What Do I Have To Do To Make You Love Me?

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0608262920-sidewglassessmallWatching a Tony Robbins video – http://getrmt.com/mieke.html I asked myself “What is the biggest “story” I tell myself in my life?”

I picked a few situations I thought were possible, and then drilled down to: I don’t want to hear what you have to say…I feel resistance…ooooo…you’re asking something of me…no…I instinctively get in gear to have to DO something, now! I have to DO something to…be better, stronger, smarter, happier…to please YOU…

I blame someone else, I blame myself – and

THAT’S a smokescreen!

I simply am trying to “figure” out what it is I need to do – why I didn’t do it, what you or my parents, or anyone else forgot to tell me so I’d know what to do, or made it hard for me to know what to do, or hard for me to do it.

And so I’m angry.

Angry that I have to do anything at all.

Angry that I can’t figure out what it is I need to do.

Angry at the effort and energy I put out figuring out what to do, doing so much, throwing everything at the wall hoping it will stick, making my life a vision board!

And so my entire relationship to anyone around me can be a constant power struggle.

Because I need to be loved and approved of, my mind will:

Try to categorize and prioritize who’s most important, who I need to please first, who I don’t have to please, whose anger or disappointment I’ll have to stem first, what hole I’ll have to plug first.

I run around stopping leaks, collecting the love I can, shutting myself down when it doesn’t appear that love is coming towards me.

I want to place – not just blame – but responsibility somewhere, anywhere else but on me – because I see and experience my responsibility as my responsibility to do what I have to do to please YOU! To do what I SHOULD be doing. To do what’s important to…I’m not sure who.

So, here I am, figuring out who’s important, what’s important, thinking of myself as an instrument, as a SERVANT.

And my pay isn’t money (though that serves as a feeling of accomplishment, and I’ll take that as proof you like me…) – it’s a smile, a nice word, a touch, a sense that you think I’m important. It’s appreciation. It’s attention.

So – are we all like this? All babies doing anything and everything for attention?

Like my dog, doing anything and everything for food? She’s now figured out how to play – how to LOOK like she’s playing, engage me in play – do what she HAS to do to get me to FEED her! To give her an extra snack.

Am I like my dog, just on a more “sophisticated” level (though I think it’s pretty sophisticated that my dog has figured out SO MUCH in order to get me to feed her (she’ll offer to go outside to pee a million times a day, when she doesn’t have to pee at all – to earn my goodwill and get an immediate reward of food).

Have I learned, just like my dog, what chords to play, what to say, what to do to get your love?

Have I even asked…“For what reason do I believe I don’t ALREADY have all the love I could ever need, require, want, desire?”

*Could it be my belief that it isn’t there already that’s blocking me from even SEEING the love that’s all around me, ready to come to me?

I see this with my clients. They believe they’ve tried everything for love. They’ve done Online Dating (and then I look at their profiles and see horrid, unflattering, fuzzy pictures with other men in them, I see profiles written like resumes, I see fields not even filled out.

I see bad haircuts, and no makeup, and clothes that hide figures.

I see tense bodies.

It gets me to notice my own tense body – a good practice, because, after all, there really is no one out there but me.

Who do I think I’m living this life for?

And that’s the question I ask myself today.

Do I believe that if I live my life in a way that focuses on my good feelings, health and happiness, without taking anyone else into account, and yet LOVING and Radically Accepting everyone and everything else around me – I’m somehow “doing it wrong”?

This is going to be a long series of essays, with Tools for healing, about how to turn this on its head.

Just the simple awareness – at every moment – of “Where am I coming from?” “For what reason am I thinking this or saying this or doing this?” is enough to dissolve the “doing” that blocks my experience of love.

Instead of believing I need to find it and get it – all I need do is allow it in.

What makes this so challenging for us all is EVIDENCE. The only evidence we have that anything works is our past experience, what we’ve been taught, our habits, what we believe to be true. It’s BECOME the truth so much, that letting go of this feels like death.

We have NO evidence to go forward into what is, to us, the complete UNKNOWN.

And, we can’t rely on our knowledge to help us make the unknown less scary, because that knowledge comes from the same place that got us stuck and kept us stuck for so long.

So, not only do we have to step into some Unknown, we have to do it with No Brain. No Information. No Knowledge. No Cheat Sheet. No Clue.

Wow. Talk about facing fear.

So – here’s what I want you to tell yourself: “I need do nothing.”

It doesn’t mean nothing will happen. Doesn’t mean love won’t show up big time. It just means – “I don’t have to know what to do, or flail around trying to figure out what to do – in order to MAKE it happen.”

It doesn’t MATTER “whose responsibility” something is. It doesn’t matter who made what happen, or who did what to who, or what happened to us. It doesn’t matter how hurt or tired, or afraid or angry we feel.

In so many ways, the world is an illusion – made up of our particular, single-sided view of the world. It is a made-up universe of our mental habits. It’s seen the way it’s seen, interpreted the way it’s interpreted, for so many reasons. Our past, our experiences, our internal system of cells, mitochondria, images, memories, brain synapses, neural pathways, and the collective unconscious we all feel.

If this is so – then what could I possibly figure out that would make you love me? OR – perhaps I could spend some time figuring out how to make YOU love me, and then not be able to figure out how to make HIM love me.

I’ve spent my life, then, trying to be loved – when, I could so much more easily believe I’m already loved, and that I don’t have to DO anything to “make that happen.”

Since we have no idea what the “truth” is – I choose to believe in what I’ve just made up here.

It feels good. I calm down. I relax. My body relaxes. I feel “home,” I feel “with me,” I feel connected to me and to the world. I don’t have to figure you out. I just have to let you love me – however it is you choose to do that.

Sometimes your love will match up with what feels good to me, and sometimes it won’t. And sometimes we can talk and work it out – because it’s a good match. And sometimes – it just isn’t. There’s too much work.

I believe in the work needed to create an environment of love. Of home. I do not believe in worrying about whether or not this has anything to do with your loving me.

I believe an environment of love and acceptance and attention can dissolve your blocks to love, and so you might find your love for me.

But those things are exactly what I’d do for myself – so I still don’t have to DO anything to make you love me.

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1Elsie on July 10, 2013 at 11:51 am

    I need do nothing.

    Such a small sentence, but so difficult for me.

  2.  #2Wildgeranium on July 10, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    Everyone expresses love differently. Sometimes we just don’t respond or feel good about how someone else expresses love. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just a bad fit. Personally, gifts mean nothing to me. So if I was with someone and that was their main way of showing love, it just wouldn’t work. CW expresses love with his time and with doing services like building things or giving advice on things he’s knowledgable about. Once I realized that, I was able to relax a lot and see that he was giving a huge amount of love to me. For me touch is the most important thing. I had to communicate that to him. And it meant a lot when I noticed him reaching out to give that to me. And, I still have to initiate it a lot with hugs throughout the day when were together. But, he gets it and it works for us.

    I think giving is love. But love is also accepting. It’s both things together. If one side is missing in a relationship, then it won’t work.

    Reposting to follow new thread…..

  3.  #3Elsie on July 10, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    @Wildgeranium – I have zero care for gifts too. Zero. Although I LOVE flowers. I have a big deal with acts of service and quality time. Those are my love languages, and touch too. 🙂

  4.  #4April Rose on July 10, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    “Sometimes your love will match up with what feels good to me, and sometimes it won’t. And sometimes we can talk and work it out – because it’s a good match. And sometimes – it just isn’t. There’s too much work”


  5.  #5April Rose on July 10, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    “I believe an environment of love and acceptance and attention can dissolve your blocks to love, and so you might find your love for me.

    But those things are exactly what I’d do for myself – so I still don’t have to DO anything to make you love me.”

  6.  #6Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    So I had a talk with D tonight.

    And I welcome your feedback about it.

    I saw him and we spoke. He was not unaffectionate, but he was reserved. He did put his arms around me and hold me, but when he was talking to me I sensed a lot of reservation in him.

    First he asked me what I wanted to talk about, but I told him that I wanted to listen to what he had to say. I was more interested in *hearing* him than speaking.

    And he spoke to me about his main concerns, which I will detail in a little bit, and afterwards he said “that’s it” in a resigned way. And I made as if to go, and he said, “so maybe you should take tonight to think about what I’ve said and we’ll talk tomorrow”, and then he kissed me, slow and deep and passionate and affectionate, and touching me gently.

    And I went home, promising to talk to him on Skype tomorrow when I’ve had a chance to think about what he’s said.

  7.  #7Millie on July 10, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Thank you Rori…
    this is such a beautifully perfect post.. “i need to do nothing.” That really says it all. I realize how I create my environment with old habits and comfort zones interacting with people on a level I’m used to. I’m finding it hard to find my personality within feeling messages.

    I went on a date Sunday. I didn’t really WANT to go…but I WANT to welcome energy coming towards me, so I went, but it felt forced. He is a nice man, but not for me. At one point he took me into a Barnes and Noble and proceeded to pick a book and read about my sun sign,moon, sign, whatever the f*ck sign about me while I was standing right there. Instead of getting to know ME, he spent time reading about me. I could not believe it. He could tell I was annoyed and continued to read anyway. I told him I would not feel right going on a second date.

    Musician called yesterday, we talked for a bit. I’m asking myself where my attraction for him is coming from? I feel like he prefers to hear himself talk than me, and also is very preoccupied about money…which doesn’t feel fun to me. He seems very practical, which I understand, but also doesn’t feel fun. We have plans to get together next week, since this week we are both too busy. We will see what reality brings….if it happens it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t. I feel ok with that.

    Awhile ago i posted about my ex, who surprised me with saying He’d always want me….and saying some really sweet, truthful comments. After the conversation I really felt like leaning back, leaning back hard. I’m doing well with it, haven’t heard from him, but I intend on not leaning forward one bit. Sometimes I feel like our connection is so strong, that the relationship can be turned around, other times i doubt it. This comes back to Rori’s post about the stories we tell ourselves and believing that people love us. I do believe he loves me….I love him too. I can bathe in it, but I don’t need to do anything.

  8.  #8Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    He said he would like things to work out but he has a lot of reservations and concerns.

    He said his two main issues were, that when he felt we had agreed to something, getting together and doing something, that I always wanted more and he would feel that we’d reached the boundary of what we were going to do, and I’d linger on, and he didn’t want to be the one to hurt me by asking for time alone, or saying that there was something else he’d planned to do afterwards, for example. He said he needed us to stick to things we’d agreed to.

    And then he said that he has a huge problem in that he likes things on an even keel, and he doesn’t have a great deal of emotional output, so when something feels the slightest bit off or not going well, his first response is to withdraw so he can get back to his happy place. To just get away from the situation as quickly as he can so he can spend some time alone and get back to equilibrium again. And he said I will want to fix things and that makes him want to retreat even more and pushes him away. Where I actually just need to LET him go. He said this is absolutely essential for him to be happy within himself, and more intensity and engagement at this point makes him absolutely miserable.

  9.  #9seahorse on July 10, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    Be the lily………….. already loved……… be the lily.

  10.  #10Sassy on July 10, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Sometimes men, love, relationships, dating, marriage, etc
    just FEELS exhausting!

    I am gonna go on a men, love, relationship, dating, s&x,

    And just do nothing

  11.  #11Femininewoman on July 10, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    I felt sad, deep sadness in my heart reading this article. Hopeless. Helpless. Despair.

    All these emotions, sadness that I have been trying to figure out how to get someone to love me.

    I feel my heart contracting, tightening just thinking about what to do to make someone love me.

    Now I feel the cells in my right breast tightening. My right eye fluttering and my right shoulder tensing up.

  12.  #12Femininewoman on July 10, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    I send love to myself, to my heart from me.

  13.  #13Cristin on July 10, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    This is just so beautiful. I feel so peaceful reading this, so hopeful. Thank you.

  14.  #14Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    (((Feminine Woman)))

    Definitely noticing that feeling come up for me too.

    And yet I noticed I got a glimpse of what Dominique talks about, spiraling up into wonderfulness earlier today.

  15.  #15April Rose on July 10, 2013 at 1:43 pm


    To answer your question: yes, I did have the Right Man report by Carol Allen and , yes, energy flows from me to him in the relationship. Which means that I will always have ideas and wants *first*, so in that sense I’ll always be the one initiating (mentally).

    Masculine and feminine energy in reverse (back to front) flow.

    Aaagh. So very frustrating, as Carol points out.

  16.  #16Liquid Light on July 10, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    Indigo, He’s still there and wants to talk about things with you so I think that’s GREAT news! 🙂

    Does what he said make sense to you? Can you see how you could make any changes that might help? (If you want to that is.)

    How was your trip btw?

  17.  #17Femininewoman on July 10, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    Indigo – thank you

    afterwards he said “that’s it” in a resigned way – doesn’t feel good to me. Suggest a mentality of settling.

    “and then he kissed me, slow and deep and passionate and affectionate, and touching me gently” – suggests to me that there is just a little something he needs to “tip him over the edge” without which he might not be able to move forward.

  18.  #18Shar Lean Way Back on July 10, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Indigo, although I can see what he is saying, it doesn’t feel good to (me). You might be ok with it. But the one thing I can see you doing is not trying to “fix” . Right..we all do it..I’m getting better. But I think cding is the way to go here. Oh my, there are so many men out there. yum
    So, as Rori would say, he is just doing what he does and you can choose. You can keep dating/seeing him and circular date. Then when he takes his alone time it’s no biggie cause your out with somone else 🙂

  19.  #19Liquid Light on July 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    Yeah, agreed, def CD and keep dating him.

    It’s interesting cuz he’s telling you exactly what he wants. Do you see any truth in what he’s saying?…I bet you do. Its great that he can communicate so clearly. Be the cool girl here – do what he wants, be cool, and I bet you’ve got him in the palm of your hand 😉

    I remember last year, when I was panicked about my relationship, but I took RR’s advice and was an invitation (even though all I wanted to do was run away because I was so upset) and the whole thing turned on a dime. It was amazing…I’m not saying to be an invitation…I’m just saying change your behavior and you never know what might happen!

  20.  #20Wildgeranium on July 10, 2013 at 3:00 pm


    “That’s it” is what men say when they are completely done talking. They’ve said it all. They say “that’s it” or “that’s all” or words to that effect. If you hear that it’s a good sign that you have not interrupted and they have expressed everything they need to. Got that out if the queens code and its definitely true. As far as the “resigned way”– I think that is projection by the listener (Indigo).

  21.  #21Wildgeranium on July 10, 2013 at 3:10 pm


    Indigo- what he said sounds honest and reasonable to me. The first thing is very understandable.

    The second thing- it sounds like he is picking up on your moods or vibe. And that you can totally change. It sounds like that’s what he needs to feel safe. He may be the type who takes a long time to feel safe and comfortable. He even said that it makes it worse when you try to fix it– fixing is masculine energy.

    It sounds like he is asking you to lean back. And with a tender touch and kiss making it clear that he cares and wants to keep seeing you.

  22.  #22Luzydel on July 10, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    I won’t do anything, ’cause there is no man out there capable of loving me. An every time I open the door to have someone prove me wrong I get hurt and I am tired of trying, so I will not do anything and find deep within myself that love that I am missing.

  23.  #23April Rose on July 10, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    “I’ve spent my life, then, trying to be loved – when, I could so much more easily believe I’m already loved, and that I don’t have to DO anything to “make that happen.”

    I need do nothing.

    Phew. Long, relaxing outbreath……

  24.  #24April Rose on July 10, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    “…And sometimes we can talk and work it out – because it’s a good match. And sometimes – it just isn’t. There’s too much work.”

    Hmm. Feeling my way through this one.
    Constant misunderstandings with WM feels like too much work.

  25.  #25April Rose on July 10, 2013 at 4:18 pm

    Are you someone who ‘hangs on’ rather than ‘moves on’?

    I’m definitely a hanger-onner!

    Persistently waiting/hoping/trying for improvement or simply putting up with a relationship that doesn’t feel right.
    Long past the time I could have moved on.

    This was confirmed recently as a feature in my Vedic astrology chart.

  26.  #26Elsie on July 10, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    “Thats it”.

    I LOVE that. If anyone has read the queens code, this is PERFECT AND EXACTLY what men do. They say everything they have to say and then say literally “Thats it.” I’ve had men do that too. The problem is that usually women interrupt them before they get to that point – I think its AWESOME. It means that that is all there is you dont need to think that there is anything more – you have ALL the information you need ot make a decision.

    I love that you decided to take time to think about it Indigo!! Great move.

    Frankly, GS said very similar things to me. I think this is who he is. I think he wants to be with you but he also needs to have his own independent alone time. You have to decide if thats ok with you – if it is, then stay with him. If not…..then find someone more matched to you! 🙂

    I think its awesome that he has a ton of ability to communicate what he wants. I just dont see that this is a bad thing at all – you totally know what he wants now and hte fact that he kissed you means he still wants to be in this with you – typically men never do anything they dont want to. 🙂

    This would have been a perfect time for him to bail – you were gone, it was a perfect break up time. He did not choose to take the exit ramp……its a perfect opportunity to grow together by allowing each other the space to do with what you need.

  27.  #27BeLoved on July 10, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Syreena, have you done any of Dr. Margaret Paul’s programs by any chance?

  28.  #28Olivia on July 10, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    This post is deep, almost esoteric. I look forward to the “tools” Rori mentions to understand it better.

    And per update, I’m at 6.5 months in practicing the Rori tools. Things just keep getting juicier and better with my BF of one year.

  29.  #29Heart on July 10, 2013 at 5:06 pm

    Indigo – well…what exactly does he want..a committed relationship?
    I think it’s awesome how he opened up…good for all of us to read.

  30.  #30Miss Bells on July 10, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    HS is back from Europe and it is very comfortable. He says he thought about me a lot–wished I had come with. This is a big breakthrough.

  31.  #31Melanie Murphy Myer on July 10, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    Aw, Rori, I love what you wrote here! Thank you. <3

  32.  #32Elsie on July 10, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    Just venting how I feel. Today GS and I spoke a lot – about work, etc. He helped me with some other things. It was nice. But then I was reminded that we had decided that we were not going to text in the evenings and weekends. That was jarring to hear again. I think I had started after yesterday to start to slip back into loving him, wanting him, forgetting that we had made this arrangement or whatever to wait. It sure didnt feel like waiting to me, it felt comfortable, familiar, and the probalme is that I know that it isnt, so I need to dial this back I think.

    I dont know what that means. Maybe no contact? Or limited work contact? I dont know.

    I am just trying to go through this the best way for me.

    Please remember I have a lunch date later this week, so I am circular dating now. Its just hard because I sort of got to the point where I depended on him to help me around the house and depended on him emotionally.

    I miss being able to text him with things etc. I miss just knowing he was always there to text etc. I feel a definite void.

    Again, if he cant be there for me, then he cant, and I dont want to make him.

    I’m just sort of FEELING these FEELINGS.

  33.  #33Erika Awakening on July 10, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    I’m gonna try to post again, maybe comments were not working earlier…

    I really like this post too. It feels authentic and real.

    I feel big shift now not focusing on men or dating. I think listening to Rori’s two Love Scripts video programs was very helpful. Then I vented in feeling messages a bunch of things I needed to say. Then a little time passed and something shifted. I feel happier having my energy back on me.

  34.  #34prplpsn28 on July 10, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    Just subscribing to this new thread.

  35.  #35Elsie on July 10, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    Hey Prplpsn – how are you?

  36.  #36prplpsn28 on July 10, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    Hi Elsie 🙂 I’m doing ok. Been reading all of the posts and taking it all in.

  37.  #37Vi on July 10, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    smokescreen! – this is how I’ve been feeling about my anger lately….

  38.  #38Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    Hi ladies

    Thank you for all of your marvelous feedback.

    When I think about it, it was his suggestion that I take tonight to think about what he said, and how great a suggestion that was. I agree with what some of you have said that there was no reason for him to kiss me like that, or even see me, unless he was still in this with me a little bit. That said, I could sense a hesitancy, he actually said to me “I’m afraid of getting hurt again.”

  39.  #39Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 9:45 pm

    Liquid Light,

    It is great I guess and it does make sense, and I can feel within myself that there is some truth to it. I could certainly make changes that would allow him to feel more comfortable. And I think you’re right, changing my behavior could change everything.

    Now that you girls have mentioned it, I do feel grateful that he can communicate so clearly.

    Thank you for your thoughtful post 🙂

    My trip was just so wonderful, I fell in love with Ireland and I can’t wait to go back. Yet, I’m glad to be home, it was good to hug my family 🙂


  40.  #40Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    Feminine Woman

    “suggests to me that there is just a little something he needs to “tip him over the edge” without which he might not be able to move forward.”

    Yes, I feel that too. It is what I spent half the night thinking about. What is the change I could make right now that would have the biggest effect?

    Thank you

  41.  #41Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    Shar Lean Way Back,

    You are right of course, in that it needs not to be a biggie when he takes his alone time. I circular dated extensively the times before when the lines were a little blurred with him, and so I think I need to experiment this time with doing it a different way, in a way that feels really good to me.

    Thank you x

  42.  #42Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    Wild Geranium & Elsie,

    Yes, I got that “that’s it” meant he had nothing more to say. I deliberately said very little, to give him the maximum chance to say everything that was on his heart, and I feel glad I did that. I realize “that’s it” can sound a little blunt to us women, but I truly agree with both of you, I feel it was just his way of indicating that he had stopped talking.

    He did actually specifically say he felt a bit resigned, and afraid of getting hurt. I could sense the hesitancy in him. Yet I just noticed this, I wasn’t necessarily triggered by it.

  43.  #43Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 9:57 pm

    Wild Geranium #21

    Your post was very insightful, thank you very much 🙂

    “He may be the type who takes a long time to feel safe and comfortable. He even said that it makes it worse when you try to fix it– fixing is masculine energy.” Yes, yes. He even said as much.

    This would all be about me allowing him to feel safe.

    The kiss took me a little by surprise, which was why it was so lovely.

  44.  #44Veronica on July 10, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    Indigo – 8- What he said sounds really positive and do-able. I can understand the pressure he might feel about having planned to do something and then also asking you to leave. For me personally, I know if the person I’m with gets that I have to do those other things that I planned and lets me do those things, then I feel more open and relaxed when I’m spending time with them.

    I would feel that this is so do-able if this was said to me. I would see a man who wants to be doing all the masculine things and knows how HE does that best. I would see a man who also has a lot of care for this relationship. It’s quite beautiful, I love it when men are expressive with their caring like that. And the gentleness that I feel called from me by his vulnerability. (just my opinion – I feel like clapping for you Indigo because this seems so positive)

  45.  #45Veronica on July 10, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    I had a dream about BM last night. It was beautiful – we were in this huge public garden type area and were enjoying exploring the more private quiet spaces. It was very sensual – my dreams can be quite vivid where I feel like my senses are involved – and I could feel the cold water and the texture of the pond bed as we walked barefoot in a shallow pond. It was such a good experience and it felt so good to be with him again. I miss him. And that’s okay. I wanted so much to dream about him and have his presence near me – thank you body for making that happen. I just really needed that yesterday.

  46.  #46Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 11:42 pm


    Thank you very much for the support, and I also couldn’t help seeing the similarity between our two men.

    I feel good that I gave him the full opportunity to talk and that I took time to think about what he’d said. I agree that we can grow together, the “how” of this is unfolding slowly, little by little I get another little piece of the puzzle.

    Thank you for your supportive words, I agree he would not have kissed me had he not wanted to, nor would he have asked to see me and talk to me, because by the time I got back from my trip I was truly ok with not seeing him. I was ready to let him go at that point.

    I realize how great it is in a way that he’s able to articulate and communicate these things, how lucky that is for me.


    Also Elsie, regarding GS, I think it’s totally normal to feel like things are not what they are, like you aren’t *really* on pause, because he still cares for you.

    But you are going about this in exactly the right way; the journey to your innermost being and happiness is where you need to be right now, whatever this looks like in terms of CDing or taking care of yourself.


  47.  #47Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 11:45 pm

    Heart 29

    Thank you so much 🙂 I knew that I wanted to share this with all of you, and I hope someone can get something out of it.

    Yes, an exclusive, committed relationship is what he was talking about – I had to clarify that with him, because it wasn’t immediately clear.

    But he is afraid… afraid of being hurt, afraid of things not working out. This would need to be approached carefully and thoughtfully, if things do go ahead.


  48.  #48Indigo on July 10, 2013 at 11:52 pm

    Wow Veronica

    Thanks for your gentle and thoughtful response.

    I too felt an overwhelming sense of positivity from his words, even as I saw the fear in him. Taking the time and care to articulate all of that, you are right, was not lost on me. A part of me was blown away, and I felt in his own way, how he actually honours our connection, even though it is not always expressed as I need. His quiet and sure masculine energy is definitely what attracts me most. Thank you for affirming this for me.

    I agree these things are doable, especially now that I feel so filled up from my trip. I want what he has asked for so much for myself, and I want to do it in a quiet, no-fuss kind of way. Will you guys help? I couldn’t wait to share this with all of you, since I know some of you will have great suggestions on how to give a guy his boundaries like this in a lovely, no-drama kind of way.

    Thank you Veronica xxx

  49.  #49Millie on July 11, 2013 at 12:41 am

    Sigh….I feel like I’m never going to “get” relationships. Am I ever going to “get it?”….

  50.  #50Sophie on July 11, 2013 at 1:27 am

    Wow this is an amazing post – I love what Rori says about creating an environment that lets love grow (with everyone) and letting people love in there own way – the whole article feels really relaxing – one big sigh of relief – i love how she talks about going round plugging up the leaks as well and catching whatever love you can – i can relate to that how exhausting like some computer games and the levels just keep getting harder and harder with more and more leaks and you can never actually do it

    i’ve noticed myself become all advicy recently – yuk – i don’t like it – i’m going to start bringing some awareness to that and zipping my mouth and leaning in to intimacy that isn’t necessarily there and that feels yuk too – here’s a long yawn and stretch and arch of the back and lean right back

    Indigo – I love the space that you have created for you both – it feels very peaceful to have heard him and to have then been able to leave it at that whilst you think and process

  51.  #51Sophie on July 11, 2013 at 1:29 am

    mmmm my picture is there as it connects to other sites – is there anyway to just change your picture on this site? I may feel worried about anyone I knew reading the things I say…

  52.  #52Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 2:59 am


    Thank you. That was how I felt. I hope I can live up to your compliment.

  53.  #53Zia on July 11, 2013 at 3:01 am

    Thank you for this post, Rori 🙂

  54.  #54Dominique on July 11, 2013 at 4:59 am

    Indigo – 38 – “I’m afraid of getting hurt again.”

    This might be something to look at within yourself.


  55.  #55Dominique on July 11, 2013 at 5:04 am

    Indigo – 48 – And here is where loving and appreciating not only him and what he’s offering you but also each and every moment which feels good with him comes in. In this you can learn to feel that whatever is there feels amazing and feels enough.


  56.  #56Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 5:51 am

    Where is the Stop Chasing him article?

  57.  #57Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 6:23 am

    1. 348: Rori Raye says:
    mayflower -Welcome – and the only thing for you to work on is yourself. You say here that you basically have no self-discipline, no impulse-control, do not have control over yourself in any way. You are behaving as a addicted “junkie” would behave by lunging for this man. Also, you have been habituated by your past to want what you can’t have and disregard what loves you. This is what CDing is for – to give you real-life experiences with real men to work through your “stuff” – to learn to appreciate and open up to ONLY men who want you, and to hang back and lean back at ALL times, and NEVER try to “make something happen” that isn’t already happening. We’ll help you. Please start with the ebook and work through ALL the basic Tools 24/7 – then move on to the other programs. Love, Rori


  58.  #58April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 6:32 am


    From your above post:

    “..to learn to appreciate and open up to ONLY men who want you,…”

    not to all men? I feel puzzled

  59.  #59Veronica on July 11, 2013 at 6:57 am

    Indigo – 48 – I find it quite beautiful – you have your need, and he fulfils that need in HIS best way, he doesn’t disregard your need. But I wonder if it didn’t happen that way with men who love us, if we may stop looking or noticing him, how our attention to him revealing and giving might be diminished. Maybe that insistence on HIM changes later on, I don’t know.

