Why Are You Emotionally Involved With a Toxic Man

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crying-eyeWhen a man is continually, constantly, never-endingly disappointing you and hurting you and neglecting you and treating you badly…the answer is to ask yourself  “Why am I here?”

Terry is in this exact situation…

“Rori, Here’s my story: Had horrible marriage to porn-addicted jerk for 12 years (six kids). Got divorced. Had several “train-wreck” relationships with guys. The common element was that they felt free to hurt me, dump me, avoid me, play me, and lie to me. They would say they loved me but their actions would prove otherwise. A little over a year ago, I met “Steve” doing community theater.

We hit it off immediately.

His story: He got his first girlfriend pregnant and dropped out after one year of high school to support her (shotgun wedding at age 16). She has threatened suicide and infanticide after each of their two older children (17 and 13). She has been very emotionally and sometimes physically abusive to him. He has stayed “to protect the kids.” They had another baby a month ago.

He has a lot of feminine energy and I have a lot of masculine energy. He says he loves me but our relationship has deteriorated steadily since a big fight three weeks ago (my insecurity reared up), and he is giving very mixed signals and doing almost nothing in the relationship (not that he ever took initiative a lot, but now he won’t even sit in my car with me for 5 minutes). He works, goes to school online, and takes care of the baby all night too.

What do I do? Terry”

Here’s my big(and loud) answer:

Terry – You’re not going to like this…


You are becoming emotionally involved with a man who is still with his mentally unbalanced wife and just had a baby a month ago!!!

Does this sound like a smart move? We all here say NO!!

Drop this “friendship” completely. Right now. Stop.

What you need to work on is your “masculine energy.”

It’s great to be a boy when you’re making money and shepherding projects – completely a losing way to go in love.

If you want to stop the train-wreck – work on yourself with Circular Dating so you don’t get hung up on or involved in any deep way with ANY man – until you can see the difference in the quality of men that show up.

This is so horrible, Terry, I almost thought for a minute you’d made your story up, to challenge me.  (I contacted Terry personally, and she assured me the story is true…)

I want you to hear this tough, tough love that no one else has apparently ever cared enough about you to deliver. Hate me for this, that’s okay, but please hear me.

Love, Rori

(Oh – get Toxic Men if you can – it will turn you around quickly, and give you some power Tools to use to save yourself this minute.)

So…what more can we learn from this?

Okay, Terry’s situation is extreme.  Just reading her letter – we can’t imagine how she could think this was somehow “okay.”  That this man in this situation is somehow even remotely entitled to ANY of her energy at all – much less her love, devotion, attention and worry.

And Terry seems to be immune to seeing that she is humiliating herself.  (5 minutes in a car with a man is somehow acceptable enough to want to see him again?)

Let’s go back to basics.

There are basic requirements for even DATING a man.  He must be available.  He can’t be married (even if he’s separated, he has to be actually divorced).  He can’t be gay, unless either sex is something you never want to have, or you’re willing to have a “best-friends-and-have-sex-with-others” agreement.

He can’t be in jail, or be on trial for felony or something that could put him in jail.  He can’t be an alcoholic, or a drug addict, or a gambling addict, or a porn addict  (or any kind of addict). He can’t be a deadbeat dad or have no income, home, or means of support.  He can’t live off his ex-wife.

These things aren’t games, strategies, or “rules.” This is common sense.

So what happens to us women when we “fall in love”?  Do we lose our common sense?  Do we lose our perspective on reality?  Do we put the feelings we feel that we identify as “love” ahead of everything else and then pay the price later?

And the answer is…yes.  We do.

It might not be as extreme for us as for Terry – but most of us have humiliated ourselves and ignored reality almost as badly as Terry is.  I certainly have.  And I know that part of my wanting to yell at Terry “What are you doing?” is me yelling at myself for hitching myself to a man who never had an intention of loving me long ago.  Many men. 

What was I doing?

In fact – What is Jennifer Aniston doing?  What are half the people we know doing?

Does love make us crazy?

No. it’s not LOVE that makes us crazy – it’s whatever it is we feel inside ourselves that calls the impulse to throw ourselves under the bus for what we feel – “love.”

But it’s not love.

It’s not love for ourselves, because we would notice that we don’t feel good in this situation.  So it CAN’T be love for ourselves.

And it can’t be love for a man, either, because if you don’t love yourself, there’s no way you can love another person – you won’t know what love IS – and that’s most of us at some time in our lives.

What is happening here that what we CALL love is a feeling we’ve felt before, in our families, in our world as children, that others called love.  It was a necessity.  As children, we had to love and believe we were loved – so whatever came at us – we called that love.  And now, when we feel that same thing coming at us – no matter how BAD it feels, we call that love. Even when the something coming at us is actually – nothing at all.

And before we can even recognize it and call it something…we feel triggered ourselves…and that feeling we feel we call love, because it’s the feeling we know that’s been labeled “love.”

The feeling that another woman might label “fear” – it might be the feeling that we label “love.”

The feeling that another woman might label “pain” – that might be the feeling that we label “love.”

It’s all so close there down in the Soup of our emotions.  We might feel “yearning” and, from our experience, call that “love.”

We might feel “passion,” and from our experience, or even the movies, we could call that “love.”

We know what it feels like to care for someone.  To worry about what happens to them and wish them well.  We recognize that as love when we feel it…but it somehow doesn’t translate into a romantic relationship.  Our care for another person somehow get’s all tangled up in our “need.”

Our past gets tangled up with our present, and we “mislabel” our feelings.

So – to make this simple – to cure this problem – all it takes is to rediscover your feelings.

When you feel fear, call it fear, and don’t let your fear of losing love get labeled as “love.”

When you feel anger, call it anger, and don’t let your anger at a man get labeled as “love” for him.

When you feel passion and sexual chemistry, call it passion and sex, and don’t let your passion get labeled as “love.”

Love is actually different for everyone.  We experience it differently, and we feel it differently.  And love going out of us to a man feels different than love coming into us from him.

And there’s the connection I want to make.  And the questions I’d love for you to weigh in on:

Can you LOVE a man who does not treat you with “care”?

Is love a feeling, or is it an “action” word? – is it enough to feel love, whatever that feels like to you…or do you have to DO something with that feeling in order for actually to BE love?

Can you love someone who doesn’t love you back?

Can you love someone in a different WAY than someone loves you…and still call that “love”?

Let me know what you feel about this…and share please your own stories, as I do, about how you’ve recovered from being a masculine-only one-way faucet of love going out to a man, and become a lovely feminine cup that receives and experiences love flowing from yourself, and love a man gives to you.

Love from me to you…Rori

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  1.  #1alias girl on December 1, 2009 at 12:37 am


    terry i feel extremely happy you wrote into rori. that feels very very good and on the right track. like something inside of you KNOWS that you need some outside perspective on this until you regain your sense of self.

    i feel compassion terry. i have been there. totally giving giving giving out out my energy. hopin hoping hoping hoping one day there would be time for me,

    that was what i grew up with…one day hoping hoping there would be time for me. and there never was. and with the men i used to pick, there never was. and with the friends i used to choose, there never was. but i kept giving giving out out out because i just felt there HAD to be a day that would come that it would be MY TURN. and it never did and there never was with those people.

    and when i started paying attention to my feelings i started becoming more in balance with my energy. i stopped choosing people i felt drained by. 🙂 i feel excited just writng that!!

    anyhoo. terry. i feel glad you are here. there is a way out of that kind of crap and a way into your own heart and beauty.


    now for rori’s questions:

    Can you LOVE a man who does not treat you with “care”?
    yes but i do not want to be with such a man and there is no way i would choose him as my man or have him in my life.

    Is love a feeling, or is it an “action” word? – is it enough to feel love, whatever that feels like to you…or do you have to DO something with that feeling in order for actually to BE love?

    love is love. love is just love. it just is.

    Can you love someone who doesn’t love you back? yes. (but i don’t think it’s ever happened!!! heehee)

    Can you love someone in a different WAY than someone loves you…and still call that “love”?
    yes. men love me in a way i do not always “get” at first.

    still though. love schmove. i have needs wants and desires. i have a happy ever after. i have dreams of romance and holding hands and good sex and having a good good man row and sweat and row and love it. so yeah, love it great on a greeting card or a story book but let’s back it up with some good old fashioned rowing.

    spunky. i feel spunky.

  2.  #2Daria on December 1, 2009 at 2:01 am

    I feel so sad! I got triggered by my dad… and I’ve been feeling triggered all day since that episode…

    i feel so little and frightened and sad

    i contacted the Lefkoe people right now to help me. i also contacted the emotional release guy

    i feel sad and afriad

    im glad im feeling stronger about my life ie not feeling like i wont survive otu there or be unhappy.

    i might be getting my period from the way my belly is feeling

    these emotions have been pretty intense today duh. I wish i had someone to be here with me, although i wonder if thats only cuz i want to distract myself from the icky feeling.

    Im glad i asked for help. Im actually clear and direct asking for help now and i expect to get it which is nice.

    I am ok. I got my back. ha. that feels good. can i make myself feel good and amuse myself or shall i stay with the icky feelings and feel them out…? i guess i can do both in a way huh.

    what was i just dreaming? i got so tired at 8 pm and woke up at 12 to make my dad a cup of milk with tea for his chest.

    but then i felt attacked by him and So angry and i decided im not gonna make him any tea anymore.

    so i came here and now im feeling apprehensive that ill be attacked and maybe be kicked out right now which wont feel good because i dont want to be outside in the cold right now, im feeling slow moving and heavy

    i love me

    i feel resistance

    aha i just remembered that on the other side of crap and resistance is pure gold so there must be pure gold on the other side of this i feel disgusting thing

    thas wassup

    maybe i will actually begin to have orgasms

    big awesome ones

    and i wont feel weird or gross touching myself


    i feel sparkly eyed with possibility

    the lefkoe ppl will help me i know they will

    it will all get out of my body in those gulps and big ass yawns and sighs i was feeling during their videos

    i just did one sigh

    i feel happier

    a lil more joyful

    i feel hope

  3.  #3Tina on December 1, 2009 at 4:42 am

    Terry is immuned, she continually throws herself under the bus. I’ve thrown myself under a lot of those same buses. He isnt good for you, not even a remote possibility or fantasy of a future forever here. The first step is not calling him or seeking him out. It’s the hardest step but a nessesary step. I can see from your letter to Rori that you are very masculine enegry, this could might have to be a white knuckle approach. I wish I could be one of your angels, unplug the phone etcetra.

  4.  #4Rachel on December 1, 2009 at 6:04 am

    Rori, I really needed to hear this. I have been involved in a long distance relationship with a man for just over a year and it has been a constant struggle of pain as he has pulled me close and then pushed me away. Over and over.

    Now I’m starting to circular date and have stopped initiating anything toward him. I only respond when he initiates. I have met another man who is treating me wonderfully… he is being the man and I am receiving lots of love and attention.

    The problem is that the good things I am now receiving remind me of moments with the first man. I find myself still laying awake at night (last night!) and replaying the past year. So many beautiful words and promises… and now to be where we are really hurts. Even though I am finding new love, the pain is still so strong. I know that it probably takes time to heal. But I wondered if you have any suggestions anyone?

    I’ve enjoyed reading this blog for awhile. I feel kinda like I know you all!


  5.  #5Sylvie on December 1, 2009 at 7:32 am

    Hi Rori, I feel so glad you said this

    “And I know that part of my wanting to yell at Terry “What are you doing?” is me yelling at myself for hitching myself to a man who never had an intention of loving me long ago. Many men. ”

    Because I feel anxious when you talk in a post about ‘tough love’. I shudder. I think Oh, Oh, here comes some masculine energy – judging, giving advice, jumping the gun without knowing all the facts. Someone yelling at me or telling me what to do strongly never helped me to get out of a toxic relationship.

    Women do that a lot in my experience – give advice to others, think they are always right. I feel furious when someone does it to me. It feels very masculine energy to me.

    OK I feel triggered here and I don’t post here so much because I don’t like all the advice that is given. I DO like the feeling messages about oneself. I DO like the support.

  6.  #6alias girl on December 1, 2009 at 7:57 am

    daria i feel very comforted you are asking for help.for myself, when i was experiencing trauma at my old job the differing factors were

    that i was able to feel my feelings and thus release them
    that i had support from people and from this blog

    and i followed those feelings and i reached some pretty intense stuff as well. and for me there was a shift. a ginormous shift. and the gift for me was the capacity for joy. and also a new normal was a very nice benefit.

    i feel very supportive and loving. i feel very comforted that you have your back and you are caring for yourself through this. i feel supportive. my intention is to contribute to your feelings of being and feeling supported. you are brave and appreciated.

  7.  #7alias girl on December 1, 2009 at 8:02 am

    the “differing factors” from my past. not from you, daria. just for clarification.

    also i feel good to read what you wrote tina. i feel caring and support and compassion.

    good freaking early morning. ay.

  8.  #8Aldonza on December 1, 2009 at 8:14 am

    It isn’t love. It’s addiction to pain. You’ve been hurt in the past by men, so this man is doing familiar things that hurt you and you strangely find those behaviors compelling.

    But it’s still pain and not love.

    A man who is completely wrapped up in his own life and keeps you wrapped up in his life too is not *able* to love you. It’s impossible. He’s in love with his own drama, his own pain. He’s just allowing you to share his pain. Love feels nothing like that.

    Love is a verb. Love is a man who *wants* to be with you and shows you that in numerous ways. Love is a man who cares when he hurts you and strives not to do it again. Men are not subtle. There is no mistaking a man who is in love with a woman. He wants to sing it from the rooftops. He’ll move mountains to spend 5 minutes with *her* if that’s all he can have.

    But life has trained you to view men like that with suspicion. You feel anxious and you squirm under the attention they give you.

    Rori’s tools will help you learn to accept that attention as rightfully yours. And once you do, you’ll see how the painful men are the ones that feel wrong.


  9.  #9Nikita on December 1, 2009 at 8:31 am

    I need help with my roommate. He is still totally trying to outgirl me. It is getting on my LAST NERVE! I love him…..but I could only BE with a masculine man in a romantic way.

    A yummy book—ok, maybe just yummy for me was “the art of loving” by Erik Fromm……I think that’s how it’s spelled…anyway….it talks about all the variations….romantic love, self love, patrnal love, maternal love, brotherly love…..the self love part inspired me to stop smoking once….sigh* that was years ago though and ….well…….the more my roomie frustrates me with his “neediness” the more I smoke now 🙁

    I mean; isn’t the theory that what annoys us about others is what we want to alter in ourselves? I feel angry at him…..but maybe I feel angry that he doesn’t love the way I love……I need space….lots of it…and when he gets home……he wants to show me what he bought….his stupid purchases for the house that I don’t even like…..I feel annoyed because I’m in the zone reading or something……I just scream-SHUT-UP- then he wants to update me about his ex-I DON’T CARE. I DIDN’T ASK-BUT I HAVE ASKED YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME ABOUT IT-IT BRINGS ME DOWN-RESPECT MY BOUNDARIES AND SHUT IT UP ABOUT HER………….SHUT-UP. ……then he says but she’s being abused by the new guy…….and I want to help her but I don’t know if she’s serious or using me or………..SHUT IT UP ALREADY…….SHE CAN GET ON A PLANE AT ANY TIME AND SHE’S NOT SO FUCK HER……LET HER GROW THE FUCK UP AND RESPECT HERSELF…..IT’S BEEN MONTHS….I FEEL TIRED EVERY TIME YOU MENTION HER NAME…THE WHOLE THING FEELS TOXIC TO ME………LEAVE ME OUT OF IT !!!!!!!!!!! IT IS NOT MY PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO SHUT THE FUCK UP……..

    and I don’t feel guilty at all for my feelings….I forwarded him the toxic men e-mail from rori to give to her…….she doesn’t want help-FUCK HER-get out of my headspace….BECAUSE YOU ARE TAKING UP VALUABLE REAL ESTATE IN MY MIND AND I WANT YOU ERASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  10.  #10Simply Shannon on December 1, 2009 at 8:32 am

    I don’t have a whole lot of time to comment today but this post is EXACTLY what I was wanting to write in response to several posts I’ve seen lately. OMGosh! I cannot believe how you do this Rori. Somehow you know the exact thing to say.

