The Sugar Problem and How It Wrecks Our Relationships With Men

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greenseaMy brilliant and incredibly emotionally stable daughter Gemma has been struggling, undiagnosed, with hypoglycemia for years and years. We thought it was migraines…and that was bad enough – but it was never that bad, and we never had sweets and cookies around our house, so she always ate fairly well.

But things change. Sometimes, when things go out-of-balance in our bodies – hormones, the good bacteria/bad bacteria balance – things get worse. This summer it all got worse for Gemma, and now, with a real diagnosis, a couple of books and the brilliance and fortitude that is Gemma (and the help of my Chinese Medical doctor) she’s reversing the downward spiral, taking control of her life and her body, and regaining her body’s balance – and the balance of her blood sugar. She’s getting well, and becoming an expert at hypoglycemia and weathering the roller-coaster of recovery from the hypoglycemia roller coaster at the same time

So, when I talk with a client or read a letter, the first thing I think of is that delicate balance of our physical selves and how easy it is to create all kinds outcomes based on what our bodies are doing inside. How our minds and emotions are so keyed into the rhythms of our bodies. And the other way around, too…

We can so heal ourselves in so many ways. Studies are done now about how happiness effects our health. How laughing cures. How we are so profoundly effected by the level of happiness and health of our closest friends (not family – but friends, isn’t that interesting?). And how illness, no matter how subtle and barely noticeable, can affect our moods and energy.

So – let’s get back to our “no sugar” challenge – prompted by this short P.S. to a letter I just received…

“”…PS I need to work on eating healthy if you have any suggestions. Can’t stay away from the sweets no matter what I try. I know a lot of other women have this problem especially when our relationships are crashing. 5’3″ – 145 lbs.”

Okay – is this a problem for many of you?

Because sugar is POISON. Forget the pounds, forget how you “look.”

Let’s even forget about the general term “health” – because that means something different to each of us.

Let’s frame this sugar thing into something that’s meaningful for each of us – specifically and uniquely.

For me – sugar means pain. Literally. My bladder starts to burn, my head gets foggy, I slump. Even an apple not eaten around protein can do this to me – because my system is already so sensitive. So – sugar is about beating up my sensitive self.

When I look at it that way – it’s no wonder I’ve been able to stay away from sugar (even fruit) for years now. Pain is a stronger pressure on me than the pleasure of tasting sugar. (I’ve also discovered that SMELLING cake, cookies, even fruit does the trick sometimes, when my system is a bit out of whack (weather, hormones, seasons can do that to any of us…) and I’m craving it (not very often, thankfully).

In my wonderful interview with Rose Cole a few months back, we talked about the link between sugar and hormones and depression…and that was a wake up call for many of you – and the way Rose framed that was helpful. So if your pain is depression, and not physical aches and pains (though depression can be a physical achey thing, too…) – that might be enough of a motivation for you.

But here’s the thing – most of us are so USED to pain, so comfortable with emotional and physical pain and discomfort – that we feel WEIRD without it! We feel odd being in a pleasurable place. Some of us have so seldom even EXPERIENCED pleasure, pleasure itself isn’t much of a motivator for change.

Sometimes it’s avoiding the pain that’s the motivator.

Thing is – WE ALL WORK DIFFERENTLY! We all work off of both avoidance and pleasure. We all respond to both “carrots and sticks” – the carrot being the dangling pleasure reward, and the stick being the feared pain and humiliation.

But – most of us respond PRIMARILY to EITHER a carrot or a stick.

If pain was a constant in our lives, we are confused all the time, because pain FEELS like BOTH a carrot and a stick. In other words, emotional pain feels like the way a reward is supposed to feel. Pain feels like love. Because that’s the association we grew up with.

If you had a lovely childhood, you might respond mostly to carrots…following the good feelings more naturally, and not worrying too much about the bad. And so…when you get snockered by heartbreak or physical pain…it’s so foreign to you it can do you in. You feel like you can’t cope.

So – whatever our backgrounds – we developed SKILLS!!! Some of the “coping” skills we learned, though – are killing our love lives.

For instance – if people were always trampling on you emotionally, you learned to hide your feelings. Even from yourself.

Your emotional status might have led you to comfort food – to sugar, and then your physical system got screwed up, too.

So – sugar might be not only your poison, but your drug.

It’s hard to imagine something as seemingly innocent as a cookie or a slice of cake or dish of ice cream as the wrecking ball of your love life – but sometimes it IS!

So – let’s get back to the no-processed-sugar for a week challenge – and let me know how you feel. If you’re experiencing emotional and energetic ups and downs, you think it might be linked to food or to your body, and you’d like to talk with Gemma about all the research she’s doing and how she’s handling her recovery, and how you could do it, too, right along with her…you can email her at GemHarp@hotmail.com… (You can see her photo and all she’s doing at http://GemmaLevine.tumblr.com.) Perhaps, if this sugar thing seems to be something you’d like to work with,  I’ll put in a category here – we can do support and accountability…

I’ve been very happy without sugar for a very long time now (only eat a bit of fruit, and always followed by protein – I know that’s debatable by many dietary systems, but when you’re dealing with blood sugar – that’s crucial in my book) – and so perhaps we could trade some recipes (Rose Cole always has great sugar and gluten free recipes around on her site…) and support each other to break old patterns and eat for our health.

Love, Rori

127 Comments

  1.  #1Daria on December 21, 2009 at 12:56 am

    I ate no sugar for a couple weeks.

    what i resonated with in this post is how, the addicted to feeling pain thing..

    i think when i feel too well, i start to “oversmoke” pot and get my body feeling not 100% great again to the way im used to! its a subconscious thing im noticing, because i weill just be doing FANTASTIC and even a lil smoking won’t be bad, but then i just go all out and overdo it, and it seems like its so subtle how i get to that…

    i dont want to sabotage my health! thank you

    ps – sitting in a car in the same position too long also hurts me!

    i dont want to do that either

    or binge drinking

    i love myself!

    ditto for sugar and chocolate!

    i love myself



  2.  #2Tina on December 21, 2009 at 12:58 am

    My son is diabetic so I know all about the sugar problem. I have started eating like him when he was diagnosed with it. I have sugar in the house mostly for cooking we dont eat it straight out of the bag for cereal or anything, Im so used to eating like this. We do get sweet cravings though and indulge ourselves on occasion. He goes nuts on Halloween and Christmas. I do eat crappy food from time to time, feels good 🙂 but I can feel the difference though.



  3.  #3Tina on December 21, 2009 at 1:26 am

    His diet is mostly around carb counting and making sure he eats protein with his meals. I’ll eat a bag of cashew nuts with some kind of juice, if Im in a hurry and dont get to eat something. My hormones are not were I would like them to be but slowly I’m feeling much better, I know I can do better job at what I eat. I used to fall asleep after a meal, that was a sign that my insulin was rushing out to my blood stream to quickly not good for my body either. So I make sure I eat protein with my meals well most times. even a few hand fulls of cashew nuts do the trick.



  4.  #4Kaitlyn on December 21, 2009 at 1:46 am

    What has worked for me is a primarily raw foods diet.

    http://www.giveittomeraw.com

    I’ve been eaten like this for a few years and it has even stabilized my eating disorder.



  5.  #5Kaitlyn on December 21, 2009 at 2:06 am

    Instead of juice, eat real, actual fruit. Fruit juice you buy in stores has all been pasteurized; thus, the nutrients and enzymes are now null. Real vitamin C inside? Sure, once upon a time before it was pasteurized.

    Even if you make a fruit juice yourself at home, it’s too much sugar unless you’re a hardcore endurance athlete. You’re better off making a veggie juice with a touch of fruit just for flavor.

    But just eat the fruit.

    This is the best way to eliminate sugar spike/crash issues.

    Peace!



  6.  #6Linda on December 21, 2009 at 5:50 am

    I know that sugar is bad for you. The average american consumes 140 pounds of sugar a year. (reported on national news the other day) !….. It is hidden in foods that you would not realized too.

    Finding what works for us is vital. There is soooo much conflicting information out there. The recent, mamogram deal is just an example.

    I found that eliminating nutra sweet and caffiene out of my diet helped me feel loads better. I see people who are so caffeine dependant that they dont feel good if they are not getting it. I decided a long time ago that I did not want to be dependant on any substance to function….

    Eating more protien and watching sugar intake, also no caffeine and nutrasweet is a good combo for me.

    Linda



  7.  #7Lisa on December 21, 2009 at 9:06 am

    I am glad to see this post. I came here two weeks ago because of an emotional revelation in my 7 year relationship with an abusive narcissist. The support has been invaluable.

    But this post addresses something that’s been sitting in the background for quite sometime. 2 years ago I had a test for Celiac disease (gluten intolerance), the results being conflicting. One of the tests said “yes”, the other, “no”. The doctor decided that I didn’t have to worry about following the diet, and that since the endoscopy showed no cellular damage, there was no reason to try the diet, that is was “hard to follow”. Since I am one of the “asymptomatic” people, why worry, he said.

    Well, I have another health problem which may well be impacted by gluten intolerance, though there is no hard and fast data for it at this point. Demyelination, if any of you know about that.

    So, why not try it? There’s nothing to lose, other than the pleasure of a pastry. Why not devote to it for 3 months? I am good at devoting, and good at self-denial 🙂 Why not use those things in the service of myself.

    O.k. — I am making a commitment here, to begin eliminating gluten (wheat, rye and barley) starting after Christmas. I wonder what will happen? Surely nothing bad. Since I have a new community of friends, i will report in with my findings!

    Thanks for providing the provocative ideas and the forum, Rori 🙂



  8.  #8Nikita on December 21, 2009 at 9:18 am

    Sugar…the silent killer. Thanks Linda for reminding me of my uber caffeine dependence…….Maybe I can check that if I go the convent;)

    The book Sugar Blues is remarkable….William Duffy I think wrote it. Hard to find but worth exploring.