    It was very touching to hear a man’s perspective otherwise all this inner work starts to feel ‘abstract’. Thank you so much for sharing.

    I don’t have a lot of experience. I feel nervous about helping or suggesting. I hope the every experienced sirens here will help you.

    I am reminded by what you’re saying of when BM asked to have his own time. I was struggling with that because initially it felt like less time together. I had to trust. What happened though was that after quite a while I noticed he came back with more of himself, as though he was a free agent who could now choose to be with me more often. I wish I had a better attitude about it then. Maybe I can now think of it as rejuvenation or regeneration time, for both partners.

    This moment you have/had feels so precious.

  60.  #60Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 7:22 am

    April Rose it is in the context of chasing a man. The way I understood it is “focus” on opening to these men and take the focus off chasing the unavailable man.

  61.  #61seahorse on July 11, 2013 at 8:10 am

    This post has been so very helpful in ways I feel from the moment I read it…………… to my dreams last night……………….. to who knows where it will go in the future. Thank you Rori.

    I dreamt of my Grammy laast night and woke up with a very light heart. And a smile. I love you grammy, thank you for visiting.

  62.  #62Linda on July 11, 2013 at 8:23 am

    I can hardly believe what I read in the post!!! This post could not have come at a more perfect time for me !!

    I have been feeling so…. small and ill-equipped.
    I have been feeling so… off balance
    I have been feeling so… anxiety filled
    I have been feeling so… homesick

    My perception of the current relationship I am in feels like it driven by expectation and is full of “doing”…
    I am constantanly falling short and now I dont even want to try. It feels Really BAD.

    I started out “being” and it got sidelined by working and doing, which has mostly been fueld by energy from FavoriteCD. No wonder I am feeling so off.

    My grandson is such a refreshing joy and gift in my life. I love that little guy with all my heart…and he has not had to “do” one single thing for him to have such a place in my heart. He does not behave in any certain way he just “is”. He is a love sponge.

    I get it!….

  63.  #63Malene on July 11, 2013 at 8:29 am

    This newsletter came at the right time. I recently found out I was in a Friends with Benefits relationship with the man I was seeing for six years. I did not listen to what he was trying to tell me cause when we first met he asked if I wanted to be “close friends.” Few months ago I asked where we were headed and he said we were FWB and he loved me as a best friend. He said he was not ready. He did not want to do the relationship thing dates and all.

    Another thing he is married but tells me he has not divorced cause it cost money he does not have. I know he has not lived with his wife since I met him. But he did have a lady friend when I met him which he tells me that nothing is going on with her. Now I don’t believe him cause I seen him with her twice and he tells me he is still not doing anything with her. I ask why he is with her then and he tells me its just for a liquor run. He has his own car.

    I gave him money, bought stuff he needed, drove to him, asked him to concerts which he went to one, etc. All wrong things to do after finding rori. I stopped doing that since. I dont text him or call him but my mistake is when he text and wants to see me I am there. Another mistake.

    I told him a few days ago that I do not want to see him anymore cause we were not going anywhere and I clearly see his choice of who he wants to spend time with. I have not heard from him since.

    He texts and tells me he loves me but I know he doesn’t love me as someone he would want to be with in the future. I don’t think he will step up cause we were just FWB and he does still see and hang out with the other lady. I just wonder why he didn’t love me but I know from RORI’s newsletter that I did everything wrong and he will always see me as a friend cause I put myself there. Feeling lonely now and feel that anything was better than this. At least I had someone even though it was nothing!

  64.  #64Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 8:32 am

    @Indigo – it sounds like you are in an awesome place with yourself and him.

    I feel tethered today.

    I feel tethered to him, and do not want to be. I went over to give him something to say thank you for ALL the hard work he did for me a few days ago. And ended up staying and talking for an hour and a half. Ugh. My energy shifted and I feel not free. I feel that he will never be able to crave me or miss me if I am always there. But I am afraid that if I let go of this connection that he will just drift off……and then never come back. I am afraid that what I want will not show up for me. Not afraid….concerned. I feel that I still give to him everything he needs, but the piercing words come back to haunt me that he gets everything he needs from me at work, and does not crave me at night. Every time I think of those words. Ouch.

    I feel tethered.

  65.  #65ArabianLove on July 11, 2013 at 9:11 am

    Hi ladies,

    I’ve been off this site for quite a while since I have moved on from a toxic booty call man to an amazing guy I have been dating for 3 months now. 🙂

    He is great and I have gotten more from him in the 3 months we have been together than with the other guy whom i was with for 2 years.

    He is affectionate, takes care of me, even cooks for me every weekend. We spend all weekend together most of the time and as well we will go on a date one day during the week or so.

    However, I would like some advice …
    Last weekend we spent 4 days together and now he has withdrawn! I haven’t heard from him in 3 going on 4 days today. He has been contacting me daily before this. Although after our weekends he can sometimes seem to avoid contacting me for a couple days or so and we have gone through boughts of I call and he doesn’t answer and then he calls repeatedly and I dont answer which is very very frustrating. This is the only issue that I have at this point in time. I have panicked before and made it known that I was panicking and he made it up to me with an amazing night together and calling everyday and answering my text message (even though he hates texting). but I am so insecure that I need that constant contact to know he is around for me. Even though, I know he is I feel afraid that I will lose him.This stems from my past relationship for sure.

    I am guessing that he is feeling this energy. I know that I should give him his time and space alone but at the same time I want to be with him and receive his affection.

    Anyways, I did message him this morning that I would call him later tonight (since he did not reply to my message last night). I think I need to tell him that his not replying makes me feel ignored and worried and insecure.
    See I mostly afraid that if I let him get away with “bad” behaviour he will try to get away with more and more like the other guy but at the same time I dont want to reprimand him like a child!

    I have no idea what to do to be able to make myself feel better.

    Please share your advice with me,
    Much love Arabian

  66.  #66Mercedes on July 11, 2013 at 9:12 am

    I’ve been super busy and have a lot of catching up to do but I read the post and the comments on this thread.

    Elsie: If you act like just a friend you will always be just a friend. I know you don’t know if “no contact” is best for you or not but I can pretty much assure you, all contact is considered “friend zone contact” in his eyes right now and as long as you fulfill that friend stuff, you will remain a friend.

    And please…no more friendly gifts to say thank you. Lots of people do lots of things for me consistently and a simple “thank you” is generally enough. Most people don’t expect “things” for helping out. The gift feels like an excuse to talk to him (unless you give gifts to everyone who helps you). Even if that isn’t what you meant by it, it’s probably what he believes you meant by it.

    And if he does “drift off” if you stop rowing then I would ask you to ponder the question “Do I really want a man who will drift off just because I won’t play the ‘we’re just friends’ game with him? Or do I want a man who will chase me down because he misses me so much he can’t take being apart?”

    Please rethink no contact and consider applying it. You are being the sweetest friend ever to him and I think you are pushing your way toward cementing yourself in that role forever…

    Much Love,

  67.  #67BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 9:19 am

    “Or do I want a man who will chase me down because he misses me so much he can’t take being apart?”
    Yes please, I’ll take two, thank you very much 🙂

  68.  #68Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 9:19 am

    @Mercedes. I think you are 100% right. Now that I read your post, I think you are sooooo right.

    I do not want a man who will drift off and not crave me and love me and want to be with me because I’m not there for him. Frankly, I’m fussy, because he is taking this time AGAIN for himself, and once again, MY NEEDS are not being met. I’m really exhausted of meeting everyone elses needs and not my own.

    The problem is I’m not sure what my needs 100% are. I do know this – I dont want to be just his friend. At least not now. If things dont work out between us in the very very end (year/years from now) I could see myself being friends with him again maybe but not now…..although being friends with him seems so comfortable.

    I have to have contact because of work related issues. (And its SOOO HARD because he HELPS me with things and without a man, I do need help with things, I’m sorry but I do – around the house etc.) I am going to have to figure those things out.

    Anyway – the point is that I am going to pull away a bit and see how that feels. Both today, tomorrow and next week – (I guess we arent talking on weekends anymore….sigh.) So I will pull away and see how that feels. I dont think because of work I can do absolutely no contact, but I can come close.

    Thanks Mercedes. Thank you……


  69.  #69Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 9:21 am

    @Arabian – Please read “Attached”. You seem to have anxious attachment style (I have it too…..) Let this man be. Its only been 4 days…….many books talk about how men pull back after very intimate times together. They need a change to regroup after being so close…..its in TONS of books.

  70.  #70Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 9:24 am

    @Mercedes – you will be happy to know (I feel like you are my dating guru lol…..) that CollegeCD texted me a few days ago and ended it on a note where he was just talking about my computer, and I didnt feel a need to add anything, so I didnt answer. I thought the convo was over. So then a day went by and he texted me “Did you get my last text?” LOL. Iwas like, yes, thank you again for all your help. Then he asked me out for lunch on Thursday, but I said Friday would work better for me. So, he actually is trying to MOVE his whole schedule around (He was originally going to take Friday off work) to spend lunch with me tomorrow. We’ll see if it happens. 🙂 But I think it will.

    Anyway – the point is I’m leaning way back. I like the feeling of being chased. Frankly, now that I think of it – GS could never chase me if I keep standing in front of him. LOL.

  71.  #71Mercedes on July 11, 2013 at 9:26 am

    Elsie: Every time you think about how hard it will be to not be his friend or not have him for a friend to you, think about the word “just”. Add it to the word “friend”:

    I’m just a friend.
    We’re just friends.

    That’s not what you want and because it’s not what you want, you are accepting crumbs (or less) from him and you’re still giving him all that friendship.

    You might “need” a man around the house (but I’m guessing not as much as you think. I lived alone for years and managed) but you don’t necessarily need GS around the house. You will figure it out. GS is an excuse. Needs around the house are an excuse. These excuses are not bringing him closer to you…not at all.

    Ok…I have to go. Elsie…don’t be just friends with him. Not even for a while. You want more than that. Go out there and get it. But the only way you’ll do that is if you stop being just friends with the man you are currently in love with.

    Much Love,

  72.  #72Denise on July 11, 2013 at 9:30 am

    How do I post to ask for advice? Please.

  73.  #73Rori Raye on July 11, 2013 at 9:30 am

    Malene – Welcome – and please see this as a tremendous learning experience! Now – this will NEVER happen to you again! You know your worth, and what you want…Love, Rori

  74.  #74Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 9:30 am

    @Mercedes – You are right. 100% right. I thought yesterday about everything, and I thought about how much it pained me that at the end of the day he said he does not crave seeing me at night or on the weekend. Seriously – ouch.

    Yes, I am JUST a friend right now, even though he loves me and even though he is attracted to me, he is JUST my friend, and I am JUST his friend.

    GS is an excuse (and also frankly, it was always so convenient to call him to help because he always helped me…..) But you are right – they are not bringing him closer to me. At all. IN FACT, he gets to feel like a hero, and like he is taking care of me, which just fulfills HIM, not me.

    JUST. Its such a little word. But it changes everything.

    Thank you Mercedes. Seriously – thank you.

  75.  #75Rori Raye on July 11, 2013 at 9:31 am

    Denise – Ask on the most recent comment – just the way you did here. Welcome! Love, Rori

  76.  #76Denise on July 11, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Thanks Rori! Ok guys. I have been married for almost 5 years. My husband and I have 4 kids, 2 which are his. He recently moved out in March. I am still in the house hoping we can reconcile. He moved because of me. I was horrble to him. I was holding on to anger from when we first met. He says he loves me and the kids but he doesn’t believe I will change. We have not yet filed for divorce. I want him to come home so we can be a family. I started reading all your books and blogs and feel I’m figuring alot of things out I didn’t understand. But I am at a point where I am ready to tell him either come home or file for divorce. Please help!

  77.  #77Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 9:38 am

    “You are being the sweetest friend ever to him and I think you are pushing your way toward cementing yourself in that role forever.”

    Elsie, I know you always listen to Mercedes, so please….listen to Mercedes here! lol

    I don’t think its realistic to do complete no contact with GS since you work together. But I do think that you can *not initiate* any contact and when you do come into contact with him keep it all business (friendly but business).

    As long as you keep doing what you’re doing there will be absolutely no motivation for him to move forward romantically. He can’t miss you.

    Go back and review what Rori lists as the ways that we lean forward– its in actions and its in our own thinking.

    You want to make GS wonder what is going on with you. What you are doing right now is letting him know you are O.K. with the way things are. He will never wonder or want to move forward if he can’t miss you and can’t wonder what is going on with you. And, you don’t want to settle for anything less from him than him stepping up to give you what you want–which is dates and contact and a romantic relationship *outside of work*.


  78.  #78BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 9:44 am

    What I wouldn’t give for a time machine to go back in time and give myself the advice Elsie is getting from Mercedes 2 years ago…
    I doubt seriously that C and I would be together, and, I probably wouldn’t be picking the bloody shards of my heart out of the C shredder 2 years later.

    Live and learn 🙂

  79.  #79Liquid Light on July 11, 2013 at 9:44 am

    I saw a friend last night whom I hadn’t seen in over a year. She had been in a really bad, unhealthy relationship with a toxic man. That finally ended last year, thank goodness! Last night, she told me she and her new boyfriend just bought a house together and are planning to get married. This all happened within 8 months! It is so inspiring!!! When its right and feels good, it can happen so quickly!!!! Woohooo!!! There is still hope for me! YES!!!

  80.  #80BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 9:45 am

    I have to be grateful for the experience, though, it has definitely made me a stronger woman, and brought me out of myself when I was totally depleted and broken down.

  81.  #81Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 9:51 am


    “But he is afraid… afraid of being hurt, afraid of things not working out. This would need to be approached carefully and thoughtfully, if things do go ahead.”

    Indigo, think about this…why is he afraid of being hurt? why is he afraid of things not working out? Have you ever felt like that? and, why did you feel like that?

    I ask myself those questions and the answer often is because I am becoming attached to someone, I’m falling in love, I’m really starting to care deeply….Its not *bad* its just scary….intimacy is scary…. but sometimes we need the fear to make us realize that we are going somewhere good. The trick is to breathe and relax into the fear and discomfort and not do what we always do which is to either grasp for *more* or run away…. That is being in the moment and being open to just this moment. I love the waterwheel tool for the feeling of scary/fear. Breathe and imagine all the love pouring toward you.


  82.  #82Heart on July 11, 2013 at 10:03 am

    Indigo – I feel very hopeful for you…I feel a littl jealous too. I’m glad things are working out.
    Maybe you could give D that MenAreFromMars book….let him know your happy to give him his space but that some reassurance that he’s coming back is all you really need.

  83.  #83Veronica on July 11, 2013 at 10:07 am

    I do nothing. I tend a place in myself for love to grow. Who am I living for? Thank you Rori!

  84.  #84Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 10:15 am

    Veronica & Elsie,

    I’m not so sure. Things are very tentative and we are still on very shaky ground. I do notice a difference in how I feel though, which is about one THOUSAND times better than in the past. All the yuck stuff seems to be gone.

    Veronica, I loved what you said in #59. Men are so much more complex than we perhaps think, or at least, there is so much more to them. I feel very glad for you that you had this realization, and I hope you tuck it away in your heart and feel good about it. We don’t know these things until we know them.

  85.  #85Linda on July 11, 2013 at 10:17 am

    @11 FW those are strong words. (hugs)

  86.  #86Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 10:19 am

    Beautiful post, Wild Geranium.

    I think he is afraid of being hurt because… he is afraid. He is afraid of things falling apart and things ending, when he has opened up to me again. Or at least, this is just what I am surmising.

    He is also afraid of the pain he feels when he is angry, tense or uncomfortable. This he told me. He does not want to feel that way, and needs me to let him withdraw to deal with any unpleasant feelings and get rid of them in his own way. He fears feeling bad, and he fears fights, which I am absolutely determined to avoid.

    I love what you had to say about intimacy. I can feel I am ready for this journey. I can only hope my being ready means he comes along, little by little.

  87.  #87Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 10:22 am


    Thanks for having faith in me 😉

    Don’t feel jealous! I have no idea what I am doing!

    I am feeling my way through this, and it feels good, and I cannot explain that at all, because I am not thinking at all, because all my thoughts turn to dust.

    I feel incredibly good all throughout my body, and my heart seems to be filled with this blooming sensation that soars. The love in fact came pouring out in tears today, but they were good tears. And my heart seems to have faith in him, and I have no idea why.

  88.  #88Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 10:24 am

    Also, Heart yes

    “let him know your happy to give him his space but that some reassurance that he’s coming back is all you really need.”

    I am experimenting with this.

  89.  #89Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 10:25 am

    Denise 76

    I know Rori has some great posts dealing with exactly this situation. There have been several sirens over the years it seems who have dealt with this.

    May I ask, why do you want him to come back? Do you love him? What do you love about him?

  90.  #90Heart on July 11, 2013 at 10:25 am

    Indigo – All of his fears seem pretty normal. It’s good that he’s afraid….it means he’s risking something..

  91.  #91Denise on July 11, 2013 at 10:30 am

    Indigo 89

    Thank you for reading my post. Yes I do love him very much. He’s a good guy, he’s a good dad, and out of all my relations he is the only man I ever really loved. He’s smart and he works hard.

    I was trying to find a post to relate to my situation but I guess I wasn’t looking in the right place. Thanks again.

  92.  #92Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Hi Denise

    If you go to Post Directory for Rori’s Blog on the right hand side, nearer the top of the page, if you look under category “Break-up and Divorce” you will find many articles relevant to your situation, I think.

    From where I stand there are many ways you could turn this around, perhaps by starting to appreciate the things that you love about him? Also, I think it’s a given that you would need to look deep within to find out where the angry behavior he is talking about is coming from. This will need to change to something much softer and less blaming, but we sirens here talk about our own healing all the time, so we’ll help you! 🙂

  93.  #93Denise on July 11, 2013 at 10:53 am

    Hi Indigo,

    I will research that as soon as I get home. As far as my anger, I have no clue where it’s stems from. But since he moved I try to appreciate the reasons why I love him and show him that as well. But as soon as we argue he throws things back at me and that hurts. Then I get denfensive and then my nasy voice takes over. I feel he’s not trying to give me a chance to change. Since reading Rori’s books, I’ve changed the way I speak and act towards him. The next step is to tell him I am drawing the line with this separation. Although, I do tend to forget the blaming or attacking him step but I am working on it. 😉

  94.  #94Dominique on July 11, 2013 at 11:00 am

    Malene – 63 – I responded to you on the other thread you originally posted on. Here it is –

    Malene – I’m sorry you are feeling so bad. Yet he’s been upfront with you all along. He has said he loves you as a FWB, and this is all you are right now and maybe for always. You are not exclusive, so your choices are – is this enough? if so then what you have between you will likely be status quo, and you will need to accept this, no expectations of anything else.

    If it isn’t enough which from what you say here it isn’t, then you need to move on. If nothing else, start circular dating. You can keep him in your rotations if you wish, yet if it’s too painful, then cut all ties with him altogether.

    Sending love.


  95.  #95Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 11:03 am

    @WildGeranium: THANK YOU. I am taking your advice too. I will NOT initiate ANY contact, and when I do, it will be all business.

    I think he ordered me a gift for my working out (something I really want) because I got a clue from something he said. If it comes in next week or whenever, I will accept it and say thank you but WILL NOT GUSH etc.

    You said “As long as you keep doing what you’re doing there will be absolutely no motivation for him to move forward romantically. He can’t miss you.” BINGO. yes. yes yes.

    You also said, “You want to make GS wonder what is going on with you. What you are doing right now is letting him know you are O.K. with the way things are. He will never wonder or want to move forward if he can’t miss you and can’t wonder what is going on with you. And, you don’t want to settle for anything less from him than him stepping up to give you what you want–which is dates and contact and a romantic relationship *outside of work*.” YES YES YES. 100% YES.


  96.  #96Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 11:04 am

    Dominique 54

    Thank you for your response to me. I am definitely afraid of getting hurt again.

  97.  #97Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 11:05 am

    @BeLoved. Dont we all wish we had a time machine? I would go back 10 years and do things differently. At least the last 5 for sure. (hugs)

    @Denise – I’m not sure how long the problems have been going on – but allow him this space. Our tendency as women is to want a “quick fix” – dont fall prey to that. This is a marriage and if you think it can be fixed, and he is going to work towards it, then give him time and then give him more while you work on yourself. We are all here for you 🙂

  98.  #98Linda on July 11, 2013 at 11:06 am

    @ 65 ArabianLove…

    I have this EXACT experience…

    Actually Dominique has written some articles on her website that helped me with my internal attitudes, thoughts, expectations etc. anxiety…. the things you posted about. SPecifically the article on “your non-communicative man”…. Light Bulb MOMENT for me! Also dropping expectations brought lots of good surprises my way. Receiving what a man decides and chooses to bring me feels soo much better than telling him what I expect or want . One attitude breeds freedom the other way reinforces our insecurities and blocks healing.

    CLick on her name from a post on here and it will beam you to her site!

  99.  #99Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 11:06 am

    Dominique 55

    I have really, really started to integrate this concept into my life, and I have you to thank for it.

    It feels amazing.

    What is wonderful feels even more wonderful, and the not-so-great stuff fades more and more. Gradually, but it does fade.

    Truly do love your work. xx

  100.  #100Malene on July 11, 2013 at 11:10 am

    Thank you Rori for your comment. But what if he contacts me again? He always says he loves me and misses me. When I ask about the other lady I seen him with, he says its nothing. He doesn’t do anything with her. I want to believe him cause he tells me that is his cousin or niece can’t recall. At one time his daughter told me they were together and she was crazy calling him all the time. When I started seeing him his phone would ring and he wouldn’t answer. I would ask is that her and he would not answer my question. He avoids all questions regarding her. Should that tell me something? He says he doesn’t answer the questions cause he is not with her.

    I also recently found out that he was texting another lady, not sure if its the same one. He sent me a message and attached the song “Be your everything” He was sending good morning/night messages to ten other numbers which I found out about and asked him. He says they are just his women friends. He then sent me and someone else a message and attached the song Be your everything to it. I questioned him and he told me it was just a friend and not a big deal. It was just a song. It is so frustrating and I feel so angry but he just blows things off as nothing but to me its something.

    I guess I consented to the FWB relationship when I went back to see him. Now I feel angry and upset. I told him I was not happy and was not excited to hear from him anymore cause it is always a want to have sex text. Not want to spend time with you kind of text. Yet I miss him and I feel lonely after I told him I did not want to be in the FWB anymore.

    I read your newsletter and know what to do but it is so hard to do. I know that if a guy is seeing other women than walk away cause he is not suppose too. it means you are not his choice. If you want to be more than friends say NO to friends with benefits and do this, no contact, no being nice, ect. So do I just ignore his text and not text him back cause that just feels rude to me. Please help me. Know what my relationship is but too difficult to accept and walk away even though I did. I want to go back to what we had Nothing but it feels like it was something now that he is not texting me.

    I cry but then tell myself “why are you crying, you didn’t have anything with him. No movie nights, date nights, dinner nights, weekends, family nights, etc. Nothing!” But it still hurts. I cant tell him he hurt me cause that would make it about him and I don’t want him to have the power! I WANT TO GET MY POWER BACK and set my boundaries that I am no longer a booty call for him! If he wants me then he has to step up but I feel like he wont! I think that is what hurts me and makes me cry! Sorry I am feel like venting but need some feedback on this situation. If anyone has gone through this type of relationship, please advise. I need it! thanks.

  101.  #101Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 11:10 am


    This way of talking doesn’t come overnight.

    You may well find though that when you are able to touch your anger and bring it up for healing, and working on and loving yourself, that stopping the blaming/attacking talk comes almost naturally.

    Love to you. Like Elsie said, we are all here for you.

  102.  #102Malene on July 11, 2013 at 11:27 am

    Dominique….thank you. I know he has been upfront but I guess I was like Rori in the beginning thinking that I can change his feelings about me. But its been so many years that I feel now I have to move on.

    Keep him in my rotation? Is that saying date him along with other men? I don’t think that will work cause this is his words “You want a relationship? Relationship like dates, going out? don’t want that right now. Friends with benefits is what we is with no attachments, if you understand what I mean!”

    After seeing him with her just made me realize I will not be the one he wants to spend time with. I told him he can be her since he is always with her and he has made his choice and perference known. But I don’t know if like he says, nothing going on. He says I am always assuming and he continues explaining but I don’t believe him. Confusing!

    I get that he loves me as a best friend and nothing more but wish for more. I know rori says once you are put in the friend category you will always be there!

  103.  #103Malene on July 11, 2013 at 11:33 am

    Dominique….another thing, if i should decide to continue being FWBs and accepting it, what would i get out of it. Just sex and that is not enough for me. I want someone to love me, accept my family, do things with me, be there for me, everything about me not just sexually want me.

    I feel like he is the last man on earth and I can’t get anyone else. I know that is not the way to think but that is how I feel. Would that be enough to just go along with being FWBs? I don’t know.

  104.  #104Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 11:47 am

    @Malene – it is very clear from your messages you do NOT want FWB. Brace yourself for what I’m going to say to you. That is what you are right now. Just like I have to deal with the fact that I have been placed in the friend zone with GS, you have been placed in the FWB zone. You can NOT do anything to get out of this zone by being nice, friendly, accomodating, etc.

    My opinion is that you should completely go no contact with this guy. He is not there for you, accepting your family, doing things with you, being there for you. He is sending you the same sappy love song as a bunch of other girls. He isnt even original. 🙂

    He is NOT the last man on Earth. And if he was, who cares? Would you want this? It sounds like no.

    Please listen to what all these girls on here are saying and start reading Rori Raye and Christian Carter – PLEASE. Please. PLEASE. And do no contact immediately. You can give him the “girlfriend speech” that Rori has – do you know it?

  105.  #105Liquid Light on July 11, 2013 at 11:49 am

    Doesn’t my post #79 give you all hope and encouragement? If my friend can do it (go from Mr. Toxic to Mr. Wonderful in under a year) then we can too! We all need some encouragement in our journey…I know I could really use some right now, please!!!! 🙂

  106.  #106Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Arabian – this is the 3 month mark. He is evaluating you, the relationship and wondering if he wants to continue is what I would assume. The days together can fill up guys love tank for a while. I also imagine he might be wondering how you will react when difficult times come up in the future. Consider that he would want to know that you can stand on your own two feet should something happen to him. This is one test I consider men use at times to see if our emotions spiral out of control.

  107.  #107BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    Ohhhh I am so questioning myself right now.
    I chose to sit with someone at lunch who is friendly to me, I had *no* idea what C was doing, he’s left all week, and I didn’t want to sit there feeling lonely, I wanted to hang with someone who actually talks to me.
    But C stayed for lunch, when he sat down (gawd this feel soooo high school…arrested development much? lol) I couldn’t even look at him. I felt so much fear grip me. I didn’t think it felt very good to him either, someone asked him if he was ok.
    It felt really GOOD to talk to D, have a conversation about something interesting to me,
    I felt frozen, like, I couldn’t just be casual with C so I just sank into what I was feeling and did the best I could.
    Went into the bathroom after for another meltdown and a few rounds of EFT on “I CARE…I CARE…I CARE…! I REALLY REALLY CARE! AND I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO”.

