When He’s Mad At You – Is He Just Mad At Himself?

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In my experience (not to say this is always the truth) a man will get mad at you when he feels bad about something.

Sometimes he’s done something to hurt you, or he’s cheating, or he’s lying, and sometimes he just feels bad and guilty because he’s done something or is about to do something so very minor that he knows, nevertheless, is stressing you and not making you happy.

The range of this is the same as the range of his good or dicey character, his ability to communicate, how much in touch he is with his own feelings and workings.

As always, putting a man on the defensive makes things harder – he’ll just back up and clam up more…so this is where we have to go FIRST in the opening-up department – be vigilant about Feeling Messages. (Feeling Messages are the most basic, most profound Tool in all my work – they will change your life in days. Even if you think you know how to use them properly from this blog and my eletters – you need my Have The Relationship You Want ebook to really understand how to write them in advance and practice them. It’s a workbook, so you’ll be able to learn to write your own, unique Feeling Messages down for the most common situations you encounter…Try it…)

If what you want in your relationship is “radical honesty” – and that’s just about the most powerful thing you can create in a relationship – then that’s what you want to talk about.

You want to talk about how that feels to you and what it looks like – and you start with YOU being radically honest about YOU.

Most of the time, a man doesn’t know what’s going on with him and why he feels bad…but sometimes it’s something he knows he’s doing.

Regardless – if he’s getting mad at you and feeling unusually sensitive and defensive – he’s doing something or thinking something he’s not feeling good about.

Perhaps the men on the blob here can talk about this a bit… how “attack mode” seems to be a human condition, across the board, and how it works in men, in their personal experience.

I know I get “cranky when I feel bad about myself, something I’ve done, a way I’m feeling. I turn it on myself, and I turn it on others – and all I have between me and going down that rabbit hole is my commitment to AWARENESS.

I don’t need to figure out what’s going on with me – but if I’m feeling vulnerable to “attack” and feeling like “attacking” (or a sense of urgency – that’s a great clue) – if I can just become aware of it and sink down into – I’ll start to feel more and discover what’s going on and go through it quickly.

Love, Rori

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  1.  #1T-Girl on June 2, 2011 at 7:09 am

    Good morning! OK, off to work now… 🙁

  2.  #2T-Girl on June 2, 2011 at 7:13 am

    I haven’t experienced my guy getting mad yet, but everyone once in awhile when we are having a quiet moment together, he will say “I wish I knew what you are thinking”. Sometimes I don’t really think I am thinking anything, just feeling happy in the moment. I guess I need to open up more and say exactly that.

  3.  #3Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 7:43 am

    Thanks for this post Rori. Hopefully the guys will chime in.

  4.  #4Paula0126 on June 2, 2011 at 7:53 am

    Not that I have had many relationships for comparison, but I do know now, in retrospect, with the man I have been in a serious [IMAGINARY] relationship with, I realized he was consistently, regularly, mad “at me” because he had already been cheating on me. I stayed in this really dysfunctional, hurtful and verbally abusive relationship for over three years. Towards the end of our third year together, when I would come visit him, he would criticize me and insult me. Here are some examples of the things he said to me “are you lying down on the couch again?! Is that all you’re going to do?! Sleep?! That’s why you’re so fat!” Yes, I admit I was overweight, but not “so fat” as he would describe me. Not a very loving thing to say, right? And this was after I already advised him that I may be taking naps mid-day because I have been traveling outside the country and is still jetlagged. When I came to get up from the couch, he then said, “Ugh! Nevermind! Get back to bed!” and stormed out of the room. No apologies at all afterwards. Nothing. Same day, just a couple of hours later, while having lunch, he said “you eat crappy food! and because of you, I am also eating crappy food!” (he’s a vegetarian). Mind you, he has no job, no money, I pay for the groceries when I would visit so he cannot say I am a burden and even give extra money for the water and electricity which he accepted. So there I was, eating lunch with tears flowing down my cheeks. I cried so often and so regularly that my tears eventually became less salty (yes! I could literally “taste the difference!”). Fast forward maybe 15 minutes later after lunch, he then says “when you’re here, I really couldn’t do anything! You completely disrupt my schedule!” Note: when I come for a visit, I just follow his lead. If he wants to listen to his show, I let him. I cannot even watch anything on tv, because he said I should be out exercising, and that’s why I am fat, because that’s what all I did was lie down and watch tv or eat. I could go on and on, but long story short, I found out later that he was already communicating with another woman, well, many women, and was arranging to meet one of them on the day on my birthday. He wanted me to get mad. He wanted me to respond with the same hostility and anger. I eventually did. I cannot take anymore of the insults, the DELIBERATE insults, designed to make me out to be the “bad partner,” so he can possibly justify the “cheating” or the intended cheating. It is important for me to say though that this is an EXTREME example – this is a combination of Mr. Toxic and Ms. Low Self-Esteem in a truly TOXIC relationship. I believe there are MORE good men that there are “toxic” men. I also believe that there are also some “toxic men,” who are just there temporarily, but they are not “forever” toxic. Men have deep and profound feelings just like us, women, I think, and they also want to love and be loved. The lesson learned for me though is, it first starts with me. I have to love myself and honor myself just as I am right now. NOT 10, 15 or 20 pounds from now, but right now. I know what I want and what I want is to be loved and treasured as the beautiful person that I am. I am at that point now, working on really appreciating me. Though I am taking a hiatus from a relationship, I am not doing it out of fear of dating or hating men, I am doing it simply because I recognize that for so long, I have loved everyone else except me. I know I will soon be ready to start dating, or, circular dating, as Rori would say and I am actually quite excited about that. Next time, I know to pay attention to when the man I am wit is “mad” or upset with me and bravely express how he is making me feel. I know I am at a place now too that if after giving that man my 100% and he or the relationship, is not in a place where I need him to be, I know I will find the love (for myself and him) to move on. He may not be the right man for me, but for someone else and that’s okay. Love and Light and Joy to you all! 🙂

  5.  #5Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 8:21 am

    Wow, Paula, how brave of you to put this story out there. I feel touched.

    And there’s a message in it for me…love yourself NOW. Despite my seeming confidence (and I admit, occasional bravado), I struggle with just accepting and loving myself as I am, no improvements or tweaks required, deeply and profoundly. I still look in the mirror every night and say those words to myself hoping it will stick soon.

    If you are new…welcome! If you have not been here in awhile (you seem to talk the talk!), then it’s nice to meet you on here.

  6.  #6tinque on June 2, 2011 at 8:23 am

    Wow Paula, awesome story YAY you…


  7.  #7DE on June 2, 2011 at 8:25 am

    Yes, Rori…this is soo awesome

    “I don’t need to figure out what’s going on with me – but if I’m feeling vulnerable to “attack” and feeling like “attacking” (or a sense of urgency – that’s a great clue) – if I can just become aware of it and sink down into – I’ll start to feel more and discover what’s going on and go through it quickly.”

    I don’t need to figure it out…
    I must notice and sink down into my feelings…

    Today, I will listen again to your Reconnect program…I feel tuned into it 🙂

    Warm hugs,

  8.  #8Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 8:31 am

    Paula I am amazed at your strength. Loving ourselves is a challenge but it feels great once we start doing it. I am on my journey also.

  9.  #9AmazingMe on June 2, 2011 at 8:36 am

    Paula wow what an amazing and touching story. No woman needs to put up with that. You are so much better and worth so much more one day you will find that man that appreciates you for you. Until then focus on you and your life, take baby steps to work on things about yourself and or your life. It is the confidence and love for yourself that will not attract any man like that. Not only you won’t put up with it but you spot them real quick. Listen to your heart and gut instinct, you will never have to be in that situation again because you are in charge of you and it is your life. Best wishes…xoxoxox

  10.  #10AmazingMe on June 2, 2011 at 8:39 am

    Sorry to ramble sirens I just felt triggered with this man, who does a man think he is when he speaks or treats a woman like that! It happened to me maybe more of us but never again because I am worth it! I am the fresh ripe apple at the very top of the tree and whatever brave man is strong enough to get me will be the one 🙂

  11.  #11Rori Raye on June 2, 2011 at 8:57 am

    Amazing – yes you ARE all that! Love, Rori

  12.  #12Rori Raye on June 2, 2011 at 8:58 am

    DE – Great! Let me know how you like the “New Normal” stuff in there…Love, Rori

  13.  #13Rori Raye on June 2, 2011 at 9:03 am

    Paula, Thank you so much for your story…You sound in a totally great place, insightful, and ready to love you…Brava to you, and love to you, Rori

  14.  #14orkid on June 2, 2011 at 9:07 am

    hi Rori,
    as above u text almost 99% it’s happen to me now..
    i really don’t know what to do to get back him n close with me as normaly… but he is good guy n i jealous girl… n this is my wrong cuz always happen
    how can u help me? im so sad n worried bout this, can u reply me by email?

  15.  #15Paula0126 on June 2, 2011 at 9:42 am

    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks so much for the kind words of support and encouragement! I can feel your love and it is very heart-warming. I shared my story so that others may hopefully learn from it.

    Boomer, thanks for the welcome note. I know how you feel about the “struggle” to love yourself. We have been so used to loving other people that we don’t know how to love ourselves. I think that at the very least, we should love ourselves enough to know when to leave, to recognize that the relationship we are in is not healthy for us.

    Tinque and Femininewoman thank you for your kind notes! It feels like getting a big warm hug!

    AmazingMe, thank you for the support and for the advice. I am okay now. I am honoring my Inner Goddess and the Beautiful Enchanting Siren with me every day. Like I said, he is an extreme example. I am getting to a place where I can just thank him for the lesson, for showing me the kind of qualities in a man that I do NOT want to attract and he has not only provided me with a long list of what these qualities are but he has likewise provided me with the tools and signs on how to recognize the subtle signs of such qualities.

    Rori, thank you so much for your personal note and thank YOU for your life and experience and sharing them with us. I have learned so much. I read your ri’s blog regularly and I find your words as well as the experiences of other women from the blog to be very helpful. I have your e-book and the Modern Siren program and saving up to get the other programs as well. Hearing the exchanges from the blog and the kind support of other women feels to me like we are sirens playing, talking and bathing in the meadows or the beach (as your had beautifully visualized for us in her Modern Siren CD). This blog feels like a safe place to just get our love tank re-charged. Thank you again, everyone!

    SO sorry for the long post! LOVE to you all!

  16.  #16orkid on June 2, 2011 at 10:22 am

    i want get that ebook but how?
    cuz i don’t have credit card and i from Malaysia

  17.  #17Lilybelle on June 2, 2011 at 10:25 am



    You GO with your Siren self, Sister!



  18.  #18FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    Paula, I can relate to your experience (my ex-husband was verbally and physically abusive.) I’m glad to hear that you’re away from it.

    This is a great place to come for support and encouragement. There are many ways to heal and start loving ourselves—but Rori’s work speaks to me the way nothing else ever has at this level. Before I found her, I had very little hope that I would ever be able to ‘change’ and/or have a decent relationship.

    Boomer, I hear ya. I keep thinking I’ll feel better (love myself more) when I lose about 20 pounds. I’m working on it—but you and Paula are so right. I have to love myself FIRST. I think I confuse thoughts with feelings when I look at myself. I become judgemental (too fat, too old, too short, too______) but that comes from my thoughts. I need to FEEL love for myself. Hmmmm…..

    Learning that a “sense of urgency” is a sign that I need to STOP—and use some ‘tools’—instead of forging ahead unprepared from a place of fear is REALLY helping me. (Sometimes it feels like a place of anger–but there’s always something underneath the anger…and for me, it’s usually fear.)

    Baby-steps….progress not perfection…and a few more baby steps… 🙂

  19.  #19FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 12:42 pm


    I hope you’re feeling happy and loved while starting this new chapter of your life. Just want you to know I’m thinking of you…

  20.  #20Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    FlowerChild…let’s check in with each other periodically and see if we are telling ourselves how much we accept ourselves!

    I “tap” on it, and it really gives me goosebumps (literally and figuratively, I suppose), how much I respond to the suggestion that I am freakin’ fabulous and worthy and deeply loved.

    I am slowly getting to the point where I believe me.

  21.  #21LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 12:57 pm


    I think of you often, crossing my fingers that your silence means you overcame the procrastination because you are happily busy with your friend, meeting new acquaintances, a new job and all that.
    I literally imagine love meeting you around the corner.

  22.  #22LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    Elizabeth 349

    ***says things to me about me with contempt in his voice. I couldn’t think of a good word to describe it other than contemptuous. I don’t care if he is kidding or has a dark sense of humor. I don’t like it.It feels like he is trying to “tame me” in a non-benevolent way. ***

    I think in terms of “tame” since the day I’ve read in french “the little prince” from Antoine De Saint-Exupéry.
    I was 10, and it was an assignment in school. I was in Africa, like the pilot in the book.
    I did not like it at first, found it boring. It was a man’s imagination, once more, like most books we were told to read in school.

    Years later in a different country, I was going through a terrible heart break. I was 23.
    One day, I was sat at a friend’s house waiting for her, when my eyes spoted a book, resting on a side table, by my chair. I picked it up. It was “the little prince”, in Spanish. I read it all in one go. Nobody disturbed me, and I forgot I was not even in my home. When I put the book back down on the side table, I was a different woman.
    I was understanding my feelings. I went to buy a copy to keep with me for ever.

    When I was 29, I was pregnant, my husband was away on an international tour, and I went to a library. I bumped onto the little prince in English. I sat there on the floor, in the library, and read it in one go.
    It put another new light on my life yet again. Different from the last time I had read it, but as fulfilling.

    It is a magical book.

    I put the 3 versions in my baby’s room for her to pick them up in any time of her life.

    The book originally written in french uses the word “apprivoiser”.
    “To tame”.
    “ Apprivoiser” means: A is attracted by B, he wants to tame B. He does not want to posses her, he wants her to trust him, to want to be with him.
    A is the one who provides the ritual that will bring the feeling of safety.
    B is the one who handles the time.
    B takes all the time in the world to decide if she feels safe enough to let A step in her vital space.
    B’s reactions tell A when he can approach or not. Taming is about freedom, trust, respect, and patience.

    May be you mean something else, like “dompter” in french.
    “To master”.
    Like when you force a wild horse to get used to men and to work for them. You touch the horse’s body before he trusts you, before he wants you to. You force him to accept your touch. You ride him against his will, to start with. And he will accept you ride him only when he understands that he cannot get rid of you and he has no more strength to fight you. After which you reward him and prove to him he gets to be taken care of when he cooperates. He grows to remember he will get food and care.

    Yet I think what your “friend” does is not “dompter” nor “apprivoiser”.
    It is “briser”, “to crush” the animal spirit or the woman self esteem.
    Probably another wounded man yet…


  23.  #23LobbyStar on June 2, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    Hi all, I’m new here. I just finished watching Targeting Mr. Right… and it was so weird how at least twice during I found myself crying.

    I was seeing a guy for 3 months earlier this year and about 6 weeks ago, out of the blue, he ended it. It was literally one day we were fine and the next, he was gone. I was blindsided. To confuse things for me further, he had begun saying The Three Words to me about 3 weeks before that, and I truly believed he was sincere. I still do believe he meant it, on some level.

    Anyway, it was really interesting as I watched TMR to recognize how many things I was actually doing “right,” according to Rori’s concepts, and how few I was doing “wrong,” all without even knowing it.

    And worse yet, after the breakup, we were still seeing each other 1-2 times a week (at work) and I was leaning back from him, not blatantly ignoring him, but just being too busy doing my own thing to notice him. And it made him bristle, but then I effed it all up by talking to him. So now I don’t know what to do.

    To use a FM, I feel confused.

    But I’m going to do the work and CDate until I figure it out.

  24.  #24Daria on June 2, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    wow i feel awed again at myself

    how gently i am treating myself as i feel my triggers with these men

    yay me

    thank you

  25.  #25Daria on June 2, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    lol what do you guys think of signing up on richmen.com it’s free for women

    i feel kinda excited thinking about it hehe

  26.  #26FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    Hi LobbyStar. I’m rather new here also, but I’m sure the other Sirens can offer up some words of wisdom and suggestions about which ‘tools’ might serve you best–although it sounds like you’re well on your way 🙂

  27.  #27LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    From Dr Pat Allen
    Conversational rape

    Chapter 7


    ___BILL: I’m going to take you out this weekend and
    show you what a really good time is…ha, ha!
    ___MARY: But, Bill, I already have a date.
    ___BILL: Break it.
    ___MARY: Okay, Bill. I’ll do it for you.


    Rape Analysis:
    Bill exhibits the type of performance oriented behavior common to Macho-Super Jocks.
    He is dominating, intimidating, insensitive, pushy, grabby, any and all terms of this nature.

    In effect, however, Bill is probably very frightened and wants to deal with these feelings by over compensating.
    Therefore, he steamrollers Mary.

    She is allowing herself to be raped into a Daisy Daffodil passive position because now she can say,
    “It’s not my fault, he raped me.”

    Mary feigns helplessness when she says,
    “But Bill, but Bill,”
    and Bill overrides her protests, giving Mary the excuse of having been socially raped because he is so pushy.
    In the eventual long-run scheme, however, Bill is the one who would be raped because he would be responsible for Mary and her rape, and the rape of the guy she was supposed to date in the first place.

    In blaming the whole situation on Bill, Mary can collect her angry stamps, and continue her games with other men.

  28.  #28LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Straight Talk

    Were this conversation effectively restated, Bill and Mary could conceivably talk as follows:

    ___BILL: Mary, I want to take you out this weekend
    if you’re available.
    ___MARY: I appreciate your invitation. The fact is, I
    already have a date. Are you willing to ask me
    ___BILL: Sure.

    In the case of women relating to each other, and men, some women control with passivity.
    It is significant and important for a woman to respect a man.
    Since Bill has taken the risk of pursuing or reaching out to Mary, she has a choice.
    She can be helpless and passive or she can be active, self-controlled, and responsible for herself. The latter choice disallows games.

    By her sensitive responsiveness and consideration for his feelings, Mary rejects the invitation respectfully, promoting a willingness on Bill’s part to reach out to her as a woman in the future.

    Macho Super-Jock Bill tends to be very attractive to Daisy Daffodil Mary, in that Daisy is totally in charge of feelings, and Super-Jock is totally in charge of thinking.
    Between the two of them, they become one person.

    On the reverse side, Bertha Balls, or the very performance oriented woman is very attracted to David Daffodil, a very passive character man, in the same way that macho and Daisy are attracted.

    Relationships are based either on rational systems or emotional systems.

    If they’re based on rational systems then the man and woman complement, but do not replace, each other.
    In that way, the man brings a performance process system and woman brings a process performance system into the relationship.
    Both have permission to feel.
    He and she each have a separate responsibility to see that their particular side of the fence is in good repair.
    The man is in charge of problem solving and the woman is in charge of the feeling level.

    In this way, no performance is done which may cause her significant pain and eventually reflect negatively on his performance.

  29.  #29LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Here is another sweet talk conversation:


    ___ALICE: (On the third date) . . . Joe, it’s okay if
    you spend the night rather than drive home.
    ___JOE: Sounds nice, Alice, where do I sleep?
    ___ALICE: Wherever you want.


    Rape Analysis:
    Alice is a pursuer, a performance oriented female. She needed stroking and has opted to use the male system of dynamic pursuit over the female system of magnetic attraction to obtain those strokes.

    In her undercover message, which she has conveyed at the lower game level, she is inviting Joe to play with her sexually.

    Many women allow the intimacy or intercourse when what they really want, are strokes of friendly affection-TLC.

    One of the big promotional abuses in the world today is that women can experience intimate intercourse indiscriminately without hurting themselves.
    Since women are feel-thinkers and need to be safe and trusting for true sexual surrender, a woman who either invites or allows fast sex runs the risk of desensitizing herself to a total orgasmic experience.

    In this dialogue, Bertha Balls Alice is herself being raped of her rights to be a woman.

    She’s not allowing herself to be sensitive, to move slowly, to be courted and pursued by a risk-taking male who knows how to solve problems, knows what he wants and goes after it.
    And our friend, passive David Daffodil Joe is now in the magnificent power position of receiving all of this deep generosity promoted by Bertha.

    Sadly, Bertha is really promoting Daffodil Joe’s passivity.
    Also, Joe’s negative attitude for women, as objects, things to user and play with, is promoted.

  30.  #30LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Straight Talk

    It is my experience that men want to solve problems so that they feel very, very self-reliant.
    They want to feel in charge, in control, responsible, when they do the performance pursuing.

    When Joe is pursued he does not go through the process of problem solving.
    Therefore, he is actually at the mercy of Alice, which in effect undermines his masculinity and promotes his negativity.

    He distrusts her and he will, in effect, use her, abuse
    her, and then leave her for a woman who loves herself more than Alice does.

    In this new choice, Joe has entrusted his feelings to a woman who loves herself enough to be considered
    a worthy trustee of his love feelings.

    Falling in love takes time, it takes effort, but the value is more enduring.

    Relationships are constructed on two different systems.

    One system is very definitely protective, the friendship foundation system.
    It protects the sensitivities of both parties and also
    allows the rational experience of the two elements of compatibility and communication.

    The other system is based on chemical communication between two sensuous people who are more interested in “thing” body strokes than in spiritual love, sharing, and care strokes.

    As long as both people want the same thing, they will be okay.
    The risk comes when one wants love strokes and the
    other wants lust.

  31.  #31LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    People often go to bed in order to eliminate intimacy, because it creates risk-taking pain.

    The massive modern fascination with sexual-chemistry relationships places compatible communication second.

    Relationships based on friendship place compatibility and communication first, and chemistry second.

    Eventually, if the chemistry is there, the inherent negotiation of compatibility and communication will allow the sexual experience in a safe, loving way.

    In consideration of the male, all too often today’s man is being promoted to perform sexually.
    They are ending up with all kinds of sexual dysfunction that they’ve never had before.

    As I said before, when a man solves his problems, he feels more potent and he’s correspondingly more sexually potent as well.
    He is in charge of the situation and when he’s in charge of the situation and behavior, then the female part of him feels safe.

    When a man pursues a woman and he pursues her by being a trustworthy, honorable person then he, in effect, can relax and enjoy himself.

  32.  #32LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    However, a man who has been seduced, raped, and
    manipulated by his woman into thinking he’s responsible for giving her orgasms, is a raped man.

    His problem will be manifested variably, from premature ejaculation to seminal retention, to impotence.

    When the job is not performed, it’s because he knows he shouldn’t perform it.
    The accomplishment is not good for him.
    Don’t blame yourself because you didn’t get the job

    For example, in terms of the premature ejaculator, you’re saying that you had better get your compatibility, friendship and love factors lined up because the chemistry is being damaged.

    Seminal retainers are hanging on.
    You’re really saying that you don’t want to surrender.
    You don’t want to give because there is something inappropriate about the person you are with or, it may be that you have still not resolved about your fear of demanding, taking women.

    Psychologically, the easiest understood sexual dysfunction is impotence.
    Impotence is saying, “I won’t and you can’t make me do it, lady.”

    Men, since they are very much interested in performance, are in charge of the concrete world. They see a pretty body: they want to touch it.
    That is very concrete.
    Women, on the other hand, are in charge of the abstract, spiritual world, and they, in fact, are very much into not being touched unless they feel safe.

    So, when a man sees a pretty girl he responds to her
    When a woman sees a man, she thinks about his
    likability, his lovability.

    When two needy people relate we say they are symbiotic, parasitic.
    They need each other to fulfill themselves.

    Healthy people want each other but do not need.

    I say that people come in two varieties; one shouldering the question “Who am I?” and the other directly an “I,” i.e., “I am myself and I know who I am.”

    Symbiotic people simply do not share.
    They, give, they take but they do not share.
    One is a giver and the other a taker.

    In a sharing relationship, there is also give and take. Additionally they also ask for and refuse from time to time.
    Importantly, however, in a sharing relationship each individual predominantly takes care of themselves first.

    Independent people are internally secure.
    Their childhood were stable and they now feel well loved by people.
    When they seek intimacy, they do so with the capacity to share that love with other people.

    The person who is not internally secure is anxious, constantly looking for love and a safe environment.
    When they find what they think they are looking for, they latch on, creating a mutually needy dependent relationship.
    Both lose, as both people continue to promote a lack of independence or “I” centeredness.

    Straight talk:

    ______ALICE: Joe, I enjoyed our date tonight, and I
    don’t want to feel afraid for your safety. Will
    you be careful when you drive home?
    ______JOE: It was nice, Alice, and I’ll be careful. When
    can I see you again?

    End of chapter 7

    Dr Pat Allen


  33.  #33FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Boomer/#20—Yes, let’s! 🙂

    Is the tapping helping you? I’ve tried it, but to be honest I’m not regular enough about it–haven’t given it an honest go.

    I think this extra weight is from ‘eating my feelings’ and also age related. BUT I’m not going to tell myself that I can’t lose it because of hormones, etc. (It’s hard not to buy into this, though, when every magazine article seems to talk about middle age weight gain and how hard it is to lose it when you’re in peri-menopause, etc.)

    I certainly can stop ‘eating my feelings’ but it’s hard. I’ve been soothing myself with food ever since I can remember. Something I need to work on, for sure.


  34.  #34Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    FlowerChild..I completely understand stuffing down feelings wit food. Only int eh last year have I started to slowly lose the “baby weight” (she’s eight!) by making subtle changes. Feeling better about myself is the real secret, I think!

    I’ll check in with you soon…oh, the tapping…I am sporadic too, but I feel good when I do it.

  35.  #35FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    Thanks, LonePlum, for posting these conversations. I didn’t get it, at first, about Mary saying she already had a date. Are we REALLY supposed to ASK them to ask us again? That sounds like leaning forward. If he really wants to see us won’t he ask again on his own? I’m confused.

    Of course, I see that the guy insisting we stand up another man to go out with him is controlling, rude and wrong.

    I have so much to learn.

  36.  #36kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    35 FlowerChild77,

    It feels like the solution would be boundaries. Mary could say ‘i’d love to. but i’m busy, how about thurs, fri, or sunday?’

  37.  #37kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    I feel judged that my friends say I focus too much on finding a guy.

  38.  #38FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Without offending you or making you angry—maybe they are trying to help you—as in: If the vibe you’re putting out is that you lack a guy and you focus on that quite a bit it will work against you. (LOA)

    Your friends really have no right to judge you and you definitely don’t have to like it—but can you quietly thank them (to yourself, if need be) for bringing your attention to this? Can you look for the lesson and feel gratitude for the awareness created?

    A graceful way to respond might be to say, “Hmmm. Do you really think so? Maybe you’re right.” That’s all you have to say (if you feel like you have to say anything at all.)

  39.  #39kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    Sirenspiration for the day. You Don’t Have To Be Perfect.


