YOU Can Date Other Men, But He CAN’T Date Other Women – Is That Fair?

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girl-horseOkay – so just because YOU want to date other men – does HE get to date other women? NO!!!

Here’s a letter from Victoria that started this post:

“Rori, I was thinking about your Circular Dating and turned it around. Would you be able to date a man you were very interested in (hoping to marry) for a year or so, if he was also going out with other women and maybe sleeping with them? I don’t think I could, considering the health risks.

So if a woman continues to date, she has to allow that for her man…no? It would be very hard not to ask questions and be consumed with curiosity. Victoria.”

And here’s my very provocative answer (provocative to men, especially, who argue with me about this all the time – though they KNOW I’m right and tell other MEN and their little sisters and women friends the same thing):

If you are dating a man – you let him know that you’re either dating or engaged, and that you’re looking to be married.

After a couple of months of dating a man, perhaps sleeping with him (which I don’t recommend – there just needs to be an exception clause for young women, women who really want to be sexual and want to try to handle it) – sex, in my opinion has to be exclusive – but not DATING – if he’s still dating other women, I’d drop him like a hot potato.

In other words – once you let him know you want to be married – and that otherwise you’re dating – if he does NOT move to claim you right away – if he STILL feels the need to be with other women, if he isn’t ready – then you continue to date him and date others, UNLESS or UNTIL it doesn’t feel good to you. Then you drop him.

The idea is to keep dating as many men at once as you can fit in your schedule.

First man to claim you that you want – that’s it.

In other words – he’s the one who has to make the decision to come get you.

Victoria, after a year with you, it’s completely ridiculous for a man to want to date other women. If he doesn’t know he wants you by then – drop him out of your rotation.

The terrible thing is to get invested in a man and then find out he didn’t want you.

When you’re able to express to a man, simply and without an “agenda,” that he can’t have you all to himself “unconditionally” – that’s when he makes a decision.

And he makes that decision without you PRESSURING him, or explaining things to him, or trying to convince him – or anything. No ultimatum. No threat. Just taking care of yourself.

Love, Rori

97 Comments

  1.  #1Ann on June 8, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    Thanks Rori I’ve wondered before why you said if a man dated other women to drop him. I get it if he really wanted a woman he’d be working to claim her not dating more women.



  2.  #2Dorothea on June 8, 2009 at 9:33 pm

    I need clarification on what to do with this if I’m not interested in THE commitment from a man right now, even though that is my end ideal. I am young. I just want to date. I don’t want to be exclusive. I feel like circular dating even if I feel myself falling for one man in particular. Is he still not entitled to date other women? What do you think?

    I told the guy I’m falling for that I don’t want to be exclusive or his Girlfriend and he said that he understands and he holds me in that high esteem regardless. I feel no pressure. Then curiously enough I find myself feeling like being exclusive with him. I love how the various Tools I’ve picked up here have given me this easy freedom. My question above in the first paragraph is more about men I might not be falling for just yet – maybe I’m even just practicing with them…



  3.  #3Daria on June 8, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    Yes, ditto on what Dorothea said. I tell men I’m looking to be married in the future and meanwhile I’m dating from the very first phone convo. I’m not ready for them to claim me at that time.

    Do you mean that as soon as WE want to be married to him and then tell him that we want to or else we’re dating, THEN we drop him if he doesn’t follow through?



  4.  #4alias girl on June 8, 2009 at 11:23 pm

    it took me awhile and a couple of read throughs to get this. then with ann’s comment for some reason something clicked. not sure why. also not sure i feel 100% aligned with the whole thing but that could also be because i am not 100% sure of what i want. sometimes i want to be claimed and sometimes i don’t. and i do not feel comfortable or safe with the idea of marriage. i feel excited about the romantic fairytale of marriage but not so excited about the examples of it i see around me. yuck.

    so i feel confused how to apply this to me. if i were a man could i truly go after a woman, any woman. the best woman in the world even, and know for sure that this was the best idea? to claim her i meanm

    since it is up to the man ultimately. if i were in the captain’s chair could i do it? i don’t know. if i were me as a man picking me, alias girl the fabulous, alias the once in a lifetime sure i could. but that’s only because i am sure of the truth os me and well

    how can you be sure of another human being?

    so i feel really confused because i understand the waffling. i don’t take 100% personally. what i really can’t do anymore is a man who doesn’t court me AS IF he wants to claim me. hehe. i feel like i make no sense but it makes perfect sense to me. i feel bad. like it’s just another one of my no win double binds that i set up for men.

    i want them to pursue me and court me like a goddess. period. ok. that feels better. no double bind there. i’ve just chosen guys in my past who acted like they didn’t care if i walked.. UNTIL i actually walked. THEN they cared.



  5.  #5Daria on June 8, 2009 at 11:49 pm

    I can totally see how a man would want a woman forever because I have fallen like this before and would SO have married the guy and been with him, he was the one for me etc… so I can imagine that’s how they would feel which is enough for sure to marry her trust me because I wouldve married him with all his faults (if he was serious about being married).



  6.  #6Daria on June 9, 2009 at 12:36 am

    You guys, I did not get offered the job. The ceo wrote me and said basically what they said when they first turned me down (which I wrote them about and then got another interview)…

    he said I had great qulities like being likable and engaging…etc… but in the class i seemed like i presented the crucial points more than build them from the ground up.

    what feels ironic and awful is that I particularly practiced presenting this way for the interview because I thought they were gonna have a strict 5 minute limit for me which seemed to not really give me enough time to deeply solicit the students. Which is what i normally do.

    So the CEO said I seemed to be more of a natural presenter than a teacher which is so off because I am a great teacher that can really engage a student step by step.

    Im feeling awful and down kinda… yet calm…

    I feel sad and kinda ashamed…

    I wanted this job as a temporary thing because right now I don’t feel confident in getting customers enough to have my own business the way I want… why? I don’t know. I’ve never really made money in my life. I am trying to let go of my identity as a brilliant person who can’t take care of herself.

    I feel icky.

    I feel frustrated at not being seen for my best qualities. It is funny because being told I’m not (as) good at teaching (as presenting) sounds to me like being told I’m not as good at being Daria as I am at being Daria.

    I felt like I had crawled halfway up my financial “wall” by getting to this interview… and now although I ahven’t fallen back down I am kinda spiderman stuck at this level. I am going to put a ledge under my feet right now so I Can rest without grasping to the wall.

    I kinda reached forward for this job by insisting for an interview after they first had turned me down, and also by preparing very nervously for the presentation. I guess all the effort kinda threw it off or what not.

    I wish to have a fun modern job like being a coach or a healing practitioner or fun teacher that makes lots of money without being tied down to any place in particular or a particular schedule. That would feel fun and succesful to me.

    Then I could move to Brazil easier also… which is the plan anyway.

    Urger burger sad Daria Daria feels sad and pouty. I love my sad and pouty feelings. i feel like being hugged.

    I did EFT for my presentation and the CEO said wasnt it kinda new agey and i felt a little silly but I said it can be thought of that way but it can also work. Only one person had an actual big shift in their breathing capability with my EFT breathing exercise so I was feeling that I couldn’t probably present EFT well.

    But now the CEO wrote that he tried using it several times and it hasnt failed to help him. That feels suspicious and surprising to me, I don’t know if it is true, I feel curious whether it is, yet I feel insecure that he thinks it’s wacky and I’m wacky and is just saying that to pacify the wacky person. I feel triggerd thinking that my parents would say just that… maybe.

    I feel sad in my pouty lip face.

    I want to be free of financial worries.

    I feel embarassed to be 27 and living at home, without an income, and my parents WANTING me to have an income. Ok I do have minimal income from the tutoring jobs I do have. I feel sad sad sad.