    I have to wonder if this is really necessary? IDK WTF we are doing…and is there a way out of this that isn’t going to keep ripping my heart to pieces?
    I don’t think I could even talk to him without going infantile and crying and blubbering like a baby and I don’t want to do that, it feels humiliating and Not Helpful, it’s like going to the person who keeps triggering me for comfort…

    I keep coming back to my mantra – God is the love in which I forgive –
    and I have to wonder – am I doing the right thing?
    I definitely don’t want to be this guy’s friend.
    If I get real honest about it, I don’t truthfully want anything more, I don’t trust him and he even treats his friends kind of bad – I’ve heard K, who is super close with him, “with friends like you, who needs enemies?”
    It’s just triggered this feeling of waaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnntttttttttttttinnnnnnnnnggggggg
    sink back into the body
    ok ok yes it’s ok i think.

    your thoughts?

  108.  #108BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    haha oh man and then moments of clarity of “it’s perfect, it’s perfect, it’s all ok.”
    I just want to get to a place where I can feel strong before talking to him again.

  109.  #109Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    BeLoved – you said….it’s like going to the person who keeps triggering me for comfort…and you said……I definitely don’t want to be this guy’s friend.

    I *so* get that. GS is like my best friend. But I cant go to him because what I’m upset about is….him. LOL

    If he triggers you and you dont want to be JUST friends…..then just stay away and do no contact. It will hurt at first, like an addiction, but then once you break it – it will get better. Does that help? (hugs)

  110.  #110Mercedes on July 11, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    Elsie: I think you should take the advice in #104 to heart and apply it completely. Especially these parts:

    “You can NOT do anything to get out of this zone by being nice, friendly, accomodating, etc.”

    “My opinion is that you should completely go no contact with this guy. He is not there for you”

    “He is NOT the last man on Earth. And if he was, who cares? Would you want this? It sounds like no.”

    “Please listen to what all these girls on here are saying”

    “PLEASE. Please. PLEASE. And do no contact immediately. You can give him the “girlfriend speech” that Rori has – do you know it?”

    Much Love,

  111.  #111Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Malene – I know from RORI’s newsletter that I did everything wrong and he will always see me as a friend cause I put myself there.

    As far as I am concerned you doing things wrong is not relevant here. He remained where he was so he was getting his need met. Many men will say “I love you” because they don’t want to lose the good deal they have.

    He will see you as a friend if he categorizes you as friend and you accept that and stay right there with him. If he contacts you again I would tell him I don’t have time for men friends right. I am looking for romance and a romantic partner. So if things have not changed with him I’d encourage him not to contact me because he might not get a response.

  112.  #112Denise on July 11, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    @ Elise

    Thank you and you are right.

    I understand what you are saying and I will take heed to it. Thank you all for your help.

  113.  #113Mercedes on July 11, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Beloved: You’re going to be okay. You have to start giving to yourself…I mean really, really giving to yourself. Give yourself the gift of your smile. Your humor. Your joy. YOU deserve to see yourself that way. You can be positive regardless of what any man is doing/saying/getting/not getting from you. You’ve got this girl! Take care of you. And by take care of you, I mean stop letting men into your heart/mind/day who don’t deserve to be there. Shine out and attract others who shine. 🙂 It can be done. Someone who’s doing parts of a relationship that make you feel like your heart is being ripped out has no business in your life. Remove the energy from him. He’s sooooo not worth it. But YOU are. Give that positive energy to you. I think you’ll enjoy it.

    Much Love,

  114.  #114Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Does anyone else here have experience with crying the good kind of tears?

    Tears that feel good?

  115.  #115April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    (((Liquid Light)))) ((((encouragement)))))

    I haven’t read the post yet about your friend, so I’ll read it now.

  116.  #116April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    “When its right and feels good, it can happen so quickly!!!!”


  117.  #117Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    @Mercedes – I know!!! I was 100% thinking of MYSELF when I wrote it!!! 🙂 I love that you picked up on that.

    I cant go no contact because we work near each other. But I am totally going to take the advice and NEVER EVER initiate contact, and then and only then try to keep it about work.

    I will have to think of a script if it comes up that he sees me pulling away as his “friend”. He HATES the idea of it. (of course…)

  118.  #118Mercedes on July 11, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Indigo: I’ve done it many, many, many times. 🙂 I think God gave me the gift of happy tears. lol

    Much Love,

  119.  #119Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    @Indigo – yes, but lately mine have been the “sad” kind. 🙁

  120.  #120BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Mercedes and Elsie please please please don’t stop please keep it coming I need this so much I really do
    I need sosososo much to somehow not make him out to be bad or wrong or something and no blame or hate or makewronging
    and this is what I want so so so so much it’s what I’ve been meditating on and praying for
    to be free of addictions and toxic habits and behaviors
    and I feel scared
    and good at the same time
    like this pain is what I avoided before but I honestly wasn’t strong enough to handle it and maybe I can now
    feet on the ground
    omg omg I’m doing it…
    I have been junkie my whole life
    since before I was born and even in the womb
    okay that’s a story, lol
    I can almost laugh now
    back to my mantra
    it’s my divine connection I’m so hungry for
    keep coming back to that
    I didn’t know if I could ever do this
    I love me I love me and I don’t want to have to hate to move on
    back to the mantra
    back to work
    thank you yes yes more please yes

  121.  #121Malene on July 11, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Elsie…thank you. I know what I am for some time now and will always be but hard to accept. I know that I have to do the no contact too but so hard. He texts like he cares using Babe, I love you, I miss you, want to c you, which means he wants sex but putting it into words actually is better than thinking it. He told me also that he did not want to raise anymore kids cause he just got done raising two of his. Guess that should tell me he doesn’t plan on being with me ever cause I have a 11 year old and was taking care of my grandson who is 9 years old.

    Too many comments from him that i think about now makes me feel stupid that i stayed with him hoping for more. Just didn’t listen like that Bachorlette girl rori was talking about. He does not come to my house and he always has an excuse. I know its cause he doesn’t want to be seen at my house and people will talk cause its a small community. He lives out where his home is the only one so no one knows when I am out there. He is usually alone when that happens. kids will be out somewhere. I tell him that I don’t like the secret meetings and he always says its not.

    So our FWB relationship has been going on for six years and no one knows that we are even that. Not family, kids, siblings, no one. that is why I am putting it on here cause I can’t talk to anybody about my situation and ask for advice. But thank you all for reading and giving me your opinion.

    One other thing, the girlfriend speech? what would that be and would that speech work for FWB relationships?

  122.  #122Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    @BeLoved – Yes. Its like an addiction. Keep Breathing, and you will live. 🙂

    I know this because I didnt talk to GS for 4 days and I almost felt … relief, if that is possible. And then I was RIGHT BACK IN. Its like a drug. It is.

    Just break the habit. Commit to not talking to him for one week. 100% not talking to him. Then see how you feel. Dont think past that. Just think one week. You can do that for one week. The first few days will be the hardest.

    You got this……you GOT this.

  123.  #123Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    Malene it is the “no girlfriend” speech.

  124.  #124April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 12:42 pm


    I love, love, love your answer to Beloved in 113

    And I will take some of it for myself, starting with
    “…Shine out and attract others who shine. …”

  125.  #125Dominique on July 11, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Indigo – 99 – This feels SO good to read. It warms my heart to see this working well in your life. And the fear of intimacy, it truly does fade over time. The more you can BE in trust – and this means mostly trust in yourself, that you will simply feel when something feels off, not right, as well as trust in your man – that if he’s up to no good, it will come out on its own if you haven’t already felt it, the more safe you will feeling relaxing into the feelings of going deeper into intimacy. It’s a process like all of this.

    As wonderful a relationship I have with K, it took me a very long time to not be afraid of intimacy, of being hurt, abandoned. So you’re so not alone.


  126.  #126Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    The TRUTH is – EVERY man knows that if he isn’t marrying you, he has NO VALID claim on you. He KNOWS he can’t expect LOYALTY (as in “exclusivity”) if he hasn’t committed to you. It’s plain, basic “man-speak” — whether he owns up to it or not.
    And the more we buy into this, the less respect, on a deep, subconscious level, he has for you. I would be willing to guess that he didn’t divorce his ex just because she cheated on him. There was more and uglier stuff he can’t even get to inside his brain and heart. If someone cheats on us — every single one of us blames ourselves for it. We’re enraged at them, but we think it’s because we weren’t “enough” (plenty around this for another discussion).


  127.  #127Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    And most important – dating other men will take your focus OFF of this man and put it where it belongs – on yourself!

    The only way to see if this man can switch from friendship to romance is to emotionally walk away. Tell him he’s right about the “friends” thing. Agree with him. Step away completely. That means no talking, no lunch, no dinner because you have to DATE OTHER MEN and you don’t have so much time in your life for a male friend.

    This is absolutely true. My guess is you’ll hear from him quickly, He’ll be chasing you down. He’ll be upset that you’re cutting him off. Just be calm and say that you re looking for romance and a real relationship, and being friends with him is making it hard for you to move on, and you’ll contact him and be able to be friends later, when you’re with a man who wants the kind of relationship you do. Do it with a smile, very casually, no crying, no begging and see what happens.

    After you’ve practiced with other men, using my Feeling Messages and the Leanback and Focusing on Yourself and Loving Yourself Tools, you’ll be ready to talk with him and see him. I wish you luck!

    Love, Rori Raye

  128.  #128BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    I know I can – I went 3 months without talking to him before.
    Now I feel strangely numb and mixed up and not sure of what I want, lol.
    Like, really maybe I can let go of not ever wanting anything more from him
    I dunno
    I’m mixing myself all up
    gonna just keep breathing and focusing and back to the mantra and
    get grounded and back in my body again
    I think I got high on all the stress chemicals and the fear.
    IDK if I’m being brilliant or screwing everything up
    back to the mantra.

  129.  #129Malene on July 11, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    Feminewoman…I like the way you put into words on what to say if he should contact me again. How I don’t have time for men friends and if he still looking for FWB then not to contact me cause there may not be a response. That is better than not responding if he should. At least I give him the heads up if he should not receive a response.

    Elsie…we ARE in the same situation cause we want more with the men we were seeing but realized we were just placed in the friend zone. So hard on the heart when that happens! BOOOHOOOO! But cannot change them so we (women) have to accept and go after what we want for us! so sorry that you have to see him everyday at work. I can work my way around where I don’t have to see this guy for years.

    I have to go back and find the “No girlfriend” speech before he contacts me again. He usually waits three days before contacting me saying stuff like still mad. why you ignoring me I didn’t do anything to you, love you, miss you. Same messages nothing different. think the 3 day contact is in a guy manual somewhere. LOL

  130.  #130Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    @BeLoved – Dont freak out. You dont have to make a decision about anything right this very second. Give yourself some time. Seriously – just start with a week. Give yourself one week. Until next Friday, see if you can not talk to him and sort through your own feelings. Make it the “Week of BeLoved.” 🙂

  131.  #131Dominique on July 11, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Malene – 103 – Then you’ve already answered your own questions. If FWB is not something you can handle, then you need to walk away. This is for YOU and no one else. You have no obligation to respond to his texts though if it makes you feel better, and I would suggest you do this – tell him that FWB which is what your relationship is just doesn’t feel good to you. No more contact would feel better to you. We can tweak this if you wish.


  132.  #132Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    The hardest thing for me to accept is that I cant DO anything, SAY anything, ACT in any way to make this different or better. I can only pull back and see what happens from there.

    As my friends and I always say….


    Truer words were never spoken.

  133.  #133Mercedes on July 11, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    April Rose: Thank you! You see, in my experience, when we shine out, dark people have to turn away because they are blinded. Dark/negative people only like negative people. If we just have a little bitty light, they’ll hang around and hang around and hang around trying their best to put out our little shining light.

    BUT…if we shine brightly, it’s very uncomfortable (blinding) for them so they tend to fall away. They go off in search of either other dark/negative people or other people with just a little shining light so they can try to put it out. They like vulnerable people who are trying so hard to shine out. They absolutely can’t stand positive/shining people.

    Brightly shining/positive people on the other hand…they LOVE other brightly shining/positive people. 🙂

    (Beloved…I addressed that to April Rose but it’s for you too…be selective about the people you allow into your life. Are they attracted to you because they want to shine with you or are they attracted to you because they want to extinguish your shine?)

    Much Love,

  134.  #134Liquid Light on July 11, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Thanks April Rose! I really appreciate the hugs and encouragement!!! Same back at ya!

    ((((((((April Rose))))))))

  135.  #135Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    And I totally get that and truly appreciate your being so honest and straightforward with me.
    And what I’m looking for is a real partnership, and so, though I feel great being with you, and may enjoy continuing to date you, I can’t be exclusively involved with any man who doesn’t want what I want.
    I’m not looking for a boyfriend, I’m looking to be married or in a lifelong partnership.
    I don’t feel ready to stop seeing you at this moment, I’m feeling very upset and shakey and don’t want this to end, and yet I see I need to keep my options open.
    What do you think?”
    He’ll either get angry and defensive – in which case just stand there and HEAR him without getting defensive yourself.
    You can say –
    “I don’t know what I’m going to do or how this is going to look, I only know I don’t want to be just a girlfriend. I feel such strong and loving feelings for you…I get and respect your need to stay free and non-committed, and yet that isn’t what I want right now. I feel confused, and all I want right now is to be able to talk with you, and for us to be honest with each other and see what happens.”


  136.  #136BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    I won’t see him again until Monday – our weekend starts in 2 hours.

    Elsie – can you see now how the stuff I said last weekend was projection and totally my view on my own situation?
    In a way I’m sorry it came out the way it did – It feels horrible knowing all that poison is/was in me – and in another way, I needed to see that about myself.
    Thanks so much for your support

  137.  #137Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 1:07 pm


    I would change the word DUMPED if I were you. I can’t see how “dumped” could help your self esteem. I dump garbage. I am not garbage so I don’t think of any man as having the power to dump me.

  138.  #138BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    Mercedes he IS shiny. Super shiny, even, and I think he is attracted to my shiny..AND…
    he has a girlfriend. that he didn’t tell me about initially. that he is apparently committed to.
    and he triggers the effin crap out of me.

    He seems to have very little clue about the impact of his behavior on me. Having the grandbaby go back to her mom (he had her for a while) broke his heart and is possibly the first time he has EVER felt heartbreak.

    maybe I’m overreacting to all the pain I felt when he told me what was going on with his gf’s grandbaby that he wants custody of.
    and Elsie is right, I don’t have to decide anything right now.
    Just get through the day, keep the focus on me.
    Back to my mantra.

  139.  #139Malene on July 11, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Dominique…131…I have told him that FWB does not feel good to me. I feel like I should be collecting $$ when I walk out the door and that I feel angry after. he just says don’t feel like that cause your not one.

    I would definitely appreciate some help in writing the No FWB for me and to leave me alone text. Has to be text cause he will not call and talk to me. He communicates with me by text only. I have told him that before but he will text me and text me till I give in and respond. This time I feel it is really over for me cause I feel really bad. Drive home and cry and ask why God why he doesn’t want to be with me. Walk around my family and act like everything is okay is so hard when I feel like going to my room and crying. Remember they don’t know about us.

  140.  #140Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    “Dark/negative people only like negative people.”

    Which is the reason I am open around the concept of energy. Negative and positive vibrate at different frequencies. Dark and light cannot exist the same environment. So when someone decides to move on or say “we are not a match” I believe I do myself a favor in believing “those rejections are God’s protection”.

  141.  #141Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    @Feminine Woman – LOL – Its just a saying. It cracks me up – its not meant to be taken literally, in fact it lightens my heart just thinking of my friend and I saying it. 🙂 LOL

    @BeLoved – no need to apologize. If this guy already has a girlfriend, then I think it makes this even easier for you. Easier in the sense that the decision is clearer that this is toxic poison addiction for you sweetie.

    @Malene – If you feel EVER like a prostitute with someone you are with – I would leave instantaneously. Wow. Honey, please look at what you wrote. That must FEEL horrible to you – it feels horrible to me to read it. AND he ONLY talks to you through text? And he isnt there for you or your family? AND he sends you messages he sends to other girls, AND he doesnt ever take you out on a date? AND you arent allowed to even tell your family about him. Look. I dont know you but ANYONE deserves better than this sweetie. Please please please no contact. There are some sirens on here that will help you with the wording of the last text…..they are better than me (I’d let him have it!) LOL

  142.  #142Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 1:20 pm

    Malene do you realize you can request that the number be blocked?

    You don’t have to respond. Give yourself the option of at least “thinking” that you don’t have to. You are not his puppet with your strings in his hand. You don’t have to participate in his drama.

  143.  #143Mercedes on July 11, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Beloved: I guess I was thinking he knew how you feel about him. If he doesn’t, then that’s different. If he doesn’t know how you feel or how he makes you feel when you are around him (triggered) then there’s really nothing he can do, as a man, to “fix” it. So my bad for missing that piece of it.

    Ultimately then it is just YOU who needs to shine brightly (continue to) and to spread joy to yourself and beyond so that more more more shiny men will show up for you to choose from. 🙂

    Much Love,

  144.  #144Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Elsie I know that.

    Your brain doesn’t. It is an unconscious thing and counterintuitive to drop the “dumped” label that you have given to yourself.

  145.  #145Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Malene there is no need to respond. He is not even a friend. Friends don’t treat each other that way.

  146.  #146Malene on July 11, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    my text would be:
    I do not want to be in the FWB relationship we have anymore cause I want more. Being FWB does not feel good to me. I want a relationship and since you are not ready, then please do not contact me from here on so I can move on with my life.

    Do I mention that I am beginning to care for him and seeing him with another or other ladies hurts me or do I leave that out cause he may keep texting me knowing that.

  147.  #147April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Can I ask how old you are, and which family members you live with?

  148.  #148Dominique on July 11, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Malene – How about blocking him then, so you don’t have to see the texts from him?

    “What we have here just doesn’t feel good to me. I don’t want to do this anymore, for the feelings I have around you feel too painful. And I don’t want to continue contact, for this also feels too painful. Thank you for honoring me in this request.”

    And then ignore his texts or block him if you can. He will give up sooner or later.


  149.  #149Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    I’d love to know his age too. Sounds very immature.

  150.  #150Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    @Dominique – I love your response.

    @Malene – I would NOT write – please dont contact me so I can move on with my life. You dont need his permission or any action from him to do anything. You can move on whether or not he tries to contact you so dont give him that power in a sentence. 🙂

    I would leave out that seeing him with other women hurts you. I’m sure he already knows. And doesnt seem to care. Also, the rest of what Dominique wrote implies that you want to be exlusive with him and without that you are leaving.

  151.  #151Lady Sun on July 11, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Hi Rori and ladies,
    I’ve lived with a man for five years and the word I would use to describe how I feel about us is ‘almost’. I’ve always wanted more – more affection, more care, more of him initiating, more connection and intimacy – and I’ve expressed that in feeling messages in every way I can. I still come back to feeling undernourished in the relationship.
    I’m happier in myself and more at ease when I’m not with him. Is this a sign I should end it?

  152.  #152Malene on July 11, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    After reading your responses, I agree that he does not even require a response. I already told him that I was leaving the FWB relationship we had and to be with the other woman he has been cruising around town with. He has not responded after that message. So you are all right he does not require a response.

    Elsie….you are right! I should have left a long time ago when I started feeling like a prostitute. That was Christmas last year and I even voiced how I felt at the time I was walking out! He knew I was upset but he didn’t do or say anything. Thank you for putting all that is “not right” into words for me to read. I never even thought of how I was treated till now.

    Feminewoman…..It is true that friends don’t treat friends that way! I get that he was out for himself and does not care about my feelings or me at all! I know he uses the words I love you cause those words probably gets him what he wants with me and the other ladies. I really feel like this FWB relationship has reached its end. Its the after text that I would not know how to handle and I have never blocked a number before.

  153.  #153Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    @Malene – GOOD FOR YOU!!!!! I’m glad you realized he doesnt need a response. That is great progress and awesome on your part!

    I’m glad I could help you. These girls on here are awesome. I dont know what I would have done without them in the past year so I’m glad I could help you.

    Just block his number. You will be scared to do it and nervous and think “what if” but after you do it you will feel SO POWERFUL!!!!!!

    Sometime in the future you KNOW he will text you. And he will never ever get an answer. Now THAT has to bring a smile to your face. You go girl.

  154.  #154April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    I have been badly behaved under the symptoms of PMS aggravated by eating wheat and sugar.

    The dark goddess in me loves this. She feels powerful having a tantrum. She feels a release of restriction.
    I was running through a field of trees earlier and she was shouting “f*ck off” to the people (who came into my mind) who don’t get me. It felt pleasurable and relieving.

  155.  #155Malene on July 11, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    April Rose….I am 50 years old and he is 45 years old. I have one son, two daughters and a grandson. son is 18 yrs old, daughter is 29 and other daughter is 11 years old. grandson is 9 years old. I don’t live with my 29 year old daughter but she comes home every weekend.

  156.  #156April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    “Just block his number. You will be scared to do it and nervous and think “what if” but after you do it you will feel SO POWERFUL!!!!!!”

    Elsie, this feels exciting and fresh to read.

  157.  #157BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Mercedes – he knows. I *have* shown him my babytriggerface, he knows. I just think it was crap to sit at the table with me the other day, pick up a magazine, and leave me sitting there in front of a stack of dominoes without saying anything as if we hadn’t played together nearly every day for the past two years. He didn’t even say to me “I don’t feel like playing today”. I asked him, “Is this because I asked you to stop saying you were going to give me a spanking?” and he hung his head.

    Then it just sort of disintegrated from there.
    The next couple of days, he made arrangements with the OTHER guy we usually play with, to go play at a different part of the plant. I only know this because I overheard a conversation, he didn’t tell me and didn’t tell me he wasn’t going to be here – which he has been inconsistent in saying anything.
    I’ve gotten more thick-skinned about it, but it just hit me the wrong way the other day. I felt like…enough of this. Enough.
    He’s just ‘that’ way. He doesn’t want to answer to anyone. It’s not just me.
    I could be overreacting…idk and I will stay off the blog and on my horse after today and over the weekend.
    It all feels so silly now.

  158.  #158April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 1:48 pm


    You deserve a good man who shares in all that is beautiful in your life, including your family.

  159.  #159BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    April Rose – 153 made me laugh 🙂

  160.  #160April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    You don’t even have to block his number if he only texts and never calls.
    Simply delete it from your phone.

  161.  #161Malene on July 11, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    to all the beautiful ladies thank you for your comments. It made me realize what I thought we had was something when I was the one getting effed all this time, not only sexual but as a person also! what I still don’t get is why did he not choose to be with me. i know rori says “her? why her?” That is how I feel right now. I am just happy after hearing all your responses that I am doing the right thing! I also realized a lot of what was going on with us that was not right. Not in any relationship should anyone be treated like I was. Now to stay strong and block his number and not respond.

    Elsie….from your comments, I believe you know what to do with your friend also.

  162.  #162April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    Glad to raise a chuckle for you, Beloved.

    I love my dark goddess. I wonder if there is a man in this world who can love her too. She will test the b*llocks off him until he proves his love!

  163.  #163Malene on July 11, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    Now that I have talked with you ladies and not keeping my FWB problem to myself I feel good. Like a weight that was weighing me down was lifted off my chest. Now I don’t have to carry this secret FWB relationship problems by myself! You have all enlighten me on my situation and appreciate you all for it. At first I was hesitate on posting my problem but knew I had too cause I was crying a lot and keeping it all in cause I could not talk to anyone about it. Thank you for helping me. I will definitely block his number and not respond to him even though I know i will get a text from him later on. I will keep you all up to date on my progress of becoming a “siren” like you all and not to accept any more crumbs from this man!

  164.  #164April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    You won’t get a text if you delete his number from your phone.

  165.  #165April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    I think I got that mixed up. You would still get a text, but it would be a number that showed up, not his name.
    I remember now, Rori saying that deleting his number is to stop you from contacting him.

    Silly premenstrual April Rose!!! I love that silly gal 🙂

  166.  #166Malene on July 11, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    April Rose…I do not have his number in my phone so I can’t delete. I know his number by heart and I do not contact him at all. that is why he says he did not do anything wrong to me yet he is being ignored. I don’t know why he said that cause I never text him or contact him first!

    Maybe he is already feeling me being gone!

  167.  #167BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Help me sort this out….
    things felt fine, comfortable at work, smooth.
    Up until this week, I had hardly even thought of him outside of work. Practically never.
    I was feeling comfortable asking other people where he was, if he took the day off, without feeling needy – making peace with the fact that I do care for him and that was okay

    Then – unexpectedly he revealed to me that the mother of ‘his’ grandbaby took her back (she’s 2).
    He told me, “this is killing me…” and how attached he felt to her. When he said that, I felt like my heart exploded.
    He went home,
    I felt sick for a few days.
    He came in ..Monday? and mentioned he felt embarrassed for showing his feelings, when he did I told him yeah, I felt it, too, it made me really sick…
    at lunch I asked him to stop saying the spanking thing,
    next day the not-talking at break,
    then going somewhere else for lunch for 2 days, then today I ate with someone else…

    Like…I don’t want to be his ‘friend’ friend, outside of work, but I did actually feel comfortable and okay with the way things were at work, I had made my peace with it. I like him just fine, I just feel crap about the way we are handling whatever is coming up.
    It just felt like everything cascaded into a big fat mess since Monday.

    I don’t want to let this weirdness go on too long, I don’t like it, I don’t want it, and idk what is going on.
    I hate that I have infantile reactions and freak out.

    I don’t know.

  168.  #168April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    I trust the Universe so much, that I know what’s coming for me will surely find me, with no effort or searching or chasing on my part.

    I need do nothing.

  169.  #169April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    “He told me, “this is killing me…” and how attached he felt to her. When he said that, I felt like my heart exploded.”

    Is it that you want someone to care that much and that obviously, for you?

    Not necessarily him. Just that it was him who displayed such strength of emotion. Rare to experience such rawness in a man. Wow, in fact!

  170.  #170April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Have you sunk down into the ‘sick’ feelings it triggered in you? There might be some treasure for you to discover underneath what feels like ‘sick’.

  171.  #171BeLoved on July 11, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    April Rose – I would love for a man to feel that way about me – but not HIM! I’m really really okay with it and I’ve been sinking into the feelings like crazy and I think that what I’m learning is…really..that it’s okay to love and care for him and he can be in love with someone else and be crazy about them and it’s okay, that I’m okay and it’s all good, there’s enough love to go around.

    He’s a guy I like a lot who brings out strong feelings in me and I just…like him.

    And I’m officially logging of for the weekend here…
    thank you all so so so so much, I feel loved and thank youuuu….

    big hugs to everyone!!

  172.  #172Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    I’m feeling weird today…. the more I think about what we discussed last night… the more I’m just feeling like when am I ever going to get the tools…

    I keep forgetting to use my feeling messages and how do you feel? statements…

    and I’m just sabotaging the relationship and pushing things without meaning to….

    and I’m doing the best I can…

    I feel more confident now though… so not needy and fearful…

    “M” was suppose to get back with me a week ago on spending the night together… and since Wed. is our night to talk… I ask him… ( I know without my feeling messages) You were going to get back with me on something last week… just wondering about that…

    So, I had told him that spending the night together every now and then didn’t work for me… too hard to get used to it… when my sleep is so delicate etc… from an emotional point of view and though it works well for him when he does it when he wants to, it doesn’t work for me. I told him that I had expressed my needs months ago and I felt that they weren’t considered. ( this was last week during out talk)

    I said in order for me to be able to do it, I need it to be on a schedule, so I can get used to it… and feel comfortable with it being safe etc… so that 2 nights were better than one b/c the first night is always restless…. so that if that doesn’t work for him, then we would need to not spend the night together anymore…

    So, last night he told me he wasn’t ready for 2 night… again!!! not ready… but we spent 8 nights at his house when the rapist was hanging out in my neighborhood… doesn’t make sense to me…

    So, then I said ok, well I’ll let you know how I want to proceed then… since we won’t be spending the night together anymore..

