’t want any convos on the phone.

  40.  #40Tmizz on July 26, 2010 at 9:03 am

    Thanks for all the support – I love the image of the butterfly!


    I support your first instinct. You said this was either a chance to walk away, or to stay and learn. I say if walking away was your first instinct, I say go with that. You don’t have to stay and “learn” that you were right – that this is a guy who is capable of hurting you deeply, and and the end you will likely feel that you should have walked away in the beginning.

    At the same time, I’m familiar with that second-guessing that comes up and says, “Hey, what if my instinct is wrong? What if I really need to try and make it work this time?” I know, because I was just recently in a situation like that. I had a bad-ish feeling about a guy (not all bad, just kind of “eh” like it wouldn’t work.) I went out with him anyway. We had a great first date. And after that it was all downhill. I got myself hurt, and blamed myself for being the instigator. I did “learn” something – but I didn’t heal the old wounds with this person, because this person was not ABLE to help me heal. And I saw that. I saw that loud and clear. I tried to “explain” (to no avail). I had wanted to leave him anyway, and in the end, he left me. I got hurt. But in the end, I really just knew that I have an instinct that can be trusted!

    So what I’m trying to say is, listen to how you feel. You wrote, “I felt my sparkle fall off me like pieces of glitter falling onto the table and floor.” That is beautiful, poetic, and true. To me, that says, without a doubt, this guy is not right for you. Had he told you the same story in a way that inspired your confidence, you would have stayed right with him, you would have stayed sparkly, and you’d be looking forward to your second date right now! But instead, you’ve agreed to it, but you are secretly hoping that it never comes. So don’t go. Tell him you can’t make it. Don’t return his phone calls. This man does not need you anymore than you need him. And you don’t need to give him any “feeling messages.” You need to give YOURSELF a feeling message – which is, you don’t feel right about this guy. He doesn’t need to know how you feel! He’s not your BF yet (perhaps he won’t be), and he doesn’t need ANY explanation for your actions. They won’t help him. Or you.

    What you can do is, learn from what your body is telling you, walk away, and get ready for your next date with a different guy – who might actually make you feel safe, secure and loved! Instead of charming you and disarming you with “honesty.”

    Good luck!

  41.  #41LeLe on July 26, 2010 at 9:34 am

    Any reader who says you are cursed is a user. Do not trust them and do not go back to them! A true sensative will not pull this – even if it true. They can tell you something of what is going on and shadows of the possibilities. Always know that you are the center of your path. Certain things are destined to happen to you – as they are with all people, but the rest is up to you. This is from someone who has known and is a sensative.

  42.  #42Jacqueline on July 26, 2010 at 9:41 am

    Lucy – I feel funny posting because you are on here asking opinions and then feeling mad at what people say, like I’m afraid to have an opinion on here because it’s not agreeing with everyone/anyone else.

    Tmizz – love the charming and disarming word play, that is the “game” in on line dating hmmm? Most on line dates or phone calls are just play to men, I think. And good for you if you multitask on the phone, I agree on a first date situation the phone is just for seeing if you have enough in common to date, and then making that date. Course, I think they might be on the phone seeing how likely you are to sleep with them? lol…..

    I always kept my time investment to a minimum and often had lunch at places like McDonald’s or just coffee only – where they would have to pay and there could be no hard feelings about it, since it was cheap. Or I would go to the same local bistro where the people knew me and could see the “new” man. Only about 5 out of a hundred were super attractive – I think super attractive probably just meet people in person, actually. So, on line, it’s more about whether you could kiss them without feeling ugh’d out and being open to guys who aren’t “perfect.” I don’t think the problem’s that they are not cute enough, maybe that chemistry is remarkably hard to come by. I’d really opened my parameters about what physically I would find attractive – they couldn’t be shorter than me! ha….but even just as tall – 5’8″, which was a real change from every man being over 6′.

    I wasn’t looking for marriage, so I didn’t judge a man by whether he would be marriage material; I was looking for that chemistry and less high drama, anger and charisma – in other words, going against my type to see where that lead. I agree it’s a great classroom! but I more agree that you need to be circular dating so the one guy who dissapoints you isn’t the one that also has to be disected for WHY he showed up. I love the wheel analogy, and that there’s always another one a day or two away.

    Any man can be toxic, the never marrieds as well. They never had affairs but then….they never marry anyone. It’s fun and frustrating and sometimes I just needed a break, but I kept at it for about 2 years – and good luck to all you who are doing so as well!


  43.  #43Jacqueline on July 26, 2010 at 10:10 am

    Oh, wow…totally forgot Rori’s topic! I don’t believe in predestination, predetermination or infallability. I’ve known a lot of psychics. A few seemed to have a definite sense that is not available to the ordinary person, a couple I thought maybe a direct line to God, or at least were singled out as a messenger of God….but since free will is the trump card in our existence all anyone can ever tell us is based on probabilities. If you continue to look for men in relationship to “x” you will get “y” and such. Curses are tools for manipulation and to me don’t exist, if you believed they existed for you….they would but you could still undo it.

    Curses are much more interesting in fairly tales – they can’t be undone, but the tale itself is a teaching tool and needs an insurmountable obstacle or hardship. I’ve been reading stuff about fairy tales, Jung, etc. this summer – they’re fascinating! Bruno Bettelheim is easy to read, yet deep into the psyche.

    Tarot cards show pictures of a journey that the individual may – must? make to self individuate; and we read that to figure out what’s around the corner? Even IF we knew, then we’d just change our actions to change the outcome, right? So, we just change our actions to change the outcome anyway – that’s what works!

    So, messages come from all over, we listen, we ignore, we change, we react, we act – how boring it would be without messages and messengers!

    A really interesting conundrum is if God knows the future? Cuz that’s how most religions teach. In theology class they ended my big arguement against predestination by saying God knows things concurrent to when we decide them, thereby still maintaining knowledge of the “future.”

    This stuff fascinates me, hope more people talk about it!

  44.  #44Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 10:18 am


    All throughout the Old Testament, which is historical fact, you see prophesies and then prophesies coming true. I don’t need to look any further than that to know that God knows the future.

    At the same time, I totally agree we have free will. I believe God knows what we are going to choose, like looking in the back of a book to see the ending before reading the book.

  45.  #45Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Jlina — I feel weird and confused reading your comment: “Lucy – I feel funny posting because you are on here asking opinions and then feeling mad at what people say, like I’m afraid to have an opinion on here because it’s not agreeing with everyone/anyone else.”

    It feels weird to me to expect that people’s opinions will never trigger another person — even when that person asked for input.

    My anger is not AT the people who are trying to help me — the anger is part of the trigger around the issue of infidelity. That’s how this works, Jlina. We process through our triggers.

    Your words — “I’m afraid to have an opinion on here because it’s not agreeing with everyone/anyone else.” — sound like you are being triggered. I feel glad that you expressed your fear because that is a great step when working with triggers.

    I sometimes feel that same fear on here, and when I do, I make a decision — is it worth expressing my ideas about this particular situation even though I fear it might upset the person — or is it not worth it — on a case by case basis.

    When I can identify that my intention is TRULY to help the other person (e.g., the last thing I wrote to Siena, which I felt a bit afraid to write), I go ahead and bite the bullet and hope we will work through any bad feelings that come up.

    On the other hand, if I realize that my intention is less than noble (e.g. to get on a soapbox, show off, or if my so-called opinion is really ME being triggered by the other person, or that my words will not truly be helpful), then I refrain from writing. (Usually! Sometimes I deceive myself about my intentions, and sometimes I feel too triggered to refrain. But I am getting better at feeling my feelings and choosing my words.)

    Does this make sense?


  46.  #46Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 10:31 am

    I feel emotionally unsafe on Siren Island when I express any part of my middle that is not yet up to speed on working Rori’s programs and is still damaged.

    Here is an analogy to express my frustration:

    In 1997, I was with a hard-core alcoholic, one of my many unhealthy relationships (a reflection of my poor self-esteem). He went to 5 rehabs in the 6 months I was with him.

    One of the rehabs was within walking distance of his home, and he was excited to get help, as was I excited for him. We arrived in the morning, and no one was around, so we sat on a porch swing until someone appeared. The director arrived shortly, and almost as soon as we began talking with him, he flipped into rage.

    “What are you doing here? I smell alcohol on your breath! You are not going to come in here and disrupt my rehab! Get out! Get off my property before I call the police!”

    We briefly tried to reason with him that, yes, that is WHY he was there. He had an addiction to alcohol! Please, help him! He is here for help!”

    But the director just ranted on and on, shouting at us to leave. A few months later, he was dead from advanced stage liver disease. 🙁

    Siren Island is a rehab, if you will, for wounded women, like me, who are recovering from addiction to unhealthy relationships.

    I need you all, and I have felt very supported and cared for, 99% of the time. I have felt kicked and harshed on several times by perhaps 1% who see my wounds and my emotional limp and snap out in anger and disgust.

    I am asking myself if a public blog is the place for rehab, which is very healing at times, or if it is too big of a risk, like being yelled at for having an issue.

    I feel hurt that I don’t feel safe to show my wounds. I feel compelled to be plastic and pretend that everything is fine. Parts of me are fine, while other parts are healing and remodelling inside at a rapid rate. But it feels unsafe like nothing short of perfection is fast enough for me to bare my heart.

    How do you all feel about that? Dare I pull back the bandage that is hiding all the pussy, infected wounds of severe emotional abuse from my past?

  47.  #47Jacqueline on July 26, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Thanks yall! That book analogy is a good one, Brenda and I’ve heard it before …..but I think God shapes us and then lets us choose. Lucy – I don’t know about triggers in the RR sense, only in life – so the more you want to tell me about them, the better. thanks. I was an apartment manager for 20 years and pretty much everyone thinks your job is to listen to them yell at you for all sorts of reasons- like because they can and they had a bad day!, and I hated that. So, anything I can learn here about not being afraid of other peoples intense feelings or angers, the better. It’s why I’m here even when it’s uncomfortable for me. And I like the feeling messages, but in a way, I think if you say I feel….it pretty much is a way of controlling how someone can respond to you. I mean no one can say you’re wrong then. So, I’m here to see why feeling messages are better, how to pull people in, how stopping washing the dishes and going and doing something fun acutally works – cuz dang! won’t those dishes still just be there?!… I’m open to all of it that makes me feel better for sure!

  48.  #48Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 10:35 am

    That came out weird…let’s try “puss-filled, infected wounds…”

  49.  #49Jacqueline on July 26, 2010 at 10:38 am

    Brenda – when you speak, I hear strength, not woundedness. Wounding things have happened to you, that’s probably obvious for everyone on here – for them as well as for us. But as I just said, I feel the same when I know it’s not RR way, but it is my experience/feeling. And about the public blog, thing, too. If people strike out at you, I really think that’s them, because you don’t come across as walking wounded at all. You come across as grounded, sane and someone you could lean on, flawed like we all are, but still a great person. Just through the eyes of someone new here…don’t stop, and don’t stop being you!

  50.  #50Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 10:41 am

    I don’t mind ppl expressing opinions that upset me — I can work through it. Other opinions help me consider different perceptions and possibilities and then feel my way through. It’s all good. 🙂

  51.  #51Renee on July 26, 2010 at 10:41 am

    Lizzie — I feel somewhat triggered by your post about the phone not being a good way to start a relationship. I say, if you can’t work up a decent conversation with me the first time you call me, I don’t want to bother with a date.

    Online dating definitely has a different process than dating that starts with an in person meeting and I find most people I’ve met online want to use the first phone call to see if their personalities mesh enough to actually meet in person.

    The guy who called me last night seemed anything but rude or presumptuous — he had asked me when would be a good time to call and I told him. He seems sweet and interested in meeting me in person, but I wouldn’t have agreed to just meet him out of the blue if we hadn’t been able to talk on the phone first…I tried that exactly 1 time and the guy I met ended up having a speech impediment (on top of just being generally uncomfortable in social situations) and if I would have “vetted” him properly (as I do most dates) I probably would have discovered that on the phone and not wasted my time.

  52.  #52Siena on July 26, 2010 at 10:44 am

    Brenda, I laughed at your correction…!

    I feel unsafe on here sometimes too, but for me it’s because I’m talking about things that I don’t talk to anyone else about, and so it’s more about me airing the things that are embarrassing and that I see as defeats, and less about this space here.

    I have a feeling that it’s just triggers, and the more I expose them, the less they will hurt. Maybe it’s the same for you?

    We all judge – it’s part of human nature (unfortunately). The key is to know that people are going to judge no matter what/who I am, and to be happy with myself anyway. I can’t control what others think or what they do, but I can control how I think about myself and what I do.

  53.  #53Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Jacqueline- thanks so much for what you wrote to Brenda! I have shared a couple meals with her in person, and what you wrote is absolutely true: she is “grounded, sane and someone you could lean on, flawed like we all are, but still a great person.”


  54.  #54Siena on July 26, 2010 at 10:48 am

    I feel a heavy dullness in my pelvis, and like all thoughts have gone out of my brain.

    This is the epitome of “letting go”.

    I see the train coming into the station, and I feel exhausted and ready to get on the train. I ran to the station, and am now out of breath and fatigued, and can’t go any further. The best I can do is wait for the train, and then get on it when it arrives.

    I see it pulling into the station, so there’s no doubt that I’ll be on it soon. But in the meantime, all I can do is sit here and rest.

  55.  #55Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Hi Siena — I felt very glad to read on the other thread that you are being gentle with yourself. What I picked up on was so small and tiny that I am SURE it was nowhere near what you used to do/be. I feel confident (without knowing all the details) that you have made great strides as a Siren. <3

  56.  #56Nikita on July 26, 2010 at 10:54 am


    When I read about your date my feeling was simply; wow, this guy is not over his divorce yet and is still nursing a slight. If he was talking about an ex on a first date he’s not over his ex, that goes for any guy. Unless I ask you directly what happened I do not want to bring ghosts on the date with us. Next…..sounds like this fish has some more work to do in the sea ….moving right along….

  57.  #57Siena on July 26, 2010 at 10:58 am

    Does anyone ever get over a divorce? I mean, I’ve known people very close to me who are TOTALLY over the person they divorced, and have happily moved on and started new families… but there’s still a shadow of divorce that they deal with all the time.

    I imagine it would take decades to exorcise the divorce demons totally…

  58.  #58Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Thanks everyone for your continued input. Today I got this email from garden guy:

    Dear Lucy,

    Well, I could tell you (as your past date did) that I want to marry you! But I won’t (lol!).

    What I want to tell you is that…I really enjoyed meeting you! You have a very interesting way about you. A compassionate, sweet, soft touch, coupled with a caring and loving attitude towards life…all mixed in with an attractive and intelligent woman! Your very strong dedication, passion and love for your children and their upbringing was also quite evident. That is very important to me (as I have a similar attitude towards my two boys). I had a glimpse into what you stated in an earlier email: “Love — in all its messy glory and endless forms — is what makes me tick.”

    All of this leaves me with a strong desire to want to see you again…and I sincerely hope you want to see me again.

    Hope you have a great Monday! J


    One of you girls mentioned being turned off by his “charm.” That’s interesting to notice. He doesn’t have the cocky, charismatic, magnetic charm of TN man (who totally reminds me of that Neal Caffrey character on White Collar!) but he DOES have this mild-mannered, quiet, unassuming, “everybody and their mother loves me” charm — which is exactly what my ex-h had. Hmmm.

    The positive things he has that my ex didn’t — high intelligence/college education/white collar job.

    Of course it feels great to have someone be so into you and excited about you. My ex was like that too. Met in October, talked about marriage within a couple weeks, engaged in December, married in June — and I didn’t even touch an “oar.”

  59.  #59Nikita on July 26, 2010 at 11:09 am

    My parents are divorced, they’re fine. They split amicably. I’m the only child so I was affected by it but they’ve moved on and only seem to feel sad to a degree that I didn’t get certain things and advantages of a united family. But even that took years for them to figure out. Everyone is different but I choose to create relationships with people who stay in the present instead of dragging around their past like a corpse to dinner.

  60.  #60Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 11:12 am

    Nikita, the interesting thing is, he went through — and RAVED — about that popular divorceCare program — and is now a facilitator for it. It’s all about healing, moving on, (or actually reconciling with the spouse if possible).

    Several years ago I went to the first session of that program and didn’t like it at all, never went back.

    Siena, I agree. No matter how much healing you do, there are still permanent effects from a divorce. Just things like, you will probably always have to be involved somewhat with each other if you have kids, grandkids, etc. It’s sad. Also, I feel sad that I will never be able to celebrate a 50th anniversary. 🙁 You lose that whole fairytale of being with one spouse your whole life, looking back on when your babies were born, remember when….? etc.

    I have allowed myself to grieve all those losses and more, but it doesn’t change the fact that they are lost.

  61.  #61Nikita on July 26, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Divorce care?? Sounds like wound exchange story time.

    “victims of divorce”. Divorce is a legal thing…the relationship is the heart thing. I’d rename it “heartbreak hotel” byob 😉

    How can we feel empowered?…in your case I’d look at “listening to my intuition even at a crowded wedding ceremony to the possible dismay of our guests; because it is my truth and it grows louder with every beat of my heart and I can now completely trust myself and this trust feels empowering….so empowering I feel safe 100% of the time 🙂

  62.  #62Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 11:26 am

    Jennifer, I have only used eharmony on free weekends (which means I couldn’t see pictures at all!) But based on the written info, I would constantly say to myself (and my kids), “Their ‘scientific’ matching process is so bogus — why on earth do they think I’m a match for these guys? — they can’t even SPELL!”

    I did meet one guy in person from there, and it was a disaster (my first date post-divorce).

    But other people do well there. I also got tired of answering the same types of questions over and over. It became rote and boring.

    I am on match and pof. I am happy with the overall results of both. Pof has a bit more riff-raff to pick through, but also some great prospects. Winker Hottie is on pof. Garden Guy is on match.

  63.  #63Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Nikita, I really like this: “in your case I’d look at listening to my intuition even at a crowded wedding ceremony to the possible dismay of our guests; because it is my truth and it grows louder with every beat of my heart and I can now completely trust myself and this trust feels empowering….so empowering I feel safe 100% of the time :)”

    Right! I was NOT in that place of trusting myself and empowerment when I got married at age 24. But I am now . . . and this may be my chance to acknowledge and celebrate that. 🙂

  64.  #64tinque on July 26, 2010 at 11:49 am

    “1% who see my wounds and my emotional limp and snap out in anger and disgust. ”

    Bren – And anyone else who might feel this way. How about looking at this another way.
    This 1% of which you speak are not seeing your wounds and acting out in anger and/ore disgust. They are seeing there own wounds in you, and it frightens them.
    Or they are seeing in you what their wounds once were, and the memory is still fresh, so they fear revisiting that wound.
    So my dear it’s never about you. It’s about them.

  65.  #65tinque on July 26, 2010 at 11:53 am

    As for divorce wounds Siena, I can attest to having none. I am happily divorced from a life to which I once had come very close to being resigned.
    There are no children involved, so this made my break easier of course. There is no residue, no regrets, nothing but gratitude and joy.

  66.  #66Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Oh, Tinque, that’s so true! I was just saying that about ME to Brenda the other day — that I felt annoyed and angry at someone but I knew it was because she reminded me of how *I* used to be, and I still felt yucky about that earlier version of myself. It’s so great when we can be aware of that! So glad you pointed it out!

  67.  #67tinque on July 26, 2010 at 11:56 am

    sorry about the typos. really upsets my english major esthetics.

  68.  #68Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Tinque, if you have been following my story about garden guy, I would appreciate hearing your point of view (even if it might upset me 🙂 )

  69.  #69tinque on July 26, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Lucy – I’m sorry I did read about him, but I’m not recalling the details. I’ve just read too much over the weekend. Would you mind giving me a synopsis.

  70.  #70tinque on July 26, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Okay never mind, I just found the crucial post above. Give me a minute to compose my thoughts.

  71.  #71Jennifer on July 26, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    OH FOR THE LOVE OF PETE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I unhid my profile on POF. I saw a guy who looked cool…he has a pic of him in a tux doing the “james bond holding a gun” pose. I thought it was funny so I messaged him. I told him it felt like he was having agreat time..where was it taken.
    On his honeymoon on a carribean cruise….
    “on a carribean cruise” would have sufficed.
    For Pete’s sake.

  72.  #72tinque on July 26, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    Lucy – Okay my first thoughts about all he said to you though lovely and I’m sure felt wonderful to hear, seemed over the top for a first date. It could all have been sincere, yet I get a sense of a player at work here. It’s too good if that makes sense, too beautifully, perfectly put.
    The story about his divorce gives me major chills. I am far from a prude as most of you know, but my philosophy is this: finish old business before starting new. In my opinion there is NEVER a good reason for infidelity.
    If what he said about his ex is true, then why not open a discussion or ask to see a couple’s counselor. If all attempts fail, and he’s still unhappy, then file for a divorce and move out.
    I don’t have a problem with a married person sleeping with someone else AS LONG AS the divorce is in process, and they are not still living together.
    Cheating is not okay.
    I would hesitate to date a former cheater. I don’t believe once a cheater always a cheater, but it would give me pause. It would arouse trust issues in me, and since this is a biggie for me, I would likely pass. But this is ME.

  73.  #73Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 12:37 pm


    I appreciate what you said about the 1%. I think you are right overall. I am not able to see it objectively because of still struggling with a poor self-esteem.