  9.  #9Symantha on December 21, 2009 at 9:18 am

    Rori,

    when I heard your interview with Rose Cole I was going trough a lethargic phase, I wasn’t sure if was depression by itself or has to do with my body as well. After all I heard in that eyes opening interview with Rose & Rori I realized it has to do with both. I’ve diagnosed with hyperinsulinemia since my early twenties so the battle as always been with me causing unbalance on my weight, hormones and mood.
    Now I’ve subscribed to Rose’s programs, she is gorgeous with her holistic approach to life and food, the change Im experiencing is unbelievable.

    thanks Rori



  10.  #10dorothea on December 21, 2009 at 9:28 am

    I have struggled with diet issues for the last few years. It has felt especially frustrating because I am not overweight but now I know my insulin levels cause serious problems for me. I vomited bile every morning for nearly two years and got my period once every few months if ever. I knew I had hormonal issues like PCOS but was told instead that I have a lactose intolerance and a gluten intolerance which is why I feel sick every day.

    My doctors did not make the connection between hormones and diet or hormones and morning sickness. They treated my diet and ovaries separately. I took Rx birth control pills that made me feel unstable both physically and emotionally.

    Mainstream medicine is so out of touch with diet AND reproductive health. It was until I saw an acupuncturist specializing in fertility that someone immediately made the connection between my morning sickness, my irregular periods, and the crap I love to eat.

    But now my periods come like clockwork and I have stopped vomiting daily. This is not thanks to my diet change, although at the start of my acupuncture treatments I tried to cut back on the crap I love to eat. ACUPUNCTURE IS POWERFUL STUFF. It brought my ovaries back to life:)

    So all that diet stuff has been put on the backburner because I get my period now and don’t feel sick. But I still have symptoms of hormonal issues like acne and unwanted facial hair. I know if I could buckle down and really change my dietary habits this could improve greatly. But something inside of me has always resisted. I can’t bring myself to eat a restrictive diet when I don’t have weight issues. Some priorities I have, haha:P



  11.  #11Nikita on December 21, 2009 at 9:53 am

    ugh -facial hair…..I feel angry getting my lip-waxed ..grrrr
    make it stop growing!!



  12.  #12dorothea on December 21, 2009 at 9:58 am

    Grrrrrr is right. Mine is on my chin. I just pull it out with tweezers as it pops up. I was using a hair inhibitor cream that seemed to do me some good but like a lot of things in my life, I just can’t seem to keep up with using it. Some priorities I have, hah!

    LOL I feel amused saying these things to another human being and seeing how ridiculous I must sound for not being able to keep up with stuff that could make a big difference. I feel stuck. And then I feel guilty.



  13.  #13Lisa on December 21, 2009 at 9:59 am

    Birth control pills can wreak havoc with some women — they did with me. Interminable periods, hot flashes — menopausal things in my 20’s. The docs kept upping the dosage, and said they’d do a hysterectomy if the bleeding didn’t stop.

    Thank god my mother said, “get off them. They’re just a convenience for men.” Everything began looking up after that. I will never go on them again. (I am in a poor risk categrory, anyway. Leg cramps, blood clotting issues in my family …)



  14.  #14dorothea on December 21, 2009 at 10:37 am

    Now there is a class action suit against the pills my docs put me on. I feel so glad I never experienced the horrible life threatening side effects in the two years I took Yaz. Blargh.



  15.  #15Daria on December 21, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    I got my first and only abnormal pap after being on the patch (hormone birth control patch). I read up on hormonal birth control and found out it most likeley was directly related.

    The clinic doctor said no. They are not related. She wanted to havea biopsy, that is take a piece of my cervix to look at.

    something in me said no. I did not want to have the risk of cutting my cervix at that time. I said no. for the first time ever, i listened to my intuition rather than standard procedure. She insisted and i said no. I had to sign a form that I might die of cancer because i refused the biopsy.

    I quit using the patch. My next pap smear was of course normal.

    and i began my exploration of natural medicine.



  16.  #16Tina on December 21, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Ive read articles about health and women’s hormones, I”m not an expert but it sure explains a lot of what I’ve been feeling lately. I’m not on as much caffeine as I used to be, I mix mine with decaf 🙂 I do what I can, when I can, evening primrose oil, D3, cardio on my treadmill, lite weights, I grew up on brown sugar and oatmeal every morning:) stay away from toxic men, work on my “issues” Lately Ive been paying a lot of attention to what I tell myself, when I am not paying attention to my thoughts.

    I read on of Rori’s emails this morning about self esteem and taking hold of a mans words and twisting and turning them to mean what we want them to mean. I didnt know that this is linked to low self esteem.



  17.  #17Tina on December 21, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Sugar for my Christmas tree! 🙂



  18.  #18Jennifer on December 21, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    There’s a class action suit against YAZ!?!?!??!!?
    I’ve been on it for like 6 months and it saved my life! And the lives of those around me!
    I hope it was against an older version!
    EEEEKKKKKKK!!!!
    I feel panicky
    I feel wired.
    I love my birth control.
    I hope I dont’ have to stop taking it.

    I am having a bad day.
    No work today or tomorrow. The school break has started here and I am back to doing visiting nursing.
    The visit numbers are down and all the rest of the girls are contract and have to be filled in first. I don’t know if there will be any work this week.
    B is on MSN not talking to me.
    I feel so frustrated.
    HE doesn’t worry about money. They pay him the 1st and the 15th.
    And how did he get there? Six years of my encouragement and love and support.
    Fuck you guy.
    I feel angry
    I feel frustrated.
    I feel screwed over
    I feel left out
    I feel tight in my belly. I’ve been having indigestion all day. I have some vertigo too.
    I want to have a bath and lie down but I’m watching my room mate’s kids tonight.
    I want to scream
    FucK YOU B!!!!!
    ARE YOU HAVING FUN WITH YOUR MOMMY?
    ASSHOLE!!!!

    wow that feels a little better.



  19.  #19Aldonza on December 21, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Yeah, back in the day, we called this “low carb”. And life was good.

    A note, don’t replace all the sugar in your diet with artificial sweeteners. The chemicals aren’t any better for you and in some cases *increase* your sugar cravings. Better to slowly phase out the sweetness and retrain your tastebuds to less sweet.



  20.  #20Nikita on December 21, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Aspartame IS WORSE THAN SUGAR!

    google it….nutrasweet fought dirty to create money for themselves at the expense of the general public-in my opinion, according to facts ……



  21.  #21tinque on December 21, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Agave nectar is a wonderful alternative, natural with a low glycemic index, i.e. no highs and lows which even fruit sugar and honey can give.
    Sugar in and of itself is not a “bad” food unless you have a sensitivity to it. Everything in moderation. Even lettuce can be bad if you eat say twenty heads in one sitting.
    Remember the woman who died by drinking too much water? She drowned internally.
    xxoo



  22.  #22danae on December 21, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    ick :::shudder::: sugar… read Dr Perricone’s research into how it ages you and that should reinforce all that Rori is saying here.

    I haven’t eaten sugar or wheat (so no bread, cake, cookies, etc) for over seven years – all of that really makes my body feel bad, as do dairy foods (lactose is a form of sugar). I’m forty and look thirty, and I’m ridiculously healthy. I’m training for a half marathon in April (just took up running six weeks ago).

    coincidentally I never could take oral contraceptives either, but I’ve seen how if you combine the pill with a diet high in sugar and dairy and you have a recipe for candida (which stops your body from absorbing the nutrients it needs) and nightmare mood swings.

    raw foods do make me feel good! eating healthy means loving my body!

    thanks for this reminder, Rori, as we head into the holiday season and the temptation of chocolate!

    xxx



  23.  #23alias girl on December 21, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    daria i found that very interesting what you shared.

    nikita – electrolysis? I did electrolysis on my upper lip years ago. just find a good person so she doesn’t scar and stay out of the sun immediately after. worked for me. i can’t wait til the day i laser my bikini line!

    i don’t take birth control pills. it can be a hassle but the pills never worked right with my body. i like the discussion on health. i am a health cheerleader! i love feeling and being healthy!



  24.  #24Nikita on December 21, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    AG,

    I have skin like yours..a little lighter but still “exotic”
    and I am concerned with scarring….I saw a make-up artist and she had the darkening thing….scary 🙁



  25.  #25Daria on December 21, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    I did laser hair removal…. and although it didnt totally remove my hair it much lessend it. i had a good deal for 12 sessions instead of the usual 4. but my laser company went bankrupt after only 6.



  26.  #26Daria on December 21, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    I just ate some cane sugar from tapioca with nuts. and some chocolate. but i am ok with sugar and i mostly have less rather than more.

    usually no unnatural one for me.

    i also just bought agave syrup and mollasses to try out.



  27.  #27Jennifer on December 21, 2009 at 7:13 pm

    ugggggggghhhhhhhhhh
    I feel so inside outty
    Nasty and tired and sore
    I think it’s my gall bladder. I have pain in that area. I will Reike myself tonight and do eft
    I feel intrigued and scared about the convo about the dif between leaning back and holding back
    I don’t know what I do
    Wait .
    Yes I do
    Right now I am holding back on B. Mentally going over all the ways I want to zing him.
    To pay back for the pain
    I don’t want to be that person.
    I am holding back and getting cranky and anxious and angry that I am not getting the lean forward I feel I am due.
    I dont want to be that person either.
    I want to flow a be free and be soft and beautiful and yummy
    how to switch from holding back to leaning back?
    Anybody?



  28.  #28janjune on December 21, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    just skimmed the comments but i don’t think anybody said another really good natural sweetner is Stevia.
    you can get it in powder or liquid.



  29.  #29janjune on December 21, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    lisa,
    are you going to go totally gluten-free after Christmas?
    i would love to try it well actually have tried it a couple of times but would find myself unknowingly munching on something with gluten in it (by way of packaged food). and then just go back to regular food.
    i’m not terribly crazy about rice and it seems like most of the substitutes are rice based—liek if you want to have bread or bread type products.

    well anyway, will be looking forward to knowing how you are doing with it once you get started.



  30.  #30janjune on December 21, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    danae,
    you said you have not eaten bread, sugar or dairy for seven years.
    would you mind sharing with us what you eat?
    also do you juice (use a juicer)?

    i get so hungry when i have cut out bread or sugar or dairy. have only tried cutting them out one at a time, too, not all at the same time,
    …so i imagine like i’d feel famished if all three groups of food were gone at the same time.
    thanks, janjune



  31.  #31Angeline on December 21, 2009 at 9:34 pm

    The longest I’ve gone on an absolute 100% sugar-free (including fruit) diet was 3 months. My skin was amazing during that time, and I felt pretty good. I was following The Body Ecology Diet.