    So, then the convo went to comittment…and how at 6mos I had a deadline… and wasn’t sure about my feelings about how things were progressing or not… and that it was time to know if indeed the relationship was working towards marriage…

    anyways… he feels I’m wanting marriage now, not what I said or meant, he is twisting it… then I just said it has to be working towards that… like we agreed in the beginning…

    so, then he said, it feels like I’m proposing marriage if I say that it is working towards it… I said I’m not wanting it now… but that I do need to know that it is going there IF things work out…

    Then I said… in a No boyfriend way… it might be better since your now sure, for me to put my profile back on , and see other people until … he didn’t like that idea but I didn’t have enough energy or guts to just say, that I’m ready for a commitment and since your not, … and take your time … I keep f’ing up the no boyfriend speech… I could have had the window was cracked… all I had to do is remember the script…

    I told him I was in no hurry as to rush him, but that it has been 6 mos… and that if it isn’t going towards marriage, I need to know b/c that is my goal and I’m looking for that…

    He was very tired and so was I…. so when he left he said thanks for hanging in there with me tonight and helping me go deeper into things and realize what I want… ( I still didn’t know what he wants unless I missed something)

    He said I love you! and I could see that he does, by his words and action…

    But I can already tell he is withdrawing… and I’m feeling like I want to too…. just b/c I’m so tired of hearing I’m not ready, when I’m not wanting to push things I just want to know where he IS… and I do get to decide all the way, if I want to stay or go…

    I do feel that 6mos is long enough to know if you want to move forward or not..

    So, I was circle dating big time today… smiling and being open to men where ever I was shopping ….. getting looks and accepting them… loving it…

    would be nice to have circle dating lunch or hikes etc….

    I’m tired… and really just feel like going inward now… and not worrying about him… or us… and focus on ME and my child… going to dig in the dirt now…


  173.  #173Malene on July 11, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    have a good evening everyone. Thank you for all your help! signing off now.

  174.  #174April Rose on July 11, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    Asking a man to stop doing something is a habit I have.
    It’s neither truthful nor respectful.
    All I can do is to say how I feel about the thing he is doing.
    I can’t control whether he does something or not. What I can do is reveal how it makes me feel. And say I don’t want to feel that way.

  175.  #175Erika Awakening on July 11, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    It feels so good not focusing on any man, or men, or dating … I am imagining the waterwheel as my relationship with the Divine, and I feel filled up …

    I like to receive love in the form of money, and mostly when people support my business financially. I learned this with my blog, because for the first year I received no money and lots of attention. At the end of the day, the attention didn’t give me much of anything that I wanted. I still had to work a full-time job and I got to feeling very resentful until I created financial boundaries. When people give me money, it feels like their “kind words” actually mean something. They care enough about my well-being to want to see me living in abundance and freedom. This is not the same as a man “trading” romantic gifts for sex, which doesn’t feel good to me at all. People supporting my life purpose feels like they actually see ME, not some bizarre fantasy image of me …

  176.  #176Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    WOW I’ve been focusing more on Me and getting things more oraganized working on ideas for my business and I’ve missed over 100 posts… YIKES…

    I feel bad… that I just struggle to keep up… yet it feels so good to focus on me… and not him or it ( the relationship) I got lots done this evening in happy focused way… played and enjoyed my child… and he is far far away in my mind… funny how focusing on him and it can really stall my life… my energy… my time… my focus…
    that ticks me Off!

    I’m determined to focus on ME and my life and my passions… and my child and life, nature…what brings my life meaning…

    I might have screwed things up last night who knows one thing for sure… I’m not the only one that is in this and it takes two to tango… AND I’m not going to take all the credit… I’m doing the best I can with an open heart loving and accepting him, being there for him, and melting, being vulnerable… and honest… SO what I have to say IS if that isn’t enough for man… then I need to move on… I’m a great catch, I’m very deeply loving and wonderful girlfriend… so! Queens don’t worry about it… they know there is more where that came from… b/c they know they have value…

    I love him but I’m not addicted to him, and I can love him without attachment…

    WOW that felt good to get off my chest….

    @ AprilRose sending love {{ hugs}}}
    @ Indigo sending love and {{[ hugs}}
    @ Elsie love and {{ hugs }}


  177.  #177Femininewoman on July 11, 2013 at 6:12 pm

    Lisa I wonder if he experiences the negotiating for 2 nights as you strategizing, because you do want more?

    “… but we spent 8 nights at his house when the rapist was hanging out in my neighborhood” – any good man would do this to help out a friend. It is not necessarily an invite to build a romantic experience together.

    “I told him I was in no hurry as to rush him, but that it has been 6 mos… and that if it isn’t going towards marriage, I need to know b/c that is my goal and I’m looking for that…” – this reads like putting in the time. Like a prison sentence. If it is a goal, after you get married then what? Many men are afraid of marriage because of this very thing. It is as if the girls are not interested in the man as a human being. They have a goal and getting the man is the target. It is the dream of many a girl so they hold on to a man desperately, regardless of the cost.

  178.  #178Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    @Lisa – you know I love you – but wow, I think 6 months is not enough to know whether or not you want to marry someone and I’m a girl. 🙂 It does sound like you are super mega pressuring him. PLEASE read the book Addicted because you are so anxious attached, its 100% you. Please. Please.

    This man sounds like a GREAT man who can verbalize his feelings. You are pushing and pushing.

    For two weeks (or a month) do NOTHING. Literally NOTHING. Do not ask to talk. Do not initiate anything. Just be. Let it be. Just relax. I am very nervous reading your posts and I’m not even in the relationship with you. This man may truly marry you, but you NEED to relax and just let go. Please.

    I agree with everything Feminine Woman said. 8 nights to protect you from a rapist is different than a romantic getaway. You are then telling him one night isnt enough, he needs to do two. Then you wil be telling him three, etc. move in, etc.

    You said you were in no hurry to rush him, but then immediately rushed him by talking about the fact that it was only 6 months.

    PLEASE please PLEASE take it from me. Just do nothing for 4 weeks. Please. Even one week. Start there, literally do nothing.

    It does sound like you are more interested in marriage than in being with THIS PERSON the rest of your life.

    Your panic is evident and I am sure that he reads it.

    I am sooooooo not trying to be mean, because I really want good things for you and I want you two to end up together. please listen to me and feminine woman. 🙂

    Its only a bit of time. You will feel better after it…..ok?

  179.  #179Zia on July 11, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    Elise – glad to see your posts today. I also find that I’m awesome and feeling in control and resolute for the first 3 or so days then I have a major crash around day 3/4 after contact and feel like i NEED to re-establish some kind of connection, ANY kind. It’s serious withdrawl!

  180.  #180Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    Zia – exactly. Its like an addiction. Its soooo hard to break.

    I’m setting small goals for myself.

    I am going on a lunch date (I think) tomorrow ….


    My next small goal is to try not to think about him at all over the weekend.

    My next goal is to not initiate ANY contact with him at all next week.

    If he ends up giving me that present I think he is going to get me, I will be gracious and say thank you, (its for an injury of mine) but not gush.

    Those are my goals.

    Baby steps. But no contact except when necessary.

  181.  #181Dominique on July 11, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    Elsie – You sit there, and say nothing.


  182.  #182Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    @Dominique – ugh…..I dont know if I can do that!!!!!! LOL

    The waiter came last time and said, “Should I split the bill?”

    And he and I both looked at each other and just were nervously smiling and we both raised our eyebrows like “I dont know”….and then I couldnt take the silence anymore and I said – yes, go ahead and split it.

    But what do I do this time if I cant take the silence…….Oh Dominique I dont think I can take the silence, I’m being honest. I know myself in that moment, I dont think I can do it……

    Where do I look? How do I look? Ugh….

  183.  #183Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Lisa, I’m thinking the same thing. I would just drop the oars with him. Put up you profile, date other people. Am I understanding/reading correctly that you are currently not spending the night at each others houses?

    If he is not making room in his life for a real committed relationship with you, then talking marriage is premature. It doesn’t really matter what he says about his feelings… He is not showing up.

    He sounds very very focused on himself.

    What you want is a relationship that is moving toward marriage. He is not giving you that.

    The other thing I’m not clear on is: are you meeting weekly to talk about the relationship? That doesn’t sound fun. You should be dating each other and having a good time. I may have misunderstood….CW can barely take 10 minutes of relationship talk. Let alone a weekly talk.

  184.  #184Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    Elsie– lol

    You crack me up!

    You are on a roll today.

    It’s really true that one of the best ways to grow is to help other people.

    In AA that is why they have sponsorship…. Even if you have only been sober for a day, there is someone you can help who has been sober for less time than you.

    I wouldn’t pay. Don’t offer. That is one of the biggest things I’ve learned recently is to be quiet. Do not fill the awkward spaces. Men don’t expect us to. The awkward space leads to greater attraction– it’s weird, but I keep testing it and it works every time. Stay open, smile, let there be silence…and guys do some pretty remarkable things!

  185.  #185Indigo on July 11, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    Thank you for the hugs Lisa xxx

    I’ve come to an important realization recently; the ability to feel good has always been there, regardless of what a man, or anyone else for that matter, is doing.

    I can’t help but feel awed by how some beautiful, wise part of me has taken care of me, leading me to amazing experiences and realisations, and eventually back to the realization of my love for myself, holding my heart gently and safely all the while, looking after me.

  186.  #186Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    @Wildgeranium – I TRIED to do that last time, but the silence was deafening and I just couldnt take it anymore. What if he doesnt really want to pay for me, and thinks I’m just money grubbing or something for not splitting, but frankly, I dont want to be with a guy who wont pay at least at first thats a big deal to me.

    Bleah. Ugh. And other gross noises. LOL.

    Am I supposed to smile and look down? Smile and look at him? What if he says nothing?

    Can I say – well, I decided last time, this time its up to you? Can I at LEAST say that?! PLEASE?!?!?!?!! lol.

  187.  #187Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 7:15 pm

    Did he ask you on the date?

    He should pay.

    This sets the tone for whatever happens going forward….

    Unless you want a relationship where everything is going Dutch…..I’d say for quite a few dates, he should pay.

  188.  #188Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    Actually, if you have to say something- use a feeling message??

    This feels awkward…
    This feels funny….
    This feels icky….

    If he is a masculine man, the *last* thing he wants to do is ask you how to handle it, so just keep quiet….

    I guess you could head for the ladies room when the check comes!

  189.  #189Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    @Wildgeranium –

    Yes, he asked me out the first time, but it was to catch up as old friends from college…..not a date, so I was sort of ok paying…..sort of.

    But this time the “feel” of it is different and it definitely feels like a lunch date.

    OK I like “This feels awkward……”

    I only want masculine guys…..so if I end up paying dutch, I probably wont go out with him again.

    And I cant really head for the ladies room because of where this place is- its hard to explain its in the middle of an old theatre and the restroom is miles away LOL. Its hard to explain. Its in a building that is 150 years old. LOL.

    He hasnt texted yet tonight so I have no idea if we are on for tomorrow or not. He didnt text yesterday either which is totally fine with me, I seriously dont care. But he asked me on Wed. and we had TENTATIVE plans for Friday.

    If he doesnt text me tonight, and then tomorrow morning asks if lunch is still on, should I say yes? Or is that too late? Etc?

  190.  #190Flower on July 11, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    Thank you Rori for this insightful article. It describes what I’m feeling, thinking and going through

  191.  #191Erika Awakening on July 11, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    Continuing focus on me … lol … I went for massage today, really holding tension in my hips and tush right now so that felt great to get some release. Barely thinking about men at all and reminding myself to go back to the holy instant. A little more anger with creepy guy surfaced … anger that he was so “into” my “hot” photographs after I lost weight, where I’m wearing nice dresses and stilettos … and he showed up totally fashion-less, wearing white sneakers to a first date(!!) … which just symbolized everything else about the situation … there’s still this “how the hell did he think he was going to attract a woman like this?” and lurking in there is my anger that I believe the Universe and dating coaches and part of myself are all asking me to “settle” for far less than what I really want. I reminded myself that I really do not want to put any more energy into this man who is not even in my life anymore. Back to the holy instant.

    Got my scuba equipment back so it’s ready for Bali, and some healthy yummy groceries, then back home. Spent a lot of money and it felt good when I checked my voice-mail and the insurance company is sending me a good-sized check. Feels like a relief.

    I mostly don’t feel like doing much. “I need do nothing” is great and there are still “shoulds” in my mind telling me I need to do more, like for my business.

    Right now I’m curling up with the Bali book and beginning to decide where to stay. 6 nights at the Four Seasons in Sayan feels delicious. They have specialty massages for every chakra …

    Who would I be without the belief that I “need” a romantic relationship in my life? I’m finding out … 🙂

  192.  #192Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 7:59 pm


    Yes, I thought of that today… he took it the wrong way…

    Ok this isn’t any different than when we first started dating being clear that marriage is the goal.. I did make it clear that, I wasn’t wanting to know if he wants to marry me… but that marriage was still on the plate… I’ve read it in Rori’s stuff also…

    I guess, I’m just not really making myself clear or something… or to him… I don’t want to be in a relationship IF marriage isn’t the goal … not wanting to know IF he is ready for it… I’ve made it clear this way all along… and before he would say yes, it is my goal to be married… and it was light and easy…

    Ok I’m confused… I thought all along that I needed to have the goal of marriage in mind and to keep it on the plate and clear that was my goal…

    Yes, he is a good man… and NO I don’t want to push him… this has really gotten all tangled up… and confusing and messy…

    6mos was my time limit to know if, things could be committed and working towards marriage if things do work out… wasn’t my deadline to know that I’m the one or have a ring… though I’ve heard that happens to women using Rori’s method…

    Yes, your right a good man would do that to anyone as a friend… and though we weren’t friends.. and we slept in the same bed together for 8 night and he wanted me there ( and ask me to stay) the rest of the month…He also just ask me and my child to come stay with him another week…. It doesn’t compute… I guess my point is, that he can’t sleep with me 2 nights b/c he isn’t ready?

    What about me? It’s hard on me to constantly have to do things on his time frame and his desire. I feel like a yo-yo… I know he needs to lead the relationship, but I feel he isn’t taking my needs into consideration too…

    Oh dear! I’m so confused now… I thought I was doing it right…. but now reading your take on it… I’m controlling and leading… bluggg

    so what do I do now…?


  193.  #193Erika Awakening on July 11, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    Lurking in there also was anger about a belief that most men are just F-ing clueless. The indignant part of me keeps going over it in my mind, “wow, how did that guy get ‘hot public figure woman with successful business is going to date guy who has no real purpose in his life and wears white sneakers to first dates.’?”

    Lot of judgment there that I need to release. I feel soooo judgmental of that guy. Sometimes I find myself judging that way when I read posts here, too, and I want to scream, “Ladies, you’re expecting way too much from these guys … they are all F-ing clueless. They are not ever going to step up because they don’t know how. They need coaching, they need radical transformation themselves.” And then I catch myself lol and breathe …

    Back to the holy instant. Feeling the righteous indignation …. ooh grief underneath that. Disappointment. Breathe. Feel.

  194.  #194Erika Awakening on July 11, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    I can only imagine how many YEARS of feeling messages it would take for that guy to “get it” … I can’t imagine anything more tedious and awful than attempting to “coach” him with feeling messages instead of extremely blunt direct statements … I think I would literally go mad with anger trying to do that …

    Back to Bali and me 🙂

  195.  #195Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 8:12 pm


    Ok…. I get it… i’m still confused.. and I wasn’t anxious, I was just clear… but I’m going to let it go… b/c I don’t want to lose him..

    and I can’t do one night here and there… sorry.. it’s too hard on me… and I need to take care of me… so I’ll just have to go to no spending the night together… I have to also look at my own emotional needs which I haven’t been doing b/c the focus has been 100% on his needs and when he is ready and what works for him, and how to make it so he is comfortable…

    I got beaten to death by a man that crashed into my bedroom window while I was peacefully asleep, and thought I’ve healed sooo much from that.. and I have no PTSD from it now… I still have a very healthy need to have some type of sleep consistency… and I’ve forgone that for him, and now that I have forgone it for him so that now he is comfortable with sleeping with me… I need to do what works for me too…

    I only hope that he will listen to my needs and realize that I need to do what works for me too… it was very very very hard for me to get used to sleeping with him for 8 nights + and feel safe and consistent and then have to undo all that when he freaked out… and now I’m back to square one… and that hurts… b/c he wants me to do the yo-yo thing with sleep and that feels awful to me…

    Should I apologize to him and tell him that I’m sorry that the conversation was me feeling fearful… and that I wasn’t and don’t want to push him…

    I do not want him to be in a prison…that wasn’t’ my intent and no Marriage isn’t the main thing…

    man… I’m so hurt and confused now..

    I have a way of really f’ing things up… I guess right before our anniversary night…

    No Elsie, I’m not upset with you and yes I know you love me… I can take the truth and other people’s opinions…

    right now, I’m feeling horrible… and totally confused as hell…


  196.  #196Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 8:21 pm


    Yes, we talk weekly about things that might be bothering us…. and we talk as long as we need to…

    He is focused on himself yes, he makes room for me 3-4 nights a week, but after 6mos we spend the night together maybe twice a month…

    He does take care of me, nurturers me… does things for me… and his meditation time and practice is what he says is bothering him to where he doesn’t feel he can do more…

    Well “M” has a degree in psychology so maybe that is why he can do more than 10 mins.. but yeah he doesn’t really like it… but since he gets to also tell me what is bothering him about me… he had discovered that he likes it ok now..

    I do want a relationship that is working towards marriage… that’s all… not asking him to know if he is ready for it with me, or not asking for a ring now… just want to make sure that he is indeed working towards it… somehow it has turned into me wanting marriage now…

    No I don’t want to talk marriage… I made that clear… I just want it to be on the plate..

    Like Rori has said, to be clear that marriage is what I’m looking for… a commitment.. eventually not now…

    I just don’t want to be strung along if he knows it isn’t what he wants and if he knows it isn’t me then I need to know, so I can move on…

    I guess, I’m not explaining it well in my posts…

    Thanks for you post…. <3 {[Hugs}}

  197.  #197Millie on July 11, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    I feel like I need to take time off from the blog…
    I feel pressure on myself to act a certain way…I just need to step away for a bit. Maybe I’m not ready….maybe I’m still battling myself inside…maybe this all feels so serious and I’m not ready for serious REALLY…it’s easy to say you want that….but I’m not sure I do. Anyway, I’m gonna step back and just be for awhile….

  198.  #198Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    @Millie – I understand, sometimes it can get overwhelming when new informaiton and others opinions are coming at you. We really are all trying to help, I hope you know that. Just go be. We’ll be here when you get back. 🙂

  199.  #199Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 8:46 pm


    “I just don’t want to be strung along if he knows it isn’t what he wants and if he knows it isn’t me then I need to know, so I can move on…” This is exactly where I get sort of hung up too at times…. The way I’ve heard it described is that men know that we want to get married (the good men who can be in a relationship). They assume all women want to get married. He is still there and trying so that to me says marriage is still on the table. You’ve only been dating 6 months…I don’t think that is long enough to be strung along. Maybe a year.

    Only staying over 2 nights a month would be a deal breaker for me. (unless there were truly extenuating circumstances). He works from home and he can’t get in his meditation early enough to stay over? He gets up early for the financial markets? How will this ever change? Does he have a plan?


  200.  #200Elsie on July 11, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    Ok – no text tonight. Hmmmm… I GUESS that I’m still having lunch tomorrow? His last texts to me on Wed. night were that he was going to try to take a 1/2 day on Friday so that he could go to lunch with me…..and then we flirted a bit and thats it.

    So if he says in the morning – are we still on for lunch, do I say yes?

    Ugh. THIS is why I hate circular dating. You actually have to …. circular date. Ugh.

  201.  #201Zara on July 11, 2013 at 8:55 pm

    From my posts back in the year 2011.

    Why Good Women Stay With Bad Men


    “She is such a smart, attractive woman. Why is she putting up with HIM?”

    How often have we heard this at home or at the office?

    I am going to answer the question with my professional counseling opinion based on 35 years experience dealing with women and men in relationships

    This article is divided into four areas, following Jungian archetypal divisions:

    => Playgirl
    => Amazon
    => Mother
    => Black Madonna or Madonna Inspiritus.

    => The Playgirl aspect in every woman’s psyche — in every culture — seeks physical pleasure through all her five senses.
    Nature supports her mating well, especially through the sense of smell, her pheromones.
    Dr. Theresa L. Crenshaw, a pioneer in sexual medicine, in her 1996 book, The Alchemy of Love and Lust, writes about the “bonding” influence of the peptide oxytocin.

    Oxytocin is secreted from the pituitary gland’s posterior lobe from which it goes to receptor sites in the brain and throughout the reproductive tract, especially where estrogen resides.
    Dr. Crenshaw’s work is based on a Niles Newton 1978 article, “The Role of the Oxytocin Reflexes in Three Interpersonal Reproductive Acts: Coitus, Birth and Breast Feeding.”
    Oxytocin increases sensitivity to touch, especially sexual touching, particularly at the time of orgasm. Alcohol lowers oxytocin.

    How does this oxytocin effect impact a woman’s relationship to men?
    When she first meets a potential mate, she is either:

    >Open to investigate
    >Highly attracted

    If she is >”disinterested”, it may be because of an intellectual decision that the man is not eligible due to unacceptable looks, social skills, or poor financial prospects.
    These factors can all be overridden by continued dating exposure if the pheromones (chemistry) are basically positive.
    Her brain may disqualify him, while her body says “yes.”
    I advise women to date each decent man at least three times before discarding him as a suitor. If he passes this “brain barrier” and she determines he is eligible to >”investigate” — and the chemistry is reciprocal — then normal dating occurs.

    The >“highly attracted” category is the most addictive-prone area and the one that I wish to address.
    When a woman is in the presence of an oxytocin-stimulating man, she may override her intellectual judgment about their “compatibility,” especially when she attempts to diminish oxytocin’s impact with alcohol.

    Where formerly she might be sexually conservative, requiring a serious commitment, she now finds herself deeply involved sexually before negotiating boundaries, such as his (or her) current marital status, criminal background, and financial accountability.

    The problem with oxytocin-based addictive bonding to an inappropriate man is that the intellect is relegated to a secondary status in choice and judgment.
    The good counsel of parents, friends, religious leaders and psychotherapists is of no benefit. Addiction to oxytocin as a pleasure takes over.

    2008 Dr. Pat Allen P.H.D

  202.  #202Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    So, in reality:
    1) you really aren’t invested in this relationship (you’ve had 1 lunch).
    2) you’re circular dating so you can experiment & learn
    3) *if* he contacts you at the last minute tomorrow you could say you already have lunch plans, because you didn’t hear from him , yada yada yada…
    ….and then see what he does….

  203.  #203Zara on July 11, 2013 at 8:58 pm


    => The Amazon

    The Women’s Liberation Movement has freed the Amazon to such a degree that many women put its aspects of money, power, and prestige before the other three archetypes.
    Many young pre-menopausal women are embarrassed to admit that they want to marry and have children ahead of career-building.

    The decision about being a Woman with a Career and not a Career Woman is the dilemma of our era.
    Putting career performance ahead of processing marriage and babies, while a woman is young, produces distress in the body and raises cortisol levels in the system.
    To be fertile, a woman’s brain must absorb the neurotransmitter serotonin, which is a natural tranquilizer.

    Long-term, career-driven distress causes an inhibition of serotonin release.
    This inhibition directly impacts the hormonal balance necessary for impregnation.
    The current usage of SSRIs is a medical approach to alleviate the serotonin deprivation due to distress.
    Essentially, young women are not designed to live like testosterone or progesterone-based men and postmenopausal women.

    Further repercussions of young career women with serotonin deprivation are carbohydrate craving and drinking to soothe the anxious nervous system by raising the brain’s glucose levels.
    Toleration and craving indicate that there is an addictive process going on in a woman’s body — whether genetically based or stress-related.

    Once a woman has committed to a Career Woman/Amazon lifestyle of performance and competition for money, power and prestige, she often must pay sexually and martially.
    This woman is highly susceptible to a “bad man.”
    Men who feed off distressed career women, financially and/or sexually, are aided and abetted when women are anxious.
    This anxiety can be due to being over-worked, over-stressed, overly medicated with drugs or disinhibited with alcohol, or having low self-esteem from the shame and guilt of eating disorders.

    A man with a good “line” and the right chemistry can easily “bond” such an Amazon woman.
    T.G.I.F can occur at the end of everyday, calling for kick-back pleasure, especially sex.
    He often becomes the Amazon’s dependent “toy-boy” or her dominating abuser — neither a good husband or father for the children she wants “some day soon.”

    Everyday I see women, whose clocks are pounding, who beg for help to abstain from “him” — the “bad man.”.
    They want a “good man,” but view him to be “boring” or a “sell out.”
    Quiet goodness and stability don’t “feel” like passion, which becomes the mainstay of women with exciting, painful, passionate bad men.

    Affection, comfort, and being pleasured by a loving, generous, protective, cherishing man does not seem “right” to a woman who has sexually bonded to a man who uses or abuses her.
    Struggling and pain are part and parcel of her career, as well as her sex life.

    Adulation of the Amazon archetype has cost many young women motherhood and marriage in exchange for careers that would be better served after menopause and chemistry changes.
    Getting an education in preparation for a delayed career and getting married and having children sooner rather than later, seems more balanced and less susceptible to “bad men” desperate choices.
    Our life span has extended into the 80s.

    I advise women to carefully decide their sequence of life events.
    Are you a “Career Woman” or a “Woman with a Career on the side or later in life”?
    Each has value and each costs with motherhood and marriage.
    Career Women will make money whether married or not, but may not enjoy motherhood.
    Women with careers delayed or on the side may not make as much money, power or prestige as their Amazon sisters, but they may enjoy their marriages and motherhood more.
    My offices are full of unhappy Amazons, not happy moms.

  204.  #204Zara on July 11, 2013 at 9:01 pm


    => The Mother

    The Mother Archetype and its relationship to self-destructive relationships are my next topic.
    In Freudian psychology, daughters are impacted more by their fathers than their mothers. It is in the reflection of her father’s approval that a daughter perceives her value as a woman.
    Mother is a role model or the lack of one.
    When dad is gone, drunk, incestuous, a workaholic, dead, or disinterested, a daughter must look elsewhere for reflection of her self-value.

    Often mother is doing her ”Amazon” expression — she is post-menopausal, single, or in a dual-career marriage.
    The young woman soon learns that performance, or “doing good,” at home, school, job/career is the goal that Dad approves of, rather than the less goal-oriented processing of “feeling good,” body pleasuring, cherishable femininity.
    To be a cherishing Daddy requires giving attention.
    This cherishable act is not as efficient, effective or time economical as requiring a daughter to perform respectably.
    The latter requires less attention like “atta-girl” strokes.
    Where does she get her cherishable pleasure? You guessed it: sex or food or both.

    Daddy-deprived daughters become Daddy-deprived women who often empathize with Mommy-deprived men.
    Becoming his archetypal “Mother” naturally leads to sexual bonding, thus perpetuating her starvation for cherishing from a man.
    She desensitizes her pain by letting him move into her home, allowing him to borrow money, accepting verbal or physical abuse, or rationalizing that he “needs” a good woman to help heal his childhood traumas.
    She may let years go by, as she experiences abortions, lost money, body damage, etc., before she hits a bottom where the pain overrides her oxytocin pleasure.

    If she chooses to have a child with this man, the oxytocin stimulated by gestation and lactation can cause her to bond to the baby as a source of pleasure over the man.
    This phenomenon results in a competition that can lead to splitting up and then engaging in a healing process for her.
    It can also entail a healing process for him, whereby he begins to cherish his child and its mother.
    However, if he becomes angry and jealous of his child, it can result in a “shaken baby” injury if he is asked to baby-sit for a crying child.
    Or he may simply replace her with another woman who is a more attentive mother to him.