    I was raised in a lower class home with overweight parents who had debt. Our family had a stigma, and we at times referred to ourselves as the LastName Failures. We sensed people looked down on us, and we’d jokingly say to each other about the way people regarded us, “Oh, no, here come the LastName Failures!”

    My brothers and I have struggled with that image all our lives. One brother returned to our childhood town and repaid all my father’s debt. My other brother put a huge (judgmental) emphasis on being RESPONSIBLE, unlike my father. For about 3 years in the recent past, my mother had a missing front tooth. My brother’s were embarrassed to be seen in public with her. Not only is she overweight, in a wheelchair, and on oxygen, but she had a broken tooth. One of my brothers paid last year the several thousand dollars it cost to make her a partial plate so she could have a full set of teeth again. My brothers practically worship their reputations.

    On the other hand, I’ve had my face rubbed in the mud since childhood, over and over. I’ve gone through stuff that I never imagined I would, such as homelessness. I have very little pride left, and I don’t know if where I’m at is healthy humility or unhealthy shamelessness. I honestly feel confused in that area.

    So when I feel attacked, I try to see if the criticism has merit, even if it’s given unkindly. But when I feel attacked and completely misunderstood, I feel deeply hurt, because my inner wounds are still so raw. I’m not yet strong enough to rise above it and say it’s about them, not me. I feel fragile inside, and if I am strong, yes, parts of me are strong. But the part that I bared last week on here was my heart of hearts, and when you touch it, it makes me cry.

    I’ve done a lot of crying this past week.

  74.  #74Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Tinque, thank you so much for taking the time to share your perspective. Practically every word you wrote is exactly how I feel/think/believe.

    Your use of the word “player” felt interesting to me. Neither he nor my ex are “classic” players, but my ex was definitely a “soft-core” player, and it feels like perhaps this guy is as well. I don’t know if that distinction makes any sense to anyone but me! 🙂 Regardless, I definitely DON’T WANT even a soft-core player like my ex!!!!!!

    The only thing that makes me even consider giving him a chance is my self-image of being a compassionate, caring, open, forgiving person. It feels like what I “should” do.

    And that rings of EGO.

    An old pattern of protecting my self-image instead of mySELF.

    And! THAT’S why he likes me!!! He even described me that way, as did my ex-h! They like that about me because they know they can tug on my guilt-strings if I feel or act uncompassionate, unforgiving, closed off, uncaring. My ex-h thought I was the perfect girl to cheat on, for that reason. (He didn’t realize I also had hidden strength and resolve up my sleeve!)

    So this is a great new awareness of a self-destructive part of my ego! Yay! Another message/mirror from garden guy!

    Heartfelt thanks to ALL of you Sirens who helped me process this!!! It means a lot!

  75.  #75Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 12:52 pm


    So how are you going to respond to his email? Sounds like you are getting some good growth out of this!

  76.  #76Daria on July 26, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    I feel defensive.

    I feel like rolling my eyes. I feel closed off… I feel cold small and far off. I feel unloved.

    I feel manipulated… I feel dragged on. I feel my energy pulled on. I feel angry. I feel unsafe. I feel resentful.

    I feel sulky and to myself and stone cold. I feel walled off on my heart energy.

    I don’t want to feel this way.

    I feel too angry to let myself feel – thank you. I love my feelings. I love my anger. I love my fear. I love my sadness.

  77.  #77Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Brenda, I don’t know yet. I’m not in a hurry. My intent will be to be honest and open — and kind. 🙂 I’ll keep you posted.

  78.  #78Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Yes, I LOVE getting growth out of these CD’s!!!!!

  79.  #79Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    On a lighter note, I am having so much FUN trying to OUTGIRL two guys from pof whom I have yet to meet after several weeks of contact!!!

    One of them — I forget what I named him on here — I don’t care at ALL about the outcome — am not really interested in him — but am enjoying the practice in outgirling. I had such a funny convo with my 20 y o son about this guy. I showed my son our emails and my son laughed and said, “Uh, yeah, NO. He’s too . . . ”

    I filled in the blank, “feminine energy?”

    My son laughed. “Something like that! I didn’t know what to call it. Like a sissy boy who is afraid to take charge.”

    It felt cool that my son recognized that!

    The OTHER guy I’m trying to outgirl is Winker Hottie!!! I DO care about the outcome there — I like him a LOT. The problem with him is that he’s the type that girls throw themselves at, so he’s used to girls asking HIM out! EWww!! He doesn’t know what to do with me cuz I’m not doing that!! It’s kinda funny. Last night in a text convo where I mentioned i had two dates this weekend, and he said he did too, then he said, “Some day you’ll realize you should date [winker hottie] in DE.”

    As if I haven’t realized that already!!!! Man up, WH!!!!

  80.  #80Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 1:28 pm


    How did you respond to WH’s comment? 🙂

  81.  #81Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    I finally decided to contact the 62 year old. He is twice Ryan’s age. I highly, highly doubt this will be anything more than a date, or a friendship at most. I am going for the experience and free therapy. We had a few brief emails and we are meeting Wed. I feel zero enthusiasm. I am CDing this one by an act of my will.

  82.  #82Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    Every healthy relationship has disagreements.

  83.  #83Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    Brenda, I feel glad you are going for free therapy with 62! I hope and pray that you will have an enjoyable time and learn something great!

    To what did your comment #82 refer?

    WH — My first impulse was to shoot back, “Some day you’ll realize you should date Lucy in PA.” And while that’s kinda cute and fun and flirty, I realized it would also be keeping the masc-fem energy static and equal between us. Sooooo, I went with a feminine feeling message:

    “That would feel exciting and fun!”

    I haven’t heard back from him yet, but I feel confident that I will — at some point. He’s learning to be a man. Hehe.

  84.  #84Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 2:05 pm


    Good job on the feeling message back to WH! Upbeat and positive.

    It refers to whoever may find it valuable.

  85.  #85Brenda on July 26, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    Let she who is without sin cast the first stone.

  86.  #86tinque on July 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    Brenda – I think we all struggle with self-esteem to one degree or another at one time or another.
    I don’t want you to use this as an excuse. We all have our stories.
    It’s okay to feel hurt when you feel attacked. And if you are being overly sensitive, so what. Feel that hurt. BUT remember what’s been talked about here. Summon that up. Know even is only intellectually, if if it’s only a glimmer of a thought that this isn’t about you.
    Eventually you will start to own it, bit by bit. You may always feel a twinge when you feel attacked, but you don’t have to let it sink you down into a pit. You will be able put it into proper perspective more quickly.

  87.  #87Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    The latest bit of my ongoing outgirling texting with dude (keep in mind I have yet to meet this guy in person and this has been going on for a few weeks!!):

    Him: I haven’t taken you to [restaurant] yet.
    Me: I feel interested in eating there since I’ve never been.
    Him: I told you before your vacation that I would take you there.
    Me: That would feel fun. 🙂
    Him: That would be awesome.

  88.  #88Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    He lives near Brenda — about an hour from me.

  89.  #89Melb(a) Lynne on July 26, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Lucy, not sure where you up up to with garden guy, but the story has triggered something in me & without wanting to appear negative, a cheater chooses that path… some guys can go without sex & stay close to their wife/partner, and it can even initiate change/ counselling in the marriage PRIOR to the (perceived) NEED by the Guy ‘to cheat’… That is a Choice, not a Need, they can satisfy any physical need themselves (if they have to)… if they want Emotional stuff (that’s where Talking to their Spouse could happen)…
    Not ‘giving a husband/partner sex’ is never a Reason, (maybe an Excuse by an immature guy) for ‘cheating’… In a marriage 2 parties need to be ‘working together’ as a team, when that not happening the ‘ideal’ would be that Both Parties pick up their end so to speak… (& their responsibility for the marriage not ‘working as well as it could’) & do what’s required to ‘bring back the love/care etc’ into relship…. if BOTH Wanting & ABLE to do that….
    I had the issue in my 2nd marriage – very devestating to me… & lingered for years… as husband didn’t ‘help’ me to recover (which is what I DID NEED at that time from him)…
    I then met a ‘lovely’ guy (after separation) on rsvp dating site… a very ‘evolved guy’ so into ‘self development’ & ‘self analysis for change’ that he was considering starting a business as type of ‘life coach’… anyway his ‘learning’ was to be ‘open’ with women/partner, so he was open (on 1st date) re his cheating on his 1st wife…
    My feeling on the matter, although he’s acknowledged, willing/desiring to change & aware of his ‘part’ in the ‘cheating’, I don’t believe he Truely Understood (it was like 15 years ago) the impact his cheating had had on his 1st wife… & this was/is a Very Evolved/Aware (now) type guy… (I dated him for 4mths so got to know him pretty well)..
    When i consider ‘change’ in people’s choices of behaviour, I look at how Difficult it Has Been For Me to implement Change/s that I Really Really Want to Implement (eg Rori’s stuff & other things I’m doing..) and then consider 1. How Much Does This Guy REALLY Want to Change? (change is HARD).. & 2. How Much Does He Understand About his Self/his subconscious Motivations/Needs? & thus 3. How ABLE is He to Actually Continue to Implement These Changes (though the Difficult/Stressful Times that inevitably occur in Life)….???
    The ‘lack of sex’ is not ‘The Reason’ for ‘cheating’, cheating is some guys ‘way’ of dealing with ‘stress’, like ‘alcohol’, ‘gambling’ etc… any thing TO DO, that makes the person ‘feel better’ when they ‘feel bad’ (for whatever the reason may be, whatever type of ‘bad’ the feeling is…)…..
    I think the answers to these questions are Vital to gain some type of perspective on a Person’s Ability To Change (behaviours that have been chosen in the past to ‘help get through’ a stressful situation/s)…
    I don’t know if this helps, hopefully just another perspective (& really not wanting to be ‘negative’, is simply my beliefs around People & Change)……
    Or if it’s just ‘my trigger/s’ speaking…

  90.  #90Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Oh! This is interesting! He just wrote:

    “So… Very often you relate how you “feel” and that makes me feel curious. 🙂 Do you do that all the time or just online where it’s hard to express emotions?”

    Hmm. I don’t know quite how to answer that! That’s new territory for me!

  91.  #91Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    Just to clarify, “dude” is the other guy, not winker hottie. 🙂

  92.  #92Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Melba, thanks so much for sharing your perspective! I agree with you — very insightful. Thank you.

  93.  #93Siena on July 26, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Hehe Lucy, I’ve gotten something like that before.

    I would laugh it off, “LOL, I guess I’m just a heart-centered woman!”

    Or, “it’s just the way I authentically express myself.”

    Or… “I feel good that you feel curious… But I’m not gonna give up ALL my secrets before our first date {wink}”

  94.  #94Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    Thanks, Siena! Can you believe the dialogue (#87)?!!!!

    How hard is it to say, “Are you free friday to go to the restaurant with me?”

    !!!!!! Really!!!!!

    I’ll be an old lady by the time I outgirl this guy!

  95.  #95Melb(a) Lynne on July 26, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    ps Lucy, i have a 20 year old son as well (& 22 yr old daughter)… and right now, after 2 divorces I may sound harsh, in terms of ‘not wanting to accept’ someone with ‘admitted cheating’ in their past [which is better than non-admitted tho!!], but I think it’s more that having suffered the efffects of 2 ‘difficult’ [for different reasons] marriages and 2 ‘horrible’ [for different reasons] divorces and still trying to deal with the incredible toll that all that has taken on my health (I have chronic fatigue syndrome, [15 years now] chronic migraines, chronic insomnia, & other very difficult to manage ailments – I used to be a ‘fit, healthy, sporty, active’ person,…)… I think it’s just that I’m Definite Now that my next (Fantastic, Amazing, Supportive, Loving, Giving, Committed, Adoring & Loyal lol!!! :-)) partner… Is Going To Be a Person Who’s Good 4 Me… as compared to 2 Toxic Guys, my husbands, (where, even tho having my own faults!!) I was clearly way more ‘benefical to them’ (at My Own Expense)… than they were to me…. I Cannot Have That Again……………………. so I Have to Weed Out the Innappropriate Ones (b4 it’s too late for me & I ‘get hooked’ on them)…
    Does that make sense….. ??

  96.  #96Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    Any feedback on my potential response to garden guy? …..

    Hi J, it felt good to meet you, too. Thank you again for dinner, great conversation, and the flowers. I put the flowers in a glass of water on the living room window sill, and they look lovely — makes me happy to see them there in the sunshine. It also felt great to hear all those compliments you gave me (in your latest email as well)!

    I do feel interested in the possibility of seeing you again. I have to tell you, though, that I felt sad and disappointed hearing your story about your marriage and infidelity. While driving home, I also felt some anger about it. I like you a lot and feel attracted to you on several levels. However, I feel unsure about my ability to deal with the cheating. That makes me feel sad.

    What do you think?


  97.  #97Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    Siena, I answered the dude’s Q like this: “I don’t know. I’m sure I don’t do it ALL the time…”

    He replied: “I like it. It’s nice knowing how you feel. Emoticons just aren’t enough sometimes.”

    Lol. 😀

    But notice that he totally got off the subject of taking me to the restaurant!!!!

    How’s Frenchie doing these days???

  98.  #98Renee on July 26, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    I’m struggling with the shorty pilot…he just called to chat and I was on the phone with a client, but now I don’t know if I want to call him back because he’ll want to go out with me again and I’ve already determined he’s not “the one”…I realize this flies in the face of the whole CDing concept, but I’m having a hard time making myself want to go out with him when I know I’ll just end up breaking things off at some point.

  99.  #99Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Lucy totally enjoying hearing about you out girling the guy! I had a guy I emailed just like that! He kept saying I should come snuggle with him and I kept telling him I don’t go to a man’s house to meet him lol. He would say we should meet sometime then but NEVER ask me out! Finally, after about 3 months of it, I had asked how he was doing and he said, once again lol, I’d be better if you would come to my house and spoon with me, but we both know that will never happen. Don’t know why lol but I responded with, yeah, I’ve come to the conclusion you just want to email me and never meet! Long story short – we met the next night lol. Not sure if i was putting my boy hat on there or he just felt it was a challenge lol.

  100.  #100Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    That’s great, Sherry! How was the date? Did he stay in fem energy or what?

  101.  #101Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    LOL. Now he’s taking himself out to eat:

    “I’m off now. 😀 I don’t feel like cooking so I’m thinking Cracker Barrel is in order.”

    (That is not the restaurant he wants to take me to btw.)

  102.  #102Daria on July 26, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    In my personal experience, if i find myself feeling resentful about not getting asked out…

    i feel more feminine sharing…

    i used to just be quiet as my standard “leaning back”

    but now feel just as leaned back saying…

    ohhh this is feeling kinda bad…

    him: why?

    me: i’ve been feeling excited to meet you and now im feeling kinda weird and confused that it hasn’t happend… what do u think


    i feel kinda bad… i dont like emailing so much and would feel better to meet in person

  103.  #103Daria on July 26, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    like my girl self is sharing my emotion in the moment… which is feeling bad… and my truth…

    feels good… rather than me “head bashing him” to myself…

    i feel sad right now cuz one of my new guy friends that is just a friend, well he’s now acting resentful that he was paying for my food and now smoke…even tho part of the reason he had smoke and money too was that i got him a great deal…

    im feeling bad

    blah for icky feeling guys… and blah for “when are YOU gonna take me out” – blah… i don’t like that even in guy friends

  104.  #104Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Thanks for your input, Daria. I have done something similar with other guys when I have felt resentful. But in these two cases, I don’t feel bad about it. With the dude, I don’t care about going out with him anyway. With WH, I believe he’ll get there and at this point I just feel amused by his cuteness and it feels good to show him a way of being that is different from what he’s used to — aggressive, chasing-after-him women.

  105.  #105Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Lucy it was horrible!!! Lol a little background – the guy is 6’4″, 235 solid lbs, built like you would not believe, handsome, etc. He is 40, retired from the Marines as a Major after 22 yrs (signed up when he was 18), is a cop now, and been divorced for 9 years. Super cocky, funny, compliments, etc.

    The night before we meet he calls, after us talking online for 2 hours, and tells me he had met a woman the week before and she had told him that while his body was smokin hot (LMAO) his face looked older in person! He said it made him feel like shit, but he wanted me to know “just in case.” Then, when I was on the way there, he called and asked me should he wear a t-shirt or a long sleeve rolled up! I almost turned the car around then lol but I just replied I felt he should wear what makes him comfortable. (Daria would have had a kick ass feeling message for that one!) Then he makes a comment about he wishes he looked better! I don’t think I even responded to that one. I pull up and get out of my car as he’s getting out of his truck and we kinda meet in front of my car. He holds his arms out to the side and says what do you think? Here stood the most gorgeous hunk of man I’ve seen in a long time and he was still out girling me! I looked him up and down and smiled and said I see you chose the t-shirt! Again, wish I could do the feeling messages like Daria! Long story short he asked me 6 times during our 1 hour meet if I was disappointed! I was floored! I left after an hour and he emailed me the next day and said he felt bad I didn’t stay longer. I decided then it took too much effort and I didn’t want to spend the entire relationship making him feel good about himself. Notice he didn’t say anything about being glad to meet me or having fun, or HOW I LOOKED! It was all about him and needing me to stroke his ego! I kinda let it fade off after that!

  106.  #106Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    I have to admit, though, I did learn something from him. I feel my comment that spurred us finally meeting was a little too leaning forward, but it was a challenge to not “take charge” during the date. In email he was Mr. Macho, manly man, but in person he was the total opposite. I am so much a make things happen type of person and don’t do well waiting. It was a boring, often quiet date, but I did not lean forward one time!

  107.  #107Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    That feels interesting, Sherry. That’s why I am NOT going to help these guys along at all –except by being totally feminine and leaned back — I don’t want to hint or pout my way into a date with a man who’s not gonna man up on the date! I figure if I can outgirl him enough that he asks me out all on his own, he stands a better chance of doing the job when we meet. kwim?

  108.  #108Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Definately! I never realized how much I have my man hat on lol. I was always the leader, organizer, coach – one year I actually was even an umpire cuz no one else was stepping up! This has definately been a process for me and I love that you are writing it out on here.. it helps when I see how others are doing it.

  109.  #109Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 5:54 pm


    He wrote this long text of nothingness, and I responded with “I feel amused.”

    So, he asked, “Why do you feel amused?”

    I was stumped to explain, but while i was feeling my way through it, that Joni Mitchell song, The Circle Game, popped into my head. So i wrote:

    “I don’t know exactly. But a song just popped into my head that maybe will explain it to me. I don’t know many of the words so I’ll look it up.”

    I looked it up, then I wrote, “Joni Mitchell, The Circle Game. Kinda makes sense.”

  110.  #110Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    He’s googling it now.

  111.  #111Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    I’m going to put myself out here. I know I will probably hear some things that I don’t necessarily want to, but I would appreciate any feedback, good or bad, in this situation. I only ask that you try to be as gentle as possible, please,

    I’m feeling completely stuck. I moved out of state last Sept under the guise of having a $50,000/yr job, arranged by my friend, that never happened. I am of the opinion that she knew it wasn’t going to happen, but never told me because she’s been trying to get me to move here for 20 yrs. Anyway, I finally found a job last week. Yay!!! That I really like, but the pay is less than half of what I moved here for. I can’t find a place of my own on that, but I’ve been told it’s time for me to go (I’ve been staying w/ my friend all this time). And things here are really pretty horrible. I’ve not been able to CD for over a month now.

    When things first started going downhill, Steppin’ Up Man had mentioned having me move in w/ him and I was actually feeling happy & excited about it. But then he started talking about getting a different roommate and/or keeping the one he has until next Nov. I’ve been feeling annoyed & frustrated about it, but not using my feeling messages. I sensed that he was feeling me out to see if I was interested in moving in, but I had already told him I was & just kept letting the resentment build because he wasn’t actually coming out & asking & I didn’t feel comfortable bringing it up/was leaning back. So I had pretty much just decided to see if I could rent a room somewhere (not so easy to do with a dog, but not impossible) but last night, I finally had enough & told him when he mentioned putting up with the roomie, that I felt annoyed & didn’t want to argue about it but that I already told him how I felt a couple of weeks ago. So bow, we’re discussing my moving in again & I told him I feel concerned that it might mess things up, that maybe it’s moving too fast. He agreed that we should maybe take a little time to consider it, but he’s acting pretty excited about it & making plans now.

    I, On the other hand, am feeling like I may not be ready for this. I moved on to Plan B & am having trouble going back to Plan A. Plan A is definitely the better option though. Now that I’ve finally started using feeling messages & having open dialogue with him, I’m feeling better about Plan A again, but also really wanting to CD.

    I’m sure there is a lot more detail that is n
    needed here, but I think this is long enough for now. I just need some help sorting this all out.

  112.  #112Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    Tough one, Sweetpea. I don’t know what to tell you! I guess just feel your way, follow your gut….

    Have you talked to him about CDing? The no gf speech? Would it be possible to be roomies and still CD?

  113.  #113Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:15 pm


    Yes. This is the guy I told straight out I was going to keep dating casually until I have a ring on my finger. When he asked if it worked both ways, I simply told him, “no.” Lol. Even before it became impossible for me to CD, he was keeping me booked, so I really didn’t. Also the one who I told in my 2nd email to him that I felt hesitant to go out w/ him because he doesn’t want children & I do. He told me it’s not that he doesn’t want them, he can’t have them & if things go that deep, we can adopt. Calls me “Luscious.” Etc. There’s a reason I call him Steppin’ Up Man.