  40.  #40Mel on June 2, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    Wow! I just happened to come across an old post of Rori’s that speaks directly to what’s going on in my “marriage” right now.


    “If a man stops treating us, or never did treat us, beautifully as we deserve – we can get bored with him. The co-dependent, pining, waffling, insecure part of us that was throwing ourselves at the feet of a man who didn’t deserve us all of a sudden – when you do the Tools and start to love yourself more intensely than you’ve loved any man – starts to fade.

    And what appears in your mind, heart, body and spirit is a Siren, a Diva, a woman who knows her worth and KNOWS that a good man will make her feel GOOD, not BAD. and instead of feeling pain and grief – you’ll feel disinterest. It’s sort of – you won’t want to be bothered.”

  41.  #41RiverGirl on June 2, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    @ 22
    Wow Lone Plum!
    I loved reading about how you discovered “The Little Prince” I have only really started noticing it in the last year or so, but grew up with the book in the family library. I was an avid reader, but for some reason I didn’t ever read it. Perhaps I was too young and most of it would have gone straight over my head.

    I stumbled upon the fox story online one day and since then the ‘tame me’ quote has been a kind of mantra for me. It is why I fully embrace Rori’s ideas about circular dating. I am looking for a man to step up and tame me, in all the ways you said, with “freedom, trust, respect, and patience”.

    I actually quoted this bit: “To me, you are still nothing more than a little boy who is just like a hundred thousand other little boys. And I have no need of you. And you, on your part, have no need of me. To you I am nothing more than a fox like a hundred thousand other foxes. But if you tame me, then we shall need each other. To me, you will be unique in all the world. To you, I shall be unique in all the world” to a guy once to explain why I didn’t want to be anyone’s “girlfriend” He got it completely.

    I’ve read a few other extracts on line, but I’m intrigued to read the whole story now, especially after reading your take on it, thank you. I’m visiting my parents this afternoon, so I’m going to have a hunt through the bookcase..it should still be there, waiting for the day I was ready to understand it.

  42.  #42Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    Hi, Kaitlyn. Good to see you again. I feel your ick here. I have some friends and family who have said similar things to me:

    – You think/talk about dating/men too much.
    – You date too much.
    – You should focus on your kids, job, ____.
    – It’ll happen when you stop looking.
    – You have to heal first. It takes 1/2/___ years before you’re ready for love again.

    Coincidentally, most of these folks are married or on relationships, so: (.) That’s a grain of salt 🙂

    I dunno, maybe you can examine it, or maybe you can just accept and embrace that you want a relationship and that you’re willing to put your effort and energies into it.

  43.  #43Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    RiverGirl…what a nice thought: waiting for you to be ready for it.

  44.  #44LobbyStar on June 2, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    42: “It’ll happen when you stop looking.”

    Ugh! I hate that one!! And you’re right, it’s usually people who already have someone.

    I know they care about me and just want me to be happy, but UGH! 🙂

  45.  #45LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    39: kaitlyn

    They remind me of Harold and Maude 🙂



  46.  #46Daria on June 2, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    oh im feeling all rollercoastery

    i felt all good cuz the guy i liked came back after me on pof and wrote me romantic messages….

    and then i brought up the issue that felt bad to me and i still feel intense and upset hearing about it

    so i told him


    and im feeling all intense and upset now whereeas i was feeling great earlier

  47.  #47Carol on June 2, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    So, what do you do when a man gets mad at you, yells at you and then walks away and completely disappears. What do you do when you try and get in touch with him and he completely ignores you? What do you do when he sees you months later and acts like nothing happens and wants to talk to you? What do you do when he disappears again and then comes back and then disappears again and comes back. How do you remain civil and keep smiling and remain warm and open. You have already cut of contact with this man and he has cut off contact with you, but because you run into him at work from time to time and he has acted as if nothing has happened, what do you do? How do you move on with your life, when you feel now that your self-esteem is in the gutter? And when you know that you will still see him work-wise every few months or so?

  48.  #48Daria on June 2, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    just cried a lil when i got my fruit smoothie

    am feeling much better

  49.  #49Meemee on June 2, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    I loved reading your post on The Little Prince 🙂

  50.  #50LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    I love this woman!

    That’s one link I’m gonna add to my favourites in my browser 🙂


  51.  #51LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 4:45 pm

    49 Meemee

    Hey! Meemee! How are you feeling today?


  52.  #52Jeannette on June 2, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    I am trying to understand….why do we as women stay in relationships far longer then we should. Looking at Paula’s message and her visiting her bf, it reminded me of my last relationship, long distance, and how one time, just ONE TIME ONLY, I was able to go out and visit him in a period of 2 years we were dating. He came here obviously most of the time. Okay….so I told him I booked the airline ticket. “Oh, no!” He said, can you just go and see your sister instead??!” My ex wifes stuff is still in boxes in the kitchen and she has to come and get the rest of the stuff. And, “Oh yea, my mower broke down and I maybe won’t have the grass cut in time!!” Give me a done gone break buddy!! He was acting like we were in a relationship before I said I was coming to visit. How stupid of me. Well I went to see him ANYWAY. HA!! So I was down there and he treated me okay and finally said he was glad to see me. But 6 mo.s later when I wanted to come down again….guess what…..? He said, “Oh what’s the use! Why are we beating our heads against a brick wall?” This relationship is just too hard to maintain. BUT…if I didn’t talk of going down to see him, he’d call me just about everyday. And come up and see me every 3 mo.s The part I couldn’t figure was why did he call me before bedtime if he was seeing someone else?! Who in the hell knows? I was ridiculous for hanging around as long as I did….that is all I know!!

  53.  #53Meemee on June 2, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    Carol says “What do you do when he sees you months later and acts like nothing happens and wants to talk to you?”
    I wonder whether this is a typical male reaction.
    Every single friend of mine told me something of this sort. I have had similar experience from people. But i had experiences like this from women too. People whom I am very close to behaving in an insensitive way and in bad ways, and then after days or weeks, behaving like nothing happened.
    I dont know when I say “male” i mean biological male. But i feel tempted to associate certain behaviors as “male”.
    Hmmmm. feeling confused.

  54.  #54Daria on June 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    “i feel turned off by this good-luck thing, i don’t want to have a man ‘walk’ away from me when stuff gets intense… and i respect whatever you decide anyway

    i wonder what this is about for me that i brought this whole issue to my attention? i know i felt like crying and i felt helpless and rageful thinking about it

    thank you for showing up for me, giving me your attention and making me feel good – i don’t want to judge you at all and i feel misunderstood to read that about conclusions… i don’t have any conclusions here –

    it seems you feel really strongly about this issue… what is really going on? i want to hear what you think and feel… and sometimes it feels overwhelming and i feel like i cant handle it

  55.  #55Meemee on June 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    I am feeling good today.
    Its 5 am here in India.
    Not getting any sleep.
    So sitting and finishing a freelance project work.
    I think of you every day 🙂 🙂

  56.  #56Senior Lady Vibe on June 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    @18: FlowerChild77 says:
    “…I become judgemental (too fat, too old,…”

    So, does your username mean you are 77 years old… or not yet… or past…?

    Or you can keep it a secret. 😆


  57.  #57Daria on June 2, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    except im not gonna write to him because he’s already like “good-luck and i really like you” and that’s the third time i’ve heard that from him and am feeling turned off

    so i will respect his decision and let him walk away…

  58.  #58Senior Lady Vibe on June 2, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    @25: Daria says:
    “…lol what do you guys think of signing up on richmen.com it’s free for women..”

    Hi Daria, sure I’d join up! If you still don’t believe in money… does this mean the guys are “rich” as in “extra buttery” as Brenda puts it… tee hee 😆

    I’m happy you are getting lots of new guys!!!


  59.  #59Meemee on June 2, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    “I am trying to understand….why do we as women stay in relationships far longer then we should.”

    Wow. I asked this question at least a million times to myself. I got different answers from myself at different points in the last one year.
    But this moment if I ask myself this question, I feel my answer would be ” It was needed that I go through certain amount of humiliation/pain/(whatever) before I decided to step into self esteem”.

  60.  #60Daria on June 2, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    Rori e-letter:

    “Leslie, Here’s my advice: Being with men is like riding a bicycle or a horse.

    When you fall down, you have to get right up and get back on and ride, otherwise you’ll develop fear.

    I’ve seen women hibernate for years and years because they didn’t get up on that dating bicycle again. (I did it myself for 2 years, and when I went back to dating, I was just as stupid as I was when I was dumped 2 years back – I’d made significant strides in my personal self, but with men I hadn’t learned a thing.)”

  61.  #61kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    “Leslie, Here’s my advice: Being with men is like riding a bicycle”

    Only without the seat.

  62.  #62Senior Lady Vibe on June 2, 2011 at 5:12 pm

    @39: kaitlyn says:
    “…Sirenspiration for the day. You Don’t Have To Be Perfect.”

    Thanks for the link. Fabulous blog. I’ll have fun with it.


  63.  #63kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 5:14 pm

    62 SLV I love fashion blogs that are quirky. Check out brianboy .com also

  64.  #64Island Girl on June 2, 2011 at 5:17 pm

    @61 Kaitlyn – Lol! 😉

  65.  #65Lilybelle on June 2, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    I am home. Meeting with OlderDude was one hour exactly.


    I am correct to follow my preferences surrounding older dudes for me but hey, I did it and now I know.

    I feel proud that I followed through, even though I wanted to cancel. And again, Now I know.

  66.  #66kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    I leaned forward and emailed Adam this morning. Because I hadn’t heard from him in a week since he called me.

    I just wrote ‘and…i miss you, too.’ In reference to on the phone call, he said he missed me and I said I miss him, too.

    But now he’s written back ‘tell me more.’

    When he uses that phrase, as he has before when we were dating, it’s an indication of interest. What do I say back?

  67.  #67Senior Lady Vibe on June 2, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    @63: kaitlyn
    “Check out brianboy .com ..”

    OK. Thanks, I’ll check it out. I’m not the glamour type at the moment. I might have to change a bit. I am a big “Project Runway” fan though.


  68.  #68Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    Carol I have seen Rori suggest standing up to that man. If he keeps coming in your face maybe tell him how you feel and ask him please to respect your feelings but you are done. I have used “I have moved on with my life and I think you should do the same”. Look through Rori’s Self Esteem category, you will find a lot of information there.

  69.  #69Senior Lady Vibe on June 2, 2011 at 5:30 pm

    @66: kaitlyn says:
    “…What do I say back?..”

    More… Update news. etc See if he “offers” something?


  70.  #70Lilybelle on June 2, 2011 at 5:30 pm

    For pete’s sake, he asked me if I was born premature. What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Apparently, I have peach fuzz on my neck.

    Where is the damn razor?


  71.  #71Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 5:30 pm

    RE 66 kaitlyn I have seen another relationship coach suggest using that phrase to get men to open up and connect on an emotional level.

  72.  #72Senior Lady Vibe on June 2, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    @70: Lilybelle says:
    “…For pete’s sake, he asked me if I was born premature. What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?…”

    ROFL 😆 [those are friendly chuckles…]


  73.  #73Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    Lilybelle is that one of the little “flaws” you think a man would not love about you? Remember you never know.

  74.  #74Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    RE 33 Flowerchild to be honest I believe it was when Rori put up that tapping post that I stopped eating and pushing down my feelings. I amaze myself these days when I check on what I have eaten. 90% of days it is healthy. Regarding tapping I do it in the shower in the mornings without even thinking and while driving. Sometimes my mind just drift into it especially when I am feeling sad. Doing the meridians really bring up intense feelings though and I can feel it moving around my body. Check out susanquinn.com

  75.  #75Lilybelle on June 2, 2011 at 5:42 pm


    I’m following SLV’s lead here. LOL!! 🙂 What’s a girl gonna do except chuckle. And, take the opportunity to fine tune my wants. Preemie, indeed. HAHAHA

    I did not find one thing attractive about OlderDude except that he smelled good. I’m sure he is a nice guy, but I felt a bit condescended a couple of times and when he would ask me a question, I would start to answer and then when I would pause, he would answer the same question about himself. I bet that happened half a dozen times.

    He spoke of all his ex girlfriends, the non-relationship with his ex wife, his love of cars and when he asked me what I enjoyed doing, I gave one answer, paused..and he took off again on the “smoked mirror” in sports and that wrestling is the only sport that is real…. ???? Um, okay OlderDude. 😉

    I found out that one ex gf was a ldr and she always drove to him, his son lived in his car for a couple months because he wouldn’t help him out….

    Whew, that was a lot in an hour.

  76.  #76Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    RE 32 Thanks Loneplum, you are a gem.

  77.  #77FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    SLV#56 I’m laughing… 🙂 No, I’m not 77 yet. I graduated high school in 1977–I’m 51. But I will say that I fully intend to be a Siren when I am 77 (and past!) My friend and I always joke about how we wanna be having sex until we die or at least until we’re very, very old! Silly, as niether of us are having any sex right now! 😉

    I have no qualms about telling my age. For me, everything has gotten better as I age and I like it(since my forties, really, I started noticing that.)

  78.  #78Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 5:49 pm

    RE 75 Sounds like draining your energy and maybe he needed someone to finally listen to him. That can leave one feeling like a talking post. Sorry sis

  79.  #79kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 5:50 pm

    Can I say? ‘it felt good when you called me the other day. i got pretty emotional in a good way when you said you missed me. I feel shy right now, but I will open up the more we get to know each other again. I’d like that. I always feel taken care of when you write and call me. I haven’t melted like that in a long time.’

  80.  #80Lilybelle on June 2, 2011 at 5:53 pm


    It’s all good, FW.



  81.  #81DE on June 2, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    LonePlum #22:

    I loved the post …I feel enticed to read it the story as well …thank you…

    Warm hugs,

  82.  #82DE on June 2, 2011 at 5:55 pm


    Also thank you for posting Dr. Pat Allen’s insights on dating…I had quite a few Aha moments reading them 🙂

    Warm hugs,

  83.  #83Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 5:56 pm

    Hi SLV!
    Still cheeky I see 🙂

    Kaitlyn , “Tell me more” ….he wants you to lean forward..he is inviting you to put it out there ..what you want , how you feel , etc. Maybe he just wants to know if you are still interested in him.

    If you respond you need to be able to do it knowing he may not reply at all , or in a positive way. That is you need to be able to live with the discomfort of having leaned forward and getting no result . If this is ok then contact him.

    I feel uncomfortable about that as I expect he would write more if he wanted to write more .

    If you think encouragement is needed (and I think you have been encouraging already) ..you could try something like ..

    ” It feels good to have some contact again. But I also feel uncertain and a little confused about what contact you would like? . I feel comfortable with emails and happy to have you call .”

  84.  #84FlowerChild77 on June 2, 2011 at 5:57 pm

    Thank you FW…I did check out the Susan Quinn site. If that’s what’s working for you maybe I should stick with that. There are SO many things for tapping and meditation on youtube, it’s hard to know which ones to choose.

    I do eat quite healthy, but I have a wicked sweet-tooth. I’m working on it…

  85.  #85LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 5:58 pm

    70: Lilybelle

    *** For pete’s sake, he asked me if I was born premature. What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? ***
    You looked too young for him ?

    *** Apparently, I have peach fuzz on my neck.
    Where is the damn razor?***
    Don’t cut your wrists for a peach, please. 


    I would answer something like : “Yep! And yet I was too late to catch your century. It had already died.

  86.  #86DE on June 2, 2011 at 6:06 pm


    Oh, sad to hear about u feeling a bit disappointed 🙁 I have mine next…

    This morning and throughout the day, I had txts from 3 different guys…not bad considering i went online last nite…

    I had an interesting exchange with J (the guy I am suppose to meet in an hour) over txt messaging this morning that I actually feel good about…

    At some point, he sent me his pic over the phone without me asking…
    I responded..”Wow, handsome :)”
    He followed “Can u send me one of u?”

    I immediately noticed feeling resistant and kind of shutting off…so, I sank into my feelings…i felt uncomfortable…
    So, I decided to express “Hmm…at this moment, I feel resistant to sharing…a bit uncomfortable…:( my match pics are pretty recent…”
    He responded “I understand. No worries”
    I responded “thank you…wow…i feel accepted and therefore safe to send u one now…:)”
    He said “very pretty” and then one more saying “thank u “…

    So, tonite, I will practice on moi again, and again….i kind of feel anxiety in my tummy…feels like butterflies…weird…

    Warm hugs,

  87.  #87kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 6:07 pm


    What do you feel about my #79? No, thats not the beef and broccoli. lolz

    What about tweaking Rosa’s idea with:

    ” It feels good to have some contact again. But I also feel uncertain and a little confused about what contact you would like? I absolutely am taking you up on your offer to hang out, but until you’re back in LA, I feel totally open to emails and happy to have you call.”

  88.  #88Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    I am thinking about angry men.

    My ex husband (now ex for 9 years) was a very passive aggressive angry man. He never yelled, he never said anything , he just left the room. He had big blue eyes , and they would get all starey and hard and aggressive and he would just ignore me and go to his home office . It became his habit . I never saw him and he would sleep in the guest room , for years.

    I now know I was very bad at verbalising my needs and had many faults as far as communication went but I found this kind of anger very dark and difficult to deal with.

    I now have a CD who is “irritable” when things dont go smoothly ..he gets all het up if the service is a little slow in a restaurant , especially if they dont pick up his card and do the check when he is ready to leave. I have noticed this now on 2or 3 occasions. He looked irritated because the bathrooms werent where I thought they were at the gallery. He has never been directly irritable with me but I am sure that he is very capable of it. It means he has red flags attached. He is in fact a perfect gentleman in every other way.

    I feel uncomfortable and awkward . I have not expressed that yet. If it happens again , now I recognise the pattern, I need to give a FM. The behaviours are so SUBTLE , an irritated glance, impatient waving at the waiter etc..

    I struggle to see how to give the FM without being accusatory . Do i need to wait for a bigger example?
    Maybe he was just having a bad day?

  89.  #89DE on June 2, 2011 at 6:11 pm


    Wow, A’s request “Tell me more”…reminds me of my ex “J”…he used to say the same when he was horny…:(

    I would definitely out-girl him…by staying focus on u…
    “wow…i feel happy to hear back from u…” “i feel a bit lonely…i miss being hugged and loved…”…

    i would stay away from using the word “u” in the sentence…

    Btw…I think u are doing great 🙂

    Warm hugs,

  90.  #90kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    Really, all Sirens are welcome. I heart advice!!!! Of course, TINQUE is welcome. : )

  91.  #91Lilybelle on June 2, 2011 at 6:12 pm


    Oh. my. Goodness, LP~

    His favorite fruit is a peach. LOL!!!

    I was thinking about shaving my neck. 😉 NOT really.


  92.  #92Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    RE 79 kaitlyn if I was going to write anything it would be how I feel doing my work, the excitement of the project, how exhilirated I felt when I was working out. In other words how I feel about my busy and exciting life since we last connected. What you wrote there suggests you missed him desperately. I might be wrong but I would be careful I don’t come across as needy. I might end with I always feel taken care of when you ask me about my life.

  93.  #93Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    I like that Kaitlyn, does it feel authentic for you?
    And if he says “yeah…call me any time you like “, will you still ok that he doesnt step up?

    If yes and yes then send it.

  94.  #94Lilybelle on June 2, 2011 at 6:17 pm

    DE~ I will be waiting on the edge of my seat to hear about tonights meeting.

    I love that he understood your discomfort surrounding picture sending via phone. I feel the same knot in my stomach when that happens..I feel happy that he accepted and understood your feelings and found a way to have you feeling more comfortable. I’ll bet he has butterflies in his tummy too! 😉

    Thinking of you and sending you lots of energy and love~

  95.  #95kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 6:17 pm

    93 no, i won’t be. that’s why doing this is a delicate thing.

  96.  #96Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    Rosa I said to one recently I sense you are impatient, are you? He said after a pause, I have been told that.

  97.  #97Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:20 pm

    Actually I have had a rethink Kaitlyn about the bigger picture. I want to change my suggestion.

    I agree with DE and FW about focusing on you .

    I actually didint consider the history , that he had ended things and done the walkaway . I think in this settling that it really is essential not to lean forward in any way .

    I believe that he knows you are open already . And I like that you out girl him if possible .

    I think no email for another few days is the best option. He knows where you are and he knows you are open.

  98.  #98Laughing Goddess on June 2, 2011 at 6:21 pm


    I, personally wouldn’t send that message. You’ve been sooooo good at leaning back and letting him come to you, an he is responding. The energy of your message above feels a little controlling, directive to me. Maybe impatient.

    Maybe it could be softened a bit?

  99.  #99Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:24 pm

    LG hope you are progressing well on your project. You have been quiet lately. Miss your positive vibes.

  100.  #100Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:25 pm

    I like that FW

    “I sense you are impatient, are you?”

    I want to say , I feel awkward and embarrassed, cant you see how busy they are ? I dont like feeling rushed or pressured. I want to feel relaxed out for dinner with you ..

    Actually its more than that, its my internal alarm going off ..

    I feel my cringe factor going off!
    This means I am fearful that you are an angry 53 year old bachelor who is never happy with peoples imperfections!!!!!

  101.  #101Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:30 pm

    RE 100 Rosa I understand but for me, that feels like tongue lashing a brat. I would just decline his offer for another date after maybe two dates. If he insists on asking why I would just say I don’t feel we are a match, it’s just a gut feeling. No explanations.

    All you said might be true but I would gamble he already knows. I also believe he might be unhappy with himself.

  102.  #102Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    LP’s post@30

    “It is my experience that men want to solve problems so that they feel very, very self-reliant.
    They want to feel in charge, in control, responsible, when they do the performance pursuing.

    When Joe is pursued he does not go through the process of problem solving.
    Therefore, he is actually at the mercy of Alice, which in effect undermines his masculinity and promotes his negativity.”

  103.  #103LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    55: Meemee

    ***I think of you every day ***
    No wonder you can’t sleep !

  104.  #104Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    RE 102 That was an excerpt from relationship coach Pat Allen’s book.

  105.  #105LonePlum on June 2, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    Memee needs an exorcist

  106.  #106Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Yes FW , I think the message is that a FM is difficult here because the problem is being picked up on my internal radar , not an overt incident to respond to.

    I think declining dates is a definite option , but as he travels a lot , has not stepped up to relationship mode, is not sexual with me currently , well for all of those reasons i may continue to see him as a friend only.The dates are great fun and it allows me to get all the CD experience and benefits.

    I am more interested in another CD currently , Doctor guy , he is patient, calm and lots of other good things. He is still not divorced though so must remain a CD only at this stage .

  107.  #107kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 6:39 pm

    Y’all are right about needing to out-girl him since his ‘tell me more’ beckons a lean forward on my part…ew.

    thus, i’m combining this with fw’s ‘focus on me.’ how about:

    ‘more magazine accounts means i’ve been prolific and feel accomplished again, and i bought my dream Leica for my birthday and am shooting more personal stuff just for me. plenty has happened the past months…learning video has me dreaming in 24p, working out still has me feeling radiant, i still read like a fiend, and practice bass.

    I always feel taken care of when you ask about me. And, yes, I melted when you called.



  108.  #108Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:40 pm

    I am lying on a hospital bed right now having my monthly treatment . It is sunny and feels hot on my legs through the window . I feel quite relaxed and happy , which feels GOOD , chatting to Sirens ..

    (every month I am here for 12 years now and it usually feels bad , reminds me of my health issues).

  109.  #109kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 6:43 pm


    I hope all gets better for you and your mom. I’m glad it feels warm over there for you two.

  110.  #110Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    I got rearended by a man this afternoon. He got out of the car and yelled into the air once. Then he took charge told me to pull over to the side and exchange info. He was masculine taking charge. He gave me his info and then said he had his son to pick up so didn’t want to wait for the cops. I checked my body and there were no alarms, I was calm from the moment it happened. I expressed to him my reservations around not getting a police report and past experience where people were dishonest. He said things to get me feeling comfortable and said he would never do that to anyone. He seemed so authentic and apologetic. He was driving a mustang, 1 of 170. I second guessed myself, his honesty but deep down I felt I could trust him. I wasn’t hurt it is only the bumper that go damaged so I decided to trust my instincts. I took his information including his phone number and driver’s license number. I stood there and told him I wanted to check his number to ensure it was correct. He put the phone down on the car so I could see it ringing. Some might say I was stupid but for some reason I felt like it happened for a reason. I checked myself to see if I felt I could trust him. I paid attention to how much he was trying to help me feel safe and taken care of. He came up close to me right into my space and I did not draw back. I noticed I am in a calmer place on the inside of me and that I was not angry. I believe it was another message from the Universe to show me that I am shifting internally.

  111.  #111Laughing Goddess on June 2, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    FW: Awwww, thanks sister!

    My project is coming along. I finished a big chunk yesterday and am resting a bit today. Then I will get back at it until my deadline Monday.

    I’m having to rush due to my own procrastination. I actually feel relieved that the deadline is coming up because I am reading to wrap this up. I’m noticing that I seem to need outside pressure to get motivated. What’s that about? Learning and growing every day.

    Mostly though, I feel positive. I’ve been approaching this work with my LOA awareness and things are flowing so much smoothly than before. I feel really good about that. I feel hopeful and inspired.

  112.  #112Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    Carol @47

    Just read this series of questions about the reappearing man.

    Carol if he is not stepping up and making you feel GOOD instead of BAD , then you sack him.

    Otherwise you CD and use him only for practice.

  113.  #113Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:46 pm

    RE 108 Rosa it is great also that it reminds you that you are living. Enjoy the bits of the ride that you can.

  114.  #114kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 6:47 pm

    110 FW, for some reason i got turned on during that story.

  115.  #115Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:48 pm

    RE 111 LG I believe negative motivation. I do that too, procrastinate. Seems I believe I need the pressure to get my creative juices flowing.

  116.  #116Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 6:49 pm

    Ohh, Kaitlyn, I like that reply! How Siren-y are You???

  117.  #117Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    I know why kaitlyn it was deliberate. See how sensitive we are when we really pay attention?

  118.  #118Laughing Goddess on June 2, 2011 at 6:52 pm

    Kaitlyn: I don’t see his “tell me more” as beckoning you to lean forward. I see it as an invitation to really be authentic and share your deep inner self, that magical feminine allure that men are magnetically drawn to.

    Deep down what do you really want to say to him?

  119.  #119Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    It is really OK FW . Its one day a month and it keeps me healthy . Nothing to do with the breast cancer. I still work 34 weeks , and do everything I want pretty much . I just feel a bit sorry for myself lying in hospital with an infusion running evry month.

    I have a secret deal with myself that one day my man will be around to take me to hospital and pick me up , and make me feel special and cared for. My ex-husband, never ONCE did that for me, never once became involved in the process in any way and never once did any thing like take care of dinner that night after my IVs . This is a big hurt I am healing slowly, that he was so neglectful.