  205.  #205Zara on July 11, 2013 at 9:06 pm


    => The Black Madonna

    To this point, I have dealt with the three “practical” archetypes — the Playgirl, Amazon and the Mother — and their impact on women who self-destruct with narcissistic men.
    I now want to talk about the one unique to women.
    It is the spiritual, “abstract” archetype named the Black Madonna or Madonna Inspiritus.

    Men have their three “practical” archetypal images in their psyches which match women’s — the Playboy, the Hero (Amazon) and the Father, but women alone have the Black Madonna or Madonna Inspiritus.

    The lack of actualization of The Black Madonna IS the foundation for why smart, attractive women put up and stay with inappropriate men. When a woman has the psychic ability to say “NO” to inappropriate men, even when chemically attracted, she is expressing her Black Madonna voice.

    Girls and women today may attend a religious center and not develop their Black Madonna.
    They may be sexually conservative and not develop their Black Madonna skills.
    Psychotherapy for past wounds will not do it.
    To develop the Black Madonna (Inspiritus), she must know how and when to say”yes” to men, sex, marriage, and motherhood.

    In Jungian, psychodynamic terms each woman has a balance of energy between her body (yin) and her animus (yang) soul.
    This balance manifests in three ways:

    -A balanced anchor which she uses to be a “feel-good” to “do-good” woman
    -A shovel whereby she gives pleasure to “him” and hopes he will reciprocate
    -A claw” — she is a Puella Aeternus (little girl forever) who expects him to shovel pleasure into her without regard for his needs.

    Every man has his persona body (yang) and his anima (yin) soul.
    He demonstrates balance in two ways:
    giving, protecting and cherishing (yang) women, children, animals and the planet
    living in his Puer Aeternus (little boy forever) whereby he uses and/or abuses women, kids, animals and the planet.

    I shall deal with the imbalanced “shovel” woman and her broken sister, the “claw,” before I describe a healthy, balanced, self-loving “anchored” woman.

    When the Playgirl Archetype manifests itself as a “shovel,” a girl/woman gives, protects and cherishes a man too much, especially sexually and financially.
    She is animus (yang energy) driven rather than receiving pleasure (yin) before giving back.
    Her ego strength is misaligned with her yang soul (animus) rather than her body.
    She is ego-dystonic rather than ego-syntonic; she is inside-out, unbalanced and susceptible to use and abuse by ego-dystonic men who are also inside-out.
    This man’s ego needs to receive pleasure (yin anima), and he must only be sexually available to women who are generous, protective and cherishing of his needs before their own (mommy).
    His sexual passive-aggressiveness is triggered when she complains about her needs.

    The Puella Aeternus “Claw” (yang) animus woman takes from helpless yin anima men (daddy).
    She is so narcissistic, as is a Puer Aeternus yin man, that she lacks compassion or appreciation for a good, balanced man.
    She preys on older men who are susceptible to their estrogen-enhanced oxytocin bonding.
    She likes to sexually seduce men as mistress, prostitute, or dominatrix for money.
    She is not vulnerable until she is post-menopausal when her self-esteem declines sexually. At that time, a con-man (yin), often younger, will turn the tables on her for financial gain.

  206.  #206Erika Awakening on July 11, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    Phew, that’s too much analysis for me. I feel dizzy and caged in reading that kind of analysis.

    I feel excited imagining six days in Ubud, with yoga, massage, and exploring … I feel excited about trying this free diving and going so deep on one breath.

    Today I saw the guy who runs this free diving just broke a world record – he went 96 meters into the sea on one breath … we have been taught our whole lives that such things are “impossible” … I find thinking about dating to be so small next to defying all bodily limitations … or even immersing myself fully in a massage …

  207.  #207Zara on July 11, 2013 at 9:12 pm


    The remainder of this article deals with the healthy, balanced, ego-syntonic >“anchored” in her as a woman, a Black Madonna, a Madonna Inspiritus, a Goddess.
    When a woman is anchored by her animus (yang) soul, she will only say “yes” to what “feels good” to her body, thereby enhancing its health, prosperity and fertility.

    When a man is anchored by his loving anima (yin) soul, he “wants” to give, protect and cherish. He “wants” to “do good” to feel good about himself.
    He will have the courage to want and court a healthy woman with pleasure.
    He will give to get back and she will give back to get more.
    “Faint heart ne’r won fair maiden.”

    To be castrated or intimidated of his anima yin soul condemns him to either:
    Use women
    Be used by women who themselves are castrated of their animus yang soul ability to say “NO”, the Black Madonna power.

    A man “sees” what he wants.
    A woman “hears” what she wants.
    When this is reversed, the energy balance within each is unbalanced and needs spiritual healing (therapy by an aware counselor). How is this done? I recommend Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy.

  208.  #208Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 9:13 pm


    Yes, I see your point… he is still working on it, still with me, still saying I’m perfect for him…

    He does work from home, he does get up early for the financial market and he could meditate before our dates… yes… he pretty much has a very laid back and low stress life… he doesn’t work many hours a day..his days are pretty much his own, but he says he does need to be rested in order to work the financial market, which I understand it is a hard thing the market..and it is cut throat… so that I get…

    I have talked to him in depth about how WE could work it out… him meditate at my house when I’m putting my child to sleep, him meditating before he comes over for our dates, him maybe meditating more hours on the off days… and even sometimes going to his house after dinner for him to meditate and then us go dancing afterwards… I’ve been very flexible… and understanding …

    but constantly using his spirituality and meditation as a distancing block doesn’t feel right… b/c your right how is this ever going to change…

    I don’t know if he has a plan… I’d have to say No he doesn’t…which might be why I’m feeling the need to know if marriage is on the table still… that makes sense…

    Yes, for me, staying over 1 night at a time twice a month seems really non committal… and he justifies it by saying he isn’t ready… so after 6mos… when will he be ready? It just feels like he is dragging it out for some reason.. I just don’t know what the reason is…

    I told him last night that he is saying he isn’t ready so much that he is convincing me he really isn’t ready… and that it seemed like a mantra..

    Thanks so much! This is really helping me…


  209.  #209Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 9:19 pm

    @ Elsie I’m so glad your cir’ dating… I’m so proud of you… and I know it can be hard…

    I don’t think I might be the one to give advice here but I don’t keep a date unless it is a for sure plan the man has made and it’s clear… otherwise I assume it isn’t a date.. if he said he’d try to get a 1/2 day off to have lunch but didn’t confirm it…

    but don’t listen to me, too many other women on here with more experience…


  210.  #210Zara on July 11, 2013 at 9:23 pm


    I shall use a composite case study and call her Sylvia.

    Sylvia is between 35-40, well-dressed, well-groomed, successful in her career or profession (often a therapist).
    She may have any ethnic or religious background with or without past marriages, legitimate or illegitimate children.
    She is either in a relationship with a yin-oriented, yang-deficient man or she wants out of a relationship with him.

    She may be physically abused, but she is always emotionally abused by inadequate, intimidating, women-hating men.
    These men at first seduce her with a cunning con sexually.

    Once she is “bonded,” the abuse begins.
    She “knows” he is bad for her and her child, but she cannot leave based on fear or guilt.
    In truth, she must be taught through her mind rather than her feelings because her feelings serve him rather than her.
    Being ego-dystonic causes a loss of her feeling experience and a loss of his logic (due to his exacerbated feelings).
    They fit together pathologically in a dance of symbiosis or learned helplessness.

    A thorough intake will reveal how the balance was lost as a child usually between 3 to 10 years.
    Special notice must be taken of unresolved issues with Dad. Was he gone? Drunk? Dead? Workaholic? Ill? Violent? Incesting? Was he castrated with his own issues?
    What about mom? What kind of role model was she?
    Was there an older “star” sister or a “baby” sister to compete with?
    Is there a “Momma’s boy” brother whom Dad rejected as a “sissy,” thereby putting pressure on Sylvia to perform more and process feelings less?
    Perhaps performance is the goal for everyone in the family and she naturally follows suit.

    Sylvia comes to the office when the pain becomes intolerable.
    She wants it all: home, children, career, love, and a good man who loves her and who show its.
    And, she wants it all NOW.

    The first behavioral agreement I get from Sylvia is NO SEX, intercourse with anyone, including “him”.
    If violence is involved, I ask her to move to a safe environment away from him in order to “detox” her off of the oxytocin.
    If necessary, she must have him arrested and put in jail or she must go to the police and file a stalking report.

    If she is unwilling to detox, she is trying to get emotional support from me, which she often is already receiving from girlfriends and other emotive therapists who do not realize that she is addicted to the oxytocin produced in her gonads and restimulated EVERY time she smells him with or without intercourse.
    Sylvia may need to “go out” there longer to hear what I am saying.

    If she is willing to “transfer” to me therapeutically, I ask her to begin reading materials which will educate her about the research backing my treatment.
    I also ask her to begin “duty dating” to desensitize her intellectual choice of men from “bad” to “good.”
    This entails flirting five minutes per day in a public place with men of all types. Bars are excluded because men under the influence of mind-altering drugs are yin-oriented and more of the “same old, same old..”

    Once per week, she must “present” herself passively (yin) to receive men’s attention. She can go to coffee bars, churches, dances, sports events, cultural events, educational events, and singles events. She flirts by looking into the eyes and smiling (yin), but NOT talking (yang) first. She speaks when spoken to; responds instead of acting first.

    Duty dating is uncomfortable for Sylvia because she must receive pleasurable attention without the “passion” of fast sex, drugs or booze to alleviate the anxiety of passivity (yin).
    Sylvia is more comfortable giving, protecting and cherishing him first when he flirts with her.
    Giving BACK(yin) is alien to her.
    She Gives to Get (yang), not Gets to Give BACK (yin) and therefore pleasure is not the motivator; addiction to oxytocin is.

    He only gives in the first dates or weeks.
    Then, he begins to use and abuse her helpless vulnerability due to her oxytocin addiction stimulated by him.
    This is manifested sexually, mentally, financially, socially and spiritually.
    It may take a long period of duty dating at least three men at the same time, until Sylvia is finally with a good man instead of a bad one.

    A good man finds and deflowers her with his loving ways.
    She may resist his advances at first, but eventually she will learn to feel the pleasure physically.
    Incremental desensitization is the therapeutic goal.
    I often advise Sylvia to not consummate the sexual relationship until engaged as a pragmatic behavior (which tells him, as warns her, that they are embarking on a sexual/social, monogamous, long-term marriage-bound, continuous relationship whose goal is mutual sexual and social pleasure, intellectual companionship, and an emotionally supporting family life with or without a career on the side.

  211.  #211Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    “but constantly using his spirituality and meditation as a distancing block doesn’t feel right… b/c your right how is this ever going to change…

    I don’t know if he has a plan… I’d have to say No he doesn’t…which might be why I’m feeling the need to know if marriage is on the table still… that makes sense…”

    Exactly…how will it ever change? And that is what *he* needs to figure out. Anything you do to try and walk him through it is going to feel, to him, like controlling or trying to take away his freedom or getting in the way of his spiritual practice….

    He needs a reason to need to figure it out. Which is…that you need to not be waiting around for him to figure it out any longer. You’re gonna circular date until he can figure it out.

  212.  #212Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    You sound like me. When I have a short speech prepared I am at my best. Keep it simple. But, when it turns into a “discussion” and I go off script I start using language that isn’t productive and then we get off track and I beat myself up over it later…

    You need a short and sweet speech about how you feel about the positive things in the relationship, but you need more–you need nights together consecutively more than twice a month, sleepovers–and then say at this point you want to keep your option open. Make it 100% about you. He may walk away without resolution in the moment. That is when you have to be strong. But, like all the books and coaches say, if he loves you, he will figure it out.

    <3 hugs!

  213.  #213Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 9:37 pm


    OMGosh… your right every time we sit and talk about ways to work it out for HIM… then it is about HIM…and not ME… and I need to focus on ME… and he is keeping the focus on him…. OMG…

    and your right… he might also see it as controlling… though for the most part he has been upset with me for not working it out with him and making a plan for it to work out for him…

    Yes, your right, I need to somehow get to circle dating until he figures it out… if he does…

    I can see now how I’m making it about him…. and so this is why I’m feeling the need to say, this is what works for me sleep wise… and he can either work it out within him to get ready or make it happen or we can just not sleep over anymore.. b/c your right I’ve been catering to his sleep needs…

    OMG… wow! I’m falling back into the same trap of allowing men to make it all about them… and bending over backwards… OMG…

    I’m so grateful! I see my pattern happening again… now I can stop it…

    He needs to work this out, not me…



  214.  #214Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 9:44 pm


    that so sounds like me…. I get off the script and then I’m cooked… I get off on emotions.. then I feel bad…

    Ok, I do need a speech.. a power speech… and I do need to make it about me…

    Oh dear, I’m not good at scripting yet… but @Elsie gave me a start… let’s see what I can come up with…

    and yes, I need to know if he loves me enough to work through this on his own… he might walk away… BUT I need to have my needs matter and I need to know if he is capable of working through this… and I need to stop bending over backwards for him….



  215.  #215Zara on July 11, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    The 2002 movie “Duty Dating” inspired by the book “Getting to I do” written by Dr Pat Allen and Sandra Harmon, of which the first hard cover was published in 1994.
    (The Love Doctor in the movie is Dr Pat Allen’s character).


  216.  #216Wildgeranium on July 11, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    “OMGosh… your right every time we sit and talk about ways to work it out for HIM… then it is about HIM…and not ME… and I need to focus on ME… and he is keeping the focus on him…. OMG…

    and your right… he might also see it as controlling… though for the most part he has been upset with me for not working it out with him and making a plan for it to work out for him…”

    Yep….its the classic “mommy issues”. He wants you to figure it out but if you did then he would feel smothered….UGH!

    If you do start setting some boundaries for yourself, I bet he will get cranky. You watch….

    🙂 Happy that you are figuring all this out for you!


  217.  #217sophie on July 11, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    I was recently dumped by the guy I was dating for the most part because we came from different economic backgrounds and present status. He constantly commented that he was not enough for me. I never knew what to say. In a way it was a battle for us as I paid for many of our activities but on an emotional level I so enjoyed his company more than anyone with five times his money. I tried to reassure him but I never could. He always felt inferior. Any suggestions to try to win him back or help with the next one? I’m attracted to simple kind men so to speak so I see this being a problem in the future. Do I have to hide my money and pretend to be poor? What can I say or do?

  218.  #218Lisa on July 11, 2013 at 10:06 pm


    Yep, I can see that now… since he has been talking to him mommy lots lately… a little too much really… which i was concerned about…

    Ok so he gets cranky when I set boundaries… then what? Besides keeping my boundaries.. and not bending over for him… what do I do… wait to see what he does with it?

    I think the answer is c’dating.. b/c I’m seeing so many red flags now… that I’m concerned.. and now I don’t even want marriage on the plate.. goodness.. mommy issues, self absorption issues, commitment issues….wow… might want to run from this one…


  219.  #219Zia on July 11, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    Elise – YOU decide what you want your cut off to be with regards to confirming a date 🙂

    For me, if it’s just a “oh we’ll catch up” vague plan or “lets go for lunch” but with no specific place or time, I won’t do anything – but if we’ve made plans for “lunch on friday” at a specific place I’ll send a quick text to confirm and ask that he let me know by a certain time so that I can go about my day.

  220.  #220Zia on July 11, 2013 at 11:00 pm

    Elise – and with the vague plans, I won’t send anything but will have my own cut off – so if he were to text me in the morning on the day there was some vague plan for lunch then I’d just respond that I have made other plans & you snooze you lose (but in a playful, fun way).

  221.  #221Syreena on July 12, 2013 at 3:15 am

    Yep I agree, you snooze you lose.

  222.  #222Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 3:48 am


    This may be a totally off-the-wall way of dealing with this situation, but if it were me, I would ignore the money topic completely, probably until I couldn’t take the moans any more, and then I’d say in a rather sweet, tongue-in-cheek, affectionate way “either you can let me pay for this, or we can sit at home and do nothing ;)”.

    But what would concern me more is, are you really ok with paying for everything, or most things? I ask out of concern, because few girls would be. But if you truly are fully ok and at peace with it, then I wouldn’t let anyone make me feel bad about it, not even him. Over time, if you are comfortable with it and do not focus on it, he may also. If he is the right man for you, I believe he may be inspired to want to do more financially as he feels safe and the relationship progresses. That is, if that was the only reason you are not together any more?

    Just my two cents.


  223.  #223Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 3:54 am

    I have decided to start a period (I don’t know how long it’s going to last) of focusing *only* on the positive in my life – what feels good, my blessings, the lovely things the people in my do, my good feelings towards them, away from any kind of blame or chastising myself or anyone else, and towards what feels better, in actions, thoughts and feelings. APPRECIATING the good things in my life and the lovely things that the people in it do, and letting the love in my heart expand.

    Not that the bad stuff doesn’t exist, but I’m choosing not to focus on it at all, for as long as this time lasts.

    Anyone who wants to join me, feel free 🙂

  224.  #224Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 3:55 am

    D and I are seeing each other on Sunday. I can’t wait!

  225.  #225Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 3:57 am

    re: my post in 223, I am experimenting to see how this feels after a certain period of time, and what happens.

  226.  #226Zia on July 12, 2013 at 4:43 am

    Indigo – 40 days is always a good timeframe to work with, as it’s known to be the amount of time it takes to change a pattern/habit/mindset 🙂

  227.  #227Syreena on July 12, 2013 at 5:19 am

    Have done some inner bonding boding work yes.

  228.  #228tryingtodogood on July 12, 2013 at 5:25 am

    Wow! This is consistent with what I’ve been reading lately and I’m thinking it is true for me too. I’ve been married to a toxic man for over 30 years and in the last few months have been concentrating on healing and growth and self acceptance. It has been a terribly painful process but I’m getting to the point of realizing that it’s so worth it. After all these years of having everything I said twisted, of being “punished” for raising grievances and so on, I’ve forgotten who I was and what I wanted from life. It’s been difficult to revisit those dreams and aspirations but now I am designing a life for myself that I want and I’m excited and hopeful again. I need do nothing to earn his love or deserve his love. I have just begun to show my real self and am delighted to say that people are responding in a wonderful way! My husband, not-so-much, but am no longer willing to “hide” myself or walk on eggshells. What will be, will be, but I will be me 🙂

  229.  #229tryingtodogood on July 12, 2013 at 5:26 am

    P.S. This was a great entry Rori!

  230.  #230Dominique on July 12, 2013 at 5:32 am

    Elsie – 182 – So you then get up, excuse yourself, and go to the restroom. With a big smile and all the confidence you cam muster in that moment. You CAN do this. 🙂


  231.  #231ArabianLove on July 12, 2013 at 5:35 am

    Thank you ladies for chiming in !
    I do believe I have anxious attachment style. However, my childhood was perfect. Anyways…

    Ugh this can’t be normal especially when a guy is supposed to be interested in you and even takes the time during the night when he thinks you’re not awake to cover you up with the sheets :)! He’s such a gentlemen … of course we have passed the always trying to impress each other stage. But he still does so much for me.

    Nevertheless, it has now been 4-5 days since we last saw each other and talked. I feel like lashing out and attacking him and telling him I will not accept this kind of behaviour because I did in my last relationship and he took advantage of it ! I am not ok with this at all!!!! I am not ok with not hearing from him and not having him acknowledge me and my feelings. Instead I’m supposed to act like everything is ok and its not bothering me because this way he will still feel good about himself and will still stick around. I feel he should know this is not ok with me so that it can stop !

    This has happened before as I mentioned and I went cuckoo… when he called me back twice the day later and he text I didnt answer him and so it took him another full day b4 he begged me to call him so he could explain. His explanation was not good enough for me quite frankly but when I met up with him on a date he finally told me the truth. It had nothing to do with me … which is why I am trying to remain calm with him … but it does not feel authentic at all. Because I feel panicked and very angry ! He does plenty of nice things for me yet all I see is how his not calling me is a big show of disrespect towards me as though everything else but me is important to him.
    He does have a lot going on but I refuse to make excuses for him. I dont know how to deal with this sort of situation.

    5 days ! 5 days !!!! You have got to be kidding me ! and he thinks he can just waltz back in ! Pfff

    Angry, Arabian 😛

  232.  #232Dominique on July 12, 2013 at 5:43 am

    Indigo – 223 – YAY YOU!!!

    Here’s more on this.



  233.  #233Dominique on July 12, 2013 at 5:44 am

  234.  #234Dominique on July 12, 2013 at 5:45 am

    tryingtodogood – You are awesome. 🙂


  235.  #235Hana on July 12, 2013 at 6:07 am

    🙁 I am so confused, I feel like I’m in a situation that I can’t understand, I need an objective opinion?

  236.  #236seahorse on July 12, 2013 at 6:44 am

    Zara- Thank you once again. From the top to the bottom THANK YOU:)

    …………………………… The Rise of the Black Madonna! I love that, sounds good to out loud and FEELS even better!

  237.  #237seahorse on July 12, 2013 at 6:56 am

    Zara!!! I just checked out Dr. Pat Allen’s web site………… I live close and am going to her evening class!!!! I feel deep in my soul a very………very big something……..it’s big and really feels………………. right. I feel excited and anticipation for this. Thank you again! Rise of the Black Madonna indeed!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO!!! I am full of vim and vigor and a very big helping of Zippity Do Dah Day!!!!! Love ya, Seahorse

    p.s. ………..and the beach is right there too!!!! Double win!!

  238.  #238Femininewoman on July 12, 2013 at 7:00 am

    Hana good to see you back.

  239.  #239Femininewoman on July 12, 2013 at 7:01 am


    But to delve a bit further into the realm of the Universal Laws, we rapidly see that the process of setting goals undermines the very intent of their acquisition.

    To set a goal, in and of itself, is to illuminate the “lack thereof.”

    So to say your “goal” is to drive a fancy sports car is in effect focusing on the lack of that tangible object in your life. And to further set your sights on daily activities that will bring about the acquisition of that fancy car is to continue to focus incessantly on that which you do not currently possess.

    In contrast, to “dream” of that fancy sports car in effect puts you in the driver’s seat (pun definitely intended)…

    As you feel the wind in your hair riding the highway of life – embracing the feelings and emotions you associate with being the owner of that prized possession.

    Feels totally different, doesn’t it?

    And in your “dreams,” as you feel the cool leather seats envelop your body, wrap your hands around the powerful steering wheel and shift into high gear, your reverie does not include pulling off to the side of the road to check off your ‘to do’ list for the day, does it?

    To the contrary, you are in the zone, at one with your dream – reveling in the moment.

  240.  #240LoveAlways on July 12, 2013 at 7:06 am

    Lovely picture of Rori!

  241.  #241Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 7:08 am

    @Lisa you said…He does work from home, he does get up early for the financial market and he could meditate before our dates… yes… he pretty much has a very laid back and low stress life… he doesn’t work many hours a day..his days are pretty much his own, but he says he does need to be rested in order to work the financial market, I have talked to him in depth about how WE could work it out… him meditate at my house when I’m putting my child to sleep, him meditating before he comes over for our dates, him maybe meditating more hours on the off days… and even sometimes going to his house after dinner for him to meditate and then us go dancing afterwards… I’ve been very flexible… and understanding …

    Ok. Sweetie. Seriously. This man doesnt work much. He has a HUGELY flexibile schedule. This is the schedule and lifestyle that everyone dreams of. If he cant get it together now…….to make time for you in that VAST SEA OF TIME that he has now…….at the beginning of a relationship……

    OK – I dont want to be mean or upset you. I’m just asking you – if he cant seem to find a way to make time for you now when its totally easy, what about if he had to get a full time job, or someone got sick, or you really needed help with your kids, etc.

    My ex could NOT manage time. Or responsibilities. I wish someone had shaken me sooner. Hes not a bad person. He is just horrible at realtionships.

    You trying to manage this sounds just like I was. It NEVER works. Its like an alcoholic – you cant MAKE them get better, they have to get better themselves. So no matter how many “plans”or “ideas” you come up with it wont matter. He WONT do them. I promise you that 100%.

    I know you like this guy a lot. But, after reading all of this, please take the time to think if you want to invest another year or two and find out what you already know right now. (hugs)

  242.  #242Femininewoman on July 12, 2013 at 7:09 am

    Elsie/Dominique – the bathroom trick is a strategy known by men. I would never encourage that when its time to pay. I would just be up front and say oops I feel shaky and silly bringing this up, I thought I was being treated because I was invited out, are we on the same page or did I miss something. I would use it as an opportunity to tell myself relax, relax rather than choosing to run away. Then speak. Being the anxious type the bathroom option could heighten the anxiety that he is likely to pick up on.

  243.  #243Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 7:10 am

    CollegeCD did not text last night. But he texted this morning very very early and said “LUNCH TODAY!!!!!!!!! Where do you want to meet for eats?” I texted back “Good morning. You choose. :)”

    And so it begins…..lol.

    In the meantime, I took a lot of time last night and this morning making myself feel really pretty – and thought even if I dont go on this lunch date, I look awesome. 🙂 LOL

    So – we’ll see what happens, but whatever does happen, boy I look CUTE today. 🙂 LOL>

  244.  #244Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 7:21 am

    @Feminine Woman – Yes, it seems “tricky” to me to do that…….LOL.

    Well, it would be hard to say all of that when the waiter is just STANDING there asking if we want separate checks. LOL.

    I think I’ll just look and say…..”This is awkward.” If he STILL doesnt say anything, then ugh. I dont know what I”ll do. I’m a mess in situations like that. I dont like the awkwardness and I do whatever I can to fill it up. LOL

  245.  #245prplpsn28 on July 12, 2013 at 8:18 am

    Feel like I’ve come to a fork in the road with H. Don’t know what to do. Ugh! And I’ve been leaning WAY back because of it. I’m sure he feels it. Blah!

  246.  #246April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 8:24 am

    Zara, phew! And whao…

    That Pat Allen stuff twizzled my brain. And totally intrigued my intuition.

    I was a ‘shovel’ early on in my relationship. Giving, massaging, showing how great I was.
    He responded, lapping it up.

    Since finding Rori, it has changed. I no longer give first. Often there is this huge void, which leaves me feeling starving for cherishment.

    If I give first, he lights up.

  247.  #247April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 8:32 am


    I just wrote you a longish post and it disappeared in cyberspace, so I feel grizzly about that.

    Do you remember a few threads back – a siren was posting about your very dilemma, of being nervous about who is paying.

    If I remember rightly, she asked up front, using feeling messages – something like “I was wondering if we are going out on a date, or just buddies. Dating with you would feel fun. It would feel so good to be treated lke a lady”.

    Other sirens were posting feeling messages such as “It doesn’t feel feminine to pay”

    It would feel authentic to me, to say “I don’t feel feminine if I have to handle money on a date.” or “It feels unromantic, like a business lunch, if I am handling money”.

  248.  #248April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 8:36 am

    Thank you for the hugs and love. I feel all sparkly inside receiving them.
    ((((((Lisa)))))) Hugs and love to you too.

  249.  #249April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 8:37 am


    In Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, there is a great chapter on why men stay away and what to say to them when they come back.

  250.  #250Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 8:50 am


    5 days is nothing. Men can show up weeks later and tell you they are in love.

    They need space away to sort out their emotions and feelings.

    Men need us to not need them. To be OK on our own.

    We don’t have to like it. But we do need to respect it.

    Men are not women. They don’t do or think like us.

    The worst thing you can do right now , well the 2 worst things, is to contact him or be angry when he finally contact you.

    You said yourself that this has already happened between you and him. So he is giving you another chance.

    Take all the emotions you are feeling, and making it about him and use those to learn about yourself. “It’s never about him”…..