    I feel worried the world is turning into asphalt again which slaps hard and not like the dreamy stuff I like dealing with. I have cultural stuff ingrained in me about life being hard and making money being an absoulute sacrifice and struggle and etc… blah… i feel gross and sad… and just mad… i feel angry… i feel hopeless…

    here we go again FUCK… i feel guilty for bringing this desperate down feeling energy to the blog about my financial stuff…

    Blah… i feel icky…

    I wish somebody I knew would just say… Daria you’re brilliant… why don’t u join me and do such and such fun job with me like coaching or seomthing… but that hasn’t happened to me…

    I suck…

    I love my feeling that I suck…

    I feel heavy in my face and I love my heavy feeling face… I love feeling like this is so hard and heavy…

    A lot of time i picture myself like waht would I do or be like if i were in a concentration camp or seomthing or a starvation environment. That’s part of why when I have food i eat it ALL because “you never know when you’ll have food next” which feels kinda cool because I don’t like wasting stuff and ]also I feel weird I dono. I want it to be easy and feel good too.

    I don’t want to have to struggle, or feel embarassed that I don’t struggle either.

    I want it all.

    I’m really a prayer witch medicine woman Goddess.



  7.  #7Matthew on June 9, 2009 at 2:09 am

    All things must pass. There is nothing outside of yourself, nothing at all to hold onto. Id check out http://www.alienlovebite.com.

    Alien ochestrated human bonding dramas tend to fill in the gaps where reason fails. Relationships are not what you think…hahaha



  8.  #8Daria on June 9, 2009 at 2:13 am

    I feel better already. I bet you are not surprised because i seem to feel better fast lately.

    My friend who Rocks offered to help make me a websiter for my own tutoring company… so that I can start attracting clients and stuff.

    in return I will help her review the math for the GRE test which I LOVE doing.

    So this is great.

    Thank you Angels.

    Please help me feel great and attract lots of fun feeling clients and great pay. Thank you!!!



  9.  #9JasonSavage on June 9, 2009 at 2:33 am

    First time on the site, as I was directed here by a female reader.

    I think this is a great post. In a way, you saying this: “Guys, if you’ve found the one that you want to create a spiritual alliance with, the one you want to have creational sex with, your holy relationship — why wouldn’t you offer her the gift of your sexual exclusivity?” All the other men she is “dating” are there only to deliver messages, so to say she cannot “date” them is to reveal massive insecurities, not masculine fearlessness.

    The point seems to be about encouraging women to stop looking for Mr. Right either as some mystical soul mate or an idealized image. And to stop putting up with the hesitation and deliberation of men in general. It is saying neither make this pros-vs-cons list of who objectively should come out on top. And, neither, go with which guy feels right. The point is, the decision is not yours. You can decide to drop a guy, but the decision to move forward has to be made among the men. May the real man step forward.

    Mr. Right is, effectively, the first guy to recognize you as his holy relationship — AND then to take action, by staking his claim and taking you off the market. It’s practical advice and, in essence, this is the only way you can know he’s the one. He had the balls to claim you when no one else did. You can respect him forever for that. Finally, a man who is not afraid.

    Now that you found the one, you can stop mourning your past. The man who is this fearless will enter your consciousness so deeply that all prior loss becomes a blessing. Space is made for opening into bliss. And that’s where the real awakening begins.

    Jason Savage



  10.  #10searchingwithin on June 9, 2009 at 4:34 am

    Great advice, as always. I so wish feminism had never stepped in to the point that women grew up acting like men, and were never taught what it means to be feminine, and retain our power and strength as such. In so many ways we now behave weaker, rather than stronger.



  11.  #11Erika on June 9, 2009 at 6:51 am

    Searchingwithin,

    I agree so much about feminism. It disempowers men, too. When women are willing to step in and “mother” a guy, paying his way and allowing him to have uncommitted sex, we are not empowering him to become fully a man. He will only be fully in his masculine power when we are fully in our feminine power.

    At least that’s how I see it now.



  12.  #12Nelia on June 9, 2009 at 7:07 am

    This is gutsy stance, Rori. I agree with the principle, but I wonder if we would agree on the execution.

    Dorothea : In my opinion, if you are entitled to date, then your guy is entitled to date. However, the question is, what do you do if the guy chooses to take you up on that entitlement, rather than, as Ann writes, to working to claim you. It seems in your situation, it doesn’t much matter. Your not interested in being claimed. But in Victoria’s case, it matters a great deal and he’s conveyed, via his actions, how he values her and their relationship.

    I’d be curious to read other thoughts re Dorothea’s question…



  13.  #13Jason on June 9, 2009 at 10:51 am

    As a man stumbling across this conversation, I don’t find Rori’s conclusion provocative at all. In fact, I find it rather traditional. Feminism has turned the tables on the gender roles in EVERY aspect of our culture, psychology and biology. Everywhere we turn, we discover new areas of confusion that didn’t seem to exist maybe 50 or 100 years ago.

    While women have rightfully fought specifically for equal rights in the workplace, what no one bargained on was the emergence of equal rights in the dating and mating space. So individual women have been dabbling in courting and sexual behaviors that men have traditionally preferred. That is to say, women have been trying out casual sex and the emotional compartmentalization that goes with it. Sometimes it works at various times of a woman’s life, but if the goal of the woman is commitment, she needs to make the man wait to test his willingness to commit.

    From an evolutionary and historical perspective, women have had much more to lose from casual sex (medical complications of pregnancy, loss of partner to rear children, etc.). So it is deeply engrained in female biology to seek commitment from a man who can provide good resources. At the same time, women are biologically suited to polyamory, which is supported by the existence of “soldier” sperm cells whose sole purpose is to wage war on other men’s sperm cells. There is a component to female biology to seek out the worthiest sperm for her offspring. So we humans are capable of both commitment and promiscuity, of course, and our evolutionary biology supports both.

    That being said, if you want to try sex without commitment, you are free to do so. But do not complain if the man is not reciprocating with commitment. Never allow any man to pressure you or lead you into anything with the hope that it will turn out the way you want it to. And by all means, heed Rori’s advice and stay true to what you want in life and move on from any situation that is not aligned with your purpose.



  14.  #14Robin on June 9, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Daria,

    I feel so close to you and I identify with how you feel right now, Im also 27, and TOTALLY know ALL about that feeling you’re talking about.

    Im scared as HELL of what Im doing financially, and feel down when I look around sometimes…

    I wonder what has become of my life (not that its been bad-and I don’t regret anything that has happened, and I WONT BEAT MYSELF UP), I feel scared that I will never be ready finincially to marry..and finances are coming up all over the place, men Im dating are asking me about my credit and my debt amounts from college, and neither are in particularly good shape, and I don’t know how to fix it, I just know that I want to turn this around…and I feel self-consious about it

    I can hear that voice saying ‘you’re a loser..Im a loser’, but Im NOT-and Daria you DON”T SUCK!!!

    I feel so inspired by your posts, and you are brilliant, I am sure…

    I believe that this job didn’t come through b/c something WAY BETTER for you is right around the corner-YOU ARE SO AWESOME!



  15.  #15Rori Raye on June 9, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Jason – Welcome and Thank you! You hit this right on the head, and it’s SO important for us all to see that a man – a sensitive, thoughtful, articulate, good man like you obviously are…GETS this. Even if individual men might grumble and complain about it – all men actually GET this difference between men and women – that the stakes are COMMITMENT, and though both men and women WANT commitment – there are different emotional, biological and spiritual imperatives around it all. I want us women to stay true not to our “traditional” values, or any rules, but to really, really pay attention to how we FEEL – individually and uniquely – and let THAT guide us through this confusing, contradictory and conflicted cultural time. Thanks again, Jason, and hope you will hang out here often…Rori



  16.  #16Rori Raye on June 9, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Oh, Jason, Thank you – this is fabulous. I hope you continue to post here, this is SO helpful. Rori



  17.  #17Rori Raye on June 9, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Just to clear up about “feminism” – you who are young have not experienced the reason for feminism – there was simply a completely different view of the worth of a woman. The opportunities to go “out the window” and make a fabulous life for yourself just weren’t there. Feminism changed that. I am devout about that.