    My skin’s been acting up, so my intuition’s been reminding me about how good I felt without sugar. It feels good that there’s support/awareness around that issue here, but I also feel so pressured and squeezed when I imagine going back to all that restriction.

    I do feel really proud because I haven’t smoked weed in about a month though! I love that I’m getting in touch with my emotions, and weed was just getting the way of that (for me). So maybe if I keep following my emotions I’ll find a way to eat better that also feels good.



  32.  #32danae on December 21, 2009 at 11:03 pm

    janjune, 🙂 I’d love to share with you…

    I eat eggs with salad (greens, herbs and onions) for breakfast, or a serve of fruit

    (I don’t drink coffee or tea, just herbal teas and water)
    I have a palm sized piece of fish with salad (greens, avocados, onion, herbs) for lunch (or any lean meat)

    I snack on nuts and seeds such as whole unroasted, unsalted almonds, cashews and walnuts, pumkin seeds, sunflower seeds and pinenuts

    dinner is usually much smaller, but is a variation on lunch, based on protein (including tofu) and salad or lightly steamed veggies.

    I don’t eat potatoes or rice, but if I were inclined toward grains (I’m not as they don’t feel right in me) I’d go for whole organic oats or quinoa.

    No, I don’t juice, although I used to. I stopped when I learned that the juicing process removes the part of the fruit which lowers the uptake of its glucose into the blood. In other words, eating the whole fruit means it is lower GI.

    I hope that clarifies things somewhat. I do know that a reasonable amount of good quality protein (remember that 10% of plant food is protein) keeps you fuller for longer. Stuff yourself with yummy salads!

    d xx



  33.  #33danae on December 21, 2009 at 11:05 pm

    ps. janjune, sugar, dairy and wheat can all be tied in to what nutritionist call an ‘allergy-addiction’ cycle whereby the body craves what is toxifying it. I recommend a good naturopathic detox program (see a good naturopath!) to clear out the intestines of any parasites and nasties that are keeping you stuck in the cycle of craving. Kinda like how we have to clear out the toxic men isn’t it? 😉



  34.  #34gina on December 21, 2009 at 11:08 pm

    I usually eat lots of vegetables and feel balanced with whole grains, fish and fruit as my primary diet. But I noticed that since Gary and I have started talking about commitment, I have been wanting to binge on all kinds of things. I’ve been eating processed sugar because Christmas candy is around , which I bought for an after-work party I planned to have last Saturday. I also bought a load of Coor’s Light, Rumpleminze and godiva chocolate licquer…the bartenders love that stuff, and I felt like I wanted to have people over to enjoy my cute apartment, and this lifestyle while I still have it. But when Gary expressed that he didn’t like the idea that I was having guys over in my apartment late at night, I chose to respect what he said, and nobody came over. I’m out $100 and my fridge is full of beer that I don’t like at all, and I feel a compulsive desire to eat the leftover chocolate goodies that I had bought. And I feel like I indulged today and that it’s okay, I’ll be back to veggies very soon. The holidays are all about sugary sweetness….right?



  35.  #35danae on December 21, 2009 at 11:11 pm

    oh! one more thing Janjune, if you need a bread substitute there is something called ‘Essene bread’ which is made from compressed sprouted seeds and grains and is VERY healthy for you. An aquired taste (I’ve never aquired it but then again I don’t believe in substitutes) it apparently is very good lightly toasted and topped with avocado, tomato and other salads.

    from experience the main thing with getting off sugar, dairy and wheat is to aim for as little processed food as possible. If it comes out of a packet, its probably on the Naughty list 🙂



  36.  #36gina on December 21, 2009 at 11:32 pm

    this may come out crazo sounding…I welcome your feedback on whether this idea should never be uttered in the virtual or real world:

    I’ve been thinking that the yin yang connection is central to the dating/mating process. There is an obvious yin yang relationship between females and males. “Female” is yin, and “male” is yang. But there also seems to be a spectrum of yin to yang amongst ethnicities. Darker skin is a yang characteristic. Therefore it is possible that a woman with very dark skin can actually be more yang than a man with very light skin. I felt more yang than johnny, and many other men. G is more yang than me. I’m pretty yang, and it has been rare to experience a man that feels more yang than me, even when I’m being yang. that’s really my idea. The tool to outgirl a man is awesome, but nothing beats the presence of a truly masculine man. although, I’m realizing that the male ego is very fragile, and it will take commitment to treating a man with respect that will attract devotion and love. I feel like I’m yang enough to where sugar just isn’t really my hang up. my hang up is obsessive compulsive behaviour…not sure what that’s related to in terms of diet: maybe lack of iron? B-12?



  37.  #37danae on December 21, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    gina, interesting ideas 🙂

    just some thoughts… iron would be yang (in alchemy iron is a Mars/martial and masculine metal), its complementary opposite (yin) is copper (Venus and feminine). OCD feels Mercurial to me, so my intuitive advice would be to eat/drink fennel/fennel tea, among other things that are neutral/alkaline and soothing.

    egos in general can be fragile (I’m studying to become a psychotherapist), but it only takes one person in a partnership with a healthy ego (that is strong and permeable at the same time – what we commonly call ‘open minded’ but also well ‘boundaried’) to help heal the ego of the other. That said, working on oneself is the best way to attract the kind of significant that matches one’s inner state.

    I love Rori’s programs and I’m spending lots of time feeling my feelings for the first time in a long time… I found her just as my training started what is known as ‘focusing’ which is about dialoging with inner energy and really getting in touch with feelings. Synchronicity!

    I do love a really masculine man too – it seems that men who are too in touch with their feminine activate my ‘shadow’ parts and I feel repelled.

    🙂 dx



  38.  #38danae on December 21, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    That said, working on oneself is the best way to attract the kind of significant OTHER that matches one’s inner state.

    *blush* typo 🙂



  39.  #39janjune on December 22, 2009 at 1:52 am

    hi danea!
    thanks for all the wonderful information.
    i’ve been on rori’s previous post tonight and just jumped over here before laying down to go to sleep. glad i did.

    love eggs.
    love greens and fruit.
    love fish.
    like tofu.
    love nuts and seeds.
    love essene bread.

    what you’re saying about “detoxing” from sugars, flours and dairy in order to be able to stay away from them sounds like the key.

    actually i am familiar with what i should eat and what i shouldn’t due to having managed a couple of natural foods stores for a few years but i have never, ever met anyone who actually eats the way you do…i mean consistently, year after year.
    which is why i was so curious about exactly what you eat that keeps you on the path day in and day out so you don’t go off bingeing on chips and cokes or something.

    the people i know either admit to doing it “most of the time” or like me, i can’t even claim that, i can only say i eat right some of the time. yet, in my heart i know that the key to vibrant good health is to eating that way all of the time, and as you pointed out to detoxing first.

    i hope you will keep commenting here, you sound like you have mastered the holistic lifestyle.
    love what you said:
    eating healthy means loving my body!
    oh, yeh!!
    i feel uplifted by your attitude.

    it’s exciting to hear that you came upon rori’s work just as it coincided with what you are studying.

    well, thanks again for the information.
    goodnight!
    janjune



  40.  #40janjune on December 22, 2009 at 2:29 am

    oh, P.S. danae,

    i love juicing!

    i have a champion juicer– it leaves a portion of the pulp in the juice and i don’t strain it out.
    then i take the spinach, tomato, celery pulp and freeze it for soups or spaghetti sauce, etc. or to put in roll-ups along with raw sunflower seeds and EVOO, celtic sea salt and organic lemon juice.
    i mix the pulp from apples, strawberries, pears, etc. with yogurt and nuts and honey or just with honey and use it on toast or in my cereal and have even used it (apples) in apple pies along with regularly prepared apples.
    (i can see alot of adjusting that would have to be done with just with those few menu items in order to eliminate flour sugar and dairy.)

    BUT MY QUESTION WAS THIS:
    as long as i’m *drinking* about 40% of the pulp from the fruit/veggies i’ve juiced and then am using most of the rest of the pulp in other dishes, i don’t think i’m going to lose the benefits of lower the glycemic index of the whole food, do you?
    or any other many many benefits of the pulp, do you?

    thanks!

    yipes! it’s so late! going to sleep now!



  41.  #41danae on December 22, 2009 at 3:04 am

    janjune 🙂 I hope you slept well…

    I’m not completely sure how to answer that question as I can’t remember the source of the information I based my decision not to juice anymore.
    I feel that there’s the potential for raising your fructose intake with juicing because you need to put a few pieces of fruit through the juicer to get the same volume/output as a serve of fruit which is cut up – whereas if you just eat an apple or celery stick or carrot, you get ALL the fibre and less sugar (because you’ll be fuller faster). Drinking a cup of juice is a very efficient way to get loads of vitamins though, so go with how it sits with you and feel good about it.

    Does that make any sense?

    dx



  42.  #42alias girl on December 22, 2009 at 3:28 am

    jennifer for me i just am feeling my way through. i just keep following rori’s suggestions and tools (and then i throw in my contrary experiments!) and the whole way i try and feel waht feels best.

    it truly can be— and has often been for me— baby step by baby step. and then poof i find myself at a new normal. i feel happy you are following your feelings.



  43.  #43Katie on December 22, 2009 at 7:37 am

    Jennifer
    Yes, your question got me thinking and feeling just now. Leaning back or holding back.

    Could it be that ‘Leaning Back’ happens when we feel good about ourselves and strong on the inside, like a kind of by-product. With leaning back it’s when I feel good anyway, there is less expectation and ‘grabbing’ onto outcomes.
    Whereas ‘Holding Back’ is when when I’m feeling a bit more shakey around boundaries and self esteem so less strong on the inside, and it’s an effort not to lean forward. It doesn’t feel so good – holding back.



  44.  #44dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 9:21 am

    Angeline, I feel jealous that weed gets in the way of your emotions. For me it heightens them greatly. So I have avoided smoking very much because it feels too intense for me.

    It’s like when I get high I have epiphanies about things I have been in denial of…like that something with a man I’ve been seeing doesn’t feel good or I am being way too boy crazy and not focusing on myself.