    And no. I wouldn’t feel at all comfortable CDing while living with him. Not in the sense that I am now. I might go out with the guys from work for happy hour or something (and I just met the new tech today. He’s a hottie & told me one of the other techs said I’m beautiful & he was right), but no more on-line CDing. Just the butcher, baker, candlestick maker variety.

  114.  #114Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    If he actually asked me to marry him, I don’t think I could handle it. Too scary right now & I don’t feel right telling him I’m dating until I’m married when I wouldn tactually marry him.

  115.  #115Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    So then you’re looking at being exclusive with him with no real commitment? Is that accurate?

  116.  #116Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:20 pm

    Can you tell him you’re dating until you are SURE about who you want to marry? So, if he asks you to marry him, you tell him you’re not sure if he’s the one….

  117.  #117Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    Maybe I could try that. I’m not actually sure he wants kids at all. He’s made a couple of comments that he’s glad he doesn’t have them. I’m not positive I want them either, but I know if I was with someone who did, I’d go for it. So, yeah. I suppose I could do that. It would feel awkward & difficult, but it’s an option.

  118.  #118Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    Yeah, you could at least talk it over with him that way and see what he thinks….

  119.  #119Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    Since I’m in feeling message & open dialogue mode, I say “in for a penny, in for a pound.” It can’t hurt to discuss it. I find it hard to believe he’ll like the idea, but I don’t have much to lose at this point. Can you imagine though, coming home & hearing, “so, honey… How was your date?” Lol.

    Maybe Rori could give me some feedback on how she handled that.

    Thanks for helping me process this, Lucy. Have you heard anything back from dude on the song? I’m not familiar w/ it. Maybe I should google it too.

  120.  #120Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    Yeah, he said, “Hmm, I’ll have to chew on that awhile.”

    I didn’t respond. 🙂

  121.  #121Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    Still would like input on my msg to garden guy (above) that I didn’t send yet, if anyone has anything to say about it. 🙂

  122.  #122Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:38 pm

    Lucy, I like the response to garden guy. Especially that you are telling him how you feel about the infidelity issue. So are you really going to go out with him again?

  123.  #123Siena on July 26, 2010 at 6:38 pm

    Lucy, I like your message to Garden Guy a lot! That’s about as honest as you (one) can get!!

  124.  #124Siena on July 26, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    PS Frenchie is way out of the picture. He stood me up twice! Not to the point where I was at a bar waiting for him, but twice he made plans to see me, and twice he never followed up.

    Then he texted me, “when are you free?”. I ignored it. No way buddy!

  125.  #125Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:44 pm


    I feel interested to know how things are going with #1CD.

    Also, I wanted to tell you how much I value your suggestions on here. I always look forward to hearing what you have to say. You treat everyone in such a soft, gentle, feminine manner. I really appreciate that about you.

  126.  #126Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    Lucy I really like the response to Garden Guy! Sienna I had a guy like that too. I gave him three chances, kept open 3 diff days that he never followed up on. I did the same after getting another I really want to meet you – just ignored it!

    Has anyone had a CD they really liked and thought there was a strong possibility with, but then was told he wasn’t sure what he wanted and asked if you can still talk? Still be “friends?”

  127.  #127Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:50 pm


    I really liked your explanation in #45 as well. I think I will follow your lead & question the nobility of my intentions when formulating any suggestions I have re: posts here.

  128.  #128Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    Hi Sweetpea – oh you are in a pickle.

    Please let me understand (in my head):
    1) you moved to a new city for a job that didn’t materialize
    2) you are living with the friend who said you would have this job that didn’t materialize, and now friend wants you to move out
    3) you stayed and looked for a new job and found one
    4) a new man entered the picture
    5) new man said come live with me
    6) you said yes
    7) you found a room to rent elsewhere but have decided to live with new man
    8) you are having second thoughts because you want to CD – you are unsure new man is “the one”
    8) you want our advice

  129.  #129Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    how come eight and nine turned into smiley faces? I hate smiley faces…

  130.  #130Siena on July 26, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    wow, thanks Sweetpea! I feel kinda teary-eyed reading your message to me!

    I haven’t heard anything from #1CD since a week ago Friday. Last I heard from him, he wrote me an email that he missed me.

    At this point, I figure he’s either gone forever or just deep in his cave. Nothing I can do can fix that or determine what the future holds, so I’ve put it away and am moving forward with the things that are in front of me to do (I’ve got plenty!)

    Thank you for asking about him! It really means a lot!

  131.  #131Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 6:57 pm


    Except for #s 6 & 7, yes. You understand perfectly. I haven’t found another room, but decided despite my dog, perhaps I could find one if need be. Difficult, but not impossible. Lots of potential for problems since my dog has separation anxiety & howls everytime I leave her, but still possible. And… I haven’t agreed to move in with him yet. I told him I feel hesitant that it might mess up a good thing by moving too fast. I do, however, feel it is my best option. He loves my dog, so no problems there as far as she goes.

  132.  #132Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:00 pm


    Aww… I feel teary-eyed reading your post. I feel he must be deep in his cave, and confident that you can move past this three month obstacle.


  133.  #133Siena on July 26, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    Sweetpea, if I were in your shoes, I would find a way to NOT move in with a CD… unless you just want to be friends or until he offers you a happily-ever-after.

    Here would be my reasons:

    1) CDing for me would be impossible if I was living there.
    2) If he expected me to pay for half the rent, it would be even worse! I would look at it as me helping HIM financially, and not vise versa.
    3) The mystery of getting to know me would go straight out the window.
    4) Rori says that the reason a man chooses happily ever after with a woman is because he is afraid if he doesn’t he will lose her… it would take a rockstar attitude to have him think that way if I was always there.
    5) What if I ended up really disliking him A LOT!? Then I would have to move again. Moving is totally stressful.
    6) I don’t want a man I’m dating seeing me 24/7 (see mystery comment above)
    7) Most of all, I want a man to invite me into his world because he can’t imagine living without me… not because he “should do it” or it’s a convenient thing for him or me. I want “head over heels, I’ll never love another like I love you, please come live with me” or nothing at all.
    8) Besides, where there’s a will, there’s ALWAYS a way. I would ask myself, “I wonder how I can resolve this living situation in a way that benefits me totally and creates the most loving, healthful place for me?” And then let God deliver.

  134.  #134Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    Ooooh, Sweetpea, I like Siena’s answer MUCH better than mine!!!

  135.  #135Siena on July 26, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    Thanks for your confidence, Sweetpea! I don’t know what the future holds, but I DO feel confident that he will do the best thing for both of us… whatever that may be. 🙂

  136.  #136Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:10 pm


    I wrote down #8. Now how, exactly does that work? Do I read it every day like a mantra? Or just keep it uppermost in my mind? Or just put it out there, trust that it will happen & pretty much forget about it? Or what would you do, rather?

  137.  #137Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    Thank you all so much for the positive feedback about the msg to Garden Guy!

    Sweetpea, I feel interested in the possibility of going out with him again, just to see what might happen, what I could learn, etc. but I’m anticipating that he may feel less enthusiastic about seeing me again after he gets this email, which would be fine with me. I’m just gonna let it play out…. I’ll keep you all posted.

  138.  #138Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:13 pm


    I liked your response too. It was very realistic & I appreciate that. I know this is not an ideal situation, but living with him or looking at the possibility of living in my truck are two very distinct possibilities right now. Of the two, I think living w/ him is the best option & I appreciate that you gave me suggestions working within those parameters.

  139.  #139Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:16 pm


    It feels good to me that you trust him to make the right decision. I vote for you!!!

  140.  #140Siena on July 26, 2010 at 7:18 pm

    Sweetpea, when I use “I Wonder” statements, I just say them once and forget about them. They spring from a statement I heard that said, “Under stress, go to wonder instead of fear.”

    Maybe they work so well for me because they assume that the answer is there, and there’s no anxiousness in my vibe when I say them.

    Here’s an interesting story that happened to me just this weekend that reiterated everything is unfolding exactly as it should:

    I have a “pen” that heals sore muscles when you use it (it’s hard to explain what it is, it looks like a pen and is energized with magnets). It was very expensive, and I keep misplacing it. The other day, I realized that I haven’t seen my “pen” in several days, and in passing I said, “hmmm, I wonder where that thing is?” A couple of nights later, in my sleep, I had the small awareness that I was grasping it. And then I remember remarking to myself, “see, you are taken care of even while you sleep. Your pen is found”

    When I woke up the next morning, I remembered what I thought was a dream and kind of forgot about it until I turned over, and found my “pen” on the pillow beside me.

    I had found it in my sleep! Amazing!

    That was a long way to say if you ask it and believe it, you’ll get it… without having to repeat it (unless repeating it is the way that you bring yourself to believe it.)

  141.  #141Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    Sweetpea, I wholehartedly support you, Siena has provided excellent perspective. Here are some added thoughts:

    1) does new man have a second bedroom that would be yours and you begin life as flat-mates with a flat-mate agreement (which also means you are not lovers)
    2) find a room to rent with other people who like dogs
    3) even a self-contained “nanny flat” might be a pretty reasonable option to search out
    4) If new man is paying for everything, expectations will change quite significantly and this may be quite damaging to your self-esteme
    5) would you need to put pooch into doggie daycare? Find a better place to live and use doggie daycare.
    6) call the breed-support group in your new city – they can probably help you more than you might initially think; they may know of people you could share a house with who will be sensitve to the needs of your pooch

    OK now I have a problem – in the category of totally inadequate mother….I have just ruined the laundry. I put my grungy bath mat into the washer and now it won’t rince and spin (now I have discovered why my nanny/housekeeper never washed it). So it weighs 200000 pounds of wetness, the washing machine is screaming at me and I must rush to turn it off… what on earth do I do??

  142.  #142Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:21 pm


    Wow! That is a freaking amazing story! I love it!!!

  143.  #143Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 7:27 pm

    Siena that is an awesome way to do things! So, instead of stressing about what to do if CD guy texts and how the whole “friends” thing works, I need to ~wonder~ hmmm how to phrase it…

  144.  #144Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    Weird! I just got this error msg when I tried to post:

    “You are posting too quickly! Slow down!”

    Anyone else ever gotten that????

  145.  #145Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 7:32 pm

    no – I have never posted too quickly – I have trouble managing a washing machine and a bath mat…..

  146.  #146Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    I wonder how to manage a washing machine and a bath mat?
    I love that. If I put the wonder question out there, an answer is sure to show up – it had better not arrive on my pillow.

  147.  #147Sherry on July 26, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    Lizzie – I did the same thing with a chair cushion for my outside furniture lol. I ended up breaking my washing machine.. hope yours isn’t that bad!

  148.  #148Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    I wonder what I would do if a washing machine turned up on my pillow….

  149.  #149Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    I must go rescue my washing machine – forget wondering about it. We could always add a chair cushion….

  150.  #150Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    I just lost my whole long comment here I was trying to post. I hate this phone sometimes.

    Short version… Lizzie thanks for your suggestions. Some good ideas there.

    Re: the rug, I would call a washing machine repair guy. Let him deal with it if at all possible.

  151.  #151Lucy on July 26, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    I wonder what I would do if winker hottie turned up on my pillow. 😀

  152.  #152Daria on July 26, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    Lucy – maybe scream and call 911

  153.  #153Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    Oh hey! Did I mention my new boss is on pof & has been on my favorites list pretty much since I joined? There’s some irony for you, ladies. He emailed me once & I responded but never heard from him again. I don’t think he’s put 2 & 2 together yet.

    Out of 4 guys at my new job, 2 are hot and single. Damn! Life is good!! Heeheehee!

  154.  #154Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    Now why do I want to CD again?

    Bad! Bad Mary! Lol.

    I really do want to settle down though. Right now I sure don’t feel like it.

  155.  #155Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    Oh yeah. I meant Sweetpea. Lol! Mary & I already discussed this on yon open forum though, so it’s no big secret.

  156.  #156Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    I tried to search for winker hottie on POF – it wouldn’t take me to him.

    It isn’t my washing machine. If it were mine it would be a super-indelible-never-fail-until-you-are-dead-and-maybe-even-never-washing-machine-where-your-whites-would-come-out-white-and-your-colours-come-out-colours!

    The 200000 pound bath mat is now resting safely in the bathtub. Not beside the bathtub… in the hope that sometime in the future, the water will indeed run out of it. However, it is sufficiently hot here, that I could possibly have my very own heat funnel that would then suck up all the moisture and drop a thunderstorm on some unsuspecting soul wandering aimlessly on the street.

    Sweetpea, I actually feel concerned that you might consider living in your truck. I don’t feel confident about that idea. I have safety concerns for you.

  157.  #157Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    Lizzie, glad to hear you solved (or at least waylaid the bath mat issue). So is the machine draining now? Do I understand correctly that it’s not yours so you won’t have any liability if it is broken?

    Re: living in my truck… I feel concerned about that too. Things have been bad enough around here though, that I’ve actually considered it. And, btw what I said in my lost message is that Steppin’ Up Man & I are already sexually exclusive so a second bedroom isn’t really necessary. AND I would be paying about a quarter of the mortgage, but wouldn’t have to pay my $200 storage unit fee, so…

    Not really necessary background I guess, but it is a better option than the truck. It’d be hard to CD from there too?

    Aren’t I supposed to be open to him coming up with a plan?

  158.  #158Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    I can’t date my boss, right? Can I date the new tech?

  159.  #159Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Brenda sweetie,
    I am clearly out of the loop with what happened with you and an experience you had with siren island. I do not need to know any details at this stage. I would like to say that I feel I have benefited a great deal from your input, insights, thoughts and processes. I feel the kindness of your heart in all that you have played out here. I do know that at times I write stuff that triggers others and others provide feedback. I do appreciate the views expressed and learn something – about them, about myself and about how feeling messages are communicated and interpreted. In working in feelings, emotions and the soul processing, I will at times, react to something I dislike in others when in reality, it may be something I dislike in myself but it seems easier to project my vulnerability elsewhere than to be accountable to myself. I did read your message about reducing your participation and expressing your feelings. I did want to say, I greatly appreciate your sharing and I do feel your absence. I have learned a lot from you, please come back.

  160.  #160Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 8:13 pm


    I agree with you whole heartedly about Brenda. I hope she works through this & comes back fully. She’s taken quite a bit of flack on here at times, but I, personally am never frustrayed at her, just frustrated beside her (with her doesn’t accurately portray my feeling). Come back Brenda!

  161.  #161Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    Lizzie, I also wanted to thank you for your idea about the breed rescue. I had thought of calling them to see if they could help with doggie daycare, but not to call to see about dog-friendly rooms. Thanks.

  162.  #162Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    Sweetpea – I am laughing when I write this: If you think you have problems now, just add dating your boss!

    Alright, you already know you must not do that.

    This is terrific! Boy energy now:
    I must not live with friend who wants me to move
    I must dump that friend who is not actually a friend
    I must not live in my truck
    I must not give away my soul as I work through this problem
    I must not date my new boss
    I must not touch/date/swoon/pinch the bums of the hotties at my new job
    I must not act in desperation with current stepping-up man -who-thinks-I-am-wonderful

    I really like the “I wonder” process.

    Convo with real-man:
    “I feel I am at an important crossroads in my life and have so much going on in my head, heart and soul. I wonder how we can organize this so that I feel confident I am making the right decision for me that has a good outcome for us. I am really wondering…what do you think?”

    Yup – washing machine is owned by my 85-year-old landlord and it says “heavy duty” on it. so much for heavy duty – it can’t handle one small bath mat; my whites come out grey, my colours come out grey, my grey comes out ….you guessed it….grey. Coffee doesn’t come out. Next time I find a place to live, I will have a portfolio of bathmats and I will just throw them out as I please. See, even I learned something today. So, when you move in with stepping up man, go buy many bath mats; he probably already knows not to bother wrecking the washing machine.

  163.  #163Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 8:31 pm


    Lol!! Ok. So no dating the boss. Shucks! But I really can’t even swoon over new tech? He’s tall, dark & handsome. With blue eyes. And built just like I like ’em! No swooning even? I don’t know if I can promise that…

    I especially like “I must not give away my soul as I work through this.” That’s actually one of the things I’m feeling gear about.

    And I really like the convo with real man.

    Thanks so much. I’m feeling really confident that this will work out in the best possible way!

  164.  #164Lizzie on July 26, 2010 at 8:33 pm

    That is awesome sweetpea – good night now from canada!

  165.  #165Sweetpea on July 26, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    Here’s what I’m wondering. And this isn’t the great kind of wondering like Siena’s wondering, but it’s another issue I’m dealing with… In my 20 years of dating, I’ve only met one guy I would have married. And he was not my ex-fiancee. I wonder sometimes – and this situation is bringing this feeling to the forefront again – if I’m even capable of being happy with someone that long-term. I really like the long-term idea until it starts becoming a reality & then I’m like a scared little bunny. I know this is something I need to have healed.

    I wonder how quickly that can happen for me?

  166.  #166Daria on July 26, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    I would totally date the boss

  167.  #167Nikita on July 26, 2010 at 9:13 pm

    thx for sharing about the “feeling” question email guy 🙂
    I like his feedback about emoticons not being enough-good to get that reassurance 🙂

  168.  #168Nikita on July 26, 2010 at 10:53 pm


    Maybe practicing with your roomie (cd guy) is tailor made for you. I’d try it and sort the details out. If you’re paying rent keep dating others but don’t rub his face in it… discreet.I’d feel good about him and the doggie together 🙂
    Keep looking for a place in case it gets weird there but living with a man has it’s perks…especially if you don’t want to marry him for sure…..practice…..

  169.  #169Nikita on July 26, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    I date bosses…. My current li was my boss 🙂 heheheeheehee…I rock!!!

  170.  #170Melb(a) Lynne on July 27, 2010 at 5:40 am

    Renee, just noticed your post #2 re pilot (5’8, slight build, not your type) ie similar height to you… & just mention this experience I’ve had… that I never thought could/would happen.. to me. I met a guy last year, he also said 5’8″ (on dating site) but seems same height as me (& blonde, longish [nice!]) hair, slim build… both my husbands were 6’1, dark hair, medium build & I Even Said to Him on First Coffee Date “Well, I’m only attracted to tall, dark haired guys..”.(!!)…. I only said it cos I thought no-way would I be ‘interested’ in him, although I ‘liked him, & enjoyed our chat’… I put him in the box of ‘not my type/i’m not attracted to him’… BUT, after quite a number of coffee meetings & him being very unavailable ie hardly ever txting me, but Always Responding to me (& meeting) if I txtd to meet up… I really Grew to Really Like Him … to cut to the chase I actually ‘fell for him’ big time… he’s the most amazing kisser, the chemistry is/was just awesome… (I love his personality/our chats/time together) & I’m just really ‘into’ him.
    I Never Believed I’d fall for someone when I didn’t have that initial ‘chemistry’ feeling….
    But it Has Happened (big time)…
    Maybe it’s to do with my ‘falling for someone unavailable’ issues… he said all along he ‘didn’t want a relationship’, so he was honest yet I still threw myself headlong in… & now ‘managing the tears’ (!!) ie my tears… lol!!!
    Anyway, the whole thing has made me ‘more open’ to guys where I don’t ‘feel it’ close to straight away… because this was just amazing with him (Ian)..
    However, I also understand the feeling of not wanting to meet up again, with a guy, where one feels just ‘nothing much’ for them… & it’s ok that it could be used for some ‘practice’ , but still one has to ‘want’ in some sense.. to chat with them… & when one doesn’t, there seems no point, plus that ‘leading them on’ feeling, which I also relate to alot… AND do not like doing/I mean Feeling lol!!….

  171.  #171Sweetpea on July 27, 2010 at 6:26 am

    Nikita & Daria,

    Lol! You go girls! I think I’ll pass on the boss on this one since it took me months to find a job, but CDs aren’t so hard to come by. I think I will swoon over the tech though. Lol!

    Nikita, I’m interested to know a little more about where you’re coming from on practicing by moving in w/ Steppin’ Up Man. Is the idea that since my real issue is not the shallow, casual dating, that I should explore a little more intimacy, thus healing those wounds? It makes sense to me in a way, but I’m curious.

  172.  #172Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 8:07 am

    Melb(a) Lynn, I find the many capital letters distracting from the messages and occasionally I feel discomfort and anxious I may miss something of value. What do you think?

  173.  #173Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 9:08 am

    Hi, well did we ever talk about psychics? I thought the garden man return message was great, btw. But I’m totally out of the loop with the Brenda thing – everyone posts on all the old posts too and something happened – cuz the comments don’t make sense and made me feel confused and anxious when they were like dichotomies and just there in the “air”. I like the way this ended up though, feeling light hearted and fun – I wonder about the washing machine, but I’m sure it’s fine.

    It would feel good if yall would talk more about some success with the feeling speech, like the advice on the toolkit about just stop what you’re doing and go do something that feels good – again, so when do you do the dishes? what if that never feels good? and I agree about the typing from Melba, but I find that using the EXACT formula RR scripts just make me feel manipulated, and that that wording actually makes me feel manipulative. No one can rationally argue with I feel, and it also doesn’t feel – and this is “boy” energy, I’m sure – like you own that what you are saying is REAL. Like, “I’ve experienced cheating and although I’d love to be married, I will not be open to dating you if you are capable of that behavior.” That’s the reality in the message yes – and if that’s the reality, what diffference does “and what do you think” make – it just gives someone an opportunity to make you feel/think differently?