    The interpretation of feminism as relates to men, relationships and romance was off kilter, but it created something in marriage and relationship that was necessary – and that is the lack of NEED to be in one. I think the rest just became a habit. We got confused. We didn’t know how to behave in a powerful position in the world, and so we just spewed it out over everyone. True feminism, to me, is the full scale of experience. The TRUE feminist honors prostitutes and porn artists and “bimbos” without judgment – only offering new possibilities. True feminism is not a “party line.” It is about the glory of being fully a woman. Strength inside as well as outside. Instead of a huge armored defense against inner weakness, a full-throated acceptance of all that we are. A CELEBRATION. That’s my take. Love, Rori



  18.  #18Linmayu on June 9, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    The word “feminism” really ought to mean “women being fully alive in their FEMININE power.” Really, that is what it seems to me so many of us want. Yes–the radical notion that women are in fact PEOPLE and not property–AND a recognition of our own unique strengths. A possibility for women to play our own game and win abundantly, rather than only having the option of clawing our way to the middle in a man’s game.

    Reading Erika’s blog commenters, I see a snapshot of what modern feminism has done to men, and it’s not pretty. They’re wanting to lean back. They’re saying women have to pay their way and earn their keep–on a date–and that sex doesn’t count as a way to do that. They’re saying that chivalry is disrespect and don’t we want to be respected like men? So we’re supposed to pay for dinner and then give sex for free–and for what? For him to get bored once he’s had us, and find someone prettier to do the same thing for him next week. After all, they’re entitled to have the best they can get, aren’t they?

    These guys make me feel so angry. I have to walk away when I read their comments, lest I be drawn into a no-win argument.

    Now, to Jason, I say welcome. A man–and a man on the Internet, no less–who understands that being a real man does NOT simply mean winning at everyone else’s expense is rare, and to be honored.



  19.  #19Tina on June 9, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    This is where I find myself. How do I find a happy medium?. How do I balance my relationship?. I am not willing to move in right away or get married – heck Im still only legally seperated. I’m beginning my new life. I cannot finanically afford to get divorced,it has not become an issue with us – or at least that is how I feel. I feel ok – just ok. I would feel a divorce is nessessary because I will be his next of kin – legally. I do not want that, its been three years since our seperation, I no longer feel near as terrible as I felt before. Terrible in the sense that I have to start over with all the obstacles in the way – a very stressful situation. I am just now starting to relax in my new place, growing my tomatoes , doing some art, working, taking care of my son, writing a business plan, writing a book – I need an editor lol.

    Am I missing something here? Im not entirely about this relationship. He is about as affectionate as a rock. The first time he came up to me and physically touched me was a week ago. He is a ‘good man” in a lot of ways, I just dont feel like Im handling this/our situation well. A lot of feelings came up for me recently. Can I have my cake and eat it too?. I feel unsure about the cake I have lol.



  20.  #20Ann on June 9, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Jason I second Rori please hang around and post. I love to hear a man’s perspective. I feel it helps us to become the women we want to be and men want us to be.

    Thanks



  21.  #21Tina on June 9, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    I do know that if he is going to date then it will be ONLY me he dates. I do not feel to date other men. I do like the alternative of circular dating though. If it means being around other men and interacting with them, then I am ok with that. The strength Ive gathered for myself while around other “Sirens” feels wonderful. I feel wonderful. I love my feeling of wonder.

    I know I would lose all respect for him if he were to date other women. My feelings of worthlessness/unimportance becomes so stronge when I am in relationships, I feel it is killing my spirit. I feel I need to find my feelings and ‘handle” these feelings and I am in a good place when I come here.



  22.  #22Tina on June 9, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    When I give/show my man respect and power within our relationship, I feel expectant of certain things like physical affection, a feeling of ” I am important in your life” a whole list of things he must do – a to do list of sorts. We teach “them” they show what they learn by “doing” I dont feel to debate how “feminisim” mucked everything up for us women. I dont feel to argue, I feel when I do , I am putting myself in “defense” mode and I dont like that feeling of having to qualify myself to be the woman I know I am or can be, with or without a man.



  23.  #23Jason on June 9, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    Thank you for the encouragement.

    I want to make a comment about the duality of attraction/sexual desire (polyamory) vs. the need for commitment (exclusivity). Those of us born into Generation X were the first post-feminist generation, many of us having been raised by single mothers as a result of the rise in divorce rate. I believe this is where the train went off the tracks.

    As men in the industrialized world, we have already lost the tribal traditions that historically have indoctrinated us into the ancient and noble role that is manhood. Now in the post-feminist world, we have lost our sense of that role altogether. Our mothers taught us to be nice and respectful toward women, but many of us have internalized that as not being allowed to express ourselves in an authentic, mature, and masculine way. In essence, a disproportionately large group of us have gone one of two routes: either we become wimpy male doormats, or we become angry intolerant jerks. There aren’t that many Generation X men that I know who have found that happy medium.

    For my part, I became a doormat. And as a recovering doormat, I’ve had more than my fair share of either being altogether unattractive to women (friend-mode) or settling to be in a relationship with a woman that has not been able to fulfill my needs. This is the way of the supplicant male. He’s the one who thinks he can win you over by just being nice and buying nice things for you. He’s the one trying to pay attention to you all the time. Let me tell you, women, nothing kills your attraction faster than this needy mentality. But it’s clear HOW male doormats everywhere LEARNED how to be this way.

    As for the jerks, well they can be extremely attractive at first because of their raw masculinity, but when they fail to be nice enough they usually get dumped and the woman often feels deep disappointment because of it. This is where us doormats learned that “women like jerks”. So the doormat sacrifices his masculinity in an attempt to get the girl and the jerk just gives in to his animal nature and dark side. So no one is happy anymore.

    What we’re seeing is an interim culture of “hooking up”. Women are trying out sex without relationships more and certain men are taking advantage of it. The issue that surfaces is women are realizing that taking on more “male” behavior in this arena has emotional consequences. In the heat of the passion of seduction, women often choose to enjoy the moment and rationalize their actions under the umbrella of sexual freedom. What causes the conflict are the expectations, conscious or unconscious, stated or unstated, that women and men may be carrying into the sexual encounter.

    On the male side of the equation, we are witnessing the great doormat uprising of the century. This is the driver behind the “seduction community”, a vast movement of recovering doormats everywhere to learn to assert their masculinity and become more attractive to women. Trust me, ladies. As awkward as this transitional movement is, you want this to happen! You want desperately for men to be more masculine and therefore more attractive sexually. Bear in mind that with great power comes great responsibility. As men assert this power, you have to screen well for the ones that exercise it with responsibility and honor. And for that you will be greatly rewarded.

    There is a broader movement at work also. I believe there is a 21st Century renaissance happening right now and it’s being accelerated by the communication of the internet. We stand at the edge of a new beginning where individuals get to CLAIM their own roles in society and get to connect with others who COMPLEMENT those roles via internet enabled social networking. We get to ignore those who would seek to destroy the roles we’ve created. And we are no longer isolated from those who share our roles because of the internet and new media. Much of what kept uniform traditional roles in place was lack of freedom AND information. I think it’s safe to say those barriers no longer exist.



  24.  #24tinque on June 9, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Jason,
    How refreshing to read words such as yours, articulate, smart, and sensitive. I hope you continue to contribute.
    Thank you.
    As a note to Tina, you most definitely can have your cake and eat it too. There are masculine energy men who are enormously sensitive, kind, compassionate, loving, generous, and affectionate, and sweetly sexual. The more you open yourself and open yourself to this kind of energy, the more they will show up.
    xxoo tinque



  25.  #25Tina on June 9, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    I have always felt/feel attracted to a man that can hunt/fish and build homes and whats interesting is that all the men in my life know how to defend themselves – maritial arts, weapons handling – using deadly force if they need to. I feel turned on just typing it out lol. dang!. Im liking my cake!. Now tinque If i could find the character assets you menion , I would sooooo be in heaven lol.



  26.  #26Tina on June 9, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    I ran into “warm and fuzzy” today – the 31 yr.old brother of my friend. He was cooking a bbq steak, his mom just died so I didnt want to get to personal with him. I opened myself up, I started using feeling messages. I said ” I feel uncomfortable going into R’s home to get my guitar. He started to tell me how he was feeling – anger- I said oh -with a smile. I was curious by this point. He started to talk about his anger, he trailed off then just stared at me – his lips were moving but no words came out – fumbled for and lite a ciggie – offered me one. Thats it.