    It feels great to see so many women here openly talking about smoking. Marijuana is a much safer substance than alcohol and it’s way past time that we start openly owning this as it is a rational decision to use a safer substance than alcohol for our recreation.
    Love,
    Me



  45.  #45Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 9:47 am

    I’m still wondering about whether I’m doing the lean back or the hold back.
    B emailed me “So I am confused. Is it over or is it only over if I don’t change or if I attempt to change will you reconsidder. I thought all was well and then you left me. I am still lost and confused about the whole situation. ”
    I feel sooooo angry about that!!!!
    I feel like I’ve told him and told him and told him!
    I even posted an email I sent him out lining what I want. and he STILL says he doesn’t understand!!!!
    W.T.F!!??!?!?!!?
    So when does explaining what I want turn into leaning forward?
    Like if he really wanted me shoulnd’t he be DOING things to make me feel better about the situation and not wasting my time asking me the same questions over and over?
    AUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    *primal scream*



  46.  #46dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 10:18 am

    ugh Jennifer sounds frustrating. I have been in that situation with someone I know! Grrrrr I want to scream with you.

    I tell the guy I know who does this that explaining the same thing over and over feels really bad, and I just leave it at that.

    I know that it is scary that saying this might not prompt him to do something to make you feel better. That he might shy away or be confused. But our trying to control the outcome or a man’s actions isn’t in our best interests anyway. To be encouraging, though, the couple of guys I’ve tried saying it feels bad explaining the same thing over and over to have eventually come around and tried to make me feel better with actions. Unfortunately for them and my sanity they never really changed from my original complaints that i explained over and over until i refused to do so anymore…



  47.  #47Aldonza on December 22, 2009 at 10:31 am

    What to eat?

    Breakfast was eggs, ham, some bacon (although purists avoid the sulfates and added sugar, I don’t think life without some bacon is worth living.) Depending on your sensitivity to any carbs, oatmeal can work. Essene bread with peanut butter. Or heck, leftovers. Who says breakfast has to be breakfast foods?

    Lunch was usually salad + chicken. Dressing was oil and vinegar or a no-sugar commercial dressing. Pile on the blue cheese dressing! Avoid the Raspberry Vinagrette with 15 grams of sugar. Soup was also a biggie, heavy on the veggies, omit the pasta/rice.

    Snacks were cheese, nuts, cut-up veggies with creamy dip, luncheon meats (again, the purists avoid them, but in the name of convenience, I did some.) Boiled eggs, whole milk yogurt with stevia and vanilla, tuna (love the pouches), occasionally a whey protein shake.

    Dinners were any form of protein, chicken (with the skin!), steak (well-marbled! Preferably grass-fed), fish, shellfish (with butter!), lamb, turkey, whatever. Veggies were of the lower carb/higher fiber, broccoli, cauliflower, green beans, cucumbers, tomatoes, sweet potatoes, spinach, bok choi, cabbage, etc. Some argued about carrots, corn and peas being too sugary. YMMV.

    I avoided rice, wheat, potatoes, corn. I ate some beans, and even found black soybeans that were almost 100% fiber.

    I did not limit my fat intake at all. I avoided all “fake” fats, and anything hydrogenated. Butter over margarine, everytime. And I lost weight doing it.



  48.  #48dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 10:36 am

    Ugh I feel so angry at myself and at food. I don’t want to change my diet for a healthier inside. I don’t want to give up pizza and strudel. I AM EATING STRUDELS AND COCONUT JUICE FOR BREAKFAST. Tomorrow is my birthday and I feel entitled because my party is tonight. I don’t want to I don’t want to I don’t want to give anything up. This sucks.

    I need hypnosis or something to make me feel like it’s actually worth it.

    My nickname is Gorda cuz I love to eat anything and everything and can out eat anyone. It’s an ironic nickname because I am physically in shape.



  49.  #49tinque on December 22, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Jennifer – “how to switch from holding back to leaning back? Anybody?”

    By keeping your heart open…welcoming, inviting, swirly, yummy, sensuous….

    Holding back brings me an image of a fist around the heart, a curling inward of the body, walls coming down.

    Sounds to me like B is clueless and will forever remain so. Sorry to be so blunt. I don’t usually offer such a straightforward opinion, but I’m cold as in it’s inhumanly freezing and have little patience right now, and he’s annoying me, has all along.
    xxoo



  50.  #50tinque on December 22, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Happy Birthday Dorothea!!!
    xxoo



  51.  #51tinque on December 22, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Happy! Happy!! Happy!!! to all the amazing goddesses here…
    May all your wishes come to you and more 🙂
    xxoo



  52.  #52Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 10:55 am

    hey Tinique
    He can annoy the living hell outta me too! I feel ok about blunt.
    My issue is that I have this overwhelming desire to be understood.
    I am smarter than the average bear and well spoken so for him to tell me he can’t understand me makes me NUTS!!!!
    Plus it feels like being whined at…like when a little kid says “I didn’t understand I wasnt’ supposed to hit my brother”
    At the same time I don’t want to be closed fist over the heart. I want to be yummy and open.
    Radical honesty rocks, but seems to leave me open to “misinterpretation”
    Again…it may be a passive / aggressive thing.
    And yet again…if I was distracted with a river of yummy men I prolly wouldn’t care about this one whinny little boy. If just feels like bad timing to start putting up profiles during the holidays.
    I may change my mind as Eharmony has a special on right now.
    I feel good about thier “29 levels” it feels less hit or miss to me.



  53.  #53Katie on December 22, 2009 at 11:06 am

    I feel panicky and uncertain. I am going to see my ex tomorrow, just to return some things I borrowed. I feel really unsure as to wether I should just call by with things, return them, then leave pronto. Or if I should stay a little while, coz we haven’t talked in a month or more. Arggh! Chance to do some feeling messages maybe? Or it could be a feeling mess-up! Oh god sometimes I feel so pathetic.



  54.  #54dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Hi Katie, What if you told him you feel unsure if you should just leave right away or if you should stay because you havent talked in so long, etc. Just pure feeling messages about how youre feeling about what to do now that you’re there. And then you ask him “what do you think?”



  55.  #55dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 11:37 am

    thank you tinque! i’m a whopping 25 now. Still getting mistaken for a high schooler wooooo yeah.



  56.  #56gina on December 22, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Okay, here’s what I think I need to say to G…”Wow, I am beginning to like the vision of a life together…but I feel resistant to really let myself go and “love hard” (like you say). I would feel better about believing in the big picture if I could experience the fulfillment of smaller pictures. Like, make a plan for next weekend and experience the fun of it and build a relationship THAT way, instead of making a life plan, and building a relationship based on a bunch of talk.”

    oooh, i just discovered that I’m a little angry!!



  57.  #57laughing goddess on December 22, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    For me, the diet that works best is lots of good fat like avos, oils, butter and lots of protein. I stay away from sugar but I do use raw unheated honey. I feel best on a mostly raw diet but not raw vegan. I eat raw dairy and raw protein such as sushi. Sometimes I even eat raw beef which I know sounds weird but is actually very common in traditional cultures (think steak tartare). Of course it’s best if it’s organic, from a high quality farm. I have been eating this way for five years and have never gotten sick from eating raw animal products. I have several friends who have been doing it even longer and we are the healthiest group of people I know.



  58.  #58laughing goddess on December 22, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Also I stay away from wheat products. I have found if I eat a little here and there it doesn’t bother me too much but I do gain weight from eating breads and such. Other than that my weight is very stable. So ya, fats and proteins are where it’s at for me…but only good fats, no canola or hydrogenated crap and really no processed foods.

    Not trying to preach…just sharing my experience. 🙂



  59.  #59gina on December 22, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    For me, being vegan didn’t seem ideal. my personality changed (although, I was going through adolescence …), it started hand and hand with the onset of anorexia, and when I had complications with surgery, I was told that my diet was nutritionally insufficient. adding eggs and dairy gave me the sense that my diet was more complete and balanced. Adding fresh fish to my diet feels like the final piece. It’s been a life long process, but i feel confident that I eat well.



  60.  #60gina on December 22, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    being around people who are super careful about food is very triggering, I noticed. Yet, I was vegan for 8 years, and one of those years I was getting help for anorexia…must be something in myself that I don’t like in others. I guess



  61.  #61dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    What if I don’t think it’s worth it to be careful about food? What if I prioritize eating what is delicious over my “health”? Does this make me crazy and masochistic (honest question)? I love eating delicious crap. I don’t ever eat processed or fast food but just love to eat cheese and pasta and steak and cake and all that.

    Life is short.



  62.  #62mary on December 22, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    gina:

    I like your idea about talking about smaller pictures! That sounds so nice. Like you want to just enjoy his presence, not think about anything else!



  63.  #63dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Yeah Gina’s speech rocks. I hope you don’t mind if I adapt it for my own use.



  64.  #64laughing goddess on December 22, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Diet feels like a very individual thing. We all need different things at different times in our lives. Sometimes just eating what feels good IS appropriate for me. I used to be very strict with myself and I feel much better when I lighten up a bit and have fun. For some people vegan is appropriate but I got very emotionally unstable when I was doing it. Learning to be easy on myself and others is probably the best thing I ever did for my diet. Now I find that I naturally gravitate to the foods that work for me and I feel good about it.



  65.  #65laughing goddess on December 22, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Love to all of you goddesses!!!



  66.  #66laughing goddess on December 22, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Rori: is it possible to get a copy of the Rose Cole interview? I wasn’t on the monthly subscription porogram then but I am now.

    Thanks!!!



  67.  #67Rori Raye on December 22, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    So sorry about the Rose Cole interview – the way we have the Monthly Interviews set up now – once they’re out, they’re gone…But I’m going to work at finding a way to get them all available to you individually – will let you know. In the meantime…just go to RoseCole.com and there’s so much to read there from her…Love, Rori



  68.  #68Rori Raye on December 22, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    Dorothea – what feels good in the moment doesn’t always feel good in the next moment. Having great sex with a strange man may feel good until 5 minutes after it’s over, and then it feels bad. Eating cake (cheese and pasta and steak sounds wonderfully healthy) – unless it’s made with agave or stevia – can feel wonderful one minute and terrible as your blood sugar crashes the next. It’s all in taking it all in and seeing how different things affect you….Trauma Responses feel good in the moment because they keep you from feeling the pain you would normally feel – but then they create an even stronger defense system, shut you down and tighten you up more….happy exploring! Love, Rori



  69.  #69Rori Raye on December 22, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    I personally do not think being a vegetarian is healthy for most people. I think it’s unnatural and very, very difficult to get all you need that way without overdoing soy and nuts – which have serious problems if you rely on them too much…That’s me and my research and talking with tons of people who’ve ended up with chronic disease, weakness (Bill Walton’s story), blood sugar mess and all kinds of body imbalances from not eating animal protein (I was a vegetarian for many years myself, and so was my daughter) – AND I know you all need to follow your own research and your own heart and mind and do what you feel is right for you. Love, Rori



  70.  #70Rori Raye on December 22, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    Aldonza – this is the diet and nutrition I find most recommended everywhere…Love, Rori



  71.  #71Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Girls…
    This is the reply I got to the email I sent and to the enquiry I sent regarding what he wants done with his digital camera and crock pot.
    I FEEL SOOOO FURIOUS!!!!!!