    And no flack, please, these are real questions for me with the tools and programs – I am totally willing to try them, but I want to do so in a way that is authentic for me.

    Good day, all!

  174.  #174Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 9:28 am

    Hi Jacqueline. I struggled at first with the authenticity issue, too. Here’s what got me through to the point of genuine authentic Lucy using feeling messages:

    1. Read the blog a LOT to learn from others’ experiences
    2. Get used to going down inside myself to actually recognize, identify, and feel MY authentic feelings
    3. Only use words that express what is absolutely true for me in the moment

    Number 3 is where I am currently working hard.
    Hope this helps!

  175.  #175Siena on July 27, 2010 at 9:38 am

    So I just went online and updated my online profile. It hasn’t gotten many hits lately (I used to have tons!) and I wonder why!?

    Maybe updating my profile will draw some attention.

    But here’s the thing… when working to attract good things in life, you’re supposed to do the things that feel good. Just being online now, I didn’t feel good. It felt forced and like I “should” be doing it. (Wanna make me not do something? Tell me I should do it!)

    So what’s the alternative? I “should” keep my online profile active and be accepting dates to continue the CDing. But I feel bored by Internet dating, and don’t really want to do it anymore.

    I’d rather just meet someone out in real life and get to know him slowly… but without stops and starts. Just normal, natural, “real world” dating.

    Not forced, contrived, exhausting…

  176.  #176Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 9:39 am

    Also, the reasons I added “What do you think?” to the end of that email to garden guy:

    1. Some Sirens had expressed a point of view that was different from mine, so I felt open to exploring their perspectives within this situation, for as long as I felt safe. (As I wrote in the email, “I feel interested in the possibility of seeing you again.”)

    2. Rori has said (and Daria has reiterated!) that guys like to fix things and can surprise us by solving problems and “turning things on a dime.” I wanted to give him the opportunity to say or do something that might make me feel safer about him — and more open to him — than I did at the moment. Thus, “What do you think?”

    3. Since I was sharing with him feelings that might make HIM feel reluctant to continue to see ME, it felt perfectly reasonable to ask “What do YOU think?”

    If I didn’t care at all what he thought, I would not have added that. But I did it in order to see if he could “fix” it, and to see what he thinks about dating a girl who feels that way about his past indiscretion.

  177.  #177Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 9:51 am

    ANYWAY, I woke up to a text from garden guy this morning:

    “Good morning! I got ur email and sent a reply. Sorry my story made u sad and angry, but I needed to share that with u so u knew that about me and how I dealt with it.”

    That felt yucky to read, because “how I dealt with it” was . . . very poorly, imo.

    Later I read the email:

    Hi Lucy.

    Thanks for your honest email response back to me. I really appreciate it!

    I understand your hesitation about me. If you feel sad, disappointed and even angry about my past cheating and infidelity (that occurred six plus years ago), well, that’s AN important issue! If it’s that BIG an issue as far as you are concerned my gut feel is that there would be little hope for us getting together and in being successful for the long term.

    What do you think?


    I feel ick reading that. It feels like he’s implying that it SHOULDN’T be that big an issue. I would feel better if he had acknowledged the severity of the issue in general and for himself as well and offered something to help work through it. But maybe it is just me, and other women would be fine with it — and that’s what he’s counting on finding.

    I do feel somewhat relieved, though, that he is letting me off the hook.

    Any suggestions for replies are welcome!!!!


  178.  #178Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 9:53 am

    Hi – Sienna, I’m with you; I would feel the same after a “round” of say a dozen dates and I would have to take a break – it’s like job interviewing!

    I noticed I am always saying I “feel” – I don’t remember ever saying I think, and my friends all tease me about how I think I AM my feelings…so maybe that’s why this is hitting me differently.

    Lucy, thanks for writing and I see where you are coming from – but he can’t “fix” it, if that is what you believe. He did it, he told you, it crosses the line you have for relationship and definitely for marriage. Yeah, it’s good to tell him that, and it’s “nice” to ask what he thinks – but if we’re being honest to your own defined feeling about the issue, it really doesn’t matter.

    Lots and lots of times me caring about what someone else thinks has lead me down a garden path of excusing their behavior because they had really good reasons – and feelings – that were more compelling than my simple little moral objection. That didn’t work for me.

    Will check back later, and hoping someone will explain the Brenda random seeming posts and departure conversation?


  179.  #179Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Jacqueline, I have also struggled with feeling messages for a variety of reasons. Now I am getting the sense that I am finding my own unique way. My natural head is to begin something with “I think…” what I have come to realize is that if I turn many of these statements into “I feel…” and stick to the formula, which I do find very difficult, I have an authentic, energy sharing, relationship building conversation. Lets do a try and see with the statement I just wrote to Melb(a) and I do hope Melb(a) is understanding of me using this as an example.

    Version 1: In my natural thinking head

    Using capital letters at the beginning of words in a text that are not titles of books, is very distracting to me the reader. I think I am missing important information because you are using random capital letters. I would like you to stop that please.

    To me this message, comes across highly judgmental and could trigger considerable offense in the person reading it (in this case Melb(a) and maybe others on the list). I may actually cause conflict when I don’t want to cause conflict. I actually feel a loss of energy with this Version 1.

    Version 2: An attempt at feeling, but I am missing it…
    When you use capital letters in your posted messages, I find I am distracted. What I would prefer, is if you would please not use capital letters.

    The approach here is a common one used in teaching listening and coaching to reduce conflict; but I find it even more difficult to do these types of messages! The formula is:
    When you…..I feel….What I would prefer is…..
    I find it very difficult to get away from the rather confrontational hidden message of “you should” – YIKES self-trigger!!!

    Version 3: In feeling message
    I find the many capital letters distracting from the messages and occasionally I feel discomfort and anxious I may miss something of value. What do you think?

    This message feels much less confrontational and inviting a means of solving the problem. I hope with this message that I am inviting without judgment. It is hard to tell though, because I can not see the visual reaction that Melb(a) may have. Here I am practicing and trusting the process.

    I am finding variations of the: I feel….what I would like is….what do you think

    I am picking up that…..what works better for me is…. I’d appreciate your perspective

    What do you think?

  180.  #180Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Yeah, Siena, I hate “shoulds” too!

    And I feel like getting off online dating as soon as these last few CD’s peter out. I miss college where you interacted with single guys in the real world all the time — at meals, bookstore, classes, social events, dorms, paths, sports, etc.

  181.  #181Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 10:31 am

    I took myself off – cancelled all my on-line profiles. I feel liberated. I have no idea what I am going to do to meet people and don’t really care at the moment. What would you like to do Lucy?

  182.  #182Siena on July 27, 2010 at 10:34 am

    Lucy, I didn’t read Garden Guy’s email the same way you did. To me, it sounds like he’s just stating the facts. And it’s TRUE, if you can’t “get over” his past cheating, there will be no future for you.

    I would just respond truthfully. Do you want to give him a chance and see if he’s really a cheater? Or do you believe that “once a cheater, always a cheater?”.

    No matter what, I wouldn’t go in thinking that his reaction or attitude about it “should” be one way or the other. It is what it is… and he’s gonna think and feel the way he does about it… I wouldn’t want to try to change that about him.

  183.  #183Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Siena, have you thought of what you would do to meet guys if you took yourself off of the online processes?

  184.  #184Siena on July 27, 2010 at 10:53 am

    hi Lizzie,

    I’ve thought about it, and haven’t really come up with anything that works. I mean, I hang out in coffee shops, go to places where men are, have my friends looking out for me…

    At some point, I think they just have to find me. I’m not a shrinking violet, I’m always out and about…

    The thing is, I’m not even really keen on meeting new people right now. I mean, I’ll totally respond if they approach me, but I’m not into “doing” anything about it or being proactive.

    I’m in my boy energy all day with work, and have been actively CDing for almost 8 months now (dozens of first dates!)

    I think I just need a break and a breather and a nice guy to come to me and do all the work so that I can feel feminine…

    do you have any ideas for me?

  185.  #185Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Siena, I soooo wish I had a different story or something inspirational to share. I did the POF thing and went on so many first dates as well. I did meet 2 people I had awesome chemistry with – sadly I really messed up one of them. That was a before siren island experience and Family Guy who is so busy at the moment I am not too sure where it is at – an imaginary relationship. The others were just soooooo bad bad bad.

    I have taken myself off of e-Harmony. I paid for that service for over a year and only had one person go all the way to meeting out of 900 matches.

    I took myself off of Lava Life – which I paid for for 6 months and never had one single hit. I paid for and and and took myself down after 3 months. These 4 are by far the worst experiences I have ever had. In fact on three of them, I felt several of the men were predatory – as in looking specifically for vulnerable women. I sent their approach emails to a bunch of my men friends who said: run baby run!

    Twice I have gone to speed dating. Both times were poor. The men were remarkably poor quality – like shocking. The only thing that was right – they were male and the age category. LOL! And this is coming from a chick who has an amazing sense of humour and will give a gnat a chance! Too funny.

    I have just joined a “singles golf gang”. Singles only means the partner of the golfer does not golf. So far, everyone I have met are at least 10 years older than I, considerably overweight, are married…..however, I am doing something I really enjoy – playing golf, and meeting new people. I do get to practice the tools a bit as well.

    I am not so sure what is the next step.
    I might try “lunch dates” in the fall. It is more expensive and I think I am guaranteed 8 lunch dates or something like that. I don’t want to go to a full-fleged dating service. I do have concerns around my time as a few guys have said that I am not really available in their eyes. My feeling on that is 2-fold, on the boy-energy side, I am the solo-single mom of 2 early teens of which one is a competitive swimmer so my schedule revolves around her needs; and on the other hand, I have some emotional suspicions about the “back-off” signal I just might be sending out there. While my kids have been away these past 3 weeks, I have been working and reading a great deal about self-love and practicing feeling messages. I do sense a change in my vibe. I shall carry on! And please send and post ideas!!!

  186.  #186Renee on July 27, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    Melba Lynne — Thanks for your input.

    I actually had a similar experience with a guy who was balding…I was NOT attracted to him (not in a physical way anyway) but he was a lot of fun and one night we had several drinks and one thing led to another…the next morning, I woke up and thought he was adorable — I had fallen head over heels for him! I never in a million years thought I would fall for a guy who was losing a significant portion of his hair, but I did.

    With shorty pilot, though — it’s more than just I’m not attracted (even though I did let him kiss me good night and he suprised me by being a good kisser), it’s also that I don’t feel feminine and lovely around him. I LIKE being able to wear my 3″ heels and still look up into my guy’s eyes — it makes me feel little and feminine (at one point in my life, I had a weight problem, so I’m probably a little sensitive to feeling “big” even though I wear a size 2-4).

    And then, as you mentioned, there’s the whole “leading him on” issue — this guy has been very clear that he’s looking for someone to settle down with and I’d hate for him to get his hopes up with me just to have me use him for free therapy…maybe I’m just feeling resistant to changing my ways…what do you think?

  187.  #187Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Lizzie, I love how you shared your learning process in regards to feeling messages in #179!

  188.  #188Renee on July 27, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Siena — My experience with online dating has, overall, been very good. I currently have a half dozen men on eHarmony that I’m in open communication with, 3 of which have recently asked me for my number and of those, I suspect I’ll actually meet at least 2 of them. Over the past 2 years, every guy I’ve dated except 2 have been online matches (mostly from eHarmony, but a few from Match).

    Having said that, I did have to tweak my profile a bit to have it both feel authentic and to have it read well to a man (on both sites) and on eHarmony, I retook the personality questionnaire a couple of times before I started getting more matches I was comfortable with. I’m not attracted to probably 9 out of 10 guys I’m matched with, but of the 10% I am, half of those aren’t actually active on the site and the other half I end up communicating with a while and usually end up going out with at least once.

    I get so ingrained with my daily habits and so caught up in work that if I didn’t date men from online, I would rarely date and that’s definitely not what I want right now. But if you’re not “feeling it” when you’re logged into your account at this time, perhaps you would benefit from taking down your profile and putting it back up once you feel like it again.

    The online service I’ve been very disappointed with has been — rarely ever do they send me anyone I feel even remotely attracted to. I wouldn’t waste my money with them.

    Anyway — the point of my comment is that I’ve had pretty good luck as far as meeting single, eligible men — but now that I’ve been reading Rori, I have a much better idea of why some of my other relationships haven’t gone anywhere!

    Good luck!

  189.  #189Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Hi, and thanks! I see that it could be confrontational, the I prefer -especially telling someone how to type! LOL…Melb(a) you are FINE just the way you are, it’s just an easy example, btw – hug; what I’m wondering (and that’s just me speaking nothing to do with suggested word choices) is what if you used feeling words without the I feel, it is the same or should be the same meaning in a sentence – like verbs I hate the way you…..but it ruins the effect. Which is why the I feel seems like manipulation, it’s a qualifier of some sort that seems inauthentic or limiting to me, but this is somewhat negated by the what do you think part. For one thing, if I’m saying it it’s obvious it’s what I feel.

    And btw, I still feel weird about the Brenda coversation and no one giving me any input on how/why/where that went wrong. Now, I’m supposed to say What do you think? But I’m noticing it’ll just get ignored if it’s not what other’s wanna talk about. Interesting.

    Anyway, I am probably way too confrontational and controversial, so I shall continue to hang out here learning “softness.”

    About on line I actually had luck on Craigslist – better than believe it or not, or at least way quicker to wade through, not many games are played on there – but not many people are claiming they want to get married either. But they ARE predatory, and they are looking for hookups and you better believe they get in your face about it.

    Even garden guy’s response is a little in your face,also kind of hiddenly hostile? and basically a buh bye….unless you come around to my way of thinking. He’s good with sounding like the “good guy,” though.

    I think by the time they get to online it’s here I am take it or leave it. I also think a lot of people are on there just to feel like they are doing something about a social life, hence the all just emailing and maybe phoning. I also think they find it fun, not frustrating like it is to us.

    So, real life, there’s a deal here called Events and Adventures and you just go on group fun things, but it’s pricey….and don’t all city’s have Leisure Learning; those are the common suggestions. I never met a man at a grocery store in my life, tho! Of course if they were following me around I figured they were creepy. LOL.

    I began to think it was an age thing and that the statistics were different for the over 40 men, you have to take away the one’s that are married, the one’s that are divorced but with issues or children, etc. and the never marrieds – cuz they aint gonna….and you end up with a handful of older, opinionated men who are quite sure what they want in a woman and unless it’s sex, aren’t going to put a lot of effort into anything else. Those looooong online profiles of what they say they want are unbelievable and kind of hilarious to me, and the qualifiers are ridiculous – like I would love a committed rel. with loooong staring sessions and walks on the beach, as long as you are thin, athletic, and don’t have like hairy arms…..OMG! are they really that good, or have they just watched chick flicks?

    Now here’s an authentic, what do you all think?


  190.  #190Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Jacqueline, Rori teaches that a man can and wants to “fix” situations that upset a woman in order to make the relationship work. Asking “what do you think?” opens the door for him to offer a solution to a problem. I had never established a hard and firm boundary around past infidelity because it had never come up before. So, this situation involved me exploring that boundary. As I learned earlier on here, some women would be okay with his past. I didn’t have anything specific in mind about how he might “fix” it (and Rori says not to — let HIM come up with it!) — but, in retrospect, him trying to fix it might have been something along the lines of, “I’m sorry this feels so bad for you. Would you like to meet and talk about it some more?” (That was not an expectation on my part — I was just giving him an opportunity, like Rori instructs. And I think her idea is a great one!! It keeps the woman open to the man and his capabilities instead of closing off and shutting down.)

  191.  #191Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Jacqueline — “Lots and lots of times me caring about what someone else thinks has lead me down a garden path of excusing their behavior because they had really good reasons – and feelings – that were more compelling than my simple little moral objection. That didn’t work for me.”

    That’s where learning to trust yourself comes in. <3

  192.  #192Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    Lizzie — “What would you like to do Lucy?”

    Hehe. Well, if you’ve followed my “hoping” experiment… Last night I wrote a hope that I would meet the perfect man for me this weekend. 🙂 So, I’m hoping I won’t have to do anything!

  193.  #193Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Siena, it seems I read it the same way you did, but just had a different feeling response to it. I agree that he was just stating the facts and that it is true that if I can’t get over his cheating, there will be no future. Absolutely.

    I also agree that “he’s gonna think and feel the way he does about it” — and I would not WANT to change that. The last thing I want to do is try to convince a man that his behavior/beliefs/thoughts/feelings need to change! (BTDT with a NPD sex addict.) My point was that the way he feels and thinks about it, to ME, was very telling, and not what I would have wanted to hear from a man I might want to explore relationship with. It’s not a “should” for him– it’s a “don’t want” for me.

    You wrote, ‘Do you want to give him a chance and see if he’s really a cheater? Or do you believe that “once a cheater, always a cheater?”.’ That was my point in the email to him — to be honest with him that I don’t know for sure the answer to that question for myself, but that I wanted him to know I had uncomfortable feelings about the issue, and… what did he think?

    So I don’t know where to go from here with him….

  194.  #194Nikita on July 27, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Hi Sweetpea,

    yes, that is the direction I’m going in. I’ve lived with a few men and it teaches a lot. If this guy was one that you had major expectations with I’d feel uncomfortable encouraging you to take a chance-but it sounds like a “playdate”. Him loving the pooch is big for me. I LOVE animals and feeling good about them is going to feel good for you….and if you feel good about leaving pochie home while at work it’s going to fortify you in a way poochie howling won’t. That’s an added stress you can do without. But get the agreement in writing…like “house rules”. Can he bring home a woman and sleep with her? How would you feel? Is there a “no guests rule”? Or a strictly platonic guests? You both need to feel comfortable and safe. This all assumes that you are paying your way….rent wise. Do you spend a lot of time on the phone at home..can he hear your conversations or is that a non-issue? Ask him what his deal breakers are. What if you both decide to date others exclusively? What’s the plan?…this is for you to just feel out on your own for a day-then translate into pure feelings-he can do the solving of problems/etc. But get honest-with YoU first.

  195.  #195Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    “Even garden guy’s response is a little in your face,also kind of hiddenly hostile? and basically a buh bye….unless you come around to my way of thinking. He’s good with sounding like the “good guy,” though.”

    Jacqueline, it felt a little that way to me, too. The vibe. Kinda passive-aggressive.

  196.  #196Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Jline, I think you may be confusing feeling messages with thinking messages. Only use “I FEEL….” when it is an EMOTION, not something you think/believe.

    The way you’re looking at it, yes, it IS manipulative! “I feel that you are a jerk.” That is NOT a feeling message because it doesn’t include a FEELING. It just puts the word “feel” where the word “think” belongs. That’s NOT what feeling messages are!

    About Brenda — I’m not sure what you’re wanting to know….

  197.  #197Daria on July 27, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Jacqueline – feelings are NOT like thoughts but replaced with “I feel”

    feelings are authentic… feelings… which I personally did not understand the concept of when I first found Rori

    feelings are : sad, mad, glad, afraid

    any other feelings are variations of those

    ex. I’m feeling sad.

    vs. I feel that …. <—- not a real feeling, it's a thought

    many of us don't actually share our authentic feelings.

    It's crucial and non-manipulative to share them, because along with sharing my feeling… "I feel sad" I let go of control of "something must be done about this" – with practice

    it's a SHARING of how I'm feeling,

    rather than a manipulative way of trying to get someone to do something…

    we're not trying to get ANY result

    JUST sharing

    takes a lil practice,

    took a bunch of practice for me to even FEEL my feelings…

    what am I feeling now? huh?

    Im feeling good

  198.  #198Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    Yes, yes…I think the most difficult part of the feeling message is actually identifying the feeling. As for example, with the capital letters, I had to step back and really take a look at what is the feeling? Was it iritating? And if so, what is really behind that? Is it a mirror or a projection? Is it something I am feeling somewhere in my body? So with lots of attention to my body, I realized that it was quite a simple thing and neutral on the feeling front – it is distracting me from paying attention and I want to pay attention.

    I another thread I described how I described my divorce on a first date – it is the first time I did it within the feeling framework. The result was amazing for me to experience. The man leaned right in to hear more; I felt confident and incredibly relaxed with the story. I felt really good about it. And for the first time, it didn’t get a huge reaction from the guy that would have otherwise taken me down a terrible path of explaining. The other thing that happened, I no longer feel invested in the outcome. I had a wonderful date and I don’t care if he never calls again – he isn’t really for me anyway. We did have a wonderful time and I would go out and attend an event or something with him – if he ever calls, I just don’t think he will.

    About Brenda – I actually don’t know what happened. I picked up a message wherein she indicated she no longer felt safe here and would be curtailing her processing and contribution. I wrote a posting asking her to come back. Others have done the same.

  199.  #199Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Lizzie, kay thanks, it is just weird that happened right when we’d been speaking well of her.

    Lucy – I just felt the sudden abrupt posts she made after we wrote -like “she who has no sin can cast the first stone” was weird as heck; and so I see to express that more clearly (thank you, Ms. Daria) I’d say I felt very disoriented by Brenda’s post and it heightened my feeling of unease on the blog posting.

    I am pretty much always feeling and that’s where I come from. Being rational is what I have my best friend for. So, I hate blah blah – hate is a feeling, yes? but I’m to say I feel that I hate….it’s symantics. However, I can see it would affect the conversation and the other person, so I’m interested in this “tool.”