  27.  #27Tina on June 9, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    I’m going out tomorrow night to sing karaoke. I’ll be wearing my new sundress. My friend is coming with me , we plan to meet up with some others. I will be going full tilt lol – because I can.



  28.  #28Tina on June 9, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Please leave the ebook on sale. I GOT PAID TODAY!. I’ll buy it online when I got in to work tonight. wooohoooo!.



  29.  #29Erika on June 9, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    hey Linmayu,

    Yeah, it can be kinda depressing to read some of those comments. Guys who have a LONG way to go.

    I’m glad Jason is here too. He and I spent much of last weekend together 🙂



  30.  #30Rori Raye on June 9, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    Amen!



  31.  #31Linmayu on June 9, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    I have to say, I feel a LOT of attraction for a guy who will dote on me, pay attention to me all the time, and touch me a lot. BUT, if I can push a man around, then I will begin to lose trust and respect for him, and begin to see him as a little brother, whether I want to or not. I want–no, need–to be able to trust a man and I don’t feel that trust with a male doormat or a feminine energy man. And ultimately, such men can feel it by my inability to surrender in their presence, and then the energy is just all kinds of jacked up.

    As far as jerks, I don’t feel attraction to them at all. And it’s funny because my impression was always that this “seduction community” was populated by born-and-bred jerks. But recovering doormats makes more sense–and explains the raging animosity towards women that I feel from many seducers. It makes sense they’d want to make us pay, if they’ve had women walk all over them for years.

    Wow. I actually feel compassion for wannabe PUAs. I never thought I’d see that day.



  32.  #32Rachel on June 9, 2009 at 9:11 pm

    How is the other guy supposed to choose he wants you all to himself if he’s not aware you are dating another guy? You cant just come out and tell him without looking like you are manipulating or deliberately trying to make him jealous. explain 🙂



  33.  #33alias girl on June 9, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    i feel super excited about the honesty here. i feel shakey. well i already felt shakey before checking the blog but now i feel shakey more. more shakey. shakier. ?

    what is the shakey? argh. crunched up shoulders. argh. where does the energy want to go? it wants to move my shoulders up and down. i wants to shoot out the top of my head at high velocity. it wants to shoot down through both legs both feet like fast growing roots in a redwood tree. it wants to connect like a lightning rod to the other planets to othe lightning. ahhhh wtf. wtf is this shakey. it feels like overload. that ls what it is. too much energy. wow. whoa. holy crap. this is the oppoisite of frozen. good god. wtf.

    wow. and all i reall wanted to say is i feel excited about the honesty here. yowsa.



  34.  #34Daria on June 9, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    I feel energy freakin blasting in a column off the top of my head. Thank you Alias Girl. I see that I can actually feel this without pressuring the energy. wow I feel glad Alias Girl is back. I learn a lot from Alias girl. Time to hike up my development to high speed.



  35.  #35alias girl on June 10, 2009 at 12:07 am

    haha daria i feel laugh outloud when i read what you write sometimes. i feel very interest in your experiences and sharing of them. i felt intrguied by the experience with the guy in the airport.

    umm. ok. i don’t want to be rude but is that comment by matthew spam? it seems like it. or is that one of your people, daria, callin you back to the mothership?

    i don’t want to disrepsect alien abductees or ufo sighters. i feel open to all possibilities. really. it just seems like spam and i wanted to kid daria bc she used to joke she was an alien.

    ok. i feel overthetop goddess now. seriously. if guys don’t try and get my phone number or move things forward online i am yes you guessed it, Disgusted. hehe. one guy’s like ok don’t be a stranger. and i’m thinking NEXT.

    I DON’t want a man who is not trying to secure the next date or trying to get in with me. i honestly feel i have no time for them literally have no time for them not even just an expression of speech.

    i feel overthetop goddess. and i feel good about that. 🙂 big planet. tons of men. NEXT.



  36.  #36Jason on June 10, 2009 at 12:18 am

    Linmayu, you have bridged the gap. I am glad you can feel empathy for the male doormat/aspiring PUA. It means a lot to me personally that you can see it from our point of view. We all want the same thing: connection. Mutual understanding is the way to mutual satisfaction. Compassion is the way to peace.

    As for me, I long for that intimate relationship with a woman that fulfills all my desires. I want to have that deep commitment and partnership. And I want a vibrant sexual relationship to go along with it. I have had long term relationships with great women before, but none of them has been healthy and/or satisfying for me. It’s time I found what I’m looking for.

    I ask you all for your support in my search as I support you in yours. Thank you.



  37.  #37alias girl on June 10, 2009 at 12:51 am

    i feel supportive of your quest jason. it’s like pua community is flip side of the magic world of rori/siren island.

    i was former doormat – female version. Now i am overthetop goddess. 🙂



  38.  #38Daria on June 10, 2009 at 1:00 am

    Ok so remember how the guy in New York was unavailable? And he mentioned his “girl” when I got stuck and it looked like I might spend the night at his house… he was worried his mom might tell his “girl”… “well she’s not really my girl right now but she’s my very good friend and she comes over a lot and her and my mom are close…”

    well ok that was in New York…

    And it reminded me of a guy here who calls me a lot that I feel comfy friend like energy with and also attraction like the new york guy who also brings up his ex (baby’s mom) and was worried his mom would tell on him…

    well out the blue this guy just contacted me right now… (he wants to have sex with me but also likes me)…

    So i noticed on his new online page he is now in a relationship and has pictures up of his baby’s mom… so i guess they are back together…

    Well he’s writing me messages about how he wants to give me a massage and etc… I feel amused writing this…
    So i notice I feel weird like I feel very evily good that he is trying to get with me even though he has a woman, and I also feel icky and angry tense in my tummy shoulders and arm thinking that I’m second best and starting to feel bad like men only want me on the side or something…

    So i didn’t know what to do because rockstarish and all that…

    so i wrote him back very bravely:

    i feel mad… i mean i feel good your’re trying to get at me and all that…
    and im feeling confused… i feel bad i see your baby’s mom pictures on your page… and i feel weird and kinda angry…

    so this was a big deal to say because part of me wanted to say

    kinda mean arrogant stuff, and another part wanted to say friendly stuff…

    and now i feel tense and kinda excited i think he wrote me back lets see what he says…

    PS this shows I am making progress with the unavailable guys… even though I’m attracted to them I am speaking up more and more… notice that?



  39.  #39Daria on June 10, 2009 at 1:04 am

    I got something like this:

    fuck her she doesn’t matter to me more than you do for real

    hehe I feel very shaky flattered and tense… this is semi crumby and i feel worried of being judged for feeling good about this… and yes i feel good about this… i feel all triumphant and tall and smiling omg so big…
    whew

    wow
    i feel like waves of tension and excitement go through me and like stretch me up and then strethc out my mouth into a smile and then it kinda giggles and crashes…

    I feel good…

    i feel giggly …

    it feels tense in my arm and it feels good good good

    yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
    im the best

    ok this feels concerning because its not a competition and all that…

    whewfew

    i am having pretty good success with this truth and Goddess thing



  40.  #40Ryan Eliason on June 10, 2009 at 1:09 am

    I like this post Rori. As a man I can tell you that it makes a lot of sense. This approach from a woman would make me be more clear about what I want. I’d be less likely to hang out in ambiguity.



  41.  #41Daria on June 10, 2009 at 1:12 am

    I totally think the PUA guys are recovering nerds. Not that that’s all that bad because once recovered having been a nerd at one time can become an asset.

    I know a bunch of guys that are natural women attractors and “players” and they are something more like jerks lol but they are some of my best friends.

    Yay for everyone.

    I feel scared sexperimenting is going to feel not as exciting as I want it to… grr…

    I want it to feel exciting. Thank you angels… oh yeah and really good and pleasurable… physically and emotionally and more… thank you!!!