    I will do some tapping on this one.
    I did one on menopause today already.

  120.  #120Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    I loved that you were taken care of FW, by Mr Rearender
    Its a lovely story, made me feel all gooey.

  121.  #121kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    116 Boomer, after i proof read it, i felt a perk of siren. i feel glad that a writer as visceral as you liked it.

    and sometimes his ‘tell me more’ when we dated was a sexual thing. so, just in case, the ‘i melted’ was meant to feel sensual. not sexual. i dont feel safe with that yet. but i want to.

  122.  #122Femininewoman on June 2, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Yeah I considered him a surprise CD.

  123.  #123Laughing Goddess on June 2, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    FW: Mmmmm I felt so yummy reading your story.

  124.  #124Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 7:09 pm


    “I feel uncomfortable and awkward . I have not expressed that yet. If it happens again , now I recognise the pattern, I need to give a FM. The behaviours are so SUBTLE , an irritated glance, impatient waving at the waiter etc.”

    Oh, boy, do I know THIS feeling from my ex-husband. He was always negative and complaining and finding conspiracies in everything. In retrospect, I often felt uncomfortable, drained, and worried about it rubbing off on me. And it did for a time.

    This is so exhausting, I know, especially when he’s not particularly “wrong.” It was just…WHY so negative all the time??

    I don’t know how to address it in FMs without accusing. I look back at my own marriage to a negative man, and I still don;t know what I could have done differently. But it became clear shortly after we were married that I was dealing with some fairly serious mental illness and not just negativity. You are so right to see it as a red flag. Not saying that he is mentally ill, but do trust your intuition here.

    Does anyone else know how to frame non-accusatory FMs for really uncomfortable situations where what the guy is doing is actually causing your discomfort?

  125.  #125Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    Lillybelle, oh no on OlderGuy!!!! I’m sorry. But yes, you met your judgments where they live and you were open to something new. Good for you. As my mama used to say, “You can’t marry everyone,” so chalk it up to “now I know.”

    Bummer. It’s always nice to be pleasantly surprised, isn’t it?

  126.  #126Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    FW, thank goodness you were not hurt or that there was not more damage. I so admire your quiet maturity.

  127.  #127Boomer on June 2, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    I’m visceral!? Huh, I find I feel just fine with that 🙂

  128.  #128Laughing Goddess on June 2, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    FW: Well, the part about you getting rear ended was concerning but overall the story felt good somehow.

  129.  #129Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 7:48 pm

    Doctor man just emailed, wants to cook me barbecue Sun night and wanting to book ahead for the following weekend and asked what I would like . This feels GOOD.
    I emailed 3 things I would like to do, zoo, cliff top walk, ferry rides , and said he can choose anything or just surprise me . This feels about right to me as far as leaning back but sharing input.

    I dont want to discourage a man from asking my opinion but I do want him to plan the dates.

  130.  #130pat on June 2, 2011 at 7:58 pm

    sounds manipulative

  131.  #131kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 8:01 pm


    What sounds manipulative? Rosa? Or her date? Confused.

  132.  #132Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    I am interested that it reads that way Pat.
    I feel good about it however:)

  133.  #133Rosa on June 2, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    Do other Sirens believe that expressing a preference when a man asks is manipulative if you then give it back to him to organise?

  134.  #134Lucy on June 2, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    Kaitlyn, I don’t know if it’s too late – I haven’t read all the way down – but I LOVE #79! I think it is perfect. My eyes just flew open when I read it – it felt so vulnerable, authentic, inviting, and attractive. <3

  135.  #135Lucy on June 2, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    # 107 seems masculine to me 🙁 … and “trying too hard” and inauthentic. Sorry if I am wrong.

  136.  #136kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 8:16 pm

    Not sure what’s better…my #79 or my #107?

    Or a combo of thereof? hmmmn. I haven’t sent anything yet.

  137.  #137kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    135 Lucy,

    My guy friend said that, too.

  138.  #138kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    Another hint into A’s personality: he gets passive aggressive when he feels manipulated.

  139.  #139kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 8:24 pm

    And he’s very smart. He can totally detect inauthenticity. But I can’t seem too needy because no guy, especially in my sordid breakup situation, wants that.

  140.  #140Lucy on June 2, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    Kaitlyn, to me, the difference btwn neediness and vulnerability is that neediness anxiously depends on the guy to “make it all better,” while vulnerability bravely depends on self-love to “make it better” if he can’t or won’t when we open our hearts. <3

  141.  #141Daria on June 2, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    When. I sit still i feel all the shame i feel.

    And hopelessnessof ever healing it

    Like abig lake

  142.  #142DE on June 2, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    Wow…I feel like crying…It was a great 1st meeting…:)

    He told me I am a breath of fresh air…gosh, he gave me so many wow descriptions I was taken by surprised the whole time…

    At the end…he told me he would like to see me again…I answered “i would love that”…he said “i don’t want to pressure u, but let me know…” i thought for a minute and i answered “well, sat nite i have free if that works for u”…he answered “well, even if i had something going on…it’s all gone for u…what do u want to do? anything u want, the world is yours…” i answered..”wow…i would love to feel surprised…”
    he said “okay then, surprise should be!”

    Hmm…he just txt me that he enjoyed meeting me and can’t wait for Sat…:)

    wow…i have two more guys to talk to tonite 🙂

    I feel happy 🙂 Gosh, but my NVs are kicking in…:( “don’t get too excited…happy endings are not for u…”….oh, no…now i am crying…i still have healing to do…

  143.  #143Elizabeth on June 2, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    22. Loneplum

    “the little prince”

    “It is a magical book.”

    yes it surely is! thank you for sharing your experiences around it! I feel so delighted! I have two copies in my house, an original paperback and a picture book. i want to read it again. i’m sure it will have new meaning for me, too!

    I once saw a live performance of it with my children. It was magical, too.

    It’s funny, i signed up on one of the dating sites about a year or so ago, but did not make a profile or put any photos. My name, however, was “Invisible to the eye”, based on the famous quote from the book , “It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.”
    one of my favorite quotes ever…..

    …..somehow that makes me think of that line from a bob dylan song that I recently heard …”you’re invisible now, you’ve got no secrets to conceal…..”

    Your explanations of the differences of
    “tame”: “apprivoiser” “dompter” “briser”
    are quite illuminating, too!

    “Probably another wounded man yet…”

    Yes. He is. He cannot do “apprivoiser”. Maybe he could read “The Little Prince” and learn something.

    ahhhh….i love synchronicities



  144.  #144Xti on June 2, 2011 at 8:57 pm

    ahhhh sirens…. I am struggling this week.

    My wonderful long-distance CD has come to visit for a week and returned home, and now he’s coming back in a couple months for an even longer stay.

    He’s kind. He’s generous. He’s doting. He’s consistent.

    He tells me I’m beautiful at least once a day. And yet…

    Why is there a yet? Always a yet?

    Reading Rosa’s #88 hit home. And Boomer, your last question in #124… well, I was hitting F5 so fast looking for a response from anyone because I’m wondering too.

    He and I talked on the phone tonight. I talked about how I feel distrustful in situations where intimidation is the method used to impose a person’s will on others.

    I didn’t even connect that he would internalize my comments, because I was authentically speaking about myself. But he did.

    He responded that he has done that in the past, but he doesn’t anymore…because he does it at work and gets it out of his system. He said he never wants to be like that with me. He wants me to trust him, so he’s making sure to be completely honest with me.

    This lead us into an even deeper discussion about being open and vulnerable…. which was good, but couldn’t take my mind off how I’ve seen him get agitated…easily, fast and over nothing. Like a cloudburst and then the sun comes back out.

    and now I’m feeling overwhelmed. I can’t take on another project man. Wondering if it’s red flags….or my own fears?

  145.  #145Elizabeth on June 2, 2011 at 9:22 pm


    “Does anyone else know how to frame non-accusatory FMs for really uncomfortable situations where what the guy is doing is actually causing your discomfort?”

    Boomer, I am working with and getting a lot out of a framework where you can address something someone said or did as causing your feeling, but still take responsibility for it. ” I feel_____when you______because I_____”

    so, for instance, i’m just playing with this, throwing it out there, practicing….

    “I felt very uncomfortable when you said that to the server, because my need to see others being treated respectfully was not being met. I was a server once, and it’s not an easy job (or, I can’t imagine that is an easy job having to keep so many people happy at the same time). I would much rather see customers try to make her job easier rather than more difficult. That might even help us to get even better service! What do you think?”


  146.  #146Xti on June 2, 2011 at 9:26 pm

    oh and minor detail…. in our convo tonight, he casually slipped this in, “I’m in for the long haul.”

    I know I’m still deciding on how I feel about him, but he has made it crystal clear how he feels about me.

    I feel conflicted. I read things that say “If a man is X, Y or Z… Run!”

    I give people the benefit of the doubt. I trust. I believe. I adore these qualities in myself. I want to protect them. I cherish my naivete.

    And yet…. those who love me say that these qualities mean I don’t see the truth in people…and I don’t know when I should walk away.

    When a man is kind to his family, but rude to strangers… or tactless… or [insert behavior here]… Should it be a dealbreaker?

  147.  #147kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    A stepped up and called!

    I didn’t have to write anything! First, I started off with being warm and appreciative that he called. “Aww, A, you’re taking a break at work and callig me? That feels really nice. I like that.” Then we shot the sh1t about superficial fluff. We opened up a lot to each other. It felt uncomfortable at first. So, I said f__ it, just tell this guy what you feel. After he breaks the silence, of course. Lean back, Kaitlyn.

    I said, “I feel so relaxed we’re talking like this, but I feel a bit nervous because I’m afraid of being too much, like scaring you off.”

    I felt his vibe shift to more soothed, though it took him a while of silence. He said quietly, “I’m fine with it. Just relax.”

    Sucks he still doesn’t know if he’s staying here or not when he comes. I didn’t express any feelings about it. I just listened. I want to feel open instead of expressing resistance even though it bothers me that he might not end up living here, and his “I don’t know how often you make it to the East Coast…” didn’t feel good to me. But it seems, he’s a guy, and he’s not planning us that far ahead; i mean, we have to go on the date first when he gets here.

  148.  #148Rori Raye on June 2, 2011 at 10:39 pm

    Rosa – just perfect. Your instincts are great. Love, Rori

  149.  #149Island Girl on June 2, 2011 at 10:55 pm

    Kaitlyn… <3 Yay! I'm so happy he called and things went so well. I'm really impressed by
    "I said, “I feel so relaxed we’re talking like this, but I feel a bit nervous because I’m afraid of being too much, like scaring you off.”"

    Just try and remember that if those little nv's start in — they're just voices… 🙂 You were great!

  150.  #150kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 11:37 pm

    149 My nv’s started happening a bit whilst talking to him. when he said ‘relax’ he seemed a bit tensed up from feeling my vibe of nv’s.

    when he said he’s gonna have to live in a motel here because he has no place to stay, i ALMOST offered to have him stay here. that way he could afford to stay in town much longer. i offered that before paris and he accepted.

    BUT I DIDNT SAY A WORD. the old me would’ve offered. i am so proud of myself. besides, poor guy is probably all tuckered out from estrogen overload from that convo, though i tried rousing his masc energy with fw’s and leaning back. and not giving advice.

  151.  #151Lucy on June 2, 2011 at 11:42 pm

    Aw Kaitlyn, I am so proud of you too! So happy things are going better for you. <3

  152.  #152Lucy on June 2, 2011 at 11:44 pm

    I feel giddy – I have a new cute Australian cyber-man… I can hear his hot accent in my head when I read his msgs. Hehe. 🙂

  153.  #153kaitlyn on June 2, 2011 at 11:58 pm

    lucy, thanks for your advice.

  154.  #154Daria on June 3, 2011 at 1:27 am

    im sorry for judging you

    i cant deal with words that are abusive it feels terrible to me 🙁

    i don’t want to lose you

    what can we do?

  155.  #155kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 2:06 am

    A few times on phone, I got over eager and could tell he was sensing it and he was getting yuck about it. So, I’d do damage repair by saying nothing and letting him fill in the long pauses.

  156.  #156Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:12 am

    kaitlyn let him lead. It will be alright.

  157.  #157Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:47 am


    I think you have every reason to feel excited about last nights meeting with NewDude#1. So exciting.


    You know what to do with those NV’s…they are lying to you and will do so at every turn.

    Such good stuff and it sounds like a wonderful evening.

    I love a man who shows me that I have the WOW factor, even if I know it..I do like him to show it too. 🙂

  158.  #158Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:49 am


    Lucy, haven’t you been desiring an Australian man???? He sounds delicious. I do love an accent, too.


  159.  #159Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:54 am


    So excited to read about your phone call, Kaitlyn.

    I think you did beautifully.

    Have a wonderful Friday!


  160.  #160Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:58 am


    Rosa, I love the idea of giving options and then letting him decide the final answer. You still get to be surprised and you know it will be something that you enjoy.

    Seems like a win-win to me. He doesn’t have to guess. I bet he liked that.


  161.  #161Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 4:02 am



    I do feel proud knowing that I did something out of my comfort zone, hit it head on and can firmly say now I really DO know. 🙂

    Learning every day feels good to me. I am still open to older men, just not quite that much older than I. There was a vast difference, visually between the two of us…and he did not look like his photograph at all.

  162.  #162Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 4:07 am

    Thanks Rori, Its good to have a caring overlooker errmmm , looking over!

    Instincts …yes I feel it in my body . My instinct is to enjoy these dates with Mr Sometimes Irritable as a way of defining what I DO want.
    As long as i am not having sex it feels safe .

    I am feeling more attracted to Doctor guy . We have dated about 8 times now. I am hoping he will move to make it more physical soon. Even if we become physically intimate I am going to hold on to the CD

    I am so happy for you Kaitlyn! That was a reminder to me to be patient and stay leaned back and surprises may happen!

  163.  #163Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 4:12 am

    Lilybelle I love how free you are now! You can date anyone and not fear how to handle the clangers 🙂

    What a Siren!

  164.  #164Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 4:15 am

    Lucy , Gotta love it!

    That Aussie accent is unappealing to other Aussies.
    I just love a clipped British Hugh Grantish accent myself..

  165.  #165Marie on June 3, 2011 at 4:21 am

    I have a HUGE problem and am hoping someone can help me or lead me in a direction on what to do. I have a live in boyfriend. We have been together for 13 months. I also have a daughter who lives with me and him full time. He has a daughter the same age, they are both almost “teens”. My issue is I just found out that he has had MANY other lovers besides me. Many 3 month or 6 week relationships with women who he’s had sex with. I don’t know exact numbres but it’s a BIG number. I never knew this until a few days ago. Also, all of his friends that he keeps dear to him have some link or connection to many of his ex gf’s. I just found out that his cousin had set him up not once but 2 times with women that he’s been with for 6 weeks or more but had sex with both. This was his last relationship before me. One of the women his cousin set him up with is the cousin’s wife’s sister. So the cousin’s sister in law. That means if we ever go to a party at the cousin’s house the sister in law, my bf’s ex that he had sex with will be there. This upsets me and is breaking every boundary I have in this department. I want nothing to do with any ex’s. I don’t want to know, or meet them, or be in the same room. Problem is there are so many it turns out, and many are friends with his friends, family, etc, that I can’t even go to a football game to see his daughter cheerlead because there will be 2, 3 or even 4 ex’s there. I had no idea the man I’m living with and planned to marry got around even half this much. He never came across as being a serial dater or this experienced sexually and now I’m just devastated. I’ve been sobbing and crying for 2 days, had I known this fact about him and there are other lies he’s told me, he wouldn’t be living in my house. His daughter is with an ex gf he was with for only 1 year, never married. She has two other children from 2 different men, never married. So 3 kids in her house and a live in bf with one of the 3 children. It’s a little hard to handle. The daughter also tells MY daughter, my mom has 3 kids by 3 different men and never married any of them and SO WHAT. I have a problem with this also, but I understand this is his life not mine. I was married to my daughter’s father for 10 years. His parents also talk about the mother of his daughter to ME when I’m there, non-stop about what she’s doing on the weekends, how wonderful she is, on and on and on. My bf’s ex wife went to his parents years ago to ask them to stop talking about her and it ended in zero communication between him and his parents for 3 years. So me or my bf can’t ask them to please spare us his ex gf’s life details or they will stop all communication. It’s very hard to handle. i don’t know what to do and now what’s happened is I’ve been crying and sobbing for the past 2 days straight not knowing if I need to end this or seek help for myself in how to deal with this nightmare. A few of these problems at a time I can deal with but all together it’s way out of my comfort zone and makes me just feel like I have a stranger living in my house that I can’t respect and don’t even really like anymore. Please help.

  166.  #166Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 4:32 am


    “Problem is there are so many it turns out, and many are friends with his friends, family, etc, that I can’t even go to a football game to see his daughter cheerlead because there will be 2, 3 or even 4 ex’s there. ”

    Marie what you have is what you have NOW. You can either live in fear that you will become an ex – or you can live in joy that you have love and CAN go wherever you wish and be part of a team…as long as you are in a real and not imaginary relationship.

  167.  #167Marie on June 3, 2011 at 4:38 am

    I forgot to add that I’m 35 years old and he’s 40, he was married once for 2.5 years and his ex wife cheated. He’s been divorced for about 6 years, I’ve been divorced for 5 years. He has no children with his ex wife. His sister who is my age still is friends with the ex wife also, so I get to hear all the wonderful details about her as well when I’m with his family. His mother tells me how wonderful she was with his daughter and how much the daughter misses her, why on earth do I need to know that? Do they want me to leave him or what? Don’t know if this helps or matters……

  168.  #168Marie on June 3, 2011 at 4:45 am

    Hi Rosa, thank you for commenting. I’m so sad and just devastated over all of this I appreciate any help so much….I’m not living in fear of becoming an ex, I have a mental problem with SEEING women who came before me..I don’t want to know, i’d rather just keep it in the past and pretend there is only my bf and I, no ex’s…I have no interest in talking to any of them, there’s no reason!! Why would someone who loves me (says he does) and wants to marry me keep expecting me to be in this situation..I’ve talked to him right from the start that I’d rather keep my past and his there, in the PAST, but his past and present are entwined!!! It’s just hard for me to deal with. I would rather not put myself in a situation that will make me feel uncomfortable and what that means with the man I’m with is any party, any even for his daughter, and family get together has the potential for having ex’s literally shoved down my throat. It’s very hard for me. My family doesn’t act like this to my bf at all and I have ZERO attachments or links to ANY ex’s. Even the father of my daughter there is limited communication and my bf will never have to meet him or speak with him, it’s just not how our situation is handled. I’m just asking for the same in return. Who in the hell wants to speak with or talk to ex gf’s? I don’t! And I would never put my bf in this type of situation. I have no problem if i ever have to speak with or be involved with his daughter’s mother, I understand she is a permanent part of his life due to his child. And I care and love his daughter just as much as I do my own and consider her my own it’s the rest of these women. And finding out they are EVERYWHERE is too much for me to bear.

  169.  #169Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 4:53 am

    Are you CDing Marie?
    Are you going out just for you , to a movie or a gallery , or a lecture , just for you?

    If you were looking after YOU , and focusing on you being HAPPY ..shining a laser light on your own feelings and enjoyment of life, what he DOES or did not do is NOT being the agenda here…this sort of self care will see you through.

    Go on a lunch date , seek out friends ..feel good about YOU.

  170.  #170Marie on June 3, 2011 at 5:06 am

    Thank you Rosa. No I’m not. I’ve been unemployed after my company went bankrupt in December and I’ve down ward spiraled ever since. I’m having major problems finding work, and pretty much I stay around the house due to serious lack of money…Plus I think I’m depressed due to I find it near impossible to motivate myself to go out and do things I used to love..I have a horse and horseback riding used to be my passion. I don’t think I’ve gone to the barn or ridden in 3 months…When I literally FORCE myself to go out and do something, I do feel better, but it’s fleeting…just a few hours of joy. I also have no health insurance and applied for the state health insurance but due to child support coming in it’s $300 over their limit, so I can’t even seek counseling which I’m pretty sure I desperately need…I’m in a tough spot!!

  171.  #171Mel on June 3, 2011 at 5:17 am

    I have a question.

    I feel myself having one foot out the door right now. I have been looking for jobs in my home city and checking into some logistical things like how to get some of my belongings sent across the country.

    I think I truly would like to stay married to my husband, but my brain is telling me: he’s not really committing to you right now. He’s not sure he wants to be married. Beyond agreeing to go to counseling ONCE, he has made no further commitment to the marriage.

    I feel like I need a back-up plan. I am a teacher, so if I wait for him to make up his mind, I could be out of work for next year (most of the hiring is done before the end of June). I just don’t want to put all of my eggs in the “we’ll work it out” basket.

    But I wonder if this will make it difficult to actually work on the marriage. I mean how can I commit myself to “us” if I am also understandably “me” focused right now? Is there a conflict here?

    Am I wrong to want a back-up plan?

  172.  #172Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 5:26 am

    Mel , I always say “look where your feet are”

    If your feet are heading with determination in one direction, this is where your unconscious is leading you . If your mind is consciously somewhere else ..always check your feet.

    Your “feet” are checking out a cross country move..Love them for caring for you and trust that they know why they are doing this…even if its unconscious.

  173.  #173Marie on June 3, 2011 at 5:27 am

    Mel, i remember Rori saying something along the lines of if he’s not 100% sure about you and the relationship you tell him, I will give you all the time you need to work out what you want with this relationship but I can’t stop my life and spend it waiting for you to decide. Then you get super super busy going out and doing things for yourself. I’m not exact on what Rori said, but she did it with her own husband when he was stalling to commit to marriage with her.

  174.  #174Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 5:45 am

    171: I agree with Rosa, Mel~ 100% Your “gut” is talking to you, loudly.

    You know what else this shows me?

    I don’t believe there is a conflict here, I believe you are doing the most important thing you can do here, taking care of you. Your back-up plan is showing me that you are determined to take care of you and this is proof of the “work” that you have been doing since you came to the Island.

    I applaud you!

  175.  #175Mel on June 3, 2011 at 5:46 am

    Should I apply to some jobs in my home town so as not to put myself out of the running?

    That way in case he bails, I’m not kicking myself later?

    If he wants to work things out, I don’t have to accept any positions (if they are offered).

    I just feel like he shouldn’t have the power to further mess up my life. I know this is different than dating a guy that won’t commit, but it feels the same. I mean, if he can’t give me any commitment besides “we’ll see” and “I don’t know.” Than I don’t see why I should be putting my life on hold for him.

    What do you think?

  176.  #176Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 5:58 am

    So Mel these “choices” all work around a default position of “if he Bails”.

    What would you like to do to look after you REGARDLESS of his choices?

  177.  #177Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 6:02 am


    Awww, thank you, Rosa.

  178.  #178Mel on June 3, 2011 at 6:07 am

    The thing is, I don’t mind staying where I am if we’re going to work things out. I like this city and I have a job etc.

    But I definitely don’t want to stay if we separate. I would rather be close to friends and family that love me, than be here alone.

    But the fact remains that in order for ME to choose to stay and remain in the marriage, there has to be a willingness to change and WANT to be married on his part.

    There are also some deal breakers, that if he can’t agree to, I’m not willing to compromise on.

    So, what I want, regardless of him is to be happy I guess. I want to have a job that I like and spend quality time with the people I choose to have in my life.

    Not an easy question.

  179.  #179Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 6:08 am

    RE 175 Mel I sense that is you are taking care of yourself and being aware of what is taking place in your life. As far as I am concerned I use interviews for developing my skills and for checking to see what I am perceived as competent to perform as well as how marketable I am. I am wondering Mel if you could see some value in that and in putting yourself out there as well as out in other surrounding towns where you live now. This will give you a sense of yourself as well as possibly lift your self esteem, is my humble opinion. This is about you.

  180.  #180Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 6:12 am

    RE 165 Marie he sounds like a serial monogamist who might need to be in a relationship to feel good about himself.

  181.  #181Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 6:23 am

    Also Marie a man who gets around like that might be aware of who he is and what he really wants in his life. He must have a lot of experience that taught him what he doesn’t want. How does he treat you and how do you feel when you are around him?

    It also feels like the relationship is being put in the balalnce based on the past. I believe if I completely eliminate people from my past I am creating a very small and lonely world for myself. Can my boundaries include a door that allow people in and out instead of a wall that totally shuts them out? I believe so and I work towards that. Allowing him to choose his friends could endear you to him. Dictating who he can interact with could create codependency. I recently saw a man walk away from a woman who seemed to attack all other female friends in his life. Within a year he was married to someone else.

    Regarding the family who keeps talking about them, I would ask that they respect my feelings. If they don’t I would just excuse myself. Regarding the fear of closing down the communication because of history I would encourage you to trust that you can build relationships rather than destroy them. That was the relationship they had with them back then. You are different, the result does not have to be the same thing.

  182.  #182LobbyStar on June 3, 2011 at 6:41 am

    I need some advice, Sirens.

    The last guy I dated works at the same place as I do. Our schedules only seem to cross maybe 1-2 times per week, and my job requires me to walk past his work area several times in the course of my day.

    The first time I saw him after the split was a week after he ended it; we made eye contact and I nodded as I walked past. He smiled really big, like he was really happy that I was still acknowledging him, and that was painful for me, because it was like he thought we were ok, and we were NOT ok.

    The following week, he approached me and asked how I was doing. We had a small conversation about the things we’d been doing since the breakup.

    For the next two weeks, I ignored him. When I walked past his area, I would not make eye contact. I would maybe stop to talk with others in his area, but I refused to look at him, because it was too painful. Then one day when I was feeling really good and confident about myself, I looked at him, and I could tell he was working very hard not to give me eye contact, very intent on what he was doing to avoid my gaze. I have to admit, it felt good to think that I’d gotten to him.

    But then last week, I was feeling guilty for my refusal to acknowledge him, so I went to his area and said hello. Maybe it’s my imagination, but he lit up, and we had a friendly conversation. Again, he acted like nothing was wrong, and as if I hadn’t even been ignoring him for two weeks.

    Now I am at a loss as to where to go from here. I will not deny that I’d like to have him back, but I am not opposed to dating others. I’d gladly welcome him into my “rotation,” lol, because I do intend to CDate. It’s only been in the past week or so that I’ve been able to admit that I want him back, but that I’m ready to date other men.

    After watching TMR earlier this week, I feel I made a mistake in breaking my ignoring streak. So what now? Do I resume ignoring him? Do I try to stay friendly? Do I ignore him most of the time, but acknowledge him on occasion, just to keep him on his toes?

    What do you think?

  183.  #183Lucky on June 3, 2011 at 6:43 am

    First time here…got the ebook, was so transforming I just finished the Siren Program- wow.