    Lucy – you know we go through all this and we end up agreeing on the underlying vibe thing? I think that was what you knew and felt and reacted to -when all your sparkly wore off. He’d shown you who he really was, vs. being what you wanted him to be and it hurt and exhausted you. Once I met a guy who told me, what you see is what you get. I just laughed and told him, Honey you’ll be anything I want you to be for about 3 to 6 months….THEN what I see will be what I get. You were working your tools though and also in your head and followed up on that – that’s good and growing. So, will you now move on from him?

    I hope the move goes well for Sweetpea, maybe only do it if you have a backup plan? even if it is your truck? I felt I was taking a huge risk when I let my guy move in, even afer I’d background checked him, et. al. but it has actually turned out to be a real adventure in feeling loved, allowing him to be who he is and show me he rows – smile- and he does. My life is not fraught with drama, but filled with a boring affection. Which makes me feel like laughing and crying too, but mostly laughing because I think it’s probably very good for me, and a far cry from my 10 year learning to love myself experience!

    Daria, I get sharing feelings, okay, and as women I guess that’s about all there is for us to do without jumping into masculine energy? But I already feel bored with it. What do you think? How does only sharing and not resolving feel good? And why would I say I feel bored vs I am bored?

    This is reminding me of learning Spanish – you say I have….fear, etc. not I AM afraid, different ground of being, actually, but it’s also a different language which I believe is a better descriptor than the English anyway.

    Thanks, all!

  200.  #200Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    Daria, I always found your posts to be like in my face and felt scared by them! So, it’s interesting that you explained this very well to me – and what I think is maybe I’m really good at being my feelings, but really afraid of other people’s feelings, esp. anger. Which gives me something to work on and makes me feel good about the investment I’m putting into the program. Any further input on accepting feelings would be great!

  201.  #201Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Wow, I watched Lie to Me and checked the forum at Television without Pity…and there’s a male/female speak post that’s so on target with this – to quote:

    “Yeah I did a study on this in college, based on some woman’s theories of the difference between male and female handwriting. I’m Canadian btw… I’m sure cultural differences matter hugely. But I analyzed an IM conversation between a male friend and I. The theory is that women are raised to say things like “I think”, “Maybe”, and ask a lot of questions, to kind of placate/please the other person. They use subjectivity and even if they feel strongly, will make their language sound unsure so not to be offensive. Men are raised to make statements with an air of objectivity, “This is”, “It’s this way”, and to disagree without condition.

    These are just theories/generalities of course, I don’t mean to offend. [See what I did there? 😉 ]”

    End post…..I feel a huge surge of excitement when synchronicity shows up in my life, it’s a rush!

  202.  #202Daria on July 27, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    Jacqueline – not done reading… just to mention…

    “I hate” and “I feel that I hate…” are not the actual truth.


    to me a variation on, anger and fear

    so do you really feel hate when you say that?

    like… I hate grammar mistakes – (my guess not true)

    vs. I hate the man who murdered my best friend – (possibly true hate)

    I feel hate…


    ok… nontheless it’s OK to use I hate as in, “I don’t like”

    but theres a deeper level of actual felt feelings – THATS what we want to express.

    theres no I feel THAT… Rori particualrly says this in one of her programs… if you can stick a THAT, in it, its most likely a thought, not a feeling

    feelings just are

    I feel confused

    I feel happy

    I feel hateful

    I feel mad being talked to this way.

    vs. I feel that this is not the way to talk to a lady <—- thought in disguise!! I THINK that this is not the way to talk to a lady


    Rori has a Soft Shoulder Roll tool to get in touch with our in the now feeling


    roll shoulders up and out, gently letting them fall open at the side – (not military style backwards) – with palms facing out

    you will feel something, maybe a tingle coming up from your tummy up…

    can you put a word to that feeling? is it mad, sad, glad, or afraid

    me… right now I feel a bit afraid

  203.  #203Daria on July 27, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    Jacqueline – on feeling bored sharing feelings…

    I usually feel really good and loved inside when i express my true authentic feeling – giving myself a voice

    and other things of feminine energy are learning to receive, letting go of control…

    once we state a feeling, there will usually be some kind of response, then we share how we feel then, etc…

    it gives the man room to act – masculine energy –

    oh… thats right… theres the I don’t wants…

    I feel (gross looking at the garbage) . I don’t want (to take out the garbage) . What do you think?

    … at this point im practicing actually BEING CURIOUS what he thinks, rather thank tacking on a what do you think in hopes of getting a result of garbage removal

  204.  #204Daria on July 27, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Jacqueline – here’s a VERY CRUCIAL post to feeling feelings in the body – and what to do with them – love them

    this is called RIFFING and what you see me doing here – probably when i seem very intense

    this post and the other previous ones in the series of posts in the power and self esteem section on the right hand bar…

    were life changing for me

  205.  #205Daria on July 27, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    Oh yeah what you asked

    – as you begin to love your OWN feelings, and practice stating them in the moment – you will feel more powerful and accepting when Others are expressing theirs… including anger

  206.  #206Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    You know, garden guy didn’t even say anything at any point to reassure me — such as, “I learned my lesson and I would never cheat on a woman again” or any variation of that.

    Another thing that kind of sticks in my mind is that at dinner, when he was talking about my pics, he said, “I love that your pics show different facets of you, different looks. Even now, in the time we’ve been sitting here, I’ve seen about five different looks that you have! It really turns me on when a woman can look many different ways.”

    I might be reading into this, but the feeling I got was that he thrives on “variety” (like my ex-h), and might have a hard time being with just one woman, no matter how many different “looks” she has!

    But maybe that’s just my trigger because of my ex. (He admitted that he lost interest in having sex with me “because I already know what you look like.” 🙁 )

  207.  #207Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Anyway, how about responding to garden guy with, “I don’t want to feel unsafe with a man.”

    What do you think?

  208.  #208Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    thank you Daria!
    I have really struggled with feeling the feelings in my body….the result of many years of abuse and self-protective wall-building. What I have learned from you is quite surprising to me – through your spontaneous riffing, I am awakening to feeling and discovering that as much as some of my feelings are HUGE, I am not fearing those feelings as much as I once did. Remarkable. The fear is becomming smaller or not so encompassing in my body and easier to recognize and localize (tummy, shoulders, neck, jaw) and I am experiencing greater joy with my feelings – all the different types of feelings. I have discovered feeling at peace and how pleasurable that feeling is. I greatly appreciate your sharing here.

  209.  #209Daria on July 27, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Lucy – I feel weird about this Garden Guy thing…

    what about saying..

    Hmm I feel weird as this has never come up for me… I feel a bit judgemental and I don’t like feeling that way… I really like you and feel disappointed thinking that this may be an issue… I would like to explore this more…

    I don’t want to be with a man who would cheat on me… and I feel afraid of that when I think of your story… what do you think?


    did I forget that – I feel a lil brushed off… I don’t want to be with a man who is ready to let me go… that feels kinda bad…


    ohhh boy i feel lost now

    I know I would say this:

    whoa I feel kinda brushed off… that feels bad . I feel concerned hearing your story. I don’t EVER want to be cheated on. What do you think?


    I know I might have a similar convo with guys I know that I know that have hit women in the past… even though they’ve been nothing but good to me – and great friends

  210.  #210Daria on July 27, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    yay Lizzie! Thanks! Thats how I felt too – the feelings became easier to localize in my body, not so all encompassing and vague!

    and yes I started to feel good about FEELING


  211.  #211Lizzie on July 27, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    Oh Lucy, what a sad and hurtful comment – I have a feeling sensation directly in my heart ribcage with that one. That kind of hurt…ugh….

    Garden guy triggers me with his effusiveness. I feel fear, threatened, my guard is coming to attention (I have a brigade of 5,000 centurians living in my head ready at the drop of a drop to be deployed to enhiliate the perpetrator….just a slightly over the top reaction). If this were me, it has triggered being manipulated into doing things I don’t wish to do. Trust is not happening for me – the centurians have doned their armour. Hmmm curious. I wonder if I would see him again to see if there are cracks. I wonder how controlling he really is?

    how does this feel:
    What is important to me in meeting a man, is how I feel about who I am when I am with them. Initially, trust needs to be solid and unconcious/unquestioned. At the present time, trust have moved into my concious awareness – I don’t want to feel unsafe with you. What do you think?

  212.  #212Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    Daria, what do you mean by “I feel weird about this Garden Guy thing” — you feel weird about him, or about how I’m handling it, or what?

    I like your ideas about how to respond to him. I’m not sure how to choose exactly what to say….

    I wonder …..

  213.  #213Daria on July 27, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    I feel weird about HIM. I feel icky and angry at what he says.

    I feel kinda mad and not reassured and I feel kinda brushed offf… I don’t like feeling this way!!!!

  214.  #214Daria on July 27, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    AND – I feel weird about this “making a big deal” —- in my head words, not that you are, because I might too — about his past infidelity is what’s kinda making the vibe stonewall

    I feel mad to be told that this might not work! I don’t want to hear that! I don’t want to be with a man who isn’t gonna reassure me when I feel scared to open up… and this feels weird. I feel judgemental about the past, and I want to feel secure that that’s not something I want in my relationship .. and I’m feeling WEIRD and mad… weirdly Angry – what do you think?

    wow sounds like the type of texts i sent to Getright man… and then i dont get any response lol

  215.  #215Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Thanks so much for clarifying, Daria. I feel kinda the way you described, but I don’t know if it’s because of the triggers from my ex-h. My gut feeling is that it really is HIM, not just my triggers. And some of you on here are feeling the same thing…..

  216.  #216Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    As I’m meditating on this right now, one thing that just came up in me is: “Don’t use this as an excuse to shut down, Lucy. Stay soft and open, keep your heart unzipped. You can trust yourself even if you can’t trust him — therefore it is safe to stay open and warm toward him.”

    Does that make sense?

  217.  #217Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    “feel kinda mad and not reassured and I feel kinda brushed offf”

    Yeah, my feeling email to him after the date was very honest and vulnerable and soft and non-blaming, and opened the door WIDE for him to REASSURE ME — but he dropped the ball instead.

  218.  #218Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    OKay, I’m having trouble with this… trying to write to him — “not reassured” is not a feeling, and it is sort of blaming/making him wrong. So, how do I say that in a Rori way?

  219.  #219Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    Oh, I can’t say “I feel brushed off” either — cuz that’s about him, not a feeling… How do I say it as a feeling?

  220.  #220Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Daria, thank you for so much time/thought. I get it and I appreciate you! I love how your feelings change every 15 minutes, feels like me. smile….I’m gonna riff one day soon and I have read almost every back blog, but a lot of them need to be read again to really get the “juice” out of them, so thank you for the link too. I’m a girly girl who had to be the “boss” and that didn’t feel good, so I’m more than willing to learn how to not row. But I’d still be wanting him to take out the trash…lol…some of RR’s stuff – like the bracelet on your left hand, I’ve done for years, other – like lean back – feels so unatural, but the give him your whole soft focus is something I’ve also done for years. So combining things ought to work well for me.

    Lucy – wow that’s a big one, so if you put on a wig he’s gonna think you’re a new woman and that’d satisfy his appetite?

    If you wanna know, I’d just say “I feel sad that what started out fun has become so heavy. I wanted reassurance for my feelings, and now I feel like this is turning too heavily into what you want and your feelings, with no reassurance being offered. Can you explain a little more why you brought this subject up and what your part in the divorce was? What do you think, do you want to keep talking until I can feel comfortable with your explanations?”

    and let it be done either way, it’s just spinning here, but yeah, he sets of warning bells for me too, and I think that last email was basically a brush off, btw. So that’s at least 3 of us, and since you know that you will be armed….and you can trust yourself… if you want to delve into it, delve. You are still circular, tho? cuz that I think is key to having power in it.

    Let us know and good luck!

  221.  #221Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    “so if you put on a wig he’s gonna think you’re a new woman and that’d satisfy his appetite?”

    Jacqueline – I actually asked my ex-h that exact question, and he said (completely seriously), “It might help.” Then he went on to describe other things I could do to make myself appear to be a different woman….

  222.  #222Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Here is what I’ve come up with so far (used a bunch of Daria’s ideas):

    “I feel uncertain — this is the first time this issue has come up for me with a date. I really like you and I feel disappointed thinking that this may be an issue. I don’t want to be with a man who would cheat on me… and I feel afraid of that when I think of your story…I feel angry and sad thinking about being cheated on by someone I love and trust. I don’t want to feel unsafe and afraid and angry and sad. What do you think?”

    I like what you just wrote, too, Jacqueline, but I feel concerned that it’s not feeling messagey and don’t wants enough — maybe too much boy energy? What do you all think?

    Siena, if you’re reading, I would love to hear your current thoughts on this, since you had a slightly different perception earlier.

  223.  #223Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Yes, absolutely, I am still CDing other guys. This was only my first date with garden guy.

    As far as the email being a brush-off . . . I read it again, and yeah, it feels like he doesn’t want a woman he has to reassure — he wants a woman who will tolerate him cheating! Maybe he tells his story on the first date to weed out the girls who he can’t get away with cheating on.

  224.  #224Daria on July 27, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    what about:

    “whoa, wtf?? that doesn’t feel good”


  225.  #225Lucy on July 27, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    That’s genius!!! I’m goin with that!

    “Whoa, garden guy, WTF??? That feels icky!”

    short, sweet, to the point. lol

    haha, I can’t use “Man, I hope you’re not that lame in person” cuz I already met him in person. 🙂

  226.  #226Jacqueline on July 27, 2010 at 7:43 pm

    Good one, girls! and I hope you meet someone all new and more suited to you this weekend! Lucy – and yeah, I’m pretty clear on don’t wants, but I had a lot of time to figure out what my lines in the sand we’re gonna be – honesty is the biggest one for me; it’s not what you’ve done it’s whether you’ll lie about it. And I mean ANY lie…I hate lies with that feeling of hate Daria described.

    Daria, thanks again,


  227.  #227Sweetpea on July 27, 2010 at 8:35 pm


    Thanks. It feels rather like a playdate. 🙂 and you are completely correct about poochie. It has been such a stresser having to worry about whether or not she’s behaving while I’m at work. I believe the I wonder question Siena shared will land me just where I need to be. Maybe it is with him for a time.

    As far as house rules, the only thing I really need is a 30 day notice coverage. I’ve already set the rest of the ground rules early on. We are sexually active & I told him & we agreed to exclusivity in that dept. So there will be no other women. I would want to CD. Not sure how to swing that one, but I don’t believe that’s a problem to bring to his attention. I believe discreet is the way to go there. Although I am honest to a fault sometimes, so…

    Does anyone have any feelings about that? Is there anything else I need to consider, Nikita?

    In the meantime, I will keep my options open & see what kinds of rooms are for rent elsewhere. Just in case.

    Thank you all for your feedback.

  228.  #228Sweetpea on July 27, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    I spent some time with SU Man tonight though & it feels interesting how much more comfortable I am since I used feeling messages & let him know how I was feeling. I see how closing down & letting resentment build has played such a big part in the failure of other relationships I’ve had.

    I’m feeling good about this however it plays out.

  229.  #229Melb(a) Lynne on July 28, 2010 at 12:22 am

    Hi Lizzie, sorry the caps bothersome, I can leave them out entirely if it makes the reading easier.. the reason I use them is that when I speak with someone I often emphasise some words, put more inflexion on them; I think because I’m a bit of a passionate person (I think, I don’t really know why). So I transfer that to text by putting a capital where I’d probably ‘exagerate’ my speech level/intensity, when/if I were speaking, if that makes sense?… if it’s more confusing & discomforing than helpful I can leave it out, no worries… Lynne

  230.  #230Melb(a) Lynne on July 28, 2010 at 12:42 am

    Hi Renee, i agree with both the things you say… & in fact re ‘feeling feminine’ & ‘looking up to a guy’ I agree I like that (had that); & even with Ian (who I am still v keen on) when I’m with him sometimes I do feel ‘a bit big’!!! but as I am not big 165cm, 52 kg I just acknowledge my feeling & then continue to enjoy him… but I’ve been ‘seeing him’ since April 09, so know him pretty well… & just really love his persona… cos we got to know each other for over 3months before any physical stuff… I think if he’d ‘come on strong’, ‘been contacting me/asking for dates alot’ I wouldn’t have even got keen on him… it was his ‘stepping back’ initially i think, that made me feel so comfortable with him & then I never felt threatened that he’d ‘ask anything of me’, so I could just ‘see him’ & we had great fun chats!! & not having the stress of ‘Will a physical relationship work out’? & ‘Will he stop seeing me cos a physical relship not happening straight away?’…I could relax & just enjoyed his company (which I then did more and more!!!)… & just by the way, re the kissing, I really think it’s a thing of ‘we kiss well together’ as cf to him ‘being a good kisser’…. it is just really amazing for me…. la la la di dahhh…….. 🙂
    Re: the leading him on, exactly, if he’s said what he’s looking for & you’re feeling ‘not particularly keen’… is hard to ‘drum up keeness’ when one doesn’t feel it… if you’re not feeling like another meeting, I think that’s the answer… things just can’t be forced… & he’ll feel happier moving towards someone else who reciprocates his level of keenness…. I think my Ian thing was/is just a bit of an anomoly personally (I get a big gobsmacked re my level of intensity now, cf to my first feelings that he wouldn’t be someone I’d really want to date)….
    Also have met alot of guys that I just do not want to see again, even though they are ‘nice’.. so I just don’t see them again…
    I hope that clarifies… Lynne

  231.  #231Melb(a) Lynne on July 28, 2010 at 4:19 am

    PS: (it’s now 9.00pm in Melbourne, not staying up all night, got work in the am!! lol!)..
    Lizzie, Jacqueline: I just read the comments re my typing/type & re feeling messages, .. my ‘natural pleaser’ & my need/desire to ‘not offend’ came out as you can see in my response to Lizzie, above; an authentic response could’ve been “I felt hurt/upset criticised by the comments on my typing – even though your feelings are your feelings & true to you & how you feel, I understand and respect that – but I like to type the way I typed, it was me, the real authentic me, & although it was not suitable for you Lizzie, for the reasonable reasons you mentioned, I have chosen to ‘not be me’ to suit your needs”..
    So, now not sure how to resolve, by ‘being the real me’ as Rori promotes… because to be me would be to continue the way I was typing… but to respect Lizzie’s desires/needs/suggestions would be to change my methods of expression… Since Rori is teaching me to be authentic, the real me, I feel a conflict between ‘being me’ & ‘wanting to do what keeps other’s happy as I do not wish to offend/upset anyone’…
    And my natural response is the same as in (both) my marriages… ie to do what they want… if it’s not too problematic for me… thus I’ve now realised I’m continuing my ‘patterns’…. that DID NOT WORK in both my marriages… ie compromising me… to keep them happy…. noticing big trigger there/here… lol!

  232.  #232Lizzie on July 28, 2010 at 5:18 am

    Thank you Melb(a) Lynne
    I must say the fabulous vibrance of your personality shines beautifully in your writing! I feel your energy and exuberance and I love your stories. Taking away the odd capital letter has in no way changed your lovliness and passion. Here is an idea – I read in a book about women in leadership and there was a story about an amazing high profile person who was describing a word to the wise from her grandmother – “put on your Sunday best every day and you will feel confident, now go look in the mirror, and take off one piece of jewelery and now you will feel powerful – you are ready now to take on the world”.

  233.  #233Siena on July 28, 2010 at 8:57 am

    Hi Lucy,

    “he wants a woman who will tolerate him cheating! Maybe he tells his story on the first date to weed out the girls who he can’t get away with cheating on.”

    You’re assuming that he will cheat!

    I’ve never cheated, but I have had boyfriends who cheated on exes in the past, and I can tell you that I didn’t assume they would cheat on me, and the reason we ended had nothing to do with cheating. I’ve also been with men who told me they cheated, and I KNEW they would cheat on me – so I didn’t stick around.

    It sounds like you are pretty sure he’s not a reformed cheater. So, in my mind, if you were to get into something with him, you would be hurting yourself.

    Since that’s the case, I wouldn’t even give him a second chance. I wouldn’t ask what he thinks – I would just walk away because I’m honoring what I believe is true.

    What do you think about that?

  234.  #234Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 9:52 am

    Siena, I wrote those last two sentences more out of frustration than what I really believe.

    But, truthfully, he didn’t give me ANY reason to believe that he WOULDN’T cheat.

    I feel weird and surprised and confused that Sirens would date a man who cheated on his wife.

    Now I feel shame — which I rarely feel anymore — and I feel judgmental and weird and snobbish about not wanting to date him. Like, who does she think she is???

    But if I wanted to be with a man who cheated on his wife, I could be with my ex-h and then my family would all be together again.

    It feels incredibly horrible — traumatic and abusive — being cheated on. I would rather be beat up physically. Would I date a man who beat his wife? It’s pretty much the same thing, in my experience.

    I feel like I am standing on a fault line that is starting to shake.

  235.  #235Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 9:54 am

    When I was ending my marriage, several people made me feel like I as bad and wrong to do so. I’m getting that feeling all over again with this guy.

  236.  #236Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 9:56 am

    I know no one here is saying that, it’s just the old feelings that are being triggered in me. 🙁

  237.  #237Siena on July 28, 2010 at 10:11 am

    “I feel weird and surprised and confused that Sirens would date a man who cheated on his wife. ”

    Him cheating on me is a deal breaker. Him cheating on a woman from his past is not necessarily one.