    And yes, I have labeled love as something “silent” which is what I learned love should be from my own father. I’ve defined it as how I experienced it as a child. This is so HUGE for me. I could write a freakin’ novel.

    Just WOW for now. I’ll be back. Dang Rori! You are BRILLIANT!! Major paradigm shift happening here. MAJOR!!!

  11.  #11DocK on December 1, 2009 at 8:42 am

    I feel compassion for Terry. Rori is right, most of us have been in a situation that has had everyone around us shaking their heads saying, “WHAT are you DOING with this guy?” I know I have been there, done that.

    I find it so interesting to read this post because I have been thinking a lot about this lately. What is it that makes us want to stay with someone who is behaving in ways that hurt us?

    Time after time, we hear (and I have heard MYSELF) say that this guy has done this, and this, and, oh, then there’s this…to us that is behavior I would term “BAD” in the way it makes us/me feel. In the end, though, one of the most common explanations for “taking it” seems to be “but he’s going through A LOT right now.”

    Gee, welcome to real life – who hasn’t? When someone is going through a tough time – certainly we can make allowances for some CHANGED behavior – even something like a man retreating a bit that we should NOT take personally, but BAD behavior? I don’t know too many men that accept a woman’s BAD behavior (meaning being rude, derisive, attacking, cheating, etc.) because she is “going through a lot.”

    My turn-around came when I finally started to weigh one hurt against the other. When the painful behavior became too much I finally figured out that, yes, I will really cry and feel sad and angry walking away – but at least that means there is an end-point to it. Not walking away means HOPING that his behavior will somehow miraculously change and I will stop hurting – even though I feel like I am hurting all the time. I decided – I get to choose – walk away and hurt for awhile and let healing emergy – or stay and hurt and hurt and hurt…

    I’m not saying it’s easy.

  12.  #12Nikita on December 1, 2009 at 8:46 am

    um yeah….so I checked in with myself and I stand behind my previous post 100% in fact….I feel dissapointed that I didn’t write more in all CAPS because I feel really frustrated……I feel too empathic and I feel a cloudy energy field when he asks for my advice…..but I don’t want to give advice…..I’ve said all I can say….and he’s so caught up in his FEELINGS…there’s probably no room for hers….so why would she risk leaving another state to let him “save her” from her own bad decisions? She doesn’t even want to leave her state….so end of story…….let her boyfriend/ex whatever he his keep beating her ass…….I feel angry!!!! so many other women really do want help and can’t get it-but this girl-he could give her EVERYTHING but she wants to stay down in the pit-cool……..I AM ALL ABOUT FREE WILL……AND IT IS HER CHOICE TO KEEP BEING ABUSED BY EVERYONE AROUND HER….I FEEL PLEASED THE UNIVERSE IS GIVING HER CHOICES AND SHE IS RECEIVING EXACTLY WHAT SHE CHOSE.


    welcome aboard- I feel very suportive of you and I am sending you light and love….I hope your angels take the agony and grief from your heart so that you can heal and feel solid again super-fast 😉

    hugs and love,

  13.  #13Nikita on December 1, 2009 at 8:55 am


    what you wrote felt soothing to me…..I’m feeling so triggered and icky…I feel so happy that you brought the soft light 😉 sigh* thank -goodness for small miracles ….

  14.  #14DocK on December 1, 2009 at 9:38 am

    Thank you, Nikita : ) And believe me, I do some yelling and fussing too into the air at times.

    Rori said to share stories so here is one from long ago…

    I met this guy at “Muscle Camp” – can you believe it? Right there, something wrong with a couple of people that think their idea of a fun “vacation” is training hard and eating tasteless food. Ha!

    He looked good on paper. He was so attractive – face and body – that he looked like he walked out of an underwear ad and my female (and gay male) friends would ooh and ahh over him. He had a PhD, a nice car and a house.

    But he wasn’ t very nice to me. He wasn’t any fun. One time he had me wear a “cheesehead” thing on my head watching football (he was a Green Bay Packer fan) and I actually liked that because it was one of the rare times he showed any sense of humor.

    We had lots of the old – we’re together depending on what week you ask – sort of thing. We broke up – on Valentine’s Day. He said something, too long to explain, I wasn’t angry but he was fuming and wanted to argue. I suggested we just sit down and relax and enjoy TV.

    He continued to walk around fuming and I looked at him, bored, and said, ‘Just leave.’ He did and that was it. No further discussion, done.

    But it took way too long to get me to that point. I didn’t even realize just how bad he was to me. After we broke up a woman from the gym asked me if I was still seeing him and when I said ‘no’ she said, “Good, I didn’t like how he talked to you.” Another friend said that her son told her (again at the gym) that he was at the point that if this guy spoke to me one more time like that he was actually going to get into a physical fight with him.

    I wasn’t completely oblivious to his treatment of me but I certainly didn’t realize other people noticed it.

    I guess I felt inadequate and that if I were just somehow BETTER – prettier, more educated, more fit, more interesting – he would be nice to me because he was just so amazing. I didn’t feel worthy of being treated better.

    I believe what helped me was finding a spiritual community and friends that supported me and deciding that I AM worthy of being treated better.

    Like I said, we all have been there with people that love us rolling their eyes and wanting to shake us. Until we shake ourselves – it really doesn’t work.

  15.  #15Liz on December 1, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Girls, I just feel like crying… I was reading this post and thinking about Terry, her situation, my situation and all of our ‘situations’, and then it hit me… that maybe, when we are in the midst of all that turmoil of feelings and thoughts, it would be a good idea to stop for a moment and think about: what if this weren’t a situation happening to and with me? what if it were my best friend / daughter / sister instead? what would I say to her? is this the kind of situation I would like her to be in? And then, if the answer is ‘no’, then maybe it is just ‘no’ for each of us as well… =0S

    Love you all, girls, hugs and blessings to you,


  16.  #16tinque on December 1, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Rori hit it square on by saying we are attracted to what it familiar as bad as it might feel. We are all born as love, but if our parents or caretakers treated us poorly whatever that looks like, this is what we know as love. They are our parents, so they have to love us, so when they hit, scream, ignore, discard us, this is love, to us.
    It’s a very hard and painful process to reprogram this twisted kind of love into a “real” love.
    This is why we are attracted to the same men over and over until we finally get whacked upside the head in one way or another; we get our wake up call.
    Even so, when faced with the real thing, it’s SO hard to accept, believe, and trust in. And to then open to it within self and to another is not an easy thing.
    I still close that curtain often, out of instinct? out of fear?
    both? At least now I recognize this, and can usually throw the curtains back.

    Daria – I love that you have your own back. And as for feeling okay touching yourself sexually, keep with it. The weirdness will pass. And you will likely find all kinds of new sensations you never thought possible.

  17.  #17Mercedes on December 1, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Terry: I’m also happy to see you reach out to Rori for help. I think most of what’s going on has to do with your own self-esteem and what you believe in your heart you deserve. Unavailable men are very attractive when we’re afraid of the available ones and when we’re afraid of our own inability to be vulnerable. My heart goes out to you.

    Rori’s questions:

    Can you LOVE a man who does not treat you with “care”?

    It wouldn’t be love of the man, but it would be love of the idea of who I really want this man to be. Fantasy love I guess.

    Is love a feeling, or is it an “action” word? – is it enough to feel love, whatever that feels like to you…or do you have to DO something with that feeling in order for actually to BE love?

    If I never did anything with my feelings of love, they would never be all they could be. I need to show the love, not just feel it. If I felt it without showing it or giving it back, I’m certain it would fade. Again…unless I showed it, it would be more like fantasy love…not real love.

    Can you love someone who doesn’t love you back?

    Yes. I have and it hurts…a LOT. But when that love was finally two way for me…the intensity of the love was more than I ever imagined it could be.

    Can you love someone in a different WAY than someone loves you…and still call that “love”?

    Yes…again…been there. But once it was the same and mutual and intimate…it became more and still grows stronger every single day.

    VERY nice post!

    Much Love,

  18.  #18Kaitlyn on December 1, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    I once dated a guy whom after a few weeks hated that I liked chivalry, romance, and things like him parking the car and waking to my apartment door to ring the bell. He said, “Aren’t you a little too old for the fairy tale?” I felt so angry. Then angrier with myself when I kept dating him.

  19.  #19gina on December 1, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    currently hung up on a guy who pushed for sex by saying that he “wanted to make love to me” and when I said that I wanted to wait for “the real deal”, he said “what’s not real about this?” I told him how I want to feel secure and safe, and he said some stuff to skirt around what I was feeling…I felt offbalance, and uncertain, and almost bad. I said no to sex, but he still put himself inside of me and moaned “tell me you feel me…!” I stopped him and told him more about how I don’t feel ready. but then after some conversation, he went for it again, and I didn’t fight him this time. And yet, after having sex he said “i feel bad dating you.” and “I haven’t felt like a man since bla bla bla.” and in the morning, he left early so he could go take his grandparents out for breakfast…I was hungry! what about me?? He has no income, yet every day, I’m sad that he hasn’t contacted me.

  20.  #20gina on December 1, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Also, in the morning, he got up out of bed when I started sharing a story of how my friend was date raped. He said something awkward about how, in college, there was a group that did workshops about date rape. I wonder if he was thinking what I was thinking – that he didn’t really “rape” me, but he definitely was not a gentleman. I wonder if I’m the only woman who has ever felt like he pushed a little too hard for sex. It gives me a new perspective on his earlier behavior – when he seemed to be keeping his sexual urges on such a tight rope (back when I wondered why the heck he didn’t grab my boobs)

  21.  #21tinque on December 1, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    I can’t speak for anyone else gina, but I have certainly been coerced into sex and many times. You would think I would have learned, and I did learn eventually when I was ready and able. It’s okay. As long as you are safe, it’s okay.
    It never felt all that good to me when this happened, not in any way, but I refused to carry guilt around it. I had plenty of guilt around other things but for some reason not this.

  22.  #22Dorothea on December 1, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    The man I lost my virginity was doing a fine job of courting me for all I knew back then. And then I told him I was a virgin and was interested in waiting until marriage to have sex. He thought I was “testing” him. Then when he realized I was serious, he said, “you actually think someone will marry you????” in a biting tone. Aaaaand then I pursued him and made him my man and lost my virginity to him. WTF was I thinking?! I don’t regret it at all though:)

    I relate to this post. It’s almost like it’s impossible for me to feel attraction for a man who is available and shows up for me. I feel sad that the men who treat me the best are the least sexy to me. The men I long for the most are ones from my past who blatantly refused to be available for me. Even today the man I think I would love most to be with lives in another state and has a girlfriend who lives in home that won’t share the bed with him and whom he never seems to leave.

    That said, these are perfect opportunities to practice leaning back with these men. If they are going to really change and become more available to me, then it will be their choice, their making a move, their realizing that they are missing a chance with a goddess who has it together. I DON’T CHASE MEN. They chase me:)

  23.  #23Jennifer on December 1, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    This post is great Rori….and I’m glad someone else brought up the point that perhaps we allow the bad treatment because of our upbringing.
    I didn’t want to be the first to bring it up because I felt worried that you guys would think I was hitting the “Parents at fault” button too often.
    I DO think as adults we don’t have the right to take our hands off the wheel and say “I mess up cause my parents are bad people” There comes a point when we need to take responsibility for our own choices but I do believe we get a “comfort zone” from our parents.
    When B would treat me badly. I would shrug….cause I’ve been through a lot worse than not having a guy say he loves me for 5 years, or having my feelings ignored, or preferring porn to me etc. When I was a kid we got our asses beaten on a regular basis.
    So in comparison it was ok.
    I know Rori wants us to talk about how we switched ourselves around…but to tell the truth I’m not 100% sure. I had gone to see the EFT practitioner and just woke up one morning a week or so later just AWARE that there wasn’t anything wrong with me. So therefore I didn’t need to try harder or be more or do more to get the love I was missing.
    I am enough now….and anyone who doesn’t think so can suck it.
    Is that masculine energy? Maybe….

  24.  #24Melanie on December 1, 2009 at 5:21 pm

  25.  #25DejaVu on December 1, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    Once again Rori, your timing is perfect. The reality of the whole thing is, we are born innocent. What we are given (taught) and what we experience and accept is what we begin to believe is normal, be it healthy or not. Even more amazing is that when there are several children, the craziness affects each one in a different way, and each one carries a different piece of the ‘baggage’ around until they can deal with it, if ever. It is so, so hard not to quietly accept the blame for all of the pain because somewhere you just believe that you must have caused it . It is no surprise that I have had my share of self esteem issues as well as toxic relationships, and it is no accident that none of my siblings have ever been married. It takes a great deal of effort to climb out of the pit, but at least I am trying. This website has been an unbelievable help to me, and I personally appreciate and respect all of the women who share pieces of their life here for the good of all. thank you for that!

  26.  #26Melanie on December 1, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    Maybe someone has some insight into this situation. I have tried to figure out my feelings, etc., but all I come up with is “angry” and “dismissive” — yet I’m not sure these feelings are appropriate. I don’t know if what the guy said was “wrong” or if I had a bad feeling about it because of something wrong inside ME.

    R. is one of the “nice” guys in my circular dating rotation. I’m only mildly interested in him. Last night we were im’ing. He said something about the musical “Joseph and the amazing technicolor dreamcoat” and said that he doesn’t have a coat like that. I said, “Me neither. although my nightshirt is pretty bright.”
    Which was true — it says “good morning sunshine” on it and is bright orange and yellow.
    So, just for fun, I told him I would take a pic and send it to him. I snapped a pic right where I was in the computer chair and it came out kind of cute and I realized it showed a good bit of leg (unintentionally) and I thought that might be fun. Here’s what happened next:
    Him: that’s a nice orange color
    Him:very holloween/thanksgiving
    Me: one dollar at wal-mart
    Him: 🙂
    Him: Well, when we get past the poetry [he’s referring to the fact that he wants me to share my poetry with him but I’m not ready], before we get to the sex part, you may want to invest in something other than a $1 t-shirt from wal-mart.
    Me: hey, if I can’t make that nightshirt work, I’m outta here
    Him: oh. its working
    Him: So, I think I need to get some sleep, as if I could possibly sleep after all of this.
    Him: But, I do have to work in a few hours.
    Me: good night

    Okay, I felt offended by what he said about my nightshirt. But why??? I don’t know!!! Do any of you know why I would feel offended by that? It really made me want to shut down and never talk to him again!!! He has been nothing but a gentleman, a boring non-sexy gentleman, and I am only seeing him because I have to date more than one person. And, that was starting to be our first INTERESTING conversation, but then it took a wrong turn. Was it because of me or because of him? I can’t tell!! I suppose I expected a better reaction to the pic — afterall, that was the most he has seen of my skin since it’s winter and I’ve been fully dressed on our dates! And I shouldn’t have to “invest” in anything (unless I want to) before having sex!! Any thoughts, Sirens???