  42.  #42alias girl on June 10, 2009 at 1:49 am

    so everytime you mention your EX, daria. (caps bc i know he’s the main superman guy 4 u). but i feel triggered and reminded of my ex with babys mama and is super unavailable. man. and he alwasy says he’s not married to her and is just his baby’s mama (eh hem whom he lives with) and then used to say lets go get married.

    i feel so conflicted bc i understand him i know where it comes from i just understand him and he’s slightly thug. and well so many things really that seem to be a dont go there alias girl.

    i feel so conflicted. anyhoo the reason i felt triggered is bc whatever a guy says about his ex or his current is probably same vocab he will use to describe me one day. so i don’t want a man of MINE in bed with another woman telling her i am nothing to him.

    so i don’t choose my ex. my EX. I tell him often we are not real. don’t you think, i say. i mean it’s not based on anything real.

    i don’t believe that as i just wrote it though. ugh. i feel a little ill.

    anyway i rarely talk to this EX. very very rarely see him and just keep trying to make it so he doesn’t come around anymore. bc i have tried to end it with him and anytime i do i feel panicked. seriously. like i don’t want to be disconnected from him. so i just keep trying to try different tacticts to make him go for good. i feel sad about that. i tell him what am i going to do when i settle down with someone? i won’t be able to keep in contact with him anymore. etc. i am trying to set up my future without him. ease us both into it i guess. i feel like i could cry. i feel sad. i feel really sad. i don’t want to lose him. but have to if i a. committed to someone else.



  43.  #43alias girl on June 10, 2009 at 1:54 am

    i feel very pleased and happy now that with all these online guys therels not that weird tension in my body anymore. even when it takes a downturn and i have to say challenging feeling messages like i feel awful being accused of calling someone a liar. i feel defensive and ick. i feel not good being begged. i feel not good.

    and when i was done i noticed i did not feel all tense inside about it. i was just checking in with how i felt and trying to choose my words.

    i feel really nice and good.



  44.  #44alias girl on June 10, 2009 at 1:56 am

    congrats daria on your truth telling though. that is pretty rockstarry indeed. esp when dealing with a superman.



  45.  #45Tracy on June 10, 2009 at 3:35 am

    Jason,
    It feels great to listen to a male point of view and i feel happy u made a comment about the conscious/Unconscious expectations that we women keep to ourselves when engaging in casual sex…..men too i guess but that’s a different story.
    I have had a variation of expectations when it came to intimacy with my man but i did not fully understand them.Sometimes it feels like a need just to have the man with me,sometimes it feels like a need for commitment and sometimes it feels like a need to explore the unknown and discover other bits of me…
    I am learning to discover my feelings and identify the reason behind them but the most important thing for me right now is to identify all my expectations both conscious and unconscious and express them authentically with the guy…..I have not been honest with myself and with him i guess out of the fear that i would rock the boat as well as the fact that though i felt i should be honest,i was not strong enough inside to be able to express myself fully without casting blame….
    It is one thing to know what to say,but even more real to say it because you believe and feel that way….not because its what must be said…
    I now understand why we need to be true to our feelings and speak them as honestly as we can at all times…I feel stronger now and i feel more encouraged to always speak my truth especially when it comes to my sexuality and how it relates to commitment….
    I would love a relationship where i can feel more honest with the man and feel a sense of commitment from him…that for me would feel safe and exciting…May be not a ring right away as i feel more comfortable to be able to give the relationship time to grow as we get to know each other….But a feeling of commitment from him would definitely make me feel great.

    Daria,
    Thanks for posting your experience as i have seen so much of my current situation projected on your postings and i can see more clearly what i need to work on and what i need to improve….



  46.  #46Linda G on June 10, 2009 at 7:50 am

    I feel uncomfortable about a man who can so easily disengage from the mother of his child. It’s too casual for me and speaks of immaturity, even to get into that place.
    If a guy still posts her picture on his page, perhaps he is not being completely truthful with either of you.



  47.  #47Linmayu on June 10, 2009 at 9:18 am

    Aww Jason, I feel all warm and fuzzy reading your comment. 🙂



  48.  #48Jason on June 10, 2009 at 9:41 am

    Thanks, Linmayu.

    I want to make one more point about the whole discussion. The key to the realization of what you want in life is, as the Bard said,

    This above all: to thine own self be true,
    And it must follow, as the night the day,
    Thou canst not then be false to any man.

    This is the challenge of standing firm on who you are and what you want. It’s the painful growth path, but any other path leads to bitter disappointment. Not everyone chooses this path. If you’re on it, and I suspect if you’re reading this you are, then you must take care to only pair up with others who share this path. Do not invest your emotions heavily with someone who is not on this path.

    This is why chaos ensues at the bar when a bunch of people who are governed only by their impulses and emotions start interacting. Then add alcohol. Some men pick up some women. Some of the guys “get lucky”. And when the sun comes up, nobody is truly satisfied. This wouldn’t happen if people were aware of who they are, what they want AND committed to their own personal truth.



  49.  #49Robin on June 10, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Jason,

    Thank you so much for your wonderful words. It feels great to have a male perspective, feels very refreshing.

    I feel totally energized by the topic of feminism. Circular dating has given me the feeling that this thing with guys expecting a woman to ‘row the boat’, and just naturally be more in their feminine energy is a generational trait that stems from the feminist movement; it started off great, gave women many great opportunities, but went way off track when it was applied to relationships with men.



  50.  #50Daria on June 10, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Hey Alias Girl thanks for looking out for me.

    That one guy that was a big deal to me, I haven’t talked to him neither is he talking to me. I heard from a mutual friend that he said we’re not talking because uhm… kinda because I havent’ called him excpet when it was about the moeny he owes me. Anyways I’ve moved on from him which is why my life is feeling better. It feels weird not to worry or drag on him hehe… he’ll probably be back too, who knows, talking about how he no longer wants his baby mama.

    This guy that I said the feeling message too is a guy I am sorta dating sort of friends with and he’s pretty cool. He wants to sexperiment with me lol but he also likes me and likes my friendship too.

    Linda G thanks for the comment. Im not trying to jump in here with my eyes closed just because he said that one time. I DO realize that this girl’s picture is all over his page…

    I told him it felt good to hear his message even though I don’t feel 100% trusting

    I am practicing expressing myself about other women, first with NY guy and now with this guy, so this is a great expression opportunity because in the past with superman ex i would have major trouble expressing on this.



  51.  #51Rori Raye on June 10, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Thank you, Ryan…it’s incredibly helpful to hear from a man about how you really think, what you really want…Rori



  52.  #52Rori Raye on June 10, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Rachel, Welcome – and – this is the point: It’s not ABOUT HIM. Your dating other men is about YOU – keeping your sanity, practicing the Tools, keeping your options open. It doesn’t matter what he knows or what he thinks, until the discussion gets started – by HIM! Love, Rori (If you’ve already agreed to exclusivity, then you need to have a conversation – if not, if he’s just ASSUMING – well, we all know where that gets you – nowhere.)



  53.  #53DocK on June 10, 2009 at 11:34 am

    The bar scene, yes, alcohol, flirting, dancing…sex, sexuality, romance, passion…some of us actually DO get the “sex talk” and some of us have to just figure it all out as we go.

    In either case, the problem is that we may give sex education about “protection” and preventing pregnancy and STDs – we may learn the mechanics/technique. What we don’t give sex education on (a young man said this to his mother) is lovemaking. There is a difference.

    I also feel that there is an emotional responsibility in sex. I know, I know, we have to take responsibility for what we do and “if the reasons we had sex are not good enough for us – that is OUR responsibility” hence, if a woman has sex thinking it MEANS something (movement into a relationship, a subsequent phone call, date, whatever) and that is all in her own mind, she cannot “blame” the guy – I get that. BUT I feel that we should be learning and teaching our young people that there is something to be gained by at least trying to find out what it means to the other person when you both make a decision to go down that path. Of course, usually doesn’t happen.

    As for men’s feelings – I know that when I was much younger and it came to sex, I just assumed that if a guy was “getting some” that was all that he cared about. I didn’t think about his feelings either or talk about what it meant. Surprisingly, I learned that some guys also thought that having sex meant movement into a relationship and were very hurt when that wasn’t what I wanted. I guess those rare times when a guy actually felt “used” – and I felt bad. I realized, ‘wow, men have feelings and sometimes want something deeper.’