    (and for the record, I know I don’t need to explain – but for clarity – the men I dated who cheated didn’t cheat on wives, they weren’t married.)

  238.  #238Jacqueline on July 28, 2010 at 10:20 am

    Mel Lynne: Hey you write how you want to! It’s like the only time people were willing to call me Jacqueline and not shorten it (for 30 YEARS!!!) was when I went to massage school and they said, it’s YOUR name, we’ll use whatever you say. Very empowering – and now whenever anyone does it, I just go, I don’t go by Jackie every. single. time they say it. – periods are an emphasis thing too…..and I think we’re heavy on English lit majors here; and it’s a shame they don’t have italics or bolds on here, cuz I’d use them too. So, maybe just all caps for those few word you were capitalizing? like….IT”S OKAY with me. I know that’s supposed to be shouting, but it serves nicely to emphasize. You are adorable when you write with your accent which is there even in your writing….and we – I’m assuming for Lizzie – thought it was pretty neutral to talk about typing. so PLEASE don’t be hurt. I was a little concerned because I think maybe we’re all on here because we are pretty emotinal beings. I’m sorry if it made you feel less than, and again, you can do whatever YOU want here….and anywhere else, actually. Laugh….
    and just thanks for being here!

    Lucy – I guess that was my deal – they can SAY they won’t cheat and then still do it – that’s why it’s the lying I look for. But you are YOU and you have every right to the way you feel. Plus I think we’ve all agreed this guy is “ick.”……you can feel your way around your line; cheating is NOT okay, but it can be worked through – probably not with someone who tells you how to appear to be someone else, btw!….hitting is THE END for me. It took a long time for me to realize cheating wasn’t the worse betrayal ever – now his wishing I was another woman might be. For you, it was. And yeah, I’ve rarely been cheated on, and not married to them, anyway.

    Just trust your feelings, and I still point to how great he made you feel with a three hour first lunch date as a red flag…..waaaay too long a time and too complimentary softening you up for his “blow?” and his follow ups? sounds like a guy who’s working the system, and not right for you from your feelings.

    Hope you’ll be able to just go “next” and feel fabulous today!

    xxoo all….

  239.  #239Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 10:31 am

    It amazes me how different people can have so many different perspectives about the same thing (ANY thing, not just this).

    Cheating (and lying about it) is definitely the worst betrayal for me (short of something way bizarre, of course, like murdering my kids )

    I lived with a guy in my twenties who started hitting me and throwing me around when I refused to have an abortion — it felt awful, was an immediate deal-breaker, and I left him — but it did not feel like a betrayal. It didn’t even affect my self-esteem the way cheating did. It was easy to say, “He has an anger problem, this isn’t about me” — not so easy to say “This isn’t about me” when your husband is secretly cheating on you even though you have done nothing to warrant it.

  240.  #240Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 10:33 am

    “Plus I think we’ve all agreed this guy is “ick.”……”

    There are a couple who don’t feel that way.

  241.  #241Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 10:35 am

    It feels weird to think that feeling great with a guy on a lunch date is a red flag????

    I feel so confused!!!!!!

    I’m starting to feel like I can’t trust my feelings at ALL!

  242.  #242Jacqueline on July 28, 2010 at 10:55 am

    Hey, Lucy – I am definitely not wanting to drive you crazy! I think I did read RR say the first date should be an hour or less? if not, it’s my rule, and you end it, just like a phone call. Anyway, sometimes it was great and sometimes it made you loose your sparkle – how can that be great. I think no matter what anyone thinks, you want to go back out with him, and we’re not reassuring and he’s not reassuring and it’s making you frustrated. But what could it hurt? might bring up some more of you working through what triggers you and be a great observation of his behavior it definitely doesn’t mean you’ll marry him! lol…, I am a little bewildered but am going with you trust your feelings here and make a move to get out of your head. What do you think?

  243.  #243Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Thanks, Jacqueline. 🙂

  244.  #244Jacqueline on July 28, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Hey! I found a link to a RR post where she addresses if the GUY tells you he’s been cheated on,and what kind of message that is – and this will be “tough love” for you Lucy, but if you’re interested and it will still validate your feelings….. plus when to leave out the what do you think. Now I’m just gonna drop it with a wow, this has been a great learning experience and thanks to everyone!

  245.  #245Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 11:49 am

    Haven’t read the link yet, Jacqueline, but I just wanted to share the email I just sent him:

    “I have mixed feelings — this is the first time this issue has come up for me with a date. I really like you and I feel disappointed thinking that this may be an issue. I don’t want to be with a man who would cheat on me… and I feel afraid of that when I think of your story… I don’t want to feel unsafe with a man. What do you think?”

  246.  #246Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 11:51 am

    I’m afraid to read the link if it’s gonna be “tough love” for me, because I can’t imagine needing such a thing right now…but I’ll read it in fear and trembling….

  247.  #247Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Okay, I read it, but I don’t get why it would be “tough love” for me….?

  248.  #248Jacqueline on July 28, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Lucy, you have me grinning….fear and trembling?!!! You’ll note she says its an unconcious “push” for him to mention it – so I don’t men it’s an unconcious “push” for YOU to mention it – but since he mentioned that he’d done it….he unconciously “pushed” you first? If that makes sense….gotta actually quit reading and go do some exercise and all that stuff that makes a good life, but will check in/on you later, and hope you are just more enlightened than ever!!


  249.  #249Daria on July 28, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Oh my god Lucy what a great and clear and soft email yay I like how u made clear and non blaming . Ok I really like how it works together to have a soft feel

  250.  #250Jacqueline on July 28, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    oh, the tough love part….is where she says when we’ve been cheated on we always make it about US not being enough. Hope you’ve moved past that being the expanding boundaried siren that you are!!

  251.  #251Daria on July 28, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    That is just a great email. I really like how it’s put together and how it starts with mixed feelings and ends with unsafe


  252.  #252Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    “she says when we’ve been cheated on we always make it about US not being enough. Hope you’ve moved past that being the expanding boundaried siren that you are!!”

    Yes, she is exactly right about that — that’s part of what is so devastating — it took several years of therapy to move past that, but I did — I have a phenomenal therapist!!!

  253.  #253Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    Daria, your comments about the email mean SO much to me! Thank you! I really studied the suggestions you came up with, and then focused in on exactly what my true feelings are.

    Thanks so much for your help — all of you!!

  254.  #254Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    Here is his response:

    Hi Lucy. Thanks for the email. Nice to hear back from you. I am glad you really like me. I really like you too!

    I can understand your mixed feelings. I told you about it (me cheating on my wife) in order to be TOTALLY honest and open with you. Since it happened – I have confessed my sin, have been forgiven and have repented (turned away) from it. I realize that you may be fearful that I might do it again because I did it in the past, but know that I cheated on my wife as an escape mechanism from her, someone who gave me ZERO respect and affirmation after our very happy first 15-20 years of marriage.

    I have moved on and am a very different man since 2004 (6 years ago) when I did what I did (cheating on my wife). There are several people in my new life (fellow Christians, business associates, etc.) but also people from my old life (old frien ds that knew my life) that would say I am a ‘changed’ man from the old (2004) Jerry.

    Thanks for sharing with me that you don’t want to feel unsafe with a man. I realize that any woman places a high importance on that…in feeling safe and secure in a relationship with her man. Feeling safe with a man can have many dimensions. But this is something you will have to figure out that I can surely provide you as I hope we continue to get to know one another. J


    I feel

    good! that he is not brushing me off

    heard and understood

    somewhat reassured

    However, this part — “I cheated on my wife as an escape mechanism from her, someone who gave me ZERO respect and affirmation after our very happy first 15-20 years of marriage” — feels BAD.

    I feel suspicious and distrustful. From very happy for 15 years to zero respect and affirmation????

    Why would she all of a sudden stop respecting him? I feel suspicious. I also feel scared. It feels too much like my marriage — I lost respect for my husband after 15 years because I learned about his secret life. A woman doesn’t lose respect after that length of time for NO REASON.

    I also feel very shaky hearing “escape mechanism.”

    And, bottom line, he is still making it “her fault.” Like Tinque said — and I agree with her — if he was having problems with her, address the problems, try to solve them, and then if all else fails, “finish old business before you start new.”

    It is too easy to find a “reason” to cheat — ANYONE can come up with a reason to cheat no matter how good a spouse the other person is because NOBODY IS PERFECT!!!

    I wouldn’t respect him, either, if he was the type of man who would cheat on me as an escape mechanism.

    I don’t respect him for not taking 100% of the responsibility for cheating.

    I don’t want a man I can’t respect.

    I feel guilty for not respecting him.

    I feel shame.

    I don’t want to feel guilt or shame.

    I love my guilt and shame. (not really, but I will.)

  255.  #255Daria on July 28, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    Lucy – I felt good reading this and also felt judgemental about the part with his wife.

    My guess is he is obviously really triggered by that time – and it feels weird to see it in a man.

    I would feel concerned and a lil weird reading that, and I would still feel open to seeing him…

    is this a mirror? is it a mirror that you “blame” the cheater… husband and/or random man … and not take responsibility for your part of what led to the cheating?

    (triggering questions)

    all of us think we are right in these ways –

    men shouldn’t cheat

    women shouldn’t give zero respect and affection


    “but i didn’t do anything, it was all him.”

    “i just had an escape mechanism, she was putting me thru hell”


  256.  #256Daria on July 28, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    on facebook theres a

    “Intelligent, classy, well-educated women who say “F*ck” a lot”


  257.  #257Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    “is this a mirror? is it a mirror that you “blame” the cheater… husband and/or random man … and not take responsibility for your part of what led to the cheating?”

    Daria, I agree with Tinque that there is NEVER justification for cheating. The one cheating is 100% responsible for the decision to cheat — whatever his/her reasons are.

    I could have easily cheated on my ex-h, and justified it, and many people would have said, “oh, yes, he definitely ‘led’ to you doing that!” — but I still had a choice, and chose not to cheat.

    I don’t believe in the phrase “what led to the cheating.” It’s always a choice.

    Of course I was not perfect in my marriage — nobody is, ever. But I am 0% responsible for his cheating.

    My only responsibility for the cheating was that *I* chose to marry him, and so, on some unconscious level, I chose a man who would cheat.

  258.  #258Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    My ex-h’s cheating had more to do with “escaping the challenges and responsibilities of real life” than about anything I did or didn’t do. He was cheating from day one, before I even had a chance to be a “reason” to cheat. I just didn’t find out til 15 years later.

  259.  #259Daria on July 28, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    Hmm… Lucy… does this feel triggering?

    I know I felt triggered reading what I wrote and your response.

    I don’t want to blame anyone for someone else cheating.

    I don’t want to blame anyone for anything. Really even for cheating.

    I think this is something to look at — as “triggered and vehement” as I’m guessing you are about this issue being a shared responsibility… it may be that this man or someone may have a similar intensitiy in their conviction in their beliefs

    This trigger has come up for healing so what is there to heal about it? is there a part that is not embraced that wants to be ?

  260.  #260Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    Btw, I feel angry reading, “take responsibility for your part of what led to the cheating.”

    It feels the same as asking a rape victim to take responsibility for her part of what led to the rape.

    Or blaming a battered woman for whatever she did to “ask for it.”

  261.  #261Daria on July 28, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    Lucy – what you are saying about your ex-husband and it being about him, rather mirrors what this man says about his ex-wife to me.

    That’s what I’m referring to. The conviction about that person.

    you are totally justified in your belief.

    and this man, he may feel totally justified in his…

    how can this trigger be healed?

  262.  #262Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    Right, there is a sense in which I don’t “blame” a person for cheating, because they are just doing what their unconscious programming leads them to do in the situation in which they find themselves — they are unconscious, unaware, unenlightened, and in that sense, are not “at fault.”

    It is better for all of us to be as aware and conscious as we can be so that we don’t hurt ourselves and each other. I feel concerned that garden guy is still “unconscious” around this issue.

  263.  #263Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    Well, I think the point is, if HIS conviction is that cheating is sometimes justified, and MY conviction is that cheating is never justified, then we are at a stalemate.

    Sure, a wife beater can say, “She pushed me into bashing her face in.”

    But I personally don’t agree with that philosophy. So if what you are saying — “what you are saying about your ex-husband and it being about him, rather mirrors what this man says about his ex-wife to me” — is true, then, I agree with myself, but not with him.

  264.  #264Daria on July 28, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Lucy – cool…thats the logical nuts and bolts of it. but this isn’t really about agreeing or being mental…

    on an energetic level this is a trigger that has come up to be healed?

    so what is here for you that wants to be embraced and that can make you feel more whole?

  265.  #265Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    The trigger is — people being treated badly and then being blamed for it — “you deserved it” — etc. It’s a social justice issue.

  266.  #266Daria on July 28, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Trigger – Do you feel concerned that you are still “unconscious” around this issue?

  267.  #267Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    I feel concerned that I am being given a situation where there is already an awareness that this man cheated — so it is conscious — whereas, when I married a cheater, I did not know it, so I chose a cheater unconsciously. I feel astounded that I am even considering dating a man who I KNOW cheated. It’s like, the first time I chose a man like that it was an unconscious choice, so I’m thinking why the heck would I make a CONSCIOUS choice for such a man?

  268.  #268Daria on July 28, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Hmmm…. I personally feel triggered myself now.

    I feel triggered to defend men I know who are/have “cheated” in their relationship

    I’m reminded of me “cheating” – not really – in highschool… my boyfriend at the time wanted to be exclusive and I didn’t… and he was so into me. I felt smothered and I didn’t feel turned on by him,

    everytime I talked to him about seeing others, we would be the same the next day

    I didn’t want to hurt him, so I continued to see him.

    Then one day I got drunk and kissed another guy.


    Then there’s a woman I know who is with her husband and doesn’t love him, and she cheats on him. She wants to move away and divorce but has no money. He was abusive to her in the past.


    I feel defensive. I don’t want to blame people for cheating. Yet I expect a man to NOT cheat. And I don’t want to cheat or be cheated on. I feel confused about this.

    I feel pouty… I love my pouts. I love my confusion.

  269.  #269Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    So, I guess it feels like I am “conscious” around this issue now, but something is trying to tempt me, drag me back into unconsciousness around it.

    Oh! That’s exactly what happened when I had the “gut feeling” about calling off the wedding! I had a subconscious awareness that something was off, but I was talked out of it, and when that happened, i buried my fears and suspicions so deeply to the point where I completely forgot that I “tried to call it off” — until 10 years into the marriage when I suddenylt rememebred. Long story, but I gtg now.

  270.  #270Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    If you went through my marriage, I think your confusion would have cleared up.

  271.  #271Melb(a) Lynne on July 28, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Jacqueline, thanks for your response, i think i was just feeling that i like (& have been ‘working on’!!) accepting & loving the ‘me ness’ of me; & i like to ‘express’ in a way that sometimes shows how i’m feeling (just like other pple use diff styles here)… & since I know Lizzie not meaning any offence at all, i’ll just adapt to what suits…
    but see just SAYING THAT, makes me feel unauthentic, & ‘stuffing down’ my feelings, as Rori would say; & feeling that i’m not even being able to be ‘accepted as me’ on this forum… i’m not ok as i am??… (let alone my opinions, if i may have something that differs from the ususal??)….
    i’m feeling triggered & feeling bad for being/feeling!! ‘upset’ over being given ‘typing advice’!!!!…..Lynne

  272.  #272Melb(a) Lynne on July 28, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Lucy, re ‘marriage pre-intuition’ – when i was in jewellery store looking at engagement rings, for my 1st marriage (i happened to be on my own)…. I fainted!!! (i was in my 20’s, fit & healthy, never fainted in my life before)…
    I think that was a sign!!! If only I ‘listened’ to it!!! lol!
    2 kids (2yrs old & 3yrs old) & 8 years later I finally escaped from an angry & (mainly emotionally, yelling etc but physically threatening & manhandled me once) abusive husband… who at the time, after separation, said to me “I understand how that guy in New Zealand killed himself & his kids after separation”…
    And I was ‘letting him see’ his kids then!!!
    Talk about stress for me… (among heaps of other stuff)…. the things one goes through….
    PS: 2nd husband, not ‘angry’ per se, but ‘deceptive’.(charming fellow to have dinner with, btw Lucy..)…… I then went through (his version of) the whole ‘cheating’ scenario… with him… la de dahhh..

  273.  #273Nikita on July 28, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    Hi sweet pea,

    I feel unsure how to answer the last question….sounds like you’ve worked it with him….how are you feeling after your night together and revelations regarding resentment and stuffing…etc. ?

  274.  #274Sweetpea on July 28, 2010 at 4:58 pm


    I’m actually feeling a lot more comfortable & at ease with him again. He treats me really well & I think that’s a great sign of the progress I’ve made using the tools. No more losers. Yay!

    I am incredibly attracted to the tech at work though. Even talking to him on the phone I get all tingly inside. That’s a good thing, because in the past, when I was seeing someone I didn’t even notice other guys. I don’t think that bodes well for Steppin’ Up Man becoming Forever Man, but I’m ok with that. And, you just never know, really, do you?

    For now, I’m pretty content with the way things are. The nature of life though, is that things change. I guess that means I have “I feel ecstatic” to look forward to, then.

    Thanks for your feedback.

  275.  #275Nikita on July 28, 2010 at 5:18 pm


    I love feeling tingly, it helps me feel safe and excited about my present and my future. If my LI is forever great! If he’s not great…so and so gives me tingly feelings too so it’s okay….I’m ok….I feel so deliciously alive with possibilities and I am just thrilled to be enjoying the ride 😉

  276.  #276Daria on July 28, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    Melba Lynne- I think ur writing was bomb ass creative. It was kinda hard to read… But so what

    People tried to get me a while back to stop using cuss words and I didn’t want to. Welcome to siren island. Triggers. What makes YOU feel good beautiful goddess?

    Practice going for that here where it is safe and that’s what this place is for.


  277.  #277Daria on July 28, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    Ps your writing is still hella hard to read. So what


    What do You want?

  278.  #278Sweetpea on July 28, 2010 at 6:25 pm


    Exactly. Well put.


    I feel confused as to why the big debate over Garden Guy. Ultimately it’s your decision whether you want to see if there are further lessons with him. It feels clear to me that you’re not sold on having him as part of your rotation. If there’s something to be gleaned here & you don’t know what it is, or don’t want to hear it from him, nothing says another CD won’t be able to give you the same therapy. If you don’t feel utterly safe with him, do you have to go out with him? Perhaps you could try one of Siena’s tricks & wonder what therapy there is to be gotten from him, get the message & move on?

  279.  #279Sweetpea on July 28, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    Lucy, I meant get the message quickly & move on. Cheating is a big trigger for me too, but I trust myself enough to make better decisions now, that I don’t feel so concerned about it anymore. Is there anything else going on with this guy that may be causing you mistrust? Maybe there’s an underlying message that you’re missing because you’re so triggered by the cheating? Just bouncing stuff around here.

  280.  #280Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    i’m just processing it on here, sweetpea. I trust myself to make better decisions now too and haven’t felt concerned about the issue one bit before this. if it had come up theoretically – instead of with an actual date – i probably would have had a boundary “i won’t date a guy who has cheated on his wife” – i never really consciously established that boundary though (because i just haven’t thought about it). so now that it has actually come up and caught me by surprise I am processing my feelings around it.

  281.  #281Jacqueline on July 28, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Melb(a) Lynne…..I think you should return to your typing style that fits you!! and use this forum to further your authentic self! People can just make the effort to read through it -helluva style, rofl….and it seems like it’s your time to shine and be YOU!! and yeah, it is scary posting here – anyone can disagree with any or everything you say and some of it might hit hard, but that’s what we’re here for yes? Growing in our boundaries and messages and communications, etc. What do you think?

    What WAS interesting to me was on one of the posts I read today Rori told someone typing in all caps that if that was her personality style, she was probably overfunctioning.

    So, I guess it’s an authenticity issue – but I don’t want you to feel bullied here in ANY way…none of us, actually, and hey, I’m sooooo sophisticated and I love dropping the “f” bomb – but I also know I’ve done it to my detriment at my profession. Oh, well, sometimes authenticity costs.

    Lucy, hug…I’m out of the cheating discussion, and the who’s to blame convo is just circling endlessly, so you know it’s your trigger, conciously; and I guess we’re all just waiting to see what you’re going to now – boy action like – do with it/him.

    Best all…..


  282.  #282Alicia on July 28, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    I like this article ALOT!! When I was weaker in my faith, I use to turn to pychics for some type of consolation and calm my mind.. I was lacking faith and patience with myself. I had them tell me some things that were true, some things that were sooooo way off and never happened but I was looking for anything to help me feel better in that moment. This my sound spititual.. but, really, only “God” (whatever that means to you) knows the future…. for lack of better words.. “the devil” knows present and past.. but no one can curse your future.. Unless you give it power to do so..

    Expectation, is like a placebo pill, it works 40% of the time.. so be careful what you allow to put your belief and mind into. I would say you are as entitled to love, healing and happiness as long as you believe you deserve it and want to receive it..

    I just read the best book ever and it’s on the New York times Best seller list.

    is the name of it..

    I understand so many things better now.. why we withdraw at the healing stages….. It’s one of the BEST books for gaining wisdom on stages of intimacy, and post traumatic stress…. that I have ever read… I finally realized I’m a survior of child abuse and why I am the way I am in relationships.. it’s intense but AWESOME!!! 🙂 I got it from couselor.. check it out.. you’ll be amazed, if you come from that background..