    Rori’s blogs are literally creating a new path for me to love myself and be able to consider that I could have a relationship. 2 divorces, a life of self hatred and hiding, this past year I literally wanted to die(I never would, just really felt that way- like, take me now!) No man was allowed anywhere near me for the last 2 years- wouldn’t let it. And I am in the business of healing OTHERS…never felt it for myself.

    And then, I entertained just a “hint” of the idea of finding a casual, fun guy….and, boom, younger man comes into my life thru Craig’s List(of all places…I was selling something, not myself LOL)….

    there is a new warmth and different feeling I am getting from this one…so, I start freaking out, cause of my rules above that I have lived by for years and I start doing my “old” routine, getting totally freaked out, anxious, protecting myself, just being totally wierd cause I am so scared from the past abuse….then Rori’s work enters my life.

    So for the last month I have been casually dating this man, Rori taught me to use it as a “workshop”(what a difference that makes!)… and it has been AMAZING- not so much because of what he is doing, but because of who I am being, with MYSELF….feeling so much love for me, regardless of what he is doing, not worrying about the future, but paying attention to the present and, most importantly, how I feel. Honoring myself first, and always.

    Dilemma- So now, he is a full time student, NO money, and he has backed away from me. He says he is stressed financially. (this is a tough one for me cause I am older than him, already run several businesses, both successes and failures, but am comfortable in the male role of “fixing”, etc…and I see that it is a mistake to bring these qualities into my relationships…)

    Rori’s blog here reminds me not to take his actions personally- and I am finally getting this!
    It also allows me to keep my heart in the relationship- for myself, and him.

    But…Question I have is how to approach this one without leaning forward? I want to keep him in my life and let him know that the feelings I have when he is around is more important to me than the money he has to spend on me, or lack of. But, I also know how important being financial supportive to your woman is to a man, makes him feel like a man, and I want him to feel like a man, and me a woman too!

    Any ideas how to keep communication? He lives a few hrs away, so we don’t see each other much- just phone/computer.

    Thanks to all of you!

  184.  #184Izzy on June 3, 2011 at 6:46 am

    I found this message that my ex-boyfriend wrote 3 years ago:

    “Tell me what you think and I’ll be your friend
    Give me a kiss and I’ll fall in love
    Give me your heart and I’ll belong to you
    I love you my little girl”

    So if you tell a guy what you think, he will be a friend. If you express your heart, your feelings, he will belong to you. I thought it was sweet when I read it the first time, now I think it is wise.

    Well, we broke up 2 and half months ago and I met a new guy. He asked me to be his girlfriend and I told him that I feel really special that he is asking, and asked him what that meant to him. He said it meant friendship, affection, partnership, etc, etc. And I said what about exclusivity? He said that cheating would be the end. And then he said he got cheated a while ago and he spent years so wanting a close relationship because of it. Every time things started to get serious, he would back off. Then I told him that at this moment in my life I’m looking for a life partner. And he said I want the same thing. I’m thinking of you seriously. Then I said yes to being his girlfriend exclusively. Detail: we haven’t had sex yet. I thought it was too quick, because he asked me to be his girlfriend two weeks after we met. And he seems really, really interested. I feel taken care of. He paid for all dates, he almost cried when he was talking about the close relationship he has with this brother, he has a good job and he bought his own apartment last week. He is 30 and I’m 31. I feel surprised that a guy is so into me so fast, especially considering that he has been avoiding comitted relationships. How do you girls think it went?

  185.  #185DE on June 3, 2011 at 6:48 am


    If I were in your situation, I would first leave town for a few days (weekend the least), do something fun, relaxing for myself…clear my head without having to see him all the time…

    Next step, get my schedule busy on evenings…really, make new friends…go out at least 3 times a week…for a couple of hours the least…

    I would absolutely stop talking to him about us…

    The only time I would be open to it…if he has a plan…so, my question to him would be…”Oh, you would like to talk? Okay…Do u have plan to discuss? Oh, you still trying to figure it out? Hmm…I don’t feel good entertaining wishy -washy discussions any longer…let me know when u have something concrete…”

    Focusing on me is a must…attend my feelings, my needs…if he offers to help, i would feel open…but I would no longer ask him for anything…

    U voice feels stronger than before…and that feels good to notice…

    Warm hugs,

  186.  #186Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 6:59 am

    145: Hey, Elizabeth and Rosa:

    I like that “I feel____ when you___” structure and am actually aware of it from Management training and have used it effectively in business from time to time.

    My dilemma: I have hesitated to use it with men b/c of the “you.” I recall Rori encouraging us to avoid the word “you” when addressing a man about a feeling we have about him or something he’s done. It’s so challenging!! I feel conflicted here, because you know and he knows that you are addressing the situation, and even if you are owning your own feelings…well…it’s just so hard not to say “YOU” or refer to what he did. I suppose Rori’s “I feel_______; I want_______; I don’t want________” construction could still apply here. For example:

    Siren: “I felt uncomfortable and bad for our waitress at dinner the other night. I want to be respectful of people and happy when I’m out with a man. I don’t want to feel uncomfortable for the wait staff or feel negativity on what I want to be a relaxing evening of warmth and connection. What do you think?”

    Dude: “What the hell are you going on about?”

    Hahahaha! Sorry–tension breaker. I have gotten this response from less gentle men when I talk like this however.

    Elizabeth? Rosa? What do you think about that construction?

  187.  #187DE on June 3, 2011 at 7:00 am


    My “gut” feeling is telling me he wants U to make the decision about separation/divorce…this way he is released from “responsibility”…many men do it 🙁

    That’s why is sooo important to not make it too easy for him…I would leave my life in such a way…that he will either want to work on getting back 110% or let me go pronto…within two months (i give myself a dateline to move out me or him)…dragging things are awful for your spirit…and leaving under the same roof is even worse…

  188.  #188Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 7:19 am

    Rosa and Elizabeth and all:

    The above work-through on the non-accusatory FM came to me last night after BoyScout finally called to end things with me. He stumbled and hemmed and hawed and really struggled to say it, and I just stayed silent and tried to respect his thought process. He finally choked out that it’s the distance, and it’s not fair to me b/c he knows I want a committed relationship and we can’t build that only seeing each other twice a month, and yes, he’s got money troubles and can’t treat me how I deserve, and he’s just not in a good place and he’s been depressed, and the practicalities of our lives make it “too hard”…and so on.

    It always feels awful to be broken up with, even when you also know it’s not working and the guy really just beat you to the punch. So when he was finished, I said:

    “Thank you for your honesty. I feel sad that I won’t see you again. I feel a bit confused because I thought we had a wonderful time this weekend, but I also feel a bit relieved. I want to be with a man who thinks nothing of a two-hour drive to come be with me, who is in an emotional and practical position to “come claim me” as his. I don’t want to be with a man who has to work up his energy to be with me or who sees being with me as another struggle in his life. I have feelings for you and I feel good about our intellectual connection, and I feel thankful for the nice things you did for me. But I feel relieved now not wondering too if we were right for each other.”

    We chatted a bit more–he said he admires my “class” and maturity and that he hopes there’s a good step-up man out there for me, because I deserve it. And once again I had to hear about how “strong” I am. (It’s a sore spot for me, I admit. It’s the main word I hear applied to me. And yesterday, Rori referred to my voice as, “powerful.” I feel anxiety over being seen this way–isn’t a Siren supposed to be inwardly strong but outwardly soft? Which I must not be doing right if everyone assigns these masculine labels to me…anyway, that’s a whole other issue perhaps for another time.)

    So I learned a lot. I got a really good opportunity to use feeling messages in a stressful situation. I practiced STOPPING and not talking until I sank into and identified what I was feeling (so hard for me up to now). Then I told him what I was feeling and what I want and don’t want.

    Thanks. Felt good to relay this and how I am getting better at communicating this way.

  189.  #189Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 7:19 am


    I’m a little confused. If you and your live-in bf have been together for 13 mos. haven’t you already met/talked to/ran into many of his previous lovers before you ever knew they were such? Cousin’s parties, cheerleading games, social events?

  190.  #190T-Girl on June 3, 2011 at 7:25 am

    Izzy, it sounds like you have set off his alarm. He wants to get you off the dating market and keep you for himself. Your story sounds a bit like mine at this moment. I think it is hard for us to realize that a guy can be that into us in such a short time period. I am learning to just roll with it, be in the moment, and be surprised. I’m liking it so far!

    I love the note your ex wrote!

  191.  #191Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:28 am

    Mel I like what DE says. It also triggered a memory that when in a relationship men depend on the woman for the emotional lead. I would only add review the commitment you made aboyut yourself or to yourself when you had the discussion with him. See how you told him you were going to live your life and stick by that commitment.

  192.  #192T-Girl on June 3, 2011 at 7:28 am

    Wow Boomer. Your communication with feeling messages was perfect. It is still so hard for me to do that. Especially in everyday talk. I have to think so hard for it to come out it doesn’t sound natural.

  193.  #193Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:30 am

    Hi Lucky, I would leave it until he brings it up again.

  194.  #194Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:30 am

    Boomer I loved how you handled that.

  195.  #195T-Girl on June 3, 2011 at 7:32 am

    Mel, I agree with DE. My ex did the same, left the decision up to me in his own passive way. The thing is I realize now that he did that several times over the past 2 years until I finally made the decision – one that should have been made sooner. I admire that you are thinking about yourself in a way that a move may be in order. It shows that your mind is in the right place – on YOU!

  196.  #196Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:32 am

    RE 182 Hi LobbyStar love your name. I sense that ignoring him could come across as playing games. Are you CDating?

  197.  #197Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 7:32 am


    “If he wants to work things out, I don’t have to accept any positions (if they are offered).”

    This is so true. Get your ducks in a row, use interviews as practice as FW suggests (which will also send you back home for periods to get support from friendly loved ones), and just start creating possible paths for yourself.

    Wow, I am SOOOO impressed by you right now, Mel. I love that you are taking care of yourself and acknowledging that MEL MATTERS here! Hugs!!!

  198.  #198Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 7:35 am

    Rosa, you wow me. Your voice here is so competent and kind and strong. I just wanted you to know that I admire your clarity and kindness. Your words always inspire me to do better and to be more thoughtful.

  199.  #199T-Girl on June 3, 2011 at 7:35 am

    Lobby Star – I agree with FW about the ignoring feels like playing games. Is this how you want your work environment to be? That would be awfully hard to continue and makes for a difficult work situation. How can you get back to being more natural and authentic when you happen to see him at work?

  200.  #200Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 7:37 am

    186. Boomer

    Boomer, I think the construction of your feeling message is great. 🙂

    my caveat: inherent in this feeling message is your unacceptance of what you perceive as his unacceptable behavior; you are clearly not talking in generalities. You are inferring “him”, without a doubt.

    In my experience, avoiding saying “you”, or “what you said” in no way guarantees that he is not going to get defensive, and say something like, “Are you saying that you think I treated our server badly?” or “what are you trying to imply (or allude to or insinuate)?”

    Sometimes I would just rather get to the heart of the matter instead of dancing around the issue, because they know what you mean anyway and a lot of them would rather that you say it up front.

    For me, what is more at the core of the issue, *no matter how you word things*, no matter how much you take responsibility for your feelings, no matter how you are not judging him as a person,

    is this:

    If a certain kind of man senses that you are not happy with the way he does things — If he perceives (accurately or inaccurately) that you are more unhappy than happy — the chances are he’s not going to stick around, because he will feel you are trying to change him. Other men may react differently.

    So, again. It all just depends. On the people involved, their “stuff”, the dynamics of their relationship and each situation. Obviously any kind of language is going to work differently on a mentally ill person than it will on a more emotionally stable one. For me, I have chosen not to have to have a predominant role of playing crisis counselor in my relationships with men going forward!

    What do you think?


    Boomer said:
    My dilemma: I have hesitated to use it with men b/c of the “you.” I recall Rori encouraging us to avoid the word “you” when addressing a man about a feeling we have about him or something he’s done. It’s so challenging!! I feel conflicted here, because you know and he knows that you are addressing the situation, and even if you are owning your own feelings…well…it’s just so hard not to say “YOU” or refer to what he did. I suppose Rori’s “I feel_______; I want_______; I don’t want________” construction could still apply here. For example:

    Siren: “I felt uncomfortable and bad for our waitress at dinner the other night. I want to be respectful of people and happy when I’m out with a man. I don’t want to feel uncomfortable for the wait staff or feel negativity on what I want to be a relaxing evening of warmth and connection. What do you think?”

  201.  #201Mel on June 3, 2011 at 7:40 am


    I just told him that I loved him, wanted to work on the marriage, but that I wasn’t happy with the way things were. That there are certain things I can compromise on, but others that I can’t accept in a marriage.

    He said he just didn’t know if he wanted to be married and that he wasn’t sure he was willing to make an effort. He said he would go to a counselor on his own and try one session with me to see if he could figure it out.

    That’s where we left things. Just kind of up in the air.

  202.  #202Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 7:43 am


    wow, i am very impressed,
    that was a very heart-warming, and yes, classy and mature way to respond, Boomer!
    you are doing so great 🙂


  203.  #203KS on June 3, 2011 at 7:52 am

    Thoughts and prayers are with you. I know how it feels to want so badly to make things work. In my experience, my husband only got serious when he realized I loved him but I had other options and was not afraid to walk….which I actually did (for a whole year). He treats me much different now and there is a greater level of respect. You seem to be doing the right things and I know you will find your way. 🙂

  204.  #204Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:58 am

    Mel Then I would love him whenever he opened up to me and stick by my boundaries. I wonder what he means by “make an effort?” Did he clarify that?

  205.  #205KS on June 3, 2011 at 8:00 am

    Soooooo true about people with mental illness reacting differently to feeling messages.

    Toxic man was diagnosed with Bi-polar, PTSD, and a variety of others.
    His response to my first feeling msg was “Huh”? Then HE started using feeling messages. Lol (monkey see, monkey do??????)

    My husband is a a$$ sometimes but no diagnosed mental illness.
    His response to my first feeling msg was “Wow. There is something really different about your communication.”


  206.  #206Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:00 am

    FW and T-Girl. Thanks. Having that FM conversation with BoyScout last night was a major milestone for me emotionally.

    For the first time with a man, I am not bemoaning what “I did wrong” to make yet another man leave me.

    I realize this is about him and his depression, finances, ability to be a partner, strength, and desires. It occurs to me that I had set the bar for what I want in a relationship and he found himself under that bar, and so removed himself from the running.

    It really is a case of him saying: “It’s not you; it’s me!”

    Huh. How ’bout that?

  207.  #207Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 8:02 am

    RE 203 Mel I know that little word respect could go a long way. He will appreciate if you respect him now. One of my beliefs is that people know what they need to make them happy so I am comfortable allowing them to choose that for themselves and I let them know I respect that.

  208.  #208Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 8:04 am

    Boomer I think it is great. Also it would be great if you are open to communicate with him if he contacts you some time in the future. He must know you respect him so it does not diminish his masculinity. I am sure he will be okay.

  209.  #209Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 8:07 am


    Dear Mel,

    I know this must be a difficult time for you,
    and I feel for you and send you love and support.

    you said:
    “he said that he wasn’t sure he was willing to make an effort. He said he would go to a counselor on his own and try one session with me to see if he could figure it out.”

    fwiw, the moment I knew without a doubt that my marriage was irretrievably over, was when both of us knew for sure that we were no longer willing to make the effort.

    up in the air is not an easy or comfortable place to be…….hugs to you, Mel


  210.  #210Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:07 am


    Sorry you had to struggle with the sadness of mental illness in a partner. I thought I was the damaged/”crazy” one for so long, didn’t you? In addition to his clinical issues, he also did hurtful things not related to his diagnosis and was just wrong for me all around. I had some sympathy, but the deep damage was done. The diagnosis helped clarify things in some ways, but there I was, still in a marriage with a non-functioning partner and a brood of kids to care for. I can’t imagine FMs EVER working on him then! Although I use them carefully now with him (he’s medicated and coping reasonably well) on issues regarding the kids, and it’s not going too badly. He very much values “logic,” and as ours is essentially a business relationship now, being “boy” with him usually works best.

    I’m glad your “a$$hat” is responding to you. Keep doing it! It’s exciting, isn’t it?

  211.  #211Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:13 am

    FW, 208:

    Ha, yes! BoyScout said last night that he had found a CD that day that he knew I’d love and that we could talk about together…and that it deepened his sadness to feel he could not just share those things with me anymore. I didn’t invite him to “give me a call any old time!” because I don’t really want that right now, and I felt relieved that there was no “let’s be friends” stuff mentioned. But he did say that he’s fairly certain over the next eight weeks he’ll date local women and sadly realize that “they are not you.”


    I admit to rolling my eyes a bit at him using FMs back at me (yeah, I think that bugs a lot of us here), but he is a gentle soul with some stress right now, so I can let that go and still feel warm toward him, or at least toward the idea of him.

  212.  #212Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 8:18 am

    Boomer about that strong voice I sense that the man you belong to will not find that intimidating. As a matter of fact I imagine it is something he will be attracted to if that is the genuine you. I would encourage you though to find a place where you can use that with your boy energy outside of the relationship so that it feels useful. That migth be your warrior goddess that shows her head when she emerges and I hear you but I would pour love on her too. There is a post from way back that Rori wrote about it. Can’t remember right now where it is but will try to look for it for you

  213.  #213Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 8:18 am

    I do like it when they use feeling messages back because it shows me that they feel emotionally safe with me and I have helped them get in touch with their emotions. But I wouldn’t want that at the expense of them wanting to care about my feelings more than theirs. I try to look at what’s going on in a circumspect kind of way. Are their words, their behavior, over time, indicating they want to be predominantly the feminine energy or the other way around? How is any leaning forward, overfunctioning energy that I’m doing affecting all of this?


  214.  #214tinque on June 3, 2011 at 8:19 am

    kaitlyn – I love that he asked you for more, and no it’s not leaning forward to respond. You could tell him about your project, but I like the other better for openers. Here’s what you wrote tweaked some.

    “I felt so good when you called me the other day. I loved hearing that you missed me. I feel shy right now…like we’re getting to know each other all over again. I feel warm and melty.”


  215.  #215Mel on June 3, 2011 at 8:19 am


    I think he just meant whether or not he was willing to change or compromise on some of his behaviors. And also put in the effort it would take to heal the marriage (making time for us, being transparent and honest, building back trust).

    I was kind of left with the impression that I should just accept the new him and not expect to have any of my needs met.


    I agree. I think he’s looking for me to take the lead on this. He doesn’t want to be the bad guy. He also doesn’t want to have to deal with all of the financial and logistical concerns right now. He doesn’t know if he wants to be married, so he’s just going to act like he’s single and not commit to anything. But at the same time, he doesn’t want me to leave because then he can’t afford our apartment, would have to sell our car, etc… etc. It feels like for now, staying married is “convenient” for him. In a few months, when he gets his big raise… well then “he’s considering getting his own place.”

    I have a place I could live, and a family who’s willing to help me out until I get back on my feet. I don’t really feel like “waiting around” just so that he doesn’t have to worry about the bills.

    If he wants to offer some sort of commitment, that’s great! I’m curious to see what his goals are for “us” in counseling. If his position is just “I don’t know…” and “I’m not willing to do anything right now” well… why am I here?

    That’s why a back up plan is important for me. I don’t want to feel used. I want to be happy (with or without him). I don’t really feel like living with a man who has no intention of loving me like I deserve simply because it’s convenient.

  216.  #216Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:22 am

    Elizabeth–a thoughtful distinction. I’m gonna chew on that. I’m so new to FMs and my ability to even form them in my brain let alone say them, that when one trips off a man’s tongue effortlessly, it feels weird to me. I feel jealous that he can say it so easily when I struggle with them.

    I want to be the girl! I want to be the girl!

  217.  #217Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 8:23 am

    Well, I am firmly back in the saddle and officially CDing again, getting lots of interest on pof from a better quality of men than in the past…am avoiding overfunctioning and using feeling messages with them….it’s working very nicely, i have such a wonderful warm feeling around it all….I have two dates lined up for this weekend, accepting from whoever asks first, not waiting for one I think I might like better. 🙂


  218.  #218Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:24 am

    Oh, Mel! Go YOU!!!!

    That last message–wow. I just love love love where you are now and how you’ve committed to taking care of yourself.

    Your grace under fire is amazing!

  219.  #219tinque on June 3, 2011 at 8:26 am

    I just got to the he called part. YAY!!! Please disregard above.


  220.  #220Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 8:27 am

    Boomer, I want to encourage you to stay in that feeling of excitement you have when you do “be the girl” and let it grow and grow because you will want to stay in it most of the time, and it will become second nature.

    I am having such fun with it. My male relatives who were visiting, and even my dad, are responding so well to this “new me”. Stepping up as men. Such great practice for me. I’m loving it!!!

    I’m so excited for us all!!!


  221.  #221KS on June 3, 2011 at 8:28 am

    Ok Sirens….This may be a long post but I would appreciate ANY and ALL thoughts on this as I am really trying to process this experience and could use some help.

    I have not been obsessing over Toxic man for about three weeks. It feels really good cuz it was so bad I was thinking of him 24 hours a day….NOT being dramatic….it was literally consuming me! Now I realized that I really just wanted a DO-OVER because I acted like such a psycho when we ended things…..and I wanted to be able to walk away like a Siren. (Boomer-This reminds me of that crazy making behavior a mentally-ill person has the abilitly to induce in you if you don’t have good boundries and walk away in time!)

    Soooooooo….since I felt I was FINALLY over toxic man I decided to be intimate with my husband again since he has come back. It felt so wierd. RIGHT after we started being intimate I felt the most intense physical desire for Toxic man that I started to cry and could not stop. I felt invaded and I hated him. I felt like he had left some friggin dna imprint of his on my brain and my body that made me only his somehow. My husband was cool but I admit I lied about why I was crying.

    I was scared this would throw me back into obsessing about him but it hasnt. I have thought about him more but mostly just tryin to figure this out.

    I had this weird dream about him last night and it was kinda sex focused. Not me and him though. I was just there in the house with him and he was doing all this deviant sexual stuff while I was takin care of the kids and trying to do the “family thing”.

    Soooooo WTF? I just wanna process this so I don’t get stuck here but I feel confused about all this!

    What do ya’ll think?

  222.  #222Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:29 am

    202: Elizabeth: I had not seen your kudos up there. Thank you! That means a lot to me!

  223.  #223LobbyStar on June 3, 2011 at 8:32 am

    196: FW

    I am not yet CDating; I only learned of it this week, but I am ready, as soon as I gets me some mens to date! lol

    Re 199: T-Girl

    He and I work at the same place, but we do not work with each other. There is no need for us to interact, beyond a social aspect. So this does not affect the work environment for me. There is no tension or anything. I’m just doing my job without taking the time to socialize with him, like I did when we were seeing each other. I guess you could say I’ve reverted to my natural and authentic self from before we dated.

    And I don’t know how to make myself feel good when I’m walking by his work area. I felt bad ignoring him, and I felt bad after I talked to him. I can avoid his area to some extent, but sometimes there is no avoiding it. So I don’t know what to do, which is why I’m here!

  224.  #224Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 8:37 am

    222 Boomer

    Did you see #200 I responded to you also.


  225.  #225Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:39 am

    Boomer, I too usually have a strong voice when I write and speak, and people remark about it. What helped me was to use the blog to practice feminine voice and vulnerability… My voice here is much softer, and all this practice has drawn out a vulnerability that consistently brings out the knight in shining armor in men. Men rush to protect me – it is lovely and amazing! They say things about me that mean “strong inside, soft outside.” They read my strong public voice and experience my soft private voice.

  226.  #226Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:39 am

    200 Elizabeth:

    I didn’t see this one either!

    Hmmm. Again, I’m conflicted and struggling. I sometimes feel damned if I do and damned if I don’t with the FM “rules.”

    Old Boomer would have said, “Dude, that was so uncomfortable. The way you snapped your fingers at the waitress and groused all night because your margarita was late? Not cool.”

    I know…NOT effective. So I am at least proud that I do better now, even if some tweaking is called for.

    As I said and you said, he knows and you know what you’re really trying to say, and unless you can completely eliminate the judgment, it’s really hard to be clear about what you are taking issue with.

    Which feels like it’s full circle to Rosa’s question: How do you deliver effective FMs that do not blame even when he is directly causing you to wince/feel uncomfortable/feel unsafe?


  227.  #227Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:44 am

    They see me take care of myself – and they want to take care of me bc I show that vulnerability. You mentioned your “bravado” – I noticed that too about you, and I wonder if that is the block here. Bravado is the exact opposite of vulnerability. Maybe it is also what creates the dissonance btwn responses to your profile and irl. Just some thoughts. <3

  228.  #228Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 8:48 am

    RE 221 Sounds like your unconscious mind and maybe you could use the cutting cord ritual of LG to take your energy back.

  229.  #229Tulip on June 3, 2011 at 8:49 am

    I wonder has anyone got any advice for this: My BF finished with me and has left some items at my home. I was really upset when he ended it and I have also been quite ill. Just starting to feel better last few days. I received a text from him that was curt, and telly offy saying i have had plenty of time to sort out him getting his stuff and would I organise this now or give him some pointer as to when he could collect.
    I’m happy to for him to have his stuff, I have just not felt strong enough to contact him. I feel bad he is taking a little old tv though as my daughter enjoys watching that and she will feel its loss (he has a very good income and I feel that he is taking that as a statement). When he finished it he said when should get the stuff and I said I’d let him know when was good. I never did. The tone of the text made me feel small and stupid Yuck!
    I feel gutted – he also never said goodbye to my daughter who he has known for 2 1/2 years and who was quite fond of him. Any suggestions for how to reply?

  230.  #230Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:56 am

    226. They key to keeping blame and judgment out of FM’s is to learn to authentically Not blame and judge, period. If we try to construct FM’s that *hide* our blame/judgment, we will fail. If we work on actually *eliminating* blame/judgment, our FM’s will be genuine and non-threatening bc they are truly about Us, not him.

  231.  #231Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 8:58 am

    #229 Tulip,

    I sense a reluctance on your part to give him his stuff because as long as you have it, he has reason to contact you. Perhaps somewhere deep down you are hoping he will change his mind about ending the relationship?

    I would hate feeling small and stupid. And it’s very sad that he never said goodbye to your daughter. Giving him back his things means you won’t have to look at them as constant “reminders”. Can you look at it as a way of freeing you to move on?

  232.  #232Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:59 am

    What I hear in these questions about FM’s is “How can I effectively pretend I’m not blaming him when I really am? How can I fool him into thinking I’m not judging him?”

  233.  #233Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 8:59 am

    Lucy, thanks for your thoughts on the strength thing.

    If I did not so love my pretty hair, and having my nails done, and making babies, and rockin’ some kickin’ curves…my brain would have asked for a sexual-reassignment procedure long ago.