  27.  #27Melanie on December 1, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    P.s. When I wear that nightshirt, I feel cute and fun and flirty and mischievous and yummy and sexy and bright and happy and open.

  28.  #28Daria on December 1, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    Melanie – how about (to myself or us first if less scary)

    AACK i feel annoyed that by the comment about that nightshirt. If eel fuckin criticized and i feel really angry. Dude I felt so turned off!!! freakazoids. I feel shocked at my reaction , and thats how I felt !!! what do you think??

  29.  #29Daria on December 1, 2009 at 7:10 pm


    whoa that felt bad. i feel confused and criticized, and I feel really angry… I feel shocked its affecting me so strongly, i’m really feeling furious! what do you think?

  30.  #30Nikita on December 1, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    hey Melanie 🙂

    the shirt sounds really cute but…….since you’re asking for opinions…. 😉

    a lady doesn’t tell what she pays for things…… it’s a little old fashioned but- it sort of gives off a “cheap” vibe….. now….I LOVE a sale…..I have a t-shirt that is my fave and it’s a total man-magnet…….it happened to be priced similarly…but I would never tell…..and not a man……

    Now, when he thinks of you or looks at the pic he has a price on it……….a woman is a luxury-not a cracker jack box prize….. a guy pal of mine told me he doesn’t want to know a woman is getting her sleepwear in a bargain basement place…… I would of stuck to ” I feel sexy draped in cotton”…..or something like that…it gives off the whole “natural woman” vibe……I’d also invite him to upgrade my sleepwear if he gets an opportunity to sleep with me sans sex- maybe this is another lesson why feeling messages work so well-instead of being in our heads and talking facts and figures…literally in this case.

    The shirt sounds really adorable-but the info conveyed just doesn’t feel “sireny” to me.

  31.  #31Jo-Ann Downey on December 1, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    Brilliant! I acknowledge you for the deep wisdom and clarity in your statement: As children, we had to love and believe we were loved- so whatever came to us- we called that love.

  32.  #32Robin on December 1, 2009 at 10:47 pm

    Melanie, what you said in your 2nd post sums it up..” When I wear that nightshirt, I feel cute and fun and flirty and mischievous and yummy and sexy and bright and happy and open.”

    Im not really sure what his comment meant, or what exactly he was trying to say…but if it felt bad, then thats definitely something to keep in mind, a red flag of sorts

    Gina, I had a very similar experience with a guy not too long ago, it was long distance, he drove in to see me, and we wound up back at my place, and he was really pushing for sex. We went further than I wanted to go, and it felt awful to allow that to happen, it got so ridiculous, I finally told him it was time for him to leave. And I felt hung up on him for a short while, but the more I think about it, the more disgusted I feel, I feel absolutely disgusted by men who act as if they dont hear what youre saying bc what they want is more important…to me, a man who dismisses how you’re feeling or what you are and arent comfortable with-who totally dismisses what you say-is more toxic than a man who maybe has another issue,such as no income or job.

    Because its all about how you feel about yourself in his presence..

    I feel so glad to see the basics in this post. When I first started circular dating, I know that I said yes to dates with just about every guy that asked, and I always felt confused about the ones with certain issues that showed up, I eventually figured out that I could be selective, and still open-minded. Glad to hear that that is simply common sense.


  33.  #33Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:18 pm

    Rachel, welcome…and there’s a post coming in a few days that will help you with this. The thing is – it’s not this last romance that’s triggering the pain. It’s something WAY back…where you associated love with pain, and love with drama, and love with disappointment and struggle. The good things you’re experiencing are bouncing you into a trauma response – fight/flight or freeze. You’re somehow trying to punish yourself….we’ll talk about this more. Just sink into your feelings, and read the posts here on “Riffing”…the Channeling part will help you a lot, too. Love, Rori

  34.  #34Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:21 pm

    Aldonza, This is beautiful, so helpful and so true and well said. Love, Rori

  35.  #35Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:25 pm

    Dock, Thank you for your story…yep, we all feel “if only we were…..then he would…..” – but it’s just not so. Love, Rori

  36.  #36Aldonza on December 1, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    I agree that sharing the price of something isn’t very sireny. But I felt that he was saying you deserved better, but that he likes the night shirt with his comment about it working.

  37.  #37Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    Gina, Thank you for telling us your story…and this is a job for Boundaries. If you really mean NO, then saying NO should be the end of it. Let us help you with this “wishy-washy” thing where a man can talk you into something. And after he treats you badly…you still want him. And no income. So – what can we do to help you? Love, Rori

  38.  #38Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:34 pm

    Tinque and Gina, I think wanting to have sex is a good enough reason to have sex. But sometimes (this happened to me many times, too, Tinque) we’re ashamed of the simplicity of that desire, and so we require a man to make it happen – to sweet talk us, or coerce us, or something where we feel less responsible for it. I remember feeling totally mortified at the man I woke up with, and couldn’t wait to get him out of my home. So many stories. Thank you all for sharing…love to hear your stories. Love, Rori

  39.  #39Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:36 pm

    Dorothea – What if you practiced feeling sexy toward the men who want you? I know it sounds like a leap, but see what happens if you turn your statement around and insist that the opposite is true – that a man who wants you lights your fire….Love, Rori

  40.  #40Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:42 pm

    Melanie, I felt it the moment I read it. However – this guy was just tripping on his words…he was trying to be cute and funny and teasing you about the nightshirt, saying that sex, when you have it, is going to be great and you should prepare by dressing up, or something like that…and then he recovered and said “it was working” – The way to do this is TELL HIM!!! “Ohhh….I know that was just a clever remark, and you’re cute and funny, but I took it as a snide remark about my T-shirt, which I love and got all offended!” – And then, all of a sudden, you’re into a much deeper connection, which will interest you MORE!! It’s the sitting on this stuff that does the damage. EVERYONE says the wrong thing at some time. The trick is to USE these moments as opportunities to tell the truth about what you’re feeling in the moment! Sound good? It’s doable, really it is…Love, Rori

  41.  #41Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    Great, Daria…

  42.  #42Rori Raye on December 1, 2009 at 11:44 pm

    Nikita, very interesting observation…I didn’t catch it, but you’re right. It sounds “good sport-like” – interesting attitude change to practice…Rori

  43.  #43Tina on December 2, 2009 at 12:35 am

    Oh god, he’s pissed lol. He typed I think faster than ever before. He didnt say anything offensive. I unintentionally took myself off his favs list when I blocked him oops! I didnt tell him this, he just kept typing up a storm. All this over our sexual intimacy convo. I feel like I just made a big mess. He said he still wants to continue seeing me, of course he does, bad messy Goddess.

  44.  #44Tina on December 2, 2009 at 12:42 am

    His chat “loud voice” felt kinda scary, I probibly would have passed out in fear,if it was in person.

  45.  #45Tina on December 2, 2009 at 12:45 am

    like you know those goats…

  46.  #46ABC on December 2, 2009 at 12:59 am

    it’s funny the other day i saw Jennifer Aniston got all hung up on John Mayer on OK magazine and i was just thinking what Rori was gonna say to that! 🙂

    I have to share my story with you guys.

    Not long ago, I was involved with an emotionally unavailable guy. i really thought i was in love with him, yet he just never seemed to be interested in me. at the same time i was dating a guy who likes me and always calls and be there for me.

    so i listened to Toxic Men, i read the book Power of Now, I read the 7 steps to Bonding…i just knew that i need information, and that i am tired of dating the same guy over and over again.

    Then i found out that i am always interested in men who are not into me, and i don’t want men who want me…it’s not about how they look or what they do, it’s their energy of “not into me” that i am attracted to!! i didn’t even realize how toxic i was before. it also had to do with lots of false beliefs i grew up with. i have always been attracted to men who seem more powerful than i am, because i don’t feel powerful/don’t like to be powerful, growing up, people told me power is masculine and that a girl is supposed to be feminine.

    so i feel only “comfortable” to be the less powerful one in the relationship.

    i dropped the emotionally unavailable guy out of my life. and I was determine to let the guy who’s into me to pursue me and win me. He really likes me, always keeps his words. I start to believe that I COULD be attracted to a man who wants me and who wants to be good to me.

    i feel cared for and safe in his presence. yet sometimes i feel confused because he seems TOO NICE and TOO INTO ME, it’s like i have to find out “what his problem is” i know that i am trying to solve problems like i did with other guys. like when i was with the unemotional guy, at least i KNEW that his problem was “unavailable.”

    i notice that i start having anxiety when i let him getting closer and closer to me. i wish i could just figure out the problem before i get hurt.

    then i also know that i am just not used to dating men that are good to me and who are very into me. either i chase men or i shut down when they chase me.

    i’ve never felt this way before–start having feelings towards someone i wasn’t interested to begin with. i have this urge to find “flaws” in him so that i could feel safe, i guess.

    i am curious about the next post Rori is gonna post about triggering.


  47.  #47gina on December 2, 2009 at 1:12 am

    thank you Rori. Hmmm…I could totally go on and on about how I’m so mixed up. But I also know better. I keep searching for some sort of “answer” that makes sense of his behavior. Why do I need that? Cause I feel duped. Why did I allow myself to be duped? I wanted him to show me I was worthy of love instead of me insisting on it. I hate to say that. That sounds so low self esteem. Is it low self esteem, or is it an incorrect romantic fantasy that a man’s sexual desire is related to his capacity/desire/willingness to truly step up? both? When he said things like “I want to make love to you” and “what’s not real about this?” – I played out some fantasy in my head about how we had an understanding that we were into each other, and this sex was a bond we were establishing before he went away. And I sensed that he would and should be away for a long while, because it didn’t feel good to be dating a depressed man with no income. I knew that, and i know that now….it’s just that I yearn for some communication – for him to say that he wishes things were different. that he cares. that he thinks of me. so that I wouldn’t feel so dumb for caring. for giving in to sex with him. so that I could still feel like there was romance, and that I wasn’t “used.” If he were to contact me, I would want to give him a hard time, but I would still hope that he would step up. Even though he’s not contacting me, I feel like I’m in game playing mode. I haven’t identified what my boundaries are. aha! I guess that’s the whole problem…

    I want to feel safe and secure BEFORE i have sex: words are not enough. I need to EXPERIENCE security CONSISTENTLY within a committed relationship before I have sex. oooh… I say that, but then i still fantasize about some other scenario, where he comes around and throws pebbles at my window and I stick my head out and he asks if he can come in and he tells me that he got a great job, but that he’s moving away and we have passionate sex, and then he moves and then he comes back to town with an engagement ring and we get married. Or some other passionate story that involves spontaneous passionate sex. okay…just cause I fantasize this does not mean i have to do this. I feel like crap because I gave in to some romantic notion that he is “the one” based on some hope rather than his consistent behavior.

    I do not want to pursue a man in ANY way. I will not drive to a man. I will not call a man unless he explicitly asks me to. I will not pay for anything.

    It is not acceptable for me to go for weeks communicating via text and email with a man.

    I do not want to feel like a last priority. I don’t care what a man has on his plate if he’s unwilling to make room for me.

    I feel better. That’s a start. Hey…I really do feel better. I’m like “okay, so that’s what I want, and I feel myself energetically feeling out situations that I currently have with men to see who fits this bill. and it aint johnny. that’s good to feel.

  48.  #48gina on December 2, 2009 at 1:12 am

    BTW…I had a very refreshing conversation with a man. He has a rough past – he was heavily addicted to crystal meth and cocaine, and I have to admit that I don’t feel excited about the notion of reproducing with him. but he’s been clean for 4 years, and he’s so honest about what he’s been through. it feels like he’s super clear about his “dark” side and open about how he’s dealing with it. I don’t feel afraid of him at all – i feel good and safe talking with him so far. I noticed that I did the boundaries thing – whoa!! I just realized that it’s sorta similar to what I did with johnny…I bumped into him at the grocery store and we talked FOREVER!! and it totally felt like it was time to continue with my shopping, but i waited till he ended it. which took forever. and I appreciate that he was so willing to wait for me to end it. but I’m a little bewildered at my own passivity. almost agressive passivity, cause I NEW it was time to say bye. Then i did it AGAIN with him when I saw him at work – any time he had a spare moment, he came to talk to me. but when my shift was over, I lingered when i totally had the urge to GO! weeeeiiird. i dunno. It’s like a resistance to my own boundaries or something. maybe I’ll do anything to push love away? crazy.

  49.  #49gina on December 2, 2009 at 1:22 am

    Oh, but also Rori…I really needed to hear you say that Johnny was treating me “badly” – cause i was thinking that he was maybe just in his “cave”. And I still feel a little unclear about this. When a man goes in to “cave” mode, it’s likely to feel bad for a woman who cares about him. What behavior is acceptable from a man in cave mode, and when does it cross the line into “bad?”

  50.  #50gina on December 2, 2009 at 1:34 am

    And I can relate to the desire to have a man sweet talk us into sex in order to justify doing it…but I don’t think this was the case. I was really wanting to know if he felt about me the way I felt about him. and he indicated that he did. but then we had sex, and the contact dwindled to nothing.

  51.  #51gina on December 2, 2009 at 1:39 am

    Earlier that night, at the halloween party we went to, the band played “at last” and he was like “oh we gotta dance to this one…” and so we danced cheek to cheek and it felt so great. It just makes me nuts to think it wasn’t genuine or real. it makes me feel scared to trust my own good feelings.

  52.  #52gina on December 2, 2009 at 2:34 am

    I think I’m majorly triggered by this situation cause it’s so out of my control. I’m scared of relationships in general because of this, and it seems that I attracted one with all kinds of things going on that i’m not clear about, that feels awful.

  53.  #53Kaitlyn on December 2, 2009 at 3:37 am

    Nikita, I agree 100%! It is totally part of the art of seduction.

  54.  #54Lola on December 2, 2009 at 6:17 am

    After my marriage broke up 6 years ago I started seeing a man who would only see me one night a week, he would arrive at my place around 11 or midnight and leave around 3am. He had no money, huge debts and never took me out in 2 1/2 years!

    After that I was with a man for a year who had an addiction and was emotionally and mildly physically abusive to me.

    Then I had a brief relationship with a married man.

    When I look at my childhood, my father was often away, very distant, suffered from depression and I was always trying to please him. As he’s grown older (now 82!) he has got mellower and warmer and I know he has always loved me but wasn’t able to show it when I was a child.

    I am concerned that my daughter (9) will be affected in a similar way as her father is always side stepping contact with her, preferring the company of our teenage son.

    I have suddenly had to look at the impact of my choices on my children! The relationship I am in now has had a lot of difficulties most of which come down to my lack of boundaries but some toxic behaviour on his part.
    I have insisted that he no longer stays at my place when the children are here (6/7 nights) until such a time that our relationship is stable and committed and his urge to run away from it all has passed (if it ever does). I don’t want my daughter to see me as a woman who lets men come and go as they like. I don’t want her to feel that’s good enough for her.

    I feel very embarrassed when I list the relationships I have had in the last 6 years and wouldn’t usually admit to them, but feel it worthwhile in the light of this post. I’m reasonably attractive, intelligent and popular. Why did I never feel I deserved anything better?

    My current relationship has improved a lot since recognising and putting boundaries in place, communicating in ‘feelings’ and leaning back.

    I have spent hours reading everyone’s posts and learning so much from all of you, using Rori’s tools and learning from my friend Mercedes.

    Good luck Terry , I hope this is the beginning of a journey for you.

    I have ordered Modern Siren – anyone know how long it takes to ship to UK?