    You use the camera more than I do. I took it to basic so I could take pictures and show you what I was doing. You could see the people I was talking about. You would tell me about all the events you wen to and complain about not having the camera. So I left it with you and I have very few pictures of my time there. You can keep it. I can get another one. I don’t have a use for the crock pot now and I wont need one for a while. You can kep that too.

    It seems to me like I didn’t buy you enough when we were together. You left me so you can add them to the list of gifts I never bought for you. You send me links to articles about what women want. I know what you want. A $3000.00 ring, a house and a big wedding like your brother and sister have.

    I don’t have the money for that right now. You said you wont be with me until you get atleast the ring. You tell me that you will see other guys until I am able to provide you with those things. I assume these guys have them. I sould make Lt buy mid summer. When I get a raise I may have some of those things. Getting removed from course put a stop to some of my plans.

    I have your DVD player here. I am not sure if there is anything else here. I can get it to you before I go back.



  72.  #72Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    I want to slap this momma’s boy douche bag!!!!
    WTF!!!!

    At least 12 times we discussed weddings. I was very specific saying I did NOT want a big wedding like my B&S had. I feel like this is his mother talking.
    I told him specifically that I would rather live in a trailer at first to save money
    I feel like driving to his house to slap his face.



  73.  #73Lisa on December 22, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Jennifer,

    I think he does understand you, but he doesn’t “want” to. Men have selective hearing. He is hoping you will blunt your demands if you have to keep reducing and reinterpreting your message. At least, that has been my experience.

    Men don’t want it to be very tough, and if you make it anything near complex, they suffer brain whiteout. I’d put it on him: “What is it you don’t understand?”

    If you don’t wish to be with someone, I believe that is non-negotiable. Most men are able to take that as a “no”. It is usually women who are willy-nilly, and don’t want to take the “no”.

    Are you being very clear in you statements and intentions?



  74.  #74Lisa on December 22, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Danae,

    “it seems that men who are too in touch with their feminine activate my ’shadow’ parts and I feel repelled.”

    This is my experience, too. It has made me realize how irritating my probing questions must have been to my now -ex, who was more the “silent” manly type. I am with a very kind and strong man right now, but he’s definitely got that strong feminine side, and it really turns me off. I do not want to hear him whimper and whine when we’re intimate, and ask about what I’m thinking, etc.

    I thought I wanted more communication, but it is seeming to me now that I really don’t. I have become the silent male, resisting the new man’s efforts at communication very strongly. I am fascinating to see this cycle evolve.



  75.  #75Lisa on December 22, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    JanJune,

    Thank you for asking — Yes, I am going to commit to phasing out gluten after the 1st. It is in the name of health, as a may have Celiac disease. I have another health problem which may be impacted by this, so it seems a little thing in the name of possibly improving my health. I do not talking drugs!

    It will mean reading all labels for stealth wheat, rye or barley. But I am ready to feel better. I have been in a rut for a while. Even having one person to report into will help keep me on track.

    Thanks 🙂



  76.  #76Lisa on December 22, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Bad typist:

    “I may have Celiac disease”

    “I do not like taking drugs”

    Ahem.



  77.  #77Simply Shannon on December 22, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    Very interesting post. Earlier this year, I started focusing on my food intake. I didn’t concentrate on the “what” as much as the “how much”. Slowly, I started cutting out the bad stuff and now don’t even buy cookies or sweets to keep in the house. I do still eat some unhealthy foods and sugary things (Christmas is an absolute killer in this area – desserts everywhere!). And I’ve noticed since Thanksgiving and Christmas that I’m so much more tired. Normally I would attribute that to it being cold outside. I feel curious if it’s really the sweets. I’m going to try this no-sugar for a week challenge. Well, actually I’m going to quit smoking first (last pack being smoked as we speak – eck!!!). Then I’ll do the no sugar thing.



  78.  #78Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    and here is the reply…..
    sorry to take up so much space…I just need to vent.

    I feel like you are angry.
    I’m ok with you being angry…at least it’s an honest emotion.

    To clarify, however because you have things skewed.

    A) yes I do like a $3000 ring. I did not shop by price point, it’s just the one I want.

    B)I do NOT want a big wedding like Chris and Alana had …. I have been very clear on this point several times and I feel like you were not listening to me or are getting ideas somewhere else. I specifically said..”I don’t want to spend money on feeding people who never came to see my dad when he was sick. Fuck those assholes.”

    C)I specifically said I would rather live in a trailer at first…it seems more like what we could have afforded. Especially since theoretically we could get two and rent one out to the guys coming in on course to cover the cost of both. We spoke about this at length when I was at pet one time.

    D) I left you because after a year of treating me like shit every chance you got, finding out you lied to me was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Even though I knew you had lied to me, hearing you admit it and admit that you opened a joint account with your mother while leaving me on the hook for the OD made me snap. That and the PORN on the laptop.

    I feel so furious right now. I feel like you haven’t heard a word I said in the last year. I feel like I’m hearing your mother talk about “money grubbing women”

    I would like to point out that when I started dating you, you lived with your parents and drove your dad’s car. Clearly money was not my motivating factor. I fell in love with you the first time we kissed sitting in your DAD”S car. I tried to give you every cent I had several times. Who gave you $300 to go out with Eric before you went to St. Jean? Was I in it for the money? Give your fuckin head a shake.

    I would not move with you until you gave me a ring. Not because I wanted a ring to wear. Because after six years it was time for you to stop wasting my time. And why should I give up my life here to move away with a guy who doesn’t take me seriously enough to marry me?

    Other guys do not have these material things. There are no other guys right now. What they MAY have in the future is some fuckin respect for me. Something you are short on.

    What I want is on my feeling list. It does not contain ring sizes.
    Do yourself a favor and stop listening to your parents. They won’t hold you responsible for your behavior but the rest of the world will.

    What you are experiencing now is called consequences. You treated me like shit and I left.
    If you want me back…there is a feeling list for you to look at. But first you have to man up and accept responsibility for being a shit with me and stop blaming me for refusing to put up with anymore.

    Jen



  79.  #79Nikita on December 22, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Jennifer….

    I don’t see anything in his e-mail…….to trigger your response…..you went on the attack……

    Now- I am not saying you are wrong at all….but he writes that he has a plan….and…….I hear insecurity on his part for not being able to compete monetarily with other men.
    I also get the “big wedding comment” but it’s possible he just means “wedding with people”-not as pricy maybe but an EVENT just the same…….girl…..I’ve got love for you but……he really didn’t attack….I picked up some bad feelings from him ……woe is me energy but he sounds like he’s taking some responsibility and not being a dick….he is letting you decide about the dvd player….and he’s saying KEEP THE STUFF IT’S THE LEAST I CAN DO …

    xoxo
    nikita



  80.  #80danae on December 22, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    hi Lisa,

    “I thought I wanted more communication, but it is seeming to me now that I really don’t. I have become the silent male, resisting the new man’s efforts at communication very strongly. I am fascinating to see this cycle evolve.”

    I really GET this 🙂 – its reminds me of the difference (being discussed above) between holding back and leaning back, althought nowadays I have less and less to say because I question so many of my beliefs. Still, if I am to become a siren, there is the matter of giving feeling messages, so I try.

    except for those men that push my ‘shadow’ buttons – I refuse to communicate at all. We are done, as Rori would say.

    🙂



  81.  #81DejaVu on December 22, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    Jennifer –

    In a word…..AWESOME.

    You didn’t leave him ANY wiggle room…..



  82.  #82Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    hey nikita.
    Thanks for the input.
    My problem ( and the reason I went on the attack) is that he and I have covered this ground like 100 times.
    I’ve said the same thing over and over. It’s not about the money. There are things I want, yes. But when he says he figures I broke up with him because he didn’t spend enough money on me!?!?!?!? I go nuts.
    This is a guy who screwed me at almost every opportunity he had. Left me standing in a room full of people humiliated because he didn’t bother to introduce me to his buddies.
    Forgot our anniversary and yelled at me when I reminded him.
    Has a locked laptop full of porn and god knows what else.
    Left me on the hook for 2K of overdraft while moving his paycheck to another bank with his mother, and lied to me about it.

    I am trying hard to be fair, so thanks for the input. I am taking it under advisement.
    I just feel I need to make a strong statement here.



  83.  #83Nikita on December 22, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Jennifer,

    I’m with you on the strong statement. I feel very supportive. The Porn laptop is probably a deal-breaker for me…..but sometimes we go into auto-pilot and miss the shift- not that I know he’s shifting -I don’t know. . .but letting your heart soften a bit more….even towards him will prevent this cycle in the future-with other men…..you may meet an echo of this…..and it may only appear that way because rage blinds us sometimes to who and what we are really dealing with….just my experience..



  84.  #84Daria on December 22, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Jennifer –

    I feel really put off by the tone of your letter. I would feel better if it had simple feeling messages and dont wants. right now i feel triggered because I feel defensive, and I feel triggered that the letter doesn’t follow Rori’s guidelines… and i get triggered by stuff like that … interesting.

    I would say… I’m feeling angry and unheard, I don’t want to feel this way. I feel SO FURIOUS. – that’s pretty much what i get out the letter. The rest of what I “hear” in the letter is … im triggered! im trigger! blame defense blame defense trigger!!