    From early childhood, I have been logical, practical, cognitive, and a do-er. I was praised occasionally for it too, but sporadically, so I kept upping the ante until I was THE BEST at those things. My progress at unearthing my girl-self since being here is good. But there’s much still to do.

    Friends and people who love me admire my strength and point it out often. I would not be as semi-sane and alive as I am without having clung to that strength through some very dark periods. My mother always said that the women in our family are inherently stronger than the men, and I was praised for being strong like her in that tradition. I have a fair amount of reprogramming to contend with if I want to completely change “who I am.”

    Which begs the question for me: Do I want to change?

    I am still answering THAT question for myself. I must be open to it if I keep coming back here to explore my options. Do I want to be free to be me just as I am (“I love accept myself deeply and profoundly”), or do I turn my energies toward being this more “appropriate woman” for men. Old feminist tapes play in my head as well.

    Oh, I feel terrified right now–I fear I am triggering women all over this blog with my self-labeling and my quotation marks and my visceral voice and my intellectual tendencies. I feel misunderstood here sometimes because of my communication choices and my gritty, nuts-and-bolts views. I feel even more terrified that I will just be ignored, prompting me to do one of two things: up the ante and be obnoxious with my brand of humor or simply withdraw.

    I am trying to embrace my fear. But then…is that too strong?? Ugh! It seems so much easier to be a man in this world rather this weird hybrid-girl-body/boy-brain construction that I seem to be.

    Lucy, sorry–you were not counting on that can of worms, were you? I feel grateful for your insight, truly.

  234.  #234Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:00 am

    RE 223 LobbyStary what are you still judging yourself about? It sounds like it is all in your head to me? I might be wrong but it sounds like you might be telling yourself something.

  235.  #235Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 9:03 am

    Lucy, thanks for sharing your opinion. I would rather focus on BOTH parties getting their needs met in relationship, sharing feeling messages from life, human needs, ala non-violent communication.
    To me, this is the quickest way out of “emotional prison”. Feelings always come from needs that are either being met or not met. Even positive feelings. That is why I like to examine what is motivating my feelings. It makes my feeling messages more authentic and I am taking responsibility for my feelings that way.


  236.  #236Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:04 am

    RE 233 Not to me Boomer, it sounds like you processing. It feels to me like you need some arena for that voice of part of you for it to get acknowledged. You change for you not any man. I am changing to what I have made peace with that I prefer. I am wondering if there is some public speaking arena that you could take on and focus that energy. Maybe at one of the kids school? That way you could talk to yourself and do the swtiching hats tool where you visualize switch them when going on dates. That just came to me.

  237.  #237Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:06 am

    Boomer pour some love on your weird mutant personality. Maybe if you do things could psychologically switch? I don’t even think it is weird.

  238.  #238Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 9:07 am

    #232 Lucy,

  239.  #239Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:10 am

    I should add Boomer that I was a warrior as a child. When I started this inner work last year I mourned her death as I realized I was no longer enarmoured by that personality. After that uninvited mourning I accepted myself as a softer personality and I just love it. I made peace with my warrior persona so now she appears for banter with guys. When I outwit them she comes out as “damn I’m good, I just love me”. Guys always die laughing at that. I use her in converations mostly with groups of guys.

  240.  #240Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:12 am

    Boomer, I totally get it, and I get you. Everything you wrote there about yourself is also true of me, including thoughts of an operation(!) I have always been seen as strong, and just yesterday, a man who protects me and calls me “feminine” used a word even stronger than “strong” to describe me. We not only Can be both – we Are both! It’s not about changing who we are – it’s about Facing who we are deep inside. You Are vulnerable – I see it so clearly through your bravado. Vulnerable is part of who you ar

  241.  #241Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:13 am

    part of who you are.

  242.  #242Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:14 am

    RE 232 Talk about awareness.

  243.  #243Xti on June 3, 2011 at 9:14 am

    Boomer Elizabeth et al on FM construction…

    Thank you for the lovely examples of how to use either NVC or FM to address the behavior. Your examples helped me spend some time with myself getting clear on how I wanted to handle my behavior.

    I had another long talk last night with my long distance CD — I will call him Buff&Gruff. I had decided before the call to focus on: 1. let him fill in the silence, 2. be the tour guide of me, not the relationship, 3. Be okay with any outcome.

    At some point, as has happened lately, he made a joke using sarcasm, which rarely translates to me over the phone. I usually say “Hmm, I don’t get it?” and then he patiently goes into a detailed explanation.

    Last night, I said “I feel confused by sarcasm. I don’t feel it translates well over the phone. What do you think?” and then I sat silent. He discussed this for a few minutes, He determined for himself that it was reasonable because he uses it to relieve stress. I just listened.

    When he was quiet, I said “Sarcasm feels negative to me.” And then silence. He thought about it for a few minutes and then agreed. And then he said “I’ll work on the sarcasm.”

    I felt so proud of myself for how I handled that situation! I felt scared and nervous for what he might do, but I had agreed with myself to accept it ahead of time. So I also felt brave to say how I was feeling.

    This is how I believe I will handle the public rude or tactless behavior going forward. The key for me is getting really clear on how I feel before I’m in the situation, and being okay with his disagreement, knowing I can restate my feelings or walk away.

    Love it!

  244.  #244LobbyStar on June 3, 2011 at 9:15 am

    234. FW

    Hmmm. I know I tend to over think things, so maybe (probably?) that’s the case here.

    When I was ignoring him, I started feeling silly and childish, and I didn’t like that, so I guess to continue on that path is not going to work for me. After I talked with him though, I felt like I had conceded something, and I felt like a failure, so I obviously didn’t like that. Where is my happy medium?

    I guess I want to be aware of the message I am sending, however I decide to handle things. I want it to say that I am ok, but that WE (as in he and I) are not ok. Does that make sense?

  245.  #245Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 9:16 am


    I just want to say that I also relate to what you write. I’m not sure what you want to ‘change’, you seem wonderful the way you are to me. 🙂

  246.  #246Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Boomer – in your paragraph about fear – the fear is an expression of your authentic feminine self (brava!) and notice at the end there you admit an instinct to cover up all your true feelings with humor and such – and can you see that the cover-up part is your defense mechanism (“masculine”), Not the real you?

  247.  #247Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Boomer there is also a post from Rori about bravado. Loneplum and SLV usually are very good at referring back to these things.

  248.  #248Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 9:21 am

    FW, thank you, Soul Sista! You always give me healthy food for thought.

    Regarding, “you change for you not any man.” But I’m not sure I want to change sometimes. I feel such conflict at wanting to self-love just as I am and wanting to be the girl with a strong man. I just have to find that balance–and I feel positive that I can strike it eventually. It’s still a work in progress.

    As for an avenue for expressing myself–I used to have a blog, but I had to take it down in a divorce situation. I actually have a book or two in the works. Teaching is always a good avenue for an ENFP: I am shaping a path in my brain for teaching in a culinary setting–life just has to catch up to that eventuality though.

  249.  #249Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:21 am

    RE 244 How does silly and childish really feel though?

  250.  #250KS on June 3, 2011 at 9:22 am

    Anymore insights on 221?????

    Really learning from the posts about FM’s. I still tend to suffer from speaking without thinking! Thanks

    FW-Did the cord cutting several times. It helped but there still seems to be some residual! Thanks

  251.  #251Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:23 am

    Also, it’s not about being a “more appropriate” woman for men. It’s about being a more Authentic woman for You… and for the world … and for the relationship you want. <3

  252.  #252Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:23 am

    Boomer I love what Lucy is suggesting to you also. I sense that there is some healing to be done as if there is some sadness that you need to grieve and let go. The vulnerability needs to come out.

  253.  #253Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 9:25 am

    Lily T, thanks. Wow. That felt so good to read. Again: my conflict: am I wonderful just the way I am? Or do I need to be somehow less me the way I am?

    Lucy, I do use humor as a defense mechanism, absolutely, but humor is also a genuine part of my make-up. I am allowing myself to feel how to use that to a feminine advantage and not always in a masculine way. I would not want to squelch it.

  254.  #254Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:26 am

    235 Elizabeth. I agree with everything you said there… so I feel confused about the words “would rather”….

  255.  #255Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Boomer I would explore the fear.

  256.  #256LobbyStar on June 3, 2011 at 9:28 am


    Foolish, immature… neither of which I want to be.

  257.  #257Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 9:29 am

    #253 I find humor a good way to sometimes diffuse a tense situation. Feminine as well.

  258.  #258Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:35 am

    239 FW. Lol! I experience and love those “damn I’m good, I just love me” moments too, just like you describe! 😀

  259.  #259Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 9:36 am

    254: Lucy says:

    235 Elizabeth. I agree with everything you said there… so I feel confused about the words “would rather”….

    Thank you for asking for clarification, Lucy. I realize that I didn’t follow up with what I would rather not do!

    I meant, I would rather not focus in any way, on trying not to come off as being judgmental or not being judgmental.

    Chances are, our discrimination as to what we want or don’t want in our lives is going to come off as judgmental.

    So, I would rather focus on getting everyone’s needs met.

    If this is still confusing, let me know, and thanks again for asking, i appreciate it.

    Hope you and your family are well…hugs to you 🙂


  260.  #260Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 9:41 am

    KS, 221:

    In reading what you wrote, I got a sense of you literally being addicted to ToxicMan sexually. Someone mentioned in a recent thread that another expert says it can take up to TWO YEARS to disengage the sexual (hormonal) addiction to a man (FW, was that material from Pat Allen or someone like that?). And that’s if you never see him and never smell him again! Just because your heart and mind want to rejoin your husband, your body may not have gotten the memo! If it were me, I would be feeling scared and frustrated too: how can I overcome such biology!??

    Here are some thoughts:

    – Don’t try to overcome it. Allow yourself to feel/acknowledge how wonderful he was in bed and cherish the thought of your sexual pleasure. But focus on your role in the sexual chemistry–it was not just HIM who was good…YOU were good too. YOU were why it all felt so good to you!
    – Try to use that energy/focus in bed with your husband: sex with me is ALWAYS good, because I’M good at it!
    – Forgive yourself for crying with your husband–reunion sex is very emotional and there’s a lot going on for you, so allow yourself to feel whatever you feel. And I might suggest not beating yourself up for “lying” to him about it. I have a new realization that it is critical that I feel what I feel fully, but that I have no obligation to express it outwardly to anyone, and in fact, sometimes it’s “not a good time.” to share. Feel what you feel when you cry and then sleep well.

    I hope that was helpful. I feel like a fake sometimes–like I have no business advising other women when I have my own tangled, messy stuff, but I also feel proud of my insights from my “field work” consisting of two marriages, four kids, countless dates, and so on. Warmth and gentleness to you…

  261.  #261Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:47 am

    Oh Boomer! I am not suggesting that you squelch your humor! In fact, as I have become more authentic in expressing myself, my humor has increased and it brings pleasure to myself and others. I was Only referring to when humor is used to Hide the real you. Yes, you are wonderful exactly the way you are! That’s really the whole point of all this – all Rori’s teaching – be You! Express the Real You. Don’t cover up your Real feelings, fears, hopes, sadness with a Mask. Sometimes we have worn these masks for so

  262.  #262Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:47 am

    LobbyStar those as I suspected are thoughts so it sounds to me like you are listening to your NVs and beating up on yourself. I can accept silly because for me that is how I am when I am joking. Feelings are more afraid, hot, cold, sad, overwhelmed. What are you feeling when you are in his presence? Is it tension? If so where in your body does it show up and what is it surrounding? Those are the things I explore with myself.

  263.  #263Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 9:49 am

    so long, that we think they are part of our face! We need to start peeling off the mask so that we can see how much of it is Real (and much of it is!) and how much of it is Defense, Bravado, Walls (and much of it is…) <3

  264.  #264Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 9:50 am

    Elizabeth and Lucy:

    Yes, this is the crux of the “judgment” thing for me.

    Sometimes what some people call “judgment” is “discernment.”

    What I want and don’t want are completely fair things for me to feel and articulate and choose for myself. I think if a man takes it as blame and does not want to be with me, sometimes…sometimes… that’s got to be on him. We were not for each other. We examine what we said, what we did, how we felt with him…and learn. DO better/different next time. Or feel confident that we did well and it really is “his stuff.”

    I sense that several deep-feeling women on here struggle with the intellectual vibe of others (and vice versa), but I am starting to wonder if it’s really it’s just a shade of meaning.

    Gonna go to my Boomer Zone and continue to explore this.

  265.  #265Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 9:50 am

    And sigh…yes, FW…consider exploring my fears. I have several. I feel partially grateful to you and partially irritated that you poke me with your truth.

  266.  #266Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:55 am

    Was it Rori who sad without that happiness or the ability to be happy one is not being feminine?

  267.  #267Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:57 am

    RE 265 Hush sweet Boomer, I’ll love you till I die.

  268.  #268Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 9:58 am

    That was Pat Allen’s material that Loneplum posted above.

  269.  #269Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 9:59 am

    “I sense that several deep-feeling women on here struggle with the intellectual vibe of others (and vice versa), but I am starting to wonder if it’s really it’s just a shade of meaning. ”

    Yes, I feel that also. I hope there’s room for all.

  270.  #270Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 10:06 am


    Couldn’t have said it better myself, Lucy.

    264: Boomer~

    I love this and you are right on the money here.

  271.  #271Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 10:08 am

    264. Boomer

    To take responsibility for other’s feelings is to be in emotional prison. To take no responsibility, as in, “hey, i’m not responsible for how you feel” is just as limiting.

    When everyone can get clear on their needs, those that are deep, human needs, (not the ones we have been conditioned by society to *think* we need),

    and commit to help each other fulfill those needs, then maybe we are getting somewhere!!


    “I sense that several deep-feeling women on here struggle with the intellectual vibe of others (and vice versa), but I am starting to wonder if it’s really it’s just a shade of meaning. ”

    I feel my feelings in my body just as much as the next person, but I also know that feelings come from beliefs and other things. I like to explore this with my partner and trusted friends in a safe, accepting, open, communicative, nurturing environment.


  272.  #272Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 10:15 am

    “Sometimes what some people call “judgment” is “discernment.”

    Yes. I have, over the years, participated in philosophical discussions up the waz*oo about this very topic LOL.

    In the big scheme of things, I am the one who has to discern what is right for me, and my evolution as an individual who is not separate from the whole,

    on a continuous on-going basis, regardless of what anyone else, including myself, thinks about it (judging, not judging) What looks right to one, may look wrong to another. You can’t please all the people all the time.

    also, remember, things can change on a dime…that means ALL things.

    Yes, we want to coordinate that with what is right for others, but ultimately, we are responsible for our own feelings and behaviors and creating our own lives.


  273.  #273Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 10:25 am

    269: Lily T.says:

    “I sense that several deep-feeling women on here struggle with the intellectual vibe of others (and vice versa), but I am starting to wonder if it’s really it’s just a shade of meaning. ”

    Yes, I feel that also. I hope there’s room for all.

    Hey Lily, I feel no reason for concern, like my grandma used to say when we asked to invite an extra friend over for dinner, and wondering if there was enough room at the table,
    “Don’t worry, we’ll make room!”


  274.  #274Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 10:27 am

    RE 269 Boomer I believe that where we allow a person to be themselves, show understanding and love there is room.

  275.  #275Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 10:28 am

    #273 Elizabeth,

    I have felt that way though here…that there are those who would rather NOT make room for discussions that have an intellectual vibe.

  276.  #276Xti on June 3, 2011 at 10:29 am

    Elizabeth, thank you for your comment #272.

    As I read it, I was feeling anxious, recalling memories of my family members.

    I recall feeling their disappointment and judgment and blame at the news of my divorce…each time, it seemed to grow.

    I believed I always made the best decisions for me at the time…and I still do, despite well-meaning loved ones feeling I made mistakes.

    Your comment, “Yes, we want to coordinate that with what is right for others, but ultimately, we are responsible for our own feelings and behaviors and creating our own lives,” resonates with me.

    Now I’m conflicted though about the conditional love I experience in my family. I feel the pressure of their assistance and support as being offered on the condition that I make choices that align with what they believe is good for me.

    I feel tremendous tightness in my chest and sharp, stabbing pain behind my left shoulder blade as I sink into this realization.

    Thanks again… more healing to do. 🙂

  277.  #277Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 10:32 am

    275: Lily T.says:

    #273 Elizabeth,

    I have felt that way though here…that there are those who would rather NOT make room for discussions that have an intellectual vibe.

    Oh, me too, Lily.

    I say, “F&ck ’em if they can’t take a joke.”


  278.  #278Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 10:36 am

    #277 Well that’s one way to look at it lol. Another would be to simply ignore discussions that aren’t of interest and START one that would interest like-minded Sirens. Easy.

  279.  #279Daria on June 3, 2011 at 10:42 am

    You guys I am one of them. Rori has this place set out so that were not having intellectual discussions but rather practicing coming from a heart place. We’ve had this coming up many times before.

    The vibe of the blog changes and feels bad with intellectual discussions – and we want you here – and we want to connect with you. The blog is a place for feeling messages, nonjudgemental, riffing… And ‘boy voice’ is for giving advice… And even then, chances are it might not be heard and we have to be careful of word choice.

    I really want to encourage you firmly to practice girl voice – it’s still you, and it makes it feel safe for all of us.

  280.  #280Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 10:44 am

    I feel shutdown. Again.

  281.  #281Boomer on June 3, 2011 at 11:17 am


    Consider: “We want you here.” “We” versus “you.”

    That feels judgmental and bad for the “you” who process differently.

    I hope there’s room here for everyone as long as they are respectful and sincere. I hope this blog is just not for those who have arrived at Sirenhood, but also for those who are still on their way.

    I would never have known HOW to deliver an FM had several boy-energy “intellectuals” not explained it to me. I feel appreciation for how you teach by example, Daria, but there are many different ways of learning. Hearing that this place is only for people who learn and express in one way…it makes me feel angry, defensive, and protective of those who don’t fit the description (yet…if ever).

    If Rori intends that this be a place only for those who have arrived, she’ll make precious little money and have little impact. I can’t imagine that such exclusivity is her goal.

    Why the need to make everyone see it “our way?” I can go live in a gated community with only middle-class, white Americans who work in IT jobs and marketing and call it safe for me because “this place is only for people like me.” But that deprives my children of the richness that is the real world. I can insist as a teacher that my students listen to audio tapes of my lectures because that’s what works for me. But it excludes those who learn by doing, who are visual, or who need a hybrid approach.

    If I am not right for this place, I will go away and leave it a gated community of homogeneous women. I suspect a large number of more silent, perhaps prudent, women will not stay long either if the “us” folks don’t want the “you” folks.

  282.  #282Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 11:21 am

    278: Lily T. says:

    #277 Well that’s one way to look at it lol. Another would be to simply ignore discussions that aren’t of interest and START one that would interest like-minded Sirens. Easy.

    That’s right Lily. That’s what I do.

    Rori says she loves ALL of the voices here.

    She has said she takes a “zen” approach to it all,
    and that’s probably why it works so well, until some bloggers feel the need to structure things.

    There are no terms of service published for this blog that I have seen.

    good cop, bad cop ? gimme a break!


  283.  #283LobbyStar on June 3, 2011 at 11:28 am


    Thank you, that is very helpful. When I was ignoring him, for a moment after I’d do it, I felt um… excited, defiant?, proud, but then I’d sink into panic, anxiety. In exploring that feeling, I see now that I was afraid I was pushing him too far away and would not be able to pull him back. Which is why I ended up speaking to him again, which made me feel shame and defeated, because I think I knew I wasn’t doing the right thing for myself. I think pushing him away is exactly what I should be doing.

    What do you think? Am I on the right track here?

  284.  #284Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 11:36 am

    276. Xti

    “….Now I’m conflicted though about the conditional love I experience in my family. I feel the pressure of their assistance and support as being offered on the condition that I make choices that align with what they believe is good for me.”

    Xti, yes, that conditional assistance and support thing in my family made me very, very angry. The way I had to deal with that in my family is to not rely on their assistance and support and approval for my emotional, physical and mental well-being or to dictate what I do. I had to be willing to distance myself from it. I worked to not allow it very much influence on what I wanted to do, what I thought was best for me. This is easier said than done, and I am still working on it, because they are not all that conscious of their defense mechanisms and such. After I got divorced many years ago, I became like a dependent child to them again, not only that, but my mom, especially, was looking for a do-over. From working with them in a respectful and authentic way, and because I do not want to alienate myself from my family, they have come around quite a bit, I am happy to report. Hang in there!!


  285.  #285FlowerChild77 on June 3, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Can anyone give an actual example of a FM where there is no ‘you’…stated or implied?

    It’s so hard for me to get out of the “I feel_____ when____” in trying to express myself and only talk about me–no blame or judgement, etc.

    Reading about the restaurant situation really triggered me. I grew up in a home where anger (mine) was never allowed, yet, I always had to be on guard for either parent to snap at me over seemingly nothing. My marriage was also like that. Never again. Impatience is a red flag for me. (Even though the my LT relationship didn’t work out there was none of this impatient, entitlement crap.)

    I’ve read the suggestions, etc. But my brain needs a real example in order to process it and use it as a ‘template’ for future FMs.

    Anybody…? 🙂

  286.  #286LonePlum on June 3, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    260: Boomer  221: KS 268: Femininewoman 

    The info on addiction to bad man is in this link
    on posts 213, 215, 216, 218, 219,
    And the movie « Duty Dating » is in post 154 of the same link


  287.  #287Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 12:30 pm


    What is it you are actually feeling when you perceive someone else to be impatient?

  288.  #288Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    I feel super weird, uncomfortable, angry, and turned off reading parts of this conversation.

  289.  #289KS on June 3, 2011 at 12:49 pm


    Thanks for your time and thoughtful reply. Made lots of sense to me.

    LP & FW-Thanks for your replies too and the link!

    Appreciate it sirens.

    And the beat goes on…..SLOWLY MOVIN FORWARD. 🙂

  290.  #290FlowerChild77 on June 3, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    I was thinking of Rosa’s post #88 where they were at a restaurant—and she also gave other examples of his impatient ‘vibe.’ And, as she stated, it wasn’t a concrete behavior so much as it was her listening to her inner self.

    >>>”What is it you are actually feeling when you perceive someone else to be impatient?”<<<

    I feel rushed and I feel fear, Lily T.

    I feel like the person is just "putting up with me" and, therefore, anything that takes longer than expected is just 'too much' for the person. (Also, I feel like "it's my fault" but I try not to go there.)

    Or…..is this where we trust our boundaries and choose our words (as in, 'No' when he asks for another date)? If he wanted to know why, what would be the Siren thing to say?

  291.  #291Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    I feel uncomfortable because I have seen Rori post many times what she created this space for.

    I feel really sad and unsafe.

    I feel happy that I can create safety for myself. I feel happy that I have the freedom to leave and go somewhere that feels good. I feel relieved that I will always take care of me.

    I feel tired of this ongoing discussion.

    I feel inspired to do something nice for myself and focus on things that make my heart sing.

    I feel free to follow my bliss and that feels good.

  292.  #292LonePlum on June 3, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    91: Lilybelle

    I know what you meant but I was trying humour in English lol
    I am not there yet loool


  293.  #293Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 1:01 pm


    Why not go with simplicity?

    If I were ever on a date with a man who snapped his fingers at a server I would feel embarassed. (I’ve BEEN a server). My response to such an incident would depend upon the man. I don’t feel comfortable “correcting” adults as I would a child, so my response might be a simple “I feel embarassed.” Let him absorb that. Or I might make a joke of it, “You didn’t just do that! I snap my fingers at my cat when she does something wrong -sheesh.” Let him feel embarassed. Or, if I didn’t want to go out with the guy again, I might just say nothing. I don’t owe it to myself to correct his bad manners.

    You might say something like “I feel rushed.” or make a joke about him “putting up with you” as examples. Not every feeling message needs to be structured with “a when___” involved.

    Any help?

  294.  #294Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 1:03 pm


    It was hilarious, LP and really, was what I needed. So funny.


  295.  #295Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Right now I am feeling very triggered by what I perceive as cattiness.

    I feel distrustful and unsafe.

  296.  #296Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    So if I’m feeling triggered, I guess this means that I am being reminded of a trauma from the past and that is why the emotion is so strong.

    Ok, I can own that.

    I do feel similar feelings of being around girls in school and feeling not accepted for being me….like there is something wrong with me for being a sensitive, feeling person and for wanting to be respectful of the rules around a situation.

    And the feelings that come with being judged for being a dedicated student.

    It’s this feeling of not being included in the group because I dare to be different.

    And noticing that I don’t feel safe around some girls/women because of some perceived cattiness. And feeling more safe around men because they seem to be more direct, authentic, and honest.

    And I feel sad for my little girl who felt unincluded and unaccepted.

    Giving her hugs.

  297.  #297Xti on June 3, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Flowerchild77 re # 285,

    I feel a similar angst around the construction of the message. I’ve been mentally working my way through where the feeling comes from.

    For me, I have come to believe that the problem with “I feel [feeling] when [past tense action]” revolves around the “Implied You” that is used all the time in other ways. And it also has to do with passive voice… something I’m familiar with as a writer.

    I hear the implied you in my FM, and I can’t get away from the blaming. So, instead of saying it like this, “I feel embarrassed when … ” I have started working on saying “I feel embarrassment.”

    The difference is subtle, but for me, “embarrassed” necessarily implied “by someone or something” – and the man naturally assumes I’m talking about him.

    By saying “embarrassment” or “I feel judgment” – it’s so much easier to point to the situation as triggering my feelings, not a person.

    So far, I’ve had good results and I’m going to keep experimenting with it. I hope you find that helpful. 🙂

  298.  #298Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Going to nurture my little girl and work through this trigger of feeling unsafe just being me…being a sensitive, emotional, feeling creature.

  299.  #299Senior Lady Vibe on June 3, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    It feels to me like you need some …

  300.  #300Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    Also feeling sad because for a long time I thought being an emotional person was a weakness and then feeling relieved to find that it was part of my feminine magnetism and happy to find a place where feeling my feeling was encouraged and now feeling criticized again for it.

  301.  #301Xti on June 3, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    I’m pondering a few other examples of my version of the FM that I’ve used lately….

    “I feel sad” instead of “I feel saddened (by you)”

    I don’t think I would ever say saddened, but it helps illustrate why just sad works so well. Just try and add “by you” to the end…it doesn’t fit.

    “I feel judgment” instead of “I feel judged (by you)”
    “I feel afraid” instead of “I feel scared (by you)”
    Or “I feel fear” works too.

    Interesting…I just noticed that all my examples are for when I’m experiencing negative emotions. I believe when I’m expressing positive emotions, I actually do use the -ed form of the feeling… so I’m giving him credit for my good feeling, and showing that he can make me happy:

    I feel inspired, amazed, awed, excited, absorbed, turned on…(by you)! 🙂

  302.  #302Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 1:31 pm


    Let’s have some fun. Have you figured out a Pity Party, I mean Peer Party for me yet? I feel curious if you seen my reply back to you about that?