    After that, I knew I had to be clear about what I was looking for as well. Sometimes fun and games turned into an actual long-term relationship, sometimes it didn’t.

    Jason, is right about finding someone on a path you are on – and that path can change depending on what you are looking for (e.g. no strings attached sex vs commitment). If a guy says/acts as though he is just looking for sex, I know to believe him and not think I can change him. What I worry about are the guys out there that are learning “techniques” to get a woman into bed and are doing that by out and out lying and telling a woman they are looking for something real when that is not the case. I have enough difficulty as it is with trust issues without having to feel my way through that.



  54.  #54Linda G on June 10, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Daria; I hope I didn’t come off too cold or self righteous. I am feeling miserable today.
    I got into my car before, put in Targeting Mr Right and realized what keeps happening for me. I keep shutting down when I’m on dates with guys and I feel bored or realize I am not interested. I wish I could tell my truth as you have learned.
    Then maybe I would have more than one date with a guy…I feel frustrated.



  55.  #55Linda G on June 10, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Sometimes I find myself in a conversation about exclusivity on the first date! Guys who say they only date one girl at a time. Then what?



  56.  #56alias girl on June 10, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    aaahhhhhhh i feel overwhelmed! this blog feels unwielding. i can’t keep up! it feels like a big PARTY! and that feels good. but i feel overwhelmed trying to keep. aaaaahhhhhhhh. i surrender.

    i feel bad i can’t keep up.



  57.  #57Daria on June 10, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Aww Linda G hugs! I felt more like you came off concerned. I hug the part of you (and ME) that feels cold and self righteous.

    Guys who want exclusivity right away… they get the no girlfriend speech in a nice way… then it’s up to them… usually they continue to want to see me especially if I say clearly that I’m lookig to be married and don’t want to be exclusive until that is on the table etc…

    If they don’t pursue, well we can’t make them… hehe… that means they usually have past issues

    I have a hard time with the not interested speeches too. I just practiced last nite telling a guy I dated for a long time (but never kissed) that I don’t feel attracted to him.

    I said…

    mm I don’t really feel attracted to you that way right now…
    AGH… I feel really really awkward talking about this!

    I feel glad we can talk about it though

    then he said don’t worry

    Today he messaged me again so I guess he survived hehe. More open more good feelings. Sometimes I try to detach the feeling from his situation and just speak the feeling as it is without worrying if it will hurt him.

    Ex… I feel kinda pushed away and kinda icky…

    I dono…

    still lots more to practice with guys im not interested in and the ones I AM interested in…

    I feel so glad this is opening up for me

    PS the guy from NY has messaged me, called me, he likes me and misses me and had so much fun with me.. hheheeeeee!

    yes… i feel so thrilly good in my sides



  58.  #58Daria on June 10, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    hehe Alias girl that was so cute! I feel good! Big party yay!! pass the corona with lime!



  59.  #59Linda G on June 10, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Daria and Alias Girl I really enjoy both of you.
    It does feel like a party, which is what our lives should always feel like! Fun adventure and surprises!



  60.  #60Linda G on June 10, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Oh and of course everyone else, too. Cheers!



  61.  #61alias girl on June 10, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    yae party! i feel a little intimidated it is so big with so many convos going on! i feel overwhelmed!

    i feel excited about your circular dating adventures daria (and linda g) and everyone! i feel worried alittle sometimes but then not really bc i feel we know how to take care of ourselves and are just experimenting and having fun being goddesse.

    i second what daria says linda g. guys who want exclusivity before they even know you are just lacking confidence in themselves. they just want to knock out the competition while they give themselves time to decide if they want you. otherwise they would be offering you marraige right up front. and they’re not.

    they could decide in 3 months 6 months 3yrs that they don’t actually want to choose you and so why were you exclusive that whole time when you could have been dating and being open to the guy who did want to claim you. i second daria’s solution. and the guy will huff and puff because he feels insecure. and some guys may leave because they can’t take the competiton. probably not great catches anyway. men are built for competition and chasing and winning.



  62.  #62Linda G on June 10, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    I have talked to guys who right off, even before we meet say they are not into serial dating and don’t want a woman who is dating around, she just wants a free dinner.
    And when I said I am taking my time, deciding who is right for me and learning what I want, they get all, forget it.
    That was when I first started this whole process. But still, I get that.



  63.  #63Erika on June 10, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    If anyone is interested in seeing how Jason woos a woman, we’ve republished our conversation here:

    http://awakeningfromthedream.blogspot.com/2009/06/transparency-and-accountability.html



  64.  #64Linda G on June 10, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    I had a feeling these guys showing up here on this blog were Erika’s. I am not sure I feel comfortable with this, but then it’s my issue to read or not.



  65.  #65Linda on June 10, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    I have enjoyed everyones posts. It is indeed interesting to read what the Jason and Eric have written.

    It hs long been my conviction that we (male and female) are not different. We want the same thing. The connection we desire it the same. Knowing ourselves, what we want, need, desire (with boundaries) are all imperative and pave the road to us finding a the satisfying healthy relationship we all want.. I liked what Jason said about us find the one that we want to create a spiritual alliance with…Love those words. This is truely what I want with a man.

    I would say my circular dating has proven challanging but good for me. I am a one man kind of woman but have stretched my comfort zone (so to speak) and have been seeing as many as 5 men at a time. I know what I am looking for and need in my life.I am simply not finding it…. I have decided to be intimate with a couple (not at the same time). I can not say that I feel guilty for the encounters,(in the past I would have) but will say that my experiementing with it has confirmed to me who I am and how I am wired. Letting myself do this has shown me clearly what I dont want. I made no demands, or thought that it would gain me favor or ground with the men. I was with them simply because flowed in the moment and I wanted to. This short experiementation has helped me know myself better and helped me set my boundries.

    It is high time we all find what we are looking for.

    Linda



  66.  #66Erika on June 10, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    Thanks for being honest, Linda. I am super curious and would love for you to elaborate on your discomfort if that feels like something you’d be comfortable doing …



  67.  #67Jason (not Jason Savage) on June 10, 2009 at 8:13 pm

    By the way, I’m Jason Miller, not the Jason Savage that Erika knows. But I do follow Erika’s blog. Jason Savage only made the one post. The rest are mine. Nice to have met you all.



  68.  #68DocK on June 11, 2009 at 7:42 am

    Hi Erika

    I can’t comment for Linda but I can speak for myself regarding the discomfort.

    I loved reading what Jason has had to say – VERY articulate, well-spoken, thought out – great flow. I found myself feeling like I was nodding YES to what he has said (and I DO agree with it STILL). Here is the “yeah but” going to the site and reading his blog – I felt discomfort with the “exclusive but not sexually monogamous” stance. To each his own – really and truly – but from reading the comments here day in a day out – I believe that when it comes to an exclusive relationship – most of the women her (myself included) believe that to be exclusive also sexually.

    If I am in “play” mode – fine – I accept my sexual freedom and my partner’s as well. When I am in relationship mode and “in love” I expect sexual exclusivity as well. Again, everyone gets to CHOOSE. It is just that, reading his posts, I felt like he was speaking of the whole enchilda (love, relationship, exclusivity, monogamy) but is speaking of it differently. And that’s OK. Again, I just think that most women here, while some feeling free to “experiment” sexually until exclusive – I don’t hear many saying they don’t want that to include sexual exclusivity.



  69.  #69Linda G on June 11, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    The source of my discomfort lies in the posts by these guys. The words feel coached. Being directed to Erika’s blog and listening in on their conversations; I sense an agenda and that makes me feel manipulated.



  70.  #70Jason on June 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Hey, all, I’m not Jason Savage, I’m Jason Miller. Jason Savage only posted the one comment earlier. I’m the one who posted the rest. And while I have a personal coach, but these comments were not “coached” in any way. It’s all based on what I have learned over time and what I personally believe. And I only know Erika from reading her blog. I’ve never met her.