  85.  #85Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    hey Daria…
    I agree..it’s not totally Rori guide lines.
    I did that before with other emails….I felt, i feel, I want, I don’t want and on and on.
    Then he comes back with he figures I left him cause he didn’t spend enough money on me.
    OH YEAH big trigger. And sooo blatantly wrong and bullshitty that I just felt I had to correct him. Like I said in the email, when I started dating this guy he took me on our first date in his dad’s car.
    What I have heard over the years is his parents spout such words of wisdom as “most women today are after a guy’s money” “Lot’s of girls will tell a guy they are on the pill but not take it so that they get pregnant and trap the guy.”
    So I know that this is where he’s coming from,
    Which is why I threw in the stuff about his mother.



  86.  #86dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    I feel happy that Jennifer is getting in touch with what she doesn’t like about how this man treats her instead of trying to endure it and chase after him. I was reading over the letter and thinking…how wonderful would it feel to just cut that letter down to 1 paragraph. Like, “I feel unheard. I meant it when I told you that I didn’t want a big wedding and that I would be happy to live in a trailer with you. I left because I don’t want to feel insecure and deceived. I need to feel (however you need to feel) and it doesn’t feel right to stay locked down in a situation that doesn’t provide those things etc etc. the end.

    what do you think?

    i think then men sometimes come back playing dumb like “what do you mean blah blah” and try to suck us into explaining for the millionth time the same thing…i’m trying to just not answer them and find something new to do in that moment instead of answering them…like “ohh, i’m going to the store so i have to let you go for now.”

    what do you all think?



  87.  #87dorothea on December 22, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    oh and maybe add “you are entitled to take your time getting your head/finances/whatever the heck his deal is together and i don’t want to pressure you..then more no girlfriend talk.



  88.  #88Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    hey dorthea
    I never thought of that.
    One paragraph would have done just nicely I think. Ah, well. Next time.
    As for the “I’m happy for you to take the time you need to figure out what to do with me” no girlfriend speech.
    I did that. Which is why he’s peeing his pants about me seeing some mysterious other guys. And blaming that on the idea that I want material things from them.
    As opposed to taking responsibility for me leaving him because he treated me like shit.
    This is his MO. It’s never B’s fault. And don’t give him a hard time about it…he had cancer as a kid.
    Whatever ….feck uff.



  89.  #89Jennifer on December 22, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    I actually feel really good about the support I have gotten here today.
    Thanks sirens. This is all very helpful.
    Yes I am full of anger…yes I do go a little far. But ya know what?
    I love my anger. I love going too far.
    I love the support I get here when I do those things. I love that there are women here who call me on it so I can do better next time.
    I love that there are women here who make suggestions and cheer me on.
    Hooray for Siren Island!!!



  90.  #90Rori Raye on December 22, 2009 at 6:36 pm

    Jennifer, I hear how angry you are, and righteously so. And I hear that you also vented and attacked (and yes – you were mightily triggered – reminds me of my “trading card” story – I’ll tell it in a post) – in this last email. I hear his confusion and not really getting what it is you’re talking about because he so believes he’s not good enough for you, can’t provide enough for you. This is his stuff, yes. And – after all this time, I’m so sorry you feel done with him, and yet feel happy for you that you’re able to feel done with him and move on. What I want to make sure of is that you’re not playing games with yourself about what you want and letting your anger get a hold of you. There are ways to let a clueless man know what’s going on…and somehow – the evidence here is that you and he are not communicating. You say something 12 times and he doesn’t hear you. He doesn’t BELIEVE what you say, because of his own assumptions. He’s a military man is what I’m getting, and this is a very hard life…I look forward to hearing more from you and figuring out how we can move you forward – with feeling your anger and expressing it, but not allowing it to swallow you and your dreams up. Usually, this kind of frustration and anger is about having worked so hard for a relationship. It’s the effort we put out that causes the anger to build. i know this reply is bits and pieces, I’ll try to jump off to a full post next week. Love, Rori



  91.  #91Rori Raye on December 22, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    Love you, Daria…your passion is fantastic…Rori



  92.  #92Lisa on December 22, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    Totally off-topic: I was perusing the abuse archives (as I am emerging from verbal abuse) and just wanted to share this wisdom:

    Rori says we actually hire men to abuse us because, “Love is simply pain” for many of us. “Without discomfort and pain and misery, it doesn’t feel like Love. Without having to WORK hard at it — it doesn’t feel like love.”

    But being nice in such a case “completely destroys his ATTRACTION to you because he considers any woman who’d be “nice” to him when he KNOWS he’s being a “jerk” to be pretty much “worthless.” His respect for you will go down – and your self-esteem will take the plunge with it.”

    It’s like Groucho Marx’s saying he wouldn’t belong to any club that would have him.

    Excellent –thanks, Rori.



  93.  #93mary on December 22, 2009 at 9:32 pm

    People want what they can’t have. Where is the sustainability? When there is a ring on our fingers, they have us.



  94.  #94Simply Shannon on December 22, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    Jennifer: Wow I felt the anger in your letter, and I feel certain B did as well. If I received that letter I would feel confused though because the anger screams “I’m done” but the words say “if you want me back…” I guess I’m wondering if you really want B in your life or if deep down you know you’re really done. If you want him back, I like the suggestions you’ve already received. If you’re done, it would feel better to me to simply say “ok” and get the stuff and be done, i.e. no contact. I know that feels difficult to do but why keep this conversation going if you’re done, ya know?



  95.  #95Grey on December 23, 2009 at 1:59 am

    Dear Rori,
    I love the advice that you give and it has helped me love myself and feel so much better but I have a dilima and is probably an issue most girls go through. Okay, so there is this guy at my work place that I’ve been falling for over a year now. Before I met him, I was confident, cool, and everything was about loving myself and just being in control of my feelings, but after meeting him, I was weak in the knees, my heart felt like it was going out of control, and I just fell head over heels for this guy, and what’s worse is that I can’t be myself around him. Any other guy, even the most attractive guys that I’ve considered to date a couple times; I can easily talk, flirt, and just know how to be approachable. On the other hand, with this certain man, and he’s not much of a talker himself and likes to be mysterious Mr. Smith most the time, it’s a simple small chat of “How was your day?”, “What are you doing later?”, the usual mistake I make that will probably bore him and loose any kind of interest in me. Then I followed your advice on the emails like the 5 seconds of silence rule then tell him how I feel, letting him know about how I feel, and even the disappearing act of circular dating, living life and going out there, and it has worked. I intrigued him so that we FINALLY ended up hooking up several times.
    Now I need your help. Though we’ve hooked up and things sparked, we still get this awkwardness of not knowing how to really communicate to each other. My scenario is played out like Meredith Grey and Derek Shepherd on Grey’s Anatomy. We’re on the elevator, we talk about our own personal business with each other, doors open, back to reality, then we act like we don’t even know each other. I understand that at work we need to keep things professional and I’m happy that I had just that small bit of time with him, but it’s also heart breaking and it hurts so much that that’s the only time and place that I have the opportunity or excuse to why I should talk to him.
    I really like this guy and I want more than just hooking up after work, and I don’t want him to be tired of me because communication is what’s lacking. I want to have a real relationship with him and foremost be a true best friend that he is willing and to be comfortable to share his feelings and secrets to with me. Do you have any techniques to having a relationship based on communication that could go on for more than five minutes and possibly a life time?
    Love Grey.



  96.  #96Jennifer on December 23, 2009 at 6:40 am

    More Emails.
    This one makes me cry……

    I am not angry. I am just trying to give you some of the information you requested. You want disclosure and when I try it just raises your anger level.

    I never said you shopped for a ring by price. You want things that, at this time, are well beyond what I can afford.

    As for weddings, sometimes you want one, sometimes you don’t. I am confused on that issue.

    I am not able to buy a house or trailer at this point. I can afford and apartment. You are not willing to move in with me so I will stay where I am.

    The over draft has now been taken care of. I never intended to make you feel like it was up to you to fix it. I did everything I could to keep it up to date.

    As for your comments about my mother I am sure you family has many negative ones about me too. I am sure you have told them about all the evil I have done. Your mother has never been a ball of sunshine around me. Your sister is mouthy with me and your brother rarely has anything nice to say.

    I do think money is a motivating factor with you. You want the most expencive things, you have told me to buy you a house, buy you presents and shiny things all the time. You are always saying “You could buy me that.” Mabye you were just kidding but it seems to me you want alot.

    If you don’t want to move I can’t force you to. You always say you hate your life here. I guess it isn’t so bad.

    In almost every email you have sent me recently you have mentioned that you will be seeing other guys. You told me you had offers and you would follow up on them. I bet I can name the first guy in line. If that is not the case I apologize for commenting on that issue.

    Your feeling list does not contain ring sizes that is true. It did contain a ring price. I will let you know when I have that amount. I guess times are changing. Women pick out the ring and the guy gives them a cheque. I am not the only one who feels this way. I read an article on CNN.com about it. That is what couples do now. To be sure the woman gets what she wants. Not a whole lot of romance there. That is the way I began to feel with you. Birthdays, Christmas, aniversaries ect. Tell me what you are worth and I will give you a cheque. Nothing I can pick out will be good enough.

    I admit I did bad things to you. You did a few to me too. You said things that upset me. That is the way you are. I accept that. You can be too blunt at times.

    That is what I have for now.



  97.  #97Jennifer on December 23, 2009 at 8:13 am

    I feel so frustrated.
    How many times do I have to say the same thing? This is bullshit.
    Yeah we used to talk about our dream house. OUR dream house. He complained about this “buy me a house” thing one time. I very clearly told him that a house was something we would do TOGETHER.
    I feel unheard. I feel blamed for preconcieved ideas that have nothing to do with me.
    He TOLD me to go look at rings because he didn’t know what to get me.
    I feel more anger.
    This triggers me. Ever since I was 14 I’ve had a job…most of the time it was two or three.
    I find alot of things that other people do a huge waste of money.
    I refuse to spend thousands on weddings or fancy cars or high end furniture.
    I’m the one out of the two of us who was responsible with money. HE insisted on shopping in the high end grocery store, not the cheap one. HE used to refuse to eat leftovers or anything I got at the farmer’s market.
    I worked two jobs the entire time we lived together … sometimes without a day off in 30.
    Now he thinks I left him because he didn’t buy me stuff.
    I feel defeated. I feel empty.
    I have a headache the size of the grand canyon.
    Why do I have to keep justifying myself?
    Because I can’t stand the amazing amount of self -serving bullshit coming out of his mouth.
    It’s much better to convince himself that I left cause I’m a greedy broad than the idea that he treated me like shit.
    AND who the fuck is the first in line? It’s prolly good for a laugh at least.