  303.  #303FlowerChild77 on June 3, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    Soooo….how do we know if we’re one of the people posting ‘wrong’ words and, apparently, inappropriate content?

    Usually I just skip over the posts where there is arguing and judging and direct or indirect blaming and shaming going back and forth, but sometimes it’s so ‘dressed up’ and I don’t realize what’s going on until I’ve read down the blog a bit.

    I’m starting to feel like I need to second-guess what I think/feel–which really throws a wrench in trying to learn to be authentic and work things out here. I need to learn to trust myself and my feelings.

    If I totally trusted my gut on all things I wouldn’t be here. I’m relatively new, so I don’t really know….makes me feel like maybe I’m not “sireny” enough to take part in discussions.

    My knee-jerk reaction was to ignore this–but the authentic me wanted to say I feel confused and a little bit ‘scolded,’ as I cannot possibly know as much as women who have been learning from Rori for a long time know.

    Feeling somewhat self-conscious… 🙁

  304.  #304Senior Lady Vibe on June 3, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    @281: Boomer says:
    Consider: “We want you here.” “We” versus “you.”..”

    True, there is a “we” and also a “you.” I’m a “you” when the battle lines are drawn and I watch the “we” change uniforms according to the day of the week. It’s delightful though.


  305.  #305Daria on June 3, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    LG – wow I feel super intrigued by your process with this thank you for sharing! i feel inspired to be brave and take some tiny babysteps for me in looking at that stuff i can relate with you on… the way i felt in school

  306.  #306Senior Lady Vibe on June 3, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    @282: Elizabeth says:
    “There are no terms of service published for this blog that I have seen…”

    What no TOS???!!! Why there must be, complete with mission statement and code of conduct… surely you jest….!!!!


  307.  #307Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 1:43 pm


    It feels so good to see you posting again. I love your humor. 🙂

  308.  #308Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    LG could I encourage you using Rori’s words “we ALL have work to with our perceptions, our thoughts, our attitudes that lead to our feelings”. It seems everyone’s is different. I don’t like to see you sad like this.

  309.  #309Daria on June 3, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    watching battle lines does not feel delightful to daria

    reading that i feel bad bad bad and away and invisible

    i feel so powerless to change the world and the blog

    i so do miss it feeling like a wonderful place of support for emotions

    i feel so lonely here most of the time lately

    i long for that feeling of support and magic

    i feel angry at the people who don’t practice feeling messages

    feeling sad, super sad, like a puddle

    it feels like warmth an dheaviness in my tummy

    it feels comforting

    it feels like tightness around my mouth

    it feels like throwing up in my tummy

    am bent over

    leaning back i feel

    dizzy in my head like blood going down

    heavy cheecks

    down down down washing down with heavy

    i love my heavy cheecks

    kinda cool!

    i feel a spark of joy

    i feel choked

    sigh out

    i feel my tongue stuck to the bottomo of my mouth

    maybe the roof?

    tightness in my solar plexus. or haert

    tingling in elbows

    heavy eyelids

    bright feelig thoughts of other stuff and giggling

    kinda got “bored” with it hehe

    giggling now

  310.  #310Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    RE 303 You are not alone FlowerChild.

  311.  #311Senior Lady Vibe on June 3, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    @302: Lilybelle says:
    “Let’s have some fun. Have you figured out a Pity Party, I mean Peer Party for me yet? I feel curious if you seen my reply back to you about that?”

    I’m sorry… started it but got busy and only peeking in at blog posts for a few minutes and reading them all out of order.

    Must leave now for a bit. I’ll put it up later tonight. Too bad about your Mr. Older Man. You probably got him all aroused looking at the peach fuzz on your neck. Perhaps he had a hard time (no pun intended) keeps his hands off!


  312.  #312Daria on June 3, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    yay thank you everyone for showing up to be my therapist

  313.  #313Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    Am I missing something I see no battlelines. Or am I blind?

  314.  #314Senior Lady Vibe on June 3, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    typos… should be:

    Perhaps he had a hard time (no pun intended) keeping his hands off!

  315.  #315Daria on June 3, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    felt when a man is about to “leave”



    really feel the loneliness then

    the longing to feel embraced

    to be made love to

    to ‘bond’ with a man

    thank you man for showing me

    how i feel

  316.  #316Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    RE 312 Daria I have not addressed anything therapeutic to you so I feel confused?

  317.  #317Xti on June 3, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    Elizabeth re # 284,

    Thanks so much for your thoughtful feedback. This is an area that is deep and difficult for me. I have at times also had to distance myself from my family, but as I’m going through a 3rd divorce, it doesn’t get easier to deal with the “I told you so” body language and facial gestures.

    In some ways it gets harder actually… the NVs love to get that payoff.

    I feel a little overwhelmed by how much work there is to do… Usually I look back and see how far I’ve come, but in this area, I feel I go back beyond square one to some negative number because it’s cumulative with each divorce. Like some kind of compounded interest. lol

    I remember Rori saying there was no square 1 though. I will feel encouraged by that. 🙂

  318.  #318Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    RE 281 Oh Boomer I am wondering what mood you are in today? Is that the way you really want to express what you are feeling? Or is that Warrior Goddess showing up now? You know I love every part of you. Can I invite you to share what is happening? If not please feel free to do so when you are ready.

  319.  #319T-Girl on June 3, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    I don’t have much time to read or post this weekend. I just wanted to say to everyone to have a great weekend. My daughter will be with her dad so that means I get to enjoy some time with Poker Player. I haven’t seen him since Monday and last night it really hit me hard about how much I miss him. I feel super excited to see him this weekend!

  320.  #320Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 1:54 pm


    Maybe he thought I was a baby.

  321.  #321Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    AGE wise, I mean.

  322.  #322Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    RE 290 That sounds to me FlowerChild as “unsafe”.

  323.  #323Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 1:56 pm


    I read it exactly as you intended it.
    How about that.

  324.  #324Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Hi everyone, took me awhile to catch up! I’m sure I’ll miss a few things I wanted to comment on… but I had a lot to read!

    Mel, I think you are doing great, and the fact that you’re applying for jobs may wake him up…. that this isn’t a joke, he’d better be dang sure because you aren’t waiting around for him to figure it out. I was so afraid of a separation, didn’t want that to happen. I was embarrassed of what people would think, didn’t think my ex should need that time, or that he’d even want me back later. He did, but the crazy thing was, in 5 months, I had changed, stood up for myself, and thought more about my own happiness than his. Now, we both did more work, and if we’d tried to reconnect later down the road, we may have been more ready for it. Regardless, I think it’s a fabulous thing to focus on yourself, rather than be there to help him pay the bills. I do agree with FW about men needing respect, but it’s awfully hard to respect a man who is acting this way. So, respect yourself. I am SO proud of you!!!! 🙂

    Kaitlyn, I am so glad he called you…. I love that this is working out this way. I’m so excited to hear what happens next.

    Jilly, hotpilot’s concerns are valid, and it’s great he voiced them. BUT, if you envision a different future, being a stayhome mom because you value that, as I did… then it’s good to discuss those things. I flat out told my husband before we got married that I wanted to be a stay home mom when we had children. I waited to have them until it was a workable budget based on his salary, and I was blessed to be home for 7 years. The fact that it’s not living up to what you’d hoped it would be, is an important realization. The no orgasm thing… does he ever make you orgasm? Oral, etc? If not… that is selfish.

    SLV, nice to see you again! Everytime I clear off the passenger seat in my car, I think of you and sweetie… and I make room! 🙂

    LUCY!!!!! I want an Australian man! Yummy! Keep me posted!

    Boomer, I think we might be a lot alike. I relate to everything you write. The strong thing, isn’t bad. We have to be as single moms. It’s not a choice, and I think all mothers find inner strength… maybe some of us just voice it more than others. I’m sorry about boyscout, but so glad you realized it early and are sticking by your boundaries. You could have easily said, I’ll come to see you every other time, I’ll pay for dinner, etc. I think he’ll be back though!

    FW, I know your heart is always in the right place… all that matters.

    I don’t get the argument about intellectual conversation not having a place here… Rori wants us to be sirens, and they are damn smart! I haven’t seen any intellectual conversations here that made me feel uncomfortable or unsafe. There has been some cattiness that I think has no place, but that isn’t based on intelligence in my opinion.

  325.  #325Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    Oh Turquoise, Maybe it was YOU I was thinking desired an Australian man and not Lucy after all.

  326.  #326Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Yes Lilybelle.. I have said that when I mentioned my dream man…. Imagine Keith Urban with darker hair, slightly taller… SIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ok, so this is what I’m dealing with, and realizing I don’t trust myself enough to do this right yet. Mike2 has been great. Texts me sweet messages, wants to see me often, picked up my washer for me last night, ended up going to dinner with me and the girls last night. I told him I felt more scared about his health issue than his not having a job. He’s very stressed about that, and is looking, putting his pride aside to consider jobs at a third of his normal income…. so I’m not worried any longer than he doesn’t want to work.

    So, another guy, train engineer guy contacted me a few days ago. We had emailed on POF a few weeks ago… but never came of anything. I’m meeting him for dinner tonight. Mike asked me if I was busy tonight and I said yes. I had dinner plans. I didn’t elaborate, and he didn’t ask with who… but I don’t know what to say if he does. Things have gotten physical, we are bonding… I like him. I just know he’s in no position right now to persue a serious relationship with a future. I don’t think he’ll like it that I’m dating other people. SO what do I do? I like him, would really like to see where it would go… but this isn’t going to be a quick change in his life unless he finds a great job soon. He’s going to be struggling for awhile. Is it just bad timing? Do I keep my options open?

    HELP! I’m not good at circular dating when I like someone. I use it when they are letting me down. 🙁

  327.  #327Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    RE 324 Turquoise3 “! I haven’t seen any intellectual conversations here that made me feel uncomfortable or unsafe.” I agree and to think that some of the FMs sometimes feel like a brick landing in your chest makes the intellectual more acceptable.

    Your comment also reminds me of other coaches who talk about The 3 brains of Mr. Right, Intellectual
    attraction, even Rori I believe I have seen where she spoke about intellectual connection and taking into consideration that we are mind, body and spirit it seems like asking a person to forget a part of their being. I understand that FMs help us share our heart and spirit but being authentic sometimes means acknowledging that we feel intrigued and inspired by such discussions at time and can engage in a stimulating one.

    Though this is me, I feel better when I am told directly what is not a FM or maybe what I am saying is an intellectual discussion rather than being scolded.

  328.  #328Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    That should say I’m not good at circular dating when I’m happy with someone.

  329.  #329Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    RE326 Turquoise3 I have seen Carol Allen talk about timing being off.

  330.  #330Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    As well as circumstances working against you when you are in what she calls a Cycle of Saturn.

  331.  #331Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    LOL, LOL SLV I feel delighted to see you are back with your unique brand of insights, humor and links!
    You were really missed, you should’ve seen! (maybe you did!)


    @282: Elizabeth says:
    “There are no terms of service published for this blog that I have seen…”

    What no TOS???!!! Why there must be, complete with mission statement and code of conduct… surely you jest….!!!!


  332.  #332kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 2:31 pm


    i like what you wrote but here’s what i ended up sending. i had to send it after our call last night like he asked.

    When Adam called last night, he said it was because I hadn’t answered his ‘tell me more.’

    I told him I was writing it as he called. He asked me to still send it even though he called. It’s something he’s always asked when that happens and he digs it.

    I sent:

    ‘It felt nice when you called Saturday. I feel shy right now, but I’ll open up the more we get to know each other. I’d like that. I always feel taken care of when you ask how I’m doing…shooting a lot for work and personal, learning vid, dreaming in 24p, still working out, and still reading like a fiend. And, yes, I melted when you called me.



    thats what i was writing whilst you rang. good night’

    But I haven’t heard from him at all today. He is usually very quick to respond on emails, and it’s 3 hrs ahead where he’s at.

    arrrrgghhhh what if i ruined everything by apologizing last night and when he asked if i was dating anyone, i told him the story about how i tried but cried in the parkg lot cuz i couldnt fathom being with anyone else. what if i didnt keep the convo light enough? what if he’s thinking why get too close to her if my stay in la will probably be short?

    all this siren tutelage i’ve had here and i screw up.

  333.  #333Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    316: Femininewoman says:

    RE 312 Daria I have not addressed anything therapeutic to you so I feel confused?

    Hi FW, I will let Daria speak for herself, but my interpretation of her comment is that she is (wisely) using all of our posts and interactions as therapy for herself, much like we do when CDing the men. I think that’s awesome.


  334.  #334Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    RE 333 Makes sense. Thanks.

  335.  #335tinque on June 3, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    kaitlyn – Your message was lovely. Give him a chance to process, and remember a man’s timetable does not at all resemble a woman’s.


  336.  #336Xti on June 3, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    FW re #330, have you ordered a Saturn report?

    I did and my most recent cycle occurred while I was married to the man I’m divorcing now. We separated during the cycle but then reconciled. The report also highlighted a cycle when it was not good to have children… and I miscarried twice during that period of time. I conceived my daughter shortly after the end of it.

    I’ve also ordered the right man report, which was helpful, but not as clear as I expected.

    I don’t feel regret about getting the reports, but I’ve gained much insight just by learning about my vedic chart. The moon constellations fascinate me!

  337.  #337FlowerChild77 on June 3, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    FW#322 Yes…that’s a simple, more succinct way to say it. I’ve felt ‘unsafe’ for most of my years on this earth. Feeling safe and secure and able to relax into “now” is all relatively new to me.

    I’m working on not flinching at quick movements and trying not to be triggered by anger….trying to replace my conditioned reactions with authentic, thoughtful/confident responses. Anger usually makes me want to hide or ‘disappear’—or possibly “fix it” (over-functioning/people pleasing.) Both reactions are self-defeating.

    Yes, I have huge issues around feeling safe and feeling invisible. The things that kept me ‘safe’ in the past are also keeping me from intimacy.

    Lily T. and Xti (#’s 293, 297 and 301) Thank you for explaining this to me. The differences in forms of the words is so very subtle.

    I’m guessing that a decent, emotionally healthy man would ask, “Why?” or “Do you want to talk about it?”—and that the defensive guy who takes offense—before caring about how I feel or what I’m trying to say—-is just “giving me information” on whether I want any more dates with him. Am I on the right track?

    I’m not a nut-case—just trying to become a more authentic ‘me’ 🙂

  338.  #338kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    yay 335 I can stop clawing my nails into my skin.

  339.  #339Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    305: Daria says:

    “LG – wow I feel super intrigued by your process with this thank you for sharing! i feel inspired to be brave and take some tiny babysteps for me in looking at that stuff i can relate with you on… the way i felt in school”

    yeah, I think everybody feels left out sometimes, you know? It’s part of the circle of life

    My suggestion, we all go watch that movie
    “Mean Girls” and come back and discuss. 😉


  340.  #340Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Yes, Flowerchild, I’d definetly say you are on the right track. 🙂

  341.  #341Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    RE 337 I believe it would do you good to explore those feelings FlowerChild. That sounds like you abandoning yourself rather than self soothing when the fear shows up. Hopefully someone can help you deal with it.

  342.  #342Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    326: Turquoise3 says:
    Yes Lilybelle.. I have said that when I mentioned my dream man…. Imagine Keith Urban with darker hair, slightly taller… SIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Oh, be still my heart!!!!

    I wish him for you!!!

  343.  #343kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    Tourquoise, omfg this guy sounds like hotness.

  344.  #344Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    I went to my daughter’s graduation earlier. They showed a video clip two of the girls made with pictures of them much younger. I felt emotional just looking them as babies and wondering where did the years go so fast I started crying. I was able to feel my heart, femininity and aaawww. Something I had shyed so much away from in the past.

  345.  #345Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    317 Xti

    “I remember Rori saying there was no square 1 though. I will feel encouraged by that. :)”

    Yes, absolutely, xti! That sounds very good. Start from where you are, now. We don’t have to dig ourselves out of some big hole we’ve shamed and blamed ourselves for putting ourselves in. That’s insanity, victim mentality. What’s past is past, and the way we learn and grow is by making mistakes! Mistakes are not a bad thing. Radical self-acceptance, that’s the key.


  346.  #346Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    OlderDude sent me an email this shortly after I got home last night, asking me what my “take” on the evening was..

    I replied indicating that I found him to be a kind man with a good sense of humor but that I didn’t feel we were a match.

    He replied back this afternoon saying.. “I feel the same way but wanted to know what you thought first.”

    Um, ok.

  347.  #347Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    RE 339 Whip It was one Rori had suggested we watch. She wrote an article about it related to cattiness and how when it was expected it didn’t happen.

  348.  #348Daria on June 3, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    oh the therapist thing is like CD when EVERYONE who shows up is our therapist

    they “trigger” old stuff to come up in us

    so whenever anyone shows up – the tool is to Thank Them for showing up so that I can heal this stuff!

    by going for my feelings UNDER my perceptions

    even if it really seems they attack me or say something mean, it TRIGGERS me therefore giving me a chance to process whatever my old stuff had me feeling… and sink into it and soothe it in the moment

    then i get bigger and more expansive and less triggered overall

    so thank you to EVERYONE and even everything!!!

    everyone is helping me heal yay!!

    love to all

  349.  #349Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    346 Lilybelle,
    That struck me funny. What do you think his response would have been had you said you felt a connection?

  350.  #350Daria on June 3, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    YAY FW I feel inspired hearing about your “aww”

    i feel blessed to have surrendered to honoring my feelings also

    who me? i thought i was so steel cold and inside was this golden gushy sunshine child all along

  351.  #351Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    RE 346 Lilybelle CCarter always says emotions are contagious. I have heard Rori I believe on Virginia Feingold Clarke interview say they can sense our intentions. Think if “we are one” spirit will talk to spirit no, or is that subliminal communication? I have heard a coach say set your intention and be clear on what you want.

  352.  #352Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 2:58 pm


    Today??? FW, your daughter graduated today??

    #1 Guy has that affect on me at every turn. I cry at so many of the sweet things he does or how he sometimes likes to take care of me. He is the very, VERY best of who I am.

    When he was just a teeny baby, I found a card from a mother to her son talking about that time of his life when he is trying to spread his wings and untie the apron strings a bit. I bought and have had it in my mother’s journal all these years. It is fast approaching his 16th birthday, my heart breaks a bit more with the letting go as each week passes and it is almost time for him to receive that card. Then he can spread his wings a bit more and not worry that he has to take care of or please me.

    If there is one thing that I am most excellent at, it’s being his Mom.


  353.  #353Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    RE 348 Thanks for that explanation. Thanks everyone for being my therapist.

  354.  #354Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 3:01 pm

    She graduated from Middle School.

    Re 352 Oh gosh that felt like a wide open heart. Thanks for sharing that. I feel like my heart connected to yours. I feel it all the way down in my midsection.

  355.  #355Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:01 pm


    Lily T!

    That is the same EXACT thing that I thought and I chuckled out loud. I believe that is why he wanted to know what “I” felt first.

  356.  #356Elizabeth on June 3, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    “And, yes, I melted when you called me.”

    ahhh…they love, love, love the melting.
    The recent x showed me that, but it was so sad that it was difficult for him to immerse himself in the deeper intimacy of that… he’d notice himself losing himself and was like, “ok, ok, that’s enough.”

    Another wounded one. very wounded. sad. 🙁


  357.  #357Mel on June 3, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    Thanks Turquoise.

    This isn’t easy, but I’m taking it one day at a time. Yesterday I accidentally called him “sweetie” and it just felt terrible and bad because right now he’s NOT my sweetie and I have to accept that.

    I need to win the lottery so that I can go on an extended vacation (solo)!

  358.  #358Lily T. on June 3, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    #355 Lil,
    Yeah, I would have taken it as he was trying to save face. I mean, if he wasn’t interested in you, why email you for your opinion on the date? Smiling and shaking head.

  359.  #359Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:05 pm


    *sniff sniff*

    Nothing can move me to open my heart wider than him.

    Someday, when I feel completely safe here, I will share more about him and my heart surrounding our situation. This is where my deepest darkest hurt from having been judged comes from. This is the hardest thing for me to heal. I just keep stuffing this one. And it’s mostly me, judging ME.

    *I did and do the very best that I can.*

  360.  #360Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    RE 355 Remember we are emotional leaders. Most times guys don’t know what they are feeling. Remember it is one of the reasons they get defensive and run away when we bring up feelings? I believe he was a wise man for asking, and so early. He knows he cannot trust his feminine intuition and feelings

  361.  #361Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Lilybelle am I reading right, is it your son?

  362.  #362Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:09 pm


    Congrats, FW on your daughter’s graduation from Middle School..

    So sweet.

  363.  #363Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    RE 358 I am reading “fear of reject”. It is softer by email than face to face. Why would he put himself in a place to possibly show his vulnerability when he is rejected. I think it is not masculine.

  364.  #364Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:09 pm


    Yes, whenever I refer to #1 Guy, it is my son. 😉

  365.  #365Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    Thanks Lilybelly

  366.  #366Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:14 pm


    I believe that if my answer would have been different to him, his would have mirrored mind.

    No matter though.

    Bring on the next one. and Lilybelle, TRUST the intentions that you set and TRUST your gut instincts. They are telling you something important when you feel that in your tummy.

  367.  #367FlowerChild77 on June 3, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    FW#344 Your post touched me. I have four grown children and know the feeling well (seeing how much they’ve grown brings a tear or two.) It’s a combination of sadness at missing them when they were small—and gratitude and feeling proud about who they’ve grown into. ((Hugs))

  368.  #368Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    Mel I feel conflicted about the sweetie comment because you shared earlier that you wnat the marriage to work. My thinking is that tough times does not change him from being your sweetie if you love him. Even if he chooses another woman or to be single for him to feel happy I am wondering if that changes how I feel about someone. I seems like only being able to love them if they love me back.

    I am taking this as you being my therapist on this one and I am processing here and just wanted to share. Hope it doesn’t trigger you I have exes that I still feel are my sweetie though they are with someone else. I never got married to any though so I will not judge you. Just wanted to share my thought process..

  369.  #369kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    I flattered A a lot last night. He liked it but I could tell his low self-esteem felt sometimes it was too much.

  370.  #370Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Thanks FChild

  371.  #371Daria on June 3, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    so weird/ cool!

    im having the same “issue” come up with what LOOKS like 2 vastly different guys

    one super gangster guy

    and one super nerdy guy

    both of them want me to reassure them.

    gangster guy wants me to leave pof with him and only date him and also call him

    nerdy guy says he wants to be wanted and nurtured and get calls from a girl too


    and im like oh no!

    and it triggers my insecurities!

    and i thought i was super going out on a limb by dating nerdy guy… and i feel … not quite repulsed but very very platonic towards him

    while gangster guy is one *I* reached out to and was totally attractive to me


    and yet here they are showing to INDEED! as Rori says

    be the same “type” as far as emotional giving!


    and i’ve been sharing !

    woo hoo!!

    nerdy guy seems like he’s stepping up a bit. said well it’s a preference not a standard, so ok

    he seems soo analytical hehe aww

  372.  #372kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    I also don’t like how he asks for details of what I’m doing these days with work, but doesn’t tell me his. I know what they are thru fb, so I didnt ask on the ph convo last niht as to not pry/lean forward. hmmm…

  373.  #373FlowerChild77 on June 3, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    Lilybelle#352…When my oldest son was born I read something that talked about how from the moment they’re born our children are growing *away* from us. At first it made me sad…but then I realized that it’s true and it’s what we really want anyway–to raise an independent person.

    I often look at pictures of them when they were small or find some piece of “art” they made at school and brought me as a gift….that love never goes away. No matter how old they are…those precious memories will always be yours. <3

  374.  #374Daria on June 3, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    what i feel when i think they might ‘walk away’

    is fear… that im gonna be alone AGAIN

    that i will always feel lonely

    i feel the loneliness really intense in that moment

    like a fear urgency desperation

    and a sadness hopelessness


    i love me

  375.  #375DE on June 3, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    Laughing Goddess:

    I felt the same way…and I felt deeply inspired the way you expressed yourself 🙂 Thank you for being u 🙂

    Warm hugs,

  376.  #376LonePlum on June 3, 2011 at 3:44 pm


    I was thinking
    You said once that you wished you knew what he reproaches you. You said all was fine during 10 years.
    But you also said he had trashed you among your common friends to the point you don’t dare talking to them again.
    I would use his trashing as the information I am seeking. The point would not be if he is being fair or not, but how he sees and feels me, so I can find the disconnect between my marriage and his marriage.


  377.  #377Daria on June 3, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    ohhh i feel so proud of me!! i feel so happy with the steps i am taking!

    go Daria go!

    i am so brave!

    i am dating men so out of my comfort range!!

    go DARIA!!

    i will heal sooooo much!

    super EXPAND!! my comfort zone!!

    ohhhh so happy about it

  378.  #378Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 3:48 pm



    Oh yes, FlowerChild..I know and it is how *we* have been raising him. I couldn’t be more proud of the young man he is becoming. It is thrilling to watch him and how he interacts and treats people. He is the way he is because of something that I had and have a direct hand in. It’s so cool.

    And still tugs on my heartstrings so hard.

  379.  #379DE on June 3, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    Wow… I felt deeply hurt by the recent dialogues pertaining to “intellectual conversations” vs “feeling expressions”…To me this a place for healing…like ‘Addicted to Pain Recovery Anonymous”…Being reminded how to get to the core of me…feels amazing and reassuring …

    Reading the few posts, as a defense mechanism, my initial reaction was “naturally” judgmental. So, I said to myself “look it son’ bitches”…what a perfect example of gossip…passive aggressive behavior…hiding behind polished words, caustic undertone, and of course, intellectualisation…

    But then, I stopped myself…what a great opportunity for me to work on my trigger…noticed…I felt angry…hurt, fearful…and that felt like being stubbed in my tummy, my heart bit raising to get off my chest…memories of work related “gossipy” women…who couldn’t get me for being a “foreign”…and “who the hell is she to tell us who do our work…I am an American for goodness sake…eyes rolling when I try to express myself…saying they couldn’t get my accent…etc.”

    I often look back at my accomplishments and diplomas…I am 38 and I feel like crying saying this…cause neither helped me create real happiness or joy in my life. Then, I felt compassion for myself…how many years I wasted…

    I felt tearful…and then, I tried to expand my own self-compassion towards much older women and try to place myself in their place…accepting a totally different approach to create deeper connections WITH and FOR themselves must be so much harder…due to their life experiences, the subconscious has stored so much more “themes” …”ego based beliefs”…”self-promises” that keep them stuck…:(

  380.  #380Mel on June 3, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    It felt bad not because I don’t want him to be my sweetie, but that HE so obviously does not WANT to be my sweetie.

    In that moment I felt abandoned and rejected.