  71.  #71DocK on June 11, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Aha!! No wonder I felt so confused!! : )



  72.  #72alias girl on June 11, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    i feel good reading all perspectives. i feel like i am being coached by rori. we are all interconnected in my opinion. evolving together. we learn from each other and adopt what we like.

    i don’t want to be antagonistic or invalidating linda g. i completely hear what you are saying and felt a slight discomfort so i feel grateful when someone brings something up for discussion.

    but i often feel discomfort with people (practicall everyone) who holds a different opinion or way of living their life. i feel threatened sometimes. i feel grateful for this discomfort. i would feel very BORED without it.



  73.  #73Rori Raye on June 11, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Jason – how totally amazing that we have two great men here both named Jason. If you like – you could simply go as Jason M. – I’ll look for any new posts with new names so I can dig them out of the spam filter faster…and because I can see the email addresses, I do know which one you are, and I so love your posts…please keep them coming – Sincerely, Rori



  74.  #74JasonSavage on June 11, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    “The source of my discomfort lies in the posts by these guys. The words feel coached. Being directed to Erika’s blog and listening in on their conversations; I sense an agenda and that makes me feel manipulated.”

    I cannot speak for anyone else, but my word are only coached by my heart. For me, the key is not in “having no agenda” but in having no HIDDEN agenda. I have a very clear sensate idea of what my future looks like and what my future relationships look like. I’m putting this out there with openess, honesty, and vulnerability. I’m relentlessly pursuing this without any clue as to how it will all unravel.

    If you FEEL discomfort and FEEL manipulated you are probably being blocked by past experiences with men who were not authentic, clear in their intent, and surrendered to the moment. The only way to live true to yourself if to live in complete openness. Find the courage to go there first, and then you’ll find men do the same. Trust the process.

    Jason Savage



  75.  #75Erika on June 11, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    That’s hilarious — even I was confused about the two Jasons …

    I’m with JasonSavage, it’s my intention to reveal any “agendas” that I have so that people can feel at ease.



  76.  #76JasonSavage on June 12, 2009 at 12:32 am

    “I’m with JasonSavage”

    …I’m sorry, I didn’t notice if there was more after this.

    😉



  77.  #77cookie on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    So I’m feeling completely off right now around this whole issue. I’m feeling insecure about the future and unsure how to approach this unsettled feeling that my guy is seeing other women. I don’t want to look for clues or dust for finger prints this time. I don’t want a man that will sneak behind my back after all this time. I feel angry that he has not risen to the occasion. I can’t help but wonder if he is seeing other women on the saturdays when n fridays when he doesn’t call me. Or when he mentions



  78.  #78cookie on June 13, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    The latest movie n doesn’t make a plan for us to go. Or how he’s shifted from saying we should live together to complainin how I have too much stuff at his house. When I read about daria’s guy in ny I wanted to ask her what his name was cause it sounded like my guy. I don’t know what to do



  79.  #79cookie on June 13, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    When he doesn’t have sex with me is he sleepin w someone else? When the phone rings and he checks the caller id who is it? I’m feelin sick to my stomach. If after 7 plus years if we were like mercedes n her guy then I would b ok about where we r now but I feel so far away from him sometimes n I feel like one day soon he just will stop callin altogether. Then I will alone, that feels lonely, I don’t want to b alone. Goddammit, shit, fuck. I’m sorry but I had to curse, I feel so fucking mad



  80.  #80Ann on June 13, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    Cookie I can feel your pain. I feel sad you’re hurting. I don’t know what to say…I wish I was there to give you a hug but I can send you a “CYBERHUG”. I want you to know I hear you I hope writing helps you get some of the pain out.



  81.  #81Daria on June 14, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    Hi Cookie… the NY guy I dated was only 20 years old so I doubt it was your guy… phew… now that would have felt awfully triggering

    Cookie how about circular dating Without dropping your guy… that’s how circular dating works anyways…



  82.  #82Ken on June 22, 2009 at 10:03 am

    I’ve been reading much of Rori’s blog and while many things have felt very important for me to understand, I have a hard time with this continuous circular dating approach.

    I certainly understand the strategic importance of it for females who want to get married and that is their goal.

    Perhaps this will surprise you but there are men out there (like myself) who do not participate in multiple dating with women AND who don’t like women who do it either.

    My approach has been to let anyone I date know that my goal is to get into a long term relationship and that can mean any form of it including marriage. I also spell out that I expect a woman who has a similar goal to not multiple date either while we get to know one another.

    What’s good for the gander is also good for the goose.

    If a woman ever told me she was multiple dating and was going to continue it, that would be the end of the date and I walk away letting her know it’s forever.

    Some of the concepts I live by maybe passe in today’s world but are ones that feel right for me. My word is my bond. Integrity is paramount. Truth is not only the best policy, it is required! (except when asked “do I look fat in this?)”. If you can’t stand the answer, don’t ask the question. The grass isn’t always greener. Trust must be earned. No means No. I don’t want to pollinate the entire garden, one good flower is enough for me. Do what is right. Live with an open heart and mind.

    Ken



  83.  #83Rori Raye on June 23, 2009 at 9:44 am

    Ken, welcome, and I have to say this straight out – unless you surprise me and are speaking from personal success with your fantastic marriage – your attitude stinks and will get you nowhere.

    Here’s the deal. You, as a man, are rigid in a way that speaks of a lack of personal authority and self-confidence. Your assumption is that in order to “get to know’ each other, you must be “exclusive.” (Keep in mind I do not recommend sleeping with multiple partners, only coffee, lunch, movies, walking, talking…) The point is that you, as a man, hold the marriage ring. You are the one who has to ask a woman to marry you. (You may disagree, but if what you want is a woman to propose to you and give you a ring – you’re on the wrong blog…and I don’t think you are.) Therefore, to expect a woman to become exclusive with you while YOU decide whether or not to propose puts the woman into an impossible situation in which her only option is to go crazy. We women get weird in this situation. We get needy, and clingy, and scared – and (as I’m sure you’ve discovered) we scare you away.

    Your best plan is to “man up.” This is not a “tit-for-tat’ “goose and gander” kind of thing. This is you, as a man, pursuing the woman of your dreams. It is your job to win her. If you are not winning a woman, it is because of this attitude you have. I suggest you go visit some of the more enlightened men’s sites – JasonSavage who posts here has one, and I’m sure he’ll send you to some.

    By walking a way from a woman who loves herself enough to keep her options open while you make your decision about her – you are walking away from the best women. You are defaulting. You are refusing to compete. This comes off as panty-waist, though it sounds good and forceful on paper. In psychological, human terms, it comes off as non-resilient and lacking confidence. I’d love to continue this discussion with you…and hope that you’ll stand firm with personal confidence and yet open up to these new ideas as we women get testy with you…this will be good practice for you, I know it. Sincerely, Rori



  84.  #84Jason Miller on June 23, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Ken,

    I used to think like you. Unlike you, I never demanded openly that a woman and I go exclusive immediately, but I sure wanted that to happen. I wanted to lock her into a relationship because I didn’t feel she’d stay with me any other way. Today I would assume that I went about trying to get exclusivity in a covert, needy and manipulative way. This strategy is as much of a statement of who you are as the woman is who will accept your narrow parameters.

    Rori’s being harsh with you not because she thinks you’re a jerk, but because she’s asserting you’re letting the women in your life down. You’re not giving them the same freedom and flexibility you should be giving YOURSELF! YOU should be dating and getting to know many women at the same time in order to keep YOUR options open until YOU find a strong natural bond forming with one woman in particular. It should be obvious to you who to choose to be exclusive with only AFTER you have screened her to see if she will meet YOUR relationship needs. She needs to win you over too IN A DEEP, MEANINGFUL WAY, not just because you’re attracted to her.

    I am saying that what’s good for the goose is also good for the gander when it comes to Rori’s advice. You should regard yourself highly enough to be able to get to know many women at once while exercising your masculine power in a healthy, responsible manner by being honest and not manipulating women in any way.