  98.  #98Linda on December 23, 2009 at 8:57 am

    Rori you are so wise. One line in a response to Jennifer… Its the effort that we put into a relationship that makes the anger build up.

    This makes me realize today that I dont feel anger today. I am not angry at my ex-husband anymore because I stopped putting effort into something that was broken and could not be fixed romantically speaking, however, we have maintained a friendship and I feel happy about that. Even though Mr Scrutiny drops into my life from time to time… I am not angry or upset today at him for not actually calling me yesterday (he asked if he could)…. because I did not put any mental energy into it.

    Amazing revelation to me. Keeping it real on all levels and investing when I am invested in will be a good skill to maintain. I like how I feel.

    Jennifer… we are with you here. Healing starts when the keg is opened and we are done. Change can come then…. this is a grand place to make that happen for you.

    Linda



  99.  #99Nikita on December 23, 2009 at 9:11 am

    SS,

    In regards to Jennifer- Word!

    “mudslinging only creates a mess”

    I got that in a fortune cookie ten years ago when I was dating someone who insisted I was materialistic. Funny thing is…he was living in MY apartment…..free!….he bought me dinner most nights but…….um…….Dude-you’re a momma’s boy…and if I was so materialistic I WOULD NOT BE DATING YOUR ASS……My electric bill doubled when he arrived (I didn’t watch t.v. or anything-he did) I asked him to contribute because it was an extra expense-he called me a gold-digger. HA! That’s when I knew some woman had warped his perceptions of what it is to be a man. He was renovating his house so it was temporary but geez……what a douchebag-to just take, take, and take….and think dinner can make up for the misery I was living. I am sooooo happy to be rid of him. BTW his mother owns the house he lives in. HA! must be nice……..must be nice…….



  100.  #100Nikita on December 23, 2009 at 9:16 am

    In any case…bickering about it with him…trying to “reason” with him….did ZERO except make an even bigger MESS…..until I just gave up my apartment, moved, and proceeded to vanish……and that was the official end to me dating anyone that needs to ask me for 20$ or anything!!!!!

    Man-UP or break out……my family won’t and never has taken care of me….so I suggest you go back to yours until you’ve thought about what being a man really is….and it starts with intention…..TO PROVIDE



  101.  #101Simply Shannon on December 23, 2009 at 9:53 am

    Jennifer, I feel no resistance in his email at all. He’s trying to talk. His email feels open to me. If you could talk to him past the anger, what would you say? What is really behind that anger? Do you love this man? How would someone who loved him respond to him?

    Softness…
    I feel angry. I don’t want to explain myself.
    I feel frustrated with our communication.
    I feel sadness that…
    I feel disappointed.
    I feel lonely.
    I love you and I don’t want to feel angry anymore.

    Can I look at a man as just a person? Not the one who owes me XYZ? Can I find compassion for where a man is at RIGHT NOW? Can I see that just because I can feel compassion for a man’s struggles that I do not have to make them my own? I don’t HAVE to be with any particular man until I KNOW he’s the right one for me. I can pick and choose who is in my life. A man is just a person, goofing it up like the rest of us and trying to find his way. When I look at a man that way, it feels so freeing. Yes, I still feel anger at times, but I can choose to have that in my life or not. It makes the level of anger a lot less hurtful when I take a moment to remember this is me choosing, not the man. ME.



  102.  #102Simply Shannon on December 23, 2009 at 10:00 am

    The words I just wrote are as much for me as anyone else. Mr. Manly Man is coming over AND I got a text from A last night. So crazy how the holidays seem to be full of people missing me. 😉 I don’t feel angry or triggered at all. I can be open and know that my heart won’t get ripped out if I don’t let it. I’m going to practice unzippering my heart tonight with Mr. MM.

    I’m also going to a Christmas service at my church. I cannot wait! I feel so excited. It should be a great service. One of the guys in my rotation is going to be there. I told him I didn’t feel comfortable inviting him myself since church is “my bubble”. I want to protect that time and keep it separate from “dating”. I don’t want to feel awkward in this place that I love so much. I’m sure I’ll see him though. He’s so cute too because he said he would follow my lead. When I told him a hug would feel great but no kissing, he laughed and said “you mean you won’t kiss me in church. Damn.” LOL! Very sweet. I’m looking forward to it all!



  103.  #103gina on December 23, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    last night G came over. he was upset cause I had been out enjoying happy hour with a friend. It was really just salad, appetizers and a couple of glasses of wine with my roommate…but he didn’t like it. He said that he gets the impression that I don’t like him at all because i’m putting forth zero effort. I don’t text or call, or ask him on dates…he has to do it all. I was like “waaah?” he asked me to order him a pizza, and then he was dissatisfied with the price and the tip that I gave the delivery person. He was a grump. And I said something about how I’m sick of talking…this relationship is built on a bunch of talk about the future, and the actual experience that we are having does not feel fun. It all feels like a bunch of sacrifices that I have to make, and life felt more fun when single. If I’m going to sacrifice my life as-is, then it better be for the sake of something better, and right not it’s not feeling better. I feel trapped and like I want to drink, smoke, get fat, break out!! He said that for him to really “court” someone, he can’t have her out at happy hour. Back in the day, women were courted cause they were innocent and at home, and they were seeing one man at a time, and the parents were involved…basically, me out at happy hour doesn’t inspire him to want to romance me. After a lot of talking, eventually we got all cuddly. We started having sex, and it felt pretty great at first, but then it started feeling like a chore. I let him know that I would like him to hurry up and come. He seemed to, but now i’m thinking he must not have, but I just felt overwhelmed, turned off and done – before he was even done with the first couple of heavy breaths, I said “Okay, G, I’m ready to have my bed to myself now. And I want to start dating other people, and you can be one of them if you want. And I don’t feel ready to have sex with you. I am not feeling any of this and I’m not up for it. Before, when I was dating lots of people, at least I got to have fun and get taken out…this is not fun for me and I’m done.” yikes…



  104.  #104Nikita on December 23, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Gina,

    Strength….wow



  105.  #105Jennifer on December 23, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    I have a roller coaster inside me.
    So many emotions to process.
    I feel cheated. I was raised that you had to be good. Which meant responsible and hardworking.
    Have a clean house and cook well and work hard at work.
    You had to look nice but not flashy, take care of people, be honest and direct and conscientious and smart.
    Be welcoming and friendly and a good hostess. Help strangers and hold doors and be patient.
    Be strong and don’t complain.
    Don’t expect too much or be greedy.
    Be generous and grateful.
    Don’t jump to conclusions, be fair, make sure you understand.
    And I am those things DAMMIT!!!!!
    I’ve nearly killed myself being those things. Over and OVer and Over.
    There was always an allusion to “getting a reward” if you were “a good person”
    There is no reward for me right now. Despite my best efforts. Despite nearly killing myself to be that person.
    I feel cheated by B and life. I feel so angry that I was lied to ( I don’t know who did it…but somebody sure did)
    I feel jealous of my girlfriends who don’t do these things and seem to have so much more than me.
    I was telling my parents about an incident that happened to me.
    That is what triggered me.

    I was in the staff room at the school. I was chatting with some staff about cocktails we like and another teacher came in. My sister and I had run into him at the local bar at her bachelorette party. He asked me what his item on the scavenger hunt list was, I told him he was “start a convo with a random guy about politics.”
    But I think she had tried to talk him out of his shorts.
    He asked who stopped him and I said “your buddy”.
    He said that was good cause he would have done it for her as she’s the hot sister.

    As I was telling my mom and dad this story…I just started to cry. I didn’t do anything to deserve that. I looked nice that night. I was polite to everyone, I organized everything and got us a cab home all responsible like.
    This then reminded me about the guy at the bar who looked me full in my face and said “ewwww” to me.

    So I told them about that too.
    And cried more.
    I didn’t deserve any of that.
    I’ve been good.
    I’ve been good to B.
    I’ve done the best I could. I did everything I thought I was supposed to do.
    I just want to go to bed and never get out.
    I want to sleep until spring
    I want to get a stack of books and never see people.
    People suck.
    Merry friggin Christmas.

    I hate feeling this way.
    I want to be bubbly and happy and soft.
    I’m not.
    I want these things to not stick to me.
    But they do right now. Like boiling sugar.
    I feel tense in my jaw. I feel a headache. The same one I’ve had for three days. I feel nauseated.

    I feel sorry for any man who tried to come near me right now.
    I feel defensive. I feel I have to protect myself.
    I feel like “yeah why don’t you just kick me first and get it over with?”
    I’m sure that’s not an attractive attitude.
    I feel small and mousy.
    I feel like hiding.
    I feel scared



  106.  #106dorothea on December 23, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    gina that is amazing. i feel so glad you spoke up for yourself.



  107.  #107gina on December 23, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    thanks ladies. I think I might need to work on the soft on the outside tool, though…dontcha think?



  108.  #108tinque on December 23, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    Jennifer – I’m so, so sorry you feel so badly. What horrible comments. Horrible. What awful people to say such things. So shallow.
    Feel this hurt as deeply as you can so you can let it go.
    Feel you fear. Feel your smallness.
    Then love on yourself.
    xxoo



  109.  #109gina on December 23, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    Jennifer, those people do suck. You are bigger better and more beautiful just cause they said what they did. I hope you feel better soon. XO



  110.  #110Lisa on December 23, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    Jennifer,

    No you did not deserve any of that bad treatment. This is why Rori is a godsend, because she, too, appears gentle and kind, and was pushed around. But she put her foot down. The way I’m seeing it, the poor treatment stops when we say, “We’re done with it.” No more.

    Yeah, we were sold a bill of goods. One bill was “Cinderella”; it said, be the long-suffering servant, a martyr, even. It is too much to hope for equal treatment with your sisters. Someone will enjoy being waited upon by you, and you will somehow be remunerated in the end.

    The other bill was the Princess and the Pea or that sort of thing: That woman expects a night in shining armor. She is always Rapunzel, always lovely. Still, the man rescues her, but she knows her worth. Depending on our mothers and our family tradition, we bought into one script or the other.

    It seems to be a lot about energy, as you acknowledge. This is a supportive community in which to air our feelings. I’m glad you did, because I don’t feel mousy alone, now 🙂 Oh, and I reject the martyr script.