  55.  #55Melanie on December 2, 2009 at 7:24 am

    Rori, it feels good to know that you “felt it the moment [you] read it.” And you were absolutely right about his intentions. 🙂 Before I read your response, I ended up talking to him about it via im — however, it took almost two hours of baby steps for me to actually tell him what I was feeling and why. The reason I couldn’t just say it is because I DID NOT REALIZE he was teasing, trying to be cute and funny, etc. I thought he was dead-serious. I don’t know if I missed the tone because it wasn’t vocal or because I am overly sensitive. It turns out that part of why he responded clumsily was because I had made him so nervous when I told him I was sending a picture! He said he didn’t know what to expect –how revealing it would be — and part of him was relieved that it wasn’t R-rated (because he was already feeling the heat) but part of him was disappointed. So, now I don’t feel bad about it anymore. But I wonder how I can prevent a misunderstanding like that in the future — how I can recognize teasing vs. seriousness.

    Interestingly enough, the guy who lives in TN, who I haven’t met but we have been interacting for 4 months – from the very beginning I have easily shared my feelings with him. In our first im conversation he said something and I instantly said, “Hey! That hurt my feelings!” And then he told me he was just teasing me. That kind of thing has happened several other times, with me always telling him my feelings right away, and him assuring me that he is teasing me. One time he said, “I’m sorry I hurt your feelings but you know I will tease you whenever I sense your insecurities coming out. That’s one of the things you love about me. :)” And I replied, “Yeah, it used to be, until I found out guys hate insecurity in girls.” Then he said, “Hmm, hate is a strong word. How do you feel when a guy is insecure?” So I told him it depends on how the guy manifests it — that it can be anything from annoying to endearing. I asked, “How do you feel when I am insecure?” He answered, “I think it’s cute and it makes me want to tease you.” This is the guy I said I feel safe with, and some of you pointed out that it’s because he lives far away and is thus unavailable. Maybe. But I think I also feel safe with him because of the fact that I can share my feelings so easily with him, and he responds in loving, fun, and tender ways. Not just hurt feelings either, but curious feelings and happy ones and sad ones, etc. Hmmm, I think the reason I have no problem sharing “negative” or hurt feelings with him is because he is so strong – I don’t feel like I’m going to hurt HIS feelings or his ego by sharing mine. I really like his confidence and strength. It makes me feel like I can be myself.

    Interestingly enough, a month or so ago, TN -guy also got a pic of that same nightshirt — actually, truth be told, I bought it because it made me think of him: he gets that seasonal affective disorder so he needs lots of sunshine and we have talked about sunshine a lot and stuff…. When he saw the pic, he said, “I love that shirt!” And I told him, happily and innocently, “One dollar at Wal-mart. :)” His response (text) was “Sweet.” And then we went on to something else. WELL, last night after reading some of the comments about how guys don’t like knowing sale prices, I texted him: “Because of something I read online, I would like to know if it was a turn-off when I told you I got that sunshine nightshirt for one dollar. If not, would it have been a turn-off if we were dating? Please be honest so I can learn. :)” He replied, “Not to me, no.” I trust him to tell me the truth, because he really doesn’t mind saying things that aren’t “nice.” For example, early on, he told me my facebook pictures were “lame.” Of course, that hurt my feelings and I told him so, but he explained that they looked like snapshots of “mom” rather than the sexy woman he intuitively knew I was. (And he was right — he inspired me to get MUCH better pictures — so much better that when my ex saw them on his mom’s facebook page, he said “You look extremely cute in those pictures!” and has not wanted to leave me alone since.)

    Anyway, I thought about the comments that price-telling was not “sireny.” But, you know what? It FEELS sireny to me. When I happily shared that info with these guys, I felt like I was sharing this: “I am so beautiful and wonderful and lucky and magical, that the universe wanted to give me this nightshirt. The universe knew I would like it and that it was perfect for me and would make me feel happy and cute and yummy — so it GAVE it to me. I received it from the universe! I did not have to GIVE anything to get it (just a measly dollar) because I am so special and deserve to receive special things.” It feels yucky to have to refrain from sharing my feelings of happiness and excitement about getting something for practically nothing. It feels good when a man can share that happiness with me, which is what I felt happened with TN-man.

    I feel amused by Kaitlyn’s words about it being “part of the art of seduction,” because I seem to seduce men without even trying to. (I’m sure others of you can relate.)

    Oh! One more thing — last night R. (the one I misunderstood) told me that now every time he sees something orange he starts feeling aroused because he now associates orange with that picture and the original conversation and how nervous and excited he had gotten. 🙂

    And, Daria, I laughed out loud when I read your suggestions — especially “freakazoids.” I felt understood. 🙂 I just read it again and laughed out loud again. :))) “Dude I felt so turned of!!!”

    Thanks, all of you, for your insights.

  56.  #56alias girl on December 2, 2009 at 7:48 am

    i feel afraid. overwhelmed. nasueous. shutting down. frozen. angry. overwhlemed. i love my feelings of overwhelmed. i feel very alone and well alone. i love my feelings. i love all my feels. i prefer the good feeling feelings but i love all of them. yae. if there were no yuck i’d have nothing to compare the good with and
    i feel angry. barely. ifeel depressed.scared. ah that’s it. i feel scared. yes. and i am in freeze response.and freeze response feels like depression because i feel frozen to do anything. i feel a grinding jaw. rrrrr. i feel angry. i feel trapped in my mind.
    i feel scared. i feel scared of people. when did i give my power to people to allow them to control how i feel? money = power over alias girl. but money is just symbolic. when did i give my power to money? i feel tight in my chest.

    i feel angry. this is good. anger is better than frozen. i feel very angry. i love my anger. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. i feel angry. i will get through this. or i won’t. right? even if i die it’s just my body dying. ok i’m just being realistic. 🙁 i feel sad. i don’t want to die. I’m not done. i feel quivering lip. tears. also better than frozen. good.

    i feel spiteful hateful rage. i love and honor my rage. i love and honor my rage. i hear a nv saying rage is “rude”. wtf. rage is an appropriate response to someone trying to hurt you. thank you rage for wanting to protect me so fiercely. i feel self love. i feel a looser chest. i like that better. i feel judging. i feel judging of judging. those are thoughts? judging is not feeling?

    i feel depressed. i love my depression. i love my past of broken bridges. 🙁 i love that i don’t like everybody. i love that i take people’s effed up behavior personally. well actually a lot less. so that’s pretty cool. ok i am actually trapped in the past right now. why? why? who cares why. i feel soooooooooo freaking bored with the question why. who cares? not i. i do not care why.

    i care about feeling good. money. money. money. faith. money. faith. money. nv central. my desire is to feel confident that no matter what i am secure and taken care of. my desire is financial freedom.

    wow i feel so much better than when i started typing. i feel like selfishly erasing all this now. i feel like not sharing. i can do whatever i want. i am living my life for me. not for other people. is not my job to heal other people. my money is not controlled by my “do good”ness. wtf. i hate that correlation.

    “give more than you receive” wtf is that? and what does that leave you? in debt motherfucker. whether emotionally of financially if you are giving more than you are receving that leaves you depleted and less than zero. stupid slogan.

    my money/survival/good times/dreams/ friendships/beautiful house/romantic relationships are Not dependent on

    being of service
    other people’s opinions of whether i am “good” or not
    working hard
    being approved of
    pleasing others
    convincing others
    pretending i am someone i am not
    doing things i don’t want to do
    kissing ass
    not making waves
    fitting in
    going along with things that feel bad to me

    ah that seems to have an emotional charge for me. i have always felt i have had to pretend. pretend i care more than i do about things i do not care about. pretend i am not freaky weird girl living on the edge of human experience. when in reality i am freaky weird girl living on the edge of human experience. i mean i am not freaky to myself. i view myself as just me. but i get very strognly from my peers that if i don’t tone it down and conform then i will be excluded.

    especially in closed, conventional work environments.

    okeee. okee. dear universe thank you for providing me with people who love who i am and how i live my life. thank you for providing me with people who love what i have to offer. thank you for providing me with situations where my talents are put to good use and i feel fulfilled and rewarded. thank you for lionig that up for me. it feels so good to be loved and accepted without having to pretend.

    thank you for healing any beliefs that do not serve me. thank you for rewiring my mind for HAPPINESS. yes that feels very good. thank you. thank you for my new belief system that aligns me Perfectly with all i desire. i feel much appreciation. thnak you.

  57.  #57Rachel on December 2, 2009 at 8:47 am

    Thanks Rori… I look forward to your post. To be more specific, when my new man says loving things or unknowingly uses phrases that were meaningful in the other relationship, it reminds me of the moments I shared with the first man. And although I’m hearing and feeling the love in his voice, I still feel pain.

    I’m frustrated that I can’t forget and move on. I’m enjoying this new relationship, but too often, I get triggered and end up crying again over the old one. I wake up at night and lay there with memories just flooding over me… I have come so far in seeing who I am and knowing the kind of man I want to be with. I know that I am a gift to whoever I’m with. I guess it just still hurts that this man didn’t want my gift.

    And i feel that it’s not fair to this new man who is pouring love into me every day. Honestly, he’s amazing. I swear he must read your material because he’s doing everything right!! It feels so good to receive!!! I just want to be free to fully receive without the ghosts from the past.

    Thanks so much!

  58.  #58tinque on December 2, 2009 at 9:14 am

    gina – Your confusion concerns me in that you seem to be leaning towards mistrust of all, including yourself, your intuition.
    Yes it’s true some men are really good at saying all the right things, the most beautiful rhetoric. I know, for I’ve been there. This is when you must really pay attention to the actions. Do the actions CONSISTENTLY back up the pretty verbiage? Does he walk the walk as well as he talks the talk?
    If you feel doubt, sink deeper within. Your heart knows the answers. Truly it does.

  59.  #59Rachel on December 2, 2009 at 9:46 am


    I know that you wrote that to Gina, but I needed to hear it too. My heart does know… I just don’t want to admit that what I felt wasn’t returned in the same way. It hurts so much.

    But I do want a man whose actions CONSISTENTLY back up his pretty verbiage. No matter what the situation… I’m tired of lame excuses!


  60.  #60Mary on December 2, 2009 at 9:57 am

    I’m in love with a former sex addict. When we met, he hadn’t acted out in three or four years, and he had had a spiritual renewal about a year before. We had a series of breakups, then an engagement, and then we broke our engagement a year and a half ago. The problem was that when we got physically close, he withdrew. I began to feel terrible about myself, as though I wasn’t attractive enough, and I began to hate myself.

    For a year and a half, I stayed at home, reading books, listening to CDs, filling out workbooks, starting a new career, cultivating friendships with women and being lively and fun all by myself. I watched him on Plenty of Fish (I could see when he would give out those roses,) and sometimes he put ads on Craigslist. I began to look for him there when I missed him.

    Then I began to date, and one day he saw me dancing with someone else. He asked me out, and we went. I was so happy to see him, and was feeling so good about myself, that I just let myself go and expressed myself to him. I told him that I knew my sexual energy was too much for him, but that I didn’t care. I wanted him to know how much I loved him and had missed him. We went out the next week, and he expressed himself to me, too. He was carefree and very sexual, too.

    Then he realized I was seeing other men. He thought that when we started kissing, the other men went away, but I was still going out with the dancing man. That killed him, made him furious and he started giving me ultimatums. To complicate things, a third man from my past showed up, and I went out with him.

    I really love this guy. He has had a toxic past, but he is trying to push past it. I’m hoping there is hope for us! But now, with the other men, he is withdrawing again, which is his pattern. He says he won’t express himself to me while I’m dating other people.

    I’m at a loss here. He wants to get married. He dropped out of calling me for a few days, so I watched Craigslist, and sure enough, there was an ad there. It was him, looking of his true love, and it was describing me, to the world! How he wanted to protect me, and care for me, and love me like no other, regardless of his past, that the pain he had experienced in missing me was a learning experience at best, and how I was the love of his life.

    That felt so amazing to read.

    I’d like to marry this man. For me, living together is just not a good solution. But I’d also like to get out there and date a little, too. I never allowed myself to do that, and I enjoyed myself with dancing man. I risk losing the love of my life if I do that, but possibly he still has those toxic ways… I just don’t know. I think there’s hope for everyone, don’t you? And he wants so much to have a normal, respectable life.

    Does anyone have any feelings about this? Do you think a toxic man can ever become non-toxic? Isn’t there such a thing as momentum, and the right moment-in-time to just take a risk and move when your heart says go? Or am I being the reciprocal of the toxic man to wish for the best?

    I’m a little confused. The circular dating has gotten me my man. And now I have a proposal. I’m wondering if I’m happy about it? I know that people are about as happy as they decide to be, so I could just decide to be happy! And I am ecstatic to see him, every time I do! His touch is the touch I want for the rest of my life. The question is just: can he do it? And how can I know if I don’t try?

  61.  #61Mercedes on December 2, 2009 at 10:02 am

    Lola: Thank you so much for your sweet compliment. I think of you as a friend too and will always be here for you.

    Much Love,

  62.  #62gina on December 2, 2009 at 10:14 am

    thank you Tinque. Below that doubt is RAGE and dread.

  63.  #63tinque on December 2, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Rachel – Yes it does hurt a lot, ad we can feel so foolish for “falling” for it seemingly every time. But that’s how we learn. We fall down scrape our knees, pick ourselves up again, clean up the booboos, but NO bad-aids. Fresh air and kisses. Yes. To ourselves.

    Mary – Sounds dicey to me. Tread carefully. Really, really LISTEN to yourself and your heart. You hesitate big time. Listen to this. I don’t like to give up on people, and I tend to give more chances and time than many, but if this has been going on for a long time then….You don’t say how long you were together before the break up or how long you’ve been back together.

  64.  #64Mary on December 2, 2009 at 10:27 am

    And just to add to that: when we were separated, and he was dating other women, he kept calling me. I told him I didn’t want to talk to him while he was dating others. He called anyway, so I wrote him an email that said, “I won’t be in touch, but remember that I love you and will pray for you.” Then I didn’t return any phone calls, emails or letters for about six months. In August, he put some money into my bank account, to pay me back for a transaction we had made before, and I broke silence to say thank you. He called then, and my cell phone accidentally answered, so I talked with him. He wanted to see me, so we went out. I told him I was working on myself, and I wanted some real boundaries. I didn’t want him to call me, email me or put any more money into my bank account until December. And he abided by that.

    I think there might be hope for us.

  65.  #65Mary on December 2, 2009 at 10:28 am

    Wow, my former story didn’t make it! So just cancel that last entry…

  66.  #66Mary on December 2, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Oh, I see that it did make it, after all! And thank you for the advice, Tinque! We were together for a little over a year and a half and were engaged for about four months. So about two years.

    He just has a lot of fear of being close. And now he says he’s dealing with those fears. He also says that for most of his life he has had a “fantasy girl” in mind, and that now he is letting her go. He kept thinking he would find her. I asked him about her, but he was reluctant to tell me what she looked like, and now I think it’s probably better that I don’t know. Otherwise, I’d see her everywhere. I asked him what kind of faults she had, and he said, “Faults?” “Oh, none, of course!” And we both laughed. Maybe he can get past fantasy girl.

    That’s a lot of hoping, isn’t it? Am I crazy, or what?

  67.  #67cheryl on December 2, 2009 at 10:35 am

    im in a relationship and i need help fixing it with my boyfriend jason i love him awhole lot. but my sister and her boyfriend are just destroying us and i want too fix it big time with my fiancee jason help me please

  68.  #68Dorothea on December 2, 2009 at 10:36 am

    Thank you for your reply, Rori.