  251.  #251Mercedes on July 12, 2013 at 8:50 am

    Elsie: I also wrote you a comment that got lost. It went something like this:

    I like the words “This feels awkward” with a smile. If it were me, after that lunch (or right after the waiter walks away), I would bring it up again. Something like “I really hate the awkward silence when the check comes. For me personally, I’m very used to men paying when they ask me out and it feels really good to be treated. What are your thoughts on it?” And see what he says.

    Much Love,

  252.  #252Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 8:52 am

    Thanks Zia 🙂 40 days sounds good, and it’s symbolic.

  253.  #253Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 8:55 am

    Elsie 119

    I just wanted to say, make sure your tears are the sad kind. I’ve realized sometimes we label our tears as sad because, well, we must be sad if we’re crying, right? I think sometimes our inner soul cries in relief, and absolute love for us, when we make a decision that moves us forward, and we call it sad, but maybe it is something else.

  254.  #254Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 8:56 am

    Well, week one of my “not even touching the oars” experiment was a colossal failure… LOL

    Ok, it wasn’t that bad…. I’m not rowing.

    Anyway, Rori’s newsletter today reminded me exactly why and how I need to do this. I know it works with CW when I use her reconnect tools.

    CW is driving down today and will be here for 4-5 days so I can practice not picking up the oars in person…

    Rori Raye Dance Position!!!!

  255.  #255Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 8:59 am

    Wild Geranium 250

    I need to read your post over and over again until it sinks in. D was loving on Wednesday night and has said we can see each other on Sunday night, and I feel a gentle vibe from him, but he has been very scarce with contact yesterday and today, especially after the “painful” comment. I need to remember that he needs time to sort out his feelings.

  256.  #256April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 9:02 am

    I’m happy in myself, and I’m unhappy in my relationship.

    What is that saying to me????

  257.  #257Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 9:03 am


    This is so true. There are happy tears and sad tears. But sometimes what we think are sad tears are actually more like tears of relief or release…

    I just realized… It’s like “the soup” of emotions forces its way out of us if we are not expressing it naturally with feeling messages as the feelings arise. It comes out in tears.

  258.  #258April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 9:05 am

    I’m addicted to Daddy’s indifference?

    Please, can anyone give tips on how to heal this?

  259.  #259Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 9:05 am

    @April Rose – I totally hate it when I write a huge long thing and the internet eats it up….lol

    All of things sound good – but I cant just cant see myself saying it – It sounds weird and artificial to me.

    I wish I could think of something that infused a bit of humor into it – “This feels awkward” might be ok.

    Since this is still a lunch, during work hours, I feel like its borderline. He did ask me out, but its a lunch during work hours, so its just weird. Now if he took me out at night and didnt pay, it would be OVER. I dont like that at ALL. Zero. Its just here we were just friends 20 years ago…..so its this vague weird area….LOL.

  260.  #260Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 9:07 am

    April Rose 247

    I love your feeling message 🙂

  261.  #261April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 9:07 am


    What about Mercedes suggestions?

  262.  #262Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 9:08 am

    Dominique, thank you.

    I re-visit your articles often.

    I swore to myself that if D and I get into a relationship, I will get coaching from you.

  263.  #263April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 9:11 am

    Thanks Indigo

    I would like to join you for a period of *appreciating the positive*


  264.  #264Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 9:11 am


    Sometimes when I’ve felt unsure how I would feel about the whole paying thing beforehand, I’ve known afterwards.

    So it would be no big deal if you did what felt ok to you at the time, and then saw how *that* felt afterwards. Then you would know for certain how you felt about it, and could script something based on your feelings.

  265.  #265April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 9:13 am

    Positive things about being with a man who waits for me to initiate:

    I get to feel how weird and awkward and uncomfortable it is, and I get triggered to pain and anger and I get to love myself anyway.

    I have a kind of freedom ?? That feels weird to write.

  266.  #266Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 9:13 am

    Thanks Indigo 🙂

    After reading Alison Armstrong I really GOT how unfair it is of us women to get angry or anxious when men are just being men. It really isn’t fair.

    We sabotage the situation so often. When we really just don’t need to DO anything for their love and adoration. Except let them feel it and express it on their own time schedule. If we don’t like the schedule, then we are free to move on.

    When we get anxious and needy men feel like we are more interested in what they represent, not in them as people. And that makes them not want to commit and not want to be vulnerable.


  267.  #267April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 9:15 am

    Indigo 264,

    Yeah, totally. Like a feeling message about what just happened. Like “I feel strange and gnarly and awkward about what just happened. I’m not even sure why. I just got a swirly butterfly feeling in my belly”.

  268.  #268seahorse on July 12, 2013 at 9:17 am

    Elsie- It was Andrea who wrote that about her date and the check coming. She had said she didn’t do anything and actually said it got to the point where they were down to the last swallow in their water glasses before the subject was broached. It was the last thread, I believe. It is was a great post by her.

    Thanks Andrea!

  269.  #269Liquid Light on July 12, 2013 at 9:20 am

    Indigo, I’m excited for you re. your date on Sunday! 🙂

  270.  #270Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 9:21 am


    April rose-

    Yes- you need to talk to the little girl inside you who experienced Daddy’s indifference. She needs to know she is loved and you will never leave her. As long as she is in charge she’ll keep picking men with the indifferent quality, hoping that this time it will be different. She needs to stop looking for men to be the “perfect” parent. Instead you, April Rose, get to be her perfect parent. You are the only one who can be. Give her your love and attention but let her know that you are now in charge.


  271.  #271seahorse on July 12, 2013 at 9:21 am

    265 April Rose- That felt good to read. Feels open and ……….. very loving to you. Small and yet so very big:)

  272.  #272Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 9:37 am

    This morning I noticed anger about something silly, had nothing to do with men or dating. I got present with it and noticed it’s just a feeling … it feels the same as anger about anything else. It’s always coming from a thought that probably isn’t even true. This morning I didn’t need to go down the whole staircase of anger, just noticed it and said hello anger and then let it morph into something that felt better.

    I signed up a client that I met on my Costa Rica trip. This gets me even more excited about Bali. Such a fabulous way to meet people and let the Universe bring the right clients to me.

    I noticed feeling more empowered for the first time in another situation involving a man. Which happened paradoxically by not focusing on men or dating at all. I’m gonna keep going with this …

  273.  #273elsie on July 12, 2013 at 9:39 am

    He is 10 min late….have i ever mentioned i hate that? Ugh

  274.  #274seahorse on July 12, 2013 at 9:40 am

    Wildgeranium- I feel so great reading you. I want to say thank you for your voice here……………. THANK YOU:) I had a geranium that was a scented one and it was a ‘Apple’ scented geranium. It was a favorite of mine, not just for it’s scent,which was so light and sweet yet clean smelling, it was the neatest plant…………………. You could break off a trailing bit and pop it right into the soil and in a couple of days new growth and before long a whole new happy plant. And thank you for the happy memory;)

  275.  #275Lisa on July 12, 2013 at 9:47 am

    @ Elsie first thanks for you last post to me… I hear you! I’m totally looking at that also…

    I mean it is my choice to have the busy life I have with being a mom and having a home to care for. And he has worked hard to have a leisure life… and I also feel that if a relationship is to develop that, there needs to be a rubber effect… meaning he would have to bounce over to me some with time and not be so rigid about his schedule. When mine isn’t so leisurely…

    On the subject of checks and paying… I look for their hand movements and eye movements ( I learned that from a dating coach). I sit there like I’m a queen and that there is no other option but for him to pay… the awkward silence doesn’t bother me b/c I’m not paying… and mostly this has worked for me. I learned to calm myself and ask myself what is the worst that could happen… and then I just allow the fear to pass through me…

    If a guy moves his hand towards the tab or check he wants to pay… OH how funny I had one man actually put the check towards the edge of the table so I could see it… I didn’t look of course and started looking at people and the street etc… then I finished our conversation and he paid…

    Really that is about the only time and there are times when I knew he would pay and I got my wallet out and then he would say OH please allow me to treat you, and I’d say yes, thank you! so I kind of would use my intuition about it…

    If a man expects to go dutch, then he needs to tell me… I even said that to “M” the other night when he said what food do you have for dinner if I bring the meat. I said I don’t have any, then I looked and I did have lettuce… I said though if I’m going to need to contribute to dinner at home, I need to know in advance so I can shop. Then I said, I don’t really have anything I’ll have to go shop…. He called me back and ask me to go to dinner out… that was nice…

    Sorry for the long post…oops…


  276.  #276April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 9:50 am


    Thanking you through sobs that feel wrenched from deep within my body.

  277.  #277Liquid Light on July 12, 2013 at 10:11 am

    263 April Rose, Indigo: Ditto! Here’s to focusing on the positive! Thanks for the reminder, ladies! Let’s do it! 🙂

  278.  #278Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 10:31 am

    #274 thank you Seahorse. This is a wonderful place 🙂

    #276 April Rose –big love to you…..The big sobs are good for us. They are truly cleansing.

    All of this is a process of letting go of what we are clinging to in the moment….

  279.  #279Dominique on July 12, 2013 at 11:08 am

    Elsie – 244 – I don;t agree about going to the restroom, yet I do think you will have to say something eventually, just not here as the first one to speak. You may have to summon all you have to quell the anxiety and hugely uncomfortable feelings. And I want you to continue to sit there, smiling sweetly, openly.

    When and if he says anything to you, you state simply that you feel enormously uncomfortable/embarrassed/weird/maybe even a little angry, yet you don’t want to pay for dates.

    You could add that you are a little old-fashioned around this.

    No – what do you thinks or what can we do here. No more than this is more than plenty to say. If he can;t handle this, then oh well. It’s not your job to look after his feelings.


  280.  #280Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 11:45 am

    Wooo hoo!!!!!

    Went on my date, he was a bit late, but it ended up ok. He and I ended up having lunch for an hour and a half and it was fantastic. So fun. REALLY fun. We got into a lot about our lives, etc. Its like no time has passed for us.

    He did ask if I had dated other people and I said yes. He started to say something about online dating, and I didnt know if he was telling me I should do that or not – it was a bit awkward.

    So – the check comes and this time the waitress just puts it on the table. Fantastic. because I’M NOT EVER REACHING FOR IT. LOL!!!

    He of course reached for it and paid. I got to say thank you at the end and it was very nice. He said that we should meet again soon, etc. So we’ll see.

    Last time he texted me and said thank you.

    I feel like because he paid this time, and I want to tell him that I apprecaite that and encourage that….I want to text him later today and say thank you again. 🙂

  281.  #281ArabianLove on July 12, 2013 at 11:50 am

    Thank you again for your advice ladies and a special thanks goes out to you Wildgeraniums 🙂 !

    I will let him take the lead.

    and see what he does and what happens 🙂 . Ive been pushing i believe … Anyways i was very happy to read what you wrote and it touched me immensely.

    Thank you for empowering me!

  282.  #282Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 11:56 am

    Wow! Thank you 🙂 good luck Arabian!

  283.  #283Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Thank you ladies. I feel like I am more of a siren today than I have been in a long time. Its all due to Mercedes, Dominique, and ALL of you – thank you.

    By the way – Operation No Contact (hereinafter known as “ONC”) is working wonderfully for me. I have not said one word to him today. Go me.

  284.  #284Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    That feels more fun, Elsie 🙂

  285.  #285Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    “He started to say something about online dating, and I didnt know if he was telling me I should do that or not – it was a bit awkward.” … Maybe trying to assess his competition? 🙂

    Don’t text him!!!!!!! That is what women do to each other after a nice lunch. He’ll just wonder why you are saying it again. It’ll feel like chasing to him. Stop leaning forward. Don’t utter another single solitary peep via any communication device to him.

    You need do nothing.

    Wait and see what he does. The suspense *will not* kill you.


  286.  #286Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    By the way – Operation No Contact (hereinafter known as “ONC”) is working wonderfully for me. I have not said one word to him today. Go me.

    ” one day at a time ” LOL right?

    I need to do my operation let go of the oars ODAAT too- the whole 40/90 day thing is just tripping me up…..duh

  287.  #287Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    When I was in Costa Rica, all my cash got stolen out of the spa locker. I stood up for myself and it worked out fine but in the meantime I was at the pool bar. A man next to me asked how my day was going so I was still in shock and told him about the situation. He only stayed a few minutes and left the area.

    When I went to pay my bill, the bartender told me that man had already paid my bill. That kind of giving from a man feels great. He didn’t pay it to get sex from me, as he wasn’t ever going to see me again. He paid it because he wanted to brighten up my day. That felt wonderful 🙂

  288.  #288Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    congrats WildGeranium 🙂

  289.  #289Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    April Rose 263 & Liquid Light 277

    Yay! I feel thrilled. We can encourage each other 🙂

    Because for sure we are going to get tested on this.

  290.  #290Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    Red Alert LOL…..GS contacted me and wanted to “just chit chat and talk because he wasnt busy.” I just said thank you but I have a lot of work to get done and got off the phone.

    Score. Go me. Operation No Contact is so far a success. I feel great.

  291.  #291Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    April Rose 265

    Yes, these were the sorts of thoughts I was experimenting with too… what is the lesson in this? how can I feel better? how can I show my own love to myself through this?

  292.  #292Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Yay, congrats Elsie 🙂 Everyone sounds so strong today 🙂

  293.  #293Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Wild Geranium 266

    You are very right.

  294.  #294Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    @ Erika – Thanks. Although I’m just glad I didnt have to deal with the check issue LOL!!!!!!

  295.  #295Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    April Rose 267

    Yes! That is what I meant. I like to keep experimenting a little bit when I’m unsure, until I *know* what I feel.

  296.  #296Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Liquid Light 269

    ah thank you 🙂 I hope Sunday comes soon.

  297.  #297April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    He just likes having me around.

    That is how it seems.

    He is in his room now, door closed, eating his dinner and watching telly. It’s Friday evening.

    I got a hug earlier. So I suppose I should be thankful. (That was a sarcastic remark).

    I feel choked and sick in my heart.

  298.  #298April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    I want to formulate a plan, with my masculine energy, to liberate my girl energy from this desperate half-dead situation.

  299.  #299Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    @April Rose. I was also in a place where I was doing what a man liked (having me around).

    What do YOU want to do tonight? I dont know where you live – but can you go do something? Do you HAVE to stay there?

  300.  #300April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    Any help, tips, feelings experience will be much appreciated.

  301.  #301April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    Thanks Elsie,

    It’s quite late now, nearly 9pm, otherwise I would have gone to the pictures or for a walk in the park. I haven’t been out today 🙁

  302.  #302Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    April Rose

    “desperate half-dead situation”

    is there some part of you, however small, that feels this way about yourself? How can you get back to the parts of yourself that make you feel joyful and alive?


  303.  #303Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    Elsie, it kinda feels like you changed your own energy around the situation and so you created something new. A waitress responded to the energy and nobody expected you to pay. Feels more fun 🙂

    I took a luxurious hot shower a little while ago and washed my hair. I don’t wash it every day because it’s so long. Now I can feel the cleanness of my scalp, and it’s still a little wet. The window is cracked open for fresh air, and I can feel the freshness of the breeze on the back of my neck and all the way up my scalp to my ponytail. This feels very good and very alive 🙂 My apartment also feels clean and fresh, and I’m wondering what I can do today that will feel good …

  304.  #304April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    Oh, Indigo,
    I felt those joyful parts when he was away. I so wanted to share them when he returned. I did my best. I went first, he responded.
    Then I messed up. I had PMS and started to get fussy about the way he was doing things, half in jest. It pushed him away. That was days ago.

    Yes, I do feel that way about myself (half-dead) in his company.

  305.  #305Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    April Rose

    Remember what we said about focusing on the positive? No chastising of self allowed. You cannot mess up <3

    Those joyful, alive feelings are still in you, regardless of him, even if you may not think so.

  306.  #306Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    @April – 9pm on a Friday night is EARLY! 🙂 Where do you live?

  307.  #307Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    @April Rose – seriously GO somewhere. A coffee shop, a bar and get one beer, movies are on at 10pm, get out get out get out of that stale stagnant house!!!

  308.  #308Sassy on July 12, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    April Rose,

    I feel curious, were you ever happy with him when you were in the masculine and he in the feminine? Do you feel that wasn’t working for you and your relationship?

  309.  #309April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    Yeah Indigo,

    My plan to make a plan had me feeling positive.

    What makes me feel joyful? Cuddling myself. Listening to Rori’s programs. Being in nature.
    What makes me feel alive? Dancing, zumba, singing, cycling, laughing (my favourite)

  310.  #310April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Elsie, I love you!

    “@April Rose – seriously GO somewhere. A coffee shop, a bar and get one beer, movies are on at 10pm, get out get out get out of that stale stagnant house!!!”

    Can I come and live next door to you where you live? Sounds great there.

    I’m in a farming county in a forgotten corner of the UK. Only things still open around here are the potato fields, oh and a Chinese restaurant.
    You are spot on about stale stagnant house – you have no idea. The building I live in is a converted prison. 150 years ago people used to be routinely sentenced to hang or get deported to Australia from here.

  311.  #311Dominique on July 12, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    Elsie – 280 – You don’t really need to say thank you again, yet if you feel compelled, do so, and say it felt good spending time with him. Please no mention of the tab/money.


  312.  #312April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 1:23 pm


    I did okay for a year or so playing the masculine role (my grandma was my main role model! She took charge of everything).

    I listened to Dr Pat Allen today and she said it makes women ill when its that way round, and I choose to believe her.

    She says a man’s role is to “give, protect, cherish”.

    Just now WM’s role seems to be “begrudge, withdraw, wait”.

    Another thing that showed up in our Carol Allen report is that in our particular combination, the woman is more bonded to the man. It can make it hard to walk away, because it makes her feel like he is ‘the one’.


  313.  #313Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    @Dominique – OHHH!!! i LOVE THAT. I was trying to think what to say. I love that it felt good spending time with him. You are a word genius. 🙂 Put that on your resume.

    @April Rose – the country of the UK is beautiful. I love the Cotswolds, I love up north too. I’m a fan. 🙂 Sounds lovely and quiet. Well, until you got to the part about the prison and people dying. LOL – not so lovely then. 🙂 Ok – then go to the stinkin’ Chinese restaurant and get some crab rangoon and fortune cookies. Come on – there isnt one bar open in a farming community? 🙂

    And yes, come live next door – actually the people next door to us are selling their house – come on. 🙂

  314.  #314Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Wow. I had a lot of happy faces in the last post. haha. One more for good measure. 🙂

  315.  #315April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Dr Pat Allen, in her video 6 1/2 Secrets of Love (on youtube) says

    “Giving too much, protecting too much, and cherishing too much are very dangerous invitations to distress, to cortisol, and they’re invitations to illness. Happy women are women who pay attention to appreciating what they get, and saying no to what they don’t want. They don’t get into rebuilding people or making other people’s lives work at their expense”

  316.  #316Indigo on July 12, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    April Rose,

    When I lived on a farm, I would go outside (yes, in the middle of the night) and sing to the horses. Or I would walk through the trees or sit in the moonlight, or stare out into the expanse of nature until I felt myself again. Those things you mentioned sound wonderful. I know you will find your joy again, and when you do, you will be clearer on WM.


  317.  #317April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    I love how bouncy your energy feels.
    Makes me want to do happy faces too 🙂 🙂 🙂

  318.  #318Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    April Rose – I’m TOTALLY bouncy today.

    I have my boundaries in place with GS. He doesnt know that he is part of Operation No contact, but I”m sure he already feels it – today is the first day, and after this, and the whole weekend, and probably about Tuesday he will start to feel feel it…..its ok – its not my deal. Its HIS deal we are where we are.

    Plus, I had a great lunch date with cutest. guy. ever. Dang, he is cute. And SOOOO funny. Its so easy with him, just funny and fun and easy. Loved it. He asked at the end – so do you want to go? (meaning lets walk outside) and I just smiled and looked down and said no……I’d rather stay here and talk. 🙂 he was beaming, and then we had to go because we both had spent way too long on our lunch hour, but it was so fun. And the hug at the end….yummy.

    I may actually have ANOTHER date tonight – just meeting at a bar for a couple of drinks.

    Hey – this is all Mercedes’ fault. She told me to circular date. LOL.

  319.  #319Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    @April Rose – I am now reading all your posts in a British accent by the way. 🙂

  320.  #320Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    “@April Rose – I am now reading all your posts in a British accent by the way.”


    That would be my advice, April Rose, to get really dolled up and go out,even if its just to the grocery store (HE doesn’t need to know where you are going)…. I’m so sorry you can’t do that 🙁

  321.  #321Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    @April Rose – I hope you are NOT reading this. I hope you are at that ridiculous Chinese restaurant OR shopping in high heels as Wildgeranium just stated. 🙂 GOOOOO!!!!!

  322.  #322Veronica on July 12, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    I’m still finding myself thinking about BM but it’s shifting a bit. I notice now that I can actually feel the difference when I’m thinking about him and when I’m not. When I do think about him I’m hardly present, I’m feeble and when I don’t there’s this smidgen of vitality. I don’t know where that’s going but I’m okay with not knowing for now.

    And it feels like too much work to even be with him, even if I had decided to be with him, it feels like an application process. no. I notice that feeling but I don’t really want to go there, knowing is enough.

    And then as I was walking this really good looking guy was walking out the store and looking at me. I’m not 100% sure it happened, I was a bit taken aback, but I felt NOTICED and it felt really good. I still don’t have the guts to smile but its okay, that lingering energy of him noticing me was enough. It felt as though he would have hung around for a while, but this is all feeling that I’m doing and so I’m not sure if it’s actually happening. I’m just really struck by the feeling.

    Just walking around with this attentiveness is intriguing – I feel as though I’m more aware of other people’s energy (not in any psychic way, just like I’ve turned myself towards that interest) but now also my own. And then I spent an hour or two looking at books and it felt good to lose myself in that for a while.

  323.  #323Femininewoman on July 12, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    April Rose – had PMS and started to get fussy about the way he was doing things, half in jest. It pushed him away.

    April Rose I have felt really put off by your humor, more than once.

    If that is the point where you believe things got stuck between you and him maybe bringing it up and talking about it might release the energy between you two. Who knows, maybe there is something about your sense of humor that he doesn’t like but is not saying?

  324.  #324Shar Lean Way Back on July 12, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Malene, Yes definantely block his number. I did that with my now husband. It was very powerful for me and had nothing to do with him at all. Then I wasn’t constantly checking my phone and email to see if he was calling etc. He did try and when I didn’t respond he emailed my sister to see if I was “o.k.” 🙂 But to get that result was not what I was after and I would not do it expecting he will change. I was ready to move on !

  325.  #325Shar Lean Way Back on July 12, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Malene, you can have his number BLOCKED..I haven’t read all the comments so not sure if you have done that or not. But you call your service provider and ask them to block the number. They will either tell you how or do it themselves. I can’t remember exactly..

  326.  #326Sophie on July 12, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    April Rose – I’m with you after 9pm and I’m like go out? now?! And I live in the city! Maybe it’s an English thing 🙂 I lived in Argentina once and they were all going out when I was going to bed 🙂 Though going out and looking at the stars sounds lovely – I love the silence and the stillness of the countryside.

    I am trying to do the positive thing Indigo – today has been a day of noticing that I’m not very good at negotiations and very good at arguing for my limitations eg are you sure you want to pay that for my dress on ebay it has the minutest of stains? i’m sure you may be able to get a better employee than me I understand if you do? i’m sure you don’t want to be my boyfriend…

    I feel happy to recognise that I’m doing it – I went onto photo editor and designed lots of photos of me with positive affirmations over my head – it felt good

    Any one else got any good tips for the old self confidence thing?

    Also, anyone know how I can change my photo on here? it is somewhat lacking in anonymity 🙂

  327.  #327Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    Taking my own advice.

    My CD for tonight (not CollegeCD) just cancelled on me.

    No biggie – water on a ducks back, baby!!!

    I’m off to the bar (thats “pub” for you April Rose) with a friend in one hour.

    Sweet. I’ll circular date my damn self. 🙂 LOL.

    How many drinks do you think I can get boys at the bar to buy me? LOL

  328.  #328Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    I”m not wasting this cute outfit for nothing. 🙂 LOL

    Man, I feel more like myself today than I have in a long time. Operation No Contact is a raging success (on day one…..LOL.)

  329.  #329Dominique on July 12, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Sophie – You can only do so by deleting your photo altogether from showing up anywhere. If you change your gravatar to something which isn’t a photo of you, this will show up everywhere instead of your photo, including here.


  330.  #330Mercedes on July 12, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Sophie/Dominique: It could also work if you create a different email address to use on this site (like just a basic free hotmail address or yahoo, etc) and don’t create a gravatar profile associated with that email address. Then, you can post here using the new email (with no gravatar) and you will just have the basic flower instead of your photo.

    Or…you can take that new email and associate it with a gravatar account but use a picture you like that isn’t of you.

    Much Love,

  331.  #331Sophie on July 12, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Thanks Dominique – I thought that might be the case – ok I shall go back to being an anonymous rose 🙂

  332.  #332April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    Okay ladies, I did it. I went out for a walk. I passed the pubs where the drunk men were. At the other end of this very small town there is a kebab shop. I went in and ordered chips (that’s “fries” to you Elsie), and my lovely Turkish friend was working in there. We had a lovely chat and it felt so sweet to see her. I asked her if she had a man, and her face lit up “no, I’m free!” she said.

    When I got back I sat and ate my chips and had a glass of coke. Some were leftover so I knocked on WM’s door and offered them to him. He didn’t want them!

    FW, my sense of humour to me feels devilish and delightful and I love it so much. Other people that can see me in it and ‘get’ me are what I’d call a good match. Maybe you and I just ain’t compatible, honey.

  333.  #333Sophie on July 12, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Ah Mercedes yes! That’s an idea! – ok I shall make that a project – thank you (both) xx

  334.  #334Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    “I notice now that I can actually feel the difference when I’m thinking about him and when I’m not. When I do think about him I’m hardly present, I’m feeble and when I don’t there’s this smidgen of vitality.”

    Veronica, yes! Resonates with me 🙂 Feeble … what a yucky feeling!

    So I actually think the “bad” giving is the same in men and women, and I’ve seen plenty of men do it including creepy guy.

    “Bad” giving is when we have no agreement with the other person and we are “giving to get.” It could be giving energy, which for me ends up feeling “feeble” like Veronica says. Or it could be “giving” anything else. It’s not real giving. Because it’s trying to get something. And men do it too. When they do it, it feels yucky just like when we do it.

    Real giving is giving for yourself. This is when I’m on FB and I don’t really have to go out of my way and help someone expecting nothing in return. It feels good in the moment, I don’t resent it later, and in fact I probably forget about it a few minutes later. Real giving is what the guy did for me in Costa Rica. I’m sure it felt good to him to brighten someone’s day with no expectation of anything back, and it felt good to both of us.

    I just think most of the time when we are “bad” giving, we are not necessarily being honest with ourselves about our motivations. Or at least I’ll speak for myself. My original blog was real giving at the beginning because I was having fun with it and doing it for me. It was only later in the year when it started to feel like “work” without enough return, then I had to be honest with myself and realign everything so I could receive what I wanted with explicit agreements and expectations instead of “giving to get.”

    Not sure if that makes sense, the clarity feels good to me though 🙂

  335.  #335April Rose on July 12, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Okay ladies, I did it. I went out for a walk. I passed the pubs where the drunk men were. At the other end of this very small town there is a kebab shop. I went in and ordered chips (that’s “fries” to you Elsie), and my lovely Turkish friend was working in there. We had a lovely chat and it felt so sweet to see her. I asked her if she had a man, and her face lit up “no, I’m free!” she said.

    When I got back I sat and ate my chips and had a glass of coke. Some were leftover so I knocked on WM’s door and offered them to him. He didn’t want them!

    FW, my sense of humour to me feels mischievous and delightful and I love it so much. Other people that can see me in it and ‘get’ me are what I’d call a good match. Maybe you and I just ain’t compatible.