    I had a really big awakening last month. It was this: Jesus martyred himself to redeem man, and how well has that worked out. (See Tiger Woods as exhibit A.) So, if J.C. couldn’t redeem man, surely I will not. So I have decided to STOP! I feel a lot freer.

    You may enjoy Eric Idle’s “Fuck Christmas” right about now:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqfZUX5svCg



  111.  #111mary on December 23, 2009 at 8:38 pm

    Jennifer: Wow. You sound like you’re really down! i’m so sad about that. And glad and amazed that you have parents you can talk to about things so close to you. That’s awesome.

    Gina: Oh Gina! You really risked it with this guy! That gives me a little power boost just to hear about it! Way to go. Way to stick to your plan (and what a difficult thing to do! I’ve failed so many times…) My speech is gonna have to happen soon. Not looking forward to it! How do you feel now? What happened after that? Have you heard from him? Is it really over? : ( (A little bit sad for you, too.)



  112.  #112Simply Shannon on December 23, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    Gina: OMGosh! Wow, wow, wow! Okay, I won’t go too far down this path but I feel happy to hear your strength. I felt annoyed hearing all of the things you were giving up about your beautiful life. I feel bad for saying that since it’s based solely on my experience with Mr. Manly Man. (I just posted about Mr. MM on the newer post.) I would feel manipulated hearing that a man doesn’t want to romance me because I’m out at happy hour (which is crap by the way). He isn’t pursuing because he doesn’t want to. Period.

    I do feel curious how things ended after your speech. I loved the strength you showed. The bluntness felt right to me. I’m just wondering if maybe these were feelings you had all along, and they weren’t fully expressed (you said them here but I don’t know if you talked to G about them). If not, maybe they finally bubbled up and came out all at once.

    I don’t know. It feels like there’s a lot going on here. I struggle with this one too so I’ll probably write more tomorrow. I want to work this one out. Maybe we can help each other? My secondary thought that popped up (after WOOHOO! 😉 ) was wondering if this a defense mechanism to protect us from true intimacy? Like maybe it’s easier to say “I’m done” (which I did with Mr. MM too) than to go deeper to figure out the real emotion there. I just feel curious about this. I still feel proud of the way you handled things but I know I was feeling scared all along reading how things were going with G. So a part of me feels relieved. I’ll write more tomorrow.



  113.  #113gina on December 24, 2009 at 2:17 am

    yeah i dunno…. dealing with a guy who is looking for “a wife” is different than the typical guy rori seems to write about. And I felt weird about it all along. I have to admit that I feel bad about the loss of the vision of “us” as a family. the home in the country…the animals… the townhouse downtown…booo. his mom is mexican, and it seems like what he really wants is the traditional mexican housewife, even though he says he wants “a hybrid.” He says that women are far more dynamic than we once were – that we can be consulted for realestate decisions,etc…but I was like “I have my own vision of what I want, and it is beyond what you have decided for yourself. and I’m not willing to give that up for the sake of your vision…” I dunno. cause I believe that he would be a good “provider” – but i don’t trust that he would be completely faithful. and I don’t feel certain that i could maintain my own identity. but the main thing was that I wasn’t even having fun dating him. I was aware of what he was asking me to give up, but I wasn’t experiencing anything new or better than what I had before, and that’s what ticked me off! I’m not in a pathetic enough situation to conform to his definition of “wife”. he kept saying that “everything we do from now on goes on record. I want to be proud to tell the grandkids that as soon as I met your grandmother it was just us…” etc. I didn’t like that. I would much rather just organically develop a story worth telling the grandkids….but I’m not interested living for their sake. I want to live for my own sake, and I want them to live for THEIR own sake…but I do miss the vision of me falling in love with a rich guy…



  114.  #114gina on December 24, 2009 at 2:21 am

    and no, I haven’t heard from him… he said “i’ll text you in the morning, or you text me…” but I didn’t text him, and i didn’t hear from him. I would be surprised to hear from him at this point though… I literally told him that i wanted my bed to myself within 3 seconds of sex…



  115.  #115Jennifer on December 24, 2009 at 4:22 am

    I am working at being soft.
    I do not feel soft right now. I feel all teeth and claws.
    I want to bite a hurt and gouge.
    Or run and hide.
    I feel judged.
    I feel so disappointed in our communication.
    I feel sad and lonely.
    I feel I gave everything I could to make it work
    I feel a ring would have meant commitment
    i feel a house would have been a commitment
    I feel it’s natural to want those things.
    I feel cheated
    I feel turned off.
    I feel like I’ve had my hand slapped.
    I would have felt thrilled if he had said he wanted to pick out a ring. I feel he told me to go look at them cause he didn’t know what I liked.
    I feel like there’s no way for me to be “not the bad guy” here.
    I feel like I can’t win for losing.
    I feel like I would have lived in a van down by the river with him if I felt like the center of his universe.



  116.  #116Simply Shannon on December 24, 2009 at 7:10 am

    Gina, I feel good reading your post. All of the words in the world meant nothing because you weren’t having fun. Kind of simple, huh? Why do we do this to ourselves? It’s the same response Rori describes… choosing pain over fun/happiness. I feel interested in your comment about feeling that way all along. How could that have gone differently? What was his message?

    I really feel so proud of you. I think we are both struggling with the same things (expressing feelings upfront and fear of intimacy). Does that resonate? I love hearing how things are going for you. I don’t want to lose my vision of happily-ever-after with a provider though. That one is still solid for me even if the man I experienced it with (Mr. Manly Man) removed himself from my rotation (until last night – haha!).

    Your post feels so different to me than when things went bad with Johnny. It feels strong, like you just said “I’m done” and you’re not beating yourself up about it. I really do feel proud of you!



  117.  #117mary on December 24, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Simply Shannon:

    I’m so encouraged that you and MMM are suddenly on the same spiritual wave length. Who knows what can happen now? I’m excited about your spiritual awakening; I can feel the big ripples and waves radiating out from Siren Island. It feels refreshing! And hearing about what’s happening with you makes me feel so alive.



  118.  #118mary on December 24, 2009 at 11:04 am

    gina: “women can be consulted for real estate decisions…”

    YES! very, very soon!



  119.  #119dorothea on December 24, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    I feel defensive about Gina’s latest guy because he didn’t like her going to happy hour and suggested it makes her a bad girl. Grrrr I feel angry. I feel like ripping his possessive crazy red flag out of his hand and shoving it up his ass. I feel guilty for being so strongly opinionated about this. I love my guilty feeling.



  120.  #120gina on December 25, 2009 at 1:26 am

    Dorothea, I agree!! Totally annoying, standing there with his red flag, suggesting I was “bad.” Ri di cu lous!

    SS, thanks for the great questions and feedback.
    I don’t regret trying the little experiment of going with his fast and furious flow…it helped me realize that i really don’t care what a man says, and I don’t care how “perfect” he is…I really want a good relationship that feels good and fun. and I really value my life and feel confident that I have no room in my life for men who don’t step up. When I say “i felt it all along”, I am acknowledging that I felt trapped from the moment we started talking about exclusivity…but I still don’t regret that I did it – it was literally 1 week. It left me feeling so liberated and free now that it’s done. It was one of those experiences that has left me feeling super appreciative of what I do have, and excited about attracting more of what I did like about him. I desire abundance much more than I did before he started speaking to me about our “ideal” life together. And I learned interesting things from his abundance mindset: for instance, when he chews or offers gum, he always takes 2 pieces because he views it as “treating himself.” I appreciate that he achieved success in terms of his career, but I also witnessed that his thinking was super limited in terms of relationship. He had a poverty mindset when it came to my love, because he believed that he needed to grab it, control it and hold it tight. I would have been happy to give love, but there’s no way I was gonna be held down. NO WAY! So he wasn’t even that dangerous for me because this never felt very seductive. HOWEVER, I am so glad he came along right before I saw Johnny – I think it helped give me strength to cut ties. For some reason, Johnny’s bad behavior really got me hooked, and Gary’s did not. But I feel glad to be free of both of them now. On to bigger and better men…Seriously, cutting off men who aren’t that into me feels so empowering and good.



  121.  #121Rori Raye on December 27, 2009 at 6:43 pm

    Grey – I don’t want things to be so hard…you seem to be doing wonderfully – just keep doing what you’ve been doing – and the key to comunication is Speaking the Truth and using Feeling Messages. good luck! Love, Rori



  122.  #122Honey on January 3, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Since reading this post, it has helped me a lot in terms of re-adjusting what I consider rewarding to be. It also became clear to me that toxic men and sugar feel the same to me. What a rush but the high ends and it drops you…and al you can do is crave the next fix. That is NOT rewarding. Taking care of me and my body is rewarding and feels so good. Thank you so much Rori!



  123.  #123Rori Raye on January 4, 2010 at 12:20 am

    Honey, Welcome, and thank you for your comment. Love, Rori



  124.  #124Candace on February 25, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    Reading this post and all the comments has been very enlightening – especially related to sugar consumption. There is always a balance that needs to be maintained. Even if you are an endurance athlete, you cannot simply eat whatever you want because you’ll burn off the calories. What you put in your body affects its output. All things in moderation and natural sugars are much better than some chemical substitute.



  125.  #125Rori Raye on February 26, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    Hi, Candace, Welcome, and thank you so for giving your take on this…look forward to more posts from you. Love, Rori



  126.  #126Turtle Girl on February 26, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    This is a fascinating post. I was “ill” for years. Too long a story to go into. The bottom line is this-I found out I have food allergies after going to an ND. I am allergic to sugar (and wheat and a bunch of other stuff too)

    I stopped eating everything I was allergic too and all the toxins got cleared out of my system and I am no longer “ill” I was able to quit taking a prescription medication that was costly and had side effects and of course did not cure anything.

    Sugar is nasty. I never eat it anymore and I feel better than I have ever felt in my life. Many of the foods out there today are not good for us at all.
    Why does everything-even tuna in a can have soy in it? There is not reason to do this? Even chicken broth has soy in it? Why? I almost think there is some sort of weird plan to make us all sick so they can sell us all the drugs. GMO soy is nasty stuff.
    I don’t drink milk either and feel great.



  127.  #127WISDOM TEETH REMOVAL UTAH on October 8, 2010 at 9:52 am

    The no sugar challenge is so hard, there is sugar in pretty much everything.