    I hope you and the other Sirens can brainstorm with me about how to “turn it around” so that men who want me light my fire instead of my feeling more attracted to unavailable men. I want to come up with a neat tool of some sort.

    It’s like…the only time i do feel really very attracted to a man who wants me is when they are from the internet and a few states away. I think I might be scared of intimacy.

    but what if the men who live near me and treat me well and pursue me really do just annoy the fucking shit out of me? Grrr I feel irritated. They want me so bad I want to hurt them. I want to rip their heads off and feast on their entrails and laugh maniacally and shrug apathetically when it’s all over.

  69.  #69Nikita on December 2, 2009 at 10:38 am


    thx for being a good sport after reading my opinions 😉

    My ex was crazy about sales and we’d hunt together….but sometimes I felt a vibe about things…..he would know about the prices of some of my shoes….like “retail value”-200-300$….but I paid….(way less than half) guess, guess, ?..he would guess and applaud me……but then there was this thing in the air….if you can be happy with “your life on sale” why pay full price for anything….I’m having some trouble explaining it but…….he started expecting it and it didn’t feel good…….and I felt reminded why keeping some mystery about the “worth” was prudent. It’s also an etiquette thing that I probably got from my mom-who REALLY loves sales…..so I’m back to my mystery……I want to be perceived as “priceless” 😉

    Please feel welcome to chime in on anything I write in the future…..maybe we both felt triggered on this subject…different strokes for different folks…I feel really touched by your cross-referencing with TN…..we learned some stuff about him 😉


  70.  #70Nikita on December 2, 2009 at 10:49 am

    My mother always said….”It’s all in the presentation”.

    and then she’d do something totally comical that wasn’t presented well to illustrate her point—like slapping down food onto a plate as if she was the apathetic/bitter-lunch lady in the cafeteria 😉
    we’d have a good laugh but it stuck with me…..so now I present meals in the most gentle elegant manner…..but I hear her in my head when I’m putting on make-up….(she only wears lipstick tho) …..and dressing for dates……and I hear it when I’m trying to form feeling messages to…..How am I presenting my desires? or feelings?……am I demanding? controlling? inviting? sharing?……I love that…..”It’s all in the presentation”.


  71.  #71tinque on December 2, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Mary – No you’re not crazy, not at all. Your feelings are perfectly normal.
    Fears are not normal, but very, very common. You see we are not born with fear. It’s a learned behavior. Anyone can get over their fears if they really want to. It’s not easy, but it is doable. Do you believe with all you have that he really wants to? It sounds to me that he does. But only he knows for sure.
    As for fantasy girl. Don’t we all have one of those at some time or another, fantasy girl or boy? The thing is is that real women and men are far more interesting and engaging. Would you want Mr. Perfect? How boring would that be. How inadequate might that make you feel? Mr. Perfect for YOU is what you would really want. Can he come to this piece of wisdom? Can he cherish you imperfections and all? Will your flaws endear you to him even more?
    I would suggest giving this some more time. I think you said you haven’t been back together that long. See what he does this time. Like I said anyone can change if they desire it. If it’s a repeat of before, well you’ll know won’t you.
    Be cautious. Be kind, gentle with your heart. He has to woo you this time. He has to show you he can do this.

  72.  #72Paula on December 2, 2009 at 11:15 am

    I feel down. I’ve been stuck at home for 12 days because of floods. I feel crazy.

    I hope I recognise a good man next time as my last few relationships have been toxic. I overfunctioned and leaned forward and those guys treated me with a complete lack of respect. I thought they ‘needed’ me. My belief is that to be loved, I must be needed. I don’t feel too hopeful of changing that pattern.

    The only decent man around at the moment is Mr Long Distance. I feel a little apprehensive. He signs his emails and SMS with his and his daughters name. She is 6 and lives with him. I don’t ask questions about his daughter or his ex. I don’t feel like it! It feels good to get romantic emails. But it’s only a fantasy until I meet him. He’s cute though 🙂

  73.  #73Mary on December 2, 2009 at 11:15 am

    Wow, Tinque. Thank you so much. You really understand, and that’s so nice for me. The other guy I’m dating is cute and fun, but I really love this guy. I do think he’s ready to make a commitment now, and I think he’ll keep it once he’s made it.

    On another note, the guy I should have married, way back when, came back into my life because he’s getting a divorce. It’s going to be a long time until he’s really available, and not fair to my guy to keep him waiting that long – I mean, it’s been a really long haul for us – but I’m not sure that the long lost love wouldn’t make a good match, though when I was walking beside him, listening to his troubles, I felt that I wanted to be with my former fiancee instead. But maybe that’s just familiarity?

    I’ve put myself into a place where I have choices, and now I see that making decisions is so hard for me! It feels empowering to be able to choose, but I’ve never had power before. And I’ve always let others choose for me. This is such a growing experience. I think I’m going to start loving being the chooser!

    Tinque, I’m touched that you responded to my situation. Thank you again, so much. I think your words have wisdom, and I think I’ll just proceed along a conservative pathway here, and take it slowly. Surely something will happen that will help me to “just know.”

    Okay, enough about me.

  74.  #74tinque on December 2, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Mary – More thoughts. I have never felt that going back is a good idea. It seems to me you have built a bit of a fantasy around Mr. Once Was. You shouldn’t have married him because you didn’t. There were reasons you didn’t whether you want to call it intuition or the universe protecting you.
    Having the strength to choose is wonderful. I applaud you for recognizing this.
    I too have been chosen in the past and went along with because I thought no one could possibly love me again. Well truth be told the ones who chose me didn’t really love me. They were too troubled to love themselves, so how could they love me. But then again I didn’t love me either. You see the pattern?
    This time around it was a mutual choosing. I don’t know if you’ve read my story as you’ve perused this blog and/or my own, but I now have a AMAZING relationship that keeps getting better and deeper all the time. So Mr. Perfect for YOU is possible. Whether it’s this man you’re with or someone else. If you can imagine it with everything you have, you will create it.

  75.  #75Mary on December 2, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Wow, that gives me so much hope! Thank you so much for that! Something about this guy just reels me in, and I’ve been powerless with him before. Now that I’m out with other guys, I have my power back, and he wants me. I really wonder if he’ll want me once he has me all to himself. Something in me doubts it, but I’m ready to just get on his horse and ride away with him! Sometimes I’m just so ready to just do it!

    Maybe I’ll just go out dating for a while. Do you really think he’ll stay around if I do that? I can’t even imagine it, and I’m so worried about losing him.

    Where can I find your story in the archives? I’d really love to read it.

  76.  #76tinque on December 2, 2009 at 1:02 pm


    Mary – Here are a couple of guest posts from me and a letter I wrote made into a post. Or just go to my site by clicking on my name. It’s all there. I take you through a condensed version if you follow chronologically through the earlier posts.

    By the way there’s a big difference between dating as in having friendly encounters where you can practice tools and “dating” where you make out or sleep with every man you go out with.
    You must let go of worry. It’s a useless thing our little brains do to us to mess with us. Things will go as they do. No amount of worrying is going to change that. If anything it will create anxiety within you, and this CAN be felt by others whether they know it or not.

  77.  #77Linda on December 2, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    I really appreciate this post. I would say love it but that seemed funny to me in light of what the topic was. I have been spending some time thinking about what I define as love. What it feels like.

    I really appreciate what Aldonza said. I know that what whe said was totally true. Reading it feels balanced and right. It made me excited to think about having a relationship like that with someone.

    I so enjoy the nuggets of wisdom I get out of here from everyone.

    I like the word picture of being a Godess in my castle. I wonder too who is going to come to my window next. I feel melancholy today. I could curl up and feel really sorry for myself because it just seems that nothing (in my love life) is happening. I miss the pressences of a man in my life. I found someone that I loved his vibe but he went awal on me. I just dont get it. I seem to fit the profile of all the things I read that a man wants, strong, independant, has her life, good head on her shoulders, etc etc… yet my phone is quiet and my dance card empty. Maybe something wonderful is lining up and is just about to break forth. I feel optomistic about tomorrow but very melancholy today. I fight doing something and being in my masculine energy. I still want to go find Mr Scrutiny and dare him to not smile at me. I fantasize sometimes about him really doing all the things that he said he was going to but didnt’… He cant even offer energy to be a friend to me, even though he asked me if I was still his friend…. sigh

    Oh my… I am just waiting for the man that Aldonza described. I am ready to use all my tools and be all girly and melty and all the other stuff I have been practicing.

    Why do men come back and stand under my window from time to time. Why do they not stay away for long but not ever come in and claim the me? I feel curious about that and…. melancholy.

    Hugs Linda

  78.  #78Rachel on December 2, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Hey… Rori suggested that I read posts on “riffing.” I can’t find them. Does anybody know what she’s talking about or can anyone send me a link to those posts?


  79.  #79alias girl on December 2, 2009 at 3:19 pm


    Stop Solving Problems And Get More Love
    Thursday, 25 September 2008 @ 1:19pm


    you can start here and then work your way chronologically as the dates move forward in time.

    reading the comments is helpful because you get to see what the other sirens were doing and rori was tweaking their process.

    this riffing is what you’ll see some of us do on the blog when we state our feelings and love our feelings and then the feeings morph.

    this was one of rori’s most powerful series (for me.)


  80.  #80tinque on December 2, 2009 at 6:21 pm




    Mary – Here are a couple of guest posts from me and a letter I wrote made into a post. Or just go to my site by clicking on my name. It’s all there. I take you through a condensed version if you follow chronologically through the earlier posts.

    By the way there’s a big difference between dating as in having friendly encounters where you can practice tools and “dating” where you make out or sleep with every man you go out with.
    You must let go of worry. It’s a useless thing our little brains do to us to mess with us. Things will go as they do. No amount of worrying is going to change that. If anything it will create anxiety within you, and this CAN be felt by others whether they know it or not.

  81.  #81Daria on December 2, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    Dorothea LOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!

    LOOOL!!! that was awesome. I can totally see you doing that! so cool

  82.  #82Rori Raye on December 2, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    Cheryl – welcome, and we need to hear more about what’s happening…Love, Rori

  83.  #83Rori Raye on December 2, 2009 at 11:34 pm

    Rachel – go to the ‘Directory of posts” over on the right sidebar, then look for Power and Self Esteem – start at the bottom post and work your way up – it’ll put it together for you… Love, Rori

  84.  #84Tracy on December 3, 2009 at 3:12 am

    Just subscribing to this post…..love everyone comments…

  85.  #85Linda on December 3, 2009 at 6:10 am

    A Toxic man is unhealthy. I am able to see things about them, that I did not pick up on before. The healthier I get the more contrast there is. The more I pay close attention to my feeling and intuition the smarter and more guided I am.

    Alias girl… your posted list concerning what your happiness/success/ relationship…. is dependant upon is so awesome. Again, you write what is in my heart and mind floating in my soup. When I read your words and list, I come up for air and it is clear. The fog is gone once again. Healing and lovinging myself comes in layers.

    I got a response from Mr Scrutiny last night. It really upset me, and it bothered me that I let it matter. He is no different. His heart judgemental unopen to hearing me. I loaded my email with feeling messages, told him how I felt about his treatement of me, feeling disrespected, scrutinized, ignored, everything! He barely acknowledged my feelings. Instead he boldly refuted them and further insulted me by coming at me with ” a religious spirit”…. telling me that I had no justification to divorce and therefore he could not have nor should he want me because I am another mans wife!…. OH I was INFURIATED!

    After I sunk in my soup… I saw a very vivid message. His words are an enditement that he holds against himself about his own life. All the things he holds as reasons that he cant be happy with me, or finds fault with or a deal breaker…. in me are simply the ways he can not love himself or forgive himself. I was married to one man for 29 years… he has been married and divorced 3 times…This man wearies me. He is toxic… Drains me. He does not feel good. Has a hard unhearing heart….. Shooo shallow unhappy sad man. go work on loving yourself, offering grace to imperfection and leave my castle window.

    Your list Alias girl, and this post is so timely. I am going to have a grand day. I am at peace with myself, God and my world. Nothing gets in there and drives a wedge between me and this place.


  86.  #86"Terry" on December 3, 2009 at 10:33 am

    Does being married make him a toxic man? Or just unavailable?

    Although I was clearly the masculine energy partner, he was doing some of the pursuing, bringing small gifts, calling me, etc. but said that he couldn’t really pursue me until he found a way to leave his abusive wife and protect his kids from her, that he didn’t want the kids to think he’d betrayed them. Around mid-August, my insecurities started acting up. I got very clingy – that’s what he hates most about his wife, other than the domestic violence. I worked on it. We were ok until after his baby was born end of Sept. He said it didn’t change the way he felt, but he wanted to “behave himself better.” He pulled back a little, but I freaked out and pressured him to spend time with me, etc. and it never seemed to be enough. Oct. 20th I got overly emotional, started to cry, asked him to tell me one too many times that he loved me. He responded, “How many times do I have to tell you?” Since then, we’ve only had one date, three weeks ago. He has not initiated contact, other than one phone call. We are supposed to meet later today, but he’s hedging.

    I can’t get past the fact that I believe he’s my soulmate, we went from him making plans to leave her and marry me to me completely killing it to this weird “non-relationship.”
    How do I handle the guilt and anger, and how can I even use feeling messages to communicate with him if he won’t even give me face time?

  87.  #87Rori Raye on December 3, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    Terry – Hi, and thank you for recognizing yourself in this post. I’ll jump off into another….Rori

  88.  #88Terry on December 3, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Aha moment: After the last post, I went outside and did the tool about accepting yourself and loving yourself just the way you are and realized it’s OK even if I DID ruin “The One and Only.” Because if he really loved and accepted me just as I am, one emotional meltdown wouldn’t have made him back away like he did. And now I know a better way to get in touch with my feelings and express them. It’s OK that I didn’t know that before, and now I do.

    I am still processing that the relationship’s dead, and it still hurts, but I can use the empty space to practice accepting myself. It’s a small step.
    What else can I do with the empty space?

  89.  #89jessie on December 3, 2009 at 8:24 pm

    I really feel stuff when i am in a relationship but I know it is not love…I really connected with this message about mislabeling things as love…I remember being a teenager and my mom saying to me that she loved me more than anything and viewing how she had done that …flashbacks of my childhood of neglect, abuse from my dad, silence, hierarchal submission to her rules, then i thought…wow I guess no one loves me….and then every relationship that I had after that was so much better than my childhood…i thought it was Love!

    I felt close to someone. Love! He cooked a meal for me. Love! He wanted to see me get dressed up and walk around with me. Love! He never ever wanted to see me leave him. Love! He wanted me to stay home and be with him all day. Love! He hit me because he loved me so much…so much that I made him crazy. Love????
    No. But what kind of standards did i grow up with? None. My boundaries were walked all over. I need love and I want it, but I am sure that I am constantly mistaking it for something else…I think it is gratefulness, or even pity.

    Thank u Rori, I feel like you have become a better mother to me than my own…thank u for the wonderful advice.

  90.  #90Simply Shannon on December 3, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    Jessie: Big, big hugs for the little girl in you who was not protected. (((HUGS))) My heart felt achy as I was reading your post. But I also felt uplifted hearing how you are redefining what you learned to be love as a child into what love can really be. Just the knowledge is so powerful, isn’t it?

  91.  #91Simply Shannon on December 3, 2009 at 9:04 pm

    Linda: “I am at peace with myself, God and my world. Nothing gets in there and drives a wedge between me and this place.” I’m going to write this on a piece of paper and have it be my affirmation every single day.