  381.  #381Jeannette on June 3, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    Okay sirens! Steve is being bumped up on the liver transplant list because of his cancer and he may be going in as soon as a month to get his new liver. Our agreement was that he was going to stay here with me during it so he can convalesce. Then we are supposed to make marriage plans when he’s better….SOOOOO, I am scared….I mean of the obligation first, then what’s down the road. I don’t know if he’ll ever be able to work again because he also is insulin diabetic. I’m scared for his life and to be frank, I’m scared for me too….It will take him a very long time to recover…..even if he does. I need your support and truthful thoughts on all of this. You’ve always been honest with me I know!

  382.  #382Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Whew…..deep breath out.

    How do I feel?

    I feel somewhat at peace.
    I feel touched by the kindness and authenticity I see in others.
    I feel compassion for my sensitive inner girl.
    I feel smiley saying that.

    The voices I am feeling triggered by remind me so much of the voice of my mother.

    I feel sadness when I think of that disconnect.

    Tears coming.

    When she was being strong and hard, I felt soooo disconnected from her and wrong for being me.

    My heart hurts so much just thinking about this.

    I don’t want to be hard. I want to feel safe being soft.

    Still working through this.

  383.  #383Mel on June 3, 2011 at 4:13 pm


    He trashes me among HIS friends (not common friends). Whenever we have any sort of disagreement, even if he’s got a huge role to play in it, he immediately starts texting and griping with his understanding (single) friends.

    I just feel like if he can blame me for everything and get his friends to agree with him, than he doesn’t have to take any responsibility for his actions.

    For example, a month ago we hosted his friends over at our place for a BBQ. He got SO drunk that he passed out on the couch for 2 hours and I was left to “entertain” his friends for the remainder of the evening. I’ve never felt so embarrassed. I didn’t handle the situation well after they left because I was SUPER angry, so it ended up being a big argument between us. Instantly, he’s on his cell phone texting his friends about how horrible I am. And of course they say, “oh, no problem, we didn’t care that you were drunk!” And so he feels this is all just dandy and I’m the unreasonable one.

    So… I don’t know how much I can learn from these exchanges. Basically he thinks I’m unreasonable.

  384.  #384Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    And feeling triggered remembering how many times people have mistaken my kindness for weakness.


    I feel so angry about that.

    I feel the urge to run away and hide, lock myself away from the world.

    And I know this is my stuff to work through. And I know not to take things personally. And I know I am in charge of my own happiness. And I know that sometimes people resist new information.

    And the bottom line for me is…don’t take things personally
    and for the most part I don’t yet I still feel sensitive to the voice of my “mother”.

    And I so wish she would have encouraged me to embrace my sirenness. And I so wish she would embrace her own sirenness.

    And I know I need to be patient and accepting of what is.

    And I am an adult now and I can honor myself. And it doesn’t matter if not everyone “gets” me. There are lots who do and I feel so appreciative of them.

    And the people that don’t….well I can’t change that. I can choose to take the high road and trust that the rest will work itself out.

  385.  #385KS on June 3, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    I love to watch the process of you processing. 😉
    So beautiful. Keep going girl. Yay for you.

  386.  #386Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    Thanks DE. I feel deeply inspired by the way you expressed yourself as well. (((hugs)))

    I am the same age as you and sometimes I feel a generation gap with some women that I feel unsure of how to bridge.

  387.  #387Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    KS: Thanks love! I feel so happy to see you here. I’ve been missing you and wondering how you are doing.

  388.  #388LonePlum on June 3, 2011 at 4:38 pm


    ***Instantly, he’s on his cell phone texting his friends about how horrible I am. And of course they say, “oh, no problem, we didn’t care that you were drunk!”  ***
    Did you read the texts he sent?


  389.  #389Laughing Goddess on June 3, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    Daria: Thanks for your acknowledgment. I’m trying to work through this by sticking to my feelings and taking responsibility for my triggers. You have helped so much through your example of doing that.

  390.  #390Mel on June 3, 2011 at 4:40 pm


    No, I didn’t read them, only saw him do it. He later told me about how his friends agreed with him that it was no big deal.

  391.  #391kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    I worry I’ll be alone forever as I have been because it’s tiring walking that thin, unsteady wire between ‘am i leaning back too much/am i leaning fwd too much’

  392.  #392Mel on June 3, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    I understand what you are saying though LonePlum. He experiences me as unreasonable, or controlling because I had a problem with his behavior (that he had no problem with). That’s how he sees things.

    I guess I’m just not sure if I can ever be “OK” with some of his behaviors.

    I comes back to the fact that he can choose to do whatever he wants, but I don’t have to “hire him” to to treat me badly.

  393.  #393DE on June 3, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    Laughing Goddess #384:

    Wow…that was an amazing riff…and soo self-revealing…i am the opposite…

    People have mistaken my “strength” for being able to “handle” the “emotional abuse”…which in my case only made create a stronger protective shell for myself…when to the contrary…i feel so mushy and melty inside…if i could take upon me the cares of the world, i would do it gladly…

    Big warm hugs,

  394.  #394RiverGirl on June 3, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    Hi Sirens! I haven’t been following along very much lately so trying to catch up.

    Mel, you are sounding great! I haven’t said much about your situation as I’ve never been married so didn’t feel I had much useful to say to help you. As others have said, it might be time to completely drop the “relationship ball”.
    Take yourself out to do fun things with friends. If you are usually the one that makes sure the grocery shopping is done and the dinner is cooked, then stop being the responsible one. Have a lovely soak in the tub and forget about all the household chores you “should” be doing.
    Like Rori has suggested somewhere (in one of her DVDs I think) turn your routine on its head and make it completely about you.

  395.  #395kaitlyn on June 3, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    why am i regrtting my convo with him…why am i crying

  396.  #396LonePlum on June 3, 2011 at 5:51 pm


    ***Instantly, he’s on his cell phone texting his friends about how horrible I am. And of course they say, “oh, no problem, we didn’t care that you were drunk!”  ***

    ***No, I didn’t read them, only saw him do it. He later told me about how his friends agreed with him that it was no big deal. ***

    You did not read the words « Mel is horrible »

    Here is a scenario I see as possible  and you will add the necessary changes to it so we can see clear :
    You told him it was embarrassing to see him passed out when his friends are home.
    I read that as meaning “I am embarrassed because I worry about what your friends thought of you and me when they saw you drunk.”
    He probably told you he doubts his friends think less of him because he passed out once.
    You insisted it was embarrassing (meaning to him you know for sure his friends think less of him for passing out).
    As a result, he probably simply asked his friends if they felt offended because he abandoned them and/or if they thought anything bad because he was drunk.
    They simply texted back that they did not think anything special about it.

    None of it was related to your quality as a person.

    He might have worried that you might be right, not because he does not want you to be right, but because if you were right, then that meant he offended his friends. From there, he checked if he really offended his friends, he was not trying to make you wrong, but rather to find out if he had some wrong to repair himself.

    This does not qualify as trashing.
    Would you remember another example of when you felt he was speaking wrong of you to others ?

    ***I comes back to the fact that he can choose to do whatever he wants, but I don’t have to “hire him” to to treat me badly. ***
    Of course you don’t.
    My point is you said you wish you knew what he reproaches you. And I thought you could see what he reproaches you through his trashing.
    That’s why I am asking if you remember what he said against you.


  397.  #397Lilybelle on June 3, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    Yes, Kaitlyn, why are you crying?

    Remember? You can’t say or do the wrong thing with the right man. Your conversation went well. Your subsequent email to him was good.

    I strongly suspect he is processing and that’s good but it doesn’t matter what he is doing. YOU didn’t do anything wrong. There is no wrong, only what is. Get your vibe back up there… (remember, energy travels).

    Go for a run, get your nails done, find me some new clothes, take your focus of what you perceive to have done and put it on the good that is you.

  398.  #398RiverGirl on June 3, 2011 at 6:11 pm


    Sorry to hear that Boy Scout turned out not to be one who was ready to tame you. But he certainly saw that you are worthy, he is just admitting that he is not up to the task so is stepping aside to make room for the guy who is. It still sucks though. (Hugs)

    I heard you when you said “And once again I had to hear about how “strong” I am. (It’s a sore spot for me, I admit. It’s the main word I hear applied to me.”

    I have that said to me a LOT and my nvs try to make it into a negative thing and tell me I’m not being feminine enough and that I don’t have a man because I am too strong and not vulnerable enough.

    I’m getting more accepting of my inner strength these days. I have a silly visual image of myself as an avocado which helps turn around the negative thoughts; swollen base, slightly dimpled skin with delicate, soft, creamy, flesh and a solid core.

    Its all true about me, feminine hips, a bit of cellulite, quite fatty flesh and a strong centre. Avocados have all these things and they are delicious!!!

    I also noticed what you said to Rosa
    @ 198 Boomer says:
    “Rosa, you wow me. Your voice here is so competent and kind and strong. I just wanted you to know that I admire your clarity and kindness. Your words always inspire me to do better and to be more thoughtful.”

    That is so true about Rosa and it seems to me that it is equally true about you Boomer.

    Yay for strong, self respecting women who are learning to reveal their softer feminine sides. Good strong and unique men are drawn to us.

  399.  #399Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    RE 380 aaaww Mel. I believe he does not want himself. Even the drunk thing I can’t imagine how he might feel about himself around that.

  400.  #400Mel on June 3, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    I wasn’t embarrassed for him though. I was embarrassed for me. I was so angry at him for leaving me to entertain his friends at HIS BBQ. I felt really uncomfortable and false as I tried to pretend that this was all perfectly normal and not strange at all. So my point is that it doesn’t matter to me if his friends don’t mind if he passes out. I care. But he was only concerned with how his friends may have felt.

    As for what he says…

    I am a b*itch
    I am unreasonable
    I am crazy

  401.  #401Mel on June 3, 2011 at 6:24 pm

    Re: 399 FW

    Yes, I can imagine that he feels pretty embarrassed for getting so drunk. But I’m only saying that because that’s how I would feel if it were me (but I can’t really know).

    It’s just easier for me to be the scapegoat though, and for him to be angry at me than it is for him to admit he was acting childish. This goes right back to Rori’s current post. He’s mad at me because he’s really mad at himself. I can see that this could be the case for a lot of what’s been going on.

  402.  #402RiverGirl on June 3, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    @ 400

    Mel, I haven’t read all your earlier posts, but I when hear people say those sort of abusive things about another person it is usually because of their own feelings of inadequacy. They are lashing out because they feel bad and they are lashing out at the person who cares about them because they want to hurt something so they don’t feel so hurt inside.
    It must feel horrible to hear those things, but you know this is not about you. xo

  403.  #403Mel on June 3, 2011 at 6:37 pm


    I am a person that can take constructive criticism. I just don’t find trash talking constructive.

    During our conversation earlier this week when I put all of my cards out on the table, I asked him “Is there something that you feel you’re not getting from me?”

    He just said “I just want to do things that I perceive as “normal” and I get in trouble for it.

    He wouldn’t elaborate much more on which “normal” things he wanted to do.

    Porn? Dating sites? Going out with (girl) friends alone? Spending most of his free time with friends and not having to feel guilty about it?

    Sure, these are normal things. For a single guy.

  404.  #404Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    RE 403 Mel you realize that is focussing on the things that hurt you. He could possbily be focussing on something else that hurts him, so he uses these things you hate to numb his pain. He seems to say he gets in trouble suggesting he might feel judged by you? What do you think?

  405.  #405Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    RE 400 Mel I know this is a strong reaction and I take responsibility for it, but I hate how you personalize those descriptions.

  406.  #406Mel on June 3, 2011 at 6:59 pm


    Yes, I admit I may be focused more on the negative things he does right now.

    He might feel judged by me. I’m feeling pretty judgmental regarding certain behaviors.

    The question is whet is the pain really about then? Hopefully this will come out in counseling.

  407.  #407Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:00 pm

    RE 403 Mel I am not sure what it is but this question “Is there something that you feel you’re not getting from me?” smacks to me of a kind of I will give if I get. I am feeling fear around saying this because I know you are in pain and don’t need any criticism but Rori wrote an article about change your words, change your life and I am now wondering if that is what is happening. It does feel like giving back or sharing love. Sorry if I trigger you here.

  408.  #408Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:02 pm

    Mel are you judging yourself? is what came to me. Do you think you choose the wrong partner?

  409.  #409Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:03 pm

    These are things I would process internally for myself and make eternal peace with.

  410.  #410Mel on June 3, 2011 at 7:08 pm


    This was a phrase another coach suggested, actually.

    Interesting…. I didn’t say anything to him about what he wasn’t “giving” to me. It’s always interesting to see how others perceive things though.

    I mean… his needs are somehow not being met by me, no? Married men just don’t decide one day that they no longer want to be married, and start trolling on dating sites.

  411.  #411Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    Elizabeth, thank you for your response. I wholeheartedly agree with focusing on getting everybody’s needs met. To me that is what Love is, and to me, Love is always the focus. And – I have learned that coming from a place of non-judgment – as much as possible as we grow and heal – allows the most Love to flow among us and ultimately meets everyone’s needs most fully and effectively. The way I see it, whenever we judge, we are blocking the meeting of our own deepest needs and those of others. <3

  412.  #412Mel on June 3, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    Re: 408

    Yeah… I really am questioning whether or not I chose the right partner.

    But this is difficult because then what about all the other things that I thought were so sure in my life? How could it take me 10 years to figure out I chose poorly?

  413.  #413Femininewoman on June 3, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    Hugs Mel but I believe you did choose what you wanted back then and your choice was right. It felt right otherwise you would have felt the dissonance.

  414.  #414Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    Mel, I think you are handling this very gracefully tonight. I’d be telling people to back off. If you haven’t walked in my shoes… why assume you know what’s going on????? This is triggering for me because I went through a very similar situation, and I had to deal with so many of the same issues you are.

    I believe it is possible to hate someone you also love.

    It’s possible to be so blinded by pain that you question all choices and decisions you’ve made. Of course you loved him, but he’s not treating you right.

    I called my ex honey the other day, during a normal conversation, completely out of nowhere… it was uncomfortable for me, I don’t think he even noticed. Some habits take a long time to break I guess.

    You have every right to feel what you are feeling. It’s normal and I think you are doing so well to be planning ahead.

    You are a nicer person than I am. I would either have dumped a bucket of water on his passed out ass or ended the party early. My ex’s mother came to visit once and he was too busy playing poker on the computer, she was giving me a really hard time, criticizing me for how he was behaving, the course of our marriage, etc. so I grabbed the keys and left. He called to make sure I was ok, but I was really ticked, needed some space and took it. I didn’t much care how either of them felt at that moment, I knew I needed space. You are doing an awesome job and I am so proud of you for thinking about yourself and what you need now! I love the suggestion to not worry about grocery shopping or cooking dinner. Any friends at work you can go to happy hour with after work? Let him miss you a little… see what life will be like without you. You may decide you don’t even want him anymore. That is what comes from being in the driver’s seat. You suddenly realize you can go anywhere, do anything… your life is in your hands!

  415.  #415Mel on June 3, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    “I’d be telling people to back off.”

    LOL. Meh. I can take it! 🙂

    I don’t mind being reflective and open to how others may perceive my thinking or words. And I don’t think anyone intended to be harsh.

    “I would either have dumped a bucket of water on his passed out ass or ended the party early.”

    Kinda glad to hear I’m not alone in thinking this was a really crappy thing to do to your wife.

    That’s what I wanted to do… instead I got him a pillow and a wash cloth and made excuses for him.

    Maybe that’s why I’m so angry about it. I’m angry at myself for treating him so nicely when I should have just hopped in the car and left his friends and his drunk ass to cope with it.

    Rori said something once about how if guys know they did something sh!tty and you still treat them nicely (by overfunctioning), they will disrespect you because they think “I don’t deserve to be treated this nicely. She must be really beneath me.”

    I do notice that after an argument… when he’s stewing and refuses to apologize or take any responsibility, he will often not want me to do anything for him. He wants to make his own dinner, laundry, etc. Makes sense now.

  416.  #416Mel on June 3, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    Thanks for your words Turquoise. I really do appreciate your support!

  417.  #417Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:30 pm

    Mel, the main problem with your niceness to him in that situation was that it was incongruent with your authentic feelings. This distinction may help you see the difference btwn boundaries (loving of self/other) and judgment (unloving of self/other). You felt bad – honoring your boundaries would mean walking away from the situation, expressing your feelings, etc. No need to judge him; it just feels bad to You. Some women would genuinely feel fine with it, maybe laugh it off, have fun with his friends, get h

  418.  #418Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    get him a pillow… Different people, different needs, different boundaries. It’s okay for you to want and need what you want. You don’t have to make it his “fault” if your wants and needs no longer match up. He has apparently changed. You don’t feel good and safe with him this way. It’s about your feelings, not his behavior. And if he doesn’t want to meet your needs, it’s his choice, and then you get to choose whether to stay or go. I was in a very similar situation too and i handled it poorly. You are do

  419.  #419Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:35 pm

    You are doing so great! <3

  420.  #420Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    398 Rivergirl. I love this. Especially the last paragraph. So true! <3

  421.  #421Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    379 DE. Love it. Beautiful. <3

  422.  #422Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 8:54 pm

    Welp…. Train Engineer lives with his parents!!!! 40 years old, makes 80 grand…. and LIVES with his parents! He has a daughter, they help with her, but she’s 15!

    He came dressed in athletic wear. His profile says fit, he was about 50 pounds overweight. It said 5’10, maybe 5’8…. just not what I was expecting. But, nice conversation… a chance to practice.

    In other news, a girl I went to high school with, lost her 11 year old son today in a drowing accident at a local pool. He was there for a field trip. I cannot imagine the agony they are in. I worry about my dating life, but have two precious girls to love, who love me unconditionally. I wonder what my life would be like if I invested all the time and energy that currently goes to men/dating/online sites to myself and my family. If love is really meant to be, would it find me if I truly wasn’t looking for it?

  423.  #423Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    Mel, thanks 🙂 I’m glad you can take it, my feathers get ruffled… and it’s not that I don’t appreciate other opinions and see value in them, it’s just when I’m already hurting… I couldn’t take it when someone defended him, or advised me to still treat him like I loved him. He got to look at porn, drink excessively, gamble our money away, and I got to think about why he might be acting that way, see it from his point of view… be understanding. In case I haven’t mentioned, I’m half mexican/spanish… not in my blood to be cool and reflective when I’m hurting!

  424.  #424Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 9:04 pm

    Mike2 invited me over to his house again tomorrow night. Thinking I may go. His parents won’t be there, at least in the beginning. Feels like a good way to get to know someone better by seeing where they live. They also have a heated pool and a hot tub…. it’s the 3rd time he’s asked. Live in the moment and go for it? Or sit here and worry that it’s too soon to meet his family? I think I’ll try living in the moment for awhile. He did meet my girls last night. Chloe (8) gave him a thumbs up, and Caitlyn said to me tonight, “if Mike is single… you should date him. He is really nice, and he seemed to like us. That’s important!”

    She’s 10… can’t argue with her logic 🙂

  425.  #425Kayla on June 3, 2011 at 9:04 pm

    Helpp!! ): “Pickup guy” and I were supposed to go to the movies tonight and I was with him and his friends all day today, things were going pretty smooth until we ended up meeting with some other girls. . . After we met up with them “pickup guy” wasn’t paying any attention to me at all, to me it felt like he was flirting with one of the other girls there, he was paying a lot of attention to her. And then he told me that if I didn’t feel comfortable that he would understand and he would take me home? Right then and there I felt like he wasn’t that into me at all, and I asked him if he still wanted to go to the movies and he said well what do you want to do? And I said well I want to go to the movies but you can take me home. So he said do you just want to go do something tomorrow? And I said yeah that’s fine. I tried not to act sad about it, but I’m pretty upset over it. And on top of that I have a feeling that tomorrow he isn’t going to even try to get ahold of me. Any suggestions on what I should do??

  426.  #426Turquoise3 on June 3, 2011 at 9:07 pm

    I need to learn to talk to men in feeling messages. I really struggle with that, beyond saying I feel excited, I feel tired, That would feel great….

    I sort of used one yesterday. Mike was talking about looking for a job, how frustrating it is, etc. and I told him I felt more concerned about his diabeties than his not having a job. It’s scary for me, and I felt worried.

  427.  #427Lucy on June 3, 2011 at 10:15 pm

    422 Turquoise. I believe the answer to your question at the end is Yes. I think I might be experiencing that very thing right now. I stopped looking, stopped trying, stopped dating. And I am so surprised by the things that are happening now… <3

  428.  #428Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 10:25 pm

    Hey Boomer..I just love this “your voice here is so competent and STRONG ” ….right after you wrote about how you felt anxious that people keep seeing you as strong 🙂

    I so do get your anxiety . I am a “strong” person..I look strong on the outside . Because of my job people come to me for strength when theirs is all run out and I give advice and support and direction . I also look “strong” because of all the personal health shite I deal with .

    I look “strong” like most single mothers look strong , although i only have two teens !

    Meanwhile I have had weak men attracted to me for my strength and Boomer , Boy Scout feels similar from where I am reading.

    What i am looking for is a man who is strong enough to be my “soft place to fall”.

    I am learning how to show my vulnerability more WITHOUT dropping the balls . In the past I couldnt show my sadness or fear or pain to anyone because

    a. they would get very uncomfortable and avoid me (after all i was where THEY came with their stuff.)

    b.I would feel weakened and terrified I couldnt keep going. I was quite depressed and ill for years .

    c. I didnt know how to feel and express my feelings without scaring people away by lashing out in fear or frustration.

    SO I stuffed , and stuffed and stuffed (and I got cancer.)

    So I am now still learning and balancing and trying new ways of self expression. I am using the tools . I feel better.

    BUT I still dont know quite how to deal with this “strong” stuff. I feel scared that people dont see my needs , only their own. But I also am good at empowering other people and I just need to learn to empower ME in the same way.

    I think strength is visible on the outside .
    Empowerment is felt on the inside.

    With the CD’s now that i am seeing , Doc man sees me as an equal in strength , and I am working more on emotional vulnerability. Thats when i will really feel empowered.

  429.  #429Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    As to the FM construction re a mans irritability as observed in subtle exchanges…

    ” I see you waving your card around ..is everything ok ,are you ready to go? (observe ..ask for clarification)
    I do feel a little awkward and hurried after such a lovely meal . It would feel better to just relax a little longer .”

    This isnt right either.

    The issue is when an EMOTION is being observed in the other and verbally expressed , how is it best to deal with that?

    “I see you trying to get the waiters attention. You look a little irritated . Is everything all right because it doesnt feel good to me.”

  430.  #430Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 10:44 pm


    “Having that FM conversation with BoyScout last night was a major milestone for me emotionally.

    For the first time with a man, I am not bemoaning what “I did wrong” to make yet another man leave me. ”

    This is MAGIC! This really is the magic of free therapy.
    Owning your feelings means you clearly feel and see when something is “off” without the ego getting in the way..I love it!

    I did it with first ever BF man when he reappeared a few months ago , then flaked back to his ex, i clearly expressed that I felt angry and vulnerable (he was sucking my “Strength” ) and very uncomfortable continuing any friendship. Basically he was pressing me for a relationship while still pursuing marriage with her and I told him i felt sick to learn this and I didnt want to be any mans spare tire .

    Instead of feeling sad and hopeless and second best (given I was recovering from cancer surgery etc it would have been easy) , I felt EMPOWERED .

    I am so happy you are getting this feeling too.
    It feels to me like having sat nav for my emotional life!!

  431.  #431Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 10:58 pm

    Lilybelle , Your date was so obviously going to “see where it went”. If you had said well it felt good with you he would have been asking for more dates. But as i understand it , it DIDNT feel good at all !

    I am so glad you felt that and didnt leave an opening.
    In the past i would have been “wishy washy” and ended up feeling “not good enough” when it didnt work out.
    Well done Lilybelle. Do you feel good about you?

    I have a 16 yr old son at home. He is gorgeous overall and I love cooking for him. I also drop goodies to my other son regularly – he is living on campus.

  432.  #432Xti on June 3, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    I’m still processing FM construction tonight. It’s so important to me, and today was unusual in that I had the time to read the blog throughout the day, really for the first time.

    I went back to the e-book and reminded myself of something I have had in the back of my mind all day:

    “It is not your responsibility as the Feminine Energy partner to concern yourself with whether your man is happy when you express your feelings. It’s the Masculine Energy partner’s job to care about your feelings.”

    Oh that is so central to the concept.

    I see I’m still putting his feelings over mine. I feel concerned about how he might feel about what I say more than my own feeling.

    More practice yet. 🙂

  433.  #433Ella on June 3, 2011 at 11:20 pm

    From previous post,

    Turquoise3 – thank you. I felt good reading your post about Mike and how you feel it is ok to have guys over sometimes.

    Made me feel more relaxed.

    And SLV – Welcome back!!

    I have missed you. Feels great to have your voice back here. I always think of you as my blog sister who helped me get over having my tonsils removed and introduced me to Freecell! Lol.


  434.  #434Ella on June 3, 2011 at 11:23 pm

    Ok, I realise I felt a bit jealous seeing Rori’s posts to other Sirens on the last thread.

    I felt attention starved, like why doesn’t she notice me? Am I not a good enough Siren to have a comment?

    Trigger for my approval seeking tendancies in real life.

    Its ok I love me and it is fine that I want to be noticed and loved. And if someone doesn’t for their own reasons it is no reflection on me… and I can still love and appreciate myself.

    Hugs to me.


  435.  #435Ella on June 3, 2011 at 11:29 pm

    Rosa re 430,

    I LOVE this.

    It is something I have been noticing too in my life, this shift away from letting a man’s actions influence my sense of self worth.

    If he has a problem it is his issue.

    CD-ing means I can express and move on without getting all screwed up just because he wasn’t able to step up or didn’t cut the mustard in some way.

    And it feels good. Even if I don’t get the desired outcome… And the best thing of all.

    None of it is about him, or his actions, it is about how I respond.

    And the more I respond in a way that is loving and respectful of me, the more my self esteem raises and the better I feel.

    Like with housemate dude.

    I can sincerely say I just don’t feel it for him anymore. And the things he does don’t bother me. He is just being him and doing what he does. And I can honestly say that at this time it simply isn’t right for me.

    And I don’t feel bad/angry or annoyed.

    And a lot of this has to do with not overfunctioning!

    Yay for us.


  436.  #436Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 11:33 pm

    Hi Xti !
    I am sure as Sirens we all need reminding of this …ours is not to look after THEIR feelings.

    Thanks for the reminder.

  437.  #437Rosa on June 3, 2011 at 11:37 pm

    Ella …YAAAYYYY re HM dude.
    I just got a bad vibe there.
    I was concerned for you that low mood/self care may have led you into a difficult and painful scenario..

    BUT YOU TRIUMPHED by leaning back and getting to really see him as he is. Just like Rori says , you dont even want him 🙂

    I love how you work through these temptations of old patterning .You are getting very good at it and it feels lovely to read.