  336.  #336MovingMagic on July 12, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    I love a good sense of humor. It’s kind of a must in my book. 😉

  337.  #337Sophie on July 12, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    mmmm just realised my ‘overcompensating’ in all areas – work; negotiating money etc is major leaning forward – major efforting – i seriously need to practice the leaning back in those areas of my life too – just sitting with it and breathing when it feels so uncomfortable I might burst – i can more or less manage the leaning back with men now and that took a lot of breathing so if i apply some conscious effort i can shift it in these areas too

    I am the prize
    I am the prize
    I am the prize

    I havent been acting like the prize I have been acting like I’ll take crumbs all over the place – Like I’m a scared little girl who just wants people to like me; like I’m not talented and you don’t have to pay me much; like (as I’ve said) before everyone’s needs and wants and opinions are more important than mine

    Wow! I feel exhilaration for the day when I finally feel my worth in my bones and I act from that place

    Today’s Louise Hay affirmation was “I am my favourite person” i’m going to put that on a picture too 🙂 and i’m going to make an i am the prize picture

  338.  #338ArabianLove on July 12, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    He called !

    I didnt answer though … Im still feeling angry !
    I guess ill wait until he calls again…

  339.  #339Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 3:35 pm


    Yay!!!!! And, good for you. I’ve done that too. Not answered when I knew my reaction would not be ideal. His imagination is probably spinning now….

    Just a thought…. He may call you and just test the water…he may not ask to see you right away. Of course, I have no idea what he will say or do. But, that scenario has happened to me before.

    The important thing is that you keep your vibe warm and friendly and don’t lean forward in terms of asking for or suggesting anything. Just receive what he gives even if its just a short conversation to see how you are.

    Good for you in not answering when you were still mad 🙂


  340.  #340Liquid Light on July 12, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    I’m looking cute today – I am having a good hair day and I feel like I look sexy.

    I could actually imagine myself flirting with someone and I haven’t felt like that in months!

    OK, those were a few positives, ladies..what do you think? How am I doing? Hahaha!! 🙂

  341.  #341ArabianLove on July 12, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    🙂 thank you wildgeranium!

    Would leaning forward consist also of calling him back ?

  342.  #342Wildgeranium on July 12, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    If he left a message and said the words to “call him”, then call him.

    If he just left a message but did *not* say ” call me ” don’t call.

    If he didnt leave a message don’t call him.


  343.  #343prplpsn28 on July 12, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    Elsie 306 – 8:30/9:00 is usually about the time I’m headed out on Friday and Saturday nights. That seems to be when all the action starts. More people to cd with.

    Something that’s come up lately…open to any thoughts. Lately H has been asking me things like “Where’d ya go?” “What happened to ya?” and when I say I’ve been busy he then says “So what’s kept you so busy?”. BUT…when we women pose these questions to them, then it’s considered being clingy and needy. Why?

  344.  #344Zia on July 12, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Elise 290: YAY you!!!

  345.  #345Zia on July 12, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Hana: what’s up?

  346.  #346janie baby on July 12, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    Hello! Been keeping up with the blog but in the past only have posted during a crisis but i felt like checking in and saying hi instead of lurking haha.

    things are a little better. Even though my guy and I are taking space things feel better because I’m practicing releasing expectations and that’s when he comes forward.

    I’ve also been circular dating.. Not actually DATING but just having fun with friends, and then ok this is an interesting situation. I guess I’m kind of naive with men I dont’ have much experience because I’ve only been with a few boys always around my age.

    A few weeks ago my girls and I went out to a bar and I got along with this man who is 18 years older than me (41) from Ireland. He was buying us drinks and told us he owned the restaurant/bar next door so he invited us to eat dinner for free which was super sweet. And had been texting me to hang out ever since. I finally met up with him for lunch yesterday because I really got along well with him but I wasn’t thinking of it as a romantic thing. I just want to meet new friends in the city and I love challenging myself and meeting new people when I’m nervous. I felt awkward as soon as I got there though because ti was a nice place and I even offered to pay because I wanted to keep the “friend” vibe. Then at the end of lunch when started asking me if we could date I had to explain to him that I’m in a complicated situation with someone but it’s not resolved so I don’t want to have anything romantic with anyone else. I said I’d love to be friends and I’m serious. I lived in Europe last year for a year and I LOOVE European people and making new friends. And he said he understands and that’s ok but then he’s texting me “xxxx when can I see you again?” and I feel weird about leading someone on even though I was very upfront…I don’t know if that’s guilt that I’m conditioned to feel or if it’s okay. What do you guys think?

    Also my boy came over last night and I was gonna tell him about my day and that I had lunch with a new friend but I didn’t because I was tired and I had a feeling he would be jealous…IF we were committed and serious again I would say something but I didn’t know if there was a point if I wasn’t cheating, just friends with a new man.

    Is this part of circular dating? I dont know exactly. it was very fun yesterday and i don’t feel like i did anything wrong as i was upfront with this guy and even offered to pay cause i didn’t want the wrong vibe sent out.

  347.  #347Erika Awakening on July 12, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    Wow something really wild is happening for me … a “sleeper” effect I think from all these hundreds of videos I recorded that haven’t been released …

    I’m finding myself in these pretty passionate discussions and I’m expressing myself passionately, yet I’m no longer feeling any need to “shut out” the other person’s perspective. I’m not even thinking they are “wrong.” I’m feeling very both/and at a deep and authentic level. This feels quite fascinating …

  348.  #348Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 7:56 pm

    Totally went to the pub and got drunk. LOL. Love it. 🙂

    Ok – April Rose – first off, I know what kebAAAAABs are Yes that is how you say it…..and I know what chips are as well. Although there was a bit of a difference when my kiwi/aussie friends had to deal with jandals versus thongs. LOL. (We think thongs are the things you wear on your feet…..LOL)


    I am texting College CD back because he has been texting me tonight.

    Of course, as you all know, I wish I were texting GS…..I almost did drunk text him. I”m glad I decided against it. Ugh.

    Ok I’m a little tipsey, so I have to go back and read what everyone has written. ,

  349.  #349Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    @Liquid LIght – Awesome that you are having a good hair day. 🙂 and that you think you look awesome…..that is awesome. 🙂 I love those days!!!!

  350.  #350Elsie on July 12, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    @April Rose – I THINK IT TOTALLY ROCKS THAT YOU WENT OUT LAST NIGHT. I’m sitting here thinking about it and I’m so proud of you!! Seriously – that is AWESOME. No matter how icky British kebabs are. 🙂 LOL. 🙂 Just kidding. 🙂 I will take your chips though – they rock. Espeically with deep batter fried fish. 🙂 Yumbo.

  351.  #351prplpsn28 on July 12, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    No effort whatsoever on his part this week. Feeling so completely done. Maybe I’m much better off being single. A lot less work and no worries or cares. Ugh! Feeling really frustrated!

  352.  #352Zia on July 12, 2013 at 10:53 pm

    Elise – NOOOOO don’t drunk text hahah. I actually now have an app on my phone so that IF I go out drinking, it bans me from texting my ex

  353.  #353janie baby on July 13, 2013 at 1:02 am

    Zia what app is this?

    for some reason my post earlier got put in moderation so i’ll put it again

    “Hello! Been keeping up with the blog but in the past only have posted during a crisis but i felt like checking in and saying hi instead of lurking haha.

    things are a little better. Even though my guy and I are taking space things feel better because I’m practicing releasing expectations and that’s when he comes forward.

    I’ve also been circular dating.. Not actually DATING but just having fun with friends, and then ok this is an interesting situation. I guess I’m kind of naive with men I dont’ have much experience because I’ve only been with a few boys always around my age.

    A few weeks ago my girls and I went out to a bar and I got along with this man who is 18 years older than me (41) from Ireland. He was buying us drinks and told us he owned the restaurant/bar next door so he invited us to eat dinner for free which was super sweet. And had been texting me to hang out ever since. I finally met up with him for lunch yesterday because I really got along well with him but I wasn’t thinking of it as a romantic thing. I just want to meet new friends in the city and I love challenging myself and meeting new people when I’m nervous. I felt awkward as soon as I got there though because ti was a nice place and I even offered to pay because I wanted to keep the “friend” vibe. Then at the end of lunch when started asking me if we could date I had to explain to him that I’m in a complicated situation with someone but it’s not resolved so I don’t want to have anything romantic with anyone else. I said I’d love to be friends and I’m serious. I lived in Europe last year for a year and I LOOVE European people and making new friends. And he said he understands and that’s ok but then he’s texting me “when can I see you again?” and I feel weird about leading someone on even though I was very upfront…I don’t know if that’s guilt that I’m conditioned to feel or if it’s okay. What do you guys think?

    Also my boy came over last night and I was gonna tell him about my day and that I had lunch with a new friend but I didn’t because I was tired and I had a feeling he would be jealous…IF we were committed and serious again I would say something but I didn’t know if there was a point if I wasn’t cheating, just friends with a new man.

    Is this part of circular dating? I dont know exactly. it was very fun yesterday and i don’t feel like i did anything wrong as i was upfront with this guy and even offered to pay cause i didn’t want the wrong vibe sent out.”

  354.  #354Sophie on July 13, 2013 at 1:09 am

    ha ha Zia that sounds amazing!!!! What I wouldn’t have done to have that app back in the day!

  355.  #355Sophie on July 13, 2013 at 1:25 am

    Hi Janie

    Yes! the point of Cding is to get out and about and have good times and enjoy yourself, and do things that make you feel good about you and let men be men and treat you good and see how that feels and explore and experiment with all of this.

    I always get caught up in the guilty feelings but really there’s nothing to be guilty about. You are looking out for You. You are doing just what feels good for You and Your life rather than sitting round and watching life pass you by.

    I’m not the best person to advise on CD’ing cos as I said i feel all confused by my feelings of feeling guilty or dishonest but I know that I don’t need to. I’m not responsible for anyone else but me and its up to me to shape my life so that its good for me. Its so much easier to cheer on from the sidelines when I’m not the one who is emotionally involved but from the sidelines I was thinking Go Janie! woop woop! Let this man treat you and lavish you with attention and enjoy how that feels 🙂

  356.  #356janie baby on July 13, 2013 at 1:35 am

    Thanks Sophie! I told one of my good friends today and she seemed disapproving like “well some men would have gotten angry” and I just said well then I wouldn’t want to see them again. So that made me feel a little guilty but I don’t know. Even though I’m only 22 I don’t see the point in not flirting or being friends with other guys unless I’m in a completely committed relationship. We are exclusive and I’d say his my boyfriend so I’m not “dating” anyone else but it was fun to hang out with another male and I told this Irishman I just want to be friends…

    how are you Sophie?

  357.  #357Syreena on July 13, 2013 at 1:49 am

    April Rose felt great to read you took yourself out.

    Felt suprised to hear about you then initiating, leaning forward knocking on his door offering him food that was left over.

  358.  #358Zia on July 13, 2013 at 1:56 am

    janie baby: if you search “drunk text” or “text blocker” in your apps on your phone you should be able to find one, there’s a few! 🙂

  359.  #359Zia on July 13, 2013 at 1:56 am

    janie baby: if you search “drunk text” or “text blocker” in your apps on your phone you should be able to find one, there’s a few! 🙂

  360.  #360Sophie on July 13, 2013 at 2:03 am

    I feel good thank you Janie – it’s hot hot hot here today so I’ve just been out to get supplies for a long day of lying in the garden mmmmm one of my favourite things 🙂

  361.  #361Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 2:05 am

    Yay Liquid Light 339!

    Yes that is exactly the point! Don’t you love days like that? Revel in it, and then when the chance comes to flirt, you’ll be oh-so-prepared! 🙂

  362.  #362Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 2:12 am

    Sophie 326

    I love what you did with putting positive self-affirmations above your head, doesn’t it feel so much nicer replacing the negative ones with those?

    And those things you discovered about yourself are not necessarily negative… I’d say if anything, it shows you have a thoughtful and considerate personality. But you could also turn that thoughtfulness and consideration to yourself and use that to not feel bad about asking for a better deal for yourself.

    Smiling at yourself, even if you don’t feel like it, is a great self-confidence boosting tool. Smile at yourself when you do something silly, smile at yourself when someone says something to you you don’t like, smile at yourself when you first wake up in the morning and your hair’s a mess. Get used to that loving, positive energy from yourself. xx

  363.  #363janie baby on July 13, 2013 at 2:12 am

    Thanks Zia! That will come in handy some nights 🙂 xoxo My worst leaning forward moments are always after one too many drinks.

    Sophie. sounds nice! it’s 2 am here. I’m about to go to bed. Gonna wake up early for yoga class ! mmmm I love yoga

  364.  #364Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 2:13 am

    PS. Sophie, that is one of my favourite things too. It sounds lovely, enjoy!

  365.  #365Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 2:14 am

    Yay April Rose, I hope you felt better! 🙂

  366.  #366Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 2:19 am

    I had two guy friends flirt with me, within a short space of time of each other, last night, so maybe day 1 of this positivity challenge is sending a change in my vibe out there?

    The first was a guy I used to date many moons ago who has since become a good friend, who Skyped me and had a long conversation about how I was doing and then at the end said he always wondered whether he and I shouldn’t try dating again.

    The second was a guy friend who messaged me and ended off our brief conversation, when I said I was going to go to sleep, with asking whether he could interest me in a back massage, dinner and a Jacuzzi (that’s hot tub to my American friends 🙂 )? I politely declined, but it felt flattering nonetheless.

    D is working today and has promised to Skype me later.

    Day 2 of positivity challenge commences. I have to say, already there were some tests and challenges yesterday.

  367.  #367Sophie on July 13, 2013 at 2:21 am

    Hi Indigo 🙂

    I saved it as my screen saver so now whenever I want I see my smiley face and it says I have confidence in me and I am my favourite person all in sexy pink graphics – yay!

    Yes – turn the thoughtfulness and consideration to myself – I have already told myself I’ve done things wrong this morning 🙂 I did some work negotiations without taking time to think – it was impulsive and works less in my favour – i’m not giving myself a hard time though just noticing and recognising that I am learning new things.

    yes – I love the smiling at yourself that feels like not taking everything so seriously – its not all such a big deal – I am getting better at this too – I made another picture that said shhhhhhh listen all is well 🙂 I am loving my pictures I feel girly I was always creating when I was small and then I lost that creative side for a while it’s nice to have it back

    Hope you have a good sleep janie and some lovely Yoga – great way to start the day!

  368.  #368Sophie on July 13, 2013 at 2:26 am

    yay Indigo! that’s great there are men just ready and waiting 🙂

  369.  #369Angel on July 13, 2013 at 3:07 am

    I had a chat talk with the guy whom I had the most awkward date ever with a few weeks ago. I really did now want to chat with him (especially since he asked how I were..) because I was tired and feeling horrible at the time. But then I used my boy energy to suck it up instead of avoiding it and I used my girl energy to tell him how I felt at the time, even though it felt soo vulnerable and stupid to say I was in a bad place. He then asked me out this weekend and I said that I feel really stupid to decline but I really need to rest during the weekend. And he was really sweet about it, consoling me even and then switched subject and talked about something else. If feels so freaking AMAZING to get immediate positive results, so motivating to keep me on track and trying to find a place of connecting instead of being a cactus.

  370.  #370Sophie on July 13, 2013 at 4:02 am

    Yay Angel!

  371.  #371Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 4:25 am

    Janie baby I think it is great you got to go out and experience another man. Let him text, ask you out, whatever. Just be aware of what your boundaries are. Just because he bought you food doesn’t mean you owe him anything or have to agree to anything. He chose to do it because it makes him feel good. He is pushing to be around you because he feels good when in your presence. It might make him feel younger.

    Being around him will help you see how men work and the things they do for women. Just observe yourself and what you are prone to thinking and doing when around men. The best kind of guy to date is the kind you have no investment in. Make sure the dates are in a public place so you avoid compromising situations. You have your whole life ahead of you. No rush needed.

  372.  #372Zia on July 13, 2013 at 5:02 am

    Where do you ladies find these men who are interested in you?! Seriously, I’ve had nooooo onnnnnnnne. So many dates, and not a one I have an interest in.

  373.  #373Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 6:12 am

    Zia, if you have dates, that is enough 🙂

    I think it doesn’t happen often for most of us when there is a guy we REALLY like.

  374.  #374Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 6:22 am

    I leaned back last night and felt very confident and calm…. I held my heart in my hands and I was warm when he came towards me…

    It was so wonderful when I went up to dance at the outdoor music concert by myself ( staying in love with me) and he sent my daughter up to bring me back to him and he took me and slow danced with me right there… I felt “OH my god this feels like where I’m to be”… with him… It was so romantic…

    We came home, I put my child to bed.. the laid his head in my lap and we started to banter some in a serious way about what he needs in a woman laughing… and of course they were all opposite of me… but then it turned to sleeping and he was still joking…. and I said something about you know what I need to sleep better with you… and then he said are you going to sleep over with me tomorrow night… I said I don’t know…

    then I don’t remember the words exactly its all surreal and it was weird how we just opened up to each other in a way we hadn’t before… and I told him how he talks about his ex girlfriend and then is in a funk…. and I didn’t feel he was over it, and how it made me feel….

    He was so warm and listening to me in way he hadn’t ever listened to me before… he was different last night…

    but then he said more about things and then I just listened and then he said, I think I just talked myself into a friendship with you… my heart stopped… he said I’m very clear now how I haven’t finished dealing with the muck of having someone you care about almost dying of acute leukemia, we talked about the 6 steps of grief etc… he said I need to talk to someone about these un dealt with feelings… he said NOW I’m clear as to why you been saying what you been saying now for months, how I’ve been hurting you, and why I’m “not ready” for sleepovers… he said I feel like I’ve let you down…and I’m not the man I told you I was in the beginning when I told you I was ready and had cleared all my old stuff and was ready for a long term relationship…

    Now I don’t feel good enough for you, and you deserve someone that has done his work on himself and is ready for you.

    I was sobbing….and he held me….

    I didn’t expect him to want to end things… and yet he looked me in the eyes and said ” I didn’t say this is over” but then he looked down and said “I don’t think we are a good match now.”. we are in different places…

    I don’t know which to believe the one where he looked deeply into my eyes and said “I didn’t say we are over” or the other where he wants to end it…

    I know he said I made it clear what I want the other night… well I did and I regret it now… but really it wasn’t anything different than what I said from the get go! which he agreed on…

    Then he started talking about his ex that had cancer and then he started to cry and get it out… I listened and held him…was there for him… he said this is just the tip of the iceberg

    I don’t know what to do…. my heart is breaking, I’m having chest pains… I’m scared…

    He said he doesn’t know if he has the drive…. that I do to want to really dig in there and get it all out…

    He knows I love him more than he loves me… he thinks that is b/c he hasn’t finished the grieving…. missing his ex’s child that he cared for during the cancer… he thought he was going to be her daddy… but he also knew that the ex-girlfriend didn’t love him or want him. his ex survived the cancer and moved away. he said he has no desire at all to get back with her. She treated him like a thing…used him.

    I don’t know if I should just cut the cord… and move on… or do the no boyfriend thing, continue to date him and put my profile back up and circle date…?

    I can’t sleep, I’m having chest pains… and I’m heart broken….

    I can’t believe a relationship with this much potential might end…

    I realize now that the issues I was having with him were due to his resistance to the deepening of the relationship and not issues with his personality… he was a different man last night… I can see now that isn’t who he is…I can see now that he is a deeply loving man, who really does care about me and my feelings. He was just protecting his heart.. now it is open… and not sure where I fit in to this…

    Part of me doesn’t regret the past 2 days b/c he was able to see clearly his un dealt with pain and was able to cry with me holding him, loving him…..which had to feel good after all he went through…

    I love him…. and when I met him… I looked into his eyes the first contact we had and I had this knowing and I heard “Oh it’s you!” When I met him, it felt like that was it for me….

    Maybe I was wrong… maybe I just don’t know anymore… and I’m hurting b/c my child really adores him… she is going to hurt too….

    I’m so scared… I’m hurting so bad….

    We had plans for the summer he and I …. it felt good.. now those stupid petty little thoughts and frustrations… I had feel so unimportant now…

    @Femininewoman was right…. I was focused on the outcome and not the man… I’m sick to my stomach now…… and yet if this hadn’t happened how would he of found out and started to cry, open up…

    I don’t have a script for this….. and right now I just want to give up… I’ve tried so hard to use the tools and they work when I do… and now I feel like I’ve really screwed myself from not using them more…

    I don’t know how to tell him, I love him and I don’t want it to be over… but that I understand he needs time to heal and he can take his time……that I’ll leave my options open and still date him….

    Part of me wants to just let him go… and if he comes back … to me… I’ll know he really wants me…and yet that doesn’t feel right either…..

    I want to run to him now and tell him I’m sorry for the pressure I put on him the other night and he felt pushed about marriage… and at least take responsibility for my share…. I don’t know if that is the right thing to do….

    I can’t believe here I am… I’m shocked…..

    I think I’m going to have to go to the dr.. the chest pains are worsening…


  375.  #375Elsie on July 13, 2013 at 7:09 am

    @Lisa – you and I are in VERY similar places. First off HUGE hugs. I am going to say something to you that someone said to me. This man has given you a GIFT. Yes, a gift. He knows himself well enough to know that he has a lot of baggage right now, and that he needs to get through that to be good to anyone else, or even himself. Exactly my same story. I do believe he loves you. But I also believe he is not capable of giving you a relationship and what you need right now. Exactly my same story. And I KNOW you want to help, fix, resolve all of this FOR him. But you cant. He has to want to do this himself, and then actually do this himself. Exactly my same story. Please believe that this man loves you. He does. That is why this is a gift. If he didnt care about you – he would just limp along, maybe using you for sex, getting what he needs from you and not having this conversation at all. Exactly my same story. You HAVE to let him go. For his sake. For your sake. You have to. This really has nothing to do with your talk with marriage with him. With or without that talk he would be in this place. His issues are his issues. You did nothing wrong. You seriously did nothing wrong. And his reaction is actually fantastic in the sense that now you know what he is capable of and not capable of. And its a gift because HE knows and he TOLD you. That was fair, and honest, and done out of love. Exactly my same story. Please just let him go. That is so hard to do. And I know because I just did it and I”m doing it and its very very fresh. Exactly my same story.

    I will tell you this. If you try to fix him, that is masculine energy. It will not work first of all. Second even if it does, he will resent you for it. PLease dont. Let him do this. And if he does get himself in a better place, then you can see if you are in a place where you can try again with him. Exactly my same story.

    I know he is saying he isnt ending it (that is what mine said too – he said he wanted to push pause) but at the end of the day……it is ending. Maybe there is a sequel to this novel, but this novel is over now.

    I hope that there is another sequel to your novel. Just like I hope there is in mine. But your life is worth living for YOU, not for someone else. Its great to help someone, but in this case, there is nothing you can do.

    In fact if you stay he will never probably work on getting better, and then this will never get better. The risk is that he will never get better even if he leaves. BUT…..the only way that he will get better is if he does this on his own.

    I am SO sorry for you Lisa. I know EXACTLY how you feel. The pain is so great it feels like there is a physical pain near your heart that just wont stop. The sobbing and the pain is almost unbearable. I know. But it has been a week and a half since my sobbing and I do feel better. Really, I do.

    Exactly my same story. So I feel like I can really be there with you. I’m so sorry that you are going through this, but just remember that whatever you had together meant something. That doesnt go away because its ending right now. It mattered. You two together mattered. Maybe you being with him is EXACTLY what he needed to realize he needs to get better to be in a good realtionship.

    Huge hugs to you. I’m so sorry.

  376.  #376April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 7:27 am

    Syreena 356,

    It was naughty and a bit gruesome of me and disrespectful to offer him my leftover chips, and also a bit kind cos they were well tasty (as Elsie can testify)!

    I knew it was leaning forward, and it felt weird, and I didn’t care about the outcome, and I walked away from his door thinking “Wow, buster, you had a chance to connect with me there, and you threw it away. Yet another one. Your loss mate”.

  377.  #377Elsie on July 13, 2013 at 7:31 am

    @April Rose!!!!! Glad to hear you on here today. 🙂 I’m soooo glad you went out last night. Too bad we couldnt go out together.

    And for the record you can always offer me your uneaten chips. They rock. Please pass the battered fish as well. Yummy.

    April Rose – I dont think I”ve asked you before – how old are you?

  378.  #378April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 7:42 am


    Rori says you are not allowed to beat yourself up.
    I know the power of regrets – if only I had done…. or said… or not said…..

    The only thing that could have happened is what happened. The future is unknown.

    To receive love, you need do nothing.

    Sweet siren, I feel for you in your pain.
    Maybe your chest hurts because you held your heart in your hands, and it needs to go back in your chest where you can listen to it beating – alive and vulnerably strong.

  379.  #379April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 7:45 am


    I just read your tipsy comments from last night and they made me chuckle a lot.
    When you said we could go for a few pints and hang out I felt a yearning for the wonderful sisterly connection (and laughter, and CHIPS) we could share together.

    I’m 43. How old are you?

  380.  #380Veronica on July 13, 2013 at 7:50 am

    Indigo – 84 – I hope my heart remember s and reminds me often : )

    Wow the positivity vibe is magical.

    Erika Awakening – 333 and 345 – I’m enjoying the resonance : )

    Lisa – 372 – I felt that tinge of sickliness in my stomach reading about all that closeness ending in goodbye. I feel so sad and disappointed with what happened.

  381.  #381April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 7:51 am

    Clarity, clarity, clarity. Is what I ask for. In the world of emotions, I’m so often in the soup.

  382.  #382Veronica on July 13, 2013 at 7:52 am


  383.  #383April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:07 am

    Something in what Zara posted, gave me this clarity, which I’m trying on for size:

    First come my good feelings, and then I can give back.

    So, he initiates, yes? If I like the way it feels I open up and become responsive.

    If he insists I support him without ensuring my good feelings are there first, then I become resentful, reluctant, obstructive. I judge him as unworthy of my giving, as he has not been giving.

    I finally asked him if he has anything to let out or express since our bad day on Tuesday (PMS aggravated) and at first he says why should he express his anger just because I want him to. He says he has a right to four days of processing (looks passive aggressive to me). Eventually he reacts to my endless futile attempts to get him to understand me (I know, I have to STOP this), and calls me a b*tch, about six times, right up in my face.

    I said that’s abusive. He said my being obstroperous (!!!) is abusive. I said I feel weird and awful and don’t want to be endlessly labelled.

    It’s like he takes his judgements of me into a quiet corner and would fester with them for months (and has done) until I ‘force’ him (after unsuccessful feeling communications) to explode and release some pressure.

    Does this sound like a reversal of male-female polarity to you?

    My frustration often spills out, causing damage.

    Maybe I should have had a look three years ago at EXACTLY what he was doing. And, not liking it, moved on.

    The more I stay in the situation, the more helpless I feel, and the more angry, which leads to more feelings of helplessness.

  384.  #384Wildgeranium on July 13, 2013 at 8:08 am

    (((((Lisa))))) So sorry for what you are going through… Your chest pains sound like an anxiety or panic attack.

    Although I am certain the conversation you had was extremely painful, my first thought was that he is a lot healthier than it first appeared….he *really* opened up to you.

    I know it hurts but, to me, it sounds like it might not be over. Sometimes we just have to get it all out and we say things that we might have been struggling with, but after we say them out loud and sort out the subsequent feelings we find we’re actually ready to move forward. I think its too early to say.

    Don’t make any decisions about the relationship while you are in pain or sad.

    Its so so difficult, but the best thing you can do right now is just not decide what to do. Take care of making yourself O.K. and comfortable–even though it might feel impossible.

    Let him further sort things out.

    Unless you are sure you’re completely done, I wouldn’t force it to a conclusion either way right now.