    This is one aspect of what men need to reclaim in modern society. Since we are often frustrated and confused as to how to actually obtain a great monogamous relationship with a woman, we resort to solving this problem with the ego. The ego is all about force and control for the purpose of avoiding fear. You are attempting to control the woman by insisting on exclusivity way before a deep connection is established. Maybe you are afraid of what women think of you. Maybe you believe that there are only a small handful that will like you once they get to know you. By having those beliefs, you are abdicating your natural masculine traits and abilities that you need to get the healthy, satisfying relationship you want.

    I don’t know what that stuff looks like for you, Ken, but I encourage you to find your own path. I can only say that for me, it represents my small piece of this larger societal and generational shift in awareness leading to new and better relationships between women and men. It is a tough thing to learn/unlearn, but we’re all here for a reason.

    I too say, “man up”. Set your mission. Stay on course. Take your lumps. And especially in your case, learn from the bad experiences by trying things that are out of your comfort zone. You could start by racking up a bunch of coffee dates with a bunch of different women just to see what happens. Your objective would be just to screen them in a gentle, playful way. There is no faster way to learn and grow than doing the thing you least want to do.

    Best of luck.



  85.  #85Ken on June 23, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    I’m sorry if I offended you with my “panty-waist” attitude, that was not my intent.

    My intent was to simply state the concept that is based on equality of both partners who both have the same goal.

    It’s clear to me that you want to “stack the deck” in favor of the woman who feels she must get married to have a relationship/life with a man.

    I agree that following the concept of multiple dating is a brilliant strategy that forces men who are afraid of commitment into making a choice sooner than later.

    But what about the man who has no fear of commitment and is ready to make a commitment when he finds the “one” ? Yes, I exist and so do others.

    I do not think it is my job to “win” anyone. I think it is my job to be the best person I can be and to be true to myself and others.

    I know women who feel they have to have many men around them. It makes them feel good and powerful in many ways.

    What happens then when you go from being accustomed to having many suitors and enjoying that “power & controlling trip”, to being in a marriage with just one man? Somewhat of a letdown I would think.

    There are many women today who do not want to get married for a variety of reasons, I know quite a few. Personally, I can accept an LTR with or without marriage.

    I think that your premise that a woman can not ask a man to marry and that the man holds all the power with a ring is flawed. I have indeed been asked and I have no problem with that but I also have asked and have no problem with that either.

    Your choice of words like “Man-up” is just trying to get a rise that I will not give you. I have every confidence in being a man that I like. I’m sorry you’re so touchy about my opinion of your concept.

    If you feel that equality of partners is a wrongheaded notion I’d like to know why, unless you feel that the collective “you” is superior to us poor men.

    I’m really not hear to argue with you or anyone else, but I call ’em as I see ’em. This circular dating thing seems very “controlling” to me. I understand it’s good to practice what you learn but there’s no good reason, in my opinion, that it can’t be serially instead of concurrently. It’s a matter of respect for the other person to treat them as you would want to be treated.

    The golden rule is perhaps one of strongest things I believe in. Playing games and schemes to gain the upper hand is not in my vocabulary and it won’t be in the woman I would want to spend the rest of my life with.

    This is all from my heart and not just some exercise. I’m sorry if we disagree but I really can agree to disagree. I tell my truth always.

    Respectfully,

    Ken



  86.  #86Jason Miller on June 23, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Ken,

    If you are completely happy with your strategy and you are getting the results you want, then I support you. If you are not, then I would encourage you to try something different. You haven’t explicitly stated how this strategy has worked for you, so we assumed correctly or incorrectly that it hasn’t.

    If you have been running frustrated over a long period of time, I would encourage you to rethink your strategy as I stated before. I offer this under the assumption that you’re going through something that I myself have gone through. If that is wrong, I apologize. Projection is a severe side effect of text communication.



  87.  #87Rori Raye on June 23, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Wow, jasonMiller, this is fabulous, thank you. Rori



  88.  #88Ann on June 23, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Jason Miller,

    If you’ve read anything I’ve written on other post you know I’m at a place in my life where I want to see men “man up”. I don’t mean those words in a disrespectful manner to any man. I feel you truly get those words and that feels good to read. Thank you.



  89.  #89Jason Miller on June 23, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    The expression “man up” begs the question: What is the female counterpart to manning up? Is there a “woman up”?



  90.  #90Ann on June 23, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    I feel there is Jason. As women how do we woman up? I feel we need to learn to communicate with men in a way they’ll hear. I feel as a woman it would benefit me to learn how to “hear” what a man is saying. I feel like I want to be my best authenic self. I want to understand so I seek to understand.

    When a woman speaks from her heart and tells a man what she really wants(when she figure it out herself) then leans back and let the man decide if he wants to be that man. Maybe then men will feel safe enough to communicate what they want.

    What do you think?



  91.  #91Jason Miller on June 23, 2009 at 6:48 pm

    Ann, I’m not entirely sure your definition of “woman up” is distinctly feminine. There are male equivalents to deciding what he wants and then just putting it out there to see which women notice. For me a woman would be “womanning up” if she made my masculine side feel welcome. She needs to make it clear she appreciates me and is forgiving when I make mistakes. She also needs to not be afraid to tell me what her emotions and feelings are at any given time. We appreciate positive reminders of what you need from us when you are emotional in case we forget. Is that making any sense? I’m finding it hard to put into words.



  92.  #92Ann on June 23, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Jason,

    I appreciate you having this conversation with me. You’re helping me with one of the reasons I’m here. I want to learn how to say what I’m saying in a way a man can “get”. Believe me I understand what you’re saying when you say: “I’m finding it hard to put into words.”

    If I can communicate in a way a man can feel safe, then I feel he will feel comfortable, feel welcome to speak the way he needs to. I feel when I have my vibe right I will be able to speak from my heart in a way that doesn’t threaten a man or make him want to withdraw.

    For ex.(I can speak this way at the moment because I’m calm and not upset) If I was REALLY angry at my man for whatever reason, say I’m sick and tired of picking up after him. I could yell and scream, tell him he’s no good for anything. He can’t even pick up after hisself grow up! Have alot of drama, that’s connected to alot of things.

    Or I could say(calmly but firmly):I feel irritated to be picking up again. It would feel so good to have help with this. Then I’d hope he’d help me. If he didn’t I’d either continue to pick up or leave the room to deal with my anger.

    I feel for me to woman up means learning to be my best me for me first but the by product would be I’d bring more to ALL my relationships. I’d be more trusting, respectful, caring, loving, accepting. appreciative to myself and others.

    I REALLY do appreciate you sharing with us from a man’s point of view. I feel a man is the best expert on a man. Don’t get me wrong Rori is teaching me how to be a better me but men will help me know how to understand them better.

    Does that make sense? I’m enjoying(as I’m sure others are) this conversation.



  93.  #93Ann on June 23, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    I will be away from the computer for a few days. Look forward to reading from mobile.



  94.  #94Jason Miller on June 23, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    Hi, Ann,

    This thread keeps going. I think where I’m not getting it has to do with your definition. When I read what you wrote it could almost apply to a man as well as a woman. It seems a bit universal. Is there something specific to women? What are the distinctions and differences between manning up and womanning up?



  95.  #95tinque on June 24, 2009 at 10:05 am

    I’ve been following the last part of this thread with interest. My question is what is it to man up? I didn’t get it when Rori first wrote it, and I don’t understand as you, Jason M and Ann continue this discussion.
    To woman up is just as unclear.
    I can tell you what it means to me to BE a woman, the kind of woman I work on being all the time, to be me, my best me as a woman. Womanning up? Not sure at all.
    Help?



  96.  #96DocK on June 24, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Welcome back JasonM. Didn’t intend to confuse you with JasonS as I did in the past. Nothing against JasonS, BTW.

    Posted something on this earlier but didn’t go through.

    I don’t know if “man up” has equivalent like “woman up.”

    Sort of like “womanizer” for a man that screws around but “slut” for a woman that does the same. Similar action, very different feeling behind each label.

    I feel like I have done “man up” recently by standing my ground on having my needs met in the way that I have to in a relationship and holding true to my boundaries. Now he has to “man up” if he wants me – and I’m not sure he is willing to put forth that effort. That hurts but I can accept it and continue to do the internal work necessary to be a good partner to someone.