    I slipped up and texted “A” Tuesday night (blame it on the ah-ah-ah-alcohol). I know he is toxic for me, but I still did it. He texted me back and I felt… relieved. I think a part of me just needed to know he would. That I could (if I choose to pursue him – yuck) have this man back. A part of me needed to know it like I needed an old security blanket. But the more I flip this around in my head, this is the toxic poison that is still INSIDE OF ME. He may be toxic (and he is) but *I* am also toxic to want a man who doesn’t really want me. I felt so stupid when I woke up Wednesday morning. Blech.

    And here I was… on my high horse just a few days ago… itching to go off at how ridiculous we all seem pursuing these men who don’t really love us. Then the universe laughed and shoved a mirror up in my face… here you go Shannon… and off I went doing it to MYSELF again, inviting A back into my world. ME. I invited this toxic man back into my life. WTF?

    We each have our own version of the toxic story described above. I may not want to believe I would have it as bad as the original poster, but toxic is toxic. No matter what variation we each have of the “toxic” story, we all have one. I know I do.

    I love my strength. I also love my weakness. I did something I said I would not do, AND I forgive myself for it. I have a lot to learn and a lot of things to heal inside of me. A long way to go before I stop inviting toxic into my life. Two steps forward, one step back.

    I love all the mucked up parts of me as much as I love the parts that seem strong. I fell off the wagon for a moment, but I’m back on my horse again. If I fall again (and I know I will), all I gotta do is get back up. I feel okay with that for now.

  92.  #92Rachel on December 3, 2009 at 9:13 pm


    I just did this too. Reached out again to a man who has hurt me so deeply. I break free for a few days and it feels great. And then i miss him (why?!) and invite him back in. I felt better reading your post. You are right. We can just get up and keep going. And each time we will ride a little further away from the toxicity and a little closer to health! Thanks for sharing this

  93.  #93Simply Shannon on December 3, 2009 at 10:13 pm

    You’re welcome Rachel. What you said is so true… each time we ride a little further away from the toxicity and closer to health. The old me from a few months ago would have kept on texting him all day but the new me got back on her damn horse and stopped. And he stopped too. Which shows me again that it was ME inviting the madness. He would just stay away, never contacting me, never caring if I was doing okay. Why the hell would I invite “his nothingness” into my life? For a few lines on a text… occassionally? Ummm no. Oh wait. NO HELL NO.

    I definitely feel some sadness and anger at myself that I’m having to work through but this time I can SEE the toxicity. I won’t pretend anymore that I’m okay with taking crumbs. That is no longer how I define love.

    But I am treating myself with kindness. So I eff’d up. Oh well. Moving right along…

  94.  #94Rori Raye on December 3, 2009 at 10:50 pm

    Terry – welcome again…and you’re going to see a whole series of posts in reply to your amazing and triggering comments – so be prepared to read a lot! Oh – and you didn’t ruin anything. The situation is impossibly treacherous and bad-feeling for you. That’s my take. Love, Rori

  95.  #95Rori Raye on December 3, 2009 at 10:51 pm

    Shannon – you sound GREAT! I feel some serious clarity coming through here…oh – no beating up self allowed – useless and likely not even TRUE! Love, Rori

  96.  #96jessica on December 4, 2009 at 12:23 am

    Well, first thing Rori, is I am glad I have found you.
    You have caused me to focus…on ME, oh yes I still have a long way to go, I must say, I am SURE that your theories will help. I moved in with him because we both needed help with our teenage daughters. He kept me at bay, I allowed myself to be completely controlled, I fell for him, all my life never loved soooo much, lost myself, always put his needs first. He sent mixed messages….Then we faced a near death experience together..he said when he got close to losing me he realized he does not want to lose me, and we became lovers. I have never felt so close to heaven…but was leary, deep down knew it would not last. One day said he needed a change, I have to move out, and I was “to old” Started calling and talking about others, and even brought a woman home. 18 months had past. I have never been so caring, compassionate, slo to anger, understanding, passionate, giving, patient, kind. He said I would make some man very lucky, a good wife someday and proceeded to ask an old girlfriend to marry him. He said he loves me but isnt “in love” with me. As I was leaving he said he is keeping the “one thing” he ever bought for me (an antique armoir) I have been gone four months. He calls and says he loves me, how are the kids, blah, blah. I still jump when he needs something (well, until I met you) I can not stop thimking about him, crying for him, and I know like you said, Rori, if he doesnt want to be with me he means nothing, but for some reason I can not let go damnit! I would follow him to the ends of the earth, we are so good together. I feel that when he sensed he was getting close (he has never had a woman last more than a few months) he got scared and built an impenatrable wall. I would do ANYTHING to be with him, I am so unhappy. I sincerely love this man Rori, I wake up thinking about him everyday. When I see him, I am the happy-go-lucky but dying inside.

  97.  #97Simply Shannon on December 4, 2009 at 6:14 am

    Rori: Thank you!! I felt bad for texting A and wanted to beat myself up because he didn’t really respond or take my invitation and run with it. But then I realized I don’t really want A back, it’s this security blanket thing. If I had him back, I would still feel crappy (for different reasons, but still crappy). Very interesting to me the feelings that are coming up. Mostly fear that I won’t feel about anyone like I felt about the original him (not the one he turned into later) but I know that’s not fair or even true. I felt the same fear BEFORE I met him. Still working through it but at the very least, I don’t feel stuck harping on him alone.

    You rock, plain and simple. I cannot begin to thank you enough for just being you and sharing it with all of us. I literally feel amazed. Thank you.

  98.  #98dawn on December 4, 2009 at 8:26 am

    I find it helpful to know there are other woman out ther e who deal with the same thing. Yes Ive felt toxic too at times. The hardest part is getting over that feeling. The feeling that i am the one doing this to myself. What kind of sick bitch am i? Then I remember that i had a little help. The little toxic man wont get the chance again. And i feel stronger ! And i know that i will be ok. Tomorrow really is another day. Gives us one more chance to get it right. So no point beatin a dead horse!

  99.  #99tinque on December 4, 2009 at 9:14 am

    SS – you didn’t mess up or even fall backwards. you were testing yourself, and you know what? you passed your own test brilliantly. kudos to you goddess lady…

  100.  #100ABC on December 4, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    hey Shannon,

    it’s very interesting to read your story because i think i have experienced what you are going through–or most of us anyway.

    the word security blanket jumps off the most. i also have this from time to time, when i am with someone who is/will never be interested in me, i just couldn’t help but feel fearful and anxious, it’s like this thing in me says “what can i do to make him want me?!”

    last night i went to a meeting where a guy i used to like but who never liked me back was also there, i hesitated a bit before i decided that i wanted to go. i wanted to see how i respond in situations like that. so i went. it wasn’t as bad as i thought. i saw him clearly for the first time, that he’s a very insecure guy who needs validation from also having girls around him. it kind of turned me off. yet i still felt very anxious around him. i guessed it’s my body’s natural response to warn me the danger of this guy. i’ve avoided him for weeks, it helped a lot when you are all hang up on someone and couldn’t see your own truth.

    but then i came home, something struck me. is it really that i didn’t want to get hurt from this guy, or it’s just my own fear i made up in my head. i mean, when i put all my attention on one guy, i automatically feel anxious and scared, it doesn’t even matter if he’s good to me or not. i start to understand what rori means fear of intimacy.

    i fear of letting someone get close, so i choose men that are distant and cold, so that i could “prove myself right” it sound crazy but i believe it’s true. and when i’m with someone nice and wants me, i start to find “fault” in him so that i could push him away to “prove myself right” AGAIN.

    so maybe we can work on ourselves together:)


  101.  #101ABC on December 4, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    oh one more thing, getting hung up on someone is like addicted to any drugs or cigarette, when you don’t use them at first, you become very anxious and the desire to use it overpowers you and shadows your truth, if you give in to it, it wins.

    things that give you pleasure in the short run to cover up you pain is never good for you in the long run. however, not have the pleasure right away (for instance have that toxic guy back or that one more cigarette) might feel really bad right now, but it means you good in the long run. so your pick.


  102.  #102Rachel on December 4, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    SS.. it’s so cool that you mentioned not wanting crumbs anymore. Because that’s exactly the analogy I came up with . I have lived a whole year getting excited over each little crumb. Waiting and hoping for the next one. Still empty and sad after each one. You know what? I don’t want to live on crumbs. I want a whole BANQUET table!!!! I am worth it!!!

    I loved your line about inviting his “nothingness” into your life. The last phone call I had with my guy was on Tuesday… and as I listened to him, I heard the flatness in his voice and it was really unattractive. And I realized that all he was worried about was himself, his life, his job. For some reason, I still think about him and “long” for him… but now I’m not really sure what it is I’m longing for. I think I’m longing for who he used to be or who I thought he was. Who he is now isn’t doing it for me! So I’m back on my horse and riding today. And so proud of all of us that are learning to ride together. Cheers!!

  103.  #103Simply Shannon on December 4, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Rachel: With A, I’ve finally realized it’s not really him. It’s the IDEA of him, this masculine, good looking man, who takes care of his family, who has a good job and works hard at it, who likes to do the fun things that I do, who is different enough from me that I can learn new things from him, a man I can respect, a man I can admire. A was all of those things at one point but he isn’t now and will never be again. As much as I want to put that egg back together, he will never be Humpty Dumpty again, ya know? 🙂

    ABC: “Prove me right”… I should have that tattoo’d on me somewhere. It is such a struggle to not look for the bad, not to assume that the worst will happen, to constantly be waiting for that one thing so you can say “yep, I knew you were an a$$hole”. Oh yes, I know that one well. But as I am kinder to myself, I see men with a gentler eye. We all screw up royally. Hell, texting A was a huge screw up. but I forgive myself, sometimes I’m weak. but not everything is a deal breaker. I’m trying to expect the best and trust God to give it to me.

  104.  #104Rori Raye on December 4, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Jessica – you do not love him. I know I’m going against what you believe – but you cannot love him in the way you think you love him. You are using him to punish yourself. This is the perfect PAIN. You work and work and work to be “right” for the person you want and need to love you, and it’s never enough. This is your wonderful opportunity to stop this terrible cycle. It’s actually, in my opinion, something we all have a bit of, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. PTSD. For us, it shows up in loving a man to the destruction of ourselves – and a man who couldn’t care less. You need to peel this back, once you see that this is a trauma response and not love – it just FEELS that way – it feels intense and your hormones are all involved. CODA would help you tremendously, as would some quick therapies, like hypnotherapy – that’s Virginia Feingold Clark at http://www.yourinnerguide.com, Somatic Experiencing – that’s Sharon Porter or Emily Van Horn, EFT – that’s Erika.awakening – meditation and a bunch of reading and PRACTICING my Tools. You are in the right place to FIX this! You can do it…Love, Rori

  105.  #105Vicki Kerns on December 4, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Wow, this is a very powerful message. I was a very quiet and shy little girl, lived in a neighborhood with no kids growing up (had a brother 8 eight years older), so I had no socialization skills when I started school and boy do kids pick up on someone who’s “different.” My dad was the quiet one and my mom suffered from anxiety and depression and would have benefitted greatly from anti-depressants if they’d been available some 50 years ago. My family wasn’t very demonstrative with love, and with mom’s anxiety, there were lots of fights with dad, walking around on eggshells, me going through the house slamming doors (to take the attention off my dad), getting into it with mom, then crying later and asking her forgiveness. I know it wasn’t their fault (God rest their souls, I don’t them, and I love them with all my heart, and I miss them terribly, especially my mom). It’s just the way it was.

    Then I was picked on all through school so grew up with no self-esteem or confidence. Only had 1 date all through high school (and he turned gay later). Then out on my own for the first time, a handsome Turkish man came into the restaurant I worked at and started flirting with me. Oh my, I was mesmerized. He talked me into getting my first apartment, then came up one evening and took my virginity by date rape (which I didn’t really realized what to call it for years, I blamed myself!). So yeah, I have no really good experiences to fall back on.

    I wandered around from man to man all my young life, into my 30s, 40s, and now 50s, and still clueless what real love is. Yeah, I had a couple of nice relationships in the past, but they didn’t lead anywhere.

    This is so right on the spot. Triggered! So what I have felt for this man for several years may very well not be love at all; probably isn’t. But I’ve clung to it like a life raft, taking what little crumbs he’d throw me. Yeah, he was a lot of fun as a friend, and we had some great times together, but he’s sooooooo “unrelationshipable” (if that’s a word). Just hearing about his ex-wife screwing around on him and all the women he’s dated in the last 11 years. And he admitted himself that he’s afraid of relationships and doesn’t know how to pick women. Duh!

    I’ve been skirting around this issue for years, but it’s very eye-opening to see it in print and know that so many of us do it. Wow! Yes, I’m addicted to the pain, the drama (maybe that’s why I do community theatre), and I think that’s love. How I’d love to see him again someday and be able to say, “You know, this was the best thing that ever happened to me. I’ve really gotten to know and love myself like never before, and the biggest realization is that I was never really in love with you.” Hoo-wow!

    I’ve got to do a lot more digging, really go to the bottom of the soup and swim around. I’ve still got lots of work to do, but I’m finally on the right path.

  106.  #106tinque on December 4, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    Wow Vicki. YAY for you. That’s a big thing to realize about yourself.

  107.  #107alias girl on December 4, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    vicki i feel supportive and compassionate. that couldn’t have been an easy ride. i feel good you feel you are on a good path. thank you for sharing.

  108.  #108Flipper on December 4, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    Hugs, Jessica, from me, and please hug yourself tight, too – Some of this stuff must feel pretty hard to swallow, and you deserve comforting and understanding. Especially from yourself.

    One of the most important truths I have learned here, is that to truly love and be loved, I can’t be perfect and shouldn’t even try. No more Doing Everything, and worse doing it right for someone else! No more “happy-go-lucky but dying inside,” as you put it. I have to accept my anger and Show it. I have to feel my sadness and show it. I can make mistakes and still love myself, and I remain lovable to others. I have to make it known when something is unacceptable to me, and if nothing is done to right it, and apologize, I have to be willing to walk away. It’s only when I can feel okay with showing and sharing all these negative aspects of myself, that a man will feel emotionally attracted to me And that he can feel safe with me. Safe to feel his own ‘bad’ feelings without fear of being judged for them. And so that he won’t be tempted to ‘act them out’ to my detriment. A good man, that is. A toxic man will continue to make me feel bad about myself through his bad behavior, negligence, and cannot evolve into his own best self or a caring, equal partner for me.

  109.  #109Paula on December 5, 2009 at 2:18 am

    Jessica and Vicki – thanks for sharing. I feel glad you are here. And Rachel – thanks for your words on crumbs.

    I wish healing and happiness for all of us and an end to pain too.

    Rori, I feel really interested in learning more about this.

    “For us, it shows up in loving a man to the destruction of ourselves – and a man who couldn’t care less”

    I feel despair that I will ever change that pattern.