  283.  #283Alicia on July 28, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    The name is… Trauma and Healing after politcal terror and domestic abuse.. AWESOME READ! Google it.

  284.  #284Sweetpea on July 28, 2010 at 7:21 pm


    I gotcha. I’m trying to put myself in your shoes – with it not being hypothetical. Then I thought. Well, I was sorta in your shoes. LV Guy who was supposed to be coming here, but then didn’t, who I chatted with for about 6 weeks cheated on the girl he was seeing just a few months before we started chatting. I found out by reading some stuff on the internet though, he didn’t come right out & tell me, so I never had the chance to have any dialogue with him about it. I never did decide whether it was a dealbreaker or not because once he found out he’s not coming here anytime soon, we just sorta faded out. Hmmm.

  285.  #285Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 7:21 pm

    i am so effin mad and sad right now and the nv’s are in full force- in car with kids and ex-h to go to a lake house for two days (his treat) – my kids and i are in a huge fight with each other – this ALWAYS happens the few times my ex is with us all!! my kids and i get along very well except when he’s around – and then they laugh at me anxd make fun of me (and he does too) and then when i get upset about it they get mad that i’m “so sensitive.” and then i feel like a horrible bitchy crybaby mother

  286.  #286Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    NV: i’m like a demon-child who should lock myself in a room somehwere so nobody has to put up with me because i am so messed up and ugh ppl can’t stand to be around me not even my own family i am the horrible irritating pathetic worthless senseless stupid ridiculous girl with the curl. lump in my throat heavy heavy heart teardrops in my brain and chest but not my eyes. daria you can roll your eyes if you want to i don’t blame you i am having a total pity party all by myself in the silent car.

  287.  #287Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    i think my last comment went to moderation. i feel so sad. i realized that he – my ex-h – has never ever stuck up for me, in any situation ever. 🙁

  288.  #288Sweetpea on July 28, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    Lucy – I feel bad for you. My first thought was “she needs to establish boundaries.” Have you ever told your ex-h if he can’t at least encourage your kids to respect you, he can count you out of the family outings? This sounds on the verge of emotional abuse to me. And like he’s encouraging your kids to treat you badly. So not cool.

  289.  #289Tmizz on July 28, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    Hi Alicia –

    Great comment. And thanks for the book recommendation. I tried looking it up. Is this the one you mean?:


  290.  #290Daria on July 28, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    Lucy I’ve had that pity party yesterday with my mom. I love my feeling of worthlessness… And I’m even more than that getting in touch with feeling my feeling of abandon. When someone says bye to me or doesn’t want to spend time w me. I feel excited that I’ve started identifying this feeling and can now love myself when I feel it.

    Right now I’m feeling an anxious feeling ilove my anxiousness and what’s under it shame fear guilt sadness anger numbness .

    I love all of me tho I feel fear worry and nonacceptance.

    I lovey worry.

  291.  #291Daria on July 28, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    I feel uhoh I feel worried I have now begotten a reputation for myself as the one who comes down hard and makes people feel bad. I feel disappointed, powerless, guilty, self blaming. I feel the nilumbness coming over my thoughts. I must deserve this bad reputation. I am bad. Being myself is harsh uncaring and bad. I feel weird.

  292.  #292Sweetpea on July 28, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    Lucy, this is going to sound harsh, but this feels very serious to me. I believe I’ve seen posts that you have sons. Even if you don’t, I believe you owe it to your kids to put your foot down & not allow them to treat you that way. They are obviously feeling encouraged by their dad to treat you badly. So I say, he’s where you need to start. Put the shoe back on the foot it fits & don’t let them try to make you wear one that doesn’t fit.

    At least you know you want a guy who’s got your back in a forever man…

  293.  #293Lucy on July 28, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    thx sweetpea. trouble is, he sees it all from their perspective not mine! and wow! – just remembered something garden guy said! – “My ex-wife didn’t respect me b/c she wanted me to discipline the kids and i tried to explain to her that my role, my personality, was to nurture them and that she could be the one to discipline them.” wow! this could not be a coincidence could it?!

  294.  #294Sweetpea on July 28, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    Lucy, it does make you think perhaps Garden Guy’s ex-w had reasons for disrespecting him, doesn’t it? Interesting.

    Obviously it is a coincidence, but very ironic. I wonder what you’re supposed to be getting out of this. I know my comment on boundaries just posted, but do you think it’s as simple as practicing boundary setting in what sounds like a very familiar environment?

  295.  #295Nikita on July 28, 2010 at 8:40 pm


    Would you consider GGuy feminine or masculine energy and same question for children’s father?

  296.  #296Mermaid on July 28, 2010 at 10:13 pm


    I’ve had similar experiences… ex husband was emotionally abusive, though I didn’t realize it at the time (weird, huh). He also cheated on me. As well, a lot of his cheating had to do with escaping his reality and wanting to live in la-la land that he made up and someone who didn’t know him would believe. I do however, believe that there are 2 people in a realtionship and there are things that I could have done differently in our marriage. I do not feel that these things would have prevented him from cheating nor prevented our divorce, but I do take responsibility for my part in our marriage and of the ways I may have been able to meet his needs better.

    Being cheated on my someone you love feels yucky, it is the ultimate rejection and yes the feelings of not being good enough were overwhelming!

    A year or so after my divorce I met Prince Charming! He was sophisiticated, handsome, sweet, attentive, sexy, wealthy, etc. You name it, it was it! I was addicted to him! It was a whirlwind, beginning when he flew me to the islands to spend the weekend with him…. I thought he was my soul mate, who just happended to be separated. By the time I figured things out, I was hooked and he was married and cheating on his wife with ME. How did I get into this situation. I wanted to believe that she just didn’t understand him like I did, blah, blah, blah. I also couldn’t believe I was seeing him!!

    The interesting thing is, the more I continued to see him, the more I started to see him for what he was. He was the closest thing to my ex husband that I could have found. He lied and he cheated, the 2 things I hated the most and that hurt the most from my marriage. As the newness and infatuation wore off….I was able to see that I wasn’t attracted to someone who lied, or cheated. I wasn’t attracted to someone I didn’t trust.

    Lucy, it’s your decision if you want to continue seeing him. My advice is to trust your gut instinct when it speaks to you.

  297.  #297Melb(a) Lynne on July 29, 2010 at 1:34 am

    Daria, thanks for your comments, don’t feel bad; maybe is as simple as ‘can never please all the people all the time’, & I’ve noticed your comments (so going well re feeling messages [positive feeling symbol, whatever that is!!) seem to be you wanting to assist, rather then make anyone feel worse.. no1 can predict what ‘type’ of opinion (or typing lol!!) will cause consternation with some1 else – who’s had so different life experience/ diff childhood experience /diff personality /diff way/s of expressing said personality….etc etc.. Keep being u (& keep Rori’s ‘water wheel’ flowing over you 🙂 )
    Thanks Jacqueline too, the trigger’s been Really Interesting for me… thoughts back to the past where some1 never accepted me for me (I felt)… & wanted just to ‘change’ bit/s… that made me feel bad then.. I Just Wanted to Be Me … Not ‘fixed up’ so that I would be ‘more suitable’ in their eyes – I like/d, the uniqueness of me, not every1 has to though, I understand that… Not sure how I heal this stuff???? Lynne

  298.  #298Daria on July 29, 2010 at 3:04 am

    Melba Lynne – thank you, I feel good reading what you wrote to me.

    I feel excited maybe I can point out something to help heal this stuff.

    When you feel triggered from the past, practice identifying the feeling and feeling it in your body – writing about it here while doing so is great – this is called RIFFING. Then tell and write that you love the feelings, and you, and where you feel them in your body.

    This is avery crucial part of getting to love ourselves…

    here’s Rori’s post on how to do riffing

    doing this WILL HEAL this stuff… and just keep the intent that you want to heal it and its all good!

  299.  #299Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:05 am


    I’m sorry my issues caused you discomfort. I opened my heart wide open on here recently, more deeply than I’ve ever opened it other than with Ryan, and I felt really slammed by one particular poster (and no, it wasn’t you, Daria).

    I really pulled back, wondering if I wanted to put my neck on the chopping block again. I was raw over Ryan with some super-deep processing when it happened, so it was like having an infected wound punched.

    I have healed and sealed up quite a bit in the past week or so, and everyone’s support, especially Tinque pointing out to me that if someone is harsh, it reflects their issues, not mine, really helped for me to get it in perspective and move to a healthier place.

    I don’t feel any need to rehash it. Please just know I am all right now and actually doing much better. And that some of my posts that may have felt weird to you were not really intended for everyone. I really just want to let it all go now and move on.

    I feel happy that my Siren friends are my friends, worldwide! I have never felt this emotionally supported in my life, and I appreciate you all endlessly!

  300.  #300Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:12 am


    I finally got caught up on reading this thread, and I feel really sad and concerned for you. I want to cry when I hear how your kids are treating you.

    What I see from a bird’s-eye view, having just read most of this thread, is that Garden Guy is bringing up major places in you from your past marriage that need healing.

    If I were a counselor, and if you are open to my advice, I would and will tell you this: I think what would be very healing for you, and healing is really what we all want above all else here, is to go ahead and date Garden Guy, while doing some deep, deep work to uproot your betrayal, distrust, and pain of your exhusband cheating on you.

    If Garden Guy is mature and loving enough to be a part of that process, it could be 10X more powerful!!

    When I read his second reply, I felt very secure in it and impressed. When I read your feelings about it, I saw quite clearly this is really far, far more about your past deep wounds than it is about needing to draw a boundary to block out more pain and/or Garden Guy.

    Remember how Rori always says that this is about free therapy? My goodness! You have a terrific free therapist right before you! Depending on your feelings of acceptance around him, maybe little by little, you could open up to him about your wounds from your marriage.

    I even see this as being therapy for the both of you! He could heal from his failed marriage and you could heal from yours…in each other’s arms!

    To continue to date him would not put you in harm’s way. But it could be a rare opportunity to find love, comfort, and healing in the arms of a man who has been there.

    How do you feel about that?

    Much Love,

  301.  #301Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 9:29 am


    Are you on the trip with your family now? I really hope you set a boundary to simply not spend time around your exhusband from now on. That is so unhealthy for you, and it makes me want to cry. My Dad used to turn a cold shoulder to my Mom, and she would cry when he came to family functions after their divorce.

    One time my Dad challenged me to resolve the conflicts between my two brothers and me. I said, “I feel uncomfortable with you telling me to do that when you treat Mom so coldly. I really feel hurt when you cold shoulder her, and I cry when I see her cry. I challenge you to resolve your conflicts with Mom!”

    He amazed me by agreeing, and from then on, he was polite and friendly to her! One time, she even came on a trip to upstate NY and stayed at his house with his new wife, and she had a nice time!

    Anyway, back to you, Lucy. Love yourself and protect yourself by refusing to be around him. And I agree with Sweetpea to not allow your children to tease and disrespect you. If you approached it gently with them, not harshly, they might be more likely to see the raw pain in you that causes you to react so badly around him.


  302.  #302Ankita on July 29, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Hi Brenda

    I know dad has serious emotional issues… He is suffering from schizophrenia…..
    Though I never talk to him about it, coz I know it affects him a lot…
    My grandparents did call him mad and that did hurt him to the core…

    He wants my safety, but is hurting me in the process….

    Mom cannot leave him right now, after all, she doesn’t earns, and has nowhere to go.

    And I haven’t yet told Vishal about it, first I wanna make sure that he’s worthy of knowing my dad’s secret. I don’t want him to make fun of him. But ya, some of my trusted friends do know about it.

    I have decided that as far as love is concerned, am not gonna listen to him, I am gonna put myself first……

    Am an adult, and he should better deal with it…..

  303.  #303Brenda on July 29, 2010 at 11:08 am


    You know my exboyfriend, Ryan, had schizophrenia? I know a lot about it, and I know it is curable. For starters, check out the website, schizophrenia defeated.


  304.  #304Alicia on July 29, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    Hi Tmizz….

    Here is the link it’s a different one…

    The New York Times.. said it one of the best pychiatric works publishes since Freud.. It’s goes thru the stages of recovery and how shows you how the counselors are taught.. from private to group therapy.. They cover the recovery stages from memory recall, withdraw and humilation, to building safety and trust..

    Also, it helps you understand Post Traumatic Stress and the recovery techniques.. Alot of Circular Dating – though not in the book… makes sense. As use the same method for healing with some war vets.. in much different circumstances..

    Plus, it very interesting to read about the holocaust survivors, war vets, and a range of domestic abuse stages of healing… It’s a FANTASTIC source of insight and deepened my understanding greatly..

    I must say it is triggering but, healing and well worth the read.. It took me about a week to finish..

    Take Care,

  305.  #305Alicia on July 29, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    Here is the link it’s a different one…

    (Take 2)

    This makes better sense.. haha let me retype a few things..

    “”The New York Times.. said it one of the best pychiatric works published since Freud””..

    It’s goes thru the stages of recovery.They cover the recovery stages from memory recall, withdraw and humilation, to building safety and trust..

    Also, it helps you understand Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and the recovery techniques..

    (Alot of Circular Dating – though not in the book… makes more sense to me now). As they use the same method for healing with some war vets.. in much different circumstances.. as in submerging them into situations that are under thier control but, trigger war memories.. or tramatic episode.. yet in a safe enviroment until it becomes less and less fearful and they feel a sense of control and empowement in the scenerio.. (make better sense? 😉

    Plus, it very interesting to read about the holocaust survivors, war vets, and a range of domestic abuse and stages of healing… It’s a FANTASTIC source of insight and deepened my understanding greatly..

    I must say it is triggering but, healing and well worth the read.. It took me about a week to finish..

    Take Care,

  306.  #306Tmizz on July 29, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    Thanks, Alicia! That looks like a great resource! 🙂

  307.  #307Jacqueline on July 30, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    A story on Yahoo mentions a book by Pat Allen that was published in 1995 that also advises saying you want to be married in your ad AND dating at least 3 men! wow….it took us 20 years to catch up? grin…

    I wonder what Garden guy/Lucy are doing? and Hi, Brenda, Daria, Lizzie and MLyynne….

    have a great weekend!

  308.  #308minakshi on July 30, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Dear Sirens:

    Wonderful, insightful, deep, passionate, informative posts. Thank you so much.

    Just a quick rewind to the original blog entry by Rori. I came across this song recently. Went to check it out on YouTube and found tens of comments by men saying that the singer is able to put into words what a man really thinks and wants from his woman.

    Alors, voila: Musiq Soulchild & ‘Someone’. Check it out. I want my man to say exact these things about me:

  309.  #309Melb(a) Lynne on July 30, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Hi Jacqueline, havagoodweekend to you too (Aussie slang, cos we tend to join words alot together in speech, or just speak fast!! a guy put a book out,years ago, that would have a sentence as a word eg “djwanacatchaflm?’… it’s not so ‘innovative’ these days with txt spk!!) haha! lol!! but was fun at the time, even us Aussie’s had trouble ‘translating’ some of it!! lol!!
    What do you do if you don’t Want to be married?? ie my aim is a long term committed relationship, but I’d be incredibly ‘fearful’ of ever living with a guy again (2 marriages, loss of lots of money/shared assets, 54 is old to keep ‘starting again’ financially & emotionally – the Emotional Upheaval of both ‘stopping living together situations’ was Dreadful… the financial stuff leaves me still working my arse off)…. i’ve figured/Decided that I Cannot Make a Mistake with a Relationship Again… that’s why i’m here… lol!!!! to learn!!!!……

  310.  #310Melb(a) Lynne on July 30, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    PS: i’m meeting Guy 2 (teacher guy, Greg) for 2nd time today, Sat, & ‘looking forward to it’… i’ve had trouble with my ‘coffee dates’ (60+ over a few years) to ‘get some interest by me’ for more that 1 coffee.. Guy 1 (social worker, txt guy, Ian) gone off radar since I’ve ‘leant back’.. no more do I contact & at this point seems like ‘he’s drifted off’… oh well.. Guy 3 (emailling engineer).. sounds nice, maybe coffee next week… gotta keep things ticking along… lol!!! (or is it Desperate?? see post on other site… I need Encouraging Answer to that question!! or is that in itself Needy for even asking that??!! now i’m doing my head in…. haha…)

  311.  #311Jacqueline on July 30, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    Lynne – wow I JUST posted that on an amazon discussion – What is the Purpose of Marriage; and I emailed Rori, too. Marriage is NOT my goal; having been very close to bankrupted by my first and only one – the only way I got my credit back, sadly – was after my mom died I got some joint cards. It was a very long haul and would have been impossible otherwise. I literally could not afford to file bankruptcy. So, the guy I’m with now – after 2 years of on line lunch dates… really pretty great. We live together well- few arguements, ability to resolve them, rarely intrude on each other’s space, a warm, comfortable, safe kind of secure love. VS a crazy attachment/obsession I had for 10 years…lol…

    BUT, his credit is crap – and he has child support, etc. We just managed to get a used car lot to give him a truck last week – well sell him one. And I think it was due to me being there, although I didn’t sign anything for him.

    and check above – I did do a background including criminal check on him, etc. but it was still hard to let him anywhere near my personal info….stolen id issues, etc. very hard, but it’s been worth it, and I guess I’ve maybe worked through some trust issues. I have this whole amazing story how everyone in my life went crazy, and totally were not who I’d thought they were for 15 years or so summer before last – it’s unbelievable! And I’m surprised I didn’t get PTSD or something, I did get some hermit like tendencies and a real issue with protecting my credit.

    So, what if “girlfriend” is good enough? I mean, do I dump the guy because his financial statement isn’t as good as some mean, old, controlling guy who wishes I were skinnier is??? lol….

    I’m wondering the same.

    And I speak spanish, they not only run their words together they don’t go up and down – like how you go up on a question. Actually after you described your individuality in how you typed, I kind of enjoyed reading it. I talk really fast, too – well I think really fast, the talking is just kind of keeping up.

    and NO it is not desperate, it’s the ONLY way you’ll ever find progress. Most of them are a waste of time, or an OMG moment – THIS is what there is to date at 54?!!! (I’m 52 but look 40ish – mostly got asked out by 30 – 45 year olds, my bf is 47 – I found going younger was sooooo much better!)

    Email is nice but you have to interact in person; sometimes I think emailers are just energy vamps actually. Get in, get out….see who sticks. And the first guy sounds like a lot of feminine energy maybe….
    anyway you are a Winner Who Love Herself enough to Invest in Her Future!!!

    Remember that as you lean back and “dance!”

    Smell the smells, breathe the air and relax into your chair, and just notice who is across from you and be curious about them!!

    Good luck!


  312.  #312Rori Raye on July 31, 2010 at 11:11 am

    minakshi – I love this video and this song….thanks…Love, Rori

  313.  #313Melb(a) Lynne on July 31, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Hi Jacqueline, thanks! yeah i agree, at this point alot of guys in their 50’s (& some in 40’s) really not ‘looked after themselves’!!… i also look in my 40’s, i run (jog lol!!) & am in pretty good shape (apart from chronic fatigue syndrome 🙁 , v low energy), so am open to guys in their 40’s (if they not too ‘energetic’ for me lol!!)… I think (I mean feel!) that altho my aim is Not Marriage (or co-habitating, at this stage), circumstances (ie the Right guy) may alter that… Now though, having had Mr (Charming)Deceptive (who says what you want to hear, then does what he wants to do!!!) as my 2nd Husband I’ve learnt that people will stay together , not for the bit of paper, not for the kids (altho some do) , but Mainly Truely Cos THEY WANT TO… & that’s the type of partner I Want.. someone who (i) Wants to & (ii) Has the Skills/Ability/Wisdom to be Able to, Go the Distance… Lynne
    PS Greg (teacher) was great yesterday, we had fun, i felt comfortable & excited at same time!! … & we’ve organised to meet again, next week end… thumb/s def up thus far :-)… oh & he’s already said he’s ‘bad with money’… (hmm… just like ex No2!! but Hey, He Isn’t Him, is He????)….