    Keep leaning back and taking care of yourself. The relationship does not need to be over for you to circular date.

    Sending big love and peace to you <3

  385.  #385Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 8:08 am

    OK so all the expert sirens agree that this is not the time for the no girlfriend thing and circle dating, this is the time to just cut the cord and have NO contact…?

    What do you experienced sirens say in this situation?

    @Elsie Thank YOu!!! <3
    @AprilRose <3 Thanks! Your right.. it's all perfect

    I guess I haven't learned yet, that I need do nothing to receive love… I know my children love me no matter what…. they are the loves of my life….

    "M" loves me though… and enough to let me go…

    I can't believe this is happening… I felt so sure we would work it out… he told me I was the one, the perfect for him, and he wouldn't let me go… yada yada

    I can't believe that I was slow dancing with this man just hours before and we were excited to celebrate our 6mos anniversary.. and then WAM!

    I know I'll be ok… I've been through far worse in life… but damn when will it ever change for me… I'm not a victim here but REALLY I've been through so MUCH in my 50 years… I deserve to be LOVED and cherished! I deserve to be worth fighting for, healing for, not giving up on me… I do deserve that…

    Life sucks sometimes… and for me… too much of the time… I'm not feeling sorry for myself, I'm being honest… I really deserve a break…

    Yes, @Elsie you are right, he does love me.. and a lot! Else he wouldn't have kept talking to me, or wanting to let me go ( he could use me for sex yes) I know that… but damn it makes it harder… This man has just ( aside from the occasional holding back) been amazing to me… I've never been / felt so loved!!

    I do want to get over it soon, b/c I don't like it eating up my time with my child and her seeing me all depressed and crying… it hasn't been easy on her with me dating and going through all these emotions… I hate that part… I want to be able to be present with her no matter what other crap is going on in my life… she is ( they both are ) the loves of my life…


    {{{ hugs }}}

  386.  #386April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:10 am

    I am reluctant and obstroperous, and I love those parts in me, they keep me from following unworthy leaders.

  387.  #387Wildgeranium on July 13, 2013 at 8:17 am


    Maybe after realizing that he was hurt so badly by his ex, and by being really vulnerable with you, he may process his feelings more and realize that he may be able to let go of that baggage. And, that his mourning over that relationship is not worth losing you (and a real relationship) over.

    I have no way to know this, and time will tell but, I know its easy to look at everything very polarized.

    Relationships are rarely linear. Even the best ones meander through difficulties, especially when they are so young.

    hugs <3

  388.  #388April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:17 am

    Please may I follow the lovely things you said to Lisa?

    “Don’t make any decisions about the relationship while you are in pain or sad.

    Its so so difficult, but the best thing you can do right now is just not decide what to do. Take care of making yourself O.K. and comfortable–even though it might feel impossible.

    Let him further sort things out.

    Unless you are sure you’re completely done, I wouldn’t force it to a conclusion either way right now.

    Keep leaning back and taking care of yourself. The relationship does not need to be over for you to circular date.”

    Lisa, I felt a huge glow when I read ” I’ve never been / felt so loved!!” Wow. I’ve yet to experience this. What a gift indeed. Can you keep that feeling going? To and from yourself?

  389.  #389Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 8:20 am


    Oh yes, that is what I realized last night… OMG he is healthier than I thought… and it was such a huge deepening for me… I wanted him so much in that moment… he opened up to me, apologized and poured his heart out… I love that in a man…at that moment… in time… I was sure… that all my doubts were just gone…

    I think your right, I’ll cry, love me, nurture me, and not make any decisions now… he will be gone for a week and I can just BE… and not have to DO anything not even make a decision…that feels good… that feels really good… I can look at me… like Dominique said, I’m the one that needs to change… and look deeper into me… see what is underneath these tears… put my hands in the earth, garden, soak up nature and hug my child often.. that feels good…

    Yay! that feels good! I take care of me… and not do anything else….

    Oh I’m so grateful! for you! The past 2 days you have really been an amazing amazing help to me… I’d give you a huge hug if I was there… {{{Hugs}}}

    I love this group of women and I can’t express how deeply I feel about this group and Rori’s work… I love you all!

    I love me…

  390.  #390April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:20 am


    He may be in shock over how deeply he opened up to you, and he may feel somehow embarassed, I don’t know.
    There will also be a part of him that will forever appreciate the safety of your harbour, and the healing it allowed him to experience.

  391.  #391April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:25 am

    The hardest thing for me is to treat an imperfect man as if he is worthy of my respect.

  392.  #392April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:26 am

    There is a part of me full of rage and hate and wanting to tear weak men apart.

  393.  #393Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 8:26 am


    I think you are right he might feel inadequate right now… and I’m not sure I handle it right… I could have said NO your good enough for me, I love you! What I did say was that I love you sooo much, and I think it is such a turn on for you to open up to me right now, being vulnerable and honest… I love that…

    Thanks for that I will try to keep that going to and from me… your right…

    Love {{hugs}}

  394.  #394April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:36 am

    What do I do?
    He won’t lead, and he won’t let me lead?


  395.  #395April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:44 am

    Indigo, Liquid Light,

    I don’t want to let down the appreciation team, so I will look for the positives in my situation.

    *I don’t have the pressure of coming up with feeling messages, because he will only deal with me purely in terms of the practical task we are carrying out this weekend. So, I can drop it all. I need do/say nothing.

    *I will feel the beauty in the present moment – the sun, the breeze, the sounds around me.

    *Even if I have recurring thoughts that say I messed up/I can’t do relationship/ I’m a man-hater, I will ignore them and hug my inner little girl.

    *I can say with honesty that my lack of respect for the masculine is the place where I need to begin healing. And I can feel delighted I’ve made this discovery. And I can begin the healing path now.

    *I feel very grateful for this blog, you women, and Rori.

  396.  #396April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 8:46 am

    @myself 393

    He may think we don’t need to go anywhere just now. Hence, no leading.

  397.  #397Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 8:48 am

    Ask “why are you stuck”, in a positive context.

  398.  #398Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 8:52 am


    I have learned to admire these openings up from a man so much. I don’t think it’s easy to do, to put their feelings into words like that, and to know that they are hurting you. And I really believe this act of authenticity shows you that he cares about you. A great deal.

    I love what Wild Geranium says about *not doing* anything while you are in this state. You don’t have to come to any decisions. You don’t have to understand. Really it’s ok.

    *hugs* x

  399.  #399Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 8:54 am

    What are his biggest fears?

    What’s in it for him?

  400.  #400Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 8:55 am

    April Rose 393

    This is so amazing! Yay you!

  401.  #401April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 9:03 am

    How do I begin to create an inner ‘Dad’ who gives to me, protects, and cherishes me?

    Where to start?

  402.  #402Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 9:04 am

    I feel appreciation for the gorgeous lazy day I got to enjoy, my walk in the sunshine felt extra special today and I felt so grateful for the air filling my lungs. I am so grateful for my sweet family, for their concern for me, for the wonderful dinner my mom made the other night, she is such a great cook, how lucky am I.

    I feel grateful for D’s consideration in Skyping me when he had finished his work, and sending me a video that made me LAUGH so hard. What gifts. My life is filled with wonder and gifts.

  403.  #403April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 9:08 am

    Why am I stuck?

    Looking inside, I feel a sense of indignance. Being told off for something that wasn’t my fault. Feeling unsafe and powerless at grown-ups’ stupidity. Knowing without doubt that I was smarter than them.

    Why am I stuck?

    Something must feel safe when stuck. There’s a safety in it. Hmmm. A familiarity?

    Why am I stuck?

    It feels so different to ask this positively. Exciting. Like the question itself, asked in this way, can unlock the stuckness.

    Why am I stuck?

    Because I forget to look from the opposite standpoint!
    I’m stuck in one view (negative!)

  404.  #404Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 9:11 am


    Yes, I agree! He does!

    and I’m now in a space of loving my tears and pain… it took me a few hours to do it, but I’m sinking into the pain and loving it… and I’m content with my messy hair and my smudged face and petting my dogs, doing things around the house while I cry…. it’s so warming and fuzzy feeling…

    My best friend ask me this morning what the pain was telling you… I told him, I wasn’t sure but I thought it was ” I’m tired of loving men so deeply and not have it returned ” he said.. turn that around… ” I’m tired of not loving me so deeply and not having it returned” then my chest pains stopped! I realized it was telling me to love myself… and return back to ME….

    Love! {{hugs}}} Indigo… so grateful!

  405.  #405Zara on July 13, 2013 at 9:39 am

    Do you want to feel cherished or to be respected?
    Do you want to drive or to sit in the passenger’s seat?
    There’s a male and/or female match to either choice. I get to choose which role I want in the relationship, and I stay grounded in it.
    A healthy relationship is a balance between a feminine energy individual, may it be a man or a woman, and a masculine energy individual, may it be a man or a woman.

    When a child, I heard the expression “She is the one who wears the pants” , referring to a woman married to a man, both looking happy. I also heard the expression “He is the one who plays the wife”, referring to a man within a homosexual couple.
    I thought “Wow! That is really how simple it is.”
    In the first case the husband is a feminine energy man who happens to be heterosexual.
    In the second case the husband is a masculine energy man who happens to be homosexual.
    The energy may be feminine or masculine, regardless of the reproduction organs who may be male or female. Each to their own energy, regardless of their genitals shape. But there is got to be the “old same old” masculine/feminine energy complementarity for a relationship to blossom. Whatever gender I am and whatever energy, I can’t co-create a relationship without the masculine/feminine energy dance.
    Equity blocks romance. Complementarity nests romance. There is no shape and colours predefined to tell me what Complementarity looks like. Each couple their own. It is not about a static look, it is about energy.

    So the question was not what am I supposed to want as a woman, and what is a man supposed to do to qualify as my partner, what are others saying a woman is supposed to want, what are others saying a man is supposed to do.

    The question is what energy in myself serves my body best, what does my own experience tells me about my own energy, what do I feel and thus what type of energy from a partner complements my own energy best: feminine or masculine?

    Whichever serves me best, as long as:
    __I don’t manipulate myself into believing a partner who demands from me equity or even who gives to get back is going to be energetically complimentary some day.


  406.  #406Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 9:46 am

    Zara, wow, I really love this.

  407.  #407Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 10:35 am

    Ok now I don’t know what to do…

    “M” texted me: “Honey, I was up at 9am for twenty minutes then went back to bed. I woke up a few minutes ago at 1p”

    No ending… I have NO idea what to do with that.. I know we were up until 2am talking and that bothers him to be up that late…

    I suspect he might cancel this evenings dinner plans b/c of being tired and having to pack for his trip tomorrow…

    So, Do I respond to the text or just lean back and don’t… wait on him to call me or not… ???

    I’m inclined to not respond…


  408.  #408Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 10:54 am

    Lisa it is my belief that the part of you that you claim wants to give up, is actually wanting to surrender. Surrender to love, to commitment to yourself, to healing your pain and to moving deeper.

    It seems last night he showed you that you have the keys to his heart. You have opened it up. So he shared his pain, his doubts and his fears. He seemed to have showed you the hot buttons also that you can choose to stay away from so as not to trigger him negatively.

    Regarding his doubts, it is great that he shared them. What I learned in CCarter’s From Casual to Committed is that the man has doubts and as he goes deeper in commitment and surrender these doubts will bubble up. It is great if he shares them and deal with them now rather than wait until later.

    I believe this guy needs to know that you won’t hurt him like his. He needs to know that he has a safe place to go where he can share his weaknesses and his vulnerability. Where he can take off his armor and know he will not be hurt. Even after doing that it is still his job to move the relationship forward. If he doesn’t at least you know you have it in you to get to the relationship you want, even if it means it is with another man.

    I don’t get the impression that this is over for him. If you do feel he has walked away emotionally, in case he comes forward again I would let him know that I am there for him if he ever needs someone to talk to. I would let him know that he needs not fear that he will be judged as weak by me. He might have thought he talked himself into a friendship because he assumed you now saw him as weak. That was a great moment to let him know that only a great and strong man would dare to open up himself so wide to share unconditionally with the woman he feels addicted (or whatever strong word you want to use to plant a seed in his head) to.

    I believe only when a man reaches to another level of surrender in relationship that he can open up and share deeply. It is a choice point for him and if he doesn’t walk away here he is showing he has the capacity and willingness to go deeper.

  409.  #409Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Lisa that text is just to show he is thinking of you and incorporating you in his life.

    He did start it with HONEY.

  410.  #410Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 10:59 am

    He was the one talking and choosing to stay up late.

    Let him decide if the experience was more healing to him than going to sleep. To me the text suggests “I was up late, yet I did get my sleep. Yayy!!”.

  411.  #411Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 11:02 am

    I was expecting him to withdraw a little, especially after than intense and deeply intimate talk about himnself. To recover from the intimacy and get his testosterone level back up high.

    But no. Here he is still staying connected as soon as he is awake.

  412.  #412Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 11:09 am

    What’s in it for him?

    He gets to feel good. Unburdened having spoken about some of the stuff with the ex that might have been wearing him down. Walking around holding all of that in. He must feel must rested and energized now that that energy has moved around a bit.

    Don’t regret expressing what you want. He knows now what he has to do. Keep your standards high, you will be more attractive to him. If he was put off by that he would, like many immature men do, just plain disappear. Instead he is here with you talking. He is going through his emotional process. Don’t make it into something negative about you.

  413.  #413Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 11:20 am


    Wow have wonderful Thanks!


    and now he has texted me and maybe that is a toe in the water to see if I’m still open to see him or talk to him?

    What should I text back?

    I’m up too honey? I’m happy to hear from you?


  414.  #414Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 11:23 am

    Yess, I do want to surrender rather than give up! I’m crying… I do I do want to open myself up to deeper love and commitment to myself… and to him if he shows up…. YES! that’s it! I want to surrender and it has been 20 years… it’s time… to trust to surrender!

    Thank so much! I’m so grateful! LOVE!! {{hugs}}

  415.  #415Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 11:24 am

    Don’t know that I’d text back yet Lisa. He is not asking you anything. He is just showing that the attraction is still strong and he is still connected in some way. Not responding will ramp up the attraction because then the space is still there for him to step into.

    I wouldn’t text back. I would see this as him giving energy to me.

  416.  #416Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 11:25 am

    @Feminiewoman Yes!~that makes me happy!!! should I text him back? What should I say!?

  417.  #417Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 11:38 am


    Ok I haven’t but the phone rang and it only rang twice.. before I could get to it… and not enough time for the caller id to show up… I suspect it was him… he tends to be a little timid at times if I don’t respond he gets his feelings hurt… feels rejected…

    We have plans tonight and though I don’t want to pick up the Oars… I don’t want him to think I’m rejecting him/ don’t want to see him… he has tended to consistently say that… it makes him feel bad when I don’t respond… most especially since he was vulnerable last night and that might make him more sensitive now to rejection…

    Though it’s 2:30 now and date is around 5:30 should I text him back in another hour or so… ?

    With maybe a smile or something…?

    What do you think?


  418.  #418Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 11:43 am

    Lisa what I think is that right now you are overwhelmed with fear and anxiety and wanting to cling on to him for dear life. He did not leave a message and he did not ask you a question.

    How about believing that he know you love him and is not rejecting him. How about believing that he is overwhelmed with intoxicating desire for you?

  419.  #419Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 11:51 am

    I can believe that…

    yes, I can….

    maybe i’m overwhelmed with anxiety… I’m sure tired from all the crying and journaling today… purging old stuff…

    but mostly just b/c I know him and how he has responded in the past to me following the rules of him not asking me for anything and me not responding unless he does… and he was hurt when I didn’t respond to his e-mails and text and he finally expressed it to me after months of me not responding unless he ask a question…

    I wasn’t wanting to lean in per se just remembering how he told me he felt…

    and yes, I’m going to believe that he has intoxicating desire for me…that feels warm and fuzzy….and vulnerable


  420.  #420Elsie on July 13, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    @Lisa – I agree with most of what FW says and also April Rose says to you. But if you feel you want to text him back knowing that he feels rejected easily, then I would do that – you know him and you best. I would keep it light and not mention dinner. You have a good guy here whether or not you guys end up together in the end…Exactly my same story. LOL

    @April Rose – we are basically the same age – I’m a bit younger. Listen. Sweetie – I actually care about you so please dont be mad. Anyone who got up in my face like that after giving him space for 4 days for something that wasnt even my fault and calling me those names. Honey, this is not a good man, he is toxic. I dont know what is oging on with him but you have got to get out of this environment. Does he live there? He has got some major issues, which you ant do anything about. This is just my opinion, but wow, sweetie, you totally DO NOT deserve this. And if his only communication is to yell names at you after 4 days…..wow. Uncool. Totally UNCOOL.

  421.  #421Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    Lisa if I felt he was committed and had a desire for me then I would believe my contact would be welcome. I wouldn’t be worried about his hurt. Men’s anger is a preprogrammed default reaction.

    If I were you I would reread and revisit the experience and see if I really do believe that he was ending it. If you believe he was ending things then it would seem to me that you took his text as a critical and blame attack. As in “it is your fault that I did not get enough sleep”.

    If I truly believe that he desires me I would have no problem picking up the phone calling him and teasing him about it. BUT that is me.

  422.  #422Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    Lisa it depends on where you are coming from.

    He doesn’t need a mummy to coddle or pamper his feelings. If he does, are you comfortable acting like his mummy.

  423.  #423Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    No not at all he wasn’t ending it for sure.. he wasn’t sure what he wanted he said, he was tired and couldn’t think straight… I was too… it was a very emotional night for us both… lots of crying…

    I do believe he desires me… yes! He bought me a frame with a picture of us kissing…

    He says he loves me…

    I can call him and tease him yes, not sure how to do that… I’m good at teasing men… I can be light and easy…

    what do I tease him about… Honey, happy 6mos anniversary! YaY we made it…that is what he was teasing me with last night… laughing… at us ….

    Hugs! <3

  424.  #424Lisa on July 13, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    That’s true! I do need to be clear on where I’m coming from…

    No I don’t want to be his mommy…


  425.  #425Veronica on July 13, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    FW – I admire what you’re doing here with Lisa. Your mention of immature men disappearing really helps me now. Thank you.

    Zara – thank you for the thoughts on complementarity – I’m inwardly not a girly girl but am quite sensual and have the body of a girly girl – so it can be quite confusing. And which clothing style to wear can be a nightmare sometimes.

  426.  #426Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    I would imagine him having no resistance and would tease him about being overwhelmed with intoxicating desire for me because I drive him wild and even in his sleep he has an overwhelming and powerful craving that drives him to text me the moment he wakes up and become conscious because his emotions are roaring in his ears.

    I believe he is emotionally naked and could be tantalized by your words now. If you do believe he wants you, I would call.

  427.  #427April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Thank you soo much. I feel your care swooshing into my heart from across the atlantic 🙂

    What happened just now is that we spent two hours talking and he opened up and at the end said he felt ashamed for being weak, and ashamed for not being able to man up.

    We almost didn’t talk. When I walked into the living room he asked me to go out and leave him alone. He looked awful. So I hung around, sat down in a chair, stayed quiet. Then he started talking.

    He believes that what happened on Tuesday was my fault. It was pretty awful, and I did overstep the line and cause some damage. It’s another chipping away at his confidence, which he believes I am doing, and maybe subconsciously I am.
    He is prone to depression and has a lot of responsibilities, which I’m supposed to be helping him with. Its a weird situation. We look after an old place and we don’t get paid for it.

    I’m not sure where he is now, but I don’t think he is in a fit state to go out tonight. We are invited to a party.

  428.  #428Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    So I hung around, sat down in a chair, stayed quiet. Then he started talking.


    A woman following her intuition is to a man like candy to a child.

    A man’s anger is not always directed at a woman. He can be angry at himself.

  429.  #429Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Veronica, some disappear, upgrade themselves and then reappear.

  430.  #430ArabianLove on July 13, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Waiting is hard and i know im not suppose to be waiting … Ive taken it upon myself to learn something new! But since he called yesterday and i missed it i figured he would call back today.

  431.  #431Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    YES Feminine Woman 426.

    I believe that is why we women have been given intuition, in order to know these things. I believe a man can draw tremendous safety and confidence from a woman’s intuitive knowing.

  432.  #432Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    Arabian I understood you chose to not take the call because you were still angry. Was that the case?

  433.  #433ArabianLove on July 13, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Yes femininewoman… It didnt feel right at the moment and i had plans to get lost in a painting session that night … I wasnt in the mood to talk 😐

  434.  #434Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    Arabian did he leave a message?

    Why are you waiting?

    Have you taken responsibility for creating the experience that you are now in?

    Or are you in regret? Why are you figuring he would call back?

    I know. A lot of questions.

  435.  #435April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    Doesn’t look like we are going out tonight. He is back in his room and I don’t want to approach him again.

    Looks like I’m spending Saturday night listening to Rori’s Toxic Men program.


  436.  #436April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    Do I want this much responsibility? That my behaviour on a Tuesday can send him into a tailspin by Saturday?

  437.  #437ArabianLove on July 13, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Hihihihi thats ok 😉 !

    No he didnt leave a message … But i called him back when i was done doing my stuff which was late at night many many hours after he called me. obviously he didnt answer. Lol

    Im waiting because i want to spend time with him this weekend.

    I guess i am responsible for the situation i am in now since had i responded when he called or called back shortly after i may have been out with him at this very moment. I dont regret anything .. I figure if a man really wants me he will call back … Usually he calls several times but anyways … I guess he made other plans bc i always miss his calls …

  438.  #438April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    Okay, so he wasn’t in his room, I peeked. He is in another room, already half drunk. This calls for drastic measures. I am going to go to the party on my own, and I am going to stay over.

  439.  #439Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    April Rose,

    That was going to be my next suggestion.

    Can you not get away for a while? If a man is in a funk and nothing I try seems to be dissolving the situation, I know that’s what I would do.

  440.  #440Indigo on July 13, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    I favour weekends/holidays away.

    They trigger me, but in a good way. My personal belief is that a woman taking herself away for her own pleasure shifts something in a relationship, and can create more attraction.

  441.  #441April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Oh, I feel awful. I don’t know the way to the party.
    I just want to be away from him.

    I don’t want to be his rock.
    He is sitting drinking beer (fast)

    Not caring what sort of Saturday night I’m having.

    I feel sick.

    I think he is unwell. I feel scared.

  442.  #442April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    I want to go to my hometown where my friends are, but that’s a four hour drive 🙁

  443.  #443April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    I feel so sad and scared and can’t stop sobbing.
    I don’t know what to do

  444.  #444April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    I just listened and talked with him for two hours.

    Then he disappeared to get drunk

  445.  #445April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    I’m scared to leave the building in case he does something to himself

  446.  #446April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    And I so want to get away from him

  447.  #447April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    I wish I knew the way to the party. I’d throw him in the passenger seat and drive off like the wind.

    That would feel like a scene from some crazy film about codependent people

  448.  #448April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    I have a sense he is opting out of the relationship and won’t say it. Will behave badly so that I’m the one who leaves.

  449.  #449April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Two hours ago he was saying we’ve had a bad week.

    And now he is getting drunk, alone.

    Is that normal, girls?

    Should I not panic?
    Neither of us hardly ever drinks alcohol, (except him when he’s with his mates).

  450.  #450Femininewoman on July 13, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    I just finished playing this attention getting game.

    What I realized about myself is that I feel more drawn in to the big smile. Sometimes I could hardly see the soft smiling inviting smile. I also noticed my heart racing as I tried to zone in on the smiling face.

  451.  #451Luzydel on July 13, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    I feel frustrated with the idea that I have to be, behave differently than I am to be with someone…

    I practically put my foot in my mouth with captainCD, just because I keep following self imposed rules of leaning back, forward, Fm’s instead of saying what I need to say in the moment!

    I feel many things right now, I feel exhausted! I want to be a better me, not something I read from a book, or a dating advice place. I want to say things in the moment and so what? I will be careful with people’s feelings, but at the end it is not my responsability to how they feel.

  452.  #452April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    I’ve got such a mixture of feelings

    I feel indignant and I’m thinking “I’ll show you” and I want to drive off without saying anything and stay away for a week.

    I feel sad and hollow in my tummy. Like a cold desparing wind of loss is scratching the inside of my chest with boney fingers.

    I feel weirdly vindicated, like “I thought he was not a match for me. I knew it wasn’t right” but that leaves me with “What the hell do I do now?”

  453.  #453April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    I second that.

  454.  #454Luzydel on July 13, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    Going on a date with a new person, I told captain CD that I was feeling anxious and pushy and that I was open to meet and talk, but That I needed to step back and do things that feel good. I chased him, pretended I was cool with having sex, and I did not talk about how I was feeling when he was there in my face, I did not confront him and myself and ask why are you here, what do you want? Do you still feel the same about spending time with me? But I didn’t I Acted cool, I did not state my needs, because “I was not supposed to” I missed an opportunity!

  455.  #455Zara on July 13, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    ***** 423: Veronica says:

    Zara – thank you for the thoughts on complementarity – I’m inwardly not a girly girl but am quite sensual and have the body of a girly girl – so it can be quite confusing. And which clothing style to wear can be a nightmare sometimes. *****

    Hmmmm this to me would be the same as saying I have got a masculine soul in a feminine body. Feels healthy to me. I would let the masculine soul guide me to what looks sexy on my feminine body and I would wear just that. 😉


  456.  #456Zara on July 13, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    ***** 404: Indigo says:

    Zara, wow, I really love this. *****



  457.  #457Zara on July 13, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Following from 403

    __ If I want to feel cherished: I am a passenger, I am a feminine energy. I want to trust and respect my driver.

    __ I don’t want to manipulate myself into believing I can make a feminine energy partner become complementary to me, although I am a passenger myself.
    The car is not going to even start off, nobody being in the driver seat. I can fool myself and say “well I am going to get in the driver seat just to start the car off, he will take from there.” I might spend years driving him around, waiting for him to take the steering wheel off my hands. Years exhausting myself and making myself sick. And making him feel inadequate. When I finally listen to my body and I stop driving, the car stops definitively. Still no driver on board. Two wounded passengers. The car has become a war casualty.
    The best is to get out of the car and find one with a driver.


    __ If I want to be respected: I am a driver, I am a masculine energy. I want to cherish my passenger’s feelings.

    __ I don’t want to manipulate myself into believing I can make a masculine energy partner become complementary to me, although I am a driver myself.
    The car will start off but the other driver will get frustrated and get off the car. I will keep driving while shouting through the car window “come on, pop back in my car, I beg you to see how good a driver I am” And the masculine energy back in his own car driver seat with his passenger’s seat available, says “yeah, yeah, you are good, but I am not getting back in your passenger’s seat. I am a driver, you know? I feel eager to cherish a passenger’s feelings, I will keep driving until I meet a passenger. I hope you’ll find yours”.
    If I am wise enough to stop pursuing this driver, I become aware of the passengers on the side road who are looking for a driver.
    Or I become aware that may be I’d feel so much more at peace as a passenger myself. May be I am not a driver after all…

    I have to find what serves my body best: be the driver or the passenger. And be honest about it.


  458.  #458April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 2:25 pm


    I am dolled up for a party and feeling fine.

    Just need to decide whether to slip out unseen, or let him glimpse my gorgeousness. Don’t want to risk falling into discussions with him. i’d prefer to slip out.

  459.  #459April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    Oh shit. The bottle of wine I wanted to take is in the kitchen, where he is now.

  460.  #460April Rose on July 13, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    Anyway, I’m off now until tomorrow.

    Thank you lovely women for being here.

    You need do nothing, and I love you.

  461.  #461Syreena on July 13, 2013 at 5:56 pm

    April Rose, Hope you have some fun and manage to put him out of your head for a while.

    Words that feel like an alarm bell to me are shame and depression and him turning to drink to numb it out rather than feel the pain and heal his depression and shame.

    You did the right thing tor thing to get out of there for a while.