  110.  #110Tara on December 5, 2009 at 10:29 am

    Shannon and Rachel:
    You two are my angels. Really. We have all recently gone through the exact same thing: being addicted to toxic men, breaking free for a few days and feeling great, then being overwhelmed by feelings for him and jumping right back in. Did the same this week!
    Loved the comments about “crumbs” and security blankets.
    I know why I’m crazy about Steve. I don’t think I’m mistaking love for pain or something else.
    The amazing intellectual compatibility is HUGE for me. I love esoteric, philosophical brainy guy who writes and does theater (that’s how we met) and also accepts my alternative spiritual path. The common interests and passions are huge. I find I can’t fall in love with a guy unless those ingredients are present.
    (He’s also devastatingly handsome and the chemistry WAS off-the-charts).
    But this week, he set up a date, rescheduled it, and then broke it 20 minutes beforehand because he “got hung up in a meeting and hadn’t started equipment testing yet.” AGAIN. This is a pattern. It happens a LOT. He has an important job at a major hospital, so work interferes, but we haven’t seen each other for almost a month. I can’t even get face time to speak my truth to him.
    Yesterday I saw a man coming out of the grocery store with a big bouquet of roses and a grin. I thought about all the things Steve has NEVER done for me (he says because he’s still married to Jane, his abuser):
    – no flowers
    – no dinners, even though he’s an awesome cook
    – no movie dates
    – no love letters, cards, or poetry
    – no random romantic texts (for the last 2 1/2 months)
    – can only see him during the work day or @ the theater, always at his convenience, not mine, because his life is “so crazy”
    Sounds like crumbs.
    But there ARE married men who DO leave and marry their girlfriends. I know four such couples, and all are still happily married. What’s up with that?

  111.  #111Melanie on December 5, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Tara wrote:
    “I know why I’m crazy about Steve. I don’t think I’m mistaking love for pain or something else.
    The amazing intellectual compatibility is HUGE for me. I love esoteric, philosophical brainy guy who writes and does theater (that’s how we met) and also accepts my alternative spiritual path. The common interests and passions are huge. I find I can’t fall in love with a guy unless those ingredients are present.
    (He’s also devastatingly handsome and the chemistry WAS off-the-charts).”

    That is exactly how I feel about TN guy, and why the others don’t move me. Guys like that are rare, so finding one makes me really really want to keep him!

  112.  #112Jessie on December 5, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    One thing that I do know about myself–from trying the advice from Rori…I absolutely dont know how to speak up for myself. I often try to attempt to complain but I really don’t know how to ask and often feel uncomfortable ??? when I get what I asked for.
    I had a fight with my roommate about not wanting to always do his dishes–for almost a year I would clean up every single day for him and while He loved me, I wanted to kill him. I would often hint that he should clean up and once he told me…I like to give you something to do during the day to lose weight (I almost killed him) then I wanted to just kick him out….but why? Why was I so scared to speak up? I think I felt afraid to change myself and be viewed in new ways…So finally I put up a sign and
    It said “Dont come in this kitchen unless you plan to leave it Exactly the way you found it.”

    Thats it. Well he complained and he whined, and so did the other guys and finally he bought a mop and actually cleaned up after himself. He looked very sad but now we actually get along great and I feel happier with myself. (I am trying to follow RORI in little steps before I tackle my boyfriend)….
    Anyway, I really think that I am terrible at even communicating what I want and so used to being a Victim that I actually feel uncomfortable changing from my predictable DOORMAT self.

    But this month my b.friend always tells me (endlessly) that he wants to take me away and Never does…he takes himself and goes on 3 month vacations–Spain this summer and I never go anywhere although he is super nice to me and doesnt hit me –like previous terrible husbands I have had….and so I told him this Xmas…when you go to visit your home then me and my girl friend are going to VEGAS.

    He told me he would dump me…but I said OK–if that is what you want to do and stuck to it. So we arent speaking now although he lives with me but I am trying to be strong and not cry…

    Hope you girls have good advice for me –because I feel very lonely and sad that when I actually tested him and asked for respect then he showed me that he was a DORK.

  113.  #113Flipper on December 5, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    It’s okay to cry, Jessie – in fact, crying makes you stronger, when you allow yourself to just sink down and feel the sadness and pain that bring the tears. Just plop down where you are, or go into another room if you’d feel less uncomfortable that way. Give yourself some hugs and talk to yourself the way your little girl inside wanted to hear it. If it happens in his presence, fine – that’s not “drama”, just normal consequences of feeling down. Don’t apologize, and if he asks or makes comforting gestures, share your feelings in words as simply as possible. Sending hugs from Siren Island.

  114.  #114Flipper on December 5, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    PS Jessie – I don’t know how to speak up for myself very well either, but I’m practicing and not beating myself up or giving up when it seems to come out ‘wrong’ or too late. When I do even approach getting something out, I feel better and know my baby step is leaving a tiny footprint to help guide me next time.

  115.  #115Tara on December 5, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    Just a quick thank you to Mercedes, Nikita, Tinque, and all the other goddesses who frequent these pages and who have sent love and light my way. Especially Rori.
    Love you all, and am thankful for you!

  116.  #116jessica on December 6, 2009 at 6:42 am

    It feels comforting to know I am not alone. The part about crumbs, oh yes, I can relate to that one. The worst part is that my daughter mentioned to me how weak I am, and that REALLY hurts, I want to set a positive example. All the new insights I get from you girls and Rori are amazing and I am happy that we are here “together” Have a beautiful day each and every one of U…

  117.  #117jessica on December 6, 2009 at 7:06 am

    Rori, should I pretend I dont care that he is going to see his so-called “girlfriend” for a week this X-mas and continue to be his friend, or tell him that I am extremely hurt by this ? I personally feel I should lay it on the table, no matter what the outcome, things are looking truly bleak for me ever being with him anyway. What do u think? Thanks. P.S. since I came to “him” and am in a place where I have nobody else if the kids need something, I feel scared to let go and then I will be “truly” alone. Oh, the only reason I have nobody else, is because I spent every waking moment trying to please him and developed no other support system, so I realize this is my fault.

  118.  #118jessie on December 6, 2009 at 8:00 am

    To Jessica, I so know that feeling, I am a single mom with 2 kids –12 and 2. I push all my good friends away when my men start being jerks –My bff was rude to my man because he told her that I wasnt going to Vegas with her on F.Book. We had posted that we were going so she commented back and told him that he was a monkey and should kiss her ***. Now, I am not “allowed” to talk to her and she cant come from Ont. to visit our house this Xmas. I know if I push for her, he will leave and For SOME strange reason, I am so afraid to be alone….My kids absolutely Love him…it is so complicated. I want to talk to him and convince him WITHOUT losing him or I guess Change him and make him see my feelings but it is such a losing battle.

    I started running with a Running Club and made some new friends and this week I ran (after 3 months of intervals) a 5k marathon in 31 minutes…I was really proud and I feel my anxiety lowering from the exercise. I am going to try to talk to him again when I am done my run this morning when I am calm and hopefully I can really stand up for myself without telling him to Get OUt.

  119.  #119tinque on December 6, 2009 at 8:53 am

    Jessica – You need to leave him alone. No matter what you say, he won’t hear it, and you won’t feel better. This man likely doesn’t want you and even if he did, he is not up to stepping up to claim you. Now that you know better, you can do better, and you will.
    You MUST take care of you and you children. The holidays are coming. Immerse yourself in whatever aspects of them FEELS GOOD to YOU. You must be kind and gentle with yourself.
    Find things to do that you love. Do nice things for YOU everyday. Love on yourself.

  120.  #120tinque on December 6, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Jessie – Keep doing what you’re doing, things that feel good to you.

  121.  #121Lola on December 6, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Hi Jessica
    I feel bad for you, but relieved that you have found your way here.

    ‘The worst part is that my daughter mentioned to me how weak I am, and that REALLY hurts, I want to set a positive example.’

    I have been through a difficult relationship with my children involved and it feels so horrible and complicated. It’s easy to feel frustrated with yourself your children are questioning your behaviour because they can see things aren’t going right and you are hurting.

    I felt a lot of guilt because I felt I should have had the strength to say ‘enough’ once my children had commented on his behaviour. A friend kept saying to me ‘he only does what you let him’ and we often nearly fell out because I would try to point out how wrong his behaviour was, but in the end it hit home – I had no boundaries!!! I no longer beat myself up about this I accept what happened, and know that I had a very willing accomplice!!!!

    I have had a talk with my daughter and said (without badmouthing him), and said that N wouldn’t be around so much, as I had to be strong with him about not coming and going and until we had decided what we were going to be to each other we would just date – I hope she understands and realises that I am striving for boundaries. I’m sure your daughter will realise that you are striving to recover your strength (which is most definitely there) and she will learn a lot from your journey.

    Good luck and looking forward to your posts

  122.  #122Rachel on December 6, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    Hi again… I am having a hard night. I haven’t had any contact with the old guy for since Tuesday. I told him on Tuesday that I wasn’t going to wait around any longer. Basically told him good bye. And I know it was the right thing to do. I have an amazing new guy who is showering me with love and attention. Everything I’ve wanted.

    So… why am I sitting here in tears because I haven’t heard from the old guy? My head knows all the right things. There’s no comparison between the two. The guy I have right now is by far the better man. But my heart still feels so connected to and longing for the old one. Honestly, I am fighting the urge to email him and say I’m sorry! Which would be stupid!

    I’m so tired of hurting over this guy. I’ve tried to move forward but I just can’t forget him. Although I know there was a lot that was unhealthy in the relationship, I keep remembering all of the special intimate moments that I believe were real. I do believe that he loves me… just is emotionally unavailable in many ways. And that’s not the kind of man I want to be with. But I still miss him so much!

    AUGH! Just had to tell somebody. Thanks everyone.

  123.  #123Rachel on December 6, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    I guess I’m wondering… how long will this pain last? I feel like a part of me is always going to be crying for him. That I’ll always love him… and always have a bit of my heart that hopes he’ll come back. And I feel like that will be an awful way to live. But I don’t know how to truly walk away from someone I loved/love so much.

  124.  #124Rori Raye on December 6, 2009 at 9:25 pm

    Rachel – You are punishing yourself, which is a pattern you’ve had your whole life. The hurt is about something else, and has nothing to do with him except that he’s triggering this “longing.” If you can wrap your head around this truth – you’ll be stronger when that feeling comes up. It’s a subconscious desire to hurt yourself. Just say loud and clear to yourself that you love all your feelings, even these feelings of misery and pain, and that you INTEND to NOT hurt yourself, and to make yourself very happy…and that you will stick to that….see how that helps. This is basically a trauma response. Like PTSD. In order to stop the cycle, you have to interrupt it. Write a channeling list, write and write lists about your strengths, what you like, small things you can use and do and think about and put yourself in front of that will make you happy…that will create a new pattern, and then you can heal yourself! I can send you to Virginia Feingold Clark for hypnotherapy and Sharon Porter and Emily Van Horn for Somatic Trauma Resolution, and Erika Awakening for EFT – even a session with each will help take the edge off the pain and anxiety…Virginia is my closest friend – start with her at http://www.yourinnerguide.com if you’d like to try. Otherwise – just keep doing what you’re doing, use my Tools…Circular Date – you can do this!. Love, Rori

  125.  #125Daria on December 8, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    Can you LOVE a man who does not treat you with “care”?

    Yes I can love anyone and anything, even a tree. But I can’t feel good having a relationship with a man who doesn’t treat me with care.

    Is love a feeling, or is it an “action” word? – is it enough to feel love, whatever that feels like to you…or do you have to DO something with that feeling in order for actually to BE love?

    Love is a feeling… an energy… mmm… love is an action tooo … its like the photon and the wave

    Can you love someone who doesn’t love you back?

    Yes. It doesn’t make for a good feeling relationship though.

    Can you love someone in a different WAY than someone loves you…and still call that “love”?

    Yes. I feel so confused about this but yes. I believe we can love everyone and everything in some way.

  126.  #126Simply Shannon on December 8, 2009 at 7:15 pm

    Daria: I feel such resonance with what you just wrote. I feel goofy saying that word because I don’t really know what “resonance” feels like, but it’s the word that popped up for me as I was reading. I feel “yes”, in agreement, whatever that feeling is. It feels good to read that post. I can feel the honesty in your words. Thank you Daria.


  127.  #127jessica on December 8, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    i made a comment earlier and now its not here, wonder what I did wrong? darn I was feeling so powerful when I typed that today, I am bummed.

  128.  #128Rori Raye on December 8, 2009 at 8:48 pm

    So sorry Jessica – now, when I comment on other sites, I do a quick copy (Ctrl-C) before I make another move or press the button. That way, if somethings weird, I can do it again quickly….Rori

  129.  #129jessica on December 9, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    I ran, not walked away when I felt bad, I honored my own feelings what feels good and what doesnt. I took a good hard look at him and his actions (or non-actions, I should say) and saw for the first time in two years, this is NOT WHAT I WANT. I am hopeful I WILL GET what I deserve. I have earned it, paid the price, now that I have begun to love and shower affection on the most deserving, which is ME!!! with the guidance of my angel Rori, whom I met thru Christian Carter (wonderful teachings he has by the way) Thanks Rori, look forward to more communication from all of u, my support system. We CAN have the relationship we want. I always use to preach, now I shall practice the old adage :TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  130.  #130jessica on December 9, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    oh yeah ladies, you absolutely must go to you tube and listen to a song called “this time” sung by “three doors down”. I insist. And please let me know how you feel after you listen to the feelings the singer is trying to convey. Personally I love this song, I listen to it every day.
    Dam, I feel good. Thanks Rori for turning me on to Debra Bernt, she called me, and sent me links to self hypnosis. I feel so peaceul now. yes, I sure have a long way to go. Rori, I finally realized I have labeled feelings as being love when they actually were something else.
    A true lady (which I happen to be one) knows how to go from one mistake to another without any loss of enthusiasm. A true lady knows when to try harder and when to walk away. A true lady is content to leave her youth behind. A true lady knows how to live alone even if she doesnt like it.

  131.  #131Terry on December 17, 2009 at 10:19 am

    I used your Dec. 6 response to Rachel on this thread about loving all my feelings and then channeling and writing them down.

    I also used your tool about breathing from my heart and then NOT contacting Steve. I did slip up and texted him once on Monday, but all I said was “finals week!”
    The more I did this tool, the easier it got to keep my fingers off those buttons and feel good about it! 🙂

    I have been reading the threads on the blogsite and have found so much collective wisdom and insight from comments made on other people’s situations that apply to me.

    Mostly, I’ve been getting through finals of 16 upper division credits of advanced writing and Brit lit — and am getting STRAIGHT A’s and high praise from my professors!

    When Steve finally responded to my text a day later, he merely asked if I was going crazy yet. I reacted without thinking and replied that I could use a break later this week. I was mad at myself for that, but haven’t contacted him at all since then.
    He hasn’t texted, called, offered to take me out for coffee or even wished me good luck on my finals. Wow…
    That’s not even crumbs. I am angry at him, but my intention now is to focus on me.

    I will likely have to see him at the theater board Christmas party TONIGHT. I don’t want to go, but I have to. I’ve worked so hard to get on that board and have the chance to direct a show next year — I can’t bail.

    I suspect the best thing to do is take my lovely self there and try to not focus on him, but I’m afraid that I will melt when I see him all gorgeous with those big brown eyes, all my good intentions will vanish, and I will end up panting after him like a Chihuahua (or at least send way more energy his way than I want to) and then hate myself for it. How can I keep my focus and not turn into a pile of Jell-O?
    My head knows this man has opted out of the relationship, but I’m afraid all the hormones and chemicals and memories (mine, not his) will come roaring back when we’re in the same room together. I can’t completely ignore him while there, but it’ll be really weird to even make social small talk knowing that just a few months ago we had glorious steamy hot times together and he wanted to marry me and spend forever with me.

    I could really use some quick help here.