  314.  #314Melb(a) Lynne on July 31, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    Hi Jacqueline (& any others who may have some insightful/objective comments on this Feeling Message below; since I’m Not Objective generally re Ian [the Social Worker/ Counsellor, prev teacher, who ‘doesn’t want a relationship’ [difficult kid issues ie F/T custody, F/T job plus 2nd job..] & he did Say So all along, I Know, my Bad 🙁 )…
    As he’s ‘drifted off’ & me ‘not contacted’ him for almost 5 weeks… he’s txtd a couple times, & I responded; but no initiation from him.. 🙁 I decided to write this feeling message… [we’ve ‘seen each other’ regularly since April 09… since April 10 I’ve been ‘leaning back’ farther & farther.. now he’s…?? & maybe I AM Angry, altho i havent’ mentioned that]:

    “Hi Ian
    I’m feeling sad that you don’t contact me…
    I’m feeling confused, I thought we were ‘friends’…since nothing else was allowed to unfold… yet why does my friend not contact me ‘to catch up on stuff’, ‘have a chat’….
    I feel vibrant when you’re with me, enjoy your company & felt that some moments together amazingly & magically transcended the blandness of ordinary existence..
    I’m feeling disappointed cos when I felt most ‘connection’ ‘sharing’ with you, was when I opened myself & my heart up to you physically… only to again be told..’i do this with other people/person as well’.. that made me feel demeaned & not precious to you at all… & now that I’ve chosen ‘not to share so much of me with you’ (to keep myself safe).. you appear to ‘not care’ that i’m alive… (ie i don’t ‘feel the love’ [friendship?], haha, when someone chooses to contact me so infrequently..) So what was that ‘connection’? a fantasy in my head? & just some superficial physical pleasure that suited you..? I just feel strange, disconnected & weird… (one could almost say wtf….!! lol!)…
    I felt odd that you ‘liked’ me to be ‘dating’ (as I am also now)… & meeting guy/s that I may/have become very close to….
    I feel judged/criticised, that you see my choice of ‘meeting people/guys’ as some ‘desperation’ on my part…?
    I feel happy that I’m creating happiness in my life (in many ways & including) opening myself up to people who appreciate me, by experiencing life and men as an open, available & compassionate human being… not hiding in my shell posing restriction & rules on whomever crosses my path… (which brings to mind lol!! one of my fav songs ever “Hide in Your Shell” by Supertramp, you my wanna check out the lyrics (& gr8 music!) sometime if you not already know it, fantastic song, I reckon anyway!!)…
    I feel sorry that the passion we could’ve had (i’m unable to fully open up until i feel sure the other person wants me, for me, not just for a sexual/fun time that passes the time, to appear to make life seem, temporarily, less unbearable)… was unable to evolve.. cos what happened was for sure, for me, going somewhere that could’ve been amazingly awesome in that department..
    I’m feeling understanding of your position.. as I have felt the cruelty of ‘relationship/s’… & choose not to go back to (or be part of creating) the serious/severe dysfunctions that can occur there…
    I feel confident now that i’m able to ‘take a risk’ on someone… who ‘wants a real relationship/ companion/ person to love & cherish…’ & feel glad that you showed me how to be me, how to be me whilst (i was feeling in some sense) attached… that was a great gift you gave me..
    I feel unsure of what you are looking for (yes I know you’re not ‘seeking’ anything, other than ‘freedom’ [from what, really??]… I hope you find it… (not alone forever, but with someone who enhances your life)… I thought that deep deep down everyone yearns ‘to be understood, listened to, truely accepted & loved’..?? It’s not a ‘pie in the sky’ fantasy for me anymore.. I know now i’m able to create that type of loving relationship together.. (with someone who’s wanting to, & able to as well, of course!! Lol!! Takes 2 to Tango… & we know how sexy the Tango is Lol!! 🙂 )
    Lynne x”

    I realise is a bit of a ‘stab in dark’ re comments, as no-one knows my ‘txt guy’, Ian, in the way I do… (i suppose I just ‘see’ the ‘good’ in him, & believe he’s acting out his unconscious needs, to keep himself safe… whatever…. he’s clearly ‘not available’ at present, but I just wanted to ‘express’ myself to him.. the good, the bad, & the fun…. )
    I’m attempting it to sound ’empowered’ not ‘desperate’ or ‘needy’ or… anything else negative??? …just as authentic as possible…

  315.  #315Jacqueline on July 31, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    Lynne – great!!! about the date…and the email….sounds kind of desperate about friend? do you care if I live or die….lol….the feeling messages are right ON!!!! and I love the ending paragraph….I kind of think this was a sex thing or whatever and it really won’t matter what you say to him, so if I were you…and up to it, I’d send it, see what comes back, if anything and then I’d decide like Rori says, closure is overated. I’d only send it tho if I had like almost NO investment in him answering…..if you do then maybe hold off and we – and others on here – could rework it a bit? gotta run….my guy is finally home and that feels darn good!

    Happy Sat. night, all


  316.  #316Jacqueline on July 31, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    PS…..Lynne…whatever you do, don’t send it on a Sat. night – he’ll never believe you’re out dating. talk soon…,

  317.  #317Melb(a) Lynne on August 1, 2010 at 1:46 am

    Yeah you’re right Jacqueline, re the live or die bit.. probs a bit dramatic (that’s not needed!!) and yeah I never contact him on w/e… I’m too busy then to be even ‘thinking about him’ (lol!) let alone spending any time to send him email.. haha
    And yeah you right re only send it if i’m ok about not getting any (or reasonable) response.. gotta accept that…
    Was thinking of maybe sending some time this week, or next weekish… or I may not send..
    I think I am pretty angry & just want to get it all out… & then just put it all down to ‘experience’ ugg!! I am noticing that I’m just getting more & more frustrated re him not contacting me… & i realise i gotta let that go … & keep getting on with my ‘interesting & awesome life’ lol!!
    Greg txtd me last night (Sat, after our date, i was out with another g/f & told him that!!) & then again this morning… am happy with the ‘attention’ & at this stage ‘it’s not too much’.. just ‘nice’ for me 🙂
    Glad all going well with your b/f

  318.  #318Melb(a) Lynne on August 1, 2010 at 2:21 am

    Was weird that it all started with coffees, for about 5 months!!! last year ie we met about 15 times… before any type of stuff happened… he certainly wasn’t ‘looking/pushing for it’ at all … (ie I finally, chased him… into the physical stuff…. not being as aware as I am now of that Any guy can do that & just walk away from it at Any time… I’ve been a bit gobsmacked… BUT he did always say he only ever ‘wanted friendship’ ‘strictly friendship’ on dating site… so that’s what he orchestrated…)… & that’s what I got… (I inadvertantly became the ‘with benefits’ friend!!! which is def ‘not me’)…. wtf…!!???
    I just changed the you ‘not care if I live’ bit!! to:
    “& now that i’ve chosen ‘not to share so much of me with you’ (to keep myself safe)… I feel ignored cos you contact me so infrequently.. I just feel strange, disconnected & weird.. a bit wtf…!!??

  319.  #319Mystyk on August 1, 2010 at 4:46 am

    For what it is worth…

    I have a male friend who is very close to me. I sent my friend the letter that I was contemplating sending to my LI.

    I felt like my feelings and thoughts needed to be heard by someone – a male someone. I asked him to read it and let me know how it came off.

    While he was reading it I continued to tweak it and then it felt like I was just done with the need to do anything else, that it all felt really healed. The desire to lean forward was gone. I told my friend that I felt his energy helped me clear whatever needed to be said, and thanked him for his help.

    He did get back to me and said: Hi, Mystyk.

    I was going to go over this point by point, but I don’t think that’s necessary.

    I would very much appreciate getting a letter like this: filled with clearly stated points, encouragement, and hope. You make your feelings known without whining or undue complaining.

    I think your LI is a lucky man indeed. And if he’s half the guy I think he is, he knows just how lucky he is!

    Breathe. Sing. Go to your secret garden and mess with the Zen sand. You are doing fine.
    I never sent the letter. Now sometimes I just do letters and give my boy energy – the part that needs to DO something just that – do the letter and then never send it.


  320.  #320Jacqueline on August 1, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    Lynne – and hi, Mystyk – great name!…..

    I understand the being angry part, that’s what I was getting from it all, underneath, last nite. For me, it’s too convoluted, cuz underneath it’s really angry. Why don’t you write an actual “angry” one and post it here…we can help you work through it.

    An actual one, for me, I think it’d be something like:

    Hi, sorry we’ve been out of touch. I feel so frustrated things got really off track with a true friendship when we turned physical. I feel really happy right now in my life as I am dating several men until I can choose the one that is ready for a true commitment. But it feels like unfinished business and makes me angry that I haven’t heard from you, or hung out like we used to after I said I wanted to stop being physical. I don’t want to feel angry and I do want to think of you as a friend. What do you think or feel about this? Please let me know!

    I don’t have words for you, but is this on track as to what you are FEELING?? I think it’s a great idea to write a really blast him one and post here, not send, like Mystyk mentions – but writing and not sending has never made me feel…boy energy….

    so, let’s work on the anger and also find a way to speak to him that hopefully he will listen to and respond to – what do you think?

    Btw, I’m in Houston, TX – so I’m not even sure what day it is in Australia? so that’s why there’s a weird time difference/lag in our posts, but I am very happy for you that you are so getting out and about!

    And boy! is it hot here….something like 104 heat index!!! talk soon….
    Take care,

  321.  #321Melb(a) Lynne on August 1, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Hi Mystyk, thank you, & I know the ‘getting it all out’ is important.. (whether i send or not.. at this point i Want to, but i’ll see how i feel..).. & fantastic response for you from your male friend…
    I have a Zen Garden!! (amazing you should mention that).. got it from my neice in April when she came back from the Canadian ski slopes working hol.. & I do aim for as much Zen as pos these days, since my ‘normal pattern/s’ probs were/are pretty busy (thoughts & life I keep it moving along pretty fast, unconsciously or consciously, [even with cfs that obviously impedes me!!])… i’ve had to learn tho….

    I had another ‘withdrawal’ from our situation back in March this year, (when I realised he not going to give up his ‘old friend where the relship sometimes includes sex’ wtf…!! ie his Real F w Benefits…)… he Wanted to Keep Seeing Me so suggested ‘seeing’ each other but no sex, whatever it was I wanted he would do..(he wants/wanted sex w me.. that not an issue)… & I ended up doing a ‘txt explanation’…(he only usually txts me, so I wasn’t going to have a big ‘talk’… we’d already talked lots & lots over a year.. [was no point ‘persuading’ or ‘moaning’..])
    I wasn’t happy with that… or his response to that… (ie I felt he didn’t really “get” what I was on about, altho maybe he did ie he not want relship, me want relship, it was probs that simple back then)….
    so maybe there is No Point in sending… But… I just feel he ‘is different’ now… as he’s mentioned, on more than one occasion recently, about becoming g/f b/f which is a HUGE step from his continual “I don’t want a relationship [cos they all Don’t Work & you have to Compromise Your True Self {in order to try & Make it Work}]” mantra that I’d been hearing for a year… gotta rush to work is Mon morn here..
    Thanks heaps, Lynne

  322.  #322Melb(a) Lynne on August 1, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Hi Jacqueline, see re above post & Thanks!!
    Yes, what you wrote it pretty much EXACTLY (caps again lol!!!, but you are right on the money.. channelling my thoughts/ I mean feelings!! lol!!)..
    Yep… the frustration, & Yep the friendship thing (gone wrong somehow), & Yep the Happy now, & Yep the Dating, (& commitment) & Yep the Unfinished Business!!! (I feel Anger Trigger…. !!!!), & Yep the confusion??/whatever it is/change since we stopped the physical… Yes that Bothers me!!!
    AND Yep I Don’t Want to FEEL ANGRY, & Yes I Do Like Him (!!!!)…. & Yes Wtf…. is he thinking???!!!!!
    & Yep … Please let me know … (he usually does)…
    & Yes… short & sweet probs better… you right there..
    Thanks so much, I’m running off to work.. !!!
    Big weekend & all good with Greg & my g/f’s… so smiles there… & keeping my ‘me’ thoughts happy & positive.. Lynne

  323.  #323Jacqueline on August 1, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    Lynne, have a great evening – I’m still confused, it’s Sun. nite for me….smile…and I think that has the best chance of getting a reply, sounds like he is basically a decent guy. Expect great(er) things to happen!! Rori says it’s like a ferris wheel coming towards us – just love from everywhere. I KNOW you’ll be great with it. I feel a little worried about “I’m not good with money” on Greg, so try and keep the circle dating going, huh? What do you feel about that, or where you want to head with it all? I think you sound amazing for someone with CF, btw!

    Take care, girlfriend….


  324.  #324Melb(a) Lynne on August 2, 2010 at 2:27 am

    Jacqueline, thanks, I think Ian is a ‘good guy’ too (but maybe not ‘available’ for some time?… who knows..). It’s 7.30 pm here Mon night.. btw.. when I was in New Hampshire (in 1982) counsellor on Summer Camp there, (Camp Winemac) my sis had her 2nd son, on 1 July, 1982… they phoned me up & I found out on 30 June, 1982…wtf.. my little lol!! story I like to tell!!! ie I found out he’d been born the day before he was!!!
    Cos Ian has been ‘there’ for me all along… but Only when I txt him, Now, (since the physical decreased, that is, prior to that from last Aug – March 2010 every w/e I would see him & he’d make sure it happened, his b/day, Xmas night, N Y Eve… even though he has one teen kid F/T the other 1/2 time as well, F/T work plus 2nd job on w/e)… Now since I ‘broke off’ in March & then reconnected w him late April, I decided to still ‘see him’, but less (to try to become ‘less involved’… by seeing him less… & the no sex is Actually.. bit of kissing etc ie Not Nothing really.. ie I like it & Want it.. but gotta have Boundary/s) & spend More Time actively CD… since April has mainly been every 2nd w/e that we’d catch up (but generally w me txting him… he’d be available/ respond Every Time straight away tho & prob would Right Now if I txtd)…
    I think his ‘thing’ is 1. don’t contact thus won’t get rejected; plus 2. cos he doesn’t ‘want’ relship doesn’t want to be ‘accused’ of ‘initiating one’ ie a relship… so he does hardly any [except he did when sex was actually on the table!!, but that was with the ‘condition’ that it ‘not exclusive’..!! ie no use to me, as I realised, couldn’t handle that….] & 3. he not want ‘responsibility’ or ‘commitment’ of relship – his older son 16 now, a ‘bit of a challenge’ lot of issues there & he has him F/T…
    Having said all that, since my ‘leaning back’, ‘stopping’ basically, He Has Contacted Me for the w/e catch up 3 weeks ago & then again, Fri week ago He Contacted Me… I just feel lame mentioning that he’s contacted me twice… but seriously he said recently he was surprised how it’s all transpired & he’s just ‘wanting to see what happens’.. I FELT like saying (but I didn’t) “Well Maybe Nothing Will Happen, if I Decide I Don’t Like Your Rules (ie of me having to initiate; but the flipside is He Was Always There if I asked…[!!]). Clearly he’s Keen & Likes Me… but Appears as if he Doesn’t (care)….
    So… i’m concerned re I May get to Like Greg… & then find myself in same position as w Ian…. ie some Problem w him!!!????…. even ‘concerned/yes Worried!!’ that how can I Be Real w Greg.. when I Actually Like Ian alot still???? My emotions are being ‘stuffed around’… i know I have to ‘deal w it’… but they are what they are… I feel what I feel…
    I Don’t Want to let Ian go from my life… but it seems impossible to attempt to ‘connect’ w others… if I still have feelings for him… I just don’t Do the Spreading Myself/my Feelings around lots of guys at the same time… at all….? I feel confused & I feel like I wanna talk to Ian… but I don’t want it to be the same.. ie me: ‘I want relship’ he: ‘i don’t want relship’ …. aagghhhh….
    better go… hope your week starting out well… am gunna think about sending the email (or maybe, wait till after this Fri to see if Ian contacts me….)…
    people trying to upset me at work too!!! 🙁 I’m just having a little ‘sooky la la’… re life!!! Lynne & thanks again….

  325.  #325Melb(a) Lynne on August 2, 2010 at 2:33 am

    PS: I’m not ‘waiting’ for Ian to contact!!.. i mean, i’m getting on w rsvp (dating site)… thinking of what to plan w Greg for weekend… & my daughter’s 22nd birthday… plus getting through work week (!!) energy wise…. So I am Trying to Be a Cool Gorgeous Siren… who Doesn’t Need Any Guy to Feel Good 🙂

  326.  #326Melb(a) Lynne on August 2, 2010 at 3:01 am

    Errr Jacqueline, sorry bout the cus language (as Daria would say! lol!) but wtf….!!! Guess whom just txtd me??????????????????????? (hmmmm… ian)…..
    He has been ‘sent to try me’… (as my parents would say)…………. I just get so …. flipped out…. now i ‘don’t know if i’m arthur or martha’ (is that a USA saying or just on Oz one??)… suffice to say my stomach is just…. OMG…. (you’re noticing I still have a few feelings for the [most annoying] guy in Melbourne…)
    Oh & btw…. looks like Rori right… some ‘laying back’ whoops I Mean ‘leaning back’ (freudian slip there I think! lol!!!)… maybe this ‘back leaning’ works!!!!!!! 🙂

  327.  #327Jacqueline on August 2, 2010 at 10:32 am

    OMGod!!! rofl (rolling on the floor laughing!) SOOOOOO glad you didn’t send the email!! Course you still need to say how you feel. The connection is the thing for me – I mean I barely feel it with the guy I live with, and I literally can go out with 100 men and feel it not at all. So, I understand the Ian thing. And I know Rori would say to let it go, which you are doing with your actions, so you can have the best of both????? Or at least a two circle date….well and date and txt circle…okay, that’s starting to sound lame. The annoying man has a lot on his shoulders, btw. Maybe he just says he doesn’t want a relationship because he experiences them as an awful lot of work. Still, I wouldn’t want to be FWB if he EVER indicated he was the same and/or more liking it with anyone other than me. I think somewhere on here someone said that Rori said they “always” come back unless they committ to someone else? That’s my experience, too. So, don’t get too excited – it could be a combination of leaning and Habitual Male Behavior. grin….

    PS….I enjoy our talking, but if feels funny to just talk and not be quoting the Rori stuff. If you search facebook for “Jlina” there are only like 5 found – and I’m the only blonde one and I have an “F” in my name, why don’t you message me there if you want to? I’m ready to jump off this board. So, hope to hear from you and if I don’t….all the best of all the best to you my Oz friend!


  328.  #328Melb(a) Lynne on August 4, 2010 at 2:49 am

    Hi Jacqueline, i have a bit of trouble on Facebook; I don’t think I could find you –
    I’d like to hear from you, i’ve enjoyed our chats & your perspective….
    Yes , I was very glad I’d not contacted Ian…. the ‘leaning back’ def worked…. but not sure what now.. maybe a meet & chat (feeling messages)… maybe i just gotta leave it…. cos really, just does my head in… so not really good for me….. I believe he cares… he’s just… got a lot of ‘stuff’…
    So gotta look after me… & maybe some focus on some ‘practice’ w Greg…. (& others….)…. in the mean time…….. Lynne

  329.  #329Jacqueline on August 4, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Hi, Lynne!! I love how you are so upbeat! and I missed hearing about your days. Check out Rori’s post about “forgetting” today – it’s sooooo true. Why don’t you “leave” it for a set amount of time in your head – say 2 weeks? and then check your gut feeling when the time’s expired – but the trick is you’ve got to forget all about it!!!! for those two weeks. I’ll check in here from time to time, I’d love to hear more from you. I made some 10+ year friends on a GAME site I logged onto once – ha! like 5 couples came out of it and a bunch of us still talk, one guy became one of my best friends and they taught me all I know about computers. I just wanted to watch the game like a video no actually have to play it. heeeeheeee….

    All you wonderful Women have a great week,


  330.  #330Melb(a) Lynne on August 5, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Hi Jacqueline, & any/all who have any ideas/thoughts on “feeling messages” below ???
    I’ve been exhausted w work (bully boss to manage! among other things).. & daughter b/f probs..(!)… Just (the usual) gettin’ thru4 me.. I’ve organised Greg for Sat am coffee, & lookin forward to that… (leaving rest of Sat for me or daughter/s birthday)… & Sunday for me (& Resting! & look after me what I want)…
    Ian was having a bit of a ‘sooky la la’ (re no job, being old, etc) haha so I Have organised to see him 2nite…(It is 9.20 am Fri here)… trying to find some Way b/w ‘being totally authentic’ (& revealing all??!!).. which I’m Wanting to do (Rori way)… & pretending I ‘don’t care’ that I don’t see him much..(which I Orchestrated so that I Could remove myself emotionally from him a bit.. which has sort of worked, pretty well.. but I Still Like Him, altho not so Desperate About it & am Meeting/More Open to other guys)…
    eg saying “I felt hurt that you wantd to sleep with another, whilst you were with me..” “I don’t want/CANT Be ‘friends w benefits (its Not Me)”..”I want our time together to Mean Something..” “I think I understand why you not want relship… & I accept that…”.. “I’ve been dating recently, a couple guys, & one I quite like, alot…..”
    THEN I get “stuck” ie What Then???, just ask “What do you think?” or what…?? I am already ready to not be seeing him for a while after that… ie I’d still be doing my ‘not contacting’ him…
    I Don’t Want to ask him ‘to have relship’… I Want Him to just Want to Be w me…… (he’s already said it’s cos he doesn’t Want Relship, not cos Not Want Me haha (I know that’s what they all say, but I know he means it…….. it is my Intuition… but i feel it…)…

  331.  #331Melb(a) Lynne on August 5, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    PS: I’ll be checking out the post on ‘forgetting’… gotta go now… Lynne

  332.  #332Jacqueline on August 5, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    Hey, Lynne! I love the I want our time together to mean something; not sure how to phrase it. Will give it some more thought….anyone else got ideas?

    Best yall!


  333.  #333Jacqueline on August 5, 2010 at 10:38 pm

    Is this what you’re feeling?

    So, I love the I want our time together to mean something. And how about, and I don’t want it to mean more to me that it does to you. And if I sleep with you it will, because you have already stated that you 1. don’t want a “relationship” and 2. will feel free to sleep with others. That made me feel very hurt and I wanted to pull away from you. But I also still like you and want a friendship, so what I have to offer for now is just that – friendship. I am going to date until I find someone who does make me feel like I can safely trust him with my body, mind and heart! Still, I enjoy you, and being with you, and I would enjoy it a lot more if I felt more of a desire to invest in the friendship on your part as well. Whether it’s physical or not.

    Let us know how it goes – and wow! great job on planning And including nurturing yourself!!!

    Take care,