  438.  #438Emerson on June 3, 2011 at 11:40 pm

    Hi Ladies, I’m just catching up….and going way back to #4 Paula…
    You are brave and beautiful and do not EVER deserve for ANY man to talk to you that way…good for you that you are choosing to love YOU….and start to circular date. I felt sad reading the story in the beginning, but I feel happy for you how you are handling yourself.
    Much love and hugs…

  439.  #439Ella on June 3, 2011 at 11:55 pm

    I let pub guy come home with me again last night.

    It feels ok. He is just my cuddles guy… that is what he does for me.

    He said he loves me last night.

    This feels very weird, this is a guy who is known for not expressing himself, at all!

    He said it a few times.

    I was feeling a lil weird about stuff bc I was looking at him, he was drunk, and I was thinking ‘is this really what I want?’

    And then I felt sad.

    Sad that I am 30 and am still dealing with this kind of thing. I feel disappointed in myself, that I am not a bit stronger and value myself that bit more.

    I expressed myself to a man last night that I feel needy. I wish I didn’t need a man.

    2 men wanted to step up and look after me and made me offers (bows and arrows I guess) and explained to me how I am worth more and if I choose this I am simply choosing something that is not going to fulfill me.

    It felt sweet that they did this for me and I could accept their love and appreciation of me.

    I realise I am feeling emotional about pub guy and I realise I need to withdraw.

    Because I am feeling angry.

    And if I am feeling angry I am overfunctioning.

    I feel tired and cross of hearing about how he is going to break up with his girlfriend and be with me.

    Words, words, words…

    Mean nothing really.

    I am angry bc I have been listening to his words and essentially fooling myself.

    A couple of things he said make me believe that actually he has no intention of breaking it off with his girlfriend.

    And to be fair, there is no incentive.

    I mean why would he.

    He has the best of both worlds. He has his g,friend for family gatherings and weekdays, and he has me for the pub and weekends.

    Very nice, very convenient, very easy.

    I guess I feel afraid here, of leaning back and then him not stepping up. I feel afraid.

    I would miss him.

    I don’t know why… not sure if he is a do-over of some kind??

    Today I told him I don’t want to so this anymore unless he is single…

    He played along bu I don’t think he believed me.
    Why would he. I have never withdrawn proerly before.

    I have withdrawn and CD-ed, and that has kept me sane, and sooner or later I have always ended up back in his arms… in the same situation.

    I think he feels that I feel emotionally connected/slightly bonded.

    Sh8t that feels scary!

    I just feel so tired if being strong sometimes. Walking away from these men time and time again (like housemate dude and my ex who did the drugs, and many more). Its just feels tiring, like I don’t want to have to be strong anymore.

    So what if I want someone to be there to walk me home and cuddle me.

    So what if I want a man to step up for me.

    I feel worried in case I don’t have the strengh to walk away and withdraw from this situation, this man.

    He said 2 weeks.

    Till he is single. It didn’t feel true.

    In another breath he said how he can’t just break it off after being with someone for a year and a half.

    He said he would get rid of her… and then he said ‘you knew I had a girlfriend).

    Btw I am not asking him to do anything, just expressing how I feel ini the moment.

    When I said I didn’t want to do this anymore unless he is single, and I said this was the last time, he said ‘ok, it is the last time’ whereas before it has always been promises of breaking up with her and being with me.

    To which I have made lots of objections, as I am not even sure he would be good for me.

    Last night I told him I don’t want a b,friend, I want a husband.

    Anyway the mirror for me here is we are both saying words and not meaning them. Me as much as him… saying I don’t want to be something on the side… and I am being.

    Please Universe let me find some strength here.

    To take my energy back out of this situation.

    To make some boundaries and to align my actions with my words.

    I want to trust myself and do what feels good for me.

    I feel hella scared of coming home from the pub on my own. And that he won’t follow me (in general I mean not home) and that he won’t step up.

    I can feel my heart aching a lil here.

    I feel longing and yet I don’t like the taste of these crumbs.

    He told me he loved me, and yet I wonder in some ways if he is just upping the anti to keep the situation how it is.

    If I am not careful this could become toxic for me. If everyone gets to complain and nothing changes.

    Guess I gotta for the work here.

    Nothing feels easy right now.

    And I feel so scared of this step.

    Why? Maybe it is fear of the unknown. Doing something different. Moving away from this familiar situation.

    Owww gosh, I want to do this.

    He said he loves me.

    I feel confused.

    I love me.

    He asked me to come to the pub later.

  440.  #440Emerson on June 3, 2011 at 11:56 pm

    argh, i feel frustrated with CDing right now. i seem to have a lot of FIRST dates which turn out to be the only dates….frustrated with myself because I feel so closed off sexually and with intimacy…i can carry on a nice convo…and use feeling messages, but there is a block…help…I dont like…

  441.  #441Ella on June 3, 2011 at 11:58 pm

    Rosa re 437,

    Yes, and now I am getting to practice again with pub guy.

    And this time it feels harder.

    Urghhh I feel frustrated. When will I be done with this lesson.

  442.  #442Ella on June 3, 2011 at 11:59 pm

    Sorry Sirens for my very long and rambly post, just needed to blog!

    I feel embarressed about the length of my posts.

    Sometimes I feel afraid that Sirens will just see me as drama, as that is what it even feels like to me sometimes.

    Its ok Ella, I love your drama!

    I love you.

  443.  #443Emerson on June 4, 2011 at 12:04 am

    Ella….I feel for you…I was in a VERY similar situation, except he was married.

    I did not know this when I first met him and got involved, but I got VERY attached to him, broke it off when I found out about the marriage, but he was techinically not living with her and separated, but STILL…I was devastated.

    Anyway I did the same thing…trying to break it off and CD etc etc….but would end up back with him. Now it’s been since March, I asked him not to contact me. he has not. But I miss him.

    I feel sad.
    I feel the need for a man to love me and care for me. I cannot always be independent strong woman!

    I know how hard it its. But it feels so crappy to feel like you are being used or lied to. I hate it.

    I feel more empowered CDing and loving myself…even if my CDs suck. Yick. but anywho….Ella,
    it’s a struggle girlfriend, you are not alone.

  444.  #444Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:04 am

    This post is relevant to me right now…

    I feel angry at him bc I am investing and giving to much with the expectation of him stepping up, which he isn’t.

    Do I lose the expectation?

    Yes, but also maybe veer towards ‘it feels good when single men take me on dates and focus on me’ not I will go home with pub guy bc of chemistry and not wanting to feel lonely /low.


    I have a date tonight with a CD.

    I feel very luke warm with him.

    But he is taking me out to dinner at one of my favourite restaurants and I feel excited about this.

    I feel afraid afterwards of getting that low feeling of disappointment because of the lack of chemistry I can feel with these CDs and them not being ‘the one!’

    But Ella remember, this is PRACTICE only. Nothing more… so it is ok.

    That disappointed feeling is tricky though bc that is the feeling that tends to send me off to the pub, and into the arms of pub guy.


  445.  #445Emerson on June 4, 2011 at 12:05 am

    442 I do not see you as drama and no need for apologies.
    You are expressing and venting. IT IS OK.
    much love and hugs…

  446.  #446Emerson on June 4, 2011 at 12:11 am

    BTW I will call my guy MarriedGuy to remind myself that he’s still married. His divorce is in process but it’s taking forever, hence my reason for no longer speaking to him. We met in 2008.

  447.  #447Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:14 am

    Have a date Sunday too. With Mr from the wedding reception who I blogged about last week.

    He is the one who has not much money.

    Well the good news is he got a job again now and then he contacted me to ask to take me out. And this time I just gracefully accepted!

    Thanks Sirens for working through this one with me.

    I feel glad I did not accept a hang out at my place in the end… maybe sometime in the future that may feel ok.

    I feel a lil bit more excited about this CD.

    Although not sure how I feel about him.

    Bu I remember feeling good in his presence. I think…

    I am gonna pay attention on Sunday and really see how I feel around him.

    He has been texting and FB messaging as no money to call me, and I wouldn’t call him.

    Also he has no car right now, as it is broken. So he is using his pushbike. He is coming to me on Sunday. I resisted the thought of ‘should I offer to pick him up?’ NO

    No Siren, men come to me honey.

    And it feels good doing this. Even though I feel a lil bad he has t cycle 15 miles, he he…

    Feels kinda good too.

    Like he has to overcome obstacles to get to me… te he.

    He can be my knight on pushbike! Lol.

    Owww, I feel afraid now in case he doesn’t come!!

    Housemate is going away next week so I will be in house on my own for a whole week!

    Ick, I feel afraid of feeling lonely.

    My plan is to spend lots of time at my mum’s, with my family, and arrnage some time with my friends.

    One other thing I have noticed, is that I start to feel ‘off the boil’ and lose attraction when I do not hear from a guy for a while.

    Like without regular face to face time the attraction tends to fizzle down some.

    Hmmm, I may express this.

    Text and FB messages tend to make me feel bored and less turned on.


  448.  #448Emerson on June 4, 2011 at 12:14 am

    Last night I had a dream that a man of romantic interest/potential….?? (don’t know who?) pinched the back of my arm to get my attentinon in a playful way, and I FLIPPED out and told him DONT EVER touch me that way….it HURTS!!

    In my dream, it really made me mad.

    I woke up and was like what the heck? I’ve never been in a physically abusive relationship.

    Oh but I was pissed!!!

  449.  #449Lucy on June 4, 2011 at 12:15 am

    Ella, I love your “long posts.” I was just thinking about it before you wrote that …When I start reading your posts it feels like, oh, here is Ella, she has sat down and flung her window wide open again to show us every little bit of her heart, where her heart is today and where it wants to go. I see you as this heroine with ringlets sitting at her writing desk putting pen to paper, journaling, and we are privvy to your voice-over as we watch you write your thoughts in this intimate scene thru open window

  450.  #450Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:16 am

    Hello Emerson,

    Thanks honni for your reply.

    I feel inspired by your strength! Well done for stepping away and taking care of you…

    I am going to think of you when I get to that choice point and need to walk away (physically) and go home… or not go to the pub, etc.


  451.  #451Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:19 am

    I feel worried.

    Like am I really ready to do this?

    I want to, but do I?

    It would feel easier just to stay here, in this familiar situation.

    Hmmm, maybe eveything is not black and white… maybe sometimes I will choose new behaviours and sometimes I will still fall into old patterns.

    And that is ok.

    I guess I just would like to take good care of myself right here right now and know I need to withdraw as I can start to feel my emotions getting tied in.

    Yes so for now I want to choose to step back.

  452.  #452Emerson on June 4, 2011 at 12:20 am

    Thanx Ella xoxo hugs…
    good night.

  453.  #453Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:25 am

    Feel like I want to send him a message ‘telling’ himabout my boundary.

    But I already told him.

    Then I feel fear. Like what if he doesn’t know I want to be with him. I do but really have doubts it could ever work, and this is what I said.

    I am doubting myself, like why did I express those doubts.

    What is this Ella?

    Fear… I want to do something, anything but sit with my feelings.

    I want to distract myself with him and ‘tell’ him stuff to try to control the situation.

    That feels a lil toxic.

    I feel a bit screwed up.

    And breath Ella, it will be ok.

    You will see… sink down, Feel.

    Maybe you will be suprised!

    How do I feel?

    Slightly headachy, tired eyes and sore eyes.

    A lil afraid, anxious.

    A lil sad… feels like goodbye.

    I feel sad with goodby.

    Men r like rivers, men r like rivers… he will be back.

    Esp if he loves me, te he.

    But I can say no to crumbs.

    That will build my self esteem.

    Who knows maybe someday I won’t even want him. Like housemate guy… but I can’t imagine that right now.

    Might have a snooze.

    It is still early here. I woke up when he left for work but haven’t gotta get up yet!

  454.  #454Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:27 am

    There is and in my bed.

    I love his smell.

    That is weird… can it be he raises my oxytoxin?

    I am going pole dancing later.

    That can raise it too.

    Te he, and then a dinner date later.

    Yay. I love how I can also raise my oxytoxin!

  455.  #455Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:33 am

    Emerson re 448,

    Hmmm interesting dream huh?

    Maybe it was not so much about physical abuse or hurt. Maybe it is anger at emotional pain?

    Just my initial thought reading about it and your situation with married guy.

    For me when there is anger, it is always because I have let someone overstep one of my boundaries, and really with me it is usually actually anger at myself.

    I mean he is just doing what he is doing.

    It is me who is choosing to be here.

    Maybe your dream is processing some of the feelings from overstepped boundary and I feel so good to hear about you being strong and holding your boundary now.

    Anyway that is just my take, could be totally wrong, lol.

    I love dreams and the tings they can tell us.

    I love the feel of so many of my dreams.

    Hugs. xoxox

  456.  #456Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:35 am

    Lucy… re 449.

    Aww thanks!

    I feel warm and melty.

    And I love that picture, esp the ringlets!

    🙂 xoxox

  457.  #457Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:37 am


    I may star my long posts with the sentence

    ‘Flinging open the wondow again!’


    Hugs to you.

    How are you doing these days?


  458.  #458Rosa on June 4, 2011 at 12:38 am

    Ella , I noticed you felt tired of “walking away” from these men with nothing to offer you .

    What i wondered is if you have started to feel your radar go off when you meet one of them , or when one takes you home? I wonder are you gettign warning feelings yet in your body that this guy is a dead end street , or that one is unavailable ..etc?

    My radar is going off for you so much , but its always easier to see in from the outside.

    From the outside to me , you look sad !
    I am wondering what you can do to fill up your life that does not involve the pub, alcohol, same old faces etc ?

    Are you online dating? I think it would be great for you to have lots of CD’s !

  459.  #459Rosa on June 4, 2011 at 12:45 am

    I just gave the GF speech online to long distance CD who I met once and who cant get organised in advance even when he is in town! He just wrote that he had a friend who got engaged to someone called Rose and he had confided to his friend he had hopes for this Rose (me) ..that felt needy and clingy to me .as he has called me twice and IMed me a dozen times in total.. I wanted to let him know clearly what i wanted and trhat i was CD’ing others .

    “Hope always feels good and I feel hopeful that the right partner will find me ! I am enjoying having some men friends and this has helped me a lot around all the surgery and recovery to go out and share some company without any pressure. I am not seeing any one seriously but it feels good to have friends .I am looking for a long term relationship with the man I will grow old with and that takes some
    time sorting out as I am finding .

    I want to feel comfortable with the right man. I dont want to be a casual “girl friend” ( which seems to be the relationship aim of many men I have met ) and am looking to build something more committed. Till then i feel good keeping my options open . What do you think?”

    It wasnt so good a speech , but i got through to him. He said “casual doesnt suit me at all” and now hes saying that I was the only one of interest on the whole website…ooops …I am feeling an unavailable warning going off..he’s 12 hours drive away.

  460.  #460Ella on June 4, 2011 at 12:50 am

    I feel jealous of ‘her’.

    His proper girlfriend.

    The one who does what she is told and who he says he doesn’t love, or even like very much.

    And yet he won’t break it off!

    It never felt real to me until last night. And last ngh it bothered me. And I feltr angry and sad.

    And I gave him some hassle (well I mean I expressed to him).

    Told him he can’t handle me anyway… cus if I express this usually he gets huffy and says ‘we have discussed this’ and ‘I am getting rid of her’.

    I pushed him last night.

    I asked him to listen to me while I expressed my anger and feelings about this.

    And he did.

    Didn’t help that other people were getting involved, telling me suff about him.

    Just makes me feel confused.

    I would rather trust my feelings and see what he does.

    Bc a man can be different with a different woman.

    And I truly believe this.

    But right now I am not feeling good about things.

    I don’t want to be his ‘other’ girlfriend or whatever (well I can’t anyway cus I am CD-ing).

    I feel confused.

    Why doesn’t he step up.

    He doesn’tt like seeing me with other guys and yet he hasn’t claimed me.

    That is his business.

    Maybe this situation needs some real space.

    Maybe he can'[t step up unless there is space to step in to.

    Maybe he never will.

    I feel sad/confused.

    It felt good hearing that he loves me.
    And it felt bad bc he still has her.

  461.  #461Rosa on June 4, 2011 at 12:53 am

    He just asked me ” can your decision waiti till July?”
    HUH? What decision???????

    I said ” I feel unsure what that decision is ? It feels fine to keep in contact for now , unless I get snapped up of course!”

  462.  #462Daria on June 4, 2011 at 12:55 am

    Xti – you’re doing great! If you want to practice feeling message convos, like I’ll be the man and write to you here, I’m down to do that

  463.  #463Rosa on June 4, 2011 at 12:58 am

    Sorry about the LIVE ACTION Sirens , i am feeling my way here with feeling messages.

    Its a very valuable practice run for face to face.

    OK – this is AMAZING ..from the mans perspective..he just wrote

    “OK. I’ll have to take that risk.It’s always a woman’s decision, I think. A male can put his case, but ultimately it’s the female that chooses. I can recall women talking about “not having a better offer” though, and I’ve never understood that. Most men seem to have a reputation of taking whatever’s on offer, but from what I know, most wait for the best available ”

    WOW I feel Sireny …

  464.  #464Ella on June 4, 2011 at 1:05 am


    No radar still not very reliable! Still don’t trust myself to make good choices with men… Yet! 😉

    My life is quite full… I love my pole dancing, Zumba and my work.

    I love my family and my friends.

    And yet somehow it still isn’t enough.

    There is still a big man shaped hole!

    Lol… but that is good, that there is space in my life for a man… just gotta do the making better choices.

    Have thought about online dating again and tbh the whole thing just feels tiresome. And Ick.

    I don’t really like it.

    Have toyed with the idea of joining EHarmony, and prob will in the future.

    But right now I have big financial issues and working, making money is my priority.

    The pub for me is a cheap and easy alternative to sitting in, or spending a lot of money going out.

    Still have issues with alcohol and I am getting better! Feel pleased and still slightly wary with this in case of setbacks.

    Last week at the wedding reception it just felt so good to be in a different place, with a whole new set of people.

    And last night at the pub I did feel bored, it is so true. And I realised it is no longer enough for me anymore.

    And on the other hand I do still like the pub and those people!

    So babysteps to a better, fuller life.

    Things r a little tough right now. I feel financially stressed and sad that I choose not to have a b’friend to support me while it is tough.

    But I am comitted to the RR way and to me.


    And in answer to your original question, no radar not quite so hot just yet.

    I do realise… but usually not straight away.

    and even when I do that is not always enough, cus I still feel majorly attracted.

    Toxic men.

    But there are also new and good men trickling tino my life too.

    And I am CD-ing, so should be ok.

    I am not sad as such… just feel sad sometimes, and that is maybe what you see here when I express about certain situations.

    Ow, I notice I am feeling ‘bristly’ now… and when I feel like that it usally means a Siren is onto something I don’t really want to face…

    Ok, I am going to sit with that.

    Love you Rosa.


  465.  #465Rosa on June 4, 2011 at 1:26 am

    I am still digesting that an actual man just made it clear that after one meeting he is going to press his “case” when he is in town in July , starting with dinner out . I truly wasnt that attracted when i did meet him that one time ,but I feel he is great CD material for me. He is 8 years older than me and I struggle with that AND he has younger children full time care ..and i dont feel good about that..but mostly its the geographiclas and the fact that i feel nervous that HE is jumping in to an imaginary relationship.

    I am also reminding myself of the excellent Siren advice from Xti..let HIM look after his own feelings., its not up to me to care for them . I just need to be honest about my agenda, and I just did that.

  466.  #466Ella on June 4, 2011 at 1:26 am

    Speech for Mr Pubguy, for next time he approaches me in the pub… (oh no, NV ‘he won’t approach you and you will never get to say what you want to say’ Shut up NV… SHUT UP!!!)

    And so what if I don’t get to say it… if he doesn’t come to me he isn’t a one for me!

    Why do I feel so much fear about him not approaching me? Maybe cus when I am at he pub I start to get that lonely feeling and then I go looking for him and stand near him…


    Ah, got it.

    And I know I should stay away and yet then I worry well the whole night will pass and he might not come and then I won’t get to have that feeling I get when I am with him.

    And yet when he is not there I can get involved in a game of pool, or chatting to someone and feel ok.

    I tried last night to get interested elsewhere, and yet the pull was too much. I tried to stay away and wait for him to come and find me and yet I didn’t, I went to stand near him!


    But then when I am near him he always looks at me, and then grabs me… talks to me… and last night the ‘I love you’.

    Urghhh, why does this have to feel so hard?

    Ok so how about babysteps.

    Try doing something different.

    And next time when I am there, just experiment with sitting and talking to someone else… and listening @ level 2.

    And here is my speech, more for myself and if I get to say it that will be a bonus!

    ‘Hey Mr Pubguy.

    I really like you and it doesn’t feel good to feel that way when I know you are with another woman.

    I feel really attracted to you and I am starting to feel my emotions becoming involved.

    It doesn’t feel safe to get involved in that way with you right now.

    So although it feels hard to me, I want to keep my distance and not hang out unless the situation changes’.

    Arghhh! I feel scared.

    Lol @ me.

    I love me and my scaredness!

    Do it Ella.

    Do it. You can do it.

    Love ya.

    Love ya more than him!!


  467.  #467Ella on June 4, 2011 at 1:31 am


    He is on FB… I wanna message him and do a version of my speech.

    Hmm, have feeling in my stomach that is not a good plan…

    Don’t know.

    I kinda want him to talk me out of it… Like ‘No Ella, you should not stay away bc I love you and I am gonna make this work’

    But he has said that.

    Why am I afraid to withdraw?

  468.  #468Daria on June 4, 2011 at 1:43 am

    Ella – don’t do it! Wait for him to contact you!!!

  469.  #469Ella on June 4, 2011 at 1:48 am

    Did it…

    Said this by facebook:

    ‘I feel attracted to you and I am starting to feel emotionally involved now.

    This situation doesn’t feel good/safe for me to get emotionally involved atm.

    I want to stay away.

    And even that feels difficult sometimes.

    I don’t want to be the other woman.
    I feel silly for putting myself here.’

    Ok, that is it.

    I gotta stick to it now!

    Like with Mr housemate dude.

    Yes, I feel glad I said it… cus I have to stick to my word now… otherwise it means nothing.

    I am going to do it!

    Feel a mix of scared/anxious/excited.

    Woohoo for me.

    Going to make a cup of tea now.

  470.  #470Ella on June 4, 2011 at 1:53 am


    Too late!


    Its ok though… I needed to say it.

    For me.

    Cus if I didn’t I could see this situation going on and on…

    And it is starting to do my head in.

    I wanted to be clear about what I was trying to say.

    Og f8ck… I probably f8cked everything up again.

    I just don’t want to be here. In this situation.


  471.  #471Ella on June 4, 2011 at 1:57 am

    Hmmm, I gotta love lil me doing all the wrong things as usual.

    Its ok though…

    I always is.

    Its said now…

    Now I just gotta withdraw. I can do this.

    Arhhh, I know I am feeling panicky… hence the reaching out… trying to do stuff.

    I reckon the pole dancing will help.

    Daria Do you think I f8cked it all up?

    Although really was there ne thing to f8ck up anyway?

    Feeling panicked. Don’t want to be told he loves me when he is not steppiing up!

    Oh I feel annoyed for contacting him..

    Grrrrrrrrrr! When will I learn.

    Prob never!

    But, I think I also gotta learn to be gentle with myself… cus one tiny slip up, or lean forward, with the righ man won’t make any difference.

    It is the overall vibe.

    Still feel annoyed with myself for being an impulsive Siren though.

  472.  #472Femininewoman on June 4, 2011 at 2:07 am

    Daria that felt like a guardian angel watching over Ella. It felt good to me.

  473.  #473Rosa on June 4, 2011 at 2:16 am

    Ella , WOW! I loved the speech .
    It was so full of self care.

    If you follow through (and i know you will ) and stay clear of him he will either step up or disappear.

    I expect he may not step up as he has already demonstrated his disloyalty to his GF, and that trait is part of him and that would be a good thing if you dont have to have anything to do with disloyal cheating men ! In my judgmental opinion 🙂

    I am SO impressed that you took this action knowing you are calling him on his behaviour and TAKING CARE OF YOU ! How are you feeling? Do you feel better now about you ? Some of that EMPOWERMENT I was waffling about earlier here?

  474.  #474Ella on June 4, 2011 at 2:16 am

    Shame I did not read the post in time!


    Still, it is all just practice.

    Ok, what can I learn here?

    I know that I have a habit of reaching out/leaning forward and ‘doing’ something when I feel overwhelmed, triggered and overload of emotions.

    Hmm, its weird, but I still feel kinda ok about what I did… leaning forward.

    I wanted to say that.

    Want him to know.

    Don’t mind what happens next.

    You know what I feel good that I said it… for me.

    Not anything about him or the relationship, because otherwise I would have felt like I was ‘waiting’ to tell him something.

    And that feels too much righ now.

    I can see how this is a way of closing down intimacy.


    And yet, this way I feel clear now to re-focus and feel turn my energy elsewhere.

    Whether this feeling will change later in the day I don’t know…

    That is what has happened b4 when I have leant forward…

    I will watch and see.

    One thing here is I just wanted to express… I don’t want a specific outcome.

    And I want to put me first.

    Thats it.

    And I feel proud of that.


    I have not graduation Siren school yet and there is plenty to still work on… who knows maybe in a couple of years I will feel ok to sit with those type of feelings in this kind of situation, and not feel the need to reach out to a man…

    Or maybe, I won’t even be in this type of situation.

  475.  #475Rosa on June 4, 2011 at 2:18 am

    Ella I have to ask the question whether you and pubman ever have sober day time interactions ?
    If not then you are healing a BIG part of you right now . I feel excited to read this stuff.

  476.  #476Ella on June 4, 2011 at 2:22 am

    Rosa re 473,

    Thank you so much!

    I am smiling now.

    Yes I do feel good. Even though I leaned forward…

    Prob would have been better to wait till he contacted me but I really want to take care of myself.

    I love the speech too.

    And I will follow through.

    I feel kinda mixed.

    Good, scared, excited… and kinda good yes… like warm feeling inside.

    Worried if I think abou him disappearing.

    But proud of myself too.



  477.  #477Femininewoman on June 4, 2011 at 2:25 am

    RE 415 Mel you are a brave woman and it seems to me learning and being your best self is what you are doing. I am the type of person who will respect how I feel but I will not allow anyone to do anything to influence my behavior and do what I normally would not do. I choose to just walk away. People will push buttons but I feel better at the end of the day when I maintain my feminine grace and dignity so that is where I am coming from. I dislike for instance the way he curses at you but what I have learnt from my daughter is “Is that the way you think of yourself, I would not talk about myself like that if I were you”. In any event just in case you decide this is not what you want I would like you to be able to