  132.  #132Rori Raye on December 18, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    Terry – all I can say is we’ve all been there – socializing with men we adore and who are not available to us because of our work or our passions – this is simply standard in the entertainment industry, even at the college level – it’s just incestuous, it’s the way it is…best advice is to sink into your feelings, don’t allow yourself to get tense resisting your feelings, and talk to people you LIKE, who like YOU. Love, Rori

  133.  #133Diana on December 21, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    I just wrote this for me, and to thank Rori, but I also want to share some of my self with the brilliant ladies who’ve shared their own experiences with me…(sorry it’s so loooong)

    What was my experience of love as a child? Well, I had it from my mom in a very steady way…but then in my teen years, my crazy sister was freaking them out, they had to declare bankruptcy, my dad had to quit his own small business that he loved and start a job that he hated… Wow, look at me, making excuses for them! Anyway, my sheltered, almost excessively loving and supportive family turned upside down, with little to no communication about the stresses that were boiling under my parents’ feet. I really didn’t even know about their money trouble until maybe a year ago. They’re WASPs. They don’t talk about things.

    My mom and dad were so volatile when I was in high school, it felt like any little mistake would set them off. I tried SO hard to control myself, to not screw up, or at least not get caught. Then I had to feel guilty about all the things they did for me – I had my own horse, I had parents who were still married when almost all my friends’ parents were divorced. Therefore, I couldn’t complain. I was silenced. I couldn’t win an argument with logic or by sharing my feelings so I just learned to shut up, get yelled at, apologize and take it.

    As an adult, I just about pee my pants if someone yells at me, or seems angry or disappointed. I can’t argue to save my life! I just steam and boil and rage inside and let people walk on me because fighting back was never an option in my life. I people-please my ass off just to stay away from conflict.

    I have had a sick infatuation with an older man for EIGHT years. I told myself I loved him – more than ANYTHING. Now I see, Rori, that I was calling this thing LOVE, when it was really just a reenactment of my childhood. This guy was so fussy, so sensitive to any minute pressure, expectation, demand, desire, need from other people – he would never answer his phone, he hid from his own family, he was always out of reach, and if I did anything that made him feel like I wanted something resembling a NORMAL relationship, he’d push me away. So the challenge was on: How can I control my behavior so that I do everything right in his (twisted) eyes and thereby win his love?

    I got a few I love you’s over the course of several years, and I got a lot of mediocre sex (of course he’d want to have me around – I slept with his aging bald self and didn’t ask questions!!!). All the while, I thought I was so selfless in my love for him. I actually thought it was noble that I could love such an eccentric, interesting person. I was proud that he had “chosen” me. Everyone thought he was so cool – he was a legendary bachelor, and I was proud to be his cliche – much younger and better-looking arm candy.

    Ugh! God, my skin is crawling!

    So, after I gave that up I started internet dating. (although my pattern has been to occasionally email him, then drive myself absolutely NUTS waiting around for a response. Sometimes it takes a few days, sometimes six months. It’s masochistic!!!!!!!) I dated one guy for about a year, but he was unreliable, always late, and all-around your typical Peter Pan “I’m in a rock band” kind of guy. But of course I wanted his approval, so I worked my ass off, and then he dumped me by never returning my calls. I felt rejected by someone I didn’t really even LIKE!

    Next, I met a great guy – good job, extremely intelligent, sweet and seemingly caring. We broke up two days shy of one year because he felt like I didn’t care about him enough. I tried to show him love, but I had been so conditioned to not share my feelings, that I guess I was too “subtle” for his needs. I feel like I put my head and heart out there big-time! I felt so brave!!! But it wasn’t enough and I got dumped right before Thanksgiving (which I had invited him to at my parents’ house – first time ever that I was going to bring a guy home to meet my parents. Big step for me)

    I think he had a similar childhood problem, with a really emotionally abusive, extremely masculine-energy father, who was also absent most of the time.

    Anyway, this isn’t about the men, it’s about ME. The person I abuse and neglect the most, it appears!

    Rori, I am so open and ready to move forward with my life! I have decided to break clean from all the old characters who haunt my past and start living my life like it matters! (DUH??!!)

    This is so basic, it’s almost embarrassing (if it weren’t so freaking profound!), but here is the major take-away I’ve gleaned from reading you: If a man makes me feel bad, I can move away, and on. I don’t have to try just for the sake of trying. I don’t have to go down with a sinking ship. I can swim! I can save myself and find dry land, or a luxury yacht, and keep living in a way that FEELS GOOD.

    I guess my idea of “love” from adolescence carried over, didn’t it? Just like you said in this post. But my methods as a kid never worked – I got love from my parents by just BEING their daughter (even if they couldn’t express it at the time) and being myself – which is sensitive, introspective, sweet and empathic. In my search for love and approval though, I turned all those qualities against myself, thinking I could BEHAVE my way into love – by being someone else…even though the reason I wasn’t getting love had NOTHING to do with me.

    It feels so good to share this. It feels like I just returned from a harrowing journey, and now I’m back in my sacred place with myself, free to think back to all my wild adventures and turn them into helpful lessons for my future. I think of myself as an old wise woman sitting in a rocking chair in front of a fire. Every so often, I venture out of my little cottage in the forest and go on a journey through a dark and dangerous place to slay dragons and become a hero. Then I return, see my adventure clearly, and keep on rocking in my rocking chair, being a wise woman.

    Not a sexy fantasy self, but it feels like me!!!

    Thank you Rori for letting me open my self to these fabulous feelings!!!

  134.  #134Rori Raye on December 22, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Diana, Welcome, and what an amazing comment – so compelling and harrowing and beautifully written. Your story can heal so many…I hope you’ll keep posting here and interacting. You already sound well on your way to your Happy Ever After, and we’re all here to cheer you on, to “watch your back,” give you feedback and inspire you. Love, Rori

  135.  #135Jay on December 24, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    Rori, is right. No one makes us love and stay with the men who treats us badly. We choose it. At the same time, we can also choose to walk away from them. It takes a lot of courage that many of us don’t have, however, we have to take that step because it brings our self worth back. We don’t deserve a frog or a prince. We deserve a King because he possesses great morals, ethics, generosity and has a heart of gold.

    Terry, sweetheart, don’t look back. Even if he kneels right in front of you with a thousand flowers asking for forgiveness and promises to never do that again, still, don’t go back. He pushed you, slammed the door right infront of your face and his friends were such assholes. This was classic example of birds of the same feathers flock together. How rude, obnoxious and disrespectful were these men actions and behaviors. No respectful person in their right mind will do such a thing to another human being. Move on Terry, move on. Terry, don’t call him, don’t answer his calls, don’t respond to his emails and delete all his information from your life.

  136.  #136Sarah on January 9, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    I read your book and was very impressed with what I learned. I was going to order “Modern Siren” because I thought it would teach me more about my feminine energy and attraction. Then I found that you have your “Toxic Men” course which looks really good too.

    So I am wondering if I should start with the “Toxic Men” course and I am thinking…yes. I may want your feedback on this as well.

    I believe that my father was a narcissist or had behavior like an addict has. I putting the pieces together that at our house it was all about his needs and getting his approval. We all had to cater to him. He seemed to have a repulsion to me as a person and female- and he seemed to take out his frustration on me with verbal and emotional abuse. I got the worst of it and was sort of outcast from my family. I have tryed for years to either put it out of my mind and think positive and live my life. Or to try to look at this and make any sort of sense of it. All I knew was that it seemed I disturbed him and that he hated me.

    I would prefer to just forget about the whole thing, but unfortunately it haunts me in my relationships with men. The guys that I usually feel comfortable with are the ones that are sensitive and artsy ( more feminine) but who have major problems making money or keeping jobs. So they need a more masculine women to take care of things. And that is not me. I am finding I’m exhausted in life and havent had anyone who I could trust and rely on in this life. (My family is in denial about the abuse in general). And I dont like feeling this vuneralble and having a broken picker. So would the “Toxic Man” series be the one to start with? ? I’m guessing yes.


  137.  #137Sarah on January 9, 2010 at 6:41 pm


    One more question, does the “Toxic Men” one talk about the macsuline and feminine energy dynamics in a toxic relationship? Does this cover abusive realtionships?

    Thanx, Sarah

  138.  #138Rori Raye on January 11, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Sarah – Welcome – and Toxic Men is about power, and getting your power back. It’s about fixing that part of ourselves that gets involved over and over again in the same romantic situations that don’t work…A good pairing would be Toxic Men and then, when you’re ready, Targeting Mr. Right – because Circular Dating (that’s what Targeting is about) is basically how to PRACTICE with men, constantly, so that you’re quickly undoing all the Toxic patterns and putting what you can do now from the Toxic Men program into the practice – you get such fast results that way. Love, Rori

  139.  #139Sarah on January 11, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Thanx for your reply. In your book I love how you explain things in energy terms because I am very visual and right brained and have always been able to see energy transactions but not know what was happening. I am excited to get Toxic Men and start learning what is going on. Thanx for the work that you are doing!

  140.  #140tina on October 16, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    I have been dealing with this toxic boyfriend for quite some time and have been trying to distance myself and find my way back to myself (loving me and taking care of me).

    Well, I was able to distance myself and get back to healing myself wholly from the inside out and I allowed this guy again to come back in and tear things up. This time I am so upset and I feel worn trying to reheal myself for this has been going on for quite some time till I recently stumbled across Rori’s website. From there I recognized that it is about survival and taking settleing for crumbs.

    I oredred the Have the Relationship you want book and from there learned alot about things I had buried deep inside me and helped myself heal from it. However, I realized that something was still missing til I came across the Toxic Man video sample. I ordered the program because I want to learn how to walk away from all of this without feeling bad and how to play a strong offense.

    I typed everything up as my thoughts came through so hope it makes sense.

    I have realized that

  141.  #141Rori Raye on October 17, 2010 at 11:10 am

    tina, Welcome, I’m so glad you have Toxic Men now – I KNOW it will help you…and we’ll support you here. Love, Rori

  142.  #142tina on October 17, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    I actually feel like such a loser. How can I quickly heal from this mess. I am so disappointed in myself because I had let this guy back in after I had finally put myself back together.

  143.  #143Daria on October 17, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    tina – an important VERY important step is to NOT beat yourself up…

    feel the Feelings… sadness… disappointment… fear… loneliness… more fear, etc…

    but do NOT contribute THOUGHTs that beat yourself up…

    that will actually start healing everything, because you’ll be able to feel these feelings that were held back, and intending to treat yourself well


    (ps – theres another tina or 2 here on blog, so be aware of possible missunderstandings of whos who in the tina world)

  144.  #144tina-fontana on October 25, 2010 at 5:39 pm


    What if there is a cultural belief that is holding me back from the dating game?

    Help please?

  145.  #145Rori Raye on October 26, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    Tina-fontana – welcome – and what would that cultural belief be? Love, Rori

  146.  #146tina-fontana on October 26, 2010 at 6:12 pm

    A woman who is not virtuos is not worthy of true love? Because of this I am having a hard time taping back into my feminine energy.


  147.  #147Alison on February 12, 2011 at 6:46 am

    Hi I am about to purchase toxic men, I already have modern siren. I had previously had two violent relationships and then came along a guy who was completely different, he had anger issues but not towards me and a drink problem but we quickly became good friends, we got together much too quick and I wasnt sure at first I felt that way for him but he was so good and kind to me and my children he just stuck around he worked 24hrs to help look after us my whole life started to improve with him and although we found each other difficult and the relationship was frustrating as he would never open up or talk to me he became my rock and after time I started to realize how much I really loved him and as I turned closer to him he turned further away and after 7yrs together he left saying he wasn’t sure he wanted commitment as I wanted marriage and that he loved me but was not in-love with me! even though he left we still continued seeing each other for meals chats and sex but he would always still say he didnt want to be in a relationship with me and bit by bit with moving closer and closer it dwindled down to just sex so after 3mts of pain like I had never experienced before I knew I had to put a stop to it as I felt it was starting to make me ill. Its a tough one for me as I know this man is such a good guy from all that he has been and done for me and I am now so inlove with him that everytime I don’t see him he after a while wants to see me as he still sees my children for a chat and then he wants to help me by doing things for me and being all kind and I enjoy his company and we have a lot of history but he still just wants friendship and for me after 7yrs and being inlove with him I just cant’ do that, then he backs off when I say this untill something else brings us together again. He is now enjoying his freedom as he for some reason would never go out or have a social life when he was with me and there are times he will text girls infront of me and if I have in the passed got upset about it he will then turn it around to say I used to text male friends when we was together and that it is no different, he says he isnt seeing anyone else and doesnt want a relationship at all but everytime we seem to end up being pulled back together he wants to talk or help me but nothing changes the last time I asked him if there he had feelings for anyone else in a nice conversation we had he said no not really not in my mind anyway (whatever that means) I am always left so confused by him and somehow always let him in my heart as that is where he sits and always has, we always had a strong connection and mirror each other and I just can’t seem to break it and if I do is there a chance he may come back?

  148.  #148Alison on February 12, 2011 at 6:56 am

    Can I also just say that I have stopped asking him anything about what he does and have started having a life myself he still seems to want to help me though? is he just not emotionally ready? everytime I do see him after a few week gap he always tells me he is becoming more emotional and opening up more which is great but still he wants to be single but all this pulls me towards him and why does he keep tellin g me this? he seems warmer and softer towards me too and looks at me with sparkling eyes but no changes towards us other than friends what should I do? I feel a bit stuck at times with him as he has my heart and I know he isnt a bad guy he really isnt please help as I am in the uk and will have to wait a while for my toxic men cd to arrive

  149.  #149Rick on October 10, 2011 at 11:03 am

    I am a man, I saw your site and thought a woman would probably be my best help. So here it goes. I am married
    for 27 years. For the past 10 years my wife and I grew apart. We talked about it, went for counseling and realized we are not in love any more. We live like best friends and roommates. Not like a husband and wife. My wife also over these 10 years has lost interest in sex, she blames it on early menopausal issues. So we decided to divorce. We are both fine in all this. Here is the problem, I met a woman 4 years ago and started a friendship with her that grew into a love relationship between us. Even though it was against both our principles we made love and fell in love. My girlfriend knew all up front,except shethought our divorce would have been faster, which is my fault because I wanted my wife to initiate the process. Before I met this woman four years ago my wife said she wanted a divorce.
    So I waited for her to initiate the process, not knowing I would fall for another woman. The reason for the delay in our divorce was financial, too many things hit all at once.
    You name it it happened, my daughter was going to college, the economy got bad, my investments tanked on me, and job loss. So now I am in the process of my divorce but my girlfriend feels she fell out of love with me. She feels I should have moved it faster for us to be together. Now she tells me that she does not want sex which we have been holding off of any way and says get the divorce and we will see how she feels after this. Now in between all this she has been true to me and I true to her. She mentioned that somebody was interested in courting her and asked me how I felt? I said I am in love with her and her only and asked her not to let anybody in between.
    I want to marry her and have a family with her. So far she has not let anybody in. As per her request, she just wants to see eachother as friends which is what we are doing. We get together play tennis, go to a movie, have dinner etc. Her rule is no intamacy till I am divorced, I agreed. I am in love with her no doubt, I know she loves me no doubt.
    I just wonder can she fall back in love with me? How do I handle this? I don’t want to lose her. How do I keep her without pressuring her? I don’t want to smother her yet I want her to know I am there for her. How do I reassure her of this as I go through the process of divorce. I am finding my relationship with her tougher than the divorce because as a man I don’t know if I am reading her right. I lover so much and she knows it, yet I feel I could lose her if I don’t play my cards right. I hope you can help me. Signed, Rick, A man lost in love as he goes through a divorce.